So I love the game of 40k, I like the hobby but what really draws me to it is the game itself and the tactics and planning out your army and trying to make it work seamlessly. I'm not saying just trying to win every game, but trying to figure out cool combos and having fun. That is why I think that the way psychic powers are random in 6th edition is completely dumb. I can't plan an army around "oh hopefully this guy will give me a buff that I need" or "he's cool lets see what I get with him. I want to know what I am getting, and frankly I cannot ever see myself taking a psycher in this game now. This especially sucks because my army of choice is Eldar, and this has almos ruined them for me. Anyone else feel the same way?
Coming from Fantasy first I have no issue with the randomization.
Having said that a lack of a proper psychic phase is disappointing. I'd much prefer that over the freely buff yourself, witchfires are garbage system they have now.
I think randomization, allows them to put some much more powerful Psyker abilties in, than we have seen in the past.
A good example is the Telepathy Tree. Everyone would always choose Invisibility, if they had a choice. If powers were picked, I imagine that power would not exist, or it would be much weaker.
I don't mind rolling for powers. Most trees are pretty good. The only ones that are really full of duds, are Pyro, and the CSM tables, IMO. The rest have some really good, some good, and some ok.
Sure lets let every caster pick their powers, that would really be fair and would not break the game. Randomization is there so people CANNOT do that kind of stuff, its a risk taking a Psyker but then again the whole game is a dice game so you gamble when you take him, and if your banking on a random power for your army then you might want to change some things up.
One of my regular opponents runs an all genestealer tyranid list with broodlords in every squad. He always rolls on the power tree that gives you terrify to make everyone run off the board. It's always amusing when one of the broodlords gets a shooting power they can't use because they have BS 0.
That said, if he ever actually gets the powers he wants and I had 4-5 morale checks coming my way at the start of every turn I might just ragequt
So basically being Tau I don't even bother to read the psychic section.
Sasori wrote: I think randomization, allows them to put some much more powerful Psyker abilties in, than we have seen in the past.
You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.
Peregrine wrote: You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.
Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.
gmaleron wrote: Sure lets let every caster pick their powers, that would really be fair and would not break the game. Randomization is there so people CANNOT do that kind of stuff, its a risk taking a Psyker but then again the whole game is a dice game so you gamble when you take him, and if your banking on a random power for your army then you might want to change some things up.
Not everyone should get to pick powers obviously, but the psionic masters of the galaxy (eldar) damn well should be able to.
I had been excited about the new eldar dex and was going to get back into 40k for the first time since i quit following the rapejob gw gave the nids in the form of their faq back in 5th, but eldar randomly generating powers is so unfluffy i don't even want to.
gmaleron wrote: Sure lets let every caster pick their powers, that would really be fair and would not break the game. Randomization is there so people CANNOT do that kind of stuff, its a risk taking a Psyker but then again the whole game is a dice game so you gamble when you take him, and if your banking on a random power for your army then you might want to change some things up.
Not everyone should get to pick powers obviously, but the psionic masters of the galaxy (eldar) damn well should be able to.
Tzeench Daemons called, they want their schtick back.
Eldar got an improved Farseer for the psionic mastery element. Giving them the cherry on top and letting them pick would be like giving the middle finger to the other dexes.
I'd agree that random powers are not the way to go.
Unlike with any other dice roll in the game, the powers you get can very much slant the balance of power to one side or the other, before any concious choices have been made.
A list of powers that have to be bought at appropriate prices, at least IMO, would make for a more tactical game.
The only reason for random powers I see is that it forces players to find ways to use less than optimal powers at times, making min-maxing a lot harder.
It's quite telling how this discussion always include people saying how their army should be able to pick their powers for one reason or another
At the end of the day, I'd much rather prefer being able to pick powers, either payed for or evenly balanced. Even the Weirdboy is preferable, because you still have some control over it.
Sticking more powerful abilities in there because of randomization is bad - 'cause then you're in a situation that if you roll good on a single roll in the beginning your army gets awesome for the entire game.
Having people choose powers is bad - 'cause there's really awesome powers in there and why would you choose Precognition when you can choose Forewarning or Perfect Timing?
As Eldarain said, having a proper psychic phase would solve things. I don't know fantasy 7th edition or onwards, but in 6th you had an additional check in that powers which were really strong were also more difficult to cast and the mind game with dispels usually allowed the weaker magics to go through unchallenged.
It also meant that, unless you cast Witchfires on one of the very few units with Magic Resistance, Blessings weren't necessarily easier.
You buy psykers as support elements, not necessarily models to build precise tactics around. You can of course guarantee which powers you get by choosing the primaris powers. Random powers with the primaris choice allows the player to vary their tactics and play with new strategies and become generally better at problem solving, rather than just playing exactly the same game again and again and again.
But if you get the wrong stuff on your brood lord or your biker caster doesnt get invisibility , then it is not just him being bad , it could be anything from 300 to 400pts being bad. If that MC without wings doesn't get iron arm and it happens for two or three of them there is no way to change tactics , the same unit has to do the same job for the same points while being worse. At the same time a non psychic power upgrade or unit works always and all the time .
I would agree that random psychic powers largely kill the strategic elements of psykers in the list planning stage. I am not personally a fan of it and much preferred buying the powers.
Having said that as the powers stand right now ML1 psykers already effectively do this. When is the last time you did not see one of these guys get prescience when there are IG allied?
I think we are effectively stuck with this system barring a major points and rules shift in the next edition as the psyker prices have shifted to lower levels seemingly to account for this element and DA do not even have psychic powers without the BRB.
Peregrine wrote: You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.
Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.
This isn't exactly hard.
+1 this, they've done it before. If it wasn't going to ruin everyone's ability to play tourneys. I'd do this in our club in a second (this and convert all vehicles to MC)
hotsauceman1 wrote:Because making sure you get the powerful spell is stupid. If everyone could get iron arm that would be just game breaking
Right, because obviously 1st-5th edition were game broken. See, we play this game and use points to balance our forces. If the powerful spells cost more, actually in-line with what they do, and the less-effective spells cost less, then the game won't be broken.
Sasori wrote:I think randomization, allows them to put some much more powerful Psyker abilties in, than we have seen in the past.
Which, of course, screws over the whole point concept. Say we have identical armies, and we paid the same number of points for a handful of MCs, but all mine got Iron Arm, and Warp Speed, while all of yours got Haemorrhage and Smite. Do you think our game is going to be fair? My MCs will, across the board, beat yours. They'll be stronger, tougher, with more attacks, striking first, and have both fleet and eternal warriors. Yours, on the other hand, will have powers that might do a wound to me, 1/6th of the time, assuming I don't deny the witch (An option you don't have).
So much for us having a fair game based on the points we paid.
This is the main reason that psychic powers are really really badly done in this edition. Because random generation throws the system that the game uses to create fair matchups out the window.
I don't mind rolling for powers. Most trees are pretty good. The only ones that are really full of duds, are Pyro, and the CSM tables, IMO. The rest have some really good, some good, and some ok.
Actually, it's really easy to pick the good tables from the bad ones. The good ones are loaded with Blessings, and the bad ones are loaded with Witchfire.
Even with a BS of 5, firing at a non-psyker target, Witchfire powers are only 70% as effective as Blessings, because you have two additional points of failure. You can miss your shot, and your opponent can Deny the Witch. Blessings don't roll to-hit and can't be denied. What really sucks is that most of the time, I'm okay with being shot by a witchfire power, and the things I'd really like to deny are Blessings and Maledictions.
