2250 Double-FOC Competitive - Jy2's Draigowing vs Grant Theft Auto's Deer Council Deldar (Completed)

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**Blackmoor**

The Eldar should dominate this match-up.

**Dozer Blades**

I think so too.

**Red Corsair**

Dozer Blades wrote:
I think so too.

LOL I thought you were blackmoor for a second

**ImotekhTheStormlord**

Red Corsair wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
I think so too.

LOL I thought you were blackmoor for a second

Same.

Consarned profile pictures.

**jy2**

Blackmoor wrote:
The Eldar should dominate this match-up.

Dozer Blades wrote:
I think so too.

I'm seeing doubles also.

Powerguy wrote:
SkaredCast wrote:
The minstrike missiles will own the jetseers! As long as they dont have a bunch of warpcharge to burn on the ghosthelm.

You generate warp charge every player turn, not every game turn. If you didnt then you wouldn't be able to use force weapons unless it was your turn. Because of this Mindstrikes are completely pointless against the Farseers themselves, you would have to get 6 hits from Mindstrikes to kill 1 (i.e 3 Ravens dumping all the missiles they can in a single turn and getting clean hits on every single one). The Warlocks don't have Ghosthelms though, so are easy prey if they aren't spread.

Agreed. Minstrikes are dangerous mainly to the warlocks, not really to the farseers....unless they're clumped up and you're running 3 stormravens.

LValx wrote:
Paladins are good vs Seers in my experience too. I imagine the Paladins win, though Serpents may do very well against the Dreadnoughts.

Yeah, I've played Grant twice in a deathstar-vs-deathstar matchmatch and both times, my paladins beat his seer council. However, that was before the new Elder codex came out. Even though they've lost a guaranteed Fortune, IMO they are actually much more dangerous now than they were before.

tetsuo666 wrote:
Sorry i don't understand how Edar player can have 5 HQ !?

Double-FOC = double Primary + double Allied attachments. That means up to 4 Primary HQ's + 4 min troops and 2 Allied HQ's +2 min troops.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Just wanted to ask what AP 2 weapon the farseers have? Farseers only have access to singing spears, witch blades and remnants of glory. He has already used the shard once and wild fire blades are AP 3, so I'm confused about how he got those AP 2 weapons.

On the game I would give it slightly to the grey knights, due to the eldar having very little to hurt the multiple psyflemen. Mass trength 7 is fun and all, but is it enough? Also misfortune will be horrible if it goes off, cancelling out fortune and making them vulnerable. Its because of misfortune I always take one runes of warding, simple because if I get misfortuned then that's a very expensive unit up in smokes if I can't make a 4+ deny the witch. I'd much rather make a 2+ for 10 points then have a what? 1000pt unit get torrented down?

I would also of said that he probably could of got a little bit of AT in there, maybe by down grading a serpent to jetbikes and dropping a venom he could fit in something. But that said, I won't count them out. Ghosthelm placement makes the unit surprisingly resilient to mindstrikes, fortune and protect make the unit undeniably very survivable. That being said, I simply can't understand why he continued to roll on divination? Was e gunning for misfortune? I think that he should of rolled for warlocks first, then seeing he had two horrifies should of taken at least 1 psykic shriek. Prescience and misfortune are the only things he wants on divination, and when he didn't get it while throwing an entire farseer into it he should of when for telepathy in my opinion. Although, crucible of malediction used in conjunction with a horrify or two would be a scary concept, forcing even draigo to take a 50/50 chance of simply being removed from play, but reinforced aegis should help prevent it.

Alex.

I believe the AP2 weapons may be from the Iyanden supplement (I don't own it so can't say for sure). I believe he is running 1 Primary from the normal codex and 1 Primary from the Iyanden.

