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frogy27 wrote:
text removed.
You really do need to make more of an effort with regards to spelling and the like. The patience of the moderation team is finite.

Reds8n

I'm sorry but this is pretty funny

I've ordered the book, I'm loving the look of the new Pathfinders, but not a fan of the rest, so I finally get the chance to get sme FW Suits

Rules wise, I'm just hoping I can make a decent list by taking a lot of Crisis Suits supported by FWs and a couple of tanks, Kroot were great in the last book and that made a lot of armies use them as "bubblewrap" and whilst that is a valid tactic and armies have used Cannon Fodder irl I'm not a big fan of seeing units used that way.

All in all buzzing for the release though.

People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

 Melissia wrote:
People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

Backfire wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Also, how is BS3 that huge of a deal that people consider it army-breaking? Markerlights certainly make Tau shooting more reliable and are intended for some obvious synergy, but I'm not convinced that Tau are going to be uber-fail without them.

It's because the old Codices gave us a choice of either building self-sufficient, but less shooty force, or very shooty but Markerlight-dependent force, or some combination thereof. Now, because everything is BS3 and Tau vehicles are nerfed, Markerlights are essentially necessary. For some reason, some people seem to think that this forced "synergy" is an improvement over previous state of affairs.

We are being force-fed Markerlights like we were French goose fattened up for foie gras. That's what irks people (eg. me).

Exactly. Instead of a proper 6th edition update we have Codex:Markerlights.

Backfire wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

No, they're Tau. They should have BS2 really.

Backfire wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

They aren't Marines or Dark Eldar either

BS 3 is the game's average BS (Marine codex spam notwithstanding). It's fine.

If i recall right weren't they BS 3 last codex too? It's not like they were BS 5 and got dropped to 3

 Melissia wrote:
*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Except Orks and IG are supposed to be hordes of weak units that compensate for their low quality by bringing obscene numbers of inaccurate guns and drowning the enemy in bodies. Fluff-wise they're the barely-trained conscripts given a flashlight and a t-shirt and sent to die, or the rioting soccer fans that care more about making a lot of noise shooting everywhere than actually hitting anything. Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers. But somehow even our elite battlesuit pilots, veterans of years of combat before they even get to be considered for a promotion to that position, are no better than basic guardsmen.

Until they have markerlights, of course, at which point they get to be BS 5 and ignore cover. It's just too bad if you don't want to spend 25% of your points on Pathfinders.

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers.

So, basically like the Imperial guard.

Actually soldiers of the Imperial Guard probably have more training and experience than the Tau do simply as a matter of humans having longer lives.

 Melissia wrote:
No, they're Tau. They should have BS2 really.

Sorry, but that's just insane. Fluff-wise it makes no sense, if you hate the Tau and want them out of the game just admit it instead of trying to suggest absurd things like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers.

So, basically like the Imperial guard.

If the Imperial Guard actually cared about its troops instead of just throwing them into pointless wars of attrition where 90% of the unit is nothing more than meatshields for the "lucky" few who get issued the special/heavy weapons.

And for the record, I'm fine with basic fire warriors being BS 3. But it's just stupid for elite battlesuit pilots and vehicles to be limited to BS 3.

 Peregrine wrote:
If the Imperial Guard actually cared about its troops instead of just throwing them into pointless wars of attrition where 90% of the unit is nothing more than meatshields for the "lucky" few who get issued the special/heavy weapons.

Which they don't, barring a few exceptions which are notable simply for their rarity, E.G. Chenkov.

Tau have inferior biologies for shooting. It's in the lore. Were it not for their superior technology they'd be BS2 standard.

 Melissia wrote:
Which they don't, barring a few exceptions which are notable simply for their rarity, E.G. Chenkov.

Hardly. Chenkov is just the most blatant about it, and one of the few to do stuff like clearing minefields by marching his troops through them. IG in general are still explicitly an attrition army, and the few regiments that aren't (Elysians for example) are deliberate exceptions to the rule.

Tau have inferior biologies for shooting. It's in the lore.

You mean the "lore" that is explicitly in-universe Imperial propaganda?

 Ascalam wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

They aren't Marines or Dark Eldar either

BS 3 is the game's average BS (Marine codex spam notwithstanding). It's fine.

If i recall right weren't they BS 3 last codex too? It's not like they were BS 5 and got dropped to 3

Yes they were BS3. And they had things like Targeting Arrays, Multi-Trackers, Target Locks and Markerlights to compensate for it. Now, for whatever bizarre reason, Vetock seems to have thought that all of those are unnecessary except for Markerlights, which have been promoted to core mechanic of the army.

