Situation -

A unit fails morale after shooting and is on the 3rd level of a ruin. The unit is 8 inches away from the table edge (horizontal distance) and rolls 10 inches for its fall back move.

Question -

Does the unit subtract 3" for each level it must climb down, then move back 4" and stay on the table, or does it fall back 10 inches straight, ignoring the "climb down 3" per level" as the fall back rules state you ignore difficult terrain and end up off the table?

Thanks!

Moving down is not difficult terrain so you'd have to pay the 3"

You are not allowed to have your infantry models fly straight back, you have to climb down before you go laterally.

This is backed by the terrain and movement rules that tell us that models are allowed to move through terrain. There is no permission to move through something that is not terrain (Like air) without specific exception.

Gotcha. I thought the height of the terrain was part of it being difficult, seems like that is not the case.

rigeld2 wrote:
Moving down is not difficult terrain so you'd have to pay the 3"

This is incorrect. Moving up or down in a ruin is difficult terrain, however that is ignored for the fall back move rule so pay 3".

Right answer, wrong reasoning.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Moving down is not difficult terrain so you'd have to pay the 3"

This is incorrect. Moving up or down in a ruin is difficult terrain, however that is ignored for the fall back move rule so pay 3".

Right answer, wrong reasoning.

Page 98 does not say that moving up or down is difficult terrain. It says that Ruins are. My statement was correct.

Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

Well, hold on now. If ruins are considered difficult terrain, why would you need to go down 3" when falling back through ruins?

Page 30 says "Most units fall back 2d6". Fall Back moves are not slowed by difficult terrain, but incur dangerous terrain tests as normal."

If they aren't slowed by difficult terrain, wouldn't they just go straight back? That was how I had always thought it worked.

 RobPro wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

Well, hold on now. If ruins are considered difficult terrain, why would you need to go down 3" when falling back through ruins?

Page 30 says "Most units fall back 2d6". Fall Back moves are not slowed by difficult terrain, but incur dangerous terrain tests as normal."

If they aren't slowed by difficult terrain, wouldn't they just go straight back? That was how I had always thought it worked.

They move straight back toward the table edge, but once they reach the limit of that floor of the ruin then need to descend to move further towards the table edge.

If there is no more ruin for them to move toward the table edge, they must descend.

But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Because they ignore difficult terrain. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs are not.

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Difficult terrain just forces you to roll for random movement distance. Whether or not you are rolling for random movement, the distance you are moving from floor to floor is still 3".

The vertical distance is not an artefact of difficult terrain any more than the horizontal distance through the terrain is.

Aren't you simply forced to jump down as that is moving towards your board edge by the shortest possible route? Pg99

there is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

as for falling back between levels you stil must cover the ground between the levels to reach the bottom, as stated your only ignoring the usual movement penalties of taking a terrain test, your not entitled to ignore the movement between the floors.

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

 FlingitNow wrote:

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

That's not what it says. If you are not falling back you may elect to leap down. That does not equate to "If you are falling back you MUST leap down".

Also, Fallback states the unit is not slowed by difficult terrain (but still takes dangerous terrain tests), not that it ignores it completely.
The shortest route from point a to point b if you're on (for example) the third level of a ruin would be straight down (6"), then straight back to point b from there, and not being slowed by difficult terrain (no restriction to that fallback distance).

Rorschach9 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

That's not what it says. If you are not falling back you may elect to leap down. That does not equate to "If you are falling back you MUST leap down".

If anything; from that wording, I'd say that if you are falling back.. you can't leap down.

i.e. IF you are NOT falling you back, you may. So if you ARE then you may not.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

That's not what it says. If you are not falling back you may elect to leap down. That does not equate to "If you are falling back you MUST leap down".

Also, Fallback states the unit is not slowed by difficult terrain (but still takes dangerous terrain tests), not that it ignores it completely.
The shortest route from point a to point b if you're on (for example) the third level of a ruin would be straight down (6"), then straight back to point b from there, and not being slowed by difficult terrain (no restriction to that fallback distance).

If you are not falling back you may choose means you can choose if you are not falling back and says nothing about falling back units.

Can falling back units keep down at all? Yes see the first sentence in that paragraph where jumping down is opened to all models (thus including falling back units) non-falling back units can elect to jump down to skip the difficult terrain test.

Models falling back are forced to take the quickest route thus being forced to jump down.

Whilst your reasoning isn't flawed, I don't feel that they MUST jump.

It's a) not clear from the ruins and b) surely not what GW intend.

The FAQ offers no help either.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Models falling back are forced to take the quickest route thus being forced to jump down.

Whether the models move down level by level or jump, the distance is the same. There is no requirement for Falling Back models to jump. It's an option for units that are not falling back.

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Models falling back are forced to take the quickest route thus being forced to jump down.

Whether the models move down level by level or jump, the distance is the same. There is no requirement for Falling Back models to jump. It's an option for units that are not falling back.

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

 insaniak wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Difficult terrain just forces you to roll for random movement distance. Whether or not you are rolling for random movement, the distance you are moving from floor to floor is still 3".

The vertical distance is not an artefact of difficult terrain any more than the horizontal distance through the terrain is.

Where does the rulebook specify that vertical distance is different? Are there instances where you need to move up or down a level and pay 3" without it being difficult? If it is something that only matters in difficult terrain, why wouldn't you ignore it if you're ignoring difficult terrain?

The height of the ruin is inconsequential the rules to move from floor to floor stops you on the floor your models are on if you full move does not allow you fully to complete the move to the next level

Example - A two story ruin with 3" between floors:
your fallback roll lets you moving 5" you can move 3" down to the next level but will not be able to move to the ground floor as that would be 1" further than the maximun distance you can move.

There is no mention of leaping down as part of your fallback move in the rui s section only the buildings section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg99 - if the distance between levels in a ruin is not 3", simply measure the distance between the levels to determine how much movement a model requires to move up or down between them.

Little rule book first few lines of page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just because the terrain is hard to get across doesnt mean it isn't there.

 RobPro wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Difficult terrain just forces you to roll for random movement distance. Whether or not you are rolling for random movement, the distance you are moving from floor to floor is still 3".

The vertical distance is not an artefact of difficult terrain any more than the horizontal distance through the terrain is.

Where does the rulebook specify that vertical distance is different? Are there instances where you need to move up or down a level and pay 3" without it being difficult? If it is something that only matters in difficult terrain, why wouldn't you ignore it if you're ignoring difficult terrain?

Fall back does not "ignore difficult terrain"; Fall back states your models are not slowed by difficult terrain. There's a big difference there.
You do not get to ignore the vertical movement entirely, just the difficult terrain effect of it.

 RobPro wrote:
Where does the rulebook specify that vertical distance is different?

It doesn't... which is the point. If you move 3", then you moved 3". Whether that was horizontally or vertically makes no difference to the total distance you have moved.

The only difference being difficult terrain makes is that you determine how far you can move with a dice roll. The 3" between levels is nothing to do with it being difficult terrain... it's because there are 3" between levels.

Are there instances where you need to move up or down a level and pay 3" without it being difficult?

Falling Back comes mind...

You're not 'paying' 3", any more than you are 'paying' 3" when you move 3" horizontally. It's costing you 3" of movement when you move vertically because you moved 3".

rigeld2 wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Because they ignore difficult terrain. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs are not.

Ruins are difficult terrain. Vertical movement requires a test just like horizontal. I assume you have a page number for the "Stairs Rule" ?

I don't think anyone is saying you don't measure down first then towards the board edge. I think we have moved onto falling back through difficult terrain which is ignored when falling back. I hope we all agree on this.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Because they ignore difficult terrain. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs are not.

Ruins are difficult terrain. Vertical movement requires a test just like horizontal. I assume you have a page number for the "Stairs Rule" ?

You cited it. Perhaps you missed it. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs aren't.

Page and graph for your stair rules then please.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

Pg 98 clearly disagrees, unless you can cite a page for your stairs rule.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

Pg 98 clearly disagrees, unless you can cite a page for your stairs rule.

... Really? What rule on page 98 says that vertical movement is difficult terrain?
Please quote it here.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

The rules clearly state under what situation you can move vertically in a ruin PG98 big book. Otherwise your models can only move horizontally. Stairs, ladders, ropes, lift etc are theoretical and don't physically need to exist to be able to move vertically. As long as you end your move on a suitable piece of terrain and do not exceed your maximum movement its all good....

