so, after playing a few games, I found out that the black knights seem to die really easily. granted, I don't have a dark shroud, but so far they died to either bolter fire or massed splinter rifles. Any help?

Get a Darkshroud.

Failing that get a banner of fortitude.

Failing that field additional threats that the enemy has to deal with.

If you do number 3 right they won't even fire on your black knights.

what constitues as bigger threats?

-Terminators dropping within 7" turn 1.
-Vindicator tank
-melta attack bikes or combat squad 2x melta bikes scouted forward to enemy postion
-Banner of devastation ravenwing command squad
-Run two black knight units

There are more if you want allies and I might of missed some.

Also don't forget to charge the enemy if they are good at shooting. You should only even get shot at turn 1 bar any accidental overkills (not counting overwatch). You can always hit and run out of combat the opponents assault phase so you can then shoot yourself.

but what about surviving the combat?

What are you charging?

IG charge; the melee will be nothing compared to the shooting.

Termies; do not charge unless it is a single heavy weapon termie.

Normally you need to be a bully. I know it is tempting to shoot and charge the big TH/SS termie unit but consider going after the devastator squad that you can turbo boost to first turn. If you are playing Ravenwing then you should just ignore scary cc units and move out of charge range.

Aright, thanks. So far, I only had 3 games with the black knights, so I might need to get more Exp. in. the battles I had them in so far...

1st game the 6 man knight unit radded a big gargoyle squad, where an LRC took it down quickly. They later survived waves of gaunts and went on to get me slay the warlord

2nd game the same unit radded two space wolf squads (they where close together) and I was dumb and didn't charge them. They ended up being maldictioned/boltered to death after 4 drop pods came in.

3rd game: outflanked on some eldar, took out a Reaver skimmer with four plasma shots, then took 20+ poison splinter rifles to the face, killing all but one and an interrigator chaplain

Yeah sounds like you used them pretty well in the first game and then forgot you could assault.

If you have a choice try to go after something you can charge and then hit and run out of unless the kill is strategically worth your black knights.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
so, after playing a few games, I found out that the black knights seem to die really easily. granted, I don't have a dark shroud, but so far they died to either bolter fire or massed splinter rifles. Any help?

A Darkshroud doesn't help against small arms fire.

How does taking saves on a 2+ versus a 3+ not help?

Though honestly that is only when turbo boosting.

 ansacs wrote:
How does taking saves on a 2+ versus a 3+ not help?

Though honestly that is only when turbo boosting.

if they are turbo boosting they are not shooting plasma/rad. A 4++ cover and a 3++ are about the same, all it really means is crap ap volume of fire is going to get dumped into them. better off just buying a 2nd unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
-Terminators dropping within 7" turn 1.
-Vindicator tank
-melta attack bikes or combat squad 2x melta bikes scouted forward to enemy postion
-Banner of devastation ravenwing command squad
-Run two black knight units

There are more if you want allies and I might of missed some.

Also don't forget to charge the enemy if they are good at shooting. You should only even get shot at turn 1 bar any accidental overkills (not counting overwatch). You can always hit and run out of combat the opponents assault phase so you can then shoot yourself.

Top priority targets are the devastation banner 1st, then black knights/ravenwing command squads/same thing really.

Vindicators, DS termies, and regular bikes=problems, but no need to panic.

If the DA player starts a shooting phase with the dev banner and rad grenades to drop T you're going to have a bad day.

You are aware that they're toughness 5 right? I agree that the drop easily when over whelmed but mine usually shrug off bolter fire pretty easily.

 Satan's Little Helper wrote:
You are aware that they're toughness 5 right? I agree that the drop easily when over whelmed but mine usually shrug off bolter fire pretty easily.

They faster than terminators to bolter fire and cost about the same.

They cost the same as 3 tac marines and the 3 tac marines can take av average of 18 bolter hits to drop compared to 9 bolter hits for a black knight.

Bolters ac ml testla of all shapes/sizes anything that does wounds at range=good to dump in them. They are a wellbalanced unit that is fragile when you consider their cost.

Knights work if you roll a good BALANCED DA list. If you RW, I'd run 'em as a finisher move, not a first in. They shine more that way, and survive more.

 Sirmauz wrote:
Knights work if you roll a good BALANCED DA list. If you RW, I'd run 'em as a finisher move, not a first in. They shine more that way, and survive more.

oh, that makes sense more. So to counter the squishy-ness of them to bolter fire, I should let them hang back to avoid getting shot at, then drive them like a spear tip into the enemy? and would outflankinghelp, or does that just cause more problems?

We have two DA players at our FLGS. Both of them tried raven wing right away when the codex came out. The first got sick of them after about a month and went back to deathwing. The other punished himself until just last week when he finally gave up on them.

Yes, they're too squishy. In the end, you're just not bringing enough models with a 3+ armor save. The one advantage you get is with speed, but you could just take teleporting shoot-while-arriving dudes with a 2+ armor save and the ability to take 3++ shields in front.

Really? I've had the opposite experience, with Raven Wing doing very well, followed closely by LRC and Dev banner spam. Death Wing has been getting tabled almost every single game. Which is a shame, since every time I see the models I want to buy them, but they just seem so...bad.
Whereas raven wing puts out brutal damage.

The problem is that a 3+ armor save and a 5++ cover save aren't as good as a 2+ armor save and a 5++ invul save. You can spend more points to upgrade the ravenwing's durability, but then you could just spend more points on more terminators (or just buy storm shields).

Plus, there's the firepower deficit as well. Twin-linked bolters aren't as good as storm bolters. Chainswords and crow hammers aren't as good as power fists and thunderhammers. Termies also get cyclones and assault cannons, and they use them twin-linked on the turn they arrive, and can split fire, none of which is true for the bikes.

Then you add on those few little humiliating things, like crashing your bikes in difficult terrain, and being unable to reach objectives up in ruins.

Don't get me wrong, bike armies are pretty cool, but bikes, in the end, are really just a variation on assault marines. Fast, but not much killier, and not much more durable for being a fair bit more expensive.

In the case of black knights it's 4++, and if Sammeal joins a unit that's also 4++. Not to mention that they're T5 which drastically increases their resilience to small arms. They're about as resilient to small arms as terminators. Also when the darkshroud is around the coversave can't be drowned in small arms until it fails the armour save like the SS can.
Relentless Salvo 4 TL bolters are better than storm bolters. The RWCS can quite comfortably pass the banner buff to 2-4 units in one turn. They can forego their own shooting in order to flat out and get different units in range of the bannner.
While RW is obviously less good in assault they also have hit & run, meaning that's less of an issue. Also they can't be bogged down like the terminators. Just as CML and Assault cannons are good, plasma talons are good too. The ability to grab objectives on the other side of the table late game is absolutely fantastic, something that the terminators don't have a chance with.

Then you add on those few little humiliating things, like crashing your bikes in difficult terrain, and being unable to reach objectives up in ruins.

This is quite true, I always slap an objective on the 1st floor of a ruin against RW. I do however think you're underestimating them though.

