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 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) -

How about no. Much of the Chaos background that came out after Rogue Trader was simply pleb-tier writing. Something you'd see out of World of Warcraft. Nice try though.

I have two big fat Realm of Chaos books in perfect condition that say you have no idea what you are talking about; as well as a 2nd edition Chaos codex.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.

The difference is that EVERYONE lost the ability to charge out of Rhinos.

Also Blood Angels still gain Furious Charge from either their special rules or a Priest.

You are being disingenuous here; ONLY the Blood Angels could ever assault out of fast moving rhinos; but yes in certain editions no troops could assault out of transports.

As to gaining Furious Charge with a priest or random roll ...well now we are in the same boat as CSM right? Haha ...exactly my point. Is my army suddenly not "fluffy" if I don't take Priests and miss all of the random rolls? Now you can take special characters and unluck/"gain" certain abilities. "Nice try though."

You are being disingenuous here; ONLY the Blood Angels could ever assault out of fast moving rhinos; but yes in certain editions no troops could assault out of transports.

As to gaining Furious Charge with a priest or random roll ...well now we are in the same boat as CSM right? Haha ...exactly my point. Is my army suddenly not "fluffy" if I don't take Priests and miss all of the random rolls? Now you can take special characters and unluck/"gain" certain abilities. "Nice try though."

Well lets see, with blood angels you'll end up making one of two armies. Blood angels, or Flesh Tearers... So yes you'd still be pretty fluffy, it's one book afterall, not trying to cram seven armies in that vary so wildly from amongst each other. Unlike C:SM.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) -

How about no. Much of the Chaos background that came out after Rogue Trader was simply pleb-tier writing. Something you'd see out of World of Warcraft. Nice try though.

I have two big fat Realm of Chaos books in perfect condition that say you have no idea what you are talking about; as well as a 2nd edition Chaos codex.

How about reading what I wrote. I can summarize it for you though, since if you want to get sarcastic I can too.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
I don't care about most fluff past Rogue Trader, I think a lot of it sucks.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.

The difference is that EVERYONE lost the ability to charge out of Rhinos.

Also Blood Angels still gain Furious Charge from either their special rules or a Priest.

You are being disingenuous here; ONLY the Blood Angels could ever assault out of fast moving rhinos; but yes in certain editions no troops could assault out of transports.

As to gaining Furious Charge with a priest or random roll ...well now we are in the same boat as CSM right? Haha ...exactly my point. Is my army suddenly not "fluffy" if I don't take Priests and miss all of the random rolls? Now you can take special characters and unluck/"gain" certain abilities. "Nice try though."

Nice try though? Really now.

Sanguinary Priests (or the grail) have been around since 2nd edition and perform the same function that they always have: make Blood Angels close combat monsters. Of course your army is still true to the background if you don't take them, and Blood Angels don't always fall prey to the Red Thirst. Then again it's because ALL of your units have the Red Thirst special rule. So even if they don't fall prey to it, ALL Blood Angels units have The Red Thirst with the exception of course being the Death Company and Vehicles.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Sanguinary Priests (or the grail) have been around since 2nd edition and perform the same function that they always have: make Blood Angels close combat monsters. Of course your army is still true to the background if you don't take them, and Blood Angels don't always fall prey to the Red Thirst. Then again it's because ALL of your units have the Red Thirst special rule. So even if they don't fall prey to it, ALL Blood Angels units have The Red Thirst with the exception of course being the Death Company and Vehicles.

As to your first point, well clearly then I was mistaken regarding your meaning there... though you and Kain are in the minority here not holding up the 3.5Ed Codex as the Golden Standard of what Chaos should be *cough* "fluff" wise.