It won't be easy to get Misfortune off. He'll have a 4+ Deny + re-roll from Fortune. That means there is a 75% chance of him blocking the power. And yeah, I'm pretty sure he was trying for Misfortune, though Prescience can also be very handy for the rest of his army (the venoms).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Powerguy wrote:
This is a great example of the weaknesses of the Jetcouncil list if you don't build it right. Without any form of long ranged anti tank weaponry it has serious issues against mech lists (or indeed any list with some heavy armour) that has at least some form of counterpunch which stops you just zerging forward, if you play it right the council can't really get to the Dreads. I know the Venoms are nice (and at 2k+ the Haemonculi to get cheaper units in them is great) but imo the list would be far stronger if you swapped a couple of them out for Vibrocannons or some other form of long range high strength support unit. You only need 2-3 Venoms so you can keep the Council re-rolling powers, in this case I think the psychic defence from the Dreads could be the deciding factor in this game (that and taking Rangers over Jetbikes). I don't think you fear the Raven tbh, you should be able to bounce in and out of combat to avoid it, and with large bases and proper spacing you just lose 2 Warlocks two it (since they can't hurt the Farseers due to Ghosthelms).

Also doesn't the Crucible effect all psykers within 3D6"? I.e there is no mention of friendly psykers? It was written before allies and Dark Eldar have none, so afaik it should be hitting the Warlocks and Farseers as well. Still valuable either way, just requires a bit more finesse to use.

As usual with these lists the powers rolled can make a big difference. Terrify does nothing (you are Fearless from Draigo, but you still have ATSKNF remember), the big one in this matchup is Protect imo. Getting to a 2+ save means you ignore all the AP3 power weapons, but more importantly if you can get it off on the Paladins then they will probably lose assaults to the Council, volume of wounds can struggle against 2+, but it cleans up Marines just fine. Realistically though the only way that is going to happen is if the Council lives through multiple rounds of combat with the Paladins - first round you bounce out, 2nd you charge the Dread (and hopefully something else so you don't get shot) and then in the 3rd round you might get debuffs on the Paladins. In the best possible scenario (the Paladins charging the Council, in the top of the 2nd turn) that is going to happen the bottom of turn 4, and I can't see the Council having the numbers at that stage.

IMO, his seer council can handle mech quite easily. As a matter of fact, IMO they should eat up MSU quite easily. They can also handle heavy armor. I've played against his new seer council deldar with my daemons before and they ate up my AV13 soulgrinders without much problem. Prescience + multiple Empowers (we play it here as stacking) means that they can even handle land raiders/monoliths.

He's going to try to get into combat to avoid my stormraven.

ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I would laugh so hard if the Crucible of Malediction went off and draigo bit the dust.

No way am I letting that thing get near me. I'm going to blow his venom out of the sky before he can do that....

....though in all honesty, I completely forget about the wargear in the game. It's just one of those esoteric wargears that most people just don't remember....or just don't care about.

**Red Corsair**

Lol, I really would not worry about the crucible, IMO they really F'd up and made to many of the dark eldar arcane artifacts double random ie. random range plus ________.

I don't think I would have gambled FB turn one with the rangers. 5 shots for 3 hits and 2 wounds.... nah wait a turn and profit. Hopefully he doesn't take any other unnecessary risks this game.

**jy2**

Blackmoor wrote:
The Eldar should dominate this match-up.

Dozer Blades wrote:
I think so too.

I'm seeing doubles also.

Red Corsair wrote:
Lol, I really would not worry about the crucible, IMO they really F'd up and made to many of the dark eldar arcane artifacts double random ie. random range plus ________.

I don't think I would have gambled FB turn one with the rangers. 5 shots for 3 hits and 2 wounds.... nah wait a turn and profit. Hopefully he doesn't take any other unnecessary risks this game.

With a little bit of luck, the Crucible can be quite powerful against the right army. In this case, it is Grant's answer to other power units like Draigowing, the Screamerstar, another seer council and psychic armies.

With Fleet and Battle Focus, his rangers actually had a good chance to take shots at my henchmen and move back behind the hill for protection (wouldn't be able to see them then). It's just that he rolled a 1 or 2 for his run move as well as the Fleet re-roll.