Biomancy is "good" because half the powers are blessings. Divination is good because more than half the powers, including the primaris, are blessings. Telepathy is so-so because it has some blessings, and even maledictions are better than witchfire.
Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and most of both Chaos trees are bad because they're predominantly Witchfire.
Almost without exception, you'd be better off giving your psyker a simple shooting weapon than paying the points and ending up with Witchfire. The current standard appears to be 25 points for a masterey level, enough that you should be able to buy either a lascannon or assault cannon instead, and these weapons are statistically better than any Witchfire power (again, because with a gun, you just roll to-hit, with a psychic shooting attack, you have additional points of failure, the psychic test and the Deny the Witch roll).
What's more, so they went to a fantasy-style random-power generation system, but without the other things that make fantasy reasonable. In Fantasy, weaker powers are easier to cast. Your level 1 wizard doesn't want the best power in the book, because he's rarely going to cast it successfully. And, the powers that are harder to cast come with an increased chance of critical failure. The more dice you put into casting, the more likely you are to get double 1's. Fantasy's dispel mechanism is much better than 40k's Deny the Witch system. Even the non-magical fantasy race has a reasonable chance of stopping game breaking powers from being cast.
Honestly I was fine with the Eldar until their new codex came out. Using the random powers from the book I found fun sometimes (getting invisibility and using it on a group of warlock jetbikers LOL SO OP) but really I would honestly just have been happy with getting to choose to buy fortune, doom, and guide exactly the way they were in the old codex.
Right, because obviously 1st-5th edition were game broken. See, we play this game and use points to balance our forces. If the powerful spells cost more, actually in-line with what they do, and the less-effective spells cost less, then the game won't be broken.
Jaws of the World Wolf. (5th)
Lash of Submission (4th)
Siren (3.5 edition)
Purifiers Psyker ability (5th)
Sanctuary Daemonhunters (4th vs Codex Daemons)
Strike Squads Psyker Ability (5th)
Also, 2nd edition Psykers were outright broken at times, I'm not sure what game you were playing back then..
hotsauceman1 wrote: Because making sure you get the powerful spell is stupid. If everyone could get iron arm that would be just game breaking
Because making sure you get the powerful units is stupid. If everyone could get Doom scythes that would be just game breaking
gmaleron wrote: Sure lets let every caster pick their powers, that would really be fair and would not break the game. Randomization is there so people CANNOT do that kind of stuff, its a risk taking a Psyker but then again the whole game is a dice game so you gamble when you take him, and if your banking on a random power for your army then you might want to change some things up.
Sure lets let every unit pick their weapons, that would really be fair and would not break the game. Randomization is there so people CANNOT do that kind of stuff, its a risk taking a unit but then again the whole game is a dice game so you gamble when you take it, and if your banking on a random weapon for your army then you might want to change some things up.
Because there is no such thing as point values. Weapon options for each end every unit are the same and cost the same.No matter the codex, the FOC or anything.
Fortune cannot simply be more expensive than Destructor. Different cost and availability for Tervigon and MEQ psyker for Iron Arm? That's just madness!
I have a better idea. You pay 100 points and roll a dice: 4+ you get Vendetta, if not have some get Rough Riders. That's how you do balance!
I make 1000 points army. One game I get indestructible death machine. The same army next game is piece of crap. That's balance!
So people are now complaining that they build an army around specific powers, and if they dont get them, they are screwed?
Theres a moral to this story, stop building an entire army and plans around a few models.
Seriously, this is turning into hero-hammer all over again, just for 40k.
I rather rely on a different plan and army building idea than have everything revolve around a few models.
So, how do people cope when a few precision shots remove a farseer or the likes that is boosting the unit?
Invis on a bike lord is nice, but once he dies, whats the plan?
Because said unit is now pretty much useless without him.
People need to rely on units and support units more, instead of characters.
I get that Eldar players are hurt that they now have to roll for random powers like everybody else (including the forces of the freakin' god of magic), but at least Eldar have a really good (and large) set of race specific powers, many of which have dual uses, and they get access to the best BRB power trees.
Meanwhile, Tzeentch daemon powers are all witchfire (and none of them are particularly good) and limited to 4 powers. Funny that the god of magic, subtle manipulations, and extensive intricate planning has powers that basically boil down to "PEW PEW".
Right, because obviously 1st-5th edition were game broken. See, we play this game and use points to balance our forces. If the powerful spells cost more, actually in-line with what they do, and the less-effective spells cost less, then the game won't be broken.
Jaws of the World Wolf. (5th)
Jaws is a bad example of this, because it does not cost more than the other powers. For some reason they decided that all SW powers should cost the same, so of course people picked the best one.
Lash of Submission (4th)
One power that did not affect units in transports and was probably mis-priced a little too low, in a codex with really poor alternatives, is not illustrative of a flawed system, it's just one power that got missed.
Siren (3.5 edition)
Well, you had to roll to get siren. It's more like a 6th ed power than any of the others you mention because there was no guarantee you got it, and people who built armies around it ended up losing games when they didn't get it.
I fail to see why you're mentioning these. Each are strong against a couple of units, but neither are game breaking. You'll also note that this is another bad example to use to contest my point that when you use points to price better powers higher, you get a better system, because neither of these are optional powers, nor do they cost a variable number of points.
Sanctuary Daemonhunters (4th vs Codex Daemons)
Yeah, sure. You know how many people took sanctuary in take-all-comer lists? 0. Because it wasn't good against any but one codex.
So, let's see, you managed to get one single example (Lash), where the power was slightly undercosted compared to the other options in that codex, and so was taken disproportionately. Hardly indicative of a flaw in the underlying concept, unless you want to also argue that Helldrakes invalidate the concept of using points to balance the game entirely. Every other example you cited was a case where they went away from the base points-for-power concept - more of an argument to keep that system than to discount it, I'd say.
The Blood God says psychic powers have always been dumb as hell!
seriously though its a good thing that most units come with their own psychic powers I have still yet to roll for unit appropriate powers for my nids : / not that theyre useless just havent gotten to use the "cool" ones maybe theyll come up in a few games... maybe...
So, let's see, you managed to get one single example (Lash), where the power was slightly undercosted compared to the other options in that codex, and so was taken disproportionately. Hardly indicative of a flaw in the underlying concept, unless you want to also argue that Helldrakes invalidate the concept of using points to balance the game entirely. Every other example you cited was a case where they went away from the base points-for-power concept - more of an argument to keep that system than to discount it, I'd say.
I was just listing strong psyker powers that have been prevalent through the current editions.
To be fairly honest I hope they keep the 6th, and advance it on to more like 2nd/1st edition warhammer psyker rules.
I want to see the Weirdboy able to charge up a huge beam of power that could radiate out forth from him and knock down an entire army, and kill half his forces again because the dice rolled against him. The concept of actual deadly warp perils but at the same time very powerful psykers..But not enough that they become an Auto-Include like fantasy.
Jackal wrote: So people are now complaining that they build an army around specific powers, and if they dont get them, they are screwed?
Theres a moral to this story, stop building an entire army and plans around a few models.
Seriously, this is turning into hero-hammer all over again, just for 40k.
I rather rely on a different plan and army building idea than have everything revolve around a few models.
So, how do people cope when a few precision shots remove a farseer or the likes that is boosting the unit?
Invis on a bike lord is nice, but once he dies, whats the plan?