As to point above - (Kain and yourself aside apparently) most of this entire thread/rant has been a sad lament for the 3rd edition Codex 'glory days'... and in the 3rd edition ALL Blood Angels had Furious Charge/Rage, yet only the DC had the "Red Thirst"... ALL Blood Angels could assault out of fast moving rhinos because it was a defining characteristic for them; buff BA scouts were also a very "fluffy" thing. But obviously, see every codex in 40k, things change.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Sanguinary Priests (or the grail) have been around since 2nd edition and perform the same function that they always have: make Blood Angels close combat monsters. Of course your army is still true to the background if you don't take them, and Blood Angels don't always fall prey to the Red Thirst. Then again it's because ALL of your units have the Red Thirst special rule. So even if they don't fall prey to it, ALL Blood Angels units have The Red Thirst with the exception of course being the Death Company and Vehicles.

As to your first point, well clearly then I was mistaken regarding your meaning there... though you and Kain are in the minority here not holding up the 3.5Ed Codex as the Golden Standard of what Chaos should be *cough* "fluff" wise.

That's fine. Trust me, not all players prefer the "new" background. For what it's worth, I think that the best part of the new codex is the Mutation Chart. My only lament is that you can only buy a single gift of mutation and that the chart could have used a little more fine-tuning to make it more enjoyable, which of course one could argue is subjective anyway.

As to point above - (Kain and yourself aside apparently) most of this entire thread/rant has been a sad lament for the 3rd edition Codex 'glory days'... and in the 3rd edition ALL Blood Angels had Furious Charge/Rage, yet only the DC had the "Red Thirst"... ALL Blood Angels could assault out of fast moving rhinos because it was a defining characteristic for them; buff BA scouts were also a very "fluffy" thing. But obviously, see every codex in 40k, things change.

From my knowledge of the Blood Angels, all of them had the Red Thirst. I agree that they should have brought that stuff back instead of making it a random roll. And just because things change don't make them right.

For those of you too caught up in the discussion on which fluff is canon;

"This comes from a very solid source that has helped us verify rumors in the past
via an anonymous and solid source on Faeit 212
World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

Tau have two more books; one for kroot and one for "the rest" of the expanded empire.


The above rumor was mostly a sources a response to the rumors posted that there would be no mono-god legions, and that Tau would be receiving more than just a mercenaries supplement."

Nicked it from Faeit212
http://natfka.blogspot.se/2013/07/faeits-rumor-tarot-breaking-rumor-cult.html?m=1

That made my day. Bring on my 2+, 5++, FnP plagueterminators with Blight grenades!

Yeah, I know, doesn't sound too OP, but heck, thats got me jumping like a little schoolgirl!

//Calle

Personally, I love the new book. It would be easier for me to point out flaws than what I love.

Disclamer: I am not a veteran in any sense of the word when it comes to Chaos. I've only played 1 game with the new codex, and that was with Thousand Sons against Heavy Weapon spamBlack Templars. I was slaughtered.

When it comes to the new Codex, I love the new units, and would only change one thing: give the Helldrake a tail. This new hatred of the "Dinobots" is hard to understand from my point of view. If anything the new models harken back to the days when Dreadnoughts looked like a Weaponized Squash. Cultists were a gigantic gain for the new book: they are one of the most flavourful, and in some cases the fluffiest, units in all of Codex Chaos Space Marines.

The argument made for he book being boring are easy to understand in some ways. Playing a mono-God or Mono-Legion list is rather one-dimensional, but that can be inferred from the title of the list. It's "Mono" for a reason.

Truly to love the Chaos codex, it will help to love chaos itself, and having a loose regard for the established background helps. I have always viewed the Chaos legions and warbands as having to work together to achieve things, and putting up with their differences until the enemy is dead. I usually explain the few times I want to field Berzerkers or Plague Marines in my Thousand Sons force is that they both benefit in some way.

To be honest, the Fluff will never join with the game completely. There is always a gap between the books and the tabletop. Just compare the Guard in the novels to the tabletop: In a good 80% of books with Guard fighting Marines, their Lasguns can't touch a Marine, and Marines can peel apart Leman Russ tanks with their Combat knives....

There is no way GW could represent this on thr Table without the Guard being effectively deleted from 40k. The reality is that Guardsmen can penetrate Marine armor with Lasguns. Otherwise the guard are no good.

