I'm flirting with the idea of a large squad of BP&CCW marines in with IoV who march up the board. Since you can't assault from Rhinos, why not just footslog it.
Probably give them flamer for overwatch or melta for tanks. Champ will have some kind of power weapon, I'm not sure.

Sounds good, but with overwatch and general enhancement of shooting its gonna be a rough go to try and get the majority of the blob there. CSM are expensive as well and aren't as easy a loss as say a couple Ork boyz, maybe if you mark them up Nurgle like, or even Slaneesh with the Icon of Excess for a Feel No Pain fast striking blob...

As a lover of Close Combat and CSM I gotta admit its still not a viable tactic, but then again I run Warp Talons so what do I know

They're not bad, as long as you don't face either Tau or Heldrakes. You'll do well in combat, but the getting there will be tough of course.
Nurgle or Khorne marking your CSM isn't a bad choice, either for protection to get to combat, or additional attacks in combat. MoS isn't bad either, especially when you can take the FnP banner.

I 100% love the idea, and think they might be the only proper way to run the old power blobs.

I'd do it myself, but I can't be bothered to make 100 CSM models in the near future. I already HAVE a horde army...

I guess you could give them both MoK and IoV, though, and that would ease things a little.

I have been debating on running a similar unit as a troop choice. I find myself wanting to play a assault army with CSM, but it is slowing disappearing from 40k.

Chaos Space Marines painted red for Khorne with some bolters is what I have been using lately to still be fluffy and have effective troops.

I'm planning on running a couple of these blobs with Huron to take advantage of his warlord trait.
I've even considered a big blob of plague marines, though obviously that gets very pricey.

Naked, 20 CSM with BP/CCW are running you 270 points. Fearless is definitely a must, and IoV is the most cost effective way of getting it so that's 295. You are looking at 40 or 60 points for a Mark for the unit though, which hurts.

I have done a similar tactic in the past with my Space Wolves in 5E. I haven't tried it in 6E since I'm on a Drop Pod binge. I'd run 15 naked Blood Claws (225 points) with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader (43 points), Wolf Priest (110 points), and Rune Priest (100 points) up the board. Expensive at 478 points which is why I don't take it anymore. The point was that the Wolf Priest gave the unit Fearless and Stealth (Saga of the Hunter) and the Rune Priest cast Storm Caller when it was in the open. The WG had a Power Fist and a Combi-Flamer. I may have taken 2 Flamers with the Blood Claws, but I don't think I did. My Grey Hunters and TWC (which moved 6" only in 5E) would just run up the board right behind the huge blob of Blood Claws.

You couldn't ignore the Blood Claws. They hit hard enough to wipe most infantry, but it would take an unfortunate amount of shooting to reduce that many 3+/4++ (or better) models to nothing. Normally the ICs and 2-3 Blood Claws (including WG) would still be alive at the end.


You could do a similar thing here for the most part, for 180 points cheaper. Heck, you can probably use that 180 points to get a Sorcerer in with the unit to try for Invisibility and do the same exact thing for 80 points cheaper or so.

I don't see the value in marks really.
MoK is too reliant on getting the charge in.
MoN is powerful but expensive and doesn't help against plasma or battle cannons.
MoS is only worth it as a method to get IoE but we already have IoV.
MoTz is an expensive and worse cover save.

To help with overwatch, you could run a dirge caster Rhino.

You can make the assault blolb work. It just has to be part of a 1-2 combo. Speaking as a guy who runs an assault army you need a quick ''in your face'' unit, the jab. I use drop pods. Idk what chaos would use, but it mostly needs to just distract. Then there's the ''2'' of the combo, the hay maker. That's the blob. As long as it gets save from most of the shooting it will charge with enough power destroy whatever it hits. Like orks running big boyz mobz, but have bikers & nobs to screen & distract.

A 295 points for a 20 man blob sounds like a solid unit to me, not sure if bolters would be the better option honestly just to move up the table and shoot?

How about the addition of two flamers in the units with the unit having CCWs just to soak up fire.

I've run these in practically every list since the new codex dropped. I really like them, they're great for midfield objective capping.

I'll warn you, against a proper shooty army you're going to take at least 50% casualties before you make it into assault. Your offensive power will still be potent, just not as potent as you originally think. I honestly think it's worth the points to have them keep their bolters. Running them purely as assault leave you at a disadvantage, and put a lot of points into a unit that won't be returning it's investment til turn 3 or 4. I'm still trying to perfect the art of when to run and when to let loose with their bolters.

My list always starts with Huron Blackheart and 2 x 20 CSM with Flamer/Plasma. One blob is running every round with Huron to get into assault. The other is the one that kept the bolters as well, they advance 6" every turn and add some considerable anti-infantry firepower.

They are a really solid choice. Lots of bodies, 3+, good amount of dice being thrown around.

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm flirting with the idea of a large squad of BP&CCW marines in with IoV who march up the board. Since you can't assault from Rhinos, why not just footslog it.
Probably give them flamer for overwatch or melta for tanks. Champ will have some kind of power weapon, I'm not sure.

why is Fabulous Bill not in the conversation? He makes 1 blob fearless and gives them the option to take MoS and IoE. Str5 init 5, 60 attacks on the charge
he can then sit in a different blob and give them fearless.

I'm on the fence with Bolters. You get some extra ranged shooting but you're slower to get into combat and less potent.

Would still be fine against Tau but I'd like those other attacks against MEQs or other heavy infantry.

I agree that flamers would be the best overall special. Melta is tempting just because I already have a lot of anti infantry.

Why not 20 Fabius marines with Mark of Nurgle? Good luck killing that.

A good "jab" unit would be nurgle spawn or flesh hounds with karnak or herald on jug

Add Huron (for infiltrate) and a lvl3 unmarked sorc who rolls on telepathy. That sorc has a better than average change of getting invisibility which will turn that blob from scary to OMFG! I can't hurt it.

Don't mark the unit though as it is just a waste overall.

 muagenreaper wrote:
A good "jab" unit would be nurgle spawn or flesh hounds with karnak or herald on jug

I agree, but its hard to find points to add in hounds because you have to devote other units from the daemon codex to have them as allies.

I want to add a BT, Hounds, and some BL to my list but that is a fair amount of points to add to the CSM, limiting there options. Stilling needing at least 2 CSM troops too,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gpfunk wrote:
I've run these in practically every list since the new codex dropped. I really like them, they're great for midfield objective capping.

I'll warn you, against a proper shooty army you're going to take at least 50% casualties before you make it into assault. Your offensive power will still be potent, just not as potent as you originally think. I honestly think it's worth the points to have them keep their bolters. Running them purely as assault leave you at a disadvantage, and put a lot of points into a unit that won't be returning it's investment til turn 3 or 4. I'm still trying to perfect the art of when to run and when to let loose with their bolters.

