At the time, I hadn't decided on whether I was going or not to the tournament yet. However, after this practice game, I decided that it would be fun to go and check it out (the Contest of Champions). This practice game was against Grant's ultra-tough, super-nasty Eldar/Dark Eldar Seer Council Mechdar, the list that he was bringing to the tournament. I just thought it would be fun to have a Deathstar vs Deathstar Deathmatch and so brought my grey knights. But rather than bring my NecroKnights (GK's + Necrons), I decided to try out a pure Draigowing build.
May the best Deathstar win.
2250 Draigowing Grey Knights vs Deer Council Eldar/Dark Eldar
His army has evolved since I first started playing against it back in 5th. Back then, he ran a dual-deathstar build with the seer council and a beastpack unit. Fast forward almost a year later and now he is running his seer council with a mainly MSU shooty mech build. Can I beat his army? For that, I'm going to go with my:
Top 10 Reasons why the Grey Knights will win.
1. Paladins are arguably the seer council's worse matchup. His seer council does most of its damage in Assault. Against the paladins, that means normal weapons (which wound on 2+) against AP2/3 force weapons. Both combat and assault favor my paladinstar.
2. I've got good psychic defense. Reinforced Aegis means his farseers will be casting maledictions/witchfire attacks on LD 6. His warlocks? On LD 5. On top of that, I've got a 5+/4+ Deny attempt aganst his farseer/warlocks.
3. If I can get Misfortune, I have a way to counter his Fortune.
4. Psyfleman dreads will just blow his vehicles out of the sky.
5. I am intimately familiar with Grant's army. I've played against them many times and know just what their strengths and weaknesses are.
6. He cannot reliably take out my my stormraven. In an objectives game, that means I can pretty much drop off 1 of my troops on an objective anytime I want.
7. I am going 2nd. I will have the last word in terms of objectives.
8. I plan to get the beta-strike on my opponent with my Reserves. With Draigo's Psychic Communion, I can manipulate my reserves to come in when I want them to.
9. Board control. Once I get my paladins into the middle, there is no shifting them off of it. The only thing my opponent will be able to do is to try to shoot them off of it.
10. 2 words: mindstrike missiles.
Deldar:
I think Grant's Deldar army is much improved. I really like the fact that he has made his army more shooty. It actually somewhat mirrors my army, which is a shooty deathstar build as well. I think his army is going in the right direction. Anyways, why will my opponent win (can he win?)?
Top 10 Reasons why Deldar will win.
1. Psychic powers. With 3 farseers and 10 warlocks, his army has got to be the most awesome, psychically-charged army in the entire 40K universe! There are just so many powers that are so good against my paladins - Terrify, Horrify, Jinx, Misfortune, Hallucination, Doom, Puppet Master, you name it.
2. Eldar has a great chance to get one of the best psychic powers in the game - Death Mission! (I jest, of course I am talking about that "other" Eldar power.)
3. With the Baron, that means I can't lock his deathstar in combat forever. With the Shard of Anaris, that means I can't run them down in combat. Then again, I'm in terminator armor anyways.
4. He's got some nasty firepower against infantry. Lots of dakka.
5. Grisly trophies will allow him to re-roll any failed psychic test or Morale tests.
6. In case I try to cast Misfortune (or any other maledictions) at his deathstar, he has a 4+ chance to Deny it, followed by a re-roll from Fortune.
7. Eldar mobility in Hammer & Anvil deployment. 'Nuff said.
8. Going 1st, he will get the alpha-strike. Not only will he get the alpha-strike, but he will have 2 turns to shoot at me before my reserves even come in for my beta-strike.
9. The Crucible of Malediction is an X-factor. I'm not too familiar with it, but it could potentially ruin my day.
10. His army has got a lot of redundancy. Killing just a few of his units shouldn't affect his output too much. I need to cripple his support units in order to really hurt him. That may be a task easier said than done.
Deldar deployment. He deploys right along his table edge to ensure that he is out of range of my dreads (due to Night-fight).
We are using a Necron annihilation barge as a proxy for 1 venom that my opponent forgot to bring.
Grey Knight deployment.
I deploy my paladinstar along with my henchmen and 1 dread. I put the dread and henchmen behind the LOS-blocking tower.
I use Grand Strategy to give 2 of my dreads Scout. They will be out-flanking.
Soladins will deepstrike. 5-man paladin unit will be in the stormraven.
Overview of our deployment.
You can actually see the 4 objectives from this perspective.
Finally, Grant infiltrates his rangers behind the hill in my deployment zone and out of LOS.
I don't attempt to seize and so we begin.....
....but before that, I give my opponent some excellent advice: "Grant, when in doubt, and if you have your back against the wall, just cast Death Mission and all will be taken care of...."
Even with the re-roll from the DE venoms (Grisly Trophies), 1 warlock dies to Perils while trying to cast his powers. All the other elder psykers successfully cast their powers. Farseers cast Guide/Prescience on the venoms.
Deldar movement.
Seer council turbo-boosts to the right. Rangers move up onto the hill.
Rangers try to take out my henchmen for First Blood but only kill 1.
They then roll low for their Battle Focus move (even with the re-roll from Fleet) and fail to make it down the hill.
The rest of his army fires at my paladinstar and manages a grand total of 1 Wound. But to be fair, serpents try to take out my dread and his right-most units could not fire due to the LOS-blocking terrain in the middle.
Grey Knights 1
Spoiler:
I cast Prescience. Some of my guys advance. However, my paladins move towards his rangers (and seer council) in order to shoot at them.
I should have been more careful, as I am moving right into the range of his psychic powers!
I take out his rangers for First Blood.
Dread, however, fails to take out a venom due to Night-fight.
Deldar 2
Spoiler:
Skimmers move.
Right serpent immobilizes itself on terrain.
The seer council prepares to assault.
Here is where my mistake comes back to bite me. Although Grant didn't mark down which warlock had which power, ultimately it is my mistake for not paying attention enough. I move into range of his Warlock with Jinx. He casts it on me and fails the 1st time. He then re-rolls and passes on the 2nd try (but only because he was able to use his Warlord's LD, otherwise, he would have failed again on his own LD). Finally, with a 4+ chance to Deny, I fail to do so!
You are now looking at terminators with a 3+ save only.
His resulting shooting is devastating. I don't make enough saves (plus FNP) and lose 4 paladins (including my warding stave) as well as Draigo!
He also takes out my dread with his shooting.
The seer council then attempts the multi-charge. Even with a re-rollable 2+ armour/cover save, I manage to shoot down 1 jetlock with Overwatch....
....but they still make the assault.
Combat is devastating. He issues a challenge. I accept with Coteaz, not realizing that it is the Shard of Anaris who is issuing the challenge. He then insta-gibs Coteaz. Overall, I roll pooring on my saves (and FNP) and lose another 3 paladins as well as my henchman (keep in mind that his other 2 farseers have AP2 weapons)!
Wow! What a disaster! Besides my own mistake, his Warlord trait really screwed me over! If not for that Warlord trait, he wouldn't have been able to get off Jinx on my paladins. Of course the dice didn't do me any favors either, but now I'm going to be scrambling for my paladin lives! That was an absolutely horrendous turn for me!
Grey Knights 2
Spoiler:
Without Draigo, I have no way to control my reserves.
Soladin drops down near his immobilized serpent.
Actually, all 3 of my soladins come in.
As does 1 dread.
However, my stormraven and other dread fail to show up.
Soladin perils and fails to cast Holocaust.
Dread shoots at his serpent in the butt....but he makes both of his cover saves!
Finally, in combat, for some reason, I only lose 1 paladin this turn.
My opponent decides not to Hit-&-Run.
Deldar 3
Spoiler:
His seer council actually decides not to cast any powers this turn in fear of over-killing my paladins. He wants to stay locked in combat still, at least until after my raven comes in.
Deldar movement. He gets his Haemonculus with Crucible in the center of all 3 of my soladins.
Serpent prepares to shoot my dread in the butt this time.
He unleashes his Crucible. I then fail LD on both of my soladins and lose them both.
Serpent shoots down my dread. The rest of his shooting puts 1W on my last soladin.
Man, when it rains, it pours. Yikes!
I try to kill off my paladins in combat but now they wouldn't fail a save. Dice, where were you when I needed you on Turn 2?!?
Grey Knights 3
Spoiler:
My last dread comes in but still no raven (with 5-man paladin squad inside).
My dread shoots his serpent in the a$$ once again....and once again, he makes all his jink cover saves!
So far, my opponent has made every single cover/flickerfield save that he's had to make in this game.
Finally, I will get my chance to kill a serpent. Hammerdin prepares to smash it to pieces....
....but then dies to Perils while casting Hammerhand and before he could strike.
Man, this game is fething ridiculous. At this point, I just had to laugh. It's just one of those games where nothing goes right for you but everything goes right for your opponent.
Apothecary/banner down. 1 more paladin to go.
Deldar 4
Spoiler:
Venoms start heading for the objectives.
Will he survive?
No!
He finally finishes off my paladinstar. Fortunately for me, he rolls only 1" for his consolidation.
You know what that means, right?
Grey Knights 4
Spoiler:
Have you heard of the saying, "winner winner chicken dinner"?
Well, I'm feasting on venison tonight. My raven would do anything for a buck.
BAM!!! After I unleash all my mindstrikes, only his farseers and the Baron are left. The entire council is gone.
Deldar 5
Spoiler:
Farseers go after my raven.
His wracks (proxied using his kabalite warriors) swarm the objective.
Currently, he's got 2 objectives.
They (the council) chuck prescience spears at it but I just laugh at them.
Then his wave serpent takes off 1 HP from my raven.
