Forge world is an often heated topic that gets love and hate from lots of different people. There are many opinions about using it, and many tournaments don't even allow it. Some common things I have heard about it:
"Meh, forgeworld is too expensive, but I don't care if you use it."
"Wait, your tanks have WHAT? That's not fair, forgeworld sucks!"
"If you have the models, then go for it."
"If you have the book and/or datasheet and the actual forgeworld model, go ahead and use it."
"Nope, it's not GW, so you can't use it."
"You can't proxy gw models as forgeworld models."
"Forgeworld is doodookakapoopoo, unbalanced, and you're a douche if you use it."
At this point it's no different than anything else where I am, it's freely allowed in tournaments, leagues and friendly games, in fact probably at least half the armies in our current 18 person league are running *something* from Forgeworld, and the FLGS sells certain FW items and books.
Well I had a bad experience with a guy that used some outdated forgeworld rules that I had no idea about. It was an IG armored company thing where all six leman russes and four basilisks had a "slick loaders" upgrade, which allowed them to fire twice if they didn't move. It was a cheap upgrade too. And he conveniently forgot his book. Not owning the book myself, I was at his mercy with that outdated crap.
While I have had a bad experience or two, I have to say one of my good friend's dual vultures with punisher cannons look awesome. I don't really care about the rules tbh, just that they look cool lol
My local scene let me run my preheresy Imperial fists in a slow grow league recently and it was almost all forge world stuff. In tournaments its usually 0-1 IA units.
ghastli wrote: Well I had a bad experience with a guy that used some outdated forgeworld rules that I had no idea about. It was an IG armored company thing where all six leman russes and four basilisks had a "slick loaders" upgrade, which allowed them to fire twice if they didn't move. It was a cheap upgrade too. And he conveniently forgot his book. Not owning the book myself, I was at his mercy with that outdated crap.
While I have had a bad experience or two, I have to say one of my good friend's dual vultures with punisher cannons look awesome. I don't really care about the rules tbh, just that they look cool lol
This is what usually causes issues with Forgeworld, when people don't have their rules and often don't apply them correctly.
Mine tends to leave it up to the individual players. It's generally not allowed in tourneys, but in friendly games no one really cares provided you have an actual copy of the real and current rules. We don't see a lot of it though. Outside of the store's display cases I've maybe seen FW 4 or 5 times in as many years.
My FLGS is filled with older people, as in aged 28+. It's a competitive environment, but also full of mature people, rather than testosterone-riddled teenagers and young twenty-somethings.
This means two things. Firstly, it means that FW isn't strictly banned, of course, because if people bring models that they want to play with, then whatever. If we've got a problem with whatever weird thing someone wants to do, then we're just not going to play against them if it's really so much of a deal.
The second thing is that we just don't play people that we don't want to have to put up with. This means that FW stuff is really rare (so rare, actually, that it's stuff is only brought by the couple of younger players). That's because people with laborious personalities tend to get isolated and ignored.
Of course, one could be an interesting, and pleasant person with a good attitude and also use FW stuff, or army hop, or whatever, but experience in our store and with people on the internet doesn't look very hopeful for seeing much FW on the table where I play.
As such, it's really rather happenstantial that we don't have FW around, rather than, say, because it's banned outright.
For tournaments the store owner wants to get a look at the rules first to make sure what it does, latest edition/rules, and to just keep things inline with the players.
Most players seem to be against Forgeworld down here. Took some convincing to let my friend and I bring some tetras into some games. People weren't against it, they just want to see the rules for it for the most part. I can understand that. I'm already bring three expensive books just for the basic rules, army rules, and ally rules and can't really see myself buying all the odd IA books for units I couldn't care less about. I would just like to know what I'm shooting at first.
Makumba wrote: No FW , people here dont like the fact that it makes good dex better and weaker dex dont get anything .
I can't think of a single army that doesn't get anything from Forgeworld.
Get anything? Sure, that's true.
Get anything worthwhile? Stonecrusher Fexes, Malanthropes, Meiotic Spores. That's all the "40k Approved" stuff Tyranids get... a close combat upgrade to one of the worst units in our codex, a cheap MCHQ that can be taken in squads (but has crappy stats so you never will with Flyrants around), and a floating mine. Yay?
Right, meanwhile, the Vendetta wasn't powerful enough, so they decided to make a version that gains vector dancer, strafing run, and a twin-linked punisher cannon. On a personal note, I'd agree with the fact that forgeworld sadly really isn't fair to all players. Especially if you happen to be playing one of the armies that FW really likes, like guard or SM, while eldar get nothing more than corsairs and a few apocalypse vehicles and grey knights get... well... pretty much nothing.
Eh, that's probably fair, especially since GW coopted the Trygon to a codex unit. Still, the majority of armies out there get some cool toys.
It's not just IG and SM's that get cool stuff though, Tau get lots of stuff like suits/tetras and new HQ's, Chaos in general has lots of cool stuff like daemon engines , Necrons are getting some cool toys, Eldar get a ton of stuff like new aspects and a corsair list, DE get a couple new skimmers and a couple of flyers, Orks have lots of sweet stuff like grot tanks and flakka trakss, etc.
Ailaros wrote: Right, meanwhile, the Vendetta wasn't powerful enough, so they decided to make a version that gains vector dancer and a twin-linked punisher cannon. On a personal note, I'd agree with the fact that forgeworld really isn't fair to all players. Especially if you happen to be playing one of the armies that FW really likes, like guard or SM, while eldar get nothing more than corsairs and a few apocalypse vehicles and grey knights get... well... pretty much nothing.