But not everyone wanted to play Tau that way. It's like if you completely nerfed Carnifexes from the Tyranid Codex, and made Tervigons as core unit of your army, that's totally preposterous right?

No, wait...

Backfire wrote:

Yes they were BS3. And they had things like Targeting Arrays, Multi-Trackers, Target Locks and Markerlights to compensate for it. Now, for whatever bizarre reason, Vetock seems to have thought that all of those are unnecessary except for Markerlights, which have been promoted to core mechanic of the army.

Except only Targetting Arrays got removed and Multi Trackers are standard with suits now
Im sure we will cope.....

P.S. Target Lock still exists

 Nathemo wrote:
Im sure we will cope.....

Of course we'll cope. In the end I suspect it's going to be a powerful army, but that doesn't make it any less annoying that we're stuck with Codex:Markerlights and just replaced one mono-build codex with a different mono-build codex.

 Peregrine wrote:


Of course we'll cope. In the end I suspect it's going to be a powerful army, but that doesn't make it any less annoying that we're stuck with Codex:Markerlights and just replaced one mono-build codex with a different mono-build codex.

Sure im not a veteran Tau player (started couple of years ago) but barring the change to broadsides rail guns (i forget the new name) nothing much has changed to make it 'codex:markerlight' any more than it previously was (which to me it wasnt)
Probably just personal opinion but meh >.<

 Nathemo wrote:
Sure im not a veteran Tau player (started couple of years ago) but barring the change to broadsides rail guns (i forget the new name) nothing much has changed to make it 'codex:markerlight' any more than it previously was (which to me it wasnt)

Of course things changed.

Removal of targeting arrays = only way you can shoot at better than BS 3 is markerlights (and your shiny new missile drones are BS 2).

Removal of vehicle multitrackers = only way you can move and shoot effectively is markerlights.

The entire new "Tau" codex is based around having a horde of weak units that suddenly become terrifying when you hand them a bunch of markerlight counters. This is good for winning games, but just replaces the previous "broadsides and fireknives" mono-build codex with a different "25% of your point spent on markerlights" mono-build codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

Of course things changed.

Removal of targeting arrays = only way you can shoot at better than BS 3 is markerlights (and your shiny new missile drones are BS 2).

Removal of vehicle multitrackers = only way you can move and shoot effectively is markerlights.

The entire new "Tau" codex is based around having a horde of weak units that suddenly become terrifying when you hand them a bunch of markerlight counters. This is good for winning games, but just replaces the previous "broadsides and fireknives" mono-build codex with a different "25% of your point spent on markerlights" mono-build codex.

You don't have to tell me what Tau are and how they should be played (looking at the new codex thanks to some helpful folks on /tg/ and I may not be the best player but I certainly know the idea and playstyle behind them).

Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights however that idea is stronger in the new codex ,I admit, but to me it doesn't change much in how I personally would play them. Each to their own. If you want to go for more mono-builds then be my guest but there's more potential then just spamming Markerlights to win (which may be difficult....but fun ). Although there will be a fair amount of anti-assault trolling with using them for overwatch.

TBH I don't even know why you replied to me anyways since I was just informing another poster that not everything has completely disappeared (i.e. Multi-trackers and Target-lock) -shrug-



Edit: I know things changed, I didn't deny any existence of change

 Nathemo wrote:
Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights

Except that's not true at all. You could easily build an army where everything but the basic fire warriors had either BS 4 or TL BS 3 weapons (better than BS 4) without using a single markerlight. Markerlights were a nice bonus that you could use to maximize your firepower at a key moment, but not an essential part of the army. Now that's gone entirely and markerlights are mandatory if you want to be anything more than a shooting-only army with BS 2-3.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Nathemo wrote:
Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights

Except that's not true at all. You could easily build an army where everything but the basic fire warriors had either BS 4 or TL BS 3 weapons (better than BS 4) without using a single markerlight. Markerlights were a nice bonus that you could use to maximize your firepower at a key moment, but not an essential part of the army. Now that's gone entirely and markerlights are mandatory if you want to be anything more than a shooting-only army with BS 2-3.

You've got AP2 (Large?) Blasts from Supercharged Ion weapons (not sure which) and more that all will ignore cover if you get TWO markerlight hits on a unit. I don't want to hear you say you got the crap end of the stick.

