Gauss weapons now can kill my Land Raider if I get to close? 20 shots is bound to get some 6s.
Any infantry unit can get back up on a 5+ or even a 4+ with an upgrade? Welcome to free unit-ville, population Necrons.
Fliers for days which are incredibly powerful now in 6th ed.

I haven't played against them yet but I've been doing some research since one of my friends told me he's going to be fielding a Necron army and I'm wondering. Is this for real? Are these guys really as imbalanced as I think they are? If so, how can I counter that?

JaamDaMan wrote:
Gauss weapons now can kill my Land Raider if I get to close?

They've been able to do that since 2nd edition...

Any infantry unit can get back up on a 5+ or even a 4+ with an upgrade? Welcome to free unit-ville, population Necrons.

This has also always been there... but in the current codex is considerably toned down from previous versions. Warriors also have a worse save than they used to.

Necrons are strong no doubt about it. They have weaknesses though - low initiative and otherwise generally poor in melee. They have little long range support. Reanimation protocols can be beaten by killing the entire unit before the end of the turn, whereas Feel No Pain happens as each wound is rolled so that's a significant weakness.

Yonan is right about the Necrons weaknesses. This is where synergy comes in to double or triple their strengths.
The codex is really good. Each Necron unit is playable and can be given a role in the game (bar Flayed Ones).

Are Necrons as unbalanced as you think?

Probably more.

They are an army which covers most bases so effectively that their few weaknesses don't really matter.

Ally some Chaos Marines to gain a Helldrake.

Crons are extremely powerful. They probably have the naturally most powerful codex, they are very well suited for the 6th meta, and have several very competitive builds. That said, We'll Be Back and Gauss are not the root of the Necron's power. Necrons are powerful because they have tools to deal with virtually anything. Wraiths are either the most efficient or second most efficient Heavy-CC unit in the game. Night Scythes are hard to destroy transports in a world of easy to destroy transports. Annihilation Barges are incredibly effective mid strength shooting for killing tanks or infantry. Gauss can handle AV14. Tesla is very effective at snap-shotting. The list goes on.

Still, Necrons are far from unbeatable. Their troops are still somewhat expensive and they don't have great ways of pushing blobs off of objectives. What general gameplan does your friend have in mind?

If he is running AV13 spam then lascannons (which have gotten more useful in 6th now that MLs aren't great) are a great choice. If he is running Silver Tide then strong CC units or a Heldrake will make quick work of them. If he is running lots of Wraiths then S8 weapons and light weaponry are your friends. If he is running flyer spam then.... well there aren't that many great solutions to the flying bakery but allying into Tau and careful positioning can get you pretty far.

Yeah kinda got agree with a few statements here.
The crons are powerful but not because of the Gauss of getting back up.
Though a side not; they are the only basic troop in the game, that I know of, that can take out a landraider.

They have a few very broken units that are either broke on their own or become broke when taken in force (or with a surpporting unit)
Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

Another good example is Deathmarks. After deployment each unit of Deathmarks on the board can mark one of the oppositions units so that it can be wounded on a 2+ (Melee or ranged) where it gets cheesy is that the 2+ to wound applies to every unit of death marks not just the ones in the unit. It also applies to any characters within the unit as well. This is a force multiplier thing, the more deathmarks taken the worst it becomes.

Impotek is another who becomes deadly the larger a game gets. He has this lighting based attack at the start of each shooting phase where every enemy unit on the boards rolls a die and on a 1 (or 6 can't recall) it is hit. So again the larger points value a game the more units a foe is likely to have and the more cheesy it becomes.

I could go on but at the end of the day you just have to hope your oppopent is kind and brings a fluffier list

JaamDaMan wrote:
I haven't played against them yet

I think I found your problem

They're strong but not overpowered by any stretch. Their aircraft and some units like Wraiths are hard to deal with. Armies you haven't played against or have limited experience against can often seem very strong, but what you see on paper doesn't always compare to what you see on the tabletop. Try playing against them and see if that changes your tune.

Here's a hint: Assault them.

No, they are not imbalanced.
If I know that 20 Warriors can kill a Land Raider, than I keep my LR as far away as possible from those warriors.

And 20 warriors are "easily" countered.
If they make a fallback move, they don't reanimate.
You can easily get a Sweeping Advance and destroy them.

Cron-range is usually 24"
Stuff like Vindicators can easily take out a large portion of their army after which you send it troops to clear them.

And 2+-saves is dangerous to them, we hardly have anything against that.

Necrons are probably a little too good. Anni Barges, Wraiths, Night Scythes should all probably be a bit pricier. If the prices were appropriate, the army would be fine. But 18 Wraiths, 3 Barges and 4-5 Scythes is too much for most armies to deal with.

Necrons really are by far the best adapted army for 6th editions core rules.

When it comes to HP's, they obviously have the tools to strip them en-masse between Gauss and Tesla weapons for light/mid AV vehicles. They get lots of mitigation with AV13 shields and an extra HP on their basic transport.

Necrons have it really great when it comes to Flyers, with very good flyer units available en-masse and a special rule that negates pretty much everything bad about being a flyer transport.

They make great use of the new character mechanics from precision shots to challenges between Cryptek abilities/wargear and Mindshackle scarabs and the like.

Tesla weapons are absolute boss when it comes to snapshots, allowing what averages to be BS3 shooting with normal Tesla weapons and what averages to BS8 shooting with TL Tesla weapons when shapshotting.

Necron CC units also generally got better with 6E due to charge changes (beasts especially) and that they don't care about most of the things that really hurt most other armies CC units like assaulting from transports and/or reserves.

On top of that, NightFight plays a more active and powerful role than it did in previous editions and no army can manipulate that better, or force it on an opponent in the same way, as Necrons can.


So, ultimately, it's not so much a matter of individual units being "zomgwtfbroken" (barring the Stormlord), but rather the entire army as a whole being built largely to take more advantage of the 6E rules or mitigate their impact on the effectiveness of the army far more than other armies.

Warriors are far from the only basic troops that can take out a landraider.

Ork mobs or similar with a Powerclaw/fist can in CC, as can Plaguebearers w with their Touch of Rust.

Dark Eldar can pack three Darklight weapons into a warrior squad, or stuff a wych squad full of haywire for CC and a blaster for close range vehicle kills.



As to Necrons, they are a rough fight. They are a Warddex written for 6th, and are consequently a tad uber. They can still be beaten, as listed above. Get in CC with them, or focus your fire until the unit is destroyed, then move on.

I think he means basic in the sense there are no upgrades. Just stock weapon. All your examples include upgrades where as the basic warrior can hurt a LR. A basic ork, SM, guardsman, etc cannot.

But at the same time necron units dont get champions or heavy weapons.

Plaguebearers are stock, if you are using that interpretation.

Touch of Rust comes as standard.

JaamDaMan wrote:
Gauss weapons now can kill my Land Raider if I get to close? 20 shots is bound to get some 6s.
Any infantry unit can get back up on a 5+ or even a 4+ with an upgrade? Welcome to free unit-ville, population Necrons.
Fliers for days which are incredibly powerful now in 6th ed.

I haven't played against them yet but I've been doing some research since one of my friends told me he's going to be fielding a Necron army and I'm wondering. Is this for real? Are these guys really as imbalanced as I think they are? If so, how can I counter that?

No, they aren't.

Try playing against them for once, instead of posting a thread we already have enough of.

No.

They're twice as unbalanced as you think they are.

Dun, dun dunnnnn

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No, they aren't.

Try playing against them for once, instead of posting a thread we already have enough of.

Worst idea ever!
Like many people he will focus on the wrong things, ignore the wrong things and basically counter them in a completely wrong way.
Then he comes back and claims they are indeed overpowered.

If Necrons were so overpowered, they'd top all the tournaments.
Fact is: They don't, because those people know how to counter Necrons.

Kangodo wrote:

If Necrons were so overpowered, they'd top all the tournaments.
Fact is: They don't, because those people know how to counter Necrons.

You sure about that?

At Adepticon, generally considered to be the biggest 40k around, of the top 10 lists, 5 were Necron armies and 2 others had Necron allies. 70% of the top 10 armies included Necrons.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

If Necrons were so overpowered, they'd top all the tournaments.
Fact is: They don't, because those people know how to counter Necrons.

You sure about that?

At Adepticon, generally considered to be the biggest 40k around, of the top 10 lists, 5 were Necron armies and 2 others had Necron allies. 70% of the top 10 armies included Necrons.

Probably because they are the most recent 40K Codex released that you can actually read without risking brain seizure.

Necron are a good army with a few overpowered units such as Wraiths and their flyers. I run a Silver Tide list and it's very fair and balanced list.

 Vaktathi wrote:
At Adepticon, generally considered to be the biggest 40k around, of the top 10 lists, 5 were Necron armies and 2 others had Necron allies. 70% of the top 10 armies included Necrons.

I know, but I also looked at 5 random other big tournaments.. They were mostly IG or CSM.

Kangodo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At Adepticon, generally considered to be the biggest 40k around, of the top 10 lists, 5 were Necron armies and 2 others had Necron allies. 70% of the top 10 armies included Necrons.

I know, but I also looked at 5 random other big tournaments.. They were mostly IG or CSM.

Most big US GTs have more Necron showings than anything else.

IG, CSM and Necrons do good for one reason: overpowered flyers. That's it. Take those away and you'd have a lot more variety.

 Sigvatr wrote:
IG, CSM and Necrons do good for one reason: overpowered flyers. That's it. Take those away and you'd have a lot more variety.

I dunno about that, Necrons are still better adapted to the game in terms of snapshots, character rules, Nightfight and HP's than any other army in the game, and have a much easier time getting their assault units in position relative to many other armies that rely on closed top transports or reserves/outflanking.

We will take over this galaxy......

OP, dont get to worked up! Have fun with the new challenge.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

JaamDaMan wrote:
Gauss weapons now can kill my Land Raider if I get to close? 20 shots is bound to get some 6s.
Any infantry unit can get back up on a 5+ or even a 4+ with an upgrade? Welcome to free unit-ville, population Necrons.
Fliers for days which are incredibly powerful now in 6th ed.

I haven't played against them yet but I've been doing some research since one of my friends told me he's going to be fielding a Necron army and I'm wondering. Is this for real? Are these guys really as imbalanced as I think they are? If so, how can I counter that?

No, they aren't.

Try playing against them for once, instead of posting a thread we already have enough of.

thanks for that, it really does get a little old. I understand that we may have some "undercosted" units (scythes being specifically what i find the worst) but the fact that we can cover most roles does not make us over powered. it just means we dont need to take allies as much (even then we have limited s9 and s10) Gauss is NOT as reliable as people think for destroying vehicles. a unit of 10 anythings mathematically gets 2.12 glances per turn on vehicles (yes this is rapidfire). Sure you can roll lucky, but tht isnt going to destroy any vehicle in one round of shooting save for DE venoms IIRC

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
IG, CSM and Necrons do good for one reason: overpowered flyers. That's it. Take those away and you'd have a lot more variety.

I dunno about that, Necrons are still better adapted to the game in terms of snapshots, character rules, Nightfight and HP's than any other army in the game, and have a much easier time getting their assault units in position relative to many other armies that rely on closed top transports or reserves/outflanking.

...and on the other hand, Nightfight was nerfed in 6th, Necrons still are terrible in cc most of the time and all of their vehicles are open-topped, making it very easy to take them out. A droppod list, e.g. is a huge threat to Necrons.

Sigvatr wrote:

...and on the other hand, Nightfight was nerfed in 6th,

Only in some regards, stuff like ordnance barrage weapons under the old rules could still hit the whole board whereas they can't now, and if you were spotted under the old rules you didn't get huge cover save bonuses.

Necrons still are terrible in cc most of the time

Wraiths, Scarabs, Lords with warscythes and MSS, cheap tomb spyders, they make for fearsome CC power if the Necron army desires it.

and all of their vehicles are open-topped, making it very easy to take them out.

AV13 shields say otherwise (at least, relative to most everyone else's equivalent vehicles), you need at least an S8 weapon for the open-topped to even potentially come into play. AV13 Open-Topped (even if only AV13 until penetrated) is going to last longer on average on a 6E table than AV12 closed-topped.

A droppod list, e.g. is a huge threat to Necrons.

Depends entirely on the list style you're playing, but that's also one of the few SM list types that didn't get smacked hard by the 6E rules.

Sorry - not to fan the flames but i saw a post earlier saying that Necron Flyers are especially har to kill.......

At AV11 why are they so much harder to kill than other army's flyers? Am i missing something?

Necron's have 3 things in the codex that IMO are overpowered. They are overpowered mostly because they are way underpriced for what they do. The 3 things are:

Anihilation barges, AV 13 vehicle that has 4 twn linked S7 Shots that produces more hits on 6's that's pretty much almost an auto 6 S7 hits a turn, all for 90 points.

Night Scyths. Really decent anti flier with accurate S7 shooting that creats more hits on 6s. Also alows for 36" movement of tropps without having to hover/become vunerable to shooting and of course 3HP. Further they completely avoid the mechanism in the game designed to balance fliers as transports. All of this clocking in at 100 points.

Finally, MSS for 15 points you have a 50% chance of basically having an oposing model get to try and kill itself. completely rediculous given the challenge rules.

These 3 things take Necrons from good to the best army in the game.

Pony_law wrote:
Necron's have 3 things in the codex that IMO are overpowered. They are overpowered mostly because they are way underpriced for what they do. The 3 things are:

Anihilation barges, AV 13 vehicle that has 4 twn linked S7 Shots that produces more hits on 6's that's pretty much almost an auto 6 S7 hits a turn, all for 90 points.

Night Scyths. Really decent anti flier with accurate S7 shooting that creats more hits on 6s. Also alows for 36" movement of tropps without having to hover/become vunerable to shooting and of course 3HP. Further they completely avoid the mechanism in the game designed to balance fliers as transports. All of this clocking in at 100 points.

Finally, MSS for 15 points you have a 50% chance of basically having an oposing model get to try and kill itself. completely rediculous given the challenge rules.

These 3 things take Necrons from good to the best army in the game.

1) Its AP-. Those S7 hits aren't going to do much against that actually has an armor save, and will do poorly against AV13 and will do nothing against AV14. They also take up a heavy slot each, are not scoring units (unless you are playing a certain mission), and has 24" range on their tesla destructor.

2) The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless. Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying. So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle. You know what kills AV11? Everything. It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...unless your opponent is packing skyfire/weapons with a high rate of fire, which you should be having in the current ruleset.

3) MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

1) Its AP-. Those S7 hits aren't going to do much against that actually has an armor save

Aside from generate lots of hits that wound on a 2+ against most infantry and ID T3 units.

and will do poorly against AV13 and will do nothing against AV14.

While at the same time being exceedingly effective against the far more common AV12 and under type vehicles.

2) The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

The big issue with the Nightscythe is the effect of negating all harm to embarked units if the transport is destroyed, which is not necessary to make it useful.

Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying.

Which really should be contributing to the army as well, so there's not a whole lot wrong there.

So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle.

an AV11 vehicle *and* a squad of infantry. Not a small difference there.

You know what kills AV11? Everything. It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...unless your opponent is packing skyfire/weapons with a high rate of fire

So 1 unit from the IG codex, 1 unit from the Tau codex that really fit both, and a smattering of very expensive low RoF weapons from other books

3) MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

You're right, it in fact has a greater than 50% chance of working against it's least effective targets (Ld10 units).

 Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote: MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

You're right, it in fact has a greater than 50% chance of working against it's least effective targets (Ld10 units).

No, exactly 50% should be right on LD10. 3d6 gives a result from 3-18. Half of those numbers will work on LD10.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote: MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

You're right, it in fact has a greater than 50% chance of working against it's least effective targets (Ld10 units).

No, exactly 50% should be right on LD10. 3d6 gives a result from 3-18. Half of those numbers will work on LD10.

you're right, rounding error on my part, average is 10.5 which I rounded to 11.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aside from generate lots of hits that wound on a 2+ against most infantry and ID T3 units.

How many T3 models are there that would care about being ID? Plus: An AB gets like, iirc, 6 hits in per shot, which results in 5 wounds, then come the, most of the time, 3+ saves thus on average, you get about 1.p6 dead Marines per turn. On the other hand, if 1 lascannon hits the thing, it's likely to immediately blow up. +3 on the wounding chart, bam. Even a Weapon Destroyed result has a 50% chance to make the model useless for the remainder of the game.

While at the same time being exceedingly effective against the far more common AV12 and under type vehicles.

It's good for killing light transports. Like a lot of other things.

The big issue with the Nightscythe is the effect of negating all harm to embarked units if the transport is destroyed, which is not necessary to make it useful.

The flyer gets into play, at best, in turn 2, if it then gets shot down, its content gets into play by turn 3, which means that the content missed about 50% of the game and has to footslog to the enemy...sure, not being destroyed sounds good at first. But on the other hand, it's not that awesome either unless you planned to use the content to secure your home objective.

You know what kills AV11? Everything. It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...unless your opponent is packing skyfire/weapons with a high rate of fire So 1 unit from the IG codex, 1 unit from the Tau codex that really fit both, and a smattering of very expensive low RoF weapons from other books

Are you kidding? Are we talking about the same army that currently has the, by far, most overpowered model in the entire game in its codex? You can have our Doomscythes anyday if we get your Vendettas please. Helldrakes? A lot of stuff Tau can pack? Havocs? Aegis Defense LIne? Sigh.

@sigvatr a lascannon penning an anni barge only has +2 to the damage result. Unless lascannons became AP1 while I wasn't looking or AP2 suddenly adds another point now. AP2-+1, open topped +1.

I know it's only a 16% difference but its still there.

Necrons would be the perfectly balanced codex if not for one thing, a flyer as a troop transport. Other than that almost every unit has perfect balance. Only a few things suck, lychguard, praetorians, c'tan, monolith, and doomsday ark(only because the heavy slot has so many other amazing things in it). Overall its a codex GW could study and learn a thing or two from.

I can't actually believe I read someone complaining that the AB is not good enough, it is a f*&king benchmark for efficiency all models should be so perfectly balanced in price and utility.

Quick note - Wraiths can't get an extra attack by taking a pistol, to whoever made that comment. :p

The only OP list is the max AB + NS + 3 x Wraith units with DL

But if your buddy only ever plays that list well....

It really is just a net / tournament list anyway IMO.

They are a powerful codex, with a few VERY good units, but mostly they are very forgiving to mistakes (as are a few other armies, but crons are more so) - thus seem stronger than they are.

Leverage the fact that most of their weapons are short range, thus force them to make deployment choices where they any one part of your forces cannot be targeted by the majority of theirs.

Play smart, work toward objectives, and kill entire units at a time.

Sigvatr wrote:

How many T3 models are there that would care about being ID?

Admittedly not a huge number, but it's there.

Plus: An AB gets like, iirc, 6 hits in per shot, which results in 5 wounds, then come the, most of the time, 3+ saves thus on average, you get about 1.p6 dead Marines per turn.

Which is also about equal to what you'd get from a quad setup of BS4 Heavy Bolters. Are they the most murderously effective MEQ killers in the game? No. Are they particularly bad at it? No. For 90pts, that's not bad at all considering how much fire other units often require to get the same damage output.

On the other hand, if 1 lascannon hits the thing, it's likely to immediately blow up. +3 on the wounding chart, bam.

Huh? First it only has a 1/3 chance to pen (and thus, have anything to do with the damage charge) if it still has its shields, then it only gets +2 on the chart (AP2 and Open Topped), not a +3, unless I'm missing something.

Even a Weapon Destroyed result has a 50% chance to make the model useless for the remainder of the game.

That's true of many if not most gun-tanks. Basilisks, Vindicators, Fire Prisms, Hammerheads, Leman Russ tanks that didn't buy sponsons, Vypers, Sentinels, etc. It's not unique by any means to Annihilation Barges.

It's good for killing light transports. Like a lot of other things.

Yes, it just happens to be more than 90pts good at it.

The flyer gets into play, at best, in turn 2, if it then gets shot down, its content gets into play by turn 3, which means that the content missed about 50% of the game and has to footslog to the enemy...sure, not being destroyed sounds good at first. But on the other hand, it's not that awesome either unless you planned to use the content to secure your home objective.

Which is often really important, and that's 3-5 turns to hoof it to another objective. It's far more lenient than an S10 AP2 hit to every model embarked.

Are you kidding? Are we talking about the same army that currently has the, by far, most overpowered model in the entire game in its codex?

Yes, the Vendetta is ridiculous which nobody will argue, but they're alos much more restricted in terms of how many you can effectively take. I will however take issue with the point that there's tons of weapons that will routinely carve Scythe's out of the sky on a regular basis, there's a small handful. It's not unique to Necrons, but they can take the largest number of independent flyers in the game so they are the ones where it's the greatest issue.

Helldrakes? A lot of stuff Tau can pack? Havocs? Aegis Defense LIne? Sigh.

Helldrakes without the Autocannon aren't stupendous at it and would likely prefer to generally target infantry instead. Aegis lines? We're talking one gun there that's got a merely decent chance. Tau have a couple of decent counters, but they have to custom build them and that Skyfire upgrade isn't cheap. That's part of the problem with Flyers in general, which Necrons are really able to exploit. The other best counters are other Necron armies with their own quantities of flyers and Tesla weapons.


It's not just any one thing that makes Necrons as powerful in the metagame as they are right now, it's multiple things that synergize with each other really well. Great flyers that mitigate bad things about being flyers, Tesla weapons generating tons of hits on 6's making Snapfire a minor inconvenience instead of a Hail Mary, MSS and Crypteks taking huge advantage of the new character rules, Wargear and HQ's being able to take more advantage of Nightfight than any other army (I've seen a Necron army keep an opponent under Nightfight conditions for an entire game at least twice, Stormlord's ability lasted out to turn 3, Crypteks keep it going on opponents turn until Nightfight kicked in the last few turns).

Kangodo wrote:
No, they are not imbalanced.
If I know that 20 Warriors can kill a Land Raider, than I keep my LR as far away as possible from those warriors.

And 20 warriors are "easily" countered.
If they make a fallback move, they don't reanimate.
You can easily get a Sweeping Advance and destroy them.

Cron-range is usually 24"
Stuff like Vindicators can easily take out a large portion of their army after which you send it troops to clear them.

And 2+-saves is dangerous to them, we hardly have anything against that.

Well, Necrons have a counter for this.
A Night Scythe can transport up to 15 models and can bring them quickly into the enemy back field. So your Vindicator or LR will not be safe. The Vindicator would be a high priority target. Necrons can make short work with such a tank by side shots from tesla annihilators fired from Night/Doom Scythes. Doom Scythes even have an S10 ray that can hardly be countered.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Necrons have a counter for this.
A Night Scythe can transport up to 15 models and can bring them quickly into the enemy back field. So your Vindicator or LR will not be safe. The Vindicator would be a high priority target. Necrons can make short work with such a tank by side shots from tesla annihilators fired from Night/Doom Scythes. Doom Scythes even have an S10 ray that can hardly be countered.

Ally In some Tau.

Necron NS dies the turn it comes in (opponents turn).

15 models go back into reserve and miss half the game.

Win.

bodazoka wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Necrons have a counter for this.
A Night Scythe can transport up to 15 models and can bring them quickly into the enemy back field. So your Vindicator or LR will not be safe. The Vindicator would be a high priority target. Necrons can make short work with such a tank by side shots from tesla annihilators fired from Night/Doom Scythes. Doom Scythes even have an S10 ray that can hardly be countered.

Ally In some Tau.

Necron NS dies the turn it comes in (opponents turn).

15 models go back into reserve and miss half the game.

Win.

Tau are a different story if you play Necrons. Frankly, I have not yet faced the new Tau. But any army can have a hard time when the Necrons manage to get into the 24'' range.

Necron player checking in, and there are definitely elements of the codex that can be abused: flyerspam, wraith spam, and the unfunness of Mindshackle Scarabs.

That said, if you're playing socially and your friend busts that out, he's not playing for fun. The same could be said of Psycannon spam Grey Knights, triple Heldrake Chaos Marines, and certain other lists.

As a necron player who doesn't abuse those things (but who does use Annihilation Barges, resurrection orbs, and one flyer) there are certain things I find tough.

Lots of ork boyz and looters. Lots of firewarrior. Missilesides. Tough infantry that I can't afford to ignore (e.g. plague marines). Scatter laser war walkers hurt. Dark Angels with a standard of devastation.

Even AV14 can be a pain. Sure, if you slowly trundle your Land Raider up to 20 warriors (in to rapid fire range) they have a 66% chance of glancing it to death in one volley. Outisde of rapid fire range the chances of pulling that off is only 17%. Once they can destroy the land raider, you're probably close enough that you can mulch the warriors with whatever you had in it anyway. And 20 warriors plus a res orb with a body to carry it is - at a minimum - 325 points. And you never had to bring your land raider anywhere near it.

MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

Necrons and Tau have epic good battles with the new codex. Two of the strongest shooting armies in the game.

tgf wrote:
MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

Necrons and Tau have epic good battles with the new codex. Two of the strongest shooting armies in the game.

Yes, because buying my captain a power sword or using a character to change the composition of my army is "douchey". It's just a kind of mean spirited upgrade. If it caused them to punch themselves in the face on a regular leadership test instead of a 3d6 one, I wouldn't mind it as much. Anything that takes control of your units away from you isn't a fun game mechanic if you ask me.

tgf wrote:
MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

And the non-douchey characters that 95% of the playerbase runs have to deal with that...why? Hell, many of the "douchey" characters aren't even that killy. This is a ridiculous line of reasoning to justify MSS.

Most SM-chapters have a sergeant in the squad where they attach the HQ.
So the sergeant can always take the challenge

Kangodo wrote:
Most SM-chapters have a sergeant in the squad where they attach the HQ.
So the sergeant can always take the challenge

For all of one round of combat. While most Necron units will fold after a turn in assault, a unit with a Necron Lord of some sort attached is probably a lot scarier. Even then, sometimes the Lords run around on their own, so either the rest of the squad is diddling around while one character challenges (or has to for Chaos Marines) or he's having your killy dudes attack their own squad or something. Mind Shackle Scarabs are a pretty obnoxious upgrade.

 Brother SRM wrote:
For all of one round of combat. While most Necron units will fold after a turn in assault, a unit with a Necron Lord of some sort attached is probably a lot scarier.

I think you meant to say: "Less of a joke."
And yeah, when I put 100 points in a model to stop my 20 warriors from getting "gakked in the gak" in melee, then the least I expect is that it doesn't suck in melee. (because that is kinda the point of this model!)

Even then, sometimes the Lords run around on their own, so either the rest of the squad is diddling around while one character challenges (or has to for Chaos Marines) or he's having your killy dudes attack their own squad or something. Mind Shackle Scarabs are a pretty obnoxious upgrade.

It are 15 points for a 50% chance with an average of 2 attacks against their own squad.

It's a real fluffy upgrade and it's quite good if you want to waste points on lords instead of crypteks.

 Brother SRM wrote:

tgf wrote:
MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

Necrons and Tau have epic good battles with the new codex. Two of the strongest shooting armies in the game.

Yes, because buying my captain a power sword or using a character to change the composition of my army is "douchey". It's just a kind of mean spirited upgrade. If it caused them to punch themselves in the face on a regular leadership test instead of a 3d6 one, I wouldn't mind it as much. Anything that takes control of your units away from you isn't a fun game mechanic if you ask me.

Case in point, Yuri's Revenge.

Fighting an army whose ENTIRE GIMMICK is mind control.

That was ungodly painful even in a game where you can produce units.

lol people are actually trying to argue that Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes, and MSS aren't extremely strong? I guess I've seen everything now.

Kangodo wrote:
I think you meant to say: "Less of a joke."

T5, potentially 2+/3++, and the obligatory S7 AP1 Warscythe, not exactly a weak dumpling there.

And yeah, when I put 100 points in a model to stop my 20 warriors from getting "gakked in the gak" in melee, then the least I expect is that it doesn't suck in melee. (because that is kinda the point of this model!)

There's a difference between putting some CC power in a squad and turning an opponents power back on itself, and that's the issue here.

It are 15 points for a 50% chance with an average of 2 attacks against their own squad.

And forfeitting all attacks against the enemy, likely with the only model that has any meaningful striking power, and not everything is Ld10.

It's a real fluffy upgrade and it's quite good if you want to waste points on lords instead of crypteks.

Fluffy is entirely debateable. Of course it's a good upgrade because it removes your opponents hidden fist or their killy HQ from the combat equation at least half the time if not more and isn't exactly putting much stress on the list at 15pts.

I'm sorry, but saying that MSS aren't very strong or even "fluff" or even a "waste of points" kinda makes you look...funny...I mean, 50% chance to automatically win a challenge at 15 pts alone would be awesome, but even w/o challenges, getting people to hit themselves is damn good especially with Force weapons etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
T5, potentially 2+/3++, and the obligatory S7 AP1 Warscythe, not exactly a weak dumpling there.