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

Pg 98 clearly disagrees, unless you can cite a page for your stairs rule.

... Really? What rule on page 98 says that vertical movement is difficult terrain?
Please quote it here.

Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3 " of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult rerrain, this means that if a I or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any verrical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level)

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

Movement can not be terrain so direction of the movement has no bearing on this. The piece of terrain the movement is happening on or in is difficult terrain so vertical or horizontal if its happening on or in the terrain its considered difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also conseed that vertical movement without a ruin or sanctioned building is very dangerous and should not be attempted by anyone other than a stormboy

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3 " of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult rerrain, this means that if a I or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any verrical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level)

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

Yes, moving through the ruin is moving through difficult terrain.

But if you ignore movement penalties for moving through difficult terrain, you still measure the actual distance moved... you just don't determine how far you can move with a random roll.

I think we have moved away a little from the fallback side of things insainiak is right to bring it back on topic. Difficult or dangerous does not apply when falling back so in fact if you rolled 2 d6 for your fallback move and got ten, the levels where 3" per level you can move vertically down 6" and across 4" regardless of the difficult or dangerous terrain rules.

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3 " of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult rerrain, this means that if a I or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any verrical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level)

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

Yes, moving through the ruin is moving through difficult terrain.

But if you ignore movement penalties for moving through difficult terrain, you still measure the actual distance moved... you just don't determine how far you can move with a random roll.

That doesnt apply to what me and Rigeld are arguing.

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

That's not true. Since the rules say Ruins are difficult terrain, to move within them you must roll.
My only statement is that moving up and down does not per se require a difficult terrain test. It only does if you're in difficult terrain.

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

So... You agree with me?

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

That's not true. Since the rules say Ruins are difficult terrain, to move within them you must roll.
My only statement is that moving up and down does not per se require a difficult terrain test. It only does if you're in difficult terrain.

And you were, which invalidated your statement.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

That's not true. Since the rules say Ruins are difficult terrain, to move within them you must roll.
My only statement is that moving up and down does not per se require a difficult terrain test. It only does if you're in difficult terrain.

And you were, which invalidated your statement.

Not when falling back.
Hooray rules and context

ROFL, it never stops being difficult terrain, it is just ignored. But this has reached its end.

Say a unit is already at the edge of the ruin and is on level 3 and must fall back 5 inches. Does this mean they are trapped and removed as they descend one level (-3") and the remaining 2 inches of their fall back is not enough to reach the lowest level, but they are required to move the full distance? They cannot move closer horizontally to the board edge because they are already at the limit of the ruin.

They don't fulfill the requirements for Trapped! so aren't destroyed.

They are not removed they just stop on the second level

Buildings are not difficult terrain. If a model leaps down from the battlements it is not going to make a difficult terrain test. If I model climbs a ladder on the side of a building to get to the battlements it is not in difficult terrain and does not take any difficult terrain tests. Vertical movement does not equate to difficult terrain. Only vertical movement in a ruin does, and that is because you are in a ruin. The level change only costs 3" of movement in a ruin as well. Not because it is difficult terrain but because it is in a ruin. RAW A model could ascend to the top of a 9" building after moving 5" towards the ladder because the building is not a ruin.

When falling back you get to ignore being in difficult terrain, you don't get to ignore being in a ruin.

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

No, as you are not allowed to move 6 inches.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

No, as you are not allowed to move 6 inches.

So again if I elect to jump off an 8" ruin with my normal move do I stop 2" from the ground? Hovering in midair? Or can I indeed move further than my allotted movement when jumping down?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down?

As I read it, units that are falling back don't have the option to jump down.

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down?

As I read it, units that are falling back don't have the option to jump down.

They don't have the ability to elect to do it to avoid a DT test. "If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin...., the models can always jump down". So we know all models can jump down even if falling back only falling back models can't elect to do it rather than take a DT test, which makes perfect sense as falling back models never take DT tests.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

No, as you are not allowed to move 6 inches.

So again if I elect to jump off an 8" ruin with my normal move do I stop 2" from the ground? Hovering in midair? Or can I indeed move further than my allotted movement when jumping down?

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

I am posting because this is the most ridiculous contradiction ever, vertical stands for up and down, it does not mean just up. If you move up or down in a ruin it's difficult terrain that's why in your own quote it says on a roll of 1 or 2 the model can't Move vertical/up or down.

Also where is this stairs nonsense? All stairs determine if players only allow movement between floors if there are stairs, no where does it state stairs are a separate entity from ruins.

 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

Sure, but Can't Trumps can in a permissive ruleset.

You can't move more than 6 inches.

You can leap down...

But doesn't Always trump can't and even if not don't advance rules trump basic rules...

 FlingitNow wrote:
But doesn't Always trump can't and even if not don't advance rules trump basic rules...

Not unless it specifically calls out that rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
But doesn't Always trump can't and even if not don't advance rules trump basic rules...

Not unless it specifically calls out that rule.

No that's specific versus general. Advance by default trumps basic rules without needing to be more specific.

 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

You missed a significant portion of that rule...

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down...[Fluff removed] A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99)

The rule specifies that the unit must not be falling back.

Not sure why, in the section for ruins, they mention buildings. Just sloppy writing I guess.

You've cropped the 2nd sentence I've already covered that point on the previous page.

Dat Guy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

I am posting because this is the most ridiculous contradiction ever, vertical stands for up and down, it does not mean just up. If you move up or down in a ruin it's difficult terrain that's why in your own quote it says on a roll of 1 or 2 the model can't Move vertical/up or down.

I never said vertical only meant up... Not sure what your point is with that.
And yes, moving up or down in difficult terrain means you roll. Guess what you ignore when falling back?

Also where is this stairs nonsense? All stairs determine if players only allow movement between floors if there are stairs, no where does it state stairs are a separate entity from ruins.

It's easier to say "stairs" than "vertical movement".
And the rule I quoted shows that there is a difference between vertical movement and ruins.

It would be more reasonable if models were REQUIRED to jump down when falling back. Would make camping in ruins that much more dangerous. But alas, that is not the case.

Anyway, I agree that the levels you descend while falling back are indeed reduced from the fall back distance. Moving down (or up) levels in ruins costs 3", therefore I have no idea why people think that ignoring difficult terrain suddenly changes this. You could as well have intact buildings with balconies that are not difficult terrain, yet you would still pay 3" for descending or ascending them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
the models can always jump down". So we know all models can jump down even if falling back only falling back models can't elect to do it rather than take a DT test, which makes perfect sense as falling back models never take DT tests.

No, falling back models can not jump down even if falling back...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99)

Says that only units that are not falling back can.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You've cropped the 2nd sentence...

The rest of the sentence still does not allow falling back models to jump down.

Dang. My group has played that falling back models Leap Down, because they're so afraid of whatever it is that made them run in the first place.
Now we'll have to take that fun bit out... :(

No, falling back models can not jump down even if falling back...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99)

Says that only units that are not falling back can.

That is not what that says though is it. Again you've cropped the statement to try to create a restriction that simply isn't in the rules. That statement is an allowance to jump down instead of taking a difficult terrain test. The part that says "not falling back" is actually functionally redundant in the sentence (as units falling back don't ever take difficult terrain tests). The permission for any unit to jump down is given in the first sentence, but only units not falling back get to jump down rather than take their difficult terrain test.

Then their is a sentence that tells us what happens to models that jump down.

Here is the whole quote "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

If they are falling back they can not elect to leap down.

Plain and simple RAW.

If they are falling back they can not elect to leap down

That is not what the rule says. The rule is permission not a restriction. It is permission to jump down instead of doing a difficult terrain test. Falling back units don't take difficult terrain tests so could never use this rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Here is the whole quote "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

If they are falling back they can not elect to leap down.

...and instead must Leap Down? That's a possible interpretation, perhaps?

 FlingitNow wrote:
That is not what the rule says. The rule is permission not a restriction. It is permission to jump down instead of doing a difficult terrain test. Falling back units don't take difficult terrain tests so could never use this rule.

There aretwo statements. The first just says that 'units' can elect to jump. The second, in bold text, specifies that units that are not falling back can elect to jump.

As I read it, the first statement is intended to serve as an introduction to the rule, not a rule in itself... because if we're meant to take that statement as blanket permission for all units, falling back or not, to jump down, there is no point in the bolded rule statement being there.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

Sure, but Can't Trumps can in a permissive ruleset.

