As many people know, the CSM codex is below-par (ha) aside from Nurgle Everything and Heldrakes.
I'm attempting to bring C:CSM to stand a chance against the other updated 'dexs without having to rely on these units, and to better internally balance it, eventually. (Recosting Heldrakes and MoN, or at the very least making the other marks more appealing)
There used to be a big section of the rules here, but I've re-located it to Download-Only (grew too unwieldy) vis Google Docs.
A 210pt Heldrake is going to really struggle to get its points back by doing its job (MEQ-hunting). Also, the thing really isn't as scary as people make out. Mine was killed by a lascannon Predator.
Fix Berserkers. Give them axes for free and give their axes Shred. As for Tzeentch psykers, would it be unreasonable for them to generate their Tzeentch power as a free extra? Because seriously, Tzeentch powers suck and there is very little to represent the Changer of Ways' supposed mastery of psychic power.
Veteran of the Long War should be Free for HQ's and Elites units, and +1ppm for the rest.
It would be also better if the LD bonus rather then just a +1 was to reroll failed Pinning, Moral or Fear checks, because you know, they have seen gak in the warp.
After all VotLW should be the chaotic version (if even soemwhat slightly worse) of ATSKNF.
For the Zerkers , has Frozen ocean said, they need a fix, not much though, just a flat +1 on their Profil, because Assault troops with 1 A base, is just moronic to no end.
Also Chainaxes be shred, should be for Heavy chain axes.
They are equiped base with chainaxes has described in the book ( S;User AP4), and then +2ppm for the Heavy chainaxe that give them shred and AP4.
Also the option for the 2 squad members that can takes Plasma pistols, to exchange also their CC weapons for special CCW, power weapons for 10pts, pair of claws for 20 and Eviscerator for 25pts.
I think the Marks have their place and can only work with specific units where it makes sense competitively.
Dont take tzeentch on normal marines, Take it on units that already have exisiting Invul saves (HQS, Daemons, Termis)
Slaneesh is really good on regular marines and decent on bikes
Nurgle is good on everything but the you have to pay the points, the points are fine the way they are.
Khorne is cheap and effective mark for all cc units.
They need to fix Thousands and bezerkers.
Zerkers dont need 2 a base they already have 4 on the charge and furious charge, Shred would a little to powerful i think auto giving them axes could fix the probably of being so bloody expensive but i think the axes are useless anyways the units youll be assaaulting that get affected by ap4 are gonna die regardless based on number of attacks and if they dont you want to be locked in that combat next turn so you can hop to the next one. If you wanna fix zerkers bring back +1 I from furious charge.
Theres too many units that do khorne bezerkers better and cheaper.
as for 1ksons i dunno what to do with them i never use em.
But giving models a 5+invul for 1 / 2 points is absurd esp on models like marines with a 3+ sv
Fix Thousand Sons: 2W, weapons are AP3, can take Heavy Bolters. All Tzeentch sorcerers can roll on any psychic power table, and the Tzeentch spells don't suck.
Fix Noise marines: They're fine.
Fix Plague Marines: They're even more fine.
But Plague Marines, with their Plague Knife, are better in CC than Berserkers beyond the round they charge. On top of that, they're Plague Marines; we all know how good they are at doing other things, like sitting on objectives or using special weapons.
That's why Shred. Because AP4 is useless, and Plague Marines get to re-roll Wounds the vast majority of the time (and ignore higher toughness values). Alternatively, make them I5 on the charge like they used to be, and/or allow them to re-roll charge distances (random charge range hurts a lot more than it helps).
EDIT: 3ppm for a better chance to kill Firewarriors. Yay.
EDIT2: The issue isn't that Berserkers are awful, but that they're neither good enough or interesting enough to make people actually want to take them unless they're running World Eaters. Which is a shame, really, because I loved Berserkers in the previous edition.
@ Frozen Ocean: Point noted about the Heldrake, also like the idea of MoT making Tzeentch powers an extra generation
@ Slayer le boucher: Unsure if it should be free on all HQs... but looking at it now, 5pts is probably a bit much seeming the Ld increase is worthless. Re-roll fear would be useless with 'Horrors in the Warp', and honestly I like the Ld bonus. Maybe I can add the re-roll morale as a Legion Trait for Renegades?
@ Guitarqero: Yes, all marks have their place I suppose... but these days all you see is Nurgle, Nurgle, Nurgle with a splash of Slaanesh here and there for Noise Marines...
@ McNinja: Agreed that PM & NM are fine. Interesting thoughts on Thousand Sons... though AP3? Could be a tad too powerful? Agreed with Heavy Bolter option. Also, Sorcers able to roll on any table was my plan for TSons Legion Traits
@ Selym: Agreed Princes need a fix, don't think allowing them access to marks is the way to got, though. I was thinking just giving them Eternal Warrior back (or maybe as an upgrade) as well as a points decrease.
@ Everyone: 'Zerkers are one of the Cult Troops I was thinking about. And, yes, I planning Chainaxes as standard, too . Shred on all is a bit much (makes the new MoK useless) and they already gain +1 A from the new mark, too. However, would giving them Rage, Counter Attack or some Assault-out-of-Vehicles rule be a good idea? Re-roll charge distances make the icon useless, something I don't want to do (I like the Khorne icon as it is). Bringing +1 I form Furious Charge could work, I suppose. Like the idea for Melee weapons option, and the idea for Heavy Chainaxes.
Still working on Legion Traits, currently. Got basic ideas down for most of them, just refining them so they aren't OP/UP.
Just for fluff, the heavy chainaxe could be similar to the Excoriator chainaxes of Forge World's World Eater Rampagers, which would make them two-handed, also.
Brometheus wrote: I don't understand everyone's obsession with Heavy Bolters on Tsons.
The fix to make Tsons better is not to give them access to special/heavy weapons because they are overcosted. The fix is to drop their points.
It's slightly more than that -
The Rubrics are built to want to be elite hitmen, but they're better off sitting back and waiting for some MEQ's to forget about the whole AP3 thing and meet them.
And then they get cheapo cannon fodder sent at them, making the Rubrics utterly pointless.
A better fix would involve tweaking their resistance to small-arms fire (Maybe giving them DoT, others have suggested +1W), and then allowing the Sorc to choose his powers from any Psy table, as the Tzeentch powers are effing useless.
Also because Tzeentch is supposed to be the Chaos God of shooting and psychic power, in contrast to the melee of Khorne, the toughness of Nurgle, and the speed of Slaanesh. They are supposed to represent four sets of gameplay mechanics!
Instead, we have Nurgle beating out Khorne in melee, and Slaanesh out-shooting Tzeentch!
