1. Tervigon... come on. 210 points standard, and will mess up any other troops in the game.
2. GH, still the best possible Tac equivalent
3. Necron Warriors: Cheap, RP, Gauss and decently tough, plus access to Night Scythe
4. IG blob, lots of bodies and good shooting, plus hidden Heavy weapons.
5. Strike Squad: A bit pricey, but good dakka and nice CC bonuses, but die too easy to be top tier Troops. Very good though.
6. Zombies: I hate the Typhus tax, but big blobs of these are a PITA big time. Tough to kill and fearless, ugh
7. Kroot Sniper Blob: In the context of the army they're great bubble wrap and decent shooters.
8. Pink Horrors: Still the best Daemon Troop in my mind, can go to ground behind Aegis for REROLLABLE 2++. ow, plus decent shooting even in small units.
9. SMTac squad: Having Combat Tactics means they are useful for a smart general.
10. BA Assault Squad: Not quite as good, jump packs are meh and can't assault from transports at all.
11. CSM squad: Not great due to LD issues, and get pricey fast. Access to autocannon makes me want these to be higher.
12. DE Warriors: Still annoying as heck with all splinter weapons and their fast transports.
13. Ork Boys: Im biased cause Nids ruin them, but PK is subject to challenges, and lack of Psychic Defense really hurts. Every time I play them, Iron Arm or Enfeeble and a Tervigon into the squad, they'll never escape.
14. Sisters of Battle: Never played SoB, but they don't look great. Then again, I've seen other players use them, so maybe?
15. Eldar Guardians: Low BS, Low range guns, weak guns, Low LD, Low Toughness, Low save, and way too expensive.
I'd switch CSM with C:SM Tactical squads. ATSKNF is so much better than paying a lot for a piece of wargear that will die and you lose fearless.
C:SM tacs just arent that flexible in my book. You basically must run 10 to get the free weapon, must run them at 10 to get a heavy weapon. cannot get a dual special.
I rank DA tacticals much higher because tehy have that flexibility(stubborn not withstanding)
CSM dont have ATSKNF, a huge hit. But they are cheap and very flexible.
I see your point though. CSM might be too high, but I will put them down with C:SM tacs, not moving C:SM tacs up.
Two questions:
What makes BA-tacticals so much better than other tactical squads? I play BA, but don't know much about other SM-armies.
Shouldn't Necron Immortals be in that list?
For one point more than a Tactical SM they have str5, ap4 weapons or str5 tesla.
Same armour-save, better transport and RP.
Kangodo wrote: Two questions:
What makes BA-tacticals so much better than other tactical squads? I play BA, but don't know much about other SM-armies.
Shouldn't Necron Immortals be in that list?
For one point more than a Tactical SM they have str5, ap4 weapons or str5 tesla.
Same armour-save, better transport and RP.
Although other people have ignored OP, I said one unit per army. For me, Necron Warriors are better than Immortals for the point cost.
jifel wrote: 1. Tervigon... come on. 210 points standard, and will mess up any other troops in the game. 2. GH, still the best possible Tac equivalent 3. Necron Warriors: Cheap, RP, Gauss and decently tough, plus access to Night Scythe 4. IG blob, lots of bodies and good shooting, plus hidden Heavy weapons. 5. Strike Squad: A bit pricey, but good dakka and nice CC bonuses, but die too easy to be top tier Troops. Very good though. 6. Zombies: I hate the Typhus tax, but big blobs of these are a PITA big time. Tough to kill and fearless, ugh 7. Kroot Sniper Blob: In the context of the army they're great bubble wrap and decent shooters. 8. Pink Horrors: Still the best Daemon Troop in my mind, can go to ground behind Aegis for REROLLABLE 2++. ow, plus decent shooting even in small units. 9. SMTac squad: Having Combat Tactics means they are useful for a smart general. 10. BA Assault Squad: Not quite as good, jump packs are meh and can't assault from transports at all. 11. CSM squad: Not great due to LD issues, and get pricey fast. Access to autocannon makes me want these to be higher. 12. DE Warriors: Still annoying as heck with all splinter weapons and their fast transports. 13. Ork Boys: Im biased cause Nids ruin them, but PK is subject to challenges, and lack of Psychic Defense really hurts. Every time I play them, Iron Arm or Enfeeble and a Tervigon into the squad, they'll never escape. 14. Sisters of Battle: Never played SoB, but they don't look great. Then again, I've seen other players use them, so maybe? 15. Eldar Guardians: Low BS, Low range guns, weak guns, Low LD, Low Toughness, Low save, and way too expensive.
Sorta along the lines of what I thought, but i want to expound on some choices that i hold differently:
C:SM tacs should be slightly higher: Free anti-horde weapons, and the no sweeping ability and being immune to fear is pretty big imo. Also their weapon upgrades are pretty cheap. Almost as good DA tacs, but C:SM tacs they can't get a SW in 5 man squads, and are more expensive.
Zombies should be lower: Basically switch guns for FNP & fearless along with not overwatch and not +1A on the charge. Considering they only have a 6+ save, any blob killing weaponry will rip these guys a new one.
IG blob should be slightly lower: BS3 is not very good, combined with you needing the bodies to do anything with your shooting.
jifel wrote: Sisters of Battle: Never played SoB, but they don't look great. Then again, I've seen other players use them, so maybe?
It's the only troop choice in the SoBWD Codex so anyone playing sisters will have them. They're solid if you know what to do with them, good armor and LD, good shooting at short ranges. Really requires a transport to get into the best position and avoid getting shot up though.
I'll only rate troops I've used Eldar and Dark Eldar. I factor them in a vaccuum except for their transports.
1. Eldar Guardian Jetbikes. 3+, jinky, 48" total potential movement. If you go 2nd you WILL get Linebreaker and deny as amnay objectives = to the amount of squads you have! Gold.
2. Dark Eldar Warriors. Lots of shots that just wound you on 4s, so there! Dismounted they die too quick but, they can take dedicated Raiders, greatly increasing their killing ability and slightly increasing their longevity. Silver.
3. Eldar Dire Avengers. Lots of shots on guys with 4+ armor. A Shimmershield Exarch can make that squad surprisingly good in close combat (for their price). Bronze.
4. Dark Eldar Wyches. Haywyches; put 5 in a Venom, charge'em at a tank and blow it up. That's about it.
5. Eldar Pathfinders. Anything that voids cover or can get to assault quickly nullifies these extreme over(point)costed dudes. Even Space Marine snipers aren't that good and they're 6 points less with better armor.
6. Eldar Wraithguard. Too expensive, in points and money. The squad is at least 350 pts. for 12" 1 shot weapons. Oh and you can only take 5 in the overpriced Serpent negating their troop ability. All they got going for them is innate fearless. The only reason I don't sell them to try and get back some of my money is the new codex is rumored to come out in the next 2 or so months.
7. Eldar Guardians. Trash. They are 8pt. Guardsmen; with less weapon options. They can take their heavy weapon on an overpriced Serpent and, they are I4, so yay??
NOTE: I have not fielded Dark Eldar Wracks or Dark Eldar Hellions as troops.
Also are we only counting "natural" troop entries? Or do Paladins (DraigoWing), Wolf Guard (LoganWing), DA Terminators (BelialWing), Henchmen (CoteazWing) also count?
RancidHate wrote: I'll only rate troops I've used Eldar and Dark Eldar. I factor them in a vaccuum except for their transports.
1. Eldar Guardian Jetbikes. 3+, jinky, 48" total potential movement. If you go 2nd you WILL get Linebreaker and deny as amnay objectives = to the amount of squads you have! Gold.
2. Dark Eldar Warriors. Lots of shots that just wound you on 4s, so there! Dismounted they die too quick but, they can take dedicated Raiders, greatly increasing their killing ability and slightly increasing their longevity. Silver.
3. Eldar Dire Avengers. Lots of shots on guys with 4+ armor. A Shimmershield Exarch can make that squad surprisingly good in close combat (for their price). Bronze.
4. Dark Eldar Wyches. Haywyches; put 5 in a Venom, charge'em at a tank and blow it up. That's about it.
5. Eldar Pathfinders. Anything that voids cover or can get to assault quickly nullifies these extreme over(point)costed dudes. Even Space Marine snipers aren't that good and they're 6 points less with better armor.
6. Eldar Wraithguard. Too expensive, in points and money. The squad is at least 350 pts. for 12" 1 shot weapons. Oh and you can only take 5 in the overpriced Serpent negating their troop ability. All they got going for them is innate fearless. The only reason I don't sell them to try and get back some of my money is the new codex is rumored to come out in the next 2 or so months.
