So this is an idea inspired by Asmodai Asmodean's "Mkoll versus Marbo" thread, where I thought why not make a thread in which we all talk about who would win in various match ups. I'll try to edit this first post with a list of which match starts on which page, as a kind of "contents" to stop confusion.

Contents:
Page one- Calgar vs Ghazghkull, Swarmlord vs Mephiston
Page two- Draigo vs Abaddon

So, first up, Marneus Calgar versus Ghazghkull Thraka- who would win and why?

Hijack! Swarmlord vs Ghazghkull!

Because everyone already knows Ghazghkull beats Calgar's face in.

Ghazgkull beats calgar in game. In fluff he still wins but it is closer.

They both have very strong armour, very good in close combat (Ghaz is stronger, but Calgar has two weapons), and with similar ranged capability (again, Ghaz is more powerful, but Calgar has two), and both are mastermind tacticians. I think Ghaz's rage mode and brute strength wins it, personally, but it is a close fought match.

Calgar beats Ghazghkuull by their actual showings, to be perfectly blunt.

Ghaz's only wins of note are against Yarrick and Belial.

Calgar ripped an Avatar of Khaine in half.

Calgar slaughters.

It's also worth noting that Ghazghkull could crush Calgar in a straight up battle between his orks and Calgar's marines, so yeah... there's that...

That statement has basically zero basis.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That statement has basically zero basis.

Ghazghkull has stood up in a war of attrition against several of chapters of marines (I think it was around the 20 mark) and god knows how many regiments of guardsmen, with enough charisma for him to be a serious threat to the galaxy because he could be the warlord to unite all the orks, and it is said that that if all the orks did unite, they would overrun the entire imperium. AFAIK, the only ork to surpass him in the history of the universe is that one ridiculous ork who almost killed the emperor once.
So yes, his army could probably take one chapter of marines in a fight.

Oh, I assumed you were talking about Ghazghkuull's personal honor guard. I didn't assume you were going to be so irrelevant as to make this thread "Ghazghkuull's entire Waaagh! vs. 1,000 Marines". My mistake.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh, I assumed you were talking about Ghazghkuull's personal honor guard. I didn't assume you were going to be so irrelevant as to make this thread "Ghazghkuull's entire Waaagh! vs. 1,000 Marines". My mistake.

This is just a thread of various match ups, and I just mentioned that if this one were expanded to their respective armies, Ghaz would win. That was all. I wasn't trying to say anything other than that, just make an observation.

Sure, but it is kind of like making the observation that, if all of his bionics were torn off, Straken would have his head pushed down his neck by Harker. While technically true, it seems too much of a foregone conclusion of a point to be worth the time.

yeah, I was just saying, but point taken.

So, next matchup will be tomorrow.

So, new match up:
Mephiston vs The Swarmlord!

(Though I know rough information about them, I can't really make a call on this one).

The Swarmlord has never actually lost or even been drawed. It does however, seem to pick fights it knows it can win. And it did......

*Shades*

Cut Calgar down to size.

ÝYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

Swarmlord, no question. In fluff, he both out-thought and out-fought Calgar, I'd say he can take Mephy, as his intense psychic presence will cut down on Mephistons main advantage of being a Librarian. In game, he wounds Mephiston once and auto kills him, game over.

Swarmlord. Mephy's only real protections are his toughness, which the Swarmlord easily handles w/ it's strength, and his psychic ability, which the Swarmlord counters w/ SitW. One swipe of the Boneswords & it's lights out Mephy.

~Vryce

Given that the Tyranids are gearing to invade Baal, we may just see them fight.

The swarmlord is allegedly going to octarius so i doubt he will be on baal.

Swarmy wins this.

Mephiston, probably.

The guys rips apart Carnifexes as though they were tissue paper, and he does it with his bare hands. He throttled M'kar, once more with his bare hands.

Swarmlord's defeat of Calgar, while backed up by its retinue of Tyranid Warriors and Tyrant Guard, isn't nearly as impressive.

BTW guys, this is based off the fluff rather than the rules- I know mephy would get served in a game

re-reading his unit entry, it looks like he is a serious contender to beat almost everyone, if it weren't for one little thing- that mephiston is thought to be a sliver of the primarch. I'm just speculating here, but it seems like there might be a reason fate didn't want him to die when he took that building to the face, so maybe some high power would help him beat the swarmlord.
overlooking such speculation, the swarmlord would probably beat him due to not giving a gak about psychic abilities, as Vryce reminded me.

Amoras wrote:
The swarmlord is allegedly going to octarius so i doubt he will be on baal.

Swarmy wins this.

A massive tendril of leviathan is angling for Baal, and the blood angels have called all their descendants home for their last stand. Anyone who can help is being contacted, and the hive fleets are about to slam into Baal with the same force that humiliated the Black Templars and fifteen other chapters simultaneously.

Shadow in the Warp does not automatically nullify psychic powers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Shadow in the Warp does not automatically nullify psychic powers.

I thought it did background wise, or at least drastically smothers them.

I'm going to go with swarmlord, it has both brains and brawn.

Well, in the fluff Mephiston beats down Daemon Princes and returns from the dead, but the Swarmlord would probably beat him down in a fair fight.

Lucarikx

The Swarmlord has never won a "fair fight".

Ganging up on Marneus Calgar with your retinue of Tyranid Warriors and Tyrant Guard is not a "fair fight".

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Swarmlord has never won a "fair fight".

Ganging up on Marneus Calgar with your retinue of Tyranid Warriors and Tyrant Guard is not a "fair fight".

Its the smart thing to do, Fighting fair is fighting stupid.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Swarmlord has never won a "fair fight".

Ganging up on Marneus Calgar with your retinue of Tyranid Warriors and Tyrant Guard is not a "fair fight".

Don't be ridiculous by making it sound like it was at all 'unfair'. Its not like Calgar didn't have his honour guard, or a whole marine army by his side. The only reason it got that 'fair' was because of the genius of the Swarmlord to hibernate the Hormagaunts. Back to point, Swarmlord beats the sauce outa the blood sucker. The Swarmlord has more psychic power behind him, and has better wargear. Not really a challenge

No point fighting someone you can't beat

 Kain wrote:
Given that the Tyranids are gearing to invade Baal, we may just see them fight.

Where is this inferred?

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Given that the Tyranids are gearing to invade Baal, we may just see them fight.

Where is this inferred?

Codex: Blood Angels IIRC.

So, new fight:
Abaddon versus Draigo!

Not even a contest.. Abaddon - all day everyday. Between the Talon of Horus & Drachnyen, Draigo doesn't even come close.

~Vryce

Haha, yeah right.

I'm onto you shrike. It can't be a coincidence that every single fight thus far has involved a Wardian character.

People are just going to vote against the Ward-penned characters because of the stigma against Ward.

On topic, Draigo crushes Abaddon, the Swarmlord, and Ghazghkuull at the same time in the fluff. No mortal character in the setting comes close to his accomplishments.

Easily defeating Mortarion and his honor guard, killing a Bloodthirster in the Warp with his bare hands before giving it a true death, burning down the Garden of Nurgle with Psyflame, smashing the Inevitable Fortress to ruin with psychic might after solving the Infinite Labyrinth.

Draigo easy, bias is the only thing that would make anyone say otherwise.

Or the fact that draigo is just sitting in a dream created by tzeentch, being raped daily by slanesh is new and interesting ways.

I'd swear kelly hinted at that in the new daemons dex, just for gits and shiggles.

Also, its true.

Further, abbadon is trained against everything and has better weapons, draigo is just a. Monster against daemons, and would have a hefty disadvantage from the get-go.