 Wilytank wrote:
You've got AP2 (Large?) Blasts from Supercharged Ion weapons (not sure which) and more that all will ignore cover if you get TWO markerlight hits on a unit. I don't want to hear you say you got the crap end of the stick.

One blast, on a single 200-250 point unit. That's hardly impressive.

And yes, markerlights make everything awesome. That's exactly the problem, instead of a balanced and diverse codex with lots of interesting options we got Codex:Markerlights.

Nathemo wrote:
Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights


Except that's not true at all. You could easily build an army where everything but the basic fire warriors had either BS 4 or TL BS 3 weapons (better than BS 4) without using a single markerlight. Markerlights were a nice bonus that you could use to maximize your firepower at a key moment, but not an essential part of the army. Now that's gone entirely and markerlights are mandatory if you want to be anything more than a shooting-only army with BS 2-3.

This exactly. Markerlights were effective if poorly implemented in the old addition, but you didn't need them, and the army could function fine without them. This addition looks like they will be mandatory.

Worse yet, it seems like the markerlight implementation has been really poorly thought out. We still have the needless distinction between regular and network markerlights. Markerlights are still heavy. And I am not certain how effectively units that take marker drones will be able to split fire to provide markerlights to other units. As BS based shooting weapons, markerlight performance is also rather inconsistent. Perhaps worst of all, our two massed markerlight carriers, pathfinders and drones squads, are in the fast attack slot. Seeing that Vetock insisted on making makerlights central to the functioning of the Tau army, shouldn't these two options be troops choices, especially pathfinders, who haven't belonged in FA since 4th edition?

Basically, if you want to play the codex as Vetok requires, you are going to do so with little to no fast attack options. As someone who was hoping that Tau fliers would be good enough that I wouldn't need to resort to necron allies for air support, it looks like I may be fielding allied crons anyway, not because our fliers suck (although that point is still quite debatable), but because I can't field the central mechanic of my army if I take Tau fliers. I am sorry, but when the central mechanic of the Tau army works better when I choose to take allies, something is seriously wrong with the army design.

The thing is, absolutely no thought was put into the markerlight rules themselves. They were carried over directly from the old dex, with only minor changes being made to the benefits they granted. If Vetock insisted that all Tau armies revolve around this mechanic, it should have been redesigned from the ground up. Instead, Tau weren't even given so much as a simple and logical force org reorganization to reflect the critical role markerlights now play in the army. It is an incredibly sloppy and poorly designed central mechanic that the Tau are forced to use thanks to other changes(no TA, no vehicle Multitracker), and the new codex is going to suffer from it. At best, the poor implementation of markerlights will limit viable builds (limited use of other FA choices), at worse, it will prevent Tau from being a truly competitive army.

I will reserve final judgement of this dex until I have the actual print version as opposed to a large number of leaked rules and photocopied pages, but it is looking like Vetock really mangled this dex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
You've got AP2 (Large?) Blasts from Supercharged Ion weapons (not sure which) and more that all will ignore cover if you get TWO markerlight hits on a unit. I don't want to hear you say you got the crap end of the stick.

One blast, on a single 200-250 point unit. That's hardly impressive.

Don't want dead marines and 'sploded Land Raiders? Fine. Hold fire and we'll kill you xenos first then.

 Wilytank wrote:
Don't want dead marines and 'sploded Land Raiders? Fine. Hold fire and we'll kill you xenos first then.

Again, 200-250+ points. STR 9 is awful at killing Land Raiders, and a single blast weapon isn't all that scary for 200+ points. I'd much rather have old broadsides back and delete the riptide entirely.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Don't want dead marines and 'sploded Land Raiders? Fine. Hold fire and we'll kill you xenos first then.

Again, 200-250+ points. STR 9 is awful at killing Land Raiders, and a single blast weapon isn't all that scary for 200+ points.

That isn't the only weapon you have.

"Hmmm...What's the most threatening thing on the field right now? Those Long Fangs behind the defense line? *two markerlight hits* *Supercharge Ion cannon, no overheat, direct hit, all models hit, all wound, all dead*

What's next, Mr. Shas'sushi? That Land Raider Crusader transporting those Terminator Wolf Guard? *two markerlight hits* *Hammerhead with Railgun shoots, hits, penetraits, rolls a 4, 'splodes*

Nice job. Fire warriors can shoot them to death now. What else? That Vendetta his IG allies have are coming in next turn? Well, we have like five units with skyfire with some who have interceptor as well. No problem.

