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disdamn wrote:
I played Tau for the first time a couple of weeks ago and faced a riptide. It 3 turns of fire from my necron warriors, immortals, Crypteks, and GA (only losing 1 wound in the process) before I assaulted with 5 scarab bases plus a Overlord on CCB with Warscythe and mindshackle scarabs. It went down after two turns.

He was taking 20 attacks/turn just from the scarabs. It doesn't matter how strong it is, it just couldn't keep up from the sheer number of assault attacks. After seeing how ineffective ranged attacks were, close combat assaults are going to be my go-to tactic for a riptide from here on out.

Why did you bother shooting it? You could just assault it with the Scarabls or wait until the DLord caught it.

disdamn wrote:
I played Tau for the first time a couple of weeks ago and faced a riptide. It 3 turns of fire from my necron warriors, immortals, Crypteks, and GA (only losing 1 wound in the process) before I assaulted with 5 scarab bases plus a Overlord on CCB with Warscythe and mindshackle scarabs. It went down after two turns.

He was taking 20 attacks/turn just from the scarabs. It doesn't matter how strong it is, it just couldn't keep up from the sheer number of assault attacks. After seeing how ineffective ranged attacks were, close combat assaults are going to be my go-to tactic for a riptide from here on out.

I can't help but ask if the Riptide ever failed a wound versus the Scarabs and thus lost its armor save due to entropic strike because that just makes me laugh a little bit.

I did take 1 wound from the scarabs and the final were done from the overlord.

I completely forgot about the ES rule stripping armour. Didn't matter too much with the overlord and warcythe anyway, but I wish I had remembered that at the time because that would have been funny.

Zagman, if it's the only thing in range to shoot, why not shoot it? And it does take a couple of turns for scarabs and CCB to catch a moving target across the board. It's not like I can assault on turn 1.

Do sniper Scouts work well? En masse, wounding on 4+ and rending on a 6 and possibly even pinning it, surely you can force a lot of saves? (I have not started 6th Ed yet so I'm unfamiliar with current rules).

I have two units, one 5 man unit (4 snipers and a missile launcher) and a 7 man unit (Sgt Telion, 5 snipers and a missile launcher or heavy bolter).

Grav Centurions w/ Missile launchers

Termagants. Dozens of them.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Do sniper Scouts work well? En masse, wounding on 4+ and rending on a 6 and possibly even pinning it, surely you can force a lot of saves? (I have not started 6th Ed yet so I'm unfamiliar with current rules).

I have two units, one 5 man unit (4 snipers and a missile launcher) and a 7 man unit (Sgt Telion, 5 snipers and a missile launcher or heavy bolter).

No, Snipers are terrible against Riptides when you work the averages, even more so when you factor in points efficiency. Scouts are even crappier at it when you consider they're only BS3.

Grav Centurions would work fine, but they only function if you actually get close to the enemy, which is easier said than done.

Vindicare Assassin. Shieldbreaker to get rid of the Invuln (I think a Battlesuit is considered 'wargear'), then just try and Rend it to Death wth Psycannons.

Failing that, Daemonhammer then Force.

There are two sources of Invulnerable Save on the Riptide and both are listed seperately from the battle suit. First is the full time 5++ from the Riptide Shield Generator. Second is the Nova Reactor's Nova Shield 3++.

The Riptide Shield Generator is listed as a Wargear and thus vulnerable to the Vindicare.

The Nova Reactor is listed as a Special Rule and thus not vulnerable to the Vindicare.

BunnyCommando wrote:
Vindicare Assassin. Shieldbreaker to get rid of the Invuln (I think a Battlesuit is considered 'wargear'), then just try and Rend it to Death wth Psycannons.

Failing that, Daemonhammer then Force.

Two marker lights to remove cover and a single pie plate removes the vindicare also.

I usually remove Vindicares with pulse rifle fire or smart missile systems. No point wasting the big guns.

Yeah, vindicare are definitely vulnerable to normal weight of fire, something tau have no difficulty fielding. They are nice as a distraction to draw fire away from your more important units, but I would not count on them in the pinch.