Because said unit is now pretty much useless without him.
People need to rely on units and support units more, instead of characters.
This is simply not true.
1) Eldar in 5th edition. Picked powers. Most desirable powers: Fortune, Doom, Guide. All focusing on: units, support, supplementing each other.
2) Tyranids in 6th edition. Random powers. Most desirable powers: Iron Arm and the like. Creating single model unstoppable death machines. Cast Iron arm and all the buffs, point single model at the enemy.
Which one is hero-hammer and which is army focused?
Draigo, Ghazzy, Lysander vs. doom/fortune farseer, Null Zone chaplain, Prescience chaplain.
Which one is hero-hammer and which is support?
And yes, building armies around single models is exclusive to psykers picking their powers. Random powers completely voided that concept. Keep telling yourself that, maybe someday it will be true.
"People need to rely on units and support units more". Great. For supporting my army I will pick farseer. I wanted fortune but got power that increases my number of attacks. As seen on given example, randomization helps with "support units more".
When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?
Baronyu wrote: When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...
Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...
Same problem with spells like Invisibility which are good on horde armies like Daemons, but would if kept cheap to make them worthwhile would then be OP on high armour save armies like say a Termiewing.
Meanwhile, the Witchfire powers would need to be rather costly for those with high BS, but then become too expensive on lower BS psykers.
See the problem? You can't fairly cost powers when you have vastly different types of models with access to the same psychic lores.
All that needs doing to properly balance the system is to bring a proper 'Psychic Phase' with casting/dispelling pools and have things work ala Fantasy Magic Phase.
Right now buffs in 40k are heinously strong because you simply can't stop them unless you have access to a Space Wolves Rune Priest. Witchfires on the other hand are rather weaksauce, especially against armies with tones of psychic defenses like GK's or Daemons or Eldar.
I dont mind that the general farseers, sorcerers, and non-named characters have to randomly generate. I mind it when Eldrad Ahriman, or the swarmlord are often forgetting some of their most useful powers. It also means that all the rolls are always on one table until you get the powers you want.
For named/expensive HQs, they should have allowed you to roll 2d6 for each warp charge and pick the one you want. None of this eldrad forgetting fortune or doom crap. However, if you wanted to roll on multiple tables you still wouldnt be guaranteed your power of choice. Nice balance between the two. When you are spending 200+ points on an HQ, a bit of reliability shouldnt be too much to ask.
Well, you had to roll to get siren. It's more like a 6th ed power than any of the others you mention because there was no guarantee you got it, and people who built armies around it ended up losing games when they didn't get it.
Actually you could pick Siren. It did cost 60pts though. You had to buy 6 rolls on the Slaanesh minor power table and duplicates were re-rolled. As long as no rolls of a 1 were made, then you were pretty much guaranteed to get Siren.
FWIW, I agree with you. the 6th ed. way for dealing with psychic powers is nothing short of terrible.
Personally, I think it was an ambitious mis-step. I appreciate Games Workshop's attempt to take a mechanic and make it a shared mechanic, no longer specific to a single codex. I think it does a real disservice, however, to the less forgiving armies, or armies where the psykers don't have anything else going for them. A Great Unclean One can still tear a dreadnought open like tissue paper, but a single farseer is kind of out of luck if he gets a poopy power.
I realize that having a table with a broken power on it isn't going to work if you can choose, because everyone will pick the broken power, but that's not an argument FOR randomness, it's an argument AGAINST certain broken powers existing in the first place. We've made it through five previous editions without psykers being the be-all-end-all, and I think a little less randomness there might help. Just my personal opinion, of course.
Baronyu wrote: When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...
Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...
Same problem with spells like Invisibility which are good on horde armies like Daemons, but would if kept cheap to make them worthwhile would then be OP on high armour save armies like say a Termiewing.
Meanwhile, the Witchfire powers would need to be rather costly for those with high BS, but then become too expensive on lower BS psykers.
See the problem? You can't fairly cost powers when you have vastly different types of models with access to the same psychic lores.
All that needs doing to properly balance the system is to bring a proper 'Psychic Phase' with casting/dispelling pools and have things work ala Fantasy Magic Phase.
Right now buffs in 40k are heinously strong because you simply can't stop them unless you have access to a Space Wolves Rune Priest. Witchfires on the other hand are rather weaksauce, especially against armies with tones of psychic defenses like GK's or Daemons or Eldar.
It's not impossible to balance the tables with points costs, you'd just have to give each unit in their codex entry a points cost for each power they can take. It would be clunky and awkward, but doable.
I think the tables were a mistake in the first place. Armies were a lot more unique when everyone had different powers, instead of every psyker in the galaxy knowing how to do the exact same things. It makes the game blander, in addition to obviously making it less strategic.
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...
Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...
.
If thats the case then it's simple, don't have a generalized price for a power.
The new system is pretty stupid. IMO there is no reason that SM, CSM, Tyranids or Eldar share any powers at all with each other. General powers are just so bland and doesn't make any sense. I would rather have purchasable powers and all race specific. Sure some could be a little similar, that would unavoidable for balance reasons.
Thank god I can choose what powers my crypteks and C'tan have..
I think that psykers should be able to choose race specific powers, but not generic rulebook powers. I actually deny the existence of generic rulebook powers, and think that they are one of the stupidest implements in 40k. Ever.
wilsjur wrote: I think that psykers should be able to choose race specific powers, but not generic rulebook powers. I actually deny the existence of generic rulebook powers, and think that they are one of the stupidest implements in 40k. Ever.
This might actually be a good idea, if they redesigned most psyker powers. For Eldar and some it might work, but other books have really bad powers, with perhaps one gem. The rulebook as it stands now is one of the only things that might convince armies to pick a psyker HQ.
Eldarain wrote: Coming from Fantasy first I have no issue with the randomization.
Having said that a lack of a proper psychic phase is disappointing. I'd much prefer that over the freely buff yourself, witchfires are garbage system they have now.
Yeah, I know that feel. Do you find you get even a little annoyed when the 40k players whine about something being a teensy bit random?
wilsjur wrote: I think that psykers should be able to choose race specific powers, but not generic rulebook powers. I actually deny the existence of generic rulebook powers, and think that they are one of the stupidest implements in 40k. Ever.
This might actually be a good idea, if they redesigned most psyker powers. For Eldar and some it might work, but other books have really bad powers, with perhaps one gem. The rulebook as it stands now is one of the only things that might convince armies to pick a psyker HQ.
I plan on playing this way with my eldar (my gaming group is very, very lenient with rules)
Sasori wrote: I think randomization, allows them to put some much more powerful Psyker abilties in, than we have seen in the past.
You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.
..but Peregrine, it wouldn't be that CINEMATIC anymore with balanced powers!
Experiment 626 wrote:
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...
Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
You mean like how they have different costs for upgrades like Stim Injectors based on whether it's on a Riptide or a Crisis Suit? Wow, that was so hard to figure out.
Baronyu wrote: When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...
Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...
Why does the power have to cost the same for all units ... obviously a huge MC should pay more for iron arm compared to a librarian etc.
As noted by numerous posters here different costs for different units would achieve much better balance while giving player choice.
Not giving the same power to such a different units (BRB powers) also would.
Current solution is the exact system that creates such disproportions. Right now all the units have the same cost / chance of getting that power. It's a binary system. Give or don't give access to the discipline. There is no possibility of scaling things.