Nobody_Holme wrote:
Or the fact that draigo is just sitting in a dream created by tzeentch, being raped daily by slanesh is new and interesting ways.

No he isn't.

I'd swear kelly hinted at that in the new daemons dex, just for gits and shiggles.

Look at the artwork. The Space Marine in that story is not in Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

Also, its true.

What is true?

Further, abbadon is trained against everything and has better weapons, draigo is just a. Monster against daemons, and would have a hefty disadvantage from the get-go.

Well let's see... Draigo has an advantage against Daemons, Abaddon has a Daemon Sword.

Oh my.

This is ignoring the fact that Draigo had the physical strength to push a Primarch onto his back and hold him there, or the martial might to kill a Bloodthirster bare-handed, or the psychic talent to devastate huge structures in the Warp.

Draigo wins and easily. You can not resist my logic.

And then ALL his attacks bounce of Abaddon's 2+ save, is that not right?

Think about Draigo achievements.
Best daemon fighter in a chapter of super daemon fighters I good at killing....daemons(!)
He Burned down a forest with fire...which grew back the next day.
Smashed a part of the inevitable fortress, which again grew back next day and solving the Labyrinth, the main defence is using memories and hopes to stop you. Draigo doesn't have any memories and has no hopes other then killing daemons, that's as much of an accomplishment as completing a rubric cube with the instructions in front of you.

Yeah, not great when you think of it like that. Not to mention its heavily implied he is now slaanesh's Bitch so in the end, Its all a joke because Draigo isn't AP 2.

P.S. Can we do Lilith vs. Kharn next, I wonder what people will think of that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Draigo easy, bias is the only thing that would make anyone say otherwise.

That, or an allergic reaction to horrible writing. I like the creativity Matt Ward brings to the rules, but he seriously needs to get someone else to write his fluff pieces.

That said, Draigo may be the very best of the Grey Knights - and by extension the very best that the Imperium has to offer - but Abaddon is still Abaddon.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm onto you shrike. It can't be a coincidence that every single fight thus far has involved a Wardian character.

Genuinely is, I just pick out random pairings which seem (to my relatively limited knowledge of them) fairly even, and ATM I'm starting with the more powerful characters... It's just Ward's always the guy to make those characters, is all

Void__Dragon wrote:People are just going to vote against the Ward-penned characters because of the stigma against Ward.

Ghazghkull has drawn against Calgar, and the swarmlord's voters had some pretty good reasons for winning.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And then ALL his attacks bounce of Abaddon's 2+ save, is that not right?

This is a fluff comparison, not a gameplay comparison.

Think about Draigo achievements.
Best daemon fighter in a chapter of super daemon fighters I good at killing....daemons(!)

This non-sequiter always makes its way into Grey Knight debates, but it is inaccurate, They are particularly capable at slaying Daemons, yes, but Daemon Primarchs like Angron have shown themselves to be functionally immune to the Aigis. It required many Grey Knights combining their powers to wound him enough to banish him. Draigo defeated Mortarion alone and unaided, and more importantly, he physically overpowered him. That makes Draigo physically many times stronger than Abaddon.

He Burned down a forest with fire...which grew back the next day.

No it didn't.

"He unleashed sanctified fire amongst the writhing jungle of Nurgle's Domain, [b]and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the screaming of daemonic vegetation."
- Grey Knight codex, page 39

Smashed a part of the inevitable fortress, which again grew back next day

Prove it grew back in a day.

Nevertheless, smashing the Inevitable City is frankly the only feat Draigo needs to prove he kills Abaddon. Who has not shown any particular defense to psychic powers of that magnitude.

and solving the Labyrinth, the main defence is using memories and hopes to stop you. Draigo doesn't have any memories

Yes he does, don't be silly. He doesn't have any memory of his life before being a Grey Knight. That is like ten years out of hundreds.

and has no hopes other then killing daemons, that's as much of an accomplishment as completing a rubric cube with the instructions in front of you.

Interesting, one would assume he would hope to be able to leave the Warp.

Yeah, not great when you think of it like that. Not to mention its heavily implied he is now slaanesh's Bitch so in the end, Its all a joke because Draigo isn't AP 2.

Indeed, it isn't great when you ignore or lie about the fluff to try and prove your point.

It is not implied he is Slaanesh's bitch, I've already disproved that.

Draigo being AP3 is the result of an edition change, which is nice, but woefully irrelevant.

Anyway, I think I've won this fight. Draigo wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgjensen wrote:

That, or an allergic reaction to horrible writing. I like the creativity Matt Ward brings to the rules, but he seriously needs to get someone else to write his fluff pieces.

That said, Draigo may be the very best of the Grey Knights - and by extension the very best that the Imperium has to offer - but Abaddon is still Abaddon.

It is horrible writing, which is why he is that powerful.

Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

I've not read much on Abaddon, but he has lived over 10 millennia of being the largest threat to the imperium, surviving that long must take some doing (even if most of it was spent in the warp).

Plus, I think the 13 black crusades and the gothic war count as fights.

Oh sure, he is a pretty powerful combatant by Marine standards, but he is being elevated onto some pedestal of unbeatability in this thread for no reason I can fathom.

Eldrad kicked his ass, and didn't need psychic powers to do it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh sure, he is a pretty powerful combatant by Marine standards, but he is being elevated onto some pedestal of unbeatability in this thread for no reason I can fathom.

Eldrad kicked his ass, and didn't need psychic powers to do it.

Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive, and the biggest threat to the imperium to date. I thought him facing Ward's chaos-killing wet dream would be an interesting match. (For the record, I have no idea who I think would win)

 shrike wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

I've not read much on Abaddon, but he has lived over 10 millennia of being the largest threat to the imperium, surviving that long must take some doing (even if most of it was spent in the warp).

Plus, I think the 13 black crusades and the gothic war count as fights.

It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

And yeah, Abaddon was made a fool of by Eldrad. His army was *obliterated*, nearly all of his chosen *slaughtered* and he himself was inches away from death. If Eldrad pushed his spear a little forward Abaddon would be a corpse now.

Draigo whoops his ass. His fluff is undeniably the most over the top in all of 40k. I'd have to agree with pretty much everything Void_Dragon has said.

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

 Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

"Although his ultimate victory has thus far been prevented, the High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago. Should Abaddon's armies triumph, the floodgates will be open and a never ending tide of Chaos will pour out of the Eye of Terror to despoil the Imperium, and perhaps once again strike at the most prized of worlds - Terra itself."

- Lexicanum's entry on Abaddon the Despoiler

Basically, their situation is kinda like the ork's- if someone charismatic and powerful enough steps forward to unite them, the Imperium would be thoroughly screwed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And then ALL his attacks bounce of Abaddon's 2+ save, is that not right?

This is a fluff comparison, not a gameplay comparison.

Think about Draigo achievements.
Best daemon fighter in a chapter of super daemon fighters I good at killing....daemons(!)

This non-sequiter always makes its way into Grey Knight debates, but it is inaccurate, They are particularly capable at slaying Daemons, yes, but Daemon Primarchs like Angron have shown themselves to be functionally immune to the Aigis. It required many Grey Knights combining their powers to wound him enough to banish him. Draigo defeated Mortarion alone and unaided, and more importantly, he physically overpowered him. That makes Draigo physically many times stronger than Abaddon.

He Burned down a forest with fire...which grew back the next day.

No it didn't.

"He unleashed sanctified fire amongst the writhing jungle of Nurgle's Domain, [b]and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the screaming of daemonic vegetation."
- Grey Knight codex, page 39

Smashed a part of the inevitable fortress, which again grew back next day

Prove it grew back in a day.

