We've been having this discussion in several threads in the same time, so I would like to focus it in one thread.
A Veteran can take different weapons, like a grav-gun.
A Veteran can upgrade to an Apothecary, taking a Narthecium.
To me this means I can give the Veteran a Grav-gun, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.
I disagree. Wargear is restricted by model type and you can't just get around that by upgrading the wargear before changing the model's type.
GW is very careful with wording their squad upgrades, there's a reason why some options start with "so-and-so may take..." and some start with "any model may take..." and given that both versions can appear under the same unit, we can be sure the distinction is intentional.
The Ork FAQ says Painboys can't get Nob upgrades and their situation is pretty much identical.
Jimsolo wrote: Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.
No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.
Jimsolo wrote: Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.
No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.
You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.
No because the pain boy situation he must give up weapons to acquire new weapons that give the pain boy his abilities. Thus you have one of two situations the painboy can't upgrade to new weapons because he had to exchange them already or you can't upgrade a nob with a PK to a pain boy because a requirement of that is to give up your slugga and choppa which he already got rid of.
Jimsolo wrote: Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.
No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.
Given the situations that others have already pointed out (sparing me the necessity of digging out the ork codex, so thanks everybody! ) it seems clear that the limitations on the Painboy are specific caveats, not a blanket restriction on sequential upgrades in general.
Does the way they handled the bike situation give some guidance on this. They added that bikers may replace their bolt pistol with a chainsword, the obvious implication being that once you replace the chainsword you can then take special weapons.
If upgrades all happened concurrently, then you wouldn't be able to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, since you'd have to do two replacements at the same time. As such, they clearly happen consecutively.
If that's the case, then I would think you'd be able to do the same thing concerning special weapons, and sequentially take a special weapon, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.
In fact, it should be possible to get a Company Champion with a special weapon. 1. Replace bolt pistol with boltgun*. 2. replace boltgun with special weapon. 3. upgrade to company champion by replacing chainsword.
Using that order, you should be able to get a company champion with a special weapon.
*I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now
Firstly, veterans in the command squad can't take special weapons anymore...
Its very clearly worded. One veteran can be upgraded to an apothecary, taking a med kit. He is then an apothecary. Apothecaries have no other options in the unit (beyond bikes).
rossatdi wrote: Firstly, veterans in the command squad can't take special weapons anymore...
Its very clearly worded. One veteran can be upgraded to an apothecary, taking a med kit. He is then an apothecary. Apothecaries have no other options in the unit (beyond bikes).
DogofWar1 wrote: Does the way they handled the bike situation give some guidance on this. They added that bikers may replace their bolt pistol with a chainsword, the obvious implication being that once you replace the chainsword you can then take special weapons.
If upgrades all happened concurrently, then you wouldn't be able to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, since you'd have to do two replacements at the same time. As such, they clearly happen consecutively.
If that's the case, then I would think you'd be able to do the same thing concerning special weapons, and sequentially take a special weapon, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.
In fact, it should be possible to get a Company Champion with a special weapon. 1. Replace bolt pistol with boltgun*. 2. replace boltgun with special weapon. 3. upgrade to company champion by replacing chainsword.
Using that order, you should be able to get a company champion with a special weapon.
*I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now
I concur. (With everything except the part about bolt pistols being melee weapons for upgrade purposes. )
DogofWar1 wrote: Does the way they handled the bike situation give some guidance on this. They added that bikers may replace their bolt pistol with a chainsword, the obvious implication being that once you replace the chainsword you can then take special weapons. If upgrades all happened concurrently, then you wouldn't be able to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, since you'd have to do two replacements at the same time. As such, they clearly happen consecutively. If that's the case, then I would think you'd be able to do the same thing concerning special weapons, and sequentially take a special weapon, then upgrade him to an Apothecary. In fact, it should be possible to get a Company Champion with a special weapon. 1. Replace bolt pistol with boltgun*. 2. replace boltgun with special weapon. 3. upgrade to company champion by replacing chainsword. Using that order, you should be able to get a company champion with a special weapon.
That's exactly what I thought! The FAQ is a clear message that you may first take upgrade A, then B.
I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now
You do know that this allows for Tactical Marines with Special Weapon ánd Boltgun?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.
Not at all the same situation.
Boys squads comprise of Boys and a Nob.
The Big Shoota is an upgrade for any Ork in the mob. It's not restricted to just boys.
You're talking about taking an upgrade for a veteran on a model that isn't a veteran.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.
Not at all the same situation.
Boys squads comprise of Boys and a Nob.
The Big Shoota is an upgrade for any Ork in the mob. It's not restricted to just boys.
You're talking about taking an upgrade for a veteran on a model that isn't a veteran.
I think the argument is that it IS a Veteran before you make it an apothecary.
grendel083 wrote: Not at all the same situation. Boys squads comprise of Boys and a Nob. The Big Shoota is an upgrade for any Ork in the mob. It's not restricted to just boys. You're talking about taking an upgrade for a veteran on a model that isn't a veteran.
He's a Veteran the moment I give it to him And can we leave Orks out of this? They are deliberately badly written because it 'sounds funny'.
I hope they don't do this with the next one.
Jimsolo wrote: Me? I was ignoring the entire thread? What did I do?
I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now
You do know that this allows for Tactical Marines with Special Weapon ánd Boltgun?
Perhaps, but the alternative is that Tactical Marines get a free ccw based on the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51. If a bolt pistol is merely a melee multiplier, and not a melee weapon, then tactical marines would, as per that rule, be considered not to have a weapon of the melee type in their wargear, and therefore be treated as being armed with a ccw, which when combined with the bolt pistol means they have 2 melee weapons.
So, based on that rule, either bolt pistols have to be melee weapons so that tactical squads don't get a free one, or marines suddenly turned into grey hunters. The latter is obviously not the intention of GW (well...maybe Ward, but probably not others), so I have to conclude that bolt pistols are melee weapons.
This was debated at length in the C:SM 6th FAQ Answers (Discussion) thread as well. The FAQ basically pulled a Supreme Court, and made a ruling in the most narrow way possible while leaving other issues in the air.
REGARDLESS, GRAV GUNS FOR EVERYONE! (planet collapses from overlapping gravity fields)
rossatdi wrote: Firstly, veterans in the command squad can't take special weapons anymore...
Its very clearly worded. One veteran can be upgraded to an apothecary, taking a med kit. He is then an apothecary. Apothecaries have no other options in the unit (beyond bikes).
However, the Apothecary still isn't a veteran, so he still can't take special weapons!
You can't 'trick' the swap out order so you give him a special weapon then upgrade him. You have to treat all options at the same time. I play bikes myself and wouldn't pull this. If I was feeling strongly about it a tournament, my case to the judge would be simple: "Is it a Veteran? No. Then he doesn't have access to Veteran upgrades."
I don't think so, because the Ravenwing Command Squad needs to replace their bolt pistol for the Narthecium.
And they cannot take special weapons so why discuss it?
Jimsolo wrote: Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.
No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.
You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.
The big shoota can be given to any ork in the unit. You can give it to the Nob before or after upgrading him because he's still an ork. Different situation.
Madcat87 wrote: No because the pain boy situation he must give up weapons to acquire new weapons that give the pain boy his abilities. Thus you have one of two situations the painboy can't upgrade to new weapons because he had to exchange them already or you can't upgrade a nob with a PK to a pain boy because a requirement of that is to give up your slugga and choppa which he already got rid of.
I wasn't talking about his weapons, although you could waste points by giving a nob new weapons then paying to upgrade him to a painboy that will not have docs tools nor urty syringe.
I was talking about giving a nob eavy armour then upgrading him to a painboy, keeping the armour. The painboy cannot purchase the armour but the nob he was could. And this is supported elsewhere in the FAQ.
However, the Apothecary still isn't a veteran, so he still can't take special weapons!
You can't 'trick' the swap out order so you give him a special weapon then upgrade him. You have to treat all options at the same time. I play bikes myself and wouldn't pull this. If I was feeling strongly about it a tournament, my case to the judge would be simple: "Is it a Veteran? No. Then he doesn't have access to Veteran upgrades."
2 Points go against you here. First, if you have to treat all upgrades at the same time, then regular SM Bike Squads (with the new FAQ) still can't take special weapons, because in order to take them you have to swap out your bolt pistol for a chainsword and then swap the chainsword for a special weapon.
Second, even if you require that all upgrades happen simultaneously, then the Apothecary can take a special weapon. You have a single Veteran model in the squad, you choose 2 of his upgrade options (Take a special weapon and upgrade to Apothecary). When you are choosing to do that, he IS a Veteran, so both are valid options for him to take. Now, you apply those upgrades simultaneously, so he takes his special weapon and picks up his Narthecium, becoming an Apothecary. He now has both. There's nothing in the rules that say he magically loses his special weapon when he upgrades to the Apothecary, so you can't just take it away because you don't like it.
Kommissar Kel wrote: I was talking about giving a nob eavy armour then upgrading him to a painboy, keeping the armour. The painboy cannot purchase the armour but the nob he was could. And this is supported elsewhere in the FAQ.
Why exactly would they bother to explicitly say that Painboyz can't buy wargear if they intended to allow this workaround? You can't support your creative reading by misapplying some other FAQ answer that directly contradicts the answer actually dealing with the issue at hand.
It's the same discussion as Shadowseers and Harlequin's Kiss. Of course, a Shadowseer could explicitly take a kiss in 4th codex.
So now we have two old codices that were different written out the same way for the new codex. Which means (barring an Errata) that following the old rules is wrong in at least one case.
TehCheator wrote: 2 Points go against you here. First, if you have to treat all upgrades at the same time, then regular SM Bike Squads (with the new FAQ) still can't take special weapons, because in order to take them you have to swap out your bolt pistol for a chainsword and then swap the chainsword for a special weapon.
Second, even if you require that all upgrades happen simultaneously, then the Apothecary can take a special weapon. You have a single Veteran model in the squad, you choose 2 of his upgrade options (Take a special weapon and upgrade to Apothecary). When you are choosing to do that, he IS a Veteran, so both are valid options for him to take. Now, you apply those upgrades simultaneously, so he takes his special weapon and picks up his Narthecium, becoming an Apothecary. He now has both. There's nothing in the rules that say he magically loses his special weapon when he upgrades to the Apothecary, so you can't just take it away because you don't like it.
It's not an issue of timing at all. The end result of your interpretation is an illegal game state: a model type with wargear that cannot be accessed by that model type. The design principle here is clear, and has been consistent for at least the 15 years since I've been playing. A model can't take wargear unless it's allowed for models with its exact name. Just opening any older Codex that doesn't have squad leaders automatically included in units will make this obvious. By your interpretation, pretty much any non-Imperial faction could give special/heavy weapons to their squad leaders.
You "upgrade" a veteran to an Apothecary "taking a narthecium .