Look at the God restrictions the same way; Chaos is bland in mono-god form, so at times it is better for the gamer to ignore the enmity between gods for their ownpleasure.

One last thought: There IS one rule that I would cram into the CSM codex, and that's the SW rule on 1 HQ unit taking 1/2 the slot. I would love to field 4 500pt armies that represent all 4 Chaos Gods equally. I seriously would.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).

Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!

the night lords dont even worship chaos. They simply hate the imperium. Some of the marines have since been corupted and started worshiping chaos, many or mono god but the legion itself does not. Their geneseed is not corrupted. They are the only true men in 40k, doing what they want when they want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).

Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers think little of less unified legions with differing outlooks. The Word Bearers have even openly insulted Abaddon and the Black Legion.

And I just said the undivided legions are all easy to make lists for and cover all bases, the cult legions? Not so much.

yes, the word bearers also only worship chaos undivided as the source of absolute truth. They shun those who worship any one god as mindless slaves

I agree so much, I hope that someday I can take scarab occult with ap 3 combi-bolters, oh how splendid the destruction I would reap. I coudl wishlist for hours about my wishes for the supplements, I just hope above all that they bring back some of my beloved lost and damned units. Tzaangor and thrall wizards are all I've ever wanted, oh please gw, make my tzeentch army fun again

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.

20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.

Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)

40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444

Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.

Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..

You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.

also zerkers have 2 attacks base, 3 attacks with pistols, and 4 attacks with counter charge.
so 20 zerkers is usually 80 attacks, if they all get into base.

If they get the charge somehow with their reroll or if the wraiths fail, they get 100 attacks at strength 5.

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.

20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.

Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)

40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444

Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.

Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..

You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.

also zerkers have 2 attacks base, 3 attacks with pistols, and 4 attacks with counter charge.
so 20 zerkers is usually 80 attacks, if they all get into base.

If they get the charge somehow with their reroll or if the wraiths fail, they get 100 attacks at strength 5.

Zerkers are 1 attack base, 2 attacks with CCW/Pistol, 3 attacks with Counter, 4 attacks with rage.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.

20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.

Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)

40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444

Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.

Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..

You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.

also zerkers have 2 attacks base, 3 attacks with pistols, and 4 attacks with counter charge.
so 20 zerkers is usually 80 attacks, if they all get into base.

If they get the charge somehow with their reroll or if the wraiths fail, they get 100 attacks at strength 5.

Zerkers are 1 attack base, 2 attacks with CCW/Pistol, 3 attacks with Counter, 4 attacks with rage.

so they do

One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.

They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.

Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.

The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.

MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.

 LeadLegion wrote:

CSM and IG works well for Alpha Legion (old style fluff) or Word Bearers.

CSM and Death Korps of Kreig works well for Iron Warriors

Blood Angels worrks well for Night Lords

Necrons work well for Dark Mekanicus

Grey Knights work extremely well for Thousand Sons.

Once again, I find myself agreeing 100% with Aliaros when it comes to CSM. Which is odd given how often we've disagreed in the past concerning the IG.

 akaean wrote:
One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.

They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.

Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.

The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.

MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.

And even then, the Warbands still would have Mono Terminators, Marked Vehicles, the Dark Mechanicus bringing forth new daemon weapons.

It's just weird when we can't even use the Hades Autocannon or Baleflamer with any of the older vehicles...

 Exergy wrote:

Except the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Nighlords, and Word Bearers still have considerably structures in place to fight as a legion or as similar chapter like entities. It is only the marked cult legions and black legion that have been completely shattered into warbands.

Fair enough. But even so 90% of the complaints I hear about the Chaos codex is that there aren't enough "cult units"- like Emporer's Children Sonic Terminators for example. All of the other legions to a large extent are going to be using generic Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, and Terminators which are most certainly available.