7. Eldar Guardians. Trash. They are 8pt. Guardsmen; with less weapon options. They can take their heavy weapon on an overpriced Serpent and, they are I4, so yay??
NOTE: I have not fielded Dark Eldar Wracks or Dark Eldar Hellions as troops.
Also are we only counting "natural" troop entries? Or do Paladins (DraigoWing), Wolf Guard (LoganWing), DA Terminators (BelialWing), Henchmen (CoteazWing) also count?
Is it me, or all of your choices are eldar-related? Seriously, just cuz some of them got bieks doesn't mean they can beat GHs or tervies w/ shootygaunts
RancidHate wrote: I'll only rate troops I've used Eldar and Dark Eldar. I factor them in a vaccuum except for their transports.
*snip*
Is it me, or all of your choices are eldar-related? Seriously, just cuz some of them got bieks doesn't mean they can beat GHs or tervies w/ shootygaunts
I am very fond of noise marines as a troop choice. Only bad part to me is they are a little pricey but if you build them for different rolls they are quite effective.
RancidHate wrote: I'll only rate troops I've used Eldar and Dark Eldar. I factor them in a vaccuum except for their transports.
*snip*
Is it me, or all of your choices are eldar-related? Seriously, just cuz some of them got bieks doesn't mean they can beat GHs or tervies w/ shootygaunts
I'm surprised that Ork Boys, the apparantly super-efficient infantry choice in the best infantry army in the game, are so low down many of the rankings.
Anyone seen 30 Shoota Boys, 3 Big Shootas, PKBP Nob w/ Big Shoota, with attached Painboss and KFF Mek? That 5+ FNP makes them goddamn tough as nails
Dakkamite wrote: I'm surprised that Ork Boys, the apparantly super-efficient infantry choice in the best infantry army in the game, are so low down many of the rankings.
Anyone seen 30 Shoota Boys, 3 Big Shootas, PKBP Nob w/ Big Shoota, with attached Painboss and KFF Mek? That 5+ FNP makes them goddamn tough as nails
Yeah but now we're talking troops with attached characters. That's opening a whole other level of discussion probably better for another thread.
For troops I love my CSM, I can take up to 20, make them fearless (for the same price as if there were 5, or 10) take a whole bunch of weapon options and even add toughness, initiative, attacks or save depending on my mood. Not the best in game but certainly a better choice than a standard C:SMTac.
These rankings swing massively depending on whether or not you include transports and FOC modifiers. Necron Warriors are fairly average scoring units, but imo jump into the top 3 if you include the Night Scythe - it makes them incredibly durable, has very solid damage output and it still probably the cheapest option in the top 10. I would definitely rate the Tervigon as the best troop unit in the game if you allow FOC modifiers, at ~200pts its around the same cost as most loaded out troop units, but spawns more scoring units and with psychic powers can do basically anything. Imo all the factors listed are valid, but by far the most important role for a troop unit is to be alive at the end of the game and grab objectives.
@RancidHate. Eldar Jetbikes are good, but you can't rely on them as your only scoring units as they are way to fragile. Yes they can grab objectives from anywhere late, but even going second you can get screwed over by random game length. If you allow buff units/support then Wraithguard should definitely be second on that list, with Fortune and the Baron for Hit and Run they are an absolute nightmare to deal with. All the rest of the Eldar and Dark Eldar scoring options are pretty much trash though, they all die far too easily (including Pathfinders) and buying them transports doesn't help because you have to disembark to do anything and said transports are either massively overpriced or made of paper. I find Guardians far more helpful than Avengers since they can bring a heavy weapon to chip away at things from long range, and despite them being overpriced I can still get more bodies around my Farseer/Eldrad, which is all I care about.
My list:
1. Tervigon
2. Necron Warriors in Nightscythe
3. Guard Blob (again its not great without support units, as soon is a Marine character is in there they become pretty crazy though)
4. Ork Boyz
5=Grey Hunters
5=Grey Knight Strikes
7. IG Vets
8. Grey Knight Terminators
9. Wraithguard (with support)
10. Eldar Jetbikes
The ability of Heldrakes to single handedly win games against MEQ infantry means only Strikes and Grey Hunters make the top 10, normal Tacticals don't bring enough to balance out their extreme vulnerablity to the Helturkey. Otherwise the focus is on hordes (Cultists don't make the cut since are terrible by themselves since they aren't Fearless, and the characters you attach to give them Fearless has to challenge) or seriously tough units (Tervigon, Terminators).
Kangodo wrote: Two questions:
What makes BA-tacticals so much better than other tactical squads? I play BA, but don't know much about other SM-armies.
Shouldn't Necron Immortals be in that list?
For one point more than a Tactical SM they have str5, ap4 weapons or str5 tesla.
Same armour-save, better transport and RP.
Although other people have ignored OP, I said one unit per army. For me, Necron Warriors are better than Immortals for the point cost.
you should do the math then.
170 points of warriors wil have less wounds than 170 points of immortals (by .2 or 3) against meqs they also have a better armor save and ap 4
I also agree about GH being the pinnacle and the third or so post about the CSM needing icon for fearless. It makes no sence that you should have to pay what is it, 25 points for something that all other MEQ has stock for the same or less points.
3. Guard Blob (again its not great without support units, as soon is a Marine character is in there they become pretty crazy though)
Are you referring to the 50 Guardsmen and 4++ save thing?
Because that gak is insane. I hate to think that there would be even more powerful choices.
That is probably one of the strongest builds, but wasn't actually what I was referring to. Because of the way ATSKNF works as soon as there is a single Marine character in a blob of 50 Guardsmen it automatically rallies and can never be swept (unless you kill the character somehow). So even a basic Librarian in a blob makes them significantly stronger, and there are plenty of other combos around (Khan giving them Furious Charge and Hit and Run for example).
@ Peregrine. That's pretty much backwards lol, a vehicle will always be a terrible troop unit because it can never score.
Really the Tactical Squads for all the Marine flavours can be combined together as a single ranking as there is very little variation between them. BA get a 1/6 chance of Fearless (which is arguably worse since you can't go to ground, which is important for a scoring unit), Dark Angels get Flakk (until everyone else gets updated) and the nilla Marine ones can't take any options as a 5 man but get a bit more flexibility with Chapter Tactics/Combat Tactics.
One per army, and I included force org changes because that's what I see.
Coteaz Henchmen
Ork Boyz
IG Platoon
Grey Hunters
Tervigon
Noise Marines
DA Tactical
Plaguebearers
Necron Warriors
DE Warriors
BA tacticals
Eldar Jetbikes
Fire Warriors
SM Tactical
phempchildrenbob wrote: Umm did you guys forget plaguemarines? Def top 5. T5 comes with extra ccw, defensive grenades, poison weapons and fnp.
I think a lot of people aren't counting them as troops because they need a Nurgle Lord to get them out of elites.
Personally, I'm more afraid of min Noise Marines with blastmasters, but I think it's very close. The OP said one from each army, so I couldn't add in the plague marines also.
Just the ability to take Blastmasters puts noise marines in the top 3 for me. My top 5 would be:
1)GKSS (force weapons and deepstrike area denial. Load them with halberds and they would take down a Tevigon with little problems. If we are counting FOC modifiers then no.1 would be Paladins hands down.)
2)Noise marines. 4 5man squads with blast masters will upset anyone but a all terminator force
3)Firewarriors (on mass with an Ethereal + Pathfinders. Supporting Overwatch can be insane and really puts a spanner in assaulting enemy plans)
4)Tevigons (MC that can spawn more troops, nuff said)
5)Necron Warriors + Nightscyth
170 points of warriors wil have less wounds than 170 points of immortals (by .2 or 3) against meqs they also have a better armor save and ap 4
Yes, but the reason Necron troops are good are because of Night Scythes. And 5 warriors in a Night Scythe is the best Necron troop choice and is better than any corresponding Immortal unit.
Pony_law wrote: I'm surprised no one is mentioning Plaguebearers. They are cheap, have an Invnerable save, easily create 2++ cover without sacrificing anything.
Also with their poison attacks they can put wounds on anything that gets into contact with them. Pretty good objective scores.
I had PBs are 9th overall in OP. Sounds about right to me for something with no range.
Best thing about a platoon is Sabre Gun Platforms. They are a troop, are Twin linked, have interceptor, skyfire and scout, are T7 vs ranged attacks and cheep.
