Unless you are running a death star, a lot of Terms, or don't know how to properly spread your army, its damage output isn't really that great.
Focus on their troops. Win the game by playing the game, not your opponent.
Attach O'vesa to a crisis suit troop, O'vesa can now take objectives.
On-topic, the biggest problem I've had for my riptide was a CC dreadnaught who was able to beat him to death. I've almost lost him to a scarab swarm, but since he is S6 he was able to squish them all before he fail an armor save.
He may be a monstrous creature, but he is still a tau. If you have any assault from reserves like a Lucius Drop Pod, That will be you best chance to catch one.
I just started playing Tau a couple of weeks ago and one of our ringers played me with the new SM codex. He rhino rushed my riptides and tank shocked two of them off the board - didn't see that one coming Live and learn I guess...
He may be a monstrous creature, but he is still a tau. If you have any assault from reserves like a Lucius Drop Pod, That will be you best chance to catch one.
Unfortunately that was nerfed, so now it is just an expensive drop pod, mostly.
With DE, poison works well enough. DE can pile on ranged poison attacks like none other..
Massed Dissie fire or DL work too, but it takes forever. Kill everything else, then come knocking...
Orks - I've only killed a Riptide twice with Orks, but then i've only faced one twice..
First time it was Clawed to death by Meganobz.
Second time Zagstrukk bipped in and cleaned its clock from Deepstrike.
Daemons - Get in and fong the thing, or ignore it. A full unit fo plaguebearers with a herald can give it pause, as did my tooled up GUOhq. I run mono-nurgle, but there are some other sweet options out there.
Last night I got into CC with one using my catacomb command barge. It punched itself in the face a few times, I whacked on it with my warscythe a little. 2 turns later it died.
The second riptide was down to 2 wounds. Amazingly I didn't fire too much at it! I think I fired an annihilation barge at it once, caused 4 wounds. It lost 1, then 2 more from failed overcharging.
I got a greater unclean one into CC with a riptide and 1 shot it thanks to instant death balesword ,that was super cool. Riptide rolled a bunch of 1s for its jetpack move. GUO slugged up and rolled boxcars for the assault. Perfect storm kind of situation. Pretty much anything you might use to easily kill a wraithknight, will also kill a riptide. Which yeah, isn't all too much.
Depends on what his army is composed of. If hes running 40% or more of his points in riptides, you dont. There is simply no army in the game that can deal with that many wounds on 2+/5++ (or 3++). This is why they are brought to tourneys. The only solution is to hope to god it isnt KP and try to win via objectives.
If they only have one, focus fire with AT weapons is pretty much your only option. Few armies can get into CC with it and even fewer have enough AP2 high strength weapons to kill one in a reasonable amount of time. One fist doesnt do it, you need more than that, which is hard to find on a fast unit.
Better solution isnt to kill them, its to tarpit. Grab some gaunts, orks, spawn, or anything you can get a lot of cheap and run them into the riptides. They will spend most of the game punching the force.
Whoever thought putting an inv save on a shooting 2+ T6 MC creature was slowed. Whoever thought a 3++ was a good idea should be fired. This is the one unit that makes me not want to play tourneys anymore despite years of placing.
Edit: i see people suggesting poison. Do the math. Seriously, poison??? Lets say a venom since thats the only craft in the game who can put out cost-effective poison. You need whopping 120 poison shots to take down one stim'd riptide. 10 Venoms shooting at a single target. Is that even remotely reasonable? At the point level of 10 venoms he has 4+ riptides and an army that is spec'd out with the most mid-strength weaponary in the game. Do you even expect to get a 2nd volley with your venoms? Poison is a horrible way to kill 2+.
You gotta get that melee, son. Throw some poisoned Gargoyles in there. Will it take a while to kill the Riptide? Yes. Will it be totally worth it? Damn straight.
Riptides typically hurt themselves through the nova reactor more often than the opponent does through shooting/cc. However, there are some tricks that can be implemented to take them down.
1.) Blood Angels "Fear the Darkness" psychic power. Yes, blood angels aren't really seen much but a librarian with "fear the darkness" has a 50/50 chance of making the riptide simply run off the board edge.
2.) Terrify psychic power - same premise as above. use weaken resolve or horrify or some other Ld neg-mod first if possible.
And finally, probably the most universal way:
3.) Multi-charge! Tau like to form up groups during the enemy phase so more units can take advantage of the 'supporting fire' rule. While this is good for tau, because they get so much overwatch, it's actually good for you too! When a tau player bunches up in such a way, they become prime target for a multi charge -- and there isn't much of a downside because most tau have defensive grenades and all of them overwatch you regardless of how many targets you declare. So the trick is this - get into CC with a riptide, and as many other squishy tau units (or tanks!) as possible. A glance on a tank counts as 1 unsaved wound and a Penetrating hit counts as 2. Win combat by X, and force all the tau to take a morale hit at -X. You'll usually sweep not just the riptide, but the other 1 or 2 targets of the multi-charge as well.
Fast units like bikes, jetbikes, beasts, and jump infantry are best for pulling off this maneuver.
26.8 hits (2/3 chance to hit) with 6.5 of them being 6's. 20.8 to-wound rolls on 4+ = 10.4 additional wounds - total 16.9 wounds.
2+ armor save = 2.70 failed saves 5+ feel no pain = 1.81 failed saves
So, rolling average doesn't even see you scrape 2 full wounds of a riptide with that unit. Now what it does do, however, is keep that pesky riptide locked in combat until the end of the game, so it doesn't shoot at you. That is as good as dead, but still not dead.
PrinceRaven wrote: They should be out of combat in a few turns though, and having only lost something like a quarter of the brood to the Riptide's pathetic CC abilities.
Keep in mind that in subsequent turns the gargoyles' damage output decreases considerably, as they will be taking casualties also losing their charge bonuses to attacks. 20 of them will realistically tarpit the riptide for the entirety of a standard game of 40K before they would do enough wounds to kill it outright.
PrinceRaven wrote: They should be out of combat in a few turns though, and having only lost something like a quarter of the brood to the Riptide's pathetic CC abilities.
Keep in mind that in subsequent turns the gargoyles' damage output decreases considerably, as they will be taking casualties also losing their charge bonuses to attacks. 20 of them will realistically tarpit the riptide for the entirety of a standard game of 40K before they would do enough wounds to kill it outright.
They're still doing about a wound per round of combat on average, so it should theoretically only take them 3 turns to kill a Riptide, maybe less. Either way, that Riptide's dying before the Gargoyles are.
Still, probably a better idea to multi-charge, butcher a Fire Warrior squad and then sweep the Riptide.
26.8 hits (2/3 chance to hit) with 6.5 of them being 6's.
20.8 to-wound rolls on 4+ = 10.4 additional wounds - total 16.9 wounds.
2+ armor save = 2.70 failed saves
5+ feel no pain = 1.81 failed saves
So, rolling average doesn't even see you scrape 2 full wounds of a riptide with that unit. Now what it does do, however, is keep that pesky riptide locked in combat until the end of the game, so it doesn't shoot at you. That is as good as dead, but still not dead.
If they buy the FNP, then it is 1.81 as you say. However, unless you can catch up on wounds, that's a morale test that could break the unit. Regardless, 160 points of fearless gargoyles will tie up that Riptide for the game.
A clever tactic is to multi-charge with a bunch of gargoyles and then drop the doom within 6" of all the units in the combat. I killed a big squad of wraithguard, a wraithknight and a guardian squad this way once.
If you've bought into the "CC is terrible in 6th, only take shooting units!" mentality of the internet, then you probably just need to kill the markerlights and deal with the Riptide. Unless you've got grav-cannons or JotWW then you probably shouldn't spend too much time gunning him down.
They aren't easy to kill, but unsupported their damage output is quite low.
Now, note that I field my Riptides with Stim Injectors for FNP, and I like to field multiple to the tune of half of my points is wrapped up Riptides and an allied Buffmander(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Pen, MSS, C&CN, Onager, Neuroweb, Vectored Retro Thrusters). Also, I almost never attempt to put up the Nova Shield. There are a few situations I would, ie vs Grav Spam list. The FNP makes my Riptides extremely hardy, but people seem to be able to kill them as I offer few options for the first turn or two.
Here is a list of all the things that have killed my Riptides, at least that I can remember.
DE Poison, it take 90 Poison Shots to kill a Riptide without FNP, 135 with.
DE Dark Lances, Destructors, and Blasters. It takes 13.5 shots without FNP, 20 with.
DE Beastpack. Failed to sweep due to Buffmander Stubborn, died to mass wounds and rending.
Eldar Wraithguard. ID.
Eldar Wave Serpents, Spiders, Bladestorm.
Daemons Lord of Change. Failed to sweep due to Stubborn, killed after a couple of rounds of combat.
Daemon Lord of Change. Swept.
Daemon GUO with Balesword.
Dameon Plaguebearers.
Blood Angels Swept by three naked Assault Marines.
Blood Angels Swept by tooled out assault squad out of Land Raider.
Tau Massed Firepower, mostly Fusion/Plasma DS and Kroot Snipers.
Imperial Guard terrible rolling versus Quadgun, finished by Vendetta.
Imperial Guard Vendettas, Plasma Vets, and Melta Vets.
Things that almost killed them or would have given the chance...
Tyranids Poisoned Guants
Naked Tacitcal Marines
More FMCs Wraithknigths
Zombies
Doom
Pink Horrors in CC...
And the list goes on...
Most likely you will be playing against Riptides without FNP. There are a few options to take them out. If you have a CC option you can reliably get into combat with them like a FMC, Fearless Horde, Assault Transport etc ignore them with your shooting and shoot their support elements and scoring. If you can't get a CC unit to them, then weigh your ability to kill them vs your resiliency to ignoring them. Usually, avoid clumping up and wait out the firestorm until your CC element can neutralize them. You may not kill them, but even 5 naked tactical marines can neutralize a Riptide for a considerable portion of the game as the riptide kills one per turn, worse if its Earth Caste.
Riptides fold in CC, and there is very little they can confidently defeat in CC. Any dedicated CC element will tear them apart and sweep them. A multiassault is just gravy.
Edit: The NOVA Reactor. I've often dealt 1-2 wounds to my own Riptides throughout the course of a game. Sometimes, one to each on the first turn before my opponent could even do anything. Don't assume they will get their NOVA every turn, smart players are conservative with their NOVA use.
26.8 hits (2/3 chance to hit) with 6.5 of them being 6's.
20.8 to-wound rolls on 4+ = 10.4 additional wounds - total 16.9 wounds.
2+ armor save = 2.70 failed saves
5+ feel no pain = 1.81 failed saves
So, rolling average doesn't even see you scrape 2 full wounds of a riptide with that unit. Now what it does do, however, is keep that pesky riptide locked in combat until the end of the game, so it doesn't shoot at you. That is as good as dead, but still not dead.
If they buy the FNP, then it is 1.81 as you say. However, unless you can catch up on wounds, that's a morale test that could break the unit. Regardless, 160 points of fearless gargoyles will tie up that Riptide for the game.
A clever tactic is to multi-charge with a bunch of gargoyles and then drop the doom within 6" of all the units in the combat. I killed a big squad of wraithguard, a wraithknight and a guardian squad this way once.
If you've bought into the "CC is terrible in 6th, only take shooting units!" mentality of the internet, then you probably just need to kill the markerlights and deal with the Riptide. Unless you've got grav-cannons or JotWW then you probably shouldn't spend too much time gunning him down.
A riptide only has 2 attacks, correct? In which case you should cause a morale test every turn :-). And with the morale test needing to be twice a game turn, you're sure to run it down eventually. If not kill it. Better yet, I have seen Riptides running close in proximity. Multicharge both of them, focus all of your attacks on 1, and run them both down ;-)
Daemons have a lot of good tools. For CSM players or anyone who can ally with Daemons taking any greater daemon will give you a riptide killing tool. Daemonettes chew them to pieces. Be careful as smash attacks can ID T5 stuff like typhus and daemon princes.
For other options psychic shriek is the best. FMC or drop podded shrieks will get the job done
necron99 wrote: I just started playing Tau a couple of weeks ago and one of our ringers played me with the new SM codex. He rhino rushed my riptides and tank shocked two of them off the board - didn't see that one coming Live and learn I guess...
Isn't the Riptide a Monstrous Creature? That makes it Fearless, so it cannot be Tank Shocked away.
gwarsh41 wrote: Last night I got into CC with one using my catacomb command barge. It punched itself in the face a few times, I whacked on it with my warscythe a little. 2 turns later it died.
Sorry for the OT but, im assuming your talking about MSS, i though it didn't work while embarked on a CCB
I just throw poisoned gargoyles at it.
With poison and HoW, it usually takes 4 wounds from it straight away.
Chances are it will either kill its self with the reactor or be pinned in combat until it dies.
I really dont get why people worry about them so much.
They are 200+ points when kitted and they are a solid choice, but still easy enough to bring them down.
I think the easiest one i killed was against a newer player running a pair of them who decided to throw one at swarmlord.
Ending is kind of obvious on that one..
With my daemons though, i find a thirster kills it off pretty quickly and without much effort or damage in return.
To kill Riptides you need a high concentration of high strength (or fixed effectiveness) AP2 fire that can reliably acquire and kill one. Plasma/Lascannons are very good choices, if you have a Codex gimmick like JOTWW then consider them, but don't bother with CC units. The Assault phase is inherently unreliable so at the very most consider that last.
No, its not easy to kill Riptides. Yeah, they fold in CC, but so what? This is Tau. If you reach a Riptide in CC your opponent did something wrong; in between their ability to mass overwatch fire, jump away in the assault phase and fire from 72'' away very easily CC cannot be counted upon to an even greater extent.
This is of course all well and good until you face the stupidity of Farsight Riptides that can re-roll their Nova Charge for a 90% chance to get a 3++, in which case you're boned unless by some chance you can win the game irregardless of their interference.
But oh, they're WS1, so that's totally fair.
