Do you allow proxies to be used in your games? Do you allow your opponent to use proxies? If so why? Or why not?

When I play with my friends in our groups we proxy quite a bit, just like different weapons on models not anything crazy,

like if my friend has a riptide modelled with HBC and wants to use it as an IA then thats all good,
but if the guy doesnt own a riptide at all, then no we dont substitute out a completely different model

that being said... if a brand new model comes out and we are playing a friendly game we will do that to see if its worth buying

Other manufacturer models to rep expensive models, or the official model really doesn't suit your army and another model of equivalent size does ? Sure.

'All my meltas are now flamers' - ok, but i'll not be impressed.

'this armless marine is really a Centurion, but this identical one is a chaplain...' - No.

I have no problem with wargear stuff, just make sure I know who/what. Recently I used a Jump Capt. as a Jump Chaplain testing the Chaplain out. Now...to kit bash me one

Yup mostly its been wargear thats proxied.
(Special weapons on tactical marines are gravguns, power swords are all axes)

I do it, and our gaming crowd is quite lenient about it. No one abuses it though unlike from what I've heard (an empty monstrous base as riptide is one of the worst ones i've read). For the longest time I ran stormravens as talons because i hate the flying guppy look (someone showed me a good conversion though so i bought 2 and did a gunship conversion which i like).
For thunderfires i didnt want to waste money on getting new TFC boxes when I already had the techmarines, so i use the mantic jotunn quad guns and i actually like their aesthetics more.

Often enough when someone plays a proxy game and decides he likes the changes, you will see them working on getting the proper models/gear soon enough.


If someday someone comes to me for a game with proxies, and proxies somethin like a screamstar or waac tau list with empty bases will be the day i say no to proxies.

I've proxied myself, I wanted to test out Biovores but didn't have any, so my opponent let me use a unit of Warriors as Biovores. I still proxy semicircles of foam as Mycetic Spores, as they don't have a model and I don't want to go through the trouble of converting 5 Mycetic Spores when rumours say it will be getting a model next year. Ultimately, as long as it's clear what you're proxying (I wouldn't have proxied Warriors for Biovores if I ran any actual Warriors), if you're proxying a whole model the proxy is a similar shape and size to the original, and you don't overdo the number of proxies in your army, you should do fine.
Also, this is relelvant:

Definitely allow them. I'm very guilty of using proxies myself. For a while since the Eldar codex came out, I've been using a friend's flyer base as my WK. Wraithknight is a very expensive model, I wasn't going to buy him if it didn't suit my playstyle. It turned out that it did and I bought him recently.

I wouldn't mind guardsmen being used as Eldar Guardians, for instance, but only if my opponent doesn't use other IG guardsmen models as something else. Cos then the game loses a lot of its charm, if I have to constantly be reminded of what's what.

I use proxies as I've been playing for a few years and due to edition changes some wargear options are no longer viable. Unfortunately I do not have the time nor money to update my army.

Perfect example, when I first started playing Nids, Termagants had to buy a weapon. So I gave them all Spinefists to keep them cheap as possible. Then the new codex comes out and they come with a Fleshborer standard and Spinefists are an upgrade (a crappy one at that). So, I now run all my Termagants as stock regardless of what is actually modeled.

On the whole, I will avoid using proxies myself at all costs, in the same way I always try to play everything painted. When it comes to my opponent, it depends on what they want. If they want to use some GL as meltas, or AC as LC, then fine so long as it's a one off, but if it's something like 'this clear base is a C'tan' (I've actually seen this done) then I'm generally against it. It does ruin the immersion somewhat.

Where I will make an exception is if I know the player would otherwise have a very limited army time after time, then I'll let them change it up for the sake of variety.

To add on to what I said earlier, to make things easier for my opponent, I run identical units. So (for example), if I have 3 Tac squads they will all have the same special weapon and same heavy weapon so there is no confusion of "Which squad has the meltagun and which one has the plasmagun?" They either all have meltas or all have plasmas.

Yes i allow proxies.

GW models are too damn expensive to just willy nilly go out and buy, assemble and paint something that may sound great on paper, but fail on the table.

So proxies are a good way to test out ideas without committing with your wallet.



Also, some models are fugly. If someone wants to replace a fugly model with a nice one, as long as its reasonably easy for me to tell what it is, no problem. If it's converted in such a way that it's basically impossible to mis-identify, then I won't bat an eyelash.

I'll also give a bit of leeway with "Hey this squad has two plasma guns, one is actually a melta, he's the one with the scrap of paper hanging over his head that says "Imma Meltagun". I don't mind a couple models, maybe even a handful... if it's more than a handful, let's play a smaller game so you don't have to proxy so much.

Most of my Ork proxies are hardly noticeable; Warbiker as Nob Warbiker, Big Shoota as a Loota, Slugga Boy as Shoota Boy.

And to be honest I don't pay that much attention to the weapon modelling of my opponents figures. Personally I'd rather see an awesome looking army, and it's too expensive to own every option for an army.

Besides, it up to the individual what their army looks like. I personally don't want to play 40K against cardboard counters, but generally I really don't mind that much about proxies.

Just to clarify my earlier point, I am fine with almost ANY conversion or counts-as (different model/manufacturer). Mantic IG or Anvil marines? Go for it. (I have both, actually)

My only issue is when something literally one model acting as another (eg necron warriour counts as lychguard/tac marine counts as Vanguard veteran), or if one type of model counts as 2 different things. To use the examples above, Big Shoota= Loota or warbiker= nob are fine, it's when you get into the territory of 'That DK I borrowed is a riptide' or 'That leman russ is a manticore, but that one is a hellhound' that I don't like it. And even then, I'll still play, I just would prefer to play against models that are what they are.

 Ugavine wrote:
Most of my Ork proxies are hardly noticeable; Warbiker as Nob Warbiker, Big Shoota as a Loota, Slugga Boy as Shoota Boy.