People really need to understand that psychic powers are no different than weapons, skills, wargear or any other crap that units can get. And that random is not balanced!
Mr Mugguffins wrote: Yeah, I know that feel. Do you find you get even a little annoyed when the 40k players whine about something being a teensy bit random?
"Teensy bit" random? I guess vendetta is "teensy bit" better than rippers.
Eldarain wrote: Coming from Fantasy first I have no issue with the randomization.
Having said that a lack of a proper psychic phase is disappointing. I'd much prefer that over the freely buff yourself, witchfires are garbage system they have now.
Yeah, I know that feel. Do you find you get even a little annoyed when the 40k players whine about something being a teensy bit random?
Because I do
Add me to that list too please!
All we really need is a fully fleshed out Psychic Phase and perhaps another 2 or 3 BRB Lores.
The thing I hated the most in all honesty about 40k psychic powers was that you only ever saw powers a/b/c used because they were no-brainer options. Random powers makes psykers into proper support units for most armies, while the 3 main psychic races, (Eldar, Tyranids & Daemons), get the options the include more than 1-2 psykers, meaning much better odds of rolling up at least 1 copy of the power you're after.
Experiment 626 wrote: Random powers makes psykers into proper support units for most armies, while the 3 main psychic races,
Yeah, and it's complete coincidence that the most popular support psykers are the ones with access to divination, where you can completely ignore the drawbacks of random power choice because the primaris power is the best one.
Peregrine wrote: You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.
Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.
This isn't exactly hard.
This is the ticket, right here. I wouldn't have any problem with a group pricing out the abilities for it's games and going with that. There are people enough that play this game with the wit to make reasonable rules for how much powers cost.
Randomness is a pretty dumb idea especially from a NARRATIVE standpoint that GW loves so much. This is also true about warlord powers.
How does the general of your army not even know what he's good at except at the very start of a battle? Or why would they bring support units like psykers if they don't even know what powers they have learned?
Unfortunately randomness is a simple way to balance things out without actually trying very hard. Why balance anything when it's random!
They used to do this, but GW leadership and design philosophy is different now. Everything must be random.
Lets take a demon army that is playing the mission where objectives are worth random amount of points.
The demon army has to roll for the following during a game
warlord trait
psychic powers
random gifts
randomize the objective point values of objectives
During the game roll randomly for mysterious objectives
Warp storm chart
Roll random # of shots or strength on powers
Roll randomly for Deny the Witch
Random assault range
If Demons lose combat you gotta roll randomly to see how many extra guys you lose (where as armies like SM just lose nothing or fearless guys lose nothing),
At end of game roll random game length
Yes a lot of these apply to all armies, but Demons are a good example as they have even more random rolls. The point here is that why are psychic powers treated differently? Most are simply buffs or shooting attacks that other units can WITHOUT having them be psychic (IE require a random roll, a LD test, a to hit roll and a deny the witch roll). You don't roll randomly to see what gun your unit is carrying nor do you roll random shooting distances.
Peregrine wrote: You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.
Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.
This isn't exactly hard.
Actually it is.
How would you price, say, the aforementioned Invisibility?
A 4+ cover save isn't too valuable to, say, Space Marines, who get a natural 3+ save anyway. Whatever price is given for Space Marines would be an absolute STEAL for Tyranids, who can also take Telepathy, but have natural saves around 5+ and 6+ mostly, and it can stack with a Venomthrope to become a 2+ cover save. If you priced it to be sensible for Tyranids, it wouldn't be taken at all by Space Marine players.
-Loki- wrote: A 4+ cover save isn't too valuable to, say, Space Marines, who get a natural 3+ save anyway. Whatever price is given for Space Marines would be an absolute STEAL for Tyranids, who can also take Telepathy, but have natural saves around 5+ and 6+ mostly, and it can stack with a Venomthrope to become a 2+ cover save. If you priced it to be sensible for Tyranids, it wouldn't be taken at all by Space Marine players.
That's why you give up on the idea of a universal set of psychic powers and give each psychic unit a list of powers with their own point costs. Then C:SM librarian might pay 10 points for the cover save power while a Tyranid whatever pays 50 points. You know, like how they did it in 5th.
Peregrine wrote: You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.
Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.
This isn't exactly hard.
Actually it is.
How would you price, say, the aforementioned Invisibility?
A 4+ cover save isn't too valuable to, say, Space Marines, who get a natural 3+ save anyway. Whatever price is given for Space Marines would be an absolute STEAL for Tyranids, who can also take Telepathy, but have natural saves around 5+ and 6+ mostly, and it can stack with a Venomthrope to become a 2+ cover save. If you priced it to be sensible for Tyranids, it wouldn't be taken at all by Space Marine players.
You'd just price it differently for the different armies. I believe this is done quite a bit with weapons and wargear, and some experimentation on how to scale the price on a clubs part should bring about a playable result. Just run some Mathhammer table trials and you could arrive at some costs.
Think of it this way. Would you guys want to go back to Eldar having fortune at the cost of one Warp charge and Eldrad being able to cast it twice a turn? Would you want Tyranids putting iron arm on everything? Would you want the Seer Council having both Fortune AND invisibility?
Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling. It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .
GTKA666 wrote: Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling.
Or you could just not have blatantly overpowered powers at all, instead of a 1/6 chance to get something blatantly overpowered.
It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .
Strategy is picking the appropriate powers, just like writing a good list. Random powers is no better than having to play with a random list.
Also, as I said before, it's no coincidence that divination, where the primaris power is the best (or at least always powerful), is the most popular choice for psykers.
GTKA666 wrote: Think of it this way. Would you guys want to go back to Eldar having fortune at the cost of one Warp charge and Eldrad being able to cast it twice a turn? Would you want Tyranids putting iron arm on everything? Would you want the Seer Council having both Fortune AND invisibility?
Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling. It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .
First of all, that isn't strategy, it's tactics. Strategy is your overall goal going into a game, tactics are what you do to try to achieve your strategy. So random powers actually almost completely remove the strategy aspect, and make you rely more on tactics. Hooray for semantics!
And secondly, you know what else would make it fair? Appropriate points costs. You know, like the balancing mechanism that the entire game is built on? Seems a bit more fair to me.
GTKA666 wrote: Think of it this way. Would you guys want to go back to Eldar having fortune at the cost of one Warp charge and Eldrad being able to cast it twice a turn? Would you want Tyranids putting iron arm on everything? Would you want the Seer Council having both Fortune AND invisibility?
Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling. It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .
Right noone sayintg let anyone else pick their powers, but it could have been a really fluffy way to alter how eldar function in 40k to let them and them alone choose their powers only from their codex list not form BRB and have their powers properly costed and balanced around that fact, instead we get super unfluffy bs.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
"created" characters? that's what the unique designation is for. being able to cherry-pick powers would be too powerful and we all know that if they had to be bought as upgrades there would be a great gnashing of teeth and wailing that Iron Arm was a 50 power or whatever. Random powers is fine.
Only if you're incompetent and fail to balance the options properly. Random tables are only needed if you suck at balance and can't avoid having overpowered ones.
That's why you give up on the idea of a universal set of psychic powers and give each psychic unit a list of powers with their own point costs. Then C:SM librarian might pay 10 points for the cover save power while a Tyranid whatever pays 50 points. You know, like how they did it in 5th.
Thank you for saving me the trouble of answering.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Also a good point. I didn't even consider this from a fluffy standpoint.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Honestly, it is bad for pretty much any named character as well! Eldrad doesn't know what he can do before going into battle, Ahriman doesn't get it either. Fateweaver runs around with a thousand spells you have to roll for, etc.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.