Grey Knights 5
Spoiler:
Ok, things are looking rather bleak. It is almost impossible for me to pull off a win, but I still have a very slim chance of pulling off the tie. In order to do that, I need to do the following/have the following to happen:
1. I need to grab 1 objective.
2. I need to contest 1 of his objectives.
3. I need to make it into his deployment zone for Linebreaker.
4. I need for the game to end.
Well, let me start in reverse. The game does end this turn (we rolled for it), but do I achieve my miracle?
Raven moves 36".
Paladins then deepstrike from it. I need an accurate deepstrike. However, they scatter! Fortunate for me, the scatter is very slight - only about 3".
I do make a mistake here. I actually drop them off in the Movement phase. You can only drop them when the raven goes flat-out, but it wouldn't have made much of a difference. I would have just moved it 18" in the Movement phase and then go flat-out 18-36" in the Shooting phase to drop them off.
Now I can make it if I am able to run about 4-5".
I only run 3". NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I am contesting his objective. My lead paladin also makes it into his deployment zone for Linebreaker. However, I am about 1" short from my objective!!!
Deldar holds 1 objective.
I'm 1" short of my objective so I hold 0.
He's got Linebreaker and Warlord. I've got Linebreaker and First Blood.
Deldar wins it 5-2. Damn....so close and yet so far....
However, my opponent makes a huge mistake in this game.
It was the Warlord Trait where his units within 12" could use his Warlord's LD. Now in the game, we played it as his Warlocks could use their Warlord's (the Farseer's) LD for psychic tests as well. However, p.67 of BRB explicitly prevents any LD borrowing for the purposes of psychic tests. The psychic tests are always done using the leadership value of the psyker who is casting the power.
His Warlock only passed his re-rollable psychic power by using the LD of his Warlord. On his own, he failed the test to cast Jinx, even with the re-rolls (he would be casting on LD4 due to Reinforced Aegis from my dread). Thus, they would have failed to cast Jinx on my paladinstar, which would have totally changed the outcome of the game.
As it is my opponent's mistake and it was a game-changing mistake, I will have to declare this game a No Contest (or Draw) and that a Rematch is in order.
GK minor victory- Psyflemen are hard to take out without dropping shields, which would lead to pain from the Psycannons. Paladins will lock down two objectives due to absence of Lances, while he avoids touching them in CC.
jifel wrote: GK minor victory- Psyflemen are hard to take out without dropping shields, which would lead to pain from the Psycannons. Paladins will lock down two objectives due to absence of Lances, while he avoids touching them in CC.
Yeah, that is one of my plans. Let him expend his serpent shields and then shoot down his wave serpents. I'm going to focus on taking out all of his support units while ignoring his seer council for the most part.
Yeah. His army is the toughest army I have faced in 6E, and I've faced a lot of good armies before.
Back in 5th, I used to pound on his army more often than not. I guess it helps for him to play against me, Reecius and Janthkin on a consistent basis. He's now gotten really good with them. Now the shoe is on the other foot. I'm having more trouble with his deer council than vice versa.
However, I have not played against them with my necrons yet. I still suspect that my wraithwing crons can take on his army.
Just as I suspect that my paladins should be able to pull off a narrow victory here.
Yeah. His army is the toughest army I have faced in 6E, and I've faced a lot of good armies before.
Back in 5th, I used to pound on his army more often than not. I guess it helps for him to play against me, Reecius and Janthkin on a consistent basis. He's now gotten really good with them. Now the shoe is on the other foot. I'm having more trouble with his deer council than vice versa.
However, I have not played against them with my necrons yet. I still suspect that my wraithwing crons can take on his army.
Just as I suspect that my paladins should be able to pull off a narrow victory here.
I think much depends on the powers Grant gets, Hallucination is just brutal against units like the palliestar.
The crucible of maledictions effectiveness will be largely determined by what you guys agreed upon to be counted as psykers. Technically speaking I think only Coteaz and Draigo could be affected by it, but that could be largely up for debate. Either way I suspect a very narrow victory for the knights due to the deldars lack of dl's.
We play the Brotherhood of Psykers as just 1 random guy in the unit gets affected by the Crucible. Of course that would be in addition to Coteaz and Draigo if their unit was in range of the Crucible.
I ca see two turns of Mind Strike missiles winning this game. Also, I see the resiliency of Driago and Co to be too great to effectively combat. That being said he does have an edge in ability to take objectives. If the Game goes 5 rounds I'm calling Minor win for GK, Turns 6+ Major Victory Grey Knights.
thanatos67 wrote: Man i hope those GK make VENISON out of the deer council! GET IT? VENISON!...oh man.
I think the dreads could a a real pain for the eldar, this ones a tough call.
Horrible, yet I still spilled my coffee laughing.
I do think that GK win this more often than not, but if his wave serpents have early success against the dreads then his venoms could win a battle of attrition with the GK killing off the smaller units as they come in while staying out of range of any return fire.
thanatos67 wrote: Man i hope those GK make VENISON out of the deer council! GET IT? VENISON!...oh man.
I think the dreads could a a real pain for the eldar, this ones a tough call.
Oh, deer me.
That joke is just too fawny!
Here, let me give you a buck for your comedic skills.
I'm expecting a lot from my dreads, though those 4+ holo-fielded jink saves on his serpents are going to be darn tough to penetrate.
Grant Theft Auto wrote: Ooo everyones in for a treat. Here comes the most epic fight of 6th edition, this was definitely an awesome game.
Yeah, thanks for the game, Grant. We will get our epic Necron-Deldar showdown sometime in the future. Probably at the next CoC tourney. My goal for my competitive crons is still to crush any upstart eldar/tau armies that get in their way. Muhahahahaha.
Zagman wrote: I ca see two turns of Mind Strike missiles winning this game. Also, I see the resiliency of Driago and Co to be too great to effectively combat. That being said he does have an edge in ability to take objectives. If the Game goes 5 rounds I'm calling Minor win for GK, Turns 6+ Major Victory Grey Knights.
He does have a chance against them. If he can somehow get off Misfortune or Jinx on them, then he's got a shot to take them down.
However, Misfortune will be on a LD 6 psychic test (though re-rollable because of Grisly Trophies) with a 5+ chance for me to Deny.
Jinx will be on a LD 5 psychic test (maybe LD 4?....don't quite remember what are the LD of the warlocks) with a 4+ chance to Deny.
Those are probably the only ways to take out my paladins. Psychic powers + volume of fire.
thanatos67 wrote: Man i hope those GK make VENISON out of the deer council! GET IT? VENISON!...oh man.
I think the dreads could a a real pain for the eldar, this ones a tough call.
Horrible, yet I still spilled my coffee laughing.
I do think that GK win this more often than not, but if his wave serpents have early success against the dreads then his venoms could win a battle of attrition with the GK killing off the smaller units as they come in while staying out of range of any return fire.
Yeah, I think it's going to boil down to whose supporting units does better. Like if Kobe and Lebron clashed. The stars will most likely neutralize each other. The winner will then probably be the team whose supporting players perform the best.
Fire Angel wrote: yeah!!! finally grey knights as i asked thanks man, really want to read this!
PALADINS!!! DESTROY THEM ALL!!!
Yeah, sorry for the wait. I actually played this game before my tournament, but then I posted my tournament reports first. But now, time to give the knights their spotlight.
Yea warlocks are ld 8 so he needs to get past a ld4 check with reinforced aegis. Even if he drops your dreads its a ld7 check which isn't great. I think he can drop at least 1.5 dreads first turn though if he plays it right. Wrap them up turn 2. AV 12 3hp is so bad this edition verse things that negate cover. Funny enough his list completely lacks AT verse av14. I actually think your quad pro quo wolves would through a wrench at him.witch blades are a shadow of their former glory.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea warlocks are ld 8 so he needs to get past a ld4 check with reinforced aegis. Even if he drops your dreads its a ld7 check which isn't great. I think he can drop at least 1.5 dreads first turn though if he plays it right. Wrap them up turn 2. AV 12 3hp is so bad this edition verse things that negate cover. Funny enough his list completely lacks AT verse av14. I actually think your quad pro quo wolves would through a wrench at him.witch blades are a shadow of their former glory.
Which is why I don't deploy my dreads. Well, 2 of them at least. In order to prevent his alpha-strike (and so that I could do my beta-strike). I actually use Grand Strategy to outflank 2 of my dreads. I then hide the 3rd dread in deployment in order to give my paladins some Reinforced Aegis protection.
And since we are playing H&A, that means when my dreads come in, they're going to be shooting some wave serpents in the butt unless my opponent keeps his serpents near his board edge.
Suprisingly, his seer council can take care of land raiders. They've got that +1 Strength power, which we play here as cumulative. Thus, you get enough S5-7 +2D6 armour pen hits in (+Prescience), they should be able to hurt land raiders.
This is a great example of the weaknesses of the Jetcouncil list if you don't build it right. Without any form of long ranged anti tank weaponry it has serious issues against mech lists (or indeed any list with some heavy armour) that has at least some form of counterpunch which stops you just zerging forward, if you play it right the council can't really get to the Dreads. I know the Venoms are nice (and at 2k+ the Haemonculi to get cheaper units in them is great) but imo the list would be far stronger if you swapped a couple of them out for Vibrocannons or some other form of long range high strength support unit. You only need 2-3 Venoms so you can keep the Council re-rolling powers, in this case I think the psychic defence from the Dreads could be the deciding factor in this game (that and taking Rangers over Jetbikes). I don't think you fear the Raven tbh, you should be able to bounce in and out of combat to avoid it, and with large bases and proper spacing you just lose 2 Warlocks two it (since they can't hurt the Farseers due to Ghosthelms).
Also doesn't the Crucible effect all psykers within 3D6"? I.e there is no mention of friendly psykers? It was written before allies and Dark Eldar have none, so afaik it should be hitting the Warlocks and Farseers as well. Still valuable either way, just requires a bit more finesse to use.
