I checked the forums and I did not see this in the 139 threads that came back on my search, so here we go.

I started with Ultramarines and my feeling on them is meh. They are not bad at anything, but not great. Since I am probably not the only one that feels this way, I am curious what everyone else would like to see (realistically of course).

I really think just a slight points readjustment, maybe a change to how venerable dreads work, and Tu'shan the salamanders chapter master would make it awesome. I already feel it's pretty competitive in 6th as is. What I hope they don't do is change drastically how the codex works.

I want to see a return to the "make your own chapter" strengths and weaknesses system.

It needs to be done better though. The old one was far to simplistic with some obviously powerful strengths and lame downsides you'd hardly notice.

flak missile upgrade?

As far as new units go I am not persuaded they need anything. If something like chapter traits is reinstituted that would be nice.

They will probably get some stupid large model that looks more like a toy than a proper wargame miniature since that is the current trend.

I bet they get a FAQ the day after release to fix some bonehead error since that also is a recent trend!

Devastators adjusted in cost downward heavily, Vulkan's ability re-worked/removed/apply only to his own unit/etc, AA missiles on Whirlwind, TH/SS termi's upp'd in points and ranged terminator weapons dropped in points, points drop on tanks and especially Venerable dreads, obviously adjust assault/tac squads like DA's.

A change to close combat dreads.

Nothing. Codex: Space Marines is totally fine. A few units could get minor points adjustments to bring them in line with the modern books, but this is a relatively minor factor. At this stage it looks like most of the updates provided by a new Space Marine codex would consist of minor price drops on some units (Devastators, Scouts, Predators, Vanguard) and minor price hikes on others (TH/SS Terminators).

Of course, there's potential for adding new stuff, but by and large the core of Codex: Space Marines is quite balanced at present.

Point re-ajustment for sure.

Being able to Customize your forces more to represents more chapters.

More funky gadgets like the conversion beamer and thunderfire cannon.

And make the land speeder storm a dedicated transport.

And Finaly...more the emperors sake....make the legion of the dammed usable.....such cool models going to waste....make me sad thinking about it

not rolling the black templar in with them would be a good start.

Back on topic i would say leave the units alone and mess with the points. IE assault squads, assault terminators, legion of the damned, tacs and devastators.

Maby give the predator a buff too with armor being close to a wet paper bag in 6th. something to make it survive longer than shooting once or not at all then dieing instantly from a side armor hit.

Space Marines don't need anything in 6th edition. They have the most complete line of models that GW produces, with the vast majority in plastic, even the only plastic Commander kit.

However, GW feels the need to push models with every codex release, so we will see new models. Going by recent trends, this includes at the very least - an infantry box, a 3 mid sized model box, a plastic single frame character, a large oval base box and a flyer.

Infantry
The only Infantry box Space Marines are missing in plastic are Veterans. I'd be shocked if we didn't get a dual Veteran box that builds both Vanguard and Sternguard veterans, with some more ornate looking armour and weapons, as well as a selection of special weapons.

In true GW style, it won't include the stuff people want - it'll be missing Jump packs, so people have to buy assault squads to get jump packs for them. It'll be missing combi weapons, because GW will sell a conversion pack with 1 of each, making people buy multiple packs.

3 mid sized model pack
No idea. There's rumours of a new type of power armour for the 6th edition codex, half way between a Terminator and a Dreadnought. This is a good contender.

Large oval base model
My guess is something along the lines of the Dreadknight, hopefully with less Dreadknight.

Plastic single frame character
Most likely a Librarian or Chaplain. Maybe both.

Flyer
Space Marines now have 2 flyers. As of Death from the Skies, Stormravens are vanilla legal, which gives them that and the Storm Talon. They don't need another flyer.

My guess is a new tank. Likely a new Predator box with a new turret option (maybe the Plasma Annihilator varient FW is doing) and maybe even with the Whirlwind packed in for good measure in order to further reduce Space Marine SKUs and inflate the box price a little more.

vanguard vets need to be made usable, and legion of the damned. Maybe the chapter tactics reintroduced and balanced.

That and a few minor points adjustments, and it's good to go.

Land speeder storm as a dedicated transport,
Plastic chaplain/librarian kit,
Points adjustments,
Flak missiles,
Whirlwind with Hyperios option.
Tarantulas.

That's about it really.

Point adjustments, something to make Captains worth taking again, less emphasis on taking a SC in every single game because their special rules are just too good, a return of the Chapter Traits system, but maybe with a few tweaks, something to make Honour Guard viable (think SG for BA, or DA Knights), increase costs for TH/SS Terminators, Flakk missiles, make Scouts cool again, something big to take on Riptides and Dreadknights, an anti-air Rhino variant, up the price of Artificer armour, invulnerable save for Librarians, make Cassius more expensive and give him back PE:Tyranids.

Those are the ones off the top of my head, nothing too major, just bringing it in line with other codices.

It needs delaying until we get some other codexes updated.

For the most part I think out codex is in a good place. Just a few tweaks here and there are needed.

Most of the list needs the Dark Angels price/composition adjustments. The problem is making us something besides "DA, with all the cool stuff taken out" I think the answer to that is to make a very flexible book. Let us do a all terminator army. We don't get the special death wing knights or wacky rules though. Or assault marines jump army, but no decent of angels or other BA specials. Just like we can do the all bike army now. Ravenwing has enough going on to differentiate themselves.

Captains/Chapter Masters need some sort of boost. I'd like to see a return of "Rites of Battle" where your whole army could use his leadership for moral/pinning tests. Also expand the bikes as troops if the captain has one to include jump packs and terminator armor. This could be a place to switch chapter tactics that isn't a special character, if they don't want to do it on an army level.

Librarians need to roll their powers, as much as I hate to admit it. Keeps up in line with the rest of the new books.

Techmarines and LotD need some love. Sternguard HBs should get hellfire rounds, but that's a fluffy thing.

Scouts should have LSS as a dedicated transport.

Nothing in the FA/HS slots some price tweaks can't fix.

Now we know GW is going to want some new shinies that we all need to buy. The problem is that our range is pretty well stocked. We don't need some giant monster. If they feel the need to press one on us, just go with the dreadknight. It doesn't need to exists, but it's there. Rather then inventing some new monstrous infantry thing, re-cut the dreadnought sprue. Or update the bikes. A veteran box would fly off the shelves. More plastic HQ kits would rock. Either a TDA one or a Librarian/Chaplain one

If they wanted to they could bring back some of the different artillery pieces like thudd guns, rapiers, mole mortars, and tarantulas. Or robots. Boost the role of techmarines.

I'm waiting for the book to come along and say they can pick a specific power from the BRB disciplines. Who better to give that to than Codex: Red Mage.

Certainly not going to say they NEED it, but I think GW might roll out the Legio Cybernetica again for the SM.

A squad of 3+ wound battle droids led by a techmarine? It fits the rumor about a unit between terminator and dreadnought size and gives them a good medium size plastic kit with multiple builds.

Just as an aside I do love that for all the matt ward hate he wrote rules that have lasted well for 2 editions which is saying something.

As for changes I think just some price adjustments would be enough. As others have said, adding chapter customization again would be great.

I hope they make it so you don't have to take Special Characters to make specific chapters. In other words, I hope that regular Captains/Chapter Masters let you pick your own Chapter Tactics.

Seeing where they are going with the Codex in 6th, the SM is almost competitive right now.
I see it mostly as a points adjustment...

1. Reduce cost of predators to DA levels.
2. Reduce cost of Devastators to DA/CSM levels.
3. Reduce cost of Whirlwing to DA levels.
4. Reduce Librarian costs to DA/CSM levels.
5. Add Flakk option to Missile Launchers.

I would love to see Heavy Bolters be made more viable... Perhaps as simple as a 5 point reduction in cost.
I doubt we will see it, but I would love the tactics to be free of running a special character with the exception of Biker Captain allowing Bikes as troops.

To expand on that, I would love if a Jump Pack Captain would unlock Assault Marines as troop choices.

I think Vanguard Vets are priced right IF they got their jump packs for free. Perhaps make it like the old BA White Dwarf... Free Rhino, Drop Pod or Jump Packs.

I would like to see the Honor Guard get the grenade launcher for free. It is a neat option but +15 points? I don't think so. Include it for free and it helps make them a debate between them or terminators...

I would LOVE for combat shields to go back to 5++ in close combat and stormshields to be LOWERED to 4++ at all times if for nothing than to make assault termies and regular termies more on an equal footing.

I also think Chaplains need to be discounted... To say 70 points... sure they provide a free power maul and have their 4++ rozarius but they lose out to Librarians or pure combat captains or chapter masters - especially the named ones.

As far as chapter powers... why not preset them and make people pick them?

Ultramarines - Chose to Run
Salamanders/Crimson Fist - Stubborn
Dark Ravens?? - Fleet
White Scars - Outflanking Troops

Keep the special advantages attached to the ICs (i.e. Vulkan TL Flamers and Meltas, Shrike allows you to infiltrate, etc...)

Adding too much customization can be rough to balance. If you are giving up the option to take something you weren't going to use anyway for a bonus, is that really a drawback? An example from the 4th ed codex is "Eye to Eye" where you could only take one (total) attack bike, bike, or landspeeder squad. This was a major drawback. Would it affect a predro/vulcan drop list? Gunline? Not in any real manner. And if you wanted to play a bike army, you could just use a different set of traits for that list.

In the point-based RPG, HERO system, there is a saying: "A disad is only worth points if it's actually a disadvantage" If you want to take "Vulnerable (2xdamage) from lasers" in a space opera campaign, you get a chunk of points for it. You take it in a low fantasy game, you don't get any. But that's a system with a GM to help keep things in line. With GW's loose rule set, there is nobody to slap you upside the head for being a munchkin power gamer.

I wan't enough flexibility to play White Scars, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Iron Hands, and any other chapter you care to name. It would be nice if there was a little something besides just unit selection to make them all distinctive. But I don't want some easy to abuse system. Just by choosing fluffy units you can go a long way to personalizing your army; not everything needs special rules. I'd rather have nothing new added then some broken system.

Full customisable character system as 4th edition had, would be utterly amazing, and would give you a reason to play C:SM over their varient's. Other than that, it would have to be a point's reajustment to fit in with other marine books, make legion of the damned space marines usable, and give some option to have x as troops (probably sternguard, right now i think it only makes them scoring).

Other than that, i'm pretty happy with it right now

so for TLDR:

1. Re-adjust point's to match newer books.
2. Something uniquely scoring. (DA have termies, BA have assault marines, e.x)
3. Full on character creator, to be the "Draw in players" feature for playing vanilla marine's over the other chapters.

Echoing the calls for a return to a chapter traits system. Less of this 'count-as-SC' malarky, let us buy the traits for our HQ's instead (balanced within reason of ocurse).
Make the vanguard worthwhile points-wise.
Give us a plastic veterans set for stern/vanguard.