EDIT: Actually, everyone apart from Khorne out-shoots Tzeentch at this point (as well as everyone apart from Khorne out-psychicking Tzeentch), if you include special and heavy weapons. Even Undivided!
For 140pts, you can get a 10-man CSM squad with a plasma gun. For an additional 10-20pts, you can get Heavy Bolter/Autocannon or Missile Launcher/another Plasma Gun. That's about the cost of 5 Sons. I'm ignoring flamers.
140pts
9 Bolters, 1 Plasma Gun
or
8 Bolters, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Additional Heavy Weapon or Plasma Gun.
vs
150pts
4 AP3 bolters
1 Crap Tzeentch Psychic Power
Aura of Dark Glory + Mark of Tzeentch but half as many models (and therefore, half as many wounds).
Yeah, the Cult Troops are kinda skewed when it comes to game play.
While I am mainly focusing on Legion Traits currently, I can't help but think about cult troops and how to fix them a bit...
TSons:
Spoiler:
Aspiring Sorcerer can chose power from Pyro & Telepathy (& Tz if I don't go along the route of Tz lore being an extra generated power)
Inferno making Bolt Weapons AP3 and Ignores Cover
+1 W or cheaper
Zerkers:
Spoiler:
Berzerk Charge: Furious Charge, +1 I on the Charge
Axes standard
Maybe rage if necessary (don't think it is though)
Not going to give them +1 attack directly (remember my version of MoK has the old +1 A, not the Rage/Counter Attack combo)
Also, with the Champion of Chaos rule, I was thinking of making it so they only HAVE to Issue/Accept on a failed leadership test, sound good?
With that in mind, here are the basic, more refined concepts for a few of the Legion Traits:
Red Corsairs:
Spoiler:
Anarchy and Piracy Gains Hit & Run.
The Strongest Remain Strong Alone Gain Stubborn. May re-roll failed Pinning tests.
Renegades:
Spoiler:
Beneath the Gods Characters may re-roll the failed leadership test to see if they must issue/accept challenges.
Into the Darkness May re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests.
World Eaters:
Spoiler:
Blood for the Blood God! Must take MoK. Gains Furious Charge. Characters gain an extra D3+1 Attacks in a Challenge. Bezerkers may be taken as troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Emperor’s Children:
Spoiler:
Perfection and Ecstasy Must take MoS. Gains Fleet. Characters gain the Rending special rule while in a challenge. Noise Marines are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Still unsure for Death Guard...
Need something else for Thousand Sons, but I've (pretty much) decided on the rest so far:
Spoiler:
Forbidden Sorcery Must take MoT. Psyker may roll their powers from any of the BRB Disciplines. Characters may take +1 Mastery level for 25pts (maximum of 3). Characters may re-roll failed Invulnerable and armour saves while in a challenge. Thousand Sons are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Night Lords:
Spoiler:
Fear Incarnate Gains Night Vision and Fear. If primary detachment, Night Fighting always occurs on the First Turn. Raptors are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
From here, the rest are still too OP/UP (at least, that's what I think) or just don't feel right... (Iron Warriors)
But, here they are:
Alpha Legion:
Spoiler:
Sons of Alpharius Gains Infiltrate. Characters have 2+ LoS. If Primary Detachment, Seize Initiative on 4+, and enemy cannot gain ‘Slay the Warlord’ (?)
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Iron Warriors:
Spoiler:
Iron Within, Iron Without Gains Tank Hunter. May take 0-3 Warpsmiths per Iron Warriors detachment. Havocs are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Word Bearers:
Spoiler:
Gift of the Gods All units roll on the Chaos Boon chart (roll for Independent Characters separately) before deployment. Characters gain Zealot. Dark Apostles have +1 W, WS & A. Possessed are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Black Legion:
Spoiler:
Death to the False Emperor Gains Crusader. Characters may re-roll failed to-wound rolls in Challenges. Chosen are Troops.
Tson/as get +1 wound Keep their 4++ but lose the ap3 bolters. Dropped to 20 ppm These guys are not suppose to be MEQ killers, they are a meatshield for the sorc leading them
Base squad is now 120 pts (4 ts 1 as)
Option
May add up to 15 thousand sons at 20pts/Model
For ever 9 models in the squad 1 thousand son maybe upgraded to a aspiring sorcerer for +20 pts
Any Aspiring sorcerer may buy up to one additional mastery level at 10 points
The entire unit maybe upgraded with terminator armor at 18 ppm
Units with Mot may choose their their psychic powers from the pyromancy and tzeentch disciplines, (if they choose biomancy and telepathy they have to Determine randomly)
Maybe make mot give
+1 wound and +1mastery level on models with the character subtype (so a mot sorc would start with 3 wounds and ml 2 with the ability to go to ml 4), and a just +1 invul for everything else
Heldrake-wise, thinking increasing it to 180pts and making the Baleflamer a 20-30pt upgrade?
if anything a Autocannon heldrake should cost less than it currently does. 4 shots that are likely to miss, arent terrible good at killing tanks, and arent terrible good at killing infantry. No one takes the autocannon drake because they are bad.
Marks: Khorne
Models with Mark of Khorne have +1 Attack and the Preferred Enemy special rule.
PE is really powerful.
In shooting, it changes your chance to hit from 66% to 77%, giving you 16% more firepower before you take into account rerolling to wound
It makes it almost impossible to hurt yourself with a plasmagun.
It transfers from a character to a unit.
It would make MoK the default choice for Havocs and other shooting units.
I would suggest toning it down. The simplest ways of the top of my head:
1) PE in combat, no bonus in shooting
2) Models with MoK and hatred reroll their combat to hit rolls every round, not just the first round.
We should also find a way to fix warp talons, i also agree that heldrakes should go up in points when buying the baleflamer. I like your marks, and the night lord stuff keep up the good work.
@ Frozen Ocean: Yes, but it is only for 4 legions, and they are dedicated to one God.
@ Ninjacommando: I don't quite agree with some things (extra sorcerers, termi armour) nor allowing lvl 3 aspiring sorcerers in a squad for everyone (stacked with your version of MoT + lvl upgrade) How about this, Inferno Bolts give Ignores Cover as standard. The unit can then be upgraded with Sorcerous bolts for AP3?
@ Exergy: Ehh, I suppose I see what you mean about Hade-Drakes. I wanted to make MoK more useful for shooty units. I do see where you are going about it being a bit too powerful, though. Still not convinced, however. Worse case, I make it cost more for Havocs,
@ Slayer222: Thanks for the kind words! Yep, Warp Talons are also part of the long fixing list. Aside from grenades (or similar ability) and a points-decrease, is there anything else that should be done to them?