Good units for killing Riptides:
Black Knights
Space Marine Bikers with Grav Guns
Imperial Guard Veterans with plasma gusn
Vendetta Gunships
Storm Raven Gunships
Sternguard with combi-weapon spam (but a bit inefficient honestly)
Grav Centurions (If you get close enough)
Pairs of Space Marine Lascan Devastator Squads or Tri-Las Predators
Leman Russ Executioner
IG Company Command Squad with 4x Plasma
A personal hypothesis; Assault Cannon Land Speeders
Sounds like a fair few options but in reality a lot of those choices are going to be of limited availability or effectiveness (overall), as well as of greater cost and requiring lists built around them.
patzerwv wrote: Initiative tests are fun too. When the land speeder storm arrives and he goes blind let the fun begin!
Pfft, you think? Its Tau. Those normal rules that affect everybody else? 'Eh, what are they?' Tau battlesuits get Blacksun Filters by default, and thus immunity to blind.
I've used all of these in the past to wreck Riptides. Honestly, I've never really had a problem with Riptides. I've even killed one with a Space Marine tactical squad. (My sergeants have melta bombs, and the Riptide couldn't kill the Marines fast enough to avoid getting the majority of his wounds bombed away.)
Mass bolter fire seems to work just as well on it as it would on a terminator squad.
Otherwise any low AP shots seem to do ok. Most people Nova Reactor for 3++ but when i do my Riptide seems to just kill himself slowly when i try so i dont.
Dark Eldar has a rather easy time with those Riptides. I've seen a couple of Venoms putting it down to a single wound with a round (maybe 2) of shooting. If there was a Splinter Cannon Warrior squad nearby, it definitely would have gotten down in 1 tun.
Jackal wrote: I really dont get why people worry about them so much.
They are 200+ points when kitted and they are a solid choice, but still easy enough to bring them down.
I think the easiest one i killed was against a newer player running a pair of them who decided to throw one at swarmlord.
Ending is kind of obvious on that one..
With my daemons though, i find a thirster kills it off pretty quickly and without much effort or damage in return.
Yes, a Riptide is easy to take down if your opponent is dumb enough to throw one at the best close combat model in the game, but I'm operating under the assumption that most Tau players know that close combat is bad for Tau. With the Riptide's mobility you need to chase it down with FMCs, Beasts or Jump guys, slower models simply won't be able to catch up.
Favorite way with CSM: Daemon Prince w/ wings, DoK/DoN, and Fury Axe/Black Mace. I'm gonna hunt you down and beat you silly
Favorite way with Necrons: Maximum Threat Overload, Doomsday Arks, Charging Wraiths, Heavy D's blasting away, C'tan with Time's Arrow and Entropic Strike, Deathmarks, etc. Pretty much put out enough scary gak (wielding AP 1 & 2 or tesla with my immortals or whatnot) that my opponent figures it might be better not to bring a riptide to a battle ever again.
zteknon wrote: Mass bolter fire seems to work just as well on it as it would on a terminator squad.
Otherwise any low AP shots seem to do ok. Most people Nova Reactor for 3++ but when i do my Riptide seems to just kill himself slowly when i try so i dont.
It takes an average of 216 bolter shots to kill T6 W4 2+/5++. That's a Dreadknight. Riptides are T6 W5 2+/5++ with FnP and possibly 3++.
xghostmakerx wrote: Lots of poison is my go-to Riptide killer. Plus, rending is good as well.
As a drop pod, crimson fist, sterngaurd player, this is my answer. Just a ton of hellfire shots will kill it. If you have two squads shooting at it, only one has to be in rapid fire range and you should kill it in one turn of fire.
I field 2 riptides regularly. My greatest enemy seems to be myself: I fail a lot of my nova charges. I have been bladestormed to death by a squad of guardians, cc'd to death by an eldar farseer on a bike (he had some guardians with him), and even killed by an archon with a huskblade. Its not hard to kill them, just hard to shoot it to death. If you can catch it and keep it in close combat, its useless and probably dead.
The only problem is that they gave it 12 inch movement and a jump move in the assault phase, so catching it in CC is hard if you don't have fast moving assault units.
Aeroroot wrote: I field 2 riptides regularly. My greatest enemy seems to be myself: I fail a lot of my nova charges. I have been bladestormed to death by a squad of guardians, cc'd to death by an eldar farseer on a bike (he had some guardians with him), and even killed by an archon with a huskblade. Its not hard to kill them, just hard to shoot it to death. If you can catch it and keep it in close combat, its useless and probably dead.
You've had your Riptide killed by 3 units optimised to kill it (but still with terrible chances of killing it, you do the math on that Huskblade combat and on average it does less than half a wound) and you think you can make the blanket statement that they're not hard to kill? Pfft.
You can't rely on catching it in CC so that's out of the equation.
I have only downed one. It took two melta vet squads and a plasma squad, CCS, and supporting chimeras. Disembarked the three squads. CCS, with orders to twin link their own weapons, so, 3 plasma shots, one krak grenade, and commander on the quad gun (range just inside 24 inches), orders to twin link the plasma squad next to the riptide (6 plasma shots, 13 lasgun shots/laspistol), and the other two squads with a combined 6 melta and 26 lasgun/laspistol. Each chimera shot with multi lasers and heavy bolters (snap shot). Also, my Leman russ exeterminator with las cannon and heavy bolters finished off the last wound. Took all that to reduce the thing to nothing. Now, the rest of his army, and other Riptide, just survived to the next round.
PrinceRaven wrote: The only problem is that they gave it 12 inch movement and a jump move in the assault phase, so catching it in CC is hard if you don't have fast moving assault units.
Its a 6 inch movement in the movement phase, not 12, so someone has been playing this wrong and you might find getting into CC much easier now!
I'm confusing Riptides with other mecha creatures then, I'm pretty sure the wraithknight and the Imperial Baby Carrier both have 12 inch movement, RIptides still have the jet pack move though, and can double the amount of dice for it, so the're still pretty difficult to catch.
patzerwv wrote: Initiative tests are fun too. When the land speeder storm arrives and he goes blind let the fun begin!
Three words: Blacksun Filter baby!!!!!!!
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PrinceRaven wrote: The only problem is that they gave it 12 inch movement and a jump move in the assault phase, so catching it in CC is hard if you don't have fast moving assault units.
Am I missing something here? I thought the Riptide could only move 6" in the movement phase and then 2D6" in the assault phase.
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PrinceRaven wrote: I'm confusing Riptides with other mecha creatures then, I'm pretty sure the wraithknight and the Imperial Baby Carrier both have 12 inch movement, RIptides still have the jet pack move though, and can double the amount of dice for it, so the're still pretty difficult to catch.
Correct, Wraithknights move 12". Dreadknights move 12" as long as they purchased a Teleporter for 75pts.
On another note, would grav centurions in a raven be a reliable way to kill riptides?
Grav Centurions would be alright, but aren't grav weapons fairly short ranged? unless you could get them in close and quickly, I don't think that they'd be that effective.
On another note, would grav centurions in a raven be a reliable way to kill riptides?
Yes and no.
If you have plenty of LARGE LOS blocking terrain to avoid the interceptor and survive then proceed to go into hover and drop them off(i cant remember if thats how you do it) you would have basically one chance at blowing up 1, but min squad of 3 should just barely kill it. assuming it isnt in 4+ ruin saves.
(edit forgot about grav amps. 3man squad should just kill 1 even in 4+ cover) (its 24" salvo 3/5) honestly even a land raider driving up field and flatting out turn 1 then move 6 drop 6 would be enough to get them in range of anything asides from perhaps playing in hammer and anvil.
As a CSM player I'd either take out the riptide with a winged DP with a black mace or infiltrate a squad of havocs (chosen if troops) all with plasma guns & combi-plas
I think that the main point with Riptides is this: If an opponent is fielding 2-3 of them (or even the 4 that some ridiculous lists are showing now) over 1/2 of their points is tied in these units.
Now what about their troops? As a tyranid player, I'll wreck everything else on the board THEN line up the Riptides. Usually, by this point, the board should be flooded by gribbles that'll restrict the Riptide movement. I'll catch them and take care of them in my own time.
Aeroroot wrote: I field 2 riptides regularly. My greatest enemy seems to be myself: I fail a lot of my nova charges. I have been bladestormed to death by a squad of guardians, cc'd to death by an eldar farseer on a bike (he had some guardians with him), and even killed by an archon with a huskblade. Its not hard to kill them, just hard to shoot it to death. If you can catch it and keep it in close combat, its useless and probably dead.
You've had your Riptide killed by 3 units optimised to kill it (but still with terrible chances of killing it, you do the math on that Huskblade combat and on average it does less than half a wound) and you think you can make the blanket statement that they're not hard to kill?
Well, if the first round of combat, the Archon doesn't get the wound, still no worries. The Riptide isn't going to do anything to the Archon. The Archon should do a wound in the second round of combat, and that's all the Archon needs since the Huskblade causes ID.
Aeroroot wrote: I field 2 riptides regularly. My greatest enemy seems to be myself: I fail a lot of my nova charges. I have been bladestormed to death by a squad of guardians, cc'd to death by an eldar farseer on a bike (he had some guardians with him), and even killed by an archon with a huskblade. Its not hard to kill them, just hard to shoot it to death. If you can catch it and keep it in close combat, its useless and probably dead.
You've had your Riptide killed by 3 units optimised to kill it (but still with terrible chances of killing it, you do the math on that Huskblade combat and on average it does less than half a wound) and you think you can make the blanket statement that they're not hard to kill?
Well, if the first round of combat, the Archon doesn't get the wound, still no worries. The Riptide isn't going to do anything to the Archon. The Archon should do a wound in the second round of combat, and that's all the Archon needs since the Huskblade causes ID.
Killing the first one is a little tough, unless he has the reroll to wound combat drug, or +1 strength combat drug and 2 pain tokens. The second one will be a lot easier with double strength.
Also an archon with huskblade isnt optimized to kill a riptide. He is optimized to score slay the warlord.
An archon with flesh gauntlets and a Llamyan is optimized to kill a riptide. 2+ to wound, ID, allows armor saves. Still does less than 1 wound per turn, but the novacharged 3++ doesnt mean jack.
Also a clonefield could completely shut down a riptide in combat, so that would be optimized.
roxor08 wrote: I think that the main point with Riptides is this: If an opponent is fielding 2-3 of them (or even the 4 that some ridiculous lists are showing now) over 1/2 of their points is tied in these units.
Now what about their troops? As a tyranid player, I'll wreck everything else on the board THEN line up the Riptides. Usually, by this point, the board should be flooded by gribbles that'll restrict the Riptide movement. I'll catch them and take care of them in my own time.
This is the strategy that I am thinking of using, similar to the way I feel flyers should be dealt with as a Tyranid player. My Tau associate has not built his riptide yet, though, and I haven't had the opportunity to try the tactic out. How do the Riptide's guns do against big hordes of t3 gribblies? Psychic buffs seem necessary to me.
Aeroroot wrote: I field 2 riptides regularly. My greatest enemy seems to be myself: I fail a lot of my nova charges. I have been bladestormed to death by a squad of guardians, cc'd to death by an eldar farseer on a bike (he had some guardians with him), and even killed by an archon with a huskblade. Its not hard to kill them, just hard to shoot it to death. If you can catch it and keep it in close combat, its useless and probably dead.
You've had your Riptide killed by 3 units optimised to kill it (but still with terrible chances of killing it, you do the math on that Huskblade combat and on average it does less than half a wound) and you think you can make the blanket statement that they're not hard to kill?
Well, if the first round of combat, the Archon doesn't get the wound, still no worries. The Riptide isn't going to do anything to the Archon. The Archon should do a wound in the second round of combat, and that's all the Archon needs since the Huskblade causes ID.
Killing the first one is a little tough, unless he has the reroll to wound combat drug, or +1 strength combat drug and 2 pain tokens. The second one will be a lot easier with double strength.
Also an archon with huskblade isnt optimized to kill a riptide. He is optimized to score slay the warlord.
An archon with flesh gauntlets and a Llamyan is optimized to kill a riptide. 2+ to wound, ID, allows armor saves. Still does less than 1 wound per turn, but the novacharged 3++ doesnt mean jack.
Also a clonefield could completely shut down a riptide in combat, so that would be optimized.
I actually enjoy running my Archon with Huskblade/Soultrap/Clonefield. Sure, it's not the best combination against all comers, but it's still kinda fun. I used to run him with Bloodbrides with 3xShardnet so the 'nets could hug the guy the Archon was fighting to pretty much guarantee that the Archon wouldn't see any returning attacks. But that's been a while. I haven't really played much 6th with my DE.
To all the DE players who claim their poison is great anti-Riptide, how many shots does it average to take one down?
Because the math says it's over 100 splinter shots to kill an uncharged Riptide. Something like 116 shots to be exact. I don't doubt that with good rolls you can obliterate a Riptide with an entire army's worth of DE shooting, but I imagine it would be highly dice dependent, both yours and your opponent's.
Thing is, the Riptide is something of a secondary target for DE anyway. It doesn't put out enough firepower to be terribly threatening, compared to other targets.
If a DE army is piling fire onto a Riptide it's generally because they've already killed everyone else.
Darklight weapons need less shots. S8, AP 2 fire is plentiful in DE.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: To all the DE players who claim their poison is great anti-Riptide, how many shots does it average to take one down?
Because the math says it's over 100 splinter shots to kill an uncharged Riptide. Something like 116 shots to be exact. I don't doubt that with good rolls you can obliterate a Riptide with an entire army's worth of DE shooting, but I imagine it would be highly dice dependent, both yours and your opponent's.
Well a little rough mathhammer. First would be poisoned weapons. You need 30 wounds on the Rip to fail 5 times (2+ Sv). Which is 60 hits (4+ poison). At BS4 thats about 90 shots. Although those numbers can vary alot with Twinlinked weapons.
With the Lances its a good deal less. S8 AP2. You need about 8 wounds(5++ Sv). Which is 9ish hits, so 12 shots at BS4.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: To all the DE players who claim their poison is great anti-Riptide, how many shots does it average to take one down?