Nevertheless, smashing the Inevitable City is frankly the only feat Draigo needs to prove he kills Abaddon. Who has not shown any particular defense to psychic powers of that magnitude.

and solving the Labyrinth, the main defence is using memories and hopes to stop you. Draigo doesn't have any memories

Yes he does, don't be silly. He doesn't have any memory of his life before being a Grey Knight. That is like ten years out of hundreds.

and has no hopes other then killing daemons, that's as much of an accomplishment as completing a rubric cube with the instructions in front of you.

Interesting, one would assume he would hope to be able to leave the Warp.

Yeah, not great when you think of it like that. Not to mention its heavily implied he is now slaanesh's Bitch so in the end, Its all a joke because Draigo isn't AP 2.

Indeed, it isn't great when you ignore or lie about the fluff to try and prove your point.

It is not implied he is Slaanesh's bitch, I've already disproved that.

Draigo being AP3 is the result of an edition change, which is nice, but woefully irrelevant.

Anyway, I think I've won this fight. Draigo wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgjensen wrote:

That, or an allergic reaction to horrible writing. I like the creativity Matt Ward brings to the rules, but he seriously needs to get someone else to write his fluff pieces.

That said, Draigo may be the very best of the Grey Knights - and by extension the very best that the Imperium has to offer - but Abaddon is still Abaddon.

It is horrible writing, which is why he is that powerful.

Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

gak just got serious.

But I'd say IF Mortarion was only a Primarch, instead of a daemon primarch, Mortarion would of whooped his Grey ass, any primarch would.. Grey knights have an unfair advantage vs. Daemonkind, just there presence acts to hurt them. Its like saying an exterminator is amazing because he kills bugs. Apart from daemons the only stuff I've read him killing is plague marines and zombies.

Maybe the within a day part was overestimating it, but has he done any lasting damage to them? The forest regrew from the ashes and the fortress rebuilt itself brick by brick.*states this in the Wiki http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo* As stated in the Grey knight codex the Grey knights are incorruptible and have mental fortitude, so we can very safely assume that the Labyrinth held little difficulty for Draigo.

Interesting, for one apparently so well versed you seemed to of missed a bit unless its in the wiki and not GK book. ''but the Grey Knight would accept no boon offered by a daemonic agent of the Master of Sorcery'' So we can also assume he would not fall for a trick to take him home unless he found it himself.

Oh, and please enlighten me as what makes you 100% sure that slaanesh's knight in grey armour isn't Draigo. Because it sure looks to me like that's what it is inferring, that's why there is a humorous picture....

Your move void-Dragon, your move....

 shrike wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

"Although his ultimate victory has thus far been prevented, the High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago. Should Abaddon's armies triumph, the floodgates will be open and a never ending tide of Chaos will pour out of the Eye of Terror to despoil the Imperium, and perhaps once again strike at the most prized of worlds - Terra itself."

- Lexicanum's entry on Abaddon the Despoiler

Basically, their situation is kinda like the ork's- if someone charismatic and powerful enough steps forward to unite them, the Imperium would be thoroughly screwed.

Except abaddon did lead his legions out, and lost hilariously in space to the point that the Imperium has near total space supremacy everywhere it matters.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Calgar slaughters.

Pretty much every codex these days has something that is said to have ripped uP an Eldar Avatar!

It'd be close, but Ghazkull, mainly because I don't like the Smurf Daddy

Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

"Although his ultimate victory has thus far been prevented, the High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago. Should Abaddon's armies triumph, the floodgates will be open and a never ending tide of Chaos will pour out of the Eye of Terror to despoil the Imperium, and perhaps once again strike at the most prized of worlds - Terra itself."

- Lexicanum's entry on Abaddon the Despoiler

Basically, their situation is kinda like the ork's- if someone charismatic and powerful enough steps forward to unite them, the Imperium would be thoroughly screwed.

Except abaddon did lead his legions out, and lost hilariously in space to the point that the Imperium has near total space supremacy everywhere it matters.

Yes, but that was only the black legion and probably a few other groups- if all of chaos, cultists, marines, daemons and all, united under one leader, it would be a pretty damned close-fought thing.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
gak just got serious.

I am always and never serious.

But I'd say IF Mortarion was only a Primarch, instead of a daemon primarch, Mortarion would of whooped his Grey ass, any primarch would.. Grey knights have an unfair advantage vs. Daemonkind, just there presence acts to hurt them. Its like saying an exterminator is amazing because he kills bugs. Apart from daemons the only stuff I've read him killing is plague marines and zombies.

Perhaps, but Angron, hit by the Aigis of 100 Grey Knights, was not weakened much, if at all, nor were his Bloodthirster bodyguards. He was still able to slaughter scores of Grey Knights casually. It required a focused psychic blast to weaken him enough to land the killing blow.

Draigo was the only Grey Knight present, and see, the fight as described consists of Draigo cutting through Mortarion's bodyguard, throwing the Daemon Primarch to the ground, and holding him there. That is a level of physical might Abaddon has never displayed.

Maybe the within a day part was overestimating it, but has he done any lasting damage to them? The forest regrew from the ashes and the fortress rebuilt itself brick by brick.*states this in the Wiki http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo* As stated in the Grey knight codex the Grey knights are incorruptible and have mental fortitude, so we can very safely assume that the Labyrinth held little difficulty for Draigo.

Is any of this really relevant? No... I'd say not. Your red herrings have no sway over me.

Abaddon won't grow back once Draigo burns him to ash or tears him to pieces.

Interesting, for one apparently so well versed you seemed to of missed a bit unless its in the wiki and not GK book. ''but the Grey Knight would accept no boon offered by a daemonic agent of the Master of Sorcery'' So we can also assume he would not fall for a trick to take him home unless he found it himself.

Ah, and this would be a strawman. I said that he likely hopes to escape the Warp. That doesn't equate to "He hopes for and would do anything to escape the Warp". Wanting to escape the Warp does not mean he is stupid enough to trust a Lord of Change's offer to aid in doing so.

Oh, and please enlighten me as what makes you 100% sure that slaanesh's knight in grey armour isn't Draigo. Because it sure looks to me like that's what it is inferring, that's why there is a humorous picture....

There is a "humorous picture" because 4chan is full of stupid people.



Does that look like Tactical Dreadnought Armour to you?

Either way, it is a moot point, for two reasons.

A. You don't have empirical evidence of it being Draigo.

B. Even if Draigo is Slaanesh's bitch, he would still steamroll Abaddon.

Your move void-Dragon, your move....

Oh please, you think you can handle a game of wits with the great Void__Dragon (Proper spelling)? You were never a player. My magnificence transcends comprehension.

You think that's air you're breathing?

Calgar beats Ghazghkuull by their actual showings, to be perfectly blunt.

Ghaz's only wins of note are against Yarrick and Belial.

Calgar ripped an Avatar of Khaine in half.

This would be a cool death match to witness. I'm pretty sure Calgar will win but I hope Ghazghkuull will win by some miracle.

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Oh please, you think you can handle a game of wits with the great Void__Dragon (Proper spelling)? You were never a player. My magnificence transcends comprehension.

Holy gak you just got Tzeench'd

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

well im just saying. He is technically still alive... kind of.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

well im just saying. He is technically still alive... kind of.

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

well im just saying. He is technically still alive... kind of.

Hey I'm just saying I don't want to piss off 10+ tonnes of angry space wolf. If that kinda thing floats your boat that's fine with me, just sail it the other way so I'm not in the splash zone, I just got my good sweat pants on.

Interesting question; would Draigo be able to accomplish the same things in realspace as he does in the Warp?