My list always starts with Huron Blackheart and 2 x 20 CSM with Flamer/Plasma. One blob is running every round with Huron to get into assault. The other is the one that kept the bolters as well, they advance 6" every turn and add some considerable anti-infantry firepower.

They are a really solid choice. Lots of bodies, 3+, good amount of dice being thrown around.

I agree, I think the bolters will be better overall, and even more killy when summing the total models killed by the unit.

Is it worth spending the points on a power weapon for the champion?

I dont think so i usually use my champ as a sacrificial.
as anything you might have gain or paid for might dissapear due to either spawndom or dark apotihisis

Another way you could do this, actually, is with noise marines.

20 CSM with BP+CCW and fearless is 295 points. You could get 20 noise marines with BP+CCW and fearless for 380. A hefty price hike, to be sure (about 1/4 more expensive), but you also get +1I, which makes them a bit killier, but mostly more survivable, and FNP, which makes them quite a bit moreso.

25% more expensive for being a bit over 33% more survivable against most weapons doesn't seem like that bad of a deal, necessarily. Plus, you're also more likely to sweep units and win challenges if you give the champ a power sword.

And if that wasn't enough, they can also take a doom siren.

Actually, I'm starting to think that maybe noise marines out khorne berzerker khorne berzerkers.

I hate to say it, but KB are just an average unit now. Not to say they were the gak in fifth edition. It just the rhino charge nerf killed it for my Khorne Rhino rush army.

Its hard to come up with competitve build using KB as troops. I am working on a list with KB (2 troops), then daemon troops handle the rest. The options are 2 blob units or LR rush, its hard for me to enjoy playing rhino with KB now.

I think a cheap blob of CSM are effective, everything else gets too expensive. Maybe even 2 blob units, I like horde armies... Haha.

I had considered a NM blob but I think the extra cost might be too much. It's a valid option however.

Noise Marines are priced just above the "Spam" option. They're good. But you can only take one or two before you're left strapped for killing power elsewhere. As far as I have run them. And if I'm taking Noise Marines I usually like to make the best use of their shooty options. I know I5 is good and all against other MEQ, but it's not as good as their special weapons in my opinion.

 gpfunk wrote:
Noise Marines are priced just above the "Spam" option. They're good. But you can only take one or two before you're left strapped for killing power elsewhere. As far as I have run them. And if I'm taking Noise Marines I usually like to make the best use of their shooty options. I know I5 is good and all against other MEQ, but it's not as good as their special weapons in my opinion.

I agree, you can field a 20 man CSM w/ mark of slaanesh and a slaanesh lord on a mount, all outflanking with acute senses is in hth from turn 3 onward, with most the guys never dying

Across the field hiding in a rhino with noise boys or holding the jockstraps of my oblits is fabius bile

I have only lost 2/10 games running this ridiculousness...but I usually only bring a 16 man CSM squad and the front 4 guys have regular bolters for round 2 suppression fire when they walk on

It is still 40ish I5 S5 hits the whole combo of marines, lord and fabius is about 620 points...plenty of room for two squads of cultists, and three squads of noise boys in rhinos, teamed with 3 oblits, a dread and a drake in a 2k list...objective wins come easy

I've been fielding two blocks of 20 CSM with Fabius bile for a while now. I find them to be a very competitive choice. The first block has Fabius, making them fearless and the second block of fearless because of Fabius.

I've found that its best to keep em cheap. Don't bother marking them. At 13 points a pop they are very cheap for a T4, 3+ save model. Helldrakes would rather be killing 18 point marines than 13 point CSM.

I take a melta gun and an autocannon in each squad. You never know what your going to be facing, and they are cheap upgrades for what they give. In the squad I mix and match based on the models I own. About 70% of them have BP/CCW, and 30% with bolters/special weapons. The idea here is flexability.

People are correct, the squads will get shot up. Who cares. They are 13 point models that are pretty tough. I would rather have people shooting up these squads than shooting up my important models.

I often use them as an ally for my daemons army to provide durable mid-field troops. I'll bring a GUO and stick him behind some of the CSM. Remember, shooting through a friendly unit at a GUO gives it a 3+ cover save! This means that people can't just throw Abbadon or some other beatstick at the CSM blocks without serious problems. If you run the numbers, you will see that a GUO takes nearly everything's lunch money.

If your fielding them as your primary army, you might want to look at daemons as an ally for the same reason. As an added bonus you can get 1-2 squads of very cheap objective campers. Personally I like plague bearers over cultists, as they are cheaper $$$ wise and don't run off the board when taking 25% causalities.

 labmouse42 wrote:

If your fielding them as your primary army, you might want to look at daemons as an ally for the same reason. As an added bonus you can get 1-2 squads of very cheap objective campers. Personally I like plague bearers over cultists, as they are cheaper $$$ wise and don't run off the board when taking 25% causalities.

I'm working with a similar idea. Using CSMs for midfield or in the case of the blob, aggressive objective holders while PlagueBearers hold the rear.

With daemons though, I'm back and forth on whether investing in the CSM blob or Daemonette blobs would be better. I gain durability with CSMs but Daemonettes have that very nice +run speed and Fleet to make sure they get into combat sooner.

I just beat the other top player in our club with a 30 man cultist blob (MoS) + Abaddon with a 10 man cultist unit in a row screening them. Just ran everyone across the field, lost 25 cultists total, but with 4 flamers between the two squads and simo attacks in CC, I butchered some sternguard, a tactical squad, and a platoon of IG allies.

It was a 2.5k battle with blind lists/game type/opponent, but it was the ultimate scoring distraction and I think (because of Abby) it was totally worth it's points. It did capture the game winning objective too.

 buddha wrote:
Add Huron (for infiltrate) and a lvl3 unmarked sorc who rolls on telepathy. That sorc has a better than average change of getting invisibility which will turn that blob from scary to OMFG! I can't hurt it.

Don't mark the unit though as it is just a waste overall.

I would do this and add a second outflanking blob of 15+ with bolters.

That with 2 drakes and a unit of spawn to pressure early while your CC blob advances and you wait for the outflanking blob/drakes to arrive.

Adding an unmarked level 3 telepath is awesome for any large footslogging squad.

 Lobukia wrote:
Adding an unmarked level 3 telepath is awesome for any large footslogging squad.

Other option could be adding a DA. Hatred would be nice, since I won't be paying for VotLW.
I can dump the IoV now.

 minigun762 wrote:

Other option could be adding a DA. .

If you're ever inclined to use a Dark Apostle, try and find the points for literally anything else with Fearless. It will always be better.

 minigun762 wrote:
Is it worth spending the points on a power weapon for the champion?

possibly, if by power weapon you mean lightning claw.