Because the math says it's over 100 splinter shots to kill an uncharged Riptide. Something like 116 shots to be exact. I don't doubt that with good rolls you can obliterate a Riptide with an entire army's worth of DE shooting, but I imagine it would be highly dice dependent, both yours and your opponent's.
Well a little rough mathhammer. First would be poisoned weapons. You need 30 wounds on the Rip to fail 5 times (2+ Sv). Which is 60 hits (4+ poison). At BS4 thats about 90 shots. Although those numbers can vary alot with Twinlinked weapons.
With the Lances its a good deal less. S8 AP2. You need about 8 wounds(5++ Sv). Which is 9ish hits, so 12 shots at BS4.
So basically sacrifice the firepower of your entire or most of your army's AT or anti-infantry for a turn to kill a single model that barely breaks 200 points (working on the assumption that they didn't risk Nova Charge or get it easily through ECPA), in an army that folds like wet tracing paper if the opening salvo is ineffective. Sure, that sounds completely viable.
Actually 12 darklight shots is far from all of my antitank for DE. Darklances are the standard vehicle gun, for free, after all, unless you only use venoms. Disintegrators aren't shabby either. They won't wound as much, but fire far more shots..
That would be about half of it, if i really wanted it dead in one turn. I would be more likely to kill tanks with them, and then kill the riptide once that was done. Riptides are resilient, but not all that scary. Other targets would be higher priority.
If you are running venomspam you can get something like 18 Venoms into a 2000 pt list. That's 216 shots. 90 of that still leaves plenty to go around.
I guess it really comes down to whether you think the Riptide is worth killing in the first place. Often it's better just to ignore it.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: To all the DE players who claim their poison is great anti-Riptide, how many shots does it average to take one down?
Because the math says it's over 100 splinter shots to kill an uncharged Riptide. Something like 116 shots to be exact. I don't doubt that with good rolls you can obliterate a Riptide with an entire army's worth of DE shooting, but I imagine it would be highly dice dependent, both yours and your opponent's.
I did the math earlier.
BS4 Poison. 90 shots , 135 with FNP. So, most Riptides will be killed by seven and a half Venoms. Ironically, the exact same number of shots it would take to kill five Terminators.
Dark Lances. 14 Dark Lances, 21 with FNP. Never fire them against a Nova Charged Shield, everything else is a better target.
So, it would take 3 Ravagers and 3 Venoms to kill a standard Riptide.
And as good as their shooting is, a Beast Pack with allied Shard Wielding Jetseer is much much better at killing Riptides.
I know the time I took two Riptides at 1k, the DE player with 5 Venoms and 3 Ravagers killed both by Turn 2...
I think one of the best ways for some armies would be an alpha strike, where you go first. Riptide won't be overcharged, 4 sternguard with combi-plasma should do some damage.
I've only had one game against a riptide with my shunt-GK list, and my warp rift attempt failed...but the "roll a 3+ or riptide dies turn 1" seems to be the best I've come up with.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: To all the DE players who claim their poison is great anti-Riptide, how many shots does it average to take one down?
Because the math says it's over 100 splinter shots to kill an uncharged Riptide. Something like 116 shots to be exact. I don't doubt that with good rolls you can obliterate a Riptide with an entire army's worth of DE shooting, but I imagine it would be highly dice dependent, both yours and your opponent's.
Typically DE have the range and maneuverability to hit the other things in the tau army. By the time they finally get around to killing the riptide, they have take a wound or two and then you are shooting a mix of dark lances AND posion.
If you get to that stage in the game, well they die very quickly. DE can maneuver their entire army to shoot at a tide and everything they bring can hurt it.
Often though, DE get shot off the table before they even get to shoot. DE win big-lose big especilly against tau.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: To all the DE players who claim their poison is great anti-Riptide, how many shots does it average to take one down?
Because the math says it's over 100 splinter shots to kill an uncharged Riptide. Something like 116 shots to be exact. I don't doubt that with good rolls you can obliterate a Riptide with an entire army's worth of DE shooting, but I imagine it would be highly dice dependent, both yours and your opponent's.
Well a little rough mathhammer. First would be poisoned weapons. You need 30 wounds on the Rip to fail 5 times (2+ Sv). Which is 60 hits (4+ poison). At BS4 thats about 90 shots. Although those numbers can vary alot with Twinlinked weapons.
With the Lances its a good deal less. S8 AP2. You need about 8 wounds(5++ Sv). Which is 9ish hits, so 12 shots at BS4.
So basically sacrifice the firepower of your entire or most of your army's AT or anti-infantry for a turn to kill a single model that barely breaks 200 points (working on the assumption that they didn't risk Nova Charge or get it easily through ECPA), in an army that folds like wet tracing paper if the opening salvo is ineffective. Sure, that sounds completely viable.
Who said anything about viable? Someone asked about how many shots it would take and I gave a rough answer. IMHO the Riptide is one of the most overrated pieces on the board. It's reputation is the only thing that justifies its costs. It draws fire that it shouldn't. Those 90 shots will wipe almost every scoring Tau model off the board in round 1. Then who cares what the Rip can do
How well or not well would Mephiston handle this thing? I mean he only has to sneak one wound through to instant death it with the force. I am not sure of the riptide's initiative but i am assuming it's lower than meph's. I am also assuming that the riptide doesn't have enough attacks to kill Mephiston in 2-3 turns of fighting.
What about 10 death company storming out of a LR with 2 powerfists? That's 40 regular attacks at str 5, and 8 powerfist attacks.
Mephiston does have an AP3 sword, so he'll have to get through the Riptide's 2+ armour. Fortunately the Riptide, like most Tau units, is hilariously bad at combat, so Mephiston can just keep wailing on it until he gets a wound through and IDs without worrying about the Riptide doing any damage back unless the Tau player gets exceedingly lucky.
I have to second the Blood Angels Fear the Darkness power. You can get a bunch of them on Librarians and Furioso Librarians and just scare the Tau army off the board. It works great on Broadside deathstars also since those types of Tau builds don't use an Ethereal.
Feasible wrote: Psychic Powers are usually best. Psychic Shriek
with a 3++ save? Not really, Puppet Master on the other hand...
If you are facing Riptides with a 3++, they are doing it wrong. The Nova Shield should be used exceedingly sparingly. I don't think I've put a Nova Shield up in my last twelve tournament games.
Plus, not putting the shield up incentivizes opponents to shoot at them.
"What an interesting game. It seems like the only way to win is not to play at all."
I.e. don't fire at the fething Riptide, maybe tarpit it if your army's good at tar pitting, otherwise kill all the other Tau and then sorry about Riptides. And if you're lucky or your opponent is inexperienced, the Riptide may have Nova Charged itself half to death by the time you get to it....
SisterSydney wrote: "What an interesting game. It seems like the only way to win is not to play at all."
I.e. don't fire at the fething Riptide, maybe tarpit it if your army's good at tar pitting, otherwise kill all the other Tau and then sorry about Riptides. And if you're lucky or your opponent is inexperienced, the Riptide may have Nova Charged itself half to death by the time you get to it....
As an IG player Ive almost realized that you have to ignore them. Take out the opponents fragile troops and other key targets and if there is nothing else to shoot at then I guess you fire at it.
Force Weapons (Many a Tervigon, even Skarbrand, has been erased by a TDASS Librarian), Grav, and Plasma. TH/SS terminators may work, given that they might survive the overwatch necessary to get to it.
Plus the Talismen won't help, seeing as you can't DTW on a Force Weapon.
In this article I've seen mention of a 5++ save... where is that coming from?
On topic, I usually run 2 of them and can vouch for the difficulty of catching them in melee. The only time I've had one in melee is when I assaulted some spawn to keep them busy for a round while my fire warriors sat on an objective in the second last round of a game. I've lost 6 total in my games using them
1) Iyanden list wraithguard/serpent spam I got hit with a d-gun and rolled 1
2) massed las cannon fire (trip-las predator, 3 oblits, and a land raider with 2)
3) tried drones with one and ran off the board
4-6) nova charged all my wounds (in a single game I didn't pass once for any of them)
I don't know what you guys mean by not having a high damage output either. They are almost always the main source of most of my damage.
The 5++ is from the Riptides big ol shield on its arm.
I personally spread out and just let it shoot. I don't run Terminators or anything super expensive in my lists, so if it kills 4-5 infantry models a turn, oh well.
Tau player 1: Riptides should be ignored, they don't do much damage.
Tau player 2: My Riptides eat your faces, you can't ignore them as they are super.
Tau player 1: It is not hard to kill one, just CC it to death.
Tau player 2: You never catch my Riptides on CC and even if you did, you'd have a hard time killing it.
no tplayed it yet but my plan is an autarch with warp pack , death spinner and the shard of anaris.....couple of decent shooting options to start off then assault it getting me 3 attacks, hitting on a 2+, wounding on a 2+ (with rending and instant death). so hopefully one of them getting through should be enough.....autarch isn't the warlord so it's not losing me a VP either if I lose the combat.
dunno if it'll work everytime but should be a good fight and will work for wriathknights too hopefully
Georidio wrote: no tplayed it yet but my plan is an autarch with warp pack , death spinner and the shard of anaris.....couple of decent shooting options to start off then assault it getting me 3 attacks, hitting on a 2+, wounding on a 2+ (with rending and instant death). so hopefully one of them getting through should be enough.....autarch isn't the warlord so it's not losing me a VP either if I lose the combat.
dunno if it'll work everytime but should be a good fight and will work for wriathknights too hopefully
The Shard of Anaris only causes ID in challenged, neither the Riptide or the Wraithknight are characters with the exception of O'Vesa.
Georidio wrote: no tplayed it yet but my plan is an autarch with warp pack , death spinner and the shard of anaris.....couple of decent shooting options to start off then assault it getting me 3 attacks, hitting on a 2+, wounding on a 2+ (with rending and instant death). so hopefully one of them getting through should be enough.....autarch isn't the warlord so it's not losing me a VP either if I lose the combat.
dunno if it'll work everytime but should be a good fight and will work for wriathknights too hopefully
The Shard of Anaris only causes ID in challenged, neither the Riptide or the Wraithknight are characters with the exception of O'Vesa.
Wow, "in a challenge" I never read that before. Glad my Solitaire went the route of the laser lance.
Just as a quick thought though if I charge a riptide/knight can I not issue a challenge? Obv it can be declined but then the cc just nulls itself. As I read the challenge rules it doesn't say it can only be issued to characters. I am happy to be corrected though if I'm reading that wrong.
I play Sisters of Battle and orks and my strategy for dealing with Riptides are.
SoB: 3 units of Outflanking scouts in immolators = 5 meltas and a multi melta per squad, exorcists in the middle of the board. Up to 18 cover ignoring meltas and/or 3d6 Str8 AP1 48" missle volleys reaching their target on turn 1 (unless there is football field deployment) means either way riptide or possibly riptides will drop.
Orks: Drop in with Zagstruk and 15-20 stormboyz and lock them up in CC.
Problem with outflanking scouts is the Early Warning Override. To make it work, the scouts must stay in their Rhino on the round they arrive and content themselves with two melta shots apeice, then hope they dont get stunned in the rhino before they get out. it's dicey (literally). If you get out when you outflank, you may be dead before you fire with the guns that matter.
I bring that up because I did it to my friend who was trying Sisters out two nights ago. My Riptides ate those squads.
Jancoran wrote: Problem with outflanking scouts is the Early Warning Override. To make it work, the scouts must stay in their Rhino on the round they arrive and content themselves with two melta shots apeice, then hope they dont get stunned in the rhino before they get out. it's dicey (literally). If you get out when you outflank, you may be dead before you fire with the guns that matter.
I bring that up because I did it to my friend who was trying Sisters out two nights ago. My Riptides ate those squads.
... One Riptide with EWO killed 3 squads?
Um. Was he an idiot and put every model so it fit under a single large blast?
Jancoran wrote: Problem with outflanking scouts is the Early Warning Override. To make it work, the scouts must stay in their Rhino on the round they arrive and content themselves with two melta shots apeice, then hope they dont get stunned in the rhino before they get out. it's dicey (literally). If you get out when you outflank, you may be dead before you fire with the guns that matter.
I bring that up because I did it to my friend who was trying Sisters out two nights ago. My Riptides ate those squads.
So what you're saying is, get extra armor on outflanking immolators.
Jancoran wrote: Problem with outflanking scouts is the Early Warning Override. To make it work, the scouts must stay in their Rhino on the round they arrive and content themselves with two melta shots apeice, then hope they dont get stunned in the rhino before they get out. it's dicey (literally). If you get out when you outflank, you may be dead before you fire with the guns that matter.
I bring that up because I did it to my friend who was trying Sisters out two nights ago. My Riptides ate those squads.
... One Riptide with EWO killed 3 squads?
Um. Was he an idiot and put every model so it fit under a single large blast?
Jancoran wrote: Problem with outflanking scouts is the Early Warning Override. To make it work, the scouts must stay in their Rhino on the round they arrive and content themselves with two melta shots apeice, then hope they dont get stunned in the rhino before they get out. it's dicey (literally). If you get out when you outflank, you may be dead before you fire with the guns that matter.
I bring that up because I did it to my friend who was trying Sisters out two nights ago. My Riptides ate those squads.
... One Riptide with EWO killed 3 squads?
Um. Was he an idiot and put every model so it fit under a single large blast?
Riptides
Plural.
Gee well I guess I should just go buy 5 riptides or whatever. Since It's literally impossible to destroy them, even in theory and no one should ever play anything but riptide spam. Or something. The future of 40k. Riptides at high noon, no terrain, no force org, winner take all Everyone else in the game sell your models on Bartertown and go play Warmachine immediately.
Jancoran wrote: Problem with outflanking scouts is the Early Warning Override. To make it work, the scouts must stay in their Rhino on the round they arrive and content themselves with two melta shots apeice, then hope they dont get stunned in the rhino before they get out. it's dicey (literally). If you get out when you outflank, you may be dead before you fire with the guns that matter.