Have no sympathy for people who turn up to a game and feel that a slight change in the breeze just screwed their entire strategy over. Napoleon had a pretty relevant quote.
I don't know having iron arm on your MC and not having it is a rather big difference and if you take a biker HQ for marines or eldar and you dont get invisibility , then you are more or less screwed as you said it.
Psychic powers on a lot of models are not bonus things that are cool when they work , but it is ok if they dont . Not every psyker is Coteaz.
This isn't even a high risk or high gain situation .
You can pick powers. They're called primaris powers. Using DA that gives me...4 powers to choose from if I don't feel like rolling a few die before the game.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.
Have no sympathy for people who turn up to a game and feel that a slight change in the breeze just screwed their entire strategy over. Napoleon had a pretty relevant quote.
I made an Assault Squad Sergeant with a round Wolf Guard Terminator Storm Shield and bolt pistol after watching either Captain America or The Avengers. I forget which.
More useless than a single lasgun against 100 Space Marines, but the model was cool as heck. Even if I did use a Sanguinary Guard jump pack on him, complete with angelic wings. And some Grey Knight parts too - particularly the front chest armor and the head. I think the head was actually a GK Terminator of some sort.
Grey Knight kits are an awesome source of cool power swords and relic blades and power axes. Each kit comes with 10 one-handed power swords, 5 left, 5 right. Use the two-handed swords as relic blades, and the glaives as halberds - since GW insists on calling them halberds anyways - which fall under the power axe category. Even the power armor bits are useable as artificer armor because they look so ornate and stand out against normal Space Marines.
Mix them with some choice Sanguinary Guard arms with boltguns, and you've got some cool as hell Honor Guard.
I had a crazy thought a while back. An Honor Guard model, using a one-handed power sword in his right arm, with his left arm being from a Sanguinary Guard with wrist-mounted boltgun, and his left hand holds a bolt pistol.
I forget what the thread is about sometimes.
I have no opinion on psychic powers. I didn't use them much in 5th, haven't been taking them in 6th so far (but I've played like 2-3 games at most since 6th came out, mostly due to losing interest/having hopes crushed by fellow forum-goers at one point in 5th).
Experiment 626 wrote:
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...
Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...
Same problem with spells like Invisibility which are good on horde armies like Daemons, but would if kept cheap to make them worthwhile would then be OP on high armour save armies like say a Termiewing.
Meanwhile, the Witchfire powers would need to be rather costly for those with high BS, but then become too expensive on lower BS psykers.
See the problem? You can't fairly cost powers when you have vastly different types of models with access to the same psychic lores.
This.
Experiment 626 wrote:All that needs doing to properly balance the system is to bring a proper 'Psychic Phase' with casting/dispelling pools and have things work ala Fantasy Magic Phase.
Not this. Merging Fantasy with 40k isn't necessary - because if you want that level of magik, you can play Fantasy.
The move to increased reliance on psychic powers generally was, imo, a big step backwards in 6th. I appreciate that in 5th some armies had psychic powers - these generally made sense from a fluff and tactical perspective (eg Eldar, Nids, Chaos & Daemons) and made the armies unique. For Marines generally powers were far more restricted plus generally less useful and the focus was therefore on selecting the army and not on the psychic abilities. In a game, they were exceptions, not the rule. (For me the most common ones encountered were Gate, JOTWW and Living lightning - course JOTWW was not ideal as I'm a Cron player ).
In 6th, they are everywhere. I started GK, and immediately discovered that for 55 points I could twin link a full GKSS strike squad, plus get some wounds to keep the unit alive. So, 2 Psycannons, 8 Stormbolters with Psybolt, twin linked. Coteaz for 100 points with Divination IS gamebreaking - Not only can I TL the strike squad, I can usually position it to IBEY, PLUS I might get misfortune or forwarning/foreboding.
The limited options in 5th which were army specific made a lot more sense and meant that GW could, through FAQs etc "tweak" old codexes to make them more competitive. If Iron Arm was a Tyranid only power, that would make sense. But, yesterday I encountered Mephiston with Iron Arm.
Given all the comments in this thread about the difficulty of pricing etc, get rid of all the generic Psychic powers - bring back 5th ed where you pick from your codex!
MandalorynOranj wrote: *snip*
I think the tables were a mistake in the first place. Armies were a lot more unique when everyone had different powers, instead of every psyker in the galaxy knowing how to do the exact same things. It makes the game blander, in addition to obviously making it less strategic.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.
Have no sympathy for people who turn up to a game and feel that a slight change in the breeze just screwed their entire strategy over. Napoleon had a pretty relevant quote.
Yeah don't give up but my question is... imagine if your power weapons were rolled on to find out what you get? And the power sword was the "primaris" weapon. Roll a one and you might get a power fist roll a 6 and you might get a power fist that hits on initiative! I'd rather they kept the old system of having psyker tables in the codeces for each army. Let them be more original that is for certain! It could be balanced.... but it would admittedly be a pain. Yet look what we have now? We have expensive units that can literally pay 75 points to not even get the weapon they want.
The random table is a terrible idea. Because it promotes a lazy system where GW can throw in terrible and broken spells into one table without having to worry about internal balance. Yet even then they fethed up. Divination is great, Biomancy is good, Telepathy is a good back-up choice, and then you get into pyromancy and the sorts where you say meh and then walk away. What was so bad about all armies getting their own unique spells? Heck, out of the armies they have released, the only armies that haven't gotten their own personal psyker table of their own have been Tau (whom don't have psykers) and Dark Angels.
The randomisation works. Like other posters have said, it's a lot more balanced with randomization and adds for more variation and tactical flexibility. If you could choose, everyone would pick powers X, Y and Z, and build lists around them. With the current system, you have to make use with what you've got, which tests your skill as a general a lot more. The people who rely on getting a certain power are doomed to fail when they don't.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.
My stance on it is it's fine, just don't tell me about it for half an hour.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.
My stance on it is it's fine, just don't tell me about it for half an hour.
You mean I haven't told you about my ultra - super - mega - ultra fire caste commander that is totally not Farsight?
Just wait till I see you next time my friend......
OT: I honestly don't get the move to random powers, it is much harder to balance, especially since the better charts are just "stack up on those blessing "
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.
My stance on it is it's fine, just don't tell me about it for half an hour.
Oh, I thought it was about mentioning the made up background.
There's only so long I can listen to how something like a small Tau cadre allied with a SoB detatchment can take on the Black Templars and steal a ship in order to hunt down some traitors somewhere who did something to some kroot or whatever. Which is why the random SoB is with these Tau.
Ah k, well one has to be mentioned to avoid confusion at any rate. Just with creating the background I agree it'd make more sense to be able to pick your powers; it'll help represent them better perhaps.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
"created" characters? that's what the unique designation is for. being able to cherry-pick powers would be too powerful and we all know that if they had to be bought as upgrades there would be a great gnashing of teeth and wailing that Iron Arm was a 50 power or whatever. Random powers is fine.
If it was that on top of the printed cost of a psyker in the new books, then yeah that could be bad. But look at it this way: in the current books the cost of a mastery level is about 25 points. That makes that the average cost of a power rolled from a table. Some are higher, some are lower. So take a Farseer at 100 points, ML3. Strip out the mastery levels and you've got a 25 point model who has to then pay for three, or let's say up to three, powers. You could load up on the biggest and best powers and have an incredibly powerful HQ who makes your army much better, but costs a hell of a lot. Or you can take cheaper and more moderately powerful powers, and spend less points on it making it less of a powerhouse.