I have always wanted to run CSM Blob units as troops.

The main question is Bolter vs. CCW/Pistol.
-They always need fearless from some sort of upgrade (icon or HQ).
- Keep the pretty cheap, no more than 320 points I'd say.

Anyone every consider parking 2 20 man CSM units in the center of the table holding 2 objectives and have the rest of your army bring chaos to the enemy, while their are around 40 bolters shooting each turn, even more if targets get close.

I think its a good options for CSM troops other than PM, blob CSM units are the next choice for my army.

Also, saving a little points in larger games by have 2 troop units, allow for better points spent with other units or even allied forces. I can fit the BT I have always wanted to cause chaos with!

Any thoughts on 2 blob units. or it one enough?

The 20 strong gigantoblob works just fine. Gives you a reason to take fabius honestly, because having 20 S5 marines with 3 attacks on the charge, as well as fearless w/o a banner, is great! If you're feeling extra special you can give them MoK and an icon of wrath. Hello potential 120 S6 attacks on the charge!

CannedKhorne wrote:
I have always wanted to run CSM Blob units as troops.

The main question is Bolter vs. CCW/Pistol.
-They always need fearless from some sort of upgrade (icon or HQ).
- Keep the pretty cheap, no more than 320 points I'd say.

Anyone every consider parking 2 20 man CSM units in the center of the table holding 2 objectives and have the rest of your army bring chaos to the enemy, while their are around 40 bolters shooting each turn, even more if targets get close.

I think its a good options for CSM troops other than PM, blob CSM units are the next choice for my army.

Also, saving a little points in larger games by have 2 troop units, allow for better points spent with other units or even allied forces. I can fit the BT I have always wanted to cause chaos with!

Any thoughts on 2 blob units. or it one enough?

The biggest competition for CSM blob squad is the fact you can add cheap cultists or daemons to do something similar.
For example, 600 points buys you 40 Fearless CSMs. For the same 600 points you could have 20 Fearless CSMs in Rhinos and 20 Plaguebearers, who are basically MEQs in cover.

Tough choice. Might depend on if you're infantry heavy or armor heavy army.

CannedKhorne wrote:
I have always wanted to run CSM Blob units as troops.

The main question is Bolter vs. CCW/Pistol.
-They always need fearless from some sort of upgrade (icon or HQ).
- Keep the pretty cheap, no more than 320 points I'd say.

Anyone every consider parking 2 20 man CSM units in the center of the table holding 2 objectives and have the rest of your army bring chaos to the enemy, while their are around 40 bolters shooting each turn, even more if targets get close.

I think its a good options for CSM troops other than PM, blob CSM units are the next choice for my army.

Also, saving a little points in larger games by have 2 troop units, allow for better points spent with other units or even allied forces. I can fit the BT I have always wanted to cause chaos with!

Any thoughts on 2 blob units. or it one enough?

You can mix the squad with some bolters...I would do 5/ 20 with bolters...

It's only 300 with MoS...but you are taking fabius if that's the case...465 or 1/4 of your 1850...

That's why I run the slaanesh lord as well...outflank with acute senses...

I typically take a 1st/2nd rd beating, but when they show up, the oh hell moment arises...any surviving models on my gun line typically live the rest of the game

It's very interesting to see how many are for running huge squads of Chaos Space Marines. Would you consider running them in a Spartan Land Raider?

It's more expensive than a normal one but its' cost should be compared to two Rhinos or more likely to two Land Raiders. One of the downsides is also that it takes up a Heavy support choice and then there's the question, do you even want them in a Spartan Land Raider when they could be outside soaking up damage?

 minigun762 wrote:

For example, 600 points buys you 40 Fearless CSMs. For the same 600 points you could have 20 Fearless CSMs in Rhinos and 20 Plaguebearers, who are basically MEQs in cover.

This math doesn't work out. You can't just have Plaguebearers without including some superfluous HQ choice somewhere, and those aren't free.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

For example, 600 points buys you 40 Fearless CSMs. For the same 600 points you could have 20 Fearless CSMs in Rhinos and 20 Plaguebearers, who are basically MEQs in cover.

This math doesn't work out. You can't just have Plaguebearers without including some superfluous HQ choice somewhere, and those aren't free.

Yes and no. If you include CSM HQ options like Bile, it adds a similar cost as adding a cheap Herald, so they are close enough to compare.

But you're right, it's not a perfect comparison.

I don't mean to belabor the point since you saw what I was getting at, but CSM can be Fearless without any outside interference by way of an Icon.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I don't mean to belabor the point since you saw what I was getting at, but CSM can be Fearless without any outside interference by way of an Icon.

You're absolutely right.

And I don't want to go off into a tangent discussion so I'll just say that daemon troops give us some equivalent options to CSM blobs, so they are worth considering as well.

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm flirting with the idea of a large squad of BP&CCW marines in with IoV who march up the board. Since you can't assault from Rhinos, why not just footslog it.
Probably give them flamer for overwatch or melta for tanks. Champ will have some kind of power weapon, I'm not sure.

FauxZerkers with 2 melta guns, IoW, Champ with a claw and combimelta and Kharn have done solid work for me. I didn't have enough dice to roll all of their attacks in one go (first time I've ever had "Ork Levels of dice". I see the appeal.)

That's really the way to look at CSMs, Orks in power armor.

Yep, that's what Chaos Space Marines are degraded to. GW apparently aren't fond of the image that Chaos Space Marines have kept their martial pride and that they still earn respect. Now they're reduced to how Abnett shows them in his books and in Ultramarines the movie. So sad and boring.

How about that Spartan Land Raider?

 Trevak Dal wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm flirting with the idea of a large squad of BP&CCW marines in with IoV who march up the board. Since you can't assault from Rhinos, why not just footslog it.
Probably give them flamer for overwatch or melta for tanks. Champ will have some kind of power weapon, I'm not sure.

FauxZerkers with 2 melta guns, IoW, Champ with a claw and combimelta and Kharn have done solid work for me. I didn't have enough dice to roll all of their attacks in one go (first time I've ever had "Ork Levels of dice". I see the appeal.)

That's really the way to look at CSMs, Orks in power armor.

Do you run your CSM with Kharn in a landraider or blob squad?

minigun762 wrote:MoS is only worth it as a method to get IoE but we already have IoV.

Was about to comment on this, until...

Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm flirting with the idea of a large squad of BP&CCW marines in with IoV who march up the board. Since you can't assault from Rhinos, why not just footslog it.
Probably give them flamer for overwatch or melta for tanks. Champ will have some kind of power weapon, I'm not sure.

why is Fabulous Bill not in the conversation? He makes 1 blob fearless and gives them the option to take MoS and IoE. Str5 init 5, 60 attacks on the charge
he can then sit in a different blob and give them fearless.

