Minor spoilers for a Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns below.
Having read both books (though it was some time ago), I'm struck by how differently both books portray Russ. Thousand Sons introduces the character on the planet Shrike, and for those of you who recall he was trying to burn a noncompliant planet's master library to the ground, while the Thousand Sons blocked his entry to preserve the information inside. Here, to me, he came across as a belligerent, book-burning idiot. The sense we get from him in the remainder of the book is a dog straining at the leash to kill his own brother, hating him for essentially what he was even before Magnus's disobedience.
Later we see a different Russ in Prospero Burns. He strikes me as a sorrowful executioner, who does what he's told without taking any joy in it. He actually seems to try and convince Magnus to surrender in order to stop a massacre of both forces.
Allowing for the fact that the two books were written by different authors and told from different legion perspectives, what are your thoughts? Personally, I have strong feelings against Russ, but then I'm biased towards most of the traitors anyway. The scene on Shrike sticks with me, since that level of wanton cultural destruction seems idiotic to me, at least for a figure portrayed as the hero.
Russ never enjoyed what his brother was skilled at which was being a Psyker. Yes he could be a brute at times but that came from his home and the way he lived. if you were to look past that there are great tales of Russ being the grand hero that gave way to how all Space Wolves are. He was loyal to those whom fought beside him, willing to come to their aid which is how all his sons were and kept to. Even though he didn't approve of what his brother did and followed that didn't mean he fully hated him...Because even all that...Magnus was still his brother just like The Lion. Russ is both a brute and a hero if you ask me.
He's far too intelligent to be a brute. Angron is a brute.
He's closed minded and....I can't think of the word to describe "so sure of his beliefs that he's unwilling to yield under any circumstances".
Actually, angron was pretty damn intelligent. Practically a genius of war, it's just that he ended up with implants in his brain that made him a rage-fueled monster most of the time. And then Khorne...
He's far too intelligent to be a brute. Angron is a brute.
He's closed minded and....I can't think of the word to describe "so sure of his beliefs that he's unwilling to yield under any circumstances".
Actually, angron was pretty damn intelligent. Practically a genius of war, it's just that he ended up with implants in his brain that made him a rage-fueled monster most of the time. And then Khorne...
Angron was unbridled carnage in a leather bag. His strength as a military leader was in his ability to make war at such a brutal level that it was almost unnerving to watch. Though, in spite of this, he lacked the hunter prowess of Russ. Russ was a far more cunning leader. I'd stand behind Angron on the battlefield, but I'd want Russ leading the war.
Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.
However, as for being brutish I don't see it. The space wolves employ the strongest form of Shock and Awe tactics. Once set on a course, they execute in the most effective manner possible. That means you hit devastatingly hard, with no mercy. You make the enemy afraid to oppose you because of what you might do. Then once your objective is cleared, you pull out immediately and don't linger.
Thats not being brutish, its actually pretty humain as the local population can get back to their lives with the most minimal of disruptions.
I think this is why the Sons of Russ come across as barbaric. They bring fear into battle, hopefully subduing the will of the enemy before they even get there.
Russ is a dog. He does what he's told and then sits down. That's pretty much the end of it. Questioning the morality of his actions is like asking if an earthquake is good or evil.
He seems to be painted as pretty delusional of late. Confronts Angron to try teaching him a lesson, and it's safe to say that that was a spectacular failure that just produced some corpses. Let his psyker-phobia be used to further the agenda of Chaos. No matter how you paint the use of Rune Priests, doesn't end well - either he actually believed they were completely different from other psykers, which is ignorant, or he knew thwy were the same, and legitimately believed he knew better.
Void__Dragon wrote: Leman Russ is a tool in the most literal sense of the word. The least individualistic of the Primarchs, despite his Legion's reputation.
However, as for being brutish I don't see it. The space wolves employ the strongest form of Shock and Awe tactics. Once set on a course, they execute in the most effective manner possible. That means you hit devastatingly hard, with no mercy. You make the enemy afraid to oppose you because of what you might do. Then once your objective is cleared, you pull out immediately and don't linger.
This +1
I always saw Rune priests as natural psykers that used the power of the warp and The Thousand Sons as sorcerers who used the warp to gain power.
The son's took what they wanted, the wolves used what was there.
At least, thats the way I've always differentiated the two.
I see Russ as a hero, but I see all the loyalist primarchs that way.
Algorithm wrote: Minor spoilers for a Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns below.
Having read both books (though it was some time ago), I'm struck by how differently both books portray Russ. Thousand Sons introduces the character on the planet Shrike, and for those of you who recall he was trying to burn a noncompliant planet's master library to the ground, while the Thousand Sons blocked his entry to preserve the information inside. Here, to me, he came across as a belligerent, book-burning idiot. The sense we get from him in the remainder of the book is a dog straining at the leash to kill his own brother, hating him for essentially what he was even before Magnus's disobedience.
Later we see a different Russ in Prospero Burns. He strikes me as a sorrowful executioner, who does what he's told without taking any joy in it. He actually seems to try and convince Magnus to surrender in order to stop a massacre of both forces.
Allowing for the fact that the two books were written by different authors and told from different legion perspectives, what are your thoughts? Personally, I have strong feelings against Russ, but then I'm biased towards most of the traitors anyway. The scene on Shrike sticks with me, since that level of wanton cultural destruction seems idiotic to me, at least for a figure portrayed as the hero.
It is perhaps not to dissimilar from 'heros' out of our past. Hercules is a Greek hero, but he has loads of faults. Theseus forgets to fly the right flag because he's to busy partying and causes death because of it. Lancelot is force fed down our throats as a hero, but he constantly fails to support his liege, sleeps with said liege and best friend's wife, and then cold bloodedly murders many of his best friends (personally I view him as a villain, but generally he's touted as a hero). Alexander the Great burned cities whole sale, the Saxons were a bunch of butchering heathens who were binge drinkers and keen on slavery (but modern England likes to lionize them, somehow forgetting they demonize them when talking about 'king arthur'), Ragnar Lodbrok/Ivar the Boneless/countless other Viking heros sailed around the world, explored new lands, fought epic battles, and raped/pillaged/burnt/desicrated their way across Europe.
Men are...men. Great men, even heros, do terrible things.
So, he is quite possibly both without preventing him from being either.
Maniac_nmt wrote: Lancelot is force fed down our throats as a hero, but he constantly fails to support his liege, sleeps with said liege and best friend's wife, and then cold bloodedly murders many of his best friends (personally I view him as a villain, but generally he's touted as a hero).
+1 to Lancelot being a dick. He ruined the Knights of the Round Table. I hate that hunchback.
It is perhaps not to dissimilar from 'heros' out of our past. Hercules is a Greek hero, but he has loads of faults. Theseus forgets to fly the right flag because he's to busy partying and causes death because of it. Lancelot is force fed down our throats as a hero, but he constantly fails to support his liege, sleeps with said liege and best friend's wife, and then cold bloodedly murders many of his best friends (personally I view him as a villain, but generally he's touted as a hero). Alexander the Great burned cities whole sale, the Saxons were a bunch of butchering heathens who were binge drinkers and keen on slavery (but modern England likes to lionize them, somehow forgetting they demonize them when talking about 'king arthur'), Ragnar Lodbrok/Ivar the Boneless/countless other Viking heros sailed around the world, explored new lands, fought epic battles, and raped/pillaged/burnt/desicrated their way across Europe.
Men are...men. Great men, even heros, do terrible things.
So, he is quite possibly both without preventing him from being either.
This is actually a great point I hadn't considered. He does bear many similarities to heroes of folklore and history, though I'm sure that's no accident. His one overbearingly good quality would have to be loyalty, as other have stated.
No matter how you paint the use of Rune Priests, doesn't end well - either he actually believed they were completely different from other psykers, which is ignorant, or he knew thwy were the same, and legitimately believed he knew better.
Men are...men. Great men, even heros, do terrible things.
So, he is quite possibly both without preventing him from being either.
The perspective of whether someone is a hero also changes depending on who's side you're on. Take Skyrim, for example. Many thousands of players believe that Ulfric Stormcloak is the good guy, and choose to be a stormcloak. I however, see him and his people as ingnorant racists who spend too much time practically worshiping their "ancestors". And I follow the Imperials.
(Admittedly, it helps that most of the Imperials seem to have British accents, but still).
That's the whole basis for Space Wolves. It's their cold norse viking/barbarian attitude that makes them so lethal. But at the same time their values are all about brotherhood, loyalty and honour.
Leman Russ is a hero - if you're on his right side!
Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.
I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.
I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs
Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.
I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.
I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs
Ironically/interestingly, Russ's Legion and the chapter that would be its legacy are VERY different, to the point of being polar opposites. The Space Wolves chapter are known for defying authority, but Russ and his legion meanwhile were so loyal that the Emperor entrusted him to be his executioner of other primarchs. Angron put it best when he said that the wolves were more like dogs (obedient to a higher up) than wolves (fiercely independent, like the space wolves of today are)
Likewise, the Space Wolf Legion was known for its brutality and mercilessness to the point where Imperial Army commanders were scared gak-less of them (though they were loyal to the Emperor, they still did things like drop entire space stations on planets and burn libraries and not care about collateral damage and everything). The Space Wolf chapter, meanwhile, is almost always portrayed in a kind older-brother fashion that cares about Imperial guardsmen and civilians (not just armegeddon, but the novels and a graphic novel series too shows they clearly care about the little guy a lot), and I don't recall any library burning or space-station dropping that they've done.
As an aside, I don't think "trained wolves" fits, mainly because training wolves in real life generally doesn't work as far as I know. You might get limited success but most of the time it ends badly.
Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.
I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.
I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs
Ironically/interestingly, Russ's Legion and the chapter that would be its legacy are VERY different, to the point of being polar opposites. The Space Wolves chapter are known for defying authority, but Russ and his legion meanwhile were so loyal that the Emperor entrusted him to be his executioner of other primarchs. Angron put it best when he said that the wolves were more like dogs (obedient to a higher up) than wolves (fiercely independent, like the space wolves of today are)
Likewise, the Space Wolf Legion was known for its brutality and mercilessness to the point where Imperial Army commanders were scared gak-less of them (though they were loyal to the Emperor, they still did things like drop entire space stations on planets and burn libraries and not care about collateral damage and everything). The Space Wolf chapter, meanwhile, is almost always portrayed in a kind older-brother fashion that cares about Imperial guardsmen and civilians (not just armegeddon, but the novels and a graphic novel series too shows they clearly care about the little guy a lot), and I don't recall any library burning or space-station dropping that they've done.
Ironic indeed... What books or materials are there that depict Russ as blindly obedient? I've never had too much of an interest before this thread and would like to read up on it.
Dorn stands apart from his brother's as the most fundamentally psychotic and the least human.
He is far more individual though. After all, Leman Russ wasn't the one who threatened to destroy the Imperium post-heresy if Guilliman didn't let him get his way.
Both? Regarding the divide between Rune Priests and the original Librarium, Rune Priests follow a very rigid and unwavering teaching protocol that combined with their umpteen wards lets them draw on the warp in limited ways without drawing too much attention. I'm sure they get that they are using the Warp, but seeing as the whole caste is based on a purely oral tradition, a lot of the details are obscured in myth, legend and flowery language. Russ didn't seem to have much comprehension about the Warp, other than it raised his hackles and was thus not to be trusted, so he likely just went along with whatever his Rune Priests told him.
I think the best way to visualize the divide between the various psychic schools is in the Brotherhood of the Storm book. In there, a Storm Priest sees a vision of a golden chalice filled with liquid, four dark figures urging him to drink from it, and a golden man urging him to not drink from it. The chalice represents Warp knowledge, so the Chaos Powers want you to glut yourself on it, and the Emperor wants you to turn away from it completely. Being every bit a man of Chogoris, the Storm Priest took a polite sip, said his thanks, and set the chalice down, both infuriating the four figures and disappointing the golden man.
I would imagine a student of Magnus in the same situation would drink every drop, while a Rune Priest would kick the chalice over.
Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.
I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.
I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs
Ironically/interestingly, Russ's Legion and the chapter that would be its legacy are VERY different, to the point of being polar opposites. The Space Wolves chapter are known for defying authority, but Russ and his legion meanwhile were so loyal that the Emperor entrusted him to be his executioner of other primarchs. Angron put it best when he said that the wolves were more like dogs (obedient to a higher up) than wolves (fiercely independent, like the space wolves of today are)
Likewise, the Space Wolf Legion was known for its brutality and mercilessness to the point where Imperial Army commanders were scared gak-less of them (though they were loyal to the Emperor, they still did things like drop entire space stations on planets and burn libraries and not care about collateral damage and everything). The Space Wolf chapter, meanwhile, is almost always portrayed in a kind older-brother fashion that cares about Imperial guardsmen and civilians (not just armegeddon, but the novels and a graphic novel series too shows they clearly care about the little guy a lot), and I don't recall any library burning or space-station dropping that they've done.
As an aside, I don't think "trained wolves" fits, mainly because training wolves in real life generally doesn't work as far as I know. You might get limited success but most of the time it ends badly.
Yup, yup. 30K wolves and 40K wolves are very different. 30K it was all about the Emperor and the HH. Who did what, when, and how. The biggest difference being that Big E was still alive and calling the shots. 40K wolves follow in the tradition of Russ and as such are loyal to the idea of the Emperor and what he stood for. They have no interest in obeying the bureaucracy that infests the current ruling of the Imperium. Their order of Loyalty is to the Teaching of Russ, the Teaching of the Emperor, and the well being of the Imperium. Its just that the current corrupted rulers of the Imperium doesn't like the first two.
I think its the following of Grimnar (one of the Imperiums most loved heros) and his council of advisers that have greatly influenced/changed how the SW work in 40K and how they now are. They have taken the stories of Russ, learned from them (Bjorn was there and saw first hand), and have adapted so that his character faults no longer define the Chapter. The Legend lives on, bigger than it probably was, but who is to say that is a bad thing. Especially in a time where Heros are needed.
Brute and a Hero...I agree with god king, he very well knows what are RP but plays the dumb barabarian card too much often....Also in Scars book he is quite humbled
Spoiler:
he learns the real truth, goes all emo because of his.....er... fraticide)
Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.
I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.
I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs
I somewhat disagree with the comments about then-and-now being so different. Russ and his wolves were loyal to the Emperor, not his rules. They are loyal to a person, not to either a faceless bureaucracy or a set of rules laid down in a book.
I would also say that Russ was brutal, but not a brute. He is not so 1-dimensional as to be called a brute. A brutal hero, perhaps.
I actually think he is insanely clever. I hate space wolves A LOT but Ahriman speculates that he thinks Russ encourages the brutal perceptions of him and is trying to fit in with Fenris and be a wolfman. I think he uses his reputation as a weapon against his opponents. Shame he sucks really and allowed Horus to so easily manipulate him.
BaconUprising wrote: I actually think he is insanely clever. I hate space wolves A LOT but Ahriman speculates that he thinks Russ encourages the brutal perceptions of him and is trying to fit in with Fenris and be a wolfman. I think he uses his reputation as a weapon against his opponents. Shame he sucks really and allowed Horus to so easily manipulate him.
He is clever but not that clever. Angron verbally tore him a new ass before ironically Russ was the first to draw his blade on the night of the wolf.
Leman Russ is both a brute and a hero, he was never meant to become the Emperors executioner.
To quote Betrayer
"We are not the tame, reliable pets the Emperor wanted.The Wolves obey, when we would not. The wolves could be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butchers Nails buzzing in the back of their skull.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard it is a mystery why the name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behav that way, only a dog does."
Russ was meant to be anti psyker, just like how Lorgar was a preacher and Magnus a psyker. Hence all his wards, talismans and fetish that adorn his amour and that of his legion. However due to Angrons implants and his decreasing ability to think outside of butchering, Russ had to stop being an anti pysker primarch and become the Emperors blade which is what Angron was used as, even before the finding of Angron, unconquered planets often surrendered when hearing the world eaters were the ones coming to "enlighten" them . He tried to make big ol papa proud by doing everything that was asked of him (including killing a primarch, potentially) and then would go back to papa for his next task.
He was a brute for letting his prejudice and arrogance get the better of him and to royally destroy Ticza and the thousand sons, deep down he planned to annihilate them one way or another and even if horus didn't manipulate him in to doing so
I kinda like Russ but hate his annoyingfantasydwarflke space wolves. The way he is portrayed in thousand sons is pretty cool but I just never feel that his legion fits the role of executioners. They are nowhere near the most powerful legion. I would honestly say that Iron warriors would be better. They are the best Seige legion so they would have the best chance of breaking though a legions homeworld defence. There style is a grinding, grim efficiency rather than the passion of the space wolves. They have nothing the enemy can feed off, they have no ferocity or anger. Just grim, blank efficiency.
Russ shows a surprising amount of introspection in the books I've read.
He has his warriors appear to be barbarians to get people to underestimate them.
His warriors will do what is needed to win, but will consider the consequences prior. As when they dropped the colony on the cyborg world, they had planned carefully not only the battle, but the political aftermath. They even got everyone's buy in before the drop just so they could not be blamed for "going rogue". Angron wouldn't have cared.
He didn't want to destroy Prospero. He thought he had given Magnus an ultimatum which would allow them to avoid bloodshed and would have put both at Earth prior to Horus's arrival.
His conflict with the Lion is portrayed alternatively as him being a dumb jock or the Lion screwing him over. Yet the Lion in the Heresy novels is shown to be shifty and conniving.
Russ gets stuck cleaning up the Emperor's messes. Including wiping out at least one of his brothers and associated legion. Yet he never brags about "hey guys remember the time I stomped XII?" He really could have trash talked Angron beforehand, or just taken him out, rather then try and reason with him.
All this from a guy who was raised by wolves and vikings.
He might as well have been talking to a brick wall for all the good his "ultimatum" did both him and Magnus.
It was his assumption (One that he never bothered to validate because "Hurr im russ im always rite", strange how similar Magnus and he are in that regard) that Magnus planted a psychic spy in his ranks. Which is of course entirely false. It of course opens up the common Heresy plot hole which is: Why couldn't this superhumanly intelligent demigod just have gotten his father to scan Hawser's mind to see the origin of the spy? The Emperor could have obliterated the Daemon within KAsper with a glance. But of course it never occurred to Leman Russ to do that, because he had already decided that his assumption was correct, and furthermore, Leman Russ has shown that he is in fact far more treacherous than one would think, knowingly and hypocritically retaining psykers within his legion and generally acting as a busybody who thinks he knows what is best for everyone else.
Leman Russ could not have just "taken Angron out". In martial combat he was outclassed, and while he might have been able to dispose of Angron the way the scene was (poorly) written, it is asinine to believe that doing so without the Emperor's consent would be so easily tolerated IMO.