The platoon also comes with a Blob that is part of the same Slot in the FOC. Not to mention all the other bits the rest of the platoon can get.
kronk wrote: Ork Boys are still a Power Klaw Delivery System, and thus, the best troop unit in the game!
Oh, you mean the Power Klaw Delivery System which no longer works, because most things can simply Challenge the Nob to either 1) Kill the Nob outright before he attacks or 2) Prevent the Nob from doing any damage.
Orks took a nose-dive with 6th Edition and Challenge rules. They're still good... but not THAT good anymore.
You need to position the nob so he is out of challenge range on the turn you charge. Then he can move up and make his attacks at I1 turn 2 he might get challanged though. I tend to run my units either with an IC to challange with or with a Squad of Bikes to get 2 characters into combat at the same time. The Nob Leader in the normal bike squad is pretty good in a challange with a better amour save, toughness and hammer of wrath he does alright.
Sinji wrote: You need to position the nob so he is out of challenge range on the turn you charge. Then he can move up and make his attacks at I1 turn 2 he might get challanged though. I tend to run my units either with an IC to challange with or with a Squad of Bikes to get 2 characters into combat at the same time. The Nob Leader in the normal bike squad is pretty good in a challange with a better amour save, toughness and hammer of wrath he does alright.
That's one way of getting around the problem if circumstances favor you. Personally I resent the fact that 6th Edition has made it such that I have to play my Orks to NOT charge into combat, but rather sit back and let the enemy come to me, with like you suggest, the Nob 4 or 5 inches back in the squad. Then I rely on Overwatch shots, and hope the Nob is still far enough away from the action he can't be challenged the first round. None of that type of play is very "Orky" and for me at least, it takes part of the FUN away from playing my army.
Sitting back and Overwatching doesn't help you much as Orks when you're going up against a gun-line that is NEVER going to charge you though. And whether or not your Nob will be Challenged out of the combat is mostly left up to the luck of the dice you roll on your charge distance.
For me, the best solution I've been able to do is to put a Nob with a Big Choppa in Boyz squads that have a Big Mek or a Warboss in them, and give the Power Klaw to the Warboss / Big Mek. When you are inevitably challenged, the Nob can decline the challenge and slink away, leaving your Big Mek or Warboss free to deliver some punching power. Of course this means you can only do this on two Boyz squads in your entire army since it involves using an IC.
You can't position characters so that they can avoid challenges. Not without completely breaking the entire challenge system so that no one could ever challenge.
And why on earth are people saying blobs are good? They have very little survivability unless they're going to ground behind an aegis, and they have basically no mobility. Or force concentration. Even if you do something silly like throw a space marine character in there you're spending hundreds and hundreds of points on basically nothing but a single scoring unit.
And it's strange because blobs aren't even the best troops choice IN THEIR CODEX, much less the entire game.
Mechvets come with more killing power per point than infantry platoons. With the changes to vehicle mobility, they can be a fair bit better. They have way better force concentration. They're immune to small arms fire while they're in the can. The overwatch yo-yo makes you all but immune to assault if you don't overextend yourself.
And if all that weren't enough, you can then add to it a special character that lets them outflank, and you can add doctrines which allow you to, among other things, throw around a demo charge and have everybody in the squad get a meltabomb for 1 pt. per model.
There's nothing you can't do with mechvets nowadays apart from close combat, but that's not something they have to worry too much about (and can take a powerfist if they are). Meanwhile, guard blobs aren't good for much more than dying on objectives on your side of the table.
As for what I think the best troops in the whole game are, I'd definitely give a nod to the tervigon. Also a squad of GKT's with Thawn.That pedro sternguard, and nob bikers.
Ailaros wrote: You can't position characters so that they can avoid challenges. Not without completely breaking the entire challenge system so that no one could ever challenge.
You can actually - if you follow the rules.
And why on earth are people saying blobs are good? They have very little survivability unless they're going to ground behind an aegis, and they have basically no mobility. Or force concentration. Even if you do something silly like throw a space marine character in there you're spending hundreds and hundreds of points on basically nothing but a single scoring unit.
Hundreds of points on a single scoring unit that isn't going anywhere and is pretty much impossible to shift with CC.
They're great as allies.
As for what I think the best troops in the whole game are, I'd definitely give a nod to the tervigon. Also a squad of GKT's with Thawn.That pedro sternguard, and nob bikers.
Amusing that all of those are "hundreds of points" as well :-)
Also -Pedro doesn't make Sternguard troops. He just makes them Scoring.
rigeld2 wrote:You can actually - if you follow the rules.
Your interpretation of the rules invalidates the entire challenge system. The only way to follow the rules, by your interpretation, is to pretend that they don't exist.
rigeld2 wrote:Hundreds of points on a single scoring unit that isn't going anywhere and is pretty much impossible to shift with CC.
... but are extremely shiftable with shooting. And they don't do much else. And they cost a LOT.
If all you wanted was a scoring unit to hold the backfield and do nothing else, then you'd do much, much better by dropping that blob in favor of conscripts with send in the next wave.
Sigh. You do realize you're the only person who agrees with your interpretation, right?
... but are extremely shiftable with shooting. And they don't do much else. And they cost a LOT.
Err, lol? Since when is a giant horde of 5-point models with a 2+ cover save "extremely shiftable with shooting"? Outside of Tau and a small number of IG units removing a blob squad from an objective means putting a huge amount of firepower into it, firepower that isn't going to your other units and isn't even guaranteed to get the job done.
If all you wanted was a scoring unit to hold the backfield and do nothing else, then you'd do much, much better by dropping that blob in favor of conscripts with send in the next wave.
Only if you pretend that morale (and things that can force morale checks no matter how many models you lose) doesn't exist. However, in the normal game of 40k, where morale exists, I'd rather have the unit with a 97% chance (or better) to pass a morale check than the one with a 27% chance.
If you add in an Meq psyker with the 4++ invo power or a DA Character that can give the 4++ invo they become hard to move even with Tau or Barrage weapons.
rigeld2 wrote:You can actually - if you follow the rules.
Your interpretation of the rules invalidates the entire challenge system. The only way to follow the rules, by your interpretation, is to pretend that they don't exist.
Yeah, no.
rigeld2 wrote:Hundreds of points on a single scoring unit that isn't going anywhere and is pretty much impossible to shift with CC.
... but are extremely shiftable with shooting. And they don't do much else. And they cost a LOT.
30+ models with a solid LD, Stubborn, and ATSKNF is extremely shiftable with shooting?
I'll have to tell me opponents that. Thanks for the heads up! Because I've found it extremely difficult to shift them with shooting.
If all you wanted was a scoring unit to hold the backfield and do nothing else, then you'd do much, much better by dropping that blob in favor of conscripts with send in the next wave.
Which are far, FAR easier to rout off the field which could mean you lose the game. That's a good plan.
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRBpg 64.
thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules
dmthomas7 wrote: "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRBpg 64.
thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules
I don't want to open up the whole Challenge debate can of worms, but your quote specifically mentions issuing, not issuing AND accepting challenges.
So a character that isn't engaged cannot issue challenges. Right.
But if that character was the initial charger, and makes it into base (or 'engagement') at the start of the combat, & issues a challenge to the nob, even if the nob is right at the back of his unit he has to either accept or decline the challenge. He can't avoid it simply by not being engaged, because the rule make no mention of the challengee being prohibited from responding to the challenge through lack of engagement. In fact, don't you just swap the challengee for a model that is engaged by the challenger if he isn't engaged when the challenge is issued?
In short the nob cannot avoid challenges through placement. I think. I dont have BRB to hand right now.
dmthomas7 wrote: "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRBpg 64.
thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules
I don't want to open up the whole Challenge debate can of worms, but your quote specifically mentions issuing, not issuing AND accepting challenges.
So a character that isn't engaged cannot issue challenges. Right.
But if that character was the initial charger, and makes it into base (or 'engagement') at the start of the combat, & issues a challenge to the nob, even if the nob is right at the back of his unit he has to either accept or decline the challenge. He can't avoid it simply by not being engaged, because the rule make no mention of the challengee being prohibited from responding to the challenge through lack of engagement. In fact, don't you just swap the challengee for a model that is engaged by the challenger if he isn't engaged when the challenge is issued?
In short the nob cannot avoid challenges through placement. I think. I dont have BRB to hand right now.
Sounds like a lot of penis measuring and not a lot of fighting.
Why doesn't some one make a thread that pits the troop choices against each other at a maximum points cap (exactly like what JY2 is doing atm) and we REALLY see who is the best troop choice overall.
dmthomas7 wrote: "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRBpg 64.
thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules
I don't want to open up the whole Challenge debate can of worms, but your quote specifically mentions issuing, not issuing AND accepting challenges.