The approach I prefer to take to riptide hunting is a 'whole army' tactic. Modrak bomb, Dreadknights (with teleporters and incinerators), and Interceptors. Put so many units right in the midst of the tau gun line that one of them can charge it/them the following turn. (and shoot the heck out of prime targets that first turn) Activate force weapon, then *poof* no more big guns.

I wipe them out with masses plasma guns combined with a single wound from failing their armor or overheating rolls. Otherwise, I can just ignore them and wipe out the rest of their army. You can bet I'm not gonna waste a manticore shot on it unless it's surrounded by vehicles or infantry.

 Neorealist wrote:
Yeah, vindicare are definitely vulnerable to normal weight of fire, something tau have no difficulty fielding. They are nice as a distraction to draw fire away from your more important units, but I would not count on them in the pinch.

The approach I prefer to take to riptide hunting is a 'whole army' tactic. Modrak bomb, Dreadknights (with teleporters and incinerators), and Interceptors. Put so many units right in the midst of the tau gun line that one of them can charge it/them the following turn. (and shoot the heck out of prime targets that first turn) Activate force weapon, then *poof* no more big guns.

I'm wondering how this would work against an army fielding multiple Riptides, like the 5-Tide Farsight list, or an army using 4 Riptides and 3 R'varnas (3 Riptides, 3 R'varnas, and an allied Riptide).

Nilok 560494 wrote:I'm wondering how this would work against an army fielding multiple Riptides, like the 5-Tide Farsight list, or an army using 4 Riptides and 3 R'varnas (3 Riptides, 3 R'varnas, and an allied Riptide).

Good question. If I can get them tied up in CC I suspect that it'd be a cake walk? That is a 'lot' of points tied up in very few models. That said, I haven't played against that specific type of list yet so it's just conjecture. I'd suspect such a list would also have trouble with many of the (non-heavy support counting as scoring) objective-based missions.

 Neorealist wrote:
Good question. If I can get them tied up in CC I suspect that it'd be a cake walk? That is a 'lot' of points tied up in very few models. That said, I haven't played against that specific type of list yet so it's just conjecture. I'd suspect such a list would also have trouble with many of the (non-heavy support counting as scoring) objective-based missions.

I suspect the Riptides would be the easiest to tied up. The R'varnas have a lot of CC protections from flack with it's Flechette Dischargers and 6" from base S2 Armorbane effect. I think would would need a heavy CC infantry to keep it tied up.
If it can use the 6" blast effect at the start of the movement phase to get out of base contact, I think i can move freely and shoot.

 Nilok wrote:
I suspect the Riptides would be the easiest to tied up. The R'varnas have a lot of CC protections from flack with it's Flechette Dischargers and 6" from base S2 Armorbane effect. I think would would need a heavy CC infantry to keep it tied up.
If it can use the 6" blast effect at the start of the movement phase to get out of base contact, I think i can move freely and shoot.

Fortunately the Grey knight codex is 'full' of units that are beasts in CC.

Heck, I'd go so far as to say practically 'everything' in the codex is apart from some of the vehicles and a few of the squishier henchmen types. Force/Power weapons on everything generally means owning the assault phase, the problem usually is surviving to get there in the first place with expensive models (with attendant low model count) and few long-ranged shooting options.

The teleporter rush goes a long way to fixing that, essentially giving your opponent exactly one round of benefiting from their superior shooting before they get assaulted.

WTH do I do as IG against them?

Well, I just had a 3 match slugfest with a Tau suit army and it took a lot to bring him down. When the RT nova charges things can get ugly. All the suit systems are pretty nuts too. If you see one with drones, don`t even bother. You`ll rack up a ton of wounds, the drones will take most of them and if you`re lucky maybe one wound gets through to the RT. I have successfully taken out RTs in close combat, but keep in mind that he is a MC and thus has ap2 on his melee attacks. You can however negate a RT pretty easily just by throwing a blob into CC with him. The real trick is getting into range to charge. And then pray your foe doesn't get lucky with the bucketloads of overwatch that are inevitably coming your way. Lots of people will say Dirge Casters for that if you`re using chaos, but unless you've got one on a LR it probably won`t get close enough to matter. You can shoot down a RT too, but it takes dedicated firepower and you really have to be careful not to forget about the rest of the Tau army.

