I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced, and yet provided special rules and equipment for EIGHT different legions. Iron Warriors had access to more heavy support and different vehicles, Alpha Legion had different infantry options in the form of Cultists, and let's not get into what Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, etc, got!
4th, as we all know, was not very popular. Like a foul leech it sucked all of that delicious, juicy character and variation out of the army, not to mention taking away our daemon friends.
I was looking forward to 6th for a very long time, and through nobodies fault but my own, I got suckered into the rumours. I was hoping for a return to the glory days, and more. I'd heard about the ability to give FNP icons to units, and dreamt of -finally- having a 'proper' Death Guard army, where the Terminators and Bikers aren't less blessed by Papa Nurgle than the regular Plague Marines. I expected marks for vehicles. I expected.... well, I expected a lot of things, and I could go on all day. Needless to say, on release day the book was tossed aside and I was massively disappointed. I know a lot of people like the new 'dex, but Codex: Black LegionV2/Robot Dinosaurs just isn't for me.
I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!
So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM.
By this I mean, I've heard the Blood Angels book makes a very good option for playing Night Lords, due to both armies using masses of jump infantry.
I've considered playing the Dark Angels book as a band of renegades - The Deathwing Knights getting +1 Toughness for hugging is just as Nurgly as the current CSM book offers!
Could perhaps do a World Eaters army in the form of BA Death Company, perhaps?
Any ideas you can think of, just chuck them this way! Thank you for reading.
SirDigby wrote: I was looking forward to 6th for a very long time, and through nobodies fault but my own, I got suckered into the rumours. I was hoping for a return to the glory days, and more. I'd heard about the ability to give FNP icons to units, and dreamt of -finally- having a 'proper' Death Guard army, where the Terminators and Bikers aren't less blessed by Papa Nurgle than the regular Plague Marines. I expected marks for vehicles. I expected.... well, I expected a lot of things, and I could go on all day.
You can buy marks for bikers/terminators, k'now... Actually Nurgle bikers are almost universally regarded as one of the best choices in the 'dex.
Playing DA as Nurgle would be a waste IMO. Sacrificing Plague Marines, zombies, FNP icons and marks for the honestly not-so-shiny Deathwing Knights? I reckon some legions/gods have been badly hit by the new dex. Khorne took a big hit with the 6th ed. assault rules and the inability to charge from Rhinos. Tzeentch is simply abysmal. There's no way to assemble a fluffy Alpha Legion army these days (here's me hoping for them getting a codex suplement in the future). In those few cases, feel free to run a proxy army (Tzeentch can be easily represented by Grey Knights, Blood Angels as Khorne won't be too much of a stretch either) but if you're running Nurgle or Slaanesh just use the current rules. It won't get any better than this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, welcome to Dakka!
The problem I have with running a Death Guard army under the current CSM rules, is that our Bikes, Terminators, etc, can't take FNP. It's a small point, but it just really bugs me that Terminators (Described as 'veterans' in their entry) are less favoured by Nurgle than the standard Plague Marine troop choices. I realise you can still make a very viable Death Guard list, but it makes me nerdrage when I see the FNP Icon as Slaanesh-only.
Tzeentch as Grey Knights is an awesome idea, I didn't think of that!
I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced, and yet provided special rules and equipment for EIGHT different legions. Iron Warriors had access to more heavy support and different vehicles, Alpha Legion had different infantry options in the form of Cultists, and let's not get into what Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, etc, got!
4th, as we all know, was not very popular. Like a foul leech it sucked all of that delicious, juicy character and variation out of the army, not to mention taking away our daemon friends.
I was looking forward to 6th for a very long time, and through nobodies fault but my own, I got suckered into the rumours. I was hoping for a return to the glory days, and more. I'd heard about the ability to give FNP icons to units, and dreamt of -finally- having a 'proper' Death Guard army, where the Terminators and Bikers aren't less blessed by Papa Nurgle than the regular Plague Marines. I expected marks for vehicles. I expected.... well, I expected a lot of things, and I could go on all day. Needless to say, on release day the book was tossed aside and I was massively disappointed. I know a lot of people like the new 'dex, but Codex: Black LegionV2/Robot Dinosaurs just isn't for me.
I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!
So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM.
By this I mean, I've heard the Blood Angels book makes a very good option for playing Night Lords, due to both armies using masses of jump infantry.
I've considered playing the Dark Angels book as a band of renegades - The Deathwing Knights getting +1 Toughness for hugging is just as Nurgly as the current CSM book offers!
Could perhaps do a World Eaters army in the form of BA Death Company, perhaps?
Any ideas you can think of, just chuck them this way! Thank you for reading.
I have been playing the army since 3rd Ed. It was a missed opportunity and a rushed effort.
There are so many just plain $hit units, it's terrible. There are also really bad internal balance problems.
It's shameful really, and just slightly better than 4th. Instead of dual lash + 9 oblits we have 2-3 Heldrakes and plague marines.
You can't make a competitive list with Khorne Berzerkers, Possessed, Helbrutes, Defilers, Mutilators, or Warp Talons. Terminators, Forge Fiend, Raptors
are just meh. These units are like 75% of the book. So you tell me, is it a good book? No it is not - it is a failure.
If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong.
"Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.
MWHistorian wrote: If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong.
"Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.
No it definitely is not a good selling point. The other scary thing is how relatively new it is. It hasn't been out very long, and it is already showing major problems.
It is virtually impossible to make an army out of the CSM book by itself that will win a major tournament. In fact, I would say it can't be done in the current meta. The options
are just not there, and 2-3 Heldrakes isn't going to do it.
I have been playing the army since 3rd Ed. It was a missed opportunity and a rushed effort.
There are so many just plain $hit units, it's terrible. There are also really bad internal balance problems.
It's shameful really, and just slightly better than 4th. Instead of dual lash + 9 oblits we have 2-3 Heldrakes and plague marines.
You can't make a competitive list with Khorne Berzerkers, Possessed, Helbrutes, Defilers, Mutilators, or Warp Talons. Terminators, Forge Fiend, Raptors
are just meh. These units are like 75% of the book. So you tell me, is it a good book? No it is not - it is a failure.
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.
The problem I have with running a Death Guard army under the current CSM rules, is that our Bikes, Terminators, etc, can't take FNP. It's a small point, but it just really bugs me that Terminators (Described as 'veterans' in their entry) are less favoured by Nurgle than the standard Plague Marine troop choices. I realise you can still make a very viable Death Guard list, but it makes me nerdrage when I see the FNP Icon as Slaanesh-only.
Tzeentch as Grey Knights is an awesome idea, I didn't think of that!
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought in the 3.5 dex nurgle units did not get FNP either? FNP is nice but I dont think its a hallmark of nurgle. Its all about the extra toughness.
Overall I like the new dex, except for the dino bots.
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.
You mean like how Bikes are 2 points more than Raptors, move faster, get +1 T, 5+ cover, HoW(all the time), twinlinked botlers and relentless while at the same time only needing 3 models to get 2 special weapons?
Or do you mean how warp talons are 4 points per model more than possessed and get 12" jump move, DS, blind strike, Shred(all the time), AP3(all the time), and HoW(sometimes).
I have been playing the army since 3rd Ed. It was a missed opportunity and a rushed effort.
There are so many just plain $hit units, it's terrible. There are also really bad internal balance problems.
It's shameful really, and just slightly better than 4th. Instead of dual lash + 9 oblits we have 2-3 Heldrakes and plague marines.
You can't make a competitive list with Khorne Berzerkers, Possessed, Helbrutes, Defilers, Mutilators, or Warp Talons. Terminators, Forge Fiend, Raptors
are just meh. These units are like 75% of the book. So you tell me, is it a good book? No it is not - it is a failure.
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.
That second GK list was so horribly unoptimized that I'm surprised you even counted it.
If you though the 3rd edition CSM dex was balanced than you must have played Iron Warriors... and I'll bet none of your friends agreed with you heh.
That codex did have a TON of character and cool fluff integration but it was too varied to be realistically balanced. The newest codex is not without flaws (like every codex ever) but it is fairly balanced and working it's way back to having more character... with the 'codex supplements' I expect things to get a lot more interesting for Chaos.
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.
You mean like how Bikes are 2 points more than Raptors, move faster, get +1 T, 5+ cover, HoW(all the time), twinlinked botlers and relentless while at the same time only needing 3 models to get 2 special weapons?
Or do you mean how warp talons are 4 points per model more than possessed and get 12" jump move, DS, blind strike, Shred(all the time), AP3(all the time), and HoW(sometimes).
Raptors are 3 points less. Oddly enough that's the mark of Nurgle that will make the model T5. They also gain the ability to deep strike.
Plus, if the bikes cost more we'd all be complaining about how over costed they are. 3.5 dex had the difference between the two units be 5 points.
The problem I have with running a Death Guard army under the current CSM rules, is that our Bikes, Terminators, etc, can't take FNP. It's a small point, but it just really bugs me that Terminators (Described as 'veterans' in their entry) are less favoured by Nurgle than the standard Plague Marine troop choices. I realise you can still make a very viable Death Guard list, but it makes me nerdrage when I see the FNP Icon as Slaanesh-only.
Tzeentch as Grey Knights is an awesome idea, I didn't think of that!
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought in the 3.5 dex nurgle units did not get FNP either? FNP is nice but I dont think its a hallmark of nurgle. Its all about the extra toughness.
The problem is we've got a book fundamentally trying to do two different things as a result of the previous books redefinition of certain things. There are original Cult Legions, and then there are "marked" units that are also dedicated to a god but aren't quite the same thing. Plague Marines were transformed by the Destroyer virus, Nurgle dedicated marines, while enjoying Nurgles blessing, aren't the same thing. A Thousand Son is a marine that has survived, either as a mutation free psyker or a suit of animate armor, the Rubric of Ahriman, while a Tzeentch dedicated marine has not. A World Eater's Berzerker has undergone the psycho-lobotomization surgery, a Khorne dedicate marine has not.
As such, It's not about the FNP per se, but the inconsistency. Essentially, the only true "cult legion" units available are the "unlockable" troops, while everything else is the "marked" non-Cult legion stuff. There is an option for true Death Guard Plague Marines, but not for Death Guard Plague Terminators, just Nurgle Dedicated Terminators, which are not the same thing.
bogalubov wrote:
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally.
Hrm, not so much. FA is dominated by the Heldrake, followed by Bikers which are clearly superior to Raptors, while Warp Talons are just awful. HS is generally "oblits or go home" due to the vehicle changes for 6E, Most of the Elites really are just "locked troops" (of which two aren't really used) and of what's left largely only Terminators have a particularly good use, etc.
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.
You mean like how Bikes are 2 points more than Raptors, move faster, get +1 T, 5+ cover, HoW(all the time), twinlinked botlers and relentless while at the same time only needing 3 models to get 2 special weapons?
Raptors are 3 points less. Oddly enough that's the mark of Nurgle that will make the model T5. They also gain the ability to deep strike.
Plus, if the bikes cost more we'd all be complaining about how over costed they are. 3.5 dex had the difference between the two units be 5 points.
But vets of the long war for bikes is 1 point, where as for raptors it is 2 points. Both units want to get into combat, and hatred makes them so much better in it. Why more for raptors?
No, the new CSM book IS NOT balanced. To be blunt, it is a turd. It can't win big events by itself (I dare you to try).
Phil Kelly said he made it to be on par with regular space marines. But, when the new space marine book comes out, a ben franklin says it will eclipse it.
It is a failure of a book. It should be one of the strongest books. They are 10,000 year old super soliders empowered by the dark gods.
You can make a reasonable list with it, but it is nowhere what it should be.
While you'll have to wait, I feel supplements will remedy the codex. Just think of the possibilities with an Iron Warriors supplement! I figure that was GWs intention. They will make more money with supplements, but it will also allow them to add a LOT to each supplement on top of the dex.
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
I agree with this. People will say Heldrakes and Obliterators dominate and ruin the balance, but I think that's just because those units are so easy to use effectively that everyone takes them.
If you look at it this way, pretty much every list can benefit from the addition of nurgle obliterators, but not every list can benefit from the addition of a Predator. Taking a Predator is not just a simple matter of adding it to your list, you also need to think of armor saturation. Using Predators, or perhaps Helbrutes, requires more planning. Its not that the units are bad, its just that people do not use them correctly.
It is a failure of a book. It should be one of the strongest books. They are 10,000 year old super soliders empowered by the dark gods.
This line of reasoning broke 7th edition in Fantasy. The books should be as equal as possible, even a theoretical "Codex: Squirrels with Crustacean allies" should have a fair chance to beat "Codex: God".
UnadoptedPuppy wrote: While you'll have to wait, I feel supplements will remedy the codex. Just think of the possibilities with an Iron Warriors supplement! I figure that was GWs intention. They will make more money with supplements, but it will also allow them to add a LOT to each supplement on top of the dex.
How will supplements help the base balance of the book? Unless they suddenly start changing points costs in them, it's not gonna help a thing.
UnadoptedPuppy wrote: While you'll have to wait, I feel supplements will remedy the codex. Just think of the possibilities with an Iron Warriors supplement! I figure that was GWs intention. They will make more money with supplements, but it will also allow them to add a LOT to each supplement on top of the dex.
How will supplements help the base balance of the book? Unless they suddenly start changing points costs in them, it's not gonna help a thing.
I think the hope is that the supplements will allow you to ignore most of the base book in favour of supplemental options that will be balanced with the rest of 6th edition and each other.
I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?
You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.
You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.
Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.
Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.
If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.
Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.
I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced,
Relative to what?
Relative to everything else Games Workshop ever published in the last 30 years, at the very least, it holds the honour of being the most unbalanced piece of gak ever conceived.
Ailaros wrote: I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?
You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.
You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.
Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.
Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.
If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.
Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.
Well said!
I find myself becoming more and more embarresed to be a CSM player than ever before because of all the silly whining and b****ing about how we didn't go back in time a decade and get a broken as filth codex again.
Yes, the new book isn't perfect - there's always things that could have been slightly tweeked here and there and made a bit better. But this book overall is pretty damn good with only 1 really glaring WTF?! moment being the Helturkey.
Almost everything can be made to work, (yes, even Warptalons!), and while the new codex won't pilot itself to tournament domination the way some books can/have done, it's not as if the book is unplayably bad ala 7th edition O&G's or the current Fantasy Daemon book is.
Overall it's a good middle-of-the-road codex that needs some thought & planning to get the most out of it. Sure it looks below par when compared to the busted books of 5th edition like SW's or GK's or BA's. But compare it to the other 6th ed books thus far and it holds its own.
Ailaros wrote: I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?
You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.
You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.
Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.
Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.
If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.
Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.
Well said!
I find myself becoming more and more embarresed to be a CSM player than ever before because of all the silly whining and b****ing about how we didn't go back in time a decade and get a broken as filth codex again.
It's not that people want a super broken codex, it's that the current codex, even leaving aside competitiveness, does a poor job of portraying CSM's as I explained earlier. That fact that it's competitiveness is mediocre (aside from heldrake spam) just compounds the issue because even when you can make an army that adheres well to the fluff, very often it's basically incompetent on the table, but competitiveness isn't the core of it.
I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced,
Relative to what?
Relative to everything else Games Workshop ever published in the last 30 years, at the very least, it holds the honour of being the most unbalanced piece of gak ever conceived.
Compared to BA they were balanced. Though I only played Emp children without the most OP chaos lord, so I wouldn't really know.
The new dex isn't awful, just flawed. It has many issues. The core of which seems to be not competitiveness but a lack of proper character and the inabilty to make a real fluffy army. For those that play for fun and to whom the tournament scene is beyond total irrelevance this can be quite a burden. I've seen it and think it's a solid book, but that doesn't mean it's beyond reproach and could still be massively improved.
Also, Ailaros I'm going to assume you don't play Chaos because your argument is deeply flawed. However I shall not be bothering to correct you as I intend to practice my karoke instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a quick aside though, I think we can all agree the real issue is where is Codex: Squirrels. I would love that. Squirrels being one of the more amazing woodland creatures. The lack of any woodland codex is a severe oversight on GW part when you really stop and think isn't it?
Ailaros wrote: I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?
You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.
You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.
Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.
Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.
If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.
Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.
When you say fluffy you mean bad right ? because it doesn't realy matter how many 1kson unit a chaos army takes , when tzeench lore is bad and tzeench lesser sorc are bad. The gigant pile of vehicles comes down to helldrakes , the heavy support ones aren't used , because one is bad and the other is worse then nurgle oblit.
No, I don't mean bad. You can win with fluffy lists.
I think the first thing that any reader of this thread should do is strip away all of the pointless and reasonless negativity and hate. You're left with a codex that has lots of options and opportunities, and has plenty of ways that you can play things and win games. Taking a few moments to do the math on "awful" units even shows them fairly priced for what you get.
The only thing I'd say really let me down about the current codex is the structure of the codex itself. Let's say I'm looking at a chaos lord. It says I can take a mark. So I turn back to the wargear list. It says how much a mark costs, but not what it does. So then I have to go even further back, over the pictures section and find out that a mark of khorne gives furious charge. Now, after having had to look in three different places in the codex, I now have to go to the rulebook to look up what furious charge is. It's absurd. I mean, it's so poorly layed out that it needs an INDEX. For just 20 pages of rules. What kind of idiocy is that?
And the worst part is that there's so much reduplication that they didn't have as much space for fluff, which I'd also agree is somewhat sad in the new codex. They could easily have freed up a few pages if they had done things right to at least give a brief overview of what the different chaos gods were.
Other than that, I guess you've just got to bring your umbrella of reason to keep yourself clean from the emotional poopstorm that everyone else seems to be pitching.
Also, Ailaros I'm going to assume you don't play Chaos because your argument is deeply flawed. However I shall not be bothering to correct you as I intend to practice my karoke instead.
He does, and he's had success with stuff that's apparently "bad".