@ Matt, Squad Aspiring champions are only ment to go up to ML 2 (kind of like how it says in the codex "X is already included in the units profile).
keeping the restrctions of 1 power from the tzeentch table (you get to pick) and one from pyro (you choose), tele (you roll), or Bio (you roll) Would make them stronger than they are now.
ATM you are paying 65 points for a ML 1 psyker that doesnt do gak
Rubric marines are suppose to be meatshields, they are empty shells. Thousand sons do not need AP 3 bolters ever regular CSM do a better job at killing MEQ with bolters only (seeing as every MEq unit camps cover) point for point.
Every Cult/Legion troop is suppose to be unique,
Zerkers = Assaulting stuff (need to be buffed to be better at it)
Noise = assaulting stuff or Blowing stuff away with Salvo weapons (good where they are) (do what Tsons do but better)
Plague = Being tough and having 2 special weapons (great unit) (do what Tsons do but better)
ATM Tsons = ap 3 bolters and a crap sorc (hellturkey does everything you do only 1000x better)
having Tsons changed to = Tought meatshield Sorc delivery Squad, actually makes them feel unique. (no longer trying to do what a hellturkey does, now they are for the people who want to play the Sorc Army, like Tsons is suppose to be)
Terminator armor is a throw back from 3.5 codex and from fluff. If you werent a psychic you became dust. (its also an incentive for people to field 2 wound, 4++ termies that only cost 38ppm.)
Also ment to tack on
The entire unit maybe upgraded with terminator armor at 18 ppm - units upgraded this way will always be taken as elite choice
If you wanted to play renegades spacemarines that are devoted to Tzeetnch, you get regualr CSM squads (with the champion becoming a ML 1 psyker) or cultists (with the champion becoming an ML 1 pskyer)
and that one power they can choose would be from Tzeetnch table.
@ Ninjacommando: Ah, ok. That's better than. (However my TSons legion Trait could bring that up to 3...)
Also, your version of MoT would cost 35points for Characters (+10 for extra wound, +25 for additional mastery level)
Honestly, Aspiring Sorcerers should cost 60-65 pts, +15 for force weapon, +25 for mastery level. Normal Tz marine SHOULD cost 20ish pts.
I see where you are going now with the Termi Amour, however every cult troop could have the same argument.
So if I do add the termi armour option, I'll do it for ALL cult troops.
I suggested changing stock AP3 to an upgrade for those that DO want AP3 bolters, while those that don't can be content without them.
Also, I've pretty much decided that MoT will (in addition to the ++ save) make psykers generate an extra power from lore of Tz (ML1 will have 2 powers, 1 of which is Tz, ML2 will have 3 powers, 1 from Tz etc.) Though should I make it so they can also choose to use Tz as their base lore? ML3 knowing all Tz powers!
The Force weapons and mastery level mean nothing on a Aspiring sorceror atm.
you pay 65 points for a Guy thats not suppose to be in melee and has a random power from a Gak tree.
5 points for MOT would be fine across the board. (even with the +1 ML and wound for characters) because you have to pay for the squad, if you want to take MSU to get more psykers on the field go for it, just makes them easier to remove.
Another reason for the + 1 ML.. why do Sorcs of Slaanesh and Nurgle get the same ML as a Sorc of Tzeentch? you know the god of change/sorcery/hope ETC.
Paying 50 ppm (4o ppm fora 2wound ml 1 and then 10 more for the ML upgrade) for a ml 2 2 wound sorc is a fair price
This is an edition where AP3/2 weapons are spammed on every list and lists that don't spam them spam high Str shots out the wazoo.
The AP 3 bolters would still server no purpose and be an unused upgrade :/ let the sorcs do the blasting,
Allowing a model with MOT to Choose a power from Tzeentch/Pyro (with the requirement that 1 power always has to be from the Tzeentch tree) and then making them roll if they choose Bio/Tele would be fine.
All cult troops should have the option to take Terminator armour (but then they retain the elite spot), (Think of noise marines upgraded to Terminators each with a sonic blaster and a power weapon)
You may not like the idea of AP3 bolters (tbh, I don't overly care about them either) but it is nice to have options.
5 points would NOT be fine for ICs. for infantry, yes, but not ICs.
1 mastery level is NOT worth 10 pts. Every book has it as 25pts. Force weapon may go unused 99/100 times, but they still have it. I'm inclined to make it an upgrade, though. (Again, next to no one would take it, but options are good)
Cherry picking powers, even from 2 terrible lores, does seem like a good idea.
Point taken for lvl 4 psykers, but I don't think MoT is the way to go for that.
Anyway, I'll probably be adjusting the chaos lores anyway.
Ninjacommando wrote: Thousand sons ... are not suppose to be MEQ killers, they are a meatshield for the sorc leading them
Thiiiiis. They're animated suits of armour, but the most defining feature on the tabletop is a random ability to shoot AP3 bullets?
I'd prefer a re-worked version of their older rules;
~Living Metal: When attacking Thousand Sons, use the weapons AP value rather than it's strength to determine it's to-wound roll. For instance, a weapon with AP3 would wound on a 3+, while a weapon with AP - cannot hurt them. Apply the AP value against their armour save as per usual.
Eldar ATM pay less per mastery level than any other army
25 points gets you +1 ws, bs, w, ld, and a mastery level
And access to the telepathy tree,
30 more points (55) gets you + 1 wound, ld, mastery level divination and a ghost helm.
What eldar get for 100 points
Costs chaos 115 points but chaos has to roll on a crap tree
at 115 for the farseer you now have a jetbike character flying across the board being useful ( and the farseer still has the one wound over the sorc)
@ Dakkamite: So, basically the opposite of Grav Weapons? Sounds cool! However ap- doing nothing is a bit too good... I'd rework it to AP - & 6 means a 6+ to wound and AP 1 & 2 means a 2+ to wound. If I went down this path I probably wouldn't give them an extra wound, though.
@ Ninjacommando: Eldar are the (OP) exception, not the norm. Bringing Sorcerers in line with Farseers would do the opposite of what I want...
Ok, then, I've thought about Tsons a bit more and I'm thinking of going down the AP=wound roll route. If I do indeed go down this route then the Legion Trait for Tsons will give everyone this rule.
Was thinking about maybe adding an ability similar to channeling in fantasy for the TSons legion trait, but I'm unsure if I should.
So, how's this?
Legion of Dust
Spoiler:
The warriors of the Thousand Sons Legion are implacable foes, little more than animated suits of armour. They are far more durable than the Chaos Space Marines of their brother legions - a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect. The roll required To Wound when attacking a model with the Legion of Dust special rule is always equal to the AP of the weapon firing to a minimum of a 6+ and a maximum of a 2+. The weapon's strength is still used to determine Instant Death.