That being said, nice 2+ armour save. Make it 50 more times.

What was the rest of the Tau army doing to you while you focused all that firepower on the Riptide?

Tell your opponent that you concede, than follow up with a firm handshake , any game with 2 or more riptides is a game not worth any respectable person's time.

 earlofburger wrote:
Tell your opponent that you concede, than follow up with a firm handshake , any game with 2 or more riptides is a game not worth any respectable person's time.

Just like games with two or three or four or five or six or seven or eight Wave Serpents? Or two or Three Helldrakes? Or two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Vendettas? Or Wraiths, or Night Scythes, or FMCs, or Khorne Hounds, or Screamers, or the Doom, or lions or tigers or bears oh my.

Quit whining and act like an adult. Its a legal Army list and FOC selection. Get off your high horse, many different people play this game for many different reasons. You may find taking two or three Riptides "Cheesy" or "Beardy" or OTT, etc. I don't really care what you think, they are a part of the game and people have just as much right to take them as any other legal selection. If you want to play casual and fluffy, do so, but leave your judgement and closed minded prejudice out of other people's game.

The question is how do you kill them. They have relatively low damage output if they are not supported, and that support is expensive as well. They are a tool, and certainly not the creme de la creme of 40k. With Bugs, IG, and Orks on the horizon we are going to see the Riptide be effectively countered.



For IG, you have quite a few options. IF you are mechanized they aren't doing terrible amounts of damage to you. IAs may attempt to NOVA charge and if so can be effective, but aren't great AT even vs Chimeras. HBCs aren't great AT either. Now, with the proper support they can be pretty effective an any of those roles. Usually support elements are the weak link but if you must kill the Riptide your best solutions are Vendettas, Chimeltavets, Chimplasmavets, and dakka. The rest of the Tau army will struggle against stock LRBTs as Front AV14 is a weakness of most Tau lists. Guard can still put down enough firepower to severely hurt Tau at a greater range. Ignore the Riptides for the 1st Turn or two until your elements which excel at killing them come into play and range. The Riptides won't be killing enough fast enough. Worst case scenario, it takes 72 BS3 Lasgun shots to punch a wound through a Riptide without orders or support. If its your style, huge blobs will beat and sweep sweep Riptides in combat, ally marines for some grav and ATKNF if need be. If the opportunity arises, lock it in combat, even guardsman can sweep a Riptide, they are the worse MCs in combat. Being an MC is almost a trap for Combat.

To a degree i agree. They are a legal army selection.

Here's where i disagree.

No-one has the right to force you to play them if it will be 0 fun for you to do so.

In a tournament, you enter in the understanding that some matchups will not be fun.

For a casual game, why should you throw a couple of hours away on agame that only your opponent will enjoy?

Personally i don't mind fighting slightly cheesy lists. VERY cheesy is another thing entirely.

2 riptides. Ok, 3 is a bit beardy, but if i'm aware that he's going power-player i will up my list.

3 vendettas. Ok. 9 vendettas. I probably won't play you.

etc.

 Ascalam wrote:
To a degree i agree. They are a legal army selection.

Here's where i disagree.

No-one has the right to force you to play them if it will be 0 fun for you to do so.

In a tournament, you enter in the understanding that some matchups will not be fun.

For a casual game, why should you throw a couple of hours away on agame that only your opponent will enjoy?

Personally i don't mind fighting slightly cheesy lists. VERY cheesy is another thing entirely.

2 riptides. Ok, 3 is a bit beardy, but if i'm aware that he's going power-player i will up my list.

3 vendettas. Ok. 9 vendettas. I probably won't play you.

etc.

That may be true, however, I doubt someone would throw that at you without warning (unless you have a savage FLG), simply because it is fairly nuts. Yes, in a tournament, you should expect crazy stuff, but in a friendly game, you usually know the people you are playing against and see them every week or so.

If you would take up someone who has been wanting to play multiple riptides for their fluffy Gundam style army, how would you counter it?

Personally I would love to play my crazy 4 Riptide, 3 R'varna list idea at some point, but I would never just show up without warning.