Its a usable codex, sure. You can make some interesting armies sure. But it's boring and that's the greatest sin when it comes to a game that's supposed to be for fun.
Tzeench sorcerers, the guys that get their powers from the god that basically created magic; suck
Zerkers, the kings of close combat: suck
1kSons, priced like termintors, die like marines.
Warp Talons, suck. (over priced with no grenades.)
no options for land raiders. (They make dino bots but can't make their own LR varients?)
took away noise marine weapons for dreadnaughts. (fluffy)
took away cult terminators (fluffy and competitive)
no fluffy options for vehicles like warp fire cannons or whatever.
Defiler has giant cannon, can fire that or his other guns. Not both. Fragile, too expensive.
No assault transports for zerkers unless you want to spend half your points on crappy land raiders.
No legion specific rules. (what if I don't want to take Huron for an alpha Legion army.)
It's all just kind of basic and bland. Not awful. Even with the above flaws its still very playable, but compared to what it should have been, it's a missed opportunity.
So I turn back to the wargear list. It says how much a mark costs, but not what it does. So then I have to go even further back, over the pictures section and find out that a mark of khorne gives furious charge.
Which it doesn't, it gives rage/counter-attack.
Only the banner gives furious charge (Unless you're a Bezerker, who automatically has FC)
Also, Ailaros I'm going to assume you don't play Chaos because your argument is deeply flawed. However I shall not be bothering to correct you as I intend to practice my karoke instead.
He does, and he's had success with stuff that's apparently "bad".
One lucky win and a win against a terrible GK list? Ok then. Lets see him play Tau and get completely wrecked and then make a complaint thread like he did with guard. Plus he's only played 2 games. Statistical outliers can happen.
Also, Ailaros I'm going to assume you don't play Chaos because your argument is deeply flawed. However I shall not be bothering to correct you as I intend to practice my karoke instead.
He does, and he's had success with stuff that's apparently "bad".
One lucky win and a win against a terrible GK list? Ok then. Lets see him play Tau and get completely wrecked and then make a complaint thread like he did with guard. Plus he's only played 2 games. Statistical outliers can happen.
I wanna see him against Eldar myself, what with the skimmers and such.
The only thing I'd say really let me down about the current codex is the structure of the codex itself. Let's say I'm looking at a chaos lord. It says I can take a mark. So I turn back to the wargear list. It says how much a mark costs, but not what it does. So then I have to go even further back, over the pictures section and find out that a mark of khorne gives furious charge. Now, after having had to look in three different places in the codex, I now have to go to the rulebook to look up what furious charge is. It's absurd. I mean, it's so poorly layed out that it needs an INDEX. For just 20 pages of rules. What kind of idiocy is that?
And the worst part is that there's so much reduplication that they didn't have as much space for fluff, which I'd also agree is somewhat sad in the new codex. They could easily have freed up a few pages if they had done things right to at least give a brief overview of what the different chaos gods were.
This!
I hate the organization of the 'dex. So much so that I've taken to creating my own tables and supplements to organize the information so that I can find it in one place without having to thumb back-and-forth between sections! And don't get me started on having to refer to the rule book to find out what "Hatred" means, or the multiple times even in the rulebook that I find an entry, only to be referred to another entry (but no page number!).
I guess I *sort* of understand why it needs to refer to the core rulebook - in the event that the rulebook changes or gets an FAQ entry...but still...sheesh!
The only thing I'd say really let me down about the current codex is the structure of the codex itself. Let's say I'm looking at a chaos lord. It says I can take a mark. So I turn back to the wargear list. It says how much a mark costs, but not what it does. So then I have to go even further back, over the pictures section and find out that a mark of khorne gives furious charge. Now, after having had to look in three different places in the codex, I now have to go to the rulebook to look up what furious charge is. It's absurd. I mean, it's so poorly layed out that it needs an INDEX. For just 20 pages of rules. What kind of idiocy is that?
And the worst part is that there's so much reduplication that they didn't have as much space for fluff, which I'd also agree is somewhat sad in the new codex. They could easily have freed up a few pages if they had done things right to at least give a brief overview of what the different chaos gods were.
This!
I hate the organization of the 'dex. So much so that I've taken to creating my own tables and supplements to organize the information so that I can find it in one place without having to thumb back-and-forth between sections! And don't get me started on having to refer to the rule book to find out what "Hatred" means, or the multiple times even in the rulebook that I find an entry, only to be referred to another entry (but no page number!).
I guess I *sort* of understand why it needs to refer to the core rulebook - in the event that the rulebook changes or gets an FAQ entry...but still...sheesh!
-Aeglos
Agreed... the organization of the book is pure - chaos ...hey!
The only thing I'd say really let me down about the current codex is the structure of the codex itself. Let's say I'm looking at a chaos lord. It says I can take a mark. So I turn back to the wargear list. It says how much a mark costs, but not what it does. So then I have to go even further back, over the pictures section and find out that a mark of khorne gives furious charge. Now, after having had to look in three different places in the codex, I now have to go to the rulebook to look up what furious charge is. It's absurd. I mean, it's so poorly layed out that it needs an INDEX. For just 20 pages of rules. What kind of idiocy is that?
And the worst part is that there's so much reduplication that they didn't have as much space for fluff, which I'd also agree is somewhat sad in the new codex. They could easily have freed up a few pages if they had done things right to at least give a brief overview of what the different chaos gods were.
This!
I hate the organization of the 'dex. So much so that I've taken to creating my own tables and supplements to organize the information so that I can find it in one place without having to thumb back-and-forth between sections! And don't get me started on having to refer to the rule book to find out what "Hatred" means, or the multiple times even in the rulebook that I find an entry, only to be referred to another entry (but no page number!).
I guess I *sort* of understand why it needs to refer to the core rulebook - in the event that the rulebook changes or gets an FAQ entry...but still...sheesh!
-Aeglos
Maybe the iPad version would be better with the pop ups? I kid there. I just wonder if this was GW plan so the iPad version seems more enticing.
I sort of agree with the CSM codex and disagree with it.
The things I disagree with: -No Dreadclaw drop pods (ever since I saw the SM codex in 2008 with the plastic drop pod, I had hoped the CSM would get a variation of DP as well, then 'Nids came along with their own variation of DP, you know the most alien of all Xeno's get a variation of DP so this would led me to believe foolishly I may add that CSM would have their own DP... Oh no they got b***** Helldrakes instead)... I always wanted to make a drop pod list.
-1k sons suck harder then a lone squig. this was the legion I initially started out as, as I really liked Ahriman's fluff, I started out with the 4th ed. codex, which was horrible and the 1k sons I really liked but in every competitive game I had played made them into a dust pile, so without further option I had changed my warband to an custom undivided warband I have made (since I really liked the colours of my paintjob on my CSM)
-our playstyle did not change much, as in its still plague spam with added noise marines and Helldrakes, whether the Tau and the Eldar really got a big boost and changed their playstyle they got new rules which does indeed make me jealous and tbh a tad angry, but this would be going into my CSM/GW relationship theory...
-There was not further delving into the codex: When I say this I mean they added new units such as Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles, BUT they did not delve in to these, for example they could have added a variation of servitor but no they did not.
things I liked in this Edition:
-Daemon machines: I really like to mech up and I liked the Idea of Defilers, so more Daemon Machines are great
-Boon table: I like this because (although its a slim chance) I can turn a champ into a Daemon prince
-Warpsmiths: love these guys so much, so glad they made a beautiful models with it.
All in all I feel this Codex is sort of gimmicky or only for the casual gamer, (which I am, which is also great and I am very thankful that my Gaming area is also Casual atm as well) and tbh this isn't really codex CSM competitively, it is Codex Plague Dupstep Turkeys.
So your argument is that things aren't bad, they're boring, and then most of the examples you give of how they're boring is because they're bad.
Hmm...
Way to use your reading comprehension there. I said, in spite of the suckitude the codex has, it's really not awful. The biggest sin is that's its boring.
I'll say it another way just in case. Third time's the charm.
The codex has some major functional issues. Yes. But it's still a workable codex and has some fun options. The biggest problem is that's its bland, unlfavorful and boring. (not a lot of story driven ideas there.)
You don't, in any way, need to play plague marines and helldrakes. You don't need to play plague marines and helldrakes to be competitive.
If you say "the only thing I like are a couple of units, therefore the codex only has a couple of units, which makes the codex boring" it's YOU MAKING the codex boring, not the sign of a boring codex.
Ok, let me preface this with: my primary army is Thousand Sons. I have a beautifully painted Thousand Sons army, and I regularly take them to both local tournaments and GTs and do decently well with them. In my local scene particularly, I do very well. That said...
The real issue with the 6th edition Chaos Marine book is that it doesn't support the armies that people want to play. GW has given us this AMAZING backstory with chaos legions, the Horus Heresy, chaos gods, and then given us a codex that doesn't represent that at all. When I look at the 6th edition Chaos book (and the last one, for that matter) what I see is a book intended to represent chaos renegade forces.
I think a comparison best illustrates this. If I wanted to start an Eldar army, and I really enjoyed the fluff of Ulthwe, I'm given some background guidance (Ulthwe is heavily focused in psychic powers, and they utilize black guardians) but at the end of the day, an Ulthwe force can contain EVERY unit in the Eldar codex. This allows an Ulthwe player to use the full width and breadth of his codex to build everything from purely fluffy lists to extreme competitive ones. On the other hand, we have my Thousand Sons army. I'm given some background guidance (the Thousand Sons are heavily psychic focused, every marine is either a psyker or dust in a suit of armor, they worship Tzeentch). But unlike the Ulthwe army, there are numerous units in my codex that do not belong in my Thousand Sons force. Ignoring small issues like Tzeentch-marked Terminators not actually being Thousand Sons terminators (which while annoying, is a battle I gave up on long ago), I'm still playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY reduced codex. I can't speak for the other chaos legion players, but I have a feeling they'd probably agree with me.
Now, you may argue that there's nothing preventing me from running Plague Marines, or a Khorne lord on a Juggernaut, or anything else for that matter, but I believe that the fluff is very clear, those units don't belong in a Thousand Sons army. Games Workshop has sold me on an army concept and then failed to deliver the rules to support it. Imagine if the background for Iyanden stated that every living Eldar on the craftworld was dead, and only the Wraith constructs were left. Iyanden players would be limited to a very small number of units if they wished to remain consistent with the background. Sure, they can take all of the other units, but they would have to paint them in the colors of other craftworlds. It wouldn't be an Iyanden army any more, it'd be a coalition of Eldar forces. I doubt Iyanden players would be very happy with the current Eldar book if that was the case.
I hope what you're getting from this isn't "I want the Chaos book to be all powerful and crush everyone, with millions of options." What I hope you get from this is that I want to have access to a full codex's list of options and units regardless of the theme I choose to play (without completely overpowering the player who chooses to ignore fluff and take simply the most powerful options), instead of having each theme limit me to a fraction of the codex. I've stopped expanding my Thousand Sons army because I won't ever use more than the models I have in a single game. My list of thematic choices removes a large number of possibilities from the codex, and every one of those is a unit that I will never buy or paint. Not only is this frustrating for me as a player, but I can't imagine GW is happy with the situation either- they've produced many kits that supposedly cater to my chosen army, but that I will never purchase.
Why does GW print dozens of books about the Horus Heresy and the traitor legions, and then give us codex: renegade chapters? In this codex it is impossible to represent a 41st Millennium chaos legion...except MAYBE Black Legion. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the codex, it's not over powered. It's fairly balanced and you can make some interesting armies...but it's not CSM as we know and love. It's a codex of missed opportunities fluff wise. some simple fixes could really help this codes. ectoplasma cannons on the land raider, blast masters on the forgefiends, cult terminators etc etc etc. These are simple, not over powered, and add a lot of fluff that really screams CHAOS. But alas, we have a codex filled with units with bi-polar rules (mutilators, warptalons etc), are severely overcosted (1K sons, defilers etc) or just don't represent the Legions we know and love. I still love chaos space marines, and will still play them but the codex leaves me with a feeling of blaaah.
I have to disagree. Yes, I really miss the hey-day of 4th where you could tailor your codex by picking from a selection of army traits to make you force unique, or at least having different special rules for every legion (in the case of the Chaos 'dex).
On the otherhand, I think overall the CSM book isn't all that bad. True when held up against the likes of the Tau and Eldar books, it can be a little uninspiring and yes, there are a few very pants units in there. But it's strength lies in it's versatility. You want an assault list. You can do it, (but with only Landraiders as assault vehicles, it'lll be expensive unless you take an assaulting bike army). You want shooty? It does that too. You wan't a mix of both? Yes, it can be done.
It's the sheer number of lists I can put together that sells the codex for me. I can field a Nurgle army one day, a Khorne one the next or I can mix-and-match powers here and there.
I think CCM in 6th is what DE were in 5th: a versatile codex that lets you build an army for every occassion, rather than forcing you to use the same handful of lists over and over again (Helldrakes not withstanding. I don't own even one, and I've never felt crippled by their absence from my army).
So yes, it is a flawed book. But a handful of crap units, a small number of meh units and a lack of legion customisation options does not make it a bad codex.
But I'm digressing. If you really feel you must use a difference codex to get the feel of a specific legion, don't overlook the customisation options provided by allies.
CSM and IG works well for Alpha Legion (old style fluff) or Word Bearers.
CSM and Death Korps of Kreig works well for Iron Warriors
Blood Angels worrks well for Night Lords
Necrons work well for Dark Mekanicus
Grey Knights work extremely well for Thousand Sons.
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Ailaros wrote: That's boring players, not a boring codex.
You don't, in any way, need to play plague marines and helldrakes. You don't need to play plague marines and helldrakes to be competitive.
If you say "the only thing I like are a couple of units, therefore the codex only has a couple of units, which makes the codex boring" it's YOU MAKING the codex boring, not the sign of a boring codex.
Once again, I find myself agreeing 100% with Aliaros when it comes to CSM. Which is odd given how often we've disagreed in the past concerning the IG.
Ailaros wrote: That's boring players, not a boring codex.
You don't, in any way, need to play plague marines and helldrakes. You don't need to play plague marines and helldrakes to be competitive.
If you say "the only thing I like are a couple of units, therefore the codex only has a couple of units, which makes the codex boring" it's YOU MAKING the codex boring, not the sign of a boring codex.
I agree 100%... and honestly most of the crying I've seen over the years came from players with the most beard-neck, obnoxious "fluffy" 3rd ed armies like iron warriors etc...
"Want Khorne? Just use BA! LOL!"
All the good Dex's require you to use other Dex's to make the army you want. I love in the Necron dex how you need to use the SM dex to make a good shooty army. That's great design!
I think the Black Legion Supplement will give us a better idea how GW wants to give us the rules for the Traitor Legions. Maybe we'll see some good build up from the book that adds to the book in a way that allows for those various fluffy armies people want to run outside of the basic Renegade faction.
I remain optimistic.
Aside from that, I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the CSM book until the Heldrake FAQ occurred. I'm okay with the intent (it's able to turn it's head, ect) but that really upped the flamer option's power level for no additional cost. On a fairly strong flyer platform no less. I'd like to see a -small- points bump to take the Baleflamer is all.
That said the rest of the book looks at least middle-of-the road or better in terms of power level. Sure some things out class others but I really don't see anything in the book that can't be used to win games if used well. Granted dice can always cause good plans to go out the window, but that's a different story honestly.
A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.
My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).
What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.
My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).
How exactly does that make it a Black Legion codex? This opinion was bandied about in the BL supplement thread. There is exactly oneBL special character. An unmarked lord unlocks nothing, unmarked troops get nothing special and there is no generic daemon weapon option, if you don't like the Black Mace you're gak outta luck. So how exactly does this represent a Legion that is known for having cult troops in massive numbers, as well as probably hundreds of Lords and their warbands?
To address the fluff concerns about legions. They're all supposed to be fractured. It's been 10,000 years. Most of the participants of the Horus Heresy are dead. Most of the legions don't do stuff together. The primarchs are off doing their own thing. People like Ahriman and Lucious are doing their own thing. There are no legions. That's why it's codex chaos space marines, not codex chaos legions. The FW Horus Heresy supplements are there to allow people to play corrupted legions.
As for flavor of legion units. You can easily create Alpha Legion, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, Black Legion armies. You can even create armies dedicated to the four chaos gods.
So the biggest gripe I see is that vehicles cannot be marked. Dreadnoughts can't take sonic weaponry. Well, why would a dreadnought have a sonic cannon. The guy is totally deprived of sensation. How can he even enjoy a sound cannon? He can't rock out properly to appreciate it.
Nurgle terminators can't take FNP like plague marines? Well they never could in the 3.5 dex either.
I feel that people want to play the units that they like or already have and those units be uber awesome. That's what passes as a desire for "flavor". Units that a person likes being strong.
bogalubov wrote: So the biggest gripe I see is that vehicles cannot be marked. Dreadnoughts can't take sonic weaponry. Well, why would a dreadnought have a sonic cannon. The guy is totally deprived of sensation. How can he even enjoy a sound cannon? He can't rock out properly to appreciate it.
Nurgle terminators can't take FNP like plague marines? Well they never could in the 3.5 dex either.
See, these arguments are disingenuous. A Marine interned in a Dreadnaught isn't Deaf, Dumb and Blind. They can't feel tactile sensations, i.e. touch things. If they couldn't see or hear they'd be utterly useless as warriors. There's absolutely no reason a Dreadnaught wouldn't mount a Sonic Cannon, and in fact he'd be likely to mount an even bigger one to try and compensate for his inability to feel the tactile feedback from melee weapons.