As shown with the emperor's champion they refer to the standard items that get replaced.
Only the standard gear are "assumed" when the upgrade is done.
Then the Apothecary is not eligible as a "veteran" to choose from the ranged weapons list (same as the champion).
If you notice when they write these rules they have a logical flow of progression from one line to the next.
Anyway, if this is just to get a grav-gun on the guy, they are better spent on anything with "relentless".
lord_blackfang wrote: It's not an issue of timing at all. The end result of your interpretation is an illegal game state: a model type with wargear that cannot be accessed by that model type.
You're begging the question. You are claiming that the model is not allowed to have the piece of wargear because he isn't allowed to have it. Admittedly, the rules are poorly written, but there is absolutely nothing in the rules that supports the idea that such a "game state" is "illegal". The Codex explicitly gives you permission to perform the upgrades, and whether you consider them simultaneous or sequential, you are legally following the Codex to obtain the model. Nowhere are you breaking any written rules, or doing something that you are not given explicit permission to do, so how is it "illegal"?
DogofWar1 wrote:Perhaps, but the alternative is that Tactical Marines get a free ccw based on the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51. If a bolt pistol is merely a melee multiplier, and not a melee weapon, then tactical marines would, as per that rule, be considered not to have a weapon of the melee type in their wargear, and therefore be treated as being armed with a ccw, which when combined with the bolt pistol means they have 2 melee weapons.
This definitely won't work! If they have a pistol (which has the melee rule) then you have a melee weapon.
Therefore there is no way to claim the non-specified CCW.
Kommissar Kel wrote:I was talking about giving a nob eavy armour then upgrading him to a painboy, keeping the armour. The painboy cannot purchase the armour but the nob he was could. And this is supported elsewhere in the FAQ.
You mean support from his FAQ?
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
Talizvar wrote: You "upgrade" a veteran to an Apothecary "taking a narthecium . As shown with the emperor's champion they refer to the standard items that get replaced. Only the standard gear are "assumed" when the upgrade is done. Then the Apothecary is not eligible as a "veteran" to choose from the ranged weapons list (same as the champion). If you notice when they write these rules they have a logical flow of progression from one line to the next. Anyway, if this is just to get a grav-gun on the guy, they are better spent on anything with "relentless".
1. Don't you mean Company Champion? 2. It's not the same as the Champion since he has to trade in his Chainsword. 3. Relentless, like an Apothecary on a bike? 4. FAQ says they can replace the pistol with a Chainsword, where should we place that line? Logic says it's at the bottom, but if we "have to use a flow from one line to the next" that would mean none can take special weapons.
Talizvar wrote: Yep, only way they should ever use them, but not with an Apothecary OR Emp. Champ. they have other tasks...
Five Grav-guns with T5, 3+, 5+ cover and FnP is how I want to use them.
DogofWar1 wrote:Perhaps, but the alternative is that Tactical Marines get a free ccw based on the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51. If a bolt pistol is merely a melee multiplier, and not a melee weapon, then tactical marines would, as per that rule, be considered not to have a weapon of the melee type in their wargear, and therefore be treated as being armed with a ccw, which when combined with the bolt pistol means they have 2 melee weapons.
This definitely won't work! If they have a pistol (which has the melee rule) then you have a melee weapon. Therefore there is no way to claim the non-specified CCW.
This was exactly my point, the bolt pistol is a melee weapon and can therefore be replaced for a special weapon. If something has the melee rule, it has range " - ". If something has range " - " it is a melee weapon (page 50). The reasonable logical conclusion is that it is both a melee and ranged weapon which keeps from invoking the no specified melee weapon rule for tactical marines (among others).
They've created sufficient workarounds where you don't NEED to replace the bolt pistol, but the logical progression still stands such that you CAN.
False. If it were legal for this codex, then why wasn't it legal for the previous codex?
And as has been pointed out already, the Nob can take the big shoota after becoming a Nob because he's still an ork.
Didn't you have to swap out wargear for the apothecary in the previous codex? I'm not sure, but I seem to remember them saying you replace stuff with a narthecium, which meant you had to have that wargear in the first place and not have replaced it, and obviously couldn't replace it afterwards since you no longer had it. Here, you don't do any replacing, you just add, so you don't eliminate any prerequisites for becoming an apothecary prior to the upgrade by swapping for a special weapon.
Ghaz wrote: False. If it were legal for this codex, then why wasn't it legal for the previous codex?
It wasn't legal for the previous codex because in the previous one the Apothecary was automatically in the squad, it wasn't a Veteran upgrade. In this version both the Apothecary AND the special weapons are upgrades for a veteran, so you can take both.
False. If it were legal for this codex, then why wasn't it legal for the previous codex?
In the previous codex, the apothecary wasn't a veteran, he was an apothecary. There was no option to give him anything, as he had no listed upgrades, nor was he an upgrade for the unit. As such the apothecary wasn't allowed anything more than standard wargear.
False. If it were legal for this codex, then why wasn't it legal for the previous codex?
And as has been pointed out already, the Nob can take the big shoota after becoming a Nob because he's still an ork.
Didn't you have to swap out wargear for the apothecary in the previous codex? I'm not sure, but I seem to remember them saying you replace stuff with a narthecium, which meant you had to have that wargear in the first place and not have replaced it, and obviously couldn't replace it afterwards since you no longer had it. Here, you don't do any replacing, you just add, so you don't eliminate any prerequisites for becoming an apothecary prior to the upgrade by swapping for a special weapon.
In that case, Dark Eldar can have "sergeants" running around with Dark Lances, the situation is identical. Not to mention the other 15 years of precedent, including the 2002 CSM Codex.
Since I've never seen anyone try to pull that off, I'm going to assume this is some sort of Marine entitlement issue.
When I asked this question some months ago about Nob Bikerz, I was told that it worked one way. Now, the exact same issue comes up with apothecaries, and there seems to be some contention, with some people saying that it works the exact opposite way.
When I asked this question some months ago about Nob Bikerz, I was told that it worked one way. Now, the exact same issue comes up with apothecaries, and there seems to be some contention, with some people saying that it works the exact opposite way.
Ah, I see your frustration. The Ork codex is a real piece of work, with 3 different ways of how wargear and model upgrades interact (Kommandos, Nobs and Boyz). I'd chalk that up to Phil Kelly simply being a chump.
lord_blackfang wrote: In that case, Dark Eldar can have "sergeants" running around with Dark Lances, the situation is identical. Not to mention the other 15 years of precedent, including the 2002 CSM Codex.
Since I've never seen anyone try to pull that off, I'm going to assume this is some sort of Marine entitlement issue.
You've probably never seen it because you can still only have one Dark Lance, and putting all of your points on a single model is a bad idea. Plus there's no benefit to doing it, so what would be the point?
That still doesn't disprove the rules as they are written. You keep saying "But it never worked like this before!" Without actually making an argument for why it doesn't work like that now.
lord_blackfang wrote: In that case, Dark Eldar can have "sergeants" running around with Dark Lances, the situation is identical. Not to mention the other 15 years of precedent, including the 2002 CSM Codex.
Since I've never seen anyone try to pull that off, I'm going to assume this is some sort of Marine entitlement issue.
You've probably never seen it because you can still only have one Dark Lance, and putting all of your points on a single model is a bad idea. Plus there's no benefit to doing it, so what would be the point?
So you can have the last model to die be both the heavy weapon guy and the high Leadership guy?
That still doesn't disprove the rules as they are written. You keep saying "But it never worked like this before!" Without actually making an argument for why it doesn't work like that now.
Because it didn't before? The interpretation of the wording doesn't suddenly reverse just because it got printed in a Space Marine book.
When I asked this question some months ago about Nob Bikerz, I was told that it worked one way. Now, the exact same issue comes up with apothecaries, and there seems to be some contention, with some people saying that it works the exact opposite way.
It is because a Nob biker is still a Nob, notice how there's no separate profile for a Nob biker. This is not the case with the Apotechary.
lord_blackfang wrote: Because it didn't before? The interpretation of the wording doesn't suddenly reverse just because it got printed in a Space Marine book.
What wording are you referring to? If you're talking about the Dark Eldar you just mentioned, then I would say it absolutely did work that way before, and still does. Just because nobody did it doesn't mean it wasn't possible, it just didn't have enough benefits for people to say "Hey why don't I do that?"
The codexes in question very clearly give you the option of several different upgrades, that you can take any or all of, so there's no reason to artificially assume that you can do some combinations but not others, without other rules prohibiting it. There are no rules in the game or any of the codexes that say "You have to perform character upgrades first" or "You can't combine character upgrades with other upgrades."
Yeah, they're so careful that they had to do a day 2 FAQ just to make sure ANYONE in a command squad could take a special weapon, and to avoid a massive debate about whether bikers can take special weapons.
GW makes mistakes or leaves things ambiguous all the time. That's why going purely RAW tends to be a bad idea, because pure RAW has all sorts of nit-picky problems. RAI, when RAI is obvious and consistent with one interpretation of RAW, is better to follow. The problem with RAI here, at least based on RAI of previous codices, is that it appears to stand in opposition to RAW.
The thing is, we don't know if GW's RAI changed between editions. For me personally, where RAI and RAW stand in opposition, I tend to opt towards the more liberal, permissive approach. Telling someone they CANNOT do something, when that something is ambiguous, is not something I like doing.
It's worth noting that I don't really have a horse in this race. While I play SM, I don't really plan on taking a command squad at any point. I tend to opt towards MSU, and with the proliferation of AP3 or gbetter weapons I'd rather my bikers be cheaper. A command squad on a bike is 135 points. For that same price I can get 5 bikes that are scoring with 2 special weapons built in. They have fewer attacks, but to match with special weapons I have to pay 165 on the command squad, and I'd be daft to not take an apothecary, which increases it further. Basically, I just feel it's more cost than I feel comfy paying, I prefer to shove as much as possible in there.
Kommissar Kel wrote: I was talking about giving a nob eavy armour then upgrading him to a painboy, keeping the armour. The painboy cannot purchase the armour but the nob he was could. And this is supported elsewhere in the FAQ.
Why exactly would they bother to explicitly say that Painboyz can't buy wargear if they intended to allow this workaround? You can't support your creative reading by misapplying some other FAQ answer that directly contradicts the answer actually dealing with the issue at hand.
Because Painboys cannot buy that gear.
It doesn't say they cannot have the gear only that they cannot buy it.
The exact same "workaround" is required for nob bikers to purchace anything other than Stickbombs(including for one of them to be made a painboy before getting on a bike).
Sorry, but you don't get points for clever list building. It dosnt matter what order you take the upgrades in, if at the end a model has a piece of wargear he's not allowed to have then your list is illegal.
juraigamer wrote: Apothecary can now take special weapons, thank god I've been waiting for this day to re-create my deathwatch character.