I'm not sure about knights, but regular Ravenwing squads are brutal in objective missions. Seven model squad can be divided into three, fast moving, scoring units. Yes, individual units are easy to kill, but you're forced to divide your fire. Also, combined with dakka banner, they can shoot a lot. LR crusader with the banner inside and a lot of bikes is a nasty combination.

Griddlelol wrote:In the case of black knights it's 4++, and if Sammeal joins a unit that's also 4++. Not to mention that they're T5 which drastically increases their resilience to small arms. They're about as resilient to small arms as terminators. Also when the darkshroud is around the coversave can't be drowned in small arms until it fails the armour save like the SS can.

T5 Sv3 dies to a boltgun hit on a .11, while T4 Sv2 dies on a .08. Terminators are still better. Meanwhile, cover saves are ignorable (say hello to the bale flamer), and is only 4+ compared to 3++, and the terminators can get upgraded with FNP, which makes them much better against small arms fire to boot.

Griddlelol wrote: The ability to grab objectives on the other side of the table late game is absolutely fantastic, something that the terminators don't have a chance with.

They are more mobile, yes, but they're less useful for claiming objectives if they're dead, or run off the table at high speeds. Plus, you can always just drop terminators straight onto objectives and then hold them. Not as good as being able to do cross-board pounces, sure, but not THAT much worse.

The baleflamer is a horrible weakness for RW. I'm not going to contest that. As is the colossus and markerlight riptide.

Everything you've said makes perfect sense, but there's still this nagging feeling at the back of my head that I struggle with RW lists, but DW lists are a cakewalk for me to deal with. I can't quantify it easily. It's the same for TDA GK too. Something about slow moving, 2+ armour that is just not that good. Maybe because so much of my list brings ap2 or better weapons, or maybe because I see bike armies (RW is the only one I play against) so rarely.

 Ailaros wrote:

T5 Sv3 dies to a boltgun hit on a .11, while T4 Sv2 dies on a .08.

That's a silly comparison; terminators also cost about 60% more than a biker.

60% more expensive, but 40% more durable before you add FNP and storm shields.

Griddelol, I think you're seeing with ravenwing something elusive that I've been struggling to explain with my hellhound guard army. There is some X factor to fast units that I haven't quite pinned down yet that does make it more difficult to figure out what to do in the movement phase against them, while fighting against deepstriking terminators is certainly more straightforward.

I think what sort of tips it, though, is that deathwing are elites that count as troops that count as fast attack. The fact that they arrive anywhere on the board turn 1, possibly without scattering (in a mixed list), and then unload two turns worth of killing power before your opponent gets to react really mitigates the drawbacks of not being able to turboboost.

That said, I will grant that, due to my very nebulous understanding of how speed actually helps a player in this game outside of concentration of killing power, that there might be some sort of secret sauce that makes up for the differences... somehow.

Not in the hands of a player that can really make the most of this mysterious force, though, ravenwing just does less damage and sees its units die faster than the much harder and slightly killier terminators.

How many Knights do you put into one squad? I got 3 and they always seem to die to overwatch fire...

I've been running 4 due to points limitations. Since I play DW I expect them to die, they're there for the teleport homer and turn 2 overwatch fodder. The fact they're half decent in melee as well as shooting means that people have a choice between shooting the termi's or black knights although I've not had a game yet where I want to keep them alive for much longer.
It's nice when they stay alive longer, but I don't expect it.

I'm planning on running a 6 man squad with maybe 2 Grenade launchers.

I'm not taking Alison's stuff to heart, though. Half of it is because I'm buying lots of RW and don't want to feel my purchases are always going to waste, and the other half is that his explanations don't make sense to someone stupid like me.

and what do you mean about FNP? it's not Terminator exclusive

I can't speak for all of what Ailaros is saying, but one point that might not have come across is that having a Darkshroud is no benefit to the Black Knights against small arms fire. Even with a Darkshroud the Knight's 3+ armor save is going to be better than their cover save, unless they're turbo boosting.

In most cases when your Black Knights are within small arms range for the enemy, you are in Talon/charge range yourself so you won't be turbo boosting to get all the way down to the 2+ cover save.

They've worked best for me in a line breaker role against gun or mech lines and as mop up against MSU armies, but in most cases they don't live through the game.

You *could* spend 205 points giving FNP to a lot of T5 things. You could also spend 185 giving those T5 things 4 times the damage output at 24".

 Griddlelol wrote:

Then you add on those few little humiliating things, like crashing your bikes in difficult terrain, and being unable to reach objectives up in ruins.

This is quite true, I always slap an objective on the 1st floor of a ruin against RW. I do however think you're underestimating them though.

Actually, Black Knights have skilled rider which makes them auto-pass dangerous terrain. It might be beneficial to sneak these guys through more terrain heavy sections of the table.

I'm thinking of using the Black knights as the outriders/ Final strike against the enemy. My idea is that they turnbo boost around the flank while the main army pushes up. They do sound perfect as the last blow to cripple an army.

Here are some numbers that may shed some light on the subject of Ravenwing vs. Deathwing:

In all analysis which follows, I assume the units are armed as follows:
Ravenwing: 5 man squad 2 Meltaguns (31 points per model)
Black Knights: 3 man squad 1 Grenade Launcher (42 points per model)
Deathwing Terminators: 5 man squad 1 Cyclone Launcher (49 points per model)

Note that I am not assuming the units are affected by the Banner of Devastation.

First, resilience per point. You should read these numbers as "Number of shots needed to kill 100 points of this model". For reference, a standard 2 Meltagun + Wolf Banner 10 man Grey Hunter squad clocks in at 54.5 Bolter shots per 100 points.

Ravenwing Biker:
43.5 Bolter
116.1 Lasgun
8.7 Plasma (BS4)
23.2 Autocannon (BS3)

Black Knight:
32.1 Bolter
85.7 Lasgun
8.6 Plasma
17.1 Autocannon

Deathwing Terminator:
36.7 Bolter
73.5 Lasgun
5.5 Plasma
29.4 Autocannon

So Ailaros is right that the Terminators are more durable against small arms than the Black Knights, but it isn't by a lot. Furthermore, if you go all TH/SS, the Bolter figures are very close, with only a 1 shot advantage for the Terminators.

Next, shooting offense. These numbers should be interpreted as "Points of target killed per 100 points of models' shooting". I assume each squad fires with their best weapons, so the Meltaguns, Cyclone launcher, etc. are averaged in. For the Grenade Launcher, I assume frag (with 2 hits on average) against GEQ, and Krak against MEQ and TEQ. Note that this is underestimating the shooting power of the Black Knights, as they will obviously be using Rad Grenades most of the time, but I can't really factor those in.

All targets are out of cover.

Ravenwing Bikers:
19.1 points of GEQ
20.6 points of MEQ
30.6 points of TEQ

Black Knights:
14.4 GEQ
42.3 MEQ
68.6 TEQ

Deathwing Terminators:
10.9 GEQ
10.8 MEQ
12.1 TEQ

Pretty clear wing for Ravenwing, unsurprisingly. The Banner will help the Deathwing vs. the Black Knights, but not the regular bikes.