This guy...

jifel wrote:Why not 20 Fabius marines with Mark of Nurgle? Good luck killing that.

And this guy...

buddha wrote:Add Huron (for infiltrate) and a lvl3 unmarked sorc who rolls on telepathy. That sorc has a better than average change of getting invisibility which will turn that blob from scary to OMFG! I can't hurt it.

Don't mark the unit though as it is just a waste overall.

And finally this guy (sort of)...

The best three HQs to choose from for blob armies in my experience are Fabius, Huron, and the Telepathy Sorcerer. You'll have to pick which two suit you best (I've enjoyed Fabius and Huron together more because I seem to always hit Perils), but they really have great potential for force multiplying that only gets better with two large CSM squads. Huron and Fabius together can actually strength 3 squads if you find a way to do that.

Expensive? Of course it is. But we have very cheap/point-effective units in Cultists, Havocs and Helldrakes to make up for it, so it doesn't bother me one bit.

Considering the success people seem to be having with CSM blobs I don't understand why Rhino rush isn't working. It should be basically the same kind of tactics accept for 35 points you get 18" more real estate turn one + an additional target to shoot at.

I mean, blobs aren't assaulting before turn 3 either right? It's always seemed to me that 6 Rhinos loaded with dudes, all Turbo Boosting turn one, then what ever is still moving move+disembark turn 2, and start threatening assault turn 3 would be a pretty solid tactic. Of course, you would need to mix in some Spawn, or Bikes, or FMCs, or hounds or cavalry from Demons to make it work, give you something threaten assault turn 2 to take the heat off of your turn 3 wave...

Anyway, the potential seems to be there. I've never seen a CSM player commit to it though, so curious why that doesn't seem to work (or at least nobody is using it), by blobs hoofing all the way across the board does?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Considering the success people seem to be having with CSM blobs I don't understand why Rhino rush isn't working. It should be basically the same kind of tactics accept for 35 points you get 18" more real estate turn one + an additional target to shoot at.

I mean, blobs aren't assaulting before turn 3 either right? It's always seemed to me that 6 Rhinos loaded with dudes, all Turbo Boosting turn one, then what ever is still moving move+disembark turn 2, and start threatening assault turn 3 would be a pretty solid tactic. Of course, you would need to mix in some Spawn, or Bikes, or FMCs, or hounds or cavalry from Demons to make it work, give you something threaten assault turn 2 to take the heat off of your turn 3 wave...

Anyway, the potential seems to be there. I've never seen a CSM player commit to it though, so curious why that doesn't seem to work (or at least nobody is using it), by blobs hoofing all the way across the board does?

It's that Rhinos are pretty easy to kill. You as a Necron horde player should know how easy it is to strip a Rhino of it's hull points and leave those ten chaos space marines standing around like KOWARDZ AND FEWLZ once the safety of their METUL BAWKSES has been TAKEN AWAY.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Considering the success people seem to be having with CSM blobs I don't understand why Rhino rush isn't working. It should be basically the same kind of tactics accept for 35 points you get 18" more real estate turn one + an additional target to shoot at.

Two words -- first blood.

That mechanic means that you can easily lose the game by bringing a vehicle that's easy to kill.

*double post

I'm not so worried about first blood with rhinos as I am about the other effects. Popping a rhino can create a piece of terrain that can slow down an assault unit much worse than not being in a rhino. And just about everytime I see a rhino popped there is a template wielding unit just waiting for those poor passengers. I'm good with no rhinos, especially when I can buy more guys with those points.

On the 20 man mega-blob, I think it would make some real strides for assault. I can also see banners as being more bang for you buck with more guys, but you'll pay for it in marks before that. I could see both bolters and cc units having benefits. I would keep them all one, and just keep the unit focused to task.

I think 40 marines all with bolters sitting at mid-field is a strong defensive tactic, all shoot units hold mid-field and have fast assault units progress forward.

Huron or Fabius for HQ? I don't fabius is a good choice, Huron for infiltrate is nice.

Thoughts on 36 bolters, 2 PG, and 2 Autocannons shooting at mid-field? I think it is a good amount of fire power for troops...

I apologize for not reading every post leading up to the last and then commenting with opinion, but I have done it. It works well if you have Huron as HQ and he infiltrates the squad as close as you can get them. If you get 2 units you can throw him in or a chaplain (csm version). I'd prefer him because he has the heavy flamer for large units, and he is anti tank too, so throw some plasma or meltas in the squad and infiltrate them as close as can be and march them to the closest unit you can get too.

I play night lords, so i like the idea of being able to get a big squad (or maybe even two) as close as can be, and rushing them in. The trick is to have other targets the are juicy too, so he isn't focusing everything on the big unit right on his door step.

All this talk of Fabulous Bill is making me want to take him along with Huron. Infiltrating a big bad blob of enhanced marines could be very tasty. I'd still be losing out on Sorcerer utility.

 gpfunk wrote:
All this talk of Fabulous Bill is making me want to take him along with Huron. Infiltrating a big bad blob of enhanced marines could be very tasty. I'd still be losing out on Sorcerer utility.

Yep, it sounds very fun to play and could be competitive for some army builds.

I think Huron infiltrate is a solid tactic to use hold mid-field and dish out some serious support fire along with oblitz and helldrake.

It sounds like its worth trying out with Huron.
I would probably do 3 squads with Huron though.

Fabius makes squad 1 fearless by joining them (Fearless confers)
Fabius makes squad 2 fearless with his special ability.
Huron makes squad 3 fearless by joining them

You think 3 big blobs of CSM is too much, or are you saying for smaller squads?

Thoughts on Bolters or CCW?

 CannedKhorne wrote:
You think 3 big blobs of CSM is too much, or are you saying for smaller squads?

Thoughts on Bolters or CCW?

I think 3 is fine as long as you remember that a significant amount of your anti-infantry and anti-tank/TEQ (depending on the weapon) will be coming from your troops. That bothers people for some reason, that their troops actually provide significant firepower. Not I. Hard to do at 1K and under, but very flexible in 1.5K and up games.

I generally run two squads and I keep BOTH the CCW AND the Bolter. It's a bit more expensive, but I'm getting my money's worth every turn, especially if I get a good infiltrate roll. If I was to throw in a third Fabulous Bill squad I'd probably roll with two CSM squads with just bolters locking down midfield and then give the Bill Squad only the CCW, as they want to be making as much use of their enhancements as possible.

In a game that favors shooting, on the whole I would take Bolters + CCW for the additional points cost. The idea is you're adding melee effectiveness to a very shooty squad instead of removing shooting efficiency and cheapening them.

 gpfunk wrote:

 CannedKhorne wrote:
You think 3 big blobs of CSM is too much, or are you saying for smaller squads?

Thoughts on Bolters or CCW?