The Shadow wrote:The randomisation works. Like other posters have said, it's a lot more balanced with randomization and adds for more variation and tactical flexibility. If you could choose, everyone would pick powers X, Y and Z, and build lists around them. With the current system, you have to make use with what you've got, which tests your skill as a general a lot more. The people who rely on getting a certain power are doomed to fail when they don't.
How is it more balanced than just paying points appropriate to what you get? I hate to bring it up when it's come up so much in this thread, but if you think it is more balanced would you be in favor of buying a "gun" for your HQ? you roll randomly, it could be a laspistol, it could be a multimelta, maybe the primaris is a storm bolter. Or roll for what aura effect a Sanguinary Priest has? You could get FnP, or you could get Adamantium Will. Random! Why is it "balanced" to not be able to build your army the way you want just because you are using psykers?
MandalorynOranj wrote: How is it more balanced than just paying points appropriate to what you get? I hate to bring it up when it's come up so much in this thread, but if you think it is more balanced would you be in favor of buying a "gun" for your HQ? you roll randomly, it could be a laspistol, it could be a multimelta, maybe the primaris is a storm bolter. Or roll for what aura effect a Sanguinary Priest has? You could get FnP, or you could get Adamantium Will. Random! Why is it "balanced" to not be able to build your army the way you want just because you are using psykers?
Because people seem to think that two wrongs make it right. You know, "when I walk the dog, we have both 3 legs on average".
You have a a game when your 100 point psyker gets a incredible power that should make him cost at least 150 total.
Then you have another game where the same psyker gets shooting power putting him at a estimated power of marine with a lacannon.
You can look at that situation and say: well, he was once very useful, once way overpriced so in the end you have a balanced psyker.
You could also look at it that you had two games and in each and every game you got something that was NOT costed appropriately.
If you would gather statistics from all over the world and count how psykers do you'd probably get some sort of balanced outcome.
For a single game, trying new strategy, wanting to play specific build, single tournament etc it does not work.
One crappy and one awesome psyker does not equal two balanced ones.
As for more variety: yes, we have so much variety that biomancy and divination are on the pedestal while telepathy weeps alone in the dark corner. The rest might as well not exist. First association with a psyker = twin-linking. If you are a beatstick, hope for Iron Arm.
Honestly, as a dedicated Tau player, I never even bothered to read the psychic powers chapter. I don't really mind the tables and my regular opponents seem to be reasonably positive about them, but for a more competitive audience I can see them causing problems.
Maybe give a list of base powers in the main rulebook like there is now, then give each codex separate points costs for accessing those basic powers. Maybe have some codexes unable to access certain powers or give them unique powers, have different power options available in the same codex representing the strength of the psyker? It seems more reasonable.
Also I think having a dedicated "psychic phase" and giving the powers a larger place in the game might be a good idea. They already kind of break the game sequence since you use some of them at the same time as reserves. I'm not sure where that phase would go in the turn structure though. Admittedly it would be a phase where I sit there and get beat on every single turn with zero chance of fighting back, but that's how I'd like to think most opponents feel about my shooting phase.
Giving Psychic powers their own phase would turn a bad outcome into a terrible one.
I got into 40k not because of some models who can magically make themselves tougher/stronger/harder to hit/incredibly fast, or others who can magically make other units weaker/stronger/more accurate/set on fire etc. If I'd wanted that I would have gone to Fantasy.
I have no problems with certain races or even spesh marines having some powers. But keep them in the relevant codex and cost them so they don't break the game.
Better still, remove them from everyone but Chaos, eldar, DE and Nids - at least they make sense from a fluff perspective.
Random powers work until your shooting army wastes all its rolls on assault based buffs trying to get one thing.
Then your opponent rolls great and get iron arm on a bunch of Nid MCs. You can spend every turn shooting all your weapons at one model and you won't do but one to two wounds.
MandalorynOranj wrote: How is it more balanced than just paying points appropriate to what you get? I hate to bring it up when it's come up so much in this thread, but if you think it is more balanced would you be in favor of buying a "gun" for your HQ? you roll randomly, it could be a laspistol, it could be a multimelta, maybe the primaris is a storm bolter. Or roll for what aura effect a Sanguinary Priest has? You could get FnP, or you could get Adamantium Will. Random! Why is it "balanced" to not be able to build your army the way you want just because you are using psykers?
Because people seem to think that two wrongs make it right. You know, "when I walk the dog, we have both 3 legs on average".
You have a a game when your 100 point psyker gets a incredible power that should make him cost at least 150 total.
Then you have another game where the same psyker gets shooting power putting him at a estimated power of marine with a lacannon.
You can look at that situation and say: well, he was once very useful, once way overpriced so in the end you have a balanced psyker.
You could also look at it that you had two games and in each and every game you got something that was NOT costed appropriately.
If you would gather statistics from all over the world and count how psykers do you'd probably get some sort of balanced outcome.
For a single game, trying new strategy, wanting to play specific build, single tournament etc it does not work.
One crappy and one awesome psyker does not equal two balanced ones.
As for more variety: yes, we have so much variety that biomancy and divination are on the pedestal while telepathy weeps alone in the dark corner. The rest might as well not exist. First association with a psyker = twin-linking. If you are a beatstick, hope for Iron Arm.
^^Absolutely correct!! A statistical average over a large range of data (dozens or more games) doesn't guarantee balance when only one of those pieces of data (a game) is used. The only balance you have is everybody is equally screwed by a knuckle-headed approach to game design. As said before, warlord traits being random is also stupid and no different from weapons being random, and heck why not UNITS being random as well? HOW CINEMATIC!
Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.
Fluff isn't an argument against it, warp energies are fickle, what powers you can draw on change on the tides of the warp.
That might be a reasonable thing to say about the ignorant mon-keigh and other inferior species, but the eldar are masters of the warp and the psyker arts, if you think eldrad doesn't know what spells he will have in 5 minute you are ridiculous.
So yeah non tzeentch marines, ig orks etc should have random powers, but eldar should have had a different mechanism for their psyker powers that distinguished them from the other armies, no ability to take rulebook powers and all special powers they got to choose from would have been the correct and fluffy way of making eldar psykers for the codex. Instead they dropped the ball and decided eldar psykers are as ignorant and feeble minded as humans which is laughable.
Psykers have powers they can manifest at will, they don't just hope that they are getting the right power for the job every battle. With the sole exception of the Ork Weirdboys.
I challenge anyone here to provide evidence that Imperial sanctioned psykers (Librarians, Primaris psykers, etc) have no control over what powers they use.
Melissia wrote: Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics
"created" characters? that's what the unique designation is for. being able to cherry-pick powers would be too powerful and we all know that if they had to be bought as upgrades there would be a great gnashing of teeth and wailing that Iron Arm was a 50 power or whatever. Random powers is fine.
Is it cherry picking to pay the points for heavy weapons you want on your vehicles or in your squads and go into a game knowing what they are able to do and be able to create a strategy?