Finally, CC offense per point. I assume all squads get the charge, and that all models are able to strike. I also assume all Bikers get a Hammer of Wrath hit.

Ravenwing Bikers:
16.7 GEQ
17.2 MEQ
21.5 TEQ

Black Knights:
24.7 GEQ
31.7 MEQ
45.0 TEQ

Deathwing Terminators:
16.3 GEQ
37.6 MEQ
62.6 TEQ

So, the Terminators are best against Power Armor and up, the Bikes better against GEQ. Having 4 attacks plus HoW really helps the Black Knights.

Once you mix in how crazy fast the Ravenwing is, they seem a lot better on paper. Obviously, the Dragon is the real problem. Tau maybe, but it seems like the way to beat Tau is to assault a flank, which should be a Ravenwing specialty.

It also seems like the Black Knights should be a force multiplier, not the main element of the force. The regular Bikers are obviously more resilient against everything, and also leverage that nasty Banner of Devastation. There does appear to be a great synergy between the two units, actually, as the combination of Rad Grenade + 4 Bolter shots per model will kill a lot of stuff.

Rad also plays with ID thresholds, which can be very useful.

The unit isn't that squishy when it comes to RPP, butt it's slightly squishy and draws a lot of agro from opponents with a good sense of target priority.

Dragons can be somewhat mitigated by keeping them near a power field gen for a 4+ invo, there is probably already one in the land raider holding the dev banner, but the dragon can couner the mitatigate with careful positioning to snipe the rad grenade launcher. it all comes down to who best positions their fast units.

Good points, but I don't think the PFG is a solution to the Helldrake. Each model needs to be within 3" of the Landraider to get the save. So what you gain from the 4++ you give back from bunching up.

thanks Mr. Eco for the in depth look. the points where a little wrong, but overall it was good! I think the black knights should have ran at least five for the simulation, to keep it even with the 5 bikes/ 5 termies.

the only problem would for me is that the knights need to get there to rad a unit and then take it down. Turbo-boosting would help, and i guess i should make liberal use of cover.

Should one squad of 6 be lead by a chaplain, too?

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem is that a 3+ armor save and a 5++ cover save aren't as good as a 2+ armor save and a 5++ invul save. You can spend more points to upgrade the ravenwing's durability, but then you could just spend more points on more terminators (or just buy storm shields).

Plus, there's the firepower deficit as well. Twin-linked bolters aren't as good as storm bolters. Chainswords and crow hammers aren't as good as power fists and thunderhammers. Termies also get cyclones and assault cannons, and they use them twin-linked on the turn they arrive, and can split fire, none of which is true for the bikes.

Then you add on those few little humiliating things, like crashing your bikes in difficult terrain, and being unable to reach objectives up in ruins.

Don't get me wrong, bike armies are pretty cool, but bikes, in the end, are really just a variation on assault marines. Fast, but not much killier, and not much more durable for being a fair bit more expensive.

The dark shroud is 80 points. Cheap as chips. I take two BK squads, dark shroud, and banner of fortitude command squad. Turbo boost 1st turn, and with that manoeuvrability you can choose spots that minimise incoming fire. Furthermore, the BKs can pick and choose what I want to kill turn 2. Bk’s resilience is the same as a terminator squad with an apothecary that turn. The FNP acts like an invulnerable save to everything apart from S10 and some other random bits and bobs, whilst S8 still kills FNP for termies. Turn 2 onwards BK’s can hide in combat and hit and run out. Bk’s kick out so much more firepower you cannot even compare the two. Storm bolters are better than TL bolters but they are not a patch on a melta guns which are carried by a lot of bikes.
Once terminator squads deep strike in they are slow and useless. It’s hard to get them in combat and they get picked apart particularly by manoeuvrable armies like RW. My RW spank terminator heavy armies all day every day.

edit: the best solution for the drake is FNP. T/L plasmas pluck them out the sky, once they've alpha struck.
I think your analysis of bike armies is true for the space marine codex. I have been using a bike army for 3 years and found it very hard to win. I’m not a good player but I’ve got a really good record with RW which has got to tell you something. RW armies kill things fast with dakka banner builds, banner of fortitude builds or even without a banner (heresy!) IMO RW are amongst the most powerful builds at the moment.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:


oh, that makes sense more. So to counter the squishy-ness of them to bolter fire, I should let them hang back to avoid getting shot at, then drive them like a spear tip into the enemy? and would outflankinghelp, or does that just cause more problems?

Pretty much man. They roll hard, but the killer is you A: must depend on 6's for rending, and B: you are VERY specialized. The BKs are a great finisher, and if you have luck, outflanking CAN be a killer. If you have luck. I rarely depend on it though, so be ready for those gambits to fail.
A RW army is grand and fun to run, but it IS a difficult list facing anything MEQ or DE. Their dang poison man, it ruins the 5 toughness. MEQ armies that KNOW you are RW tend to haul in HB and Melta, or (one of my favorite "douche" moves) run lots of Scout Snipers. LOL.... On the Fluff side though, man, I love RW, and I really enjoy playing against and with them. For a tourney winner though, dude, you really gotta go balanced in 6th. Overbalanced armies tend to overextend and get cut in half. The GL bikes WILL help a heck of a lot dude, and if possible, run a command squad with a banner to help out dude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and BTW Ailaros, do you even Skilled Rider?????? Or TL Plas Talon? The heck man, RW bikers laugh laugh LAUGH at Terrain (auto pass) and +1 Jink, PLUS BK shoot 2 S7 AP2 Relentless RapidFire LOL TERMARMOR shots each. They aren't the end all be all, but dude, they are seriously amazing. (oh, and hammer of wrath, etc etc. )

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
thanks Mr. Eco for the in depth look. the points where a little wrong, but overall it was good! I think the black knights should have ran at least five for the simulation, to keep it even with the 5 bikes/ 5 termies.

the only problem would for me is that the knights need to get there to rad a unit and then take it down. Turbo-boosting would help, and i guess i should make liberal use of cover.

Should one squad of 6 be lead by a chaplain, too?

To clarify, the numbers don't really depend much on squad size, except that squad size determines the average cost of upgrades. The points seem wrong because they are the average value for a model including the listed upgrades. So, the points for the Deathwing include the Cyclone launcher, etc.

oh okay. but the RW grenade launcher is free fyi


I think I need more than 3 odd games with them. they already did more than two vindicators though.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
oh okay. but the RW grenade launcher is free fyi

Correct. Black Knights are 42 points per model base.

Also, don't forget the Standard of Fortitude. Biker T5's laughing at most of the hits that actually wound because they FNP and reroll failed morale, fantastic.