This way, they are more resilient to small firearms while still having a similar resilience against most AP 1-3 weapons (though they are a bit weaker to a few, like power weapons but oh well)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Ok, then, I've thought about Tsons a bit more and I'm thinking of going down the AP=wound roll route. If I do indeed go down this route then the Legion Trait for Tsons will give everyone this rule.
Was thinking about maybe adding an ability similar to channeling in fantasy for the TSons legion trait, but I'm unsure if I should.
So, how's this?
Legion of Dust
Spoiler:
The warriors of the Thousand Sons Legion are implacable foes, little more than animated suits of armour. They are far more durable than the Chaos Space Marines of their brother legions - a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect. The roll required needed To Wound when attacking a model with the Legion of Dust special rule is always equal to the AP of the weapon firing to a minimum of a 6+ and a maximum of a 2+. The weapon's strength is still used to determine Instant Death.
This way, they are more resilient to small firearms while still having a similar resilience against most AP 1-3 weapons (though they are a bit weaker to a few, like power weapons but oh well)
Well, first post has been updated with (almost) all the stuff so far, including the stuff here! (TSon Legion Trait has been updated with LoD, and added the w/o Termi for the future)
Worked on the Death Guard legion trait:
Spoiler:
Plague and Putrescence Must take MoN. Models are I3 but gain Feel No Pain. Characters gain the Posion (4+) special rule while in challenges. Plague Marines without Terminator Armour are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Also worked on Daemonic Possession:
Spoiler:
The vehicle's Ballistic Skill is reduced to 3. It ignores the effects of Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results on a roll of a 2+. Embarked units are still effects by these results. The vehicle also gains the Daemon special rule. Roll a D6 each time a unit embarks if the vehicle does not have its full number of hull points. On a roll of a 1, a randomly chosen model from the unit is consumed - remove that model as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed. The vehicle then recovers one hull point lost earlier in the battle.
AND, taking inspiration from the Decimator, made these Dedication of Chaos (only one that remained the same as the Decimator version is Nurgle, the rest have minor changes or a complete re-write) Also, these may only be purchased for vehicles with Daemonic Possession. (Seem Fair?)
Khorne.......15pts:
Spoiler:
Vehicle gains the Assault Vehicle special rule. Additionally, it gains the Preferred Enemy special rule against all enemies within 24"
Slaanesh.......15pts:
Spoiler:
Vehicle gains the Fast type. Additionally, the vehicle does not suffer the penalty to its Initiative for charging enemies through cover and models charging the vehicle do not gain the bonus Attacks for charging.
Nurgle......25pts:
Spoiler:
The Vehicle gains It Will Not Die. If it already has It Will Not Die, then the dice roll required is improved by 1.
Tzeentch......20pts:
Spoiler:
The vehicle may re-roll all To-Hit rolls of a 1 with its shooting attacks, and gains +1 Invulnerable Save.
STILL unsure on Word Bearer and Iron Warrior Legion Traits, so any help there is appreciated! Does all this look good so far? Too much/not enough?
Thanks for looking! M.K
EDIT: Almost forgot! While I still don't think PE is too powerful for MoK, I've come up with an alternate version, thoughts? MoK:
Spoiler:
Gains +1 Attack. Additionaly, gain the Preferred Enemy special rule against all enemy units within 18"
18" could be changed to 12", but I don't think that's necessary.
The Heldrake should really have its Hades Autocannon twin-linked. That way it can actually hit something.
Also about Slaaneshi vehicles - Why not simply give them fast? That will allow them to move around more freely, and one can actually move the Predator around without losing all it's shots to snap shots. Assault vehicle is more of a Khorne thing if you ask me.
Yeah, was thinking about fast, will probably do that.
Also decided to go with the alternate MoK, going to change the vehicle dedication to bring it in line with the change.
I've had an idea on how I want ed to improve this for while now (must pass a Ld test or be forced to issue/accept challenges) but I've been having trouble with the wording...
Hopefully it is clear and makes sense.
Champion of Chaos
Spoiler:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any challengers are issued, a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule must take a Leadership test. If the model passes, it may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, it must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.
If multiple friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule a participating in the same combat, even if they are part of different units, do not roll individually for each character. Instead, roll one Leadership test with the lowest leadership value amongst all friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule in the same combat. If the test is passed, they may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, one of the Champions of Chaos (you chose) must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.
If a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule slays an enemy character, roll on the Chaos Boon Table.
I was also thinking of adding Rage and Rampage to the Khorne Vehicle dedication... though that is probably too much with PE... I don't really want to remove PE though other wise it would be useless to ranged vehicles, and I want to make Khorne more useful to ranged units (he cares not how the blood flows, only that it does, unless cowardly sorcery is used).
Additionally, I was thinking of changing the IW trait from Tank Hunters, 0-3 Warpsmiths, Havoc Troops to +1 to all armour penetrations rolls, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Defilers (& maybe Vindicators?) as Elites, Characters may take Mechatendrils. Would that be acceptable/good? (Far from an expect on IW, hardly know anything about them accept that they are siege experts and have Warsmiths)
Next up in the update will probably be Warlord Traits and the Chaos Boon Table...
Champion of Chaos At the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any challengers are issued, a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule must take a Leadership test. If the model passes, it may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, it must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.
If multiple friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule a participating in the same combat, even if they are part of different units, do not roll individually for each character. Instead, roll one Leadership test with the lowest leadership value amongst all friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule in the same combat. If the test is passed, they may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, one of the Champions of Chaos (you chose) must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.
If a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule slays an enemy character, roll on the Chaos Boon Table.
Concerning iron warriors, giving vehicles an invuln save does not sound like a bad idea, lore-wise the legion is based around sturdy siege weaponry.
additionally, reducing the armor value / save value of fortifications by 1 from vehicles fits their army, not sure if these two in conjunction would work well though. It would make them have a more tau sorta feel: sit back and shoot everything...
I personnaly think that Champion of Chaos still lack something.
The LD test is something good, leaving a change to make a decision on your own, and not being forced to it.
But when you think about even so, Champiosn are supposed to constantly fight amongst each others to proof their might and dedication to their Gods, and try to get their favors, yet, they arn't better then an SM in duel...
They need something to reflect this, a bit like Black Templars Sarges and IC gains rerolls and Rending.
Now simply giving them rerolls to hit and Rending could be enough, but maybe something else i dunno...
Also modifying it so that the chars and Champion get to roll after they killed a MC or a Walker(in duel or not), after all having a Soldier destroy/defeat something this huge and strong is worthy of the Gods attention.