I bring that up because I did it to my friend who was trying Sisters out two nights ago. My Riptides ate those squads.
... One Riptide with EWO killed 3 squads?
Um. Was he an idiot and put every model so it fit under a single large blast?
Two Riptides. and the outflanks didn't happen at the same time. Perhaps you're assuming they all magically come in at once all the time?
So what you're saying is, get extra armor on outflanking immolators.
Stunned or shaken is bad for the Dominions so extra armor wont help there. But ti may help if you want to keep it mobile enough to GET to a riptide that isn't within 18" of the board edge.
Gee well I guess I should just go buy 5 riptides or whatever. Since It's literally impossible to destroy them, even in theory and no one should ever play anything but riptide spam. Or something. The future of 40k. Riptides at high noon, no terrain, no force org, winner take all Everyone else in the game sell your models on Bartertown and go play Warmachine immediately.
Just the general sentiment I get from the powergamers currently attracted to Tau. And moreso the Riptide. I have no problem selling my 2500 points of in demand sisters of battle and going and buying those models if that's all that's competitive. But one must concider the consequences to the hobby if this is the case.
There must be a weakness. And it's not only Zagstruk's simultaneous deep strike/assault.
Of course 40k is in fact horribly, horribly broken and the gaming community should punish GW for it's inability to balance the game and provide a diverse playing field with depth. But that's a separate topic.
i just puppet master it and watch the tau players face as his riptides gun barrel slowly swings toward his army.....
I like this guys thinking, I did a similar thing to a broadside when they had the old dex. That big scary hammerhead went up in smoke turn 1 to my flying, puppet master wielding tyrant.
My khorne daemon themed army has skarbrand...
I pretty much give him the choice of, hounds kill all your scoring units or skarbrand kills your riptide, and they always go for the smart option.. The hounds so skarbrand gets lots of fun
As a Tau player I find it far more damaging when people just ignore the riptide and kill my pathfinders and or really anything but my kroot.
Best thing to do is tie it up in CC if you can, if you can't your volley of fire would probably be better spent killing the squishier tau units. The riptide is going to have the best saves of the tau army regardless of what you throw at it. Giving it the highest chance to negate your attacks. Take out its marker light support and the riptides impact will drop immensely.
Actually a Dreadknight is great for killing Riptides.
With a sword you have (without charging) on average 2.3 unsaved wounds that you then transform into ID with the force sword (2.9 with the charge)
Without a sword you make 1.5 unsaved wounds without the charge (1.9 with the charge)
If he has his 3++ it is still 1.2 unsaved wounds with the sword and 0.75 without (with no charge)
With your speed you can catch the riptide as long as you dont die beforehand so you need other units to take the shooting (other DKs, Stormravens, interceptors to burn the pathfinders/FW...)
The DK is to my mind probably one of the best MC killer in the game (iwht a sword), except for a few special cases (tyranids Swarmlord for instance^^)
Martel732 wrote: How do you get said dreadknight into HTH with JSJ unit?
Shunt 30" turn one - you should be pretty close. Next turn you move 12" then charge 12". The Riptide can only move 6" then 2d6" in the assault phase - on average you'll catch him turn 2 with intelligent deployment.
Martel732 wrote: Next question: how do you survive being so close to the Tau army?
You have to Shunt and usually run in Pairs. It still takes 144 BS3 Pulse Rifle Shots to kill a Dreadknight. Its nearly as survivable as a Riptide and Tau do not excel at killing Riptides. Even an IA Riptide firing everything only averages one unsaved wound and that is with a TLFusion Blaster, worse with SMS.
It takes intelligent deployment and shunting, but most Tau armies will lack the firepower to drop two Dreadknights. Not to mention the damage the Heavy Incinerators or the rest of your army will be doing. Most tau builds are build around weight of fire, lots of S7 and S5 which do not negate the 2+ AS.
Monster Hunter Broadsides may excel at killing TMCs or Daemon MCs, but struggle vs 2+ASMCs.
I have had a lot of luck killing Riptides with Tri-Las Predators with my CSM.
at only 140 points each, I get 9 potential shots, 2+ to wound and invulns only.I tend to drag one down to 1-2 wounds each turn, then I get shot to bits for being a CSM player lol
After that I tend to mass shots from either Noise Marines or run head first into CC with Spawn... Spawn are bloody amazing against Tau.. run 15 spawn against Tau players and laugh as they wonder to themselves why they bothered taking Sky Fire on their units.
Small correction on the DK: all of its CC attacks are from force weapons, regardless of Great Sword, as the model comes standard with 2 Nemesis Doomfists. This means that a DK always has the option to activate for ID (unless they Dark Excommunicate).
Martel732 wrote: Well goodie for GK I guess then. I encourage the GK to bring more good targets for the gravy guns.
Yep, that is the nature of 40k. Almost every unit/build has pretty hard counters and bad matchups with a few exceptions, and those are the ones we hear about the most until something comes out that wrecks them. SM Grav is the best counter for Wave Serpents right now and a great counter to the Riptide. And when its the Venom/Ravager spam DE list across the table the take a hit.
Martel732 wrote: Well goodie for GK I guess then. I encourage the GK to bring more good targets for the gravy guns.
Yep, that is the nature of 40k. Almost every unit/build has pretty hard counters and bad matchups with a few exceptions, and those are the ones we hear about the most until something comes out that wrecks them. SM Grav is the best counter for Wave Serpents right now and a great counter to the Riptide. And when its the Venom/Ravager spam DE list across the table the take a hit.
Its not perfect, but its the game we play.
I object to the specificity and availability of said counters, however.
I played Tau for the first time a couple of weeks ago and faced a riptide. It 3 turns of fire from my necron warriors, immortals, Crypteks, and GA (only losing 1 wound in the process) before I assaulted with 5 scarab bases plus a Overlord on CCB with Warscythe and mindshackle scarabs. It went down after two turns.
He was taking 20 attacks/turn just from the scarabs. It doesn't matter how strong it is, it just couldn't keep up from the sheer number of assault attacks. After seeing how ineffective ranged attacks were, close combat assaults are going to be my go-to tactic for a riptide from here on out.
disdamn wrote: I played Tau for the first time a couple of weeks ago and faced a riptide. It 3 turns of fire from my necron warriors, immortals, Crypteks, and GA (only losing 1 wound in the process) before I assaulted with 5 scarab bases plus a Overlord on CCB with Warscythe and mindshackle scarabs. It went down after two turns.
He was taking 20 attacks/turn just from the scarabs. It doesn't matter how strong it is, it just couldn't keep up from the sheer number of assault attacks. After seeing how ineffective ranged attacks were, close combat assaults are going to be my go-to tactic for a riptide from here on out.
Why did you bother shooting it? You could just assault it with the Scarabls or wait until the DLord caught it.
disdamn wrote: I played Tau for the first time a couple of weeks ago and faced a riptide. It 3 turns of fire from my necron warriors, immortals, Crypteks, and GA (only losing 1 wound in the process) before I assaulted with 5 scarab bases plus a Overlord on CCB with Warscythe and mindshackle scarabs. It went down after two turns.
He was taking 20 attacks/turn just from the scarabs. It doesn't matter how strong it is, it just couldn't keep up from the sheer number of assault attacks. After seeing how ineffective ranged attacks were, close combat assaults are going to be my go-to tactic for a riptide from here on out.
I can't help but ask if the Riptide ever failed a wound versus the Scarabs and thus lost its armor save due to entropic strike because that just makes me laugh a little bit.
I did take 1 wound from the scarabs and the final were done from the overlord.
I completely forgot about the ES rule stripping armour. Didn't matter too much with the overlord and warcythe anyway, but I wish I had remembered that at the time because that would have been funny.
Zagman, if it's the only thing in range to shoot, why not shoot it? And it does take a couple of turns for scarabs and CCB to catch a moving target across the board. It's not like I can assault on turn 1.
Do sniper Scouts work well? En masse, wounding on 4+ and rending on a 6 and possibly even pinning it, surely you can force a lot of saves? (I have not started 6th Ed yet so I'm unfamiliar with current rules).
I have two units, one 5 man unit (4 snipers and a missile launcher) and a 7 man unit (Sgt Telion, 5 snipers and a missile launcher or heavy bolter).
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Do sniper Scouts work well? En masse, wounding on 4+ and rending on a 6 and possibly even pinning it, surely you can force a lot of saves? (I have not started 6th Ed yet so I'm unfamiliar with current rules).
I have two units, one 5 man unit (4 snipers and a missile launcher) and a 7 man unit (Sgt Telion, 5 snipers and a missile launcher or heavy bolter).
No, Snipers are terrible against Riptides when you work the averages, even more so when you factor in points efficiency. Scouts are even crappier at it when you consider they're only BS3.
Grav Centurions would work fine, but they only function if you actually get close to the enemy, which is easier said than done.
Vindicare Assassin. Shieldbreaker to get rid of the Invuln (I think a Battlesuit is considered 'wargear'), then just try and Rend it to Death wth Psycannons.
There are two sources of Invulnerable Save on the Riptide and both are listed seperately from the battle suit. First is the full time 5++ from the Riptide Shield Generator. Second is the Nova Reactor's Nova Shield 3++.
The Riptide Shield Generator is listed as a Wargear and thus vulnerable to the Vindicare.
The Nova Reactor is listed as a Special Rule and thus not vulnerable to the Vindicare.
BunnyCommando wrote: Vindicare Assassin. Shieldbreaker to get rid of the Invuln (I think a Battlesuit is considered 'wargear'), then just try and Rend it to Death wth Psycannons.
Failing that, Daemonhammer then Force.
Two marker lights to remove cover and a single pie plate removes the vindicare also.
Yeah, vindicare are definitely vulnerable to normal weight of fire, something tau have no difficulty fielding. They are nice as a distraction to draw fire away from your more important units, but I would not count on them in the pinch.
The approach I prefer to take to riptide hunting is a 'whole army' tactic. Modrak bomb, Dreadknights (with teleporters and incinerators), and Interceptors. Put so many units right in the midst of the tau gun line that one of them can charge it/them the following turn. (and shoot the heck out of prime targets that first turn) Activate force weapon, then *poof* no more big guns.
I wipe them out with masses plasma guns combined with a single wound from failing their armor or overheating rolls. Otherwise, I can just ignore them and wipe out the rest of their army. You can bet I'm not gonna waste a manticore shot on it unless it's surrounded by vehicles or infantry.
Neorealist wrote: Yeah, vindicare are definitely vulnerable to normal weight of fire, something tau have no difficulty fielding. They are nice as a distraction to draw fire away from your more important units, but I would not count on them in the pinch.
The approach I prefer to take to riptide hunting is a 'whole army' tactic. Modrak bomb, Dreadknights (with teleporters and incinerators), and Interceptors. Put so many units right in the midst of the tau gun line that one of them can charge it/them the following turn. (and shoot the heck out of prime targets that first turn) Activate force weapon, then *poof* no more big guns.
I'm wondering how this would work against an army fielding multiple Riptides, like the 5-Tide Farsight list, or an army using 4 Riptides and 3 R'varnas (3 Riptides, 3 R'varnas, and an allied Riptide).
Nilok 560494 wrote:I'm wondering how this would work against an army fielding multiple Riptides, like the 5-Tide Farsight list, or an army using 4 Riptides and 3 R'varnas (3 Riptides, 3 R'varnas, and an allied Riptide).
Good question. If I can get them tied up in CC I suspect that it'd be a cake walk? That is a 'lot' of points tied up in very few models. That said, I haven't played against that specific type of list yet so it's just conjecture. I'd suspect such a list would also have trouble with many of the (non-heavy support counting as scoring) objective-based missions.
Neorealist wrote: Good question. If I can get them tied up in CC I suspect that it'd be a cake walk? That is a 'lot' of points tied up in very few models. That said, I haven't played against that specific type of list yet so it's just conjecture. I'd suspect such a list would also have trouble with many of the (non-heavy support counting as scoring) objective-based missions.
I suspect the Riptides would be the easiest to tied up. The R'varnas have a lot of CC protections from flack with it's Flechette Dischargers and 6" from base S2 Armorbane effect. I think would would need a heavy CC infantry to keep it tied up.
If it can use the 6" blast effect at the start of the movement phase to get out of base contact, I think i can move freely and shoot.
Nilok wrote: I suspect the Riptides would be the easiest to tied up. The R'varnas have a lot of CC protections from flack with it's Flechette Dischargers and 6" from base S2 Armorbane effect. I think would would need a heavy CC infantry to keep it tied up.
If it can use the 6" blast effect at the start of the movement phase to get out of base contact, I think i can move freely and shoot.
Fortunately the Grey knight codex is 'full' of units that are beasts in CC.
Heck, I'd go so far as to say practically 'everything' in the codex is apart from some of the vehicles and a few of the squishier henchmen types. Force/Power weapons on everything generally means owning the assault phase, the problem usually is surviving to get there in the first place with expensive models (with attendant low model count) and few long-ranged shooting options.
The teleporter rush goes a long way to fixing that, essentially giving your opponent exactly one round of benefiting from their superior shooting before they get assaulted.
Well, I just had a 3 match slugfest with a Tau suit army and it took a lot to bring him down. When the RT nova charges things can get ugly. All the suit systems are pretty nuts too. If you see one with drones, don`t even bother. You`ll rack up a ton of wounds, the drones will take most of them and if you`re lucky maybe one wound gets through to the RT. I have successfully taken out RTs in close combat, but keep in mind that he is a MC and thus has ap2 on his melee attacks. You can however negate a RT pretty easily just by throwing a blob into CC with him. The real trick is getting into range to charge. And then pray your foe doesn't get lucky with the bucketloads of overwatch that are inevitably coming your way. Lots of people will say Dirge Casters for that if you`re using chaos, but unless you've got one on a LR it probably won`t get close enough to matter. You can shoot down a RT too, but it takes dedicated firepower and you really have to be careful not to forget about the rest of the Tau army.
That being said, nice 2+ armour save. Make it 50 more times.