I just can't agree with you guys, a 5+ FnP does not make any bike any less crunchy. Yeah you'll save 2 out of every 6 deaths, but those other 4 that you didn't make have gutted your squad and removed their ability to fight. You've also pinned your hopes to an 85 point banner that is screaming towards your opponent just asking to get sniped or exploded with a large weapon. Beyond that running a banner list limits your flexibility, even the FnP banner is only 12" radius which means anyone not part of the charge is getting no benefit. Pure RW isn't a TAC list, there are many hard counters to it. If you're playing friendlies then an RW list works, but flyers, blobs, and poison are easy counters as is anything fielding AV14 which the bikes struggle with.

andystache wrote:
I just can't agree with you guys, a 5+ FnP does not make any bike any less crunchy. Yeah you'll save 2 out of every 6 deaths, but those other 4 that you didn't make have gutted your squad and removed their ability to fight. You've also pinned your hopes to an 85 point banner that is screaming towards your opponent just asking to get sniped or exploded with a large weapon. Beyond that running a banner list limits your flexibility, even the FnP banner is only 12" radius which means anyone not part of the charge is getting no benefit. Pure RW isn't a TAC list, there are many hard counters to it. If you're playing friendlies then an RW list works, but flyers, blobs, and poison are easy counters as is anything fielding AV14 which the bikes struggle with.

How are blobs a hard counter? Seems like a nice place to hide in combat during your opponents turn before bailing out with hit and run.
Also with the amount of fast melta in most RW lists armor 14 seems less like a hard counter and more like inefficient points spent to me.

MrEconomics wrote:stuff

You calculated the durability of terminators without storm shields, and the durability of what you're shooting at assuming no cover (and once again, no storm shields)? Of course ravenwing is going to look good if you skew the assumptions against everything else. And, I'd note, the deathwing TRASHES the bikers in close combat. Being a tiny bit better against GEq isn't much of a consolation.

I'd also note that "shots to kill X points" while useful, is also a little misleading. It's missing the fact that you can cram a lot more points into a smaller footprint. The speed of the bikes does help with force concentration, but being able to achieve so much local points superiority in a single place with a single squad is an advantage that's being overlooked.

 Ailaros wrote:

MrEconomics wrote:stuff

You calculated the durability of terminators without storm shields, and the durability of what you're shooting at assuming no cover (and once again, no storm shields)? Of course ravenwing is going to look good if you skew the assumptions against everything else. And, I'd note, the deathwing TRASHES the bikers in close combat. Being a tiny bit better against GEq isn't much of a consolation.

I'd also note that "shots to kill X points" while useful, is also a little misleading. It's missing the fact that you can cram a lot more points into a smaller footprint. The speed of the bikes does help with force concentration, but being able to achieve so much local points superiority in a single place with a single squad is an advantage that's being overlooked.

I am happy to give you numbers assuming Storm Shields, which obviously only affects the Plasma numbers. And I seem to recall that you are constantly reminding people about focus fire in 6th edition, so one can't rely on getting cover saves any more. At any rate, cover is going to affect the GEQ numbers equally across the board. I will also re-run the MEQ killing numbers assuming 5++ cover, and for TEQ assuming Storm Shields.

RPP for Plasma:
Ravenwing Bikers 8.7, Black Knights 8.6, Deathwing 10.0.

Shooting Offense against MEQ:
Ravenwing Bikers 16.8 Black Knights 29.8 Deathwing 7.9

Shooting Offense against TEQ:
Ravenwing Bikers 21.0 Black Knights 37.2 Deathwing 11.0

It's still the case that the Ravenwing outshoots Deathwing, which should not be controversial.

When you add the Ranged and CC numbers together, you get 34 points of MEQ killed for Ravenwing, 61.5 points of MEQ for Black Knights, and 45 points for Deathwing. Against TEQ with Storm Shields, 42.5 for Ravenwing, 71.6 for Black Knights, and 67.8 for Deathwing.

I freely admit these figures are a bit misleading, as you would need brass balls to charge TEQ with the Black Knights unless the target squad was pretty depleted. Still, while the Deathwing can pummel the Ravenwing in CC, how are they going to catch them? Ravenwing can fight from 18"+ away easily. Also, 100 points of Deathwing are only killing 13.1 points of Ravenwing a turn from shooting. That works out to around 1 model per turn per squad. Local force superiority is great and all, but it isn't helpful if all your shooting simply can't put down the enemy.

this debate seems to be heating up. let me get my popcorn and soda

A unit with storm shields is gonna deep strike in and look menacing. If RW have enough firepower nearby they kill them, if not they drive away and foot slogging terminators play no further part in the battle. RW are a hard counter for terminator heavy armies and AV14 heavy armies. They suffer to anyone who can bring ignore cover AP3 (chaos, tau, some guard) but you should be hiding in combat from turn 2 onwards anyway with a lot of your army. You can also hide behind terrain almost anywhere on the board with turbo boost and scout move so you can limit the amount of fire power coming your way. Bikes agility and the abillity to premeasure ranges mean you should be able to influence what heavy weapons can shoot you. If the enemy cannot see you they cannot shoot you (with the exception of barrage weapons of course)

 Eldarain wrote:
How are blobs a hard counter? Seems like a nice place to hide in combat during your opponents turn before bailing out with hit and run.
Also with the amount of fast melta in most RW lists armor 14 seems less like a hard counter and more like inefficient points spent to me.

Well your average IG blob is going to survive the Talons and the attacks, then they're going to hit back and they're going to hit back for two turns. Marine armor is generally great, but a mob of 20-30 boys will make short work if you haven't whittled them down substantially. Even with fast melta you have to get there, against IG that means running through lots of guns, against Marines you're charging a Land Raider and if it's a DA Raider you're probably looking at a 4++ on it. The BKs suffer from the same problems that all small units do they can be overwhelmed by large numbers of small things. If you kill 10 out of 50 IG in one turn you've killed 20% of his unit, to inflict similar casualties against you he only needs to kill 2 bikes in a full strength squad for a 20% rate and by the numbers that's 6 wounds inflicted.

I firmly believe they have a place in every DA army, just not as the backbone. The BKs are really Elites choices with bikes and that's where they excel eliminating other Elite units.

EDIT:

 jamin484 wrote:
A unit with storm shields is gonna deep strike in and look menacing. If RW have enough firepower nearby they kill them, if not they drive away and foot slogging terminators play no further part in the battle. RW are a hard counter for terminator heavy armies and AV14 heavy armies. They suffer to anyone who can bring ignore cover AP3 (chaos, tau, some guard) but you should be hiding in combat from turn 2 onwards anyway with a lot of your army. You can also hide behind terrain almost anywhere on the board with turbo boost and scout move so you can limit the amount of fire power coming your way. Bikes agility and the abillity to premeasure ranges mean you should be able to influence what heavy weapons can shoot you. If the enemy cannot see you they cannot shoot you (with the exception of barrage weapons of course)

This comparison is of little value honestly, BKs are a fast moving, hard hitting, but ultimately fragile unit. DWKs are the stoutest Termies around and your opponent must deal with them or they will rampage through his lines. Premeasuring helps, but one bad charge roll and suddenly your bikes are stuck in front of the enemy guns. Yes the BKs can stay back and shoot, but if the DWKs are contesting an objective or sitting in your ADL you lose the option to just run away.

andystache wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
How are blobs a hard counter? Seems like a nice place to hide in combat during your opponents turn before bailing out with hit and run.
Also with the amount of fast melta in most RW lists armor 14 seems less like a hard counter and more like inefficient points spent to me.