Void__Dragon wrote: He might as well have been talking to a brick wall for all the good his "ultimatum" did both him and Magnus.
It was his assumption (One that he never bothered to validate because "Hurr im russ im always rite", strange how similar Magnus and he are in that regard) that Magnus planted a psychic spy in his ranks. Which is of course entirely false. It of course opens up the common Heresy plot hole which is: Why couldn't this superhumanly intelligent demigod just have gotten his father to scan Hawser's mind to see the origin of the spy? The Emperor could have obliterated the Daemon within KAsper with a glance. But of course it never occurred to Leman Russ to do that, because he had already decided that his assumption was correct, and furthermore, Leman Russ has shown that he is in fact far more treacherous than one would think, knowingly and hypocritically retaining psykers within his legion and generally acting as a busybody who thinks he knows what is best for everyone else.
Leman Russ could not have just "taken Angron out". In martial combat he was outclassed, and while he might have been able to dispose of Angron the way the scene was (poorly) written, it is asinine to believe that doing so without the Emperor's consent would be so easily tolerated IMO.
Like author comfirmed , that scene with Angron was a Russ's personal demonstration of what can be achived through tactical objective...Primarch dueling was totaly irrelevant to that scene...If the two of them were in the arena (going all out) I'm sure the fight would have been completely different....
Also Angron openly tells that Russ wasn't going for the kill (big STUPID mistake) while Angron doesn't give a gak.....Also IMHO if Russ returned with Angron's head that day he and his legion would have been santioned.....
About the loyality here is what Guiliman thought of Russ
Spoiler:
‘He’s a barbarian,’ he said, ‘but he is still a king. And he is loyal in ways that shame us all.
Darth you strike again brother. Pointing out a very good point! The evidence is there. I'll openly admit that below Russ my top 5 primarchs go:
2.Sangiunius
3.Angron
4.Lion
5.Night Lords one whose name escaped me...dang it!
I like Angron. But I love Russ. I know Russ has a lot of faults. Heck all the Primarchs do. it's what makes them likable and at times easy to relate to. Angron while yes a monster in CC...his flaws are something Russ would have been able to exploit in a serious fight. Heck he got Angron into check mate in their battle. if Russ' routine has guys capable of fighting a Daemon Primarch(Looking at you Bjorn. in a dreadnought, fought Magnus in Battle of The Fang) then they could have taken Angron down.
if Russ went for the kill...well...The body count would have been greater with those two going buck wild. Hell a planet probably would have been gone. it'd be like a Goku vs Vegeta thing basically. They would need an entire planet for their big battle...And oh how epicly brilliant that battle would have been....
IMHO 1vs1 in the arena vs any primarch ( with just weapons ) Angron (with nails) always has the advantage...But on the battlefield or a wild open area Russ would always come on top...
I think this is pretty much established...But even ADB said that this is sterotype which doesn't hold water...There is no certain scenario where this could be the case, beacuse both of them are brutal beasts and scenario totally depends on which one is pissed more....
For instance if Angron was between Russ and corpse Emperor I would put my money on Russ 100% (WD story)....Cold minded fight and without any motivation...Angron, 7/10 IMO...
P.S. Horus, Sanguinius, Lion and even Magnus would outsmart him too...I mean Magnus coud probably trap his dumb arse into fanthom zone , Horus would trick him, and Lion would use Corswain as backstaber, he,he,he...
Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.
Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.
Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.
Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.
Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.
Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.
Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.
Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.
Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.
Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.
Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.
Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.
Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.
Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.
Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.
Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.
Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.
Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.
Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.
Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.
Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.
Woot he won a duel when his foe wasn't going at full. Woop woop he clearly better for winning a fight when his foe took a dive! in those cases quick everyone find every instance in sports that this had happened and give the one who won a giant medal! Jokes aside the fight would have gone differently as a whole. Completely different ball game if Russ was out for the kill. Also before Angron could have killed Russ his legion would have put Angron down because they were there for their primarch unlike Angron's. Yeah Angron won in a battle of words, so what when Russ and his legion won the day ultimately. Tactically the wolves won. Because Angron would have fell, then the rest of his legion would follow. The army general was isolated and removed. The Wolves has grasped the World Eater's by their head(or balls if you wish) I'm not dissing Angron's ability to win an argument or his prowess as a CC monster. Angron is still probably one of the best in martial combat whose skill and ferocity is something to be respected and feared. But the fact he didn't understand the strength in a legion, or the power a Primarch can have when he has his legion at his back is what would have led to Angron falling that day. Point is Angron lost the battle but his rage didn't allow him to see how. He didn't see that alone he would fall against a primarch whose legion were fully ready to fight anyone and anything to protect him and stand by him and vise versa.
Also you honestly think the same thing wouldn't have happened if another Primarch had tried this? Angron would have still got into a fight. The only difference being who went there and what outcome would have happened. Either same exact result with Russ. Or World Eaters getting their numbers cut down by a lot. World Eaters getting wiped out because there was no other choice due to the moment. Or the other legion being destroyed by the World Eaters or simply being left Primarchless. Or they run away because of the World Eaters overwhelming them.
BaconUprising wrote: Cuz he got his ass handed to him doesn't make him dumb. Horus was above genius level intelligence and he got munched...
Actually, Russ got his ass handed to him in more than just a physical way, in their discussion Angron came across as the more lucid and insightful one. I know ABD intended for the passage to be read as Russ being in the right and trying to teach Angron a lesson, but it fails in that regard because every point Angron made was spot on. Angron knew he wasn't fighting a proper little war like a proper little soldier... that was the whole point.
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tomball0706 wrote: Leman Russ is both a brute and a hero, he was never meant to become the Emperors executioner.
To quote Betrayer
"We are not the tame, reliable pets the Emperor wanted.The Wolves obey, when we would not. The wolves could be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butchers Nails buzzing in the back of their skull.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard it is a mystery why the name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behav that way, only a dog does."
Russ was meant to be anti psyker, just like how Lorgar was a preacher and Magnus a psyker. Hence all his wards, talismans and fetish that adorn his amour and that of his legion. However due to Angrons implants and his decreasing ability to think outside of butchering, Russ had to stop being an anti pysker primarch and become the Emperors blade which is what Angron was used as, even before the finding of Angron, unconquered planets often surrendered when hearing the world eaters were the ones coming to "enlighten" them . He tried to make big ol papa proud by doing everything that was asked of him (including killing a primarch, potentially) and then would go back to papa for his next task.
He was a brute for letting his prejudice and arrogance get the better of him and to royally destroy Ticza and the thousand sons, deep down he planned to annihilate them one way or another and even if horus didn't manipulate him in to doing so
This is all nonsense. Russ took the title of Executioner upon himself, it was not official in any way and many Primarchs scoffed at the idea. There were no World Eaters before they found Angron, they were the War Hounds, and while brutal (like all Astartes, really), the reminiscing by the last few surviving War Hounds paints them as a disciplined force of soldiers like any other who lament what has become of their once noble Legion. Like Kharn said to Argel Tal, the War Hounds adopted the nails and launched themselves with abandon into battle in an attempt to become closer to their broken Primarch.
That said, I agree that people are being too lenient with Russ by just blaming Horus. We don't know exactly how that "manipulation" went down, Russ was ready to go to war with Magnus and the Thousand Sons on Shrike well before Nikea, and a different version of events has him dismissing Magnus' warning and actively convincing the Emperor that every man, woman and child on Prospero must die. Furthermore, it's telling that when all was said and done and Russ discovered the deception that led him to Prospero, he wasn't regretful about just massacring a planet of loyal Imperial citizens, but rather quickly moved to remove the only non-SW to know what had transpired.
Inky wrote: I think russ is just a huge dicknoggin, I can understand his motivation and why he does what he does...but it's just...Urgh.
30k wolves are my most hated chapter.
...not at all because they killed Kalophis and Phosis T'kar...
But seriously, I see him as an arrogant butcher who never questions what he's been told and is scared of learning new things.
I hate them as well but I must correct you. They didn't kill Khapolis or Phosis T'kar. Khaopolis destroyed himself when he moved his Titan form into close proximity of a warp rift and then quickly attempted to disconnect from his psychic tutelary. The psychic backlash killed him. Phosis T'kar was infant killed by valdor (who he let kill him). On another note Phosis T'kar was the most badass marine ever! He butchered his way through custodes, sisters of silence and Russ' elite bodyguards with impunity. I actually think he would have killed Russ had he not realised he had mutated.
Inky wrote: I think russ is just a huge dicknoggin, I can understand his motivation and why he does what he does...but it's just...Urgh.
30k wolves are my most hated chapter.
...not at all because they killed Kalophis and Phosis T'kar...
But seriously, I see him as an arrogant butcher who never questions what he's been told and is scared of learning new things.
I hate them as well but I must correct you. They didn't kill Khapolis or Phosis T'kar. Khaopolis destroyed himself when he moved his Titan form into close proximity of a warp rift and then quickly attempted to disconnect from his psychic tutelary. The psychic backlash killed him. Phosis T'kar was infant killed by valdor (who he let kill him). On another note Phosis T'kar was the most badass marine ever! He butchered his way through custodes, sisters of silence and Russ' elite bodyguards with impunity. I actually think he would have killed Russ had he not realised he had mutated.
I know, but they wouldn't have died if it weren't for Russ' irrational hatred of all things he doesn't understand/ agree with! And T'kar was a legend, I'm very interested in making a standalone mini for him. He just did not give a feth!
I think the Lion and the Wolf story describes Russ fairly well. He is quick to anger and quick to laugh. he also follows his emotions much more than most other primarchs. I would say he is a brute with some heroic feats, mostly due to him being a primarch instead of being an exceptional person.
A. Magnus was actively conspiring treachery against the Emperor.
B. That he fabricated Horus' heresy to further his own.
C. That he planted Kasper Hawser within the Space Wolves as a telepathic spy.
A. was true, B. only appears false to an overly literal mind in superficial analysis of events and motives (or in denial), and C. consists of a detail that could easily have been true.
Only with the most hard-lined and "overly literal" interpretation of the event.
B. only appears false to an overly literal mind in superficial analysis of events and motives,
Well no, B is evidently empirically false. He did not fabricate Horus' heresy, he:
a. Received a vision of it
and
b. Just in case, took steps to stop and, in the process, confirm it.
and C. consists of a detail that could easily have been true.
I guess in the same way "The Emperor often secretly has Eldar children brought to his bed-chamber to be raped and eaten" could also have easily been true.
Could Magnus have done it? Absolutely. But he gave Leman Russ no reason to believe that he would stoop to such underhanded and dishonorable tactics against his own brother. Of course, ironically, Leman Russ is all too willing to engage in such frankly insulting tactics against his brothers. As shown with his actions against Magnus and Sanguinius.
So yeah, Leman Russ was delusional, and frankly something of a huge donkey-cave.
Woot he won a duel when his foe wasn't going at full. Woop woop he clearly better for winning a fight when his foe took a dive! in those cases quick everyone find every instance in sports that this had happened and give the one who won a giant medal! Jokes aside the fight would have gone differently as a whole. Completely different ball game if Russ was out for the kill. Also before Angron could have killed Russ his legion would have put Angron down because they were there for their primarch unlike Angron's. Yeah Angron won in a battle of words, so what when Russ and his legion won the day ultimately. Tactically the wolves won. Because Angron would have fell, then the rest of his legion would follow. The army general was isolated and removed. The Wolves has grasped the World Eater's by their head(or balls if you wish) I'm not dissing Angron's ability to win an argument or his prowess as a CC monster. Angron is still probably one of the best in martial combat whose skill and ferocity is something to be respected and feared. But the fact he didn't understand the strength in a legion, or the power a Primarch can have when he has his legion at his back is what would have led to Angron falling that day. Point is Angron lost the battle but his rage didn't allow him to see how. He didn't see that alone he would fall against a primarch whose legion were fully ready to fight anyone and anything to protect him and stand by him and vise versa.
Also you honestly think the same thing wouldn't have happened if another Primarch had tried this? Angron would have still got into a fight. The only difference being who went there and what outcome would have happened. Either same exact result with Russ. Or World Eaters getting their numbers cut down by a lot. World Eaters getting wiped out because there was no other choice due to the moment. Or the other legion being destroyed by the World Eaters or simply being left Primarchless. Or they run away because of the World Eaters overwhelming them.
Ignore the haters, it's like talking to a brick wall...Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch (despite him calling himself the smartest and having a cool legion) and I consider Angron much more honest and cool...He infact had Russ verbaly....
But there's a difference - his brain is toast and his legion are totally ineffective against taking a tactical objective....
Wolves are on the other hand WE with brain....They can go Vikingly bezerk (check wulfen) but not until the situation is assessed, like Bran does it....Like he preys, lurks,sniffs and then he goes with his pack and shreds in wawe of brutality...Sombody said, Russ is a scalpel while Angron is a cleaver...Wolves are mini tactial nukes, while WE are one giant nuke...
Manchu wrote: Leman Russ was a hero because he loyally served the Emperor as a matter of conscience.
Traitors will of course insist he was delusional ... but that is why they are traitors, that is their own delusion.
A. The fact at issue requires no harder nor plainer a line than the decree at Nikaea.
B. Magnus had a vision that he interpreted to suit his own ends; that is, as a crisis to justify the use of his forbidden sorcery in his father's eyes given Nikaea. In terms of Magnus's own psyche, the treachery of Horus was therefore secondary to his own treachery. It is admittedly a complicated point. Who knows how many aeons it took Magnus himself to realize this, locked away in rueful meditation within the Eye?
C. Russ suspected Magnus of subtlety in betrayal. If anything, Russ's suspicions did not run deep enough in this regard. Russ's greatest mistake concerning Magnus was underestimating the extent to which the Cyclops was willfully blind to his own motives or, put another way, that Russ overestimated the depth of Magnus's capacity to understand the Powers with which he arrogantly trafficked. What Russ suspected as a matter of instinct or if you prefer superstition, Magnus could only learn by his own undoing: that Chaos does not requires one's consent or cooperation. In this light, Russ's suspicion of Hawser was reasonable. And once one realizes that those same agencies controlling Hawser were also tempting and manipulating Magnus, even the technicality of Russ's mistake loses meaning.
“Still,” said Ahriman, “it is a shame to have lost the opportunity to learn more of the Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake and I formed a close bond. With Uthizzar’s help, I would have learned much of the inner workings of the Wolf King’s Legion.”
Magnus nodded and smiled.
“Have no fear, Ahzek,” he said, “Wyrdmake was not our only source within the Wolves. I have other assets in place, none of whom know they dance to my tune.”
Ahriman waited for Magnus to continue, but the primarch kept his own counsel.
DarthMarko wrote: Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch
Magnus was incredibly powerful and intelligent. The trouble is, it's no coincidence he has but one eye. Whether literally in the setting or figuratively as part of his characterization, evoking for example the myth of Odin, Magnus gave away vision to gain vision. Everything he gained was negated by what he gave to get it. Such is Tzeentch's way.
DarthMarko wrote: Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch
Magnus was incredibly powerful and intelligent. The trouble is, it's no coincidence he has but one eye. Whether literally in the setting or figuratively as part of his characterization, evoking for example the myth of Odin, Magnus gave away vision to gain vision. Everything he gained was negated by what he gave to get it. Such is Tzeentch's way.
Agree, literary and figuratively speaking, he really had one eye...
I'm curious...What do you think would happened if burning Prospero never occured, and Magnus and Russ never went at each other ?...
Tzeench is there - always, he has a flesh change in his pocket, remember + he has a portion of Magnus power
Spoiler:
“I have power,” said Magnus. “I do not need yours.”
The snake hissed in amusement, and its fanged maw parted with a serpentine approximation of a smile.
“You have already supped from a poisoned chalice, Magnus of Terra,” it said. “Yours is a borrowed power, nothing more. You are a puppet given life and animation by an unseen master. Even now you dance a merry jig to another’s tune.”
“And I should believe you?”
“I have no reason to lie,” said the snake.
“You have every reason to lie.”
“True, but not here, not now,” said the snake, slithering free of Magnus and turning lazy circles in the air. “There is no need. No lie can match the horror of the truth that awaits you. You have bargained with powers far greater and more terrible than you can possibly imagine. You are their pawn now, a plaything to be used and discarded.”
Ignore the haters, it's like talking to a brick wall...Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch (despite him calling himself the smartest and having a cool legion) and I consider Angron much more honest and cool...He infact had Russ verbaly...
Strange how much your tune has changed regarding Magnus. It is doubly ironic how you decry me as a "hater" while posting ill-thought out hate posts without any semblance of argument or reasoning against Magnus.
Also Magnus is canonically the most powerful of his brothers. Just ask Tzeentch. Or Lorgar. Or Lucius. Or arguably Sanguinius, who implies that even Primarchs are wary of Magnus' sorcery.
“Still,” said Ahriman, “it is a shame to have lost the opportunity to learn more of the Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake and I formed a close bond. With Uthizzar’s help, I would have learned much of the inner workings of the Wolf King’s Legion.”
Magnus nodded and smiled.
“Have no fear, Ahzek,” he said, “Wyrdmake was not our only source within the Wolves. I have other assets in place, none of whom know they dance to my tune.”
Ahriman waited for Magnus to continue, but the primarch kept his own counsel.
The quote is suspect, but Magnus was not the most honest Primarch towards his sons. He wanted them to think of him as virtually all-powerful, so he would mislead them to believe as such. His "saving" them is only the biggest example. The line is blatantly contradicted by how the Council of Nikaea entirely blindsided Magnus, whom never would have believed even Leman Russ would push for sanction.
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Manchu wrote: Magnus was incredibly powerful and intelligent. The trouble is, it's no coincidence he has but one eye. Whether literally in the setting or figuratively as part of his characterization, evoking for example the myth of Odin, Magnus gave away vision to gain vision. Everything he gained was negated by what he gave to get it. Such is Tzeentch's way.
The parallel with Odin is indeed obvious, but it is best to ignore the haters, it's like talking to a brick wall.
Manchu wrote: A. The fact at issue requires no harder nor plainer a line than the decree at Nikaea.
Is it better to follow daddy's every issue faithfully to the letter, or to overrule them based on your own judgment for the greater good (Aka, the salvation of the Imperium)? Magnus believed his vision, and continued the practice of sorcery to validate his vision, and then to warn the Emperor (Though a good case could be made that the second was not necessary).
Thankfully the text agrees with me in concept, considering how prevalent the theme of how stupid the decree at Nikaea is (As shown in The Lion with Jonson's defying the decree to save his Legion and continue the fight against Chaos, similar occurs with the Ultramarine guy in the Garro audiobooks and with the Librarians within Fear to Tread. Guilliman also explicitly reminisces on the matter in Know No Fear).