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of missed oppotunities, but the direction Games Workshop has been choosing to move in for over 10 years has been a focus on individual Champions of Chaos and their associated accumulated Warband- which the codex does an acceptable, but not great, job of representing. Its not Ideal that Huron is necessary to guarentee infiltrators, or that Heldrakes are so overcentralizing on the competitive scene, or that Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles have such limited options compared to Lords and Sorcerers (There is no reason a Dark Apostle shouldn't be able to take a mount for instance). But to a large extent things are workable.

 akaean wrote:
One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.

They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.

Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.

The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.

MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.

Players "want" legion specific stuff because Chaos Marines have always been about the legions, not about warbands. Every Special Character is defined by their Legion, not which warband they are currently working with. Sure, somewhere I'm sure people play warband armies, but I can speak for my area, where our Chaos players include a Thousand Sons player (me), a Death Guard player, an Emperor's Children player, a Word Bearers player, and a new Iron Warriors player. Chaos players identify with their Legions, just like Space Marines identify with their Chapters (why else would Forgeworld make such wonderful doors and dreadnoughts?).

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 akaean wrote:
One thing that I noticed, that a lot of people seem to miss is that Chaos is no longer organized into legions.

They were organized into legions, and there is a lot of great history relating to those legions and the history thereof, and there are even remenants of those legions in the current book. BUT, Games Workshop has made it very clear is that 40K is not 30K. Space Marines have been broken into Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines into Warbands.

Look at it this way. fluffwise, Chaos in 40K are focused on warlords- be they Chaos Lords or Sorcerers or occassionally some of those other things. A World Eater Chaos Lord may have a large contingent of Berzerkers, but other segements of chaos may still flock to his growing power and influence- like an Obliterator Cult, or some renegade troopers. This is emphasized within the codex itself, talking about how Oblits will align with a Chaos Lord to help find more equipment. I feel like its almost analogous to Orc(k)s, where different groups are drawn and binded together by powerful leaders before going to war.

The issue is that people *want* legion specific stuff, and they get really upset the more games workshop moves Chaos moves away from dedicated legion forces.

MY only real issue with the Chaos Dex is that the Chaos Boon table is a pain in the ass, because contrary to popular belief it is not super funny when your expensive Chaos Lord that you lovingly converted and gave bad ass gear to turns himself into a spawn after tearing apart a worthless unit champion.

Players "want" legion specific stuff because Chaos Marines have always been about the legions, not about warbands. Every Special Character is defined by their Legion, not which warband they are currently working with. Sure, somewhere I'm sure people play warband armies, but I can speak for my area, where our Chaos players include a Thousand Sons player (me), a Death Guard player, an Emperor's Children player, a Word Bearers player, and a new Iron Warriors player. Chaos players identify with their Legions, just like Space Marines identify with their Chapters (why else would Forgeworld make such wonderful doors and dreadnoughts?).

Not to mention that even then, it's been known that they sometimes get together under special circumstances. Angron went out, gathered up a ton of World Eaters and basically ripped a nice shiny hole through the Imperium.

As well as the fact those SC's are often with other members of their legion, Kharn doesn't suddenly hang out with Tzeentch warriors, but mostly other Marked Khornates and bezerkers.

Here's hoping the chaos supplements rumor is true and that they come soon, because the CSM book is aging badly, with terrifying speed.

And yes, it was a wasted chance. It would actually have been pretty simple to put in place a system for cult ANYTHING just by splitting the marks.

Mark of Khorne: Rage+Counterattack.
GREATER Mark of Khorne: Furious charge, Rage+Counterattack.

Mark of Slaanesh: +1 Ini.
GREATER Mark of Slaanesh: +1 Ini., Fleet

Mark of Nurgle: +1T
GREATER Mark of Nurgle: +1T, FNP

Mark of Tzeentch: +1 inv save
GREATER Mark of Tzeentch: +1 inv save, access to inferno bolts.

It's as simple as that: four extra lines of text. Want to have a Nurgle guy? Get the basic mark. Want a _plague marine_? Get the meaner, more expensive version. On basic marines, bikes, terminators, havocs, you name it. Link some of the more esoteric gear to each mark and you can expand on that almost infinitely and without much hassle.