I'm sure there's a Zord-type thing on the cards.

I just want an iron hands guy in the book. Just give me that and I'm happy.

I'd say Raven Guard love, so I guess I'm saying a better Chapter Traits system.

I also wouldn't mind straight-out ganking Wolf Lords from the SW book. You can make some actually usable non-SC HQs with that setup.

Flakk missiles obvi
Some adjustment to a vern dread

The biggest thing imo that needs to be fixed is the legion of the damned elites
Some of the coolest models for the army but the most worthless unit. Over priced sterguard really

Chapter master needs to be fixed

Aome tweeks to the stormtalon

And thats it imo. I think that if there is a model that no one runs they need to do some tweeking to it
To make it usable

Point adjustment for tactical marines to DA levels.

Point adjustment for Devestators and WW.

Point adjustments for the HQ slots.

More options to move things into different spots in the FOC (I like Chapter masters making Sterngaurd/vangaurd troops or something like that).

Dreadnaughts to 3 HP, Venerable with an invunerable save.

Command squad reworked to be more kitable at a usable point amount

What does the 6th Edition SM codex need?

Why, Black Templars, Blood Ravens and Dark Angels of course.

 Nevelon wrote:
Adding too much customization can be rough to balance. If you are giving up the option to take something you weren't going to use anyway for a bonus, is that really a drawback? An example from the 4th ed codex is "Eye to Eye" where you could only take one (total) attack bike, bike, or landspeeder squad. This was a major drawback. Would it affect a predro/vulcan drop list? Gunline? Not in any real manner. And if you wanted to play a bike army, you could just use a different set of traits for that list.

In the point-based RPG, HERO system, there is a saying: "A disad is only worth points if it's actually a disadvantage" If you want to take "Vulnerable (2xdamage) from lasers" in a space opera campaign, you get a chunk of points for it. You take it in a low fantasy game, you don't get any. But that's a system with a GM to help keep things in line. With GW's loose rule set, there is nobody to slap you upside the head for being a munchkin power gamer.

I wan't enough flexibility to play White Scars, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Iron Hands, and any other chapter you care to name. It would be nice if there was a little something besides just unit selection to make them all distinctive. But I don't want some easy to abuse system. Just by choosing fluffy units you can go a long way to personalizing your army; not everything needs special rules. I'd rather have nothing new added then some broken system.

Yeah, I think the best way to do it would be to allow Chapter Masters and Captains to exchange their Chapter Tactics for different ones, all within reason (different USR or something). Maybe Chapter Masters have more options than Captains or something.

BlaxicanX wrote:
What does the 6th Edition SM codex need?

Why, Black Templars, Blood Ravens and Dark Angels of course.

I think every model that comes standard with a bolt pistol should also get a close combat weapon. I'd also make Tactical Marines cheaper.

Large oval base model
My guess is something along the lines of the Dreadknight, hopefully with less Dreadknight.

My guess would be the old Epic Knights...
Provide them with options of weapons like gatling cannon, or mega bolter, perhaps Annihilator Plasma etc.

 Fezman wrote:
I think every model that comes standard with a bolt pistol should also get a close combat weapon. I'd also make Tactical Marines cheaper.

That would be everyone not in terminator armor. Seems a little much, I'd rather that gets left to chaos and space wolves.

DAaddict wrote:

I would love to see Heavy Bolters be made more viable... Perhaps as simple as a 5 point reduction in cost.

Heavy bolters are lightest looking of the heavy weapons marines use, a power armoured marine should be able to move it with relative ease. How about letting HB snapfire with BS2 if the snapfire was caused by the model moving? It would made HB the weapon of choice for tactical squads you want to keep more mobile.


One thing I actually like in current codex is how the tactical squads are structured. I'm sure many people hate it, but I like how the optimal way to buy the squad produces a fluffy, codex-compliant unit.

BlaxicanX wrote:What does the 6th Edition SM codex need?

Why, Blood Ravens of course.

That's Better

Backspacehacker wrote:Flakk missiles obvi
Some adjustment to a vern dread

The biggest thing imo that needs to be fixed is the legion of the damned elites
Some of the coolest models for the army but the most worthless unit. Over priced sterguard really

Chapter master needs to be fixed

Aome tweeks to the stormtalon

And thats it imo. I think that if there is a model that no one runs they need to do some tweeking to it
To make it usable

IMO, the best thing out of DftS was the reduced cost Storm Talon, made them very viable for a cheap, decent Flyer that will only compete with bikes for FA (solved by a bike captain, man, a T5 guy with 2+ and 4++), its best left alone. Agreed with pretty much anything else, and maybe put JP on Vanguard standard along with reduced weapon costs for devastators.

What no one else said that would be a VERY welcome sight imo would be to make vindis and preds AV12 on side and AV11 back, and Rhino with AV12 front, and rest left alone. I think that alone will make people want to take those vehicles more since they will be alot tougher and makes them with the fluff toughness (and realistically, a HB shouldn't be able to glance-to-death a MBT's back armor like now).

Along with the prior mentioned price decreases, the anti-air whirlwind, and detaching the SC requirements to play specific chapters, what I'd like to see:

A buff to Assault Marines to make them worth taking and give me a reason to consider them over Land Speeders, Bikes, or Stormtalons.

I'd also like to see certain direct only models *coughthunderfire cannon made more readily available, perhaps a true techmarine superkit.

Tac Marines getting the ability to take two special weapons again instead of special/heavy (I'd accept Heavy Flamers in tac squads instead)

Jump Pack command squads.

Give foot command squads special ammo, or heroic intervention if given JP's.

Decrease the cost of Vanguard Vet jump packs.

LS Storm as transport for Scout squads.

Scout armored HQ choice.

If not chapter traits more like 4th, then SC for each of the first founding Legions "at least".

SC's for the more famous Codex Chapters out there. Let the SC's swap the FO chart around. Would love to see C:SM be able to field ALL bike, termie, jump pack, tank, scout armies.

Option to upgrade some drop pods to allow assault from deepstrike.

Change the heavy bolter to "assault" from "heavy".

Apothecary as Elite choice.

Give Legion of the Damned their own Codex, roll Black Templars into C:SM's...

Aside from what's already been mentioned multiple times... Whirlwind Squadrons. Because they didn't buff their destructive capabilities, yet at least lowered the cost, being able to put them in squadrons would make them more viable. Right now if you look at DA for example, why take a Whirlwind that takes up an entire HS slot when you can take Predators, Vindicators, Devastators, Stormravens, even Land Raiders... all which make better use of that slot than a single Whirlwind, at least outside of very small games.

Whirlwinds should be made Elites.

Vanguard Vets need free JPs. Why are they fast attack if they can't move as jump infantry?? Makes no sense.

Other than that, I would just like to see a Dreadknight equivalent model.

Something a bit CC orientated with a bit of ranged thrown in. Opposite to the Tau one

LibrarianJaymez wrote:
Whirlwinds should be made Elites.

That wouldn't make any sense.

Vanguard Vets need free JPs. Why are they fast attack if they can't move as jump infantry?? Makes no sense.

Yet 20-point jump pack units with all the available upgrade options as well as the additional attack and special rules would make the 18-point regular Assault completely pointless.

I actually wish Assault Marines (Vanguard and normal) without jump packs would be a viable option. Somehow angry madmen running around with chainswords is just cooler than jumping around with rockets. Jump pack should be an upgrade.

Of course start would be to make assault marines viable, period. (Rending chainswors, anyone?)

they need a points adjustment on a lot of things. in particular Devestators, their heavy weapons are just too expensive.
Make the LS storm a dedicated transport
Reduce the cost of the legion of the damned, they are just too expensive to really include, and their upgrades are overpriced.
Look at the cost of vanguard vets, they are just horribly overpriced right now
More weapon/wargear options for assault marines.
Have a dedicated AA platform, possibly on a rhino chassis, or a variant of the TFC
Flak missiles as an option for ML's
The ability to take chapter traits without special characters.

I would really like the option of being able to focus an army around one of the non battle companies more easily, (10th company excepted of course) possibly by allowing you to buy an upgrade for your captain to make him a 8th/9th company captain (devestators and assault marines as troops) and allow you to take sternguard vets, vanguard vets, and terminators as troops if you take a chapter master.

but realistically, all the codex needs is some slight wargear and troops points adjustments to keep them in line with other armies, and make some of the lesser used troops more viable

HQs:
I would like to see the Chapter Masters and Company Captain’s with more useful.
 Chapter Master Choose their Warlord Traits.
 Capitan’s getting to effect the FOC

Elites:
 Assault Terminators be able to Assault out of Deep Striking.
 Sternguard getting Special Ammunition for the Heavy Bolter and/or making it 18” Assault-3


Troops:
 Tactical Squads getting their 1st Special Weapon at 5 and access to Heavy Flamers.
 Scouts getting Land Speeder Storm as a Dedicated Transport.

Fast Attack:
 Assault Squads: I don’t see a lot others than a point’s adjustment.
 Vanguard Vets: Let them do their Heroic Intervention out of Drop Pods [Double Cost?] and make the Jump Pack option no more Expensive than a Drop Pod.
 If the Land Speeder Storm Becomes a Dedicated Transport, drop it.

Heavy Support:
 Devastators: Points Adjustment mostly.
 How about a dedicated Dreadnaught in the Rifleman Configuration with Skyfire.

As for Sternguard getting Hellfire for Heavy Bolter - sure. But why not storm bolter, too? As it is still a bolter weapon and you even pay 5 points for it, without it really being an upgrade at all compared to a bolter with special ammo. Unless you want to shoot and assault I guess, but Sternguard aren't really an assault unit.

Honour Guard ought to be viable. They cost more than an Assault Terminator when upgraded with Relic Blades for a worse unit; no invuln, no AP2, lower strength of attacks, same number of attacks. but they can run and sweep! Totally worth the 10 points more.

Either buff the Relic Blade, or drop the price. Right now, they're only viable against units which strike after them (Orks, Guard...and that's about it) and are okay against other marines.

Most of what's been postedI agree with, especially the traits system and doing something with Vanguard; they're silly expensive when upgraded to do their job even halfway well.

Where to begin? A reason to take a generic HQ other than a Librarian would be nice.

 tvih wrote:
As for Sternguard getting Hellfire for Heavy Bolter - sure. But why not storm bolter, too? As it is still a bolter weapon and you even pay 5 points for it, without it really being an upgrade at all compared to a bolter with special ammo. Unless you want to shoot and assault I guess, but Sternguard aren't really an assault unit.

Sternguard are still veterans, with 2 attacks base. While they are much better shooting, they are no slouch in a fight, particularly if you give the sarge a CC toy and/or there is a character in the squad.

One of the balancing factors with the sternguard is that to get the most of their shooting, you need to be in rapid fire range, aka charge distance. I think double-tapping special ammo and then charging in at 2+1 attacks a model might be a little too much. 2 shots at max range would also make sitting in cover and raining the 30" AP4 kracken bolts very nasty. Sure, it's expensive, but I think a little too good.