That's why I didn't call him weak.
It's actually a right amount of power that I expect from a model that is 150 points.

There's a difference between putting some CC power in a squad and turning an opponents power back on itself, and that's the issue here.

1. Around 50% chance.
2. Only D3 attacks.
3. This is how Necrons melee, they hardly have anything else. It's what the entire race is all about: Using technology.

And forfeiting all attacks against the enemy, likely with the only model that has any meaningful striking power, and not everything is Ld10.

Then you have a few options:
A) Shoot the Lord first.
B) Don't accept the challenge.
C) Charge something else.
Your pick!
I'd go with option D: Charge nevertheless, kick their ass, destroy the entire unit and accept that it won't be without casualties because he spent 150 units to make a 260-pnt unit less sucky in melee.

Fluffy is entirely debateable. Of course it's a good upgrade because it removes your opponents hidden fist or their killy HQ from the combat equation at least half the time if not more and isn't exactly putting much stress on the list at 15pts.

Why isn't it fluffy?
Necron fight by using gadgets.
MSS is one of the coolest gadgets they have.

The problem with MSS is a Necron-problem in general.
To make your entire unit less sucky in melee you need to: Take a (named) Overlord to open up for Royal Court > Take a Lord > Use the mandatory upgrades for the Lord > Attach MSS to the Lord.
And they will probably still lose in melee, despite all the points you've put in them.

Have you ever seen what 5 terminators can do against 2x20 Necron Warriors if you don't attach Lords?
I forgot to add them once and it was brutal.

I'd buy the notion that MSS is a countermeasure as necrons are bad at CC... if we didn't have warscythe as well, against marines who have to strike at I1 for AP2, our warscythe HQ has a good chance at chopping that sarge down before he even strikes, and that's a decent assault sarge being chopped down by the "weak CC" necron... And "weak CC" necrons also have the wraiths... so yeah.

And for comparison's sake... My 160pts archon is T3, 2++, S3 AP2 ID sword, with high WS and high I, high WS isn't that great, the WS table is crap... High I is good, but everything is lost when I roll that to-wound table with a S3(6+ on an overlord, mind you), and there really aren't that many character in necron army I could pick off for my soul trap. So if for 150pts, you expect a HQ that can make the opponent's HQ kill himself, and then make high strength AP1 attacks, as well as being able to get back up at a 50% chance(res orb included), then what should I expect for my 160pts archon? I believe marines have to pay through their nose for a good combat HQ as well... 150pts only make overlord seems like an even better HQ rather than make it seems "reasonable"...

It's absurd how much people are trying to downplay necrons' strength/overpowerness, it kinda reminds me of how the privileged like to play that they're the 99%! I play necrons too, and I would never ever downplay how strong our army is. It's not uncounterable, obviously, throw in a decent flyer defence force, and the flyers are gone. Don't get into CC with the MSS lord, then those points are wasted. et cetera. But necron codex is still miles better than most out there. Is it "imbalanced" though? Well, of course it isn't our codex is very balanced! What is "imbalanced" is how outdated some codices are, how Mat Ward writes, and update necrons with more favourable rules each FAQ update. Just admit we're the current favourite of GW, there's no shame in that, it's not our fault that we're lovable!

Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.

Kangodo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
T5, potentially 2+/3++, and the obligatory S7 AP1 Warscythe, not exactly a weak dumpling there.

That's why I didn't call him weak.
It's actually a right amount of power that I expect from a model that is 150 points.

You said "less of a joke", implying it's still some level of joke, which it is not.

1. Around 50% chance.

Assuming Ld10, increasing 63% at Ld9 and ~75% at Ld8

2. Only D3 attacks.

*only*, so usually as many or almost as many as it would normally get, and it doesn't get to strike at the enemy

3. This is how Necrons melee, they hardly have anything else.

Wraiths, scarabs, hilariously cheap units of MC's, C'tan shards, etc?

It's what the entire race is all about: Using technology.

No other Necron unit functions anything like MSS, they all either have lots of attacks or very hard hitting attacks, nothing relies on turning an enemy against itself.

A) Shoot the Lord first.

Hidden in a unit? Not easy.

B) Don't accept the challenge.

In which case the character still doesn't get to do anything.

C) Charge something else.

Not always an option/may be critical to the game's outcome, and it's not like Necrons never initiate charges themselves. One of the Necron armies I routinely face is built around using Lords with scythes and MSS with warrior blobs as delivery systems.

The problem with MSS is a Necron-problem in general.
To make your entire unit less sucky in melee you need to: Take a (named) Overlord to open up for Royal Court > Take a Lord > Use the mandatory upgrades for the Lord > Attach MSS to the Lord.
And they will probably still lose in melee, despite all the points you've put in them.

Have you ever seen what 5 terminators can do against 2x20 Necron Warriors if you don't attach Lords?
I forgot to add them once and it was brutal.

5 terminators in combat against 40 warriors at once? On average (assuming neither side charged) the Warriors will kill 2 terminators before they can strike, the terminators will strike back and kill an average of...2-3 Warriors. The Warriors will likely destroy the terminators by the 3rd round of combat, and even if the Necrons break the Terminators cannot run them down.

That said, they're a dedicated CC unit, such results should be expected. Have you seen what 2x20 warriors do to 5 terminators? They evaporate them in one round of shooting. If you threw equivalent points of Wraiths into a Warrior unit they'd actually perform better than the Terminators on average.

You don't need a ridiculous piece of wargear to mitigate warriors CC shortcomings which largely amount to "we're just not amazing at it" as opposed to say, IG or tau who genuinely suck at it. They're still S4 WS4 and at least have a 4+ armor save.

tgf wrote:
Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.

Before you start throwing around terms like "butthurt" you should probably understand not every situation is ideal. If I could have a sergeant with a chainsword and bolt pistol fight the MSS Lord while my beatstick character throttles the rest of the Necron squad, I would. You just don't always have the opportunity to in a game with this many variables.

 Brother SRM wrote:

tgf wrote:
Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.

Before you start throwing around terms like "butthurt" you should probably understand not every situation is ideal. If I could have a sergeant with a chainsword and bolt pistol fight the MSS Lord while my beatstick character throttles the rest of the Necron squad, I would. You just don't always have the opportunity to in a game with this many variables.

True occasionally a necron player will out play you, sometimes you will out play him. The typical MSS complaint I see on the forums is, "oh noes, my swarm lord is not an auto-win only a 50/50 prop" CHEESE!!!

Beyond that someone else said, its not fun losing control of your character, at least you got to roll 3 dice and have a 50/50 shot. I guess in response I say it is fun removing your model without any dice being rolled at all. The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character. So in general, I think butt hurt is the proper way to describe most (not all) MSS complaints. People don't like the change in the natural order.

tgf wrote:
The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character.

This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

Also, anyone claiming that Necrons (as army) are poor in CC is lying. Point per point, Wraiths are currently one of the best CC units in the game. They might even be [b]the[b] best CC unit, considering that they are as tough as TH/SS terminators and are both cheaper and faster.

tgf wrote:
So in general, I think butt hurt is the proper way to describe most (not all) MSS complaints.

No it is not. You just don't have moral integrity required to admit that MSS is both poor piece of game design, and far too cheap for what it does.
You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army. I guess if you played IG, you'd say that everyone who complained about Vendettas being underpriced were "butt hurt" too?

MSS would be acceptable, if using it meant that Lord could not make any attacks or if the model would still make his normal attacks. Currently MSS is even worse piece of game design than Psychotrope grenades are, and that is quite achievement.

I admit that Runes of Warding is a terrible piece of wargear and I play Eldar....

....why can't a Necron player be objective enough to understand that MSS is just as bad if not worse?

And to answer the OP. Necrons are the benchmark army for MANY aspects of the game when it comes to point for value comparisons.

Their army, unlike the counters suggested here, don't need to worry about changing to contend other styles of play. Their lists is simply SO good at doing everything that the meta of other lists is nearly irrelevant.

I will admit that I don't include Tau on this as they are still new. But prior to that, two equally skilled players playing equal levels of competitiveness....Necrons are better than most if not all other armies.

Luide wrote:

tgf wrote:
The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character.

This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

For a 200 point model, he better win most CC engagements.

Out of curiosity, how much is your average CC specialist?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I admit that Runes of Warding is a terrible piece of wargear and I play Eldar....

....why can't a Necron player be objective enough to understand that MSS is just as bad if not worse?

Might have something to do with the long history of necrons dying to anything that gets into contact with them, especially MC. Its nice to have something that will make your opponent think twice before throwing a carnifex/demon prince/ Mephiston at a block of warriors for once.
I personally never had much luck with MSS. It doesn't actually work that well against LD10 in my experience; my opponent usually passes it.

Luide wrote:
This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

And what fights will it surely win without MSS against targets that are also almost 200 points?
A +/- 200pnt Over Lord SHOULD beat a 50pnt Sergeant with power fist.

Also, anyone claiming that Necrons (as army) are poor in CC is lying. Point per point, Wraiths are currently one of the best CC units in the game. They might even be [b]the[b] best CC unit, considering that they are as tough as TH/SS terminators and are both cheaper and faster.

Wraiths are extremely awesome in CC.
But one unit doesn't stop the army from being generally poor in CC.

No it is not. You just don't have moral integrity required to admit that MSS is both poor piece of game design, and far too cheap for what it does.

Wooow, that escalated quickly.
Are we attacking people because they disagree?

MSS without context is indeed overpowered.
MSS would be overpowered for almost every other army, but for Necrons it's a necessity to stop them from being too easily wiped out in CC.

'Crons are the kind of army where I would encourage using cheese against (and a degree of list building).

Recommend:
-Heldrakes

-AA if there is to be many fliers (or just use cheap cannon fodder for most of your army, and ignore).

-Plasmaguns/Meltaguns/Lascannons

-Things like Darnath Lysander Terminator deathstar with a Chaplain.

 Selym wrote:
'Crons are the kind of army where I would encourage using cheese against (and a degree of list building).

Recommend:
-Heldrakes

-AA if there is to be many fliers (or just use cheap cannon fodder for most of your army, and ignore).

-Plasmaguns/Meltaguns/Lascannons

-Things like Darnath Lysander Terminator deathstar with a Chaplain.

- Can't say I'm afraid of them. Don't have many CSM players here :/

- I am afraid of those. AA is necessary against necrons.

- Who aren't afraid of those? (besides hoards)

- Yeah, that's pretty nasty.

And what fights will it surely win without MSS against targets that are also almost 200 points?
A +/- 200pnt Over Lord SHOULD beat a 50pnt Sergeant with power fist.

It is sure that if I field Abadon the Despoiler (at 265pts if I remember correctly) against your below 200pts overlord, I want to see Abbadon utterly destroyed at 90% of the time... or else it wouldn't be fair

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For a 200 point model, he better win most CC engagements.

Actually, that Overlord is only 160 points. Remember that we're talking baseline Overlord without MSS, just Scythe, Weave and Phase shifter. (I even didn't take Ever-living into account at all when checking who wins the fight.)

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Out of curiosity, how much is your average CC specialist?

Depends on your definitions, but if we start from loyalist Marines who could even have a shot at that Lord (without MSS) with no extra wargear, TH/SS SM Captain is 170 points base. Artificer version with PF and SS is 155 points. Wolf Lords start from around same and go easily up to 200+ points purely from CC related gear. GK Brother-Captain starts from 150 points, but will only have 4++.

So cost is around same. And while Marines do have advantage of higher WS, remember that Overlord strikes first in all of those cases.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I admit that Runes of Warding is a terrible piece of wargear and I play Eldar....
....why can't a Necron player be objective enough to understand that MSS is just as bad if not worse?

For some reason, it seems that many Necron players have huge issues about viewing their army objectively.
Instead, they often attack anyone brings up issues like MSS, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes or Wraiths being undercosted into light.

Reason for that is unknown: most GK players in 5e (me included) were more than willing to admit that many portions of C:GK were horribly unbalanced in 5e. (5 points for Fortitude in 5e was complete joke, for example.) Why most Necron players in 6e are unwilling to do same, I don't know.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

No they're not. You're forgetting two very large things: 1) Wraiths have 2 wounds each. 2) Wraiths are Jump Infantry. (Also, Wraiths don't have WBB.)

So Thunderwolves, that cost 80 ppm, are S5 T5 3++, 4A rending and Cavalry. Wraiths cost 35 ppm, are S6 T4, 3++ and 3 attacks.
70 points of Wraiths have 50% more attacks, double wounds, wound MEQ at 2+ instead of 3+ and have T4 instead of T5 compared to 80 point TWC Do you still think TWC have "edge"?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

In the same way that a Storm Raven is useless? It has to hover to disembark troops.

Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying. So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle.

Pay for whatever it's carrying? Such as a unit of warriors which besides being scoring can easily glance AV14 to death. So yeah...It's like 265 points for a great troop unit AND and an AV11 flyer. Plus being a dedicated transport means that you can have six of them. SIX ! They're not eating up a Heavy Support slot or a Fast Attack slot like everyone elses' flyers.

It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...

And a free 5+ save (4+ if you move flat out), which is nicer still.

Dude I play Space Wolves. I'd love to have a Night Scythe - or any flyer actually. Just one. Please. How many flyers can Necrons put in their list?

For some reason, it seems that many Necron players have huge issues about viewing their army objectively.
Instead, they often attack anyone brings up issues like MSS, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes or Wraiths being undercosted into light.

Because Necrons are actually not the "bring whatever you want and ignore tactics while still beating everyone into the ground"-army that some people act like it is.

Maybe you can have a decent discussions when these discussions don't start with "Nerf all Necron-units because I lost to them!"

And we should really stop comparing unit to unit.
Or should we mention that Necrons have their cheapest transport at 100 while BA can get transport for 15?
See? We need context.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Are you kidding? Are we talking about the same army that currently has the, by far, most overpowered model in the entire game in its codex? You can have our Doomscythes anyday if we get your Vendettas please. Helldrakes? A lot of stuff Tau can pack? Havocs? Aegis Defense LIne? Sigh.

For the record, any army can have an ADL. You don't have to be imperial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'm sorry, but saying that MSS aren't very strong or even "fluff" or even a "waste of points" kinda makes you look...funny...I mean, 50% chance to automatically win a challenge at 15 pts alone would be awesome, but even w/o challenges, getting people to hit themselves is damn good especially with Force weapons etc.

Agreed. And by way of comparison, some people will pay 10 points for a piece of wargear that just lets them hit on a 3+ in CC. I'd totally pay for MSS if it means, 50% or greater chance of automatically winning a challenge while taking no damage in return AND getting 2 good attacks on the enemy squad to boot!