As for the "Well, chaos are no longer legions", that's not a factor. Two separate World Eater warbands are still far more similar in rules, gear and style than a WE warband and a Night Lord warband.

Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.

So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.

So what am I missing?

Davor wrote:
Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.

So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.

So what am I missing?

Because apparently they have to have an entire legion/chapter before they can use the better marked stuff. Because it's a warband it can't despite fielding so little.


Yes the logic is stupid behind most of that.

Davor wrote:
Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.

So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.

So what am I missing?

My apologies but this isn't a good logic. If you can accept a snowball, then I'd have to ask why Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templar, and DA need a real codex? They can simply use the loyalist codex. Along with that, I could argue why does the Marine codex have a way to play Salamanders and the sorts. Yet why do they need that when you will only be able to field (usually) at most 1/10th of a standard sized chapter. now then, snowballing done, it is because people like playing the legions they have grown to adore.

Sure I can play my Salamanders by bringing devestators melta heavy and giving all of my troops flamers. But it doesn't feel like I am playing Salamanders until I have those special rules that fit them perfectly. Sure I can play Blood Angels with my SM codex but then I give up things like black rage and the sorts that are intrinsic to the chapter. Now let us make it similar to the Chaos Space Marine codex. Grab them and slide them into the SM codex giving them a single hq that changes nothing besides making Jump troops. Then you only get the death company. The rest of your army doesn't even feel slightly like the blood angels besides two models in the entire army. The rest is simply Ultramarines fighting alongside Blood Angels.

We identify with legions and even if they have become warbands for the most part they still tend to keep to the style of the legion. A Iron Warrior will still likely favour siege weaponry and care not for chaos whilst a a NL former legion will still want to go scare tactics no matter what.

Davor wrote:
Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.

So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.

So what am I missing?

You're right. You are ignorant.
You don't play chaos, do you?
We've always played legions. There are stories and history to the legions that appeal to us. Just because we're only playing a small part of that legion doesn't negate that.

Davor wrote:
Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.

So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.

So what am I missing?

I think you're misunderstanding what we mean when we refer to legions. We don't want to field an entire legion, we want to field a force that consists entirely of members of one legion. Just like when you play Ultramarines, you don't field the entire Ultramarines chapter, but you do field a force of entirely Ultramarines, and don't include any Salamanders, or White Scars, or others. We feel the Chaos codex doesn't allow us to field forces that represent the members of our legion. The prevailing attitude at GW seems to be that the legions have been broken up and that we should field warbands consisting of members of multiple legions, worshipping multiple chaos gods. Those of us who wish to play forces of just one legion don't appreciate this attitude, and feel that the Chaos codex should offer more options for representing the members of our legion outside of one troops unit (be they Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, or Death Guard Plague Marines, etc).

I have a sizeable CSM force (some new, some old) and have had them since the fabled 3.5 dex.

I completely agree that the current dex if pretty lifeless. I have, since the dexes arrival, begun Orks and SM armies.

I didn't actually play back in the day so i cannot comment on 3.5's competitiveness but it sure looked like fun. I especially like the idea of upgrading your lord with deamon gifts until he takes enough to make him a DP. To me that makes it very fluffy. Your first couple of games you play with a Lord... every time he does well you "gift" him. It also had some cool non-SM upgrades (Kai gun, spikey bits etc...).


What makes it less tactically fun:

* Random powers (CSM were the first of the new "cinematic" codexes) on elite units really hurt their chance for you to play a tactical game with the units affected.

* Low troop mobility. With no access to Drop Pods, the flimsy Rhinos and no Deep Striking Troops. This means getting your Power Armour troops across the board is extremely tough and you opponent knows this. You basically have to bum rush your opponent. This is when all other armies have gotten way more mobile than when Rhinos were relevant. Eldar Shoot & Run makes it so much more obvious. Objective games means Chaos have to camp and hope to god they can get that midfield Objective.

* Must challenge. Nice and fluffy but can get in the way.