I do exactly the same thing with my orks, warbikers with nob wargear, all my 5th ed slugga boyz are now shoota boyz,..

Some time ago i did a proxybattle with a friend. he had around 600 pts of nids, and wants to expand so we tested some lists of 1850 pts before actually buying the units.
We did it this way and it was very clear. First line of the squad genestealers were the GW model, rest of the squad little coins. If the first models die, we removed second line "coin units" and moved the GW models back.
His Iphone was a second termi, and so on.

It was a great way to test before buy, and he had enough units to field all the squads he wanted.

We had this thread a few weeks ago, didn't we? You'll get lots of opinions if you check back a few pages in the forum index.

Doesn't it also depend on the proxy?

Usually I don't have a big problem with people proxying different ICs and stuff. But proxying so that you can spam a unit that otherwise is sort of limited by the fact that it's very expensive and most people don't want to spend the money...that's pretty lame.

Sorry, I don't want to play against your 5 Riptide list, when not a single one of them is actually a Riptide, any more than you want to play against my 9 Vendetta list comprised entirely of paper airplanes.

The reason why I posted this was because I had one game that was total bs. And before I get into detail about it this was a guy that I just met, not a friendly laissez-faire kind of deal. I always play competitively but still try to have fun with my games but this guy said two of his space marine squads had grav guns (when they completely didn't) and made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers? I thought afterwards: this guy totally cheated.... unquestionably. He not only proxied half his army but tailored his list at the same time. This is why I'm making it a new policy of mine: NO PROXIES!!! If I find a guy has proxies from now on I'm probably going to say something like: play someone else please. The question I find myself asking is: how do you say it politely?

The issue isn't proxies. The issue is that you allowed him to tailor his list to you as you spoon-fed him the details of your army.

When someone tries to build a list right in front of me, I give them as much useless information as possible:
Do you have Flyers? I have 10 models with wings.
Do you have vehicles? I have something that costs as much as a Land Raider.

It's not my fault if they misinterpret my information and bring Lance weapons and anti-air against a Tyranid list with 10 Gargoyles and a Tyrannofex.

Pretty happy with most stuff but then seldom play tournaments.....

Yes I use proxies.
1) GW models are expensive as hell
2) I play many factions and I like to test stuff
3) some GW models are horrendous

Yeah I do, and I let other people do to. As long as it's not a standart thing. I usually do it to try out new things for an army before buying and build/paint it.

I proxy similar units as stand in's for fluff reasons.

For example my IG force is Mechanicus based and as such I don't use Ogryns models, however I do have some FW Thallax Cohort to proxy them. They are on the same base and the same size and fit in.

Dont mind people proxying stuff as long as its not stupid like this wraith guard is a wraith knight.

I have two rules when it comes to proxying:
1. It must be on the same base as the model and must be approximately the same size.
2. All models/wargear must be the same. If using DA as Guardians, then all DA must be Guardians. If using Plasma Cannons as Heavy Bolters in a Tac squad then all Plasma cannons in Tac squads must be Heavy Bolters.

That's not a problem with proxies, that's a problem with the TFG attitude of the guy you played.

My opponents more often than not have a list ready. And before we start the game, we always ask each other exactly what each of our unit has. My replies are usually simple.

This unit of Windrider jetbikes has 9 S6 Bladestorm shots(here I explain what Bladestorm does, so they know to be careful with their low-armour save or high toughness units around units with that rule) and 12 TL S4 Bladestorm shots, at range 24" and 12" respectivelly.

That Wraightknight has 2 S10 shots. Even though I don't actually have arms glued on atm, cos I'm waiting to magnetise them. So everything is perfectly clear and set in stone from the get go.

Same thing if I'm proxying something. This shoe here is a Wave Serpent and it has this this and that. Same as if it was actually a Wave Serpent.

So this has absolutely nothing to do with proxying. After all, proxying didn't convince him to cheat, but rather he used it as a convenient tool to cheat with. But with the above examples, that tool can be taken from him and anyone else who tries to pull that one off on you again.

I think the outcome of the game and your attitude towards it would have been the exact same if the guy had the correct models or not. I mean if he did the same thing of writing a list and pulling out models for every question he asked it still would have the same problem. Then you could probably justify the hatred and say you'll never play grav-guns or C: SM again.

Now there is some wiggle room, I'd imagine. Was he actually tailoring his list specifically to you or was he unsure of the meta? If I was in a new area I'd probably ask around if mech lists or flier heavy lists were popular, same basic questioning but the goal is to understand the meta and not win a specific game.

Do I allow proxies?

Within reason, yes. This is the hard part. What is reasonable?

A model that is scratchbuilt/converted and looks "close enough" to be the actual unit? Yes. A dragon model converted with armour plating and symbols used as a Chaoschicken? Yes - because the GW one is uglier than a hatful of ****holes.

A voltron toy unmodified and still in its garish 70s paint scheme? Not a chance in hell, chucklehead!

X weapon = Y weapon? Only if ALL of X are Y. If you have some X=Y and some X=X, you can play someone else.

I came into 40k when RT was the game, and you HAD to either proxy or "count X as Y" because they just DIDN'T have the models for it (or artwork, in many cases). After so many years of doing this, it becomes normal.

Even now, I'm not opposed to it - GW might come out with the official models, but some of them look like stuff out of GI Joe or pokeyermom.

I think you're confusing proxy and counts-as, chromedog.

I don't think so.

A proxy is using something as something else. Big armoured dragon model as hellchicken.

A counts-as is using something as something else. Blue marines playing as Red marines - whether or not they have dragons or hellchickens.

1) If someone wants to test stuff he should you vassal
2) All armies should be WYSIWYG and legal as far local tournaments goes . So if locals say no non GW models then those are not allowed.
3) Replacing a model with something that costs half or less what the normal costs , is seen as bad.