The Punisher cannon is really only decent as a result of HP's, it's still rather mediocre at killing infantry, an average attack run against an SM unit might kill 3? I'd hardly say it's on par with the Vendetta (though should have AV11), and it costs more. It's also an HS unit I believe, though Ic ould be wrong on that.
You forgot strafing run. Combined with the heavy bolter, it's entirely possible for a vulture to wipe out a 5-man terminator squad in two turns due to volume of fire. And killing 10 GEq or putting down over 3 glancing hit on a rhino, or worse against anything with a side of AV10. On a unit that gets all the benefits of being a flier. And being cheaper.
Of all the armies that "desperately needed" more stuff from forgeworld, I guess it wasn't as necessary as the imperial guard getting a better flyer. Or at least another one.
Does it get Strafing run? I don't have the book on me at work here, if so, yeah that's kind of unnecessary (though I think in general it's an unnecessary rule). Isn't it more than 130pts with the TL Punisher cannon?
The Vulture at least has been around for years, since 3rd edition, and the Punisher Cannon loadout came out under 5th when it was just a Skimmer. The only thing "new" about it is its flyer rules.
Forge worlds allowed at our place but you have to have the rules, I tend to make a point of asking if my opponent has faced the unit before and if not I hand over the book and explain what it is, it only seems fair.
And I think some times people miss the point it's not about adding supper powerful units it's about giving your army something a bit different. People that field a beardy army will always find away forge world or not. I take a full compliment of vultures in my army ( and technically the vendetta is the new flyer vultures were around first) but as I'm playing an air theme I ban my self from taking tanks.
dpal666 wrote: In the broader local, FW units are allowed but the tournies don't allow FW lists.
Not too bad of a restriction.
Actually, I think that FW units are worse when taken as choices in a codex list, rather than in a FW list. Compare C:IG to an ABG list. IG can take three squadrons of vultures, ABG is limited to one, and can't have both vultures and vendettas at the same time. All ABG units must have transports (except the techpriest I think). Lots of choice are limited, such as no manticores, no psykers, stormtroopers lose special operations and must take transport, little access to infiltrate/outflank/deepstrike. Worst of all, the scoring units are pathetic. Mounted infantry squads without the platoon structure and veterans that are more expensive and only get two special weapons, both of which compete with russes. ABG can be an evil list but it has huge flaws, which will often cost you the game. Bubble wrap is pretty hard and scoring is harder. Also, vehicle warlords are very hard to hide.
To be honest though, there are ways to make super hard lists. Ally ABG to IG and you can create some monster lists. Four vendetta squadrons is not the nicest thing to bring.
The FW seem far more balanced to me, although general opinion is the opposite. I blame slick loaders. That upgrade was abused to hell, and for a long time the armoured company list was the only FW list. This created the image of broken lists, which is hard to shake. Most of the lists now are pretty fun and not too powerful, or at least have large weaknesses to exploit. DKOK are very static and have expensive infantry (although who knows what IA12 will bring). Elysians have to hit the enemy just right, or get cut down in separate parts. The space marine siege list has the opponent place a bonus objective in their deployment zone, which must be captured or you can only draw. The Tyrant's list has poor quality troops with fun special rules, and has limited armour options. FW seem to have gone out of their way to balance every list. Sure, they can saturate quite well and could surprise a badly composed list without enough AT/AA or whatever, but against balanced lists it can be hard to win.
Feelings are mixed in my local area some people use a fair bit and vice versa happy for me to use the little I have where as some call any forge world "broken" and refuse to play if I even so much as bring a nightwing with my eldar let alone my warp hunters!
At that point I take my stuff and go play some one else then they stand there getting arsey and wonder why people won't play them.
Ailaros wrote: Right, meanwhile, the Vendetta wasn't powerful enough, so they decided to make a version that gains vector dancer, strafing run, and a twin-linked punisher cannon.
Don't blame FW for that, blame GW for making the Vendetta so stupidly overpowered that the Vulture had to be that good just to have a chance of competing with it. Since the 5th edition IG codex the Vulture received a new boost every time it was reprinted, and it just finally got to the point where people are seriously considering taking one instead of a Vendetta for anything but fluff reasons.
while eldar get nothing more than corsairs and a few apocalypse vehicles
Lol? Eldar get amazing units, better than pretty much anything in the codex (though that's not saying much given how obsolete the codex is). Warp Hunters are the default heavy support choice, Hornets are what Vypers wish they could be, the FW War Walker can be taken as troops to free up heavy support slots, and the flyers are both really good (and the only AA Eldar have access to). TBH Eldar get more out of FW than any other army.
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Trickstick wrote: I blame slick loaders. That upgrade was abused to hell, and for a long time the armoured company list was the only FW list.
Of course that was a 3rd edition relic from the days of 300 point LRBTs, so the lesson here should have been "don't allow lists from multiple editions ago", not "FW lists are broken".
Very mixed around here. Not allowed in tournaments locally but for casual play it ranges from no problem to no way. The best way for Forge World to become more widely accepted would be for the rules and models to become more widely available.
The Chaos dwarf list in Throne of Tamurakan did not help matters because it has some terribly broken rules and so Forgeworld 40k kind of suffers guilt by association.
I know some people are of the opinion that Forgeworld rules are part of the "regular" 40k gaming experience. However, that is just not the reality of the situation. Every game you play with someone is by mutual consent and while I have never known people to refuse to play against the latest codex, many people wont play against FW rules. I personally would not play against the Chaos Dwarf list, its too broken and because it is not part of the main rules I wouldnt feel bad about declining the game. For 40k, I would want to look at the rules first but in all likelihood I probably wouldnt object. On the other hand I would never demand to look at a GW codex before deciding whether or not to play against it.