Well your average IG blob is going to survive the Talons and the attacks, then they're going to hit back and they're going to hit back for two turns. Marine armor is generally great, but a mob of 20-30 boys will make short work if you haven't whittled them down substantially.

the boys will certainly do more in overwatch, but as for in combat I am not so sure. The boyz will have twice as many attacks, and will get hit on 4+ instead of 3+ and wounded on 4+ instead of 3+ but then they dont have as good an armor save. The boys still need 6s to wound followed by marine armor. Assuming 25 shoota boyz somehow dont get to overwatch. No nob or champion. 7.5 will die to the hammer of wrath and attacks of 6 Black Knights. 35 attacks back(assuming they can all get in base) 17.5 hit, 3 wound. 1 dead black knight. Next round another 3 boyz die, and the boyz kill another black knight, the knights hit and run having lost 1/3 their number. The boyz lost 40% their number. That is assuming that all the remaining boyz can get into base on the first round. More than likely they wont and you will only lose 1 black knight.

30 boyz with a nob are gonna do better. 20 boyz arent gonna do that well. Overwatch is what really kills it the other way(will kill another black knight), although I guess the Black knights also could soften up the boyz.

DA Raiders cannot get the 4++ easily any more. Have to be followed by a Techmarine on a bike with the PFG rather than the techmarine/HQ being in the LRC. It's still there but easier to dismantle.

 Blaggard wrote:
DA Raiders cannot get the 4++ easily any more. Have to be followed by a Techmarine on a bike with the PFG rather than the techmarine/HQ being in the LRC. It's still there but easier to dismantle.

Wrong thread, mate. This here is RW survival territory.

andystache wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
How are blobs a hard counter? Seems like a nice place to hide in combat during your opponents turn before bailing out with hit and run.
Also with the amount of fast melta in most RW lists armor 14 seems less like a hard counter and more like inefficient points spent to me.

Well your average IG blob is going to survive the Talons and the attacks, then they're going to hit back and they're going to hit back for two turns. Marine armor is generally great, but a mob of 20-30 boys will make short work if you haven't whittled them down substantially. Even with fast melta you have to get there, against IG that means running through lots of guns, against Marines you're charging a Land Raider and if it's a DA Raider you're probably looking at a 4++ on it. The BKs suffer from the same problems that all small units do they can be overwhelmed by large numbers of small things. If you kill 10 out of 50 IG in one turn you've killed 20% of his unit, to inflict similar casualties against you he only needs to kill 2 bikes in a full strength squad for a 20% rate and by the numbers that's 6 wounds inflicted.

I firmly believe they have a place in every DA army, just not as the backbone. The BKs are really Elites choices with bikes and that's where they excel eliminating other Elite units.

EDIT:

 jamin484 wrote:
A unit with storm shields is gonna deep strike in and look menacing. If RW have enough firepower nearby they kill them, if not they drive away and foot slogging terminators play no further part in the battle. RW are a hard counter for terminator heavy armies and AV14 heavy armies. They suffer to anyone who can bring ignore cover AP3 (chaos, tau, some guard) but you should be hiding in combat from turn 2 onwards anyway with a lot of your army. You can also hide behind terrain almost anywhere on the board with turbo boost and scout move so you can limit the amount of fire power coming your way. Bikes agility and the abillity to premeasure ranges mean you should be able to influence what heavy weapons can shoot you. If the enemy cannot see you they cannot shoot you (with the exception of barrage weapons of course)

This comparison is of little value honestly, BKs are a fast moving, hard hitting, but ultimately fragile unit. DWKs are the stoutest Termies around and your opponent must deal with them or they will rampage through his lines. Premeasuring helps, but one bad charge roll and suddenly your bikes are stuck in front of the enemy guns. Yes the BKs can stay back and shoot, but if the DWKs are contesting an objective or sitting in your ADL you lose the option to just run away.

Usually there is more than one objective, and the terminators will still get picked apart over time. Bike armies shouldn't use fixed positions so there will not be an ADL. The powerfield generator got nerfed heavily, in the new FAQ as it no longer works on the transport you're in. Most set ups RW will have MM AB in range first turn. Having an army made up entirely of bikes gives me the whole game to pick apart expensive terminators with massed plasma and melta fire. I'm not running away from terminators I'm killing them more slowly form a distance while taking almost no casualties in return. Most things that are good at killing bikes (vehicles monstrous creatures elite infantry) are also vulnerable to bikes.

Bikes with hit and run love blobs. With MSU you can draw the overwatch out before the valuable knights charge. It nice to stay in combat with a unit that cannot really hurt you like orcs, guard, necron warriors, tactical marines, DE etc. then bounce out, shoot again (being relentless) and charge.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:
DA Raiders cannot get the 4++ easily any more. Have to be followed by a Techmarine on a bike with the PFG rather than the techmarine/HQ being in the LRC. It's still there but easier to dismantle.

Wrong thread, mate. This here is RW survival territory.

andystache mentioned it mate.
Regarding that, how about Deathwing knights with an attached techmarine on a bike without PFG. Another body with a but with a 2+ armour for 70 points.

 jamin484 wrote:

Usually there is more than one objective, and the terminators will still get picked apart over time. Bike armies shouldn't use fixed positions so there will not be an ADL. The powerfield generator got nerfed heavily, in the new FAQ as it no longer works on the transport you're in. Most set ups RW will have MM AB in range first turn. Having an army made up entirely of bikes gives me the whole game to pick apart expensive terminators with massed plasma and melta fire. I'm not running away from terminators I'm killing them more slowly form a distance while taking almost no casualties in return. Most things that are good at killing bikes (vehicles monstrous creatures elite infantry) are also vulnerable to bikes.

Bikes with hit and run love blobs. With MSU you can draw the overwatch out before the valuable knights charge. It nice to stay in combat with a unit that cannot really hurt you like orcs, guard, necron warriors, tactical marines, DE etc. then bounce out, shoot again (being relentless) and charge.

If you're having to draw off overwatch by sacrificing an RAS squad then obviously the Knights are crunchy. Running MSUs you're also in the territory of getting gutted by normal small arms fire. A pure RW list is very high risk/high reward in competitive play, one bad charge roll or set of armor saves and there's nothing to fall back on. Unless you have the Ravenwing Banner there is still a 1/3 chance that you're not going to get your H&R off. There are just a lot of factors working against the pure RW list. Again I love the BKs and can't see running DA without them, but to me they're like the "heavy weapon" in most FPS's, if you hit something with it that thing will go away, but if you miss then you're dead.

Blaggard - That was greatly appreciated I had not seen the new FAQ yet. Interesting stuff there. TH/SS/CML is a go, no TH/SS or LC on the DW Sgt, pure DWA army is no go, and now running an RW Command Squad may be better than running a BK squad. Upside - 2 pts/model less, five total with banner is viable attack unit. Downside - Capped at 5 so 1 GL and ummm they don't count as scoring in Scouring... any other downsides I'm missing here?