Kangodo wrote:

Luide wrote:
This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

And what fights will it surely win without MSS against targets that are also almost 200 points?
A +/- 200pnt Over Lord SHOULD beat a 50pnt Sergeant with power fist.

First, it is 160 points. Which is quite far from 200 points.

Second, Lord will win fight against 50 point sergeant with Power first trivially. Lord only needs Warscythe (10 points) to do it. Lord strikes first, sergeant doesn't get save and Lord is T5, he is not ID'd by S8 PF. So even 100 point Lord will easily beat that sergeant.
MSS just makes it basically impossible for anyone to even have a chance at beating the Lord, even if they spent 250+ points against the 175 points of the Lord with MSS.

Third. Why should 160 point Necron Overlord always win against 150-200 point dedicated CC-characters? This seems to be the starting point for all Necron players: "I've spent 160 points for my Lord, therefore he should always win all CC's with other characters that have spent 150-200 points".
I don't understand that viewpoint at all. Its like saying "I've spent 1500 points for my Necron army, therefore it should surely win against any other army that has spent 1500-2000 points".

Realistic expectatation should be that CC kitted Overlord should have around 50% chance of winning fight against similarly priced CC kitted characters. With MSS, the chance of winning is at least 75%, often more. And this is even against 250+ point characters.

Kangodo wrote:
Wraiths are extremely awesome in CC.
But one unit doesn't stop the army from being generally poor in CC

Actually, it does. Because of Wraiths, Necrons as army are not poor in CC.
Necrons as a army are actually pretty good in CC: They have arguably best CC unit in the game and they also have ultimate counter against all hard hitting MC's and characters.

Sure, Necron rank and file are bad at CC. But so are Tactical Marines. And because of RP, Immortals might be better in CC than tacticals are.

If you want to see army that is actually bad in CC, go look at Tau. But for some reason, there is neither no Wraith equivalent nor MSS equivalent in Tau army, even though by your arguments there absolutely should be.

Luide wrote:


Realistic expectatation should be that CC kitted Overlord should have around 50% chance of winning fight against similarly priced CC kitted characters. With MSS, the chance of winning is at least 75%, often more. And this is even against 250+ point characters.

You keep throwing a lot of numbers around, but I fail to see any valid argument backing those up. Let's start with this one then:

a) Where do you get the 50% from?

b) Where do you get the "at least" 75% win chance from?

c) What 250+ point characters?

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

In the same way that a Storm Raven is useless? It has to hover to disembark troops.

Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying. So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle.

Pay for whatever it's carrying? Such as a unit of warriors which besides being scoring can easily glance AV14 to death. So yeah...It's like 265 points for a great troop unit AND and an AV11 flyer. Plus being a dedicated transport means that you can have six of them. SIX ! They're not eating up a Heavy Support slot or a Fast Attack slot like everyone elses' flyers.

It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...

And a free 5+ save (4+ if you move flat out), which is nicer still.

Dude I play Space Wolves. I'd love to have a Night Scythe - or any flyer actually. Just one. Please. How many flyers can Necrons put in their list?

Flyers don't get the 5+ save when they move...


They can add as many flyers as they have points for...which is a poor idea, because then you are blowing all your points on something that might not show up, and can be shot down if your opponent is smart enough to carry AA.

Also, you do realize that scythes are expensive money wise? They are like, 30 bucks each.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

For a 200 point model, he better win most CC engagements.
Out of curiosity, how much is your average CC specialist?

A Wolf Lord with Thunderwolf mount build (there are more than one) usually clocks in at around 250 points. Logan Grimnar is 275 points. Against a 200 point Necron Lord with MSS, the Necron wins more than 50% of the time.

Luide wrote:
First, it is 160 points. Which is quite far from 200 points.

An Overlord with WS, 2+/3++ and a Resurrection Orb is almost 200 points.
If you don't take the Res Orb, you are doing it wrong.
Lords are added to not pack your stuff and go home against 2+-saves, to stop IC from annihilating you and to bring an Orb to the party.
They are doing that job perfectly fine.

Actually, it does. Because of Wraiths, Necrons as army are not poor in CC.

So Wraiths in your deployment are stopping my warriors from being swept away.. how exactly?

If you want to see army that is actually bad in CC, go look at Tau. But for some reason, there is neither no Wraith equivalent nor MSS equivalent in Tau army, even though by your arguments there absolutely should be.

Tau make up for that by having so much more 24"+ firepower and jet-packs.
Necrons actually want the opponent to be within 12-24", that is dangerously close to CC, so they need something to scare away random models.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

The Wraith does not have RP. Once you kill it (which is easy to do with S8), it stays dead.

Luide wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

No they're not. You're forgetting two very large things: 1) Wraiths have 2 wounds each. 2) Wraiths are Jump Infantry. (Also, Wraiths don't have WBB.)

So Thunderwolves, that cost 80 ppm, are S5 T5 3++, 4A rending and Cavalry. Wraiths cost 35 ppm, are S6 T4, 3++ and 3 attacks.
70 points of Wraiths have 50% more attacks, double wounds, wound MEQ at 2+ instead of 3+ and have T4 instead of T5 compared to 80 point TWC Do you still think TWC have "edge"?

I stand corrected. I didn't know Wraiths had 2 wounds. And move just as fast as cavalry? AND are immune to JotWW? All that for 35 points.

Damn. That's some smelly cheese right there.

I think it's fair to say that MSS is pretty significantly undercosted.

However, I think it's threat is a little overblown. You'll rarely see more than 1-2 models in an army with MSS. I only have it on my Destroyer Lord generally.


EDIT:

I stand corrected. I didn't know Wraiths had 2 wounds. And move just as fast as cavalry? AND are immune to JotWW? All that for 35 points.

Damn. That's some smelly cheese right there.

Wraiths are not immune to JOTWW.

In addition, A Wraith is as hard to kill as 2 marines with Volume of fire. Wraiths are undercosted, but I honestly don't believe significantly so.

 Sasori wrote:
I think it's fair to say that MSS is pretty significantly undercosted.

However, I think it's threat is a little overblown. You'll rarely see more than 1-2 models in an army with MSS. I only have it on my Destroyer Lord generally.

Oh yeah, it's undercosted. When I first saw it, I was like, "really, only 15 points? That's a bit cheap."

However, the sheer calls of cheese is a bit unwarranted.

Kangodo wrote:

For some reason, it seems that many Necron players have huge issues about viewing their army objectively.Instead, they often attack anyone brings up issues like MSS, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes or Wraiths being undercosted into light.

Maybe you can have a decent discussions when these discussions don't start with "Nerf all Necron-units because I lost to them!"

Thank you for proving my point. I guess you truly are the archetypical Necron player.

Kangodo wrote:
And we should really stop comparing unit to unit.

Why? Because it is best way to actually compare units and see which are underpriced and which are overpriced?

In 90% of cases, unit to unit comparisons work just fine. They only truly break when there are very heavy synergies one needs to take into account, like in Codex Tau.
But there is absolutely no problems comparing Wraiths to TWC or comparing GH to Tactical marines. In both cases, it is trivial to see how badly one is underpriced and how no-one could honestly claim anything else.

Kangodo wrote:
Or should we mention that Necrons have their cheapest transport at 100 while BA can get transport for 15?

That is because you're deliberately not taking into account that the "15 point transport" (actually 50 point transport with discount) also includes loss of jump packs, which are valued at 3 ppm, increasing its cost by 15-30 points.
Also, you're trying to misrepresent the issue here, the issue was never about "X costs 100 points and Y costs 15 points". It is about what one gets for those points.
For example, in comparison like that, if one had honest intentions about comparing transports, person would also have made note that one those transports is a Flier with (effectively) TL S7 AP- Heavy 6 weapon and other one is fast Rhino with storm bolter.
In other word, reason for the large difference in points is easily explainable by large difference in capabilities.

Luide wrote:

tgf wrote:
The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character.

This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

Also, anyone claiming that Necrons (as army) are poor in CC is lying. Point per point, Wraiths are currently one of the best CC units in the game. They might even be [b]the[b] best CC unit, considering that they are as tough as TH/SS terminators and are both cheaper and faster.

tgf wrote:
So in general, I think butt hurt is the proper way to describe most (not all) MSS complaints.

No it is not. You just don't have moral integrity required to admit that MSS is both poor piece of game design, and far too cheap for what it does.
You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army. I guess if you played IG, you'd say that everyone who complained about Vendettas being underpriced were "butt hurt" too?

MSS would be acceptable, if using it meant that Lord could not make any attacks or if the model would still make his normal attacks. Currently MSS is even worse piece of game design than Psychotrope grenades are, and that is quite achievement.

Like I said complete butt hurt, a 50/50 prop = always win. A 200+ point lord 3A at WS4 does not make a CC giant and he is hella expensive. I already said it is probably a bit cheap but remember it was designed in 7th before the retardation of close combat pile ins and it was much harder to get the desired pairing in CC every time. Comparing to psychotrope is laughable shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the game. I play against vendetta's and psychotrokes and all the other crap people cry about. If you are smart you can generally deal with it, and if its too much for you maybe you should try hero-clix, or checkers.

Luide wrote:
Thank you for proving my point. I guess you truly are the archetypical Necron player.

What point?

Why? Because it is best way to actually compare units and see which are underpriced and which are overpriced?

Because armies aren't homogenized.
Stuff that is overpriced for codex X can be underpriced in codex Y.
Like I said: Necrons really need something like MSS.
Space Marines would be awfully overpowered with MSS.

But there is absolutely no problems comparing Wraiths to TWC or comparing GH to Tactical marines. In both cases, it is trivial to see how badly one is underpriced and how no-one could honestly claim anything else.

Are TWC FA-units that can only be taken in groups of 6 in a codex that is mainly short-ranged shooty?

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

In the same way that a Storm Raven is useless? It has to hover to disembark troops.

Nightscythe can't hover, it has the Supersonic rule. Stormravens can. Stormravens can also disembark troops while zooming, albeit being less safe.

So without the 'invasion beams' rule, it would b a useless transport

 Sasori wrote:
In addition, A Wraith is as hard to kill as 2 marines with Volume of fire.

So are TH/SS terminators, which are considered "the standard" for being hard to kill. Remember also that with plasma, Wraith is twice as hard to kill as TH/SS terminator. On average, about same though.

 Sasori wrote:
Wraiths are undercosted, but I honestly don't believe significantly so.

Compare them to units that are similarly tough, like TH/SS and TWC. And then take into account how much cheaper Wraiths are and how much would marine player be willing to pay for Jump Pack equipped TH/SS termies.
Personally, I'd say something they're undercosted by around 7-10 ppm. Would still be competitive at that point level, but not auto-take they're now.

If MSS cost 50 points people would still buy it. It's an auto-include because it's the single best piece of HQ wargear in the game for neutralizing other commanders. Now that we have this idiotic challenge mechanic the problem is exacerbated. If we didn't have to challenge and weren't actively penalized for not accepting, it would be an appropriately costed piece of wargear.

Not sure about that, 50 points is quite an investment.
In my opinion the downside to MSS is the limited amount of units that can take this upgrade.

My list is already as tight as possible, I cannot spare the 3/4 Lords with MSS to put in every group.
Most of the time I'd rather have an Orb among my warriors to stop the opponent from actually getting into CC.

Luide wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
In addition, A Wraith is as hard to kill as 2 marines with Volume of fire.

So are TH/SS terminators, which are considered "the standard" for being hard to kill. Remember also that with plasma, Wraith is twice as hard to kill as TH/SS terminator. On average, about same though.

 Sasori wrote:
Wraiths are undercosted, but I honestly don't believe significantly so.

Compare them to units that are similarly tough, like TH/SS and TWC. And then take into account how much cheaper Wraiths are and how much would marine player be willing to pay for Jump Pack equipped TH/SS termies.
Personally, I'd say something they're undercosted by around 7-10 ppm. Would still be competitive at that point level, but not auto-take they're now.

Right, which is why I mentioned volume of fire, and not high AP weapons. I tend to find Wraiths themselves, while durable, are not too difficult to take down. It's the Dlord with he 2+ tanking shots, that puts them over the top.


I do compare them to TWC, and don't believe they are undercosted compared to them. TWC have several advantages over Wraiths, while Wraiths have a few over TWC.

I'd say a 5 point cost increase would be fair, 10 at most.

f MSS cost 50 points people would still buy it. It's an auto-include because it's the single best piece of HQ wargear in the game for neutralizing other commanders. Now that we have this idiotic challenge mechanic the problem is exacerbated. If we didn't have to challenge and weren't actively penalized for not accepting, it would be an appropriately costed piece of wargear.

No, people would not buy it if it was 50 points. That is far far to much.

tgf wrote:

Luide wrote:

You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army.

Like I said complete butt hurt, a 50/50 prop = always win.

You delibarately seem to discount the fact that the Lord can actually fight in CC. I wonder why, is it because it undermines your position, and badly?
MSS gives 50% chance of basically winning any fight with a character automatically. But if MSS fails, that doesn't mean Necron Lord lost the fight. No, it just means the fight goes on normally. If Lord has around 50% chance of winning normal fight, that adds up to 75% chance of winning it with MSS. Add Ever-living and final result is that on average, Lord is pretty much guaranteed to win the fight.

tgf wrote:
A 200+ point lord 3A at WS4 does not make a CC giant and he is hella expensive.

Why do you keep lying about that Lord being 200+ points? I've already shown that Lord with that gear is only 160 points, or 175 points with MSS. And I did it before you responded to this post. And while not a "beast", Lord is comparable to equivalent point level Marine characters in CC.

I

tgf wrote:
already said it is probably a bit cheap but remember it was designed in 7th before the retardation of close combat pile ins and it was much harder to get the desired pairing in CC every time.

Codex Necrons was designed for 6e from the start. It was plainly obvious the moment 6e launched.

You forget the Resurrection Orb, which is pretty mandatory on a Lord.

 Sasori wrote:
No, people would not buy it if it was 50 points. That is far far to much.

50/50 shot to negate any character's abilities and make him hit himself? 50/50 shot to autowin a challenge? Sounds reasonable to me. I'd say at least double the current points cost to make it anywhere near balanced.

Kangodo wrote:
You forget the Resurrection Orb, which is pretty mandatory on a Lord.

Yes, the bonus to RP is too good to pass up.

They could've at the very least, give IC a reroll on MSS, just say they have strong willpower or something.

Luide wrote:

tgf wrote:

Luide wrote:

You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army.

Like I said complete butt hurt, a 50/50 prop = always win.