I do think something needs to be done for stombolters on sternguard though. They are one of the few "trap" choices in the the book. You get to pay points for the luxury of making the unit worse off. If they are going to keep it so you don't get to fire special ammo though a SB, it should be a free swap, not a 5 point "upgrade"

And if you want to make the argument that all bolt weapons can shoot special ammo, let us shoot it out of bolt pistols before we charge in. It would make taking heavy weapons on sternguard a little more palatable.

 Anpu42 wrote:
HQs:


Elites:
 Assault Terminators be able to Assault out of Deep Striking.


LOL like that could ever happen.

 Eldarain wrote:
I want to see a return to the "make your own chapter" strengths and weaknesses system.

It needs to be done better though. The old one was far to simplistic with some obviously powerful strengths and lame downsides you'd hardly notice.

Seconded, that was the best part of the older codexes, though not game changers the strengths and weaknesses did a lot to make your chapter your own.

Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

DAaddict wrote:
My guess would be the old Epic Knights...
Provide them with options of weapons like gatling cannon, or mega bolter, perhaps Annihilator Plasma etc.

Knights have nothing to do with Space Marines, and definitely shouldn't be in their army list.

 Nevelon wrote:
Sternguard are still veterans, with 2 attacks base. While they are much better shooting, they are no slouch in a fight, particularly if you give the sarge a CC toy and/or there is a character in the squad.

I know, they can handle themselves in a fight but that's still not where you want to put them, given their special ammo.

One of the balancing factors with the sternguard is that to get the most of their shooting, you need to be in rapid fire range, aka charge distance. I think double-tapping special ammo and then charging in at 2+1 attacks a model might be a little too much. 2 shots at max range would also make sitting in cover and raining the 30" AP4 kracken bolts very nasty. Sure, it's expensive, but I think a little too good.

Perhaps. The alternative would be kinda obvious as well as you mentioned - just make the storm bolter a straight-up swap rather than a 5-point upgrade. I'm not sure why anyone would still make that swap in terms of effectiveness, though. I like how stormbolters look, but frankly they're not all that in terms of performance. Perhaps give the Stormbolters only hellfire, and not the other ammo types? Dunno. Of course if they DID make it more of a viable option, then we'd REALLY need a plastic Sternguard box with some storm bolters in it, given currently there's not exactly a plethora of power armor storm bolters out there. In my ~10k points of marines I only have one, from the commander kit. Though on that note, we need a plastic Stern/Vanguard box anyway.

I think they need to remove all apperances of Ultramarines, nerf Calgar and Lysander, make all the marines BS1, fire Matt Ward and turn the codex into a series of buffs for CSM and Daemons
Just my heretical thinking

More up to date xeno opponants...

I'd love to see a codex astartes to go alongside it the current codex - featuring a traits system and special characters for a lot of legions - Not just the first founding codex chapters, but some random chapters too.

For example, I'm sure that there are more characters than just Shrike and Vulkan in the RG and Sallies respectively.

Just some of my thoughts:
HQ:
a return of the 4th edition MYO chapter tactics on generic Captains or CM's (for either a point cost or a good enough drawback)

More options-I don't want my shooty army led buy a guy with a combi-bolter and hellfire rounds. Id much rather give him access to the entire armory-if I want a termie captain with AC/CML and a storm shield why cant I? Still ID's to a meltagun and hes gonna be roughly 200+ points

Elites:
Assault termies need to pay +5 pts for th/SS

Sternguard need more options and the ability to fire the rounds from boltpistols and SB's(under the bolter profile version)

Techmarines need an update/upgrade to make them worth taking

Dreadnoughts with Skyfire/interceptor options

Troop:
Tact squads with heavy flamers and potions to take special OR heavy at 5 man.

Scouts need more options or their profile bumped to the 4th edition one, and LSS as a dedicated.

Fast Attack:
Assault squads with the option to take bolters.

Vanguard need free packs OR transports. I dislike having to pay 35 points for an assault marine with an extra attack.

Heavy Support:
New predator variant with better armor

Cheaper Dev weapons.

Whirlwind update

Vehicle squadrons for preds and vindi's and whirlwinds. Too weak to just take one.

Army Wide:
Flakk missiles

Just my $0.02 on the matter


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the knight: thatll be the IG one if anything

Echoing others:

HQ: give us 2 for each founding chapter not in their own codex. Left page could be one, right could be the other. The left page guys could be a captain or chapter master. Let him play with the FoC or at least troop choices. Right page guy could make that chapter better at what it does.

Command squads and Honour Guard being expanded a bit more (larger command squads, more options for Honour Guard) would be nice.

Elite: Make dreads just a tad cheaper

Troops: leave them alone, but allow for more options (ie: add an apothecary at a cost, add a veteran sergeant (W2, 2+ armour), or add a 1W techmarine). Certain HQ could give a discount for some upgrades.

Transports: Rhinos and Drop Pods are good, cheaper Razors, cheaper Landraiders (no big discounts, just little adjustments).

Fast: Lower assault marine and landspeeder cost slightly. Don't add another flyer

Heavy: AA for Whirlwind and Devastators (who need to be cheaper).

And I agree: build your own chapter (more like the Horus Heresy FW book approach) or HQs that unlock more would be great. I'd also like to see unique items like refractor fields, vortex grenades, legion relics, stealth fields, jet bikes, etc.

It would be awesome to use the codex to build everything from Blood Ravens to Iron Snakes and have the result be fluffy, fun, but not be broken.

Without really putting in any new models, GW can generate new sales by giving people more to do with kits that are already there (which would give their obviously strained production line a little break). My biggest concern is that they try to do too much and mess up the SM, which really are still a solid codex, instead of just rebalancing them for 6th edition.

 Lobukia wrote:

Command squads and Honour Guard being expanded a bit more (larger command squads, more options for Honour Guard) would be nice.

I think these should just be removed.

Let me explain: the one thing I really miss from 2e is the ability to have little independent characters that can be individually equipped and can join any unit. Make Apotecharies, Standard Bearers and Champions characters that don't take up a FO slot (like DA techmarines are already.) Then let us equip them as we see fit and stick to any squad we like. Along with this we need good and flexible options to equip our veteran squads. There is no need to have a separate command squad; just stick your command characters in your veteran squad. And if you for example want 'Terminator Command Squad' that can be done too, give your little characters termie armour and put them in your terminator squad. And of course if you want to have your Standard Bearer in one squad and the Apotechary in another, that can be done too.

I would love to see the Honor Guard more like the Dark Angles Veteran Squads or Space Wolf Wolf Guard in the level of Options and keep their Artificer Armor.

Maybe something with the Command Squads similar to the Dark Angels Command Squad. If the Character is in Terminator Armor, His Command Squad gets Terminator Armor, is in Scout Armor, they are in Scout Armor.

Apothecaries that are able to take something other than a Chain Sword and Bolt Pistol or Bolt Gun. Maybe just give them Rending with their Medical Tools.

I really like the 2 Characters form Each Founding Chapter Concept.

Give Vulcan the Master of the Forge Abilities.

Let Shrike do Heroic Intervention

Pedro makes Sternguard Troops

10th company Build:
 Elite Scouts with Sternguard Gear
 Fast Attack Scouts with Vanguard Veteran Gear [No Thunder Hammers, Power Fist or Storm Shields]
 Heavy Support Scouts with Devastator Weapons Options.

 Crimson wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Command squads and Honour Guard being expanded a bit more (larger command squads, more options for Honour Guard) would be nice.

I think these should just be removed.

Let me explain: the one thing I really miss from 2e is the ability to have little independent characters that can be individually equipped and can join any unit. Make Apotecharies, Standard Bearers and Champions characters that don't take up a FO slot (like DA techmarines are already.) Then let us equip them as we see fit and stick to any squad we like. Along with this we need good and flexible options to equip our veteran squads. There is no need to have a separate command squad; just stick your command characters in your veteran squad. And if you for example want 'Terminator Command Squad' that can be done too, give your little characters termie armour and put them in your terminator squad. And of course if you want to have your Standard Bearer in one squad and the Apotechary in another, that can be done too.

I could roll with that... if Honour Guard stay (1 2+ non termie squad would be great, and the fluff on the Honour Guard from Know No Fear is too cool to give up)

I would love to make a scout army. Point adjustments are necessary as theres some units simply not worth taking. Make everything worth taking so we see even more builds out of C:SM.

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

 Exergy wrote:

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Well, they should.

 Crimson wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Well, they should.

Exactly. The failure of one Codex to offer builds is not an argument for other Codices to fail in the exact same way.

Bitter Dark Angels player here.

I think what the SM codex needs is to take anything good about the DA codex and make it better.

Lets do all the devastator, whirlwind, tac-squad, librarian point decreases and maybe drop it a point or two lower than that. Etc. Etc.

I'm feeling that I will be using the SM codex for my DA army again sometime next year.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Heavy Support:
New predator variant with better armor

Predators are already AV13/11/10. A Predator with better armour is called a Land Raider.

 -Loki- wrote:

Predators are already AV13/11/10. A Predator with better armour is called a Land Raider.

Well, they could get 12 on their side armour, not that it is needed.

However, Vindicators really should get AV12 on the sides. It is a tank with a short ranged weapon with weak side armour. And most importantly, Vindicator's sides actually look much more heavily armoured than other Rhino variants', they have that whole extra armour piece.

Funny that in any other threads everyone is complaining about AV14 vehicles, and when you get into this thread with space marines there is a few that wish their AV13 was AV14.... not like picking down armor was hard enough.

( Reference that "Everyone" is those complaining about the Tau Rails got nerfed so they couldnt kill AV14 that easily anymore, also a disclaimer that this is a half-joke on the irony )

This is my first post. So I hope this is a suitably good one.


HQ

CM
Wargear that grants EW (even if it's 60+ points)
CM specific warlord trait list, or ability to select warlord trait

Captain
Company specific rules as stated above. Something like:

First company - can take Tactical termies as HS and assault termies as FA
Battle company – one less Elite slot may take an additional HS or FA
Tactical Reserve- one less HS and FA two more troop
Assault Reserve – Assault squads / Bike squads are troop
Heavy Reserve – Dev's / Predators are troop
Scout company – one scout squad gets +1BS, +1WS, and +1ld to all models

Chaplain
Adamantium Will
Chapter Reli (one per army) models within 12” get a buff

Honor Guard
2W
more wargear options (combat shields, Jump packs for jump pack CM, bikes for bike CM)


Elites

Raise point costs of termies and give tactical termies BS2 snap shots


FA

Give bike squads the option of either taking two additional bikes or an attack bike (this always seemed odd to me)


Give vanguard vets the option to take two special weapons for full squad


I think all this chapter tactics SC stuff is a mess. In some ways some of the SC's are less balanced then stuff that could be done with the traits system (I'm looking at you Vulkan) and while I would like to see something like the traits stuff come back so that more of the different chapters could be viable, I also see a lot of potential for abuse. Whatever the solution to that problem is, I would hope GW would see the sense (and profitability) in releasing a “Chaos Legions” supplement like the “Craftworld Eldar” book so that CSM players wouldn't get the short end of the stick.