But besides that, it is actually a shrewd move by my opponent whether he realizes it or not. First off, it keeps my paladins from advancing for 1 turn in order to deal with them. For such a slow unit like my paladins, any turn they are not advancing is a turn that my opponent is winning. Secondly, he baited me into moving towards his rangers (in order to get most of my guns in range) and more importantly, into the range of his maledictions.

**Valkyrie**

Holy hell that was a bad turn for the GK. What are the plans now, are you just going to try for a draw or do you still have a way to beat him?

**jy2**

Well, I haven't given up yet. If there's even a slim chance for a draw or win, I am going for it.

**Thud**

If you can pull this one off, I'll be really impressed. It's not exactly going swimmingly, is it?

**hyv3mynd**

Pretty sure rangers can of battle focus after firing heavy weapons.

Also, a unit of 13 psykers and you aren't tracking which ones have which powers? That's just begging for abuse.

And where do you get ap2 weapons on farseers? Shard has rending but it's not ap2 without it. I haven't seen the artifact list for iyanden, but if you're using double FO the primary detachments have to be same codex. I'm assuming that's the same for supplements.

Seems to me like sloppy prep/play is leaving a lot of room for shenanigans.

**Red Corsair**

jy2 wrote:

With a little bit of luck, the Crucible can be quite powerful against the right army. In this case, it is Grant's answer to other power units like Draigowing, the Screamerstar, another seer council and psychic armies.

I actually could see it being decent against heralds LD7 or Warlocks 8 but seriously you need to surprise your opponent by not telling him what it is/does or he needs to be stupid for you to be able to use on those units IMO. The screamer star and eldar have such awesome shooting they'll just down his ride in short order.

pretty unlikely but funny he got 2/3 of those paladins

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS now you know how your opponents feel when you make so many res orb saves

**jy2**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Pretty sure rangers can of battle focus after firing heavy weapons.

Also, a unit of 13 psykers and you aren't tracking which ones have which powers? That's just begging for abuse.

And where do you get ap2 weapons on farseers? Shard has rending but it's not ap2 without it. I haven't seen the artifact list for iyanden, but if you're using double FO the primary detachments have to be same codex. I'm assuming that's the same for supplements.

Seems to me like sloppy prep/play is leaving a lot of room for shenanigans.

He actually fired their shuriken pistols because he didn't want to have to snap-shoot with his rifles.

I didn't really keep track of his warlocks because, although we were bringing hard lists, this was actually just a casual and friendly game between us. But that doesn't mean my opponent wasn't keeping track himself. But it makes sense to put his guys with the malediciton powers (and whose range is the shortest) in the front so that they could cast them on the enemy. It's what I would have done as well.

Yeah, the shard is only rending. I'm not too familiar with the Iyanden codex and the wargear within, so I can't really answer you on the rest. As for the double-Primary being from the same codex, you may be right. Again, I cannot confirm without the supplement.

Anyone has info to shed some light onto this? Thanks.

**Zagman**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Pretty sure rangers can of battle focus after firing heavy weapons.

Also, a unit of 13 psykers and you aren't tracking which ones have which powers? That's just begging for abuse.

And where do you get ap2 weapons on farseers? Shard has rending but it's not ap2 without it. I haven't seen the artifact list for iyanden, but if you're using double FO the primary detachments have to be same codex. I'm assuming that's the same for supplements.

Seems to me like sloppy prep/play is leaving a lot of room for shenanigans.

I agree, you have to track those powers.

Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.

Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.

SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.

Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.

@jy2, rough rough game so far. The jetseer council gets quite a bit of a boost from gaining access to the double FOC. That third Farseer helps immensely.

2+/++ rerollable saves units needs to be something GW eventually addresses.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:

He actually fired their shuriken pistols because he didn't want to have to snap-shoot with his rifles.