Tell your opponent that you concede, than follow up with a firm handshake , any game with 2 or more riptides is a game not worth any respectable person's time.
earlofburger wrote: Tell your opponent that you concede, than follow up with a firm handshake , any game with 2 or more riptides is a game not worth any respectable person's time.
Just like games with two or three or four or five or six or seven or eight Wave Serpents? Or two or Three Helldrakes? Or two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Vendettas? Or Wraiths, or Night Scythes, or FMCs, or Khorne Hounds, or Screamers, or the Doom, or lions or tigers or bears oh my.
Quit whining and act like an adult. Its a legal Army list and FOC selection. Get off your high horse, many different people play this game for many different reasons. You may find taking two or three Riptides "Cheesy" or "Beardy" or OTT, etc. I don't really care what you think, they are a part of the game and people have just as much right to take them as any other legal selection. If you want to play casual and fluffy, do so, but leave your judgement and closed minded prejudice out of other people's game.
The question is how do you kill them. They have relatively low damage output if they are not supported, and that support is expensive as well. They are a tool, and certainly not the creme de la creme of 40k. With Bugs, IG, and Orks on the horizon we are going to see the Riptide be effectively countered.
For IG, you have quite a few options. IF you are mechanized they aren't doing terrible amounts of damage to you. IAs may attempt to NOVA charge and if so can be effective, but aren't great AT even vs Chimeras. HBCs aren't great AT either. Now, with the proper support they can be pretty effective an any of those roles. Usually support elements are the weak link but if you must kill the Riptide your best solutions are Vendettas, Chimeltavets, Chimplasmavets, and dakka. The rest of the Tau army will struggle against stock LRBTs as Front AV14 is a weakness of most Tau lists. Guard can still put down enough firepower to severely hurt Tau at a greater range. Ignore the Riptides for the 1st Turn or two until your elements which excel at killing them come into play and range. The Riptides won't be killing enough fast enough. Worst case scenario, it takes 72 BS3 Lasgun shots to punch a wound through a Riptide without orders or support. If its your style, huge blobs will beat and sweep sweep Riptides in combat, ally marines for some grav and ATKNF if need be. If the opportunity arises, lock it in combat, even guardsman can sweep a Riptide, they are the worse MCs in combat. Being an MC is almost a trap for Combat.
Ascalam wrote: To a degree i agree. They are a legal army selection.
Here's where i disagree.
No-one has the right to force you to play them if it will be 0 fun for you to do so.
In a tournament, you enter in the understanding that some matchups will not be fun.
For a casual game, why should you throw a couple of hours away on agame that only your opponent will enjoy?
Personally i don't mind fighting slightly cheesy lists. VERY cheesy is another thing entirely.
2 riptides. Ok, 3 is a bit beardy, but if i'm aware that he's going power-player i will up my list.
3 vendettas. Ok. 9 vendettas. I probably won't play you.
etc.
That may be true, however, I doubt someone would throw that at you without warning (unless you have a savage FLG), simply because it is fairly nuts. Yes, in a tournament, you should expect crazy stuff, but in a friendly game, you usually know the people you are playing against and see them every week or so.
If you would take up someone who has been wanting to play multiple riptides for their fluffy Gundam style army, how would you counter it?
Personally I would love to play my crazy 4 Riptide, 3 R'varna list idea at some point, but I would never just show up without warning.
If someone wanted to set up for a multi-riptide Gundam style army the only appropriate answer would be to run a Gundam army of your own to match it.
If the guy would lend me 7 riptides, so that he could run his 7, i'd be cool with it. That would be fair, and i would know from the beginning what i would be getting into. Hell, i'd love to do a riptide spam on riptide spam epic brawl, even though i don't play tau.
Popping a 7 riptide list in someone after they agree to play you and you set up a table, but before lists are exchanged, on the other hand...
If people then get vexed because you see the Gundam list from hell when you brought a list that has no earthly way of killing it, and refuse to play it, then they might be being a tad unreasonable. They know what their list is. They know some armies simply cannot do a thing to them without using the whole army on one of them.
Riptides are killable. Massive firepower or CC seem to work well. The few i've killed have all died to CC or the whole army shooting one of them down at a time.
My FLGS is a bit of a mix. The regulars are great, but you also have folk coming through en route to other stores who like to bring cheesefest lists, and spring them like a trap card.
You're playing Orks? Cool! Here's my 7 riptides!
You're playing DE? What list do i have that will own them hard?
etc..
These days i rarely play pickup games, as they always end up that way. Arranging fights with the regulars is a whole lot more fun, with far less cheese.
I love how people talk as if three Riptides are an autowin. That is not the case. If you look at across the board and see three Riptides and you pack up and refuse to play, you are a poor sport and I'd be glad never to play you.
I will agree a 7 Riptides list would be nuts, but guess what, its not a good list. Any Fast assault army, especially with first turn will effectively autowin. Any FMC army, will effectively auto Win.
If people think three Riptides is an autowin for their opponent they need to put on their big boy pants and become better players or fine tune their list or just toughen up. Otherwise, make sure your opponent is playing strictly casual... and then you shouldn't even care cause you aren't playing to win.
It comes down to communication, make sure you and you opponent are playing the same game and alot of people's problems disappear. If you want to play weak or fluffy lists ultra casual, make sure your opponent is on board. But, don't bring a weak or fluffly list and agree to play a competitive player and then blame them for your lack of enjoyment, that is on you.
Just like games with two or three or four or five or six or seven or eight Wave Serpents? Or two or Three Helldrakes? Or two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Vendettas? Or Wraiths, or Night Scythes, or FMCs, or Khorne Hounds, or Screamers, or the Doom, or lions or tigers or bears oh my.
Looks like I struck a nerve, how many riptides do you run? 4? 5? Also I find it funny that you mentioned all these power builds and not one is for my army, if orks even have one. Serpent spam and heldrakes are terrible cheese and this goes without saying but it's pointless to bring them up.
Quit whining and act like an adult. Its a legal Army list and FOC selection. Get off your high horse, many different people play this game for many different reasons. You may find taking two or three Riptides "Cheesy" or "Beardy" or OTT, etc. I don't really care what you think, they are a part of the game and people have just as much right to take them as any other legal selection. If you want to play casual and fluffy, do so, but leave your judgement and closed minded prejudice out of other people's game.
Do seriously want me to believe that people run riptides for fluff? People run riptides because they want to win, it's that simple. And it's true many people play this game for many different reasons, but anyone who is running more than 2 or 3 of the abominable riptide is a power gaming cheese master.
The question is how do you kill them. They have relatively low damage output if they are not supported, and that support is expensive as well. They are a tool, and certainly not the creme de la creme of 40k. With Bugs, IG, and Orks on the horizon we are going to see the Riptide be effectively countered.
Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.
Nope, because they would go down faster than a drunken prom date.
Multi-riptide isn't unbeatable. That's not my issue.
It's just terribly boring/unfun to play against. Especially when you add in the inevitable Tau gunline. Gunline armies are pretty fething tedious to play also. Beatable? Sure! Enjoyable game, not as a rule, though i've had a few fun games vs a gunline army.
I'd play Riptides because I dig giant robots more so than their competitive value, but I won't deny that their prowess is an incentive for me to field them.
Still, it doesn't change the fact that this is a game based around head to head competition and that spamming the most potent units you can is a highly competitive strategy. Each edition gets their turn at the top of the pile and currently Tau are up there and the Riptide is a reason why.
However, as I spent a large portion of the last year of 5th edition playing my Tau mostly against Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Necrons I can't say that I am particularly disappointed by the fact that the kid who everyone used to eat up for his lunch money spent his summer at the gym and came back to show the bullies what's for.
For those whose army recently had their day but find themselves on the short nd of the pulse rifle - that's the way the cookie crumbles in this game. Someday you'll have your place in the sun again, but for now the Tau are getting their turn to shine.
To those sitting near the bottom of the pile after years of playing an old codex. Don't worry, your turn is coming soon. You'll soon be listening to the rants of those who find your newfound capabilities 'broken' or 'overpowered.'
I will agree a 7 Riptides list would be nuts, but guess what, its not a good list. Any Fast assault army, especially with first turn will effectively autowin. Any FMC army, will effectively auto Win.
Not really. 4 Str 8 Large Blasts, 4 Secondary Systems, followed the guns of 3 R'varnas should put a decent dent in any rush list. In assault, don't forget you are dealing with 7(!) MCs. 4 or more in a single combat should tie up a unit indefinitely/ kill a weakened unit.
In addition, the jump moves afterwards for the regular riptides should move out of the threat radius.
It is genuinely funny to watch Tau players attempt to justify their victories with Riptides. Especially when they say such moronic things as 'just ignore the high strength AP2 pie plate dispenser with interceptor!'
If you don't compensate enough for 2+ save MC's which were previously seen once in a blue moon, you're boned, and you're increasingly boned with each additional Riptide they add. I have to tailor every single one of my lists now to be able to tackle double-tide, and at 600/1200 GW format that's almost impossible without compromising my list; 1500 just becomes manageable.
They're 30-40 points undercosted, absurdly effective, they get abilities some units wish they had for practically nothing; 5 points for interceptor, anyone? Having the ability to JSJ? TL Melta? Lets chuck in a Nova Reactor just 'cos.
I have watched Riptides single handedly carry entire games for many people. Such is the hilarity that I have yet to fail to predict the outcome of a game with double/triptide present. I rarely see Pathfinders, which Tau players claim is the only reason the Riptide even works, ever get used.
Intersting. I've lost 2 games against doubletide. One was my Nids vs Eldau and one of his Riptides had the buffmander and Eldrad hanging out with no LoS blocking terrain on the table in a kill point game. I had essentially no chance and didn't lose because of the riptides.
The other one was my playing Space Marines for the first time with a non-tweaked list against Torks. The Riptides did some damage but the only reason I lost was the boy squad I underestimated.
In neither game did I fire a single shot at the Riptides.
earlofburger wrote: Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.
No - he's right. Unsupported (ie, without marker lights or a buffmander) they aren't that impressive damage wise.
lets see, S8 AP2 72" Large blast and 4 TL S5 AP5 30" ignore cover and line of sight is not impressive
I'm kind of scared of your army then.
It's a slightly better Leman Russ. I'm not scared of an individual Leman Russ' damage output.
..and it's more survivable than a leamn russ. I don't know the points difference though.
Although personally I don't like to play with them, because I like crisis suits better.
Co'tor Shas wrote: ..and it's more survivable than a leamn russ. I don't know the points difference though. Although personally I don't like to play with them, because I like crisis suits better.
Survivability is irrelevant if I don't care what it's shooting. And given an adequate amount of LoS blocking terrain I don't.
I second the thought that nothing is unbeatable in the right circumstances; and I'd find it unsportsman-like if an opponent decided to give my army a pass just because it happened to be designed using any preferred codexs' more efficient units, Riptides included.
This game is not all about you. it is a team effort where both of you come to have fun; so if your opponent shows up with a list your current list has difficulty with? Learn From It and come back next week with a concept better able to handle the new hotness. Giving someone a hard time over choosing to play the units they like the best seems pointlessly counter-intuitive to me.
Neorealist wrote: I second the thought that nothing is unbeatable in the right circumstances; and I'd find it unsportsman-like if an opponent decided to give my army a pass just because it happened to be designed using any preferred codexs' more efficient units, Riptides included.
This game is not all about you. it is a team effort where both of you come to have fun; so if your opponent shows up with a list your current list has difficulty with? Learn From It and come back next week with a concept better able to handle the new hotness. Giving someone a hard time over choosing to play the units they like the best seems pointlessly counter-intuitive to me.
So it's okay for the Tau player to show up with a ridiculous power list, but not okay for someone to decide "nah, not worth my time"?
It's a team effort to have fun, but that apparently doesn't extend to knowingly using multiple highly overpowered/undercosted units?
Just like games with two or three or four or five or six or seven or eight Wave Serpents? Or two or Three Helldrakes? Or two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Vendettas? Or Wraiths, or Night Scythes, or FMCs, or Khorne Hounds, or Screamers, or the Doom, or lions or tigers or bears oh my.
Looks like I struck a nerve, how many riptides do you run? 4? 5? Also I find it funny that you mentioned all these power builds and not one is for my army, if orks even have one. Serpent spam and heldrakes are terrible cheese and this goes without saying but it's pointless to bring them up.
Quit whining and act like an adult. Its a legal Army list and FOC selection. Get off your high horse, many different people play this game for many different reasons. You may find taking two or three Riptides "Cheesy" or "Beardy" or OTT, etc. I don't really care what you think, they are a part of the game and people have just as much right to take them as any other legal selection. If you want to play casual and fluffy, do so, but leave your judgement and closed minded prejudice out of other people's game.
Do seriously want me to believe that people run riptides for fluff? People run riptides because they want to win, it's that simple. And it's true many people play this game for many different reasons, but anyone who is running more than 2 or 3 of the abominable riptide is a power gaming cheese master.
The question is how do you kill them. They have relatively low damage output if they are not supported, and that support is expensive as well. They are a tool, and certainly not the creme de la creme of 40k. With Bugs, IG, and Orks on the horizon we are going to see the Riptide be effectively countered.
Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.
Yes, you struck a nerve. I don't like whining or people who think they know how everyone should play the game for their enjoyment.
I run two or Three at 1850/2000, and honestly in my Triptide Build I'd be better off only running two and swapping the third for a pair of Skyrays.
I never said people run Riptides are for fluff, I run mine to make my Suits and Drones themed army work. You obviously missed the entire point of that section of my post. Now, you have changed your tune, now more than two or three is cheese, before it was 2 or more. Your story is changing.
They do have a relatively low damage output when unsupported. If you they unsupported Riptides are king, there is little I can say to you that you will understand. Versus most targets and unsupported Riptide has a lower damage output than a stock Leman Russ at a greater cost. Where the Riptide excels is durability, not firepower. Even the O'VesaStar, a minimul two Riptide build runs into serious diminishing return with four and five Riptides. IMO, 2-3 is the Sweet Spot for most Riptide based lists.