So a character that isn't engaged cannot issue challenges. Right.
But if that character was the initial charger, and makes it into base (or 'engagement') at the start of the combat, & issues a challenge to the nob, even if the nob is right at the back of his unit he has to either accept or decline the challenge. He can't avoid it simply by not being engaged, because the rule make no mention of the challengee being prohibited from responding to the challenge through lack of engagement. In fact, don't you just swap the challengee for a model that is engaged by the challenger if he isn't engaged when the challenge is issued?
In short the nob cannot avoid challenges through placement. I think. I dont have BRB to hand right now.
No you don't. The linked thread has nothing to do with the actual structural problems in the challenge system. A model doesn't become engaged until its initiative step, and challenges happen before all initiative steps. Therefore no models are engaged when it's time to challenge, therefore nobody can ever issue or accept a challenge. Find a thread that addresses this problem, and you'll find something actually useful on the matter.
On an on-topic note, I forgot to add in send in the next wave conscripts. They're a scoring unit that when you shoot at them, they pop back up to full strength, and get to teleport anywhere in your deployment zone.
Eldar Jetbikes...
3+ armour, 5+ jink, 12 inch move +36 inch turbo boost
In terms of actually getting to objectives anywhere on the board at a moment's notice, Eldar Jetbikes are excellent. Then you've got the Jink Save, and the 3+ armour save to protect from incoming fire, and potentially re-rolling leadership from an Embolden Warlock.
The best part of the squad is that their mobility is not contingent on a transport.
They aren't great general combat units, but they really do win games. An excellent unit which does everything you want from a troop- get objectives.
Ailaros wrote: No you don't. The linked thread has nothing to do with the actual structural problems in the challenge system. A model doesn't become engaged until its initiative step, and challenges happen before all initiative steps. Therefore no models are engaged when it's time to challenge, therefore nobody can ever issue or accept a challenge. Find a thread that addresses this problem, and you'll find something actually useful on the matter.
And, again, you are the only person who agrees with you AND your interpretation is blatantly against how any sane person can see that GW will rule it if/when they give an official FAQ for it. Since nobody is ever going to agree with you to play it that way just stop wasting everyone's time arguing about it.
On an on-topic note, I forgot to add in send in the next wave conscripts. They're a scoring unit that when you shoot at them, they pop back up to full strength, and get to teleport anywhere in your deployment zone.
Don't forget that:
1) If you remove them you have to wait a full turn with them off the table and not on an objective. Since they're not an offensive threat at all it's unlikely that they'll be taking any meaningful damage until late in the game when removing them to respawn probably means giving up their objective and having them come back too late.
2) SITNW is not cheap. You're paying the equivalent of 20 more conscripts and/or an entire infantry squad with heavy and special weapon, on top of the cost of Chenkov. You have to respawn the conscripts multiple times to get it to pay off compared to just having more troops, and that's not going to happen all that often (see previous comment about zero offensive threat and not respawning until late in the game).
3) It's unclear whether or not SITNW gives you a respawn if the unit is wiped out entirely (since the UNIT is not removed from play to meet the condition on SITNW), or if you have to voluntarily remove it from play to get the respawn. If it's the former then conscripts are awful, your opponent can kill the whole unit at once and make your 75+ points a complete waste.
How can Necron Immortals not be higher in the list, if not completely forgotten ?
They have MEQ stats, apart from lacking ATSKNF and Initiative:2. For an opponent they are extraordinary hard to deal with : 3+ / 5++ thanks to reanimation protocols, boostables from krypteks or lords, and on top of that, they have the very best base gun in the game. Gauss rifles at STR 5 AP4 wreaks havoc on any infantry (especially non-MEQ) or any vehicle. They are not particularly expensive for all that goodness.
Ravajaxe wrote: How can Necron Immortals not be higher in the list, if not completely forgotten ?
They have MEQ stats, apart from lacking ATSKNF and Initiative:2. For an opponent they are extraordinary hard to deal with : 3+ / 5++ thanks to reanimation protocols, boostables from krypteks or lords, and on top of that, they have the very best base gun in the game. Gauss rifles at STR 5 AP4 wreaks havoc on any infantry (especially non-MEQ) or any vehicle. They are not particularly expensive for all that goodness.
Maybe im misreading or dont know the rules fully for necrons, but I thought gauss rifles were str 4 ap 5 with gauss and tesla was str 5 ap - with the tesla rule. It seems like youre combining the two guns.
Edit: nevermind, just found out immortals have str 5 gauss guns. Did not know that
Ailaros wrote: Oh, yeah. And they can take nightscythes as transports as well.
But, as you've said many times before, flyers arrive late, leave early, never get to claim or contest objective, and are just plain worse than bringing ground units and winning the objective game. So why should the ability to take a Night Scythe (which, according to you, is a bad unit) be considered a good thing?
Or are you going to finally admit that your anti-flyer argument is just a dishonest attempt to get people to stop playing IG flyerspam?
For troops I love my CSM, I can take up to 20, make them fearless (for the same price as if there were 5, or 10) take a whole bunch of weapon options and even add toughness, initiative, attacks or save depending on my mood. Not the best in game but certainly a better choice than a standard C:SMTac.
Not to mention, if you do add those little extras, you gain access to Feel No Pain or Rerolling charges and Furious Charge or Soul Blaze bolt weapons or Causing Fear as well.
I am a CSM player and I just think not having ATSKNF and combat squad for being 1pt cheaper is not justifiable. I have to pay for an Icon of Vengeance to give them fearless which is half as good as ATSKNF. Sure I can take 20 csm, but I have no vehicles to transport them. If I had some form of combat squad, I would take 20 csm, split them into 2 groups of 10 and put them in rhinos. Even if I take 20 csm, I can only take 1 heavy and 1 spec or 2 special weapons. So what you cant take double special weapons? When you have 2 tac squads with a heavy and spec on each and you combat squad them then you still have 2 heavy and 2 special weapons. The major benefit is that you can now shoot at 4 different targets from having 4 squads.
The previous CSM had 1 more LD, came with ccw, did not have to take a serg.
Now, cultist vs guardsmen. Guardsman>Cultist even if the cultist are cheaper. Guardsman have carapace armor, get las gun and pistol. Can take melta, plasma, missles, hb, autocannons. And they can be divided into platoons. I wish cultist can be taken in groups of 40 and then be split into 2 squads of 20 at least.
So will there be another thread about the best unlocked troops choices?
If Plague Marines were in this poll, where would they place?
If Plague Marines were in a separate poll among unlocked troops then what would their ranking be?
spacewolf407 wrote: Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.
Cheap and efficient, two special weapons in a 10-man squad, pistol + CCW + counter-attack so that your shooting unit is still reasonable effective against everything but dedicated assault units.
No, I just know that after playing foot guard for a few dozen games in 6th edition that I regularly lost all, or nearly all of my infantry, and that was with 100+ models, which rather confirms what was immediately obvious when I read the changes 6th ed made to by unit cover and wound allocation.
Come up against a few proper anti-horde weapons, and guard infantry just disintegrate. Spending hundreds and hundreds of points on them doesn't seriously change this fact.
With the release of IA:12, DKoK Grenadiers are worth a spot on this list finally. WS4 Troops choice Stormtroopers that ignore 25% casualty morale tests and only cost 120pts? They're sweet (though lacking in options).
spacewolf407 wrote: Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.
They get a CCW and Counterattack, along with (if they choose to buy one) heavily discounted sergeant equivalents with likewise discounted wargear and cost less per model than TAC equivalents and equivalently equipped CSM units? They're great. Can match equivalents for shooting and outfight them in any situation, and are cheaper.
spacewolf407 wrote: Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.
Run your Grey Hunters as Vanilla TACs sometime, you'll see.
Ten GHs under standard can take a charge from Wraiths and win (assuming no DLord), with no disadvantage to their shooting when compared to a TAC squad (in fact, I'd argue that GH shooting is better for a Troops unit, no snap firing heavy). It's ridiculous how good Grey Hunters are, good shooting, good assault, great counter assault, and scoring? I think there are better Troop choices, but they take advantage of FOC shifts, or ICs...GHs can dominate a game running by themselves.
I can only argue the units that I've seen played, and the units that I've used. I've chosen to rank some (not all) of the selections that aren't people's first thought when they think of an army.
1. Space Marine Tactical Squad. Great options, great stat line. Awesome survivability for a troops choice. Unless the situation is dire, they are always my first go-to unit selection. Simply awesome sauce.