For the greater good!"

 Wilytank wrote:
"Hmmm...What's the most threatening thing on the field right now? Those Long Fangs behind the defense line? *two markerlight hits* *Supercharge Ion cannon, no overheat, direct hit, all models hit, all wound, all dead*

I'd love to play this alternate game of yours where you always succeed on your die rolls.

Also, I already said that markerlights are awesome. The problem isn't that markerlights and stripping cover saves is weak, it's that markerlights are mandatory and make Tau a mono-build army.

What's next, Mr. Shas'sushi? That Land Raider Crusader transporting those Terminator Wolf Guard? *two markerlight hits* *Hammerhead with Railgun shoots, hits, penetraits, rolls a 4, 'splodes*

Ok, so we'll just assume that your single shot always rolls a 5+ to penetrate, on top of never rolling a 1 to hit, getting stopped by a cover save, or failing to roll a 4+ to explode it? Because under those assumptions my 70-point infantry squad with a BS 3 lascannon is even better at killing Land Raiders.

That Vendetta his IG allies have are coming in next turn? Well, we have like five units with skyfire with some who have interceptor as well.

Yeah, because we all know that IG are terrible at shooting AA units to death before they matter...

 Nathemo wrote:

You don't have to tell me what Tau are and how they should be played (looking at the new codex thanks to some helpful folks on /tg/ and I may not be the best player but I certainly know the idea and playstyle behind them).

Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights however that idea is stronger in the new codex ,I admit, but to me it doesn't change much in how I personally would play them. Each to their own.

Yes. And I started playing Tau because of cool Tau vehicles, and no, they don't have Multitrackers or Target locks anymore. Which means, Tau vehicles are nerfed to uselessness, which means that my Tau army is no longer included amongst the "each" which get their "own". Tau tanks, once famed for their awesomeness, are now amongst the very worst in the game.

The Codex has number of little blurbs which suggest that Vetock had little clue about Tau. A minor example are Seeker missiles: infantry no longer can call them with Markerlights. Rules-wise, this is not a big change because the mechanic was seldom that useful in-game, the way it was implemented. But this is a gigantic breach of Tau fluff, where Seeker missiles play critical role. Whole point of Seeker missile is entire Tau force is networked: infantry can carry Markerlights, paint the target with them, and then request Seeker missile strike. They don't necessarily know where the missile comes from, it doesn't matter. Mantas carry sizable Seeker missile battery for this exact purpose. In fact, Pathfinders are one of the primary Seeker missile users. They sneak up on the enemy, and then ambush it with Seeker missiles shot far from the rear, flank or even air. Advantage of this is that Seeker missiles can arrive from unexpected direction, possibly hitting enemy side or rear armour. Some players actually used them this way, they loaded Piranha with Seeker missiles, flat-outed it to enemy's flank, and let loose with Markerlights.

However, Vetock has written Seeker missiles simply as Tau variant of Hunter-Killer missiles with extra rules if used with Markerlights. But that's just not how they are meant to work.

I think the FWs are essential now - more so than crisis suits perhaps. Overcharged ion weapons are almost as effective as railguns, but I don't think there's as much variety as folks are making out.

Here's my summary of each unit versus the old codex, and a general overview of what's now good and what's not: http://exterminatus.co.uk/2013/04/06/new-tau-unit-summaries-vs-old-codex/

Melissia wrote:People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

veterans, and stormtroopers. veterans become veterans merely by being the last lucky few survivors. Does not necessarily mean they're the best. just the luckiest. as to stormtroopers - raised from birth in the schola progenium to fight. Kinda like fire warriors being raised in their battle academies, and being, you know, trained from birth to shoot.

personally, im fine with bs3 fire warriors, but i'd like to see bs4 veterans.

Melissia wrote:
No, they're Tau. They should have BS2 really.

lets see.

(1) trained from birth to fight.
(2) bred for fighting. the shas as an entire caste are physically and mentally designed to fight, and to want to fight. when they're not fighting, they're thinking about it.

bs3 is generally fine. the above 2 points sum up cadians quite well (as well as the shas caste), so if bs3 is fine for them, its fine for my fish. the fact that fire warriors could claim to match cadians is a feather in their caps.