This is the rules we have here.

There are also some double standards out there - I am not sure what its like in the 40k scene but I personally know at least one high ranking WFB tournament player who uses proxies in tournaments and much worse in friendly games - usually whatever models gets chucked in a box for the latter. The stuff that "lesser players" get picked up on.............

I don't really care what my opponent uses as long as its fairly clear what its supposed to be - I'd far rather play a load of cool conversions or unusual models I have not seen than a load of unpainted models that are not even put together.

I use them once in a blue moon. I don't mind opponents using them, as long as I know what's going on and it's a fairly close match model-wise.

Makumba wrote:
1) If someone wants to test stuff he should you vassal
2) All armies should be WYSIWYG and legal as far local tournaments goes . So if locals say no non GW models then those are not allowed.
3) Replacing a model with something that costs half or less what the normal costs , is seen as bad.

1) I don´t know how to use Vassal. I will like to learn, though.
2) Most people do not go to tournaments. This is supposed to be a friendly game, with house rules, custom made campaigns and the like being actively advocated by GW itself. Also, some tournaments (most that I know) allow proxies as long as it is clear what do they represent.
3) Why? I´d rather see an impressive, awesome, high-quality, cheaper model than a lame, ugly as hell, low-quality GW model that costs twice.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
The reason why I posted this was because I had one game that was total bs. And before I get into detail about it this was a guy that I just met, not a friendly laissez-faire kind of deal. I always play competitively but still try to have fun with my games but this guy said two of his space marine squads had grav guns (when they completely didn't) and made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers? I thought afterwards: this guy totally cheated.... unquestionably. He not only proxied half his army but tailored his list at the same time. This is why I'm making it a new policy of mine: NO PROXIES!!! If I find a guy has proxies from now on I'm probably going to say something like: play someone else please. The question I find myself asking is: how do you say it politely?

A a matter of courtesy I don't proxy if playing a new player, and from reading these forums some players really do need to have a little more respect for their opponents. I can fully understand not wanting to play against proxies if your opponent is doing it to be a jerk.

 Ugavine wrote:

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
The reason why I posted this was because I had one game that was total bs. And before I get into detail about it this was a guy that I just met, not a friendly laissez-faire kind of deal. I always play competitively but still try to have fun with my games but this guy said two of his space marine squads had grav guns (when they completely didn't) and made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers? I thought afterwards: this guy totally cheated.... unquestionably. He not only proxied half his army but tailored his list at the same time. This is why I'm making it a new policy of mine: NO PROXIES!!! If I find a guy has proxies from now on I'm probably going to say something like: play someone else please. The question I find myself asking is: how do you say it politely?

A a matter of courtesy I don't proxy if playing a new player, and from reading these forums some players really do need to have a little more respect for their opponents. I can fully understand not wanting to play against proxies if your opponent is doing it to be a jerk.

But then again.... what´s the point of playing against a jerk?

Player 1: hi, I am a jerk. Ha ha what a pathetic army you have! Do you want to be defeated by me? I am such a good player.
Player 2: do you use proxies?
Player 1: no. You look dumb. I haven´t got a codex, but my bolters are S6.
Player 2: ok then.

The problem was not caused by the use of proxies. He was list-tailoring you on the go (and being a jerk).

" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

I don't mind them using proxies, but I'd prefer to play against fully painted WYSIWYG armies.

Conversions? All is cool.

2) Most people do not go to tournaments. This is supposed to be a friendly game, with house rules, custom made campaigns and the like being actively advocated by GW itself. Also, some tournaments (most that I know) allow proxies as long as it is clear what do they represent.

but tournaments use the same rules as normal games and the armies are identical . there is no casual rule set in the rule book.

3) Why? I´d rather see an impressive, awesome, high-quality, cheaper model than a lame, ugly as hell, low-quality GW model that costs twice.

As I said that cost half what normal stuff costs , ordering or buying pre made stuff from modeling studios costs more then GW stuff , so is ok. But most of times proxies mean trying to pass old milk cartons as tanks and paint cans as drop pods.

I find that many people in casual friendly games are not as bothered about every single naunce of the rules and how it can be best manipulated as the very many RAW debates on this forum seem to be all about.

I totally agree about the bits of trash being a bit over the top but depends on the group - some people just want to play a game and roll the dice - try stuff out...............if they are all happy its good.

These days I think its more of problem that so many players don't have their own codexes - and its often the more competative ones - It would solve alot of arguments just by "Cool, thats nasty, can I see that as I had not heard that rule before" or similar.

Makumba wrote:

2) Most people do not go to tournaments. This is supposed to be a friendly game, with house rules, custom made campaigns and the like being actively advocated by GW itself. Also, some tournaments (most that I know) allow proxies as long as it is clear what do they represent.

but tournaments use the same rules as normal games and the armies are identical . there is no casual rule set in the rule book.

3) Why? I´d rather see an impressive, awesome, high-quality, cheaper model than a lame, ugly as hell, low-quality GW model that costs twice.

As I said that cost half what normal stuff costs , ordering or buying pre made stuff from modeling studios costs more then GW stuff , so is ok. But most of times proxies mean trying to pass old milk cartons as tanks and paint cans as drop pods.

2) I would say that the entire rule book is a "casual rule set". Players are invited to change things. And I am not sure about tournaments going by the book. Most of them change things, especially stuff like random terrain or random objectives. And many accept models from different companies or conversions as long as they look fine.
3) ok I get your point. I will not like an old milk carton as a tank, and if the army is composed of stuff like this, I will not play. It must look good on the table. "The Rule of Cool" applies here.

We normally play completely WYSIWYG, with three exceptions.


1) Broken or unfinished models. Obviously we all want to play with and against awesome-looking armies, but hey, it's a game.