And the reason people complain about FNP on Nurgle Terminators is not for the sake of FNP, it's because they don't have FNP while the power armour troops do. The reason it wasn't a problem in 3.5 was because neither had FNP. It's a problem of consistency, not power. Why are Terminators less capable than Power Armour legionnaires? Why are the marines wearing Terminator Armour less skilled than the ones wearing Power Armour, even though they have to be more skilled to be allowed to wear the armour in the first place? Why does wearing Terminator Armour suddenly make you a recruit rather than a veteran?
I think the most important thing to realize is that with the release of Codex: Iyanden, (And the soon release of Farsight Enclaves and Black Legion) We can reasonably expect more legion books for stuff like World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion.
I agree with Ailaros though. The glass is either half empty or half full, depending on how you want to see it. You can work with what you have or not work at all, really.
Cryonicleech wrote: I think the most important thing to realize is that with the release of Codex: Iyanden, (And the soon release of Farsight Enclaves and Black Legion) We can reasonably expect more legion books for stuff like World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion.
That could, potentially, fix some of the problems. Of course it's going to have to, at minimum, include rules for Legion Terminators and Legion HQs, or you run into the same problem of "Why is my warlord less skilled than a line trooper?" What it's unlikely to fix is when the basic trooper over-priced and terrible, for example Thousand Sons. They can't realistically over-write the existing unit entries, although they could probably go a long way by giving the Sorcerer some options and disentangling him from the worthless Tzeentch Lore.
bogalubov wrote: So the biggest gripe I see is that vehicles cannot be marked. Dreadnoughts can't take sonic weaponry. Well, why would a dreadnought have a sonic cannon. The guy is totally deprived of sensation. How can he even enjoy a sound cannon? He can't rock out properly to appreciate it.
Nurgle terminators can't take FNP like plague marines? Well they never could in the 3.5 dex either.
See, these arguments are disingenuous. A Marine interned in a Dreadnaught isn't Deaf, Dumb and Blind. They can't feel tactile sensations, i.e. touch things. If they couldn't see or hear they'd be utterly useless as warriors. There's absolutely no reason a Dreadnaught wouldn't mount a Sonic Cannon, and in fact he'd be likely to mount an even bigger one to try and compensate for his inability to feel the tactile feedback from melee weapons.
And the reason people complain about FNP on Nurgle Terminators is not for the sake of FNP, it's because they don't have FNP while the power armour troops do. The reason it wasn't a problem in 3.5 was because neither had FNP. It's a problem of consistency, not power. Why are Terminators less capable than Power Armour legionnaires? Why are the marines wearing Terminator Armour less skilled than the ones wearing Power Armour, even though they have to be more skilled to be allowed to wear the armour in the first place? Why does wearing Terminator Armour suddenly make you a recruit rather than a veteran?
Can you explain why the master of magic is the worst at it? Or why a Death Guard Marine suddenly loses his powers when he puts on terminator armor? Or how they can make crazy dino bots but not have Land Raider variants? Etc etc etc. It all goes to show a codex that wasn't thought out very well.
bogalubov wrote: To address the fluff concerns about legions. They're all supposed to be fractured. It's been 10,000 years. Most of the participants of the Horus Heresy are dead. Most of the legions don't do stuff together. The primarchs are off doing their own thing. People like Ahriman and Lucious are doing their own thing. There are no legions. That's why it's codex chaos space marines, not codex chaos legions.
To respond to this, not all of the Warbands are shattered into tiny little roaming warbands. The Word Bearers and Iron Warriors still maintain a level of cohesion and at least largely operate in chapter or larger sized formations in many instances. Even if they were shattered, everything that makes them Chaos Space Marines is after they stopped being Imperial Legions anyway, the Rubric of Ahriman for instance that created the Thousands Sons as they are now was entirely post heresy yet unique to that Legion. They don't stop being what they are just because they aren't all one completely unified Legion.
The FW Horus Heresy supplements are there to allow people to play corrupted legions.
Have you read the FWHH book? It's not about playing corrupted Legions, it's about playing Great Crusade era Imperial Space Marine Legions. There isn't a single Chaos related item in that book.
You can even create armies dedicated to the four chaos gods.
Nurgle terminators can't take FNP like plague marines? Well they never could in the 3.5 dex either.
Yes, but as noted earlier, not proper Cult units as GW has made the distinction (e.g. a CSM with a Mark of Nurgle is no Plague Marine, yet this distinction doesn't exist when it comes to Terminators, Lords, Bikes, Havocs, etc)
So the biggest gripe I see is that vehicles cannot be marked. Dreadnoughts can't take sonic weaponry. Well, why would a dreadnought have a sonic cannon. The guy is totally deprived of sensation. How can he even enjoy a sound cannon? He can't rock out properly to appreciate it.
A dreadnought is not deprived of sensation, just physical touch, and it's not like he's completely sane anyway.Besides, there are models for it.
I think that chaos is still a powerful book. Then again my nemisis plays them and can always finds new ways to use them in an unusual way. I can't speak for past editions but this book is a tough opponent for me to face.
As for making a more fluff happy list I would wait for some of these rumored supplements to arrive. I hear black legion is in the works but I can easily see a night lords or thousand sons supplement being store hits.
Ailaros wrote: That's boring players, not a boring codex.
You don't, in any way, need to play plague marines and helldrakes. You don't need to play plague marines and helldrakes to be competitive.
If you say "the only thing I like are a couple of units, therefore the codex only has a couple of units, which makes the codex boring" it's YOU MAKING the codex boring, not the sign of a boring codex.
I agree 100%... and honestly most of the crying I've seen over the years came from players with the most beard-neck, obnoxious "fluffy" 3rd ed armies like iron warriors etc...
I love this. "THE ONLY REASON THEY WANT IT IS CAUSE THEY WANT OPNESS"
By Fulgrim you need to change your tune, trying to shout down others and claim they want to be OP is probably true in some cases, but that doesn't mean many others don't want better options in general then what was fed to us.
So the biggest gripe I see is that vehicles cannot be marked. Dreadnoughts can't take sonic weaponry. Well, why would a dreadnought have a sonic cannon. The guy is totally deprived of sensation. How can he even enjoy a sound cannon? He can't rock out properly to appreciate it.
Excellent point. Somebody, somewhere, is going to quote you on that in their sig.
Demetrius of the Violators was a Dreadnought that had a sarcophagus which could open, revealing his true from allowing it to feel, he also had his nerves somehow attached to the plates on his frame to better experience sensation around him during battle. He was a very rare case granted.
But to say a Dreadnought would not have a Sonic Cannon because he can't enjoy it seems silly, he can still set about destroying his enemies better with a bigger more devastating gun. Sonic weaponry is the kinda signature weapon of a devotee of Slaanesh, why wouldn't you give your big symbol of eternal war in the Dark Princes name a weapon that reflects this. That's my opinion anyway.
The new codex is better than it's previous incarnation and it is fairly enjoyable but it does have a lot of missed opportunity and certain elements of it are annoying. Certain rules, especially the must challenge one, and the layout seem to be my main gripes.
Why is there no Slaanesh Daemon weapon, why does the Land Raider not have PotMS or at least a Chaos equivalent, why does the Daemonic Possession upgrade not grant the Daemon special rule as with the other Daemonic Engines.
I was also annoyed that we didn't get any new artwork on the front. The picture I love, but a new one would have been nice. Also some of the images in the book are rather poor and the fluff is quite sparse, and some of it seems a little contradictory.
Reading my post it seems like I am quite unhappy with it, I'm not, honest guv! It's good, it just could have been better. Compared to the Tau and Eldar ones it just seems a little stale and rehashed rather than a new attempt.
I love this. "THE ONLY REASON THEY WANT IT IS CAUSE THEY WANT OPNESS"
I'm also seeing a lot of this. The reason I'm not fond of the book isn't because it's weak, or I want to be OP, it's because we can't take distinct legions.
Chrysis wrote: And the reason people complain about FNP on Nurgle Terminators is not for the sake of FNP, it's because they don't have FNP while the power armour troops do. The reason it wasn't a problem in 3.5 was because neither had FNP. It's a problem of consistency, not power. Why are Terminators less capable than Power Armour legionnaires? Why are the marines wearing Terminator Armour less skilled than the ones wearing Power Armour, even though they have to be more skilled to be allowed to wear the armour in the first place? Why does wearing Terminator Armour suddenly make you a recruit rather than a veteran?
Exactly. This is what I'm trying to say.
MarsNZ wrote: How exactly does that make it a Black Legion codex? This opinion was bandied about in the BL supplement thread. There is exactly oneBL special character. An unmarked lord unlocks nothing, unmarked troops get nothing special and there is no generic daemon weapon option, if you don't like the Black Mace you're gak outta luck. So how exactly does this represent a Legion that is known for having cult troops in massive numbers, as well as probably hundreds of Lords and their warbands?
I don't have a problem with a BL supplement, I'm just not sure they're in the most dire need. Forgive me if I'm wrong though, but I have always been under the impression that BL was the 'default/vanilla' form of CSM, the equivalent of Ultramarines - And they just use a pick'n'mix of Marks
Chaos is a way to varied force to be represented by one codex. And it doesn't help that Chaos Space Marines have some of the most developed and diverse fluff around.
GW tried to make the Legions work with the 3.5 codex and it was a horrible broken mess. So they decided that codex CSM would be a codex for Chaos Space Marines. Not a codex Slanesh or Nurgle. Not codex Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons.
You can create a good Black Legion, Word Bearer or Red Korsair force. You can create a Force for one of the many smaller warbands that Split from the Legions and formed from Marines that turned after the heresy. It's a codex for the majority of CSM forces, which are forces of renegades supported by a few veterans from the original Legions. Which is why the codex added new options for such forces.
It is a good codex for this purpose. It's not a perfect codex and I have some issues with it (I agree that the Dark Mechanicus should have developed some Land Raider and Predator variants of their own. Also MoT is a horrible choice for most units and the Lore of Tzeentch isn't very good), but it does the job well enough.
While the Helldrake, Plague Marines and Obliberator are supperior choices, they are only your only choices if you equal competitive with WAAC.
The real problem is that various old Index Astartes articles, the 3.5 Codex and loads and loads of Fluff releases have opened Pandoras box on the diversity of Chaos and GW is just starting again to do codex supplements. So there's a lot of Chaos players that are only Chaos players in the sense that a Blood Angels player is an Imperium player. A lot of players have or want to play Mono god and Legion forces that the codex can't represent, but that used to have rules.
And then, to add to the problem, there's a lot of old fluff representing rules that where left behind, as well as memetic mutation and headcanon that people like to hold up as definite dogma on how certain forces should be played.
It used to be that Red Corsairs still used loyalist equipment and Iron Warriors crewed basilisks. These things haven't been mentioned in a long time.
And yes, raptors fit the combat doctrine of the Night Lords, but I don't think it was ever stated that Night Lords are all raptor, all the time.
I say, play Codex CSM as what it is meant to represent and be patient. If rumors hold true, the codex will make bigger changes as more are released. With some luck, we will eventually see those Legion supplements that do the job.
Until then, people must learn that their Legion forces are in the same boat as pure Kroot, Iron Hands, Catachans etc. They are forces that diverge from the norm and currently without rules.
I don't have a problem with a BL supplement, I'm just not sure they're in the most dire need. Forgive me if I'm wrong though, but I have always been under the impression that BL was the 'default/vanilla' form of CSM, the equivalent of Ultramarines - And they just use a pick'n'mix of Marks
It has been fluff in Rogue Trader and 2nd edition that the Sons of Horus lost a huge amount of their original numbers, because the members burned themself out by deamonic possession. It has also been part of that fluff, that the remainder of the Sons of Horus that formed the core of the new Black Legion perfected the ritual of possession, so the host doesn't die.
Mastery of posession, absorbing members of other Legions and renegade warbands, as well as a focus on Black Crusades should make a good basis for a supplement that makes just a tad more changes than Iyanden and Farsight. If the rumor that the supplements make progressively more changes are true, picking Black Legion makes a lot of sense. I'd expect Red Kaorsairs and Word Bearers to see the next Chaos supplement.
And yes, raptors fit the combat doctrine of the Night Lords, but I don't think it was ever stated that Night Lords are all raptor, all the time.
They aren't, they are actually night fighting specialists with a number of ground and air based forces that prefer the alpha strike on an enemy force, which is why they have a high number of raptors because of the quicker strike helps them terrorize enemy forces into disarray, though they don't seem to care much for bikes as much. I suppose they prefer the aerial maneuvering one could get over the issues on the ground.
They have a number of standard CSM soldiers on ground as well, they are usually more prepared for the main strike once the air forces work their attack.
SirDigby wrote: A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.
My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).
What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.
So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?
SirDigby wrote: A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.
My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).
What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.
So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?
How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?
SirDigby wrote: A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.
My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).
What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.
So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?
How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?
SirDigby wrote: A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.
My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).
What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.
So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?
How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?
It doesn't really...
Wait... So you'd be OK if Blood Angels or Dark Angels were just a single special unit and special character in the Space Marine codex, and you didn't have any other options beyond that (a la the current situation of the chaos legions)? Lose all those special rules, all the rest of your special characters, all the unique units (goodbye death company, they were really just assault marines... goodbye deathwing knights, they were really just terminators... goodbye long fangs, they were really just devastators)? If Blood Angels became a Space Marine list with the special rule of "if you take a Blood Angels character, assault squads become troops" I can imagine a HUGE outcry from existing Blood Angels players, specifically because they HAD all the cool special rules and lost them. Nevermind that to make the analogy complete, in that situation the Blood Angels also wouldn't be able to use 50% of the rest of the Marine codex, just as legion specific players can't use huge swathes of the chaos codex that don't correspond to their legion.
SirDigby wrote: A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.
My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).
What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.
So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?
How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?
It doesn't really...
Wait... So you'd be OK if Blood Angels or Dark Angels were just a single special unit and special character in the Space Marine codex, and you didn't have any other options beyond that (a la the current situation of the chaos legions)? Lose all those special rules, all the rest of your special characters, all the unique units (goodbye death company, they were really just assault marines... goodbye deathwing knights, they were really just terminators... goodbye long fangs, they were really just devastators)? If Blood Angels became a Space Marine list with the special rule of "if you take a Blood Angels character, assault squads become troops" I can imagine a HUGE outcry from existing Blood Angels players, specifically because they HAD all the cool special rules and lost them. Nevermind that to make the analogy complete, in that situation the Blood Angels also wouldn't be able to use 50% of the rest of the Marine codex, just as legion specific players can't use huge swathes of the chaos codex that don't correspond to their legion.
Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.
Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.
I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?
Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd...
When the only difference was Death Company (black marines) and some SC's...
if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'.
most of the "customization" is largely trying to hamfist 4 very different Legions and then renegade marked-but-not-cult legions on top of that and does it very poorly.
That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model
Most of which are simple FoC/weapon swaps.
- this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.
Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.
I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?
Assuming, as per the previous poster, I get to keep one 'character' to unlock stuff (assault marine as troops?), it'd probably be Dante; But otherwise:
Furiouso Dreadnought, Librarian Dreadnought, Death Company Dreadnought, Death Company, Baal Predator, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinor, Tycho, StormRAVEN, Sanguinary Priests, Astorath, Corbulo, Jumpie Honour guards, and Gabriel Seth... did I leave anybody out?
Sorry but that is just NOT the case for CSM... wanting a T5 FnP plague terminator... and getting just a T5 MoN terminator does not compare.
Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.
I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?
As an Emporers Children player whose played 3.5...
Sonic Dreads, Sonic Preds, Blastmaster havocs, sonic gun/blastmaster/doom siren on standard CSM/Chosen/Bikers.
Not counting all the special slaanesh wargear/mutations, not to mention the Daemonic Upgrades for the chaos lord/sorcerer that isn't a random roller...
I would certainly prefer to give my Deathguard Terminators FNP and other Nurgly goodness, but since I don't have those options I am happy to give them the Mark of Nurgle and be done with it. Its as close as I can get to Plague Terminators.
I think the codex and the writers should be criticized for not including more cult options, but I wont lose any sleep over it.
As an Emporers Children player whose played 3.5...
Sonic Dreads, Sonic Preds, Blastmaster havocs, sonic gun/blastmaster/doom siren on standard CSM/Chosen/Bikers.
Not counting all the special slaanesh wargear/mutations, not to mention the Daemonic Upgrades for the chaos lord/sorcerer that isn't a random roller...
I'd give you the EC disappointments but you are still essentially talking about the loss of one-weapon type over several units; and you've gained others in the new codex.
As for the other stuff those are wholesale game changes that affect all codex. There is no more picking veteran abilities etc and everyone has random psychic powers.
Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.
I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?
Assuming, as per the previous poster, I get to keep one 'character' to unlock stuff, it'd probably be Dante; But otherwise:
Furiouso Dreadnought, Librarian Dreadnought, Death Company Dreadnought, Death Company, Baal Predator, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinor, Tycho, StormRAVEN, Sanguinary Priests, Astorath, Corbulo, Jumpie Honour guards, and Gabriel Seth... did I leave anybody out?
Furioso Dreadnoughts could be used as Ironclads, Librarian Dreadnoughts could be used as Venerable Dreadnoughts, Death Company would just be a differently painted Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard could be used as Vanguard Veterans, Space Marines can already take Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Priests are just Apothecaries, and Jump Pack Honor Guards again are just Vanguard Veterans. The only non-special character models on your list that wouldn't have a direct corollary in the Marine book are Baal Predators, and that's almost the exact same thing that happened to Sonic Predators for Emperor's Children. I don't see how it's any different to take, for example, my Thousand Sons Havocs and turn them into generic Havocs with Mark of Tzeentch (losing out on army specific rules) then to take your Death Company and turn them into generic Assault Marines (again, losing out on army specific rules). Sure, some of your wargear doesn't match the current list availability (just like Emperor's Children Havocs can't use their noise weapons, or Iron Warriors simply couldn't use their Basilisk until 6th edition allies) but you could make it work.