As usual with these lists the powers rolled can make a big difference. Terrify does nothing (you are Fearless from Draigo, but you still have ATSKNF remember), the big one in this matchup is Protect imo. Getting to a 2+ save means you ignore all the AP3 power weapons, but more importantly if you can get it off on the Paladins then they will probably lose assaults to the Council, volume of wounds can struggle against 2+, but it cleans up Marines just fine. Realistically though the only way that is going to happen is if the Council lives through multiple rounds of combat with the Paladins - first round you bounce out, 2nd you charge the Dread (and hopefully something else so you don't get shot) and then in the 3rd round you might get debuffs on the Paladins. In the best possible scenario (the Paladins charging the Council, in the top of the 2nd turn) that is going to happen the bottom of turn 4, and I can't see the Council having the numbers at that stage.
The Crucible is only 2d6 but I've seen people get it wrong many a time. It's their only real psychic defense besides DtW... It would be a lot better if it were 3d6.
SkaredCast wrote: The minstrike missiles will own the jetseers! As long as they dont have a bunch of warpcharge to burn on the ghosthelm.
You generate warp charge every player turn, not every game turn. If you didnt then you wouldn't be able to use force weapons unless it was your turn. Because of this Mindstrikes are completely pointless against the Farseers themselves, you would have to get 6 hits from Mindstrikes to kill 1 (i.e 3 Ravens dumping all the missiles they can in a single turn and getting clean hits on every single one). The Warlocks don't have Ghosthelms though, so are easy prey if they aren't spread.
Just wanted to ask what AP 2 weapon the farseers have? Farseers only have access to singing spears, witch blades and remnants of glory. He has already used the shard once and wild fire blades are AP 3, so I'm confused about how he got those AP 2 weapons.
On the game I would give it slightly to the grey knights, due to the eldar having very little to hurt the multiple psyflemen. Mass trength 7 is fun and all, but is it enough? Also misfortune will be horrible if it goes off, cancelling out fortune and making them vulnerable. Its because of misfortune I always take one runes of warding, simple because if I get misfortuned then that's a very expensive unit up in smokes if I can't make a 4+ deny the witch. I'd much rather make a 2+ for 10 points then have a what? 1000pt unit get torrented down?
I would also of said that he probably could of got a little bit of AT in there, maybe by down grading a serpent to jetbikes and dropping a venom he could fit in something. But that said, I won't count them out. Ghosthelm placement makes the unit surprisingly resilient to mindstrikes, fortune and protect make the unit undeniably very survivable. That being said, I simply can't understand why he continued to roll on divination? Was e gunning for misfortune? I think that he should of rolled for warlocks first, then seeing he had two horrifies should of taken at least 1 psykic shriek. Prescience and misfortune are the only things he wants on divination, and when he didn't get it while throwing an entire farseer into it he should of when for telepathy in my opinion. Although, crucible of malediction used in conjunction with a horrify or two would be a scary concept, forcing even draigo to take a 50/50 chance of simply being removed from play, but reinforced aegis should help prevent it.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: I would laugh so hard if the Crucible of Malediction went off and draigo bit the dust.
If for no other reason then to see it actually have an effect for once. So many DE artifacts are such rubbish lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dozer Blades wrote: The Crucible is only 2d6 but I've seen people get it wrong many a time. It's their only real psychic defense besides DtW... It would be a lot better if it were 3d6.
Ummm... You must get it wrong all the time because its definitely 3D6". But it's still awful so worry
He'll need some incredible luck just getting it in an effective spot let alone stacking powers and killing anyone. IMO the shattershard is the best arcane item.
SkaredCast wrote: The minstrike missiles will own the jetseers! As long as they dont have a bunch of warpcharge to burn on the ghosthelm.
You generate warp charge every player turn, not every game turn. If you didnt then you wouldn't be able to use force weapons unless it was your turn. Because of this Mindstrikes are completely pointless against the Farseers themselves, you would have to get 6 hits from Mindstrikes to kill 1 (i.e 3 Ravens dumping all the missiles they can in a single turn and getting clean hits on every single one). The Warlocks don't have Ghosthelms though, so are easy prey if they aren't spread.
Agreed. Minstrikes are dangerous mainly to the warlocks, not really to the farseers....unless they're clumped up and you're running 3 stormravens.
LValx wrote: Paladins are good vs Seers in my experience too. I imagine the Paladins win, though Serpents may do very well against the Dreadnoughts.
Yeah, I've played Grant twice in a deathstar-vs-deathstar matchmatch and both times, my paladins beat his seer council. However, that was before the new Elder codex came out. Even though they've lost a guaranteed Fortune, IMO they are actually much more dangerous now than they were before.
tetsuo666 wrote: Sorry i don't understand how Edar player can have 5 HQ !?
Double-FOC = double Primary + double Allied attachments. That means up to 4 Primary HQ's + 4 min troops and 2 Allied HQ's +2 min troops.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Just wanted to ask what AP 2 weapon the farseers have? Farseers only have access to singing spears, witch blades and remnants of glory. He has already used the shard once and wild fire blades are AP 3, so I'm confused about how he got those AP 2 weapons.
On the game I would give it slightly to the grey knights, due to the eldar having very little to hurt the multiple psyflemen. Mass trength 7 is fun and all, but is it enough? Also misfortune will be horrible if it goes off, cancelling out fortune and making them vulnerable. Its because of misfortune I always take one runes of warding, simple because if I get misfortuned then that's a very expensive unit up in smokes if I can't make a 4+ deny the witch. I'd much rather make a 2+ for 10 points then have a what? 1000pt unit get torrented down?
I would also of said that he probably could of got a little bit of AT in there, maybe by down grading a serpent to jetbikes and dropping a venom he could fit in something. But that said, I won't count them out. Ghosthelm placement makes the unit surprisingly resilient to mindstrikes, fortune and protect make the unit undeniably very survivable. That being said, I simply can't understand why he continued to roll on divination? Was e gunning for misfortune? I think that he should of rolled for warlocks first, then seeing he had two horrifies should of taken at least 1 psykic shriek. Prescience and misfortune are the only things he wants on divination, and when he didn't get it while throwing an entire farseer into it he should of when for telepathy in my opinion. Although, crucible of malediction used in conjunction with a horrify or two would be a scary concept, forcing even draigo to take a 50/50 chance of simply being removed from play, but reinforced aegis should help prevent it.
Alex.
I believe the AP2 weapons may be from the Iyanden supplement (I don't own it so can't say for sure). I believe he is running 1 Primary from the normal codex and 1 Primary from the Iyanden.
It won't be easy to get Misfortune off. He'll have a 4+ Deny + re-roll from Fortune. That means there is a 75% chance of him blocking the power. And yeah, I'm pretty sure he was trying for Misfortune, though Prescience can also be very handy for the rest of his army (the venoms).
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Powerguy wrote: This is a great example of the weaknesses of the Jetcouncil list if you don't build it right. Without any form of long ranged anti tank weaponry it has serious issues against mech lists (or indeed any list with some heavy armour) that has at least some form of counterpunch which stops you just zerging forward, if you play it right the council can't really get to the Dreads. I know the Venoms are nice (and at 2k+ the Haemonculi to get cheaper units in them is great) but imo the list would be far stronger if you swapped a couple of them out for Vibrocannons or some other form of long range high strength support unit. You only need 2-3 Venoms so you can keep the Council re-rolling powers, in this case I think the psychic defence from the Dreads could be the deciding factor in this game (that and taking Rangers over Jetbikes). I don't think you fear the Raven tbh, you should be able to bounce in and out of combat to avoid it, and with large bases and proper spacing you just lose 2 Warlocks two it (since they can't hurt the Farseers due to Ghosthelms).
Also doesn't the Crucible effect all psykers within 3D6"? I.e there is no mention of friendly psykers? It was written before allies and Dark Eldar have none, so afaik it should be hitting the Warlocks and Farseers as well. Still valuable either way, just requires a bit more finesse to use.
As usual with these lists the powers rolled can make a big difference. Terrify does nothing (you are Fearless from Draigo, but you still have ATSKNF remember), the big one in this matchup is Protect imo. Getting to a 2+ save means you ignore all the AP3 power weapons, but more importantly if you can get it off on the Paladins then they will probably lose assaults to the Council, volume of wounds can struggle against 2+, but it cleans up Marines just fine. Realistically though the only way that is going to happen is if the Council lives through multiple rounds of combat with the Paladins - first round you bounce out, 2nd you charge the Dread (and hopefully something else so you don't get shot) and then in the 3rd round you might get debuffs on the Paladins. In the best possible scenario (the Paladins charging the Council, in the top of the 2nd turn) that is going to happen the bottom of turn 4, and I can't see the Council having the numbers at that stage.
IMO, his seer council can handle mech quite easily. As a matter of fact, IMO they should eat up MSU quite easily. They can also handle heavy armor. I've played against his new seer council deldar with my daemons before and they ate up my AV13 soulgrinders without much problem. Prescience + multiple Empowers (we play it here as stacking) means that they can even handle land raiders/monoliths.
He's going to try to get into combat to avoid my stormraven.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: I would laugh so hard if the Crucible of Malediction went off and draigo bit the dust.
No way am I letting that thing get near me. I'm going to blow his venom out of the sky before he can do that....
....though in all honesty, I completely forget about the wargear in the game. It's just one of those esoteric wargears that most people just don't remember....or just don't care about.
Lol, I really would not worry about the crucible, IMO they really F'd up and made to many of the dark eldar arcane artifacts double random ie. random range plus ________.
I don't think I would have gambled FB turn one with the rangers. 5 shots for 3 hits and 2 wounds.... nah wait a turn and profit. Hopefully he doesn't take any other unnecessary risks this game.
Red Corsair wrote: Lol, I really would not worry about the crucible, IMO they really F'd up and made to many of the dark eldar arcane artifacts double random ie. random range plus ________.