* New dino vehicles. In a edition of FMC/MC they are so meh in comparison to the other new toys on the table.

* HellDrake effect. I am one of the few people that thinks this unit sucks. I does very little for me but people can't stop banging on about its effectiveness an how OP they are. They die quite hard with rear 10. Give me a Riptide or Wratihknight instead any day of the week as a distracto unit.

I do not want an OP codex. I just want something with tactics, flair and fluff.

 somerandomidiot wrote:

Davor wrote:
Legion this, Legion that. You can still only field 100 minis or less anyways in a normal 40K game. It's not like you are actually fielding an entire Legion in the game.

So in my ignorance, please explain so I can understand, why people are upset. Even if you had Legion rules you will still be fielding 100 minis or less, so it's basically a squad anyways you are fielding.

So what am I missing?

I think you're misunderstanding what we mean when we refer to legions. We don't want to field an entire legion, we want to field a force that consists entirely of members of one legion. Just like when you play Ultramarines, you don't field the entire Ultramarines chapter, but you do field a force of entirely Ultramarines, and don't include any Salamanders, or White Scars, or others. We feel the Chaos codex doesn't allow us to field forces that represent the members of our legion. The prevailing attitude at GW seems to be that the legions have been broken up and that we should field warbands consisting of members of multiple legions, worshipping multiple chaos gods. Those of us who wish to play forces of just one legion don't appreciate this attitude, and feel that the Chaos codex should offer more options for representing the members of our legion outside of one troops unit (be they Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, or Death Guard Plague Marines, etc).

Thank you I understand where you are coming from now.

I do sigh every time someone says "Oh, just take this other cult unit. Or give your obliterators the mark of nurgle"

I play Slaanesh. Those are NOT options.

Then they tell me to quit complaining because I'm choosing to hamstring myself. Point is good options used to exist for ALL legions, and there were ways to make things that weren't fluffy INTO fluffy units.

Old emperor's children couldn't take obliterators because they weren't slaanesh marked. Who cared? I could have a Warp Amp predator with Doomsiren sponsons and blastmaster havocs. Characterful heavy support was there!

That being said, I've had success with the current codex. Maulerfiends with Spawn support, chaos lords with cultist shields (though having to take a powerfist with the mark of slaanesh is just sinful), and honestly even helbrutes are fine if you're taking 3 of them.

 akaean wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Except the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Nighlords, and Word Bearers still have considerably structures in place to fight as a legion or as similar chapter like entities. It is only the marked cult legions and black legion that have been completely shattered into warbands.

Fair enough. But even so 90% of the complaints I hear about the Chaos codex is that there aren't enough "cult units"- like Emporer's Children Sonic Terminators for example. All of the other legions to a large extent are going to be using generic Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, and Terminators which are most certainly available.

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of missed oppotunities, but the direction Games Workshop has been choosing to move in for over 10 years has been a focus on individual Champions of Chaos and their associated accumulated Warband- which the codex does an acceptable, but not great, job of representing. Its not Ideal that Huron is necessary to guarentee infiltrators, or that Heldrakes are so overcentralizing on the competitive scene, or that Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles have such limited options compared to Lords and Sorcerers (There is no reason a Dark Apostle shouldn't be able to take a mount for instance). But to a large extent things are workable.

it's true. Half of CSM players want more cult units and half want more undivided units. it is really a case of there should be 2 books. Or 2 supliments that enhance fully marked armies or fully undivided armies.

It is a problem when they put over 9 faction in to one book. If loyalist marine players had to use only the sm codex , they would react the same .

 Jag_Calle wrote:

Nicked it from Faeit212
http://natfka.blogspot.se/2013/07/faeits-rumor-tarot-breaking-rumor-cult.html?m=1

That made my day. Bring on my 2+, 5++, FnP plagueterminators with Blight grenades!

Yeah, I know, doesn't sound too OP, but heck, thats got me jumping like a little schoolgirl!
//Calle

So.... Paladins with an apothecary +nades. Those better be damned expensive.