It's all down to the order of operations
Veteran ---> upgrade with power fist ----> upgrade to apothecary ----> great success
Thankfully the apothecary entry doesn't say he replaces his wargear, so he's good.
Works the same way as giving a nob a big shoota
Ork boy ----> big shoota ----> upgrade to nob ----> great success
" Veteran ---> upgrade with power fist ----> upgrade to apothecary ----> great success "
This... So much this. The apothecary starts as a veteran able to purachas upgrades, the Apothicary upgrade does not require you to loose anything, and simply gives him a narthecium. He keeps that sweet grav gun.
Ghaz wrote: Sorry, but you don't get points for clever list building. It dosnt matter what order you take the upgrades in, if at the end a model has a piece of wargear he's not allowed to have then your list is illegal.
Show me a rule that says he isn't "Allowed" to have it and I'll believe you. The only rule I see is the one that lists which upgrades can be taken, so I follow those rules and take a set of upgrades (which just so happens to include the Apothecary upgrade, as well as others). There are no rules that say the Apothecary upgrade is somehow "different" from the others or that you can't take it in combination with the others.
The rules give explicit permission for a Veteran to take all of these different upgrades, with no restrictions on how many you can take. If you are arguing that he can't take the Apothecary one and one of the others at the same time, then you are basically saying that you can't take more than one upgrade on any character ever, which is obviously absurd.
wargamer1985 wrote: Since the apothecary has his own stat line he is not a veteran otherwise he would be called something like veteran apothercary not just apothercary
Then why the difference in wording between the apothecary and the champion? Where the champion specifically gives up and replaces pieces of wargear the apothecary does not.
Ghaz wrote: Sorry, but you don't get points for clever list building. It dosnt matter what order you take the upgrades in, if at the end a model has a piece of wargear he's not allowed to have then your list is illegal.
Except it never says an apothecary can't have upgrades if it already has them. Upgrade order is a thing, some units use it. Heck, some units have to use it to get certain upgrades. Bikes can use it for special weapons, CSM squads use it for icons, HQs take terminator armor and then swap stuff etc. etc.
The funny thing is, GW could have kept the whole "apothecary is built-in" and solved the issue, but they didn't. That makes me think there is some change in RAI. What that change is we don't quite know, but it may well be that they wanted to let apothecaries and company champions have somewhat varied wargear.
Or they could write it that you "Exchange one Veteran for an Apothecary", very easy fix.
Ghaz wrote: Sorry, but you don't get points for clever list building. It dosnt matter what order you take the upgrades in, if at the end a model has a piece of wargear he's not allowed to have then your list is illegal.
Do you have a source for that ruling?
And how about Bikers with Special weapons? They can: 1) Switch Pistol to Chainsword 2) Switch Chainsword to Special Weapon. End-result: They changed a Pistol to a Special Weapon, which would be illegal if you are right.
Ghaz wrote: Sorry, but you don't get points for clever list building. It dosnt matter what order you take the upgrades in, if at the end a model has a piece of wargear he's not allowed to have then your list is illegal.
So nob Bikers can only have slugga and choppa?
And what about the fact that the Ork FAQ specifically calls for "Clever List building"?
Also there has never been a declaration that the model is not allowed to have the items, just that the painboy is not allowed to purchase it(and in this case the painboy didn't purchase it).
Page 164: (paraphrased slightly but in order from the book)
One vet may take company standard or relic
One vet may be upgraded to a champ....
One vet maybe upgraded to an apothecary takin a narth
The entire squad may take bikes
Any veteran may take bombs/shield
Any veteran may replace
Any veteran may take items from
Thee are 3 stat lines in the command squad entry
Veteran
Company Champion
Apothecary
The upgrade changes the models.classification due to the fact it has its own stat line
So, again, a Veteran has several different wargear / upgrade options. He is allowed to take more than one of them. At list building, you choose to take "Swap Chainsword for Grav Gun" AND "Upgrade to Apothecary", both of which are completely valid options for a Veteran. The rules give you express permission to take those options. At what point did you break any rules or what rules are there that say that is invalid. The different profiles is irrelevant, because it is not an Apothecary upgrading his wargear (which was the case in the last book), it is a Veteran upgrading both his wargear and his profile (both of which are allowed by the options written in the codex).
Bikes are now given explicit permission to buy special weapons for 2 marines
And order.of upgrade refers to the listed order not buy this this this and then buy this
Actually by this logic the Bikes still aren't allowed to buy special weapons, because the Errata added "Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword......free" to the list (at the end of it), so that option would be after the option to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, meaning you couldn't do that. Which is obviously absurd.
Where does it state the apothecary is a veteran.... WHERE??? Since it has now been proven you cannot get your rules out to prove it and don't use another armies faq to back your argument as it is not valid for C:SM. If you cannot provide a rule that state a model called one thing can also count as another then please refrain from further providing false information
Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 84: Up to two space marine bikers may each take one item from the special weapons list
wargamer1985 wrote: Where does it state the apothecary is a veteran.... WHERE??? Since it has now been proven you cannot get your rules out to prove it and don't use another armies faq to back your argument as it is not valid for C:SM. If you cannot provide a rule that state a model called one thing can also count as another then please refrain from further providing false information
Where did anyone say that the Apothecary IS a Veteran? Are you trying to say that once he becomes one then he always was one? Because by that logic you can never have an Apothecary in the squad (The Unit Composition says "5 Veterans").
The Apothecary Upgrade and Special Weapon swaps are BOTH Options for Veterans. Neither is more important than the other, and there are no rules that state you can take one but not the other. The only rules you have are that Veterans can take any or all of their options as listed in the Codex.
Edit: If you read the Wargear section where the "Special Weapons List" is, it says you have to exchange a Bolter or Melee Weapon for the Special Weapon, and Bikes don't have either. So if you require that upgrades can only go in the order written, then per the FAQ, you still can't take Special Weapons because by the time you get to swapping a chainsword, you have already lost your opportunity to take a special weapon."
wargamer1985 wrote: Where does it state the apothecary is a veteran.... WHERE??? Since it has now been proven you cannot get your rules out to prove it and don't use another armies faq to back your argument as it is not valid for C:SM. If you cannot provide a rule that state a model called one thing can also count as another then please refrain from further providing false information
Where did anyone say that the Apothecary IS a Veteran? Are you trying to say that once he becomes one then he always was one? Because by that logic you can never have an Apothecary in the squad (The Unit Composition says "5 Veterans").
The Apothecary Upgrade and Special Weapon swaps are BOTH Options for Veterans. Neither is more important than the other, and there are no rules that state you can take one but not the other. The only rules you have are that Veterans can take any or all of their options as listed in the Codex.
Edit: If you read the Wargear section where the "Special Weapons List" is, it says you have to exchange a Bolter or Melee Weapon for the Special Weapon, and Bikes don't have either. So if you require that upgrades can only go in the order written, then per the FAQ, you still can't take Special Weapons because by the time you get to swapping a chainsword, you have already lost your opportunity to take a special weapon."
At this point I would stop arguing, he's clearly very stubborn and his opinion will likely not be swayed no matter how much sense you make. I'm hoping that GW will address this as it's painfully clear to me that the Apothecary can now have Veteran wargear, however each person can read anything however they please. I'm confident it will be allowed and I fully plan on equipping my Apothecary with wargear.
If model a is a veteran he has access to all the gear veterans do
Now ypu chhose to upgrade model a to an apothecary. With his own stat line which congratulations just lost his veteran status due to the fact he has his own stat line.
Now get your rules out that state the model can be give 2 completely independant stat lines with 2 seperate nsmes simultaneously
If model a is a veteran he has access to all the gear veterans do
Now ypu chhose to upgrade model a to an apothecary. With his own stat line which congratulations just lost his veteran status due to the fact he has his own stat line.
Now get your rules out that state the model can be give 2 completely independant stat lines with 2 seperate nsmes simultaneously
Show me the rules denying my permission to give my veteran both a Grav Rifle upgrade and an Apothecary upgrade as per their wargear entry. Page and Paragraph please. Also, please show me where in the rules it says an apothecary looses anything purchased upon becoming an Apothecary. Thanks, good luck.
Edit: Oh, also please don't use other armies FAQ's or Books to prove your assertion, thanks.
If model a is a veteran he has access to all the gear veterans do
Now ypu chhose to upgrade model a to an apothecary. With his own stat line which congratulations just lost his veteran status due to the fact he has his own stat line.
Now get your rules out that state the model can be give 2 completely independant stat lines with 2 seperate nsmes simultaneously
I never said, and will never say, that he has 2 Stat Lines with 2 Names. You are claiming that the Upgrade to Apothecary somehow magically makes him lose all his wargear. Show me a rule that says that. I am saying you do this:
Start Making your List, Decide to put in a Command Squad (Right now the squad is 5 "Veterans")
Choose to upgrade one of the "Veterans" swapping his Bolt Pistol for a Power Fist and taking a Storm Shield (Still 5 "Veterans", one of them just took 2 upgrades).
Choose to upgrade another "Veteran" swapping his Chainsword for a Grav Gun and Upgrading him to an Apothecary (Now his name changes, so we have 4 "Veterans" and 1 "Apothecary").
Both of these sets of upgrades are allowed by the rules in the codex (namely the list of upgrades you can take). You are claiming the 2nd line is invalid, even though the first one isn't. Why? Both options (Taking a Grav Gun and Upgrading to an Apothecary) are options that are ONLY available to Veterans. If the Apothecary was never a veteran at any point in this situation, then how did he become an Apothecary in the first place?
Or are you claiming that the Apothecary upgrade somehow has to happen first? If so, please provide a rule that says that.
Ghaz wrote: Permissive rules set and all requires that you show where an apothecary (and not a veteran) can take said grav rifle.
The Apothecary never takes a special weapon.
A veteran takes it and then gets upgraded to an Apothecary.
That is our statement and that is what we are going to do.
If you disagree with that reasoning, could you provide a rule that says my permission is wrong?
Ghaz wrote: Permissive rules set and all requires that you show where an apothecary (and not a veteran) can take said grav rifle.
Certainly here is my permission for my veteran to take the following upgrades listed on Page 164 of the Codex space marines. My veteran is given permission to purchase any of the war gear options, he is also given permission to take the Apothecary upgrade gaining him a narth. Please show me where I am denied permission for taking said upgrades. Please show me where any options are taken away from my Apothecary.
The order of upgrades isn't as important as the end result. An Apothecary does not have access to special weapons upgrades, so an Apothecary with a special weapon is an illegal Apothecary. We know from the Painboy FAQ that we can't use order of upgrades shenanigans to give upgrades to models that don't have the option of taking them. We know from the Shoota Boyz Nob FAQ that we can manipulate the order to get certain end results.