At my FLGS Ive have huge success using a mono RW list, to the point that people have started to refuse to play against it.
2000 Pts - Dark Angels Roster


Sammael on Sableclaw

Librarian with ML 2, bike and PFG

Command squad with apothacer, nade launcher and stnrd of Dev

6 man bike squad + attack bike with MM + Speedeer with typhoon and MM

6 man bike squad + attack bike with MM + Speedeer with typhoon and MM

6 man bike squad + attack bike with MM + Speedeer with typhoon and MM

6 man RW Black Knights with nade launcher

Darkshroud with AC

Nephilim with TL LC

The Nephilim is just there cause I love the model.

For tactics if I have 1st turn I scout up to the half way point then turn 1 i move up 12" and unload everything into anything that looks like a theat, most armies tend to crumple at this point due to the insane amount of shots it can put out.

If I have 2nd turn I use the scout move to redeploy for better cover and then I just do the same after taking 1 round of fire.

Each 6 man squad is capable of putting out 24 TL bolter shots out to 24" each turn and I have 6 diff sources of MM fire, 3 of which are also shooting 2 missiles a turn as well. Also if you arent playing Killpoints combat squading can drown your opponent in small cheap units that he has to target separetly.

RWBK's ain't scoring anyway and don't take up FOC. More shrouds or single unit MM speeders.

or you can take 6 knights and get 2 grenade launchers and rad/stasis things. or use rad if you miss the first shot.

RWCS cannot do that. Limited to 1 still.

Stasis anomaly is stackable meaning that multiple grenades is even more viable

No they don't. Both stasis and rad specify one or more grenades inflicts the -1, not -1 per grenade. Vast stasis replaces stasis specifically to prevent stacking

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
or you can take 6 grenade launchers and rad/stasis things. or use rad if you miss the first shot.

all shooting is simo for a unit right. So you cannot do that

I worded it wrong, pardon my stupidity

checked codex. for every three knights you get a nade launcher.


And never heard that, but I don't really want to get into a rule pissing contest with you.

No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

andystache wrote:
No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

actually you can because because the -1 toughness happens when the unit takes a hit before you roll to wound. It specifically says in the codex a model hit by a rad grenade, not wounded, just hit takes the -1 toughness.

Mythantor wrote:

andystache wrote:
No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

actually you can because because the -1 toughness happens when the unit takes a hit before you roll to wound. It specifically says in the codex a model hit by a rad grenade, not wounded, just hit takes the -1 toughness.

Well after a check of the codex, BRB and associated FAQs I can happily say that I was wrong about that! Have an exalt and my thanks

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

What you misunderstand, Ailaros, is that Ravenwing outshoots any small arms force (except another RW) by a factor of 4. Scout move means there isn't anywhere on the board you can hide from 80+ twin-linked bolter shots on the
first turn, which will wreck most blob/foot armies. Mobility means you bring to bear the entirety of your army on a single part of your opponents, ensuring maximum efficiency. RWBKs are much better than Terminators in cc because they move 12", ignore terrain, and can Sweeping Advance at I4 and Hit and Run, and strike at initiative with 4 attacks on the charge. Hit and Run allows you to slingshot/reposition, and shoot/charge a second time. Termies stay locked in combat and can't chase units which run away, leaving them exposed to firepower. It's understandable since you've never played a RW army before, or played against poor RW players, but in the hands of a capable general they are extremely deadly.

There really isn't much reason to use the Standard of Fortitude in a RW army- now RCS can be 5-man an apothecary is far better. 5-man RCS with Sammael, Librarian rolling Invisibility, and an attached Techmarine with Apothecary should prove quite a tough nut to crack.

 Blaggard wrote:
RWBK's ain't scoring anyway and don't take up FOC. More shrouds or single unit MM speeders.

One Darkshroud is enough for any army, in general I find it pretty useless because most of the time another bike squad is better. Single MM speeders are expensive and terrible, single MM attack bikes synergise with your Banner and can score.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

andystache wrote:No pissing contest, he's right. All shooting for the unit is resolved at the same time. You can Rad a unit and then have another unit ID them with plasma (assuming T4), but not Rad them and ID them with the same squad. If you're going to be charging the Stasis is better against I4/5 enemies, if you're already striking first then Rad.

Ment that the bikes shots arn't instant death when they shoot. I ment that if one rad grenade missed, another grenade launcher can shoot one more rad grenade to actually hit the unit. pardon me for confusing you.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

What you misunderstand, Ailaros, is that Ravenwing outshoots any small arms force (except another RW) by a factor of 4. Scout move means there isn't anywhere on the board you can hide from 80+ twin-linked bolter shots on the
first turn, which will wreck most blob/foot armies. Mobility means you bring to bear the entirety of your army on a single part of your opponents, ensuring maximum efficiency. RWBKs are much better than Terminators in cc because they move 12", ignore terrain, and can Sweeping Advance at I4 and Hit and Run, and strike at initiative with 4 attacks on the charge. Hit and Run allows you to slingshot/reposition, and shoot/charge a second time. Termies stay locked in combat and can't chase units which run away, leaving them exposed to firepower. It's understandable since you've never played a RW army before, or played against poor RW players, but in the hands of a capable general they are extremely deadly.

There really isn't much reason to use the Standard of Fortitude in a RW army- now RCS can be 5-man an apothecary is far better. 5-man RCS with Sammael, Librarian rolling Invisibility, and an attached Techmarine with Apothecary should prove quite a tough nut to crack.

 Blaggard wrote:
RWBK's ain't scoring anyway and don't take up FOC. More shrouds or single unit MM speeders.

One Darkshroud is enough for any army, in general I find it pretty useless because most of the time another bike squad is better. Single MM speeders are expensive and terrible, single MM attack bikes synergise with your Banner and can score.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

Thanks for this in depth post! I'm only thinking about the banner of fortitude against tau or chaos to make them a little more survivable.

The only place for Fort banner is in a Black Knight Spam list with 20+ Black Knights and Darkshroud.

Today I made one:

Sammael
Techmarine, Bike
Librarian, Lvl 2,Bike
5-Man RCS, Standard of Fortitude
5-Man RCS, Ravenwing Banner
5-Man RCS

RAS. Melta,
RAS, Melta
AB, MM x2

5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
Darkshroud
1850pts

25 Bikers + 3 ICs in your face in turn two, all with FNP and 3+/2+ Cover saves.

You posted this in one of my threads before.... It still doesn't really work, I think. for one, Tech marines can not take a command squad... nat least I think they can't

andystache wrote:
No they don't. Both stasis and rad specify one or more grenades inflicts the -1, not -1 per grenade. Vast stasis replaces stasis specifically to prevent stacking

My bad, getting carried away with new FAQ's and not reading it properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The only place for Fort banner is in a Black Knight Spam list with 20+ Black Knights and Darkshroud.