I think 3 is fine as long as you remember that a significant amount of your anti-infantry and anti-tank/TEQ (depending on the weapon) will be coming from your troops. That bothers people for some reason, that their troops actually provide significant firepower. Not I. Hard to do at 1K and under, but very flexible in 1.5K and up games.

I generally run two squads and I keep BOTH the CCW AND the Bolter. It's a bit more expensive, but I'm getting my money's worth every turn, especially if I get a good infiltrate roll. If I was to throw in a third Fabulous Bill squad I'd probably roll with two CSM squads with just bolters locking down midfield and then give the Bill Squad only the CCW, as they want to be making as much use of their enhancements as possible.

In a game that favors shooting, on the whole I would take Bolters + CCW for the additional points cost. The idea is you're adding melee effectiveness to a very shooty squad instead of removing shooting efficiency and cheapening them.

Makes perfect scene. How many points do your squads come to?

Noise marines can work in blobs, I think. I've never tried the full 20, but it shouldn't be worse than 15...

Infiltrating a blob of NM within 18" gives them an impressive opening volley to knock out infantry on foot. I play against someone who's fond of sticking pathfinders behind an aegis. One turn of NM shooting and the pathfinders evaporate. That's a big win for the rest of the army.

It's the only situation I've ever found sonic blasters to be worth the investment.

I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

 CannedKhorne wrote:
Makes perfect scene. How many points do your squads come to?

Don't have the codex on me but it ranges from around 265-300 and change. Depending on how you kit out the squad. Once I get my hands on my codex from home I could give you more specifics.


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 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

Then don't. I usually run Huron as my only HQ in lower point games. Fabulous Bill just sounds like a barrel of laughs. If you don't want to go for the lulz and would rather go straight competitive, you should just spend the points on Mr Blackheart. He allows you to infiltrate at least one of those CSM blobs so they can either start dakka-ing at the midfield line or start running towards the enemy in a frenzy.

 gpfunk wrote:

 CannedKhorne wrote:
Makes perfect scene. How many points do your squads come to?

Don't have the codex on me but it ranges from around 265-300 and change. Depending on how you kit out the squad. Once I get my hands on my codex from home I could give you more specifics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

Then don't. I usually run Huron as my only HQ in lower point games. Fabulous Bill just sounds like a barrel of laughs. If you don't want to go for the lulz and would rather go straight competitive, you should just spend the points on Mr Blackheart. He allows you to infiltrate at least one of those CSM blobs so they can either start dakka-ing at the midfield line or start running towards the enemy in a frenzy.

I really like the concept of hordes of mid-field marines shooting bolters, its a lot of shooting honestly, I am debating on giving them both CCW like you said and slow walk up the board shooting bolters/ maybe even rapid firing and walking to a future assault.

I am just concerned that staying on a objective with bolters, and then having purchased close CCW weapons will be a waste of 40 pts. I am trying to determine the tactics when having both weapons.

Huron is a badass HQ though, I have never used him, I plan to soon.

For bolter vs ccw, I think if you're looking for a midfield squad, I'd pick bolters.

I had originally thought of a more aggressive force, for claiming objectives and getting into the opponents backfield.

With 20 Noise Marines you can shoot ~ 38 AP5 ignores cover shots, after moving 6" forward. They are practically guaranteed to kill a squad the first turn, and they threaten anything within 18" the second turn. It's one of those tactics that can backfire spectacularly, but it also screams "DEAL WITH ME OR ELSE" and that has immense value. While the entire opposing army is scrambling to shoot or avoid that unit, the rest of your army is doing whatever it wants to do.

minigun762 wrote:I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

But look at what you get. The cost is high, but the value for what you spend is still good.

CannedKhorne wrote:Thoughts on Bolters or CCW?

As cool as the cheap bolt pistol and CCW are, I think I'd still take the bolter, because you can just do more with it. Longer range, better Ap, less risk of use, etc. With a BP+CCW on the charge, you get .66 Ap5 hits and 1 or 1.5 Ap- hits. With the bolters, you get 1.66 Ap5 hits shooting them (followed up by overwatch), and then .5 or .33 Ap- hits in close combat. Put another way, you're seeing a practical maximum average of 2.1 hits with the BP+CCW, most of which are Ap- and comparing it to 2.1 hits with the bolter, most of which are Ap5.

And then you add back in the bolter's longer range, etc., and the bolt gun is just better. Of course, you could always buy dudes with close combat weapons. A squad of 20 could take 10 CCWs for 1 point per model average, and put them in the back of the squad. No sense giving weapon upgrades to the guys in the front who are going to be killed off before you ever make it into close combat anyways.

My new list is going to be Mr. Blackheart with one 20 man squad, a 10 man terminator squad, and another 20 man squad. That should get peoples attention, until my heldrake comes in a starts torrenting them, as my vindicator and forgefiend sit in the back field blowing gak up!

True it sounds great but this is a game of chance and skill. but I personally think it is a fun list to play, that really offers a lot versatility, and a lot of prime targets to choose from.

Anyone thought of Ahriman to replace huron and a sorcerer? He is expensive, but three rolls on telepathy, whoo that sounds fun!

Too big of a tax really. As you said, he only gets 3 rolls on useful tables. He wants to shoot, but then buffs are better.. He has mace which isn't that good in CC especially for his point cost.

However, mass MEQ blobs is the only place where I can see him quite potent, replacing Huron and adding some buffs and mid range psychic dakka. That is if you group agrees with infiltration RAI, not RAW as it is now, which prohibits you to infiltrate IC's.

Now I'm tempted to give Ahri another go...

I'd go MoS for IoE and then tag on Fabius Bile for some S5, I5, FNP, and Fearless marines.

You're not getting much that huron and a lvl 2 sorcerer can't accomplish for the same price. Plus, the tyrant's claw gives armorbane and shred, which makes him more useful in close combat.

Moreover, other than the fact that he guarantees master of deception, he isn't even that much better than a lvl 3 sorcerer, a sorcerer who actually has options like terminator armor, etc.

 CannedKhorne wrote:
I really like the concept of hordes of mid-field marines shooting bolters, its a lot of shooting honestly, I am debating on giving them both CCW like you said and slow walk up the board shooting bolters/ maybe even rapid firing and walking to a future assault.

I am just concerned that staying on a objective with bolters, and then having purchased close CCW weapons will be a waste of 40 pts. I am trying to determine the tactics when having both weapons.

I don't consider them wasted just because of the tactical versatility it allows me. I have a lot of dakka and can cut any enemy trying to charge me down to size, and then, if they fail a long charge critically I can counter charge them next turm and do some massive damage. If they succeed then I still get the two attacks per model which can do some serious damage in blob numbers. I also consider the intangible benefits of having the extra attacks. Telling someone that you've got a blob of 20 3+ save models with three attacks each on the charge is usually enough to make them think twice.