You delibarately seem to discount the fact that the Lord can actually fight in CC. I wonder why, is it because it undermines your position, and badly?
MSS gives 50% chance of basically winning any fight with a character automatically. But if MSS fails, that doesn't mean Necron Lord lost the fight. No, it just means the fight goes on normally. If Lord has around 50% chance of winning normal fight, that adds up to 75% chance of winning it with MSS. Add Ever-living and final result is that on average, Lord is pretty much guaranteed to win the fight.

tgf wrote:
A 200+ point lord 3A at WS4 does not make a CC giant and he is hella expensive.

Why do you keep lying about that Lord being 200+ points? I've already shown that Lord with that gear is only 160 points, or 175 points with MSS. And I did it before you responded to this post. And while not a "beast", Lord is comparable to equivalent point level Marine characters in CC.

I

tgf wrote:
already said it is probably a bit cheap but remember it was designed in 7th before the retardation of close combat pile ins and it was much harder to get the desired pairing in CC every time.

Codex Necrons was designed for 6e from the start. It was plainly obvious the moment 6e launched.

I feel sorry for you, you remind me of a guy at our club. He cries about everything. Dark Lances are no fair they make my LR suck, Orks are no fair they have base 2 attacks and then my tactical squad can't beat them, Tau are no fair they remove the cover save from my squad in the ruins, chaos are no fair axe of khorne kills all my terminators. You need to toughen up or play a different game. You probably cry when you win too about how unfair the other guys army is...the guy at our club does. He wins about 40% of the time but I think he enjoys about 1 in 10 games maybe. Lastly you seem to have what I call SMS or Space Marine Syndrome, you want space marines to live up to their fluff. News flash SM Captain is widely considered to be one of the worst HQ choices and tacmarines are good at holding objectives (and not even great at that) they are out shot or out fought by just about every other unit in the game that is not generalist. Quit QQ'ing on the interwebs kid, or read the Tau codex and join one of those QQ threads, the necron QQing is really 2012.

Sheesh... There's no need to insult!

I love how some people think MSS is slowed but still love and would gladly take puppet master.

My apologies bodazoka but might I rudely ask what you mean by slowed?

On the topic of MSS, yeah it's underpriced in my personal opinion. Actually, I would claim it is arguably too good. Considering there is an army that is forced to declare challenges, considering monsterous creatures literally will kill themselves... and you still get an ap2 S7 scythe that hits at a higher initiative than a regular marine. That's bloody great in and of itself! And really, if anyone wants to use the argument that paying 200 for a force multiplying beatstick means he should kill cheaper things, then my bloodthirster (base 260), should be able to automatically stomp your character without worries of being possessed (which is more than half the time as they only have leadership 9 now).

*My apologies for my rudeness*

 StarTrotter wrote:
My apologies bodazoka but might I rudely ask what you mean by slowed?

The Forum autocorrects the word that starts with R and used to denote mental deficiency to "slowed"

haha wow... my bad :/

Rephrase: "I love how some people think MSS is bad... but still love and would gladly take puppet master"

Kangodo wrote:Not sure about that, 50 points is quite an investment.
In my opinion the downside to MSS is the limited amount of units that can take this upgrade.

My list is already as tight as possible, I cannot spare the 3/4 Lords with MSS to put in every group.
Most of the time I'd rather have an Orb among my warriors to stop the opponent from actually getting into CC.

You say there's a limited amount of units that can take, but then go on to say you could easily put one in every squad if you weren't spending the points elsewhere.

bodazoka wrote:haha wow... my bad :/

Rephrase: "I love how some people think MSS is bad... but still love and would gladly take puppet master"

Mindshackle Scarabs - 15 points, opponent must pass a leadership test on 3d6 or is incapable of making any close combat attacks that round, wounds themself, gets attacked by the Lord, is either dead is seriosly wounded, the Necron unit is unscathed, and a 250+ pt close combat monster gets destroyed by a <100 pt Character you were taking for the resiliency and boost to RP with Res Orb more than its ability to kill a Bloodthirster.

Puppet Master - Can only be used by a psyker, have to roll for it on a table, costs a warp charge, must pass a leadership test, then opponent fails Deny the Witch, roll to hit the unit shooting, roll to hit, roll to wound, opponent rolls saves and possibly Feel No Pain or Reanimation Protocols, does not prevent the targeted unit from shooting next turn.

I fail to see how they are at all similar apart from the mind control aspect.

 gpfunk wrote:
50/50 shot to negate any character's abilities and make him hit himself? 50/50 shot to autowin a challenge? Sounds reasonable to me. I'd say at least double the current points cost to make it anywhere near balanced.

No, it's not reasonable.
50 points would make sure that nobody ever takes the upgrade.

You really don't get the downside of it, do you?
Yes, the Lord WINS the challenge!
But who cares about that? The rest of the unit still wipes out the Warriors and annihilates them with a Sweeping Advance.
Instead of wiping them out for free it now costs you one character.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You say there's a limited amount of units that can take, but then go on to say you could easily put one in every squad if you weren't spending the points elsewhere.

Yes, that makes it limited.
We have to put them on Lords and they can get quite expensive.
In most 1500-lists I take one Lord as a maximum.
So that's ONE mss in the entire army? You think you can handle that?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs - 15 points, opponent must pass a leadership test on 3d6 or is incapable of making any close combat attacks that round, wounds themself, gets attacked by the Lord, is either dead is seriosly wounded, the Necron unit is unscathed, and a 250+ pt close combat monster gets destroyed by a <100 pt Character you were taking for the resiliency and boost to RP with Res Orb more than its ability to kill a Bloodthirster.

Puppet Master - Can only be used by a psyker, have to roll for it on a table, costs a warp charge, must pass a leadership test, then opponent fails Deny the Witch, roll to hit the unit shooting, roll to hit, roll to wound, opponent rolls saves and possibly Feel No Pain or Reanimation Protocols, does not prevent the targeted unit from shooting next turn.

I fail to see how they are at all similar apart from the mind control aspect.

The cheesy aspect of taking control of an enemy model for a turn is what I was referring too in my original post.....

I don't like your comparison either btw, you have really skewed it to back up your opinion. If you take a beat stick 250+ point character against Necron's its your own fault for being MSS .... especially considering in your above scenario a unit of assault marines wipes out said Necron unit in 1 turn regardless of the 100 point Lord.

And don't get me started on a unit of terminators! they deep strike into my back line, take 20 RF shots from a unit, laugh, charge said unit, wipe it out, consolidate, take 20 RF shots from another unit, laugh, charge etc.......

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You say there's a limited amount of units that can take, but then go on to say you could easily put one in every squad if you weren't spending the points elsewhere.

Yes, that makes it limited.
We have to put them on Lords and they can get quite expensive.
In most 1500-lists I take one Lord as a maximum.
So that's ONE mss in the entire army? You think you can handle that?

Who are these people that put MSS in every squad? That is silly expensive and ultimately a really bad cron list. At 1500 points you should have 1, maybe 2 MSS depending on your build. If you are taking Lords with MSS for every squad and your opponents can't beat you, my guess is they are showing up on a short yellow bus. This discussion has gone from internet crybaby to internet fantasy.

I normally field 2 models with MSS. An Overlord and a D-Lord.

The only time i will field the "lower" lords is in bigger games.
(and i normally field at least 4 warrior squads in a game)

MSS is undercosted for what it does. That being said, only a bad player charges their pricey MC or character into a squad with MSS. Like it or not, you have to avoid that squad due to the high chance of pummeling yourself.

Wraiths are without a doubt under-costed by probably ~10 pts a model. Annihilation Barges are probably about 15 pts too cheap and Night Scythes are probably 25 pts or so too cheap. These little savings are what makes the army so brutal.

Ooeh, that would really hurt Necrons too much.

12 wraiths + 2 D-Lord
-4 Whip Coil and 1 MSS

3x 5 Warriors + Night Scythe

3x An-Barge

That list is quite competitive and comes down to 1495 points.
Your changes would make it 1735 and that's really overcosted for what it does and the chances it has in a tournament.

A full Wraith + D-Lord squad is pretty expensive tbh.

6 Wraiths
4 Whip coils
D-lord - Weave & MSS
= 410 points

 Sasori wrote:

Luide wrote:

Compare them to units that are similarly tough, like TH/SS and TWC. And then take into account how much cheaper Wraiths are and how much would marine player be willing to pay for Jump Pack equipped TH/SS termies. Personally, I'd say something they're undercosted by around 7-10 ppm. Would still be competitive at that point level, but not auto-take they're now.

I do compare them to TWC, and don't believe they are undercosted compared to them. TWC have several advantages over Wraiths, while Wraiths have a few over TWC.

First of all,
In order for TWC to be roughly equivalent to a wraith, they would need to take a storm sheild for the invulnerable save. That makes an equivalent TWC cost 80 points per model vs. the wraith's 35 points per model. Tell me what advantages a TWC has over a wraith that compensates for that price difference?

TWC = S5, T5, W2, I4, A4, 3+ Armor, Rending, Cavalry 50 points per model. Comes with BP + CCW. For 30 points more a storm shield upgrades the 3+ save to invulnerable.

Wraith = S6, T4, W2, I?, A4, 3++ Invuln, Rending Jump Infantry 35 points per model.

Also...

 Sasori wrote:

Wraiths are not immune to JOTWW.

Wraiths are Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry is immune to JotWW.

Second of all, if you were to do a similar comparison to TH/SS Terminators, you would find that the Wraiths have more wounds, a BETTER initiative, move a lot faster, and may sweeping advance. The upshot of the terminators is the thunderhammers and a 2+ armor save of course.

Are infantry immune to JoTWW? I'm pretty sure JI are just a subtype of infantry.

Under the section on Jump Units, pg47:

Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump Units and Infantry.


JoTWW hurts infantry. JI follows the rules for infantry. Ergo, JoTWW hurts JI.

 Praxiss wrote:
A full Wraith + D-Lord squad is pretty expensive tbh.
6 Wraiths
4 Whip coils
D-lord - Weave & MSS
= 410 points

Again, A full TWC squad is even more expensive.
Here's a TWC squad with the storm sheilds to make their saves comparable to the wraiths', plus a lord with only a little wargear to make him comparable the destroyer lord.

5 TWC + 5 Stormsheilds (400 points)
1 Wolf Lord + Thunderwolf, Stormshield, Wolf Claw, Runic Armor (210 points)
610 points total.

What do you have to say to that? Necrons are SUPPOSED to be bad in close combat. Space Wolves are SUPPOSED to be good at it. But here is evidence that, for this unit at least, the roles are reversed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are infantry immune to JoTWW? I'm pretty sure JI are just a subtype of infantry.
Under the section on Jump Units, pg47:
Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump Units and Infantry.
JoTWW hurts infantry. JI follows the rules for infantry. Ergo, JoTWW hurts JI.

There is a very large discussion about this on YMDC and also in the SW FAQ. Jump infantry are immune to JotWW because the JotWW power as written in the codex does not specifically say that Jump Infantry are affected.

EDIT : Actually it's not in the FAQ. But there is one on YMDC somewhere.

you kill wraiths with high volume S8 shots some armies are better than others, or just high volume of S4 shots like bolters. 6 bolter wounds is on average 1 dead wraith.

grugknuckle wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are infantry immune to JoTWW? I'm pretty sure JI are just a subtype of infantry.

Under the section on Jump Units, pg47:

Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump Units and Infantry.


JoTWW hurts infantry. JI follows the rules for infantry. Ergo, JoTWW hurts JI.

There is a very large discussion about this on YMDC and also in the SW FAQ. Jump infantry are immune to JotWW because the JotWW power as written in the codex does not specifically say that Jump Infantry are affected.

It doesn't have to. Jump Infantry are Infantry. It even says so in the BrB, as I pointed out.

To say otherwise is just silly.

tgf wrote:
Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.

Because, you know, every squad in every codex has a sergeant.

It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.

You named 2 others. What's the Tyranid one - the Tervigon? Not really wargear...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

It doesn't have to. Jump Infantry are Infantry. It even says so in the BrB, as I pointed out.
To say otherwise is just silly.

Yeah...I'm not going to argue about it in this thread. YMDC.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

It doesn't have to. Jump Infantry are Infantry. It even says so in the BrB, as I pointed out.
To say otherwise is just silly.

Yeah...I'm not going to argue about it in this thread. YMDC.

Okey doke.

I'll just do a bit of copy pasta then

Edit: Bah, can't find it. Can't be bothered.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
TWC = S5, T5, W2, I4, A4, 3+ Armor, Rending, Cavalry 50 points per model. Comes with BP + CCW. For 30 points more a storm shield upgrades the 3+ save to invulnerable. lolAcute senses.

Wraith = S6, T4, W2, I2, A4, 3++ Invuln, Rending Jump Infantry 35 points per model. Unit ignores both difficult and dangerous terrains. And to be very fair, at least half of them would be armed with whip coils, to reduce the enemy unit to I1.

Not disagreeing, just fixing.

I can see the main advantage of TWC being that they're T5, so much harder to ID, as well as taking less wounds, whereas wraiths could be IDed by anything S8+, providing they fail their saves, or the wound isn't being placed on the dlord. While wraiths' whip coil's bonus is something TWC can never match, as well as that they can just go anywhere(bar impassable? Since they auto-pass dangerous terrain test...). Movement speed-wise, they're about the same, both ignoring difficult terrains, while TWC can be "slowed down" by the fact they treat every difficult terrain as dangerous, they have the advantage of fleet during assault, and wraiths only get a fleet-like bonus if they hadn't moved 12" in the movement phase.

Personally, I think there is no way you could compare TWC with wraiths, wraiths would win everytime.

Wraiths are 45 points with the coil. Just pointing that out.

Wraiths also have 3 attacks, not 4. No idea where you are getting the 4th attack from.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
What do you have to say to that? Necrons are SUPPOSED to be bad in close combat. Space Wolves are SUPPOSED to be good at it. But here is evidence that, for this unit at least, the roles are reversed.

Necrons, as an army, are still bad in CC compared to Space Wolves.
Not just bad, terribly bad!
One unit doesn't change that =/

Ooh, let's compare more stuff!
Space Wolves are supposed to be bad in shooting and Necrons are supposed to be good.
Yet almost any SW-unit beats Scarabs and Flayed Ones in shooting!

The comparisons in this forum are getting worse every day.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wraiths are 45 points with the coil. Just pointing that out.

Wraiths also have 3 attacks, not 4. No idea where you are getting the 4th attack from.

Argh! I checked my codex for the wraithflight but forgetting to check the attacks! I failed at fixing...