For Iron Warriors...
Masters of SIege; all models from the detachement gains the Tank Hunter rule, units with the Masters of Siege rule also reroll Penetration rolls that din't give a Penetrating Hit Versus Buildings and Fortifications.
"Unleash the Iron!" ; In a Iron Warrior Detachement, Walkers with a maximum of 3HP, can be taken has Elites choices AND/OR Heavy Support choices.
" Dark Messiah of the Machines"; Characters of an IW detachement can purchase the Mecatendrils upgrade for +15pts.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Well +1WS isn't that interessting...well Vs WS4 models you get a +1 to hit, but thats it, you don't get much from it.
Maybe give them prefered ennemy.
Could work.
Or we could give them something like:
Slayer of the Dark Gods:
When in a challenge, any Chaos Marine Character (not a cultist character) may re roll one to-hit dice and one to-wound dice. If a Chaos Marine character would cause instant death, but the instant death is prevented by a special rule or item of equipment the receiving model has (such as Eternal Warrior or Adamantium Skull), the wound instead causes two wounds, rather than one.
That may need to be an upgrade for a moderate cost (5-15 pts).
Just saying, taking the last thing us Templars players have to cling to as "our own" and porting it to Chaos would be rather aggravating, at least for me. There's precious little point in playing Templars as is, giving the defining special rule to Chaos would be a kick in the nuts.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just saying, taking the last thing us Templars players have to cling to as "our own" and porting it to Chaos would be rather aggravating, at least for me. There's precious little point in playing Templars as is, giving the defining special rule to Chaos would be a kick in the nuts.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just saying, taking the last thing us Templars players have to cling to as "our own" and porting it to Chaos would be rather aggravating, at least for me. There's precious little point in playing Templars as is, giving the defining special rule to Chaos would be a kick in the nuts.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just saying, taking the last thing us Templars players have to cling to as "our own" and porting it to Chaos would be rather aggravating, at least for me. There's precious little point in playing Templars as is, giving the defining special rule to Chaos would be a kick in the nuts.
Stormravens, TH.SS termies, Apoticharies, Cm with frakin orbital bombardement, Grav guns, Bikes has troops, PotMS, Centurions with 12 Grav shots and rerolls.
Plus the Duels thing was only for the Champ, not the whole army, and then again, giving Rending and Rerolls to all the Sergeant is a bit ridiculous, you litteraly have Mini-Chaplains in each freakin squads, while we, we die before even getting a chance to make a freakin roll on the Boons table, talk about awesome rules...
So having something similar, while not really emulating it, isn't aggravating, its just how things ought to be.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Stormravens, TH.SS termies, Apoticharies, Cm with frakin orbital bombardement, Grav guns, Bikes has troops, PotMS, Centurions with 12 Grav shots and rerolls.
Plague Marines, Juggerlords, Psykers, Abaddon, Spawn, Noise Marines, Cultists, Obliterators, Daemon Weapons, and above all else not folded into a Codex with a focus on completely different tactics.
Let's be honest, if you wanted to play with anything from the list you mentioned other than Chapter Masters and possibly TH/SS Terminators, why would you ever pick Chapter Tactics: Black Templars? You pick it because you want to play melee, not because you want to play something that's worse than it could be. It's not like Fateweaver counts in favour of CSM. Sure, it's not in the same Codex, but it's more or less the same anyway. Imagine if the Chaos Marks applied to your army instead of per unit. Would you count anything for anyone not playing Death Guard, who'd get T5 on everything?
And I'd gladly trade my "mini-Chaplains", as you put it, that only work in Challenges, for Mark of Khorne, or really anything that'll help my Marines actually do something in CC.
Wouldn't a better solution be to fix the boon table? Throw out stuff like +1BS, let ICs either resist turning into Daemons or at least let them keep their Special Rules and gear, cut out a lot of the rubbish rules (lolfear). If the boon table didn't have so many results, but was something like:
Another option (which can be combined with changing the table) is to simply let every Champion choose to upgrade either WS, S or A by 1 at the start of the game.
And for the record, I don't agree with "normal" Champions being better than SM Sergeants. What the Champion gains in slight experience they lose in discipline and camraderie. Champions in cult troops squads, on the other hand, ought to be better than they are.
I love this, especially the Legion of Dust rule. Very elegant solution to the Rubric Marines problem! My only issue is that the Thousand Sons trait shouldn't confer Legion of Dust to the sorcerers.
How about: "All non-character infantry have the Legion of Dust special rule."
Now modify Legion of Dust:
"The roll required To Wound when attacking a model with the Legion of Dust special rule, or a unit where the majority of models have the Legion of Dust special rule, is always equal to the AP of the weapon firing to a minimum of a 6+ and a maximum of a 2+. The weapon's strength is still used to determine Instant Death."
It's functionally the same in most cases, but in challenges or when characters are alone, they won't be any tougher than they should be.
@ CalgarsPimpHand: Done! Agreed that it's unfuffy for the characters to have it, don't know why I gave it to them in the first place...
@ Isbjornen: I like that, "Legacy of the Legions", definitely fits.
Ok, Chaos Boons... I had the idea of splitting it into 2 tables, "Powers" and "Mutations"
Basically, whenever you gain a Boon you choose 1 of the 2 tables and roll a 2D6 on it. I was thinking of the following for the tables:
Powers A model may not benefit from the same power twice. If they roll a power they already have, you may re-roll the result. Otherwise, you gain no added effect.
Spoiler:
2. Spawnhood This Champion has been given to many rewards for his body to handle, being transformed into a nightmarish creature instead! The model must take a toughness test. If he fails he suffers a single wound with no saves allowed. If the model would be removed as a causality as a result, instead replace it with a Chaps Spawn. If the Chaos Spawn can not be placed for any reason, then the model is removed as a casualty. The model only counts as killed if this Chaos Spawn is removed as a casualty. The model is now a separate, unengaged, non-scoring unit that retains none of the model's special rules or wargear, excepting it Mark of Chaos and any previous Powers or Mutations it had. If the model was your Warlord, this Chaos Spawn remains your Warlord but loses his Warlord Trait.
3. Witch-eater Warp-spawned powers and their practitioners have no dominion over this champion. When the model or his unit pass a Deny the Witch roll, the enemy Psyker immediately takes a S6 AP2 hit.
4. Icy Aura The champion's body exudes a deathly chill. All enemy models in base contact with the model suffer -1 Initiative. Additionally, all enemy models in base contact at the end of Initiative Step 1 take a Str 3, AP6 hit.
5. Blade of Chaos The champion's favoured weapon is infused with the raw power of the Warp. Choose one of the model's weapons - it now has the Fleshbane special rule.