Taken together, we know we can manipulate the order of operations, but we can't use it to get options on a model that doesn't have access to those options. So there is no way to get a Special Weapon on an Apothecary, because only Veterans can have Special Weapons and an Apothecary is not a Veteran.
Kangodo wrote: The Apothecary never takes a special weapon.
A veteran takes it and then gets upgraded to an Apothecary.
That is our statement and that is what we are going to do.
If you disagree with that reasoning, could you provide a rule that says my permission is wrong?
I'm not even arguing a timing to it, I think it works just as well if both upgrades happen simultaneously, since both of them require the model to be a Veteran, and once you purchase the upgrades they are paid for and he has the items.
To the original question, the Permission is given by the Codex, which has a list of upgrades that models can take. If one of the models has permission to upgrade to an Apothecary (which is obviously true), then at the exact same time, that same model (which must currently be a Veteran in order for him to even think about becoming an Apothecary) also has permission to swap his chainsword for a Grav Gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chrysis wrote: The order of upgrades isn't as important as the end result. An Apothecary does not have access to special weapons upgrades, so an Apothecary with a special weapon is an illegal Apothecary. We know from the Painboy FAQ that we can't use order of upgrades shenanigans to give upgrades to models that don't have the option of taking them. We know from the Shoota Boyz Nob FAQ that we can manipulate the order to get certain end results.
Taken together, we know we can manipulate the order of operations, but we can't use it to get options on a model that doesn't have access to those options. So there is no way to get a Special Weapon on an Apothecary, because only Veterans can have Special Weapons and an Apothecary is not a Veteran.
While that might be what GW intended, FAQs for the Ork Codex have no relevance to the SM Codex. And there is no rule anywhere that says anything about illegal models. As long as you follow the rules you are given then you are fine.
Each model has a stat line ghat stat line determins what it is. Secondly order of upgrade is important. GW's order of upgrade is writen as the order in the book.
Secondly. Instead of calling for the correct ruling to be proven. And since you have been called out first to provide your supposed evidence.
GW write everything in a specific order for a reason.
And by stating an apothecary can take upgrades like a veteran you are stating he has 2 stat lines since a veteran and an apothecary have 1 statline each. But tell you what if you want to spend points on making your list illegal go ahead because as some one elsealready pointed out. Apothecarys cannot access gear. So the moment you upgrade to an apothecary you loose access to the veterans upgrades options
Kangodo wrote: The Apothecary never takes a special weapon.
A veteran takes it and then gets upgraded to an Apothecary.
That is our statement and that is what we are going to do.
If you disagree with that reasoning, could you provide a rule that says my permission is wrong?
I'm not even arguing a timing to it, I think it works just as well if both upgrades happen simultaneously, since both of them require the model to be a Veteran, and once you purchase the upgrades they are paid for and he has the items.
To the original question, the Permission is given by the Codex, which has a list of upgrades that models can take. If one of the models has permission to upgrade to an Apothecary (which is obviously true), then at the exact same time, that same model (which must currently be a Veteran in order for him to even think about becoming an Apothecary) also has permission to swap his chainsword for a Grav Gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chrysis wrote: The order of upgrades isn't as important as the end result. An Apothecary does not have access to special weapons upgrades, so an Apothecary with a special weapon is an illegal Apothecary. We know from the Painboy FAQ that we can't use order of upgrades shenanigans to give upgrades to models that don't have the option of taking them. We know from the Shoota Boyz Nob FAQ that we can manipulate the order to get certain end results.
Taken together, we know we can manipulate the order of operations, but we can't use it to get options on a model that doesn't have access to those options. So there is no way to get a Special Weapon on an Apothecary, because only Veterans can have Special Weapons and an Apothecary is not a Veteran.
While that might be what GW intended, FAQs for the Ork Codex have no relevance to the SM Codex. And there is no rule anywhere that says anything about illegal models. As long as you follow the rules you are given then you are fine.
If the Ork FAQs aren't relevant, then you don't have anything to support manipulating order of upgrades. So show me in the codex where it says an Apothecary can have a special weapon. Not a Veteran, an Apothecary. Including the relevant FAQs of course.
wargamer1985 wrote: Each model has a stat line ghat stat line determins what it is. Secondly order of upgrade is important. GW's order of upgrade is writen as the order in the book.
Secondly. Instead of calling for the correct ruling to be proven. And since you have been called out first to provide your supposed evidence.
GW write everything in a specific order for a reason.
And by stating an apothecary can take upgrades like a veteran you are stating he has 2 stat lines since a veteran and an apothecary have 1 statline each. But tell you what if you want to spend points on making your list illegal go ahead because as some one elsealready pointed out. Apothecarys cannot access gear. So the moment you upgrade to an apothecary you loose access to the veterans upgrades options
Okay, so the options can only be taken in the order they are written, that's your argument? Let's take a look at the SM Bikers unit. With the new FAQ that adds an option to the end of the list, they have these options (in order):
Up to 2 Bikers May take items from the Special Weapons list.
Any Biker may exchange his Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword.
So assuming you have to go in the order listed, you first have to trade a Melee weapon for a Special Weapon. Whoops! You don't have a Melee weapon, so I guess you can't take any special weapons. Now that that's over with, here you go, you can trade a Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword! Well crap! Too bad I couldn't do that first, I guess that means Bikes can't take any Special Weapons either.
Also, where is the rule that says you have to go in order, it appears to me like you are just given a set of options and can pick and choose from them as desired and they all happen simultaneously.
As for your last point, of course you lose access to the Veteran upgrades as soon as you upgrade to an Apothecary. Luckily, with the rules as currently written, that doesn't matter, because you can buy all your upgrades at the same time, and the only thing that matters is that you have access when you buy it. Once the options are done, it is irrelevant that the Apothecary can't take more wargear, because he already has it. There are no rules anywhere saying that if you lose access to something you also lose that wargear.
wargamer1985 wrote: Each model has a stat line ghat stat line determins what it is. Secondly order of upgrade is important. GW's order of upgrade is writen as the order in the book.
Secondly. Instead of calling for the correct ruling to be proven. And since you have been called out first to provide your supposed evidence.
GW write everything in a specific order for a reason.
And by stating an apothecary can take upgrades like a veteran you are stating he has 2 stat lines since a veteran and an apothecary have 1 statline each. But tell you what if you want to spend points on making your list illegal go ahead because as some one elsealready pointed out. Apothecarys cannot access gear. So the moment you upgrade to an apothecary you loose access to the veterans upgrades options
Okay, so the options can only be taken in the order they are written, that's your argument? Let's take a look at the SM Bikers unit. With the new FAQ that adds an option to the end of the list, they have these options (in order):
Up to 2 Bikers May take items from the Special Weapons list.
Any Biker may exchange his Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword.
So assuming you have to go in the order listed, you first have to trade a Melee weapon for a Special Weapon. Whoops! You don't have a Melee weapon, so I guess you can't take any special weapons. Now that that's over with, here you go, you can trade a Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword! Well crap! Too bad I couldn't do that first, I guess that means Bikes can't take any Special Weapons either.
Also, where is the rule that says you have to go in order, it appears to me like you are just given a set of options and can pick and choose from them as desired and they all happen simultaneously.
As for your last point, of course you lose access to the Veteran upgrades as soon as you upgrade to an Apothecary. Luckily, with the rules as currently written, that doesn't matter, because you can buy all your upgrades at the same time, and the only thing that matters is that you have access when you buy it. Once the options are done, it is irrelevant that the Apothecary can't take more wargear, because he already has it. There are no rules anywhere saying that if you lose access to something you also lose that wargear.
Additionally, there are rules that prevent unit X from upgrading into unit Y by stating that you need to replace equipment that a model might not have if you had purchased other wargear. For instance the Champion literally 2 options above the apothecary prevents you from purchasing wargear and upgrading because he has to replace items. The apothecary only gains something, looses nothing.
Chrysis wrote: If the Ork FAQs aren't relevant, then you don't have anything to support manipulating order of upgrades. So show me in the codex where it says an Apothecary can have a special weapon. Not a Veteran, an Apothecary. Including the relevant FAQs of course.
See my post above about the process of making a list. I'm not saying there is an order, I'm saying all upgrades happen at the same time. According to the codex, a Veteran has the option of taking a Grav Gun. He also has the option of taking a Power Fist. He ALSO has the option of upgrading to an Apothecary. Those are written in the Codex (and the SMFAQ), giving you permission to do them. You have permission to do any or all of them, as you see fit. Why is it okay to follow the rules and take a Grav Gun and Power Fist, but not okay to take a Grav Gun and Apothecary upgrade? They are all written the same way, and you are given permission to do all of them in the Codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wargamer1985 wrote: You do not have to trade a weapon. I quoted the entry word for word for bikers
And you still fail to provide any evidence to back your arugument from the BRB or BRBfaq
Read the Wargear Page, under the entry "Special Weapons List," which specifically says "A model may exchange his Bolter or Melee Weapon for one of the following:"
And my argument has nothing to do with the BRB, the SM Codex specifically lists out the upgrade options that are available to the squad. If an Apothecary doesn't start out as a Veteran, then how did he become an Apothecary?
Chrysis wrote: If the Ork FAQs aren't relevant, then you don't have anything to support manipulating order of upgrades. So show me in the codex where it says an Apothecary can have a special weapon. Not a Veteran, an Apothecary. Including the relevant FAQs of course.
See my post above about the process of making a list. I'm not saying there is an order, I'm saying all upgrades happen at the same time. According to the codex, a Veteran has the option of taking a Grav Gun. He also has the option of taking a Power Fist. He ALSO has the option of upgrading to an Apothecary. Those are written in the Codex (and the SMFAQ), giving you permission to do them. You have permission to do any or all of them, as you see fit. Why is it okay to follow the rules and take a Grav Gun and Power Fist, but not okay to take a Grav Gun and Apothecary upgrade? They are all written the same way, and you are given permission to do all of them in the Codex.
Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?
Page 2 1st paragraph final sentence specifically states a model is its stat line. Therefor paying to upgrade a veteran to an apothecary looses it veteran status on the grounds of having its own unique profile.
Weapons:
Page51 para 7 allows pistols to be used as a ccw and thefor allows the replacement of said pistol with a special
Now. You.have forced me to prove how wrong you are with the apothecary via the brb so get yours out and provide page para and line numbers that you claim allow you to do so
Chrysis wrote: Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?
That's a fair point, and my only argument (admittedly weak) against that is that requiring the order they are listed would cause issues with sequential upgrades (such as the SM Biker one I mentioned above). It really makes me wish that GW had a better, more concrete ruleset, but 16 years and counting and they haven't even really tried.
FWIW I think the RaI always was that you can't take upgrades on them, otherwise they would most likely have listed the Apothecary specifically in the upgrades section as being able to take wargear.
This is very much like buying marks for cultists and then turn them into zombies thing. Order of operations clearly doesn't matter but GW likes only making specific guidelines. the CSMFAQ only says if they're zombies the only thing you can do is buy more zombies. They should've put it in the BrB what their intention on upgrades was.