I don't think I would have gambled FB turn one with the rangers. 5 shots for 3 hits and 2 wounds.... nah wait a turn and profit. Hopefully he doesn't take any other unnecessary risks this game.
With a little bit of luck, the Crucible can be quite powerful against the right army. In this case, it is Grant's answer to other power units like Draigowing, the Screamerstar, another seer council and psychic armies.
With Fleet and Battle Focus, his rangers actually had a good chance to take shots at my henchmen and move back behind the hill for protection (wouldn't be able to see them then). It's just that he rolled a 1 or 2 for his run move as well as the Fleet re-roll.
But besides that, it is actually a shrewd move by my opponent whether he realizes it or not. First off, it keeps my paladins from advancing for 1 turn in order to deal with them. For such a slow unit like my paladins, any turn they are not advancing is a turn that my opponent is winning. Secondly, he baited me into moving towards his rangers (in order to get most of my guns in range) and more importantly, into the range of his maledictions.
Pretty sure rangers can of battle focus after firing heavy weapons.
Also, a unit of 13 psykers and you aren't tracking which ones have which powers? That's just begging for abuse.
And where do you get ap2 weapons on farseers? Shard has rending but it's not ap2 without it. I haven't seen the artifact list for iyanden, but if you're using double FO the primary detachments have to be same codex. I'm assuming that's the same for supplements.
Seems to me like sloppy prep/play is leaving a lot of room for shenanigans.
With a little bit of luck, the Crucible can be quite powerful against the right army. In this case, it is Grant's answer to other power units like Draigowing, the Screamerstar, another seer council and psychic armies.
I actually could see it being decent against heralds LD7 or Warlocks 8 but seriously you need to surprise your opponent by not telling him what it is/does or he needs to be stupid for you to be able to use on those units IMO. The screamer star and eldar have such awesome shooting they'll just down his ride in short order.
pretty unlikely but funny he got 2/3 of those paladins
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS now you know how your opponents feel when you make so many res orb saves
hyv3mynd wrote: Pretty sure rangers can of battle focus after firing heavy weapons.
Also, a unit of 13 psykers and you aren't tracking which ones have which powers? That's just begging for abuse.
And where do you get ap2 weapons on farseers? Shard has rending but it's not ap2 without it. I haven't seen the artifact list for iyanden, but if you're using double FO the primary detachments have to be same codex. I'm assuming that's the same for supplements.
Seems to me like sloppy prep/play is leaving a lot of room for shenanigans.
He actually fired their shuriken pistols because he didn't want to have to snap-shoot with his rifles.
I didn't really keep track of his warlocks because, although we were bringing hard lists, this was actually just a casual and friendly game between us. But that doesn't mean my opponent wasn't keeping track himself. But it makes sense to put his guys with the malediciton powers (and whose range is the shortest) in the front so that they could cast them on the enemy. It's what I would have done as well.
Yeah, the shard is only rending. I'm not too familiar with the Iyanden codex and the wargear within, so I can't really answer you on the rest. As for the double-Primary being from the same codex, you may be right. Again, I cannot confirm without the supplement.
Anyone has info to shed some light onto this? Thanks.
hyv3mynd wrote: Pretty sure rangers can of battle focus after firing heavy weapons.
Also, a unit of 13 psykers and you aren't tracking which ones have which powers? That's just begging for abuse.
And where do you get ap2 weapons on farseers? Shard has rending but it's not ap2 without it. I haven't seen the artifact list for iyanden, but if you're using double FO the primary detachments have to be same codex. I'm assuming that's the same for supplements.
Seems to me like sloppy prep/play is leaving a lot of room for shenanigans.
I agree, you have to track those powers.
Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.
Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.
SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.
Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.
@jy2, rough rough game so far. The jetseer council gets quite a bit of a boost from gaining access to the double FOC. That third Farseer helps immensely.
2+/++ rerollable saves units needs to be something GW eventually addresses.
He actually fired their shuriken pistols because he didn't want to have to snap-shoot with his rifles.
I didn't really keep track of his warlocks because, although we were bringing hard lists, this was actually just a casual and friendly game between us. But that doesn't mean my opponent wasn't keeping track himself. But it makes sense to put his guys with the malediciton powers (and whose range is the shortest) in the front so that they could cast them on the enemy. It's what I would have done as well.
Yeah, the shard is only rending. I'm not too familiar with the Iyanden codex and the wargear within, so I can't really answer you on the rest. As for the double-Primary being from the same codex, you may be right. Again, I cannot confirm without the supplement.
Anyone has info to shed some light onto this? Thanks.
With a little bit of luck, the Crucible can be quite powerful against the right army. In this case, it is Grant's answer to other power units like Draigowing, the Screamerstar, another seer council and psychic armies.
I actually could see it being decent against heralds LD7 or Warlocks 8 but seriously you need to surprise your opponent by not telling him what it is/does or he needs to be stupid for you to be able to use on those units IMO. The screamer star and eldar have such awesome shooting they'll just down his ride in short order.
pretty unlikely but funny he got 2/3 of those paladins
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS now you know how your opponents feel when you make so many res orb saves
Partially, it was my carelessness that led me to this situation. I didn't keep track of where his Crucible guy was.
Then again, with his venoms being able to move 12", he could still get into position to try to maximize how many units he could get. And I just happened to roll high for both of my LD tests.
In the current competitive meta, I actually like the Crucible, though personally, if I was running DE (or DE allies), I wouldn't take it, especially at lower points games.
Yeah, passing all those ResOrb tests is annoying for my opponents. However, in this case, it's like I'm passing all my ResOrbs and he's failing with his dice rolls as well. It's like a double-whammy when that happens.
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Zagman wrote: I agree, you have to track those powers.
Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.
Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.
SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.
Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.
@jy2, rough rough game so far. The jetseer council gets quite a bit of a boost from gaining access to the double FOC. That third Farseer helps immensely.
2+/++ rerollable saves units needs to be something GW eventually addresses.
Ouch, this game is simply murder! You need to check his dice aren't loaded!
Seriously unlucky dude, losing draigo and all those paladins was simply bad luck. I mean you'd have to roll 4 1's to fail the look out sir!, then fail 4 3+'s from the stormshield. Also 2 paladins being killed by the crucible is terrible luck, as was the peril'ing. Burn your dice...
I would say that is that really and that bad rolls had cost you the game. You now have a seer council in your deployment zone and nothing to counter them, they will take out at least 1 unit a turn. You should try get a re match with some different dice!
hyv3mynd wrote: By playing iyanden doesn't that mean no conceal/reveal primaris for warlocks?
Unfortunately no. It only replaces it as the primaris for Spirtseers. Warlocks still have access to conceal.
Iyanden has a few issues, mainly its ability to be used in many Eldar armies with absolutely no downside. I'd like them to errata for consistency, but doubt that will happen.
hyv3mynd wrote: By playing iyanden doesn't that mean no conceal/reveal primaris for warlocks?
Unfortunately no. It only replaces it as the primaris for Spirtseers. Warlocks still have access to conceal.
Iyanden has a few issues, mainly its ability to be used in many Eldar armies with absolutely no downside. I'd like them to errata for consistency, but doubt that will happen.
Yeah being able to use artifacts and characters from both books without any drawbacks seems too good. At least they can't self ally like farsight and black legion.
My bad guys, I usually run dice on the bottom of the bases in tournaments to represent the powers, but since it was a casual game I totally forgot.
I'm working on making custom bases that I can put a counter in to represent the powers, I've found with using dice is inconvenient since they always fall off the bases because I made the bases too rocky.
It would be cool to have magnetized banners with different colors or glyphs that you could put on the back of the bikes as well, then just hand your opponent a chart with a key for all the banners.
Dozer Blades wrote: @ jy2 - please edit the topic title to denote when the batrep is complete. I don't want to read a comment that gives away the end result. Good luck!
Sure thing, dozer! I usually do....unless the title is too long to fit it in.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Ouch, this game is simply murder! You need to check his dice aren't loaded!
Seriously unlucky dude, losing draigo and all those paladins was simply bad luck. I mean you'd have to roll 4 1's to fail the look out sir!, then fail 4 3+'s from the stormshield. Also 2 paladins being killed by the crucible is terrible luck, as was the peril'ing. Burn your dice...
I would say that is that really and that bad rolls had cost you the game. You now have a seer council in your deployment zone and nothing to counter them, they will take out at least 1 unit a turn. You should try get a re match with some different dice!
Don't forget failing 4 5+ FNP's as well. I just wasn't making any of my FNP saves in the beginning.
Grant Theft Auto wrote: My bad guys, I usually run dice on the bottom of the bases in tournaments to represent the powers, but since it was a casual game I totally forgot.
I'm working on making custom bases that I can put a counter in to represent the powers, I've found with using dice is inconvenient since they always fall off the bases because I made the bases too rocky.
No worries. In casual games, I don't really care as long as it makes sense. It made sense that you would put some of those malediction warlocks in the front in order to try to cast their powers.
But in a tournament, I would ask you to mark who is who.
McBain wrote: Shame about that game, would have been interesting if the dice were a bit more balanced.
I might be reading this wrong but wasn't the game over at the end of turn 3 as you were tabled?
You only had your Raven with Palaidns inside but they were in reserve..
Nope. Tabling occurs only if you have no models at the end of the game turn. I went 2nd so my reserves still get to come in before it is the end of the game turn.
I have to ask, how did you manage to kill 10 warlocks in one phase of MS missiles? Isn't there a rule saying flyers can only fire 2 missiles per shooting phase?
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: I have to ask, how did you manage to kill 10 warlocks in one phase of MS missiles? Isn't there a rule saying flyers can only fire 2 missiles per shooting phase?
You're right. I was not aware of that. First time I played the stormraven in 6th Ed.
My bad.
The 1st 2 volleys killed the majority of his warlocks due to them being so close together. He probably had 2-3 warlocks left by the time I fired my other 2 missiles.
Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.
Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.
SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.
Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.
One slight issue, using Iyanden also changes the Primaris power for Runes of Battle, which in this case is actually huge since Conceal is what gets you the 2+ cover save. As Iyanden aren't able to ally with standard Eldar the double FOC doesn't let you get around this either, so there is no way you can take all those weapons together.
Was surprising to see him roll on Divination so much/not roll on Telepathy at all. Rolling Invis would let the Council not have to worry about casting Conceal (and killing off Warlocks) and would mean the Paladins hit them on 5's. In a Deathstar vs Deathstar fight like this Halluncination or Dominate could easily turn the game, even Psychic Shriek is pretty scary when combined with Horrify from the Warlocks. I guess he was going for Misfortune, but I'm not sure it would have been any more game changing than some of the Telepathy powers, but there are way more useless powers for the Council on Divination. Foreboding/Perfect Timing are ok, but not great for the Council, Forewarning isn't much use, Precog is ok and Scriers Gaze is pointless for this army. Once he rolled Fortune early I would have probably gone for 1-2 rolls on Divination with the other two Seers, which gets you Prescience and a couple of chances to get Misfortune, then take Telepathy for the last one.
thanatos67 wrote: Man i hope those GK make VENISON out of the deer council! GET IT? VENISON!...oh man.
I think the dreads could a a real pain for the eldar, this ones a tough call.
Oh, deer me.
That joke is just too fawny!
Here, let me give you a buck for your comedic skills.
I'm expecting a lot from my dreads, though those 4+ holo-fielded jink saves on his serpents are going to be darn tough to penetrate.
Looks like Grant caught YOU in the headlights this time JY .
Seriously though, rough dice game sir. Things coulda gone better for you is an understatement. I do like that grisley trophies reroll for warlocks, IMO makes them more reliable. I recently got a rematch of my ovesastar vs my friend and teammate Matt Defranza's seer council (basically the same as Grants) with double wraithknight. We played round 7 of NOVA and that was easily the toughest game I had all weekend.
Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.
Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.
SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.
Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.
One slight issue, using Iyanden also changes the Primaris power for Runes of Battle, which in this case is actually huge since Conceal is what gets you the 2+ cover save. As Iyanden aren't able to ally with standard Eldar the double FOC doesn't let you get around this either, so there is no way you can take all those weapons together.
Was surprising to see him roll on Divination so much/not roll on Telepathy at all. Rolling Invis would let the Council not have to worry about casting Conceal (and killing off Warlocks) and would mean the Paladins hit them on 5's. In a Deathstar vs Deathstar fight like this Halluncination or Dominate could easily turn the game, even Psychic Shriek is pretty scary when combined with Horrify from the Warlocks. I guess he was going for Misfortune, but I'm not sure it would have been any more game changing than some of the Telepathy powers, but there are way more useless powers for the Council on Divination. Foreboding/Perfect Timing are ok, but not great for the Council, Forewarning isn't much use, Precog is ok and Scriers Gaze is pointless for this army. Once he rolled Fortune early I would have probably gone for 1-2 rolls on Divination with the other two Seers, which gets you Prescience and a couple of chances to get Misfortune, then take Telepathy for the last one.
Yeah, I was surprised as well. I guess he really wanted Misfortune. Invisibility is good, Psychic Shriek + Horrity would have been better, but the real winner would have been Hallucination. It was actually pretty exciting when he rolled. I believe he rolled on Rites of Fortune last. His first roll was Death Mission, which he swapped out for Guide. He then rolled for Death Mission again. I was pretty stoked because no Fortune. And then for his very last roll....Fortune.
thanatos67 wrote: Man i hope those GK make VENISON out of the deer council! GET IT? VENISON!...oh man.
I think the dreads could a a real pain for the eldar, this ones a tough call.
Oh, deer me.
That joke is just too fawny!
Here, let me give you a buck for your comedic skills.
I'm expecting a lot from my dreads, though those 4+ holo-fielded jink saves on his serpents are going to be darn tough to penetrate.
Looks like Grant caught YOU in the headlights this time JY .
Seriously though, rough dice game sir. Things coulda gone better for you is an understatement. I do like that grisley trophies reroll for warlocks, IMO makes them more reliable. I recently got a rematch of my ovesastar vs my friend and teammate Matt Defranza's seer council (basically the same as Grants) with double wraithknight. We played round 7 of NOVA and that was easily the toughest game I had all weekend.
More like I stumbled in the darkness and then ran straight into his headlights.
BTW, congrats at the Nova. Very impressive indeed. I'm planning on making it out to either Adepticon or Nova next year. Would love to play against some of the East Coast players out there.
Re-rollable 2+ armor/cover is just so broken. Such an awful mechanic in the game. I can see why most people just hate playing against the seer council or screamerstar. Grant's seer council is also one of the toughest armies that I've faced in 6E. It'll tear apart most of the top Tau/Eldar builds also unless you kit your Tau to play against it (i.e. lots of plasmas, which most Tau players don't really run anymore). However, I suspect that my wraithwing crons to be one of the very few armies that can still give it problems in objectives-based games (assuming I go 2nd). Still, Terrify + Horrify = dead wraiths. Also, thank goodness for marine drop pod alpha-strike armies. We need more of them to contain these types of armies in tournament play.
Re-rollable 2+ armor/cover is just so broken. Such an awful mechanic in the game. I can see why most people just hate playing against the seer council or screamerstar. Grant's seer council is also one of the toughest armies that I've faced in 6E. It'll tear apart most of the top Tau/Eldar builds also unless you kit your Tau to play against it (i.e. lots of plasmas, which most Tau players don't really run anymore). However, I suspect that my wraithwing crons to be one of the very few armies that can still give it problems in objectives-based games (assuming I go 2nd). Still, Terrify + Horrify = dead wraiths. Also, thank goodness for marine drop pod alpha-strike armies. We need more of them to contain these types of armies in tournament play.
I think my least favorite unit right now is the screamerstar, just because nothing can really negate a 2+ rerollable invuln right now in 40K. Tau shooting at least can negate a 2+ rerollable armor/cover, and most armies have some combat option that can hurt a seer council(though it sucks fighting that thing in CC). Against the screamerstar the best thing to do IMO is throw something into combat it cant reliably kill and tie it up for as long as possible since it cant get hit and run, but the list of things that can sit in CC with the screamerstar and not die is pretty small.
I was pretty stoked because no Fortune. And then for his very last roll....Fortune.
Funny thing about that. Grant seems to have a habit of getting fortune on his last roll. It happened to me twice, I saw it happen to trent and now you.
thanatos67 wrote: I think my least favorite unit right now is the screamerstar, just because nothing can really negate a 2+ rerollable invuln right now in 40K. Tau shooting at least can negate a 2+ rerollable armor/cover, and most armies have some combat option that can hurt a seer council(though it sucks fighting that thing in CC). Against the screamerstar the best thing to do IMO is throw something into combat it cant reliably kill and tie it up for as long as possible since it cant get hit and run, but the list of things that can sit in CC with the screamerstar and not die is pretty small.
I honestly feel that the screamerstar isn't as bad. Yeah, re-rollable 2++ suck, but the screamerstar has more exploitable weaknesses than the seer council. Their points of failure include:
They actually need to get Forewarning first. Admittedly, they have a good chance to get it with 2-3 Heralds, but still, there is a chance they don't. I've actually had games where I didn't get a single Forewarning between my LoC and 2-3 Heralds (on foot, I don't run the screamerstar).
There is a 1 in 9 chance that the Grimoire doesn't go off (which becomes a 1 in 3 chance without Fateweaver).
You can take out Fateweaver and the screamerstar becomes much, much less invincible.
If you can somehow take out the Grimoire Herald (he doesn't benefit from his own Grimoire) either from directional fire or barrages, you can negate their effectiveness.
They can be tarpitted. Actually, most of my armies can tarpit them quite easily (if I can catch them).
Mainly, I look at it from the perspective of how my armies can deal with the 2 deathstars. IMO, my armies would have a slightly easier time dealing with the screamerstar than it would the seer council.
I was pretty stoked because no Fortune. And then for his very last roll....Fortune.
Funny thing about that. Grant seems to have a habit of getting fortune on his last roll. It happened to me twice, I saw it happen to trent and now you.
Yeah, you bring 2 farseers and you have a decent chance to get Fortune. You bring 3 and it's almost a guarantee. My opponent told me that he usually gets Fortune. In our games together, there was actually only 1 time where he didn't get Fortune....and he still won!
Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.
Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.
SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.
Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.
One slight issue, using Iyanden also changes the Primaris power for Runes of Battle, which in this case is actually huge since Conceal is what gets you the 2+ cover save. As Iyanden aren't able to ally with standard Eldar the double FOC doesn't let you get around this either, so there is no way you can take all those weapons together.
Please reread my post and the Iyanden supplement and you will find your mistakes. He did not ally Iyanden, he was running Iyanden.
Iyanden only changes the Primaris Power for Spiritseers. And could not change that for Warlocks as it is a Warp Charge 2 power.
He has access to both sets of special issue Wargear with Iyanden.
thanatos67 wrote: I think my least favorite unit right now is the screamerstar, just because nothing can really negate a 2+ rerollable invuln right now in 40K. Tau shooting at least can negate a 2+ rerollable armor/cover, and most armies have some combat option that can hurt a seer council(though it sucks fighting that thing in CC). Against the screamerstar the best thing to do IMO is throw something into combat it cant reliably kill and tie it up for as long as possible since it cant get hit and run, but the list of things that can sit in CC with the screamerstar and not die is pretty small.
I honestly feel that the screamerstar isn't as bad. Yeah, re-rollable 2++ suck, but the screamerstar has more exploitable weaknesses than the seer council. Their points of failure include:
They actually need to get Forewarning first. Admittedly, they have a good chance to get it with 2-3 Heralds, but still, there is a chance they don't. I've actually had games where I didn't get a single Forewarning between my LoC and 2-3 Heralds (on foot, I don't run the screamerstar).