You need to get off your high horse and stop being so judgmental. I have no problem with ultra casual gamers and if that is the kind of game someone wants, I will sometimes oblidge them but prefer to avoid such games. It pains me to be inefficient and create weak builds. I prefer competitive play and tell all of my potential opponents that, and if someone knows that is the game I am looking for and brings a weak list, then they have absolutely no right to judge me and whine and call cheese.
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.
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rigeld2 wrote:
earlofburger wrote: Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.
No - he's right. Unsupported (ie, without marker lights or a buffmander) they aren't that impressive damage wise.
rigeld2 wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote: ..and it's more survivable than a leamn russ. I don't know the points difference though.
Although personally I don't like to play with them, because I like crisis suits better.
Survivability is irrelevant if I don't care what it's shooting. And given an adequate amount of LoS blocking terrain I don't.
I'm glad someone outthere is playing the same game I do.
Its the whole casual vs competitive argument all over again. Make sure you and your opponent are playing the same game and most of these issues will disappear. What kills me is that anyone believes theirs is the only way to play the game, what arrogance and narcissism.
I will agree a 7 Riptides list would be nuts, but guess what, its not a good list. Any Fast assault army, especially with first turn will effectively autowin. Any FMC army, will effectively auto Win.
Not really. 4 Str 8 Large Blasts, 4 Secondary Systems, followed the guns of 3 R'varnas should put a decent dent in any rush list. In assault, don't forget you are dealing with 7(!) MCs. 4 or more in a single combat should tie up a unit indefinitely/ kill a weakened unit.
In addition, the jump moves afterwards for the regular riptides should move out of the threat radius.
Hardly an 'Auto WIn'.
Not really. A handful of FMCs would simply win against that proposed 7 Riptide list. IA Riptides suck at AA, and the R'Varna cannot even target a Flyers. That is an Autowin or as close to it in 40k.
Really, a Multi DLord Wraithwing list wouldn't trounce those Riptides? Or Khornedog Rush with the Grimiore.
Don't forget IA gets Hot and at BS3 isn't terribly likely to hit, then its hitting Invuln Saves. If the Rush army goes firt the Riptides get a single Turn, and the are toast.
Tied up in Combat indefinitely is a win. Anyone bringing that many Riptides as terrible scoring potential and will lose. It is not a good or tournament winning build, not in the slightest.
Zagman wrote: Anyone bringing that many Riptides as terrible scoring potential and will lose.
When you think about it, if they have that many riptides, all the troops they have are probably just two minimum FW squads, very easy to take out. Especially with helldrakes .
Mr.Omega wrote: I rarely see Pathfinders, which Tau players claim is the only reason the Riptide even works, ever get used.
This! "Just target the pathfinders and they become next to useless."
If they don't have pathfinders, they will either have other sources of markerlights or other force multipliers in the list. Markerlight drones (generaly paired with either a commander suit or missile pod crisis team), tetras (squishy, but mobile), and skyrays (cost ineffective, but tough and skyfire) are the other common sources of markerlights you will run in to. Other options are the buff commander (very cost ineffective but a pain to kill due to LOS! to the riptide), ECPA (farsight enclave) and divination psykers (generally farseers, but you do see tigi or mantis libis sometimes). A bs3 large blast will hit its target less then half the time without any buffs, it does not ignore cover or invun saves, and there is a 1/6 chance that it does absolutely nothing on top of that due to overheat. Kill the force multipliers, and the army becomes substantially less effective, not just the riptides.
If your list can't remove the force multipliers in a tau list (buff commander excepted), then its going to have problems with other competitively minded lists, especially daemons. The fact that the tau casual and competitive lists share many features is unfortunate for tau players, but beyond choosing not to play against them there is not much that can be done about it.
Mr.Omega wrote: I rarely see Pathfinders, which Tau players claim is the only reason the Riptide even works, ever get used.
This! "Just target the pathfinders and they become next to useless."
If they don't have pathfinders, they will either have other sources of markerlights or other force multipliers in the list. Markerlight drones (generaly paired with either a commander suit or missile pod crisis team), tetras (squishy, but mobile), and skyrays (cost ineffective, but tough and skyfire) are the other common sources of markerlights you will run in to. Other options are the buff commander (very cost ineffective but a pain to kill due to LOS! to the riptide), ECPA (farsight enclave) and divination psykers (generally farseers, but you do see tigi or mantis libis sometimes). A bs3 large blast will hit its target less then half the time without any buffs, it does not ignore cover or invun saves, and there is a 1/6 chance that it does absolutely nothing on top of that due to overheat. Kill the force multipliers, and the army becomes substantially less effective, not just the riptides.
If your list can't remove the force multipliers in a tau list (buff commander excepted), then its going to have problems with other competitively minded lists, especially daemons. The fact that the tau casual and competitive lists share many features is unfortunate for tau players, but beyond choosing not to play against them there is not much that can be done about it.
Exactly, nice summary. I covered all of this in much greater depth in my recent thread "Riptide: My Take". Much of this is painfully obvious to those to play Riptides, or those who are competitive enough to have practiced againt them with sound tactics, for those who play less, bring lists with less potential, or are simply arm chair generals it is much less so.
I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.
You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.
as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.
wowsmash wrote: I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.
You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.
as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.
Well, the biggest stomping my GT Riptide list took was at the hands of SM....
You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.
Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.
Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.
There will always be people who power game or twist the rules, just like there will always be people in magic who have a deck that has turn 1(or 0) win or some Power 9. In a normal game, there is no restrictions on what you are limited to, but as long as both people know what they are getting in to, it is fine.
wowsmash wrote: I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.
You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.
as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.
Well, the biggest stomping my GT Riptide list took was at the hands of SM....
You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.
I have a small space marine army. My collection grows slowly. I will have the same models this week as I did last week. Just becuase my codex has options doesn't mean I'll own all of those options "yet".
If I don't have the model's to deal with your list why bother playing? Unless you want to be more reasonable there doesn't seem to be much point.
Then call me mr Casual. I do not field similar lists one game after another. I am also not willing to pay big bucks to counter some spam list. Luckily I do not have to, either.
I do question your motives of fielding 2+ Riptides. If they are not cost efficient, why do you have them in your list??
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.
Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.
*Hands over a Kleenex*
Every, and I mean every Wargame has balance issues. And the bigger the game, the more factions, the more units, the more rules, the more difficult it becomes to balance. 40k is the biggest I've seen, which means balance issues are inherent.
"Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k." See, here you go against, on your Soap Box believing you know what a game of 40k is. You don't, and it is different for all of us. We all have certain expecations for what kind of a game we want. There are Ultra Casual, Casual, Semi Competitive, Competitive, and Ultra Competitive. "Fluffy" lists can fall just about anywhere on that continuum. "When players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules" See, here you again, knowing everything. Unfortunately, players are fielding things they are allowed to under the Rules, those things which govern how we play. When following them, we are playing 40k, not the biased version you think everyone else should be playing. "assume that the other player is lacking in tactic." Well, there are counters for EVERY list and "broken" combination out there. Every army may not have the answer, but they are out there. The Riptide has many counters, and through the use of Tactics, good list building, and good play can be beaten. You talk as if fielding multiple Riptides is an autowin, this is far far from the case.
Players absolutley have to match expectation. There are some downright bad potential combinations in the multitude of codices out there and some damn good ones. You cannot expect people to freely choose from good and bad choices with inherently imbalanced pools to choose from in an game with complex variables and expect everyone to be playing the same game. I'm not the delusional one here. So, please get off your high horse and accept, like I have, that not all of us are playing the same game. By discussing expectation and desires with your opponent before you play them, you can bring lists which help you both satisfy and fulfill your expectations. I generally play semicompetitive to Ultra Competitive depending on my opponents and venue, maybe you need to find more Casual opponents and avoid those who favor a more competitive game. And if you think you are a competitive player and want to play competitive 40k, then you need to learn to play a much stronger game and take stronger lists or be continually disappointed by your inferior performance. Match expectations with your opponent and both of you will have a more enjoyable game. Because of limited time during the week, I play ~75% of my games of 40k in Tournaments. When given the chance to play outside of tournaments I often choose from the pool of players that are capable of higher level play. I have learned not to play people who want to play on your level because they fail to meet my expectations, and playing on their level leads to a less enjoyable experience and practice that is of limited use. I derive no enjoyment from Baby Seal Clubbing Ultra Casual players, but have no problem bringing lists at the casual level for beginner players or very friendly games if that is what I am after.
Its as simple as communicate and match expectations to maximize enjoyment, who is being unreasonable here? Me or you?
Firstly, you assume every Riptide has the IA, that is not the case. You assume that they have multiple ones. You fail to mention just how many points this costs. You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire. You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering. This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact. You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator. Delusional? Nope, just informed and experienced. Please, limit your assumptions(ASS*U*ME), you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits, and always is equipped a certain way without mentioning the downsides. Yes, the Riptide is a very strong unit, but its not as crazy as you are making it out to be.
Zagman wrote: You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.
Casual players make up the majority of the gamers. And would you tone down your list if you kept tabling your opponent? This is not an arms race.
I have to admit 2 riptides are the most I haver faced but I play sisters and have never lost to Tau this edition!
Between. Scouting melta dominions and multiple exorcists they die! Plus the few wounds they always seem to do to themselves.
wowsmash wrote: I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.
You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.
as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.
Well, the biggest stomping my GT Riptide list took was at the hands of SM....
You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.
I have a small space marine army. My collection grows slowly. I will have the same models this week as I did last week. Just becuase my codex has options doesn't mean I'll own all of those options "yet".
If I don't have the model's to deal with your list why bother playing? Unless you want to be more reasonable there doesn't seem to be much point.
You have options.
Match Expectations with your opponent, as him to bring a toned down list to play at your level.
Play at a known disadvantage and try to make the most of what you have.
Collect a larger army.
Just don't complain about his army if you haven't discussed your game expectations with him. Outright refusing to play without communication is poor sportsmanship. If he refuses to change his list to meet your expectations, then you two are not compatible opponents.
Zagman wrote: You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.
Casual players make up the majority of the gamers. And would you tone down your list if you kept tabling your opponent? This is not an arms race.
I play ~75% of my games in a competitive or tougher setting. Most of my other games are the setting and expectation. If I am playing a new player, or someone who cannot play at that level, I do tone down my lists and play a softer game for mutual enjoyment. A win with two evenly matched players and lists is always the best. I have no need to club baby seals outside of the first game of tournaments.
As to tabling opponents, I have only tabled two opponents in competitive play with my Dualtide/Triptide lists and have yet to be tabled myself. Three times I've been close with my Tau, once versus DE, once versus Daemons, and once versus SM.
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.
Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.
*Hands over a Kleenex*
Every, and I mean every Wargame has balance issues. And the bigger the game, the more factions, the more units, the more rules, the more difficult it becomes to balance. 40k is the biggest I've seen, which means balance issues are inherent.
"Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k." See, here you go against, on your Soap Box believing you know what a game of 40k is. You don't, and it is different for all of us. We all have certain expecations for what kind of a game we want. There are Ultra Casual, Casual, Semi Competitive, Competitive, and Ultra Competitive. "Fluffy" lists can fall just about anywhere on that continuum. "When players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules" See, here you again, knowing everything. Unfortunately, players are fielding things they are allowed to under the Rules, those things which govern how we play. When following them, we are playing 40k, not the biased version you think everyone else should be playing. "assume that the other player is lacking in tactic." Well, there are counters for EVERY list and "broken" combination out there. Every army may not have the answer, but they are out there. The Riptide has many counters, and through the use of Tactics, good list building, and good play can be beaten. You talk as if fielding multiple Riptides is an autowin, this is far far from the case.
Players absolutley have to match expectation. There are some downright bad potential combinations in the multitude of codices out there and some damn good ones. You cannot expect people to freely choose from good and bad choices with inherently imbalanced pools to choose from in an game with complex variables and expect everyone to be playing the same game. I'm not the delusional one here. So, please get off your high horse and accept, like I have, that not all of us are playing the same game. By discussing expectation and desires with your opponent before you play them, you can bring lists which help you both satisfy and fulfill your expectations. I generally play semicompetitive to Ultra Competitive depending on my opponents and venue, maybe you need to find more Casual opponents and avoid those who favor a more competitive game. And if you think you are a competitive player and want to play competitive 40k, then you need to learn to play a much stronger game and take stronger lists or be continually disappointed by your inferior performance. Match expectations with your opponent and both of you will have a more enjoyable game. Because of limited time during the week, I play ~75% of my games of 40k in Tournaments. When given the chance to play outside of tournaments I often choose from the pool of players that are capable of higher level play. I have learned not to play people who want to play on your level because they fail to meet my expectations, and playing on their level leads to a less enjoyable experience and practice that is of limited use. I derive no enjoyment from Baby Seal Clubbing Ultra Casual players, but have no problem bringing lists at the casual level for beginner players or very friendly games if that is what I am after.
Its as simple as communicate and match expectations to maximize enjoyment, who is being unreasonable here? Me or you?
Firstly, you assume every Riptide has the IA, that is not the case. You assume that they have multiple ones. You fail to mention just how many points this costs. You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire. You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering. This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact. You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator. Delusional? Nope, just informed and experienced. Please, limit your assumptions(ASS*U*ME), you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits, and always is equipped a certain way without mentioning the downsides. Yes, the Riptide is a very strong unit, but its not as crazy as you are making it out to be.
Nice. Ad Hominem.
You fail to mention just how many points this costs.
Answer: 3 Fifths of jacks**t.
185 points for a BS3 S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser with infinite range and immunity to being instant killed by most heavy weaponry before you even consider the other features is absolutely drop-dead pants-on-head level stupid.
You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire.
Ah yes, failing to fire the gun once per game completely balances out everything.
You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering
Big deal. Its the sheer amount of firepower it churns out for its asinine cost is the issue here; when it connects you're still boned.
This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact.