Space Marines could use a couple things, really.

Snipers that can actually shoot.

4++ invul saves on their tanks, 3++ especially for the Land Raiders.

Sternguard vengeance rounds should be AP2.

Flying Terminators.

Add Calgar's special rule to just choose whether or not to pass morale tests to ATSKNF, and then let Calgar choose whether the enemy's morale tests pass or fail.

Make Relic Blades ignore armor and invul saves and gives +2 to initiative.

An upgrade to allow their flyers to come in turn two every time.

Heavy flamers that auto-wound entire horde units in overwatch.

New Psychic power that allows you to reroll hits, wounds and pen table results until you get what you want and denies the other player any rerolls that they may benefit from. Call it Null Storm. Also shoots down enemy fliers.

Allow Tac units to upgrade their power armor to artificer for 2pts per model.

A new HQ choice that gives a roll, at start of the game, to auto-win the game, with an upgrade that allows re-rolls of that roll, and obviously, he'd be an Ultramarine.

No, but, really, what the SM codex needs is more randomness. We don't have enough randomness yet in sixth edition.

Zen2k wrote:
Space Marines could use a couple things, really.

Snipers that can actually shoot.

4++ invul saves on their tanks, 3++ especially for the Land Raiders.

Sternguard vengeance rounds should be AP2.

Flying Terminators.

Add Calgar's special rule to just choose whether or not to pass morale tests to ATSKNF, and then let Calgar choose whether the enemy's morale tests pass or fail.

Make Relic Blades ignore armor and invul saves and gives +2 to initiative.

An upgrade to allow their flyers to come in turn two every time.

Heavy flamers that auto-wound entire horde units in overwatch.

New Psychic power that allows you to reroll hits, wounds and pen table results until you get what you want and denies the other player any rerolls that they may benefit from. Call it Null Storm. Also shoots down enemy fliers.

Allow Tac units to upgrade their power armor to artificer for 2pts per model.

A new HQ choice that gives a roll, at start of the game, to auto-win the game, with an upgrade that allows re-rolls of that roll, and obviously, he'd be an Ultramarine.

No, but, really, what the SM codex needs is more randomness. We don't have enough randomness yet in sixth edition.

When I started reading your post, I thought you were serious, but now I realize

Also: Calgar should have a 2+, 2++, FnP (2+), ten wounds, EW, it will not die (2+). Because spess muhreen heroes can't die.

Cheaper TAC marines would be the biggest change that would help the codex. I'd expect this and across the board point drops on support units like Bikers/Devastators/Assault Marines. Make Legion of the Damned worth a damn.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Devastators adjusted in cost downward heavily, Vulkan's ability re-worked/removed/apply only to his own unit/etc, AA missiles on Whirlwind, TH/SS termi's upp'd in points and ranged terminator weapons dropped in points, points drop on tanks and especially Venerable dreads, obviously adjust assault/tac squads like DA's.

What is wrong with Vulkan he is fine as he is and needs no adjustment. TH/SS termis are at a good pt range compared to other armies. Have you been flamed/melta to death too much?

lynxstrife wrote:
What is wrong with Vulkan he is fine as he is and needs no adjustment.

He's not only a force multiplier, he's the best force multiplier in the book by far, and doesn't pay for it. He takes already no brainer weapons (flamers, meltaguns and thunderhammers) and simply makes them better for free.

lynxstrife wrote:
TH/SS termis are at a good pt range compared to other armies

Says someone who hasn't played other armies. T4, 2+/3++ saves, S8 AP2 attacks. While they strike last, they have the best durability in the game - they don't care about striking last. They are, flat out, one of the best assault units in the game, and while they're almost 50pts each, no other army has an assault unit with that durability or offensive punch for anywhere near as low as that price with the exception of Grey Knights. Throw in Vulkan, like anyone with half a brain that knows what synergy looks like would, and you've just boosted its offensive capabilities without even adding anything to the squad.

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

But it should have, and the mistakes of one codex doesn't mean others should be held back on account of that.

 -Loki- wrote:

lynxstrife wrote:
What is wrong with Vulkan he is fine as he is and needs no adjustment.

He's not only a force multiplier, he's the best force multiplier in the book by far, and doesn't pay for it. He takes already no brainer weapons (flamers, meltaguns and thunderhammers) and simply makes them better for free.

lynxstrife wrote:
TH/SS termis are at a good pt range compared to other armies

Says someone who hasn't played other armies. T4, 2+/3++ saves, S8 AP2 attacks. While they strike last, they have the best durability in the game - they don't care about striking last. They are, flat out, one of the best assault units in the game, and while they're almost 50pts each, no other army has an assault unit with that durability or offensive punch for anywhere near as low as that price with the exception of Grey Knights. Throw in Vulkan, like anyone with half a brain that knows what synergy looks like would, and you've just boosted its offensive capabilities without even adding anything to the squad.

190pts for a special chara is about normal compared to new SM books like DA or Chaos. Compared to other SC in the book I rarely ever see him if at all ever. You see wolves,BA ect more then codex then C:SM.

You know what armies i play? I play necrons learned of off CSM/Salamanders and moved on.

Are SS/TH Termies good in assault yes are they the best no. Seen them eatten alive by the a termgaunt? the melee roach/nid alot. Seen them utterly crushed by daemons of all colors and flavors to the point i sold them. Even seen 1 killed by 1 firewarrior and that was epic and made the marine player almost cry.

But it still sounds like there are a few salamanders in your area that are rather good at beating you. Don't cry nerf when there is no need just adjust your tactics and move on.

Cheers!

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

But it should have, and the mistakes of one codex doesn't mean others should be held back on account of that.

I really don't understand why people are having a hard time making a Traitor Legion list with the new CSM codex. Its truly not that difficult, especially for the ones listed above. The most challenging builds would be Alpha Legion and Night Lords, but for AL, all you really need to do is use a counts-as with Huron, and build a standard tactical list heavy with cultists and there you go. Night Lords are more of a challenge since Warp Talons take up the same slot as Raptors. Putting WT in the Elite section would have remedied this, but in a standard sized battle, 2-3 full units of either Raptors or Warp Talons would be more than enough to get the point across. Just because a Legion favors a particular style of warfare doesn't mean that's all they ever field. Night Lords had basic tac marines and terminator squads after all. They weren't an entire legion of Jump Assault.

Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are NOT difficult to build at all, and the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle were made specifically for those legions, you just won't be able to spam heldrakes if you try to stay true. Any of the Chaos Undivided legions are perfectly buildable with the new codex, its just that people want to spam the most effective units. In truth, none of the Legion specific builds would be considered "optimal" with the competative crowd anyway, because none of them would generally call for 3 heldrakes.

Back to the original subject, I really don't see a large oval monster in store for the C:SM. Not sure why everybody thinks that's the standard now. The first 6th edition codex had 2, and the fourth had 1. The 2nd and 3rd had none.

I foresee points and option loadouts matching the basic units from the DA codex, but none of the more DA specific stuff. As a result, I don't see assault marines really getting any better, just a point or two cheaper.

I also foresee some form of chapter traits in store, how its implemented I'm not sure, but I seem to recall an old rumor about chapter banners that can be purchased that will have different chapter traits.

Rumors abound about some sort of midway point between terminators and Dreads. I'm okay with this, as it might be that one unit that really brings some life to the stale SM builds. Not sure how they will write it into the fluff though. Hopefully they will have some experimental weaponry available to them.

I'd like to see Vanguard and Sternguard get a points decrease. Given the prevalance of AP3 or better, they really tend to not be very survivable. Also, taking a LR as a dedicated transport would be nice too.

Another Predator build is probably in the works, and possibly another LR build. No new flyers should be expected, although I wouldn't be shocked if they allow squadrons of stormtalons.

The marine Codex is in good shape really. The major needs as many have said is some minor tweaking of unit costs to bring them in line with the current Dark Angel costs.

Tactical Marines need to be one special weapon option in the base squad and if they have 10 men they can take a second special weapon or a heavy weapon.

TH/SS is a powerful unit and could use a points increase to balance them vs the other termie options.

I'd love to see Apothacaries as a 1-3 per slot IC elite choice like in the Blood Angel Codex. Let me spread some healers into my other units instead of only in command squads. Speaking of which let command squads match the Captain's movement options (Jump Pack, Bike) or Termie armor if the captain is wearing terminator armor. And make Captains playable instead of a joke compared to the Librarians or special characters.

Give Whilwind AA and a points drop.

As others have said a return to a more balanced traits system using the Chapter Tactics template to build non Ultramarine chapters.

What do they need to be perfect? Simple. More chaos influence!

Ps. Papa Nurgle says hi.

needs more cowbell.

I agree with what most folks have posted. I think a cost reduction to Tactical Marines is a must to pull them more in line with what DA are today.

I am ok with TH/SS Terminators at their current costs. I have played with and against them and found their cost on par.

I personally feel that some of the IC are not assigned a proper cost given their benefits. (Some need to come down just a pinch while others need to come up just a little)

One of the things that I would like to see more of is distinction within the codex. My feelings are that each SM codex has multiple things that set them apart from other SM codices. Sure there are other heroes you can take from other chapters in the codex, but something more than that.

Just my two cents.

Cpt of the 8th.
As lord of the reserve, all assault company he can take a jump pack, bike or land speeder. Any squad he joins gets skilled rider plus hit & run. Fast attack units are now scoring, Troops are not.

Cpt of the 9th.
As lord of the reserve, all fire support company he can be equiped with either a las cannon or hvy bolter. Any heavy support squad he joins gains Relentless & Tank Hunter. Heavy support units are now scoring, Troops are not.

In either case Tactical squads are a 0-1 choice.

Cheaper Tac termies. Hammernators 5 points more a piece.

Cheaper Rhino upgrades. I think Rhinos are what there supposed to be but they do need a little love.

Melta guns for assault sqds, and cheaper upgrades.

Divination for the Libs.

 Eldarain wrote:
I want to see a return to the "make your own chapter" strengths and weaknesses system.

It needs to be done better though. The old one was far to simplistic with some obviously powerful strengths and lame downsides you'd hardly notice.

^^^^^^^^^

They could nerf the heck out of the book for all I care, I love force customization.

I miss IG doctrines too.

Something on an oval base. Perhaps two things on oval bases.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Something on an oval base. Perhaps two things on oval bases.

An oval base on an oval base?

The number 1 thing Marines need in 6th is a reduction in anti MEQ units in other books.

I always find Marine on Marine fights the most fun, because there are very few AP2 or AP3 weapons throughout the whole army, or rather, whole squads of such weapons.