It takes a lot of shoehorning, but that's the general theme of how Chaos players felt with the 4th edition codex. If those changes happened to you, I'm sure you'd be absolutely miserable with your new, sans-options army, and you'd have an right to be. But to get a long-awaited 6th edition codex and have NOTHING change...
Feel the wrath of my TEQ priced Rubric Marines! Marvel at how they die like bitches to lasguns in rapid fire range! Be amazed at their mandatory overpriced sorcerer with bad powers! Gasp before their guns which are no better than bolters against anything that's not a marine! Be in awe as my soulblaze rages for a turn and makes you lose nothing of value!
SirDigby wrote: I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!
So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM..
What's wrong with the CSM book? What exactly are you looking to build?
SirDigby wrote: I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!
So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM..
What's wrong with the CSM book? What exactly are you looking to build?
Furioso Dreadnoughts could be used as Ironclads, Librarian Dreadnoughts could be used as Venerable Dreadnoughts, Death Company would just be a differently painted Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard could be used as Vanguard Veterans, Space Marines can already take Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Priests are just Apothecaries, and Jump Pack Honor Guards again are just Vanguard Veterans. The only non-special character models on your list that wouldn't have a direct corollary in the Marine book are Baal Predators, and that's almost the exact same thing that happened to Sonic Predators for Emperor's Children. I don't see how it's any different to take, for example, my Thousand Sons Havocs and turn them into generic Havocs with Mark of Tzeentch (losing out on army specific rules) then to take your Death Company and turn them into generic Assault Marines (again, losing out on army specific rules). Sure, some of your wargear doesn't match the current list availability (just like Emperor's Children Havocs can't use their noise weapons, or Iron Warriors simply couldn't use their Basilisk until 6th edition allies) but you could make it work.
It takes a lot of shoehorning, but that's the general theme of how Chaos players felt with the 4th edition codex. If those changes happened to you, I'm sure you'd be absolutely miserable with your new, sans-options army, and you'd have an right to be. But to get a long-awaited 6th edition codex and have NOTHING change...
Well I think we both know that is not even a remotely reasonable comparison. The loss of a few weapon-types is hardly the same as wholesale unit exchanges. Most codex have had much bigger changes since 3rd edition... Blood Angels all had FC and Rage and could assault out of rhinos in the 3rd ed codex.
Don't forget that the only thing making 'regular chaos space marines' into 'noise marines' in the 3.5Dex was adding the Mark of Slaanesh and following the restrictions. Like every other codex in the game certain things have changed, as is the case with the Mark of Slaanesh to some degree.
Don't forget that the only thing making 'regular chaos space marines' into 'noise marines' in the 3.5Dex was adding the Mark of Slaanesh and following the restrictions. Like every other codex in the game certain things have changed, as is the case with the Mark of Slaanesh to some degree.
Yeah, certain things have changed but we're the only ones still paying for some dumb mistakes that were made over a decade ago. No other codex has to deal with that bullcrap. Yes 3.5 had some OP stuff, but a lot of it was really cool. In any case I'd rather play that codex now then have to deal with a copy-pasted bland codex written by one of the biggest tools currently employed by GeeDubs.
Furioso Dreadnoughts could be used as Ironclads, Librarian Dreadnoughts could be used as Venerable Dreadnoughts, Death Company would just be a differently painted Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard could be used as Vanguard Veterans, Space Marines can already take Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Priests are just Apothecaries, and Jump Pack Honor Guards again are just Vanguard Veterans. The only non-special character models on your list that wouldn't have a direct corollary in the Marine book are Baal Predators, and that's almost the exact same thing that happened to Sonic Predators for Emperor's Children. I don't see how it's any different to take, for example, my Thousand Sons Havocs and turn them into generic Havocs with Mark of Tzeentch (losing out on army specific rules) then to take your Death Company and turn them into generic Assault Marines (again, losing out on army specific rules). Sure, some of your wargear doesn't match the current list availability (just like Emperor's Children Havocs can't use their noise weapons, or Iron Warriors simply couldn't use their Basilisk until 6th edition allies) but you could make it work.
It takes a lot of shoehorning, but that's the general theme of how Chaos players felt with the 4th edition codex. If those changes happened to you, I'm sure you'd be absolutely miserable with your new, sans-options army, and you'd have an right to be. But to get a long-awaited 6th edition codex and have NOTHING change...
Well I think we both know that is not even a remotely reasonable comparison. The loss of a few weapon-types is hardly the same as wholesale unit exchanges. Most codex have had much bigger changes since 3rd edition... Blood Angels all had FC and Rage and could assault out of rhinos in the 3rd ed codex.
Don't forget that the only thing making 'regular chaos space marines' into 'noise marines' in the 3.5Dex was adding the Mark of Slaanesh and following the restrictions. Like every other codex in the game certain things have changed, as is the case with the Mark of Slaanesh to some degree.
I think I've veered away from my original point, which was that I don't feel like I have enough options in my codex to make varied lists that represent the Thousand Sons. This is the result of trying to include multiple distinct armies in one book. It's the exact opposite of what happened with the Blood Angels, who got a book of their own and now have numerous units making them distinct from normal space marines. Even ignoring little things like "Thousand Sons Havocs would be fearless and have a 4+ invul" and "Thousand Sons Terminators should have AP3 combi-bolters", I'm still forced to use a subset of the units in the Chaos codex if I want to play a Thousand Sons force. Don't even mention that a lot of the remaining units are absolutely terrible (seriously, 6+ invul for Mark of Tzeentch? the Tzeentch psychic power table?). I feel like the entire army I play is only one build of the Chaos codex, just like DOA is one build of the Blood Angel codex. The difference is, a DOA list can branch out and include the rest of the Blood Angels army, but if I want to play Thousand Sons, there's no way I can use anything with the Marks of Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne.
I think I've veered away from my original point, which was that I don't feel like I have enough options in my codex to make varied lists that represent the Thousand Sons. This is the result of trying to include multiple distinct armies in one book. It's the exact opposite of what happened with the Blood Angels, who got a book of their own and now have numerous units making them distinct from normal space marines. Even ignoring little things like "Thousand Sons Havocs would be fearless and have a 4+ invul" and "Thousand Sons Terminators should have AP3 combi-bolters", I'm still forced to use a subset of the units in the Chaos codex if I want to play a Thousand Sons force. Don't even mention that a lot of the remaining units are absolutely terrible (seriously, 6+ invul for Mark of Tzeentch? the Tzeentch psychic power table?). I feel like the entire army I play is only one build of the Chaos codex, just like DOA is one build of the Blood Angel codex. The difference is, a DOA list can branch out and include the rest of the Blood Angels army, but if I want to play Thousand Sons, there's no way I can use anything with the Marks of Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne.
Uhh hold on now... the Thousand Sons have never had their own codex; and the Blood Angels have since 2nd edition... you are not comparing apples with apples.
And for absolute certain DOA is not the only build in the BA codex. The argument for not using anything MoS or MoN or MoK is also rather ridiculous - just don't add those marks to your units; done, that was easy.
So have we finally arrived at the crux of the disappointment?
GW is not treating Chaos Marines like they do Imperial Marines? That's never been the case and will never be that way. Other than supplements there won't be a Thousand Sons codex. Nor a Slaanesh one.
I think I've veered away from my original point, which was that I don't feel like I have enough options in my codex to make varied lists that represent the Thousand Sons. This is the result of trying to include multiple distinct armies in one book. It's the exact opposite of what happened with the Blood Angels, who got a book of their own and now have numerous units making them distinct from normal space marines. Even ignoring little things like "Thousand Sons Havocs would be fearless and have a 4+ invul" and "Thousand Sons Terminators should have AP3 combi-bolters", I'm still forced to use a subset of the units in the Chaos codex if I want to play a Thousand Sons force. Don't even mention that a lot of the remaining units are absolutely terrible (seriously, 6+ invul for Mark of Tzeentch? the Tzeentch psychic power table?). I feel like the entire army I play is only one build of the Chaos codex, just like DOA is one build of the Blood Angel codex. The difference is, a DOA list can branch out and include the rest of the Blood Angels army, but if I want to play Thousand Sons, there's no way I can use anything with the Marks of Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne.
Uhh hold on now... the Thousand Sons have never had their own codex; and the Blood Angels have since 2nd edition... you are not comparing apples with apples.
And for absolute certain DOA is not the only build in the BA codex. The argument for not using anything MoS or MoN or MoK is also rather ridiculous - just don't add those marks to your units; done, that was easy.
I'm arguing that from a design standpoint, Blood Angels and Thousand Sons should be apples and apples. They're both specialized marine chapters, and the fact that they're not currently comparable is the crux of the issue.
Edit: bogalubov I don't think that chaos players expect full codices like regular marines, simply rules in our current codex to support the armies we want to play.
I'm arguing that from a design standpoint, Blood Angels and Thousand Sons should be apples and apples. They're both specialized marine chapters, and the fact that they're not currently comparable is the crux of the issue.
Edit: bogalubov I don't think that chaos players expect full codices like regular marines, simply rules in our current codex to support the armies we want to play.
Well maybe, but they were never really 'comparable'. Most of the other folks in this thread seem to be wishing for 3.5edCodex which also tried to "include multiple distinct armies in one book" and was terrible imbalanced. We don't see that sort of 'variety' in regards to veteran abilities, mutant crap, wargear, in ANY current codex... the rest well is still mostly the same in the new book.
It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.
Kain wrote: It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.
Seriously- I'd be happy with a simple "If all units capable of taking Marks of Chaos in the army have the same mark, all infantry share x and y special rules with the cult troops choice." Suddenly I could run actual Thousand Sons terminators, havocs, heck I'd probably even convert some raptors, bikers, chosen...
Kain wrote: It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.
Seriously- I'd be happy with a simple "If all units capable of taking Marks of Chaos in the army have the same mark, all infantry share x and y special rules with the cult troops choice." Suddenly I could run actual Thousand Sons terminators, havocs, heck I'd probably even convert some raptors, bikers, chosen...
Well first there never really were "plague terminators" ...it was always more like Somerandonidiot just described where certain rules were shared if you followed the restrictions. That said, that is STILL the case, except that not ALL of the rules are shared. You can still take raptors, bikers and chosen with MoT and they will therefore still share some of those specific rules with the "cult" troops.
For that matter, I wish ALL Blood Angels still had furious charge and rage and could assault out of rhinos heh... ...but they can't anymore.
Kain wrote: It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.
Seriously- I'd be happy with a simple "If all units capable of taking Marks of Chaos in the army have the same mark, all infantry share x and y special rules with the cult troops choice." Suddenly I could run actual Thousand Sons terminators, havocs, heck I'd probably even convert some raptors, bikers, chosen...
Well first there never really were "plague terminators" ...it was always more like Somerandonidiot just described where certain rules were shared. That said, that is STILL the case, except that not ALL of the rules are shared. You can still take raptors, bikers and chosen with MoT and they will therefore still share some of those specific rules with the "cult" troops.
Yeah, but it really kills the theme when my Thousand Son terminators are forced to flee from combat, despite the fact that their brothers in power armor are immune to such things. That kind of inconsistency bothers me, and I'm sure it does for others as well. There's a huge difference between AP3 bolters, fearless, a Sorcerer as a sergeant, and a 4+ invulnerable save and a 6+ invulnerable save. I run Ahriman in a unit of Tzeentch Terminators to make them fearless, and that works pretty well, but I haven't found a way to really integrate other units into my army in an internally consistent way.
Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.
Musashi363 wrote: Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.
So then all the crying is essentially about one unit, terminators, and a few extra abilities they miss in this version? And because they lack this one respective power now they are no longer within the theme of your army? Welcome to 40k, see every other codex for reference to how they change..
I don't understand why some non-csm players here are so against letting people field specific CSM Legions. Would it really spoil your day that much to see one Chaos player enjoying an infiltrating Alpha Legion force, and another enjoying a gunline Iron Warriors force? Why are you defending a book which clearly so many people are disappointed in?
As much as I hate to think of it this way - Perhaps 6th CSM was specifically made "Cultless/Legionless" to leave room for plenty of overpriced supplements. Maybe we'll still get our cult armies, just a year late. Yay for 2 pages of rules at full-codex price!
I think you have it wrong. There are no infiltrators in this thread telling CSM players that they can't have cult troops and they should suck it up.
There is just one camp of CSM players (me included) that don't think that it's raining poo and that the only way to play CSM is by by proxy with another codex.
In my opinion, people have unrealistic expectations of what they want from the codex. I think the current codex delivers a medium level of power and combined with the daemon codex, you can field a top tier army.
Not every build is super powerful, but that's the case with any codex. Wave serpent spam and warp spiders are much easier to play for eldar then walking wraithblades. Anyone who fielded a harlequin army in the past is going to be waiting a while until they can do it again. You find this with every book.
So, you can decide not play. Or you can try to explore the book and find what you can make work.
Musashi363 wrote: Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.
Except the Word Bearers series is very clear that only the best of the best are even considered to gain the honor of wearing terminator armor, and in less well organized legions you have to kill the previous owner and strip the armor from his body to get yours. Said other guy is usually a veteran of the long war who's already slaughtered hundreds who wanted his suit and even more on the battlefield.
Personally I just wanted hqs that would change the army to feel like I was playing this army or that army (Vulkan He'Stan, Pedro Kantor, etc). A HQ for Thousand Sons that made them replace Champions of chaos with *this* etc etc. Perhaps even make it a payable upgrade on hqs to let your army benefit from it (obviously for a price. Admittedly this would be hard to balance but rumours say SM might be doing it)
Musashi363 wrote: Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.
Except the Word Bearers series is very clear that only the best of the best are even considered to gain the honor of wearing terminator armor, and in less well organized legions you have to kill the previous owner and strip the armor from his body to get yours. Said other guy is usually a veteran of the long war who's already slaughtered hundreds who wanted his suit and even more on the battlefield.
And I think Thousand Sons would have a problem swapping armour
3.5 balanced? Oh heck no.
Fluffy? Yes. Fun to play wuth and against if the csm player softened his list a bit, sure.
Balanced? Oh no. Kid me not.
Though I'm curious how it would hold up if you brought it out to play in this edition... Point costs have lowered slowly but steadily in the 3 editions since, but I'm actually considering rummaging for it in my storage unit, and taking it out for a spin...
Most of the USRs should be working...
Anyone tried it? Just for gaks and giggles I mean?
I can understand th OPs frustration about Terminators. I was jumping up and down from the rumours of marks and icons, until it became clear that the FnP Icon wasn't for my FW Deathguard terminators to have... (Still find it fun that PMs are more survivable statisticly against most shots at worsr than ap3... Heck, I'm also kinda peeved that the traitors "forgot" to bring alot of their stuff, like corrupted machine spirits, and most importantly the god darn drop pods...
But I can also agree with the others in this thread, on the other side of the fence; I'm having a blast with this dex... All none EC, DG or TS legions can be WELL represented, and seriously, I can live without sonic weaponry on my EC terminators, AP3 combibolters on the TS termies, and FnP for the DG termies.
Throwing a nurgle IC with acess to blight grenades for the DG ones help out alot too.
As others have stated earlier:
IW? Bring IG allies and a craptonne of Daemon engines.
WB? Bring a dark apostle and daemon allies, or even Daemons as primary.
AL? Huron or Ahriman as count as, cultists and/or IG allies.
NL? Same as above, but a heavy focus on FA.
WE? Kharn, berserkers, and marked and iconed whatever from the dex...
Musashi363 wrote: Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.
So then all the crying is essentially about one unit, terminators, and a few extra abilities they miss in this version? And because they lack this one respective power now they are no longer within the theme of your army? Welcome to 40k, see every other codex for reference to how they change..
nope, it would take a hell of alot more then that to make me happy. it doesnt take long to see it was just a rushed rehash of the old book. and the old book was also really generic and boring.
chaos got dinobots hellturkeys and crap random tables... awesome.
I kind of wish they had made the Boon of Chaos specifically for winning fights.
But at the same time, allowed you to BUY MUTATIONS. Seriously, we aren't Space Marines, we should be able to buy +1S because our chaos lord grew giant arms that could deck your standard MEQ because his fists now are bigger then a boltgun. It would show some differentiation once again between a SM: Captain, and a CSM Chaos lord.
Musashi363 wrote: Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.
So then all the crying is essentially about one unit, terminators, and a few extra abilities they miss in this version? And because they lack this one respective power now they are no longer within the theme of your army? Welcome to 40k, see every other codex for reference to how they change..
Ok but let if you take your BA and check what you lost in 2 edition you will still find out that you gained stuff too. flamestorm baals or the storm raven or the blender dread. The 1ksons got nothing in the last 2 codex , the WE got nothing in the last 2 codex , the NM got nothing in the last 2 codex and so on . They did on the other hand lose stuff like cult terminators , thrall sorc ,in codex demons without runing ally etc.
Wow the reading comprehension is amazing here! No, terminators are not the only unit with a problem. If you read my other post (which obviously you didn't) you'd see a few others. I could go on and name all of them...but what would be the point? You wouldn't read them. A conversation is supposed to go two ways buddy. Don't just use the time you should have been using to read our posts to think about what you are going to write. But YES, the extremely unfluffy terminators are a problem...one of many.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus Thousand Sons wouldn't have to "swap" armor if they were wearing terminator armor when the Rubric went off. This goes for bikers, raptors, techmarines, vehicle crew etc etc etc....
Ok but let if you take your BA and check what you lost in 2 edition you will still find out that you gained stuff too. flamestorm baals or the storm raven or the blender dread. The 1ksons got nothing in the last 2 codex , the WE got nothing in the last 2 codex , the NM got nothing in the last 2 codex and so on . They did on the other hand lose stuff like cult terminators , thrall sorc ,in codex demons without runing ally etc.
