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 Dakkamite wrote:

3. Guard Blob (again its not great without support units, as soon is a Marine character is in there they become pretty crazy though)

Are you referring to the 50 Guardsmen and 4++ save thing?

Because that gak is insane. I hate to think that there would be even more powerful choices.

That is probably one of the strongest builds, but wasn't actually what I was referring to. Because of the way ATSKNF works as soon as there is a single Marine character in a blob of 50 Guardsmen it automatically rallies and can never be swept (unless you kill the character somehow). So even a basic Librarian in a blob makes them significantly stronger, and there are plenty of other combos around (Khan giving them Furious Charge and Hit and Run for example).

@ Peregrine. That's pretty much backwards lol, a vehicle will always be a terrible troop unit because it can never score.

Really the Tactical Squads for all the Marine flavours can be combined together as a single ranking as there is very little variation between them. BA get a 1/6 chance of Fearless (which is arguably worse since you can't go to ground, which is important for a scoring unit), Dark Angels get Flakk (until everyone else gets updated) and the nilla Marine ones can't take any options as a 5 man but get a bit more flexibility with Chapter Tactics/Combat Tactics.

Who needs to hold objectives when you can field a wall of AV14 and table your opponent every game.

One per army, and I included force org changes because that's what I see.

Coteaz Henchmen
Ork Boyz
IG Platoon
Grey Hunters
Tervigon
Noise Marines
DA Tactical
Plaguebearers
Necron Warriors
DE Warriors
BA tacticals
Eldar Jetbikes
Fire Warriors
SM Tactical

Umm did you guys forget plaguemarines? Def top 5. T5 comes with extra ccw, defensive grenades, poison weapons and fnp.

1. tervigon
2. grey knight termies
3. Necron warriors
4. grey hunters
5. IG blob

 Peregrine wrote:
Best troops choice in the game:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/dkkdemocomp.jpg

Worst troops choice in the game: everything that is not a DKOK Leman Russ Demolisher or Executioner.

So it can't ever score and will lose to many troop choices (as it can only move 6" a turn)...
For example, I know my Tervigons would kill it.

phempchildrenbob wrote:
Umm did you guys forget plaguemarines? Def top 5. T5 comes with extra ccw, defensive grenades, poison weapons and fnp.

I think a lot of people aren't counting them as troops because they need a Nurgle Lord to get them out of elites.

Personally, I'm more afraid of min Noise Marines with blastmasters, but I think it's very close. The OP said one from each army, so I couldn't add in the plague marines also.

Cultists aren't good. Zombies are.

Take an allied imperial guard blob instead. Serves the same purpose only better.

Plague marines FTW. They never stop surprising me.

Just the ability to take Blastmasters puts noise marines in the top 3 for me. My top 5 would be:

1)GKSS (force weapons and deepstrike area denial. Load them with halberds and they would take down a Tevigon with little problems. If we are counting FOC modifiers then no.1 would be Paladins hands down.)
2)Noise marines. 4 5man squads with blast masters will upset anyone but a all terminator force
3)Firewarriors (on mass with an Ethereal + Pathfinders. Supporting Overwatch can be insane and really puts a spanner in assaulting enemy plans)
4)Tevigons (MC that can spawn more troops, nuff said)
5)Necron Warriors + Nightscyth

 Zheak wrote:


you should do the math then.

170 points of warriors wil have less wounds than 170 points of immortals (by .2 or 3) against meqs
they also have a better armor save and ap 4

Yes, but the reason Necron troops are good are because of Night Scythes. And 5 warriors in a Night Scythe is the best Necron troop choice and is better than any corresponding Immortal unit.

I'm surprised no one is mentioning Plaguebearers. They are cheap, have an Invnerable save, easily create 2++ cover without sacrificing anything.

Also with their poison attacks they can put wounds on anything that gets into contact with them. Pretty good objective scores.

And they can glance Land raiders to death! I'm having troubles with thinking what is better. Noises or Plagues.

Kangodo wrote:
Two questions:
What makes BA-tacticals so much better than other tactical squads? I play BA, but don't know much about other SM-armies.

It's mainly because we can get FNP, Fearless, and Furious Charge on the cheap. Also, I think we have cheaper specials as well.

Devourer Gaunts seem like a good troop as well.

Lucarikx

Pony_law wrote:
I'm surprised no one is mentioning Plaguebearers. They are cheap, have an Invnerable save, easily create 2++ cover without sacrificing anything.

Also with their poison attacks they can put wounds on anything that gets into contact with them. Pretty good objective scores.

I had PBs are 9th overall in OP. Sounds about right to me for something with no range.

Powerguy wrote:
@ Peregrine. That's pretty much backwards lol, a vehicle will always be a terrible troop unit because it can never score.

Screw scoring, you have a demolisher cannon.

First Place Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon

Best thing about a platoon is Sabre Gun Platforms. They are a troop, are Twin linked, have interceptor, skyfire and scout, are T7 vs ranged attacks and cheep.