There is a 1 in 9 chance that the Grimoire doesn't go off (which becomes a 1 in 3 chance without Fateweaver).
You can take out Fateweaver and the screamerstar becomes much, much less invincible.
If you can somehow take out the Grimoire Herald (he doesn't benefit from his own Grimoire) either from directional fire or barrages, you can negate their effectiveness.
They can be tarpitted. Actually, most of my armies can tarpit them quite easily (if I can catch them).
Totally agree with your points. Deamons can be one of the most frustrating armies for both players because if they roll well they can be pretty much invincible or they roll poorly, even a few rolls, get rolled over like chumps. The only game I've played vs screamerstar (wasnt playing the ovesastar) my opponent didnt get forewarning on 10 dice rolls! With rerolls for duplicates it was more like 16 dice rolls without it coming up. It was so dumb, I still dislike that unit more than the seer council just because how randomly miraculous it can be, but theres decent ways of dealing with both.
Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.
Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.
SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.
Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.
One slight issue, using Iyanden also changes the Primaris power for Runes of Battle, which in this case is actually huge since Conceal is what gets you the 2+ cover save. As Iyanden aren't able to ally with standard Eldar the double FOC doesn't let you get around this either, so there is no way you can take all those weapons together.
Please reread my post and the Iyanden supplement and you will find your mistakes. He did not ally Iyanden, he was running Iyanden.
Iyanden only changes the Primaris Power for Spiritseers. And could not change that for Warlocks as it is a Warp Charge 2 power.
He has access to both sets of special issue Wargear with Iyanden.
Wait what? I was sure that the Iyanden codex changed the Primaris for Runes of Battle in general, not just for Spiritseers. If that is the case then yeah there is no reason to ever run the base codex, you get all the wargear, all the same unit choices with a better Warlord table and a boost for Spiritseers/Wraithguard if you take them.
Kimchi Gamer wrote: I forget, is Grant color blind or is he going somewhere with that paint scheme?
Dunno. His army is ever-changing in its color scheme. Could this be the machinations of Tzeentch.
Zagman wrote: Please reread my post and the Iyanden supplement and you will find your mistakes. He did not ally Iyanden, he was running Iyanden.
Iyanden only changes the Primaris Power for Spiritseers. And could not change that for Warlocks as it is a Warp Charge 2 power.
He has access to both sets of special issue Wargear with Iyanden.
Wow....seems like a winner.
As if eldar needed any more help to be even more bad-ass....
thanatos67 wrote: Totally agree with your points. Deamons can be one of the most frustrating armies for both players because if they roll well they can be pretty much invincible or they roll poorly, even a few rolls, get rolled over like chumps. The only game I've played vs screamerstar (wasnt playing the ovesastar) my opponent didnt get forewarning on 10 dice rolls! With rerolls for duplicates it was more like 16 dice rolls without it coming up. It was so dumb, I still dislike that unit more than the seer council just because how randomly miraculous it can be, but theres decent ways of dealing with both.
Yeah, totally agree.
Ironically, one of the appeals of daemons to me is its randomness in nature. In 1 game, they can become invincible and there is no army that they can't beat. Then the next game, they can lose to even the weakest army in the game. However, if I wanted reliability, I could just play my necrons, mechdar or even my grey knights. When I want a little more of a challenge (and to make things interesting), then I run my daemons or even my tyranids. Variety is the spice of (my gaming) life.
Wait what? I was sure that the Iyanden codex changed the Primaris for Runes of Battle in general, not just for Spiritseers. If that is the case then yeah there is no reason to ever run the base codex, you get all the wargear, all the same unit choices with a better Warlord table and a boost for Spiritseers/Wraithguard if you take them.
Apparently, GW subscribes to the philosophy that "the rich gets richer".
Tau and Eldar being able to ally with themselves and/or cherry-picking the best from their supplements just doesn't seem right. But I guess that is the trend going forwards and starting with these newer codices. Bah....I don't care. Bring it on. My necrons will take care of them.
jy2 wrote: Ironically, one of the appeals of daemons to me is its randomness in nature. In 1 game, they can become invincible and there is no army that they can't beat. Then the next game, they can lose to even the weakest army in the game. However, if I wanted reliability, I could just play my necrons, mechdar or even my grey knights. When I want a little more of a challenge (and to make things interesting), then I run my daemons or even my tyranids. Variety is the spice of (my gaming) life.
jy2 wrote: Ironically, one of the appeals of daemons to me is its randomness in nature. In 1 game, they can become invincible and there is no army that they can't beat. Then the next game, they can lose to even the weakest army in the game. However, if I wanted reliability, I could just play my necrons, mechdar or even my grey knights. When I want a little more of a challenge (and to make things interesting), then I run my daemons or even my tyranids. Variety is the spice of (my gaming) life.
If you want challenge, try BA...
Lol. I actually have a BA army, but currently, I'm just not interested in running "the good guys", with the only exception being my grey knights. Back in 5th, all I ran was mainly the good guys - Marines, Space Wolves, BA and IG - but for some inexplicable reason, in this edition, I prefer to run the "bad guys" - necrons, chaos, tyranids, orks. The Grey Knights, however, was my very 1st army and still one that I take out once in a while. I still like their elitist nature.
Although lately, I have been working on my space marine army.
thanatos67 wrote: Totally agree with your points. Deamons can be one of the most frustrating armies for both players because if they roll well they can be pretty much invincible or they roll poorly, even a few rolls, get rolled over like chumps. The only game I've played vs screamerstar (wasnt playing the ovesastar) my opponent didnt get forewarning on 10 dice rolls! With rerolls for duplicates it was more like 16 dice rolls without it coming up. It was so dumb, I still dislike that unit more than the seer council just because how randomly miraculous it can be, but theres decent ways of dealing with both.
Yeah, totally agree.
Ironically, one of the appeals of daemons to me is its randomness in nature. In 1 game, they can become invincible and there is no army that they can't beat. Then the next game, they can lose to even the weakest army in the game. However, if I wanted reliability, I could just play my necrons, mechdar or even my grey knights. When I want a little more of a challenge (and to make things interesting), then I run my daemons or even my tyranids. Variety is the spice of (my gaming) life.
Oh I cant wait for tyranids to come out, they're the army i have by far the most experience with, and my personal favorite. I wish i had the time to play my other armies for fun, but anymore I just dont get the time to play anything outside of tournament/prep games.
Two deathstars crashing ! That was huge.
It's a pity to see so much bad luck on the Grey Knight side, it has decided the outcome prematurely.
I've spotted a mistake that could have pretty much returned the balance too.
Warlord traits:
Grey Knights: Useless (Coteaz)
Deldar: Uses Warlord's LD if within 12" of him.
This is huge! That means his warlocks will be casting their psychic powers on LD 10!!!
turn 2 :
The seer council prepares to assault.
Here is where my mistake comes back to bite me. Although Grant didn't mark down which warlock had which power, ultimately it is my mistake for not paying attention enough. I move into range of his Warlock with Jinx. He casts it on me and fails the 1st time. He then re-rolls and passes on the 2nd try (but only because he was able to use his Warlord's LD, otherwise, he would have failed again on his own LD) . Finally, with a 4+ chance to Deny, I fail to do so!
You are now looking at terminators with a 3+ save only.
The point is that p.67 of BRB explicitly prevents any Ld borrowing for psychic tests purpose. The psychic tests are always done using the leadership value of the psyker launching the power.
The warlord trait is of no use here.
It would be nice to see a revenge match on a more covered terrain also.
Exactly correct. Although to be fair, firing 4 Mindstrike Missiles kind of evened out the mistakes.
This is exactly why folks are running Grisly Trophies with Jetseers; the ability to reroll a LD8 psychic test.
However, these are always interesting reports to see how quickly extreme lists get played. For myself, I'm not in an area that is condusive to playing against these kinds of armies, so it's kinda neat to read about them.
While it isn't often that I change my reports and their results, I have done so before. When won't I change my reports?
The error(s) made in the game is not a game-changing mistake. In other words, the mistake made won't really affect the outcome of the game.
This is an official tournament game and the results are recorded. So even if a mistake is made that can affect the outcome of the game, I won't change the results in my battle reports unless the tournament itself changes the results.
Now, when will I make corrections to my reports or even to the results?
When a mistake is made that has a good chance to affect the outcome of the game.
Calculation mistakes like bad math or forgetting to add VP's. An example of this is in my last game with necrons vs Tau in Purge the Alien. Unofficially, it was a draw. However, the VP was wrong because the Ethereal I killed was worth 2 VP's instead of 1. So officially, my necrons won by 1 VP due to his Ethereal and I change the results to reflect as such.
So what mistake was made in this game that it could affect it's outcome?
It was the Warlord Trait where his units within 12" could use his Warlord's LD. Now in the game, we played it as his Warlocks could use their Warlord's (the Farseer's) LD for psychic tests as well. However, p.67 of BRB explicitly prevents any LD borrowing for the purposes of psychic tests. The psychic tests are always done using the leadership value of the psyker who is casting the power.
His Warlock only passed his re-rollable psychic power by using the LD of his Warlord. On his own, he failed the test to cast Jinx, even with the re-rolls (he would be casting on LD4 due to Reinforced Aegis from my dread). Thus, they would have failed to cast Jinx on my paladinstar, which would have totally changed the outcome of the game.
As it is my opponent's mistake, I will have to declare this game a No Contest (or Draw) and that a Rematch is in order.
Thanks to Ravajaxe for pointing this out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravajaxe wrote: Two deathstars crashing ! That was huge.
It's a pity to see so much bad luck on the Grey Knight side, it has decided the outcome prematurely.
I've spotted a mistake that could have pretty much returned the balance too.