B. Magnus had a vision that he interpreted to suit his own ends; that is, as a crisis to justify the use of his forbidden sorcery in his father's eyes given Nikaea. In terms of Magnus's own psyche, the treachery of Horus was therefore secondary to his own treachery. It is admittedly a complicated point. Who knows how many aeons it took Magnus himself to realize this, locked away in rueful meditation within the Eye?
There was no interpretation on Horus' heresy: The vision outright stated as much. Him also using it to validate his use of sorcery is a valid interpretation that I also share, but people (Nor Primarchs) are so simple. Did he consider that doing this could indeed validate his own beliefs? Probably. But I can not agree that it was secondary to his desire to both avert and then later warn about the Horus Heresy. Sadly, the text itself holds no real say on Magnus' personal thoughts regarding this specific point that I could recall, so it can not be proven (Though one must remember that his first step was not some show of power to validate his sorcery, but simply to avert the crisis entirely by reaching Horus in his time of need), that said, it detracts from my original point.
Leman Russ believed that Magnus made up Horus' Heresy to hide his own treachery. This is factually wrong, and Leman Russ' basis for the claim is solely his own bias. Hence, delusional.
C. Russ suspected Magnus of subtlety in betrayal. If anything, Russ's suspicions did not run deep enough in this regard. Russ's greatest mistake concerning Magnus was underestimating the extent to which the Cyclops was willfully blind to his own motives or, put another way, that Russ overestimated the depth of Magnus's capacity to understand the Powers with which he arrogantly trafficked. What Russ suspected as a matter of instinct or if you prefer superstition, Magnus could only learn by his own undoing: that Chaos does not requires one's consent or cooperation. In this light, Russ's suspicion of Hawser was reasonable. And once one realizes that those same agencies controlling Hawser were also tempting and manipulating Magnus, even the technicality of Russ's mistake loses meaning.
You're comparing apples and oranges.
Magnus dealing with powers beyond his understanding, though dangerous and indeed "bad", is not nearly similar as actively planting spies within a fellow Legion to use against him. The former act (The one Magnus actually did) was founded on far better intentions and by comparison brings upon far more devastating consequences, while the latter is not nearly as catastrophic in scope but would be founded on far more amoral motives. Magnus desperately reaching out for any who would help him save his Legion and then covering up the fact out of shame and fear of the consequences is not nearly similar to scheming and plotting against one's brothers and trying to subvert their Legion from the inside.
"Instinct" is not a valid reason for Russ' thoughts and actions. It would be one thing had he merely suspected it, but Leman Russ, ever the bearing of the white man's burden, simply assumed that he of course was entirely correct in his beliefs and any other viewpoint was misguided or outright wrong. How... Similar to Magnus.
On Chaos being the manipulators of both Magnus and Hawser, that is arbitrary, to be honest. I really can't find the relevance at all.
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DarthMarko wrote: You always start first, your mentioning SW in a derogatory manner in almost every thread is really annoying...
..
But his isn't really what's pissing me off , it's really "I'm right you are ALL wrong" in almost every third post....Like this :
Manchu thinks I am wrong. I choose not to hold it against him.
I do however hold that awful Lich avatar against him. Really? Couldn't find a better avatar for such a badass villain?
I don't always mention the Space Wolves in a derogatory manner though.
I also think you are wrong (to much anti SW bias is clouding your brain IMHO)...But I'm also open for your interpretation...I never once told you that you are completely wrong...And most important, telling "Most of the people are WRONG" is not cool (like you did with "fear to thread" when we
have told you that book was fething - boring like hell)...
Hawser can be a double spy, why not ? I quoted you a part of a book where he openly tells he has puppets in SW...Btw, this theory is valid as yours (your respond to that quote)...
You can't hit some pov with a hammer of " I'm right ,you are wrong" beacuse it isn't to your liking...Remember "Fear to thread" ?
Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.
Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.
Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.
Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.
Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.
Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.
Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.
Woot he won a duel when his foe wasn't going at full. Woop woop he clearly better for winning a fight when his foe took a dive! in those cases quick everyone find every instance in sports that this had happened and give the one who won a giant medal! Jokes aside the fight would have gone differently as a whole. Completely different ball game if Russ was out for the kill. Also before Angron could have killed Russ his legion would have put Angron down because they were there for their primarch unlike Angron's. Yeah Angron won in a battle of words, so what when Russ and his legion won the day ultimately. Tactically the wolves won. Because Angron would have fell, then the rest of his legion would follow. The army general was isolated and removed. The Wolves has grasped the World Eater's by their head(or balls if you wish) I'm not dissing Angron's ability to win an argument or his prowess as a CC monster. Angron is still probably one of the best in martial combat whose skill and ferocity is something to be respected and feared. But the fact he didn't understand the strength in a legion, or the power a Primarch can have when he has his legion at his back is what would have led to Angron falling that day. Point is Angron lost the battle but his rage didn't allow him to see how. He didn't see that alone he would fall against a primarch whose legion were fully ready to fight anyone and anything to protect him and stand by him and vise versa.
Also you honestly think the same thing wouldn't have happened if another Primarch had tried this? Angron would have still got into a fight. The only difference being who went there and what outcome would have happened. Either same exact result with Russ. Or World Eaters getting their numbers cut down by a lot. World Eaters getting wiped out because there was no other choice due to the moment. Or the other legion being destroyed by the World Eaters or simply being left Primarchless. Or they run away because of the World Eaters overwhelming them.
Russ supposed lesson in winning a tactical victory would only have really meant something IF Angron actually cared about his legion or even his own life. Angron in his own mind died at Deshea he never gave a damn about his own life or that of his legion. Angron never believed in the emperor or his vision of every primarch traitor or loyalist Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor's kool aid.
If someone never cared in the first place any lesson is meaningless.
^ This is true...Lesson has no value there...Russ should have killed him, imagine how much the imperium would be thankful later...But then again SW and Russ would probably be purged from galaxy....
DarthMarko wrote: I also think you are wrong (to much anti SW bias is clouding your brain IMHO)...
Wrong about what specifically?
Also, my dislike for the Space Wolves is overstated. I merely argue against them because people generally praise them far more often than they detract them, so assuming a fairly equal ratio of posts I agree with vs. posts I don't, I would more often have pro-SW posts to argue against.
You'll note that I was the first guy to defend the Space Wolves and Leman Russ in particular when some silly guy went on a hate rant about how Leman Russ was one of the weakest and most incompetent of the Primarchs in some thread.
But I'm also open for your interpretation...I never once told you that you are completely wrong...And most important, telling "Most of the people are WRONG" is not cool (like you did with "fear to thread" when we
have told you that book was fething - boring like hell)...
I was joking, lol.
Kind of.
Hawser can be a double spy, why not ? I quoted you a part of a book where he openly tells he has puppets in SW...Btw, this theory is valid as yours (your respond to that quote)...
Magnus must have enlisted some pretty terrible spies then, considering how little he knew of the Space Wolves or their Legion.
Hawser being a spy though? I can't buy that, considering Magnus had no idea the Wolves were coming until Tzeentch told him, and were that the case, he wouldn't have needed to astral project himself and Amon to Leman's bridge to see the incoming Wolves. He could have looked through Hawser. I also can't imagine Magnus actually willingly sacrificing his sons when there was a chance they could all be spared. Were Hawser a spy for Magnus, Maggy would have received Russ' ultimatum, that of course fell on deaf ears.
IIRC the daemon in Hawser actually explicitly notes that Magnus had nothing to do with Hawser's predicament.
You can't hit some pov with a hammer of " I'm right ,you are wrong" beacuse it isn't to your liking...Remember "Fear to thread" ?
Fear to Tread was better than almost every book written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Graham McNeill, or Dan Abnett.
Not even, IMO Fear to Tread is up there with some of the best they have done (I'll at least be fair and note I haven't read the Night Lords trilogy). Probably IMO not as good as the Eisenhorn trilogy on a whole, nor A Thousand Sons, or IMO Helsreach, but I really liked it.
Void__Dragon wrote: Not even, IMO Fear to Tread is up there with some of the best they have done (I'll at least be fair and note I haven't read the Night Lords trilogy). Probably IMO not as good as the Eisenhorn trilogy on a whole, nor A Thousand Sons, or IMO Helsreach, but I really liked it.
Fear to tread was a decent read and no mistake. Not on a par with Galaxy in Flames or Thousand sons (Maby cuz I'm a SoH fanboy) but still pretty damn good.
I see him as neither, more a tool, iirc the SWs were created to be a "check" against any enemy that the Emperor couldnt subdue - along with Angrons crew.
When Magnus went "rogue" the Sws were arguably the only SM Chapter that could reign in another chapter. Thats why the Emp created them?
what always got me the most about space wolves was rune preists. the scenes where basicly the space wolves claim how dangerous Psykers are but how rune preists are ok cause "ohh they just get their powers from fenris" I found myself wishing by the end Magnus would hit LR with a "clue by four"
Honestly I think LR's deliberate ignorance in that matter (the only way a Primarch wouldn't realize RPs are psykers is if he was willfully ignorant) shoulda been called out on by the emperor himself. and I'd argue that RPs are quite possiably the most dangerous psykers in the Imperium because they don't fully realize where their power comes from
BrianDavion wrote: what always got me the most about space wolves was rune preists. the scenes where basicly the space wolves claim how dangerous Psykers are but how rune preists are ok cause "ohh they just get their powers from fenris" I found myself wishing by the end Magnus would hit LR with a "clue by four"
Honestly I think LR's deliberate ignorance in that matter (the only way a Primarch wouldn't realize RPs are psykers is if he was willfully ignorant) shoulda been called out on by the emperor himself. and I'd argue that RPs are quite possiably the most dangerous psykers in the Imperium because they don't fully realize where their power comes from
When you hear "Power from Fenris". It is the Fenrisian culture not the planet that is being addressed. Prospero Burns shows beyond any dought that the Rune Priest know they are psykers. The difference is how they go about using their psychic powers. That is not to say that there powers are any different then Librarians. It is just to say that their training is very different.
Russ saw the training that Librarians recieved as turning them into sorcerors. Considering that even Magnus agreed with Russ in the end. It is not that unreasonable of a belief.
I don't get all of the hate for Russ following orders pre-heresy. ALL of the primarchs followed orders without question. To question was heresy. In the first 2 HH books, we see what happened to those who questioned things. How bat gak insane angry someone would get if you questioned something.
Heaven forbid you ever mention the end of the crusade, you will get curb stomped in a bar for mentioning that a planet will revolt.
The Wolves came off as sort of a Navy Seal type, they are well balanced and know how to use the tools available to them. Primarch vs Primarch 1v1 fights come off as school yard "My primarch is better than your primarch" arguments. We should all know that the Primarch doesnt matter as much as the legion they represent, it is how they lead that legion that matters.
Now the thread is somehow on the topic of Rune Priests.
I view Leman Russ as a Hero wearing brutes clothing. None of the primarchs are dull enough to be ignorant of their own image.
Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant
the ancient wrote: Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant
You know nothing of Russ and nothing of Angron if you think that. Since when would Angron EVER hold back? Holding back is not in the World Eater vocabulary. Also Angron has raw strength but the Butchers Nails while yes grants him an edge, it is also his draw back. A wolf who has been backed into a corner is a frightful display...if the World Eaters were on Big E's kill list and he told Russ to end Angron...well the World Eaters would be joining the II and XI legions(I think those are the ones...) then...Never underestimate the Wolves of Fenris...That has been the downfall of so many. Angron and his sons are powerful...But not unbeatable.
the ancient wrote: Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant
You know nothing of Russ and nothing of Angron if you think that. Since when would Angron EVER hold back? Holding back is not in the World Eater vocabulary. Also Angron has raw strength but the Butchers Nails while yes grants him an edge, it is also his draw back. A wolf who has been backed into a corner is a frightful display...if the World Eaters were on Big E's kill list and he told Russ to end Angron...well the World Eaters would be joining the II and XI legions(I think those are the ones...) then...Never underestimate the Wolves of Fenris...That has been the downfall of so many. Angron and his sons are powerful...But not unbeatable.
And yet the world eaters are a larger legion. Angron is stronger than Russ. Also that's rats who get frenzied when backed into a corner not wolves.
the ancient wrote: Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant
You know nothing of Russ and nothing of Angron if you think that. Since when would Angron EVER hold back? Holding back is not in the World Eater vocabulary. Also Angron has raw strength but the Butchers Nails while yes grants him an edge, it is also his draw back. A wolf who has been backed into a corner is a frightful display...if the World Eaters were on Big E's kill list and he told Russ to end Angron...well the World Eaters would be joining the II and XI legions(I think those are the ones...) then...Never underestimate the Wolves of Fenris...That has been the downfall of so many. Angron and his sons are powerful...But not unbeatable.
Gonna take a slight disagreement there.
The War Hounds (World Eaters original name, and far cooler imo) were also used for the purpose of destroying rogue legions (this was hinted at in one of the World Eaters POV bits). The Wolves and Dogs are incredibly similar, it's just that the Hounds bit back as it were, due to Angron's disillusionment with E-Dawg.
Wolves have cunning, whereas World Eaters beat them ferocity wise 9/10.
Who knows what would have happened if they'd ever fully fought, but if Armageddon was anything to go by, it wouldn't be pretty.
Yet in the fluff around the first war on Armageddon it states that the Wolves meet the World Eaters (Post joining Khorne) with equal furry. So you may want to rethink your 9/10 statement.
Stonerhino wrote: Yet in the fluff around the first war on Armageddon it states that the Wolves meet the World Eaters (Post joining Khorne) with equal furry. So you may want to rethink your 9/10 statement.
thats one mention. I can't even be bothered to reference the number of times the world eaters are said to be the most ferocious legion in the HH series (oddly followed by Sons of Horus).
That furry may have had something to do with their wolf fetish.
On a non pedantic note, It's kinda obvious in fluff and crunch sense that Eaters are the angry legion, Wolves don't throw super human berserkers at everything and anything in pure hate.
World Eaters do.
And "with equal fury" is one of those statement so commonly used by the fluff writers, so I wouldn't think you could use it to overturn set in stone lore.
Hold a poll, "who's the more ferocious/Angry legion?" And I'm fairly certain the Nommers will come out top. Their Primarch's name is Angron for crying out loud! (not the most imaginative name, but still)
It even said in the old codex (not sure which ed) that "sons of russ don't fight with blind ferocity that you may see in a rabid dog, but with the cunning and(some adjective I've forgot) of a pack of wolves" Or something to that effect.
For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.
You mean like everything the Emporer did and said about Chaos? Aka, nothing to his sons?
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.
The Runepriests and Russ are dishonest hypocrites in claiming that their powers are special and come from Fenris. They KNOW what they are but do not dare admit it because that would mean that they would have to reevaluate their opinions.
In contrast the White Scars Stormseers the other tribal shaman psyker caste know what they are and do not deceive themselves.
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: Can you show me where they claim there powers come from Fenris? First time hearing of this.
Read ' A Thousand Sons ', it's a fairly major plot point, and it shows Russ as a bit of a dickbag. Then again, it is in the 1ksons perspective...Then on the other hand, even prospero burns makes him seem somewhat harsh.
Manchu wrote: A. The fact at issue requires no harder nor plainer a line than the decree at Nikaea.
You must be real fun at parties. Not surprising for the most obtuse person on the internet (no hyperbole!).
If Magnus is a heretic for ignoring the decree (note that he received his vision during the "trial", and immediately left to investigate further) because he found out something that would literally tear the Imperium in half, then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him, Rogal Dorn for going a step further and imprisoning all his psykers, Lion El Johnson for deciding it was stupid and killing the chaplain monitoring for it, Sanguinius for forgiving its use in necessity, the Sigilite for setting up a secret cabal of psykers behind the Emperor's back, and Guilliman for outright overruling the Emperor and repealing it.
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: Can you show me where they claim there powers come from Fenris? First time hearing of this.
Russ claims it in a thousand sons and his flunky Othere Wyrdmake the most dishonest hypocrite of the entire series repeats it on Prospero.
It is also expanded upon by the white scar storm seer Yesugei in the novel Scars.
fact is not only is he a hipocrite about psykers, but Russ is a hipocrite about EVERYTHING, the guy's running around conuqering planets to bring them into an empire whose public purpose is to get rid of superstition and the like, but the space wolves are REDICULASLY superstitious.
I thought what happened was that, upon seeing the demons and realizing the council of Nikaea effectively removed one of the best weapons they could have used against them, Gulliman said to himself that, as soon as he got the chance, he would appeal to the Emperor to repeal the edict. Roboute didn't repeal the edict, himself.
Well, unless he ACTUALLY repealed it in Unremembered Empire? If so... sheesh, the HH series keeps on coming up with more and more retcons and junk in an attempt to drag the thing on Although even in that case you could arguably justify it with him not being sure if the Emperor is alive or not (in which case, SOMEONE has to be heir and take charge, and it obviously isn't going to be Horus, what with him being traitor and everything)
Regardless, as pointed out by others, tons of the primarchs did lots of stuff behind the Emperor's back. But really, this should be expected considering that many of them were thousands of light years away from him. There's a reason why the current Imperium as a whole gives a surprising amount of leeway regarding lots of things.
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
So what you are saying is that Russ took into account the necessity of psykers to defend against the Warp and supplied his Legion the means to do so, but actively tried to disallow other Legions this same boon?
If so, Russ is still a hypocrite, he's just a very self-aware and very sinister one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, now that I am reading Betrayer, I have to back up what some others have been saying.
Angron verbally crushed Leman Russ' arguments into tiny pieces and took a gak on them.
That said, the entire moment was so surreal that it IMO felt wildly out of character for Leman Russ.
Inky wrote: That furry may have had something to do with their wolf fetish.
On a non pedantic note, It's kinda obvious in fluff and crunch sense that Eaters are the angry legion, Wolves don't throw super human berserkers at everything and anything in pure hate.
World Eaters do.
And "with equal fury" is one of those statement so commonly used by the fluff writers, so I wouldn't think you could use it to overturn set in stone lore.
Hold a poll, "who's the more ferocious/Angry legion?" And I'm fairly certain the Nommers will come out top. Their Primarch's name is Angron for crying out loud! (not the most imaginative name, but still)
It even said in the old codex (not sure which ed) that "sons of russ don't fight with blind ferocity that you may see in a rabid dog, but with the cunning and(some adjective I've forgot) of a pack of wolves" Or something to that effect.
The important thing to note is that Armageddon was the 40K heros of the people SWs. Not the 30K monster that the Imperial Army think twice about even having as allies. Also Armageddon was the World Eaters who survived the HH and swore themselves to Khorne. Not the World Eaters that just had the butcher's nails.
So to recap Armageddon was the was the most vicious of the World Eaters vs tamer SWs. Who fought each other with equal furry.
2nd ed SW codex page 5 wrote:Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the Primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior, fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies.