And that's what it is for me. Having the bolters and the CCW mean that the CSM cannot be ignored in shooting or assault. They represent a tangible threat in every phase and they are hard to shift. Then you think about the fact that you'll have even shootier and more offensively minded units that will be doing damage every turn. So they choose to shoot at a very durable and dangerous troop choice, or they attempt to deal with your shooty/choppy support units. It's a lose lose situation for them.

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

I think people underestimate Ahriman. He's incredibly powerful, and appropriately costed. Gets the best warlord trait in the book. A lot of folks overlook him because he only makes 1k Sons troops. He has incredible offensive potential though.

 gpfunk wrote:

 CannedKhorne wrote:
I really like the concept of hordes of mid-field marines shooting bolters, its a lot of shooting honestly, I am debating on giving them both CCW like you said and slow walk up the board shooting bolters/ maybe even rapid firing and walking to a future assault.

I am just concerned that staying on a objective with bolters, and then having purchased close CCW weapons will be a waste of 40 pts. I am trying to determine the tactics when having both weapons.

I don't consider them wasted just because of the tactical versatility it allows me. I have a lot of dakka and can cut any enemy trying to charge me down to size, and then, if they fail a long charge critically I can counter charge them next turm and do some massive damage. If they succeed then I still get the two attacks per model which can do some serious damage in blob numbers. I also consider the intangible benefits of having the extra attacks. Telling someone that you've got a blob of 20 3+ save models with three attacks each on the charge is usually enough to make them think twice.

And that's what it is for me. Having the bolters and the CCW mean that the CSM cannot be ignored in shooting or assault. They represent a tangible threat in every phase and they are hard to shift. Then you think about the fact that you'll have even shootier and more offensively minded units that will be doing damage every turn. So they choose to shoot at a very durable and dangerous troop choice, or they attempt to deal with your shooty/choppy support units. It's a lose lose situation for them.

Your right, I think CCW and Bolters are very tactical versatile.

What would be the common tactic for such a sqaud, and if you plan to run two would you have them do different roles in the game?

Would you always play them as Mid-Field objective holders for fire support and just wait for someone to charge and then kick some ass in mid-field? What army would be best to leave mid-field and bolter fire until time to charge into there front lines... Tau?

I depends heavily on the scenario at hand, but I am just trying to get an idea for optimal tactics.


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k

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

Ahriman with 3 Oblitz for amssive fire power!! Haha, I don't play tzeentch for fluff reasons so it my suck...

Considering the point difference between a power weapon and giving the entire squad uber grit, I'd rather spend the points of boosting my champion.

 minigun762 wrote:
Considering the point difference between a power weapon and giving the entire squad uber grit, I'd rather spend the points of boosting my champion.

You'll always get more out of boosting the squad. I leave my champs naked so they can tank a character for a round before dying a glorious death for Khorne. My champions have never returned their investment. Even when I kit them out with a decent power weapon. Those extra AP- attacks always net me more kills-per-point than the maul or axe on the champ. It's either 15 points that never get used effectively or 40 points that get used every combat.


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 CannedKhorne wrote:
Your right, I think CCW and Bolters are very tactical versatile.

What would be the common tactic for such a sqaud, and if you plan to run two would you have them do different roles in the game?

Would you always play them as Mid-Field objective holders for fire support and just wait for someone to charge and then kick some ass in mid-field? What army would be best to leave mid-field and bolter fire until time to charge into there front lines... Tau?

I depends heavily on the scenario at hand, but I am just trying to get an idea for optimal tactics.

In general, you shoot what's choppy and you chop what's shooty. Generally against Tau you're going to want to press the issue. They can already remove your cover and put a lot of dakka into you, so sitting and trading shots with them is exactly the game they want you to play. Against other Space Marines, it's a toss up. Personally, I'll take my chances trading shots with them in the midfield because I have more bodies than they do. The thing with Ubergrit is it allows you to adapt to the army, it's very TAC. But as a catch all rule, pressure units that suck worse than you in CC and dakka those that are better than you in CC.

Both of my CSM blobs are identical and fulfill the same role. They occupy midfield and either press forward or maintain field presence. If you want to save points then you can have one unit be all Bolters and one be all CCW. They'll fulfill a specific role in that case. Bolters sit, score and dakka midfield. CCWs charge forward for the Kreamed Korn and take back field objectives and lock people in their deployment zone.

 gpfunk wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Considering the point difference between a power weapon and giving the entire squad uber grit, I'd rather spend the points of boosting my champion.

You'll always get more out of boosting the squad. I leave my champs naked so they can tank a character for a round before dying a glorious death for Khorne. My champions have never returned their investment. Even when I kit them out with a decent power weapon. Those extra AP- attacks always net me more kills-per-point than the maul or axe on the champ. It's either 15 points that never get used effectively or 40 points that get used every combat.


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 CannedKhorne wrote:
Your right, I think CCW and Bolters are very tactical versatile.

What would be the common tactic for such a sqaud, and if you plan to run two would you have them do different roles in the game?

Would you always play them as Mid-Field objective holders for fire support and just wait for someone to charge and then kick some ass in mid-field? What army would be best to leave mid-field and bolter fire until time to charge into there front lines... Tau?

I depends heavily on the scenario at hand, but I am just trying to get an idea for optimal tactics.

In general, you shoot what's choppy and you chop what's shooty. Generally against Tau you're going to want to press the issue. They can already remove your cover and put a lot of dakka into you, so sitting and trading shots with them is exactly the game they want you to play. Against other Space Marines, it's a toss up. Personally, I'll take my chances trading shots with them in the midfield because I have more bodies than they do. The thing with Ubergrit is it allows you to adapt to the army, it's very TAC. But as a catch all rule, pressure units that suck worse than you in CC and dakka those that are better than you in CC.

Both of my CSM blobs are identical and fulfill the same role. They occupy midfield and either press forward or maintain field presence. If you want to save points then you can have one unit be all Bolters and one be all CCW. They'll fulfill a specific role in that case. Bolters sit, score and dakka midfield. CCWs charge forward for the Kreamed Korn and take back field objectives and lock people in their deployment zone.

I like two squads with both CCW weapon and Bolter. I am going to go make a list now with these two units and see how I like it. I can't wait to test it out.

Do you add any PG or a Autocannon to the mix, or just leave it plan and simple?

Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

 minigun762 wrote:
Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

I believe the issue is that the champion is probably going to get in a challenge with something better than him and die before striking.

And not every unit in the game has 3+ armour.

I'd field them with bolters and an ADL

MoN will get you far. Huron can also help out a LOT here.

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

I believe the issue is that the champion is probably going to get in a challenge with something better than him and die before striking.

And not every unit in the game has 3+ armour.