Chaos Dwarves are far from broken, they do have rather sucky internal balance. As in their infantry is rather lame and overpriced but they have good warmachines.
They also have some matchups where they are a hard counter. IE: Ogres hate magma cannons.
Grey Templar wrote: Chaos Dwarves are far from broken, they do have rather sucky internal balance. As in their infantry is rather lame and overpriced but they have good warmachines.
They also have some matchups where they are a hard counter. IE: Ogres hate magma cannons.
The big Kdai demon can practically destroy some armies single handed.
And it can be kited away due to frenzy by any competent general. 2 kiting units can keep the K'dai out of the battle for all the meaningful combat phases.
After turn 5 rolls around its not going to do much.
And any character with a cheap 2+ fire ward can also tie it up for the entire game.
Grey Templar wrote: And it can be kited away due to frenzy by any competent general. 2 kiting units can keep the K'dai out of the battle for all the meaningful combat phases.
After turn 5 rolls around its not going to do much.
And any character with a cheap 2+ fire ward can also tie it up for the entire game.
Frenzy is not the kiting bait it used to be because you test for ld and get rerolls from a bsb. Anyway we should probably take this debate to the fantasy section.
Here we have no problems with the "40K approved units".
I play Eldar so I do use lots of FW to compensate for my aging codex. Does not mean I win everytime. My stuff is still very expensive. Army is still T3.
Lots of complaints against FW comes from the fact that the rules are misunderstood or mixed from old iteration to new ones.
Can someone make totally broken list with FW?
Yes
Can someone make totally broken list with a top tier codex and allies?
Yes
It's not FW, it the guy wielding the army who can either be a gentlemen or a dick.
As for being expensive...it depends how closely you look and which models.
Fire Prism/Nightspinner =$59.50 on GW Canada
Warp Hunter = $59.58 once converted into Canadian dollar PLUS it comes with the Fire Prism sprue (minus crystals) but for 8 cents more and 1 crystal on a bits store, you get a Fire Prism/NightSpinner/Warp Hunter
To be completely honest I'm not reall sure what foregworld intels. I know its stuff like titans and certain types of tanks and stuff, but I don't know how you tell what belongs were or what rules belong to what. Are their special versions of codex's that show you what each thing is and what its for? How do you tell what you can buy for what army?
I know the local tourny's don't allow them though.
wowsmash wrote: To be completely honest I'm not reall sure what foregworld intels. I know its stuff like titans and certain types of tanks and stuff, but I don't know how you tell what belongs were or what rules belong to what. Are their special versions of codex's that show you what each thing is and what its for? How do you tell what you can buy for what army?
I know the local tourny's don't allow them though.
The Imperial Armour books have the rules for FW units. Some units are Apocalypse units like Titans, others are intended as additional units for their basic codex (e.g. Leman Russ Annihilator is just another weapon swap for a Leman Russ squadron), and there are some entire self-contained lists just as if they were their own codex (e.g. Armoured Battlegroup)
Makumba wrote: No FW , people here dont like the fact that it makes good dex better and weaker dex dont get anything .
I can't think of a single army that doesn't get anything from Forgeworld.
tyranids , sob , chaos marine stuff .they have nothing good. all armies arent legal for tournament play here so no one buys them and if you try to use them as ally people just will veto or won't play you in normal games. I wish I could get my hand on sentry guns or take armored company as ally . It would fix my problems with helldrakes and scyths.
I know one of the shop owners here has an eldar pirates army , but it is just for display .
In ireland :
Everyone is really happy to play them in casual games and everyone loves to see the gorgeous miniatures on the battlefield
Strangely enough, 90% of the tournaments ban them completely, one authorize them completely and another authorize 1 FW choice
To be honest, most of my regular 40K opponents in the FLGS are not very tournament oriented and we tend to play in a laid-back manner with lots of people spending time on gorgeous armies instead of "I need this new broken army because I love winning at tournies"
A shame it's not embraced by more people
Of course some will abuse them, but as previously said, those people are already abusing the Codexes
The "normal" players (not overly competitive nor fluffy bunnies) will take what they love first and foremost (I run a TL-AC + 6 HK missiles on my second vulture for instance, not very efficient, but good looking)
Our tournaments don't usually allow them because a lot of the people are hobo's and have a "pay to win" mentality toward FW. Personally though, I don't find it a requirement to ask my opponent if I'm allowed to bring FW units, and visa versa. If you don't wish to play against someone, you don't wish to play against them. You still reserve that right.
I get to play with Forge World in both my gaming groups. In one group I constantly lose and in the other I have a pretty good track record.
Ailaros wrote: while eldar get nothing more than corsairs and a few apocalypse vehicles
I know it was touched on, but... the Corsair list is roughly divided into two sections. "What you get in Craftworld List" and "What you don't get in Craftworld List". An estimate 80% of the units can be found in both sections, with a few exceptions.
The good:
"Guardians" that are useful and that can get Jet Pack.
War Walkers as Troop (limited by "Guardian" squads)
Nightwing that is the most cost effective way of getting Bright Lances on the table. Inexplicably got buffed in Imperial Aeronautica.
The Bad:
The entire Elite section. Simply put, it relies on an out-dated codex and a somewhat decent Dark Eldar unit.
The Prince's bodyguard. Bad bad bad at a huge price.
"Guardians" can't be taken in a Craftworld list.
Shadow Spectres were poor and got turned bad. Sad, 'cause the models are lovely.
The Ugly:
The entire HQ section. The Void Dreamer is what a Warlock should be and should've been a proper psycher (he's still good, but not as a psycher, but rather for his flamer) and the Prince is based on the Autarch (which to begin with is overpriced) and then gets to pay 40-50 points for the one-shot wonder.