Well first we are talking about 3rd edition; I'd LOVE to see how much you cry if we reverted back to the 2nd ed Chaos hah. And the Blood Angels lost UNIVERSAL Furious Charge and Rage - I want it back!!@!! ...and universal ability to Assault Out of fast moving Rhinos!!! -- I want it Back!@!@!! ...better scouts and a few other things... my army is not fluffy without them!! Wah Wah Wah... but it was 10 fracken years ago; I got over it... they gave us other stuff "we really didn't want" but it turned out ok.
As for "WE got nothing" and the poor plight of the horrible victim Chaos player... it... is... pathetic. For one thing the Chaos codex is one of the better codex; gah and you dare to make comparisons to the Blood Angels lol; secondly you have to ability to get what 'you want' but the only difference is a few abilities. In the totally unbalanced 3.5 codex (from 10 years ago!) there were no true Plague marines or Berserker marines... Berkserker/Plague/etc were just Chaos Space Marines with the respective Mark! You can do exactly the same thing now - there are just a few rules differences and most you can make up in other ways... you can be Fearless with the 'icon of vengeance' etc... You gained several new and useful units even if you choose to ignore them and it was clear from the start that this codex and the Daemon codex were meant to work together. Further this IS how the game as a whole has changed; look at the rest of the codex as a whole.
Ok but let if you take your BA and check what you lost in 2 edition you will still find out that you gained stuff too. flamestorm baals or the storm raven or the blender dread. The 1ksons got nothing in the last 2 codex , the WE got nothing in the last 2 codex , the NM got nothing in the last 2 codex and so on . They did on the other hand lose stuff like cult terminators , thrall sorc ,in codex demons without runing ally etc.
Well first we are talking about 3rd edition; I'd LOVE to see how much you cry if we reverted back to the 2nd ed Chaos hah. And the Blood Angels lost UNIVERSAL Furious Charge and Rage - I want it back!!@!! ...and universal ability to Assault Out of fast moving Rhinos!!! -- I want it Back!@!@!! ...better scouts and a few other things... but it was 10 fracken years ago; I got over it... they gave us other stuff "we really didn't want" but it turned out ok.
As for "WE got nothing" and the poor plight of the horrible victim Chaos player... it... is... pathetic. For one thing the Chaos codex is one of the better codex; gah and you dare to make comparisons to the Blood Angels lol; secondly you have to ability to get what 'you want' but the only difference is a few abilities. In the totally unbalanced 3.5 codex (from 10 years ago!) there were no true Plague marines or Berserker marines... Berkserker/Plague/etc were just Chaos Space Marines with the respective Mark! You can do exactly the same thing now - there are just a few rules differences and most you can make up in other ways... you can be Fearless with the 'icon of vengeance' etc... You gained several new and useful units even if you choose to ignore them and it was clear from the start that this codex and the Daemon codex were meant to work together. Further this IS how the game as a whole has changed; look at the rest of the codex as a whole.
Are you serious? Because you apparently didn't read the book then, because the Mark actually upgraded them to full status Cult troop, and we're counted as elites unless you took an HQ (Yes there was Lords of Tzeentch and Slaaneshi Sorcerer lords) with the respective mark. You couldn't have marked troops without a lord unlocking them unless you wanted them as elite troops
For example, giving a CSM troop MoT would upgrade the Aspiring Champion to a Sorcerer, giving them access to the full Tzeentch library of equipment while the rest became Rubric, chosen/possessed became an entire Sorcerer Squad, and Sorcerers gained the ability to pass psyker tests more easily due to the fact that the Psykers of Tzeentch aren't weaker casters like those of nurgle or slaanesh. Look at them now! Only able to take a cult troop, lack of sorcerer squads, and being the worst Cult Troop in the entire book for two straight editions. Not to mention their casters are pathetic in comparison to the others! This group got hit harder then mine and I feel sorry for those who believe that the 4th/6th edition trash was an upgrade.
For one thing the Chaos codex is one of the better codex;
Hahaha, that's just straight up funny.
You gained several new and useful units even if you choose to ignore them and it was clear from the start that this codex and the Daemon codex were meant to work together.
A codex should be able to stand on it's own two feet, unless of course they arbitrarily ripped deamons from the codex just to make them support each other again? But I guess you enjoy the baleflame spam.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: [
Are you serious? Because you apparently didn't read the book then, because the Mark actually upgraded them to full status Cult troop, and we're counted as elites unless you took an HQ (Yes there was Lords of Tzeentch and Slaaneshi Sorcerer lords) with the respective mark. You couldn't have marked troops without a lord unlocking them unless you wanted them as elite troops.
Oh how very similar to the way the current codex works. You all are just caught up on the word 'cult troop'... the only difference was there was one sentence that said, if you give these Chaos Space Marines the Mark of X and follow these restrictions you get these few extra rules. It's a ridiculous argument; 'now they don't get those _extra_ rules so they are not fluffy cult troops wah' ...
Further if you are trying to say this codex is not competitive in the current game; understanding you might have some difficulty with some jerk WAAC builds like everyone else; then you really have no credibility.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: [
Are you serious? Because you apparently didn't read the book then, because the Mark actually upgraded them to full status Cult troop, and we're counted as elites unless you took an HQ (Yes there was Lords of Tzeentch and Slaaneshi Sorcerer lords) with the respective mark. You couldn't have marked troops without a lord unlocking them unless you wanted them as elite troops.
Oh how very similar to the way the current codex works. You all are just caught up on the word 'cult troop'... the only difference was there was one sentence that said, if you give these Chaos Space Marines the Mark of X and follow these restrictions you get these few extra rules. It's a ridiculous argument; 'now they don't get those _extra_ rules so they are not fluffy cult troops wah' ...
Further if you are trying to say this codex is not competitive in the current game; understanding you might have some difficulty with some jerk WAAC builds like everyone else; then you really have no credibility.
Well seeing as the only thing that's giving the codex a boost is Heldrakes... I guess they can be competitive if you love nurgle, flying heldrakes, and oblits.
It's only ridiculous if you don't believe they should be able to get those actual, decent rules back. Maybe it'll happen with supplements, who knows. All I know is that the CSM codex has simply degraded since than.
Aside from your constant attempts to belittle others at this point and time. I'd suggest being a bit less hostile in your posting.
bogalubov wrote: To address the fluff concerns about legions. They're all supposed to be fractured. It's been 10,000 years. Most of the participants of the Horus Heresy are dead. Most of the legions don't do stuff together. The primarchs are off doing their own thing. People like Ahriman and Lucious are doing their own thing. There are no legions. That's why it's codex chaos space marines, not codex chaos legions. The FW Horus Heresy supplements are there to allow people to play corrupted legions.
This is a retcon. And this is what makes a lot of Chaos players angry. A lot of players got into the army because they liked the idea of the legions and wanted to play a legion army. Then GW does an about face and says there are no legions anymore only mix-and-match Chaos skittles warbanz. GW wants you to play the army one way and these players want to play it another way. Therefore disappoint.
I guess we should all just accept that until GW decides it wants to hock some new cult terminator models (i.e., never) they just don't exist. And this makes sense. Kharn killed, maimed and burned all the World Eater and Emperor's Children terminators on Skallathrax. The Thousand Sons terminators all bit the dust at the Battle of the Fang. Also I'm pretty sure Draigo single-handedly carved his initials onto the hearts of every last Death Guard terminator except for Typhus. Case closed. Enjoy your warbanz.
Jag_Calle wrote: 3.5 balanced? Oh heck no.
Fluffy? Yes. Fun to play wuth and against if the csm player softened his list a bit, sure.
Balanced? Oh no. Kid me not.
GW has never produced a balanced codex . They can make a bad codex , they can make a very good codex , but they never created an internaly or externaly balanced codex. From what I understand the 3.5 codex made it possible to make many different armies for different legions .The dex must have given people what they wanted , because if 1ksons players think about it fondly , it must have been better then what they have now .
The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!
Kain wrote: The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!
Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.
Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.
Kain wrote: The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!
Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.
Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.
Kain wrote: The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!
The thing is that if you want to play an army that is painted in only a single main-colour, with everyone fantatically shouting "For the Emperor Blood God" as they charge forward, you should probably play a Loyalist Dex.
Chaos is about diversity, internal bickering and desperate, fragile alliances of unlikely splinter-forces to provide a counter-point to the uniform loyalist armies. Mono-God-Chaos-Armies in 40K are thematically redundant.
Kain wrote: The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!
The thing is that if you want to play an army that is painted in only a single main-colour, with everyone fantatically shouting "For the Emperor Blood God" as they charge forward, you should probably play a Loyalist Dex.
Chaos is about diversity, internal bickering and desperate, fragile alliances of unlikely splinter-forces to provide a counter-point to the uniform loyalist armies. Mono-God-Chaos-Armies in 40K are thematically redundant.
Angron defied that, twice no less, the second time around being one of the single most important events for the Steel Legion, Space Wolves, and Grey knights. As did Magnus and Mortarion.
Angron defied that, twice no less, the second time around being one of the single most important events for the Steel Legion, Space Wolves, and Grey knights. As did Magnus and Mortarion.
Fulgrim's a lazy sod though.
I am sure we don't need a unique Codex-option for something that happened only two or three (or even four times) in the 40K history. If you wanna re-created those events, just do it by deviating from the Codex.
During the Siege of Maccragge, a major battle was fought entirely by the Ultramarines 1st Company in Terminator armour. Does that mean we need to have options for all-Terminator Ultramarines? No, because that is not what the UM Codex should represent thematically.
Same for Chaos.
It's supposed to be, in the spectrum of Codex books available, give you the counter-point to the uniform, uni-coloured loyalist armies. The individual sub-factions that make a Chaos army (e.g. the remnant Legions, Cults, etc..) all have individual histories, so that you know the parts that will make the whole. But that does not negate that, by drawing on the rich history of each sub-faction, you're meant to assemble them into a non-mono-god army.
Indeed, not unlike the all-1st-company stand by the Ultramarine's 1st company-story will give you background and texture to the 5 or 10 Terminators you may field in the context of a more varied Ultramarines army.
The thing is that even during the Black Crusades the cult legions do their own thing, Abaddon knows he can't really control them and they shunt off to rampage.
Add to that the ease of making mono-Word bearers, Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion lists and you'll see my problem.
The Alpha Legion and Night Lords are no more organized and unified than any of the Cult legions. When not undergoing a Crusade the Black Legion is also fractured and prone to hitting itself once out of Abaddon's direct line of sight, and yet I can easily make lists for these three.
Why should two legions that do so little of note be easier to represent than the four cult legions whose Primarchs actually bother to get off their asses once a century while the undivided primarchs are all either dead or lazy.
The Word Bearers and Iron Warriors also maintain a high degree of unity and cohesiveness, I can make lists for them easily.
Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).
Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!
It's a perfect example. Gives you two ways to play. Especialy since on is mostly necrons.
1Ksons and zerkers are not competitive and they're supposed to be top tier. They're not. They're lame. Too expensive...way too expensive for what they do. Also, you can't really make an accurate 1Ksons army. And the suggestion of using another codex to represent a chaos army is ridiculous and shows the inadequacies of the codex.
I'm not asking for OP though many of you fixate that that's what we're asking. We'd just want our most famous units to be good enough so you wouldn't be classified as "mentally disabled" for taking them.
Then there's the matter of fluff. There's no fluffy units. That might not matter to some. Some just play for the game and say "Eh, whatever. The codex works." But it doesn't represent the army many of us have played and wish to continue to play. That's another problem.
Many units just suck. Mutilators are lame. They're a close combat unit that can't really assault anything. Warp Talons exchanged grenades for a power that is super expensive and doesn't really do anything. Chosen, too expensive for what they are. Anyone actually use them? Etc etc. What I'm saying is that there are too many units that no one's going to take except to "try to make them work." and "Maybe I can fit them in for this one specific battle."
Yes, you can make other lists and some of them are good and fun, but it's hard to use the Codex and get the armies we want without fudging and making up a bunch of stuff. "I can use GK for 1Ksons!" Utterly defeats the purpose of having a Chaos Codex.
And 2 pages of rules per supplement isn't enough to fix all the glaring problems.
The Warpsmith is the best addition though. That guy is fluffy, looks good and is interesting to play. (though hard to make competitive.)
Zweischneid wrote: Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).
Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers think little of less unified legions with differing outlooks. The Word Bearers have even openly insulted Abaddon and the Black Legion.
And I just said the undivided legions are all easy to make lists for and cover all bases, the cult legions? Not so much.
Kain wrote: The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!
Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.
Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.
I used to play chaos. Shame.
Funny you should argue that the current codex is a rotting turd because you can't get "cult termies, raptors, bikers, etc..." because guess what? You couldn't get ALL that in the 3.5 codex either! Comically enough, the Legions have all gained massively in options, but because they don't have a bunch of special snowflake rules, apparently GW sucks and hates all of us poor, deprived CSM players...
Back under the 3.5 codex the Legions restrictions were;
- Deathguard had 0 raptors and could not take ANY heavy weapons at all. Only 0-2 Troops units could take Rhinos - any more and those unit/s moved to the Fast Attack slot.
- Thousand Sons had no access to Bikers, Raptors or Havocs! (and Rubric Termies were disgustingly expensive and could not buy any upgrades to boot, while Possessed & Chosen were so expensive they were unplayable!)
- World Eaters couldn't take Raptors or Havocs.
- Emp's Children couldn't take Raptors.
Oh, and let's not forget that none of the 4 mono-God Legions had access to Oblits either, since at the time Oblits couldn't buy a mark of chaos!
So please, stop crying about how the Legions have actually gained options!
I disliked the 3.5 codex myself. None of the Chaos books have represented the cults in a satisfactory way for me. It's always undivided this, undivided that, bleh.
Which is why by now me and those who play with me just broke the CSM book into ten homebrewed minidexes, one for each legion and one for the corsairs.
The Vanilla CSM book is now Codex: Black Legion with some tweaks (mainly SC related.)
Zweischneid wrote: Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).
Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers think little of less unified legions with differing outlooks. The Word Bearers have even openly insulted Abaddon and the Black Legion.
And I just said the undivided legions are all easy to make lists for and cover all bases, the cult legions? Not so much.
Word Bearers as a legion don't exist. They split into 1000 Chapters, much like the Loyalists did. The largest known remaining Word Bearer ship serves Huron as his flag-ship. Significant parts of what used to be Word Bearers either turned all-out-khorne (the Sanctified) or joined with Night Lords left-overs (Warriors of Aggannor)
And everyone has insulted everyone among Chaos Space Marines. That's the point. Those aren't alliances of convenience. A Chaos Force is a motley crew of various splinter groups united only by the force of a dominant lord of daemon prince... for as long as he can keep them pointed at the enemy instead of tearing each others' throats out. That's the point.
Umm no, the Word Bearers are explicitly united under the Dark Council and generally go "aww they think they're people" to other legions at best for not being as united, disciplined, and totally into Chaos undivided as they are. The Legion's cohesiveness and camaraderie is like one of the DEFINING things about the Sons of Lorgar.
Read the Word Bearers books by Reynold. Everyone is under the Council in the legion, no exception. The hosts all answer to the First Chaplain and the Keeper of the Faith.
Read the Word Bearers books by Reynold. Everyone is under the Council in the legion, no exception. The hosts all answer to the First Chaplain and the Keeper of the Faith.
Read the Word Bearers books by Reynold. Everyone is under the Council in the legion, no exception. The hosts all answer to the First Chaplain and the Keeper of the Faith.
Read the Codex. They are not.
Black Library is not canon.
Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.
Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.
Perhaps. But than, at the very least, there are two contradicting versions within that canon. The Studio-version and the BL-version.
Can't blame the Codex, made by the Studio, for sticking to the Studio-version, and not the BL-version (of one author).
Especially as said author had to "only" fill a few hundred pages about World Bearers. The studio-guys have to consider all Codexes and armies in the context of all other armies. And in that context... "uniform, disciplined Space Marines that answer to a higher authority" are well represented by the various Loyalist Dexes (even if you paint them with a burning book on the shoulder).
The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.
Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.
Perhaps. But than, at the very least, there are two contradicting versions within that canon. The Studio-version and the BL-version.
Can't blame the Codex, made by the Studio, for sticking to the Studio-version, and not the BL-version (of one author).
Especially as said author had to "only" fill a few hundred pages about World Bearers. The studio-guys have to consider all Codexes and armies in the context of all other armies. And in that context... "uniform, disciplined Space Marines" are well represented by the various Loyalist Dexes (even if you paint them with a burning book on the shoulder).
The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.
The word bearers have always been the evil twin of the ultramarines, like everything about Guillaman's boys being twisted to evil. This includes essentially being the ideal for their faction.
The Ultramarines for better or for worse are listened to, the Word Bearers get shut out like jehovah's witneses by other Legions. Erebus and Kor Phaeron along with the Apostles of the council are the lords of the legion in Lorgar's stead, ruling over daemon worlds like a dark mirror of Ultramar.
But if they tried that with say, the world eaters, Angron would shove Kor's head up Erebus' evil ass and bat them back to Sicarius.
Zweischneid wrote: Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).
Zweischneid wrote: Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!
Some people don't find this thematically appealing.
Zweischneid wrote: The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.
Ever heard of aspect warriors?
The reason the studio is playing up the "mix-of-many-different-things" angle is to they don't have to be bothered to come up with any differentiating features. Chaos is like a kitchen full of ingredients. But instead of selectively combining the ingredients to create 9 distinct flavorful courses the studio has dumped all the ingredients into 1 big food processor and hit blend. The result is a flavorless inedible mush.
And riddle me this. If the Chaos codex is supposed to represent warbanz with a mix of members from different legions, why does my squad of Night Lords perform identically to my squad of Word Bearers? What self-respecting son of Nostramo would accept a challenge to duel a space marine captain in single combat when he has a whole squad of raptors backing him up?
Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.
The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.
Well I guess you advocate it being Codex: Black Legion then.
Could we get some actual chaos warbands that aren't black legion?