The platoon also comes with a Blob that is part of the same Slot in the FOC. Not to mention all the other bits the rest of the platoon can get.

 kronk wrote:
Ork Boys are still a Power Klaw Delivery System, and thus, the best troop unit in the game!

Oh, you mean the Power Klaw Delivery System which no longer works, because most things can simply Challenge the Nob to either 1) Kill the Nob outright before he attacks or 2) Prevent the Nob from doing any damage.

Orks took a nose-dive with 6th Edition and Challenge rules. They're still good... but not THAT good anymore.

You need to position the nob so he is out of challenge range on the turn you charge. Then he can move up and make his attacks at I1 turn 2 he might get challanged though. I tend to run my units either with an IC to challange with or with a Squad of Bikes to get 2 characters into combat at the same time. The Nob Leader in the normal bike squad is pretty good in a challange with a better amour save, toughness and hammer of wrath he does alright.

Sinji wrote:
You need to position the nob so he is out of challenge range on the turn you charge. Then he can move up and make his attacks at I1 turn 2 he might get challanged though. I tend to run my units either with an IC to challange with or with a Squad of Bikes to get 2 characters into combat at the same time. The Nob Leader in the normal bike squad is pretty good in a challange with a better amour save, toughness and hammer of wrath he does alright.

That's one way of getting around the problem if circumstances favor you. Personally I resent the fact that 6th Edition has made it such that I have to play my Orks to NOT charge into combat, but rather sit back and let the enemy come to me, with like you suggest, the Nob 4 or 5 inches back in the squad. Then I rely on Overwatch shots, and hope the Nob is still far enough away from the action he can't be challenged the first round. None of that type of play is very "Orky" and for me at least, it takes part of the FUN away from playing my army.

Sitting back and Overwatching doesn't help you much as Orks when you're going up against a gun-line that is NEVER going to charge you though. And whether or not your Nob will be Challenged out of the combat is mostly left up to the luck of the dice you roll on your charge distance.

For me, the best solution I've been able to do is to put a Nob with a Big Choppa in Boyz squads that have a Big Mek or a Warboss in them, and give the Power Klaw to the Warboss / Big Mek. When you are inevitably challenged, the Nob can decline the challenge and slink away, leaving your Big Mek or Warboss free to deliver some punching power. Of course this means you can only do this on two Boyz squads in your entire army since it involves using an IC.

You can't position characters so that they can avoid challenges. Not without completely breaking the entire challenge system so that no one could ever challenge.

And why on earth are people saying blobs are good? They have very little survivability unless they're going to ground behind an aegis, and they have basically no mobility. Or force concentration. Even if you do something silly like throw a space marine character in there you're spending hundreds and hundreds of points on basically nothing but a single scoring unit.

And it's strange because blobs aren't even the best troops choice IN THEIR CODEX, much less the entire game.

Mechvets come with more killing power per point than infantry platoons. With the changes to vehicle mobility, they can be a fair bit better. They have way better force concentration. They're immune to small arms fire while they're in the can. The overwatch yo-yo makes you all but immune to assault if you don't overextend yourself.

And if all that weren't enough, you can then add to it a special character that lets them outflank, and you can add doctrines which allow you to, among other things, throw around a demo charge and have everybody in the squad get a meltabomb for 1 pt. per model.

There's nothing you can't do with mechvets nowadays apart from close combat, but that's not something they have to worry too much about (and can take a powerfist if they are). Meanwhile, guard blobs aren't good for much more than dying on objectives on your side of the table.

As for what I think the best troops in the whole game are, I'd definitely give a nod to the tervigon. Also a squad of GKT's with Thawn.That pedro sternguard, and nob bikers.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can't position characters so that they can avoid challenges. Not without completely breaking the entire challenge system so that no one could ever challenge.

You can actually - if you follow the rules.

And why on earth are people saying blobs are good? They have very little survivability unless they're going to ground behind an aegis, and they have basically no mobility. Or force concentration. Even if you do something silly like throw a space marine character in there you're spending hundreds and hundreds of points on basically nothing but a single scoring unit.

Hundreds of points on a single scoring unit that isn't going anywhere and is pretty much impossible to shift with CC.
They're great as allies.

As for what I think the best troops in the whole game are, I'd definitely give a nod to the tervigon. Also a squad of GKT's with Thawn.That pedro sternguard, and nob bikers.

Amusing that all of those are "hundreds of points" as well :-)
Also -Pedro doesn't make Sternguard troops. He just makes them Scoring.

rigeld2 wrote:You can actually - if you follow the rules.

Your interpretation of the rules invalidates the entire challenge system. The only way to follow the rules, by your interpretation, is to pretend that they don't exist.

rigeld2 wrote:Hundreds of points on a single scoring unit that isn't going anywhere and is pretty much impossible to shift with CC.

... but are extremely shiftable with shooting. And they don't do much else. And they cost a LOT.

If all you wanted was a scoring unit to hold the backfield and do nothing else, then you'd do much, much better by dropping that blob in favor of conscripts with send in the next wave.