Coming from the 4th edition Eldar Codex to the new 6th edition version, I find myself very disappointed in general with the random nature of psychic powers. I don't randomly roll my weaponry. I don't randomly roll what squad is in what vehicle, or which units I put in reserve. Why the hell would I randomly determine one of the most game-breaking parts of my list? It's just ridiculous. Do I gamble on getting Fortune? If I fail and get some junk, then the squad that needed it is probably toast. If I get it, I'm crazy powerful. Why not just make powers the same as everything else, and make the powerful ones prohibitively expensive? It works for every other part of the game, and I don't understand why psychic powers would ever be the exception.
Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.
WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.
If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.
WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.
If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.
So 40k is kind of like a tabletop Super Smash Brothers. i.e. It is obviously not supposed to be a competitive fighting game, easily 75% of the options/decisions are not really balanced with each other, and the entire setting is so over the top and ridiculous that it's supposed to be impossible to take seriously...but there's still that group of people out there who say "screw it! I'm playing this game competitively."
That said, the merits of random psychic power tables are still up for debate. It all depends on what you want to play the game for I guess.
When I started this thread I tried to convey specifically that it was not even particularly the balance of the powers that irritated me the most, it was the inability to plan and have fun the way in which I like to with my army. Honestly randomizing powers just makes the unit stupid to me and I would prefer to know that I was getting a terrible power every time rather than have to roll on a chart.
WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.
If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.
So 40k is kind of like a tabletop Super Smash Brothers. i.e. It is obviously not supposed to be a competitive fighting game, easily 75% of the options/decisions are not really balanced with each other, and the entire setting is so over the top and ridiculous that it's supposed to be impossible to take seriously...but there's still that group of people out there who say "screw it! I'm playing this game competitively."
That said, the merits of random psychic power tables are still up for debate. It all depends on what you want to play the game for I guess.
Pretty much. Gotta fit those square pegs into those round holes.
rivers64 wrote: When I started this thread I tried to convey specifically that it was not even particularly the balance of the powers that irritated me the most, it was the inability to plan and have fun the way in which I like to with my army. Honestly randomizing powers just makes the unit stupid to me and I would prefer to know that I was getting a terrible power every time rather than have to roll on a chart.
And yet, Fantasy players have 0 trouble with their Wizards getting random spells every single game, with added "disadvantage" of not even being able to specifically tailor their chosen Magic Lores to their opponents every single game like 40k psykers can...
Honestly the fantasy arguments hold no merit for me or in 40k forums in general, I have never played fantasy, it hold no appeal for me to start, and they are completely different games from what I can tell. I can neither agree nor disagree with how fantasy should be because I know literally nothing about the rules. This is a forum about 40k please stop saying "why should you get to have fun when those other guys don't bitch about a semi-similar situation."
Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.
WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.
If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.
So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!
Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.
WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.
If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.
So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!
Exactly. You can go with it, or leave. You can even leave and support a company that has a 'direction for it's game' that better appeals to what you want and therefore provides more pleasure in return for your time invested.
Or keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole I guess.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Exactly. You can go with it, or leave. You can even leave and support a company that has a 'direction for it's game' that better appeals to what you want and therefore provides more pleasure in return for your time invested.
Or keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole I guess.
Have fun making that decision.
That's a pretty pessimistic point of view, don't you think? Just take it or give up? Just because there are elements of the game we don't like doesn't mean we dislike the game as a whole. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't spend my time talking about it here because I hate the game, I'm talking about how to make it better because I love 40k. Do I think it has a couple bad mechanics or flawed designs? Most definitely. I think it's a little unfair to say, though, that just because someone disagrees with GW's notion of how to play the game, they shouldn't try to play the game how they want.
Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.
WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.
If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.
So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!
The thing is, the direction goes back and forth from edition to edition.
Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.
WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.
If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.
So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!
Exactly. You can go with it, or leave. You can even leave and support a company that has a 'direction for it's game' that better appeals to what you want and therefore provides more pleasure in return for your time invested.
Or keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole I guess.
Have fun making that decision.
Congratulations! It sounds like you have already pounded your square head into a round hole. You'd rather fit your thinking into whatever rules are presented, regardless of their merit. I'd rather alter the peg to make it a better fit.
1.) What makes people think GW are capable of correctly point costing anything let alone Psychic powers?
2.) In 5th most codices had all powers cost equally and this led to some powers being great and others worthless. (See marine codex, SW codex, GK codex...the list goes on.)
3.) So while its nice to know what your psyker will do, the idea that GW could balance it is laughable.
4.) People who say that armies don't need to roll for wargear better not go look at codex Daemons...
5.) The argument that it is dumb that multiple races know the same power makes no sense is dumb. Maybe the power does the same thing but slightly differently in "reality". I'd rather see some blandness, than some armies full of useless psychic powers.
6.) Back th the GW point costing things. They either cannot balance things, or don't want to. Just look at the Primaris powers in the book. Who is going to say that any of them are on the same plain as Prescience?
Now random may stink, but it is the game GW has designed, especially in 6th.
Random charge, random powers, random traits, terrain, objectives, night fight....GW thinks random is fun. If you don't perhaps you are playing the wrong game.
Makumba wrote: But if you get the wrong stuff on your brood lord or your biker caster doesnt get invisibility , then it is not just him being bad , it could be anything from 300 to 400pts being bad. If that MC without wings doesn't get iron arm and it happens for two or three of them there is no way to change tactics , the same unit has to do the same job for the same points while being worse. At the same time a non psychic power upgrade or unit works always and all the time .
The best way to avoid this is to not *require* specific psychic powers to be rolled in order for your force to be successfu. Sure think about what you will do if the power you REALLY want is rolled, but if you bet all your chips on getting that power or your force is not going to get the job done, then it isn't the fault of the randomization rule, but your own fault for requiring that specific random result or your army sucks. You CAN readily build your force around the primaris powers, though. So if you must know what powers you'll have and what you can do with them up front, just build around those. Sure they aren't the most powerful powers in each list, but you can guarantee you can have them.
Not sure why people are acting like this is a new concept. This random aspect isn't new to psychic powers, and random spell generation has been common in fantasy practically from the get go. I do like the concept of point based powers instead, though. With a low level power being 10 points and a higher one being 50 or more points. Then you can choose exactly what power you want, but if the power is very powerful it won't be cheap.
IF the psychic abilities are to be randomly generated, they should be EQUALLY useful.
If the psychic abilities are to have varing power, they should be costed accordingly.OR have a ballanceing mechanic when the model uses them.
(Eg the more powerful the ability the harder it is to use successfully.)
Just using randomness to remove player choice from the game is BAD game development .
Those who like randomness, try randomly generating your army .
200pts per roll on the unit chart.
You MAY get a unit worth 1000pts or 30pts.
But this just adds to the 'fun' does it not?
Play for fun by all means , but one sided , one or two turn decimation of armies are not 'fun' for any one.Are they?
(The ONLY thing more soul destroying than total defeat , is total victory.)
Oh I forgot GW plc write the rules for 'collectors' not players.
Rumbleguts wrote: I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.
Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.
In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.
12 galaxies devoid of any form of life. Where's your crown, King Nothing?
You can't take over one, we destroyed dozens. Yours is next. There's no hope, no respite, no escape, only an apocalypse of screaming hunger that shall devour the stars.
Rumbleguts wrote: I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.
Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.
In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.
12 galaxies devoid of any form of life. Where's your crown, King Nothing?
You can't take over one, we destroyed dozens. Yours is next. There's no hope, no respite, no escape, only an apocalypse of screaming hunger that shall devour the stars.