I didn't really keep track of his warlocks because, although we were bringing hard lists, this was actually just a casual and friendly game between us. But that doesn't mean my opponent wasn't keeping track himself. But it makes sense to put his guys with the malediciton powers (and whose range is the shortest) in the front so that they could cast them on the enemy. It's what I would have done as well.

Yeah, the shard is only rending. I'm not too familiar with the Iyanden codex and the wargear within, so I can't really answer you on the rest. As for the double-Primary being from the same codex, you may be right. Again, I cannot confirm without the supplement.

Anyone has info to shed some light onto this? Thanks.

See above.

**jy2**

Red Corsair wrote:
jy2 wrote:

With a little bit of luck, the Crucible can be quite powerful against the right army. In this case, it is Grant's answer to other power units like Draigowing, the Screamerstar, another seer council and psychic armies.

I actually could see it being decent against heralds LD7 or Warlocks 8 but seriously you need to surprise your opponent by not telling him what it is/does or he needs to be stupid for you to be able to use on those units IMO. The screamer star and eldar have such awesome shooting they'll just down his ride in short order.

pretty unlikely but funny he got 2/3 of those paladins

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS now you know how your opponents feel when you make so many res orb saves

Partially, it was my carelessness that led me to this situation. I didn't keep track of where his Crucible guy was.

Then again, with his venoms being able to move 12", he could still get into position to try to maximize how many units he could get. And I just happened to roll high for both of my LD tests.

In the current competitive meta, I actually like the Crucible, though personally, if I was running DE (or DE allies), I wouldn't take it, especially at lower points games.

Yeah, passing all those ResOrb tests is annoying for my opponents. However, in this case, it's like I'm passing all my ResOrbs and he's failing with his dice rolls as well. It's like a double-whammy when that happens.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zagman wrote:
I agree, you have to track those powers.

Shard is Rending and Flessbane and ID in challenges.

Celestial Lance(Iyanden) AP2, but Impact, so charge only.

SoulShrive(Iyanden) is AP2 and gains +1 Strength for every unsaved wound previously dealt starting at S3.

Looks to me like he is playing an Iyanden army, and then choosing from both lists for Remanents of Glory and Gifts of Asuryan, which is allowed(Although all following supplements have made them a replacement list). Iyanden doesn't affect his army at all, except for what Warlord Traits table he rolls upon and the Iyanden table is decidedly better.

@jy2, rough rough game so far. The jetseer council gets quite a bit of a boost from gaining access to the double FOC. That third Farseer helps immensely.

2+/++ rerollable saves units needs to be something GW eventually addresses.

Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated.

**hyv3mynd**

By playing iyanden doesn't that mean no conceal/reveal primaris for warlocks?

**jy2**

Report will be concluded a little later today.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Ouch, this game is simply murder! You need to check his dice aren't loaded!

Seriously unlucky dude, losing draigo and all those paladins was simply bad luck. I mean you'd have to roll 4 1's to fail the look out sir!, then fail 4 3+'s from the stormshield. Also 2 paladins being killed by the crucible is terrible luck, as was the peril'ing. Burn your dice...

I would say that is that really and that bad rolls had cost you the game. You now have a seer council in your deployment zone and nothing to counter them, they will take out at least 1 unit a turn. You should try get a re match with some different dice!

**Zagman**

hyv3mynd wrote:
By playing iyanden doesn't that mean no conceal/reveal primaris for warlocks?

Unfortunately no. It only replaces it as the primaris for Spirtseers. Warlocks still have access to conceal.

Iyanden has a few issues, mainly its ability to be used in many Eldar armies with absolutely no downside. I'd like them to errata for consistency, but doubt that will happen.

**hyv3mynd**

Zagman wrote:
hyv3mynd wrote:
By playing iyanden doesn't that mean no conceal/reveal primaris for warlocks?

Unfortunately no. It only replaces it as the primaris for Spirtseers. Warlocks still have access to conceal.

Iyanden has a few issues, mainly its ability to be used in many Eldar armies with absolutely no downside. I'd like them to errata for consistency, but doubt that will happen.