Sorry if someone made this point, one and a half pages of "yes", "no" was all I could do.
Chrysis wrote: Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?
That's a fair point, and my only argument (admittedly weak) against that is that requiring the order they are listed would cause issues with sequential upgrades (such as the SM Biker one I mentioned above). It really makes me wish that GW had a better, more concrete ruleset, but 16 years and counting and they haven't even really tried.
FWIW I think the RaI always was that you can't take upgrades on them, otherwise they would most likely have listed the Apothecary specifically in the upgrades section as being able to take wargear.
The bikers entry is only a problem if you believe the Bolt Pistol isn't a Melee weapon outside the Assault Phase, at which point you run head long into the "No Specified Melee Weapon" rule on page 51. Strict army list order is more of a problem for Chaos, where the Marks are after the Artefacts which would mean no one could take the Axe of Blind Fury. So we "know" we can do them in an order outside the listed one, but it is only stated explicitly in the Ork FAQ. The Ork FAQ also states that the order can't be used to get options on models that don't have those options (Painboy). There's no way to introduce explicit support for anything other than strict list ordering without also introducing a prohibition on granting wargear to models that don't have the option for that wargear.
Chrysis wrote: Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?
In the rulebook. They have a dozen options, I pick my options. Since the BRB doesn't tell us if it's simultaneous or one by one, I can decide for myself.
Chrysis wrote: Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?
In the rulebook.
They have a dozen options, I pick my options.
Since the BRB doesn't tell us if it's simultaneous or one by one, I can decide for myself.
"It doesn't say I can't" isn't a rules argument.
Are all upgrades always simultaneous? Or are they only simultaneous when it benefits you? If they're simultaneous, you still check the prerequisites before applying the upgrade right?
That's why I did not use it as an argument.
It says we can take upgrades => I take upgrades.
That results into a Veteran taking both the Grav-gun ánd Apothecary upgrade.
Might not be RAI, but at the same time it might be, so I will do it until they fix it.
No, it says I can take an upgrade. So I take an upgrade. I am strictly following what the book says.
You want to force me to take them one by one, following the order in the list. But where is that rule?
The "permissive-ruleset" has nothing to do with this discussion! It only tells you if you are allowed to do something, the rules itself tell you how you should be doing that. Permissive-ruleset only shows his head when I want to take upgrades. The BRB tells me I can take upgrades and 'permissive ruleset' is happy.
As a curiousity, I recall a Melee weapon that if you wound a model all other models with the same profile name and state line take wounds (or something to that effect). By the logic of some people in this thread the company champion and apoth would both be taking wounds if a Vet took the initial wound.
Trazyn the infinite has that rule. And he hurts all models with the same name.
Does the Veteran have the same name as the Apothecary at the time of the wounding?
Chrysis wrote: Taking upgrades simultaneously to circumvent a restriction is a little bit more than just taking upgrades. But let's leave that aside for now.
It's only a "little more" if you accept that there is a restriction in the first place.
Are upgrades always simultaneous?
No, you can pick them in any order.
That is proven by the fact that some models first have to take "upgrade 5" before they unlock "upgrade 4".
I'm talking about stuff like Bikers, who first need to upgrade their pistol to a chainsword before being able to take Special Weapons.
When are the prerequisites for an upgrade checked?
congratulations you finally got it right.. Yes you put it dfferently but you still admit it
You state you check if you meet the requirement for the upgrade when taking it. So you buy your grav gun or what ever hen check. You meet the requirements. Now you buy your apothecary upgrade for the same model. HOWEVER you need to check you still gain access to the armory. You don't as you are now an apothecary not not a veteran as per page 2 paea 1 final sentence of the BRB Now unless tou can provide a rules counter not an opinion which is all you have done so far please admit you have een wrong
Automatically Appended Next Post: I state this because it is clearly supposed to be done one of 2 ways the majority say order of the list heck im even willing to allow simultaneously upgrading. But you have no rule that states you can buy in any order you want and given it is a permissive rule set which does have a bearing on this discussion you do not have permission to upgrade in whatever order you want
I agree with Rigeld2, could you please prove that claim?
My book doesn't say anything about 'checking if you can still have that upgrade', so I am following the rules exactly like they are written there.
And can you give me the page that tells me how to upgrade and in what order?
Because due to FAQ's and other stuff we have a lot of units who replace their pistol with a chainsword BEFORE upgrading anything.
That's a clear sign that the order doesn't matter.
Not sure why no one has said before, but on page 88 of the codex it specifically lists the equipment an apothecary has. Power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag+krak grenades and Narthecium
So doing it in the order people want, upgrade a veteran with a fancy gun, then upgrade to an apothecary, the kit list on page 88 for the apothecary come into effect overwriting the fancy gun upgrade. And since he's now an apothecary not a veteran, we can't buy veteran upgrades for him.
Because you don't replace him with an Apothecary.
Other codices do have this wording where they replace the Wargear, but this unit does not have this wording.
I would also like to add to this thread for the posters claiming that "You must take upgrades in the order they are listed." That the FAQ states "add the following to the list." When allowing the purchase of special weapons. It does not tell you where in the list to place this new rule. If order in the list were important would the FAQ not state where in the list to add said upgrade?
The earlier section of the book listing an apothecaries equipment has no baring on what he has after purchasing upgrades. When do you check if you have an illegal selection? At no point is the selection illegal. You are purchasing upgrades for a Veteran of which an Apothecary is one — an upgrade.
It follows the sad logic people are using of I use this check to buy this then do that... It is straight forward. Page 2 para 1 final sentence brb states the model is its stat line.
In this flipping case once you upgrade a member of the unit to an apothecary he is NO LONGER A VETERAN AS HE IS NOT CALLED A VETERAN APOTHECARY it is plain clear simple english. The apothecary cannot take other upgrades
Automatically Appended Next Post: And ckaiming an Apothecary is still a veteran look at the section of the rule book you all keep ignoring
Nobody ignores that.
Nobody takes upgrades on an Apothecary.
They take the upgrade while he's still a Veteran.
Maybe they'll FAQ it to "One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, replacing his Chainsword for a Chainsword and a Narthecium."
That would 'fix' the 'problem' and changing the current ruling that allows special weapons.
wargamer1985 wrote: HOWEVER you need to check you still gain access to the armory.
Please prove this assertion.
Following the reasoning you need to maintain your armoury to keep a weapon upgrade, then Farsight when taken in an Enclaves list has no warlord trait as he no longer has access to the table with his fixed warlord trait.
Just my two cents on the OP's question. Apothecary is a word used to describe what the model does. If an apothecary was a DIFFERENT UNIT it would have its own statline..but as such the apothecary uses the VETERAN statline still...so he is a veteran, and he can take whatever veterans take.
He will only stop being a veteran when they give him a unique statline.
Isean wrote: Just my two cents on the OP's question. Apothecary is a word used to describe what the model does. If an apothecary was a DIFFERENT UNIT it would have its own statline..but as such the apothecary uses the VETERAN statline still...so he is a veteran, and he can take whatever veterans take.
He will only stop being a veteran when they give him a unique statline.
He has a unique statline and he has a unique equipment profile
So looking through things because I was bored I noticed GW making different rulings on an identical issue (Yeah I know, GW being inconsistent? Gasp!) We all know GWs feelings on Painboyz and upgrades, as that ruling has been in effect since 5th edition.
However, if anyone still has the 4th edition Dark Angels codex (the one that was just replaced) please look at the last option for Deathwing Terminators. Then compare what it says to the current issue. Go ahead I'll wait. ... ... ... Ok are you back? Cool, now check this out. This is from the last 5th edition FAQ, and I believe it was in the 6th edition FAQ for DA until the new codex was released:
Q. When I upgrade Deathwing and Ravenwing models to Standard Bearers and/or Apothecaries, can they still use items such as lightning claws, thunder hammers and storm shields, assault cannons, meltaguns, flamers and plasma guns? (p81) A. Yes, because they are extraordinary individuals!
I underlined the important bit. So according to GW Deathwing Apothecaries were able to take Terminator-only upgrades...hmmm...the plot thickens.
Happyjew wrote: So looking through things because I was bored I noticed GW making different rulings on an identical issue (Yeah I know, GW being inconsistent? Gasp!)
We all know GWs feelings on Painboyz and upgrades, as that ruling has been in effect since 5th edition.
However, if anyone still has the 4th edition Dark Angels codex (the one that was just replaced) please look at the last option for Deathwing Terminators. Then compare what it says to the current issue. Go ahead I'll wait.
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Ok are you back? Cool, now check this out. This is from the last 5th edition FAQ, and I believe it was in the 6th edition FAQ for DA until the new codex was released:
Q. When I upgrade Deathwing and Ravenwing models
to Standard Bearers and/or Apothecaries, can they still
use items such as lightning claws, thunder hammers
and storm shields, assault cannons, meltaguns, flamers
and plasma guns? (p81)
A. Yes, because they are extraordinary individuals!
I underlined the important bit. So according to GW Deathwing Apothecaries were able to take Terminator-only upgrades...hmmm...the plot thickens.
This is why I am strongly of the opinion they get to keep their upgrades. I played Deathwing before the release of the 6th ed DA codex.
As of right now, this is what we have:
Orks (Painboy) - cannot take upgrades via FAQ.
BA (Furioso Librarian) - loses all wargear, cannot take upgrades via BA codex/FAQ DA (DW Apothecary) - could take upgrades but that was an old codex.
So as it stands, if we assume that each unit (not including Orks) takes options in the order of the bullet points, then the only issue comes in on SM Bike squads. However, I believe it is logical that the added option of swapping for a CCW would be in between adding more bikers and taking weapons from Special Weapons. This would of course mean that Apothecaries would not be able to take Veteran upgrades.
IRRC it was a Dark Eldar Melee weapon. So would those that believe that the apoth can take a special weapon take a wound on the apoth if a Vet was hit and wounded by this weapon that I perviously mentioned?
I've seen this argument before. I have never seen anything in the rules that indicates the options for a unit may only be taken in a specific order. The only logical conclusions we can draw from all of the codex FAQs are as fallows.
0) Not all options necessarily apply to all models in the unit.
1) Changing a model in the unit through an upgrade can change what options are available to it.
2) The order you choose the options does not matter.
3) If an option requires something be given up, the model must have that something for the option to be valid.
4) A model only loose an item if it is told to give it up as part of an option.
5) Some options may not be valid because of the order you choose to take them in.
6) Some options can be a waste of points depending on the order you choose to take them in.