Kangodo, the differences between Grugknuckle's comparison and your "mocking" comparison are:

1) It was initiated by a Necron player, Sasori, I believe, in attempt to show that a similar costed and similar purpose unit in SW is about the same as wraiths, whether he succeeded at that is, well, up for debate.

2) They're comparing 2 CC units, whereas your "mocking" comparison is comparing a shooting unit to units that can't even shoot, they are not equivalent...

Can necron players not just stay civil in a topic like this? It makes me feel bad for being one of the necrons.

Wraiths are Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry is immune to JotWW.

In 5th Edition,they were. Welcome to 6th.

It's laid out quite clearly as RAW in the BRB. You're just flat out wrong. You can choose to believe what you want, but the fact that there has been a consensus on this, in every major tournament, speaks a lot more than your ill-informed opinion.

Baronyu wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:
TWC = S5, T5, W2, I4, A4, 3+ Armor, Rending, Cavalry 50 points per model. Comes with BP + CCW. For 30 points more a storm shield upgrades the 3+ save to invulnerable. lolAcute senses.

Wraith = S6, T4, W2, I2, A4, 3++ Invuln, Rending Jump Infantry 35 points per model. Unit ignores both difficult and dangerous terrains. And to be very fair, at least half of them would be armed with whip coils, to reduce the enemy unit to I1.

Not disagreeing, just fixing.

I can see the main advantage of TWC being that they're T5, so much harder to ID, as well as taking less wounds, whereas wraiths could be IDed by anything S8+, providing they fail their saves, or the wound isn't being placed on the dlord. While wraiths' whip coil's bonus is something TWC can never match, as well as that they can just go anywhere(bar impassable? Since they auto-pass dangerous terrain test...). Movement speed-wise, they're about the same, both ignoring difficult terrains, while TWC can be "slowed down" by the fact they treat every difficult terrain as dangerous, they have the advantage of fleet during assault, and wraiths only get a fleet-like bonus if they hadn't moved 12" in the movement phase.

Personally, I think there is no way you could compare TWC with wraiths, wraiths would win everytime.

Thunderwolf Cavalary have the advantage of +2 more base attacks, T5, Counterattack, I4, grenades, and Always getting Hammer of Wrath on the charge. You pay the Extra points for a unit that is much more effective in combat, Can charge into terrain without penalty and on the charge are much more dangerous, than Wraiths are. Thunderwolf Cav is also more durable to most volume of fire, compared to Wraiths, who are more durable against higher AP weapons. Wraiths are also much more vulnerable to Instant Death.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses, Wraiths are only better than TWC in some situations. TWC are better than Wraiths in some situations. Neither are flat out better than the other, unlike what Gregknuckle is trying to say.

It doesn't really matter who compared them, it still doesn't work like that.
It's not quite a "similar purpose" unit.
Wraith-purpose is to kill the stuff that survives the shooting and comes too close, or to kill the stuff that cannot be shot down.

I'm really getting tired of those short-sighted arguments.
"Necrons are shooty so they can't have any good CC-units!"
"MSS-rules are overpowered, so Necrons can't have it!"

Despite all the "overpowered" CC-rules, we are still an army that dies to CC.
You can't and you shouldn't look at units/wargear without context.

 Sasori wrote:
Thunderwolf Cavalary have the advantage of +2 more base attacks, T5, Counterattack, I4, grenades, and Always getting Hammer of Wrath on the charge. You pay the Extra points for a unit that is much more effective in combat, Can charge into terrain without penalty and on the charge are much more dangerous, than Wraiths are. Thunderwolf Cav is also more durable to most volume of fire, compared to Wraiths, who are more durable against higher AP weapons. Wraiths are also much more vulnerable to Instant Death.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses, Wraiths are only better than TWC in some situations. TWC are better than Wraiths in some situations. Neither are flat out better than the other, unlike what Gregknuckle is trying to say.

Ah, good point, now I see what you mean. Though, it may just be the after-effect of playing DE, I just feel loss of initiative is way worse than what TWC can bring, but I totally see what you mean now, and I don't disagree.

And well, Kangodo, yes, I agree that it is rather tiresome to see people still holding onto the style of the old necron dex, which I believe was much more shooty focused. Necron is a primarily shooty army but with good assault unit this edition, not the short range Tau-alike any more! They really need to get their view of necrons updated. But still, it wouldn't hurt to try and see it from the other side:

Wraiths are amazingly priced for what they can do, it completely solved the low initiative problem of necrons by making everyone lower initiative. The amount of high strength rending attacks and the speed they can move at is also amazing. Their resilience is also something worth noting, the popular setup with D-lord not only up their offensiveness with PE, it also gives them that res orb EL 2+ T6 HQ to absorb some wounds, making them even more durable. Lastly, there's the whipcoils debuff.

And MSS, well, imagine if your high-priced HQ just murdered himself with very little effort from your opponent(he only spent some points, a measly 15~ points at that!), how would you feel? It's quite a bit different from puppet master or JotWW or other deadly things, puppet master or JotWW for example, are both psychic power, they need to do a psychic test, we can deny the witch, then more dice have to be rolled before they can hurt, MSS on the other hand is a relatively-cheap upgrade that only requires 3 dice to be rolled, and hurts are served, the only counter is to stay the hell away from them, but it's often harder depending on the list of both sides(I can't imagine it being easy to run away from d-lord wraiths). Personally, I just think it'd be fairer if MSS doesn't have such a high trigger rate, 50%~ is really too good for that point cost, and I'm not being glass half-emptied! To top it off, units that can bring MSS aren't bad at CC at all, I've thrown my warscythe overlord alone into an enemy unit and wipe them out in a single turn! If character with IC rules are allowed to re-roll MSS, it may reduce the crying just a bit.

And then we have the amazingly cheap and effective anni-barges, flyers, an entire unit of PE shooters(pea shooters, heh), etc... As well as all the favourable updates from GW, it really is hard to blame anyone to see us as a tad overpowered now, I'd say. But as tgf said pages ago, the problem is really that every codices should be updated to be Necrons-good, rather than Necrons having to be nerfed.

Eh, I don't consider a res orb to be that useful in a wraith squad. You are spending 30 points to give a single model a slightly better chance at surviving. Not really worth it imo.

A sempiternal weave carrying D. Lord is still very good at absorbing those krak missile.

As odd as it sounds, I never had an MC/IC commit suicide. The MSS usually just buys me some time.

Kangodo wrote:
It doesn't really matter who compared them, it still doesn't work like that.
It's not quite a "similar purpose" unit.
Wraith-purpose is to kill the stuff that survives the shooting and comes too close, or to kill the stuff that cannot be shot down.

That's a rather narrow view of them that wastes much of their mobility, they make a great aggressive shock assault unit that can open up a path for the rest of your army. Lots of S6 attacks on fast moving W2 3+invul units can put a lot of hurt on stuff and can usually get stuck in by turn 2.

Despite all the "overpowered" CC-rules, we are still an army that dies to CC.

I've seen Nid and Berzerker armies also be defeated through CC too, that doesn't mean they're bad at it. CC is a good avenue to defeat Necron troops usually, but Necrons can still run fearsomely effective CC lists of their own.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
As odd as it sounds, I never had an MC/IC commit suicide. The MSS usually just buys me some time.

I lose MCs all the time, especially between the Warscythe and MSS.
And remember, it's your choice to trigger Force, not his. So if a Dreadknight fails MSS it's one wound to remove him (and a psychic test) if he didn't spend his warp charge already.

Oh yeah, the IC usually dies to the scythe, but never to the MSS. The MSS does buy the lord the time to use his scythe . Force Weapon wielders tend to pass their LD tests on me. It's kind of annoying.

Kangodo wrote:
I'm really getting tired of those short-sighted arguments.
"Necrons are shooty so they can't have any good CC-units!"
"MSS-rules are overpowered, so Necrons can't have it!"

Despite all the "overpowered" CC-rules, we are still an army that dies to CC.
You can't and you shouldn't look at units/wargear without context.

Getting a bit confused here. Earlier you said one of the Necron's only weaknesses is CC. Add in the best commander wargear in the game for CC and a great dedicated melee squad (wraiths) and suddenly it looks like Necrons don't have any weaknesses, don't it?

Here's some context. One of the most common ways I see of running a lord is by himself in a CCB. He's a single model unit that can make sweep attacks and can disembark if he ever wants to assault. Now you can't "sweep" his unit because he's all there is and you have to deal with the fact that if you do try to shoot him down or beat him up with a generic squad that he will (generally) have a 4+ to magically reappear. He hits WAY above his points level.

If you made that wargear more expensive there would be less complaints. As I said earlier...maybe you missed it...at least double the current cost would be a start. If you're really only using it as a CC deterrent then you should only be taking it on strategic lords that will be hanging with your warrior blobs right? 30 points is much more reasonable.

You're pretty much the only one in the thread who hasn't admitted that it's at least undercosted for what it does.

@gpfunk.
I'd have to disagree.
The gear and Wraiths make it less of a weakness.
It's like I said before:
A blob of Crons will be wiped away in CC.
A blob of Crons with a geared Lord will be wiped away in CC, but it will make the enemy bleed for it.

And to be honest, I have never seen an Overlord in a CCB.
That's except for the one time I tried it and it got focussed to death in no time.
Don't forget that a CCB with Lord (+MSS, PS, WS) is the same price as a Land Raider!

A D-Lord with MSS and SW is also 160 points.
They increased the D-Lord's MSS-cost because he is more likely to get into melee.

You're pretty much the only one in the thread who hasn't admitted that it's at least undercosted for what it does.

1. That's not an argument.
2. No, I'm not the only one.

Well, as you can see from the debate, this is quite subjective.

I still stand by -
* Pay attention to the mission
* kill entire units to prevent WBB
* leverage long range shooting advantages in full army support.
* units you can't kill, tie up.

yes, they have a lot of powerful units, but honestly its that they are very forgiving to mistakes.
If you make fewer mistakes, this takes away some of this advantage.

best of luck!

Kangodo wrote:

A blob of Crons will be wiped away in CC.
A blob of Crons with a geared Lord will be wiped away in CC, but it will make the enemy bleed for it.

1. That's not an argument.
2. No, I'm not the only one.

You're looking at a unit out of context now aren't you? You say without a shadow of a doubt that blobs of warriors will always be wiped in CC. Not true in the slightest. Take a generic CSM assault unit. How about a similar blob of CSM? None of their attacks ignore your armor which means you'll save half of the wounds dealt and because of your toughness it will be harder to wound you. If you have a Lord in the unit then you are guaranteed a kill on the Sarge, and you have a high leadership to test against if you lose combat. Then you have a 4+ to get back up because if you aren't taking your res orb then you're doing it wrong, right?

Then...and check this out...next turn you're likely to win combat against them because the Lord doesn't have to worry about challenging anymore and can go to town on that paper thin 3+ armor.

And you're right, it's not an argument. It's something called an observation. You and a few hold outs. It's undercosted. Period.

You seem to think that everyone saying Necrons are unilaterally imbalanced annoy you because it's not true. Others might find your view that they are unilaterally balanced equally annoying because it's not true. I'm simply saying that it's an undercosted piece of wargear, you've offered no argument against that other than "Necrons are going to lose CC anyway" which is rather vague and in various cases, untrue. Especially with nerf to assualt in 6th and the strength of necron overwatch (not as good as tau mind you, but quite powerful).

Will they able to deal as many wounds as they take? With the CSM's T4, 3+ save and their 3 attacks each (I think, I'm not sure about the new ones), I don't think so.

There's a reason why necrons hate sweep.

I have to wonder what sort of Necron players you folks are running into that put MSS Lords in every unit of Warriors.

They look great on paper, but the points and opportunity costs often don't add up. A S5/T5 Marine Sergeant with I2 for 50 points. Not only that, but attaching that Lord often means you aren't attaching a Cryptek (unless somebody wants to shell out a ton more for a 2nd Overlord). All that for a 50/50 chance to screw with a single model? A randomly selected model, mind you (since Necrons rarely charge, you put in the MSS effect before challenging). To top it off, Warriors are godawful in assault, even against basic Space Marines. I2 and a 4+ save is a recipe for disaster when it comes to close combat.

Maybe the Overlord is giving you a hard time. The 205 point foot model (Scythe, MSS, Weave, Orb, Phase Shifter). Seriously? Once again, charge them, don't put your IC in BtB with his boss man, have some schmuck take the MSS test, run them down in assault and spread 3" out to prevent the Overlord from reanimating.

Command Barge? The 80 point open-topped transport that takes him away from units to hide in. He's fearsome in assault until you realize his mighty steed is open-topped AV11 on the rear. Whoops. There's a reason folks don't take them any more.

Destroyer Lord? Sure, he's a beat stick. Shame about the lack of Royal Court and invulnerable save.

I'm sorry you can't run your 300 point worldkiller into a Necron army and steamroll them, really I am. Necrons don't really have dedicated, all comers combat units. They have anti-combat units that excel at shutting down enemy CC units. That's Wraiths and MSS dudes. They'll tear up solo DPs, Hive Tyrants and the like, but get punked by cultists and Boyz. Scarabs shred vehicles and can tie things down indefinitely, but aren't winning a lot of combats unless you have a huge swarm. Spyders are very durable for 50 points, but are limited by their movement and WS2/A2. Lychguard, Praetorians, Flayed Ones and C'tan may as well not exist.

Hell, if there's anything to really get bent out of shape over it has to be Harbingers of the Storm. 25 points for a 4 shot Haywire gun that can hop out of a Night Scythe moving 24"? Even I feel dirty using them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Will they able to deal as many wounds as they take? With the CSM's T4, 3+ save and their 3 attacks each (I think, I'm not sure about the new ones), I don't think so.
There's a reason why necrons hate sweep.

I'm not sure about exact math i'd have to take some time to work it out. But I am absolutely sure they would be able to deal enough wounds to stay locked or at least to have a decent chance to pass leadership, especially with the lord around. I'm just thinking about it in basic terms of number of attacks.

40 shots on the way in means about 7 will hit, 2/3rds will wound, so about 4. Two thirds of those saved, means about 2 dead marines on the way in. Then they have to make whatever charge they need. Champion gets challenged out so that'll be 51 attacks on the charge. WS4 vs WS4 means half hit, so 25-ish. S4 vs T4 means wounding on 4+ so a third successfully wound. 12ish wounds dealt, half of which are saved by 4+ armor so you've got roughly 6 dead warriors on the charge.