If someone wanted to set up for a multi-riptide Gundam style army the only appropriate answer would be to run a Gundam army of your own to match it.

If the guy would lend me 7 riptides, so that he could run his 7, i'd be cool with it. That would be fair, and i would know from the beginning what i would be getting into. Hell, i'd love to do a riptide spam on riptide spam epic brawl, even though i don't play tau.

Popping a 7 riptide list in someone after they agree to play you and you set up a table, but before lists are exchanged, on the other hand...

If people then get vexed because you see the Gundam list from hell when you brought a list that has no earthly way of killing it, and refuse to play it, then they might be being a tad unreasonable. They know what their list is. They know some armies simply cannot do a thing to them without using the whole army on one of them.

Riptides are killable. Massive firepower or CC seem to work well. The few i've killed have all died to CC or the whole army shooting one of them down at a time.

My FLGS is a bit of a mix. The regulars are great, but you also have folk coming through en route to other stores who like to bring cheesefest lists, and spring them like a trap card.

You're playing Orks? Cool! Here's my 7 riptides!

You're playing DE? What list do i have that will own them hard?

etc..

These days i rarely play pickup games, as they always end up that way. Arranging fights with the regulars is a whole lot more fun, with far less cheese.

I love how people talk as if three Riptides are an autowin. That is not the case. If you look at across the board and see three Riptides and you pack up and refuse to play, you are a poor sport and I'd be glad never to play you.

I will agree a 7 Riptides list would be nuts, but guess what, its not a good list. Any Fast assault army, especially with first turn will effectively autowin. Any FMC army, will effectively auto Win.

If people think three Riptides is an autowin for their opponent they need to put on their big boy pants and become better players or fine tune their list or just toughen up. Otherwise, make sure your opponent is playing strictly casual... and then you shouldn't even care cause you aren't playing to win.

It comes down to communication, make sure you and you opponent are playing the same game and alot of people's problems disappear. If you want to play weak or fluffy lists ultra casual, make sure your opponent is on board. But, don't bring a weak or fluffly list and agree to play a competitive player and then blame them for your lack of enjoyment, that is on you.

Just like games with two or three or four or five or six or seven or eight Wave Serpents? Or two or Three Helldrakes? Or two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Vendettas? Or Wraiths, or Night Scythes, or FMCs, or Khorne Hounds, or Screamers, or the Doom, or lions or tigers or bears oh my.

Looks like I struck a nerve, how many riptides do you run? 4? 5? Also I find it funny that you mentioned all these power builds and not one is for my army, if orks even have one. Serpent spam and heldrakes are terrible cheese and this goes without saying but it's pointless to bring them up.

Quit whining and act like an adult. Its a legal Army list and FOC selection. Get off your high horse, many different people play this game for many different reasons. You may find taking two or three Riptides "Cheesy" or "Beardy" or OTT, etc. I don't really care what you think, they are a part of the game and people have just as much right to take them as any other legal selection. If you want to play casual and fluffy, do so, but leave your judgement and closed minded prejudice out of other people's game.

Do seriously want me to believe that people run riptides for fluff? People run riptides because they want to win, it's that simple. And it's true many people play this game for many different reasons, but anyone who is running more than 2 or 3 of the abominable riptide is a power gaming cheese master.

The question is how do you kill them. They have relatively low damage output if they are not supported, and that support is expensive as well. They are a tool, and certainly not the creme de la creme of 40k. With Bugs, IG, and Orks on the horizon we are going to see the Riptide be effectively countered.

Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.

 earlofburger wrote:
Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.

No - he's right. Unsupported (ie, without marker lights or a buffmander) they aren't that impressive damage wise.

What I want to know is would people field Riptides if they were walkers, AV12 front/side vehicles with 3HP? Failed Nova caused a glancing hit etc..

Nope, because they would go down faster than a drunken prom date.

Multi-riptide isn't unbeatable. That's not my issue.

It's just terribly boring/unfun to play against. Especially when you add in the inevitable Tau gunline. Gunline armies are pretty fething tedious to play also. Beatable? Sure! Enjoyable game, not as a rule, though i've had a few fun games vs a gunline army.