If you feel you know of a specific FAQ entry that refutes these conclusions lets hear it.
it may be worth comparing the way the command squad entry is written to the way the tactical squad entry is written. the command squad has been listed numerous times so i'll just reference the relevant points on the tac entry:
- unit composition - 4 space marines, 1 space marine sergeant
- options - "may upgrade the space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant"
- options - "the space marine sergeant or veteran sergeant may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with a chainsword"
- options - "the space marine sergeant or veteran sergeant may take items from the melee weapons and/or ranged weapons lists"
- options - "the space marine sergeant or veteran sergeant may take any of the following"
- there are 3 profiles on the unit: space marine, space marine sergeant, veteran sergeant
it seems that the veteran sergeant needs to have explicit permission to take any upgrades items (by virtue of it being explicitly specified). if you agree that the apothecary upgrade changes the profile of the model, then the veteran sergeant upgrade for tacs is the same principle. since the vet sgt has written permission to take items, he takes them; the apothecary does not have same written permission.
note that the veteran sergeant and the space marine sergeant have exactly the same upgrades available to them. what would be the point of them listing the vet sgt separately if the vet sgt ALREADY has the options available to him by virtue of him at one point in time having been a space marine sergeant in the 'army building stage'? it seems like in order for both types of sergeant to have the same upgrades available, the unit entry had to be written in such a way as to allow it. that they get the same weapons does not seem to be implied, by virtue of it having been explicitly stated. the options for a command squad are not written in the same way; the apothecaries are not given express permission to carry special weapons even though veterans are.
it seems like the upgrade to apothecary is a downgrade to himself in exchange for feel no pain on the unit. is 15 points a fair trade for that buff? however, it also seems like the company champion could be less well equipped than his veteran brothers, who can take a storm shield while he gets only a combat shield... that seems both odd and unfluffy.
wargamer1985 wrote: ...In this flipping case once you upgrade a member of the unit to an apothecary he is NO LONGER A VETERAN AS HE IS NOT CALLED A VETERAN APOTHECARY it is plain clear simple english. The apothecary cannot take other upgrades...
I don't see this as an issue. You're correct, the Apothecary doesn't have access to special weapon upgrades. But no-where, in either Codex, Rule Book or Supplement does it say he can't have one. He just can't upgrade to one.
And no-where does it state that a model is "illegal" (not my choice of words) for possessing a certain weapon or wargear that has been selected following the rules as laid down in their unit entry.
So it simply comes back to the application of timing for the upgrades. Which we're all agreed isn't crystal clear. For my part, I can't be arsed converting my Apothecary to carry a special weapon, but I'd happily play anyone that did.
I don't think an apothecary can take veteran wargear. Never has been able to in any previous codex, including DA. I wish they could, it would make more sense, but nothing GW does makes sense.
Fulcrum wrote: I don't think an apothecary can take veteran wargear. Never has been able to in any previous codex, including DA. I wish they could, it would make more sense, but nothing GW does makes sense.
3rd edititon Codex: Space Marines allowed your Apothecary and Techmarine to run around waving a thunder hammer and a bolter. They also could have a special or heavy weapon. All at the same time! That's of course if I remember the weapon rules correctly, specifically that special and heavy weapons don't have a handedness mentioned. Bolters do so that's a different matter.
Older BT-codex specifically says that you can't upgrade a special or heavy weapons dude into a specialist (apothecary, standard bearer, champion). The sergeant could have a bigger gun.
Fulcrum wrote: I don't think an apothecary can take veteran wargear. Never has been able to in any previous codex, including DA. I wish they could, it would make more sense, but nothing GW does makes sense.
Actually, in the previous codex, DW/RW Apothecaries could take upgrades like the CML (which was restricted to DW Terminators).
I dont agree with Apothecaries being able to have upgrades because the current Blood Angel codex FAQ prohibits Apothecaries from having upgrades because they do not count as honor guard.
IMO, once you select the Apothecary upgrade for a veteran, they cease being a Veteran, they adopt the Apothecary statline and thats it.
The only upgrades that would be allowed are ones that apply to the entire squad, such as buying bikes for the entire squad.
Th0rh4mm3r wrote: I dont agree with Apothecaries being able to have upgrades because the current Blood Angel codex FAQ prohibits Apothecaries from having upgrades because they do not count as honor guard.
IMO, once you select the Apothecary upgrade for a veteran, they cease being a Veteran, they adopt the Apothecary statline and thats it.
The only upgrades that would be allowed are ones that apply to the entire squad, such as buying bikes for the entire squad.
You are right, well 90 % right. The point I'm trying to make that you are missing is that while the Apothecary does not have access to the options available to any veteran the act up upgrading him does not invalidate any previous choice. There is no restriction on the order you take these options.
Lets try an example. I have a command squad made up of 5 identical veterans.
VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
I select Veteran B and give him a storm shield.
VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
I also select Veteran A and upgrade him to a company champion. He must exchange his chainsword as part of this upgrade.
CHAMPIAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Combat Shield, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
At this point model A is no longer a Veteran and a bunch of options just became invalid for him. Model B however still is a veteran and now I decide I want him to be an Apothecary. No equipment is replaced as part of this upgrade.
CHAMPIAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Combat Shield, Grenades
APOTHECARY B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield, Narthecium
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
At this point model B is no longer a Veteran and a bunch of options just became invalid for him. These options were valid at an erlier time to none of those previous choices are invalid.
Now lets rewind to before Model A was upgraded to a champion.
VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
Lets say I want to replace Veteran B's chain sword with a Lightning Claw
VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
and then upgrade 'B' to a Company Champion. He no longer has a chainsword to replace so he will not get a power weapon or combat shield.
VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
CHAMPION B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
All of these are valid scenarios because there is no restriction in the order the options must be taken. The reason this does not work for the blood angels because in that unit the model never was an honour guard, none of the the options were ever valid.
I have to disagree on the last one.
The entry says you have to replace the Chainsword.
You don't have a Chainsword.
To me that means you cannot take the upgrade.
Kangodo wrote: I have to disagree on the last one.
The entry says you have to replace the Chainsword.
You don't have a Chainsword.
To me that means you cannot take the upgrade.
I was on the fence for that one myself. I went this way because the way they wrote the choice. The replacement is an effect of the upgrade, not a cost like it is with taking weapons from the wargear list. That and there are a few FAQ entries that support the idea of you do as much of the option as possible (i.e its not all or nothing)
The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom, so for the example of the Command Squad the order is
- are you taking a banner?
- is one model becoming the Company Champion?
- is one model becoming an Apothecary?
- are you mounting the squad on bikes?
- any Veteran taking melta bombs or storm shield?
- etc for the other weapon options for Veterans
- is the unit taking a transport?
using this process by the time you get to taking the special weapons and some gear (melta bombs and SS) the model that was a Veteran is now an Apothecary and cannot pick them up.
CrashCanuck wrote: The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom.
I'm assuming you put the Bike Squad option (replace bot pistol with chainsword) right after adding more models?
CrashCanuck wrote: The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,
I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.
Evidence in the Eldar Codex supports that when a Model takes an upgrade that changes its Profile/Name, it loses access to upgrades that specified its previous Profile/Name as a eligible model to take the upgrade.
Under Dark Reapers:
"All Dark Reapers in the unit may take starshot missiles... X pts/Model"
" Upgrade one Dark Reaper to a Dark Reaper Exarch... Y pts"
"If the Dark Reaper Exarch has a reaper launcher, he may take starshot missiles... Z pts" - (reaper launchers are the default weapon. Since Exarchs can change out their weapon prior to when this upgrade is listed, it is specified to make sure the modle has the right weapon for the upgrade.)
Its clear GW intended for some upgrades to be taken by anyone in the unit and others taken only by specific models.
CrashCanuck wrote: The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,
I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.
Sweet, now we can have MoN plague zombies by giving them the MoN before making them zombies. Why didn't I think of that? (Add sarcasm)
CrashCanuck wrote: The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,
I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.
Sweet, now we can have MoN plague zombies by giving them the MoN before making them zombies. Why didn't I think of that? (Add sarcasm)
Although I am with you on the Apothecary not being able to take weapons your plague zombie example doesn't work as they have a special rule (in typhus's profile) that prevents them from taking upgrades. Not quite the same thing.
CrashCanuck wrote: The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,
I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.
Sweet, now we can have MoN plague zombies by giving them the MoN before making them zombies. Why didn't I think of that? (Add sarcasm)
Although I am with you on the Apothecary not being able to take weapons your plague zombie example doesn't work as they have a special rule (in typhus's profile) that prevents them from taking upgrades. Not quite the same thing.
Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).
Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).
Happyjew wrote: Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).
Its not the same thing though. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. This rule invalidates any choices made before upgrading. The upgraded to an Apoth veteran has no such rule and as such no choices are made invalid via upgrading.
Out of curiosity, does any one have the enhanced ipad codex with the force requisition tool? What happens in the tool if you replace all the bolters in the squad with storm bolters and give the squad 5 storm shield then upgrade the one veteran to an apothecary? Will it even let you do that? If so does it tell you what the apothecary's war gear is? Will it let you exchange his bolter for a storm bolter after you upgrade him?
I mean, the ipad tool may not be perfect but until we are told other wise it should answer any RAI questions.
inkybones wrote: Yeah they can't take a grav-gun because its a 'special' weapon, veterans in a command squad can only take 'ranged' weapons. Pg 164 second last option.
Happyjew wrote: Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).
Its not the same thing though. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. This rule invalidates any choices made before upgrading.
Someone did not read the Errata...
Plague Zombies are
Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow
and Purposeful special rules and cannot purchase options other than to add additional models to the unit.
I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.
Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?
What foundation is there for the belief the options must be taken in top down order? Failing that what foundation is there to believe a Veteran with nonstandard wargear that is upgraded to something other than a veteran must revert back to the standard wargear 1st? These are two leaps of logic that do not make sense to me.
I will have to add my support to the apothecary being able to take weapons.
The apothecary has no restrictions on purchasing equipment, as in there is no rule saying he cant have anything. Unlike that of zombies.
As a small axiom:
Consider that all upgrades at list building time are happening all at the same instant.
Now:
The model in question is both at the same time an apothecary and a veteran.
Comparing that to the zombie:
At the same time the zombie is a cultist. Cultist has weapon options, zombie has restriction. You must adhere to the rule that limits. (thus the zombie cultist gets nothing)
However, as stated, the apothecary has no restriction, thus no rule of limit to adhere to. (unlike the zombie/cultist)
Therefore, Apothecary/Vertan is allowed to buy weapons because the Apothecary has no limits, and the Veteran has the options.
Applying the same Axiom to the boy squad reference, the model in question is both a boy and a Nob. While the Nob doesn't have the rule, he doesn't have the restriction. And the Boy has the option.
Thus the Nob is allowed a Big Shoota.
If you try to argue that the Boy can now take a Power Klaw you are incorrect, because the upgrade is still in question and the upgrade to Nob must be paid for this Axiom/situation to take place.
Also know as the model in question is not a hybrid until the upgrade is paid for to cause the hybrid effect.