That makes perfect sense but the flipside is giving your Champion an edge against other squad leaders meand you're getting boon rolls and removing their champion.

The whole forced challenge rule is a real gamble to be sure.

Part of me is just annoyed that they charge so much for that extra CCW.

After reading this thread, I had to try them out.

I took
Nurgle lord with a murder sword and 4++.
Level 3 sorc, spell familiar burning brand.
19 CSM with 16 ccw's and 2 flamers.
20 plague marines with 2 flamers.
2 helldrakes
2 tri plas preds.

guard allies
company command with las cannon,
vendetta with meltavets

I got lucky and got invis and endurance.

I ran the 19 marines up to the midfield objective with the chaos lord and and with invis and endurance up they were just godly. Full necron shooting phase (so much tesla) and 6 wraith assault only killed 5 of them, then I slowly ground down the wraiths.

Overall, they did much better than the 30 cultist I usually have running around with my chaos lord.

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

Ahriman with 3 Oblitz for amssive fire power!! Haha, I don't play tzeentch for fluff reasons so it my suck...

Tzeentch as a whole sucks in the current codex.

Looks like the lord of change will have to wait another four years.

 CannedKhorne wrote:
I like two squads with both CCW weapon and Bolter. I am going to go make a list now with these two units and see how I like it. I can't wait to test it out.

Do you add any PG or a Autocannon to the mix, or just leave it plan and simple?

I haven't ever used heavy weapons in my troops choices. I always run 2 x plasma generally as I like to occupy midfield. Melta guns work well too, just realize that you won't be getting as much return for your investment in exchange for higher reliability against vehicles that stray too close. You could try out a heavy weapon if you want. Especially if you plan on making a campfire on an objective, could add some serious firepower to the squad. Only problem is snap shots whenever you move, so it removes some of that tactical flexibility I like about the squad. You want to have the freedom to shift position if you need to advance or retreat, having a heavy weapon gives your mind pause as you think if you'd rather have those autocannon shots or field position, the latter generally being more useful.


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 minigun762 wrote:

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

I believe the issue is that the champion is probably going to get in a challenge with something better than him and die before striking.

And not every unit in the game has 3+ armour.

That makes perfect sense but the flipside is giving your Champion an edge against other squad leaders meand you're getting boon rolls and removing their champion.

The whole forced challenge rule is a real gamble to be sure.

Part of me is just annoyed that they charge so much for that extra CCW.

Part of me is annoyed that Champions of Chaos have to challenge, or I would always run power weapons on them. And that other person is right. Not everyone has 3+. Works even better versus hordes of orks and guardsmen, tau even. That claw isn't going to return its points at all if he ever comes against a serious IC. I go for the safer gamble. I always get those extra attacks, regardless of the circumstances. They can't challenge out all of the little CSM individually.

I think to have the most versatility, the CCW for the squad is a better choice than the power weapon just on a champ, if extra points are there grab both, but comparing the two I would buff the squad.

333 points for 20 marines with bolter/CCW with IoV. Is it worth it? Mid-field fire, walking up the board or infiltrated shooting bolters until time to assault? Good objective holders aslo...

Thoughts?

Take 20 csm MoK with bolters, 2 plasguns and votlw Throw in a cheap termie lord MoK or vanilla with a pf/LC (or AoBF).

Footslog mid.

Shoot at 24" 1 shot (18x st4 ap5 + 2x str 7 ap2)
When you get to the 12" rapidfire. giving up assault (36x str 4 ap5 + 4x str 7 ap2) The extra attack you get from the charge... YOU GET FROM THE RAPID FIRE. ITS MUCH EASIER TO SET UP A RAPID FIRE THAN A ASSAULT WITH 6E RHINOS. ITS AP5. (they get cover) YOU ALWAYS HIT ON 3+ (as oppose to 4+ equal or worse ws) YOU GET 1/6x EXTRA ATTACKS FROM OVERWATCH. (you lose attacks in subsequent rounds of cc) (YOU SHOULDNT NEED THEM IN SUBSEQUENT ROUNDS OF SHOOTING AOBF IS SILLY + 60 STR4 CC ATTACKS ISNT ANYTHING TO BE SNEEZED AT)
Overwatch (6x str 4 ap5)
Counter attack (60x str 4 ap- i4 + 6-12(deamon)x str 6 ap2 i5)
Challenge with your Aspiring champ leaving your AoBF free to carve up.

=50 str 4 ap5 shots, 6 str 7 ap2, 60 str 4 (cc), 6-12 str 6 ap2 (cc). I missed out a few little extras- like the lords shooting and the extra attack on the aspiring champ... still...

Dont forget votlw rerolling hits against 2/3 of the armies out there.

With:
20w t4 3+, 3w t4 2+ 5++

Note:
termie lord can be a bad idea for sweeping. if aobf consider power armour.

Thank me later. (SOZ MY CAPS KEEPS BREAKING)

Only thing that compares is the fab bile combos. Unmarked sorc is a fun thing too.
The problem with these blobs is you use one (or worse 2) of your hqs up. Our hqs are our (possibly) best slots. Is it really worth it to make one good csm squad? There are better army modifiers and csm troops that really dont need you to sink an hq for every unit to make them decent. Plague marines + noise marines. KB are trash :(.

CC csm is dead! Muhahahahahahaa i said it.

It's just not that easy. Remember that it should be two turns of assault which should be compared to one turn of shooting and the unit assaulted will also have a different damage output when in close combat, but very interesting indeed.

Ithani wrote:
Take 20 csm MoK with bolters, 2 plasguns and votlw Throw in a cheap termie lord MoK or vanilla with a pf/LC (or AoBF).

Footslog mid.

Shoot at 24" 1 shot (18x st4 ap5 + 2x str 7 ap2)
When you get to the 12" rapidfire. giving up assault (36x str 4 ap5 + 4x str 7 ap2) The extra attack you get from the charge... YOU GET FROM THE RAPID FIRE. ITS MUCH EASIER TO SET UP A RAPID FIRE THAN A ASSAULT WITH 6E RHINOS. ITS AP5. (they get cover) YOU ALWAYS HIT ON 3+ (as oppose to 4+ equal or worse ws) YOU GET 1/6x EXTRA ATTACKS FROM OVERWATCH. (you lose attacks in subsequent rounds of cc) (YOU SHOULDNT NEED THEM IN SUBSEQUENT ROUNDS OF SHOOTING AOBF IS SILLY + 60 STR4 CC ATTACKS ISNT ANYTHING TO BE SNEEZED AT)
Overwatch (6x str 4 ap5)
Counter attack (60x str 4 ap- i4 + 6-12(deamon)x str 6 ap2 i5)
Challenge with your Aspiring champ leaving your AoBF free to carve up.