2. Grey Knights terminators. Terminators for a troops choice is disgusting. That being said, it's my kind of disgusting.
3. Wraith Guard. They may be clunky, but with a well planned Warlock they can seriously wreck face, especially in smaller games.
4. Necron Warriors. They almost tied with the Wraith Guard. They are nearly as survivable as Space Marines. (They lack ATSKNF, which is a bigger negative in my opinion than the positive they receive from Resurrection Protocols.) The ability to hurt anything regardless of Armor or Toughness is a potent tool that cannot be understated.
5. Grey Hunters. They lack the ability to acquire Chapter Tactics, and they can't take ICs in their Drop Pods, which puts them on the outs with my play style. They're still useful, however, especially given their ability to take two special issue weapons.
6. Kroot. The ability to Infiltrate what is essentially an Autocannon (in groups of three, no less) is pretty amazing.
7. Biker Nobz. Expensive, but tough. If played correctly, it's nearly impossible to pour enough firepower into them to eliminate them before they get to where they're going.
8. Penal Legion. One of the most undervalued units in the game, in my opinion, they are pretty sweet for the points you pay for them. Especially useful as the one-troop-minimum-buy-in for an Allied Detachment, they work well as a forward 'sacrifice unit' that is cheap enough to make using them like that worthwhile, but still good enough that anything they survive to do is just icing on the cake. The ability to at least partially influence your opponent's initial tactics cannot be overlooked, and they at least partially provide an opportunity for just that.
9. Chaos Cultists. Squishy, but cheap. You don't pay much for them, but you get what you pay for.
10. Death Company. Expensive as heck, but more survivable than even your garden variety Marine, which is a big part of the reason they took number one in the first place. Their limited options and lack of flexibility with the Allies I like to use places them at the bottom of my list. Still, that should just go to show how narrow I considered this particular ranking.
Honorable Mention goes to the Rangers/Pathfinders. The question only allows for one unit per codex, but I found it really hard to choose between these guys and the Wraithguard. The upgraded version of this unit is awesome, it blows the humble Scout out of the water!
Those are just my opinions, of course, which are heaviliy influenced by my play style, and are in no way objective. That being said, I love troops! Frequently, my favorite selections come from the Troops section of the Codex.
You're paying 7 points for a guardsmen that can't take any upgrades whatsoever. Their only special ability is randomly determined, and are mutually exclusive with each other (so you can't plan what their role is at all), and they synergize with basically nothing in the codex.
Anything you could possibly want them for, you can do better with infantry platoons.
They're one of the worst units in the game, much less one of the best troops choices.
You're paying 7 points for a guardsmen that can't take any upgrades whatsoever. Their only special ability is randomly determined, and are mutually exclusive with each other (so you can't plan what their role is at all), and they synergize with basically nothing in the codex.
Anything you could possibly want them for, you can do better with infantry platoons.
They're one of the worst units in the game, much less one of the best troops choices.
I agree penial legion suck. I'm also glad that you came around and admitted that Infantry Platoon are better.
Ailaros wrote: No, I just know that after playing foot guard for a few dozen games in 6th edition that I regularly lost all, or nearly all of my infantry, and that was with 100+ models, which rather confirms what was immediately obvious when I read the changes 6th ed made to by unit cover and wound allocation.
Come up against a few proper anti-horde weapons, and guard infantry just disintegrate. Spending hundreds and hundreds of points on them doesn't seriously change this fact.
Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.
As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.
Ailaros wrote: No, I just know that after playing foot guard for a few dozen games in 6th edition that I regularly lost all, or nearly all of my infantry, and that was with 100+ models, which rather confirms what was immediately obvious when I read the changes 6th ed made to by unit cover and wound allocation.
Come up against a few proper anti-horde weapons, and guard infantry just disintegrate. Spending hundreds and hundreds of points on them doesn't seriously change this fact.
Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.
As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.
Even as the main troops, that isnt quite true. What are the proper anti-horde weapons you speak of Ailaros? You both realize that Kopach's Adepticon list was mostly Guardsmen, correct? Seemed to work out pretty well to me.
Filch wrote: I am a CSM player and I just think not having ATSKNF and combat squad for being 1pt cheaper is not justifiable. I have to pay for an Icon of Vengeance to give them fearless which is half as good as ATSKNF. Sure I can take 20 csm, but I have no vehicles to transport them. If I had some form of combat squad, I would take 20 csm, split them into 2 groups of 10 and put them in rhinos. Even if I take 20 csm, I can only take 1 heavy and 1 spec or 2 special weapons. So what you cant take double special weapons? When you have 2 tac squads with a heavy and spec on each and you combat squad them then you still have 2 heavy and 2 special weapons. The major benefit is that you can now shoot at 4 different targets from having 4 squads. ?
The CSM can get fearless quite easily. I've been taking Fabius bile as an HQ and two 20 man CSM units. Ill attach Fabius to one squad, and use his power to make the other fearless -- giving me two fearless 20 man MEQ squads. I give each squad 2 special weapons.
It does not matter that they don't have as many special/heavy weapons as 4 TAC squads. The point is that they are cheap bodies to contest/control mid-field objectives. Its the rest of my army that does the heavy lifting for damage output. (Helldrakes and daemons)
rigeld2 wrote:Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.
As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.
If your opponent brought anti-horde weapons, and you gave them something more worthwhile than marines (or whatever) to shoot at, that sounds like a win for your opponent, not a loss.
LValx wrote: What are the proper anti-horde weapons you speak of Ailaros? You both realize that Kopach's Adepticon list was mostly Guardsmen, correct? Seemed to work out pretty well to me.
Firstly, winning a couple of dice games doesn't say very much.
Secondly, there are TONS of things that can shred hordes with little problem. Any fast option with a template weapon like flamer stormies or interceptors, or anything with a high volume of fire like venoms or annihilation barges. Hell, the entire tau codex is an anti-horde weapon. It's really not that difficult to come up with ways to kill guardsmen. I don't know what's wrong with adepticon players, but people at my FLGS managed to figure it out in a hurry.
Lol. With proper cover Interceptors aren't killing many Guardsmen and they probably aren't going to see the table often due to the Helturkey (expensive marines aren't so hot these days). Proper spacing nets 4 hits with a flamer template. So you might kill 20 points... Nice!
You mention Anni Barges, which is hilarious, averages 5 Wounds and kills 3 Guardsmen... very efficient! Venoms? That's a joke too right? With cover they do hardly any damage.
Tau are an honest problem.
Tony winning a couple dice games against high level competition, sure let's brush it off. I'd trust those results more than I trust the advice of a player who has some wonky perceptions about the game though.
rigeld2 wrote:Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.
As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.
If your opponent brought anti-horde weapons, and you gave them something more worthwhile than marines (or whatever) to shoot at, that sounds like a win for your opponent, not a loss.
LValx wrote:Tony winning a couple dice games against high level competition, sure let's brush it off. I'd trust those results more than I trust the advice of a player who has some wonky perceptions about the game though.
I suppose horde armies would be tough to beat if you dismiss those things which are good against them. I only wish the opponents around where I play did that, then I could go back to playing foot guard again.
rigeld2 wrote:Sure. Concentrate fire on that one platoon.
Thanks.
If you spend hundreds of points on a scoring unit that gets wiped off the board by some bale flamers and loses you a home objective, then you're welcome. Thank you for bringing something that costs hundreds of points and has no killing power.
Also, thanks for not bringing respawning conscripts which are way cheaper and way better at the same job.
Ailaros wrote: Also, thanks for not bringing respawning conscripts which are way cheaper and way better at the same job.
Except they're not. They're far easier to rout off the table (can't attach ICs to em, as the unit gets removed and the IC is a member of the unit), if I go second (and it wouldn't be a bad idea) I just have to throw a few shots over there, you fail a morale test and poof - the objective is neutral again.
And if your heldrakes are playing with the platoon they aren't killing higher value targets that are a threat. So... okay.
You're paying 7 points for a guardsmen that can't take any upgrades whatsoever. Their only special ability is randomly determined, and are mutually exclusive with each other (so you can't plan what their role is at all), and they synergize with basically nothing in the codex.
Anything you could possibly want them for, you can do better with infantry platoons.
They're one of the worst units in the game, much less one of the best troops choices.
Except that I don't want them to synergize with anything in their codex. I want them to be able to have purchased a single troops unit so that I can gain access to the Heavy Support section of their Codex, and I don't want to pay an arm and a leg to do it. Yes, Veterans are technically cheaper, but by the time you add any options to them to make them worthwhile, they become more expensive.