I don't blame BL writer for stepping on Russ' toes a little with Angron. And further with their legions. Take that away and the World Eaters are just a trash legion.
Russ says it best in Betrayer:
Russ to Angron in Betrayer wrote:‘If you cannot see the chasm between savagery and ferocity, then you are hopelessly gone, Angron.’
I would hands down give the World Eaters the "Most savage" title. Because they don't kill cleanly, they butcher. Which has also been used to show how much they suffer against enemies they can't just butcher.
That said, the entire moment was so surreal that it IMO felt wildly out of character for Leman Russ.
Which is why so many SW fans have a problem with the Night of the Wolf. Russ not acting like himself going into a fight that he has to lose to teach his leson. I would have greatly prefered to have a better representation of Russ and Angron winning soundly. With no chance Russ held back.
From what you guys are saying, sounds like the Rune Priests are ignorant of where they get there powers OR they are simply lying to Russ. I haven't read enough HH to be in this discussion it seems.
I'll still be waiting for Russ in the wolftime.
Oooh, good point, I think savagery and butchery would be more the Hounds style.
But you know what I mean, the World Eaters are hands down the more.... enthusiastic legion.
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: Can you show me where they claim there powers come from Fenris? First time hearing of this.
Russ claims it in a thousand sons and his flunky Othere Wyrdmake the most dishonest hypocrite of the entire series repeats it on Prospero.
It is also expanded upon by the white scar storm seer Yesugei in the novel Scars.
fact is not only is he a hipocrite about psykers, but Russ is a hipocrite about EVERYTHING, the guy's running around conuqering planets to bring them into an empire whose public purpose is to get rid of superstition and the like, but the space wolves are REDICULASLY superstitious.
Good point
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: From what you guys are saying, sounds like the Rune Priests are ignorant of where they get there powers OR they are simply lying to Russ. I haven't read enough HH to be in this discussion it seems.
I'll still be waiting for Russ in the wolftime.
Russ KNOWS he can't admit it because if he did he would have to admit that Magnus was right about some things.
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: From what you guys are saying, sounds like the Rune Priests are ignorant of where they get there powers OR they are simply lying to Russ. I haven't read enough HH to be in this discussion it seems.
I'll still be waiting for Russ in the wolftime.
Russ KNOWS he can't admit it because if he did he would have to admit that Magnus was right about some things.
And being the proud/obstreperous wolf-man that he is, he'd never admit that he was wrong, even if it costs the whole of humanity.
There is also that whole basement full of mutants issue. Anyway, Unremembered Empire offered some additional insight on Russ' motivation and this whole executioners business (and remember, this is Abnett, who introduced the concept). One of the themes of the Horus Heresy is what the Primarchs were planning for their Legions after the Crusade was over and there were no enemies to fight. Some railed against the idea of no more war and being just another political functionary (Horus), some had a hopeless or nihilistic views (Angron, Konrad), and some, like Guilliman, were moulding their Legions to be the leaders and administrators of tomorrow.
So what is left for the Legion of fur-clad barbarians who make their own allies uneasy? Guilliman muses that Russ is far smarter than he lets on, so he took this role as the Emperor's sanction, as the one whole does the "unthinkable" (i.e. kills allies who prove "problematic" to the Empire). So Russ's plan for his Legion for when there were no enemies left to kill was to start finding reasons to kill allies. He's the original overzealous inquisitor.
It was also funny to hear Guilliman and the Lion talk about Russ like he's the biggest douche in the universe. "Man I wish more of our brothers were here, even that donkey-cave Russ." Or "You are a stubborn son-of-bitch bastard! But not as much as Russ." Hilarious.
VensersRevenge wrote: After the Emperor was basically dead and not in a position to repeal The Edict.
The Lion is a weird one. He gleefully decapitates one of his own men when the latter disagree with him, yet he gets all weak-kneed when it’s time to deal the finishing blow to his chaos corrupted mentor, who by the way, just recently openly revolted against him and the Emperor? What gives man?
The Lion is a weird one. He gleefully decapitates one of his own men when the latter disagree with him, yet he gets all weak-kneed when it’s time to deal the finishing blow to his chaos corrupted mentor, who by the way, just recently openly revolted against him and the Emperor? What gives man?
Maybe he, like most of the primarchs, is mentally unstable...
The Lion is a weird one. He gleefully decapitates one of his own men when the latter disagree with him, yet he gets all weak-kneed when it’s time to deal the finishing blow to his chaos corrupted mentor, who by the way, just recently openly revolted against him and the Emperor? What gives man?
Maybe he, like most of the primarchs, is mentally unstable...
Unremembered Empire portrays him as a mysterious badass who all the other Primarchs, including Horus, fangasmed about. He was also extremely reasonable and utterly loyal to Imperial ideals.
I think when it comes to the Lion, we just need to pretend Fallen Angels never happened, because it was a terrible book (the parts on the forge world were literally unreadable (I had to skim through those chapters), so BL killing that whole Nemiel (or whatever) side-story by having the Lion punch his head off was a good thing in my opinion. Everywhere else the Lion is portrayed as very logical, and no more sociopath than his brothers. I'm actually growing to quite like him.
Unremembered Empire portrays him as a mysterious badass who all the other Primarchs, including Horus, fangasmed about. He was also extremely reasonable and utterly loyal to Imperial ideals.
I think when it comes to the Lion, we just need to pretend Fallen Angels never happened, because it was a terrible book (the parts on the forge world were literally unreadable (I had to skim through those chapters), so BL killing that whole Nemiel (or whatever) side-story by having the Lion punch his head off was a good thing in my opinion. Everywhere else the Lion is portrayed as very logical, and no more sociopath than his brothers. I'm actually growing to quite like him.
Him being a cold-hearted sociopath is literally the only aspect about the Lion that was interesting or kind of unique to him compared to his loyalist brothers (And with Perturabo's portrayal in Angel Exterminatus, maybe even counting the traitors). It was also present in The Lion, and in Savage Weapons to a lesser extent.
"Extremely reasonable and loyal to Imperial ideals who other Primarchs fangasm about" describes both Guilliman and Sanguinius.
I foresee Unremembered Empire being thrown in the pile of Dan Abnett books I wipe my ass with, along with Legion and sort of Know No Fear. I frankly had this impression the moment I really learned anything about the book, since, more than almost any other, it seemed like stupid padding, entirely unnecessary. Now my fears are even greater.
A character does not need to be personally "likeable" to be "likeable", and the Lion epitomized this concept. Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels weren't great books (Particularly the latter, as you've noted), but the Lion's portrayal was definitely one of their finer points.
I mean really, Horus fangasming over the guy he insults several times in either Horus Rising (I hope not Horus Rising, because that would make Abnett an inconsistent idiot) or False Gods? The guy he considers a mad jelly loser who covets the title of Warmaster for himself?
Guilliman said that Horus was mad jelly over the Lion being the "enigmatic Lord of the First" and his biggest point of pride about being named Warmaster was that he won over the Lion (implying Horus didn't care about winning over Guilliman or Dorn). Given the mountain of insecurities Horus was buried under, that smack talk could have just been those insecurities talking. Sure Horus said he'd have voted for Sanguinius, but the angelic guy seems the easy cop-out choice (that Guilliman and the Lion both also make).
Anyway, the most fun Primarch in the book is Konrad. He's just so deliciously loony, and wreaks utter devastation evereywhere he goes. People say he's the Batman, but this dude is all Joker.
Omegus wrote: Not surprising for the most obtuse person on the internet (no hyperbole!).
That is some epic hypocrisy right there.
Omegus wrote: then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him
We have the exact wording of the decree. We know for a fact that it did not apply to the Space Wolves. But don't let facts get in the way of your bluster.
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote: For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.
You mean like everything the Emporer did and said about Chaos? Aka, nothing to his sons?
That isn't entirely true. In the first book Horus and Loken talk about the immeterium and it's ability to warp people and physics. Abaddon also mentions it when talking about the interex, the hate/repudiation of warp spawned trickery.
The Imperium's belief wasn't that there couldn't be a malign influence, rather that it was simply another form of science that they didn't fully understand.
From a certain point of view that isn't wrong. Demons/gods can still be argued as simplistic terms for something we don't understand. There are funguses on Earth that enslave ants to do their bidding, creating sort of 'zombie ants'. Underestimated, sure, but left them hopelessly clueless, no.
This thread is most enlightening. There is much proof that people often take what they want from stories rather than what is said. Some people even persist in their version of things when the author of the story tells them the opposite was true, as evident by many people ignoring DarthMarko's signature. Facts, even those of a fiction, get twisted to suit our own concept of reality.
Fun times.
Anyways, the small piece I wanted to comment on: People seem to be taking the words of a character who was deliberately trying to be insulting about an enemy as an unbiased description of said enemy because they also don't like that other character.
Fun fact: "Individualistic" is not actually a synonym for "independent".
Russ is not a dog. He is also not the Alpha wolf as it were. He's not even the Beta wolf. Those roles would be the Emperor and Horus respectfully, before the Horus Heresy broke out.
And yes, I realize that those are outdated ideas when it comes to the social structure of a wolf pack. Now. They were widely accepted fact when the back story for Leman Russ was created and the entire concept of "Space Wolves" was made. The way Russ acts, though it lived only in an outline until the Black Library started pumping out books, was inspired in part by that outdated info.
Part of that outdated info means that any wolf that wasn't the Alpha wolf would defer to the Alpha wolf and be wholly submissive to the Alpha/Beta wolves.
So that's a large part of where Russ' loyalty comes from. The Emperor is the Alpha wolf of the pack that is the Imperium. Submission to his will is the only option.
This thread is most enlightening. There is much proof that people often take what they want from stories rather than what is said. Some people even persist in their version of things when the author of the story tells them the opposite was true, as evident by many people ignoring [user]DarthMarko[user]'s signature. Facts, even those of a fiction, get twisted to suit our own concept of reality.
If one does not convey it well enough within the story's text that it can be easily seen as the other way. It's hard to take the authors side, you can have heroes seem to be villains, villains that do nothing but be assaulted by brutes when the tale is supposed to be a heroic telling of one mans rise against an evil emperor.
It's all how one tells the story, if they don't tell it right, people will take another meaning from it, and that meaning wasn't shown very well in that story of Angron vs Russ. Heck I thought it was supporting Angron as well!
Omegus wrote: Not surprising for the most obtuse person on the internet (no hyperbole!).
That is some epic hypocrisy right there.
Omegus wrote: then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him
We have the exact wording of the decree. We know for a fact that it did not apply to the Space Wolves. But don't let facts get in the way of your bluster.
Even if you give the Space Wolves the "our psykers are not psykers" excuse and go with the verbatim command to disband the Librarium, practically every other loyalist Primarch violated the edict for some reason or another. So to condemn the Primarch with the best reason to do so as traitor is asinine. What's this about epic hypocrisy and bluster, again? Catchyour reflection in the mirror? I hope that dunce cap fits well, you wear it ohnso often.
I caught you flat-out lying about the Space Wolves and you expect me to believe you're discussing the other Legions in good faith? Better load on some more personal insults to give your posts credibility, I guess.
Omegus wrote: Not surprising for the most obtuse person on the internet (no hyperbole!).
That is some epic hypocrisy right there.
Omegus wrote: then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him
We have the exact wording of the decree. We know for a fact that it did not apply to the Space Wolves. But don't let facts get in the way of your bluster.
I'm calling BS on this unless you can back it up with some sources. The Edict of Nikea specifically disbanded the Librarius departments of the legions, but also forbade them from using psychic powers or training psykers outside of Navigators and Astropaths. Even the primarchs (all the primarchs, not just Magnus) were forbidden from using their psychic powers.
The Space Wolves were not exempt from this but dodged it through a technicality, basically claiming the Rune Priests were sufficiently different because their shamanistic practices isolated them from the warp; i.e. what they did was "natural". This was certainly hypocritical and adds another wrinkle to the TSons/Wolves story. Trying to claim the Wolves were in the right in keeping their Rune Priests isn't just disingenuous, it's doing the story a disservice by ignoring an interesting complexity.
The Emperor wrote:Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
A Thousand Sons, p. 355, my emphasis
Again, the letter of the law is that no Legion can have a Libarius department and everyone who was in such a department may no longer use psychic powers.
So RAW, (1) whether a Chapter can have a Librarius depatment is not covered and (2) psykers who were not formerly part of such departments are not covered.
Yeah, that's from Empy's speech in that book, but the Edict was a thing in the fluff before that book was written, and covers more than just the Librarius program. It banned the use of psykers with the legions outside Navigators and Astropaths. Your excerpt doesn't change that. It's pretty disingenuous to base your entire argument on the technicalities of a passage of prose that doesn't specifically replace or even conflict with prior material.
If the decree presented in A Thousand Sons covers less than the decree as presented in previous material then there is a conflict. A Thousand Sons gives us the words as spoken by the Emperor rather than as interpreted by a narrator so I go with that. In the Emperor's own words, Rune Priests are not covered by the decree.
Manchu wrote: If the decree presented in A Thousand Sons covers less than the decree as presented in previous material then there is a conflict. A Thousand Sons gives us the words as spoken by the Emperor rather than as interpreted by a narrator so I go with that. In the Emperor's own words, Rune Priests are not covered by the decree.
The only thing that you have porven is that a dishonest hypocrite can use any flimsly escuse to defend his own hypocricy.
The Space wolves where dishonest hypocrites in using rune priests while condemning psykers of other legions no talking around the issue and offering up flimsy excuses will change this.
You have the text. If you can read English, you know it applies only to warriors formerly assigned to the Libarius departments. You have to misunderstand the text to say it applies to the Rune Priests. And you have to assume that the Emperor is a moron to argue that he didn't know exactly what he was saying and exactly who it applied to.
You're the one assuming that the text of that speech, and that speech alone, defines the Edict of Nikea (you also assume this is the entirety of the Emperor's speech). It doesn't actually cover all the things the Edict supposedly covered according to all previous fluff, and it doesn't refute or replace the previous fluff either. You're ignoring the body of other references to Nikea throughout decades of fluff in favor of one line from this novel, and you're obviously doing it because you want to view the Space Wolves a certain way.
Try reading that passage for what it is: a not-so skilled sci-fi author attempting to write words for a god-like character that's supposed to be intelligent and powerful beyond our comprehension. Not a clear and legally precise summary of the breadth and depth of the outcome of Nikea.
Edit to be clear: past references to Nikea considered it a major benchmark for how humanity dealt with psykers, including the handling of sanctioned psykers like astropaths and navigators, and a general outlawing of sorcery. The majority of it supposedly still stood 10,000 years later and only the ruling about psykers within the space marines was repealed. I suppose if you want to interpret this speech from this novel as the whole of the Edict of Nikea, you can go right ahead, but then you're the one making the Emperor out to be a moron. The narrowness, short-sightedness, and hypocrisy is built right into this fluff interpretation.
It is what it is. Nothing in the text of that novel or its sequel implies the Emperor banned Rune Priests. In fact, the Emperor secretly had Leman Russ on hand at Nikaea.
What we know for a fact is that the Decree at Nikaea disbanded Libarius departments and forbade their members from using psychic powers.
That the decree also banned Rune Priests is something you are making up.
Manchu wrote: I caught you flat-out lying about the Space Wolves and you expect me to believe you're discussing the other Legions in good faith? Better load on some more personal insults to give your posts credibility, I guess.
Uh, please point out anywhere where I "flat out lied" about the Space Wolves. You don't need to make things up to make the Wolves look bad. Just like I don't have to resort to "personal insults" to make you look bad. Both the Wolves and yourself are plenty capable of doing that on your own. And they are not insults if they are observations of reality, your viewpoint is routinely warped beyond what is rational and seems to be based on your own fanfiction.
Fear to Tread - Blood Angels librarians use their powers to save their Primarch. They violated the creed, yet Sangunius helps them cover it up. Sanguinius is a traitor. Brotherhood of the Storm - The Khan didn't care/wasn't even aware of the decree, and the Stormseers keep doing what they are doing. Khan is a traitor. Age of Darkness short stories - The Lion decides he needs to use psychic powers, so kills a Chaplain that objected. The Lion is a traitor. Garro audio drama - Dorn locked his psykers up and did not disperse them into fighting ranks as ordered (violation of letter of the law), and justified this as keeping them for a rainy day (violation in intent to use psychic powers later). When he found out the Sigilite was collecting psykers for his own personal little club, Dorn did nothing. Dorn is a traitor. Unremembered Empire - Guilliman outright repeals the Edict and declares his own Empire. Guilliman is a traitor.* Sanguinius and the Lion back him up, so they are traitors again.
So the only loyalist Primarchs who didn't defy the Emperor's direct orders are Russ (who we've discussed), Corax (who didn't seem to have a Librarius department, but was still saved from Istvaan by psychic visions heeded by one of his captains, and was too busy creating mutants), Vulkan (who was too busy being murdered over and over by Konrad to give a crap), and Ferrus (whose Legion is a bunch of wannabe-robots, and who was too busy being dead).
*I'm sure you actually think Guilliman IS a traitor, despite the book taking great pains to establish context that shows his "rebellion" to be anything but (you know, like the story of Magnus tried to establish that his actions, while terrible tragedies/mistakes grounded in hubris, were well-meaning and not based on treachery or treason...). In fact, I vaguely recollect you arguing as much. But that's just another example of you clinging to the most literal and banal interpretation possible.
Omegus wrote: your viewpoint is routinely warped beyond what is rational and seems to be based on your own fanfiction
I guess A Thousand Sons in my own fanfiction then.
Omegus wrote: Uh, please point out anywhere where I "flat out lied" about the Space Wolves.
Gladly:
Omegus wrote: then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him
Also, nothing the Sigilite does is covered by the Edict which is explicitly limited to Space Marine Legions. As to the other Primarchs, I agree that they violated the Edict to the extent that they did not disband their Librarius departments and forbid former members from using psychic powers. I can't trust your summary of events for obvious reasons (see above) but at least you know my standard.
That's your definition of "flat out lying"? I'm talking about Russ and his Rune priests denying the source of their powers, and I'll thank you to remember that I was the one to point out that the Emperor specified "Librarius departments" during the first batch of discussions on this topic (edit: actually, IIRC, it may have been Brother Ramses who brought it up probably over two years ago, and I eventually came to agree with that point of view). And I enjoy how you ignore the sources and citations that contradict you, and continue clinging to a technicality. You strike me as the sort of person who has never smoked a joint, and never exceeds the speed limit, not for any health or safety reasons, but purely because "it is the law".
But I'm glad to finally have confirmation that none of your arguments are actually based on having read any of the BL material. I guess you form your hodge-podge opinions from parroting other forum warriors and Lexicanum entries? You do realize you are essentially TFG of the 40K background forum, right?