The Warp Hunter. A tad too good. Just a tad. Not like a certain codex flyer for a certain human army, but still, a tad too good.
So, essentially, FW dropped the ball on the HQ and the Elite section, needlessly nerfed the Spectres when they should've been buffed. Everything else is really good. Nearly everything good can be taken in a Craftworld codex and if it wasn't for the "Guardians" not being Craftworld-approved there wouldn't be any point at all in using a full on Corsair list.
Foot note: the Wasp Assault Walker is more expensive and has higher BS in an actual Corsair list. If purchased in a Craftworld list, they are as expensive as normal War Walkers and are purchased as Fast Attack as well as being piloted by regular BS3 Craftworlders. It's the only unit to suffer this treatment.
So, essentially, FW dropped the ball on the HQ and the Elite section, needlessly nerfed the Spectres when they should've been buffed. Everything else is really good. Nearly everything good can be taken in a Craftworld codex and if it wasn't for the "Guardians" not being Craftworld-approved there wouldn't be any point at all in using a full on Corsair list.
The problem is, FW has to deal with the current list and can't deliberately make things "Better". It's why the vendetta has barely met a challenge from FW things for the longest time because some of the stuff they have to create for is to off.
Mahtamori wrote: the Prince is based on the Autarch (which to begin with is overpriced) and then gets to pay 40-50 points for the one-shot wonder.
If you do CWE with Corsair allies, he's a character to go at the front of the death stars for that re-rollable 2++. He can then either make it night fighting for a turn, or drop a str 9 ap2 lance orbital barrage.
If you do corsiar allies with eldar, he's the goto hqimo (out of 2 ). Although I wouldn't expect anything else out of him.
I get to use FW in my games. I like the Wraithseer from that IA.
We allow FW in our FLGS, but this is mostly due to the absense of people attempting to overpower their lists.
For tournament play, the idea is a 0-1 FW datasheet for 40k/Chapter approved. That keeps the 3 Ironclad Dreads in Lucius and Interceptor weapons all over the place at bay.
Somebody else mentioned that you could take FW but cannot take two of the same item. That seems like a good idea too. It just means one of my two Nightwings wouldn't get seen...which makes me sad.
Ailaros wrote: My FLGS is filled with older people, as in aged 28+. It's a competitive environment, but also full of mature people, rather than testosterone-riddled teenagers and young twenty-somethings.
This means two things. Firstly, it means that FW isn't strictly banned, of course, because if people bring models that they want to play with, then whatever. If we've got a problem with whatever weird thing someone wants to do, then we're just not going to play against them if it's really so much of a deal.
The second thing is that we just don't play people that we don't want to have to put up with. This means that FW stuff is really rare (so rare, actually, that it's stuff is only brought by the couple of younger players). That's because people with laborious personalities tend to get isolated and ignored.
Of course, one could be an interesting, and pleasant person with a good attitude and also use FW stuff, or army hop, or whatever, but experience in our store and with people on the internet doesn't look very hopeful for seeing much FW on the table where I play.
As such, it's really rather happenstantial that we don't have FW around, rather than, say, because it's banned outright.
I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?
Ailaros wrote: My FLGS is filled with older people, as in aged 28+. It's a competitive environment, but also full of mature people, rather than testosterone-riddled teenagers and young twenty-somethings.
This means two things. Firstly, it means that FW isn't strictly banned, of course, because if people bring models that they want to play with, then whatever. If we've got a problem with whatever weird thing someone wants to do, then we're just not going to play against them if it's really so much of a deal.
The second thing is that we just don't play people that we don't want to have to put up with. This means that FW stuff is really rare (so rare, actually, that it's stuff is only brought by the couple of younger players). That's because people with laborious personalities tend to get isolated and ignored.
Of course, one could be an interesting, and pleasant person with a good attitude and also use FW stuff, or army hop, or whatever, but experience in our store and with people on the internet doesn't look very hopeful for seeing much FW on the table where I play.
As such, it's really rather happenstantial that we don't have FW around, rather than, say, because it's banned outright.
I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?
I think it means they're grumpy, old, and set in their ways.
Seriously though. It sounds like Ailaros has more of a problem with hyper-competitive asses, and less of a problem with Forge World. I would suggest that Forge World stuff is considerably difficult for anyone without a proper credit card (not debit card) to get a hold of, such as teenagers and younger twentysomethings.
I mean, I only got one myself three years ago, explicitly for Forge World stuff, and I'm 29.
To answer the actual original question: We have no problem with Forge World stuff nowadays. In 5th edition, most of us had a problem with it. Since 6th dropped, the game has gotten so crazy that we've found that allowing FW actually helps balance the game, especially for armies with no real AA. If it gets to be a problem, we'll consider a restriction on it, but until then, we're all good here.
I'm not sure what my group would think about it, since no-one really uses it. We had one guy who used to come in and he used a contemptor (mainly) among other things. He was a bit WAAC though.
No-one's really used any since. Personally, I have no problems with them.
Lol? Eldar get amazing units, better than pretty much anything in the codex (though that's not saying much given how obsolete the codex is). Warp Hunters are the default heavy support choice, Hornets are what Vypers wish they could be, the FW War Walker can be taken as troops to free up heavy support slots, and the flyers are both really good (and the only AA Eldar have access to). TBH Eldar get more out of FW than any other army.
The Eldar also have the Firestorm for AA ability, and it is actually a solid AA unit.