As an all around troops choice? Not so great. For a specific, defined strategy? Much more valuable than people give them credit for, in my opinion. Which is, of course, just my opinion. (And yes, I am aware that pretty much no one agrees with me, so I'm not too broken up about being the minority in the "Penal Legion Fan Club." )
Arguments from authority are not automatically a fallacy. And in this case im simply using results from a "competitive" event to back up the claim that blobs are in fact a good troop choice. I can name other successful competitive players who use them to good effect, but i'm sure you'll turn your nose up to those as well.
If you want to debunk the claim that blobs are good you are going to have to do better than listing units that aren't particularly good vs. blobs. There are good weapons (manticores, griffons, sms), but most weapons often seen fielded aren't particularly good vs. them. The army generally revered as best in the game, Necrons, don't have good ways to remove Guardsmen. Tesla destructors being AP- means they dont take out enough Guardsmen to make a big impact. Heldrakes also are very popular and also don't do enough damage to blobs.
Templates in general, while better than most weaponry, aren't THAT great vs blobs because a meticulous player can space out to minimize damage. Proper spacing nets 4 hits on flamers, 5 on large blasts and 2 on small. Unless they ignore cover they grant a chance for saves. Fast template units must do large amounts of damage or else they'll be staring down a whole bunch of lasguns, which when buffed tear up infantry.
Find me a more survivable troop choice per point outside of Tervigons, I don't think there are many. MEQs and Terminators simply aren't what they once were. I'd rather have a large number of cheap models than smaller amounts of expensive ones.
Now since you are a Guard player i'm sure you'll bring up MechVets, which are good but not as great as in 5th. Vehicles, like it or not, have more drawbacks than they once did. And considering you must disembark to capture objectives, I wouldnt rely too heavily on 10 man squads to stay alive.
Blobs might not be the best, but they're certainly more viable than you give them credit for. If they really aren't, I'd love to be convinced otherwise as it is always good to replace bad beliefs with better ones.
Also not to mention that at Adepticon you have to bring TAC lists, so not everyone will have to tools to take out a blob or horde army as easily as someone at a gaming store who knows who they are fighting and might know your tendencies as to what you bring.
LValx wrote:Tony winning a couple dice games against high level competition, sure let's brush it off. I'd trust those results more than I trust the advice of a player who has some wonky perceptions about the game though.
I suppose horde armies would be tough to beat if you dismiss those things which are good against them. I only wish the opponents around where I play did that, then I could go back to playing foot guard again.
rigeld2 wrote:Sure. Concentrate fire on that one platoon.
Thanks.
If you spend hundreds of points on a scoring unit that gets wiped off the board by some bale flamers and loses you a home objective, then you're welcome. Thank you for bringing something that costs hundreds of points and has no killing power.
Also, thanks for not bringing respawning conscripts which are way cheaper and way better at the same job.
Skysheild landing pad gives a 4++ invo. Several of the DA characters can also give out 4++ invos to units. If your worried about losing guys to weapons that ignore cover throw in some of thise options and turn your massive blob in a massive squad of wyches that can save vs Ranged & Close Combat. If you add in a primaris psyker as well and roll for biomancy that squad can get some real benifits and will become a tank of a unit to kill.
Infantry Squads alone are quite average. They work best with good supporting options. Eg. Cover, moral boosters, etc.
Facts and ideas stand or fall on their own merit, independent of the person who says them. Once you bring in idiosyncrasy, you bring in fallacy.
And no amount of evidence is going to convince someone hell-bent on throwing out data as anomalous because it doesn't match their pre-existing point of view. If you really can't figure out how to kill guardsmen, then you lack creativity, as every codex has plenty of options. Plus, if guardsmen were really so godly, then, to use your appeal ad populum, all you would have seen was foot guard lists since their current codex has come out. You haven't. Meanwhile 6th edition came by and made foot guard categorically worse with changes in rules to cover and wound allocation amongst many, many others. Just throwing a 200 point space marine character in the blob doesn't change this fact.
In any case, the burden of proof is on those who think that guardsmen are awesome, not those who are skeptical thereof.
And if all you wanted was a 10-man squad to fill a troops choice, then take veterans instead. They cost the same as penal legion, but you can shed a couple of points on them to give them upgrades to make them actually worth taking.
Ailaros wrote: Facts and ideas stand or fall on their own merit, independent of the person who says them. Once you bring in idiosyncrasy, you bring in fallacy.
You're missing the point. It's not a claim that person X has said Y therefore Y, it's a claim that person X has used list Y in competitive tournaments and won. I know you (foolishly) believe that luck is all that matters in 40k and it's just a game of dice, but in reality you don't win consistently by playing bad lists with no skill. Therefore if a list/unit is consistently winning then it's a strong argument that it's an effective list/unit.
If you really can't figure out how to kill guardsmen, then you lack creativity, as every codex has plenty of options.
Every codex has options. But can every codex bring enough of them in a TAC list, or are you just assuming that everyone tailors against blob IG?
Plus, if guardsmen were really so godly, then, to use your appeal ad populum, all you would have seen was foot guard lists since their current codex has come out.
Let me get this straight: a unit isn't good unless it's the only thing anyone is using? Do you realize how insane this is?
Anyway, it is difficult to objectively prove anything when it comes to discussing the goodness and badness of units. I did what I could to provide some reasoning as to why I believe large Guard squads are good, I think I made my point pretty well.
You say the blob got worse but you are ignoring the buffs they received and they are numerous. Ability to gain ATSKNF, access to prescience, psychic shenanigans, overwatch, power axes and challenges, changes to objective handling and CC with vehicles. Those are just a few and i'm sure we could come up with others. Cover may have been nerfed but that affected everyone, so I don't consider it too big of a nerf and if you want to mitigate it take an aegis (doesnt penalize Lasguns either).
You also are making me seem like someone who has a personal investment in this issue. I don't play with a blob, I probably won't. But having played against them, I cannot deny their effectiveness. I'm looking at this as objectively as I can and I think you are wrong. The blob might not be the best, but I definitely think they are in the upper tier.
Uh... so are we now comparing troops factoring in allied combinations? I'll chip in but, that widens the lane a lot.
I've fought against IG platoons with attached Rune Priests. Thankfully I always use Chees-- Eldrad :p The rest of the work was done by throwig pie-plates at them. They can be tough.
Maybe the tier-list of troops should first be resolved in a vaccum, then FOC modified troops in a vaccum (e.g Draigo's Paladins, Baron's Hellions, etc...)
A few people winning a few dice games with practically no variables controlled for does not make good data. Not in the slightest. It doesn't matter who is playing them, or in how big of a convention center.
Furthermore, any army list that can't kill a few dozen guardsmen, isn't a take all comer's list.
Blobs did get some buffs, but they're nothing compared to what they lost. ATSKNF, for example, doesn't stop the guardsmen from just getting shot off the board, and psychic shenannigans doesn't cover for the fact that you have to put your best short ranged weapons the furthest from where they're most useful thanks to the new wound allocation rules. Add in the loss of by-unit cover and of properly hidden upgrades, and all blobs can really do is hide somewhere deep in cover and hope that their opponents haven't brought template weapons or artillery, or a high volume of fire, or any of MANY things that can take apart guardsmen.
They lost mobility, durability and killing power. The fact that power axes give +1S or that they auto-rally after they fall back is mere window dressing on a bad product.
Also, Guardsmen can be used in more than just blobs. They can be used well as bubble wrap in a gunline style army where veterans are too expensive/not numerous enough and wont run off the board when sneezed at like conscripts would AND can pack a punch with heavy weapons and orders.
And you've literally just convinced me to ignore tactica posts from you.
Especially since you're arguing for Conscriots with SITNW as a viable alternative - because they'll get shot off the board significantly easier, will do worse if I decide to assault them instead, and get none of the benefits a blob does while keeping all of the cons.
Literally the only benefit is that they can come back - which isn't always a good thing.
I don't get why people are ignoring the fact that conscripts come back.
When you kill a few conscripts, they get charged back up to full strength and get to teleport to anywhere in your deployment zone on your next turn.
It would be rather silly to take conscripts without send in the next wave, I agree, but it would also be silly to use a land raider to transport scouts or to take sternguard without combi-weapons...
Ailaros wrote: A few people winning a few dice games with practically no variables controlled for does not make good data. Not in the slightest. It doesn't matter who is playing them, or in how big of a convention center.