Today I made one:

Sammael
Techmarine, Bike
Librarian, Lvl 2,Bike
5-Man RCS, Standard of Fortitude
5-Man RCS, Ravenwing Banner
5-Man RCS

RAS. Melta,
RAS, Melta
AB, MM x2

5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
5-Man RWBK, Meltabombs
Darkshroud
1850pts

25 Bikers + 3 ICs in your face in turn two, all with FNP and 3+/2+ Cover saves.

That's a good list. With RWCS's being so much better than Plain old BK's these days will people be buying apothecaries for each squad? Becasue if you can take 3 RWCS then that is 5 points more than the banner of fortitude and doesn't give a bubble. Surely the banner is worth it in that instance even without filling your FA slots with more BK's?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
You posted this in one of my threads before.... It still doesn't really work, I think. for one, Tech marines can not take a command squad... nat least I think they can't

They can.

And servitors unlock additional Techmarines. However they use up a HQ FOC slot, but not a HQ Forge slot.

they can? huh... I need to read my codex better X-X

There are some questions about the legality of the Techmarine/RWCS combo. The PA command squad specifically disallows Techmarine unlocking, but the RWCS only disallows other RWCS unlocking. The crux of the argument is what "HQ Choice" means. If HQ choice means a selection from the HQ section then the Techmarine on bike can roll with an RWCS, but you also get the infinite Techmarine/Servitor problem. If HQ choice means something that occupies an HQ Force Org slot then the Techmarine doesn't unlock the RWCS, the rub here is that if the Techmarine isn't an HQ Choice why is he disallowed in the PA Command squad.

Infinite Techmarine/Servitor isn't a problem because the Servitor uses a HQ Force slot. It doesn't use a HQ Forge slot. There's a 'g' instead of 'c' in the paper copies.

I know you're being funny, but sadly that makes a good case for no RWCS for the Techmarine on bike. The PA Command squad doesn't disallow Servitors, so technically RAW a Techmarine on a bike with a unit of Servitors would unlock an RWCS and a PACS, which I just can't see being what they were going for. On the other hand you've got Space Puppies taking 4 HQ's in one Forge Org (it sounds much better that way actually) and they pee on trees and have "special dates" in sweat lodges. Apologizes for the tangent, but c'mon Space Puppies are just silly

The Ravenwing Command Squad entry specifically says that any HQ choice on a bike automatically unlocks a RWCS.

Techmarine on Bike = HQ slot on bike = Ravenwing Command Squad.

90 points for three apothecaries which don't benefit the rest of the army, versus one standard which benefits everyone?

Hmm. Standard wins, I think. The Ravenwing Standard is also amazing, auto-pass hit and run is insane, as is 4d6 slingshot.

As far as I can tell you really want the Banner of Devastation, because it has more potential for abuse. You can turbo boost to spread its benefit around the whole army, which you can't do with the other banners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind the previous statement if you're going with a Black Knight heavy list.

well, changed my mind for now with black knight heavy X-X i need to work on the RAS side of things. thinking that the banner of devastation is a bit much below 1500, so i'll gradually work up with what i have.

and is the command squad really that better? i mean, if you dont have banners.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

I believe the tourney your reffering too took place in the northwest, and occured very early after the codex was released. I love playing dark angels but the more tournament results i see the more i think that this result was kind of an abberation. The hell drake faq has really put a hurtin' on ravenwing lists and i am not certain with the timing of this tourney win if the current helldrake ruling was in place.
The only placings i have seen for dark angels at major touneys so far (bao top 15) have been allies lists with vendettas and guard. Adepticon results have no dark angels in the top 15 although there are no metrics on the number of DA participants/lists. I think they are mid-tier amry at best that can be brought up by guard and vendettas which makes me sad. Very few pure armies place at the top of most tourneys but necron flyers figure prominently in any tourney that doesnt allow forge world. Granted im not privy to the results of every tournament across the country, so if i am wrong please diasabuse me of my error. Until dark angel flyers are fixed in some meaning full way, they are going to find themselves left behind in the power struggle for interplanetary dominance... And some tourneys too.

I will agree that bk are not too squishy but they have to be used in the right way not engaging too early and trying to hide in combat. The clicher for me is that they can run opponents down. This in my opinion makes them better than terminators.

@tiger - what do you mean that the banner of devastation is a bit much below 1500?

Polythemus wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Terminators are not better than RWBKs in any significant way, and a Ravenwing army is far superior to Deathwing. Ravenwing won at TSFHT, proving they are as competitive as anything in the field today.

There hasn't been a single top 10 placing DW list in any tournament this year.

To answer the OP's question, Black Knights aren't any tougher than normal bikers but far more deadly in terms of shooting and assault. Having them lead the charge isn't always the best idea (opponents tend to shoot the things in front first) and since their most effective range is 9" or less I usually turbo-boost them in the first turn to get that 2+ cover save. The important thing is positioning; since they ignore terrain you can always abuse this by moving out of LOS and then charging over in your turn, etc. Even so, any firepower they attract is sort of good because they're not shooting your scoring bikes.

I believe the tourney your reffering too took place in the northwest, and occured very early after the codex was released. I love playing dark angels but the more tournament results i see the more i think that this result was kind of an abberation. The hell drake faq has really put a hurtin' on ravenwing lists and i am not certain with the timing of this tourney win if the current helldrake ruling was in place.
The only placings i have seen for dark angels at major touneys so far (bao top 15) have been allies lists with vendettas and guard. Adepticon results have no dark angels in the top 15 although there are no metrics on the number of DA participants/lists. I think they are mid-tier amry at best that can be brought up by guard and vendettas which makes me sad. Very few pure armies place at the top of most tourneys but necron flyers figure prominently in any tourney that doesnt allow forge world. Granted im not privy to the results of every tournament across the country, so if i am wrong please diasabuse me of my error. Until dark angel flyers are fixed in some meaning full way, they are going to find themselves left behind in the power struggle for interplanetary dominance... And some tourneys too.

I will agree that bk are not too squishy but they have to be used in the right way not engaging too early and trying to hide in combat. The clicher for me is that they can run opponents down. This in my opinion makes them better than terminators.

@tiger - what do you mean that the banner of devastation is a bit much below 1500?

An aberration? You're implying he fluke'd and won the tournament somehow by sheer new codex grit. No, Ravenwing is extremely strong against most lists- the fact remains that the 100 Bolter RW alpha-strike is something very few armies can stand up against. Necron flyers are only good because they guarantee safe mobility across the board. If their scythes were skimmers like before they'd be mid tier, at best.



Helldrakes aren't all that. There were a grand total of three in Adepticon final 16, and one in the final four. No Helldrake spammer made it to the top 16.

I think ravenwing is great, but I don't think the strenght to the list is blackknights, the only blackknights worth taking is the command squad for banners, after that just take more ravenwings and bolter stuff to death. Blackknights is too many point in one unit that isn't all the tough.

With the FAQ change that let the ravenwing command squad take two more memebers, I see no point in taking black knights now. The command squad can have FnP and a banner.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


An aberration? You're implying he fluke'd and won the tournament somehow by sheer new codex grit. No, Ravenwing is extremely strong against most lists- the fact remains that the 100 Bolter RW alpha-strike is something very few armies can stand up against. Necron flyers are only good because they guarantee safe mobility across the board. If their scythes were skimmers like before they'd be mid tier, at best.