But in general you are correct. The Craftworld Eldar, since the advent of IA 11, have gottten amazing units for use from FW sources. Wraithseer, Shadow Spectres, Warp Hunter, Wasp Assault Walkers, Hornets, Nightwings, Phoenix Bombers, and the Firestorm...think I got most of them at least.
None of these are game breaking, but they certainly are more reasonable and useful items for their respective slots. Eldar, with IA, become fun to play and feel more fluffy....but still aren't Top 3 armies.
Yodhrin wrote:I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?
I said what I said.
You don't have to be an ass to play forgeworld stuff. You really don't. Especially not, as has been mentioned, if you play a set-piece army, rather than allying FW stuff into a regular list.
Likewise, you could be a pleasant, interesting and engaging person, and there is absolutely nothing stopping you from painting a racing stripe on your car, putting blue neon running lights underneath it, and blasting rap music or hip-hop with a 2,000W stereo. There's nothing that says that you can't be a genial fellow and wear your cap sideways and wear your pants down at your knees with a cascading series of belts to hold it all together. You are not required to adopt a terrible attitude to end every sentence with "like" or "brah", or get a rhinestone earring for that matter.
But now, let's say for a moment that there was a group of people out there who had a requirement that you be worth spending time with to be a part of the group. Just how many rhinestone earrings and 2,000 watt speakers and neon running lights would you expect to see in that group? Those things aren't banned by the group, but that doesn't mean that you're likely to see a lot of them either.
On an interesting side note, the people I've found in person who most buy forgeworld units are those least able to afford them (especially, for example, younger people who don't have money of their own). If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that things aren't going that terribly well for them, and that they want to have winning games of 40k as validation for nothing else working out, and that forgeworld, though more expensive up front, has a better return.
On an interesting side note, the people I've found in person who most buy forgeworld units are those least able to afford them (especially, for example, younger people who don't have money of their own). If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that things aren't going that terribly well for them, and that they want to have winning games of 40k as validation for nothing else working out, and that forgeworld, though more expensive up front, has a better return.
Well, to a certain extent, being a younger person is a life of relative financial insecurity. Being able to afford things that are flashy and nice lets one put forth the illusion that they're doing better than they are. That could be appealing for many obvious reasons, to many people.
On the other hand, you have people who have zero other financial responsibilities, like myself. No longer a youngin', good job, no kids, paid off student loans, paid off car. I keep a roof over my head and keep next to no debt. Of course, I only have about 3 or 4 forgeworld things, all sub $200, but the point I'm (probably badly) trying to make is that your profile doesn't always entirely fit.
I just want to clarify this before I have a proper go at you, in case I'm misunderstanding: are you seriously trying to imply that people who buy Forgeworld are typically either young hyperactive and immature, or "laborious" TFGs?
well I see it this way . I takes a special kind of SW player to order 3 saber defense platforms , considering how much they cost [in real money]. the age doesnt matter much .
I've never had anyone complain about a single unit from FW, if a person wants to build a broken list they don't need to use FW units to do that. The standard codexes allow for some horrifically broken lists, if anything the more powerful FW units are pretty solid counters to the lists TFG's tend to bring along at the moment such as the sabre defence platforms neutering flyer spam lists, which makes one wonder if they're the ones opposing FW inclusion.
Generally the people I see taking FW units are the ones who are passionate about the fluff and the hobby in general, they bring along weaker units that give their army a bit more character even if it's just one of the chapter masters or characters etc from the badab books.
If you have the model, and the Book for the model, by all means slap it on the table.
I have fought 9 Sabre platforms. Full Heresy armies, and everything in between. Most of the Forgeworld stuff seems more balanced than most of the GW Codeci's that are on the shelves. As long as the people know ALL the rules for their Forgeworld stuff, your A O.K. Its the people that only pay attention to the rules that work for them is when FW stuff becomes OMGZORZ.
Myself and my friends actually collect most of the books, I myself play Tyranids and there is almost nothing in there for me, but a Minotaur Chapter does look like some fun!
Ailaros wrote: But now, let's say for a moment that there was a group of people out there who had a requirement that you be worth spending time with to be a part of the group. Just how many rhinestone earrings and 2,000 watt speakers and neon running lights would you expect to see in that group? Those things aren't banned by the group, but that doesn't mean that you're likely to see a lot of them either.
So what you're saying is that we should judge people by superficial appearance and stereotypes instead of looking at the truth? Why risk having to change your mind when you can just write off FW players as "TFG"?
On an interesting side note, the people I've found in person who most buy forgeworld units are those least able to afford them (especially, for example, younger people who don't have money of their own). If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that things aren't going that terribly well for them, and that they want to have winning games of 40k as validation for nothing else working out, and that forgeworld, though more expensive up front, has a better return.
Sorry, but that's just stupid, and pretty insulting as well.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: (Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)
If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.
daedalus wrote: Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.
Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.
At any rate, my group wholly embraces Forgeworld; one guy only has FW armies; Traitor Guard and Eldar Corsairs.
Most FW army lists are significantly weaker than their standard counterparts, and instead allow themed or specialized lists which either win or lose big, depending on the opponent and mission type. Their individual models aren't terribly problematic, there's one or two units which raise eyebrows, but since we've only got one TFG, and he can't afford to buy anything at this point, nothing gets abused.
I find the only people who oppose FW in my area are either too stuck in their ways to objectively analyze what FW brings to the table, or they're hardcore WAACs who can't tolerate facing anything they don't know inside and out.
yep, its a common problem, a few too many people have bees in their bonnets about this and egos seem to get involved...
where i play- its fine, providing you bring all the books you need to use the stuff, oh and if it does well expect to be trolled for lulz
common sense and politness go a long way, and anyway a lot of the stuff is sub par when compared to the normal codex stuff, you don't tend to hear whines about the armoured battle group do you?
though the anti FW brigade always make an appearance- tins hats and rifles at the ready
Art_of_war wrote: where i play- its fine, providing you bring all the books you need to use the stuff
We settled on that approach here too when one of the guys bought a FW Land Raider variant. As long as we know what your FW thing does before the game it's fine.