Manchu wrote: It is what it is. Nothing in the text of that novel or its sequel implies the Emperor banned Rune Priests. In fact, the Emperor secretly had Leman Russ on hand at Nikaea.
What we know for a fact is that the Decree at Nikaea disbanded Libarius departments and forbade their members from using psychic powers.
That the decree also banned Rune Priests is something you are making up.
Nothing in that novel says the Emperor banned Rune Priests. But nothing in that novel states that those words are the entirety of the edict, and things outside the novel contradict your interpretation. I'm not making things up at all, I'm calling your interpretation narrow and based on one line from one novel.
Incidentally this is exactly why I disagreed with the whole Horus Heresy series even being written when it was first rumored: you end up with ham-fisted authors introducing all kinds of accidental contradictions, missed plot opportunities, and poorly-written dialogue for demi-gods, and just generally ruining what used to be presented as 10,000 year old history half-shrouded in myth.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Nothing in that novel says the Emperor banned Rune Priests. But nothing in that novel states that those words are the entirety of the edict, and things outside the novel contradict your interpretation.
Nothing in any source indicated that the Emperor thought Leman Russ was disloyal either before or after Nikaea. The existence of Rune Priests were not a secret before or after Nikaea. It seems to me that the text of the Edict given in A Thousand Sons explains this. And that anyone who claims that the Edict banned the Rune Priests has no evidence to support that claim.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Incidentally this is exactly why I disagreed with the whole Horus Heresy series even being written when it was first rumored ...
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Nothing in that novel says the Emperor banned Rune Priests. But nothing in that novel states that those words are the entirety of the edict, and things outside the novel contradict your interpretation.
Nothing in any source indicated that the Emperor thought Leman Russ was disloyal either before or after Nikaea. The existence of Rune Priests were not a secret before or after Nikaea. It seems to me that the text of the Edict given in A Thousand Sons explains this. And that anyone who claims that the Edit banned the Rune Priests has no evidence to support that claim.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Incidentally this is exactly why I disagreed with the whole Horus Heresy series even being written when it was first rumored ...
I quite agree with you on that.
Well the Emperor didn't exactly get down into the nitty-gritty of the legions very often, so I don't think you would ever find evidence of his displeasure. As other posters have said, many legions ended up violating the Edict at one time or another throughout the books and the Emperor never knew.
Good to know we agree about that last point though. Personally I try to make as much of the fluff jive in my head as I can and I try not to let too much hinge on the technicalities of statements in the novels when they don't seem to make sense with the rest of the material. But that's just me.
And for what it's worth, I think the Wolves are hypocritical but not disloyal. They justify their Rune Priests the same way the White Scars justify retaining their Storm Seers and genuinely don't think they're doing anything wrong by it. The post-Nikea conflict between the Wolves and the Sons over the nature of their psychic practices is much less interesting to me if the Wolves can simply fall back on the Emperor and say "we're allowed to and you're not" without finding themselves in a grey area and having to justify why.
I don't think the Storm Seers are the same as the Rune Priests. I believe it was the Khan and Sanguinius who worked with Magnus to develop the Librarius departments. It stands to reason that the White Scars had such a department and that the Storm Seers were members of it. Even if they weren't, the only way the Storm Seers could get around the Edict is if they were never members of a Librarius department.
As for the Emperor not knowing stuff, I agree that he might not know that some Blood Angels once used psychic powers post-Nikaea. But it's totally implausible that he did not know the SW had Rune Priests, especially given that Russ had repeatedly complained to the Emperor about Magnus. Russ was concerned about what Magnus was doing, not what about psykers generally. This distinction is made in the text of the Edict, where the Emperor speaks only of Librarius departments. We know why he doesn't just single out Magnus; he begins the Edict by appealing to unity.
Manchu wrote: I don't think the Storm Seers are the same as the Rune Priests. I believe it was the Khan and Sanguinius who worked with Magnus to develop the Librarius departments. It stands to reason that the White Scars had such a department and that the Storm Seers were members of it. Even if they weren't, the only way the Storm Seers could get around the Edict is if they were never members of a Librarius department.
As for the Emperor not knowing stuff, I agree that he might not know that some Blood Angels once used psychic powers post-Nikaea. But it's totally implausible that he did not know the SW had Rune Priests, especially given that Russ had repeatedly complained to the Emperor about Magnus. Russ was concerned about what Magnus was doing, not what about psykers generally. This distinction is made in the text of the Edict, where the Emperor speaks only of Librarius departments. We know why he doesn't just single out Magnus; he begins the Edict by appealing to unity.
The White Scars had a long psyker tradition as well, IIRC. The Storm Seers were pretty similar to the Rune Priests, except the Scars worked with Magnus and integrated the Seers into a Librarius. After the Edict they disbanded their Librarius but kept using the Storm Seers anyway.
As for the logic behind the edict as presented in the novel, there kind of isn't any, which is why I assume the text of that speech is not the end-all-be-all for Nikea and the old fluff is still valid. I mean, you have a massively psychic being who teaches his psychically crafted demi-god sons pretty much nothing about their own psychic nature or the nature of reality, then does nothing when the legions they lead start manifesting psychic powers and his sons take various steps to control and train said powers. Much later he singles out one son for crossing the line but responds by axing the program intended to train and regulate nascent psykers across all legions, and finishes by telling everyone to pretend like they aren't psychic as though it would all go away, including his own massively powerful psychic demi-god sons. Oh and one legion is exempt from all this because their psykers went by a different name, but another legion with a very similar psychic tradition is supposed to stop using their powers because they accepted a few cross-posted psychic tutors.
So in this version of things he doesn't single out Magnus, he just throws the baby out with the bathwater in order to very obviously punish Magnus, leaving a bunch of completely unregulated psykers running around on best behavior. This now includes the Rune Priests, whose practices might currently be less objectionable but whose confusion over the nature of the warp should still be alarming, and who have just been given carte blanche to do whatever because technically they weren't included in the Edict.
You can read it strictly, but it's pretty piss-poor writing.
Well the Emp did teach Magnus about psychic things, even before they met.
And according to the novel, the Emp did not throw the baby out with the bathwater. He just identified Magnus's approach, the Librarius project, as the issue.
Omegus wrote: That's your definition of "flat out lying"?
Your purposefully mischaracterized the text to suit your argument and filled it out by insulting me, which is all you can do even now.
Actually, that is what you are doing. You are focusing on the specific wording of one statement in one novel, while ignoring the larger context and what is actually transpiring in the story. It is not mis-characterization to say the Wolves believe the psyker stigma doesn't apply to them.
Do you have anything to add to either side of the argument other than crying? You've already made it obvious you haven't read any of the source material we are discussing except that one page in A Thousand Sons. Just FYI, but this sort of response...
You: everyone is wrong and I'm right!
Me: no, that's stupid and this is why.
You: waaah, you called me stupid, waaah
...does not make for a cogent argument.
Back on topic, Stormseers are quite similar to Rune Priests, in the sense that they carry oral traditions and act as guides/advisers for leaders rather than holding leadership positions of their own. As far as psychic discipline, they fall somewhere between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves as shown in Brotherhood of the Storm. Or rather, they were more like Space Wolves, but were open to the teachings of Magnus' Librarium. In the book, during the ritual to become a Stormseer, a psyker sees four shadowy figures offering him a goblet of knowledge and a golden man urging him to turn it away; the psyker, as a properly raised Chogori, takes a polite sip and sets the goblet down, disappointing both the shadowy figures and the golden man. I would imagine a Thousand Son would chug the goblet, and then try to convince the golden man that he made the right choice. A Space Wolf would kick the goblet over, and then go lick peanut butter off the golden man's golden balls.
A series of slanders doesn't get you anywhere. We have a text that says something very particular. Nothing you have brought up challenges that or its implications regarding the SW.
So either they're Psykers or they're Sorcerers, whether they want to call themselves Shamans, Druids, or the Wolf Riding Wolf-Friends of South Wolverton.
Which are Rune Priests?
The Warp is the source of all magic the 40K setting, whether that be through a Psyker or through a Sorcerer. If the Rune Priests aren't Psykers, then they can only be Sorcerers.
Edict of Nikea notwithstanding, because it obviously gets repealed somewhere along the line, as Librarians are still around 10,000 years later, the Space Wolves are hypocrites. Their Rune Priests are either Psykers, just like those of every other Chapter, including the Thousand Sons, or they are Sorcerers, making them directly analogous to the Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons.
While we will see all sorts of "creative interpretations" of semantics and pedantry throughout the setting, let's not pretend that the Space Wolves remain somehow saintly in their doing of it. Was it for the best in the end? Perhaps. Is it an underhanded tactic and hypocritical in the extreme, to sanction Magnus and his legion for something the Space Wolves themselves do? Absolutely, even if Russ, at the time, was too dim to understand the similarities between the two, because of his Fenrisian upbringing. Given the prestige and history of the Rune Priests, it is possible that Russ simply did not understand that what they did was the same thing that the Thousand Sons did, only with slightly different trappings.
That does not make him less of a hypocrite to the outside observer though.
Manchu wrote: A series of slanders doesn't get you anywhere. We have a text that says something very particular. Nothing you have brought up challenges that or its implications regarding the SW.
Ah, so random stream of consciousness babble didn't work, so you're back to mischaracterizing the discussion? My point in this entire thread, backed up by about half a dozen books, was to say that if you label Magnus as a traitor for breaking the edict, then most of the loyalist Primarchs deserve the label as much or more. You are the one fixating on a wording technicality, which, as Calgar eloquently spelled out, doesn't make any damn sense if interpreted literally.
See, this is what I'm talking about with the "creative interpretations" and such. By the same token, the Ecclesiarchy gets away with founding the Sisters of Battle because the Decree Passive prohibits them from keeping "men under arms".
I think the *intent* of Nikea was fairly plain, and I think the discussion of it not including Chapters is disingenious, because the Chapters did not yet exist, and the reason for their creation was an as-yet unforeseen event. *Especially* in the case of the Space Wolves, who were never split into Chapters. They are, by technicality, still a Legion... albeit a very, very small one.
That the Rune Priests did not fall into a group officially called the Librarius is... fairly irrelevant. If the Thousand Sons had never called them that, and instead called them Covens, would that have kept them excluded from the Edict? I don't think so.
It is my personal belief that Guilliman repeals it in the Codex Astartes, probably in a loose page badly scribbled on just shoved into the foreword section after it's obvious that the Emperor isn't getting up any time soon. Otherwise, you'd expect that he would carry on with his father's legacy, and continue the practice of the Edict in the rules he lays down for the Chapters. Alternately, you would expect them to get around the Edict by giving Librarians a different name and only using newly-recruited Psykers to further train and develop their powers, perhaps through the use of the Sisters of Silence, Malcador's people, or other, non-SM psykers... this is obviously not the case, though, as they don't even really change the name of the department, except to translate it into modern English (which they don't speak).
Perhaps because he was expecting to be able to clarify it, should the need arise, by his further edicts, in the future?
We can only guess at what the Emperor might have thought or might have intended, and in such scenarios anyone's guess is as good as any other.
And, as I mentioned with the word, it doesn't really change. "Librarius" is a "High Gothic" word. "Librarian" would be its Low Gothic equivalent, but it's the same word in two dialects of the same language. They *didn't* change the name of the department and, further, it's really kind of a straw-grasping move on the part of the post-Heresy Chapters to claim the Edict doesn't apply to them, because they're now in Chapters, not Legions. Why would that matter? If it was total number of psykers available to a Legion that was the crux of the issue, it would have been far simpler for the GE to say "Your Librarium can only be, like, five dudes. That's it. Yes, I'll be counting!".
I agree that the Chapter issue is separate from the question of Rune Priests. But the Edict does not technically apply to chapters. Even so, as you say, the Edict was about Librarius departments and one can hardly fault the Emperor for not mentioning Chapters. At the same time, he may have done that very thing on purpose in view of Malcador's plans.
But a Librarius department is not just a group of SM psykers. This distinction is the cornerstone to understanding the text of the Edict.
Going by letter of the decree, Russ is fine, and actually, as you point out, new psykers could get around it by naming themselves something different.
It really all just made more sense when they specified sorcery, even if the argument could be made that Magnus' Librarius and sorcery are the same thing, since the higher levels involved tapping into warp entities (tutelaries) to boost power output.
However, it doesn't seem these skills translated outside of the Thousand Sons Fellowships (or really even beyond Magnus and the captains), as the Librarius picks right up without a hitch, so the scale of the pronouncement doesn't make sense. Perhaps with Othere and Valdor (and Russ and Mortarion) hyping up how evil Magnus is, the Emperor over-reacted because he had other more pressing issues to deal with?
Also, the in-universe understanding of the decree seems to assume the intent was to ban all psykers, as the Wolves in Unremembered Empire are questioned why they think the edict doesn't apply to them. I'll try to find the passage, but the Wolves snarl the usual "Fenris blah blah" stuff and the issue is dropped since Guilliman was doing the same. Also, all the psykers recruited by Garro brought up the edict.
Anyway, I don't think Magnus was punished so much for defying the edict, per se, although that was a convenient excuse. The Thousand Sons could have probably kept on doing what they were doing, and more or less fly under the radar (Emperor wouldn't drop sanction if he heard the Sons tossed a couple of lightning bolts while conquering a planet, no matter how much Russ and Valdor whined). But when your son appears wrapped in a mantle of daemonic power, destroys your best toy, kills thousands of people, and tears a giant warp rift in the heart of a Terra, it's kind of hard to look the other way.
The Emperor knew one of his sons would try to undo his "great work", just not which one, and Magnus' little Quantum Leap seemed to confirm every suspicion and whispered rumor. Russ should have brought him back, but he went there with the worst suspicions, and his vision for the Wolves' role in the post-Crusade Imperium was that of a not-so-secret police. It ain't gestapo if it ain't heavy handed.
Omegus wrote: That's your definition of "flat out lying"?
Your purposefully mischaracterized the text to suit your argument and filled it out by insulting me, which is all you can do even now.
Actually, that is what you are doing. You are focusing on the specific wording of one statement in one novel, while ignoring the larger context and what is actually transpiring in the story. It is not mis-characterization to say the Wolves believe the psyker stigma doesn't apply to them.
The Sws know their Rune Priest are psykers and say as much in Prospero Burns. The issue then is "If the Rune Priest are the same as Librarians. The why are the Wolves allowed to use them in front of Custodes and Sisters of Silence. When a Raven guard Librarian is threatened with death for doing the same"???
Either at the very highest levels Rune priest are known to be seperate form Librarians or the head of the Emperor's boby guard is part of some great conspirecy that also includes the Sister of Silence.
Its not UE that has the Rune Priest. It Fear to Tread. But in UE the head SW agrees with Guilliman's discision to overrule the edict.
I love Leman Russ and will always be loyal to him, however I can see where his blind adoration and idolization of his father lead to some poor choices.
Further back before the thread became about who had bigger teef (so to speak) someone posted a good summary of Russ and I had never really put him in this role until now and it fits IMHO
He is the grizzled precise warrior who has done alot of things under orders that he may or may not be proud of (prospero) but had justified in his own way so that his particular job was done with the same level of lethality and effectivness he brings to the table normally.
also psykers and what not, yeah but shhhhhh its magic wolf powers
So there are a number of points here where we can agree:
Omegus wrote: It really all just made more sense when they specified sorcery
To me, this was a much more interesting story even if it was less detailed. CalagrsPimpHand mentioned something similar. I guess this created problems for McNeill, however, because how is the arch-atheist Emperor supposed to give credence to accusations of sorcery when he is obviously the sorcerer par excellence?
Omegus wrote: Anyway, I don't think Magnus was punished so much for defying the edict, per se, although that was a convenient excuse.
YES! This is a big problem. As far as I can tell, the issue that got Magnus in trouble did not necessarily have anything to do with his Legion's Librarius department per se. After all, the Emperor did not decree that Magnus himself could not use psychic powers unless we talk about the spirit rather than the letter of the Edict. Going by the letter, Magnus got punished and Russ did not. Now, what Magnus did was obviously much more destructive than anything Russ could do but even so ...
Okay when did this go from "Russ a brute? or a hero?" and went into "Rune Priest waaah waaah waahh" along with "Hypocrite this and hypocritical that"?
This is 40K people. There are plot holes and the like all over. I learned that but hey I still support Russ even with his issues because no Primarch is as picture perfect as people want em to be. Thnk hard on that...you know it's true
Well, we're talking about one of the central issues when considering whether Russ is a brute or a hero, i.e., what motivated him to go after a brother to such an extent.
Manchu wrote: The Emperor could have chosen words to make that intent law but did not.
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Psienesis wrote: That the Rune Priests did not fall into a group officially called the Librarius is... fairly irrelevant.
It's extremely relevant. The word "Librarius" is not just a label for SM psykers; it refers to a specific approach engineered primarily by Magnus.
You can put it another way. All Sorcerers are psychers, not all psychers are sorcerers. And it probably worried the Big E that sorcerer and Librarian teachings were much too similar, thus prompting him to say what he said. Even if all magic power comes from the warp, the ways of manipulating it may very much very from one tradition to another. I can draw a current parallel to myself that maybe others will understand. I am a spiritual person, however I am not religious in the slightest. It very could be the traditions of Fenris that protect the rune priest from the chaos of the warp. It would be like two people playing with fire, only one is naked and the other is wearing full protective gear. Both can create a 20 ft bon fire, only one will still have their body hair afterwards.
Has there ever been a cannon fluff piece of a Rune Priest falling to Chaos? I don't know of one, but I've haven't read nearly as much as some of the rest of you. Is it power creep that a Runic weapon (exactly the same thing as a Librarians force weapon) is also extremely deadly vs daemons? Seems a bit odd enemy to choose from just to give it a table top buff, unless maybe the change is also to represent the fluff of Rune Priest being somewhat more protected/ready for the challenges of the warp. I think if they made rune priests immune to perils there would have been blood in the streets. A fluff buff is one thing, a +9000 power jump is another. Just a thought, not that TT performance is any great judgement of fluff.
I for one am totally ok with Russ keeping his Rune Priests. I don't see it as Hypocrisy at all. They are different than Librarians, Sorcerers, Priests, Navigators, Astropaths, etc. There are many examples where things are "just different enough" to exclude one from something that effects the other. Both Gasoline and Diesel fuel comes from the same crude oil. But you can't put either one in the others gas tank and expect the car to go.
Omegus wrote: Guilliman said that Horus was mad jelly over the Lion being the "enigmatic Lord of the First" and his biggest point of pride about being named Warmaster was that he won over the Lion (implying Horus didn't care about winning over Guilliman or Dorn). Given the mountain of insecurities Horus was buried under, that smack talk could have just been those insecurities talking. Sure Horus said he'd have voted for Sanguinius, but the angelic guy seems the easy cop-out choice (that Guilliman and the Lion both also make).