6. Temporal Distortion Time is altered around the champion. The model has the Fleet special rule
7. Cosmic Fate The champion has a touch of destiny upon him. The model may re-roll failed armour saves
8. Lifetaker The champion's aura ages his foes. The model's Melee attacks have the Instant Death special rule.
9. Shield of Force The Dark gods protect their champion. The model gain the Shrouded special rule.
10. Fragment of Immortality The champion cheats Death. The model has Eternal Warrior.
11. Infinite Power This champion deserves more for his acts than his fellows... Roll another D3+1 times on this table, re-rolling Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis results.
12. Dark Apotheosis This champion has been granted the highest reward, Daemonhood! the model is transformed into a Daemon Prince. He keeps all his wargear and special rules except any Marks of Chaos he may have had. If he had a Mark of Chaos, he is now a Daemon of the same god. Additionally, if he was your Warlord, this Daemon Prince now is, retaining his Warlord Trait.
Mutations A model may benefit from the same Mutation more than once. Whenever a model rolls the same mutation more than twice, however, he also suffers Spawnhood in addition to the mutation.
Spoiler:
2. Minor Mutation This champion has been gifted with a trivial mutation, an second spleen, an extra toe or similar. No Effect
3. Additional Limb The champion grows an additional limb! The model gains +1 Attack
4. Fiendish Strength Power flows through the champion. The model gains +1 Strength
5. Arcane Occulum A blood-shot eye pushes through his flesh. The model gains +1 Ballistic Skill
6. Ichor Whatever runs through the champion's veins, it most certainly isn't blood... The model has the Ichor Blood Chaos Reward. If they already have Ichor Blood, then it's Strength is improved by 1, to a maximum of 6
7. Venomous The champion's very touch is toxic. The model Melee attacks have the Poisoned special rule. If the model already has the Poisoned special rule, then it is improved by 1.
8. Leathery Hide The champion's skin is harder to penetrate. The model gains +1 Toughness.
9. Flesharmour The champion's flesh bonds with his armour. The model's armour save is improved by 1
10. Bloated The champion's flesh bulges out in clammy rolls. The model is returned to full wounds. If he already has full wounds, he now has +1 Wound.
11. Warp-spawned Heart The champion grows a withered heart in his chest... The model gains the It Will Not Die! special rule.
12. Multiple Mutations! This champion deserves more for his acts than his fellows... Roll another D3+1 times on this table. If you roll Multiple Mutations again, the model suffers Spawnhood. However, they still gain the effects of any other Mutation results.
Why can't the Daemon Prince keep the wargear? It's a bit silly if someone like Khârn gets turned into a Daemon Prince and as a result gets WORSE at killing people.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Why can't the Daemon Prince keep the wargear? It's a bit silly if someone like Khârn gets turned into a Daemon Prince and as a result gets WORSE at killing people.
Rule it so that named Chars cannot become a DP or spawn?
Because there's no way in hell that Nurgle is going to give up Typhus.
Or Khorne give up Kharn.
And if Slaanesh turned Lucius into a spawn, Lucius would become Slaanesh...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, I was planning to make it so Special Characters couldn't be transformed, always bugged me that they could!
Also, why would they be able to keep the wargear? It would be too small for them to use!
EDIT: Just realised I'm missing the 5th option on both charts, need to fix that.
To be fair, Gorechild was Angron's handaxe. I do not doubt that Daemon Prince-Khârn could use it as well... And same thing with certain rather large weapons that CSM use.
And for the record, I don't agree with "normal" Champions being better than SM Sergeants. What the Champion gains in slight experience they lose in discipline and camraderie. Champions in cult troops squads, on the other hand, ought to be better than they are.
Champions keep their warbands together through fear and intimidation, if necessary they have to kill any challengers from their own ranks. They should absolutely be above sergeant. Cult troop champions and normal CSM champions perform exactly the same role.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, I was planning to make it so Special Characters couldn't be transformed, always bugged me that they could!
Also, why would they be able to keep the wargear? It would be too small for them to use!
EDIT: Just realised I'm missing the 5th option on both charts, need to fix that.
Because deamon prince are still Champions, and that for their whole life and for their whole new Deamon life, they sought after artifacts to make them more powerfull.
So having a Axe Lord that just throw away a deamon Weapon because he change in a Deamon prince, there is the thing that doesn't make any sens.
Now you could argue that in the case of some that would make them too powerfull, and then i will point you to Sm Chapter Masters, who can be on a bike, with an Eternal Shield and a Blazing Blade, between the DP and the CM, wich is more dangerous?..., yup you guessed right, the CM makes little french fries with the DP, and that doesn't make any sens at all.
So Having a Deamon Kharn(for exemple), that the only thing that the deamonification would bring to him is a Higher T and Init isn't that much worse, you've got even worse for being a Dprince, you are still not a EW model, you loose the MoK to become a Deamon of Khorne, wich is the lamest upgrade for a Deamon and you are a footslogging MC that can move 6" each turn, but can't be in a bodyguard unit, and so can be taken target by every single ranged weapons that has a 24" range.
Also really?, arguing about the size of the weapons and wargear when a Marine turned ina freakin Giant with horns and that his armore fused with his body?
His gear simply will mutate along with him.
A good exemple why this is stupid is that in fantasy a Lord or Champion that turns into a DPrince keep ALL his wargear, rules, spells and Mastery lvls, now yes he counts as a casualty , but i honestly think that this is a small price for Deamonhood.
Also something that doesn't make sens, being turned into a DeamonPrince is supposed to be your God greatest reward, so why kharn( again first example that comes to mind) would loose the Blessing of the Blood God?...
he gets Blessed by the Blood God for being his greatest Champion and Killer, to be only topped by the Skulltaker( in fluff at leats, in rulls the Skulltaker sucks), Doombreed and Angron, but when being given the highest reward he loose his Lord Blessing?...
Its like giving a SM the opportunity to get a direct reward from the Emperor, but he loose ATSKNF rule..., does it make any sens to you?
Now yes the easiest way would be to simply add a rule to special IC's something like " Dark Destiny; the Chaos gods have plans for this individual, his time for Deamonhood hasn't come yet; the character must ignore and reroll the Dark Apotheosis result on the chaos Boons chart".
But then the problem would still be the same for Lords and Sorcerors anyway.
@ Everyone: Well, I suppose there's no point in me trying to resist. I still don't agree, but I'll make it so DPs keep all previous wargear and rules...
@ BrotherHaraldus: tbh, I hadn't really thought too much about Icons. One thing I have decided on is giving them back the no-scatter DS bubble. Thinking of bringing personal icons back, too.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: @ Everyone: Well, I suppose there's no point in me trying to resist. I still don't agree, but I'll make it so DPs keep all previous wargear and rules...