2) New stuff. If someone wants to try something out once or twice before buying it, that's cool, too.

3) Rule of cool. Sometimes an ambiguous conversion looks way better than an official model. Ork Buggies, I am looking in your direction....


This doesn't include obvious cases where there's just no other option, such as when the model does not exist, or in the case of small wargear items (e.g. - grenades, pistols).

 kronk wrote:
" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

It wasn't just that he tailored his list right in front of me, in that same game his team of grav gunners killed half my battle suit command squad in one turn. That just isn't fair!

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

You have the same ability.
You do not use them, but you can use proxies, especially if your opponents do it too.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:

 kronk wrote:
" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

It wasn't just that he tailored his list right in front of me, in that same game his team of grav gunners killed half my battle suit command squad in one turn. That just isn't fair!

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

So it'd be totally fair if he happened to have the models for the grav gunners? You're just privileging people that have more time and money to build more extensive collections. If you want to hold yourself to that standard then go right ahead, but if you're requiring that of anyone that you want to play a game with, you're just being childish.

 Happyjew wrote:
I have two rules when it comes to proxying:
1. It must be on the same base as the model and must be approximately the same size.
2. All models/wargear must be the same. If using DA as Guardians, then all DA must be Guardians. If using Plasma Cannons as Heavy Bolters in a Tac squad then all Plasma cannons in Tac squads must be Heavy Bolters.

+1. I use the same rules regarding proxies.

In many games I've played, we ended up with both sides just having lots of appropriately sized flags on bases, but since it was clear, it worked fine.

 Talore wrote:

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:

 kronk wrote:
" made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers?"

That's the real problem. He tailored his list for your exact army list. I wouldn't play him again for this reason.

If you make a blanket "No Proxies, No Exceptions" list, you might miss out on some games with cool people. For similar reasons, I dropped my "No chubbies allowed" rule in college and found out that they try harder...

It wasn't just that he tailored his list right in front of me, in that same game his team of grav gunners killed half my battle suit command squad in one turn. That just isn't fair!

Here is how I see it, I never play proxies, I always play with what I have, why should I let my opponents have an unlimited supply of units when I don't have that same ability? I just don't think it is right is all.

So it'd be totally fair if he happened to have the models for the grav gunners? You're just privileging people that have more time and money to build more extensive collections. If you want to hold yourself to that standard then go right ahead, but if you're requiring that of anyone that you want to play a game with, you're just being childish.

I wouldn't be posting this if he used real grav gunners, and it would be fair if he had them, but he didn't. Privileging people? More like trying to weed them out so I can play a fair game. How am I being childish? I learned a long time ago that cheating doesn't make the game fun, or give you any satisfaction, understanding the game does. I would rather play a different opponent than take on someone that doesn't want to play the game by the rules.

Cadre, would it bother you if I brought out my army (list before hand) and said "A is B, and x is Y"?

Being new to 40K I find proxies confusing. My question is how do people remember what is what?
With a lot of models on the field I have a hard time keeping everything in my own army straight.
With proxies I have to keep track of my opponents models as well, I guess that is my problem with proxies.

I have not been playing for very long so I may come to realize proxies are good.

 Warboss Gobslag wrote:

Being new to 40K I find proxies confusing. My question is how do people remember what is what?
With a lot of models on the field I have a hard time keeping everything in my own army straight.
With proxies I have to keep track of my opponents models as well, I guess that is my problem with proxies.

I have not been playing for very long so I may come to realize proxies are good.

You'll get better with time. After a few games you know what your army does, and after maybe 10 against a few different opponents you have a reasonable idea of how most of the standard units and weapons in the game work. Once you're more comfortable with the game and models, you can afford to give more attention to remembering proxies (at least, that's how it worked for me).

That said, a proxy shouldn't be very difficult to keep track of in the first place. There's a limit to what is reasonable...

A minimum of proxy is ok. For example two or three models that you dont have or a weapon that isnt modeled for same. Now when someone takes an ork army and says theyre space wolves or something the like then no. Seen it once. Twas ridiculous.

I wouldn't mind playing against an Orks as Space Wolves army, as long as they were modelled with skins and rode squigs into battle. You could call them the Space Squigs, with Squig Lords, Thundersquig Cavalry, Lone Squigs, Weirdboyz wearing Squig Talismans... I suddenly really want to play this army.

 Happyjew wrote:
Cadre, would it bother you if I brought out my army (list before hand) and said "A is B, and x is Y"?

Yes.

I do not use them ever. I let others use them but I complain about it.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:


I wouldn't be posting this if he used real grav gunners, and it would be fair if he had them, but he didn't. Privileging people? More like trying to weed them out so I can play a fair game. How am I being childish? I learned a long time ago that cheating doesn't make the game fun, or give you any satisfaction, understanding the game does. I would rather play a different opponent than take on someone that doesn't want to play the game by the rules.

I don't really understand how you think this is "cheating". With the exception of True Line of Sight, which didn't even exist until recently in 40k's development (and has numerous, numerous caveats, abstractions, and exceptions), the models have basically no role in the game from a mechanical perspective. Certainly, it's nice to see cool models on the table - that's the point after all. As far as the game is concerned, however, the visual of the model almost doesn't matter. That's why we have all the amazing conversions; if the model mattered, we would all have to use identical models for everything.

I feel like tethering your list to extreme WYSIWYG is pretty unreasonable. Nobody can be expected to have every variation of every model in their whole codex. Proxying and Counts-As allows for a greater freedom of list-building and thus greater game diversity. Some of my best and most interesting games have been conducted almost entirely with flags-on-bases. My opponents and I were able to experiment with numerous matchups of units, lists, and even whole codices in the time it would have taken a normal player to build up a single army.

You're free to play however you want; nobody's going to force you one way or the other. But sticking only to what you physically own seems like the game would get boring faster than if you could play around with all the things 40k has to offer.