Don't get me wrong, he accomplishes a lot of really impressive stuff in realspace, but it strikes me that a lot of his grander achievements take place in imagination land where "anything is possible" and power waxes and wanes like the tides.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

Magnus wasn't at full strength.

Battle of the Fang explicitly notes that his power was already waning in the materium before Greyloc and Bjorn ever ambushed him.

Also, that fight was terrible. It's a shame because I actually liked the book until the final fight.

Not once, not twice, but three times Magnus is like "Ohwait lol I'm a Primarch", and proceeds to easily slaughter the foes that were laying into him before. No seriously, the narrative explicitly says that Magnus, while taking a beating, suddenly "remembers" that he is in fact, way too powerful to be getting his ass kicked like this, and then crushes his foes. Including Bjorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xyptc wrote:
Interesting question; would Draigo be able to accomplish the same things in realspace as he does in the Warp?

Don't get me wrong, he accomplishes a lot of really impressive stuff in realspace, but it strikes me that a lot of his grander achievements take place in imagination land where "anything is possible" and power waxes and wanes like the tides.

This actually is a fairly good question, and one which the fluff does not really address.

Personally, I like to think of Draigo as a "fixed point" in the Warp, and anomaly that is practically Lovecraftian to the forces of Chaos due to the stability it imposes on the Materium. But that is just my personal fanwank.

At least yours is better then the one Matt Ward had at the time of Draigo's conception xD

Fourth deathmatch:
Bjorn the fellhanded versus Old one eye!

Old one eye. He only has one eye, but he'll eat up a shrivelled up corpse any day.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Old one eye. He only has one eye, but he'll eat up a shrivelled up corpse any day.

I never thought you, Tyranid horde, would side with old one eye...

Bjorn was slaughtering his enemies back when old one eye was biomass, even with the whole monstrous creature vs vehicle thing I'm sure Bjorn would win through sheer determination.

Bjorn would defeat Old One Eye.

He fought against Magnus. He was the only being to do so that survived in Battle of the Fang.

Hmm before fine cast they made equally good paperweights.

sorry guys, I've been busy with exams, so quick one off the top of my head:
Dante vs Lysander!

Probably Dante.

He's a legendary warrior, considered one of the greatest combatants not just of recent times, but of all time.

I don't have my blood angel's codex on me, but just out of interest, who is actually older? Because I think Dante's meant to be the oldest non-dreadnought loyalist marine alive, but Lysander spent ages in the warp, so does that make him older?

Even Lysander can't recall a time Dante was not chapter master of the Blood Angels.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Even Lysander can't recall a time Dante was not chapter master of the Blood Angels.

Yep.

Dante wins.

I envision it as Lysander being too resillient for Dante to finish off. Between the sheer bulk and tenacity of Lysander and his ridiculous wargear, I'd say the fight would be long and drawn out but probably end with Dante catching a Vortex Grenade with his chin and disappearing into the void.

I'd imagine it'd go down something like this:
Dante jump packs over, tries a shot with his melta pistol, Lysander blocks with his shield.
Lysander swings with his hammer, Dante dodges, swings his axe, lysander blocks.
This goes on for a while until Dante gets under his guard and wounds him, maybe brings him to one knee.
Lysander drags himself up, swings at Dante, who blocks with his axe. He goes reeling, and either jump packs away or Lysander crushes him with a second blow.

I don't care who you are, if you take a solid hit with that hammer, you're screwed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

Magnus wasn't at full strength.

Battle of the Fang explicitly notes that his power was already waning in the materium before Greyloc and Bjorn ever ambushed him.

Also, that fight was terrible. It's a shame because I actually liked the book until the final fight.

Not once, not twice, but three times Magnus is like "Ohwait lol I'm a Primarch", and proceeds to easily slaughter the foes that were laying into him before. No seriously, the narrative explicitly says that Magnus, while taking a beating, suddenly "remembers" that he is in fact, way too powerful to be getting his ass kicked like this, and then crushes his foes. Including Bjorn.

yeah the end was just bad writing.
As for Dante v Lydsander, Dante. He doesn't die until his fate is up. dude is 1100 years old, I doubt his destiny was to die fighting another faithful servant.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
As for Dante v Lydsander, Dante. He doesn't die until his fate is up. dude is 1100 years old, I doubt his destiny was to die fighting another faithful servant.

Lysander was rolling around in the warp for a thousand years, got captured by (IIRC) iron warriors, then gets tortured and fought his way through a city with no armour or weapons, then escapes on a shuttle to run back to imperial held worlds. I don't think he'd die until his fate is up either

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
As for Dante v Lydsander, Dante. He doesn't die until his fate is up. dude is 1100 years old, I doubt his destiny was to die fighting another faithful servant.

Lysander was rolling around in the warp for a thousand years, got captured by (IIRC) iron warriors, then gets tortured and fought his way through a city with no armour or weapons, then escapes on a shuttle to run back to imperial held worlds. I don't think he'd die until his fate is up either

That was by pure will. Dante had been near-killed and presumed dead on a multitude of occasions, pointing to not being allowed to die due to a destiny. Plus he's been kicking just as long as Lysander, without having to hide in the warp.

text removed.
reds8n

 DarthMarko wrote:

I laughed so hard on this....Stop using fanboy drugs
3 times he was kicked back in the warp...
1 - Russ broke his back and throw him into the mud
2 - Ragnar used him as a target practice
3 - Bjorn pummeled him after he attacked UNDEFENDED FORT AND FAILED
4 - They also kicked the gak out of him on Garm

Magnus can only crush himself....weakling...I'm just waiting for Ahriman to kick him too...
AND damn this childish excuses, every time SW kick cyclops it's always something....pretty annoying

I'm not entirely sure I should even address your thoughtless trolling, but I'll give it a shot, if only for the benefit of those that might misguidedly believe the unfacts you speak of.

First of all, any instance not related to Magnus' foray into the Fang is entirely irrelevant to what I said, brought up by you for two reasons:

A. Trolling.

B. You can't stand the idea of anyone saying anything bad about a Space Wolf novel.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way... I never denied Magnus has never been banished to the Warp, so your cry of him being banished "three times" is, once more, irrelevant.

As for the specific instances:

1. After Tzeentch allowed Russ to, yes. It is glaringly obvious that Magnus had the advantage most of the fight.

2. Can't really comment on, though thankfully since most regard the Space Wolf novels as rightly bad, no one really pays attention to that.

3. Ah yes, something actually on topic.

First of all: Bjorn did not banish him. Actually, Magnus defeated all of his opponents. But I'll get to refuting that later.

Firstly, Magnus was weakened:

"Magnus turned away. In the flickering light of the sanctum, Temekh could sense the raw power bleeding from his image. So much, it was hard to contain. Since casting aside his mortal flesh, the primarch required colossal amounts of energy merely to exist on the physical plane. It was like trying to squeeze a sun in a wineglass."
- page 433

Even before setting foot on the Fang, Magnus was bleeding power.

"Magnus stood in the Fangthane. His mantle ran with flames, slowly dying out as the glory of his ascent receded."
- page 454

Continues to bleed power, after his first battle in the Fang.

Now then... Using all caps does not make your argument stronger, if anything it makes it worse.

Magnus' assault on the Fang had crushed the resistance of the forces there. The only reason the Fang still stands is because a single ship managed to make it to the rest of the chapter in time, allowing them to bolster the few remaining troops of that Great Company (Seriously, there were like 20. Magnus on the other hand still had hundreds of Marines left).