Facing Guard? Multiple veteran squads with 3 plasmas each, plus pie plates. Facing Chaos? Havok squads with plasma or melta, Oblits, and Chaos Lords with 100+ AP3 attacks. In 4th I used to run 3 Fire Dragon units and a Dire Avengers unit...if I had first turn I'd Fish of Fury and take out half an enemy's army, if they were marines. ( remember when starcannons were king?)

I could go on, but really...the biggest problem with 40K and the Marine book really is how other army books are structured to take on Marines. They should instead be written to take on what should be the most numerous armies are, GEQ. Then you would see Marines return to an elite level and play like their fluff. Sure getting hit with 50+ lasguns is almost the same as 9 plasma guns, but at least you get to roll saves. Make power armor worth something instead of 823708234092 ways to negate it.

General Hobbs wrote:


The number 1 thing Marines need in 6th is a reduction in anti MEQ units in other books.

I always find Marine on Marine fights the most fun, because there are very few AP2 or AP3 weapons throughout the whole army, or rather, whole squads of such weapons.

Facing Guard? Multiple veteran squads with 3 plasmas each, plus pie plates. Facing Chaos? Havok squads with plasma or melta, Oblits, and Chaos Lords with 100+ AP3 attacks. In 4th I used to run 3 Fire Dragon units and a Dire Avengers unit...if I had first turn I'd Fish of Fury and take out half an enemy's army, if they were marines. ( remember when starcannons were king?)

I could go on, but really...the biggest problem with 40K and the Marine book really is how other army books are structured to take on Marines. They should instead be written to take on what should be the most numerous armies are, GEQ. Then you would see Marines return to an elite level and play like their fluff. Sure getting hit with 50+ lasguns is almost the same as 9 plasma guns, but at least you get to roll saves. Make power armor worth something instead of 823708234092 ways to negate it.

The most numerous armies are MEQ.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


The number 1 thing Marines need in 6th is a reduction in anti MEQ units in other books.

I always find Marine on Marine fights the most fun, because there are very few AP2 or AP3 weapons throughout the whole army, or rather, whole squads of such weapons.

Facing Guard? Multiple veteran squads with 3 plasmas each, plus pie plates. Facing Chaos? Havok squads with plasma or melta, Oblits, and Chaos Lords with 100+ AP3 attacks. In 4th I used to run 3 Fire Dragon units and a Dire Avengers unit...if I had first turn I'd Fish of Fury and take out half an enemy's army, if they were marines. ( remember when starcannons were king?)

I could go on, but really...the biggest problem with 40K and the Marine book really is how other army books are structured to take on Marines. They should instead be written to take on what should be the most numerous armies are, GEQ. Then you would see Marines return to an elite level and play like their fluff. Sure getting hit with 50+ lasguns is almost the same as 9 plasma guns, but at least you get to roll saves. Make power armor worth something instead of 823708234092 ways to negate it.

The most numerous armies are MEQ.

I feel for GH, the last two games I played in I never got to make any Saves with my MEQs. I don't know what salution is, but it is starting to be a problem.

Not in the fluff they aren't, which is the problem. There is a disconnect between fluff and game rules. If the 40K universe were real and you were an Imperial Guard army, you'd face traitor guard, tyranids, orks, tau and eldar the vast majority of the time. So while yeah, a vet squad might have those plasmas to face MC, most of the time you'd be carrying flamers and heavy bolters.

But in the game, because MEQ is so popular, the designers have felt the need to design so many units per army that are points/cost efficient to ot only take on marines, but other armies. Cheap plasma, missile launchers etc.

GK for a time found a way around this by wound allocation shenanigans with Draigo....

 juraigamer wrote:
I just want an iron hands guy in the book. Just give me that and I'm happy.

This. This. 1000x this. The iron hands have never had proper representation in the SM codex, and they are a first founding legion. Their chapter make up is unique. they have good fluff and would be a cool army to see on the table top.

 Havok210 wrote:
I agree with what most folks have posted. I think a cost reduction to Tactical Marines is a must to pull them more in line with what DA are today...

I see this quit a bit:
DA tacticals with 10men, 1 vet sarg, ML, MG, Rhino = 210
SM tactical with 10 men, 1 sarg, ML, MG, Rhino = 210

And I'd argue the SM have the better Special Rules

Iron Hands

Boobs. The codex needs more boobs.

Boobs everywhere.

I think you want the Sisters of Battle thread.

 -Loki- wrote:
I think you want the Sisters of Battle thread.

Just imagine Marneus Calgar, the most pompous space marine of all, with a giant rack on him

Don't worry, I'm just joking

 Selym wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I think you want the Sisters of Battle thread.

Just imagine Marneus Calgar, the most pompous space marine of all, with a giant rack on him

Don't worry, I'm just joking

Actually considering some Roman Armors...

 Lobukia wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
I agree with what most folks have posted. I think a cost reduction to Tactical Marines is a must to pull them more in line with what DA are today...

I see this quit a bit:
DA tacticals with 10men, 1 vet sarg, ML, MG, Rhino = 210
SM tactical with 10 men, 1 sarg, ML, MG, Rhino = 210

And I'd argue the SM have the better Special Rules

yes if identically kitted out the two units do cost the same. But the difference is the DA don't need to buy those upgrades where as the marines have them already factored into their cost. As well they have access to a special weapon at 5 men instead of 10 like the vanilla marines. That's where the costing in line with the DA codex comes into play so that I can choose the upgrades that I do or don't want and adjust costs accordingly rather than being told I have to buy them.

 schmoozies wrote:

yes if identically kitted out the two units do cost the same. But the difference is the DA don't need to buy those upgrades where as the marines have them already factored into their cost. As well they have access to a special weapon at 5 men instead of 10 like the vanilla marines. That's where the costing in line with the DA codex comes into play so that I can choose the upgrades that I do or don't want and adjust costs accordingly rather than being told I have to buy them.

The vanillla codex way is good, and DA should have kept it too. Vanilla method encourages you to build fluffy codex-compliant squads. DA way leads spamming small five man squads all with the same weapon upgrade (missile spam, plasma spam, etc.)

I'd definitely say that Vulkan is just too much of a no-brainer. He should be pared back to a normal SC - a guy who gives you a nice benefit, but sits somewhere between competitive and fluffy.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I'd definitely say that Vulkan is just too much of a no-brainer. He should be pared back to a normal SC - a guy who gives you a nice benefit, but sits somewhere between competitive and fluffy.

Do you find Vulkan a no-brainer in 6th edition? I've been finding that Combat Tactics is totally awesome in the context of the 6th edition ruleset, and metagame changes have made melta weapons less important in my area, diminishing part of the reason to take Vulkan in the first place.

They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

They did Chapter Traits once and it royally sucked...

I don't want to see a return of everyone and their mother playing the exact same Imperial-Blood-Fist-Ravens with 3x infiltrating Dev squads and true-grit everywhere for the 'drawback' of no Land Raiders that you were never going to take anyways.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

They did Chapter Traits once and it royally sucked...

I don't want to see a return of everyone and their mother playing the exact same Imperial-Blood-Fist-Ravens with 3x infiltrating Dev squads and true-grit everywhere for the 'drawback' of no Land Raiders that you were never going to take anyways.

If chapter tactic switching special characters won't break the game, then chapter tactic switching regular characters won't either.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

This. Let a Chapter Master or Captain buy different Chapter Tactics and make sure that the costs aren't fethed up. It's the last part that might fail, though.

itll wind up being way overcosted to get the traits... I could understand a percentage of the army (5% say) but with our luck itll be like a set x points to run a 1st company or 8th-10th company

They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

Funny. When CSM players say the same thing about their own codex they often draw ridicule. Why is it different for loyalists (serious question - not attacking you or trying to start a fight or anything)?

I would say that, at least in my area, the codex doesn't really need anything new so much as it needs to have what it already has adjusted to fit in more with the new edition. Considering that's pretty much been the path they have taken with the other new books I'd say the Marines will be in good shape. If I could wish list something though, I would say maybe some more love for scouts. IDK if the book actually NEEDS that, but it would be cool (imo) to see the scout entry expanded upon. Maybe some new special rules and the ability to take a Storm as a dedicated transport?

Loyalists are not dogs or playthings of the Dark Gods..?
In all seriousness, because its a little easier to represent many of the CSM named chapters with your current mark system (Cappy has x mark unlocks x troops). That's the kinda thing us loyalists want to have. If I take a 1st company theme I want to be able to have my scoring sternguard. If I take a EC army I want to have noise marines as troops... oh wait.. you can do that kinda thing in the new dex. We are hoping for something like the mark system (If he takes Heavy Weapons aptitude we get devs as troops, a jump pack and FA infantry are troops, TDA and we get scoring termies/sternguard, scout armor and we get bonus scout choices/options) As of now the CSM actually have a much easier way of making their armies warband specific than us marines do (We get IC's that sometimes make it fluffy like vulkan)

Tycho wrote:

Funny. When CSM players say the same thing about their own codex they often draw ridicule. Why is it different for loyalists (serious question - not attacking you or trying to start a fight or anything)?

Well, Chaos has Marks that allows giving units different flavour. (Not that they couldn't use more customisation options.)

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Loyalists are not dogs or playthings of the Dark Gods..?
In all seriousness, because its a little easier to represent many of the CSM named chapters with your current mark system (Cappy has x mark unlocks x troops). That's the kinda thing us loyalists want to have. If I take a 1st company theme I want to be able to have my scoring sternguard. If I take a EC army I want to have noise marines as troops... oh wait.. you can do that kinda thing in the new dex. We are hoping for something like the mark system (If he takes Heavy Weapons aptitude we get devs as troops, a jump pack and FA infantry are troops, TDA and we get scoring termies/sternguard, scout armor and we get bonus scout choices/options) As of now the CSM actually have a much easier way of making their armies warband specific than us marines do (We get IC's that sometimes make it fluffy like vulkan)

Yes, because having one specific cult troop is like getting an entire army full of devastators, or terminators, or awesome veterans (We get that too, except chosen aren't good).

I mean our real option there is Plague Troops, and Slaanesh (not as good), the rest are..so badly done.

Well ours would be the same... I mean I could understand like Iron Warriors getting Havocs as troops, NL getting assault... etc... But as I said, as of now CSM gives better warband customization than SM get. I could understand them expanding similar traits to the CSM captains though.

Tycho wrote:

They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

Funny. When CSM players say the same thing about their own codex they often draw ridicule. Why is it different for loyalists (serious question - not attacking you or trying to start a fight or anything)?

I think the nay-sayers would fall under the general "if a faction I don't play gets something, it must be condemned".

Personally, I'd want to see more variety in every codex. Even give us options for completely uncompetitive builds.

All-Scout armies. 'nuff said.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Well ours would be the same... I mean I could understand like Iron Warriors getting Havocs as troops, NL getting assault... etc... But as I said, as of now CSM gives better warband customization than SM get. I could understand them expanding similar traits to the CSM captains though.