I disagree with the sentiment underlying this statement. I think that's the core of the disagreement and I know which side I am on. The argument is essentially...

A: I should be able to proxy because the models don't really matter that much, and how could I be expected to have every model with every configuration?
vs.
B: I don't like proxies because excessive list tailoring is not fun to play against, and good-looking models mean a lot to me.

The argument won't ever die because extremists in group B don't care that people from group A don't get to field every configuration. And extremists from group A don't care if they are killing the aesthetic pleasure of the game for people from group B.

I'm in group B (except for the exceptions I mentioned before), but don't consider myself an extremist. I'd play against anyone as long as they are a courteous and fun opponent. I'd prefer to play, and seek out, someone who is more like myself. I'd rather field a cool-looking squad that's well thought out than proxy something.


Also, magnets?

Magnetizing everything still requires appropriate bitz, which not every box has. I'm pretty lucky that I get enough Nemesis weapons for all my GK, but other armies not so much. With GW shutting down bitz resellers left and right, it's becoming harder and more expensive to try and do this. It's still worthwhile on larger models, but magnetizing dozens of infantry is time consuming and inefficient.

I'm not saying I demand everyone to accept proxies; quite the opposite in fact. I usually prefer to play with real models. But to paint everyone who proxies as some sort of "cheater" out to "game the system" is a patently false and unfair assumption.

Besides, proxying and list tailoring are extremely different behaviors. Looking at your opponent's list and suddenly deciding "oh actually all my meltaguns are flamers, now that I see you're playing a horde army" is a dick move by anyone's standards. This is very different from saying, "Hey the list I designed earlier this week uses some bikes with grav-guns. Since I haven't received my models yet, could I proxy with these Ravenwing Black Knights in their place?"

How about "hey, I started playing Tyranids in 4th, so my 60 Termagants all have Spinefists instead of Fleshborers. Do you mind if I proxy them for Fleshborers?" Would anyone actually refuse to play this person until they bought another 60 Termagants and built them with Fleshborers?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How about "hey, I started playing Tyranids in 4th, so my 60 Termagants all have Spinefists instead of Fleshborers. Do you mind if I proxy them for Fleshborers?" Would anyone actually refuse to play this person until they bought another 60 Termagants and built them with Fleshborers?

I wouldn't as most of my Termagants are armed with Spinefists having started with the 4th edition codex.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How about "hey, I started playing Tyranids in 4th, so my 60 Termagants all have Spinefists instead of Fleshborers. Do you mind if I proxy them for Fleshborers?" Would anyone actually refuse to play this person until they bought another 60 Termagants and built them with Fleshborers?

Yes.
If you keep asking, you will eventually find someone who finds it outrageous.

Human nature.

I prefer to play with, and against, fully painted WYSIWYG armies where everything is what it should be. It makes the game go smoothly, means you can tell at a glance what each unit has, and avoids any confusion on both sides of the board.

Proxies i do like, especially when they are well executed. one of the most spectacular ones i've seen is a pair of Nurgle Hell turkeys converted from Vampire counts Zombie dragons, complete with trailing entrails as the flying stand. Its obviously NOT the 'official' hell turkey model, but certainly looks cool.

Counts-as, i'm not too keen on, but i'm not against them. Its better if you keep them relatively simple and straight forward. Just after the new C:SM book dropped, having not had time to assemble, let alone paint the new Dev centurions to go in my IF army, i asked nicely if i could use some old broadsides as 'counts as' and since it was a friendly match, no-one objected. If i had continued to use the broadsides as counts as i could see some feathers ruffled. but thats more down to the fact that my group and i like to see painted unified armies. we wont flat out refuse to play against tinboyz, but we do request they make at least some effort

In tournaments, unless you have some special dispensation from the TO, you will be out of luck if your army isn't WYSIWYG, and proxies, such as the above mentioned Hell turkeys have to be given the green light (there has never been a problem, since its obvious what they are) and counts-as is totally out, again, unless you are given dispensation by the TO.

Just how far you will be allowed to (ab)use proxies and counts-as depends entirely on your local group, and of course whether you play in a FLGS, a club, or a GW store.

madtankbloke, I found your post really confusing to read until I realised you had switched up the meanings for counts-as and proxies.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
madtankbloke, I found your post really confusing to read until I realised you had switched up the meanings for counts-as and proxies.

A proxy is a substitute

Counts-as is using something to represent something else.

the meanings are very similar really, and are often used interchangeably

I use proxies when trying new list ideas.

Back in 5th edition, I was running a list with a CL, 2 units of 5 CSM, and 33 spawn. I had 8 spawn models and made up the difference with daemons and bases with no models. It did not look pretty, but did allow me to figure out how that list actually worked.

I go with these definitions:
proxy = substituting either something that already has rules in the game or some random object (this beer bottle is a drop pod)
Counts-as = Using an alternate model/piece of wargear that isn't an actual model in the game (converted, scratch built, third party, etc).
The difference being between "I know these look like Dark Angels, but they're proxying for White Scars" and "This is my homebrew chapter, the Space Kittens, they're counts-as Space Wolves".

We proxy a lot. Some of our meta have full counts as & proxy army. I have 2d cardboard cut for a DE venom, which is mounted on sprue and and pringle lid for the base. I painted the cardboard top view to look like a venom (Badly, I mean it took me 3 mins max)

With that creativity, who can say no?


But no one really minds as long as they are no one goes overboard with general size and area.

Ugin, the Owl King wrote:I disagree with the sentiment underlying this statement. I think that's the core of the disagreement and I know which side I am on. The argument is essentially...

A: I should be able to proxy because the models don't really matter that much, and how could I be expected to have every model with every configuration?
vs.
B: I don't like proxies because excessive list tailoring is not fun to play against, and good-looking models mean a lot to me.