You can't move more than 6 inches.

You can leap down...

Show me where Leap Down is a movement and not a placement.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

Sure, but Can't Trumps can in a permissive ruleset.

You can't move more than 6 inches.

You can leap down...

Show me where Leap Down is a movement and not a placement.

"That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test," (95) (Emphasis mine)

"rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

When are DT tests made?

"each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90) (Emphasis mine)

There aretwo statements. The first just says that 'units' can elect to jump. The second, in bold text, specifies that units that are not falling back can elect to jump.

That's not what the second statement says though is it. What is actually says is that units not falling back can avoid a difficult terrain by electing to jump down. The fact that falling back units never take difficult terrain tests means that functionally the exclusion of falling back units in the statement is redundant as even without it the falling back unit would not be able to perform that action.

There is permission to jump down in the first sentence. There is no denial of permission in the boulded sentence. Therefore falling back units may jump down. If it is the shortest route then they must jump down.

You are not understanding what the sentence says fling...

It is a restriction.

""A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

If they are not falling back, and they are descending through a building then they can...

 DeathReaper wrote:
You are not understanding what the sentence says fling...

It is a restriction.

""A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

If they are not falling back, and they are descending through a building then they can...

And what can they do? It is not a restriction on jumping down it is a restriction on the action it is giving you permission to take. What is that action?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You are not understanding what the sentence says fling...

It is a restriction.

""A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

If they are not falling back, and they are descending through a building then they can...

And what can they do? It is not a restriction on jumping down it is a restriction on the action it is giving you permission to take. What is that action?

The action is jumping down...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

They can take this action "Leap Down" instead of "Difficult Terrain test" to move through the terrain.

Since they specifically point out that the unit must not be falling back, then a falling back unit may never elect to leap down.

DR, I think the issue they are trying to get at is whether the choice to jump becomes compulsory because the unit can no longer elect (or choose) whether it jumps when falling back. The language can be read either way.

Can units jump up levels or only down? Don't have the book in front of me.

 RobPro wrote:
DR, I think the issue they are trying to get at is whether the choice to jump becomes compulsory because the unit can no longer elect (or choose) whether it jumps when falling back. The language can be read either way.

Can units jump up levels or only down? Don't have the book in front of me.

No, the only allowance for leaping down is for units that are not falling back.

The rules do not say that falling back units must leap down, this is not a rule anywhere in the book.

Also, you can only leap down, no leaping up.

The only permission in that sentence is for non-falling back units. There's no permission (or compulsion) for falling back units.

It's in their wording. They may no longer ELECT to jump, which means they can't choose whether or NOT they jump. It doesn't say they can't jump, just that they no longer have the ability to choose. So does that mean jumping becomes compulsory, or that they can't jump?

Do you see the issue?

 RobPro wrote:
It's in their wording. They may no longer ELECT to jump, which means they can't choose whether or NOT they jump. It doesn't say they can't jump, just that they no longer have the ability to choose. So does that mean jumping becomes compulsory, or that they can't jump?

Do you see the issue?

No, the rules do not say they must jump, therefore they can not. (Permissive ruleset tells us this is true).

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

Does not mean [Units that are falling back must...]

 RobPro wrote:
It's in their wording. They may no longer ELECT to jump, which means they can't choose whether or NOT they jump. It doesn't say they can't jump, just that they no longer have the ability to choose. So does that mean jumping becomes compulsory, or that they can't jump?

Do you see the issue?

I see the issue in you misapplying the rule.
They cannot elect to jump. There is no permission to jump without electing to jump. Therefore they cannot jump.

Can means there is choice. Falling back units lose that choice. The rules are not specific as to what they MUST do instead.

 RobPro wrote:
Can means there is choice. Falling back units lose that choice.

Ecactly, therefore units that are falling back lose the option of leaping down, therefore they can not perform that option.

The rules are not specific as to what they MUST do instead.

The rules are quite clear on how a falling back unit moves...

The action is jumping down...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

They can take this action "Leap Down" instead of "Difficult Terrain test" to move through the terrain.

Since they specifically point out that the unit must not be falling back, then a falling back unit may never elect to leap down.

The action is not jumping down though is it. The rule clearly states what the action is and it is an action that is impossible for a falling back unit to take with or with the wording mentioning a falling back unit.

The only permission in that sentence is for non-falling back units. There's no permission (or compulsion) for falling back units.

In that sentence yes but in the first sentence of that paragraph falling back units are given permission.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The only permission in that sentence is for non-falling back units. There's no permission (or compulsion) for falling back units.

In that sentence yes but in the first sentence of that paragraph falling back units are given permission.

Citation needed, because I do not see where falling back units are allowed...

 RobPro wrote:
Can means there is choice. Falling back units lose that choice. The rules are not specific as to what they MUST do instead.

Correct - non-falling back units have a choice. Choice to do what? Jump off.
Is there any mention of jumping off being allowed for falling back units? No.
Therefore there's no permission to jump.

Falling back units cannot Leap Down.

That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test," (95) (Emphasis mine)

"rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

When are DT tests made?

"each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90) (Emphasis mine)

This does nothing to show placing = moving. Exactly like does not mean it is a DT test. Even if it did placing would satisfy the "entering" part of your example.

Fragile wrote:
Falling back units cannot Leap Down.

That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test," (95) (Emphasis mine)

"rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

When are DT tests made?

"each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90) (Emphasis mine)

This does nothing to show placing = moving. Exactly like does not mean it is a DT test. Even if it did placing would satisfy the "entering" part of your example.

Sure it does, unless you ignore: "each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90)

DT tests are made when? (A: entering, leaving or moving through DT..) It happens when models move...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

The only permission in that sentence is for non-falling back units. There's no permission (or compulsion) for falling back units.

In that sentence yes but in the first sentence of that paragraph falling back units are given permission.

Citation needed, because I do not see where falling back units are allowed...

Did that even make sense when you wrote it? Asking for a citation on a citation???

Read the first sentence of the paragraph or check on the numerous times it has already been quoted.

Basically at the moment your entire argument is based on taking half of an entirely irrelevant sentence out of context...

Let's for a minute assume that the sentence didn't mention falling back units so instead it read:

"A unit that is descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test"

Would a falling back unit be able to use that rule? No because they never take difficult terrain tests and therefore would never be able to elect to avoid one. So the part about not falling back is functionally redundant in this sentence and thus this sentence is entirely irrelevant to the argument.

I've shown permission for falling back units I've shown your attempt at denial is irrelevant now state some actual relevant rules that deny a falling back unit the ability to jump down.

The first sentence of the paragraph is all well and good, but it does not say that [Falling back units may leap sown] No matter how much you think it does...

You have not shown permission for a falling back unit to leap down. If I missed it please quote it again.

The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

And the second sentence clarifies that the unit must not be falling back.

It is really that simple.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

And the second sentence clarifies that the unit must not be falling back.

It is really that simple.

Where in the 2nd sentence does it deny permission? As you once again quote an entirely irrelevant rule that can not have anything to do with units falling back as I've illustrated. Unless you're claim units falling back can take difficult terrain tests. In which case I'll need a citation.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

And the second sentence clarifies that the unit must not be falling back.

It is really that simple.

Where in the 2nd sentence does it deny permission? As you once again quote an entirely irrelevant rule that can not have anything to do with units falling back as I've illustrated. Unless you're claim units falling back can take difficult terrain tests. In which case I'll need a citation.

1) it does not give permission for a unit that is falling back in the sentence you quoted.

2) "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99) There is the rule on who may elect to leap down.

How can you say that a unit that is falling back can leap down when the rule specifies that a unit can not leap if it is falling back?

Who can always elect to leap down?
Non-falling back units.

Do falling back units ever have permission? I haven't seen it cited and I don't see it in the rules.

1) So falling back units cease to be units now? Citation please.

2) That is an out right lie. Please rescind that statement that has been demonstrably proven false.

How can you say that a unit that is falling back can leap down when the rule specifies that a unit can not leap if it is falling back?

Citation as no such rule exists.

Do falling back units ever have permission? I haven't seen it cited and I don't see it in the rules.

Check the quotes provided on this page or go to page 99 you want the 1st sentence under the title "Jumping Down". Glad to clear that up for you.

they ignore diff terrain,

but there is still 3" of terrain to move through to get down, difficult or not, between ruins levels, and you have to move through that 3", so yes, you do take of 3" per ruin level, when falling back,

 FlingitNow wrote:
1) So falling back units cease to be units now? Citation please.