DJGietzen wrote: [snip]Failing that what foundation is there to believe a Veteran with nonstandard wargear that is upgraded to something other than a veteran must revert back to the standard wargear 1st?[snip]
This example only makes a points difference of 2 but I believe it shows intent for models upgraded to a different model with a new printed statline to reset their wargear.
Eldar Dark reapers. Starting with a unit of 3 I decide I want to take starshot missiles for the unit. The codex says the All Dark Reapers in the unit may take them at X cost per model. So now I have 3 Dark Reapers with Reaper lauchers with starswarm and starshot missiles for wargear. Now i am given the option to upgrade one into a Dark Reaper Exarch. The exarch has a few other weapon choices but If he keeps his Reaper Launcher in favor of the other weapon choices he is given the option to again take Starshot missiles but for Y points this time. But if his wargear didn't reset when i upgraded him he already has starshot missiles. Y>X so he got them for a cheaper point cost. Why would anyone ever pay more points for the same upgrade if he can take it prior to changing his model type?
The best answer is he lost the starshot missiles when he upgraded since they were for "Dark Reapers" not "Dark Reaper Exacrhs"
DJGietzen wrote: I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.
Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?
Citation needed. I see a rule that says Zombies cannot purchase options other than more models, however, in this hypothetical situation, the zombies are not purchasing upgrades. I take a unit of Cultists. I purchase a Mark of Nurgle. I nominate them to be PZs.
DJGietzen wrote: I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.
Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?
Citation needed. I see a rule that says Zombies cannot purchase options other than more models, however, in this hypothetical situation, the zombies are not purchasing upgrades. I take a unit of Cultists. I purchase a Mark of Nurgle. I nominate them to be PZs.
DJGietzen wrote: I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.
Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?
Citation needed. I see a rule that says Zombies cannot purchase options other than more models, however, in this hypothetical situation, the zombies are not purchasing upgrades. I take a unit of Cultists. I purchase a Mark of Nurgle. I nominate them to be PZs.
My above areguement will solve this issue.
Then you can provide a RAW argument that an Apothecary can purchase upgrades? I see permission for Veterans but not Champions or Apothecaries.
I'm pointing out that you could try and use the logic of "Oh I bought "X" first and then I upgraded to "model", so even though "model" does not have permission to purchase said upgrade he can still have it." with just about any unit and it doesn't work.
There are 4 rulings on this topic that I'm aware of.
Orks - Boyz -> Nob: You can purchase certain upgrades in any order thus allowing your Nob to replace something that the unit does not have.
Orks - Nob-> Painboy: Painboy cannot take certain upgrades.
Blood Angels - Furioso Dreadnought: If you upgrade to Librarian you lose all wargear (per codex), Librarian cannot take options (per FAQ)
Dark Angels (4th edition codex) - Deathwing/Ravenwing Apothecaries: Per the FAQ, they could take special weapons, however, this codex is no longer in use.
Looks like the answer is no. The update to the Force Organization portion of the Digital Edition of the codex will not allow you to add weapons to the Apothocary.
Still yet to hear an answer from the pro-options side on if a company champ or apoth will take a wound if a vet is hit by that previously mentioned melee weapon... Really if you think they won't based on the fact they are a champ or apoth with a different stat line but still claim you can retoactivly equip them as vets then we might as well allow MoN plague zombies at this point.
davin1023 wrote: Looks like the answer is no. The update to the Force Organization portion of the Digital Edition of the codex will not allow you to add weapons to the Apothocary.
I'd live to see screen grabs or a video (as I don't even know how the tool looks) but specifically. If you have a 5 man command squad and give all 5 of them a storm shield then upgrade one to an apothecary, does the apothecary have a storm shield? Does the squad only have 4 storm shields? Can you even do it in that order?
despite the attempt to saddle space marines with the Ork rules, the digital codex after the upgrade states Any veteran may upgrade a special weapon. so if you have 5 including a apothecary and champion they all can have the grave gun. The vet upgrading to have a Nethercium dosent cease to be a vet.
Lungpickle wrote: despite the attempt to saddle space marines with the Ork rules, the digital codex after the upgrade states Any veteran may upgrade a special weapon. so if you have 5 including a apothecary and champion they all can have the grave gun. The vet upgrading to have a Nethercium dosent cease to be a vet.
Ok so if that special dark eldar melee weapon happened to inflict a wound on a vet then the apoth would take a wound along with the rest of the vets in the same combat? That is essentially what you're saying, that regardless of present name and statline the apoth and Champ are ALWAYS veterans.
davin1023 wrote: Looks like the answer is no. The update to the Force Organization portion of the Digital Edition of the codex will not allow you to add weapons to the Apothocary.
I'd live to see screen grabs or a video (as I don't even know how the tool looks) but specifically. If you have a 5 man command squad and give all 5 of them a storm shield then upgrade one to an apothecary, does the apothecary have a storm shield? Does the squad only have 4 storm shields? Can you even do it in that order?
As a five man squad you can equip up to 10 items. So one thunder hammer and one gavgun each. As soon as you upgrade to the Apothecary it resets all choices, and you can now only select 8 items. The same is true with the champion. If you have both a champion and an apothecary you are limited to 6 choices.
Stormshields are actually in a different area of the page, however, they work the same way. (Melts bombs are also in this section and function identically.) Champions and Apothecaries can not take them. You can however, take a gravgun, thunder hammer, and a storm shield on the veterans.
Lungpickle wrote: Hmm my digital codex under force requisition allows me 5 grav guns, a champ and apothecary. So looks like he can have a gun.
Keep adding, you'll actually be able to add 8 total, two weapons per veteran. If you drop the apothecary you will be able to add 10. And if you add the champion in you'll be able to add 6.
The reason you can add a 5th is because there is nothing stopping a model from having two gravguns. It's useless but legal.
Yeah, Veterans can take special weapons, and they have two weapons they can replace. So they can have a special weapon and a bolter or even two special weapons. Which is stupid.
What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.
ah64pilot5 wrote: What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.
I agree it needs an FAQ to specify. I'm just trying to pass along info from what I Believe is the most up to date version of the codex.
ah64pilot5 wrote: What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.
I agree it needs an FAQ to specify. I'm just trying to pass along info from what I Believe is the most up to date version of the codex.
I also agree, in fact I do have the version with the force org and it will allow me to give all the veterans special weapons just fine and does nothing to prevent me from having one for each model (including the champion and apothecary).
ah64pilot5 wrote: What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.
I agree it needs an FAQ to specify. I'm just trying to pass along info from what I Believe is the most up to date version of the codex.
I also agree, in fact I do have the version with the force org and it will allow me to give all the veterans special weapons just fine and does nothing to prevent me from having one for each model (including the champion and apothecary).
How many total weapons can you give them? I can do 10 per squad if there is no apothecary or champion. And then two less for each of those in the squad. Strangely it only let's me do 5 gravguns, no matter what.
I wouldn't trust the digital codex, because It could easily change to allow what the pro weapon upgrades are wanting. However, this doesn't we don't need a FAQ. I will be interested to see how major tournaments like FOB will rule it, because if a large tourny supports the idea of A or B players play that way. For now, my apothecary has a power fist because of rule of cool.
ah64pilot5 wrote: What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.
For me it was never about RAW. Clearly the RAW is a little vague and almost every argument here is really about RAI. Thanks to the ipad codex RAI is clear, and RAW is a lot less vague once you know the author's intent.
Bausk wrote: Good job ignoring that I've been posting in the thread since page four, yet no one cares to answer the questions I ask.
What questions?
"As a curiousity, I recall a Melee weapon that if you wound a model all other models with the same profile name and state line take wounds (or something to that effect). By the logic of some people in this thread the company champion and apoth would both be taking wounds if a Vet took the initial wound." Nobody says that and that would not be 'by the logic of some people'.
Ignoring a single person or so, nobody claims that the Apothecary is still a Veteran.
They only say that a Veteran can take an upgrade, then upgrade to Apothecary.
Bausk wrote: Good job ignoring that I've been posting in the thread since page four, yet no one cares to answer the questions I ask.
What questions?
"As a curiousity, I recall a Melee weapon that if you wound a model all other models with the same profile name and state line take wounds (or something to that effect). By the logic of some people in this thread the company champion and apoth would both be taking wounds if a Vet took the initial wound." Nobody says that and that would not be 'by the logic of some people'.
Ignoring a single person or so, nobody claims that the Apothecary is still a Veteran.
They only say that a Veteran can take an upgrade, then upgrade to Apothecary.
And that's where the Ork FAQ precedent comes into play. Unless there is a precedent supporting changing profiles and keeping upgrades from the previous profile that you'd like to mention? If not then I can only infer that the Pro-side assume Apothecary is both a Veteran and an Apothecary to maintain its upgrade. The digital Codex, admittedly still in beta, supports the Con-side as well.
So lets recap those five and a bit pages for you.
Pro
It doesn't say I can't
Con
Permissive rule set - It doesn't specifically say you can
precedent - Ork FAQ Digital Codex
precedent - Plague Zombies - Minus a single FAQ'd exception.
That about wraps it up. Oh yes, and no unit in the entirety of 40k allows upgrades/options to pass from one Profile to another.
It would be like arguing a Terminator Captain gets a command squad, even though it has a different profile to the Captain and is not specifically listed in the allowed HQs under the command squad.
I think this might be easier if I discuss the Con's:
Permissive: It does say that a Veteran can take the weapon, then we continue by upgrading it to an Apothecary. So we have permission.
Ork FAQ: Not a precedent because you upgrade the Veteran whereas the Ork-codex says: "One Nob may be a Painboy". This tells us that he turns into a Painboy, which implies that he swaps all Wargear for his new Wargear.
Digital Codex: This is the first thing that end this discussion, but we have to see how much 'authority' these Army Builders have.
Because at the moment their Builder does not correctly reflect the Codex/FAQ.
Plague Zombie: How is that a precedent? If anything that should be a 'Pro' since they need the extra rule. It would be a precedent if it said something like "Remember that they cannot purchase upgrades since they are now Plague Zombies!".
By 'continuing' to upgrade you are not being magically granted permission to apply one profiles options to another. No matter how you attempt to spin it.
The Nob may take an option (we'll use that as the collective term for all upgrades and other options like profile swapping) to become a Painboy.
Just as a Veteran may take an option to change to an Apothecary, the profile is changed, Which Implies that he swaps all his Wargear for that of an Apothecary. In the same manner as a Nob becoming a Painboy.
As I mentioned the Digital Codex is still in beta, however I don't own one so I don't know how it does not reflect the current FAQ. Thus cannot comment to it. But if it's a FAQ and not the Errata section then I fail to see how it could short of a back flip on GWs part from the original print.
Plague Zombies serve as a further precedent of a units model changing profile. They also serve as precedent that in order to gain a retroactive Option from a previous profile you need a specific exception.