Besides Eldar do that better, Dark Eldar even do that better, then we've got Tau which..are supposed to be (but failed with the failures of kroot), but with multi-species instead of legion...
Kain wrote: The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!
Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.
Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.
I used to play chaos. Shame.
Funny you should argue that the current codex is a rotting turd because you can't get "cult termies, raptors, bikers, etc..." because guess what? You couldn't get ALL that in the 3.5 codex either! Comically enough, the Legions have all gained massively in options, but because they don't have a bunch of special snowflake rules, apparently GW sucks and hates all of us poor, deprived CSM players...
Back under the 3.5 codex the Legions restrictions were;
- Deathguard had 0 raptors and could not take ANY heavy weapons at all. Only 0-2 Troops units could take Rhinos - any more and those unit/s moved to the Fast Attack slot.
- Thousand Sons had no access to Bikers, Raptors or Havocs! (and Rubric Termies were disgustingly expensive and could not buy any upgrades to boot, while Possessed & Chosen were so expensive they were unplayable!)
- World Eaters couldn't take Raptors or Havocs.
- Emp's Children couldn't take Raptors.
Oh, and let's not forget that none of the 4 mono-God Legions had access to Oblits either, since at the time Oblits couldn't buy a mark of chaos!
So please, stop crying about how the Legions have actually gained options!
Now I know you're just saying what you want without reading my posts because I never mentioned 3.5. I'm saying the last codex was dry, boring and disappointing and this new one is the same thing with a stronger emphasis on Nurgle and hellturkies.
Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.
Perhaps. But than, at the very least, there are two contradicting versions within that canon. The Studio-version and the BL-version.
Can't blame the Codex, made by the Studio, for sticking to the Studio-version, and not the BL-version (of one author).
Black Library is indeed canon. Hate to burst your bubble. (Just kidding, I love bursting your bubble in particular). You can pretend it's not, but it is.
Especially as said author had to "only" fill a few hundred pages about World Bearers. The studio-guys have to consider all Codexes and armies in the context of all other armies. And in that context... "uniform, disciplined Space Marines that answer to a higher authority" are well represented by the various Loyalist Dexes (even if you paint them with a burning book on the shoulder).
Emphasis mine. Clearly the Chaos Space Marine codex fails to accurately represent one of the Chaos Legions...AGAIN
The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.
Oh right, you're the guy who thinks it's "fluffy" to have a Slaaneshi sorcerer leading Khorne Berserkers.
Ailaros wrote this in my thread asking about Chaos Space Marines.
Ailaros wrote:
There are two things I really like about them.
The first thing is the fluff. They've done a bad job with the current codex, but if you branch out, there's some wonderful stuff there.
I mean, we're talking about a spiritual realm made of liquid id, that space marines need to completely supress to the point where they become inhuman automatons. Then, the absolute peak of humanity - strongest, best trained, best equipped, gods among men - have the faintest glimmer of what it's like to be human again, and instantly they rebel. They use their incredible power to explore what being human really means. They spend the remainder of their possibly immortal lives discovering the extent of human knowledge or experience, or they are allowed to continue on their path of the warrior, but to do so with the ameteur zeal and personal joy that comes with being able to try things out, and improve your skill in your own creative way. You get to be the best YOU can be, not the best someone else trains you to be, and no further.
... and spending your free time butchering those who castrated your humanity, and engaging on a never-ending quest to liberate the rest of mankind from the most brutal, oppressive regime in its history. They're the only civil liberty revolutionaries in the fluff.
Also, there are some other neat tidbits. Like, read the current fluff for The Scourged (p.15). They were a chapter of space marines working with the inquisition. Their job was to rout out heretics and burn them alive. The chapter master thought is problematic (or at least inefficient) that they might be burning tens of thousands of innocent people, and so, while meditating on a solution, Tzeentch bestowed upon his whole chapter the magical ability to always tell when someone was lying. The next day, they show up for their briefing with the inquisitor, and he says "Hey, great job yesterday, everybody. We killed a lot of guilty heretics, and have made mankind much safer. Keep up the good work, and remember that you're making a big difference".
... and they all immediately understand that 100% of what the inquisitor just said is a complete lie. And they instantly flipped over to chaos. The fluff contains several examples of the idea that all you need to do to make a space marine switch over to chaos is make them just a little bit better at their jobs. It's all you need for them to take matters into their own hands and apply their own genius and creativity, and take their own initiative. And that, really, is the core of what separates a regular marine from a chaos one. That and eventually they get mutations and start praising gods that exist, rather than ones that don't.
The second thing I like about CSM is how they play on the table. They are 100% aggressive, 100% of the time. Going through their current codex and looking for units that exist only to engage in long-range shooting, and you have certain (but not all) builds of havocs, and predators, and... umm... sort of vindicators and sort of autocannon forgefiends and.... that's pretty much it. Everything else is either geared towards close combat or 12" shooting.
They're also a marine army, which means that you get the kind of basic durability required to actually make it to your opponent, and the kind of damage that they can put out is shocking.
For the price of 10 THSS terminators, you can get 20 khrone berzerkers with veterans. On the charge, those berzerkers get 80 attacks that hit on rerollable 3's, and wound on 3's. That's 47 armor saves, which means 8 dead terminators. The few hammers swing back, and the survivors are pulped the next turn. I bet you've never seen THSS terminators disappear in close combat like that, much less to nothing more than a bunch of lunatics with chainsaw swords.
And that's just one example. 10 combi-plasma terminators with power axes and MoK can do hideous damage, and even when you scale down, you've got things like maulerfiends (which I've seen take down land raiders on the charge with a single round of attacking) and khorne lords with axes of blind fury. It's really not that hard for most properly kitted chaos squads to completely pulp something they come across in a single action.
They're an army of going over to your opponent's side of the board, at land raider, jump pack or infiltrator speeds (or just on foot) and beating them up like a bunch of thugs. Stone cold gangster.
If I had to say a third thing about them, I'd also note that there is the most possible modelling opportunities second maybe only to orks. If you run a nurgle army, you get to spend a lot of time with greenstuff if you want, and if you're skilled, make some really stunning work. There's a lot that you can do and still have it look chaosey.
Anyways, I guess the short pitch for CSM is to imagine that you had semi-immortality, and semi-invincibility, and all the power you can use. What would you do with that kind of godlike ability? What would you do after that? What would you do 1,000 years after that after your initial petty goals were accomplished? What would it be like to really be a god? What if you fielded a whole army of them?
That's what CSM is about.
I think this is written so well, that nothing else can be said.
For the price of 10 THSS terminators, you can get 20 khrone berzerkers with veterans. On the charge, those berzerkers get 80 attacks that hit on rerollable 3's, and wound on 3's. That's 47 armor saves, which means 8 dead terminators. The few hammers swing back, and the survivors are pulped the next turn. I bet you've never seen THSS terminators disappear in close combat like that, much less to nothing more than a bunch of lunatics with chainsaw swords.
That's neat, because guess what else you can get for that many points? A lot of things. An allied Dark Angels Librarian LVL 2 with Divination in a Guard blob with plasma which will ANNIHILATE the Khorne Berserkers. Ailaros has played a total of two games with his list, one of which was against a crap GK list and the other one he got really lucky (which I believe he acknowledged).
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
And that's just one example. 10 combi-plasma terminators with power axes and MoK can do hideous damage, and even when you scale down, you've got things like maulerfiends (which I've seen take down land raiders on the charge with a single round of attacking) and khorne lords with axes of blind fury. It's really not that hard for most properly kitted chaos squads to completely pulp something they come across in a single action.
Yeah and on the other anecdotal side I've seen combi-plasma terminators with power axes do jack diddly against Dark Eldar and maulerfiends get annihilated for an easy first blood.
They're an army of going over to your opponent's side of the board, at land raider, jump pack or infiltrator speeds (or just on foot) and beating them up like a bunch of thugs. Stone cold gangster.
If I had to say a third thing about them, I'd also note that there is the most possible modelling opportunities second maybe only to orks. If you run a nurgle army, you get to spend a lot of time with greenstuff if you want, and if you're skilled, make some really stunning work. There's a lot that you can do and still have it look chaosey.
Nurgle is by far one of the laziest, most boring conversion armies available and they're only outdone by Orks. A baby could greenstuff a Nurgle marine. Why do you think Forgeworld does so much nurgle? It's the typical "durr green blobs lol"
Anyways, I guess the short pitch for CSM is to imagine that you had semi-immortality, and semi-invincibility, and all the power you can use. What would you do with that kind of godlike ability? What would you do after that? What would you do 1,000 years after that after your initial petty goals were accomplished? What would it be like to really be a god? What if you fielded a whole army of them?
If I had what Ailaros claims to believe is true, I wouldn't run them like morons in 20 man blobs that's for sure.
That's what CSM is about.
Playing them counter to most established background? Okay.
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
50 Guard is 250 points, 5 Plasma Guns is another 75 and Power Axes go for 10 points a pop. Without the Librarian you're at 375 points. With the Librarian, you're going to have to outspend the Berzerkers to get that unit alone, not to mention the other ally tax parts, and you'll still not kill enough Berzerkers with that blob to stop them from getting into CC with you. You don't take an IG blob with a MEQHQ for its killing power, you take it because it's a lot of bodies that won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
As someone who plays Black Templars, blobs of 20 get into close combat much more often than you'd imagine. It's not that easy to put down 40+ MEQs/SEQs (is there even an expression for T4 4+ infantry? If not, they are now "Scout equivalents") before they reach your lines, and Khorne Berzerkers are all MEQ.
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.
Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)
40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444
Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.
Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.
Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)
40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444
Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.
Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
Whoops, I had forgotten counter-attack in return.
Also I was meaning three groups of three (I've never really seen a full 6 group before, but then the Necrons I face don't use destroyer lords)
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
Whoops, I had forgotten counter-attack in return.
Also I was meaning three groups of three (I've never really seen a full 6 group before, but then the Necrons I face don't use destroyer lords)
Well, considering the Berzerkers more or less tie with 2 units of 6, 3 units of 3 would probably fare worse still.
Black Library is indeed canon. Hate to burst your bubble. (Just kidding, I love bursting your bubble in particular). You can pretend it's not, but it is.
You're not bursting my bubble. I know large parts of dakka suffer that delusion.
And I don't need to pretend anything. I can just read the statements made by authors such as Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden.
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -- Gav Thorpe
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." -- Andy Hoare
"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting." -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
You might be bursting Black Library's bubble though, cause they fought long and hard to have creative license and not be forced to write "canon".
Than again, you're probably bursting not any bubbles unless you actually back up your opinion about why BL should be canon with something other than.. well.. your opinion.
Black Library is indeed canon. Hate to burst your bubble. (Just kidding, I love bursting your bubble in particular). You can pretend it's not, but it is.
You're not bursting my bubble. I know large parts of dakka suffer that delusion.
And I don't need to pretend anything. I can just read the statements made by authors such as Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden.
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -- Gav Thorpe
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." -- Andy Hoare
"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting." -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
You might be bursting Black Library's bubble though, cause they fought long and hard to have creative license and not be forced to write "canon".
Than again, you're probably bursting not any bubbles unless you actually back up your opinion about why BL should be canon with something other than.. well.. your opinion.
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
"In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to 'tell good stories'. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40K worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.
It's official, that much is said and agreed upon Zwei.
MWHistorian wrote: If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong.
"Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.
No it definitely is not a good selling point. The other scary thing is how relatively new it is. It hasn't been out very long, and it is already showing major problems.
It is virtually impossible to make an army out of the CSM book by itself that will win a major tournament. In fact, I would say it can't be done in the current meta. The options
are just not there, and 2-3 Heldrakes isn't going to do it.
I think we will see this quite often with the new codex releases. They're looking at releasing them every 2 months (?), they're all going to be rush jobs IMO. I can see many new codexes with severe flaws and one decent flyer. I'm glad the SW codex isn't getting updated for a while - something tells me the new one will be awful!
I just don't think they apply any logic or rationality when they make the codexes nowadays? They're not framed within the context of the rules and other codexes, they're seemingly not framed in any way what-so-ever.
I still love to play 40k. But I'm getting more and more out of small scale skirmish games (Necromunda/Infinity!).
MWHistorian wrote: If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong. "Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.
No it definitely is not a good selling point. The other scary thing is how relatively new it is. It hasn't been out very long, and it is already showing major problems.
It is virtually impossible to make an army out of the CSM book by itself that will win a major tournament. In fact, I would say it can't be done in the current meta. The options are just not there, and 2-3 Heldrakes isn't going to do it.
I think we will see this quite often with the new codex releases. They're looking at releasing them every 2 months (?), they're all going to be rush jobs IMO. I can see many new codexes with severe flaws and one decent flyer. I'm glad the SW codex isn't getting updated for a while - something tells me the new one will be awful!
I just don't think they apply any logic or rationality when they make the codexes nowadays? They're not framed within the context of the rules and other codexes, they're seemingly not framed in any way what-so-ever.
I still love to play 40k. But I'm getting more and more out of small scale skirmish games (Necromunda/Infinity!).
Agreed. have an Exalt
I find this true with the current latest codex's (i.e. Tau and Eldar), I think they just thought of a cool rule (such as supporting fire and battle focus for example) and just wrote it in with no time to playtest it. I constantly get a good thumping with my CSM not because of what my opponents take, which I have nothing against, its what happens with some generic rules that the games developers wrote just to make the codex different from its previous version, that people can use and I effectively have no defence against that army because... well... its too quick, before I get the chance to fight back I already see all my MEQ's gone in a flash.. my CSM squads have been AP 2 shot to death or have been shot from afar, and that makes them dead as a door nail without getting much back from that squad...
I now feel like im having to be shoehorned into a Plague marines, Noise marines and Helldrakes soon, just to combat the armies just released and tbh it is a sad day when some rules form different armies change your list so much that you have to choose these options because anything else is just plainly is not viable anymore. That should not be the case imo, you should be changing your list because your opponent has a better strategic mind, not because of some rules here and there, but that's just my opinion. I also agree that I feel like I am also getting more out of skirmish games now or games that require not at lot of models now, to me I am getting more fun out of them than I do with my CSM... Oh well hopefully Orks will get their update next year and I will have a blast with them.. hopefully..
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
Uhhhhh....have you ever played against Wraiths before? They move 12", ignore cover, and can have Whipcoils so you are striking last. So more like if Berserkers get the charge.
50 Guard is 250 points, 5 Plasma Guns is another 75 and Power Axes go for 10 points a pop. Without the Librarian you're at 375 points. With the Librarian, you're going to have to outspend the Berzerkers to get that unit alone, not to mention the other ally tax parts, and you'll still not kill enough Berzerkers with that blob to stop them from getting into CC with you. You don't take an IG blob with a MEQHQ for its killing power, you take it because it's a lot of bodies that won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Right, I'm used to playing Conscripts so that's why I said 200.
Even with 40 Guard at 200, then 4 plasma guns is 260. Level 2 Librarian makes it 360. Platoon Command Squad makes it 390.
A Prescienced Squad of 40 Guard with Plasma Guns with First Rank Fire spits out 64 lasgun shots, 48 hit, 16 wound, 5.3 Berserkers bite the dust. Then with 4 plasma guns, 3 hit, 2.49 Berserkers bite the dust. 7.82 die at 24" away. There's no way they're going to make it into combat with more than 5 guys at the very best.
A Prescienced Guard blob has a lot more killing power than you would expect, trust me on that one. :3
As someone who plays Black Templars, blobs of 20 get into close combat much more often than you'd imagine. It's not that easy to put down 40+ MEQs/SEQs (is there even an expression for T4 4+ infantry? If not, they are now "Scout equivalents") before they reach your lines, and Khorne Berzerkers are all MEQ.
You mean, maybe 5 or 6 guys make it into combat? I seriously doubt that a full blob of 20 guys is going to make it into combat intact.
Kain wrote: They're saying that nothing is canon, codices included.
Everything is just one of many interpretations, all equally valid, including outright fanfiction so long as the 40k logo is on it.
They are.
But it is Black Library that is saying it to safeguard their (hard-won) freedom to be able to write stuff that disagrees with the Studio stuff.
It's important to realize who is pushing this idea of "everything and nothing is equally valid" (e.g. Black Library) and why (precisely so they are not bound by some Studio-canon),
Again, see Dan Abnett (Minute 17 forward)
That "paradigm" of "everything is personal interpretation", which is referenced throughout, is one build up by Black Library to defend the encroachment of the Studio trying to force "canon" on them, which they resisted.
"In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to 'tell good stories'. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40K worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.
It's official, that much is said and agreed upon Zwei.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
Uhhhhh....have you ever played against Wraiths before? They move 12", ignore cover, and can have Whipcoils so you are striking last. So more like if Berserkers get the charge.
Whip Coils increase your cost and only work on models in B2B anyway. The underlined part wasn't to question if Wraiths got the charge or not (they probably would, as you say), it was to point out that it's best-case scenario for the Wraiths.
Also, see previous posts for explanation of error in my calculation.
somerandomidiot wrote: Ok, let me preface this with: my primary army is Thousand Sons. I have a beautifully painted Thousand Sons army, and I regularly take them to both local tournaments and GTs and do decently well with them. In my local scene particularly, I do very well. That said...
The real issue with the 6th edition Chaos Marine book is that it doesn't support the armies that people want to play. GW has given us this AMAZING backstory with chaos legions, the Horus Heresy, chaos gods, and then given us a codex that doesn't represent that at all. When I look at the 6th edition Chaos book (and the last one, for that matter) what I see is a book intended to represent chaos renegade forces.