@ BrotherHaraldus: tbh, I hadn't really thought too much about Icons. One thing I have decided on is giving them back the no-scatter DS bubble. Thinking of bringing personal icons back, too.
Not all wargear and rules. Let them choose to keep a weapon if they wish.
Or I don't know, actually. Just giving them Wings would maybe solve it.
The issue with icons is that, well... They are often bad. Fear is commonly useless while Soul Blaze is very, very weak.
The 2 Icons that really need a change are Nurgle and tzeentch...
Nurgle could be Stealth for the Flies that buzz around, or better FnP...
Tzeentch its always hard to find the right thing...
Maybe Psykers in a unit with a Tzeentch Icon reroll failed Psy test or gets an extra Warp charge, while non-psyker models gets to reroll ONE dice in each phase per unit, urgh dunno..;doesn't seems to make much sens...
or maybe make the icon count has a Psychic Hood?...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, I was planning to make it so Special Characters couldn't be transformed, always bugged me that they could!
Also, why would they be able to keep the wargear? It would be too small for them to use!
EDIT: Just realised I'm missing the 5th option on both charts, need to fix that.
Because deamon prince are still Champions, and that for their whole life and for their whole new Deamon life, they sought after artifacts to make them more powerfull.
So having a Axe Lord that just throw away a deamon Weapon because he change in a Deamon prince, there is the thing that doesn't make any sens.
Now you could argue that in the case of some that would make them too powerfull, and then i will point you to Sm Chapter Masters, who can be on a bike, with an Eternal Shield and a Blazing Blade, between the DP and the CM, wich is more dangerous?..., yup you guessed right, the CM makes little french fries with the DP, and that doesn't make any sens at all.
So Having a Deamon Kharn(for exemple), that the only thing that the deamonification would bring to him is a Higher T and Init isn't that much worse, you've got even worse for being a Dprince, you are still not a EW model, you loose the MoK to become a Deamon of Khorne, wich is the lamest upgrade for a Deamon and you are a footslogging MC that can move 6" each turn, but can't be in a bodyguard unit, and so can be taken target by every single ranged weapons that has a 24" range.
Also really?, arguing about the size of the weapons and wargear when a Marine turned ina freakin Giant with horns and that his armore fused with his body?
His gear simply will mutate along with him.
A good exemple why this is stupid is that in fantasy a Lord or Champion that turns into a DPrince keep ALL his wargear, rules, spells and Mastery lvls, now yes he counts as a casualty , but i honestly think that this is a small price for Deamonhood.
Also something that doesn't make sens, being turned into a DeamonPrince is supposed to be your God greatest reward, so why kharn( again first example that comes to mind) would loose the Blessing of the Blood God?...
he gets Blessed by the Blood God for being his greatest Champion and Killer, to be only topped by the Skulltaker( in fluff at leats, in rulls the Skulltaker sucks), Doombreed and Angron, but when being given the highest reward he loose his Lord Blessing?...
Its like giving a SM the opportunity to get a direct reward from the Emperor, but he loose ATSKNF rule..., does it make any sens to you?
Now yes the easiest way would be to simply add a rule to special IC's something like " Dark Destiny; the Chaos gods have plans for this individual, his time for Deamonhood hasn't come yet; the character must ignore and reroll the Dark Apotheosis result on the chaos Boons chart".
But then the problem would still be the same for Lords and Sorcerors anyway.
The shorter argument is that the chaos artefacts can currently be taken by a DP and/or a CL. So scale/power is not really an issue to bother with.
And for the record, I don't agree with "normal" Champions being better than SM Sergeants. What the Champion gains in slight experience they lose in discipline and camraderie. Champions in cult troops squads, on the other hand, ought to be better than they are.
Champions keep their warbands together through fear and intimidation, if necessary they have to kill any challengers from their own ranks. They should absolutely be above sergeant. Cult troop champions and normal CSM champions perform exactly the same role.
And Veteran Sergeants are good enough to get into the 1st Company of their Chapter. They're good enough to be a Vanguard or Sternguard Veteran. They're the best of the best in the Chapter apart from the Chapter Command itself.
The reason I felt that Cult Champions ought to be better is because they're essentially "Chosen", in that they're the Champion of their God and obviously further along their path than a "normal" Champion. As such, they'll already have recieved some minor boons from their patron, not enough to appear on the Boon Table but enough to give them an edge.
Yeah, now I feel silly for forgetting to mention them.
And Chaos Terminator Champions!
Why them though? They've managed to get their hands on Terminator Armour, but that doesn't mean they are better than anyone else, unlike the Loyalist counterparts who only hand it out to the best.
Yeah, now I feel silly for forgetting to mention them.
And Chaos Terminator Champions!
Why them though? They've managed to get their hands on Terminator Armour, but that doesn't mean they are better than anyone else, unlike the Loyalist counterparts who only hand it out to the best.
It means that they've beaten another terminator for the armour, and, given that CSM armour tends to meld with the flesh, also had to practically flay the other terminator.
Meaning they're tough enough to beat up a termie whilst not wearing any termie armour. And are then tough enough to defend it. So they're probably more deserving than a loyalist terminator,
The 2 Icons that really need a change are Nurgle and tzeentch...
Nurgle could be Stealth for the Flies that buzz around, or better FnP...
Tzeentch its always hard to find the right thing...
Maybe Psykers in a unit with a Tzeentch Icon reroll failed Psy test or gets an extra Warp charge, while non-psyker models gets to reroll ONE dice in each phase per unit, urgh dunno..;doesn't seems to make much sens...
or maybe make the icon count has a Psychic Hood?...
I think the Stealth thing for Nurgle is a bit over-played, but the cloud of flies is a good angle to take. How about enemies have to re-roll overwatch hits against the unit, and the unit always counts as being in difficult terrain if you're trying to charge it? A little bit of encouragement to do something with your plague marines besides camp a home objective.
For the Tzeentch icon, psychic hood is a great idea. Then make the Tzeentch icon the only one that acts as a locator beacon, or maybe a universal locator beacon while the others only work for units with the same mark.
Yeah the Reroll Overwatch and count has terrain for Nurgle could be good.
Or reroll succesfull Overwatch hits and count has having defensive grenades?
Yeah the beacon power of the icons should be back on all of them.
Its something rather silly and hilarious, that the only army after Demons, that stay his whole time in the warp, can't make precision DS, while a lot of other armies just can...
No, I don't have 1 document... I have 2.
Been uploading from different computers and writing down the rules one which ever one I'm on.