As for why it was terrible, there are a few reasons. There is the general plot armour shenanigans of 40k. It is indeed strange how, despite being able to telekinetically paralyze 300 Space Wolves (Including 12 Rune Priests and the Great Wolf) with the merest fraction of his power (He was so diminished there that he could but appear as a frail, shorter than average mortal man) on Gangava, he is unable to do so to three Marines, a Rune Priest (Albeit the strongest one at the time), and Bjorn with much greater power at his disposal. It is similarly strange that Magnus could punch through Tactical Dreadnought Armour and actual Dreadnoughts like tissue paper, but Ironhelm and Bjorn fared much better for some inexplicable reason. But I could have forgiven plot armour.

But no... We got this:

"The onslaught had been horrendous, the worst he had endured in a thousand years, but his strength was near-infinite and his guile scarcely less so. He straightened, towering over his assailants, and remembered what power lay within his gauntlet-grasp."
- page 474

He then proceeds to punch a Wolf Guard's skull in, torture Sturmhjhart with psyflame before exploding him with a gesture, slapped the remaining Wolf Guard so hard he snapped his spine, and then proceeded to push Greyloc to the ground and rip both his hearts out while Bjorn shot plasma blast after plasma blast at him (Also destroying a Thunderhawk in the process).

Then, he fights Bjorn. They go back and forth, Bjorn firing point blank plasma cannon shots at him and swiping at him with his DCCW. Magnus crushes the cannon as Bjorn fires it, and then...

"It was then that Magnus, weary, wounded and burned as he was, seemed to remember his dread authority at last. He let fly with a broken hand, and fluorescent warp-energy spat from his outstretched fingers. Bjorn's claw crumbpled, withering amid a storm of varicoloured madness. The talons flexed wildly, then cracked apart."
- page 480

Bjorn after this is entirely helpless against Magnus, who tears through his armour, renders the machinery useless, and holds him over the edge of the mountain. It's strange, with how easily he could have disarmed him, that he chose not to do it. Oh wait, sorry, he didn't choose, he forgot!

Ironhelm proceeds to save Bjorn, leaping at Magnus from behind with his power fist, sending all three down the mountain. When Magnus and Ironhelm land, they fight. Or rather, Magnus leans against the mountain while Ironhelm punches the gak out of him. But then...

"But then, just as before, he began to remember himself. From somewhere deep within, a new flame kindled."
- page 486

Ah yes, Magnus suddenly remembers "Oh wait I'm a Primarch" again. He proceeds to easily catch Ironhelm's power fist in one hand and destroy it, and clocks him in the jaw, and then proceeds to basically torture and dismember him with psyflame, before punching him again, killing him.

So yes, the fights were terrible. Not only did they rely on plot armour that ignored the opponent's powers, but they actually had a half-assed idiotic excuse; that Magnus "forgot" how powerful he was.

So yes, he did, in fact, crush Greyloc and his retinue, Sturmhjart, Bjorn, and Ironhelm, once he remembered his power. Deal with it.

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone who immaturely and impotently personally attacked me doesn't refer to me or my posts as "childish" within the same posts. Not because you doing so hurt my feelings mind you, but because I am a good samaritan, and it does pain me to see people defeat their own posts and arguments in ironic ways.

Void___Dragon, you'll have to forgive Magnus. He's getting on a bit, you know... memory's not what it used to be. Besides, you know how many important things require his time and attention these days? Guy's got more on his plate than a cocktail waitress at Nurgle's last party.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I laughed so hard on this....Stop using fanboy drugs

A. Trolling.

B. You can't stand the idea of anyone saying anything bad about a Space Wolf novel.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way... I never denied Magnus has never been banished to the Warp, so your cry of him being banished "three times" is, once more, irrelevant.

As for the specific instances:

1. After Tzeentch allowed Russ to, yes. It is glaringly obvious that Magnus had the advantage most of the fight.

2. Can't really comment on, though thankfully since most regard the Space Wolf novels as rightly bad, no one really pays attention to that.

3. Ah yes, something actually on topic.

First of all: Bjorn did not banish him. Actually, Magnus defeated all of his opponents. But I'll get to refuting that later.

Firstly, Magnus was weakened:

"Magnus turned away. In the flickering light of the sanctum, Temekh could sense the raw power bleeding from his image. So much, it was hard to contain. Since casting aside his mortal flesh, the primarch required colossal amounts of energy merely to exist on the physical plane. It was like trying to squeeze a sun in a wineglass."
- page 433

Even before setting foot on the Fang, Magnus was bleeding power.

"Magnus stood in the Fangthane. His mantle ran with flames, slowly dying out as the glory of his ascent receded."
- page 454

Continues to bleed power, after his first battle in the Fang.

Now then... Using all caps does not make your argument stronger, if anything it makes it worse.

Magnus' assault on the Fang had crushed the resistance of the forces there. The only reason the Fang still stands is because a single ship managed to make it to the rest of the chapter in time, allowing them to bolster the few remaining troops of that Great Company (Seriously, there were like 20. Magnus on the other hand still had hundreds of Marines left).

As for why it was terrible, there are a few reasons. There is the general plot armour shenanigans of 40k. It is indeed strange how, despite being able to telekinetically paralyze 300 Space Wolves (Including 12 Rune Priests and the Great Wolf) with the merest fraction of his power (He was so diminished there that he could but appear as a frail, shorter than average mortal man) on Gangava, he is unable to do so to three Marines, a Rune Priest (Albeit the strongest one at the time), and Bjorn with much greater power at his disposal. It is similarly strange that Magnus could punch through Tactical Dreadnought Armour and actual Dreadnoughts like tissue paper, but Ironhelm and Bjorn fared much better for some inexplicable reason. But I could have forgiven plot armour.

But no... We got this:

"The onslaught had been horrendous, the worst he had endured in a thousand years, but his strength was near-infinite and his guile scarcely less so. He straightened, towering over his assailants, and remembered what power lay within his gauntlet-grasp."
- page 474

He then proceeds to punch a Wolf Guard's skull in, torture Sturmhjhart with psyflame before exploding him with a gesture, slapped the remaining Wolf Guard so hard he snapped his spine, and then proceeded to push Greyloc to the ground and rip both his hearts out while Bjorn shot plasma blast after plasma blast at him (Also destroying a Thunderhawk in the process).

Then, he fights Bjorn. They go back and forth, Bjorn firing point blank plasma cannon shots at him and swiping at him with his DCCW. Magnus crushes the cannon as Bjorn fires it, and then...

"It was then that Magnus, weary, wounded and burned as he was, seemed to remember his dread authority at last. He let fly with a broken hand, and fluorescent warp-energy spat from his outstretched fingers. Bjorn's claw crumbpled, withering amid a storm of varicoloured madness. The talons flexed wildly, then cracked apart."
- page 480

Bjorn after this is entirely helpless against Magnus, who tears through his armour, renders the machinery useless, and holds him over the edge of the mountain. It's strange, with how easily he could have disarmed him, that he chose not to do it. Oh wait, sorry, he didn't choose, he forgot!

Ironhelm proceeds to save Bjorn, leaping at Magnus from behind with his power fist, sending all three down the mountain. When Magnus and Ironhelm land, they fight. Or rather, Magnus leans against the mountain while Ironhelm punches the gak out of him. But then...

"But then, just as before, he began to remember himself. From somewhere deep within, a new flame kindled."
- page 486

Ah yes, Magnus suddenly remembers "Oh wait I'm a Primarch" again. He proceeds to easily catch Ironhelm's power fist in one hand and destroy it, and clocks him in the jaw, and then proceeds to basically torture and dismember him with psyflame, before punching him again, killing him.

So yes, the fights were terrible. Not only did they rely on plot armour that ignored the opponent's powers, but they actually had a half-assed idiotic excuse; that Magnus "forgot" how powerful he was.