Bausk wrote: Good job ignoring that I've been posting in the thread since page four, yet no one cares to answer the questions I ask.
What questions?
"As a curiousity, I recall a Melee weapon that if you wound a model all other models with the same profile name and state line take wounds (or something to that effect). By the logic of some people in this thread the company champion and apoth would both be taking wounds if a Vet took the initial wound." Nobody says that and that would not be 'by the logic of some people'.
Ignoring a single person or so, nobody claims that the Apothecary is still a Veteran.
They only say that a Veteran can take an upgrade, then upgrade to Apothecary.
And that's where the Ork FAQ precedent comes into play. Unless there is a precedent supporting changing profiles and keeping upgrades from the previous profile that you'd like to mention? If not then I can only infer that the Pro-side assume Apothecary is both a Veteran and an Apothecary to maintain its upgrade. The digital Codex, admittedly still in beta, supports the Con-side as well.
The Ork FAQ is a very bad example to bring up. In one answer it supports that you cannot take choices in any order, then in another answer reverses that support. It is essential a precedent neutral document or does not support either side of the debate.
Con
Permissive rule set - It doesn't specifically say you can
precedent - Ork FAQ Digital Codex
precedent - Plague Zombies - Minus a single FAQ'd exception.
The permissive rule set lets you select options for the unit, its pg 158 of the printed codex. At no point does it instruct in the order these selections need to be taken and we are left to guess the intent of author. Also the plague zombies do not set any sort of precedent here. Nominating the unit to be zombies is not an option under the cultist army list entry and is irrelevant to the discussion of the order of options, further more zombies are specifically forbidden from having any options other then unit size. This specific restriction is not present in the unit being discused in this debate.
It would be like arguing a Terminator Captain gets a command squad, even though it has a different profile to the Captain and is not specifically listed in the allowed HQs under the command squad.
Yeah, and in fact that is a question that needs an FAQ answer. In the past a terminator captain might still have counted as a captain much the same way named tau commanders still counted as commanders. While I think, after looking it over, that the T.Cap was made a different unit instead of an upgrade option and then left out of the list specifically to prevent a t.cap from getting a command squad it needs to be addressed because once again we are now guessing at intent.
The ipad codex thing might only be in beta, but a base understanding of how programming works and what people have described the app doing its quite clear the intent of the programmer is to limit these options. Trouble is we don't know if the intent of the programmer matches the intent of the author but we have to assume it does until we are told otherwise.
So, any one with an ipad codex want to check that out? Can you add a command squad if your only HQ is a terminator captain?
Edit: oh, thought of another question for the ipad check list. Can you give a single a chapter master the teeth of terra and the burning blade?
Bausk wrote: By 'continuing' to upgrade you are not being magically granted permission to apply one profiles options to another. No matter how you attempt to spin it.
But we don't apply options to different profiles.
We apply the options to the Veteran, than UPGRADE it to an Apothecary.
The Nob may take an option (we'll use that as the collective term for all upgrades and other options like profile swapping) to become a Painboy.
Just as a Veteran may take an option to change to an Apothecary, the profile is changed, Which Implies that he swaps all his Wargear for that of an Apothecary. In the same manner as a Nob becoming a Painboy.
You cannot use the same word for both since they work differently.
The Nob becomes a Painboy.
The Veteran is upgrades to an Apothecary.
Plague Zombies serve as a further precedent of a units model changing profile. They also serve as precedent that in order to gain a retroactive Option from a previous profile you need a specific exception.
I see you are under the impression that we have to upgrade it to an Apothecary before taking weapons.
And how is that a precedent?
Plague Zombies have a specific restriction.
That is actually a precedent that things without that specific restriction CAN do it.
Venerable Dreadnoughts have typically been a different listing or list as 'Any Deadnought' (something to that effect), would have to see the entry in the current CM Dex on that one. But the best reference I have to Venerable Dreads is the SW Dex which is a 5th ed dex, lists Vens as a different listing and is not very helpful when discussing the SM entry. So I'll get back to you when I see the entry and it's wording.
Zombies work for an order of operations as they change profiles, regardless of the order they cannot have any options aside from the exception. Point being that unless it's FAQ'd with a similar exception granting a model with a different profile to take another profiles options then I'm simply not buying the order of operations argument.
As to the TDA Captain; Seeing as it's clearly a different listing and every character, unique or not, that can take a command squad is listed in the command squads listing then it's a fair assumption it's intended. The reason, as I see it, is the lack of TDA command squad or options to upgrade to TDA. Being that it's more of a Dark Angel Death Wing thing, I believe they didn't want to detract from the DA Codex. It still doesn't stop a TDA Captain from leading the Terminators from the (admittedly over bloated) Elite section obviously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Essentially you're applying one Option 1 (Nob: Power Klaw/Cultist: MoN/Veteran: Plasma Gun) to Profile A (Nob/Cultist/Veteran), then using Option 2 to change to Profile B (Painboy/Plague Zombie/Apothecary) expecting that Option 1 is still valid for Profile B, even though Profile B has no permission to take Option 1. That's the assumed permission you're talking about yes?
The Ork Codex is two editions old and has slightly different wording to achieve the same result, good for you for pointing that out.
ah64pilot5 wrote: What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.
For me it was never about RAW. Clearly the RAW is a little vague and almost every argument here is really about RAI. Thanks to the ipad codex RAI is clear, and RAW is a lot less vague once you know the author's intent.
But then I go back to asking, what about those without the Ipad version of the codex? That can lead to two different interpretations of the same thing.
Also to previous, it never states anywhere in this specific codex, that the chap and apothecary are not veterans. The squad description states that all members are veterans. It then states that you can make one a champ and one an apothecary, but nowhere, in this codex, does it state what happens to their status as veterans. To me the simplest answer would be that since they started as such, and nothing specific and directly takes that away from them, that they would retain that status.
It's obvious that an Apothecary can't take special wargear because he is an Apothecary and no Veteran. For me all upgrades happens at the same time, there is no "I can take special weapon first and THEN upgrade to Apothecary" ... sounds like BSimho.
My gut feeling on the issue says that if there has been a 7+ page thread on trying to articulate subtle details to if it actually legal to upgrade an apothecary gives me the impression that it isn't. This would be remarkably easy to be settled by GW by simply stating in the errata "an apothecary may take..." and since there isn't I cant help but feel they don't want you to. As much as I would love to have an apothecary with a power weapon it just seems like you have to try too hard to "make" it legal
The Force Requisition tool in the enhanced digital codex comes to the rescue again (see thread on multiple chapter relics per special character) - it does not allow you to upgrade the weapons or add weapons to the apothecary. It blocks adding extra if you upgrade before adding weapons and it wipes out the upgrades if you kit out 5 veterans with special weapons and then upgrade one to an Apothecary. So that's the most official answer for now.
ah64pilot5 wrote: What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.
For me it was never about RAW. Clearly the RAW is a little vague and almost every argument here is really about RAI. Thanks to the ipad codex RAI is clear, and RAW is a lot less vague once you know the author's intent.
But then I go back to asking, what about those without the Ipad version of the codex? That can lead to two different interpretations of the same thing.
Also to previous, it never states anywhere in this specific codex, that the chap and apothecary are not veterans. The squad description states that all members are veterans. It then states that you can make one a champ and one an apothecary, but nowhere, in this codex, does it state what happens to their status as veterans. To me the simplest answer would be that since they started as such, and nothing specific and directly takes that away from them, that they would retain that status.
People like me with out the ipad codex can still learn from others what that book does and does not allow by coming here and asking. Sure GW should be handling this but they are not do a good job, its causing debates. Thing is now we have a way of getting inside GW's head on some of these issues. You can't believe the intent of the author was to allow version X of a codex to do something that version Y cannot do.
The issue with the veteran status is that its not a status. There are several different model profiles for the unit. Not all of them are veterans. by upgrade from one profile to another you stop being one thing and start being something 'better'.
Bausk wrote: Sorry, where dose it reverse that stance?
In the span of three questions
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a
Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power
klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in
which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap
(as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does notreceive a
shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa
instead.
This answer could mean you can take the options in any order.
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
This answer could mean you must take the options in the order presented.
Bausk wrote: Sorry, where dose it reverse that stance?
In the span of three questions
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a
Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power
klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in
which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap
(as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does notreceive a
shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa
instead.
This answer could mean you can take the options in any order.
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
This answer could mean you must take the options in the order presented.
How is that confusing? First question pertains to wargear options withing the unit. Second pertains to a profile option having access to the previous profiles wargear options.
Bausk wrote: Sorry, where dose it reverse that stance?
In the span of three questions
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a
Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power
klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in
which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap
(as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does notreceive a
shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa
instead.
This answer could mean you can take the options in any order.
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
This answer could mean you must take the options in the order presented.
How is that confusing? First question pertains to wargear options withing the unit. Second pertains to a profile option having access to the previous profiles wargear options.
The two statements I made earlier, highlighted for you here, are mutely exclusive. They are also both reasonable interpretations of the facts at hand. When you have two mutely exclusive reasonable interpretations things tend to be confusing.
This has nothing to do with order of upgrades; you can take upgrades in any order, but no model may end up with an option it couldn't purchase. The Ork FAQ is perfectly logical in this regard. Shoota option affects entire mob, so it affects the Nob too if he has correct gear for the trade. You however couldn't give one or Rokkit Launcha and then upgrade that ork into a Nob.
I'm not sure why this is so hard. It has been like this pretty much forever. You have never been able to give special/heavies to upgrade characters.
Exactly my point Crimson. Unless there is a specific exception, as per the Plague Zombie FAQ. Order of operation has no bearing on the subject, it's simply that the model in question is no longer (but once was) a veteran. And as such it may never have an option that a veteran may take.
It is perfectly legal to give the Nob the rokkit launcha as you may give it to any ork, and the Nob is still an ork.
Damn, you're apparently right. Orks are weird.
Actually working example: you couldn't give a Kabalite Warrior Dark Lance and then upgrade him into a Sybarite.
In any case, the order of upgrades is not the issue here, merely that model cannot have upgrades it is not eligible for.
about the original post. It seems quite simple to me. On page 88 of C:SM it lists the wargear of an apothecary (bolt pistol and chain sword etc) so when you upgrade that's what you get.
Then after that you can't take any veteran options as your an apothecary that has a separate stat line.
Andram wrote: about the original post. It seems quite simple to me. On page 88 of C:SM it lists the wargear of an apothecary (bolt pistol and chain sword etc) so when you upgrade that's what you get.
Same equipment as the Veteran entry above :(, (except narthecium), do's this mean you can't give a veteran any upg
rades?
)
) it seems clear that the limitations on the Painboy are specific caveats, not a blanket restriction on sequential upgrades in general.
)
(Add sarcasm)