2) That is an out right lie. Please rescind that statement that has been demonstrably proven false.

1) it does not specifically...

2) How can you say that when I have provided evidence?

Are you trolling at this point? I really do not get it.

This: "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99) Is actually a rule on who may elect to leap down, all in black and white text. Not sure where you are going with this.

1) Falling back units are units so they are covered.

2) You're cropping an irrelevant sentence and trying to apply a blanket restriction from a restricted permission. Which I've already explained.

So we know from the first sentence that falling back units can always jump down if on a higher level of a ruin. And we know that the sentence that talks about units avoiding a difficult terrain test is not relevant for falling back units (as they never take difficult terrain tests). So where is your denial of the permission given?

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) You're cropping an irrelevant sentence and trying to apply a blanket restriction from a restricted permission. Which I've already explained

So we know from the first sentence that falling back units can always jump down if on a higher level of a ruin. And we know that the sentence that talks about units avoiding a difficult terrain test is not relevant for falling back units (as they never take difficult terrain tests). So where is your denial of the permission given?

The explanation does not override the fact that it restricts it to units that are not falling back.

It is a restriction.

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

A unit that is not falling back can... This means if you are falling back you can not.

It is also because units that fall back do not make DT tests and use a random distance for their movement.

As Rig said: "Who can always elect to leap down?
Non-falling back units."

The way we've alwayd played it was the unit must fallback usinh the vertical distance. But if the fallback distance is not enough to make it down a level, for instance they roll a 5 on a two level ruin, then they have to jump so they can finish thier whole fallback distance.

The explanation does not override the fact that it restricts it to units that are not falling back.

It is a restriction.

A unit that is not falling back can... This means if you are falling back you can not.

Correct a unit falling back can not avoid a dangerous terrain test by jumping down. What is your point. Since they never take dangerous terrain tests this is true regardless of that sentence. And again is irrelevant. Stop talking about units avoiding difficult terrain tests talk about jumping down.

Show denial of permission to make a jump down move.

As Rig said: "Who can always elect to leap down?
Non-falling back units."

That doesn't make it true though because that is not what the rules say.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The explanation does not override the fact that it restricts it to units that are not falling back.

It is a restriction.

A unit that is not falling back can... This means if you are falling back you can not.

Correct a unit falling back can not avoid a dangerous terrain test by jumping down.

No, it means that units that are not falling back can not jump down...

 FlingitNow wrote:

As Rig said: "Who can always elect to leap down?
Non-falling back units."

That doesn't make it true though because that is not what the rules say.

It really is what the rules say, as the evidence that you are ignoring shows.

No, it means that units that are not falling back can not jump down...

So the rulebook is lying now? It says 1 thing but that means something completely different?

It really is what the rules say, as the evidence that you are ignoring shows.

I'm not the one ignoring rules here. My argument in this instance is based purely on what's written. Your argument is based on ignoring 1 sentence entirely (for no reason) then cropping another sentence to change its meaning. You're just trolling now.

I've proven permission. So prove that falling back units aren't units. Or proven that there is denial of permission for falling back units to jump down. Or concede. If you post an irrelevant rule about avoiding dangerous terrain tests that will illustrate that we both know you've lost and I'll take that ad you conceding.

Your argument is based on reading the rules wrong. How much more clear can that sentence be ? We should be great full when GW makes clear wording.

A unit that is not falling back,

Is the unit falling back?

What can it not do ?

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level,

A unit that is falling back, does not have permission to leap down. Its that simple.

Stormbreed wrote:
Your argument is based on reading the rules wrong. How much more clear can that sentence be ? We should be great full when GW makes clear wording.

A unit that is not falling back,

Is the unit falling back?Yes

What can it not do ?choose to avoid a difficult terrain test by jumping down

It is still not a blanket denial of permission for falling back units to jump down. It is permission for non-falling back units to avoid difficult terrain tests by jumping down.

You ask the very questions that destroy your argument. Not a great plan unless you're trolling.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Your argument is based on reading the rules wrong. How much more clear can that sentence be ? We should be great full when GW makes clear wording.

A unit that is not falling back,

Is the unit falling back?Yes

What can it not do ?choose to avoid a difficult terrain test by jumping down

It is still not a blanket denial of permission for falling back units to jump down. It is permission for non-falling back units to avoid difficult terrain tests by jumping down.

You ask the very questions that destroy your argument. Not a great plan unless you're trolling.

Just show permission to jump down while falling back, I don't see it.

Fragile wrote:

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level,

A unit that is falling back, does not have permission to leap down. Its that simple.

Not from that sentence. But the first sentence does give them permission and that sentence does not deny that permission.


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Stormbreed wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Your argument is based on reading the rules wrong. How much more clear can that sentence be ? We should be great full when GW makes clear wording.

A unit that is not falling back,

Is the unit falling back?Yes

What can it not do ?choose to avoid a difficult terrain test by jumping down

It is still not a blanket denial of permission for falling back units to jump down. It is permission for non-falling back units to avoid difficult terrain tests by jumping down.

You ask the very questions that destroy your argument. Not a great plan unless you're trolling.

Just show permission to jump down while falling back, I don't see it.

Read the first sentence: "A unit that is descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test"

Units that are falling back are units.

That is not the first sentence.

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down

That is the first sentence. Which is an explanation of what "Gravity-- Nature's Downward Express" means.

Now you get into how the rule works, which says.

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test. however, all descending models in the unit must take an Impact test (

This is the rule that tells you what you can and cannot do. If you are not falling back, you can Leap down to avoid a DT test. This allows you to guarantee that you can get to the bottom of the ruin if you are on the second or higher floor without having to roll. In order to do this however, you have to take an Impact test, which is then explained.

You are trying to skip the first part of the rule sentence.

 Bausk wrote:
The way we've alwayd played it was the unit must fallback usinh the vertical distance. But if the fallback distance is not enough to make it down a level, for instance they roll a 5 on a two level ruin, then they have to jump so they can finish thier whole fallback distance.

I feel like this makes sense, but now suppose you're on the 6th floor of a ruin and must leap down to continue falling back your 2 inches. Now you have to make a dangerous terrain test you automatically fail because of how far down you had to go to continue moving horizontally.

Also, let's look at "Trapped!" on page 30 -

"If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed."

So if a unit is on the second level of ruin, rolls 5 inches for a ball back move, moves 3 inches back to the edge of the level, and then has 2 inches left to move which isn't enough to go down a level, wouldn't that unit by definition be Trapped! and removed entirely?

We based it on that fallback is not a voluntary form of movment. If they can safely decend then they do, if they don't have the distance to get down a level then they jump to move the full distance.

I agree with the argument that the falling back rule requires the unit to jump down as that is the shortest possible route since it requires no movement to fallt to the ground, but paying the movement to go down elevation increases the distance to the table edge, so that is not the shortest route.

Hmm, after rereading the leap down rules I realize everyone in my group has been making an assumption that it doesn't cost movement to travel the distance, just negates the difficult terrain role to determine how far they move. Upon rereading the Leaping Down in the battlements section it sounds like it costs you all your movement to use the rule, and you get 3 inches of vertical movement, assuming you survive, no matter how far down you jumped. Seems kind of poor choice to have to pay the movement and make an impact test on purpose.

Although with that 3 inches of vertical movement, if that brings the falling back unit closer to the table edge then normal movement through the ruins I think they would still have to take the Leap Down choice.

 RobPro wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
The way we've alwayd played it was the unit must fallback usinh the vertical distance. But if the fallback distance is not enough to make it down a level, for instance they roll a 5 on a two level ruin, then they have to jump so they can finish thier whole fallback distance.

I feel like this makes sense, but now suppose you're on the 6th floor of a ruin and must leap down to continue falling back your 2 inches. Now you have to make a dangerous terrain test you automatically fail because of how far down you had to go to continue moving horizontally.

Also, let's look at "Trapped!" on page 30 -

"If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed."

So if a unit is on the second level of ruin, rolls 5 inches for a ball back move, moves 3 inches back to the edge of the level, and then has 2 inches left to move which isn't enough to go down a level, wouldn't that unit by definition be Trapped! and removed entirely?

No, because you could move down a level first then move laterally.


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 FlingitNow wrote:

Fragile wrote:

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level,

A unit that is falling back, does not have permission to leap down. Its that simple.