So yes, he did, in fact, crush Greyloc and his retinue, Sturmhjart, Bjorn, and Ironhelm, once he remembered his power. Deal with it.

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone who immaturely and impotently personally attacked me doesn't refer to me or my posts as "childish" within the same posts. Not because you doing so hurt my feelings mind you, but because I am a good samaritan, and it does pain me to see people defeat their own posts and arguments in ironic ways.

There is much ImAdeludedmagnusgfanboy POV it really pisses me off big time...I mean really, you sometimes can interpret things as you like but this is plainly stupid.....
Russ broke his back (in the old and in the new fluff ) - FACT, you can write YOUR theories how as much as you want to it doesn't change the fact Russ>Magnus (and this is pretty esablished fluff actually which guys on dakka had told gazilllion times)
Magnus is Ragnar's and Bjorns bitch - FACT - your argument "sw Novels suck is also briliant btw...

Don't drinking so much coke and coffe when posting...

 DarthMarko wrote:
There is much ImAdeludedmagnusgfanboy POV it really pisses me off big time...I mean really, you sometimes can interpret things as you like but this is plainly stupid.....
Russ broke his back (in the old and in the new fluff ) - FACT, you can write YOUR theories how as much as you want to it doesn't change the fact Russ>Magnus (and this is pretty esablished fluff actually which guys on dakka had told gazilllion times)
Magnus is Ragnar's and Bjorns bitch - FACT - your argument "sw Novels suck is also briliant btw...

Don't drinking so much coke and coffe when posting...

Calm down.

Your trolling is really getting out of hand these days Marko. You used to be more subtle, and far less irritable.

Magnus was beating Leman Russ, until a Chaos God aided the Wolf King. Also, Lorgar confirms that Magnus did not fight full-heartedly, and would have crushed Leman Russ if he went all-out.

Bjorn was nearly killed by a weakened Magnus though.

I actually have an argument though, supported by quotes from the novel.

Oh, and I forgot to address Garm: Leman Russ actually had to be saved by a Space Wolf from Magnus. Said Space Wolf sacrificed his life.

Abaddon would beat Draigo. Draigo defeated Mortarion because his anti-Daemon stuff is jacked up to 11. Abaddon doesn't have to fight him with Drach'nyen, the Claw of Horus was strong enough to completely ignore the armour of and then maim the GOD-EMPEROR OF MANKIND. Fluff-wise I'm pretty comfortable, as a Loyalist fanboy, to say that there's no marine (possibly except Bjorn if we count him) that would stand a fair chance against Abaddon. He's just too skilled and too powered-up.

EDIT: What is it with Thousand Sons and Space Wolves fans and never being able to have a civil argument? I mean, there's plenty of other "rival" factions that don't whine at each other, but every time we get Thousand Sons and Space Wolves in the same thread fecal matter hits the air-circulation unit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Abaddon would beat Draigo. Draigo defeated Mortarion because his anti-Daemon stuff is jacked up to 11.

He defeated Mortarion because he was strong enough to throw a Primarch to the ground and scribble on him.

Abaddon doesn't have to fight him with Drach'nyen, the Claw of Horus was strong enough to completely ignore the armour of and then maim the GOD-EMPEROR OF MANKIND.

There was sort of a Primarch on the other side of that claw you know. His name was Horus, most powerful Chaos Lord to have ever lived.

Fluff-wise I'm pretty comfortable, as a Loyalist fanboy, to say that there's no marine (possibly except Bjorn if we count him) that would stand a fair chance against Abaddon. He's just too skilled and too powered-up.

He was beaten up by Eldrad in melee.

I mean, he's still very powerful, but nowhere near the pinnacle of Marine prowess that people tout him as.

All of these stories are just so exciting! Makes me want to read the books.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
EDIT: What is it with Thousand Sons and Space Wolves fans and never being able to have a civil argument? I mean, there's plenty of other "rival" factions that don't whine at each other, but every time we get Thousand Sons and Space Wolves in the same thread fecal matter hits the air-circulation unit.

Ask the guy who attacked me unprovoked. / shrugs

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Abaddon would beat Draigo. Draigo defeated Mortarion because his anti-Daemon stuff is jacked up to 11.

He defeated Mortarion because he was strong enough to throw a Primarch to the ground and scribble on him.

And because Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch and thus weakened by the mere presence of a normal, non-Justicar Grey Knight, nevermind the massive Grey Knight presence in the battle, not to mention the fact that he was fresh from carving up the previous Supreme Grand Master. Draigo won because he had more kryptonite than God, not because he's physically stronger than Mortarion.

Just to draw a comparison, Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex went one-on-one melee with An'ggrath the Unbound (who'd probably rank around Daemon Primarch in power, what with being Lord of Bloodthirsters and Guardian of the Throne of Skulls and all...) and won. Barely. By using An'ggrath's True Name and an impossibly powerful artifact Force Weapon. It's more or less the same thing, lots and lots of specialised gear and training to kill Daemons means you're going to be damn good at killing Daemons, but you'd still be a strong-ish Chapter Master against other marines, and only because of the psychic potential of the Grey Knights.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

There was sort of a Primarch on the other side of that claw you know. His name was Horus, most powerful Chaos Lord to have ever lived.

The point was that Abaddon wouldn't have to use Drach'nyen, the only Daemonic about Abaddon, to carve Draigo a new one.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Fluff-wise I'm pretty comfortable, as a Loyalist fanboy, to say that there's no marine (possibly except Bjorn if we count him) that would stand a fair chance against Abaddon. He's just too skilled and too powered-up.

He was beaten up by Eldrad in melee.

I mean, he's still very powerful, but nowhere near the pinnacle of Marine prowess that people tout him as.

Eldrad, as in the most powerful Farseer since... actually, that's a point (and I'm genuinely curious), is there ever a mention of a Farseer more powerful than Eldrad? I'm assuming there'd be some of them around pre-fall, but still...

I'd be interested on hearing how Huron Blackheart rates against the likes of Calgar, Grimnar, Helbrecht, Azrael etc

 Eetion wrote:
I'd be interested on hearing how Huron Blackheart rates against the likes of Calgar, Grimnar, Helbrecht, Azrael etc

noted

 Eetion wrote:
I'd be interested on hearing how Huron Blackheart rates against the likes of Calgar, Grimnar, Helbrecht, Azrael etc

I'd say that the answer's "he doesn't". Calgar has impossibly well-crafted armour and weapons on top of his skill, Grimnar's got way more experience, Helbrecht is the Chapter Master of a Chapter that doesn't do anything outside close combat and Azrael... I've got no clue there actually. I can't find anything about Azrael being anything other than an "average" Chapter Master, other than the Sword of Secrets.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And because Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch and thus weakened by the mere presence of a normal, non-Justicar Grey Knight, nevermind the massive Grey Knight presence in the battle, not to mention the fact that he was fresh from carving up the previous Supreme Grand Master. Draigo won because he had more kryptonite than God, not because he's physically stronger than Mortarion.

The Aegis of a hundred Grey Knights could not so much as slow Angron down. Nor could it weaken the 12 Bloodthirsters present. This evidence, along with the fact that no weakening is taking place, must make us conclude that Mortarion was at full strength.

Also, what massive Grey Knight presence in the battle? He struck Mortarion down "alone and unaided". He had no help from other Grey Knights.

Stop applying context to the fight where there is none. He threw him to the ground and dominated him.