So if that's not good data then what does that make your own personal experiences? Will you consistently apply your rule and admit that all of the games you've played are irrelevant?
Furthermore, any army list that can't kill a few dozen guardsmen, isn't a take all comer's list.
1) It's potentially more than a few dozen. You can easily take 100+ guardsmen, 200+ if you're willing to focus completely on blobs.
2) There's more than just blobs in your list. Yes, most lists can kill 50 guardsmen in 2+ cover, but that means focusing on the blobs instead of shooting the rest of your list (which will be killing enemy scoring units, removing the best anti-horde units, etc).
ATSKNF, for example, doesn't stop the guardsmen from just getting shot off the board
No, but 30-50 models with 2+ cover and a 97% chance of passing a morale test does a pretty good job of stopping them from getting shot off the board. And if that's not durable enough I really have to ask what IS durable enough? Because by that ridiculously high standard I doubt you can come up with a single "good" scoring unit in any codex.
and psychic shenannigans doesn't cover for the fact that you have to put your best short ranged weapons the furthest from where they're most useful thanks to the new wound allocation rules.
You know what that means? Blobs are now about scoring and lascannons, not melta delivery. Fortunately you have plenty of other good options for melta/plasma delivery, so you can use blob melta in a defensive role.
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Ailaros wrote: I don't get why people are ignoring the fact that conscripts come back.
Because:
1) They don't come back immediately.
2) They arguably don't come back at all if the unit is wiped out rather than voluntarily removed from play to respawn.
3) The respawning ability costs a lot of points. Combined with their complete lack of offensive threat it's easy to ignore them until late in the game when they don't have time to respawn enough times to justify buying the respawn ability instead of buying more guardsmen.
When you kill a few conscripts, they get charged back up to full strength and get to teleport to anywhere in your deployment zone on your next turn.
Which means spending a turn off the table. On turn 6 are you really going to voluntarily remove the unit and hope that the game doesn't end before you get to respawn them?
I can't seriously believe that anyone could think IG blobs are bad. There's a reason that they place consistently well in tournaments. Tony Kopach won NOVA with a guard blob and just came second at Adepticon. I mean, apart from Grey Hunters, is there actually a better troops choice in the game? They provide the horde part for marine armies and tarpit almost anything you need, whilst eating a hugely disproportionate amount of shooting (55 men with tools to kill any unit for 360 points is just insane). Who cares if you lose 25 guys when the unit is only designed to be a wall anyway?
Ailaros wrote: I don't get why people are ignoring the fact that conscripts come back.
When you kill a few conscripts, they get charged back up to full strength and get to teleport to anywhere in your deployment zone on your next turn.
It would be rather silly to take conscripts without send in the next wave, I agree, but it would also be silly to use a land raider to transport scouts or to take sternguard without combi-weapons...
I'm not ignoring it - I've mentioned it multiple times.
You're exaggerating the usefulness of it. Remember, you have to deal with the fact that they're Conscriots first.
Also, as Peregrine brought up, it's debateable if they can come back if the entire unit is destroyed (like... If they run off the table)
LValx wrote: Templates in general, while better than most weaponry, aren't THAT great vs blobs because a meticulous player can space out to minimize damage. Proper spacing nets 4 hits on flamers, 5 on large blasts and 2 on small.
That's assuming there's space to actually spread out. The typical IG parking lot is filled with heavy metal, isn't it? Artillery that leaves room for a blob is itself cramped together where one large blast or Doomscythe Deathray can hit 2-3 tanks.
Granted a blob camping an objective can spread out a bit better than a 30-ork boyz mob that's trying to reach the opponents. Those seem to to disappear just fine when a 10 strong SoB squad (flamer, heavy flamer) and Celestine with two twin handflamer Seraphim comes at them from different directions. It's only 7 templates and a few score bolter shots, but works pretty well.
Peregrine wrote:So if that's not good data then what does that make your own personal experiences?
Not data. I don't need to rely on personal anecdotes or those of others to make arguments on what is plainly obvious from reading the rules.
Peregrine wrote:There's more than just blobs in your list. Yes, most lists can kill 50 guardsmen in 2+ cover, but that means focusing on the blobs instead of shooting the rest of your list (which will be killing enemy scoring units, removing the best anti-horde units, etc).
Either your blobs are an important target, and they're getting attacked, or they're not an important target, so why did you bother bringing them if they're so useless?
If you assume an opponent who is capable of building a balanced list and playing at least semi-competently, then they'll be able to put the right weapon on the right targets. The right weapons targeting guardsmen means dead guardsmen.
Peregrine wrote: 30-50 models with 2+ cover and a 97% chance of passing a morale test does a pretty good job of stopping them from getting shot off the board.
High leadership doesn't help dead models.
Plus, leadership hasn't been the weakness of blobs in a long time. A single 35-point commissar is good enough to sort that out.
Peregrine wrote:Blobs are now about scoring and lascannons, not melta delivery. Fortunately you have plenty of other good options for melta/plasma delivery, so you can use blob melta in a defensive role.
A 40-man blob squad with a commissar, a full contingency of power axes, and maxed out on lascannons with a space marine special character and an aegis EASILY costs over 600 points. For 5 usually twin-linked lascannons. If all you wanted was 4 lascannon hits a turn and a scoring unit, your beloved vendettas with veterans does virtually the same job at a third the price, and is much more mobile.
Spending that many points for that small amount of firepower from an imperial guard unit is absurd, especially if you're allying them in, and can take advantage of much better stuff from the rest of the codex. 600 points for something that's a few well-placed bale flamers or inferno cannons (amongst many, many other things) away from being mauled to the point where even non-anti-horde specialists can easily handle them isn't a good buy.
Peregrine wrote:So if that's not good data then what does that make your own personal experiences?
Not data. I don't need to rely on personal anecdotes or those of others to make arguments on what is plainly obvious from reading the rules.
Peregrine wrote:There's more than just blobs in your list. Yes, most lists can kill 50 guardsmen in 2+ cover, but that means focusing on the blobs instead of shooting the rest of your list (which will be killing enemy scoring units, removing the best anti-horde units, etc).
Either your blobs are an important target, and they're getting attacked, or they're not an important target, so why did you bother bringing them if they're so useless?
Because if you build your list correctly your opponent will have more threats than guns. In that instance many people shoot the immediate threats first. You do realize your opponent doesn't get to fire every gun at every unit, right? Opportunity cost is a thing.
Making the blob a threat but difficult to kill off means everything in your army lives longer.
Stop pretending that a blob is trivial to wipe out but Conscripts will live forever.
Ailaros wrote: Either your blobs are an important target, and they're getting attacked, or they're not an important target, so why did you bother bringing them if they're so useless?
Do I really need to explain the concept of target saturation to you? A good list ensures that everything is a threat (in its own way) and an important target so that your opponent can't possibly engage all threats at once. For example, spending bolters on killing a blob in 2+ cover means not spending those bolters on killing the plasma vets my Vendetta just delivered to the devastator squad that is your only source of AA capable of engaging my Vulture that is currently blowing away your scoring units. In a real game the decisions are a lot more complex than "shoot the blob" or "not shoot the blob".
If all you wanted was 4 lascannon hits a turn and a scoring unit, your beloved vendettas with veterans does virtually the same job at a third the price, and is much more mobile.
Again you're missing the point. The purpose of a blob isn't maximum point-efficient firepower, it's scoring. The lascannons/power axes (one or both) give it something to do while scoring. And scoring is a role a small 10-man squad with short-range guns has a lot of trouble with.
But I suppose my experiences with mech vets are just anecdotes, not data, and we should all ignore them in favor of looking at theoretical calculations about how veterans are great objective holders.
Peregrine wrote:A good list ensures that everything is a threat (in its own way) and an important target so that your opponent can't possibly engage all threats at once.
rigeld2 wrote:Because if you build your list correctly your opponent will have more threats than guns.
If your opponent builds his list correctly, he'll have more guns than your threats.
Plus, if you're allying guard, it's rather unlikely that you're going to have much of anything that has saturation with the blob. If you're playing just foot guard, then, while you multiply the strengths, you also multiply the weaknesses. Given that the weaknesses outstrip the strengths, this means that your list gets weaker the more you practice target saturation, not stronger.
rigeld2 wrote:Stop pretending that a blob is trivial to wipe out but Conscripts will live forever.
Let me know when you figure out what "respawning" means.
Peregrine wrote: The purpose of a blob isn't maximum point-efficient firepower, it's scoring.
Which other things do better, or cheaper, or both.