Yeah being able to use artifacts and characters from both books without any drawbacks seems too good. At least they can't self ally like farsight and black legion.

**Grant Theft Auto**

My bad guys, I usually run dice on the bottom of the bases in tournaments to represent the powers, but since it was a casual game I totally forgot.

I'm working on making custom bases that I can put a counter in to represent the powers, I've found with using dice is inconvenient since they always fall off the bases because I made the bases too rocky.

**Red Corsair**

It would be cool to have magnetized banners with different colors or glyphs that you could put on the back of the bikes as well, then just hand your opponent a chart with a key for all the banners.

**Dozer Blades**

@ jy2 - please edit the topic title to denote when the batrep is complete. I don't want to read a comment that gives away the end result. Good luck!

**ImotekhTheStormlord**

Wow. By the end of turn 3 i'd say the game is pretty much over.

**jy2**

Dozer Blades wrote:
@ jy2 - please edit the topic title to denote when the batrep is complete. I don't want to read a comment that gives away the end result. Good luck!

Sure thing, dozer! I usually do....unless the title is too long to fit it in.

ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Wow. By the end of turn 3 i'd say the game is pretty much over.

I still have a slim shot.

Might I remind you of 2 games where I was getting trounced (both against Frankie):

40K Video Bat Rep Double Header: Jy2's Daemon Flying Circus vs Frankie's Dark Harliestar and Reecius' Sons of AnOrky

Jy2 I am challenging you!!!! Videorep on p.1. Written batrep on p.3.

In other words, with me, it ain't over til the fat lady sings.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Battle report completed.

Post-Game Analysis coming later.

**McBain**

Shame about that game, would have been interesting if the dice were a bit more balanced.

I might be reading this wrong but wasn't the game over at the end of turn 3 as you were tabled?

You only had your Raven with Palaidns inside but they were in reserve..

**Dozer Blades**

Dang I was pulling for you jy2! So close!!!

**jy2**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ouch, this game is simply murder! You need to check his dice aren't loaded!

Seriously unlucky dude, losing draigo and all those paladins was simply bad luck. I mean you'd have to roll 4 1's to fail the look out sir!, then fail 4 3+'s from the stormshield. Also 2 paladins being killed by the crucible is terrible luck, as was the peril'ing. Burn your dice...

I would say that is that really and that bad rolls had cost you the game. You now have a seer council in your deployment zone and nothing to counter them, they will take out at least 1 unit a turn. You should try get a re match with some different dice!

Don't forget failing 4 5+ FNP's as well. I just wasn't making any of my FNP saves in the beginning.

Grant Theft Auto wrote:
My bad guys, I usually run dice on the bottom of the bases in tournaments to represent the powers, but since it was a casual game I totally forgot.

I'm working on making custom bases that I can put a counter in to represent the powers, I've found with using dice is inconvenient since they always fall off the bases because I made the bases too rocky.

No worries. In casual games, I don't really care as long as it makes sense. It made sense that you would put some of those malediction warlocks in the front in order to try to cast their powers.

But in a tournament, I would ask you to mark who is who.

McBain wrote:
Shame about that game, would have been interesting if the dice were a bit more balanced.

I might be reading this wrong but wasn't the game over at the end of turn 3 as you were tabled?

You only had your Raven with Palaidns inside but they were in reserve..

Nope. Tabling occurs only if you have no models at the end of the game turn. I went 2nd so my reserves still get to come in before it is the end of the game turn.

Dozer Blades wrote:
Dang I was pulling for you jy2! So close!!!

No worries. You win some, you lose some. I've had my share of "miracle" games. It's only natural that I have an "off-night" once in a while.

**Dozer Blades**

True that... You made a remarkable come back and that is something indeed. : )

**ImotekhTheStormlord**

I have to ask, how did you manage to kill 10 warlocks in one phase of MS missiles? Isn't there a rule saying flyers can only fire 2 missiles per shooting phase?