The argument won't ever die because extremists in group B don't care that people from group A don't get to field every configuration. And extremists from group A don't care if they are killing the aesthetic pleasure of the game for people from group B.

I'm in group B (except for the exceptions I mentioned before), but don't consider myself an extremist. I'd play against anyone as long as they are a courteous and fun opponent. I'd prefer to play, and seek out, someone who is more like myself. I'd rather field a cool-looking squad that's well thought out than proxy something.


Also, magnets?

Spoiler:

Xca|iber wrote:Magnetizing everything still requires appropriate bitz, which not every box has. I'm pretty lucky that I get enough Nemesis weapons for all my GK, but other armies not so much. With GW shutting down bitz resellers left and right, it's becoming harder and more expensive to try and do this. It's still worthwhile on larger models, but magnetizing dozens of infantry is time consuming and inefficient.

I'm not saying I demand everyone to accept proxies; quite the opposite in fact. I usually prefer to play with real models. But to paint everyone who proxies as some sort of "cheater" out to "game the system" is a patently false and unfair assumption.

Besides, proxying and list tailoring are extremely different behaviors. Looking at your opponent's list and suddenly deciding "oh actually all my meltaguns are flamers, now that I see you're playing a horde army" is a dick move by anyone's standards. This is very different from saying, "Hey the list I designed earlier this week uses some bikes with grav-guns. Since I haven't received my models yet, could I proxy with these Ravenwing Black Knights in their place?"

You two have fair points. I think this argument is divided between two opposite polar groups, one being the relaxed, anything goes type of group, and the "extremist" strictly by the books group. Then I think it boils down to friendly versus competitive games which I don't really want to get in to right now. Magnets. Magnets are interesting and it seems like a lot of people are using them currently, I haven't but I think they are legitimate as long as you don't use them to tailor your list once you know what your opponent is fielding. Xcalibur I see you made a good point about my assumption and I think your right, I didn't mean to label everyone who proxies as some sort of cheater but it has been too long for me letting it slide and to me it is almost like they cheated to me.

I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

People can proxy anything they like. I've fought against units of pennies before and it was just fine.

Playing always beats not playing.

If you check my sig you'll see what my Blood Angels look like. Or to save time- the youngest model in the army is from 1990. I try to use a) everything painted b) everything as exactly what it is. I'll never have centurions or some of the other new stuff (in this army at least) but such is the way of it. That's my choice.

That said I have no problem with proxies. You can't always get what you want and sometimes you want to try something out before you spend $$. So long as it's clear (or just a friendly) I can't see how it matters.

I have no problem with anyone proxying a model they actually own, but which happens to be broken/missing/in disrepair.

I have no problem with my opponent proxying something in a friendly game, provided it's clear what it is.

I will proxy something if I want to see how it plays, to get an idea of how something works before I buy it. I like weird combinations that aren't popular, and sometimes I find that they don't work. (Sometimes they DO!)

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

This is how it should be done if we were talking about a video game or something.

But models are... awfully expensive. And they take a lot of time and work. And "wait for the next edition" only works if you play marines. Dark Eldars or Necrons have been over a decade without new rules, and Necrons were completely redone. And then you have the Sisters or the Lost and the Damned. "Wait until it gets fixed" is not a valid solution.

Trying something before getting committed should be considered the norm, and not frowned upon. If you are rich enough to get everything WYSIWYG, do not get mad at people using proxies or count as. Instead, be happy you are rich.

 Happyjew wrote:


So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

That's a good point. I wouldn't have a problem with a weapon proxy, it was more along the lines of using completely different models to represent other things that confuses me and which i disagree with. I've certainly used models with weapons before as if they didn't have that weapon because I hadn't gotten around to removing it before the game.

It's the 'This Dread Knight is a Riptide' proxy situation that I was referring to, which happens quite a bit while people are testing out different allies to use with their main army. I'm not a fan of it, but I play the game for its visual appeal so of course it's just my opinion.

Personally I don't. I play WYSIWYG as much as humanly possible (with the exception of vehicle upgrades - some of my vehicles have Storm Bolters which I don't buy). I'll even not field something if I don't have the right model for it, even if to do so puts me at a disadvantage. I even do that in the 40K RPG's. And Necromunda. Don't have a Deathwatch model with a Combi-Plasma and a Power Sword? I won't make a character with that combination. My Delaque's would be better off with another Lasgun but I'm using all my Delaque Lasgun models already (but not my Autoguns?), then I'll take an Autogun.

Weirdly it makes me less interested in 40K. When I get told that a "need" a Thunderfire Cannon and a Hunter, or more Bikes, my response is always "No.".

I use proxies myself, so of course I allow it.

I've got about 2000 points worth of Space Marines. Not a single one of them (except the four drop pods) are GW make. I use some GW weapons so that I can present a coherent and recognisable wargear selection to my opponent. The models I use are intended as the final army and not as a trial or stepping stone.

For proxies I hold a lion's share of these self-imposed limitations as mandatory, although one of my friends has it as mandatory that as few as possible of his models should actually make sense. A Tau Firewarrior is obviously a Mandrake!

My army is made up of Scibor Marines. The bulk of the army are tactical marines which use Celtic Veteran models. Most elite models use Lion shoulder pads with Spartans being devastators and Romans being terminators. Egyptians make for one-off models such as Lone Wolves. I play them as either Space Wolves or Dark Angels, where I can field a large point value in Space Wolves, mostly due to larger number of HQ, Lone Wolves and Thunder Bear Cavalry. Each model is about 25% larger than the GW equivalent except for Bjorn Fellhand who laughs at puny Riptides and is about 125% larger than a dreadnought.

Suffice to say, I struggle to get cover saves.