Not from that sentence. But the first sentence does give them permission and that sentence does not deny that permission.

Citation needed for where it allows a Unit that is falling back to leap down. I still a not seeing it, a quote with underscore or some kind of highlight would help.

Oh god, more of this "I need a direct quote, specific to the word, regarding the rule" arguing.

Falling back requires you to move as directly to the table edge as possible.

Leaping down does not state falling back units may not leap down, it merely gives the option of leaping down, or not leaping down to units that are not falling back.

If a unit has to move towards the table edge by the most direct means possible, and leaping down moves them closer to the table edge, I would have to say they have to leap down.

Its a really strange idea that a unit would calmly choose to jump down and break their necks, but a panicked fleeing unit wouldn't do it out of desperation.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 RobPro wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
The way we've alwayd played it was the unit must fallback usinh the vertical distance. But if the fallback distance is not enough to make it down a level, for instance they roll a 5 on a two level ruin, then they have to jump so they can finish thier whole fallback distance.

I feel like this makes sense, but now suppose you're on the 6th floor of a ruin and must leap down to continue falling back your 2 inches. Now you have to make a dangerous terrain test you automatically fail because of how far down you had to go to continue moving horizontally.

Also, let's look at "Trapped!" on page 30 -

"If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed."

So if a unit is on the second level of ruin, rolls 5 inches for a ball back move, moves 3 inches back to the edge of the level, and then has 2 inches left to move which isn't enough to go down a level, wouldn't that unit by definition be Trapped! and removed entirely?

No, because you could move down a level first then move laterally.

What happens if the unit is already as lateral as possible and must continue descending?

Rumbleguts wrote:
Oh god, more of this "I need a direct quote, specific to the word, regarding the rule" arguing.

It's almost like the actual rules matter...

Leaping down does not state falling back units may not leap down, it merely gives the option of leaping down, or not leaping down to units that are not falling back.

Correct! Meaning the option to jump down has not been given to units that are falling back...

If a unit has to move towards the table edge by the most direct means possible, and leaping down moves them closer to the table edge, I would have to say they have to leap down.

Despite any rule allowing it?

Its a really strange idea that a unit would calmly choose to jump down and break their necks, but a panicked fleeing unit wouldn't do it out of desperation.

Applying real world logic to 40k will fail every time you attempt it.
It's really a strange idea that a marine watching his buddy get his soul sucked out can't reach over and pick up that melta gun.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Oh god, more of this "I need a direct quote, specific to the word regarding the rule" arguing.

Well it is important that people that are discussion the rules back up their claims with rules citations.

If you do not understand why then let me help.

Anyone can make a claim that a rule book says something. However more weight is given to the person that back up their claims with rules citations.

If I said "You do not get first blood for killing a Gun Emplacement" this holds no weight in a rules discussion because I have not backed it up with anything.

If I said "You do not get first blood for killing a Gun Emplacement, Checkout the rules on Page 122 (Gun Emplacements) and Page 3 (Units) for more information. This holds a little more weight because people can read the rules for what I am referencing. Giving Direct Quites complete with a conclusion drawn from those quotes is the best way to back a position.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Leaping down does not state falling back units may not leap down

It does not need to say falling back units may not leap down The permissive ruleset tells us this already. If the rules do not say you can, then you can not. Unless you think that I can bring my models back on the table after they have been removed as a casualty because the rules do not say that I can not do this...

It needs to state they can and because there is no option given for units that are falling back to leap down, therefore they can not leap down. (P.99)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RobPro wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 RobPro wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
The way we've alwayd played it was the unit must fallback usinh the vertical distance. But if the fallback distance is not enough to make it down a level, for instance they roll a 5 on a two level ruin, then they have to jump so they can finish thier whole fallback distance.

I feel like this makes sense, but now suppose you're on the 6th floor of a ruin and must leap down to continue falling back your 2 inches. Now you have to make a dangerous terrain test you automatically fail because of how far down you had to go to continue moving horizontally.

Also, let's look at "Trapped!" on page 30 -

"If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed."

So if a unit is on the second level of ruin, rolls 5 inches for a ball back move, moves 3 inches back to the edge of the level, and then has 2 inches left to move which isn't enough to go down a level, wouldn't that unit by definition be Trapped! and removed entirely?

No, because you could move down a level first then move laterally.

What happens if the unit is already as lateral as possible and must continue descending?

then you would have to move them parallel to the table edge that 2 inches.

If the Enemy is in a U shape around a falling back unit, that falling back unit must first move away from the table edge to try and get around the enemy. This is not being trapped as the rules have laid out. so the same would apply to a unit that rolls a 2 for its fall back distance and can not descend.

Except leaping would take the unit closer to the table edge without triggering the trapped rule, as fallback is not voluntary movement they must leap. If you move lateraly then you have not moved closer to the table edge when the unit could have lept and moved closer.

In this case there is no enemy or even impassible terrain, which are the examples they gave that give you permission to double back. You cannot move around vertical distance. If the unit cannot leap down and cannot continue to move 2 more inches per its fallback roll, why isn't it trapped and destroyed?

Citation needed for where it allows a Unit that is falling back to leap down. I still a not seeing it, a quote with underscore or some kind of highlight would help.

Here you go:

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models [bcan always jump down[/b]"

Are units that are falling back still units. If so then the above is permission to always jump down...

 FlingitNow wrote:

Citation needed for where it allows a Unit that is falling back to leap down. I still a not seeing it, a quote with underscore or some kind of highlight would help.

Here you go:

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models [bcan always jump down[/b]"

Are units that are falling back still units. If so then the above is permission to always jump down...

Fluff text, but... Leaping Down places the models, Falling back requires you to move. That is why you cannot Leap down while falling back.

You cannot leap down from a ruin whilst falling back

GRAVITY – NATURE’S DOWNWARD EXPRESS

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down. This, as it sounds, is really quite dangerous and bound to end with a sickening snapping noise, but desperation can often make such things necessary. A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test. However, all descending models in the unit must take an Impact test.

Please if you cite something don't pick a few words in the middle of sentence or the first half of a paragraph just because it supports your argument. Specially if the next part proves you wrong.

You're not electing to jump, you're forced to jump if you cannot complete the full move. Elect means you have a choice, fallback is specifically excluded from electing to jump as you have no choice. but they can always jump if it is the only option that takes them closest ti thier table edge.

If you are falling back you have no permission to jump.

The fallback rule states:
Each model in the unit moves directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible ROUTE

It only mentions the path you take not the method. When leaping from a structure is mandatory part of the fall back move it is specifically mentioned I.e. leaping from destroyed battlements.

A fallback move is a tactical withdraw. In your version of the rules models would be hurling themselves willy nilly from the top floors of ruins regardless of the consequences.

I don't see how moving down is directly towards your table edge...

Because vertical distance is measured as well as horizontal

Moving down isn't moving directly to the table edge but it is necessary step to take before moving towards the table egde by the shortest possible route. It is exactly the same as moving left or right first to go around impassable terrain.

Again they cannot elect to leap, there is no denial for a unit falling back to leap if they must. As for verticle movement, being floors up is tge same as being 9 inches further away as far as falling back is concerned. Leaping is going closer to the table edge compared to walking along 2 inches parallel to it because you are at least a base length closer by comparison.

You count the 3" down per level first, then the horizontal movement back to the table edge. You are not required to leap.

Plain and simple, the Fall Back rules use all elements of the Movement rules except for the two exceptions - ignoring Difficult Terrain tests and direction of movement.

You ignore Difficult Terrain tests because it normally requires a roll and the Fall Back is already a roll. Secondly, Fall Back means you must move towards the table edge - not in some direction you choose. Otherwise all other movement rules apply normally.

Moving vertically down a building is moving involuntarily towards your table edge. To look at this different. If a three story ruin was 6" from the table edge and you started a model right on your table edge and eventually moved it to the third story, you would expend 15" of movement to do so (6" horizontal followed by 9" of vertical). When you fall back, you can simply look at it as tracing a line back from the way you got there.

Fluff text, but... Leaping Down places the models, Falling back requires you to move. That is why you cannot Leap down while falling back.

Please tell where in the rules this statement is in anyway supported. Nothing states that it is fluff text it uses clear game terminology and has a defined in game outcome. Where does it state placement and not movement?