Necrons swing back. 14 attacks at WS4, half hit, 9 total. S4 vs T4, means half wound. 4-5ish. 2/3rds are saved. Roughly two dead marines. The Necron Lord attacks the Champion. If the champion is naked then he's toast. He'll get 4 attacks on the charge, roughly 1 will hit, and roughly none will wound. That's if he gets to attack as he'll fail his LD9 check against the scarabs about 2/3rds of the time. If he has a maul he'll get 1 wound through, and if he has an axe he will be killed before he strikes. They lose by three and then have a 60% chance to pass leadership on a 7. Which is theoretically the most common result from 2d6.

This is hardly the route that most people seem to think will happen. The numbers are fairly ambiguous and could easily roll either way. Necrons don't auto-fold in combat.

If they pass then 50% of their casualties rise from the grave and 3 warriors come back. Next round looks incredibly bleak for the CSM.

This is assuming that the CSM have been untouched as they've moved upfield. Assuming they didn't fail any LD9 tests from shooting casualties, and assuming they even make the charge. Lots of assumptions.

If we're shying away from vacuums then you can assume that those CSM would take casualties trying to move upfield, and would have to get within 7" of the necrons to reliably pull of a charge. Very tall order, especially with how strong necron's mid range shooting is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
They have anti-combat units that excel at shutting down enemy CC units. That's Wraiths and MSS dudes. They'll tear up solo DPs, Hive Tyrants and the like, but get punked by cultists and Boyz.

They'll certainly not be punked by cultists. Not even close. They have a 6+ armor which is negated by most of the guns in the necron arsenal, then they have to make it all the way upfield and make it into combat. If your cultists magically make it to them without taking a single casualty, then they have a solid shot.

 gpfunk wrote:
They'll certainly not be punked by cultists. Not even close. They have a 6+ armor which is negated by most of the guns in the necron arsenal, then they have to make it all the way upfield and make it into combat. If your cultists magically make it to them without taking a single casualty, then they have a solid shot.

Cultists charging Wraiths? Hell no, this is Wraiths on the attack. Lots of bodies and lots of attacks are what do Wraiths in, which cultists/boyz/guardsmen have in spades.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Hell, if there's anything to really get bent out of shape over it has to be Harbingers of the Storm. 25 points for a 4 shot Haywire gun that can hop out of a Night Scythe moving 24"? Even I feel dirty using them.

Now why'd you have to bring those up!? lol

They are perhaps my favorite upgrade right now.

5 Warriors, Harbinger of the storm, Night Scythe - this is the best vehicle deletion unit in the game. I average about 4 hull points every time the unit shoots.

 Dand218 wrote:


35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

Dark Eldar Codex: 35pts gets you a S5 T5 infantry unit that has a 6+ armour save, FnP and 4 attacks on the charge. It has 3 wounds. It also kills itself and stuff around it if it fails a leadership test (on LD 3)... Just a bit of comparison for you..

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Cultists charging Wraiths? Hell no, this is Wraiths on the attack. Lots of bodies and lots of attacks are what do Wraiths in, which cultists/boyz/guardsmen have in spades.

Consider that Wraiths have incredible mobility as compared to cultists and can choose their battles accordingly. The wraiths have the advantage in that they can move where the cultists are not far easier than the other way around. You leave the cultists to the warriors that just shred them with their basic weapons.

 gpfunk wrote:
Consider that Wraiths have incredible mobility as compared to cultists and can choose their battles accordingly. The wraiths have the advantage in that they can move where the cultists are not far easier than the other way around. You leave the cultists to the warriors that just shred them with their basic weapons.

We're talking actual game situations, not hypotheticals run in a vacuum to support your argument. Wraiths hopping around is all well and good, but when you have to dislodge something on an objective it doesn't matter. Warriors are just shooting bolters and the vast majority of the time those units will be in some sort of cover. You're not doing appreciable damage unless the Warriors are in rapid fire range, then they're getting charged and run down by Cultists/Boyz/whatever.

 Chumbalaya wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
Consider that Wraiths have incredible mobility as compared to cultists and can choose their battles accordingly. The wraiths have the advantage in that they can move where the cultists are not far easier than the other way around. You leave the cultists to the warriors that just shred them with their basic weapons.

We're talking actual game situations, not hypotheticals run in a vacuum to support your argument. Wraiths hopping around is all well and good, but when you have to dislodge something on an objective it doesn't matter. Warriors are just shooting bolters and the vast majority of the time those units will be in some sort of cover. You're not doing appreciable damage unless the Warriors are in rapid fire range, then they're getting charged and run down by Cultists/Boyz/whatever.

Sounds like you're running your unit in a vacuum. The vacuum is that it's a one objective game and that is the only objective I can take to win.

20 shots, 2/3rds hit, 13 hits. 3+ to wound, 8.58 wounds. If you in heavy cover (ADL or Ruins) you save half of those so 4-5 dead cultists. If you're in any other cover you have 6.58 dead cultists. If you have 35 cultists then you've lost a third of them in two rounds of shooting meaning that your combat effectiveness has been reduced significantly. That's one unit of warriors. If I really need that objective...I mean if I really need it then I'll put more than one unit into shooting it.

You're saying, in a vacuum where a max wraith squad and a maxed CCW cultists squad get in a fight, the cultists will most likely win. In a battlefield situation, where there are multiple objectives or I DON'T need to charge your cultists, they're far less effective at doing anything. Especially since they won't be able to offer up any firepower beyond 12".

I figure I will write a guide for dealing with MSS since it does seem to be at the heart of the butt hurt.

1. Don't be stupid.
2. Refer to rule 1.

Long version

Looks like you might get charged next turn
-surround character with peons for no base to base, if sarge in squad put sarge up front. If no sarge in squad move character toward rear so they will not be eligible for a challenge but will get to fight on pile in move.

You are going to charge.
-peon make contact with MSS
-you choose MSS trigger
-then issue challenge


See its really all about not being stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:


35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

Dark Eldar Codex: 35pts gets you a S5 T5 infantry unit that has a 6+ armour save, FnP and 4 attacks on the charge. It has 3 wounds. It also kills itself and stuff around it if it fails a leadership test (on LD 3)... Just a bit of comparison for you..

Lone cryptek of dispair kills entire squad no FNP, no Sv, all ID. Other than that grotesques aren't bad when paired with hami

tgf wrote:
I figure I will write a guide for dealing with MSS since it does seem to be at the heart of the butt hurt.

1. Don't be stupid.
2. Refer to rule 1.

What an amazing guide! I know! I'll write a guide on winning.

1. Don't lose.
2. Refer to rule 1.

You should write full tactica.

tgf wrote:
I figure I will write a guide for dealing with MSS since it does seem to be at the heart of the butt hurt.

1. Don't be stupid.
2. Refer to rule 1.

Cute.

Looks like you might get charged next turn
-surround character with peons for no base to base, if sarge in squad put sarge up front. If no sarge in squad move character toward rear so they will not be eligible for a challenge but will get to fight on pile in move.

Yeah, this works really well with MCs. Oh, wait - there's only 1 MC in the game that this would work with, the Riptide. Nevermind.

You are going to charge.
-peon make contact with MSS
-you choose MSS trigger
-then issue challenge

You keep assuming that every assault unit has a "peon". That's so false it hurts.


See its really all about not being stupid.

Edited by Manchu

tgf wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:


35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

Dark Eldar Codex: 35pts gets you a S5 T5 infantry unit that has a 6+ armour save, FnP and 4 attacks on the charge. It has 3 wounds. It also kills itself and stuff around it if it fails a leadership test (on LD 3)... Just a bit of comparison for you..

Lone cryptek of dispair kills entire squad no FNP, no Sv, all ID. Other than that grotesques aren't bad when paired with hami

Yeah, but if your haemy gets challenged he will probably die (due to his low initiative and not so goodness in combat), and when he dies, your Grotesques just run off the board. Trust me, I played a game today against CSMs, had Rakarth and 3 Grotesques on one side of the board, a Maulerfiend got into combat with them in one turn. Rakarth died. My Grotesques got run down. It lost me the game.. Not very good, I think I'll just take another Ravager next time, they seem to do far batter x)

 PrinceRaven wrote:
That's all very nice for people with Assault Marines and Terminators. Also, how is it my fault for taking a beatstick? Do you think I list tailor? Because if I did and I decided to take my regular list with 6 Monstrous Creatures knowing I was up against someone spamming MSS you'd be right, but I don't tailor my lists, I play TAC lists and just show up and play,

7 out of 15 codices can take assault's and terminator's, not including variant's of space marine chapters. Orc's have there own CC variant which is arguably better and Tyranids have genestealers...

Whose fault would it be if it wasn't yours? you are the one who decided to bring a knife to a gun fight!

If you play a TAC list you wont have a problem with MSS, its only cheese MC lists that would. If you have a cheese MC list then you deserve to be MSS!!!

Yeah, cause stealers are soooo good in the current meta.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, cause stealers are soooo good in the current meta.

I am un familiar with the current nids deck, tell me is there a fast, relatively cheap (compared to assault marines) assault unit that can take out Necron warrior units (the unit that would have a Lord with MSS as efficiently as the marine?

Only with the support of a couple hundred point unit.
And the shots on the way in hurt. A lot.

Use gargoyles or hormagaunts then. They do just fine.

bodazoka wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
That's all very nice for people with Assault Marines and Terminators. Also, how is it my fault for taking a beatstick? Do you think I list tailor? Because if I did and I decided to take my regular list with 6 Monstrous Creatures knowing I was up against someone spamming MSS you'd be right, but I don't tailor my lists, I play TAC lists and just show up and play,

7 out of 15 codices can take assault's and terminator's, not including variant's of space marine chapters. Orc's have there own CC variant which is arguably better and Tyranids have genestealers...

Whose fault would it be if it wasn't yours? you are the one who decided to bring a knife to a gun fight!

If you play a TAC list you wont have a problem with MSS, its only cheese MC lists that would. If you have a cheese MC list then you deserve to be MSS!!!

Except apart from the Ymgarl variant Genestealers suck, for the same cost as a tactical arine you get a 6+ save unit that trades any shooting options for being good at assault, which was nerfed heavily in 6th while rapid fire got huge buffs. As far as cheesy MC lists, are you referring to triple Tervigon lists? Because they can do fine against MSS, they have Termagants, buttloads of them. I don't run cheesy lists, I only have 1 Tervigon which is more objective holding than anything, and therein lies my problem, I'd need cheese to beat this sort of cheese, but I'm lactose intolerant.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Use gargoyles or hormagaunts then. They do just fine.

Hormagaunts are bad. Gargoyles, however are pretty good thanks to their extra movement and cheaper upgrades, but synergy is key for Tyranids and they don't fit into a deep striking army (even though they can deepstrike, their massive footprint makes it such a horrible idea on anything but the most sparse of boards).

bodazoka wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
That's all very nice for people with Assault Marines and Terminators. Also, how is it my fault for taking a beatstick? Do you think I list tailor? Because if I did and I decided to take my regular list with 6 Monstrous Creatures knowing I was up against someone spamming MSS you'd be right, but I don't tailor my lists, I play TAC lists and just show up and play,

7 out of 15 codices can take assault's and terminator's, not including variant's of space marine chapters. Orc's have there own CC variant which is arguably better and Tyranids have genestealers...

Whose fault would it be if it wasn't yours? you are the one who decided to bring a knife to a gun fight!

If you play a TAC list you wont have a problem with MSS, its only cheese MC lists that would. If you have a cheese MC list then you deserve to be MSS!!!

My apologies but that isn't necessarily true. What about Tyranids? How many armies that you have seen that are monsterous creature heavy? Sure it is spammed, but that's one of the few competitive Nid lists. Heck, one of the most efficient Chaos Daemon lists requires using several Monsterous Creatures (one tends to be a magnet for shots). And wait, you can declare a challenge, and my leadership 9 Monsterous creature will more than 50% of the time beat himself with his own stick (Lord of Change) then you get two hits that wound me on 2+. One shouldn't be punished for bringing their beatstick unit nor should a Chaos Space Marines then be forced to challenge the enemy (and accept challenges) with a guy that will often rip them apart (even if more expensive).

*I need to quit talking so late ha ha*

 StarTrotter wrote:
My apologies but that isn't necessarily true. What about Tyranids? How many armies that you have seen that are monsterous creature heavy? Sure it is spammed, but that's one of the few competitive Nid lists. Heck, one of the most efficient Chaos Daemon lists requires using several Monsterous Creatures (one tends to be a magnet for shots). And wait, you can declare a challenge, and my leadership 9 Monsterous creature will more than 50% of the time beat himself with his own stick (Lord of Change) then you get two hits that wound me on 2+. One shouldn't be punished for bringing their beatstick unit nor should a Chaos Space Marines then be forced to challenge the enemy (and accept challenges) with a guy that will often rip them apart (even if more expensive).

*I need to quit talking so late ha ha*

Sorry I don't mean to suggest someone is "punished" for anything at all. I'm just trying to say that its not the best list to bring against a Necron army and its a poor example to use to suggest MSS is broken its just a bad match up is all.

Here's the thing, take a squad of Warriors/Immortals with a Necron Lord, pit them against a Trygon/Bloodthirster/Mephiston//Abaddon, who do you think is more likely to win that combat? Throw MSS in there, now who's got the edge? Nothing that can so drastically alter a matchup should be that cheap.

Here's the thing: Don't send in Mephiston against a group of 20 Necron Warriors with a Lord.
You are actually complaining that 21 models don't get wiped away that easily by one model?

Now put the same group of 20 warriors against 5 Assault Terminators.
And then the same group WITH a MSS-Lord against the same 5 Terminators.

Would you be okay with it if all Lord came with MSS standard and if they upped the base-cost by 15?

As has been stated already - if you're playing against a 'cron player who puts a weave, scythe, MSS, res orb lord in every squad then you will be playing a against a small army.

That Lord by itself is going to be 105 points....that only has 2 attacks if it gets charged.

Kangodo wrote:
Would you be okay with it if all Lord came with MSS standard and if they upped the base-cost by 15?

No - that's the point. It's. Too. Cheap.

When it's literally a no brainer upgrade (as in, you'd be dumb to drop it before dropping a model from a squad) there's a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Praxiss wrote:
That Lord by itself is going to be 105 points....that only has 2 attacks if it gets charged.

2+D3. And those 2 go before many AP2/1 attacks (and are AP1), wound against most things on a 2+...
And the D3 are auto-hits. With the AP of the attacking model.

Sure, the normal reaction is to send in the chaff to eat the MSS. That's the smart way to play.
What are Warriors, Immortals really good at? Oh. Killing chaff.