Helldrakes aren't all that. There were a grand total of three in Adepticon final 16, and one in the final four. No Helldrake spammer made it to the top 16.

If that is true how do you account for the shortage of da placings at top tournaments?

Can ravenwing cs Champs challenge? and be challenged? Same for apoth's?

Yes, they both become characters.

Shame the champ has to take the blade of caliban. If he could keep his hammer or take something else he might have been worth the 5 points.

Yes, BoC are shockingly bad. I don't bother with characters really in the command squad, you want to be doing as much rending dmg as possible anyway, not wasting attacks in a challenge.

Thinking of getting him just so some IC can join and not sit out every battle due to challenges.

Also, precision shots.

 Blaggard wrote:
You *could* spend 205 points giving FNP to a lot of T5 things. You could also spend 185 giving those T5 things 4 times the damage output at 24".

Ravenwing should not be moving as a clumped group; they should spread out and be able to move despite their command squad's position.

Loosey goosey for smooshey

Whoever said anything about a clumped group? You've got a 6" unit effecting range on a rectangular base that can turbo-boost to increase it's effective range. You cannot really turbo-boost a FNP banner to increase it's effective range. Of course if you do turbo-boost then you lose the Black Knight things they have (the grenade launcher, plasma talons and being decent in melee).

With the ability to purchase 5 bikers on the RCS I'm rethinking this. I cannot think of a situation where unless things have gone tits up the dakka banner is worse than the FNP banner in a RW force but I could understand where it could be useful in a force wanting to get into melee.

 Blaggard wrote:
Whoever said anything about a clumped group? You've got a 6" unit effecting range on a rectangular base that can turbo-boost to increase it's effective range. You cannot really turbo-boost a FNP banner to increase it's effective range. Of course if you do turbo-boost then you lose the Black Knight things they have (the grenade launcher, plasma talons and being decent in melee).

With the ability to purchase 5 bikers on the RCS I'm rethinking this. I cannot think of a situation where unless things have gone tits up the dakka banner is worse than the FNP banner in a RW force but I could understand where it could be useful in a force wanting to get into melee.

Mind explaining this for us?

Image is a thousand words.

 Blaggard wrote:
Image is a thousand words.

*snip*]

Enjoy your exaltation. I had a laugh.

The rectangular base adds a decent amount of threat range. I just did the math, and assuming the base is a 2.75" by 1" rectangle, you get a total area of about 158 square inches that are in the bubble. In contrast, a standard model is on a 1" base, and therefore has a bubble of about 132 square inches.

However, the other points are good. You only need one model within the bubble to get the banner's benefit, so you can set up your squads so that you can get several with one model within the bubble, then turboboost over to another similarly arranged group. This obviously won't work for the FNP bubble. Basically, the Devastation banner has some unique synergy with a Ravenwing list. Also, the fact that all Ravenwing models are on bases with roughly double the area of a standard model means you can set up the sort of conga lines you want to do with this strategy more easily.

Mix in the fact that Salvo weapons are really effective on Relentless models, and the Devastation banner looks like a massive force multiplier for a Ravenwing army, and one that you can generally control. In constrast, while FNP is definitely useful, you can't abuse Turbo Boost to get more use out of it, plus it's something your opponent can work around, unless you bunch up your army, which gives other advantages.

So are people only running dark knights in ravenwing lists?
Gonna try running mine in a mixed death/green wing

Sigh, the FNP banner is for Black Knight heavy lists (22+ Black Knights) that are charging forward to slaughter everything with close-ranged plasma and hit and run assault.

In this list you're light on RAS so having the Dakka banner doesn't help, but is a massive boost to your 2+ cover models.

In normal Ravenwing lists you go heavy on the RAS so Dakka banner to boost them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Holy~Heretic wrote:
So are people only running dark knights in ravenwing lists?
Gonna try running mine in a mixed death/green wing

Batman has turned traitor, you're thinking of the Night Lords.

Mixedwing doesn't really work, in my opinion; too much compromise and inefficiency. Ravenwing are the most efficient space marines at the moment with the Standard.




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I never turbo boost my RWCS to give some other chump Salvo. If 5 bike squads worth of Salvo can't down something, you're doing it wrong. Yes, 5 bike squads is the number you can fit in the bubble easily. The only reason to ever TB is to get the save or into RF/Assault range next turn.

You're wasting a turn of shooting from a 185+ point unit to give salvo to some others elsewhere. What? You should never be taking that many RAS, anyway.

new question I need to ask!

How many knights are good in a unit?

I go for units of 5, the right balance and a nice round number (210) You don't need 2 GL in a unit.

5 or 6.

so if five is the ideal number....


then a six man squad is completely pointless after all?

If you are taking DWK squads (and not biker command squads) and you want GL redundancy, then take 6. Command squads are just better though. Unlock one with Sammy and unlock another with a Tech or something on a bike.

Tech on a bike was necessary when they were 3, but since you can get 10 now with two HQs you don't really need the Tech, I think. He costs you an entire RAS, and 3 5-man command squads is a bit much.

The tech was supposed to be the second HQ. Spend 70 pts on a 2+ on a bike or ~100 for a Librarian/chaplain? You're already twin linked and you don't have the body count for combat.

Invisibility is your friend. You don't roll on Divination. Why do you need to have body count for combat? a single Black Knight can roll 10 GEQ, or 5 MEQ.

Invisibility is good, but the 1/3 chance of getting it isn't. You're also having to spend ~130 points to even attempt to get it.

Let's say your 1 guy charges 5 meq.
Overwatch:
9*(1/6*2/6*2/6)=0.167 dead so far, so basically nothing.
Combat, you both hit at the same turn:
BK:
3/6*2/6=0.17 kills from HOW
1/6*4*3/6*4/6=0.22 kills from rends
5/6*4*3/6*4/6*2/6=0.37 kills from normal attacks.
Tac: 6*3/6*2/6*2/6=0.33 kills
GH w/ Counter attack: 15*3/6*2/6*2/6=0.83 kills

Next turn:
BK:1/6*3*3/6*4/6=0.17 rend kills
5/6*3*3/6*4/6*2/6=0.28 normal kills
Tac: 6*3/6*2/6*2/6=0.33 kills
GH: 10*3/6*2/6*2/6=0.56 kills
Congratulations, you've spent a turn maybe killing a MEQ and maybe getting killed in return. Hardly rolling them.

They are good in combat, don't get me wrong. But as soon as you start losing them it hurts you hard. You have to pick things you can easily bully with them to assault, but if you assault something that wants you in close combat. You need the body count so that you can absorb the losses and still deliver a adequately sized punch to keep you in combat during their shooting and have it so they don't have a chance to wear you down in combat.

130 points to get Invisibility is points well spent. Psychic Defence, Force Weapon, Hallucinate, Psychic Shriek... all better than a 2+, one wound, being forced to take Rapid Manouvre and one Power fist attack. Oh wait, I really need to bolster that piece of cover and repair my bikes.

You're on bikes. You get to choose who charges what. If not, you're doing it wrong.

Remember there not so much of a hammer as your terminators, more of a scalpel. Use more subtly and they are awesome.