You have not supplied ample evidence to make this claim, and to call it fact after such a handwave suggestion is just obnoxious. Its a S8 AP2 pie plate. In no world is that not an effective weapon. Even a BS1 AP2 pie plate auto-hits 33% of the time.
Compared to weapons of other races and the availability of such weapons, it is incredibly valuable; unbelievably so when you consider it effectively has infinite range.
You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator.
Having a TL 18'' Meltagun or TL Plasma Gun is hardly a consolation in the place of SMS.
you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits
The problem is that it does, will and usually hits, I mean have you even heard of Murphy's Law? You cannot afford to ignore it. There is less than a 20% chance of not being able to fire it. There is at least a 40-50% chance of hitting, and that's not factoring in marker lights (but I'm sure you'll just ramble on about how that won't always happen, because that is a completely legitimate train of thought) or Buffmanders, and that with the Riptide's nature as being almost unkillable even low accuracy doesn't really matter because you'll probably get to fire multiple times.
Are there any lists for orks that give them even a miniscule chance of combating cheese tides? I think BW might have a chance to make it to the gunline but not sure, trucks would get gun down way to quick and KKF hordes aren't resilient enough to make it to the enemy. Perhaps full on biker army? And no it's not possible to just simply ignore riptides like many suggest.
@Mr.Omega: nailed it, brace yourself for angry zagman babble
Force them to make saves, think of them as a squad of a squad of Terminators with T6. I swear the number of times I've gotten 3 wounds on a Riptide and they've failed 1 makes them way less intimidating than a lot of people give them credit for.
Also, Riptides aren't amazing. Riptides with a Buffmander.. yes that is a problem, but that's only as tough as the shield drones keeping them afloat, and how do you get rid of them?
Same way you get rid of a Riptide, weight of fire.
You fail to mention just how many points this costs.
Answer: 3 Fifths of jacks**t.
185 points for a BS3 S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser with infinite range and immunity to being instant killed by most heavy weaponry before you even consider the other features is absolutely drop-dead pants-on-head level stupid.
You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire.
Ah yes, failing to fire the gun once per game completely balances out everything.
You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering
Big deal. Its the sheer amount of firepower it churns out for its asinine cost is the issue here; when it connects you're still boned.
This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact.
You have not supplied ample evidence to make this claim, and to call it fact after such a handwave suggestion is just obnoxious. Its a S8 AP2 pie plate. In no world is that not an effective weapon. Even a BS1 AP2 pie plate auto-hits 33% of the time.
Compared to weapons of other races and the availability of such weapons, it is incredibly valuable; unbelievably so when you consider it effectively has infinite range.
You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator.
Having a TL 18'' Meltagun or TL Plasma Gun is hardly a consolation in the place of SMS.
you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits
The problem is that it does, will and usually hits, I mean have you even heard of Murphy's Law? You cannot afford to ignore it. There is less than a 20% chance of not being able to fire it. There is at least a 40-50% chance of hitting, and that's not factoring in marker lights (but I'm sure you'll just ramble on about how that won't always happen, because that is a completely legitimate train of thought) or Buffmanders, and that with the Riptide's nature as being almost unkillable even low accuracy doesn't really matter because you'll probably get to fire multiple times.
Points Cost. A Riptide is usually ~200pts, possibly more. Support elements are much much more as well, but you assert they don't need them, so we'll forgo support elements for now.
Low Damage Output of the IA Riptide. Gets Hot S8 AP2 Large Blast at BS3
17% chance of failing to fire
34% chance to Stick its Target.
48% chance to scatter at least one inch. 40% chance it scatters at least 3". 15% chance it scatters at least 6".
You keep crying about its range and how devastating the Overcharged Ion Accelerator is, well, compare it to the Subpar LRBT. Vs most Targets the LRBT deals ~15% more damage than the Riptide for ~75% the cost which makes it ~150% as effective vs anything that does not have a 2+ save as a long ranged weapon. They have identical range, strength, and the LRBT is more reliable thanks to not Getting Hot and being Ordinance against Vehicles. The IA Riptide is obviously better against 2+ saves, but that is it. Did I mention the LRBT is not considered a good unit nor known for its firepower?
For kicks, we'll assume over the course of a six turn game you get to shoot at prime targets, terminators, and that you don't scatter off ever. Every hit hits 3 Terminators, firing 5 turns is 15 hits, 12.5 Wounds, 8.3 Unsaved Wounds. 332pts in Terminators or a 179% its value assuming a perfect record shooting, because that is entirely realistic. Vs Marines with a massive four hits per Large Blast its 233pts in Marines without cover, 155 with. Under real game conditions its often times much much less. Opponents aren't stupid, you don't get a chance to nuke clustered up high point units very often, and will mitigate the damage accordingly.
For Comparison a Dual Plasma suit in Rapid Fire range would kill 266pt of Terminator per game or 511% of its value, 133pts outside of Rapid Fire Range. 140 pts of marines, 93 with cover etc.
And damn, just wait until its Tyranids and Orks that cost under 10pts each swarming towards the Riptide to tie him up indefinitely and eventually sweep him. Things are about to get a lot worse for the Riptide, the Meta will shift away from Elite armies as Tyranids, IG, and Orks hit by first half of 2014 greatly reducing the viability of high number Riptide builds.
There are a ton of units which can pump out much much more damage per turn. The Riptide does not have a High Damage per turn for its Points, what it does have is high Durability for its cost.
Damn! That looked like math, and logic, I can't possibly have written it, because you know it was a legitimate train of thought.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
earlofburger wrote: Are there any lists for orks that give them even a miniscule chance of combating cheese tides? I think BW might have a chance to make it to the gunline but not sure, trucks would get gun down way to quick and KKF hordes aren't resilient enough to make it to the enemy. Perhaps full on biker army? And no it's not possible to just simply ignore riptides like many suggest.
@Mr.Omega: nailed it, brace yourself for angry zagman babble
Battlewagons are the Orks best answer for Tau in general. Disembark and multicharge for carnage. Not perfect, but for a 4th edition books its the best you've got. Tau struggle with AV14, our only options are DSing Fusion Suits which means less Riptides for non Farsight Enclave lists, or a the single shot LongStrike Hammerhead. Possibly Twin Linked Fusion Blasters on the Riptides, but if you are within 9" of a Riptide, you are already there. Tau have no reliable way of stopping multiple Battle Wagons from breaching their lines. Sprinkle in some Nob Bikers for threat saturation and you are there. Lootas are still great, but watch out for suppored IA Riptides. Use max coherency, cover, and LOS blocking terrain to your advantage. Target support elements first if possible.
And angry babble? I'm just not a fan of people spouting bad internet wisdom as fact.
streamdragon wrote: It's a team effort to have fun, but that apparently doesn't extend to knowingly using multiple highly overpowered/undercosted units?
What the frell am I even reading here?
my opinion. Just as your comment that a unit being overpowered and/or undercosted means your opponent should only field them in limited quantities if at all is one of yours? Isn't it nice how the internet works?
In any case this has devolved a bit from discussing strategy so that is the last of my comments you'll have to decipher
You fail to mention just how many points this costs.
Answer: 3 Fifths of jacks**t.
185 points for a BS3 S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser with infinite range and immunity to being instant killed by most heavy weaponry before you even consider the other features is absolutely drop-dead pants-on-head level stupid.
You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire.
Ah yes, failing to fire the gun once per game completely balances out everything.
You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering
Big deal. Its the sheer amount of firepower it churns out for its asinine cost is the issue here; when it connects you're still boned.
This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact.
You have not supplied ample evidence to make this claim, and to call it fact after such a handwave suggestion is just obnoxious. Its a S8 AP2 pie plate. In no world is that not an effective weapon. Even a BS1 AP2 pie plate auto-hits 33% of the time.
Compared to weapons of other races and the availability of such weapons, it is incredibly valuable; unbelievably so when you consider it effectively has infinite range.
You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator.
Having a TL 18'' Meltagun or TL Plasma Gun is hardly a consolation in the place of SMS.
you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits
The problem is that it does, will and usually hits, I mean have you even heard of Murphy's Law? You cannot afford to ignore it. There is less than a 20% chance of not being able to fire it. There is at least a 40-50% chance of hitting, and that's not factoring in marker lights (but I'm sure you'll just ramble on about how that won't always happen, because that is a completely legitimate train of thought) or Buffmanders, and that with the Riptide's nature as being almost unkillable even low accuracy doesn't really matter because you'll probably get to fire multiple times.
Points Cost. A Riptide is usually ~200pts, possibly more. Support elements are much much more as well, but you assert they don't need them, so we'll forgo support elements for now.
Low Damage Output of the IA Riptide. Gets Hot S8 AP2 Large Blast at BS3
17% chance of failing to fire
34% chance to Stick its Target.
48% chance to scatter at least one inch. 40% chance it scatters at least 3". 15% chance it scatters at least 6".
You keep crying about its range and how devastating the Overcharged Ion Accelerator is, well, compare it to the Subpar LRBT.
The LRBT hasn't been competitive for a long time so this comparison is already pretty redundant
Vs most Targets the LRBT deals ~15% more damage than the Riptide
Unless the Riptide is using what, a TLFB/PR it is a straight upgrade in firepower. Noone with more than two braincells takes sponsons on an LRBT.
for ~75% the cost which makes it ~150% as effective vs anything that does not have a 2+ save as a long ranged weapon.
A) The LRBT is terrible regardless B) For a 25% increase in cost, the Riptide gets:
-Enough defensive quality to almost never be instant killed, as opposed to an LR -Jump move
-Practical immunity to all high strength AP3 which would otherwise possibly be effective against an LR -HB becoming TL and ignores cover, or a TL melta gun so tanks don't bother you, or a TL/PR for even more AP2.
-Massive height, so you rarely have LOS issues.
-Nova Reactor
-5+ Invulnerable
So no, only an idiot would take an LRBT over a Riptide given the choice.
C) You severely understate the importance of keeping AP2. You know half the reason why I don't even take Riptides anymore? Sodding Riptides. A Battlecannon is frigging useless against them.
They have identical range, strength, and the LRBT is more reliable thanks to not Getting Hot and being Ordinance against Vehicles.
I understand that you obviously have so few genuine arguments to draw on, but please quit parading the 17% gets hot chance as being a big deal.
The IA Riptide is obviously better against 2+ saves, but that is it.
It can screw tanks with the melta gun. For 5 points it can get interceptor. Against light vehicles or flyers it can attempt to shoot them down with 3 S7 shots, which isn't terrible, and certainly better than the LRBT.
Did I mention the LRBT is not considered a good unit nor known for its firepower?
So you're admitting this comparison is pointless?
And damn, just wait until its Tyranids and Orks that cost under 10pts each swarming towards the Riptide to tie him up indefinitely and eventually sweep him.
I went to a tournament with 80 Orks a while ago. First game was against a double Riptide list, and this was in a doubles tournament. 15~ Firewarriors and 2 Riptides basically stopped the entire Ork horde dead each turn with weight of casualties in its tracks before any model got within 6'' of his lines, so don't feed me any of that crap.
Melee Hordes are terrible in 6th and have been crappy for some time. Here you're making the classic logical fallacy 'just tie him up in CC!' which almost stimulates aneurysms on me by this point. You cannot rely on tying it up in CC with random charge distance, and it can jump away 6+2D6 a turn. It can happily sit at the back of the board. Ergo tying him in CC is going to be the furthest thing from plausible.
Things are about to get a lot worse for the Riptide, the Meta will shift away from Elite armies as Tyranids, IG, and Orks hit by first half of 2014 greatly reducing the viability of high number Riptide builds.
Pfft. All of this is theoretical.
There are a ton of units which can pump out much much more damage per turn.
How many of those units are almost impossible to kill, have infinite range, interceptor,ignore LOS for most purposes and have the flexibility of AP2? Very, very few, if any.
Damn! That looked like math, and logic, I can't possibly have written it, because you know it was a legitimate train of thought.
Incredibly flawed logic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
earlofburger wrote: Are there any lists for orks that give them even a miniscule chance of combating cheese tides? I think BW might have a chance to make it to the gunline but not sure, trucks would get gun down way to quick and KKF hordes aren't resilient enough to make it to the enemy. Perhaps full on biker army? And no it's not possible to just simply ignore riptides like many suggest.
@Mr.Omega: nailed it, brace yourself for angry zagman babble
And angry babble? I'm just not a fan of people spouting bad internet wisdom as fact.
And I quote:
This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact.
At no point in any of my posts have I claimed my opinion as fact. Yet you have. Dayum.
We were talking about relative damage output, hence why I choose the non competitive LRBT. I did not factor in Sponsons because they were broken with 6th Ed rules until the new IG book hits.
You needlessly dismissed the firepower argument and listed everything but firepower as justification effectively conceding said argument. A short ranged secondary weapon isn't really relevant in a long ranged firepower comparison in relation to your claims for the IA.
I never argued the LRBT was competitive, just that it puts out more long ranged firepower against most targets in 40k, which is fact. A Riptide is also ~33% more expensive than a LRBT, and doesn't fail to fire ~17%.
Maybe you should look up the definition of relative. Relative to the LRBT, a commonly accepted noncompetitive choice, the unsupported IA Riptide has a lower long ranged damage output, which is directly contradicting your previous claims, ~66% the damage output for cost actually. Relative, look it up.
80 Orks is not a melee horde, and Orks are very slow right now. 80 orks at ~2k, it a moronic comparison especially Firewarriors were more likely to be dealing the damage, or you were an idiot and clumped up. Tyranids are faster and better currently. Both are old codices, and both will get better and likely faster with their new books. Speed is a trend is 6th Codices. Also, playing on tables with proper LOS blocking terrain is a must.
Thanks for playing, you have been found lacking. Have a nice day.
Zagman wrote: We were talking about relative damage output, hence why I choose the non competitive LRBT. I did not factor in Sponsons because they were broken with 6th Ed rules until the new IG book hits.
You needlessly dismissed the firepower argument and listed everything but firepower as justification effectively conceding said argument. A short ranged secondary weapon isn't really relevant in a long ranged firepower comparison in relation to your claims for the IA.