I think a comparison best illustrates this. If I wanted to start an Eldar army, and I really enjoyed the fluff of Ulthwe, I'm given some background guidance (Ulthwe is heavily focused in psychic powers, and they utilize black guardians) but at the end of the day, an Ulthwe force can contain EVERY unit in the Eldar codex. This allows an Ulthwe player to use the full width and breadth of his codex to build everything from purely fluffy lists to extreme competitive ones. On the other hand, we have my Thousand Sons army. I'm given some background guidance (the Thousand Sons are heavily psychic focused, every marine is either a psyker or dust in a suit of armor, they worship Tzeentch). But unlike the Ulthwe army, there are numerous units in my codex that do not belong in my Thousand Sons force. Ignoring small issues like Tzeentch-marked Terminators not actually being Thousand Sons terminators (which while annoying, is a battle I gave up on long ago), I'm still playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY reduced codex. I can't speak for the other chaos legion players, but I have a feeling they'd probably agree with me.
Now, you may argue that there's nothing preventing me from running Plague Marines, or a Khorne lord on a Juggernaut, or anything else for that matter, but I believe that the fluff is very clear, those units don't belong in a Thousand Sons army. Games Workshop has sold me on an army concept and then failed to deliver the rules to support it. Imagine if the background for Iyanden stated that every living Eldar on the craftworld was dead, and only the Wraith constructs were left. Iyanden players would be limited to a very small number of units if they wished to remain consistent with the background. Sure, they can take all of the other units, but they would have to paint them in the colors of other craftworlds. It wouldn't be an Iyanden army any more, it'd be a coalition of Eldar forces. I doubt Iyanden players would be very happy with the current Eldar book if that was the case.
I hope what you're getting from this isn't "I want the Chaos book to be all powerful and crush everyone, with millions of options." What I hope you get from this is that I want to have access to a full codex's list of options and units regardless of the theme I choose to play (without completely overpowering the player who chooses to ignore fluff and take simply the most powerful options), instead of having each theme limit me to a fraction of the codex. I've stopped expanding my Thousand Sons army because I won't ever use more than the models I have in a single game. My list of thematic choices removes a large number of possibilities from the codex, and every one of those is a unit that I will never buy or paint. Not only is this frustrating for me as a player, but I can't imagine GW is happy with the situation either- they've produced many kits that supposedly cater to my chosen army, but that I will never purchase.
I love how everyone ignored this.
This is exactly what it feels like to play any type of fluffy army. Fourth Ed and Fifth Ed allowed that. But Sixth ed kind of got rid of that fluffyness. In Codex Space Marines. I went from having apothecaries in every squad that can dual wield bolters and chainswords but I can't take fast attack to veteran sergeants with no fluffy weapons.
Chaos Space Marines codex should be renamed as Space Marine : Renegades. Not a chaos book per say. As it does not give you the options to kit out your army the way you want.
in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels.
Did you?
It says that the studio work can ignore the black library stuff if it wants to, but that black library stuff can't ignore the studio.
That means it's Official till changed bro.
But that was the point.
The question was, whether or not things unique to Black Library books (e.g. the details of the Word Bearers' Dark Council and the supposed unit it instills across the Word Bearer splinter groups) has any relevance to the 40K Canon. Since it is only mentioned in Black Library novels, not in Studio-stuff, and by the things you quote, studio people (writing, for example, a Chaos Space Marine Codex) are free to ignore it, it's not canon.
Whether or not Black Library has to respect the Codex is irrelevant. The fact is, that trying to make claims that a given Codex (e.g. Chaos Space Marines) is a bad representation of Chaos fluff because it doesn't synch with something in a Black Library book goes the other way.
I never said you can ignore the Studio
I said you can ignore Black Library (e.g. the Word Bearer trilogy, the Iron Warriors books, the Night Lords trilogy, etc..), when talking about canon Chaos Space Marine fluff.
It's the same thing you have with ... dunno .. non-canon Star Wars fan-fiction. Even the non-canon stuff cannot ignore the canon. They have to respect the basic things, e.g. Luke Skywalker destroyed the Death Star, etc.. . Doesn't mean that they are canon in return.
Ergo
GW Studio = Should not be contradicted = Canon
Black Library = Can be ignored/contradicted = Not Canon
That's not how it works, but at the same time I'm not gonna press further because I know you're not exactly going to change your tune.
Well. How does it work?
If I am missing something vital, I'd be thankful for some enlightenment.
The entire discussion was initiated by the claim that the CSM Codex was "unfluffy" because it didn't allow you to make mono-Legion armies as seen in Black Library books (e.g. Word Bearers, Iron Warrior, etc..).
If, by your own admission, the Codex writers are free to ignore the Black Library books, I don't see how a Codex could be judged against things established in a Black Library novel?
All sources save for the 6e codex concerning the Word Bearers agree that the 17th Legion (And the Iron warriors to a lesser extent) is special for maintaining so much unity and that the Dark Council leads it at the behest of the first chaplain and keeper of faith. Including past Codexes in fact. I can even bring in Void Dragon to give you a more detailed explanation as typing long blocks of text on a tab is a pain.
Kain wrote: All sources save for the 6e codex concerning the Word Bearers agree that the 17th Legion is special for maintaining so much unity and that the Dark Council leads it at the behest of the first chaplain and keeper of faith. I can even bring in Void Dragon to give you a more detailed explanation as typing long blocks of text on a tab is a pain.
It seems that Kelly is the one in error here.
Perhaps.
But the most recent Codex is the one that counts. It supersedes older Codex books. It supersedes Black Library books. It's the official version as it stands.
Was it a mistake? Maybe.
Are the Black Library versions better? Probably
Is Phil Kelly a tool that can't be bothered to do proper research? Most definitely.
Doesn't change the fact that the 6th Edition Chaos Codex is the "canonical" entry we have.
Kain wrote: All sources save for the 6e codex concerning the Word Bearers agree that the 17th Legion is special for maintaining so much unity and that the Dark Council leads it at the behest of the first chaplain and keeper of faith. I can even bring in Void Dragon to give you a more detailed explanation as typing long blocks of text on a tab is a pain.
It seems that Kelly is the one in error here.
Perhaps.
But the most recent Codex is the one that counts. It supersedes older Codex books. It supersedes Black Library books. It's the official version as it stands.
Was it a mistake? Maybe.
Are the Black Library versions better? Probably
Is Phil Kelly a tool that can't be bothered to do proper research? Most definitely.
Doesn't change the fact that the 6th Edition Chaos Codex is the "canonical" entry we have.
It's probably a bad attempt at retconning literally everything written about the Word Bearers so you can shoehorn Dark Apostles into your WARBANZ.
That being said making a mono 17th legion list is easy.
Dark Apostle
Chaos Lord ((Call him a Coryphaus))
Elites are a split between these
Terminators (Named the anointed but otherwise normal)
Possessed
Helbrutes
Troops
Lots of cultists to soak bullets
Marines with an Icon of vengeance each
Fast attack
Chaos spawn or Dreadclaws
Heavy support
Havocs or Tanks, your choice.
Take few or no marks, only take undivided weapons and rewards.
Allies.
Stuff with daemons, just as long as it's not a monogod Daemon list, the 17th hates monotheists.
And you're done, it's not even all that uncompetetive.
Some think that having the Daemons be the primary detatchment is better but YMMV.
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
Ok look - this is basically why this entire whine sequence as regards to "fluff" has no credibility, and why the plight of poor chaos players has garnered little support... there NEVER WERE truly Noise Biker units or Plague Termies, or Rubric Havocs; Chaos players love 'fluff' unless it was written before or after the broken/unbalanced 3.5 edition Codex. In the 3.5Ed CSM codex you could NOT buy Noise Bikers or Rubric Havocs etc... you gave Chaos Space Marines an appropriate 'Mark' and additionally if you followed some certain restrictions you got a few other shared rules. This "Cult troops" idea is a misnomer. Except for the additional shared rules - Fluff wise this codex is NO different than any previous.
Now I get it - nobody likes to see their models/units lose something they once had (even if it was 10 years ago!) - but that IS literally what's happened with EVERY codex. CSM players love to compare Blood Angels but again Blood Angels gained some silly units - but lost universal Furious Charge, and universal Rage, and universal ability to Assault-out-of-overcharged-rhinos etc... all "fluffy" things that one could argue "define the chapter". In the interest of balance; the codex have all changed.
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
So if your group made your own rules and models, what is the problem? Are you not having fun now on how Chaos should be?
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
So if your group made your own rules and models, what is the problem? Are you not having fun now on how Chaos should be?
Nobody should suffer Codex: nurglite black legion alone.
Now I get it - nobody likes to see their models/units lose something they once had (even if it was 10 years ago!) - but that IS literally what's happened with EVERY codex. CSM players love to compare Blood Angels but again Blood Angels gained some silly units - but lost universal Furious Charge, and universal Rage, and universal ability to Assault-out-of-overcharged-rhinos etc... all "fluffy" things that one could argue "define the chapter". In the interest of balance; the codex have all changed.
Your realy comparing an BA using two rules two chaos players having ton of models illegal? From what I understand when the 4ed chaos codex came all NM were left with illegal bikers ,dreads , preds , havocks, lords ,AL lost cultists and so on . That is a bit different then losing FC. losing FC or to be more precise getting FC no longer base , but as a rule that an apothecary gives out , then having illegal models which you can't use because of WYSIWYG.
If BA codex removed tacticals , DC honor guard , change to arment of tacticals to something no one else uses and put all of them on bikes .
And if you claim that chaos players cry because 3.5 dex was op and 4th wasn't , then you are wrong . in 4th ed codex everyone got 9 oblits and cheap demon princes x2
Now I get it - nobody likes to see their models/units lose something they once had (even if it was 10 years ago!) - but that IS literally what's happened with EVERY codex. CSM players love to compare Blood Angels but again Blood Angels gained some silly units - but lost universal Furious Charge, and universal Rage, and universal ability to Assault-out-of-overcharged-rhinos etc... all "fluffy" things that one could argue "define the chapter". In the interest of balance; the codex have all changed.
Your realy comparing an BA using two rules two chaos players having ton of models illegal? From what I understand when the 4ed chaos codex came all NM were left with illegal bikers ,dreads , preds , havocks, lords ,AL lost cultists and so on . That is a bit different then losing FC. losing FC or to be more precise getting FC no longer base , but as a rule that an apothecary gives out , then having illegal models which you can't use because of WYSIWYG.
If BA codex removed tacticals , DC honor guard , change to arment of tacticals to something no one else uses and put all of them on bikes .
And if you claim that chaos players cry because 3.5 dex was op and 4th wasn't , then you are wrong . in 4th ed codex everyone got 9 oblits and cheap demon princes x2
Clearly, 'what you understand' is not what is actually the case here. Again this "cultist" idea is a misnomer... it's not actually how it worked. As for the NM noise weapons... yeah those weapon types across different units were lost; that is true and I can understand NM players being disappointed with this ...but that 4th edition CSM codex was flattened for legitimate balance issues; and the so-called "fluff" outrage is not a valid one... the 'cult troops' are made now the same way they were in the broken/unbalanced 3.5Ed Codex.
Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) - then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.
Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) -
How about no. Much of the Chaos background that came out after Rogue Trader was simply pleb-tier writing. Something you'd see out of World of Warcraft. Nice try though.
then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.
The difference is that EVERYONE lost the ability to charge out of Rhinos.
Also Blood Angels still gain Furious Charge from either their special rules or a Priest.
Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) -
How about no. Much of the Chaos background that came out after Rogue Trader was simply pleb-tier writing. Something you'd see out of World of Warcraft. Nice try though.
I have two big fat Realm of Chaos books in perfect condition that say you have no idea what you are talking about; as well as a 2nd edition Chaos codex.
then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.
The difference is that EVERYONE lost the ability to charge out of Rhinos.
Also Blood Angels still gain Furious Charge from either their special rules or a Priest.
You are being disingenuous here; ONLY the Blood Angels could ever assault out of fast moving rhinos; but yes in certain editions no troops could assault out of transports.
As to gaining Furious Charge with a priest or random roll ...well now we are in the same boat as CSM right? Haha ...exactly my point. Is my army suddenly not "fluffy" if I don't take Priests and miss all of the random rolls? Now you can take special characters and unluck/"gain" certain abilities. "Nice try though."
You are being disingenuous here; ONLY the Blood Angels could ever assault out of fast moving rhinos; but yes in certain editions no troops could assault out of transports.
As to gaining Furious Charge with a priest or random roll ...well now we are in the same boat as CSM right? Haha ...exactly my point. Is my army suddenly not "fluffy" if I don't take Priests and miss all of the random rolls? Now you can take special characters and unluck/"gain" certain abilities. "Nice try though."
Well lets see, with blood angels you'll end up making one of two armies. Blood angels, or Flesh Tearers... So yes you'd still be pretty fluffy, it's one book afterall, not trying to cram seven armies in that vary so wildly from amongst each other. Unlike C:SM.
Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) -
How about no. Much of the Chaos background that came out after Rogue Trader was simply pleb-tier writing. Something you'd see out of World of Warcraft. Nice try though.
I have two big fat Realm of Chaos books in perfect condition that say you have no idea what you are talking about; as well as a 2nd edition Chaos codex.
How about reading what I wrote. I can summarize it for you though, since if you want to get sarcastic I can too.
Vladsimpaler wrote: I don't care about most fluff past Rogue Trader, I think a lot of it sucks.
then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.
The difference is that EVERYONE lost the ability to charge out of Rhinos.
Also Blood Angels still gain Furious Charge from either their special rules or a Priest.
You are being disingenuous here; ONLY the Blood Angels could ever assault out of fast moving rhinos; but yes in certain editions no troops could assault out of transports.
As to gaining Furious Charge with a priest or random roll ...well now we are in the same boat as CSM right? Haha ...exactly my point. Is my army suddenly not "fluffy" if I don't take Priests and miss all of the random rolls? Now you can take special characters and unluck/"gain" certain abilities. "Nice try though."
Nice try though? Really now.
Sanguinary Priests (or the grail) have been around since 2nd edition and perform the same function that they always have: make Blood Angels close combat monsters. Of course your army is still true to the background if you don't take them, and Blood Angels don't always fall prey to the Red Thirst. Then again it's because ALL of your units have the Red Thirst special rule. So even if they don't fall prey to it, ALL Blood Angels units have The Red Thirst with the exception of course being the Death Company and Vehicles.
Sanguinary Priests (or the grail) have been around since 2nd edition and perform the same function that they always have: make Blood Angels close combat monsters. Of course your army is still true to the background if you don't take them, and Blood Angels don't always fall prey to the Red Thirst. Then again it's because ALL of your units have the Red Thirst special rule. So even if they don't fall prey to it, ALL Blood Angels units have The Red Thirst with the exception of course being the Death Company and Vehicles.
As to your first point, well clearly then I was mistaken regarding your meaning there... though you and Kain are in the minority here not holding up the 3.5Ed Codex as the Golden Standard of what Chaos should be *cough* "fluff" wise.
As to point above - (Kain and yourself aside apparently) most of this entire thread/rant has been a sad lament for the 3rd edition Codex 'glory days'... and in the 3rd edition ALL Blood Angels had Furious Charge/Rage, yet only the DC had the "Red Thirst"... ALL Blood Angels could assault out of fast moving rhinos because it was a defining characteristic for them; buff BA scouts were also a very "fluffy" thing. But obviously, see every codex in 40k, things change.
Sanguinary Priests (or the grail) have been around since 2nd edition and perform the same function that they always have: make Blood Angels close combat monsters. Of course your army is still true to the background if you don't take them, and Blood Angels don't always fall prey to the Red Thirst. Then again it's because ALL of your units have the Red Thirst special rule. So even if they don't fall prey to it, ALL Blood Angels units have The Red Thirst with the exception of course being the Death Company and Vehicles.
As to your first point, well clearly then I was mistaken regarding your meaning there... though you and Kain are in the minority here not holding up the 3.5Ed Codex as the Golden Standard of what Chaos should be *cough* "fluff" wise.
That's fine. Trust me, not all players prefer the "new" background. For what it's worth, I think that the best part of the new codex is the Mutation Chart. My only lament is that you can only buy a single gift of mutation and that the chart could have used a little more fine-tuning to make it more enjoyable, which of course one could argue is subjective anyway.
As to point above - (Kain and yourself aside apparently) most of this entire thread/rant has been a sad lament for the 3rd edition Codex 'glory days'... and in the 3rd edition ALL Blood Angels had Furious Charge/Rage, yet only the DC had the "Red Thirst"... ALL Blood Angels could assault out of fast moving rhinos because it was a defining characteristic for them; buff BA scouts were also a very "fluffy" thing. But obviously, see every codex in 40k, things change.
From my knowledge of the Blood Angels, all of them had the Red Thirst. I agree that they should have brought that stuff back instead of making it a random roll. And just because things change don't make them right.
For those of you too caught up in the discussion on which fluff is canon;
"This comes from a very solid source that has helped us verify rumors in the past
via an anonymous and solid source on Faeit 212
World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.
The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.
The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.
Tau have two more books; one for kroot and one for "the rest" of the expanded empire.
The above rumor was mostly a sources a response to the rumors posted that there would be no mono-god legions, and that Tau would be receiving more than just a mercenaries supplement."
Personally, I love the new book. It would be easier for me to point out flaws than what I love.
Disclamer: I am not a veteran in any sense of the word when it comes to Chaos. I've only played 1 game with the new codex, and that was with Thousand Sons against Heavy Weapon spamBlack Templars. I was slaughtered.
When it comes to the new Codex, I love the new units, and would only change one thing: give the Helldrake a tail. This new hatred of the "Dinobots" is hard to understand from my point of view. If anything the new models harken back to the days when Dreadnoughts looked like a Weaponized Squash. Cultists were a gigantic gain for the new book: they are one of the most flavourful, and in some cases the fluffiest, units in all of Codex Chaos Space Marines.
The argument made for he book being boring are easy to understand in some ways. Playing a mono-God or Mono-Legion list is rather one-dimensional, but that can be inferred from the title of the list. It's "Mono" for a reason.