Please if you cite something don't pick a few words in the middle of sentence or the first half of a paragraph just because it supports your argument. Specially if the next part proves you wrong.

How does the next part prove me wrong? Please read the thread and you'll understand what has been quoted and why and you'll not make these already debunked arguments.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Citation needed for where it allows a Unit that is falling back to leap down. I still a not seeing it, a quote with underscore or some kind of highlight would help.

Here you go:

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models [bcan always jump down[/b]"

Are units that are falling back still units. If so then the above is permission to always jump down...

Hmm so units are not actually given permission to jump down in what you quoted, only models.

Hmm so unitsa are not actually given permission to jump down in what you quoted, only models...

And what models is it talking about?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Hmm so unitsa are not actually given permission to jump down in what you quoted, only models...

And what models is it talking about?

But that does not matter because:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

We have rules for Leaping Down, but not jumping down...

Game set match it seems.

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

What models it is talking about isn't relevant. The actual rules discussing how to leap down limit their application to models not falling back. There are no rules addressing how to handle models that are falling back. Therefore there's no permission.

 FlingitNow wrote:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

Please cite what jump down' does as per the rules.

The actual rules discussing how to leap down limit their application to models not falling back.

Demonstrably false. The ONLY jumping down rules that don't apply to falling back units are the ability to give up a dalifficult terrain test. Please find other rules about jumping down that don't talk about difficult terrain and are limited to falling back units (notice how the impact tests are not limited to falling back units nor is the diagram explaining it).

There are no rules addressing how to handle models that are falling back.

Again the rules say otherwise. Notice how they say falling back units may jump down and that the models that do so suffer impact.

Therefore there's no permission.

Again that first sentence disagrees...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

Please cite what jump down' does as per the rules.

What do you think jumping down does? Because for falling back units everything is the sane except they don't get to give up their difficult terrain test (which they never take anyway).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

Please cite what 'jump down' does as per the rules.

What do you think jumping down does?

Well considering there are absolutely zero rules for 'jump down' that first sentence is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Unless you can give me a citation on what the rules for 'jump down' are.

The burden of proof in on you.

Well considering there are absolutely zero rules for 'jump down' that first sentence is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Unless you can give me a citation on what the rules for 'jump down' are.

The burden of proof in on you.

Then that 2nd sentence also does nothing other than allow people to avoid DT tests...

I've cited the rules I'm using you're now trying to prove that JD does nothing because your argument that falling back units can't do it fell flat on its face. But that argument (on how well defined JD is) applies just as much to your side as mine.

It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Exactly this.

Jump Down is not a rule.

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

 Bausk wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

Cite rules allowing falling back units to leap down. We have rules allowing non-falling back units to leap down.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

Cite rules allowing falling back units to leap down. We have rules allowing non-falling back units to leap down.

All of a single page back the permission is cited for all units without exception.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

 Bausk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

Cite rules allowing falling back units to leap down. We have rules allowing non-falling back units to leap down.

All of a single page back the permission is cited for all units without exception.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

Which are rules for Leaping Down. Non-falling back units can elect to leap down from Ruins. A falling back unit only has permission to leap down from battlements.

Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

The rules for Leaping Down (on page 95) deal with Battlements. The permission there is granted to all units. Therefore, any unit (including a unit falling back) on a battlement can leap down.

The rules on page 99 (Gravity-Nature's Downward Express), gives permission for a non-falling back unit to Leap Down as per page 95. As such, unless the unit is not falling back, it does not have permission to utilise the Leaping Down rules while on a ruin.

There has yet to be any permission shown for a falling back unit on a ruins to leap down.

 Bausk wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

(Emphasis mine)

Note what I underlined. Find rules for 'jump down'

I'll wait.

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

That line is a fluff line describing the event. It states you can jump down.. Cite the page for the Jump Down rule. Also cite the page where Falling back units are FORCED to jump down.

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

A). I have FlingItNow on ignore so didn't see his post.
B). That's a general statement. The actual rules for leaping down limit it to non-falling back units.
It's like being able to nominate a unit to move but the actual rules for that units movement forbid movement.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

A). I have FlingItNow on ignore so didn't see his post.
B). That's a general statement. The actual rules for leaping down limit it to non-falling back units.
It's like being able to nominate a unit to move but the actual rules for that units movement forbid movement.

The rules don't actually forbid the unit from leaping down, they just don't give the player the option of choosing whether or not they leap.

 RobPro wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

A). I have FlingItNow on ignore so didn't see his post.
B). That's a general statement. The actual rules for leaping down limit it to non-falling back units.
It's like being able to nominate a unit to move but the actual rules for that units movement forbid movement.

The rules don't actually forbid the unit from leaping down, they just don't give the player the option of choosing whether or not they leap.

No, they don't give falling back units the option to leap - meaning they have no permission to do so. There's no actual rule allowing it.
All models can jump down. What does that mean? Here's a rule about leaping down - oh, it applies to units that are not falling back. This unit doesn't meet that requirement so that rule cannot apply.

Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

 RobPro wrote:
Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

Care to cite the page that requires them to leap down ?

 RobPro wrote:
Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

Can you cite where it says they must leap?
Can you cite rules allowing falling back units to leap?
The only rules that have been quoted give a general allowance but no "how to" and the "how to" rule has a restriction attached (that you're ignoring).

Fragile wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

Care to cite the page that requires them to leap down ?

If the only way to continue falling back would be by leaping down, it looks like they must do it. They're not allowed to choose (elect) to leap down, but nowhere does it state they cannot leap down. If they cannot continue falling back (via the shortest route without doubling back) without leaping down, then they must leap down. It is no longer a choice if it is the only way for the unit to fulfill it's fallback move.

 RobPro wrote:
but nowhere does it state they cannot leap down.

and here is the flaw in your argument.

The rules do not say that I cannot place my models back on the board after they are killed, but that does not mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive. This means you are only allowed to do what the rules say you can do.

Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

 RobPro wrote:
Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

Except there is no permission for falling back units to leap down (willfully or not) from ruins. Only Battlements allow any units to leap down.

 RobPro wrote:
Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

Now find permission, anywhere, for falling back units to leap down

You cannto do something unless you have permission. Find this permission.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

(Emphasis mine)

Note what I underlined. Find rules for 'jump down'

I'll wait.

See the figure "Jumping Down" page 99 and the paragraph under "Gravity - Nature's Downward Express".

The figure explains how impact tests work the paragraph explains that all units can jump down and that those units take impact tests.

IMO due to the wording of Leap / jumping in both sections, looks like it was intended to say the same things just they spaffed up the words, They have used jump and leap interchangeably. Even the Ruins section on it tells you 'descending through a building' Yeaaah, no wander people get confused over the difference, apparently even the writers were. But no, they've left a huge chunk out of the rule for ruins, and only referenced Page 95 for the impact test, though leap down is noted in the index as page 95 and 95 only.

So RAW no leaping down of any kind in ruins. This has been productive.

HIWPI, Can elect to leap down (unless falling back). HIWPI Leaping down is not limited by movement distance ( as in battlement rules). Or its the most pointless rule ever thought of.
I originally posted not forced to leap down but I'm going to change that to on the bench/don't really care / whatever my opponent does is gravy. For a start 2/3D6 is probably going to clear you without needing to. And not sure that shortest route was really referring to such instances. Not sure if there's anything that would allow you to roll for fall back then leap, or leap then roll for fall back as 'leap' or jump seems to consume your normal movement which is a bit tricksy as rolling a distance is not a normal movement type. Then to leap your not actually following the rules for falling back, which requires XD6 which may be the crunch point.

Though I would be happy to play forced to leap, seems fluffy. Kakking your pants and running for your life you'd probably jump rather than a careful set up your climbing equipment or locate the nearest emergency exit.

 RobPro wrote:
Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

There is no permission for falling back units to leap down (willfully or not) from ruins at all.

'A unit that is not falling back can choose...' is not the same thing as 'units that are falling back must...', you can see the difference in the two sentences right?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

(Emphasis mine)

Note what I underlined. Find rules for 'jump down'

I'll wait.

See the figure "Jumping Down" page 99 and the paragraph under "Gravity - Nature's Downward Express".

The figure explains how impact tests work the paragraph explains that all units can jump down and that those units take impact tests.

Hmm interesting I only see rules for Leaping down, not jumping down. Mind giving a quote please.

Check the section the quotes are already here except for the stuff in the jumping down figure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to use the leaping down rules on page 95 for ruins they don't work as they only talk about buildings not ruins. If that's what you're trying to get at?