And that's the way you should use the standard codex units too IMO. If you bring a new gamechanging one please say so instead of springing it as a surprise midgame.
Art_of_war wrote: where i play- its fine, providing you bring all the books you need to use the stuff
We settled on that approach here too when one of the guys bought a FW Land Raider variant. As long as we know what your FW thing does before the game it's fine.
And that's the way you should use the standard codex units too IMO. If you bring a new gamechanging one please say so instead of springing it as a surprise midgame.
Actually our meta had that too, if you have X, you must bring book X. No exceptions, not even for standard codex.
To a normal game I need to bring my eldar codex, aeronautica, the doom of mymeara, my BRB, the BRBFAQ, The Forgeworld psyker FAQ and my Eldar FAQ.
It's getting daft now...
I think one of the people that had such issues, eventually brought all his books, showed em to the owner, and then pulled up all the PDF's on his laptop and had it done that way so people could read through without messing up his books.
Considering he had nearly Six Books worth of units at one point, it was a far greater godsend to read through then to find each individual unit in each book, then match it up to the FAQ's..
To a normal game I need to bring my eldar codex, aeronautica, the doom of mymeara, my BRB, the BRBFAQ, The Forgeworld psyker FAQ and my Eldar FAQ.
It's getting daft now...
I think one of the people that had such issues, eventually brought all his books, showed em to the owner, and then pulled up all the PDF's on his laptop and had it done that way so people could read through without messing up his books.
Considering he had nearly Six Books worth of units at one point, it was a far greater godsend to read through then to find each individual unit in each book, then match it up to the FAQ's..
I don't have a laptop. I have to make do with page marking post-its.
To a normal game I need to bring my eldar codex, aeronautica, the doom of mymeara, my BRB, the BRBFAQ, The Forgeworld psyker FAQ and my Eldar FAQ.
It's getting daft now...
I think one of the people that had such issues, eventually brought all his books, showed em to the owner, and then pulled up all the PDF's on his laptop and had it done that way so people could read through without messing up his books.
Considering he had nearly Six Books worth of units at one point, it was a far greater godsend to read through then to find each individual unit in each book, then match it up to the FAQ's..
I don't have a laptop. I have to make do with page marking post-its.
Ah that sucks, would your area allow you to bring the books, but print out the PDF pages for the units you have in your book so that would be easier to cross reference while in a game?
Thats a thought.
I'd still have to take the books, though it would save looking through IA and aeronautica - At the mo I do things like use the forgeworld psyker FAQ to place mark the wraithseer.
2 birds with one stone etc.
Forge world is an issue only insofar as the rules aren't as widely available as 'stock' 40k. The general consensus among my circle is that its polite to ask your opponents permission (no-one has said no, yet) and bring the relevant rules with you, either the book itself, photocopies or a printout. if you don't bring the rules, then obviously you can't use it.
I've never encountered anything in forgeworld that has been any more overpowered than anything in the GW published materials. A nasty surprise to your current favourite necron flyer spam when the enemy brings a load of hydra platforms, certainly, but not game breaking in general by any stretch of the imagination.
We use the same rule I think most human beings use:
If it looks cool (showing some obvious effort) and evidence of its use (faq, datasheet, forgeworld book, codex) is there for opponent's review: your good.
Forge World can be expensive and I really would hate to stop someone or myself from being able to use their models in a normal game rather than wait forever for the next Apoc game.
Anyone that had to deal with resin (does not glue well), sanding (health hazard), wash off mold release (worse than normal plastic), fill: short casts, bubbles and bend back warped parts I would expect to go into a rage like a Khorn Berzerker if they were told they could not use it.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Ah I forgot one more thing. We dont have gaming clubs here and if they are no in Warsaw , then there are no in other smaller cities too . So we play at shops and shops dont have FW stuff on sale and have an alergic reaction to anything that may lower their sells . And as the only stuff that could be used her from FW is the good stuff , the few people that have enough cash to buy the books and the models would be making new players quit . no one who is starting necron wants to hear that now his opponent has anywhere from 6 to 11 cannon shots at his flyer after it exists reservs .
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
forgeworld do not, iirc, appear in any codexes.
In FW books plenty of unit entries say "Unit X is a part of Codex Y"
Just because it's not on the pages of the original codex, doesn't merit exclusion. It's still a part of the codex. Just from a secondary source.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
forgeworld do not, iirc, appear in any codexes.
Which is getting into an altogether different argument of the ridiculousness of not allowing Official GW model X simply because it does not appear in Official GW book Y but rather Official GW book Z (which then states that Official GW model X can be taken with Official GW army list A contained within Book Y).
Then there's getting into all FW units that have appeared in codex books, Valkyries, Hydras, Skyrays, Pirhanas, etc, or the units that once were general codex units and are now Forgeworld units as opposed to codex units, like Thudd Guns, Rapier Laser destroyers, Leman Russ vanquishers and exterminators and Griffons for many years, etc.
Rules are usually there to tell you what you can do.
They want to sell models and want the games to go well so there are not too many angry people saying the system is no good.
They are leaning on the FLUFF, you want some strange vehicle of death and destruction there is an app for that, I mean there is a model for that. This is a rules version of the lion laying with the lambs: most builds and alliances are viable.