2+ Possible D3, that may or may not be useless. You have to randomize the target before challenges irrc, so you may not affect that powerfist after all. The MSS only affects things in b2b contact as well.

rigeld2 wrote:
No - that's the point. It's. Too. Cheap.

It's exactly the point!
Are Necrons overpowered in melee?
Do they win melee battles easily?
Hell, aside from some Wraiths, do they win any melee battles at all?

When it's literally a no brainer upgrade (as in, you'd be dumb to drop it before dropping a model from a squad) there's a problem.

Sounds to me like you don't play Necrons.

I think MSS does to much for it's points but it isn't a no-brainer. I've used it recently though due to the rise in MCs (especially Nids who I feel Crons struggle vs).

Kangodo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No - that's the point. It's. Too. Cheap.

It's exactly the point!
Are Necrons overpowered in melee?
Do they win melee battles easily?
Hell, aside from some Wraiths, do they win any melee battles at all?

Yes. They do. Quite often in fact. Go ahead and keep pretending that they always lose though.

When it's literally a no brainer upgrade (as in, you'd be dumb to drop it before dropping a model from a squad) there's a problem.

Sounds to me like you don't play Necrons.

So you'd actually rather have a single Warrior than MSS?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
2+ Possible D3, that may or may not be useless. You have to randomize the target before challenges irrc, so you may not affect that powerfist after all. The MSS only affects things in b2b contact as well.

Both happen at the same time, so the person who has the currnt turn decides

If it is the necron player they do challenge -> MSS, as you are then gteed to hit the person you are challenging

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. They do. Quite often in fact. Go ahead and keep pretending that they always lose though.

What are you sending at those Warrior-blobs; single Ork Boyz?
If a melee-squad gets in touch with a warrior-blob, the blob is dead.

Adding MSS only changes one thing: The opponent will lose his character while wiping out your blob.

So you'd actually rather have a single Warrior than MSS?

No.
I'd rather have 5 warriors instead of the Lord with MSS.
I'd rather have two extra Wraith-models or an An-Barge which is almost the same as a Lord.

But especially for you I have been scouting through some army-lists.
Most lists only use 1 or 2 Over/Destroyer-Lords with MSS.
And the first list that actually uses a couple of Lords with MSS has a first post telling him that he invested too much in lords.

Like I said before: MSS would be undercosted if it could be given to random models.
But only Lords can take them and you don't want to field many Lords as a Necron-player.

Kangodo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. They do. Quite often in fact. Go ahead and keep pretending that they always lose though.

What are you sending at those Warrior-blobs; single Ork Boyz?
If a melee-squad gets in touch with a warrior-blob, the blob is dead.

Termagants with Tervigon support (not in combat so just AG/TS).

Adding MSS only changes one thing: The opponent will lose his character while wiping out your blob.

It can (and has) turn a "wipe out the blob" into a "win combat, kill character and route unit".

So you'd actually rather have a single Warrior than MSS?

No.
I'd rather have 5 warriors instead of the Lord with MSS.
I'd rather have two extra Wraith-models or an An-Barge which is almost the same as a Lord.

But especially for you I have been scouting through some army-lists.
Most lists only use 1 or 2 Over/Destroyer-Lords with MSS.
And the first list that actually uses a couple of Lords with MSS has a first post telling him that he invested too much in lords.

Like I said before: MSS would be undercosted if it could be given to random models.
But only Lords can take them and you don't want to field many Lords as a Necron-player.

And on models that can take them they're undercosted.

So after reading all 6 pages of comments I have come to the conclusion that most of the complaints/comparisons are coming mostly from players who have armies that are in dire need of a codex update. The Necron Dex, and every one since then has had a pretty good advantage over all others. There has been such a radical change in some of the core rules with 6th (overwatch and cover being 2) that older codexs are hampering their armies.

That being said, do I believe MSS, Wraiths, etc.... are overpowered/under priced? No. Without those I'm almost sure that my loss count would skyrocket! Don't get me wrong, I have played without, but my wins were not very high at all. I was getting swept in CC almost everytime. I'd be an idiot not to use the tools given. I've fought against Necrons with CSM and DA. It was difficult before their codex updates, but a some strategy helped me pull it off quite often. I just expected my challenger to take those units/abilities and played accordingly.

Some people on here seem to be just complaining because they can't win and probably play the same army list every time. Others on this thread do have some valid points but are coming from armies that, again, are in dire need of 6th ed rules. If GW was a lot faster with updating everybody and not taking years; I'm sure a lot of the complaints would be trivial.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

I think it's a little dismissive to just say "when your codex is updated, you'll be just as good", look at the newer codices, how many complaints have you seen about CSM, daemons, DA, or Tau? There has been 4 codices since necrons, and still necrons is 1 of the more talked about codices in term of overpowerness, the other one being GK... So if anything, the pattern should indicate that the problem lies in... Ward's writing.

I do wonder if the 4 new codices have as much trouble against crons as pre-necron update codices though.

 GrimScorpio wrote:
So after reading all 6 pages of comments I have come to the conclusion that most of the complaints/comparisons are coming mostly from players who have armies that are in dire need of a codex update. The Necron Dex, and every one since then has had a pretty good advantage over all others. There has been such a radical change in some of the core rules with 6th (overwatch and cover being 2) that older codexs are hampering their armies.

That being said, do I believe MSS, Wraiths, etc.... are overpowered/under priced? No. Without those I'm almost sure that my loss count would skyrocket! Don't get me wrong, I have played without, but my wins were not very high at all. I was getting swept in CC almost everytime. I'd be an idiot not to use the tools given. I've fought against Necrons with CSM and DA. It was difficult before their codex updates, but a some strategy helped me pull it off quite often. I just expected my challenger to take those units/abilities and played accordingly.

Some people on here seem to be just complaining because they can't win and probably play the same army list every time. Others on this thread do have some valid points but are coming from armies that, again, are in dire need of 6th ed rules. If GW was a lot faster with updating everybody and not taking years; I'm sure a lot of the complaints would be trivial.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

I agree that the Codexes designed during 6th Edition are well balanced against each other and could fight on a level that would be VERY fun. However some of the 5th Edition Codexes that were made with an idea of 6th Edition(or maybe by accident in relation to 6th Edition) are the ones that give problems to the game, in my honest opinion.

Adepticon shows how nasty some of those 5th Edition Codexes are when the great internal balance of 6th Edition Codexes are taken as comparison. Aside form the Helldrake's amazing ability for its points value, no other unit or combination of units in a 6th Edition Codex stands out as much as a some units and combinations present in Grey Knights and Necrons.

Crons just do so many things so well in the environment of 6th. Glancing can destroy a vehicle handily? Win for Necrons. Troops able to steal objectives reliably from a flyer with strong shooting potential? Win for Necrons. The points cost of units like A-Barge? Win for Necrons.

MSS is not necessarily unbalanced on its own, but with its relatively low points cost....taken with the rest of the amazing discounts found in Codex: Necrons...just kinda adds to the general dislike of MSS.

 GrimScorpio wrote:
So after reading all 6 pages of comments I have come to the conclusion that most of the complaints/comparisons are coming mostly from players who have armies that are in dire need of a codex update. The Necron Dex, and every one since then has had a pretty good advantage over all others. There has been such a radical change in some of the core rules with 6th (overwatch and cover being 2) that older codexs are hampering their armies.

That being said, do I believe MSS, Wraiths, etc.... are overpowered/under priced? No. Without those I'm almost sure that my loss count would skyrocket! Don't get me wrong, I have played without, but my wins were not very high at all. I was getting swept in CC almost everytime. I'd be an idiot not to use the tools given. I've fought against Necrons with CSM and DA. It was difficult before their codex updates, but a some strategy helped me pull it off quite often. I just expected my challenger to take those units/abilities and played accordingly.

Some people on here seem to be just complaining because they can't win and probably play the same army list every time. Others on this thread do have some valid points but are coming from armies that, again, are in dire need of 6th ed rules. If GW was a lot faster with updating everybody and not taking years; I'm sure a lot of the complaints would be trivial.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Personally my largest gripes are just behind that of Nids, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Space Marines. Having known Nid players, you really need monsterous creatures and I'm not quite sure how they could really fix this. Their synapse thing really makes a difference and the sorts. The only way I can think of that could make up for this problem is if they entirely change Nids (and from observations of Necrons, changing too much leads to some love it or hate it). Chaos daemons, I prefer the gods of Tzeentch and Khorne which happen to have the worst of the four god troop choices. So instead I build my list to be top heavy to make up for this glaring flaw. Even when I eventually get all of the four gods, monsterous creatures tend to be extremely popular (there is something glorious about having a Lord of Bloodthirster Keeper of Unclean Ones) leading your army to battle. Not to mention it helps you get to the enemy faster. And... one can say to ignore the lord but besides that I don't have many options. I cannot shoot him down easily (our most common shooting units have to pass perils, deny the witch, and then might give the enemy feel no pain) and charging into close combat against Necrons can be extremely painful (especially since even bloodletters are now only toughness 3). And then declaring challenges begins to glare. Heralds are great, and in some cases almost manditory, but with them brings a character that can be challenges.... and these guys only have a leadership of 8. Which means most of the time they will fail. Well okay it really does impede the troops but he wasn't that expensive. But what could best counter them? Hordes? Difficulty with hords is that although they make up for their enhanced fragility as well as (coughallofthoseunfairrules) Grey Knights however then you give up the take all comers which leans towards a more top heavy army. Finally, against Chaos Space Marines, mindshackle scarabs make a laughing stock of their "lovely" special rule that forces them to declare and accept challenges. Sending another warrior instead of Abby works for one turn, after that, whelp here comes Abby. A unit that costs night on 300 points whom has a 50% chance of killing himself.

(I don't look at others that use Wraiths and MSS with indignation though. Honestly, for such a cheap price, I would likely hop on it as well. Not to mention there is something funny about a metallic scarab latching to my head and making me beat myself to death with my own sword/arm)

Baronyu wrote:
I think it's a little dismissive to just say "when your codex is updated, you'll be just as good", look at the newer codices, how many complaints have you seen about CSM, daemons, DA, or Tau? There has been 4 codices since necrons, and still necrons is 1 of the more talked about codices in term of overpowerness, the other one being GK... So if anything, the pattern should indicate that the problem lies in... Ward's writing.

I do wonder if the 4 new codices have as much trouble against crons as pre-necron update codices though.

I'd say CSM are better against the necrons than before, what with the Heldrake, Chaos Lord/Sorc improvements and the Cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Having known Nid players, you really need monsterous creatures and I'm not quite sure how they could really fix this. Their synapse thing really makes a difference and the sorts. The only way I can think of that could make up for this problem is if they entirely change Nids (and from observations of Necrons, changing too much leads to some love it or hate it).

While I agree with "too much change" causing hatred, the idea of changingg nids from an MC army into a bug-spam horde is actually fluffier than MC spam. The whole idea of the nids was that the apocalypse had come in the form of a swarm of giant mutant locusts.

The change in Newcrons completely rewrote the fluff. While I understand why it was done, it was done in a rageworthy way, and changed thefeel of the entire race. they went from "Terminator" to "Walk Like an Egyptian" in theme.
Bringing nids to swarm mode actually fits with how the nids are supposed to feel.

[On a side note, changing nids into a horde would fit GW's theme of spammier codicies, and making more sales]

Horde was a good build in 5th. It's just bad in 6th.

Tbh My opinion on necrons is that they can be balanced but thay are always hard as hell to beat since there one major weakness imo is there int value... but then they have something to cover that... the dreaded MSS...

Why is this so bad? If you throw a hoard of something at a blob of warriors with a lord with MSS there not gonna do so well as your Sargent will throw a high Str weapon at your own squad or kill himself and that kinda really grinds my gears as that means you don't have a chance in hell to get that squad down as much as you want, yes you will throw a lot down and you will cause casualties but its standard for a lord to take a res orb meaning those troops get back up on a 4+ meaning that those massive casualty's you thought you were gonna make, well at least one third of the squad will come back, and now you have lost melee simply because your Sargent died from MSS and then that lord had a Warscythe plus the many attacks from the Warrior blob.

so you cant get them in combat? why not shoot them? ok then the casualty's you made from plasma/melta/bolter/etc just got back up on a 4+, yeah its not great when that happens.

Also that CC Deathstar unit that you knew was going to do well because of what it brings is now rendered useless all because of that lord with MSS since your deathstar is usually in small numbers therefore if you dont go into a change with the lord, you will be clobbering your own squad, and its not too great top see that either...

Honestly I don't have a problem with the Necron Codex, I think everything is quite good in it, but I don't think Ward was thinking when he put in MSS that's the only thing I deem OP, because it makes up for a major weakness in the army, and while I believe weaknesses should be covered they shouldn't be covered at such a scale where it will render some units on the opponents army useless as I believe them too be, this wasn't intended to be a rant at Necrons, as I have said that its a good codex, just I feel that one piece of wargear (that can be spammed like no tomorrow on lords) is the only thing in 40k that REALLY grinds my gears.

*note: I play Orks and CSM and so I know both ends of the spectrum (from small elite squads of troops with good guns to hoards of boys with a power klaw nob getting stuck into combat) when going though against this threat on the battlefield.

On a side note I would say to improve the MSS (for next edition...yes I know thats far away) is to make me take a normal LD test. If I fail I suffer -D3 to my WS/BS that would make it seem more balanced IMO, either that or make it a one off upgrade to an overlord (like the black mace, and daemon weapons for example) and 45pts should be good enough price for it imo.

I'd say if you managed to get a good size assault-build horde(is there non-assault ones?) into combat with even a full 20 warriors blob with a MSS OL, you'd win combat... at least for turn one, if you can deal enough wounds to reduce necrons' Ld so they fail the morale test, you can sweep them away rather easily due to their I2-ness, and they won't get to RP at all if you sweep. Problem is, of course, how are you gonna get a good size horde up against necrons' shooting, which they are pretty good at, top it with overwatch, and their good Ld meaning they might not even fail the morale, then come next turn with your sarge dead, half of the warriors back up, your horde having taken a few hits, the crons might just be able to turn the table on you!

So, dice luck is everything!

I really don't think crons are as bad in assault as people make them out to be. Sure, a warriors blob, or immortal, or any of crons' shooting unit(the large majority of the codex) would stand no chance, on their own, against any assault-dedicated unit out there, but that's the same fate for any army out there, longfangs don't stand a chance against any assault either, neither are tac squad, even the hybrid grey hunters won't do so well against a good assault unit(I hope). But being WS4 S4 T4 Ld10 with a good save generally, as well as RP, crons are doing better than, say.. Tau or other T3 poor save shooting units out there.