Look at the charge rules they also say move your closest model to your nearest enemy using the shortest route. I assume if my model was on top of the ruins you wouldn't insist that I leap down and take an impact hit on my models before I finish my charge.


Route = the path you must take not the method, no where in the ruins section of the brb does it say you must leap down. Thought it clearly states you cannot elect to do so whilst falling back.

FlingitNow,

The rules for leaping down from ruins directs back to the rules for leaping down from battlements. The difference is while any unit is given permission to leap down from battlements, only a non-falling back unit that is descending is given permission to use those rules to leap down from ruins.

The rules for leaping down from ruins directs back to the rules for leaping down from battlements.

Not true the only rules on page 95 that are referenced are impact tests.

The difference is while any unit is given permission to leap down from battlements, only a non-falling back unit that is descending is given permission to use those rules to leap down from ruins.

Only if you believe jumping down and leaping down are different (which I don't but RAW there is an argument both ways). Fortunately between the figure called jumping down and the rules on jumping down on page 99 give you enough to go on.

Well lets see.

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down. This as it sounds, is really quite dangerous and bound to end with a sickening snapping noise, but desperation can often make such things necessary.

I'm not seeing it, but I could be wrong. Where in the above are rules? Please highlight them for me. The only rules I see are in the very next sentences:

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test. However, all descending models in the unit must take an Impact test (see page 95)

And there is no permission given for a falling back unit to leap down.

Sigh. Please read the thread this has already been covered. But all the information you need is covered in the first sentence you quote and the last then add in the figure about jumping down and presto.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sigh. Please read the thread this has already been covered. But all the information you need is covered in the first sentence you quote and the last then add in the figure about jumping down and presto.

So are you unable or unwilling to highlight my quote?

I have done so. As I stated the first and last sentence of your quote is what you are looking for. Plus the jumping down figure on page 99. As pointed out this has been stated repeatedly. Why ask for the same stuff over and over?

Except there are no rules for "Jumping down" in what I quoted. You keep claiming there are yet there are not.

The reason people keep asking fling, is you haven't actually produced a rule yet. "Jump down" isn't a rule, so the first sentence can only be fluff text.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Check the section the quotes are already here except for the stuff in the jumping down figure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to use the leaping down rules on page 95 for ruins they don't work as they only talk about buildings not ruins. If that's what you're trying to get at?

No, I mean there are literally zero rules for Jumping down. (If you find some please supply a quote so we can tell what exactly you are talking about).

Leaping down has rules but not jumping down.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I have done so. As I stated the first and last sentence of your quote is what you are looking for. Plus the jumping down figure on page 99. As pointed out this has been stated repeatedly. Why ask for the same stuff over and over?

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

Pg99

Jumping down
Two space marines take dangerous terrain tests to jump down, both roll a 3 for their impact tests, the space marine on the left survives: He's only falling 3'', and so only suffers a -1 penalty to the test. The space marine on the right is falling 6'' giving him a -2 modifier which turns his 3 into a 1 - he is therefore removed as a casualty.

Jump / leap are used interchangeably, this is reaaaaaally clear by just flicking through the relevant rules. Within the battlements
Abandon the battlements!
Section explains units that are falling back must jump for it - resolve as described in leaping down. While this is defiantly in under battlements ....

Put with the wording around can elect if your not falling back in the ruins section actually, while writers spaffed up the wording, looks like pretty good case of RAI. on further reading I am pretty sure that RAI is in strong favour of having to leap down when falling back, from a ruins.


RAW might not be in favour, but personally I believe the case is strong enough to warrant a FAQ, to clear what they meant.

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?

And now, its become trolling.

Fragile wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?

And now, its become trolling.

Exactly how I feel when repeatedly asked to provide rules that I have already repeatedly posted. Yet your side has exactly 1 sentence that you are only applying half of as the entire basis of your argument...

Glad you admit that you're trolling.

 Nem wrote:
Pg99

Jumping down
Two space marines take dangerous terrain tests to jump down, both roll a 3 for their impact tests, the space marine on the left survives: He's only falling 3'', and so only suffers a -1 penalty to the test. The space marine on the right is falling 6'' giving him a -2 modifier which turns his 3 into a 1 - he is therefore removed as a casualty.

Jump / leap are used interchangeably,

Jump / leap are [not] used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules. (Edit: Added the not, that was previously missing from my post).

The fluff may say jumping down (and indeed it does as there are no rules for jumping down, only for leaping down).

 FlingitNow wrote:

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?

Of course you can even though you have not provided one to back your argument, I have quoted a few times, but I can do it again.

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

Remember that the use of the word building here refers to a ruined building as pages 98-101 is talking about ruins so any mention of building means ruined building.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Exactly how I feel when repeatedly asked to provide rules that I have already repeatedly posted. Yet your side has exactly 1 sentence that you are only applying half of as the entire basis of your argument...

Glad you admit that you're trolling.

I literally just posted the whole sentence that contains the whole rule, how is that trolling exactly?

Jump / leap are used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules.

The figure on page 99 disagrees with this statement.

Of course you can even though you have not provided one to back your argument, I have quoted a few times, but I can do it again.

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

Remember that the use of the word building here refers to a ruined building as pages 98-101 is talking about ruins so any mention of building means ruined building.

No, I mean there are literally zero rules for leaping down. (If you find some please supply a quote so we can tell what exactly you are talking about).

Jumping down has rules but not leaping down.

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Leaping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

See how annoying this is?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Jump / leap are used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules.

The figure on page 99 disagrees with this statement.

Of course you can even though you have not provided one to back your argument, I have quoted a few times, but I can do it again.

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

Remember that the use of the word building here refers to a ruined building as pages 98-101 is talking about ruins so any mention of building means ruined building.

No, I mean there are literally zero rules for leaping down. (If you find some please supply a quote so we can tell what exactly you are talking about).

Jumping down has rules but not leaping down.

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Leaping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

See how annoying this is?

(Emphasis mine) The underlined is 100% False information, please retract it or back it up with a quote.

Why are you ignoring my citation? I have posted rules that reference Leaping down on page 95, ill post that too though so we are clear as to what I am talking about since you can not read it for yourself.

"LEAPING DOWN
A unit can always elect to leap down from the battlements, although this incurs significant risk. To resolve this, choose one model from the battlements and place it anywhere wholly within 3" of the base of the building that is at least I " away from enemy models, and not in impassable or lethal terrain. That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test, with a -l modifier for every full 3" the model has dropped. Unlike ordinary Dangerous Terrain tests, armour saves cannot be taken against Impact tests.Jump and Jet Pack models must still take Impact tests but they ignore any modifiers from falling 3 or more inches. If the model is slain, choose another and try again. If the model survives, resolve the same sequence for all the other models in the unit, taking care to remain in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed, for whatever reason, are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed." (95) This is the passage for Leaping down, and what Page 99 is referring to.

I don't get what you mean when you say "See how annoying this is?"

How annoying what is, asking for the rules quote when you have not provided one?


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 FlingitNow wrote:

Jump / leap are [not] used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules.

The figure on page 99 disagrees with this statement.

Right I meant to say are not, the Post has been fixed.

It was a direct quote from you when I quoted rules for jumping down. Ignoring a citation for someone and then asking for that very citation is somewhat annoying. That was the point being made.

So again I ask you for a rules quote about what leaping down is.Since you hhaven't provided one.

While within the Leap Down rules it does not say jump down, in other areas they are referring to Leap down rule as Jumping down. Defiantly describing the rules of Leap down with the title Jumping down in the caption, jumping down is not describing fluff, its describing how the rule works, It means Leap down rules but only refers as jumping down - rules with characteristic changes and everything. - I'm not going to claim interchangeability on fluff. Quite literally they are using the Leap down rules, with a massive caption of Jumping down and telling you what to do when you want to jump down (When they mean leap down). Kak writing throws dispute into use of either word, and when it is referring to what. It throws plausibility to 'Jump' in the Ruins rules to mean Leap.


The whole leap down sections within ruins is a total mess. To me it looks like they wanted to use both rules across each area, I mean, Ruins Leap down rules are very incomplete, it doesn't tell you what to do at all, but only references battlements for the test. Its so bad RAW ruins leap is completely non functional.