I like that FW is included more and made part of the rule set. Since it is a competing division within GW it may force the primary group to be more competitive. As has been observed, they seem a little more thoughtful in the rules they produce.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: (Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)
If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
daedalus wrote: Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.
Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.
Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: (Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)
If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
daedalus wrote: Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.
Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.
Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.
I'm still waiting for Forgeworld to give me better options to kill fliers.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: (Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)
If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
daedalus wrote: Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.
Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.
Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.
I'm still waiting for Forgeworld to give me better options to kill fliers.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: (Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)
If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
daedalus wrote: Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.
Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.
Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.
I'm still waiting for Forgeworld to give me better options to kill fliers.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'.
Those are only 1/3rd of missions, and, as odd as it sounds, AB's often don't have any Heavy Support for Big Guns as it's more specialist units that aren't always super needed. My AB doesn't have any.
They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
This is 100% subjective as to whether it is fun or not, and the only army I found in my experience that had much trouble with it in 6th was a footslogging Nurgle Daemon army which was very slow and had trouble crossing the board and had almost no shooting. Between the new CC rules for vehicles, HP's, and often complete lack of or very minimal inclusion of scoring units, the army really isn't that scary.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Of course not. All those units, for better or worse, are in the Codices and part of the game. I don't want Planetstrike or Flyer Aces in "serious" tournaments either. But, lucky for us all, there's a huge variety of event formats for players to enjoy. I'll bring my FW stuff to the NoVa narrative and Wargamescon, but those are events I'm just playing in for fun. For the NoVa Open, I'm going to compete and not have to put up with FW in a "serious" environment. Y'all can compete in BAO and WGC. Everybody wins.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Of course not. All those units, for better or worse, are in the Codices and part of the game.
See this is where that line of thinking breaks down, as most of these units are *intended* to be used in a manner no different than so-called "codex" units, not requiring special force orgs, deployment types, new missions, etc that something like Planetstrike does. They only difference between them and a "codex" unit is that they appear in Book X instead of Book Y, but other than that are intended to be used in the same armies in the same ways, there's nothing different about the game you're playing with them.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Of course not. All those units, for better or worse, are in the Codices and part of the game.
See this is where that line of thinking breaks down, as most of these units are *intended* to be used in a manner no different than so-called "codex" units, not requiring special force orgs, deployment types, new missions, etc that something like Planetstrike does. They only difference between them and a "codex" unit is that they appear in Book X instead of Book Y, but other than that are intended to be used in the same armies in the same ways, there's nothing different about the game you're playing with them.
Kinda like how White Dwarf can change units. It's not in Book X, but its still 100% official.
Vaktathi wrote: See this is where that line of thinking breaks down, as most of these units are *intended* to be used in a manner no different than so-called "codex" units, not requiring special force orgs, deployment types, new missions, etc that something like Planetstrike does. They only difference between them and a "codex" unit is that they appear in Book X instead of Book Y, but other than that are intended to be used in the same armies in the same ways, there's nothing different about the game you're playing with them.
You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
ghastli wrote: Well I had a bad experience with a guy that used some outdated forgeworld rules that I had no idea about. It was an IG armored company thing where all six leman russes and four basilisks had a "slick loaders" upgrade, which allowed them to fire twice if they didn't move. It was a cheap upgrade too. And he conveniently forgot his book. Not owning the book myself, I was at his mercy with that outdated crap.
While I have had a bad experience or two, I have to say one of my good friend's dual vultures with punisher cannons look awesome. I don't really care about the rules tbh, just that they look cool lol
Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
Chumbalaya wrote: You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
Nobody is disputing the fact that you have a right to play in tournaments with whatever house rules you want. Don't like FW? Run a no-FW event. Don't like WAAC lists? Play a comp-heavy event. Hate Orks? Play a no-Orks event. Etc. But don't pretend that it's about game balance or that FW is a "crutch" when it's just about your personal dislike of certain books.
quickfuze wrote: Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
The 5th edition "update" pdf removed the once per turn limit on veteran skills.
ghastli wrote: Well I had a bad experience with a guy that used some outdated forgeworld rules that I had no idea about. It was an IG armored company thing where all six leman russes and four basilisks had a "slick loaders" upgrade, which allowed them to fire twice if they didn't move. It was a cheap upgrade too. And he conveniently forgot his book. Not owning the book myself, I was at his mercy with that outdated crap.
While I have had a bad experience or two, I have to say one of my good friend's dual vultures with punisher cannons look awesome. I don't really care about the rules tbh, just that they look cool lol
Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
Nope, three turns of 20 templates each before he tabled me. Barring apocalypse, this and my buddy's vulture duo is the only experience I've had with FW unfortunately.
Chumbalaya wrote: You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
Nobody is disputing the fact that you have a right to play in tournaments with whatever house rules you want. Don't like FW? Run a no-FW event. Don't like WAAC lists? Play a comp-heavy event. Hate Orks? Play a no-Orks event. Etc. But don't pretend that it's about game balance or that FW is a "crutch" when it's just about your personal dislike of certain books.
quickfuze wrote: Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
The 5th edition "update" pdf removed the once per turn limit on veteran skills.
You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
LValx wrote: You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
Sorry, but the balance argument is just absurd in a game with as many balance problems as codex-only 40k has. If people were really serious about dealing with the balance problems they'd make a complete set of house rules (new point costs, changed rules, etc) to fix all the broken codex stuff, not just ban FW (which has very few balance problems).
Chumbalaya wrote: You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
Nobody is disputing the fact that you have a right to play in tournaments with whatever house rules you want. Don't like FW? Run a no-FW event. Don't like WAAC lists? Play a comp-heavy event. Hate Orks? Play a no-Orks event. Etc. But don't pretend that it's about game balance or that FW is a "crutch" when it's just about your personal dislike of certain books.
quickfuze wrote: Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
The 5th edition "update" pdf removed the once per turn limit on veteran skills.