Anyway, the most fun Primarch in the book is Konrad. He's just so deliciously loony, and wreaks utter devastation evereywhere he goes. People say he's the Batman, but this dude is all Joker.
So what you are telling me is that Horus was green with envy over not being a "broods behind bangs" emo kid?
Lol, what a crock of garbage. Also, he didn't just talk trash about the Lion, he did the same about Guilliman (Not Dorn though, whom he trusted 100%).
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Manchu wrote: I caught you flat-out lying about the Space Wolves and you expect me to believe you're discussing the other Legions in good faith? Better load on some more personal insults to give your posts credibility, I guess.
He's right though.
In Fear to Tread, it is discovered that Librarians can most effectively fight the Daemons. Sanguinius in 10 seconds flat defies the Council of Nikaea to give him an edge. Hell, when Azkaellon (Or however you spell his name) points out how using psychic power to save Sanguinius' life would make them traitors, Raldoran's response is "So be it".
Know No Fear foreshadowed the Ultramarines abolishing the Edict, with several Ultramarines and IIRC Guilliman himself bemoaning how the Edict effectively hamstrung them when it came to Warp-spawned threats.
In The Lion, the moment it is brought to his attention that Warp powers (Those of the Librarians and the Navigators) are more effective at killing the Daemons, he immediately defies the Edict and orders them to join their aetheric might to the battle. When Nemiel, a chaplain, points out that the Emperor forbid the further use of Librarians and psychic abilities, and even points out that, yes Lion, the Emperor's orders do in fact overrule yours, the Lion karate chops his fething head off.
I'm not sure where the Sigillite stands, since he might actually have the authority to defy the Edict. Dorn might also not really be defying its letter, though he certainly was far more hilariously psychotic about it.
As for Leman Russ, while the Emperor's speech that we see does not directly condemn psykers in the Legions, only the Librarians, let's see what Azkaellon has to say on the matter:
"For the first time, Azkaellon noted the presence of a Rune Priest standing in Redknife’s shadow. The Wolf cleric’s armour was dressed with scrimshawed bones, his open-faced
helm apparently carved out of a great canine’s skull. He was careful to stay at his commander’s shoulder, his hand forever on the hilt of a serrated force sword. The Sanguinary Guard
unconsciously mirrored the priest’s gesture, his gauntlet falling to the pommel of his glaive encarmine. ‘I see that is so,’ he said. ‘Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol,
but you also defy the Emperor’s edict.’ He jutted his chin towards the Rune Priest. ‘You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the Legiones Astartes.’
The cleric answered in a tongue that Azkaellon could not understand, but he knew enough to recognise a Fenrisian dialect when he heard it. Redknife gave a brief nod. ‘My battlebrother
Stiel is not a witch-mind, Blood Angel, and he forgives you for your error. It is a common misconception.’
‘Can he not tell me that himself, in Imperial Gothic?’
‘No,’ said the captain. ‘My skald speaks in our ancient way. It is a tradition, you understand?’
‘I don’t.’ Azkaellon’s tone grew colder. ‘And I say again: the Decree of Nikaea has forbidden the use of psychic powers. Your… priest… should be returned to the rank and file, not
allowed to treat with the warp.’
Stiel made a hissing noise, but Redknife silenced him with a look. ‘His power is pure. It comes from Fenris, as does mine. That is the explanation I will give you, the only explanation.’
He gestured at the air. ‘Now, we may continue on in this vein or we may cut to the meat of this. Which do you choose, Guard Commander?’
For a moment, Azkaellon entertained the notion of placing the arrogant Wolves in the Hermia’s brig, or ejecting them and their Thunderhawk back into void. ‘A question, then, Space
Wolf. Why have you interrupted our journey? There is a vital summons that this flotilla must answer and your unexpected arrival hinders us.’"
You can argue Azkaellon is wrong, but frankly, I'd like to think he knows a lot more about the Emperor's edict than some guy online.
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Okay when did this go from "Russ a brute? or a hero?" and went into "Rune Priest waaah waaah waahh" along with "Hypocrite this and hypocritical that"?
This is 40K people. There are plot holes and the like all over. I learned that but hey I still support Russ even with his issues because no Primarch is as picture perfect as people want em to be. Thnk hard on that...you know it's true
because it's relevent to a discussion of his character. Russ employed psykers while condeeming psykers, he embraced superstition while crusading to end it.
In short Russ may have fought to eistablish the Imperium, but I don't think he belived in the ideals behind it.
I think this conversation will change quite a bit when people read Scars (or anything written since 2010 in Manchu's case).
In these episodes, Magnus finally stops living in denial and accepts that he fethed up really bad. I haven't read the material yet, so I can't say for sure, but this could well be when Magnus finally becomes fully committed to the cause enough to have his boys rain lightning on the Gates of Terra.
In the book, Russ apparently also finally comes to terms with the reality of his actions and how he was manipulated. I always was far more put off not by the fact that Russ sacked Prospero (he was following his nature and his orders), but the fact that he seemed unfazed to find out that his suspicions were wrong, his orders corrupted, and his actions murderous and in defiance of the Emperor. He just brushed it under the carpet and covered it up, yet it seems BL finally decided to deal with the issue. This sets up the current wolves' individualistic streak, since the last Imperial proxy they obeyed caused them to murder loyal brothers, so now they ignore anything not for the Emperor himself.
Omegus wrote: I think this conversation will change quite a bit when people read Scars (or anything written since 2010 in Manchu's case).
In these episodes, Magnus finally stops living in denial and accepts that he fethed up really bad. I haven't read the material yet, so I can't say for sure, but this could well be when Magnus finally becomes fully committed to the cause enough to have his boys rain lightning on the Gates of Terra.
In the book, Russ apparently also finally comes to terms with the reality of his actions and how he was manipulated. I always was far more put off not by the fact that Russ sacked Prospero (he was following his nature and his orders), but the fact that he seemed unfazed to find out that his suspicions were wrong, his orders corrupted, and his actions murderous and in defiance of the Emperor. He just brushed it under the carpet and covered it up, yet it seems BL finally decided to deal with the issue. This sets up the current wolves' individualistic streak, since the last Imperial proxy they obeyed caused them to murder loyal brothers, so now they ignore anything not for the Emperor himself.
Can't wait.
I've always loved the way that Tzneetch managed to make it so that the Wolves ended up turning the Thousand Sons against the Emperor, rather than through "wow my dad sux ballz yo"
Also when's the next BL heresy book coming out, and who's the focus?
Void__Dragon wrote: You can argue Azkaellon is wrong, but frankly, I'd like to think he knows a lot more about the Emperor's edict than some guy online.
Drollery is no substitute for argument. Was Azkaellon at Nikaea? Thanks to Graham McNeill, we had front row seats. The only reason to pretend the text of A Thousand Sons is unclear is to bash the SW. In the passage you quoted, all we see is the difference of perspective between Legions. The BA seem to assume Librarians and SM psykers are entirely and exclusively synonymous, which makes sense given their primarch's role in the development of the Librarius. The SW disagree. As I have said before, the Edict supports their view: the Emperor could have made any distinction he desired but the one he did make was between Librarius-trained psykers and all other psykers.
Omegus wrote: I think this conversation will change quite a bit when people read Scars (or anything written since 2010 in Manchu's case).
Nothing you've posted about Scars has anything to do with Nikaea not applying to the SW. Also, the last HH book I read was KNF.
Repeating an insult doesn't create an argument. And I'm getting a little weary of you breaking our site rules. So let's keep this on-topic and not personal.
None of the books you've cited establish that the SW violated the Edict. None of the books you've cited establish that there was more to the Edict than contemplated in A Thousand Sons. None of the books you've cited actually relates to any disagreement between us.
If you're now arguing that Magnus had it rough then we aren't disagreeing. As I mentioned above under the headline "points we can agree on," I'm not sure how not disbanding his Librarius department or allowing former members to practice sorcery is the cause of Magnus's breaching of the Palace wards, the event that triggered the Emperor to send Russ after Magnus. Was Magnus only able to achieve this because he violated the letter of the Edict? Possibly. I don't recall. But I see no reason that it must necessarily have been the case.
Manchu wrote: Repeating an insult doesn't create an argument. And I'm getting a little weary of you breaking our site rules. So let's keep this on-topic and not personal.
None of the books you've cited establish that the SW violated the Edict. None of the books you've cited establish that there was more to the Edict than contemplated in A Thousand Sons. None of the books you've cited actually relates to any disagreement between us.
If you're now arguing that Magnus had it rough then we aren't disagreeing. As I mentioned above under the headline "points we can agree on," I'm not sure how not disbanding his Librarius department or allowing former members to practice sorcery is the cause of Magnus's breaching of the Palace wards, the event that triggered the Emperor to send Russ after Magnus. Was Magnus only able to achieve this because he violated the letter of the Edict? Possibly. I don't recall. But I see no reason that it must necessarily have been the case.
‘I don’t.’ Azkaellon’s tone grew colder. ‘And I say again: the Decree of Nikaea has forbidden the use of psychic powers. Your… priest… should be returned to the rank and file, not
allowed to treat with the warp.’
There's your answer. Now would you stop posting misinformation and stop sticking with your fixed tangent?
A direct quotation from a HH novel is not misinformation whether you like it or not.
Azkaellon's remarks show his clear mistake: Yes, Nikaea did forbid the use of psychic powers and mandated the return to the rank and file ... of former Librarius members. Azkaellon's mistake is understandable. The BA likely have no pyskers who were not part of their Librarius. The SW by contrast have no psykers who were ever part of a Librarius department.
Manchu wrote: A direct quotation from a HH novel is not misinformation whether you like it or not.
Azkaellon's remarks show his clear mistake: Yes, Nikaea did forbid the use of psychic powers and mandated the return to the rank and file ... of former Librarius members. Azkaellon's mistake is understandable. The BA likely have no pyskers who were not part of their Librarius. The SW by contrast have no psykers who were ever part of a Librarius department.
So..now the books characters are now mistaken, despite being able to read the entire Edict, the Edict that has had been shown in most fluff with better credible sources than one singular line in a single book that wasn't the actual full Decree of Nikea
I love it, you can't help but fixate so entirely upon that one line of yours so much that you think the books characters are wrong.
Void__Dragon wrote: You can argue Azkaellon is wrong, but frankly, I'd like to think he knows a lot more about the Emperor's edict than some guy online.
Drollery is no substitute for argument. Was Azkaellon at Nikaea? Thanks to Graham McNeill, we had front row seats. The only reason to pretend the text of A Thousand Sons is unclear is to bash the SW. In the passage you quoted, all we see is the difference of perspective between Legions. The BA seem to assume Librarians and psykers are entirely and exclusively synonymous, which makes sense given their primarch's role in the development of the Librarius. The SW disagree. As I have said before, the Edict supports their view: the Emperor could have made any distinction he desired but the one he did make was between Librarius-trained psykers and all other psykers.
Omegus wrote: I think this conversation will change quite a bit when people read Scars (or anything written since 2010 in Manchu's case).
Nothing you've posted about Scars has anything to do with Nikaea not applying to the SW. Also, the last HH book I read was KNF.
"Was Azkaellon at Nikaea? Thanks to Graham McNeill, we had front row seats."
This is really the central issue here. Just because McNeill wrote some dialogue for the Emperor, you have latched on to it as though it was the end-all, be-all, definitive account of the entirety of the Edict of Nikea. We don't know if he continued speaking for 15 minutes after that, or if he gave a short speech and then the next day sat down with Malcador and wrote a sweeping piece of psyker-related law that covered all the things Nikea was supposed to have covered according to older fluff, or even whether he was wearing clown shoes and a silly hat when he stood up to talk. Even if you take McNeill's text as some kind of universal truth, we're getting a narrative, not a definitive historical account.
In the end you have to acknowledge we're arguing about a fictional event here as covered by many authors over a series of publications spanning years, so there is no "real" version of events that happened. McNeill's version of events must still be balanced against the rest of the body of fluff. The fact that it was the Emperor speaking in his novel only makes that speech authoritative within that story; in reality we have to look at it as just one data point amid Games Workshop's hands-off approach to fluff and take what other authors say into account as well. When McNeill's Emperor says something that doesn't quite fit with previously established fluff and is subsequently ignored by other authors, you have to take it for what it is (one sci fi novel among many in a messy storyline) instead of relying on an appeal to a fictional authority. We're not parsing the Dead Sea Scrolls here.
So no, it doesn't matter if Azkaellon was at Nikea. McNeill wasn't at Nikea either. There is no Nikea. What matters is how you want to integrate all the various versions of the story we're given. You can fixate on one line from one novel, or you can accept that a very strict interpretation of McNeill's Nikea diverged from previous fluff and botched a major plot point, and everyone since then has been backing away from his version of things.
Just think about why the scene you are quoting exists in the first place. The point is to show a misunderstanding and suspicion between loyal Legions. The point is not to show that Azkaellon has accurately memorized the Edict.
Also, we are talking about a fictional universe. It doesn't exist apart from what is written and what is written is a matter of what is narratively important. It does not matter how long the Edict may be. Graham McNeill was writing a book about the conflict between the SW and Thousand Sons over the issue of psykers. He wrote everything that we need to know about the Edict to understand that conflict. Furthermore, he chose to write it as coming from the Emperor's own mouth. That is to say, we don't have to rely on another character's interpretation (as with Askaellon) because the issue of interpretation is one of the key conflicts of the story McNeill is telling. Therefore, it was important for him to establish the "text itself" in order to frame the tension of interpretation driving the conflict between the SW and Thousand Sons.
According to Lexi, which as we know isn't always correct, it states that the Emperor ordered
.. that the Legiones Astartes, beyond the use of Navigators and Astropaths, would no longer employ psykers. They were to disband their Librarius departments, the Librarians re-deployed to the battle companies
So wouldn't this also cover the Rune Priests as well as a the Librarius as it warns against employing psychic powers as well as disbanding any Librarius departments. So regardless of the Space Wolves not having one, so nothing to disband, they would still be covered under the no use of psychic powers part.
Obviously this depends on the accuracy of the quote.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: The fact that it was the Emperor speaking in his novel only makes that speech authoritative within that story.
This is totally incorrect. The HH is a series. What happens in one book affects what happens in others.
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Pilau Rice wrote: Obviously this depends on the accuracy of the quote.
Yep. And we know there are different accounts. I don't have the sources in front of me at the moment but IIRC Index Astartes says one thing and Visions of Heresy says something else. Now we have A Thousand Sons.
Index Astartes is the least reliable in in-universe terms because it only purports to be the distant memory of the events. McNeill was involved with portions of Visions of Heresy and obviously wrote A Thousand Sons so it is likely there is more agreement between those sources.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: The fact that it was the Emperor speaking in his novel only makes that speech authoritative within that story.
This is totally incorrect. The HH is a series. What happens in one book affects what happens in others.
Unless they forget about stuff or don't like bits, or want to add in their own parts making it better.
I guess I agree with what CPH is saying in some regards, the Emperor told us what the Edict would entail in A Thousand Sons, but the version that was passed on and distributed to the Legions possible was a fuller more thorough version, hence Azkaellon and his reaction to the Space Wolves. But without any idea of what this is we only have what the Emperor has given us and the version from Thousand Sons.
My point is Azkaellon's reaction to the SW does not have to be based on some fuller version of the decree not available to the audience. In fact, that would be a major writing mistake. So Azkaellon's remarks do not necessitate a reading of A Thousand Sons contrary to the plain meaning of the words.
Also:
Manchu wrote: Just think about why the scene you are quoting exists in the first place. The point is to show a misunderstanding and suspicion between loyal Legions. The point is not to show that Azkaellon has accurately memorized the Edict.
But clearly believes Azkaellon that the SW are in violation of the Edict, so there is confusion somewhere. I for sure am going to check the Trial in Thousand Sons to see what the actual wording is.
‘I don’t.’ Azkaellon’s tone grew colder. ‘And I say again: the Decree of Nikaea has forbidden the use of psychic powers. Your… priest… should be returned to the rank and file, not
allowed to treat with the warp.’
In story terms, yes, I can imagine it would a mistake, but in fluff terms it would be a nice thing to have. At least we could get to the bottom of are Rune Priests actually allowed or not. and why opinions differ on the matter amongst the Legions, well, those that actually care anyway.
The Emperor wrote:Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
You can put it another way. All Sorcerers are psychers, not all psychers are sorcerers. And it probably worried the Big E that sorcerer and Librarian teachings were much too similar, thus prompting him to say what he said. Even if all magic power comes from the warp, the ways of manipulating it may very much very from one tradition to another. I can draw a current parallel to myself that maybe others will understand. I am a spiritual person, however I am not religious in the slightest. It very could be the traditions of Fenris that protect the rune priest from the chaos of the warp. It would be like two people playing with fire, only one is naked and the other is wearing full protective gear. Both can create a 20 ft bon fire, only one will still have their body hair afterwards.
Though, from other sources, we know this to be untrue. A Psyker can learn Sorcery and do nifty things with it, but a Sorcerer is not automatically a Psyker.
Sorcery involves all the chanting, hand-waving, funny runes and sigils and the stuff that we take as a given in any sort of fantasy setting and pertaining to "magic" and "wizards". This is how your random Hive-Scum learns to summon daemons and entrap the wills of others and all that other kind of arcane stuff. Psykers do the same mind-tricks, but without the chanting and eye of newt and that kind of stuff.
It is also how the various Chaos Cultists do their stuff, with the chanting and sacrificing and all that. That's Sorcery. Psykers don't need that stuff. They just bend reality to their will by thinking about it.
One way to look at it is the Psyker is the conduit through which the Warp and Reality interact, the Sorcerer requires a ritual action that bridges the gap between the two, creating a conduit through certain practices that weaken the veil until the desired result is achieved (or, more likely, *some* kind of Warp-based effect, not always what the Sorcerer intended.)
Manchu wrote: Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
A Thousand Sons, p. 355, my emphasis
It's a separate clause is my 2 cents. They break it. In that sentence (if you want to get grammatical) 2 separate tidbits that may or may not affect eachother.
I think.
Anyway, reading between the lines throughout the entire HH, 30k wolves were mega-dicks and didn't have a LOT in common with the furry buggers we know and (sometimes) love.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: The fact that it was the Emperor speaking in his novel only makes that speech authoritative within that story.
This is totally incorrect. The HH is a series. What happens in one book affects what happens in others.
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Pilau Rice wrote: Obviously this depends on the accuracy of the quote.
Yep. And we know there are different accounts. I don't have the sources in front of me at the moment but IIRC Index Astartes says one thing and Visions of Heresy says something else. Now we have A Thousand Sons.
Index Astartes is the least reliable in in-universe terms because it only purports to be the distant memory of the events. McNeill was involved with portions of Visions of Heresy and obviously wrote A Thousand Sons so it is likely there is more agreement between those sources.