=50 str 4 ap5 shots, 6 str 7 ap2, 60 str 4 (cc), 6-12 str 6 ap2 (cc). I missed out a few little extras- like the lords shooting and the extra attack on the aspiring champ... still...

Dont forget votlw rerolling hits against 2/3 of the armies out there.

With:
20w t4 3+, 3w t4 2+ 5++

Note:
termie lord can be a bad idea for sweeping. if aobf consider power armour.

Thank me later. (SOZ MY CAPS KEEPS BREAKING)

Only thing that compares is the fab bile combos. Unmarked sorc is a fun thing too.
The problem with these blobs is you use one (or worse 2) of your hqs up. Our hqs are our (possibly) best slots. Is it really worth it to make one good csm squad? There are better army modifiers and csm troops that really dont need you to sink an hq for every unit to make them decent. Plague marines + noise marines. KB are trash :(.

CC csm is dead! Muhahahahahahaa i said it.

Did you give them CCW and Bolters?

Just the bolter and their base attack. 20x csm, 2 plasma, MoK, VoTLW + Lord MoK AoBF VoTLW. (id consider giving the aspiring champ a power sword so he could trade out with a sergeant)

But then im bad and gave them an extra attack in cc. I also get the lords attacks wrong because i just took one attack off my juggerlord for giving up the charge when i should have taken another off for the jugger as well.

Ithani wrote:

Counter attack (60x str 4 ap- i4 + 6-12(deamon)x str 6 ap2 i5)

It should be 40x str 4 ap - i4 + 5-11(deamon) x str 6 ap2 i5

Sorry silly mistake.

Um as far as worrying about the 2nd round of combat- i5 on the lord is pretty handy (against i4 esp) and you have a great chance to clean up at the start of the 2nd round of combat (if there is one) but if you take the lord out the csm blob is still ahead on attacks for the first round of combat compared to the alternatives.

This csm blob is the most efficient cc blob that csm have against and is especially powerful (op even) against marine armies (rerolling votlw) up to the i5 step in the 2nd cc phase. If by then you havent done critical damage by the second i5 round of combat then you break even and if you get stuck in the 3rd round of combat then the extra cc wep + other MoK/MoN/MoS builds become stronger alternatives.

At the end of the day i just dont c any reliable way of getting csm troopies a charge without setting up the cc with bait or sacking another unit. Id just use the bolters and plasmas (alsoa serious threat) and encourage them to come to you in an engagement you can actually control.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to say you cant put the extra ccw on if you want. but its about keeping it cheap. Id rather save the points myself. Its 20 more attacks in the first and subsequent rounds of combat but you take the bolters first.

I must say I do like the idea of giving them MoK instead of the extra CCW. Could be interesting. Though with it that could be absolutely ludicrous. Maybe a bit of overkill. I'll need to try that out. I do like MoK CSM a lot better than Berserkers though. They do the same job for less points in exchange for not being fearless. But then again why would you not have a Lord with that kind of unit. I'm not sold on spending the points for VotLW. I don't think the extra point of leadership is worth it, but that's because there aren't enough Space Marines in my meta to make the Hatred worth it.

Wait, why?

A MoK just gives them an extra attack on the first round of close combat. The extra weapon gives them an extra attack on EVERY round of close combat.

More importantly, giving out MoK is something that can be achieved, for the same price, with wargear. That sounds a little bit like a waste of a mark to me. With the extra CCW, you have the ability to have +1A AND +1T or +1I (and access to FNP), rather than being stuck with only +1A and nothing else really to show for it.

I mean, if you're going themed, then of course, and if all you want is +A, then you can take both the CCW and the MoK. But taking MoK instead of CCWs... well... why?

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, why?

A MoK just gives them an extra attack on the first round of close combat. The extra weapon gives them an extra attack on EVERY round of close combat.

More importantly, giving out MoK is something that can be achieved, for the same price, with wargear. That sounds a little bit like a waste of a mark to me. With the extra CCW, you have the ability to have +1A AND +1T or +1I (and access to FNP), rather than being stuck with only +1A and nothing else really to show for it.

I mean, if you're going themed, then of course, and if all you want is +A, then you can take both the CCW and the MoK. But taking MoK instead of CCWs... well... why?

Eh, maybe you're right. It's late, I'm tired, I don't have my codex on hand. MoK is the mark I use the least. Almost exclusively relegated to use on combat lords. I can't remember if it's the mark or the IoW that gives them furious charge. If the mark itself gives them furious charge, that'd be some reason to take it over the extra CCW. I usually keep mine unmarked, I seriously don't see the usefulness of I5 over I4, due to the lack of Space Marines in my meta. Everything is either already faster than me (Eldar) or already slower than me (IG, Tau, Orks). I don't want to drop the points for FNP because that makes the unit way too expensive and goes beyond the original idea for these troops. Improved toughness could be worth it, but I still think it makes the unit more expensive than I'd like.

More than anything this thread has just encouraged me to stay the course with my original troops composition. 20 Vanilla CSM, 2 x Specials, Bolters and CCW.

 gpfunk wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, why?

A MoK just gives them an extra attack on the first round of close combat. The extra weapon gives them an extra attack on EVERY round of close combat.

More importantly, giving out MoK is something that can be achieved, for the same price, with wargear. That sounds a little bit like a waste of a mark to me. With the extra CCW, you have the ability to have +1A AND +1T or +1I (and access to FNP), rather than being stuck with only +1A and nothing else really to show for it.

I mean, if you're going themed, then of course, and if all you want is +A, then you can take both the CCW and the MoK. But taking MoK instead of CCWs... well... why?

Eh, maybe you're right. It's late, I'm tired, I don't have my codex on hand. MoK is the mark I use the least. Almost exclusively relegated to use on combat lords. I can't remember if it's the mark or the IoW that gives them furious charge. If the mark itself gives them furious charge, that'd be some reason to take it over the extra CCW. I usually keep mine unmarked, I seriously don't see the usefulness of I5 over I4, due to the lack of Space Marines in my meta. Everything is either already faster than me (Eldar) or already slower than me (IG, Tau, Orks). I don't want to drop the points for FNP because that makes the unit way too expensive and goes beyond the original idea for these troops. Improved toughness could be worth it, but I still think it makes the unit more expensive than I'd like.

More than anything this thread has just encouraged me to stay the course with my original troops composition. 20 Vanilla CSM, 2 x Specials, Bolters and CCW.

MoK gives rage and counterattack

I played aiirman for a long time and he rarely made his points back unless i was facing a psyker heavy list and he ate up alot points i coulda used else where.
personally i think the only place mot is useful is on termies any where else if you want to add durability your better off with mon for troops i think either blob csm or daka nm are better or as i like to call the rock stars

Take the extra cc wep for 2pts/ over the mok 2pts/.