Sure, we proxy all the time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Personally I don't. I play WYSIWYG as much as humanly possible (with the exception of vehicle upgrades - some of my vehicles have Storm Bolters which I don't buy). I'll even not field something if I don't have the right model for it, even if to do so puts me at a disadvantage. I even do that in the 40K RPG's. And Necromunda. Don't have a Deathwatch model with a Combi-Plasma and a Power Sword? I won't make a character with that combination. My Delaque's would be better off with another Lasgun but I'm using all my Delaque Lasgun models already (but not my Autoguns?), then I'll take an Autogun.

Weirdly it makes me less interested in 40K. When I get told that a "need" a Thunderfire Cannon and a Hunter, or more Bikes, my response is always "No.".

Me too. I buy models I like the look of, then use them. The only proxying I do is when I can't use the model as-is - for example the fat 2nd edition Cadian lieutenant. I'd prefer to simply pay 2 points and give him a shotgun, but that's not in the army list. If my opponent insists, I'll use it as a boltgun instead.

To try new lists/armies I say go for it (for instance, if you are a sm player and are thinking about trying tau), but keep it consistent (don't try bolter joe 1 actually has a HB, and bolter joe 2 is in fact your captain)

In our club, gear proxies are often allowed to be tried and tinkered with for quite some time. Now if you've been playing the same army for a year and haven't yet put a Meltagun on that guy you've fielded instead of a Bolter of a different color...come on now.

We also allow proxies for new models for testing, but again...timing is everything. If you keep doing it in such a way that you obviously should just buy the model....it is courtesy to get the model if you can.

Bring an Optimus Prime Pinata with paper towel rolls attached to it for weapons and try to pretend it is a Titan? Yes, we told that player go feth off.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
In our club, gear proxies are often allowed to be tried and tinkered with for quite some time. Now if you've been playing the same army for a year and haven't yet put a Meltagun on that guy you've fielded instead of a Bolter of a different color...come on now.

We also allow proxies for new models for testing, but again...timing is everything. If you keep doing it in such a way that you obviously should just buy the model....it is courtesy to get the model if you can.

Bring an Optimus Prime Pinata with paper towel rolls attached to it for weapons and try to pretend it is a Titan? Yes, we told that player go feth off.

I agree with all of this, except I would allow the pinata, its just too damn funny

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Bring an Optimus Prime Pinata with paper towel rolls attached to it for weapons and try to pretend it is a Titan? Yes, we told that player go feth off.

Do you hate fun? Optimus Prime Pinata Titan sounds amazing.

"SMASH THE TITAN OF THE FALSE EMPEROR! IT HAS CANDY INSIDE! SWEETS FOR THE SWEET THRONE!"

I just got back into the hobby after a decade hiatus. A lot has changed since then, and rather than going out and buying something I may potentially not like for my Imperial Guard, my opponents have been gracious enough to let me proxy models and vehicles before spending the cash. Of course, I always ask permission first; it's a gentlemen's game after all.

Thus far, I haven't received any complaints (to my face...?) because I ensure the proxies are clearly defined afore the battle starts (always bring pen and paper!) and are similar in size to the model/unit being proxied. A Leman Russ Battle Tank model from 3rd edition is not that different from this edition's Punisher (barring the hilarious amount of dakka the Punisher can churn out). This allows me to try out different units and combinations without making a monetary investment, and we all know this hobby isn't exactly cheap. However, now that I've a dozen games under my belt, I tend to use proxies less and less because I know what I like and I've the funds to purchase them. Were the proxy and play test PBS fellows worth the eBay investment for the real deal? Totally.

So long as you secure your opponent's blessing beforehand, and are clear about what is what, I feel there isn't really a problem. Just be polite and sensible about it. And if they decline your use of proxies, oh well, write a new list. At the end of the day it's still just a game.

Hey we just had a game with King Kong ( a summoned Deamon embodiing the local primatives Beast God) versus Ork Stompa

Plus there are certain GW models I just don't want - Centurions for instance - I would far rather see proxies on the table than have to look at them.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Davor wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I think you should read the army list, decide what you want, build that model, then use it in a game. If it doesn't live up to your expectations, put the model in your collection and wait for the next edition. This is a hobby, not a competitive game, the rules are far too poor for that.

So what happens when you want one thing and then 4 months later the codex is redone and you no longer want that option due to new rules? Some people don't have the money to drop on an entirely new army to keep theirs WYSIWYG every time a new codex drops.

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Some people started this hobby when they had money. Now they are working a lower paying job and/or have more financial obligations. Who is to say they are not allowed to play?

If someone doesn't want to play against me because I'm using proxies, I don't care. I know of plenty other people who will play regardless. Sometimes people just want to play a game with little plastic (or metal/finecast) soldiers.

As someone who advocated for WYSIWYG and against power-gaming, I have to say I am totally fine with proxies if they're for Rule of Cool reasons. Again, I hate the Warbuggy model, and I think Centurions are painful to look at. I have no problem with conversions, proxies, counts-as, whatever. I just prefer someone an opponent who tries to make their army look cool and isn't making changes to WAAC.

There are plenty of power-gamers who have WYSIWYG armies that are no fun.

Everyone should only use the proper model with WYSIWYG war gear, painted, and on a scenic base.

If not, then you're having fun the wrong way and you're a nonconformist terrorist. No one likes nonconformist terrorists.

Also, this model exists. How many things can they put a marine inside of?

Davor wrote:

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Happyjew wrote:

Some people started this hobby when they had money. Now they are working a lower paying job and/or have more financial obligations. Who is to say they are not allowed to play?

If someone doesn't want to play against me because I'm using proxies, I don't care. I know of plenty other people who will play regardless. Sometimes people just want to play a game with little plastic (or metal/finecast) soldiers.