Just to draw a comparison, Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex went one-on-one melee with An'ggrath the Unbound (who'd probably rank around Daemon Primarch in power, what with being Lord of Bloodthirsters and Guardian of the Throne of Skulls and all...) and won. Barely. By using An'ggrath's True Name and an impossibly powerful artifact Force Weapon. It's more or less the same thing, lots and lots of specialised gear and training to kill Daemons means you're going to be damn good at killing Daemons, but you'd still be a strong-ish Chapter Master against other marines, and only because of the psychic potential of the Grey Knights.

It is not "more or less the same thing".

Draigo's feats of destroying the Inevitable City and burning down the Garden of Nurgle show us he could easily do the same to Abaddon.

The point was that Abaddon wouldn't have to use Drach'nyen, the only Daemonic about Abaddon, to carve Draigo a new one.

Well actually he'd basically need a Blackstone Fortress to fight Draigo. Anything less and Kaldor tears him to pieces with his bare hands.

Eldrad, as in the most powerful Farseer since... actually, that's a point (and I'm genuinely curious), is there ever a mention of a Farseer more powerful than Eldrad? I'm assuming there'd be some of them around pre-fall, but still...

Nothing about being the mightiest Farseer we know of makes Eldrad a more effective beatstick.

He romped Abaddon not with psychic powers, but in melee.

Kaldor Draigo, bare-knuckle brawler of Bloodthirsters, crushes Abaddon. And he does it easily.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I'd be interested on hearing how Huron Blackheart rates against the likes of Calgar, Grimnar, Helbrecht, Azrael etc

I'd say that the answer's "he doesn't". Calgar has impossibly well-crafted armour and weapons on top of his skill, Grimnar's got way more experience, Helbrecht is the Chapter Master of a Chapter that doesn't do anything outside close combat and Azrael... I've got no clue there actually. I can't find anything about Azrael being anything other than an "average" Chapter Master, other than the Sword of Secrets.

And Huron is a giant of an Astartes that seems to be more machine than man with the Tyrants Claw and the Hamadrya whispering his enemies intentions to him. I'd give him more credit than that. In effect Huron has an element of precognition to take into account when you consider him.

Who has Huron fought and beaten?

Lack of evidence does not equal lack of capability.
Who has beaten him?

Chaos warriors don't follow mediocre leaders.

The prospect of a fight with Grand Master Mordrak led him to flee.

I don't doubt that Huron is a very powerful warrior, but his lack of showings would make putting him on the same pedestal as Calgar, Dante, or Logan Grimnar a rather bold claim.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And because Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch and thus weakened by the mere presence of a normal, non-Justicar Grey Knight, nevermind the massive Grey Knight presence in the battle, not to mention the fact that he was fresh from carving up the previous Supreme Grand Master. Draigo won because he had more kryptonite than God, not because he's physically stronger than Mortarion.

The Aegis of a hundred Grey Knights could not so much as slow Angron down. Nor could it weaken the 12 Bloodthirsters present. This evidence, along with the fact that no weakening is taking place, must make us conclude that Mortarion was at full strength.

Also, what massive Grey Knight presence in the battle? He struck Mortarion down "alone and unaided". He had no help from other Grey Knights.

Stop applying context to the fight where there is none. He threw him to the ground and dominated him.

Stop ignoring context when it's there. Mortarion had just killed the previous Supreme Grand Master who, being Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, would've been a pretty dangerous adversary in the first place. Secondly, Draigo, then a Grand Master, was elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master, which the Codex tells us can only happen if all the Grand Masters are in agreement. Thus, we can draw the conclusion that all eight Grand Masters, as well as the Supreme Grand Master, we're present, which in turn tells us that the force fighting Mortarion was much more powerful than that which banished Angron, seeing as that was lead by a (in the context) mere Brother-Captain.

Regardless, the Codex only says that Draigo strikes Mortarion to the ground, it doesn't say that he arm-wrestled him into submission. If Hector Rex, a mere human albeit an Inquisitor, can one-on-one Khorne's mightiest servant and win, why is it such an impossibility to accept that Draigo, a Space Marine designed with the sole purpouse of fighting Daemons, could beat Mortarion without breaking previously established fluff?

"Alone and unaided".

You can't contradict what the codex actually claims. Oh, and the codex just says that his elevation to Supreme Grand Master following Gerotinan's death, not that he was elevated right on the field of battle. Oh, and said Brother-Captain was explicitly on the level of "any Grand Master of the Order".

An'ggrath is not Khorne's mightiest servant, you are thinking of Angron. Oh, and Hector Rex is a gene-vat grown freak with physical abilities on par with the Space Marines, just less organs. So he is not a "mere human".

Why do you think I think Kaldor is a lost Primarch? For fun? Generally I use that and the anti-demonic-properbilities to explain stuff.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The prospect of a fight with Grand Master Mordrak led him to flee.

I don't doubt that Huron is a very powerful warrior, but his lack of showings would make putting him on the same pedestal as Calgar, Dante, or Logan Grimnar a rather bold claim.

s not that I'd put him as the best of them. But having the Hamadrya and that element of precognition is a massive advantage. I'd rate it as more useful than the Gauntless of Ultramar or other artifact weapons. It not only gives him an idea of when and where an attack is coming, but just what they will do to block his attacks. He might have a follow up with hos axe ready or if they try to break the distance then a burst from his flames.

That and as I mentioned he is a giant of an Astartes who is more machine than man. Not easy to kill at all.

I stand by opinion that he would give a better showing than he is being credited with.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"Alone and unaided".

You can't contradict what the codex actually claims. Oh, and the codex just says that his elevation to Supreme Grand Master following Gerotinan's death, not that he was elevated right on the field of battle. Oh, and said Brother-Captain was explicitly on the level of "any Grand Master of the Order".

Read the text. Seriously, read it. "Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion" (emphasis mine). My interpretation of "alone and unaided" is Draigo going in, alone, and "killing" (well, banishing) Mortarion on his own. That doesn't mean that there can't be external forces such as the combined Aegis of a force strong enough to include all 8 Grand Masters of the Grey Knights and their Supreme Grand Master weakening Mortarion. If I wrestled an injured boar to the ground and choked it to death (over the top example, I know, but still) I'd still have done it "alone and unaided", because there wasn't anyone actively helping me.

Regardless, as an enemy to the Grey Knights I'd rate Angron higher than Mortarion. Angron's entire schtick is that he, in general, punches people to death better than the other Primarchs. Combined with Khorne's general distaste of psykers and the subsequent protection his favoured Daemons have against psychic powers he makes for a more formidable foe than Mortarion, in my opinion.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


An'ggrath is not Khorne's mightiest servant, you are thinking of Angron. Oh, and Hector Rex is a gene-vat grown freak with physical abilities on par with the Space Marines, just less organs. So he is not a "mere human".

An'ggrath is "Khorne's most favoured servant", "Guardian of the Throne of Skulls", "Lord of Bloodthirsters", whose model is the size of a small Titan. Contrast it to Angron, who when GW made rules for him was more or less "only" a Bloodthirster on steroids. An'ggrath, not Angron, is explicitly Khorne's champion.

Regarding Hector Rex, he doesn't have anti-Daemonic wards inscribed into his skeleton or a psychic presence that causes pain in Daemons. He isn't anathema to Daemons in the same way as a Grey Knight, and he sure as hell isn't on the anti-Daemonic level of a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

 Eetion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The prospect of a fight with Grand Master Mordrak led him to flee.

I don't doubt that Huron is a very powerful warrior, but his lack of showings would make putting him on the same pedestal as Calgar, Dante, or Logan Grimnar a rather bold claim.

s not that I'd put him as the best of them. But having the Hamadrya and that element of precognition is a massive advantage. I'd rate it as more useful than the Gauntless of Ultramar or other artifact weapons. It not only gives him an idea of when and where an attack is coming, but just what they will do to block his attacks. He might have a follow up with hos axe ready or if they try to break the distance then a burst from his flames.