No, just no. The Horus Heresy is a loosely organized series where authors are free to use, alter, or discard each others' versions of things. Aaron Dembski-Bowden talks about this frequently, here and on his blog: there is no canonical version of events in 40k. Everything is a matter of interpretation. Sorry, that's just how it is.
If you're talking "in-universe" accuracy, the Index Astartes material on Nikea should be as accurate as anything else you find in a codex (IA was largely drawn from older codices and other material and was written in the same voice and with the same authority as any other codex account of in-universe fact). IA said that Nikea was a pretty sweeping reform that dealt with psykers in many facets of the Imperium, and most of it still stood in M41. Only the portion about psykers within the ranks of the space marines was repealed. So unless the "in-universe" source in IA doesn't even know what the law is in M41, I would say you can take that version of things as largely reliable. And I see no reason not to take that at face value, since that was all the fluff had to say about Nikea for many, many years.
So if you assume that McNeill's Nikea speech was intended by McNeill to represent the exact Edict of Nikea in toto, you are free to ignore all previous fluff and to interpret any subsequent stories as necessary to fit your version of things. Whatever makes you happy.
It's a novel series. If you think that the books have nothing to do with each other, I don't know what to tell you. It's not a matter of canon; it's a matter of narrative coherence.
IA is the source least likely to be accurate because it is told from the perspective of the HH being ancient, half-forgotten history and a lot of myth. The HH series by contrast is told from the viewpoint of things happening in the present.
I don't assume McNeill's scene at Nikaea is the whole Edict. I don't need to. What I do assume is that McNeill told us in that scene everything we need to know to understand the rest of his book, which is about the SW and the Thousand Sons being in conflict principally over that scene.
Manchu wrote: My point is Azkaellon's reaction to the SW does not have to be based on some fuller version of the decree not available to the audience. In fact, that would be a major writing mistake. So Azkaellon's remarks do not necessitate a reading of A Thousand Sons contrary to the plain meaning of the words.
Also:
Manchu wrote: Just think about why the scene you are quoting exists in the first place. The point is to show a misunderstanding and suspicion between loyal Legions. The point is not to show that Azkaellon has accurately memorized the Edict.
Azkaellon's remarks do not and should not necessitate a reading of A Thousand Sons at all, because we should not be worried about parsing a speech from a different novel word for word in order to interpret this scene. Azkaellon states what the reader needs to know about Nikea, and Redknife does not say Azkaellon is wrong. Instead the Wolves claim Rune Priests aren't even psykers, their power comes from Fenris, and that is the ONLY explanation they will give. Suspicion and disagreement between loyal legions accomplished without resorting to lawyer-like knowledge of other texts.
This is the whole point. Making the Rune Priests special snowflakes on account of a technicality readers might not even catch is piss-poor writing. It's inferior to the original fluff for Nikea and it muddies the story line with regards to the tension over using psykers. This is why we're here debating semantics when this series of books (and this thread, hint hint) is supposed to be about the character and nature of the different legions and primarchs.
Inky wrote: On the other hand, it's fairly easy to conclude that what the wolves were doing wasn't entirely above board.
From what?
From (almost) every other portrayal of the wolves in the HH. They're not nice. They're nothing like they are in 40k; hence, in answer to the OPs question, I personally think he's a brute as it's my (and a fair few others) interpretation that he went completely OTT in his wrecking of Prospero, and was fairly hypocritical with the whole superstition thing. In my eyes (not necessarily yours) he's either a idiot or a cold hearted monster, and I honestly don't believe that he's an idiot.
On an unrelated note I'm not even surprised that a discussion on a historical decree in a fictional universe that doesn't even have that much of an effect on the rest of the hobby is bringing such heated debate/argument. Oh dakka, y you so cray.
Manchu wrote: It's a novel series. If you think that the books have nothing to do with each other, I don't know what to tell you. It's not a matter of canon; it's a matter of narrative coherence.
IA is the source least likely to be accurate because it is told from the perspective of the HH being ancient, half-forgotten history and a lot of myth. The HH series by contrast is told from the viewpoint of things happening in the present.
I didn't say they had nothing to do with each other. I stated what Black Library authors have said and what is obvious from reading: the novels are linked but nothing in this universe is set in stone, and authors are free to borrow or alter as they see fit. Not every detail gets carried through every book.
IA is only "inaccurate" in the sense that details are often vague and some things are literally presented as half-forgotten history. When multiple sources and the IA say Nikea was a huge deal that covered X, Y, and Z and is still enforced to the present day, that's no different from a codex telling us there was a battle between this faction and that faction on such and such a date thousands of years ago. Accept it with the same grain of salt you accept any other dispassionate statement of fact in a codex.
Similarly, the HH series and other Black Library novels are only "accurate" as far as they jive with what everyone else says - multiple versions of things are sometimes presented. Saying it's the one true version because there are direct quotes from primarchs is, like i said earlier, an appeal to a fictional authority. A new codex could land next month with a dispassionate historical account that contradicts it. All of these sources, IA and HH and any other BL novel, have equal weight as far as GW is concerned. When there's a conflict you're left to sort it out for yourself.
That's just how it is. I don't know what else I can say, because it's what actual authors have said.
No, Azkaellon states what the reader needs to know about Azkaellon's view of things.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: and Redknife does not say Azkaellon is wrong. Instead the Wolves claim Rune Priests aren't even psykers
No, the Rune Priest says he's not a witch-mind. Whether that refers to psykers or Librarians (who the SW see as sorcerers) is purposefully (on the author's part) obscured because, as I have said, the scene is about misunderstanding and suspicion.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: I don't know what else I can say, because it's what actual authors have said.
One more time: we're not talking about canon; we're talking about a story told over a series of books making sense.
And I'm not just talking about canon, I'm talking about the BL writing process in general. They are not required to stick to every detail and nuance of each other's novels, even within the HH series. It's entirely at the author's discretion. So you can continue reading that Scars scene as "everyone is confused and everything is veiled" or you can take it at face value and realize this author is not necessarily bound to the exact story as written by previous authors. That is really, honestly, just how it is.
I'm not saying that "Magnus had it rough", but rather that your condemnation of Magnus as a traitor because he violated the edict is wrong. By that standard, most of the Primarchs are traitors, you just latched onto Russ because that's the only thing that's debatable. All the things you couldn't dispute you ignored. And obviously the Emperor's decree is not as cut and dry as you say, since people in and out of the universe are confused by its intent.
Manchu wrote: If no one is bound to the same story then there is no basis to form any opinion of Leman Russ and the thread is pointless.
Hey man, you're the one having trouble with it. Everyone else seems capable of synthesizing their own viewpoint, even if it means weighing different authors' interpretations of the Horus Heresy and the characters therein.
Honestly dude we just disagree. Visions of Heresy and especially McNeill's take on Nikea differed from previous fluff, no two ways about it. And it looks like some of James Swallow's characters at least are following a more "traditional" interpretation of Nikea.
I think Swallow is backing away from McNeill's version of things. That's how it seems to me. For me it's not hard to make McNeill's text jive with previous AND subsequent material. The meaning of McNeill's novel doesn't change so much, but that scene with Azkaellon has additional meaning. As a result the SW gain a more nuanced character, which I find interesting. They're utterly loyal, but convinced their own sh*t don't stink, arrogant in their superiority.
You can choose to see McNeill's Nikea as a clean break from previous material and ignore what came before, and you can interpret Swallow's scene with Azkaellon differently than I do. It isn't wrong because there's no canonically right answer.
And if more books come out with a more traditional take on Nikea, you may have to revise your views. And if more come out cementing McNeill's version of things, I might change my views (although I won't like it).
I already agreed with you twice ITT that Magnus could likely only be punished for violating the Edict in the HH on a technicality, or as you put it that the edict was a convenient excuse. I am not sure to what extent Magnus relied on the conditions forbidden in the Edict to earn the Emperor's wrath but the real issue was him using sorcery (and breaching the Palace wards) rather than not disbanding his Librarius department or allowing former members to use psychic powers. The idea that Magnus was punished for violating the Edict is from IA and Visions of Heresy. Those sources are contradicted by A Thousand Sons in this regard.
Furthermore, I did not latch onto Russ. This is a thread about Leman Russ's character. As per the HH, he is not a hypocrite on the issue of Nikaea. Certainly neither of IA nor Visions of Heresy portrays him as a hypocrite on this issue, either.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: And it looks like some of James Swallow's characters at least are following a more "traditional" interpretation of Nikea.
Also incorrect. In the "traditional" account, there is no mention of the SW using psykers after the Emperor forbids it. Swallow is going along with McNeill, just not in the way you have misunderstood him.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: And it looks like some of James Swallow's characters at least are following a more "traditional" interpretation of Nikea.
Also incorrect. In the "traditional" account, there is no mention of the SW using psykers after the Emperor forbids it. Swallow is going along with McNeill, just not in the way you have misunderstood him.
Dude, just no. I don't care what the Space Wolves did or didn't do, that has nothing to do with the contents of the Edict of Nikea. The "traditional" view of Nikea would be the one that was around unchanged from the time I read it in the 2E Ultramarines codex in like 1996 up until McNeill's novel. Nikea, among many other things, outlawed psykers in the legions. No ifs, ands or buts, that's what the old fluff said. Rune Priests were not special snowflakes, they got no mention, and what the Space Wolves did or didn't do is irrelevant. There is no mention of the Wolves using psykers after the Emperor forbids it because whether that did or did not happen is a whole different story.
Now you can interpret Swallow's Azkaellon as being misinformed based on McNeill's novel. That's fine. I interpret it as Swallow falling back to the older version of Nikea, and Azkaellon knowing what's going on.
Please post a source about the many other things Nikaea did.
IA and VoH have the Emperor putting Russ on the case. Unlike the HH series, including Swallow's work, no part of the story is about suspicion of sorcery or uneven application of the Edict among the Loyalist legions. This was invented for the HH series by McNeill and Swallow is going along with it.
Manchu wrote: Please post a source about the many other things Nikaea did.
"The Edicts of Nikaea stood largely untouched for the next 10,000 standard years as the primary Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. Only the edict against the use of Librarians within the ranks of the Space Marines would be reversed as a result of the Horus Heresy, as that terrible civil war made clear to the rulers of the Imperium that Astartes psykers were essential to combat the power of the Forces of Chaos."
"Ultimately, in a speech to the gathered Astartes (which seemed to Azhek Ahriman to be directly intended for Magnus himself), the Emperor issued what would become known as the Edict of Nikaea, decreeing that the Legiones Astartes, beyond the use of Navigators and Astropaths, would no longer employ psykers."
Not a lot remains as far as old material there, because like I said, McNeill's version conflicts with the old fluff, and the bulk of those entries are a synopsis of Thousand Sons. When I get home from work I will personally scan ancient texts and post my results here just for you
Manchu wrote: IA and VoH have the Emperor putting Russ on the case. Unlike the HH series, including Swallow's work, no part of the story is about suspicion of sorcery or uneven application of the Edict among the Loyalist legions. This was invented for the HH series by McNeill and Swallow is going along with it.
Yeah, everyone knows Russ is sicced on Magnus, no clue why you're mentioning that. No part of the story is about uneven application of the edict among the legions because the edict literally covered all legions equally: no psykers, period. McNeill's version of Nikea is much narrower than the original. Swallow is "going along with" McNeill in the sense that the Wolves continue using Rune Priests, but his text doesn't support McNeill's version of Nikea. You can read it that way if you assume Azkaellon is misinformed, but nothing in that passage from Swallow supports that.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: When I get home from work I will personally scan ancient texts and post my results here just for you
I look forward to seeing what else Nikaea did in "ancient texts" besides ban SM psykers and not anyone else. Neither IA nor VoH lists anything else (apart from "sorcery" generally).
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Swallow is "going along with" McNeill in the sense that the Wolves continue using Rune Priests
Yes, just as I posted. I posted this to counter your idea that Swallow is in continuity with IA and/or VoH rather than A Thousand Sons.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: You can read it that way if you assume Azkaellon is misinformed, but nothing in that passage from Swallow supports that.
Nothing in the passage supports that Azkaellon is well informed, either. As I already posted, all the passage supports is what Azkaellon's point of view is. The passage supports that Azkaellon is suspicious of the SW violating Nikaea. It is not proof that he understood Nikaea, that he understood the SW approach to psykers, much less that the SW were actually violating Nikaea.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: When I get home from work I will personally scan ancient texts and post my results here just for you
I look forward to seeing what else Nikaea did in "ancient texts" besides ban SM psykers and not anyone else. Neither IA nor VoH lists anything else (apart from "sorcery" generally).
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Swallow is "going along with" McNeill in the sense that the Wolves continue using Rune Priests
Yes, just as I posted. I posted this to counter your idea that Swallow is in continuity with IA and/or VoH rather than A Thousand Sons.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: You can read it that way if you assume Azkaellon is misinformed, but nothing in that passage from Swallow supports that.
Nothing in the passage supports that Azkaellon is well informed, either. As I already posted, all the passage supports is what Azkaellon's point of view is. The passage supports that Azkaellon is suspicious of the SW violating Nikaea. It is not proof that he understood Nikaea, that he understood the SW approach to psykers, much less that the SW were actually violating Nikaea.
Nothing ever gave a complete account of what Nikaea did. The implication was that banning psykers in the legions was only part of it, and Nikaea overall was an important bedrock of Imperial law concerning psykers. That's the most I could ever produce, and I'll share whatever I find.
And you're intentionally conflating a lot of things when you say Swallow is in continuity with A Thousand Sons and not IA or VoH. I'm not talking about what he says about Rune Priests or anything else in the plot (you realize it is possible for a book hundreds of pages long to agree with different sources in different places when it comes to entirely different topics).
I said, specifically, Swallow's treatment of the ruling at Nikaea appears to follow IA. Nothing in that scene referenced Librarians or dismantling Librarius organizations - Azkaellon just says all psykers were banned. That's either going back to older fluff, or Azkaellon is confused. Swallow does not make it clear either way, so interpret it as you wish.
Of course Nikaea is a foundational piece of Imperial law. But that doesn't mean the Edict itself did more than we have already discussed.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: That's either going back to older fluff, or Azkaellon is confused. Swallow does not make it clear either way, so interpret it as you wish.
Or you can interpret as a part of a series. Like it says on the cover.
It is worth remembering that McNeil has botched the characters of both Horus and the Emperor, and doesn't seem to understand the HH timeline, so all of his contributions are questionable.
Whether Russ is guilty of anything, it is a RAW vs RAI argument. I can't wait to read Scars for this very reason.
Manchu wrote: Drollery is no substitute for argument.
Answering the minute fraction of people's posts because you have no response to the rest of it is no substitute for argument.
Was Azkaellon at Nikaea?
The Sanguinary Guard were at Nikaea with Sanguinius so probably.
Thanks to Graham McNeill, we had front row seats.
As did Sanguinius, who was so close he wept at Magnus' trial. The Edict applied more to Sanguinius' Legion than most, since he helped Magnus develop the Librarius department. You could argue Azkaellon, Sanguinius' right hand man, was wrong, but it would be an uphill battle.
IIRC the Garro audiobooks support this as well, but I don't recall.
The only reason to pretend the text of A Thousand Sons is unclear is to bash the SW.
For someone who complains about Omegus, you sure are quick to commit to poisoning the well.
In the passage you quoted, all we see is the difference of perspective between Legions. The BA seem to assume Librarians and SM psykers are entirely and exclusively synonymous, which makes sense given their primarch's role in the development of the Librarius. The SW disagree. As I have said before, the Edict supports their view: the Emperor could have made any distinction he desired but the one he did make was between Librarius-trained psykers and all other psykers.
At best, the Space Wolves got off on a technicality. You may complain that this would mean the Space Wolves went behind daddy's back, but this isn't the first time that occurred. Leman Russ tried to sanction Angron without getting the approval to do so from daddy in a flashback in Betrayer, and in fact attacked a calm(!) Angron first, all because he lacked the ability to argue his point to Angron. He didn't have the authority to saction or kill Angron, and Angron called his bluff.
And in Fear to Tread, in the passage I quoted, we do indeed see how the Space Wolves deal with the other Legions rather underhandedly. Rather than argue against Azkaellon's wording of the Edict, Redknife just outright denies Stiel is a psyker. Stiel goes on to meet with the Blood Angels Librarians to help them psyker the feth out of Sanguinius to save his life.
Your admonishment of Magnus only holds value if you apply it to the other Primarchs who violated the Edict.
In these episodes, Magnus finally stops living in denial and accepts that he fethed up really bad.
Like he did in A Thousand Sons?
I think the authors might legitimately be giving Magnus Alzheimer's disease, considering that in Battle of the Fang he apparently frequently forgets that he's a Primarch, and in every Horus Heresy novel or novella since A Thousand Sons he forgets that he had already resigned himself to his fate, and admits that he fethed up pretty badly.
I can't wait to see what dementia-ridden adventures Wraight has in store for Magnus in Scars lol (No but for real the novel I think looks interesting).
I already agreed with you twice ITT that Magnus could likely only be punished for violating the Edict in the HH on a technicality, or as you put it that the edict was a convenient excuse. I am not sure to what extent Magnus relied on the conditions forbidden in the Edict to earn the Emperor's wrath but the real issue was him using sorcery (and breaching the Palace wards) rather than not disbanding his Librarius department or allowing former members to use psychic powers. The idea that Magnus was punished for violating the Edict is from IA and Visions of Heresy. Those sources are contradicted by A Thousand Sons in this regard.
Furthermore, I did not latch onto Russ. This is a thread about Leman Russ's character. As per the HH, he is not a hypocrite on the issue of Nikaea. Certainly neither of IA nor Visions of Heresy portrays him as a hypocrite on this issue, either.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: And it looks like some of James Swallow's characters at least are following a more "traditional" interpretation of Nikea.
Also incorrect. In the "traditional" account, there is no mention of the SW using psykers after the Emperor forbids it. Swallow is going along with McNeill, just not in the way you have misunderstood him.
Russ is a two faced dishonest hypocrite on the issue of psykers and no word play or semantics is going to change that.
He may be correct according to a very narrow very debatable reading of the letter of the law that does not make him any less of a two faced hypocrite.
Omegus wrote: It is worth remembering that McNeil has botched the characters of both Horus and the Emperor, and doesn't seem to understand the HH timeline, so all of his contributions are questionable.
Whether Russ is guilty of anything, it is a RAW vs RAI argument. I can't wait to read Scars for this very reason.
How has McNeill botched the character of the Emperor?
You're so hung up on Outcast Dead.
What of ADB, who has botched Leman Russ and Magnus? And who generally doesn't seem to give a feth about other writers' precedents.