The fact that this idea was poorly implemented in the Chaos Codex doesn't mean that it has to be in every other Codex using the idea.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
All-Scout armies. 'nuff said.

You can pretty much do this with the current codex. The only thing stopping you is a dedicated scout HQ. If you want to go pure 10th company, they have a normal captain/command squad/chaplain. Or just attach a librarian. If you want, model "artificer scout armor" with a 3+ save...

I'm not sure how many tricks could be opened up with allowing a captain to swap his 3+ for a 4+ save plus extras. Adding move through cover might be worth a straight swap for power armor, but if you include things like scout or infiltrate I think there might be some nasty stuff you could do.

I like scouts, but they are supposed to play second fiddle. They don't need more whistles and bells then they have now. The only big problems scout armies face is having LSS and scout bikers competing for FA slots.

You can pretty much do this with the current codex. The only thing stopping you is a dedicated scout HQ. If you want to go pure 10th company, they have a normal captain/command squad/chaplain. Or just attach a librarian. If you want, model "artificer scout armor" with a 3+ save...

I'm not sure how many tricks could be opened up with allowing a captain to swap his 3+ for a 4+ save plus extras. Adding move through cover might be worth a straight swap for power armor, but if you include things like scout or infiltrate I think there might be some nasty stuff you could do.

I like scouts, but they are supposed to play second fiddle. They don't need more whistles and bells then they have now. The only big problems scout armies face is having LSS and scout bikers competing for FA slots.

I'm not sure you need to go the route of having a captain unlock things, and they don't need to shift the focus of the army (imo), but I think it would be nice to at least get some new wargear to make scouts more "scouty". Something to help them synergise (sorry for the "s" word) better with the Tactical squads for example.

Honestly, I would just love to see the points fixed for Vanguard Vets, Honor Guard, Devastators, and Legion of the Damned.

Let us use the fun equipment options without them costing more than TH/SS termies!

I'd gladly just take a tiny white dwarf article or FAQ and let the codex slot go to someone who needs it more!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yes, because having one specific cult troop is like getting an entire army full of devastators, or terminators, or awesome veterans (We get that too, except chosen aren't good).

I mean our real option there is Plague Troops, and Slaanesh (not as good), the rest are..so badly done.

Think of the Chaos Space Marine Dex as made for the four Cult Legions. Play the reg Space Marine Dex for the other traitor legions, works fine. Run the BA codex for NL's. All good.

 dracpanzer wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yes, because having one specific cult troop is like getting an entire army full of devastators, or terminators, or awesome veterans (We get that too, except chosen aren't good).

I mean our real option there is Plague Troops, and Slaanesh (not as good), the rest are..so badly done.

Think of the Chaos Space Marine Dex as made for the four Cult Legions. Play the reg Space Marine Dex for the other traitor legions, works fine. Run the BA codex for NL's. All good.

People do that already pretty much.

Even then they still do it for the cult legions, there's plenty of Count's as Khorne with the BA dex...

Think it'd be nice if one could actually run what legion you want without needing to head to "Imperium loyalist #2 book"

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
People do that already pretty much.

Even then they still do it for the cult legions, there's plenty of Count's as Khorne with the BA dex...

Think it'd be nice if one could actually run what legion you want without needing to head to "Imperium loyalist #2 book"

Would be nice. But GW had to put Huron in over one of the Original Traitor legions getting a SC. The SC unlocks troop type would be great for just about any codex.

You only see so many TH/SS terminators because our OTHER terminators are so poor. Give them a free heavy weapon upgrade and a chainfist for every five models in the squad and you might see them again on occasion. Even better; do that and increase their invul save to 4++. You'll see assault terminators disappear quickly even if they do stay at the same cost.
It won't happen of course; everyone else's terminators are base 5++ so there's no reason to expect it to change. It's not like we get a huge discount on them now as is, compared to the other books. GW forbid we have a reasonably priced assault unit that actually stands up in close combat...

I also strongly agree with those calling for SM captains to be made more useful, particularly by choosing their own chapter tactics or unlocking something special as troops.
Jump captain gets you one scoring assault squad, terminator captain gets one scoring terminator unit, etc.
Having to take a named character to get rules indicative of your chosen chapter was a terrible mechanic.

Adjust points downward for nearly every unit in the book. DA has a nice approach to tactical squads, I wouldn't mind seeing them done that way (but keeping combat tactics of course). Drastically decrease costs for vanguard vets or give them free jump packs.
I know our librarians are going to have to roll for their powers, but don't like it. They're either going to have to be insanely cheap or have access to divination. Or both.



Most importantly I would like to see a competitive reason to take full 10 man squads over MSU builds. The 'fluffy' options should correspond with the most tactically viable, which is so rarely the case in 40k.

Minor rebalancing. Nothing more. C:SM fifth edition was one of the best codices released in terms of design and internal balance, only overshadowed by other codices because they were overpowered.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Jump Pack command squads.

Give Legion of the Damned their own Codex, roll Black Templars into C:SM's...

Dear god, no! ;P

As a BT player I'm actually not fussed about them being rolled into C:SM as long as there is some way to keep some of their individuality. Some kind of Chapter traits system or a page or two giving them some special rules would be fine by me. It would be a bit of a shame as it would likely result in no new models for them though.

Legion of the Damned codex would be terrible - 100 pages of "We don't really know much of anything about them......." lol!

Heavy Support:
Offer Thunderfire Cannons in groups of 3.

Whirlwinds: Give the whirlwind Multiple Barrage 2

Troops:
Cost the Space marines the same as the other ones. I think the bolter should still be their thing, with a sidearm, but Space Marines really never were bad. I might give them the option to take their special weapons even in small 5 man squads if they pay for them or free as they are now when they hit 10 Marines.

Make the Scouts have Move Through cover, scout and MELTABOMBS standard. YES!

Elites:
Never saw it as a weakness for them

HQ:
Chapter specific leaders is Bad ass. Needs to continue. But some of the characters are a little... and I mean JUST a little... lacking. wont take much to shore them up though so I hope they dont go crazy.
Tigurius the Psyker guy definitely needs to be moreworthwhile to take. He doesn't suck as bad now that psyker powers are so cool, but still...

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

 Jancoran wrote:
Heavy Support:
Offer Thunderfire Cannons in groups of 3.

I could see this. It would be nice to not have to choose between taking a second of whatever tank I'm bringing and a second TFC. Other armies do have squads for artillery, so it's not right out there. They might have to do something like limit it to one bolster defense per group. Even then, how many things in your deployment zone are there to bolster.

 Jancoran wrote:
Whirlwinds: Give the whirlwind Multiple Barrage 2

While I have always wondered why the whirl wind looks like an ordnance version of the cyclone missle launcher but only fires one missile, they would have to faq the other marines books so their whirlwinds also fired two shots. The current DA price (20pts cheaper than vanilla) would be too cheap if it fired two shots, but for 85 points, firing two shots would be fine.

 Jancoran wrote:
Troops:
Cost the Space marines the same as the other ones. I think the bolter should still be their thing, with a sidearm, but Space Marines really never were bad. I might give them the option to take their special weapons even in small 5 man squads if they pay for them or free as they are now when they hit 10 Marines.

Pretty much do the same thing they did with dark angels.

 Jancoran wrote:
Make the Scouts have Move Through cover, scout and MELTABOMBS standard. YES!

Scouts have move through cover and scout. Standard meltabombs, probably no.

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

multiple units of scouts dropping from multiple Storms would be cool.

 pwntallica wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

How about something like 1-3 Storms with 1-3 Scout Squads with them?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They need the ability to play different Chapters, and have the rules be representative of those Chapters, without the need for mandatory special characters. It's been the Marine 'Dex's problem since it came out.

They did Chapter Traits once and it royally sucked...

I don't want to see a return of everyone and their mother playing the exact same Imperial-Blood-Fist-Ravens with 3x infiltrating Dev squads and true-grit everywhere for the 'drawback' of no Land Raiders that you were never going to take anyways.

The problem was with the execution, not the idea. The mix and match style didn't work due to some traits being clearly superior, even drawback traits. What they need is simply a page or two that details the founding chapters that do not have their own codices, and put some benefits and drawbacks on there, rather than tie them to special characters. Basing it on the founding chapters is the easiest way to get a set of archetypes going. Even if you make your own chapter and, like Blood Ravens, don't know their founding chapter, pick one that fits your armies playstyle.

Obviously you'll end up with one or two being the most popular, but hey, GW aren't trying to make the game competitive anymore.

I'd like to see an overall "Primarch" trait, such as Imperial Fists and their successors getting Stubborn, plus a minor "Chapter" level trait, that falls in line of something like warlord traits that apply to the entire army. Or maybe have the Chapter level trait replace the Warlord table (but then that opens it up for all kinds of abuse).

Maybe link the chapter traits to the specific Primarch traits? For example, Rogal Dorn's Primarch trait is Stubborn, and from that, there are 3 sub-traits for the chapters, maybe something like Seige Warfare Specialist (+1 Heavy Support FOC, -1 Fast Attack), Veteran Presence (Sternguard, Terminators, or Vanguard are scoring), and Focused on Vengence (Hatred: pick an army).

The key is to make the Primarch sub-traits all desirable with the main Primarch traits only being decent but not great. Since Combat Tactics works so well in 6th, sacrificing that will hopefully reduce the number of cut-paste army lists.

 -Loki- wrote:


The problem was with the execution, not the idea. The mix and match style didn't work due to some traits being clearly superior, even drawback traits. What they need is simply a page or two that details the founding chapters that do not have their own codices, and put some benefits and drawbacks on there, rather than tie them to special characters. Basing it on the founding chapters is the easiest way to get a set of archetypes going. Even if you make your own chapter and, like Blood Ravens, don't know their founding chapter, pick one that fits your armies playstyle.

Obviously you'll end up with one or two being the most popular, but hey, GW aren't trying to make the game competitive anymore.

This ^ 100 times. It was the execution that was the problem. I really hope that a chapter traits system returns for the SM dex. Special characters can add some things but I hate having to take Vulcan in every battle for example if I want to play Salamanders. Or Lysander if I want to play Imperial Fists. The trait system allowed for so much flavour - the table/process that was used just needed to be adjusted. The concept was great.

Jancoran wrote:multiple units of scouts dropping from multiple Storms would be cool.

Anpu42 wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

How about something like 1-3 Storms with 1-3 Scout Squads with them?

I agree that having multiples of them would be beneficial. But what I'm saying is that they are limited by FOC. If it was a choice between squadrons of them or having them as DT, I would prefer DT. You would still have the same number of them, but they wouldn't need to have unit coherency. Being a unit of speeders has it's own pros and cons. Being a single unit means that the enemy can concentrate their fire power on one unit instead of 3, and leave all your scouts foot slogging in the open. It also means you couldn't hop in your LSS and split up to take different objectives or firing positions in different areas. Remember, that the LSS is an open topped version of an already paper thing skimmer.