 Ailaros wrote:
Your interpretation of the rules invalidates the entire challenge system. The only way to follow the rules, by your interpretation, is to pretend that they don't exist.

Sigh. You do realize you're the only person who agrees with your interpretation, right?

... but are extremely shiftable with shooting. And they don't do much else. And they cost a LOT.

Err, lol? Since when is a giant horde of 5-point models with a 2+ cover save "extremely shiftable with shooting"? Outside of Tau and a small number of IG units removing a blob squad from an objective means putting a huge amount of firepower into it, firepower that isn't going to your other units and isn't even guaranteed to get the job done.

If all you wanted was a scoring unit to hold the backfield and do nothing else, then you'd do much, much better by dropping that blob in favor of conscripts with send in the next wave.

Only if you pretend that morale (and things that can force morale checks no matter how many models you lose) doesn't exist. However, in the normal game of 40k, where morale exists, I'd rather have the unit with a 97% chance (or better) to pass a morale check than the one with a 27% chance.

If you add in an Meq psyker with the 4++ invo power or a DA Character that can give the 4++ invo they become hard to move even with Tau or Barrage weapons.

 Ailaros wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You can actually - if you follow the rules.

Your interpretation of the rules invalidates the entire challenge system. The only way to follow the rules, by your interpretation, is to pretend that they don't exist.

Yeah, no.

rigeld2 wrote:Hundreds of points on a single scoring unit that isn't going anywhere and is pretty much impossible to shift with CC.

... but are extremely shiftable with shooting. And they don't do much else. And they cost a LOT.

30+ models with a solid LD, Stubborn, and ATSKNF is extremely shiftable with shooting?
I'll have to tell me opponents that. Thanks for the heads up! Because I've found it extremely difficult to shift them with shooting.

If all you wanted was a scoring unit to hold the backfield and do nothing else, then you'd do much, much better by dropping that blob in favor of conscripts with send in the next wave.

Which are far, FAR easier to rout off the field which could mean you lose the game. That's a good plan.

"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRB pg 64.

thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules

 dmthomas7 wrote:
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRB pg 64.

thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules

I don't want to open up the whole Challenge debate can of worms, but your quote specifically mentions issuing, not issuing AND accepting challenges.

So a character that isn't engaged cannot issue challenges. Right.

But if that character was the initial charger, and makes it into base (or 'engagement') at the start of the combat, & issues a challenge to the nob, even if the nob is right at the back of his unit he has to either accept or decline the challenge. He can't avoid it simply by not being engaged, because the rule make no mention of the challengee being prohibited from responding to the challenge through lack of engagement. In fact, don't you just swap the challengee for a model that is engaged by the challenger if he isn't engaged when the challenge is issued?

In short the nob cannot avoid challenges through placement. I think. I dont have BRB to hand right now.

 somecallmeJack wrote:

 dmthomas7 wrote:
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRB pg 64.

thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules

I don't want to open up the whole Challenge debate can of worms, but your quote specifically mentions issuing, not issuing AND accepting challenges.

So a character that isn't engaged cannot issue challenges. Right.

But if that character was the initial charger, and makes it into base (or 'engagement') at the start of the combat, & issues a challenge to the nob, even if the nob is right at the back of his unit he has to either accept or decline the challenge. He can't avoid it simply by not being engaged, because the rule make no mention of the challengee being prohibited from responding to the challenge through lack of engagement. In fact, don't you just swap the challengee for a model that is engaged by the challenger if he isn't engaged when the challenge is issued?

In short the nob cannot avoid challenges through placement. I think. I dont have BRB to hand right now.

Yes he can. Break down is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/456724.page#4506193

Sounds like a lot of penis measuring and not a lot of fighting.

Why doesn't some one make a thread that pits the troop choices against each other at a maximum points cap (exactly like what JY2 is doing atm) and we REALLY see who is the best troop choice overall.

 AresX8 wrote:

 somecallmeJack wrote:

 dmthomas7 wrote:
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." BRB pg 64.

thusly if your character is not within that 2 in bubble of a model in base to base contact that he cannot be challenged. that is not open for interpretation it is explicitly stated in the rules

I don't want to open up the whole Challenge debate can of worms, but your quote specifically mentions issuing, not issuing AND accepting challenges.

So a character that isn't engaged cannot issue challenges. Right.

But if that character was the initial charger, and makes it into base (or 'engagement') at the start of the combat, & issues a challenge to the nob, even if the nob is right at the back of his unit he has to either accept or decline the challenge. He can't avoid it simply by not being engaged, because the rule make no mention of the challengee being prohibited from responding to the challenge through lack of engagement. In fact, don't you just swap the challengee for a model that is engaged by the challenger if he isn't engaged when the challenge is issued?

In short the nob cannot avoid challenges through placement. I think. I dont have BRB to hand right now.

Yes he can. Break down is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/456724.page#4506193

I stand corrected.