They are using Jump when they mean Leap, Leap is defiantly the RAW of the rule but they are using the word Jump and Jumping when describing how you use the rule - As I say its sloppy writing, as seen across all the building, ruins and fort area of the rule book.

 FlingitNow wrote:
It was a direct quote from you when I quoted rules for jumping down. Ignoring a citation for someone and then asking for that very citation is somewhat annoying. That was the point being made.

So again I ask you for a rules quote about what leaping down is.Since you hhaven't provided one.

He didn't? The complete "Leaping Down" rule is quoted in the post right above yours, made several minutes before you claim that one hasn't been provided.

And the "Jumping Down" figure is not a rule. It's an example with no rules (and if, as you claim, it is a rule, then ONLY Space Marines can jump down as no other reference is given to "units" in general).

While "Jumping Down" and "Leaping down" MAY be the same thing RAI, it is not RAW.

It's an application example of rules for leap down, with a big bolded underlined Jumping down caption on it.



No RAW is not RAI, but RAI is not unimportant. RAW is as it is written, logical attained RAI is used in many everyday games, and is the basis for many tournament FAQ articles, and eventual official FAQ articles. Some cases we can never be sure we are playing correctly until a FAQ, and discussions around both areas help people to make their own decisions on how they want to play. To know the evidence for a RAI is in many cases just as important as reading the rule book. Especially in such cases, where the probability is higher, logical and easily argued using the terrible writing between those 2 pages.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's an application example of rules for leap down, with a big bolded underlined Jumping down caption on it.



No RAW is not RAI, but RAI is not unimportant. RAW is as it is written, logical attained RAI is used in many everyday games, and is the basis for many tournament FAQ articles, and eventual official FAQ articles. Some cases we can never be sure we are playing correctly until a FAQ, and discussions around both areas help people to make their own decisions on how they want to play. To know the evidence for a RAI is in many cases just as important as reading the rule book. Especially in such cases, where the probability is higher, logical and easily argued using the terrible writing between those 2 pages.

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test. However, all descending models in the unit must take an Impact test

First - you can't elect to leap down because leaping down is a choice between impact test or difficult terrain test, since you don't take difficult terrain test for falling back you can't swap it for leaping down.

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down. This, as it sounds, is really quite dangerous and bound to end with a sickening snapping noise, but desperation can often make such things necessary

Second - yes if you want to read this section as you can always jump down, then you as a player CAN but not MUST decide if you jump the rule example of how to work out this would be found in the text below:

JUMPING DOWN - Two Space Marines take Dangerous Terrain test to jump down. Both roll a 3 for their Impact tests. The Space Marine on the left survives: he's only failing 3", and so only suffers a -1 penalty to the test. The Space Marine on the right is falling 6" giving him a -2 modifier which turns his 3 into a 1 — he is therefore removed as a casualty.

Fallback rules state

Each model in the unit moves directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route.

Since this only mentions the route you must take (in our discussion the route would be vertically down then horizontally towards the board each) not the method it would make it the choice of the player to jump down or to climb down.

Since only a Muppet would risk killing his own falling back troops then why would the jump down rule ever be used as part of the fallback from a ruin section.

Why? Because jumping/leaping as opposed to moving parallel to to table edge on fallback moves that are not a multiple of 3" IS the shortest route available. The unit is not electing to jump/leap, it just is juming/leaping to complete its fallback movement as RAW.


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Additionally as a fallback move is not voluntary you have no choice. The unit either has enough movement to decend normally or it jumps/leaps because it doesn't.

Leap Down is not movement. You are placed at the bottom of the building / ruin.

You roll 2D6 and get a total of 12 that's 6" to get down and 6" towards the end of table 12" in total.

The leap down rule replaces your whole movement allowing you to take an impact test for the down measurement and then place your model 3" away from the base of the ruin. 6" down and 3" towards the table edge 9" in total.

At no point in the book does it say leap down or jump down and then carry out your move.

But it does say :

If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see below).

Make of that what you will.

kranki wrote:
You roll 2D6 and get a total of 12 that's 6" to get down and 6" towards the end of table 12" in total.

The leap down rule replaces your whole movement allowing you to take an impact test for the down measurement and then place your model 3" away from the base of the ruin. 6" down and 3" towards the table edge 9" in total.

At no point in the book does it say leap down or jump down and then carry out your move.

But it does say :

If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see below).

Make of that what you will.

I thought it replaced the whole movement but it can't, as when falling back from battlements you must leap

Indeed the rule for abandon the battlements is quite specific

If a unit Falls Back while on a battlement, or the building below suffers a total collapse result

Since a ruin is not a battlement or a building the fallback move cannot be replaced with the leap down rule.

Fragile wrote:
Leap Down is not movement. You are placed at the bottom of the building / ruin.

Incorrect, it is movement.

"That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test" (95)

When do Dangerous Terrain tests happen?

A: "each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90)

Still even if its is a move the rules do not let you swap leap down for fallback unless you follow the abandon the battlements rule which don't apply to ruins.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Leap Down is not movement. You are placed at the bottom of the building / ruin.

Incorrect, it is movement.

"That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test" (95)

When do Dangerous Terrain tests happen?

A: "each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90)

It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test. Do you take Impact tests for moving through DT ?

This is a DT Test. pg 90.

To take a Dangerous Terrain test, roll a D6. On a result of a l, that model suffers a Wound. the model may take an armour or invulnerable save, but not a cover save, against this Wound

Though I find our discussions fun I think this is another thread that has run it's course.

Fragile wrote:
It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test.

No, it says it is "exactly like"

so everything that applies to a DT will apply to impact, including happening because you are moving.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test.

No, it says it is "exactly like"

so everything that applies to a DT will apply to impact, including happening because you are moving.

Says exactly like the test, not exactly like the circumstances leading up to the test, or including all reasons why you might take a test. Just the Test, how you take a test doesn't have anything to do with movement. Sometimes you have to take a test because you have moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kranki wrote:
Indeed the rule for abandon the battlements is quite specific

If a unit Falls Back while on a battlement, or the building below suffers a total collapse result

Since a ruin is not a battlement or a building the fallback move cannot be replaced with the leap down rule.

Yeaaah I wasn't suggesting that. My point was Leap replacing movement doesn't make sense when looking at leap down in battlements, and falling back. My thoughts before being automatic assumption that it replaces normal movement, but it has nothing to actually suggest so. It looks like a special circumstance where you potentially pay the price for advancing.

And when exactly is a DT test taken?

 DeathReaper wrote:
And when exactly is a DT test taken?

As soon as the model enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain.

Moving up and down battlements is not considered dangerous terrain - I am doing none of those things.


Is moving up and down a battlements considered dangerous terrain? Is leap even considered a move? Does leap tell you to treat it like dangerous terrain? If you leap down in your opponents shooting phase, how do you resolve that movement - Count as already moved in your next turn?



When is a impact test taken? - When you leap down.
What is a impact test? - A impact test is exactly like a dangerous terrain test.

Is a impact test and a dangerous terrain test the same? - Yes, the tests are the same, the reason you are taking the test is not. Or they would have just wrote, Leaping down is considered dangerous terrain and left it at that.

If it is not movement then a unit of assault marines could jump down 12 inches from the top of a ruined building, then travel another 12 inches to cap an objective on the final turn?

If this is true this will make for some interesting strategy. (This is OT so maybe we should start another thread, in fact I will do that now).


However it seems like the Leaping Down rules do not allow a unit that is falling back to Leap down from a ruined building. so the OP has his answer.

It says you ignore terrain for falling back what's the dispute?

Dat Guy wrote:
It says you ignore terrain for falling back what's the dispute?

There's like 7 pages talking about that, i suggest starting with the first post.

They suffer a penalty the further they leap more likely of death, so even increased distance comes with a heavy price, no saves allowed, bit of a crazy strategy, don't think it's very advantageous in most cases, just is another option (I've never seen Leap used in any game tbh)

7 inches is -2 to dts, so every model has 50% chance of taking a wound with no saves, might as well be called lemming down at that point

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test.

No, it says it is "exactly like"

so everything that applies to a DT will apply to impact, including happening because you are moving.

So you take Impact tests every time you move through dangerous terrain, as well as a Dangerous Terrain Test ?

Your confusing what a Test is and the trigger for the test.

It seems like the Leaping Down rules do not allow a unit that is falling back to Leap down from a ruined building.

So the OP has his answer.

I started another thread for Leaping Down and if it is movement or not.