HOWEVER. They could alternatively have an option for scouts in their profile to take a single LSS as a DT, then in the fast attack section, have their entry allowing them to be in squadrons when taken as FA and not DT. That way you could set it up either way.

I think that would make an interesting army. Have all your troops as scouts, in their dedicated LSS, no longer limited to just 3 of them. Then take some scout bikers for your fast attack. Maybe give your scout bikers locator beacons so the LSS could DS on them if you didn't want them on the table turn 1. Maybe make Telion an IC(or create a scout IC) that could ride in LSS, and give your army a tactic that would work with scouts. Nothing powerful, just a minor force multiplier (maybe something like quicker/reroll reserves for units with scout rule or all units with scout rule have steath). Would give a bunch of flexibility to all scout, or primarily scout armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'd like to see an overall "Primarch" trait, such as Imperial Fists and their successors getting Stubborn, plus a minor "Chapter" level trait, that falls in line of something like warlord traits that apply to the entire army. Or maybe have the Chapter level trait replace the Warlord table (but then that opens it up for all kinds of abuse).

Maybe link the chapter traits to the specific Primarch traits? For example, Rogal Dorn's Primarch trait is Stubborn, and from that, there are 3 sub-traits for the chapters, maybe something like Seige Warfare Specialist (+1 Heavy Support FOC, -1 Fast Attack), Veteran Presence (Sternguard, Terminators, or Vanguard are scoring), and Focused on Vengence (Hatred: pick an army).

The key is to make the Primarch sub-traits all desirable with the main Primarch traits only being decent but not great. Since Combat Tactics works so well in 6th, sacrificing that will hopefully reduce the number of cut-paste army lists.

A system like this actually sounds really good. If it was done right, it could be really solid. You get one from me

 Ventus wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


The problem was with the execution, not the idea. The mix and match style didn't work due to some traits being clearly superior, even drawback traits. What they need is simply a page or two that details the founding chapters that do not have their own codices, and put some benefits and drawbacks on there, rather than tie them to special characters. Basing it on the founding chapters is the easiest way to get a set of archetypes going. Even if you make your own chapter and, like Blood Ravens, don't know their founding chapter, pick one that fits your armies playstyle.

Obviously you'll end up with one or two being the most popular, but hey, GW aren't trying to make the game competitive anymore.

This ^ 100 times. It was the execution that was the problem. I really hope that a chapter traits system returns for the SM dex. Special characters can add some things but I hate having to take Vulcan in every battle for example if I want to play Salamanders. Or Lysander if I want to play Imperial Fists. The trait system allowed for so much flavour - the table/process that was used just needed to be adjusted. The concept was great.

My friend and I used them a lot in 3rd edition, and didn't cheese them. One game I had the trait that allowed me to force an extra turn, while my friend, running Imperial Fists, had the trait that allowed his opponent to force an extra turn. Considering I'd won at turn 5, I used these as a fun way to show his Imperial Fists just not retreating. And also draw out the agonising loss.

There's always going to be people who will cheese the system. Even with fixed chapter traits, there will be people running Ultramarines with Salamanders traits if they want a lot of meltas, flamers and thunder hammers. That doesn't mean it should be taken away from the people who want to use it properly, especially, again, with GW seeming to not care about competitive play in 6th.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storms need to be squadrons

I think the land speeder storm would be better served as a dedicated transport option for scouts. The fact that you really only bring it for it's synergy with scouts, but having it eats up a fast attack slot sucks. Other armies have dedicated transports that are skimmers (some even have fliers), so it's not really out there. Making them squadrons instead would limit their synergy for rapidly redeploying scouts.

How about something like 1-3 Storms with 1-3 Scout Squads with them?

Yeah the storms are really uber cool. Let the storm do for scouts what jumppacks do for Vanguard kind of.

I'd like to see marines with two stormbolters.

Lol. TWO FISTED TO THE VERY END!

Ric Ringo wrote:
I'd like to see marines with two stormbolters.

While SBs are normally a two handed weapon, it might be fun for tactical terminators to swap out their powerfist for a second SB. Not worth it if it just make it twin-linked, but if you got to fire both you would kick out a lot of dakka.

But then, I've never looked at my lists and thought "how can I get more bolter rounds downrange"

Cinematically and from a modeling standpoint it would be cool though...

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'd like to see an overall "Primarch" trait, such as Imperial Fists and their successors getting Stubborn, plus a minor "Chapter" level trait, that falls in line of something like warlord traits that apply to the entire army. Or maybe have the Chapter level trait replace the Warlord table (but then that opens it up for all kinds of abuse).

Maybe link the chapter traits to the specific Primarch traits? For example, Rogal Dorn's Primarch trait is Stubborn, and from that, there are 3 sub-traits for the chapters, maybe something like Seige Warfare Specialist (+1 Heavy Support FOC, -1 Fast Attack), Veteran Presence (Sternguard, Terminators, or Vanguard are scoring), and Focused on Vengence (Hatred: pick an army).

The key is to make the Primarch sub-traits all desirable with the main Primarch traits only being decent but not great. Since Combat Tactics works so well in 6th, sacrificing that will hopefully reduce the number of cut-paste army lists.

I'm in, this could work really well...

And its canon!

All codex SM needs imo is standardised points costs for wargear across all marine codexes that use them i.e. a missile launcher for a dev squad is X points regardless of whether it is in codex space wolves or codex space marines.

Also flakk missiles for dev squads.

Finally make chapter tactics either an option for captains/chapter masters or something you buy with the army for X amount of points without it taking up a force slot.

Then give chaos marines the same option with Legion Tactics.

rohansoldier wrote:
All codex SM needs imo is standardised points costs for wargear across all marine codexes that use them i.e. a missile launcher for a dev squad is X points regardless of whether it is in codex space wolves or codex space marines.

Also flakk missiles for dev squads.

Finally make chapter tactics either an option for captains/chapter masters or something you buy with the army for X amount of points without it taking up a force slot.

Then give chaos marines the same option with Legion Tactics.

Points differences often occur due to balance changes. Special rules etc can affect this.

Also if you did that, you might as well just roll them all into one and get it over with.

CONSISTENCY!!!! Why are so many similar-ly equipped and outfitted models different points (yes, CSM and Grey Hunters, I'm pointing at you)

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
CONSISTENCY!!!! Why are so many similar-ly equipped and outfitted models different points (yes, CSM and Grey Hunters, I'm pointing at you)

What does this have to do with what Codex Space Marines will get in 6th edition? That's a completely different topic.

Yeah. In the new codex, it should be interesting to see how they make Ultramarines the pinultimate codex i nthe universe.

One assumes the Storm Raven will be physically included in the codex. I assume that skyfire devs will be made available.

Since the Storm Raven was made available to Codex Space Marines in Death from the Skies, it's not even an assumption that it'll be in the book. There's no doubt.

And Skyfire Devastators is a given - Flakk Missiles.

I agree with most of the people. (Except the ones who want to nerf my Vulkan! ) The Space Marine codex is, in general, pretty balanced, and not so much in need of an update. A few minor point tweaks here and there. That being said, I would like to see some reliable anti-aircraft, and I would LOVE to see a flyer that doesn't look like a hovering dumpster. I don't really care what the rules for it are, just so long as the model looks good!

 Jimsolo wrote:
I agree with most of the people. (Except the ones who want to nerf my Vulkan! ) The Space Marine codex is, in general, pretty balanced, and not so much in need of an update. A few minor point tweaks here and there. That being said, I would like to see some reliable anti-aircraft, and I would LOVE to see a flyer that doesn't look like a hovering dumpster. I don't really care what the rules for it are, just so long as the model looks good!

And thus Jimsolo damned Space Marine players everywhere with the flying equivalent of Mandrakes...

It's not like marines have ever cared about anything silly like aerodynamics. We've been bolting anti-grav engines onto boxes and couches sine the RT era.

You want sexy and streamlined? Go Eldar. You want to bolt some guns onto a flying box? We're your army!

 Nevelon wrote:
It's not like marines have ever cared about anything silly like aerodynamics. We've been bolting anti-grav engines onto boxes and couches sine the RT era.

You want sexy and streamlined? Go Eldar. You want to bolt some guns onto a flying box? We're your army!

cardboard box at that, our PA is more reliable according to fluff!

GW is going to release new kits for SM whether you like it or not.

A plastic veterans box would be great, maybe a Stern/Vanguard combo?

I would also freak over a plastic terminator character box, just like the SM captain box. But have bits to make a captain, libby, or chappy.

And count on a new vehicle of some sort. I am thinking a new tank of some kind.

 SickSix wrote:
GW is going to release new kits for SM whether you like it or not.

A plastic veterans box would be great, maybe a Stern/Vanguard combo?

I would also freak over a plastic terminator character box, just like the SM captain box. But have bits to make a captain, libby, or chappy.

And count on a new vehicle of some sort. I am thinking a new tank of some kind.

Id like to see the old Relic/venerable to make a comeback. It looked so much better than the current one. But I bet we get an MC of some kind

Ditch a ton of the Ultramarines SC, The tank guy, the Scout guy, etc everyone but Calgar and their Librarian )Tigrus I think?)

Add SC from some other chapters
Blood Ravens (Not my pick but popular so they should be in)
Iron Hands
Black Templars (Helbrect unlocks ability to promote one sergeant to Emperors Champion and gives the neophytes in squads and other Black Templar rules)
Black Dragons (or other cursed founding chapters)
Legion of Damned (SC unlocks them as troops choices)


Chapter Traits
Just little things to make your chapter feel like your own
Basically you pick a Founding, then Seed Chapter, then Battle Tactics, each selection gives you different stuff for instance:

Cursed Founding- Roll on d6 chart for a random buff
Raven Guard- Gives access to Jump Pack HQs
Bolter Drill-Gives bolter drill special rules army wide

something like that obviously playtested for balance and such



Better Wargear for HQ choices again so they feel like your own



General Points Reductions

 SickSix wrote:
GW is going to release new kits for SM whether you like it or not.

A plastic veterans box would be great, maybe a Stern/Vanguard combo?

I would also freak over a plastic terminator character box, just like the SM captain box. But have bits to make a captain, libby, or chappy.

And count on a new vehicle of some sort. I am thinking a new tank of some kind.

Another?

I thought the SM codex was too crowded already...

On the topic of special characters, I have the last few editions of C:SM here, let's see who showed up when...

Ultramarines:
Mareus Calgar (3, 4, 5)
Librarian Tigurius (3, 4, 5)
Chaplain Cassius (4,5)
Cato Sicarius (5)
Sgt. Telion (5)
Sgt. Chronos (5)

Crimson Fists:
Captain Cortez (3)
Pedro Kantor (5)

Black Templars:
Emperor's Champion (3)

Salamaders:
Chaplain Xavier (3)
Vulcan He'stan (5)

Imperial Fists:
Sgt. Lysander (3)
Captain Lysander (4,5)

Raven Guard:
Kayvaan Shrike (4, 5)

White Scars:
Kor'sarro Khan (5)

Of the 1st founding chapters, only the Iron Hands are lacking a character. Two characters have been dropped, Cortez and Xavier, but both were replaced with new special characters from their chapters. "New" being used loosely in regards to Kantor, as some of us recall his battle at the farm in the old RT days.