You both need to get over yourselves, just a little bit. I'm not saying I won't play against you because you don't have enough money to be in the hobby, I'm saying you should use the models you have rather than pretend they are something else because you don't like the rules for the models you bought. If you can field a legal army using Citadel miniatures, that is what you should do. Don't get regrets over how you built and modeled your miniatures, and expect me to be OK with it. If a new edition or new codex drops that makes a unit choice seem sub-par, then you should use it until you purchase and build the models to phase it out. You shouldn't expect an instant proxy situation.

 Oaka wrote:
You both need to get over yourselves, just a little bit. I'm not saying I won't play against you because you don't have enough money to be in the hobby, I'm saying you should use the models you have rather than pretend they are something else because you don't like the rules for the models you bought. If you can field a legal army using Citadel miniatures, that is what you should do. Don't get regrets over how you built and modeled your miniatures, and expect me to be OK with it. If a new edition or new codex drops that makes a unit choice seem sub-par, then you should use it until you purchase and build the models to phase it out. You shouldn't expect an instant proxy situation.

You literally won't play with someone if they 'have any regrets' over what they made, even through codex and edition changes? Yeah nah, you're the one who needs to get over himself. God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. It's a game, you don't need to be so anti-social about it.

 Talore wrote:
You literally won't play with someone if they 'have any regrets' over what they made, even through codex and edition changes? Yeah nah, you're the one who needs to get over himself. God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something.

What money? I'm broke. There is a reason why I've not bought new models in the last couple of years.

God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .

Makumba wrote:

God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .

Because I'd rather play an actual game of warhammer rather than a top-down computer simulation which in and of itself can cause all sorts of problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to point out that only the older codexes (specifically Orks) has anything close to a WYSIWYG rule.

Makumba wrote:

God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .

Requiring 100% Citadel Miniatures WYSIWYG isn't 'an actual game,' that's just being a snob. If I'm wasting your time because I want to hang out and play a tabletop game with you but I have something that clashes with your strict taste, you've got a problem.

 Talore wrote:

Makumba wrote:

God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .

Requiring 100% Citadel Miniatures WYSIWYG isn't 'an actual game,' that's just being a snob. If I'm wasting your time because I want to hang out and play a tabletop game with you but I have something that clashes with your strict taste, you've got a problem.

I agree entirely. If you've got a list ahead of time, I'm all for it. If you tailor it right in front of me, not so cool. If you wanna be a snob about playing with me because I want to proxy out the sword on my daemon prince because I can't find a black mace model and/or don't have the time to build one due to my lack of time caused by my Active Duty military job, you can go screw yourself, I'd rather play with someone else.

As long as more than half of your army WON'T consist of proxied beer cans and cardboard contraptions, we're fine.

 Tigramans wrote:
As long as more than half of your army WON'T consist of... cardboard contraptions, we're fine.

Unless they're playing Orks, right?

 Oaka wrote:

Davor wrote:

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Happyjew wrote:

Some people started this hobby when they had money. Now they are working a lower paying job and/or have more financial obligations. Who is to say they are not allowed to play?

If someone doesn't want to play against me because I'm using proxies, I don't care. I know of plenty other people who will play regardless. Sometimes people just want to play a game with little plastic (or metal/finecast) soldiers.

You both need to get over yourselves, just a little bit. I'm not saying I won't play against you because you don't have enough money to be in the hobby, I'm saying you should use the models you have rather than pretend they are something else because you don't like the rules for the models you bought. If you can field a legal army using Citadel miniatures, that is what you should do. Don't get regrets over how you built and modeled your miniatures, and expect me to be OK with it. If a new edition or new codex drops that makes a unit choice seem sub-par, then you should use it until you purchase and build the models to phase it out. You shouldn't expect an instant proxy situation.

Well then, I reckon you wont have to worry about playing my guard, I plan on grabbing mantic minis for the regular joes, while a little bit more static than standard GW models I prefer the look and price for them. Also on the price thing, I make 10$ an hour, now tell me how in the hell I am supposed to drop 500-600$ in order to buy an army I may not like, or heck even just trying a new unit e.g. Deathwing Knights underperform after proxy testing them, and I won't waste 60$ on them)

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Unless they're playing Orks, right?

Well, the Orks are the exception, but even Ork players must have standards

I never play with proxies. Its WYSIWYG for me.
I don't mind if people use them either, as long as they're either clearly marked, or they notify me what they do before we start the game.
I don't care like them because I've dealt with countless people that have proxied models, and during the game will change there weapon loadouts or their rules.
Annoying.

As I said proxies don't bother me that much because I will not play someone who does not have their codex, and does not have their army list written down. What irritates me is when someone says "This model has a power axe." and then points to an identical model and says "This model has power sword.".
As far as I'm concerned, if I'm running proxies, my units are identical. Of course I try to keep a common element so each unit is easily distinguishable for example, one squad will have all Fleshborers, one squad will have all Spinefists, one will have Devourers. According to my list, they all have Fleshborers.

The posts in this thread lead me to believe that we have differing opinions on what a 'proxy', 'conversion', or 'counts-as' actually is.

I tend to avoid proxies, but I mostly play in a single group of 7 or so people where we have rather good understandings. Counts-as is fine IMO, we mostly use it in the way "Here is my custom Captain, Captain Marius. He is treated as Captain Sicarius in all respects." and leave it at that.

Proxies? BURN THE WITCH! No but really... It would depend on situation. But as I quite enjoy immersion, I am perhaps a little bit harsh. But I am fine with unpainted models, on the other hand... Gah! It is complex! I judge it on a case per case basis, in all honesty.

 Oaka wrote:
The posts in this thread lead me to believe that we have differing opinions on what a 'proxy', 'conversion', or 'counts-as' actually is.

Proxy and count-as tends to get swapped willy-nilly. Conversions are something else completely (such as my Parasite of Mortrex who is composed of Tyranid and Daemon pieces).

I don't mind proxies as long as the proxy is in fact a model. No, you can't make that soda bottle a carnifex.