I never argued the LRBT was competitive, just that it puts out more long ranged firepower against most targets in 40k, which is fact. A Riptide is also ~33% more expensive than a LRBT, and doesn't fail to fire ~17%.
Maybe you should look up the definition of relative. Relative to the LRBT, a commonly accepted noncompetitive choice, the unsupported IA Riptide has a lower long ranged damage output, which is directly contradicting your previous claims, ~66% the damage output for cost actually. Relative, look it up.
80 Orks is not a melee horde, and Orks are very slow right now. 80 orks at ~2k, it a moronic comparison especially Firewarriors were more likely to be dealing the damage, or you were an idiot and clumped up. Tyranids are faster and better currently. Both are old codices, and both will get better and likely faster with their new books. Speed is a trend is 6th Codices. Also, playing on tables with proper LOS blocking terrain is a must.
Thanks for playing, you have been found lacking. Have a nice day.
Well, I have just had an aneurysm.
The sheer hypocrisy of you telling me I am not considering the entirety of your argument put me in stitches. You have not countered or attempted to debate against any of my points directly in this post. Instead you just reiterate the same 3 weak points.
Instead of attempting to debate, you completely ignore my points on the LRBT comparison on the basis that you presume me to have committed a logical fallacy (which might I remind you is a fallacy in of itself) and feel compelled to insult my intelligence by telling me the meaning of 'relative', when I have EXPLICITLY told you that looking at those two units relatively is a pointless affair.
I never said I fielded 80 Orks at 2k. That game was at 1200, 600 each. We were on a 6x4 board and spread out as far as humanly possible, but Riptides can just remove swathes of Boys at a time and if you do spread out too far you lose an absolutely horrendous amount of ground to each casualty. Case in point, if you have 2'' gaps between 1 and 2nd rank, every time the front is wiped a third of your movement got reverted. This was not hard with no cover; and we could not afford to get in it for we would have been slowed.
I cannot actually be screwed to re-type the same post again against points you have just reiterated without consideration for any of my points.
So yes, if you're actually going to leave the room please take your arrogance with you, because I won't be missing you.
Mr.Omega wrote: looking at those two units relatively is a pointless affair.
Please, enlighten me.
I'm with Zagman on this. It's a very relevant comparison.
The LRBT isn't competitive whereas the basis of this debate revolves around as such, it uses 5th edition pricing, is a vehicle and has qualities for a pie plate dispenser that are very rarely otherwise seen; these being AV14, practically infinite range and the heavy tank quality. Using it to make a blanket statement as a result is somewhat pointless.
Logically, we should not be looking at its firepower in a vacuum and still referring to it by its full cost.
Comparing the Riptide to it proves nothing; its like comparing an actual diamond to a fake plastic diamond. 'But look, you can still fool people into thinking its real!' doesn't make the actual diamond any less significant or change anything; especially when you consider that is not hard to determine whether a diamond is fake or not.
Mr.Omega wrote: looking at those two units relatively is a pointless affair.
Please, enlighten me.
I'm with Zagman on this. It's a very relevant comparison.
The LRBT isn't competitive whereas the basis of this debate revolves around as such, it uses 5th edition pricing, is a vehicle and has qualities for a pie plate dispenser that are very rarely otherwise seen; these being AV14, practically infinite range and the heavy tank quality. Using it to make a blanket statement as a result is somewhat pointless.
Logically, we should not be looking at its firepower in a vacuum and still referring to it by its full cost.
Comparing the Riptide to it proves nothing; its like comparing an actual diamond to a fake plastic diamond. 'But look, you can still fool people into thinking its real!' doesn't make the actual diamond any less significant or change anything; especially when you consider that is not hard to determine whether a diamond is fake or not.
Yes, Zagman KNOWS it isn't competitive, which is kind of the point.
If the LRBT has a low damage output...
And the output of a riptide is comparable (which it is)...
Then the Riptide also has a low damage output...
How is that not relevant?
Whoa, reading this thread makes me think Riptide fielding Tau players are imbecils. Why would they field more than one of those horribad units is beyond my understanding!
For 30 points more you can throw that large blast every turn with practically no chance of a failure...
All this talk of unsupported riptides vs LRBT's. Competitive players don't actually use unsupported riptides.
The NOVA O'vesa star had a buffmander attached that supported 2 riptides. It also had 2 skyrays for multiple t/l markerlights.
The Killadaelphia winning list had 3 skyrays and 3 riptides.
The whole upsupported riptide debate just feels like tau players rationalizing the situation so they don't feel so bad about playing extremely powerful armies. Own what you play. Necron players who brought 6 flyers back in the day didn't try to tell you they weren't good. GK players back in the day didn't tell you their 3 rifle dreads were bad.
Like others have said, before the riptide every MC with a 2+ was assault oriented. This balanced out naturally as when you close for assault, you expose yourself to increasing intensity of fire. Riptides can mitigate that by never needing to close for assault and skirting the typical 24-30" kill zones of most armies.
Giving Tau players the benefit of the doubt, Riptides will be supported and potentially bubble wrapped or blocked with expendable units. The effect is a t6 2+/5++ MC that can survive the entire game. Yes, its damage output may not equal that of missile sides or certain crisis suit builds, but those units are far less likely to be causing damage from turn 1 to turn 6.
If you want/need to kill one, you'll need an effectively delivered assault unit or plenty of ap2 or rending shots.
All this talk of unsupported riptides vs LRBT's. Competitive players don't actually use unsupported riptides.
The NOVA O'vesa star had a buffmander attached that supported 2 riptides. It also had 2 skyrays for multiple t/l markerlights.
The Killadaelphia winning list had 3 skyrays and 3 riptides.
The whole upsupported riptide debate just feels like tau players rationalizing the situation so they don't feel so bad about playing extremely powerful armies. Own what you play. Necron players who brought 6 flyers back in the day didn't try to tell you they weren't good. GK players back in the day didn't tell you their 3 rifle dreads were bad.
Like others have said, before the riptide every MC with a 2+ was assault oriented. This balanced out naturally as when you close for assault, you expose yourself to increasing intensity of fire. Riptides can mitigate that by never needing to close for assault and skirting the typical 24-30" kill zones of most armies.
Giving Tau players the benefit of the doubt, Riptides will be supported and potentially bubble wrapped or blocked with expendable units. The effect is a t6 2+/5++ MC that can survive the entire game. Yes, its damage output may not equal that of missile sides or certain crisis suit builds, but those units are far less likely to be causing damage from turn 1 to turn 6.
If you want/need to kill one, you'll need an effectively delivered assault unit or plenty of ap2 or rending shots.
Just going to point out, at no point was I trying to "rationalise" anything. I'm not even a tau player.
All I did was point out that people are overestimating the damage output of unsupported riptides.
That's what Zagman was showing with the LRBT argument.
All this talk of unsupported riptides vs LRBT's. Competitive players don't actually use unsupported riptides.
The NOVA O'vesa star had a buffmander attached that supported 2 riptides. It also had 2 skyrays for multiple t/l markerlights.
The Killadaelphia winning list had 3 skyrays and 3 riptides.
The whole upsupported riptide debate just feels like tau players rationalizing the situation so they don't feel so bad about playing extremely powerful armies. Own what you play. Necron players who brought 6 flyers back in the day didn't try to tell you they weren't good. GK players back in the day didn't tell you their 3 rifle dreads were bad.
Like others have said, before the riptide every MC with a 2+ was assault oriented. This balanced out naturally as when you close for assault, you expose yourself to increasing intensity of fire. Riptides can mitigate that by never needing to close for assault and skirting the typical 24-30" kill zones of most armies.
Giving Tau players the benefit of the doubt, Riptides will be supported and potentially bubble wrapped or blocked with expendable units. The effect is a t6 2+/5++ MC that can survive the entire game. Yes, its damage output may not equal that of missile sides or certain crisis suit builds, but those units are far less likely to be causing damage from turn 1 to turn 6.
If you want/need to kill one, you'll need an effectively delivered assault unit or plenty of ap2 or rending shots.
Just going to point out, at no point was I trying to "rationalise" anything. I'm not even a tau player.
All I did was point out that people are overestimating the damage output of unsupported riptides.
That's what Zagman was showing with the LRBT argument.
Which is fine. I'm just saying the odds of seeing an unsupported riptide are the same as spotting bigfoot or the loch ness monster.
Jamo wrote: Has anyone had luck with grav bikers against a riptide yet?
A squad of bikers with 2 grav and a comb-grav sarge does OK against them, if you have a bit of cover or first turn. 9 shots with a 30" threat range, 6 hits, 5 wounds, and 3.3 wounds on average unless it nova reactors to get the 3++ save. Last game I fought one I used a set of grav bikers and a drop pod 5 man sternguard squad with 3 combi-meltas and took down a riptide turn one. Of course it's buddy then wiped out the bikers, but them's the breaks.
earlofburger wrote: Tell your opponent that you concede, than follow up with a firm handshake , any game with 2 or more riptides is a game not worth any respectable person's time.
I would at least play a few games against every player, however as I play casually, I will not get repeatedly beat upon by a power gamer using a tourney list against marines. I believe Riptides, unsupported or not can deal a huge amount of damage against Codex Marines that aren't on bikes. Just my opinion.
E1han03 wrote: How do you kill the thing! This thing is one of the toughest things in the game and would really like some advise on how to kill it thanks.
SWRP with JotWW in drop pod, rinse, repeat as needed.
Unless you have jaws, trying to kill a riptide is mostly a waste of time. Most people don't have the firepower to deal with 5 wounds on a 2+/5+ monstrous creature. Kill the support first. Skyrays/pathfinders are really target priority #1. As people have pointed out, riptides shoot like an overpriced LRBT without support. However, with markerlights, the riptide rips apart entire units. No cover and BS 5 changes everything. So kill the markerlights that you can first.
Other than that...yeah, there's a reason why Tau/Eldar are dominant right now. It's pretty obvious that monstrous creatures with ranged firepower are good.
scuddman wrote: Unless you have jaws, trying to kill a riptide is mostly a waste of time. Most people don't have the firepower to deal with 5 wounds on a 2+/5+ monstrous creature. Kill the support first. Skyrays/pathfinders are really target priority #1. As people have pointed out, riptides shoot like an overpriced LRBT without support. However, with markerlights, the riptide rips apart entire units. No cover and BS 5 changes everything. So kill the markerlights that you can first.
Other than that...yeah, there's a reason why Tau/Eldar are dominant right now. It's pretty obvious that monstrous creatures with ranged firepower are good.
Lascannons can do the trick. Honestly, melee may be the best way to kill a Riptide. There are plenty of CC units that can either do enough attacks to kill it off in a turn or two or have enough AP2 (like hammernators) to wreck its face.
Eldar Vypers with Starcannons can take it out. The Eldar are almost a hard counter to Riptides. Then again, so are Lascannons.
scuddman wrote: Unless you have jaws, trying to kill a riptide is mostly a waste of time. Most people don't have the firepower to deal with 5 wounds on a 2+/5+ monstrous creature. Kill the support first. Skyrays/pathfinders are really target priority #1. As people have pointed out, riptides shoot like an overpriced LRBT without support. However, with markerlights, the riptide rips apart entire units. No cover and BS 5 changes everything. So kill the markerlights that you can first.
Other than that...yeah, there's a reason why Tau/Eldar are dominant right now. It's pretty obvious that monstrous creatures with ranged firepower are good.
Lascannons can do the trick. Honestly, melee may be the best way to kill a Riptide. There are plenty of CC units that can either do enough attacks to kill it off in a turn or two or have enough AP2 (like hammernators) to wreck its face.
Eldar Vypers with Starcannons can take it out. The Eldar are almost a hard counter to Riptides. Then again, so are Lascannons.
It takes 14 BS4 Lascannons to average killing a Riptide without FNP or the 3++ buff active.
Other stats:
TL BS3: 12 shots
TL BS4: 10 shots
BS3: 18 shots
So that's pretty much two turns spending your entire or most of your solid shot firepower reserves which you had to base your entire list around to have a decent chance to kill a single Riptide, in an ideal world where you lose no men each turn. You can't count on CC because it can move and jump, doesn't need to get close to be effective, can interceptor CC units coming in from reserves and you have to get the charge distance down.
For the Imperium the premier way of killing them is going to be plasma/grav because you can take them quite easily in high quantities.
scuddman wrote: Unless you have jaws, trying to kill a riptide is mostly a waste of time. Most people don't have the firepower to deal with 5 wounds on a 2+/5+ monstrous creature. Kill the support first. Skyrays/pathfinders are really target priority #1. As people have pointed out, riptides shoot like an overpriced LRBT without support. However, with markerlights, the riptide rips apart entire units. No cover and BS 5 changes everything. So kill the markerlights that you can first.
Other than that...yeah, there's a reason why Tau/Eldar are dominant right now. It's pretty obvious that monstrous creatures with ranged firepower are good.
Lascannons can do the trick. Honestly, melee may be the best way to kill a Riptide. There are plenty of CC units that can either do enough attacks to kill it off in a turn or two or have enough AP2 (like hammernators) to wreck its face.
Eldar Vypers with Starcannons can take it out. The Eldar are almost a hard counter to Riptides. Then again, so are Lascannons.
It takes 14 BS4 Lascannons to average killing a Riptide without FNP or the 3++ buff active.
Other stats:
TL BS3: 12 shots
TL BS4: 10 shots
BS3: 18 shots
So that's pretty much two turns spending your entire or most of your solid shot firepower reserves which you had to base your entire list around to have a decent chance to kill a single Riptide, in an ideal world where you lose no men each turn. You can't count on CC because it can move and jump, doesn't need to get close to be effective, can interceptor CC units coming in from reserves and you have to get the charge distance down.
For the Imperium the premier way of killing them is going to be plasma/grav because you can take them quite easily in high quantities.
True. Also, a WK with HWCs can take out a Riptide, but that's not really reliable.
. Curse him with Misfortune and shoot to death.
Live and learn I guess...