Warlord traits:
Grey Knights: Useless (Coteaz)
Deldar: Uses Warlord's LD if within 12" of him.
This is huge! That means his warlocks will be casting their psychic powers on LD 10!!!
turn 2 :
The seer council prepares to assault.
Here is where my mistake comes back to bite me. Although Grant didn't mark down which warlock had which power, ultimately it is my mistake for not paying attention enough. I move into range of his Warlock with Jinx. He casts it on me and fails the 1st time. He then re-rolls and passes on the 2nd try (but only because he was able to use his Warlord's LD, otherwise, he would have failed again on his own LD) . Finally, with a 4+ chance to Deny, I fail to do so!
You are now looking at terminators with a 3+ save only.
The point is that p.67 of BRB explicitly prevents any Ld borrowing for psychic tests purpose. The psychic tests are always done using the leadership value of the psyker launching the power.
The warlord trait is of no use here.
It would be nice to see a revenge match on a more covered terrain also.
Thanks for pointing that out.
That is a huge, game-changing mistake! As such, the results of the game have been changed to reflect that.
Sarigar wrote: Exactly correct. Although to be fair, firing 4 Mindstrike Missiles kind of evened out the mistakes.
This is exactly why folks are running Grisly Trophies with Jetseers; the ability to reroll a LD8 psychic test.
However, these are always interesting reports to see how quickly extreme lists get played. For myself, I'm not in an area that is condusive to playing against these kinds of armies, so it's kinda neat to read about them.
No, it doesn't. The game-changing mistake was already made. Everything else after that wouldn't have mattered because the outcome wouldn't have been the same, especially since he would have still been dealing with a full paladinstar.
The mistake has rendered the game a void. Because of Reinforced Aegis on my dread, it is actually a re-rollable LD4 psychic test for his warlocks, which he failed both times.
Yeah, if you want to read about competitive and/or extreme armies going against other competitive/extreme armies, then check out my reports. My reports tend to slant towards the more competitive side of gaming (though that is not always the case all the time).
Wait Jy2 you made a huge mistake shooting all four mind strike missles into me too, but it didn't change the end result for the game
I would've still charged you even without jinx going off just as a precaution to make sure I didn't get shot by mind strike missiles from the storm raven in your turn. And your dreadnaught was dead in the ensuing assault too, so it wouldn't have affected my powers the next turn.
Grant Theft Auto wrote: Wait Jy2 you made a huge mistake shooting all four mind strike missles into me too, but it didn't change the end result for the game
I would've still charged you even without jinx going off just as a precaution to make sure I didn't get shot by mind strike missiles from the storm raven in your turn. And your dreadnaught was dead in the ensuing assault too, so it wouldn't have affected my powers the next turn.
How does that make everything in the end a draw?
Yes, I made a mistake with the mindstrikes. Had that affected the outcome (i.e. had I managed to get a draw because of it), then I would have gave myself the loss. Had I won with it, I would have down-graded it to a No Contest as well.
However, all that is rendered null and void because of the mistake with the LD tests. The outcome would have been much, much different if my paladins hadn't of gotten jinxed. With Draigo still alive, I could have manipulated my Reserves to have everything come in on a 2+ next turn. Now I could still have lost, but it would have been an entirely different battle.
And if you had killed my dread, I would have just outflanked the dreads within Reinforced Aegis range of my paladins. The only difference would be that, instead of trying to take out your serpent by shooting it in the rear, I would have tried to shoot down your venoms instead.
BTW, I've over-turned my battles before, but usually in favor of my opponents. This is actually the very 1st game where I over-turned the results in favor of me due to a mistake by my opponent.
I am not saying who messed the game up, but it's on both players to catch rules mistakes and I'll be honest it's one thing to state you messed up an important rule and add it in (which I am glad you did btw), but it is a bit ridiculous to go back and call it a no contest draw some time later.
Here's an example using your reports, go back to your Golden throne win where 6th is fresh out the box and your using your Doom Scythes for AA and also targeting units outside LOS for the models design and most of your games turn out very differently. It doesn't mean you couldn't win though right? You'd change your strategy to adapt. Either way GT didn't go back and change the results, and you haven't recognized these errors in your reports either. Should you? I don't think so, and that wasn't a friendly pick up game either.
Mistakes happen literally every game, some big, some small. Just play again, but I wouldn't pull a win from my opponent weeks later especially when you misplayed the mind strikes to similar results which definitely was as bad an error IMHO (also not noted in the report).
Red Corsair wrote: I am not saying who messed the game up, but it's on both players to catch rules mistakes and I'll be honest it's one thing to state you messed up an important rule and add it in (which I am glad you did btw), but it is a bit ridiculous to go back and call it a no contest draw some time later.
Here's an example using your reports, go back to your Golden throne win where 6th is fresh out the box and your using your Doom Scythes for AA and also targeting units outside LOS for the models design and most of your games turn out very differently. It doesn't mean you couldn't win though right? You'd change your strategy to adapt. Either way GT didn't go back and change the results, and you haven't recognized these errors in your reports either. Should you? I don't think so, and that wasn't a friendly pick up game either.
Mistakes happen literally every game, some big, some small. Just play again, but I wouldn't pull a win from my opponent weeks later especially when you misplayed the mind strikes to similar results which definitely was as bad an error IMHO (also not noted in the report).
Just my 2 cents.
I am only being consistent. I have over-turn my games before:
1. I didn't agree with your intepretation at the time. The rule was somewhat ambiguous and can be intepreted either ways. I intepreted it as the way it was written in the codex. Your viewpoint would require doing a mountain of research, which is something we don't have time for in a tournament. Even my opponent agreed with me after I showed him the rules from my codex.
2. The official GWFAQ's did not come out until well after that tournament - both in regards to shooting at other flyers and the LOS. So at the time of the tournament, there were no FAQ's to clarify this.
3. Official tournament records stand, at least in my books. I don't over-turn them unless the tournament over-turns them.
As for the mindstrike mistake, had I done that first and it affected the outcome of the game, then I would have over-turned the results in favor of my opponent. Alas, the game-changing mistake that was made 1st was made by my opponent, and anything that happened afterwards would most likely have turned out very differently. Thus, my decision on this is final.
Ive noticed this in a few of your games where you do not try to sieze the initative and even hope your opponent does if you happen to have first turn. Is this because you want to have the last turn to contest objectives or some other reason?
Billagio wrote: Ive noticed this in a few of your games where you do not try to sieze the initative and even hope your opponent does if you happen to have first turn. Is this because you want to have the last turn to contest objectives or some other reason?
My armies are built to withstand most opponent's alpha-strikes. What I don't want is for them to have the last say on objectives, especially if they have fast troops such as eldar or necrons. In the case of my necrons, I want to have the last say on objectives. If I were playing a VP mission instead, then I would want to go 1st.
No offense but page 16 is hardly mountains of research. It was a basic change from 5th to 6th that was missed in haste and in a sloppy manner. I disagree that tournament standings are static where casual games are fluid. Boasting a GT win in your sig when a rule was fouled hard in your favor is much worse.
BUT I am not saying it matters, rules get fouled up ALL the time at events yet as you said titles stand. I am saying that I wouldn't overturn a casual game under the same pretenses if you aren't willing to acknowledge a mistake at the higher more important level. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I also genuinely am curious if a tournament standing has ever been retroactively revoked for a rules blunder ever? C'est la Vis...
As to the mindstrikes, now where getting into if this then that arguments which are never worth pursuing and I am sorry if I started such a debate. I was simply illustrating further that mistakes WILL happen on both sides so condemning one side while ignoring the other hardly seems fair regardless of outcome.
Either way that was just my interweb 2 cents which are wort exactly 2 internet cents
Red Corsair wrote: No offense but page 16 is hardly mountains of research. It was a basic change from 5th to 6th that was missed in haste and in a sloppy manner. I disagree that tournament standings are static where casual games are fluid. Boasting a GT win in your sig when a rule was fouled hard in your favor is much worse.
BUT I am not saying it matters, rules get fouled up ALL the time at events yet as you said titles stand. I am saying that I wouldn't overturn a casual game under the same pretenses if you aren't willing to acknowledge a mistake at the higher more important level. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I also genuinely am curious if a tournament standing has ever been retroactively revoked for a rules blunder ever? C'est la Vis...
As to the mindstrikes, now where getting into if this then that arguments which are never worth pursuing and I am sorry if I started such a debate. I was simply illustrating further that mistakes WILL happen on both sides so condemning one side while ignoring the other hardly seems fair regardless of outcome.
Either way that was just my interweb 2 cents which are wort exactly 2 internet cents
You are welcome to change the results on your reports.
But this is my report, my rules, and my decision stands. Yes, I am the TO of my own report. I don't normally change the results of my reports on rules mistakes except only if the mistake is a game-changer (and only if I agree with the person who pointed out the rules-foul). This game is a clear case of a game-changing rules mistake.
I also won't reverse any tournament results. It doesn't matter to the degree of the blunder, but I just won't do it unless the tournament itself does it. That is my personal philosophy and no amount of arguing/pleading is going to change that.
Sorry, but the only way to declare a victory against my Draigowing list is to beat them in a rematch.
To my knowledge, I've never heard of a tournament reversing its results due to a rules mistakes. What I have heard of is a tournament taking away wins because of an illegal list. The most well-known would probably be Tony Kopach having his title taken from him due to being 3-pts over at the first Nova.
As to my mistake with the mindstrikes, that is overshadowed by the mistake with the LD test. 1 possible result of the LD mistake is that my raven comes in, can't fire at his seer council because they are locked in combat, fires at another target and then get shot down my massed serpent shields before it can even fire a single mindstrike missile (and I would still be oblivious to the error-to-be). Another possible result is that my opponent keeps on doing Hit-&-Run and then going back into assault to ensure that I would never be able to fire my mindstrikes at his seer council. The point is, there is a million possible outcomes just from the 1st game-changing mistake that the 2nd mistake is really a moot point (it might not even happen). No, it definitely does not cancel out the 1st mistake.