Peregrine wrote:
Except Orks and IG are supposed to be hordes of weak units that compensate for their low quality by bringing obscene numbers of inaccurate guns and drowning the enemy in bodies. Fluff-wise they're the barely-trained conscripts given a flashlight and a t-shirt and sent to die, or the rioting soccer fans that care more about making a lot of noise shooting everywhere than actually hitting anything. Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers. But somehow even our elite battlesuit pilots, veterans of years of combat before they even get to be considered for a promotion to that position, are no better than basic guardsmen.

Until they have markerlights, of course, at which point they get to be BS 5 and ignore cover. It's just too bad if you don't want to spend 25% of your points on Pathfinders.

and tau are the reasonably well trained, grunts that really are not that special on their own. what lets them fight far above their weight class in the 40kiverse is the fact that they bring superior technology to the field that offsets their (a) lower numbers, (b), arguable biological deficiencies, and (c)improve their accuracy.

all IG are not poorly trained conscripts. cadians are pretty awesome troops.

Melissia wrote:
Actually soldiers of the Imperial Guard probably have more training and experience than the Tau do simply as a matter of humans having longer lives.

i dont think "long lives" is a trait well known in the guard melissia! ignore your imperial propaganda and have a look at the casualty reports that come flooding in from the front. wasnt there a BL book which described the average life expectancy of a guardsman on that particular world as 15minutes?

as a whole, the imperial guard possesses more knowledge, but that is from (a) fighting the emperors foes for ten thousand years, and (b) being such a huge empire. when you bring it down past the sector level, past the subsector level and to the realm of a platoon commander raised in a hive world, on patrol on a world he's never before heard of, fighting enemies he's never faced (and probably only knows about from myths and legends) all that knowledge the imperium holds is quite irrelevant. knowledge is not something passed on to the basic gronts.

Melissia wrote:

Tau have inferior biologies for shooting. It's in the lore. Were it not for their superior technology they'd be BS2 standard.

Not really. tau have slower reaction times against fast moving targets - ie i2. their slower reaction times is balanced against them having a superior eyesight, by being able to see into the IR and UV spectrum.

furthermore, lets point out that as a sub species, the fire caste is specifically bred to fight, and wage war. they're genetically predisposed to be a warrior caste. Not only do the tau possess breeding programmes for this, but the actively support this with synthetic development. ever play metal gear solid? Liquid Snake spoke of soldiers in the gulf war being injected with so called "soldier genes". And zachary's theorem described artificial proteins and amino acids being found in the blood anf tissues of his test subjects. face it - the shas as a caste are being enhanced constantly.

And lets add in the excellent technology the tau equip their soldiers with. it doesnt bring them up to par. it enhances a potent base line.

And as a last point, can we point again to the tau battle academies. the shas are raised from birth to fight. only the stormtroopers of the schola progenium and cadians can claim such a birthright.

bs3 is fine for 40k. the system lacks the depth to really distinguish between a lot of things. bs3 covers a very broad spectrum.

Fluff does not equal rules. Never will. Arguing that you should have better rules due to fluff is barking up the wrong tree. I think BS3 is fine. Most of the time my suits will have a twin linked weapon system anyway.

Codex:Markerlights.

"25% of your point spent on markerlights" mono-build codex.

Exactly. Instead of a proper 6th edition update we have Codex:Markerlights.

Read the book head to toe before you come to a conclusion. There is SO MUCH you can do with this fine codex. Sure we lost some of the cheese some tau players have grown fat off, but true tau players adapt with the new weapons and technology we have been given. As a 8+ year Tau vet, perhaps I can open your eyes to some wise advice?

Commander + Gun Drone Squadron + Drone controller.

All of a sudden, that drone squadron is now firing at BS5 (twin-linked if the drones are kept standard). Want to be more cheesy? Change the drones to marker drones for free. Now you have a squad of BS5 markerlights.. that are relentless.. and have jet-pack moves with better armor.

Riptide + Early Warning Override + ion Accelerator

For it's price, you don't even need to turn on the nova reactor... now you can remove full squads of terminators if they dare try to deep strike on the board.

Farsight + 7 Battlesuit Bodyguard + Wargear of your choice

Need I say more? Put a few target locks around the squads with Twin-Linked Fusion blasters and watch IG tank armies cry.

Ethereal (Using fire invocation) + Cadre Fireblade

All this combined... you fire 4 shots within 15"!! 4x13 shots = 52 shots.. from a single fire warrior squad.
At BS3 on average half will hit (26). Against T4, 66% of that will wound (17). Against T3, even more.

Longstrike

A upgrade that gives BS5 AND tank hunter. Come on now! You have the best long range tank killer in the game with this guy.