Um... The Human race conquered the Galaxy twice. The Necrons did it once and are trying again. The Eldar took the reigns for awhile too.
"Take over" and "Destroyed" are two different things. And the Tyranids already tried to... "destroy" the milky way. See: Catachan Devil/Brainleaf, Fenris Kraken and Ymargl Genestealers.
There must not have been anything of worth in the other galaxies they consumed.
With their infinite resorces (yes infinite, if they already consumed that much matter they should outnumber the stars of the milkyway 1000x over) they should have FTL travel and other super weapons.
They Tyranids are a failure. They seem to think that bigger is better.
In truth if the Tyranids were the perfect creature for destoying everything they'd be a virus or something. Not dinosaur bugs that float through space in balls of ice.
For those using a fluff justification for picking powers:
Isn't the warp a very unpredictable and fickle power to call upon and even messes up the eldar on multiple occasions even the greatest psykers in the universe cant guarantee the effects of their abilities.
On the subject of random powers being broken or annoying or nonstrategic from a rules perspective, consider for a second that you make your strategic decision by deciding to include a psyker, picking his level and more importantly picking his lore. EVERY psyker I know of (Not too sure of tyranids) has a choice of lores, if your rolling on a table for a SINGLE power, you've decided its worth the risk. Maybe you should have picked a different lore?
As to comparing rolling psychic powers compared to picking weaponry upgrades, there is a monumental difference between
Channeling the forbidden powers from a different hell dimension that is the domain of vengeful, evil chaotic gods
Rumbleguts wrote: I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.
Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.
In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.
12 galaxies devoid of any form of life. Where's your crown, King Nothing?
You can't take over one, we destroyed dozens. Yours is next. There's no hope, no respite, no escape, only an apocalypse of screaming hunger that shall devour the stars.
Um... The Human race conquered the Galaxy twice. The Necrons did it once and are trying again. The Eldar took the reigns for awhile too.
"Take over" and "Destroyed" are two different things. And the Tyranids already tried to... "destroy" the milky way. See: Catachan Devil/Brainleaf, Fenris Kraken and Ymargl Genestealers.
There must not have been anything of worth in the other galaxies they consumed.
With their infinite resorces (yes infinite, if they already consumed that much matter they should outnumber the stars of the milkyway 1000x over) they should have FTL travel and other super weapons.
They Tyranids are a failure. They seem to think that bigger is better.
In truth if the Tyranids were the perfect creature for destoying everything they'd be a virus or something. Not dinosaur bugs that float through space in balls of ice.
And the Imperium has conquered a negligable portion of the inhabitable worlds of the galaxy.
Millions out of billions does not equal even a single percent. Color me unimpressed.
The Necrons? Again, millions out of billions is a tiny number.
Chaos? A tiny fraction out of an imperium that rules a tiny fraction of the galaxy. Largely significant only because of the threat it poses to the legitimacy of the Imperium and to the souls of the Eldar.
Eldar? A dying race that had a similar hegemony to the Imperium, it's gone now and their kind is not long for the stars.
Orks? They have everything they want, they're a bioweapon of the Old Ones run amuck, and they failed to defend their masters in the end given that the Old Ones are dead.
Tau? Don't make me laugh, the Tau are worthless ants on the galactic scale.
The Tyranids are endless, they are the end, they are the eldest race, billions rather than millions of years old. A festering hunger that will consume all things. Not a species, but the many arms of one mind.
The Tyranids exist to look big and scary and then be killed by the billions to make the heroes look good. They are bug Orks.
Leave the role of Big Bad to Chaos and the Necrons.
Also, the Necrons conquered the entire galaxy under the reign of the C'tan. All of it. And even now, their worlds outnumber those of every other species.
It is also interesting to note that, to this day, the Tyranids have never defeated an awake Necron force.
danp164 wrote: For those using a fluff justification for picking powers:
Isn't the warp a very unpredictable and fickle power to call upon and even messes up the eldar on multiple occasions even the greatest psykers in the universe cant guarantee the effects of their abilities.
Actually, from what I've read fluffwise, psykers are able to do the same thing, fairly regularly, although it takes a toll on them mentally and physically. The Astronomicon doesn't just go out one day because the Emperor rolled a different power that day.
If you read any of the Ravenor/Eisenhorn books, the abilities of every psyker mentioned are well-defined and constant. Some may try to push themselves for greater effect, but the nature of their powers are constant.
Wait, I've got it: every psyker fielded on the table is using their powers for the very first time. They've just been inducted into the Librarius/sanctioned by the Guard/started down the Path of the Seer. That's clearly why they don't know what they'll be able to do once the bullets start flying! And every special character just woke up after getting a concussion and forgot.
I think randomization is okay. If you rely on a risky strategy that requires you to have certain spells, don't be surprised it doesn't work all the time.
I am also becoming less and less of a fan of Deny the Witch. I recently played a game against Eldar with my Tzeentch Daemon army. On one shooting phase my entire army got denied. I was most displeased...
Ruarinator2 wrote: I am also becoming less and less of a fan of Deny the Witch. I recently played a game against Eldar with my Tzeentch Daemon army. On one shooting phase my entire army got denied. I was most displeased...
Ruarinator2 wrote: I am also becoming less and less of a fan of Deny the Witch. I recently played a game against Eldar with my Tzeentch Daemon army. On one shooting phase my entire army got denied. I was most displeased...
How did he roll that many 6s?
I'm assuming most squads he shot at had a Seer or Warlock in them so he was denying on 4's?
Ruarinator2 wrote: I am also becoming less and less of a fan of Deny the Witch. I recently played a game against Eldar with my Tzeentch Daemon army. On one shooting phase my entire army got denied. I was most displeased...
How did he roll that many 6s?
I'm assuming most squads he shot at had a Seer or Warlock in them so he was denying on 4's?
It would be on 5's, seeing as they equal ML1, you only get 4+ if you outrank them.
Ah true, maybe the guy was using the Iyanden supplement and had a lot of Spiritseers out there? Or "my entire army" is an exaggeration, or all shot at one unit that rolled very well.
Randomization of powers does not mean that the psyker randomly forgot the powers. It means that the psyker never knew the power. It represents a differentiation of psykers. Some may be good at one path, others another. Some more powerful (more warp charges) some less.
As i said, this is only a problem when you are playing with named characters. I still think my 2d6 pick your choice for named characters is random enough when rolling on multiple tables but consistent enough when rolling on one table to represent fluff and guarantee more of a consistent ability to support your side. Since 6th i have seen literally no one bring a named psyker besides demons due to the huge investment into a unreliable character. Demons at least have the stat line on their characters.
I love the random powers. I play Tyranids, my buddy plays Eldar, and the random powers adds a lot of strategy to change and adapt to every game.
You can play the same list 10 times and have 10 completely different games depending on what powers you get. The Random factor does have some "OP" versions like Iron Arm on a Swarm Lord with Endurance is kinda messed up. But there are some fun things you can get like Gate of Infinity on a Tervigon.
Comparing a psychic phase to Fantasy, in Fantasy you have dispell scrolls and powers don't go off that often. and when they do they are more likely to be game changing that some of the randomness in 40k. Purple sun go go go! !
Lanrak wrote: So rather than adding tactical depth to the game play.(So the game play is massively varied and engaging without having to alter units/abilities.)
Just shoving a load of random game altering strategic options at the start of the game is ok for you?
Why not just roll a D6 for every unit stat at the start of the game.More random =more fun according to GW!!!
.
).