Nope you lost Jy2, and lost badly, no matter what you say. It's one thing to miscount VPs and change a result afterwards as this is not changeable, but anything could still have happened after the Jinx was failed, you could have rolled nothing but ones in theory for all your effected models after they didn't die. Rules mistakes were made by both of you, which were only caught afterwards, therefore you have to count them as unfortunate mistakes, and resolve to do them right next time. If I lost a model/unit and found out next turn the rules meant I should still have it in play, I wouldn't put it back on the table. You can say what you like, but I'm sure I won't be the only one who sees your report as a comprehensive loss.
I've got to highly agree with The Shadow King here. You are changing this on extremely biased speculation of the remainder of the game, post game. Anyone can play what ifs. It's a friendly. Admit you lost, move on, declare a rematch, etc.
That's fine. You can view it as my loss. I don't, but it's ok to disagree with me.
It's like a running back in football who makes it into the endzone....only to have his touchdown redacted because his offensive lineman committed a foul (a facemask).
I am not being biased. Look at my past reports in my link a few posts above. I don't care who makes the mistake, but the person to make that game-changing mistake first is the one who is penalized. Namely, out of my 4 reversals, 3 of them were infractions on my part and thusly, I was penalized in my own reports. I am only being consistent with my past rulings.
jy2 wrote: That's fine. You can view it as my loss. I don't, but it's ok to disagree with me.
It's like a running back in football who makes it into the endzone....only to have his touchdown redacted because his offensive lineman committed a foul (a facemask).
I am not being biased. Look at my past reports in my link above. I don't care who makes the mistake, but the person to make that game-changing mistake first is the one who is penalized. Namely, out of my 4 reversals, 3 of them were infractions on my part and thusly, I was penalized in my own reports. I am only being consistent with my past rulings.
Sorry, but this is not how it works in professional sports, so your analogy is wrong.
If you made that call at the moment, no one would argue with you, as in professional sports.
jy2 wrote: That's fine. You can view it as my loss. I don't, but it's ok to disagree with me.
It's like a running back in football who makes it into the endzone....only to have his touchdown redacted because his offensive lineman committed a foul (a facemask).
I am not being biased. Look at my past reports in my link above. I don't care who makes the mistake, but the person to make that game-changing mistake first is the one who is penalized. Namely, out of my 4 reversals, 3 of them were infractions on my part and thusly, I was penalized in my own reports. I am only being consistent with my past rulings.
Sorry, but this is not how it works in professional sports, so your analogy is wrong.
If you made that call at the moment, no one would argue with you, as in professional sports.
Doesn't change the fact that it is my battle report, my rules and my call. You don't have to agree with it, but then again, I'm not looking at your (the audience's) validation of my decision.
Speaking for myself I think the reason this wreaks a bit is because it is one thing to redact your own win because you feel you cheated someone a bit, that's noble.
Its by far and away different to sully an opponents time in the sun weeks after a game by saying it didn't count because of your own justifications and not theirs.
Either way I just wanted to throw that out there for you. As you said you play it as you like, I am sure the English wish they could redact Argentina's Cup when Maradona pulled the "hand of God."
I agree with jy2 declaring this match a draw, but feel he needs to also emphasize his mistake with the Mindstrikes as well. The report should not in their appropriate sections the rules mistakes and be adjusted accordingly even if the Mindstrike mistake came after the LD mistake.
I do not doubt that if the only mistake made int he game was jy2 firing the Mindstrikes that he would declare it a draw, even if he had won. He has set a precedent for such things.
The game was effectively won Turn 2 with a pretty significant rules blunder(Small mistake with huge consequences), that needs to be noted and the outcome of the game could have been very different. I doubt we would have seen 7 Paladins, Coteaz, and Driago die that round. The loss of Warlord, the ability to manipulate reserves, and effectively jy2's mainstay unit was the deciding factor in that match.
As to what may have happened in the past at a tournament, mistakes do happen and if it wasn't caught at the time you can't go back and change it. If both players and or TO miss a rules query at that time, its how it gets played, you usually only outright reverse cheating and illegal lists of which that was not.
Ultimately this blog is yours and everyone is entitled to their opinions...
I had a recent tourney where we misread the rules and I caught it later for primary - it would have meant the difference of a minor loss to a minor victory, but I did not say anything. It was how it was played at the time. It was a fun game and it sucked we did not score it correctly but that is the way it happened. When playing a fun match up I think who wins or loses matters even less. Mistakes were made on both sides of this battle. I think the high road is to say, "yeah I lost, but I will get him next time and I will be more prepared with the rules." I think crying foul at this time just looks a little bad. As gamers we are all very proud of our accomplishments in this game because it takes so much of our time and we want acknowledgement for things we do with little plastic and metal soldiers, but when it comes down to it we are all on the same page, we want to have fun and spend time with people who share our passions and can laugh and remember the glory and the poor rolls with us.
Just my 2 cents
And why must I hold myself to a different standard than to my opponents? Why is it that when I make a games-changing mistake, I must rescind my victories but then when my opponent makes it, he gets to keep it? I have shown by precedent that I have over-turned certain results before, and I am doing it this time to maintain consistency with my rulings. There is no double-standards here, people. I have given you my reasons for what I do, whether you agree or not. There is also no high-road or low-road to me, and frankly, I really don't care if I win or not in a casual game. What is most important to me is that I play my games consistently and make my rulings as consistently as I can. This is what you can expect in my reports. I make a mistake, I will admit to it. But if others make a mistake as well, I will hold them accountable for it, especially in the case that it affects the game significantly.
I agree with jy2 here. All he is doing is declaring his own opinion in his own battle report. There is no doubt that Jinx failing to go off would have altered the game drastically, and if jy2 feels that this invalidates the following turns then he is perfectly entitled to change his report.
Right. Basically, I am just holding my opponent to the same high standards that I hold myself. There is no favoritism here nor are there any pity games. If there is an infraction made in the game to such a degree that it would have significantly altered the course of the game, then I believe the party responsible should be penalized, whether it be me or my opponent. The mistake made here was grave enough that it significantly impacted the rest of the game, and thus, I had no other recourse than to declare the game a No Contest (or if the mistake gave my opponent a tie when he would have otherwise lost, then I would have declared this game a loss for him).
We were playing BAO scenarios with Purge the Alien as primary and the Scouring as secondary. Unfortunately, he had the 2 3-pt objectives in his deployment zone whereas I had a 1 & 2-pt objective in mine.
We played at 2500 and I just added 2 psyfleman dreads and dropped 1 warding stave.
Grant added this super-good and super-nasty Forge World character. Jeez, what the heck is FW thinking with some of these characters? He has this special ability that forces enemy units within 12" who are forced to take LD tests take it with 3D6 dice. He then hit me with a combo that totally caught me with my pants down....the FW character plus the Crucible of Malediction! That's a 3D6LD test for my psykers or removed from play!
He also added 3x2 shadow weaver support gun batteries and dropped 2 warlocks to fit everything in.
I didn't even get to fire my mindstrike missiles once because his seer council was always in combat.
It was a rough game.
Unfortunately, I won't be doing a battle report on this one.
But fortunately for you, Frontline Gaming will be doing a videorep of it!
Gah jy2 why cant you have your opponents roll all 1s for their saves like I do?
As to 'changing the game outcome' I think these battlereports are more useful for the learning points they provide than the actual game outcome. Its definitely good to know that you cant use the farseers ld to cast powers from a lock though.
Talore wrote: Yeah, people definitely need to calm down. If you don't like the report you don't have to read it.
I have said this in many threads but never headed..
As for previous posts I only state it is better to take the high road. If you want to cry foul to look like an awesome player.. No one can stop anyone from doing this. I enjoy reading people's battle reports to learn things and be entertained. We are all here because we love this hobby. Cheers and good luck on the rematch
thanatos67 wrote: Gah jy2 why cant you have your opponents roll all 1s for their saves like I do?
As to 'changing the game outcome' I think these battlereports are more useful for the learning points they provide than the actual game outcome. Its definitely good to know that you cant use the farseers ld to cast powers from a lock though.
Yeah, I write my reports more to inform the readers as well as to entertain. Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me whether I win or lose. I care more that we play fairly and consistently.
As for our rematch, there were some wonky dice in it. Between my 10-man paladinstar and 5-man unit, I have 9 Nemesis force hammers. For the life of me, I couldn't even kill 1 single warlock in close-combat with them (he made every single Fortuned save in cc). However, instead I managed to kill 3 Fortuned warlocks with non-Prescienced Overwatch from my smaller 5-man paladin unit. Go figure.
As for previous posts I only state it is better to take the high road. If you want to cry foul to look like an awesome player.. No one can stop anyone from doing this. I enjoy reading people's battle reports to learn things and be entertained. We are all here because we love this hobby. Cheers and good luck on the rematch
I often do take the high road as long as my opponent isn't being a jerk. I oftentimes let them redo stuff or do stuff that they forget, and I even let them do it in tournament play. I once even let my opponent proxy his space marines as imperial guardsmen in tournament play because he forget to bring his guardsmen (and he ended up beating me).
What I care most is that we play fairly. And fairly usually means that we play consistently. That means I treat my opponent exactly the same as I would treat myself. If I make a huge mistake, I will penalize myself for it. I will also do the same for my opponent. I hold him to the same standards as I do myself. To me, this isn't an issue of being gracious or feeling sorry for an opponent or feeling that I need an advantage. Whatever I decide, I always ask myself first, would I hold myself accountable for this error as well (and is it a big enough error that it would alter the course of the game)? If the answer is yes, then I'm sorry. My opponent will get no leniency from me because I wouldn't even give myself leniency for making this mistake. That is what it means to be fair. You treat both you and your opponent equally.