You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
You're implying that codex only 40k is even remotely balanced?
they are just more expensive little toy soldiers and tanks in a game about expensive toy soldiers and tanks..we let everybody play with their toys in our sandbox.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: they are just more expensive little toy soldiers and tanks in a game about expensive toy soldiers and tanks..we let everybody play with their toys in our sandbox.
LValx wrote: You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
Sorry, but the balance argument is just absurd in a game with as many balance problems as codex-only 40k has. If people were really serious about dealing with the balance problems they'd make a complete set of house rules (new point costs, changed rules, etc) to fix all the broken codex stuff, not just ban FW (which has very few balance problems).
Logistically it is much easier to simply remove and fix the little things you believe can create issues. I agree that the best way to go about it is to simply write "competitive" rule-set but it is a bunch of work. Simply banning FW makes plenty of sense, IMO. But I won't deny that it is a "house-rule." The argument may seem absurd to you, but I doubt the TOs that don't believe in it have any other reason to ban it.
LValx wrote: Logistically it is much easier to simply remove and fix the little things you believe can create issues.
Sure, which is why balance efforts should first focus on the most overpowered units, not a blanket no-FW rule that applies equally to the most powerful FW units and the weakest FW units. If balance is your goal then it makes a lot more sense to, say, increase the point cost of Vendettas by 50 points than to ban a long list of FW units that few people would even use competitively.
Simply banning FW makes plenty of sense, IMO.
No it doesn't, because it doesn't accomplish the desired goal of improving game balance. If that's your real goal (rather than just an excuse to justify your no-FW preference) banning FW makes about as much sense as banning SoB. You've removed options from the game, but done nothing to address the actual problem.
Not in tournaments. The issue isn't so much in balance but in people being prepared for it. A lot of people know the gist of every dex but can't be expected to know, even basically, what the units in ALL of the FW books do.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: Not in tournaments. The issue isn't so much in balance but in people being prepared for it. A lot of people know the gist of every dex but can't be expected to know, even basically, what the units in ALL of the FW books do.
And I'm expected to know the gist of each codex I don't own?
Neorealist wrote: Yes? If you are serious about competing in and especially winning a tournament, that sort of information is invaluable.
And to that I say that's fully understandable.
But it also implies that you will need to do research as to each army, which can be done in a various number of ways. And if you're already researching an army's capabilities, it's not that difficult to research the FW capabilities.
Neorealist wrote: Yes? If you are serious about competing in and especially winning a tournament, that sort of information is invaluable.
And to that I say that's fully understandable.
But it also implies that you will need to do research as to each army, which can be done in a various number of ways. And if you're already researching an army's capabilities, it's not that difficult to research the FW capabilities.
Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
ansacs wrote: Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
I guess we'll just pretend that most people don't pirate all the books?
ansacs wrote: Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
I guess we'll just pretend that most people don't pirate all the books?
ansacs wrote: Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
I guess we'll just pretend that most people don't pirate all the books?
Probably true that most people do not pirate all the books. I never hear people complaining about the fact that FW is not allowed in the local tournaments. Once FW prices drop and the product becomes easier to obtain locally (fat chance) then there would be people clamoring for FW.
Ailaros wrote: You forgot strafing run. Combined with the heavy bolter, it's entirely possible for a vulture to wipe out a 5-man terminator squad in two turns due to volume of fire. And killing 10 GEq or putting down over 3 glancing hit on a rhino, or worse against anything with a side of AV10. On a unit that gets all the benefits of being a flier. And being cheaper.
Of all the armies that "desperately needed" more stuff from forgeworld, I guess it wasn't as necessary as the imperial guard getting a better flyer. Or at least another one.
Just to clarify, my Elysians can use the Vulture Gunship and though it has access to the Punisher Vulture it does not have strafing run in the IA8 list which I use. I am all for Forgeworld however I made sure to print out an actual book with the IA8FAQ and the Forgeworld Hull Point Sheet along with the Elysian rules so my opponents can look through it. I have even made two other copies to leave at my local game stores as "store books" so people can read my list and not be surprised by what I bring. In my case the Elysians are not at all hard to figure out, we literally are stat line for stat line the same as the guard book (more expensive though) and have sentinels as Elite choices, Vultures for heavy support and Valks for dedicated transports. Basically outside of the FoC, not to many unique units and two special rules (basically almost everything gets "deepstrike" and iron discipline is a rule that means we use our standard LD even below half strength) really is all that is different.
The biggest argument I hear against FW is that people should not have to learn another book (even though there are 16 books in the standard 40k codexs, no offense in my area there are very few that know in great detail every single book, hence why I feel its not to good an argument). However thats why I make sure to have rules on hand for people to read or internet access to pull up those rumors.
ghastli wrote: Well I had a bad experience with a guy that used some outdated forgeworld rules that I had no idea about. It was an IG armored company thing where all six leman russes and four basilisks had a "slick loaders" upgrade, which allowed them to fire twice if they didn't move. It was a cheap upgrade too. And he conveniently forgot his book. Not owning the book myself, I was at his mercy with that outdated crap.
While I have had a bad experience or two, I have to say one of my good friend's dual vultures with punisher cannons look awesome. I don't really care about the rules tbh, just that they look cool lol
This is what usually causes issues with Forgeworld, when people don't have their rules and often don't apply them correctly.
That's a potential problem with anyone that "didn't bring their book" but can "totally remember all of the rules and stats" with any army/units, not just forgeworld.