Truly to love the Chaos codex, it will help to love chaos itself, and having a loose regard for the established background helps. I have always viewed the Chaos legions and warbands as having to work together to achieve things, and putting up with their differences until the enemy is dead. I usually explain the few times I want to field Berzerkers or Plague Marines in my Thousand Sons force is that they both benefit in some way.
To be honest, the Fluff will never join with the game completely. There is always a gap between the books and the tabletop. Just compare the Guard in the novels to the tabletop: In a good 80% of books with Guard fighting Marines, their Lasguns can't touch a Marine, and Marines can peel apart Leman Russ tanks with their Combat knives....
There is no way GW could represent this on thr Table without the Guard being effectively deleted from 40k. The reality is that Guardsmen can penetrate Marine armor with Lasguns. Otherwise the guard are no good.
Look at the God restrictions the same way; Chaos is bland in mono-god form, so at times it is better for the gamer to ignore the enmity between gods for their ownpleasure.
One last thought: There IS one rule that I would cram into the CSM codex, and that's the SW rule on 1 HQ unit taking 1/2 the slot. I would love to field 4 500pt armies that represent all 4 Chaos Gods equally. I seriously would.
Zweischneid wrote: Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).
Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!
the night lords dont even worship chaos. They simply hate the imperium. Some of the marines have since been corupted and started worshiping chaos, many or mono god but the legion itself does not. Their geneseed is not corrupted. They are the only true men in 40k, doing what they want when they want.
Zweischneid wrote: Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).
Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers think little of less unified legions with differing outlooks. The Word Bearers have even openly insulted Abaddon and the Black Legion.
And I just said the undivided legions are all easy to make lists for and cover all bases, the cult legions? Not so much.
yes, the word bearers also only worship chaos undivided as the source of absolute truth. They shun those who worship any one god as mindless slaves
I agree so much, I hope that someday I can take scarab occult with ap 3 combi-bolters, oh how splendid the destruction I would reap. I coudl wishlist for hours about my wishes for the supplements, I just hope above all that they bring back some of my beloved lost and damned units. Tzaangor and thrall wizards are all I've ever wanted, oh please gw, make my tzeentch army fun again
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.
Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)
40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444
Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.
Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
also zerkers have 2 attacks base, 3 attacks with pistols, and 4 attacks with counter charge.
so 20 zerkers is usually 80 attacks, if they all get into base.
If they get the charge somehow with their reroll or if the wraiths fail, they get 100 attacks at strength 5.
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.
Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)
40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444
Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.
Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
also zerkers have 2 attacks base, 3 attacks with pistols, and 4 attacks with counter charge.
so 20 zerkers is usually 80 attacks, if they all get into base.
If they get the charge somehow with their reroll or if the wraiths fail, they get 100 attacks at strength 5.
Zerkers are 1 attack base, 2 attacks with CCW/Pistol, 3 attacks with Counter, 4 attacks with rage.
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.
Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)
40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444
Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.
Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
also zerkers have 2 attacks base, 3 attacks with pistols, and 4 attacks with counter charge.
so 20 zerkers is usually 80 attacks, if they all get into base.
If they get the charge somehow with their reroll or if the wraiths fail, they get 100 attacks at strength 5.
Zerkers are 1 attack base, 2 attacks with CCW/Pistol, 3 attacks with Counter, 4 attacks with rage.
One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.
They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.
Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.
The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.
MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.
CSM and IG works well for Alpha Legion (old style fluff) or Word Bearers.
CSM and Death Korps of Kreig works well for Iron Warriors
Blood Angels worrks well for Night Lords
Necrons work well for Dark Mekanicus
Grey Knights work extremely well for Thousand Sons.
Once again, I find myself agreeing 100% with Aliaros when it comes to CSM. Which is odd given how often we've disagreed in the past concerning the IG.
You really shouldnt have to use IoM rules, that you cannot ally with, to model chaos warbands or legions. Also CSM really should be able to battlebrother ally with IG to better represent AL and IW. Undivided legions/warbands should really be able to take undivided daemon princes. Neither logar nor pertubo let anyone mark them, yet both are DPs
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akaean wrote: One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.
They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.
Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.
The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.
MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.
Except the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Nighlords, and Word Bearers still have considerably structures in place to fight as a legion or as similar chapter like entities. It is only the marked cult legions and black legion that have been completely shattered into warbands.
akaean wrote: One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.
They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.
Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.
The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.
MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.
And even then, the Warbands still would have Mono Terminators, Marked Vehicles, the Dark Mechanicus bringing forth new daemon weapons.
It's just weird when we can't even use the Hades Autocannon or Baleflamer with any of the older vehicles...
Except the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Nighlords, and Word Bearers still have considerably structures in place to fight as a legion or as similar chapter like entities. It is only the marked cult legions and black legion that have been completely shattered into warbands.
Fair enough. But even so 90% of the complaints I hear about the Chaos codex is that there aren't enough "cult units"- like Emporer's Children Sonic Terminators for example. All of the other legions to a large extent are going to be using generic Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, and Terminators which are most certainly available.
I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of missed oppotunities, but the direction Games Workshop has been choosing to move in for over 10 years has been a focus on individual Champions of Chaos and their associated accumulated Warband- which the codex does an acceptable, but not great, job of representing. Its not Ideal that Huron is necessary to guarentee infiltrators, or that Heldrakes are so overcentralizing on the competitive scene, or that Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles have such limited options compared to Lords and Sorcerers (There is no reason a Dark Apostle shouldn't be able to take a mount for instance). But to a large extent things are workable.
akaean wrote: One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.
They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.
Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.
The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.
MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.
Players "want" legion specific stuff because Chaos Marines have always been about the legions, not about warbands. Every Special Character is defined by their Legion, not which warband they are currently working with. Sure, somewhere I'm sure people play warband armies, but I can speak for my area, where our Chaos players include a Thousand Sons player (me), a Death Guard player, an Emperor's Children player, a Word Bearers player, and a new Iron Warriors player. Chaos players identify with their Legions, just like Space Marines identify with their Chapters (why else would Forgeworld make such wonderful doors and dreadnoughts?).
akaean wrote: One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.
They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.
Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.
The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.
MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.
Players "want" legion specific stuff because Chaos Marines have always been about the legions, not about warbands. Every Special Character is defined by their Legion, not which warband they are currently working with. Sure, somewhere I'm sure people play warband armies, but I can speak for my area, where our Chaos players include a Thousand Sons player (me), a Death Guard player, an Emperor's Children player, a Word Bearers player, and a new Iron Warriors player. Chaos players identify with their Legions, just like Space Marines identify with their Chapters (why else would Forgeworld make such wonderful doors and dreadnoughts?).
Not to mention that even then, it's been known that they sometimes get together under special circumstances. Angron went out, gathered up a ton of World Eaters and basically ripped a nice shiny hole through the Imperium.
As well as the fact those SC's are often with other members of their legion, Kharn doesn't suddenly hang out with Tzeentch warriors, but mostly other Marked Khornates and bezerkers.
Here's hoping the chaos supplements rumor is true and that they come soon, because the CSM book is aging badly, with terrifying speed.
And yes, it was a wasted chance. It would actually have been pretty simple to put in place a system for cult ANYTHING just by splitting the marks.
Mark of Khorne: Rage+Counterattack.
GREATER Mark of Khorne: Furious charge, Rage+Counterattack.
Mark of Slaanesh: +1 Ini.
GREATER Mark of Slaanesh: +1 Ini., Fleet
Mark of Nurgle: +1T
GREATER Mark of Nurgle: +1T, FNP
Mark of Tzeentch: +1 inv save
GREATER Mark of Tzeentch: +1 inv save, access to inferno bolts.
It's as simple as that: four extra lines of text. Want to have a Nurgle guy? Get the basic mark. Want a _plague marine_? Get the meaner, more expensive version. On basic marines, bikes, terminators, havocs, you name it. Link some of the more esoteric gear to each mark and you can expand on that almost infinitely and without much hassle.
As for the "Well, chaos are no longer legions", that's not a factor. Two separate World Eater warbands are still far more similar in rules, gear and style than a WE warband and a Night Lord warband.
Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.
So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.
Davor wrote: Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.
So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.
So what am I missing?
Because apparently they have to have an entire legion/chapter before they can use the better marked stuff. Because it's a warband it can't despite fielding so little.
Davor wrote: Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.
So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.
So what am I missing?
My apologies but this isn't a good logic. If you can accept a snowball, then I'd have to ask why Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templar, and DA need a real codex? They can simply use the loyalist codex. Along with that, I could argue why does the Marine codex have a way to play Salamanders and the sorts. Yet why do they need that when you will only be able to field (usually) at most 1/10th of a standard sized chapter. now then, snowballing done, it is because people like playing the legions they have grown to adore.
Sure I can play my Salamanders by bringing devestators melta heavy and giving all of my troops flamers. But it doesn't feel like I am playing Salamanders until I have those special rules that fit them perfectly. Sure I can play Blood Angels with my SM codex but then I give up things like black rage and the sorts that are intrinsic to the chapter. Now let us make it similar to the Chaos Space Marine codex. Grab them and slide them into the SM codex giving them a single hq that changes nothing besides making Jump troops. Then you only get the death company. The rest of your army doesn't even feel slightly like the blood angels besides two models in the entire army. The rest is simply Ultramarines fighting alongside Blood Angels.
We identify with legions and even if they have become warbands for the most part they still tend to keep to the style of the legion. A Iron Warrior will still likely favour siege weaponry and care not for chaos whilst a a NL former legion will still want to go scare tactics no matter what.
Davor wrote: Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.
So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.
So what am I missing?
You're right. You are ignorant.
You don't play chaos, do you?
We've always played legions. There are stories and history to the legions that appeal to us. Just because we're only playing a small part of that legion doesn't negate that.
Davor wrote: Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.
So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.
So what am I missing?
I think you're misunderstanding what we mean when we refer to legions. We don't want to field an entire legion, we want to field a force that consists entirely of members of one legion. Just like when you play Ultramarines, you don't field the entire Ultramarines chapter, but you do field a force of entirely Ultramarines, and don't include any Salamanders, or White Scars, or others. We feel the Chaos codex doesn't allow us to field forces that represent the members of our legion. The prevailing attitude at GW seems to be that the legions have been broken up and that we should field warbands consisting of members of multiple legions, worshipping multiple chaos gods. Those of us who wish to play forces of just one legion don't appreciate this attitude, and feel that the Chaos codex should offer more options for representing the members of our legion outside of one troops unit (be they Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, or Death Guard Plague Marines, etc).
I have a sizeable CSM force (some new, some old) and have had them since the fabled 3.5 dex.
I completely agree that the current dex if pretty lifeless. I have, since the dexes arrival, begun Orks and SM armies.
I didn't actually play back in the day so i cannot comment on 3.5's competitiveness but it sure looked like fun. I especially like the idea of upgrading your lord with deamon gifts until he takes enough to make him a DP. To me that makes it very fluffy. Your first couple of games you play with a Lord... every time he does well you "gift" him. It also had some cool non-SM upgrades (Kai gun, spikey bits etc...).
What makes it less tactically fun:
* Random powers (CSM were the first of the new "cinematic" codexes) on elite units really hurt their chance for you to play a tactical game with the units affected.
* Low troop mobility. With no access to Drop Pods, the flimsy Rhinos and no Deep Striking Troops. This means getting your Power Armour troops across the board is extremely tough and you opponent knows this. You basically have to bum rush your opponent. This is when all other armies have gotten way more mobile than when Rhinos were relevant. Eldar Shoot & Run makes it so much more obvious. Objective games means Chaos have to camp and hope to god they can get that midfield Objective.
* Must challenge. Nice and fluffy but can get in the way.
* New dino vehicles. In a edition of FMC/MC they are so meh in comparison to the other new toys on the table.
* HellDrake effect. I am one of the few people that thinks this unit sucks. I does very little for me but people can't stop banging on about its effectiveness an how OP they are. They die quite hard with rear 10. Give me a Riptide or Wratihknight instead any day of the week as a distracto unit.
I do not want an OP codex. I just want something with tactics, flair and fluff.
Davor wrote: Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.
So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.
So what am I missing?
I think you're misunderstanding what we mean when we refer to legions. We don't want to field an entire legion, we want to field a force that consists entirely of members of one legion. Just like when you play Ultramarines, you don't field the entire Ultramarines chapter, but you do field a force of entirely Ultramarines, and don't include any Salamanders, or White Scars, or others. We feel the Chaos codex doesn't allow us to field forces that represent the members of our legion. The prevailing attitude at GW seems to be that the legions have been broken up and that we should field warbands consisting of members of multiple legions, worshipping multiple chaos gods. Those of us who wish to play forces of just one legion don't appreciate this attitude, and feel that the Chaos codex should offer more options for representing the members of our legion outside of one troops unit (be they Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, or Death Guard Plague Marines, etc).
Thank you I understand where you are coming from now.
I do sigh every time someone says "Oh, just take this other cult unit. Or give your obliterators the mark of nurgle"
I play Slaanesh. Those are NOT options.
Then they tell me to quit complaining because I'm choosing to hamstring myself. Point is good options used to exist for ALL legions, and there were ways to make things that weren't fluffy INTO fluffy units.
Old emperor's children couldn't take obliterators because they weren't slaanesh marked. Who cared? I could have a Warp Amp predator with Doomsiren sponsons and blastmaster havocs. Characterful heavy support was there!
That being said, I've had success with the current codex. Maulerfiends with Spawn support, chaos lords with cultist shields (though having to take a powerfist with the mark of slaanesh is just sinful), and honestly even helbrutes are fine if you're taking 3 of them.
Except the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Nighlords, and Word Bearers still have considerably structures in place to fight as a legion or as similar chapter like entities. It is only the marked cult legions and black legion that have been completely shattered into warbands.
Fair enough. But even so 90% of the complaints I hear about the Chaos codex is that there aren't enough "cult units"- like Emporer's Children Sonic Terminators for example. All of the other legions to a large extent are going to be using generic Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, and Terminators which are most certainly available.
I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of missed oppotunities, but the direction Games Workshop has been choosing to move in for over 10 years has been a focus on individual Champions of Chaos and their associated accumulated Warband- which the codex does an acceptable, but not great, job of representing. Its not Ideal that Huron is necessary to guarentee infiltrators, or that Heldrakes are so overcentralizing on the competitive scene, or that Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles have such limited options compared to Lords and Sorcerers (There is no reason a Dark Apostle shouldn't be able to take a mount for instance). But to a large extent things are workable.
it's true. Half of CSM players want more cult units and half want more undivided units. it is really a case of there should be 2 books. Or 2 supliments that enhance fully marked armies or fully undivided armies.
That made my day. Bring on my 2+, 5++, FnP plagueterminators with Blight grenades!
Yeah, I know, doesn't sound too OP, but heck, thats got me jumping like a little schoolgirl!
//Calle
So.... Paladins with an apothecary +nades. Those better be damned expensive.
Well, if they do the suppliments properly, then keep in mind that a Deathguard army for example will likely not have any access to;
- non-vehicle mounted heavy weapons
- no Bikers or Raptors
- might even be restricted to how many Troops Rhinos they can take before they become Fast Attack
And it might even go further for example by also removing options like Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Warp Talons, Oblits, etc...
So when you're denied potentially upto half the basic CSM codex when playing a 'pure' Deathguard army, perks like really, really resilient Termies are needed.
That made my day. Bring on my 2+, 5++, FnP plagueterminators with Blight grenades!
Yeah, I know, doesn't sound too OP, but heck, thats got me jumping like a little schoolgirl!
//Calle
So.... Paladins with an apothecary +nades. Those better be damned expensive.
who knows if they will be WS5
They probably wont be 2 wounds
They probably wont all be psykers
They probably wont all have force weapons
They probably wont have psycannons
They will probably be inti3, making grenades, although nice not the best thing since sliced bread.
They probably will be fearless, meaning you know, chaos players might take terminators as combat troops.
That made my day. Bring on my 2+, 5++, FnP plagueterminators with Blight grenades!
Yeah, I know, doesn't sound too OP, but heck, thats got me jumping like a little schoolgirl!
//Calle
So.... Paladins with an apothecary +nades. Those better be damned expensive.
Considering how ridiculous Plague Marines are compared to all of the other cult units, I'm expecting them to be 30 point each. Seriously screw Nurgle.
But what about Kelly's boner for Nurgle and Slaanesh and burning hate for Khorne and Tzeentch?
Haha, that's why I was saying that plague terminators were only going to be 30 pts per guy. I'm expecting khorne berserker terminators to be 50 pts and for thousand son terminators to be 60 pts per guy
That made my day. Bring on my 2+, 5++, FnP plagueterminators with Blight grenades!
Yeah, I know, doesn't sound too OP, but heck, thats got me jumping like a little schoolgirl!
//Calle
So.... Paladins with an apothecary +nades. Those better be damned expensive.
Considering how ridiculous Plague Marines are compared to all of the other cult units, I'm expecting them to be 30 point each. Seriously screw Nurgle.
But what about Kelly's boner for Nurgle and Slaanesh and burning hate for Khorne and Tzeentch?
Haha, that's why I was saying that plague terminators were only going to be 30 pts per guy. I'm expecting khorne berserker terminators to be 50 pts and for thousand son terminators to be 60 pts per guy
You would think that Kyras' amazaballs speech on what it means to be Khornate or Prospero Burns would convince more people to like Tzeentch and Khorne.
Oi, don’t talk down on me boi Kelly. He did a good job on them berserkers. I mean just think about it for a moment, AP 4 chainaxes? That changes EVERYTHANG!
Give me 2 base attacks on World Eater berserkers, options to take more power weapons on the squad instead of boring plasma pistols, and Land Raider as a dedicated transport and all is forgiven.
Give me land raider variants for chaos and I'll post youtube videos of myself burning my Warmachine stuff and pledging to name my firstborn Ghamees Worshoppe.
I kid there. I just wonder if this was 