Peregrine wrote:But I suppose my experiences with mech vets are just anecdotes, not data, and we should all ignore them in favor of looking at theoretical calculations about how veterans are great objective holders.
If only anecdotal evidence lead to objective truth. Alas...
I guess if veterans are such bad objective holders, then I guess most imperial guard players who bring them must just lose most of their games. Furthermore, I guess nobody should bother with vendettas anymore, if the scoring units they drop off aren't going to be reliable enough to get the job done.
Oh well, I guess foot guard is the only way to play guard nowadays. After all, your anecdotes say so.
Peregrine wrote:A good list ensures that everything is a threat (in its own way) and an important target so that your opponent can't possibly engage all threats at once.
rigeld2 wrote:Because if you build your list correctly your opponent will have more threats than guns.
If your opponent builds his list correctly, he'll have more guns than your threats.
Yes, every TAC will destroy a high target saturation list. Every time, npnp.
Plus, if you're allying guard, it's rather unlikely that you're going to have much of anything that has saturation with the blob. If you're playing just foot guard, then, while you multiply the strengths, you also multiply the weaknesses. Given that the weaknesses outstrip the strengths, this means that your list gets weaker the more you practice target saturation, not stronger.
Not true at all - but whatever floats your boat.
rigeld2 wrote:Stop pretending that a blob is trivial to wipe out but Conscripts will live forever.
Let me know when you figure out what "respawning" means.
I've addressed that. So has Peregrine. You keep ignoring it, but its been addressed.
Peregrine wrote: The purpose of a blob isn't maximum point-efficient firepower, it's scoring.
Which other things do better, or cheaper, or both.
Nope.
I guess if veterans are such bad objective holders, then I guess most imperial guard players who bring them must just lose most of their games. Furthermore, I guess nobody should bother with vendettas anymore, if the scoring units they drop off aren't going to be reliable enough to get the job done.
They are bad as stationary backfield objective holders. Vets and blobs do not fill the same role.
Before we go any further I'd like to point out that to take conscripts you need to take a Platoon which includes Infantry Squads. A platoon can also take Sabre's. So for me an IG Infantry Platoon would rank number 1 on the list just for the amount of options it can take. No other codex has a troops choice that can hold several objectives at the same time.
Brandt, Kopach, Gonyo and some others i've seen or played have just ran blobs with nothing but power axes and some krak grenades or melta bombs. I think that works pretty well. It can push midfield pretty quickly and makes great use of FRFSRF. It also makes it really, really cheap while maintaining some offensive capabilities (though less versatile). With proper support it can be quite a pain. The allied combinations help them, but i've tested it without the marine IC and still found it to be powerful.
You can field 2 and some marines with lots of shooting support.
In 40k we don't have collected statistics across the entirety of the player base. We don't have in depth metrics to evaluate a range situations and control for variables. We have personal anecdotes, basic mathematical analysis (mathhammer), and major GT results. Personal anecdotes are near useless, and mathhammer only gives a small picture of what a unit can do (too isolate, doesn't account for unit synergy, board placement, value in scoring, etc)
Major GT results obviously are not perfect. They are a small sample size, and we have to assume that the top players there are all of similar skill level. That said, it's not perfect, but it is at least good enough to say that a Power Blob with MEQ is an above average Troops unit. Tony Kopach alone, with repeated success in GTs abusing the same concept (Njal, Khan, whatever, the concept is the same. Multiple positive benefits across 50 bodies), shows that they are viable. You cannot say IG blobs suck, because they are performing in the closest thing to a pro circuit this game has.
This isn't a WoW situation, where only one choice is categorically the best. In 40k, there are multiple ways to go about fielding an army that are all 'correct.' Depending on the army you play, the way in which you play it, and the opponents you expect to face, you can see a huge variability in the mileage you get out of each troop choice. There's no reason for us to try and force everyone else to agree with our opinions. Personally, the reason I enjoy threads like this is because I want to see what other people see in units I don't look at, or use.
Ailaros wrote: If your opponent builds his list correctly, he'll have more guns than your threats.
You have got to be kidding. Do you honestly think that all you have to do is "build your list correctly" and you'll have more than enough firepower to simultaneously counter every single threat on the table, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
Let me know when you figure out what "respawning" means.
Please stop ignoring the major drawbacks to the respawning conscript plan. Simply saying "respawning" doesn't make them go away.
I guess if veterans are such bad objective holders, then I guess most imperial guard players who bring them must just lose most of their games.
Let me make this nice and simple: veterans are great at melta/plasma delivery, decent at scoring objectives late in the game once most threats have been killed, and terrible at holding objectives against a determined effort to take them. This means that an all-veteran list will be great at killing stuff, but struggle to hold objectives with its fragile troops. It can obviously still win through a maximum-firepower approach of killing enemy scoring units and dropping the last surviving vets on an objective for a 1-0 win, but it's not really hard to see how people could want a more reliable plan to supplement those vets.
Furthermore, I guess nobody should bother with vendettas anymore, if the scoring units they drop off aren't going to be reliable enough to get the job done.
Vendettas alone aren't reliable enough. It's really not that complicated: Vendettas kill stuff and deliver late-game scoring units, platoons hold your "home" objectives. This isn't a black and white situation where you're only allowed to take one type of unit in your list.
warpspider89 wrote: the conscripts arrive automatically, but from the board edge - not anywhere in the controlling players zone as previously listed
You mean you don't play on a completely empty table with no difficult or impassable terrain that could possibly get in the way of moving on 6" + D6" run at perfect 2" coherency?
warpspider89 wrote: the conscripts arrive automatically, but from the board edge - not anywhere in the controlling players zone as previously listed
You mean you don't play on a completely empty table with no difficult or impassable terrain that could possibly get in the way of moving on 6" + D6" run at perfect 2" coherency?
If you are only speaking of the ability to constantly flood an objective with cheap bodies, and nothing else, I can see the argument for conscripts.
Although blobs are certainly more expensive/body, they are an amazing synergism unit, and with modest investment can be turned into a unit that is difficult to remove from shooting or assault. I design lists with the ability to remove blobs in mind, not conscripts, FWIW.
Sinji wrote: You need to position the nob so he is out of challenge range on the turn you charge. Then he can move up and make his attacks at I1 turn 2 he might get challanged though. I tend to run my units either with an IC to challange with or with a Squad of Bikes to get 2 characters into combat at the same time. The Nob Leader in the normal bike squad is pretty good in a challange with a better amour save, toughness and hammer of wrath he does alright.
That's one way of getting around the problem if circumstances favor you. Personally I resent the fact that 6th Edition has made it such that I have to play my Orks to NOT charge into combat, but rather sit back and let the enemy come to me, with like you suggest, the Nob 4 or 5 inches back in the squad. Then I rely on Overwatch shots, and hope the Nob is still far enough away from the action he can't be challenged the first round. None of that type of play is very "Orky" and for me at least, it takes part of the FUN away from playing my army.
Sitting back and Overwatching doesn't help you much as Orks when you're going up against a gun-line that is NEVER going to charge you though. And whether or not your Nob will be Challenged out of the combat is mostly left up to the luck of the dice you roll on your charge distance.
For me, the best solution I've been able to do is to put a Nob with a Big Choppa in Boyz squads that have a Big Mek or a Warboss in them, and give the Power Klaw to the Warboss / Big Mek. When you are inevitably challenged, the Nob can decline the challenge and slink away, leaving your Big Mek or Warboss free to deliver some punching power. Of course this means you can only do this on two Boyz squads in your entire army since it involves using an IC.
Sorry to tell you this but challenge dose not have a range, add Over Watch and charge range being a LD test ( you want to roll high on 2d6) melee is dead and building a list with melee in it will fail hard
My list would be
1) IG any unit there all way to good now!
2) Fire Warriors
3) DATac 4) Ravenwing
5) Deathwing
6) GK any unit there all OP 7) GK Paladins
8) SWGH 9) Necron Immortals / Necron Warriors
10) SM Scouts
11) BATac 12) Nob Bikes
13) SM Bikes
14) DE Warriors
15) Pink Horrors
16) Plague Marines
17) Noise Marines
18) CSM / CSM with a mark other then khorne
19) SMTAC 20) Tyranid Warriors
21) Eldar Jetbikes
22) Dire Avengers
23) Tyranid Gaunts Devourers
24) Eldar Guardians
25) Grot Mobs
26) Kroot Warriors
27) Plaguebearers
28) Wraithguard
29) Ork Shoota BoyZ without the Nob
Seriously, just cuz some of them got bieks doesn't mean they can beat 
Sorry, didn't see it.
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My list would be