Manchu wrote: Of course Nikaea is a foundational piece of Imperial law. But that doesn't mean the Edict itself did more than we have already discussed.
How could Nikaea be a foundation of imperial law 10,000 years later if the entirety of Nikaea concerned a subject so narrow as the disbandment of the Librarius organizations, and it was repealed completely within years? Nikaea was a broad judgment concerning sorcery and how to handle psykers in general. Most of it still stands in M41. That's the old fluff.
Here's another excerpt, from Lexicanum:
Magnus had spoken passionately with great power and the Council became even more divided. While effective the Witch Hunters could not match Magnus' persuasiveness. The tension could easily have been cut with a knife when a group of Space Marine Librarians approached the Dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod, and all fell silent. Among the group were some of the greatest Librarians of the Space Marine Legions. They formed a semi-circle around the Dais to indicate that they spoke as one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who spoke.
A psyker, he proposed, was like an athlete, a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery however was a knowledge that had to be sought for, even bargained for with evil powers. No one could be sure who benefited in the deal.
They proposed the education of all psykers and their priority would be to serve Mankind. This should become an immediate Imperial priority. Conducting sorcery would forever be outlawed as an unforgivable offense against Mankind and the worst kind of heresy.
The end result was a compromise that offered both factions something. It was as if this was what the Emperor was waiting for, and he ruled it as law immediately without allowing any rebuttal from either side. The Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as the Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. Magnus attempted to storm out of the hall in protest, but was barred by the Emperor himself. The confrontation between father and son is recorded in the Grimoire Hereticus.
The Emperor ordered Magnus to cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. Magnus of course did not like the idea, and it was said his face was brittle enough to crack. But in the end he bent his will to the Emperor and agreed to obey.
There are different versions of this story, so believe what you want.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: That's either going back to older fluff, or Azkaellon is confused. Swallow does not make it clear either way, so interpret it as you wish.
Or you can interpret as a part of a series. Like it says on the cover.
Don't be a smartass. We already went over this. Black Library authors have leeway in their writing. If you can't handle that then come up with whatever mental contortions are required to make every word of every novel fit perfectly with each other. Let's agree to disagree.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: How could Nikaea be a foundation of imperial law 10,000 years later if the entirety of Nikaea concerned a subject so narrow as the disbandment of the Librarius organizations
As I have posted twice already, the Emperor says in A Thousand Sons:
But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes.
This is a precedent.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: There are different versions of this story, so believe what you want.
And Leman Russ is a hypocrite in NONE of the versions. The difference is that Magnus comes off much better in A Thousand Sons than in IA or even VoH.
A. Magnus was actively conspiring treachery against the Emperor.
B. That he fabricated Horus' heresy to further his own.
C. That he planted Kasper Hawser within the Space Wolves as a telepathic spy.
All of these beliefs are not true and largely unfounded, with only the first one being even kind of arguable.
Therefore, he was deluded. To argue otherwise is to be wrong.
Your response:
Manchu wrote: A. was true, B. only appears false to an overly literal mind in superficial analysis of events and motives (or in denial), and C. consists of a detail that could easily have been true.
If Magnus is a heretic for ignoring the decree (note that he received his vision during the "trial", and immediately left to investigate further) because he found out something that would literally tear the Imperium in half, then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him, Rogal Dorn for going a step further and imprisoning all his psykers, Lion El Johnson for deciding it was stupid and killing the chaplain monitoring for it, Sanguinius for forgiving its use in necessity, the Sigilite for setting up a secret cabal of psykers behind the Emperor's back, and Guilliman for outright overruling the Emperor and repealing it.
More abrasive than it needed to be, but you have yet to really address any other instance with the exception of Russ, because that is the only one you can even kind of argue. That you continue to pretend that our posts are only further undermines your every post.
Either:
A. Condemn the other Primarchs as conspiring treachery against the Emperor, for defying Nikaea with less reason than Magnus.
Or
B. Admit you were wrong.
This is not hard.
Not especially, given the nature of the scene in question.
The nature being that the closest confidant to Sanguinius (Next to Raldoran) believes Rune Priests fall under the Edict?
I don't know if you read what you quoted. If the Emperor meant something different than what he said, he could have said that instead.
You hold onto your one quote. I'll hold onto my several.
"‘How long has it been since the great conclave of Emperor and his sons on Nikaea?’ Annellus asked, and Kano knew his suspicions were correct.
‘Long enough,’ he replied, schooling his features. ‘I was not there to see the Angel and his brothers come before their father–’
‘But you know full well what was wrought in that place.’ It was not a question.
Kano’s patience thinned. ‘Don’t be obtuse, Warden. Of course I know. The decree absolute. The Edict of Nikaea.’
‘A command from the Emperor of Mankind himself,’ Annellus went on, his words taking on a lecturing tone. ‘A warning about the dark potential of the powers of the warp.’ The Warden
turned back to face him. ‘A command Sanguinius echoed, to forbid the use of preternatural powers within the Legiones Astartes. A command the Blood Angels accepted without
question.’"
Nothing about Librarians specifically. And sorry for the lack of page numbers, I have the book on pdf so can't really give an accurate page number.
Also, I found proof that Azkaellon was, in fact, accompanying Sanguinius at Nikaea.
"At first, Raldoron had been honoured to accept the duty of accompanying his primarch to the Emperor’s gathering; Azkaellon had, predictably, not seen the sense of it, but the Angel
knew it would mean more to arrive among his great brothers not just with the golden seraphs of his Sanguinary Guard, but among the host of his most elite warriors. Raldoron’s pride
swelled; the chance to represent his Legion and his company in the presence of several primarchs and the Emperor himself… Many Blood Angels went for centuries without ever having
such an opportunity."
The Space Wolves obeyed the letter of the command, but not the spirit, which was that Space Marines should not employ the use of psychic power in battle. Or do the Rune Priests not fall under that distinction? And if the Edict did indeed allow Rune Priests continued usage of their powers, why do the Space Wolves conceal the nature of a Rune Priest's abilities?
Factually wrong and begging the question.
I am not sure you know what "begging the question" means.
"Begging the question" would imply that I am asserting my conclusion is true based on my conclusion being true.
I am asserting my conclusion is true because the text supports it.
"For the first time, Azkaellon noted the presence of a Rune Priest standing in Redknife’s shadow. The Wolf cleric’s armour was dressed with scrimshawed bones, his open-faced
helm apparently carved out of a great canine’s skull. He was careful to stay at his commander’s shoulder, his hand forever on the hilt of a serrated force sword. The Sanguinary Guard
unconsciously mirrored the priest’s gesture, his gauntlet falling to the pommel of his glaive encarmine. ‘I see that is so,’ he said. ‘Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol,
but you also defy the Emperor’s edict.’ He jutted his chin towards the Rune Priest. ‘You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the Legiones Astartes.’
The cleric answered in a tongue that Azkaellon could not understand, but he knew enough to recognise a Fenrisian dialect when he heard it. Redknife gave a brief nod. ‘My battlebrother
Stiel is not a witch-mind, Blood Angel, and he forgives you for your error. It is a common misconception.’"
Try not to state people are factually wrong about books you haven't actually read.
Omegus wrote: Anyway, I don't think Magnus was punished so much for defying the edict, per se, although that was a convenient excuse.
YES! This is a big problem. As far as I can tell, the issue that got Magnus in trouble did not necessarily have anything to do with his Legion's Librarius department per se. After all, the Emperor did not decree that Magnus himself could not use psychic powers unless we talk about the spirit rather than the letter of the Edict. Going by the letter, Magnus got punished and Russ did not. Now, what Magnus did was obviously much more destructive than anything Russ could do but even so ...
Manchu wrote: As I mentioned above under the headline "points we can agree on," I'm not sure how not disbanding his Librarius department or allowing former members to practice sorcery is the cause of Magnus's breaching of the Palace wards, the event that triggered the Emperor to send Russ after Magnus. Was Magnus only able to achieve this because he violated the letter of the Edict? Possibly. I don't recall. But I see no reason that it must necessarily have been the case.
I already agreed with you twice ITT that Magnus could likely only be punished for violating the Edict in the HH on a technicality, or as you put it that the edict was a convenient excuse. I am not sure to what extent Magnus relied on the conditions forbidden in the Edict to earn the Emperor's wrath but the real issue was him using sorcery (and breaching the Palace wards) rather than not disbanding his Librarius department or allowing former members to use psychic powers. The idea that Magnus was punished for violating the Edict is from IA and Visions of Heresy. Those sources are contradicted by A Thousand Sons in this regard.
Void__Dragon wrote: ‘A command from the Emperor of Mankind himself,’ Annellus went on, his words taking on a lecturing tone. ‘A warning about the dark potential of the powers of the warp.’
We have a quotation from the Emperor and a quotation from someone else paraphrasing the Emperor. This isn't a new argument.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Space Wolves obeyed the letter of the command, but not the spirit
Conclusory. The spirit of the Edict could easily be "the way Magnus does things is wrong."
Void__Dragon wrote: "Begging the question" would imply that I am asserting my conclusion is true based on my conclusion being true.
You assume Redknife lied because you argue he and SW generally are liars. And you're also factually wrong: Redknife denied being a witch-mind. I don't think you're reading the thread as I have already addressed this. The point of the scene is to portray suspicion between the BA and SW. The author intentionally chooses phrases to heighten the ambiguity to this end.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: How could Nikaea be a foundation of imperial law 10,000 years later if the entirety of Nikaea concerned a subject so narrow as the disbandment of the Librarius organizations
As I have posted twice already, the Emperor says in A Thousand Sons:
But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes.
This is a precedent.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: There are different versions of this story, so believe what you want.
And Leman Russ is a hypocrite in NONE of the versions. The difference is that Magnus comes off much better in A Thousand Sons than in IA or even VoH.
Hey man, quite alright - it takes two to tango and I was having fun digging around for quotes. Anyway I think we can agree there are contradictions all throughout the fluff, even sometimes within the Horus Heresy series, and I think as a result everyone ends up carrying their own personal version of things around.
And like someone said above, the fact that people both inside and outside the universe seem confused about Nikaea probably indicates that it really isn't clear-cut. You've done a good job backing your stuff up and it's all kind of subjective so I won't say you're wrong at all, I simply interpret things differently. Just for curiosity's sake, I'll look at my old codexes and whatnot tonight to see what I can find about the old version of Nikaea.
Omegus wrote: It is worth remembering that McNeil has botched the characters of both Horus and the Emperor, and doesn't seem to understand the HH timeline, so all of his contributions are questionable.
Whether Russ is guilty of anything, it is a RAW vs RAI argument. I can't wait to read Scars for this very reason.
How has McNeill botched the character of the Emperor?
You're so hung up on Outcast Dead.
What of ADB, who has botched Leman Russ and Magnus? And who generally doesn't seem to give a feth about other writers' precedents.
I can't help it, it was traumatizing.
I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.
I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.
How the hell was Lorgar a panty waist fool, the guy met with thirsting Gods and started the largest war in human history and watched what he thought was his own death at the hands of Corax.
He was a big pansy in First Heretic, first crying about having to be a warrior, then crying about Monarchia, then being led around by Erebus and Kor Phaeron, then sending Argel Tal into the Eye before daring to venture in himself.
I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.
I'm just not sure why Magnus, after being resigned to his fate in A Thousand Sons, is still straddling the fence on whether he should join Horus several books later.
He backed away from that resignation when he stepped out of his pyramid to fight Russ. And again when he beseeched Tzeench for help.
At this point he is still conflicted between his guilt over breaking the Emperor's toys and his rage over his world being thrown to the Wolves. Lorgar pretty much calls him out on his ambivalence.
They might have thought he was doing that but by the time you read Betrayer you see that he obviously has a mind of his own.
Argel Tal into the Eye before daring to venture in himself.
He was told to do this, also he was the first primarch to do this at all.
If their were Cowards i'd name them, Alpharious for thinking that wiping out humanity to stop chaos would be a good idea or something the Emperor wanted he's the moral coward(assuming that was his intention he's way to complicated to know for sure), then Corax for fleeing the Night Haunter, then Guillman fleeing Angron and Lorgar and for failing to help Terra while he built his own Empire. Not sure if Lorgar cried but can you really fault anyone for shedding a tear in 40k, they are primarchs but that makes them even more aware of the grimdarkness all around. I have to say you can't call someone cowardly or weak who looks looks death in the eye and in so many word says "get on with it already".
Omegus wrote: It is worth remembering that McNeil has botched the characters of both Horus and the Emperor, and doesn't seem to understand the HH timeline, so all of his contributions are questionable.
Whether Russ is guilty of anything, it is a RAW vs RAI argument. I can't wait to read Scars for this very reason.
How has McNeill botched the character of the Emperor?
You're so hung up on Outcast Dead.
What of ADB, who has botched Leman Russ and Magnus? And who generally doesn't seem to give a feth about other writers' precedents.
I can't help it, it was traumatizing.
I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.
I loved the scene with Lorgar and Magnus.
Lorgar said nothing to Magnus that was not factually true and deservedly took him down a peg or two.
Dude's a primarch so he will be pretty damn clever compared to the average person, however he's quite blunt and easily read compared to most other primarchs. I'd like to think of him as quite thick naturally but an unconscious genius, with some of the best tactical knowledge ever.
They might have thought he was doing that but by the time you read Betrayer you see that he obviously has a mind of his own.
Argel Tal into the Eye before daring to venture in himself.
He was told to do this, also he was the first primarch to do this at all.
Okay, he didn't exactly cry, but moping about, flogging yourself, and smearing ash on your face for days on end amounts to the same thing.
And yes, as Lorgar said himself: "I am not a general like my brothers. And I refuse that destiny. I will not blindly walk the same paths they already tread. I will never understand tactics and logistics with the effortless ease of Guilliman or the Lion. I will never possess the skill with a blade shown by Fulgrim or the Khan. Am I diminished because I recognise my faults? I do not believe so."
His discussions with Magnus also revolved around him seeking his role in the Emperor's vision, and it wasn't that of a warrior or commander.
The Daemon messengers told him, "If you don't trust us and are scared to venture in yourself, send your most trusted disciples in your stead." He later flat out apologized to Argel Tal for not having the courage to venture in himself. And yes, by the time of Betrayer he is a completely different person. His subsequent interactions with his mentor and Erebus show him as quite bitter/disillusioned, since he sees their raw ambition (rather than embracing Lorgar's "pure" ideology).
Magnus needs to likewise sack up, but if Battle of the Fangwank is any indication, he's still ambivalent thousands of years later.
Omegus wrote: He backed away from that resignation when he stepped out of his pyramid to fight Russ. And again when he beseeched Tzeench for help.
At this point he is still conflicted between his guilt over breaking the Emperor's toys and his rage over his world being thrown to the Wolves. Lorgar pretty much calls him out on his ambivalence.
He did both of those things while:
A. Having no expectation of surviving his fight with Russ, nor any real desire to. Tzeentch saving him as well seems to have just been another part of the Changer of Way's schemes that Magnus was not privy to you.
and
B. Deliberately holding off the Space Wolves for the sole purpose of saving his Legion. He originally wanted the Thousand Sons to not fight at all, but when they disobeyed his desires, he found himself forced to take action to save them.
He did not battle Leman Russ out of anger. When he appears to Ahriman, despite the power he is channeling, he feels only despair, horror, and anguish at what is occurring, yet his words make it clear that he knows it all has to happen.
A Thousand Sons, more than any other book in the series, follows the epic heroic mythologies that the series is based on. The lesson Magnus learns at the end is that no matter how much he learned, no matter how hard he fought, and no matter how powerful he grew, he could not fight Fate. The Greek and Norse mythologies of old held this to be the most pivotal and unassailable foundation of their myths.
Indeed, how does Magnus' final scene, where he ascends from his black tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers, end?
' “My sons,” said Magnus with weary resignation, “welcome to the Planet of the Sorcerers.” '
Magnus had resigned himself to his fate in A Thousand Sons. So I am not sure what the feth Magnus' problem is in Aurelian and Betrayer. It is really just what you said. ADB is using these scenes are padding in an attempt to overcompensate on Lorgar's behalf, in an attempt to defy many reader's first impressions of him.
Magnus needs to likewise sack up, but if Battle of the Fangwank is any indication, he's still ambivalent thousands of years later.
It isn't that Magnus is ambivalent in Battle of the Fang. It's that he apparently is the only Primarch to suffer from senility.
Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's".
Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's
That is because most of these books are, at best, average pulp fiction. The rest are just terribly written and terribly plotted. Magnus forgets his powers because it's convenient to the plot that he do so, otherwise its just Magnus going around, owning things with god-like sorcery... and 40K can't have a villain that actually makes use of the powers at their disposal.
Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's
That is because most of these books are, at best, average pulp fiction. The rest are just terribly written and terribly plotted. Magnus forgets his powers because it's convenient to the plot that he do so, otherwise its just Magnus going around, owning things with god-like sorcery... and 40K can't have a villain that actually makes use of the powers at their disposal.
If that were to happen, the IOM would be screwed, and we can't have that now, can we?
I hate the way he is portrayed in Battle of the Fang. I mean at one stage he rips through 6 dreadnoughts at once but then suddenly he is loosing to a single dreadnought in a 1v1. 5 space wolfs are supposedly beating him in single combat. The most powerful Primarch!
It always feels like the writer believes Leman Russ is the more powerful of the two.
Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's
That is because most of these books are, at best, average pulp fiction. The rest are just terribly written and terribly plotted. Magnus forgets his powers because it's convenient to the plot that he do so, otherwise its just Magnus going around, owning things with god-like sorcery... and 40K can't have a villain that actually makes use of the powers at their disposal.
If that were to happen, the IOM would be screwed, and we can't have that now, can we?
Indeed. And while I can let a little plot-armor slide, it's to be expected in pulpy fiction, after all, it's getting to the point now that it seems almost as if it's a self-parody. I'm expecting characters to start overtly breaking the fourth wall, like so:
"By the Throne! That was amazing! How can a man, even a Space Marine, do such things?!"
"Because this is a tale of my heroism, that's why!"
Without having read the previous 7 pages, which I am certain focus on the many contradicting details of fluff and the differences between mythical legend and novel interpretation, I submit that, perhaps, Leman Russ was both a brute and a hero - for with a warrior culture, these things depend very much on perspective, especially if inspected from our cozy warm rooms in real world Earth in the year 2013.
It's just something that immediately sprang to mind, as I vividly remember Andy Hoare describing the Sisters of Battle as both fanatical zealots and paragons of virtue, all depending on which world's standards you apply.
, Horus would trick him, and Lion would use Corswain as backstaber, he,he,he...
Although even in that case you could arguably justify it with him not being sure if the Emperor is alive or not (in which case, SOMEONE has to be heir and take charge, and it obviously isn't going to be Horus, what with him being traitor and everything)