If they were going to trim some characters to make room for new ones, I'm not sure who would go. If they implemented a custom chapter system based on captains, I could see a few of them going away as specials, replaced with build-your-own equivalents. But I don't want to see chapters lacking representation. The Ultramarine sergeants could be trimmed. Telion would be missed, don't think anyone would care about Chronos. He needs a major re-work anyway. Cassius has a lot of the modern flavor of the ulramarines. Plus if you file the name off, his stats fit the fluff of most of the other chapters.

There are 6 founding chapters that get lumped into C:SM. The Crimson Fists also get an honorary spot from the RT days. I'd like to see a better representation. Maybe something like one captain/chapter master plus one "other" from each. If you need to re-brand some characters with different fluff, but keep the same rules, that's fine. Telion might work even better as a Raven Guard sergeant, Chronos can ride with the Iron Hands.

I'd also like to see a special character MotF, as that's the one HQ not represented in the basic codex.

'Make your own chapter', less Ultramarines, cheaper HQ choices (COME ON, A CHAOS LORD IS CHEAPER THAN A CAPTAIN AND DOES THE SAME THING!!), points readjustment, better Venerable Dreads.. In general, just a bit of fine-tuning, maybe an extra unit would be cool (no idea what) and some non-Ultramarines Honour Guard would be nice!!

Count me in for a "chapter traits" system. I've always said that Codex: Space Marines shouldn't be Codex: Ultramarines. What it really needs to do is encompass the codex-compliant chapters. Non-codex chapters obviously get their own books, like Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves... and Black Templars. They're not a codex chapter and GW has said they won't "squat" another army.

The captain could be a viable unit if his options let you pick flavorful chapter traits. Put your captain on a bike, bike squads become scoring (if not necessarily troops) and boom, you're now playing White Scars. Do the same with jump packs and you can play Raven Guard. Pedro Kantor already does this with Sternguard but it shouldn't be tied to a named character specifically.

I think the core rules of the units feel fine the way they are, bar a points adjustment for inevitable power creep, but I'd like to see a more flavorful option system. I don't want to play Codex: Ultramarines.

In my opinion the standard marine with a bolter needs to be more effective, maybe give Lysander's bolter drill to all standard marines as a new special rule for vanilla marines only, I remember just before 6th edition people talking about a tweaking to rapid fire, as I don't have the rulebook on me now I'm not sure how that turned out. But just to get something more out of the standard bolter would be nice, apart from that I agree with everything else above.

 Toasty wrote:
In my opinion the standard marine with a bolter needs to be more effective, maybe give Lysander's bolter drill to all standard marines as a new special rule for vanilla marines only, I remember just before 6th edition people talking about a tweaking to rapid fire, as I don't have the rulebook on me now I'm not sure how that turned out. But just to get something more out of the standard bolter would be nice, apart from that I agree with everything else above.

Standard marines with bolters are about as effective as they're going to get, especially with their ATSKNF, which is a pretty good rule to be fair, in fact, it's really good, and, a troop choice with a 3+ armour save isn't something to complain about..

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Does that NEED to be the same? It's not like the cod exes all need to have the same stuff, at least chaos has marks that make an army different and give it flavor

Predators with punisher cannons!

To be honest, most chapters can be differentiated just by unit selection within the core codex.

You can still have a Salamander army without Vulcan. Just load up on fluffy choices. It's nice to have special rules and characters to reinforce the style of play of a certain chapter, but unnecessary.

BrotherVord wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Does that NEED to be the same? It's not like the cod exes all need to have the same stuff, at least chaos has marks that make an army different and give it flavor

Except only one matters, and that's Nurgle.

An Iron Hands SC that lets you trade Combat Tactics for a 6++ ("But that wouldn't help their Termi...Oh, right, Iron Hands aren't supposed to have a lot of Terminators").

A Deathwatch SC who lets you trade Combat Tactics for Preferred Enemy (Xenos) and Hatred (Xenos).

Flakk Missiles.

reaper with no name wrote:
An Iron Hands SC that lets you trade Combat Tactics for a 6++ ("But that wouldn't help their Termi...Oh, right, Iron Hands aren't supposed to have a lot of Terminators").

A Deathwatch SC who lets you trade Combat Tactics for Preferred Enemy (Xenos) and Hatred (Xenos).

Flakk Missiles.

That first one is pretty dang poor. Sisters of Battle has it with Shield of Faith, and it doesn't do em much good (They also get it on vehicles too)

reaper with no name wrote:
An Iron Hands SC that lets you trade Combat Tactics for a 6++ ("But that wouldn't help their Termi...Oh, right, Iron Hands aren't supposed to have a lot of Terminators").

A Deathwatch SC who lets you trade Combat Tactics for Preferred Enemy (Xenos) and Hatred (Xenos).

Flakk Missiles.

Change the Iron Hands one to a 6+ FNP.

What I can see getting changed:

Librarian, Chaplain, Captain, MOTF price drop.

Dreadnoughts getting a price drop (to 100pts, like other new books)

Slight price drops to Tactical Marines.

Drop Pods and Land Raider troop capacity getting dropped to fall in line with other codices.

Vindicator getting a slight price increase.

Devastators getting a price drop.

Whirlwinds getting a price drop.

Techmarines getting the Dark Angels treatment

What I want to see:

Addition of a second level of Chaplain.

Captains able to take an upgrade to make different units scoring. (IE, master of the first company, make tactical terminators scoring.)

Landspeeders getting an upgrade price drop.

Iron Hands special character (even though i dont play IH), seriously, that chapter needs some love.

Space marines needs a good reasonably priced HQ. At present there is just the librarian and he is (just) OK. Certainly not good.

Pretty new to the hobby and sensing the fact that I'm in camp Ultramarines means I should start wearing a bell round my neck!

Even so would like to see a Ventris captain entry... though not oblivious to the fact that characters are ubermarine heavy.

shame on the person suggesting losing telion.

maybe more options to build a captain with x traits from a catalogue might suit everybody!

BrotherVord wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Does that NEED to be the same? It's not like the cod exes all need to have the same stuff, at least chaos has marks that make an army different and give it flavor

Chaos Marks might give it "flavor" but it doesn't really change things. Alpha Legion are not going to march across the field shooting, and the marks do not show that Legion or how sneaky they are, the Marks do not let me infiltrate. The best you can do is use cultists and say they were traitors turned to the cause and are doing the brunt of the fighting, but then you still need the Alpha Legion itself somewhere.. Word Bearers should be able to summon demons, Night Lords who had a rules write up in a Chapter Approved got night fighting, and stealth, but lost a few things. Iron Warriors like Iron Hands should have something to let you play them, for what they are. Using more tanks, other tanks from IG Codex, or upgrades to show them being part robot or something.

But on topic, what does C:SM need? Well it will get flyers, and frak missiles.
It could use less Ultramarine Special Characters. Not that it's UltraSmurf hate, it just seems that they gave a couple of chapters one guy, and then the Smurfs got a dozen more. Even if it's Nova Marines, and Hollowing Griffins, there should be more love for other chapters. Or even more characters for chapters that people enjoy playing. I know some people who want more White Scares characters, and I would be happy with more Imperial Fist characters. I might even buy more Marines and play two chapters in the case of more Imperial Fist love, and not just swap my Black Templars out for Vanilla Marines as often.

It could use less Ultramarine Special Characters. Not that it's UltraSmurf hate, it just seems that they gave a couple of chapters one guy, and then the Smurfs got a dozen more. E

Because it used to be Codex: Ultramarines. They actually removed several things from the previous 4th edition (Honor guard used to be Ultramarine only, as well as Mcragg War Veterans, which were kinda like sternguard). And added far more additional SC's for the other chapters.

BrotherVord wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Does that NEED to be the same? It's not like the cod exes all need to have the same stuff, at least chaos has marks that make an army different and give it flavor

Only 4/9 Legions are cult ones, so that leave 5/9 Legions we can assume to be identical vanilla and generic. Of the 4 cult legions only 1-2 are anywhere near competitive.

C:SM had no trouble using Lysander in every custom chapter under the sun, so by your logic no changes need to be made.

MarsNZ wrote:
C:SM had no trouble using Lysander in every custom chapter under the sun, so by your logic no changes need to be made.

The change should be removing the need to have a Special Character do it. Even if they simply have a section that has varying Chapter Tactics. Ultramarines are the standard, the other have different rules, like now, just not tied to a character.

 -Loki- wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
C:SM had no trouble using Lysander in every custom chapter under the sun, so by your logic no changes need to be made.

The change should be removing the need to have a Special Character do it. Even if they simply have a section that has varying Chapter Tactics. Ultramarines are the standard, the other have different rules, like now, just not tied to a character.

Of even tie it to Captains so that people have a reason to buy Captains over Librarians.

Looking at the 'design your own character' thread I eagerly await what balanced and well thought out reasons C:SM players make for adding EW and FnP to everything.

MarsNZ wrote:
Looking at the 'design your own character' thread I eagerly await what balanced and well thought out reasons C:SM players make for adding EW and FnP to everything.

I wouldn't go that far. Saga of the Bear on Space Wolf characters is dumb enough as it is.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
An Iron Hands SC that lets you trade Combat Tactics for a 6++ ("But that wouldn't help their Termi...Oh, right, Iron Hands aren't supposed to have a lot of Terminators").

A Deathwatch SC who lets you trade Combat Tactics for Preferred Enemy (Xenos) and Hatred (Xenos).

Flakk Missiles.

That first one is pretty dang poor. Sisters of Battle has it with Shield of Faith, and it doesn't do em much good (They also get it on vehicles too)

Play against heldrakes or the new Tau and say that.

I'd like to see chapter specific abilities not require a special character to get. Either a traits system, or just a straight points cost you have to pay to get a specific chapter's rules. And if they do use a traits system, I want to see real downsides involved. Some of those negative traits you could take would have no effect at all if it was something you didn't use in your army anyway.

I don't mind Ultramarines being the posterboys for the codex, as they are supposed to be representative of a codex chapter to begin with (their Primarch wrote it, after all).

I would like to see something done with Tactical Marines. Not sure what, though. Maybe give them the Rapid Fire rule from the Horus Heresy legion army list.

There's a lot of hate for Ultramarines characters, but at least a few other chapters are allowed to share the codex now. Codex Ultramarines anyone? Yeah, now imagine if CA, C:BA, or C:SW was scrapped to let some other chapters in, there would be uproar. It is still C:UM, it was just renamed.

What the codex needs is points adjustments, some anti-air and something to shut up the people who moan about not wanted a Codex chapter in the book designed for them.