That and as I mentioned he is a giant of an Astartes who is more machine than man. Not easy to kill at all.

I stand by opinion that he would give a better showing than he is being credited with.

Calgar is also more machine than man, having had all his limbs chopped off, Helbrecht has extensive bionic replacements as well, and for every blast of flame from Huron there's a hail of relic bolter shells from Calgar or a melta blast from Dante or Helbrecht.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Read the text. Seriously, read it. "Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion" (emphasis mine).

All right, I'll admit I missed that when I skimmed through both passages.

My interpretation of "alone and unaided" is Draigo going in, alone, and "killing" (well, banishing) Mortarion on his own. That doesn't mean that there can't be external forces such as the combined Aegis of a force strong enough to include all 8 Grand Masters of the Grey Knights and their Supreme Grand Master weakening Mortarion. If I wrestled an injured boar to the ground and choked it to death (over the top example, I know, but still) I'd still have done it "alone and unaided", because there wasn't anyone actively helping me.

Then they would be aiding them, wouldn't they?

That they and their aigis were not mentioned at all forces me not to consider the possibility of their aid.

Not that beating Mortarion is even close to Draigo's greatest feat mind you. Crushing the Inevitable City alone means he has the psychic wazoo to crush Abaddon dead in his armour with a glance.

Regardless, as an enemy to the Grey Knights I'd rate Angron higher than Mortarion. Angron's entire schtick is that he, in general, punches people to death better than the other Primarchs. Combined with Khorne's general distaste of psykers and the subsequent protection his favoured Daemons have against psychic powers he makes for a more formidable foe than Mortarion, in my opinion.

And Mortarion's entire schtick is that he, in general, endures punishment much better than the other Primarchs. Combined with his ascension making Mortarion also a formidable sorcerer, he would prove more endurant against the Aigis than Angron, in my opinion.

An'ggrath is "Khorne's most favoured servant", "Guardian of the Throne of Skulls", "Lord of Bloodthirsters", whose model is the size of a small Titan. Contrast it to Angron, who when GW made rules for him was more or less "only" a Bloodthirster on steroids. An'ggrath, not Angron, is explicitly Khorne's champion.

An'ggrath was punked by bitch!Lorgar. He can pile as many titles above his name as he wants, that doesn't change the fact that Lorgar fethed him up in martial combat, and then proceeded to get his ass handed to him by Corax. Who believed that he didn't stand a chance against Angron in battle. Pre-Daemon, mind you.

Oh, and in the Space Wolves codex, Angron was referred to as "first among the favoured of the Blood God", and his retinue of Bloodthirsters are referred to as the "most terrible of the Blood God's servants, save the Daemon Primarch himself". The Emperor's Gift also portrays Angron as the most powerful of all Khorne's homies, and one of the six mightiest Daemons in existence (Hint: There are six Daemon Primarchs). Oh, and he's explicitly the size of a Warhound Titan, lol.

Regarding Hector Rex, he doesn't have anti-Daemonic wards inscribed into his skeleton or a psychic presence that causes pain in Daemons. He isn't anathema to Daemons in the same way as a Grey Knight, and he sure as hell isn't on the anti-Daemonic level of a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

He has a sword blessed by the psychic might of the Emperor himself, who can banish the mightiest of Daemons with a glance. He himself of course made psychic contact with the Emperor, which increased his already formidable psychic powers. He knew An'ggrath's True Name. Also, he managed to do far better against Angron than a Brother-Captain Grey Knight and his squad of Terminators.

Is he as anti-Daemon awesome as a Grand Master? It's hard to say, to be blunt. His psychic power was demonstrably more anti-Daemon than said BroCap's, shown when they both fought against legions of Bloodthirster's together. Oh, and there is the fact that he almost died against An'ggrath, he only won because the Daemon Lord took the time to pause (When he could have dealt a killing stroke) and roar to the Heavens, calling Khorne to watch him feth this dude up.

Also, Brother-Captain Stern was defeated in single combat by Uruka, a Daemon Prince of lesser status than An'ggrath.

So we can conclude that Rex is comfortably above BroCaps in the Daemon slaying department.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Read the text. Seriously, read it. "Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion" (emphasis mine).

All right, I'll admit I missed that when I skimmed through both passages.

My interpretation of "alone and unaided" is Draigo going in, alone, and "killing" (well, banishing) Mortarion on his own. That doesn't mean that there can't be external forces such as the combined Aegis of a force strong enough to include all 8 Grand Masters of the Grey Knights and their Supreme Grand Master weakening Mortarion. If I wrestled an injured boar to the ground and choked it to death (over the top example, I know, but still) I'd still have done it "alone and unaided", because there wasn't anyone actively helping me.

Then they would be aiding them, wouldn't they?

That they and their aigis were not mentioned at all forces me not to consider the possibility of their aid.

It wouldn't be actively aiding. Regardless, Mortarion had just finished off the previous Supreme Grand Master, which means that Draigo had aid of a sort from that. The Codex contradicts itself, which leads me to the conclusion that what the Codex means with "alone and unaided" is "alone and without anyone actively aiding him".

 Void__Dragon wrote:


And Mortarion's entire schtick is that he, in general, endures punishment much better than the other Primarchs. Combined with his ascension making Mortarion also a formidable sorcerer, he would prove more endurant against the Aigis than Angron, in my opinion.

Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

That they and their aigis were not mentioned at all forces me not to consider the possibility of their aid.

Not that beating Mortarion is even close to Draigo's greatest feat mind you. Crushing the Inevitable City alone means he has the psychic wazoo to crush Abaddon dead in his armour with a glance.

A psyker that's got his entire set of skills geared towards destroying Daemonic enteties will be good at destroying enteties, I don't know why you're surprised. That doesn't mean that those powers will affect non-Daemons at all.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

An'ggrath was punked by bitch!Lorgar. He can pile as many titles above his name as he wants, that doesn't change the fact that Lorgar fethed him up in martial combat, and then proceeded to get his ass handed to him by Corax. Who believed that he didn't stand a chance against Angron in battle. Pre-Daemon, mind you.

Oh, and in the Space Wolves codex, Angron was referred to as "first among the favoured of the Blood God", and his retinue of Bloodthirsters are referred to as the "most terrible of the Blood God's servants, save the Daemon Primarch himself". The Emperor's Gift also portrays Angron as the most powerful of all Khorne's homies, and one of the six mightiest Daemons in existence (Hint: There are six Daemon Primarchs). Oh, and he's explicitly the size of a Warhound Titan, lol.

Angron's Bloodthirsters can't be the most terrible of the Blood God's servants. Both Ka'bandha and, more often, An'ggrath are called "Lord of Bloodthirsters", and IA:A2nd ed explicitly establishes An'ggrath as being the most powerful Bloodthirster ever summoned from the Warp. I guess we can chalk up our disagreement to a lack of consistency in the fluff; as you say, Angron is sometimes portrayed as the greatest of Khorne's servants, whereas other times it's An'ggrath.

On a final note, give Brother-Captain Stern a chance, he lost against friggin' Genghis Khan!

@ Void_Dragon. Abbadon is the chosen of chaos, the vassal of the dark gods, do you think they would let one of their mightiest champions die? (Were it to come to that) they would intervene as they did when the fallen were whisked away from Caliban or when Kharn finally dies at the gates of Terra and even to a lesser extent whenever someone kills lucius the eternal. Also what has Draigo really achieved in the warp but giving a true death to daemons in the warp?