The laptop I'm using now had most of the later rules saved in a word dock, while my desktop has the first few rules.
In other news changing mark/devotion of khorne again! Instead of PE in X", I'm changing it to re-roll all To-Wound rolls of a 1, suits khorne more, hey?
Also, with the Warlord traits, I think I'll be keeping 3 of them (well... the basis of 3). Exalted Champion, Master of Deception and Black Crusader will be staying, however Black Crusader will be changing to PE (Everyone), and Exalted Champion will gain an extra roll on the Power table.
Still thinking of the other 3 warlord traits... and I'm kinda stuck...
The Living Dust wounding on ap must be reworked i think. What about armies that don't have many low ap-weapons. Like orks or ig gunline. What about changing the limits to best: 3+, worst 5+. Cause generally, wounding on 6+ can totally wreck a number of lists. And with wounding on 5+ they're allready like t5.
On the whole, i like the spirit of this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, word bearer's buffs are over the top.
What about just allowing to get Gift of mutation for regular characters for 5 pts and Independent characters + daemon princes (iirc he's not independent) can get a second Gift of mutation for 5 pts, thus 2 gifts for 15 pts.
Zealot for all is definitely over-the top.
And a free upgrade of an apostle's stats to a Chaos lord cept for initiative are way too much. Apostle is basically a better chaos variant of a chaplain.
Chaos lord + power weapon + sigil = 105 pts = Apostle - so it's just a trade of 1 wound, 1 bs, 1ws, 1 ini for Zealot + ld10 aura + rerolls of gifts on attached characters.
Maybe it could be good to allow rerolls armywide.
Nurgle upgrade to a vehicle is bad. Noone will pay so much for an iwnd.
Now it could be used as a +1 av on all the sides and making a vehicle type Heavy for 40-50 extra points. Can't exceed av14. So you could get 14-12-11 predators.
Also, i've tried out 2 squads of possessed - it was a fun game...at least i intended it to be so...cause my list contained Apostle, footslogging Sorc, (10+champ) x 2 squads of possessed where one champ had 2 gifts of mutation, and a hell lot of cultists, 2 smaller squads with autoguns and a large blob without weaponry. And the enemy was tau with a forgeworld rapetide that shoots 4 s6-8 ap3 pieplates per turn - yep, FUN is understood differently by different people, he also wanted to go 4 riptides and a hell lot of markers to ignore everything and win by turn 3... Don't know how the game would have ended cause i had to go by the beginning of turn 3 and i had a few possessed left and almost unharmed cultists with the relic. And i forced him to go backwards a bit so if the cultists manage to withstand all his firepower till the endgame - they'll even win Good that there's a huge losblock in the middle of the map so that some of them can avoid a rapetide for a few turns.
Anywayz, at the current state of possessed, i feel that hey're one of the worst choices ever. 5++, fleet and fearless is nice but not nearly enough to make them work for how much they cost. Actually, they're not very frightening in mellee even with str5 and 2 base attacks. Don't think anyone will take them as troops at their current state.
If they were around 15-18 pts, they'd be more apealing. I know, that sounds not very much for their statline, but they'll never pay off anywayz. Or they need to be tougher and have fnp. If they had t5 and fnp they'd have some use even with the current cost. Still better to take plague marines - they're not worse in mellee and can shoot also.
Aye, possessed are going to be changed, mainly with a points decrease (probably end up around the 18-19 mark, but I'll get more into them later)
I've been unsure on WB since I first started this, but I didn't get much input about them (which I do understand) however:
1- Is Zealot of Characters really that powerful? they are already fearless so is hatred really that much extra?
2- I agree that the boons may be a bit powerful, though it was written before the new table and I didn't write it the way I should have.
Would rolling a a smaller, different table (with less powerful effects) be better, or I just scrap the whole gift thing for them and do something else? (re-rolls like you suggested or other?)
3- Understood with the DA, thugh he is the Word Bearer's 'Special Thing'
with the nurgle upgrade, it was essentially a copy-paste from the old Decimator experimental rules, including the cost.
Is legion really that powerful, though? Those armies have a lot of shots. But if it really is then I'll work on it.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Aye, possessed are going to be changed, mainly with a points decrease (probably end up around the 18-19 mark, but I'll get more into them later)
I've been unsure on WB since I first started this, but I didn't get much input about them (which I do understand) however:
1- Is Zealot of Characters really that powerful? they are already fearless so is hatred really that much extra?
2- I agree that the boons may be a bit powerful, though it was written before the new table and I didn't write it the way I should have.
Would rolling a a smaller, different table (with less powerful effects) be better, or I just scrap the whole gift thing for them and do something else? (re-rolls like you suggested or other?)
3- Understood with the DA, thugh he is the Word Bearer's 'Special Thing'
with the nurgle upgrade, it was essentially a copy-paste from the old Decimator experimental rules, including the cost.
Is legion really that powerful, though? Those armies have a lot of shots. But if it really is then I'll work on it.
1. Yes, Zealot is a really good buff. It actually makes apostle + cultists rather decent in mellee! It's fun, but i had an apostle killing nightbringer - a regular one with 4 wounds, t7 and 4++ - in a challenge. Nightbringer charged apostle with 27 cultists and went for s10 strikes to try to insta-kill. Cultists provided 5 rerolls and 4++ rerollable is rather good, while rerolling to-hitsin the first round and to-wounds with cultist's help forced 2 unsaved wounds on a nightbringer. The next phase apostle finished nightbringer off. Yep, that's an exceptional situation but cultists with apostle are capable of killing some wraiths on a charge. And that's something. Just imagine if you get such perk on every lord/sorc with bikers and spawns. That'd be too op for a free buff.
Re-rolling to-hitsof a 5+ make it 0.556 up from 0.33, re-rolling 4+ make it 0.75 up from 0.5, re-rolling 3+ make it 0.889 up from 0.667. So, it's a strong force multiplier. And don't forget fearless.
2. Current gifts are oki. Like 50% of them are not very useful. But they can be a breakpoint. Like the time i rolled +1 armor for a biker sorc and he ate most firepower with 5+ fnp. Or when i rolled crusader for a possessed champion allowing a better run with rerolls to fleet. Or when you get shrouded or something...but half the time you get something like +1 ws, hammer of wrath on a biker lord or hatered on apostle that allready has it. So i think it's generally a nice random and fun thing but it mustn't be given for free. Though, current poit value makes it apear only on indeps while it'd be fun to see more mutated champions. So that's why i proposed a 5 pt value and a possibility to reroll result armywise, though, it might be a bit too much. What about d3 rerolls total?
Just 30 pts for iwnd...noone will ever take it on a vehicle cause they're usually shot down in 1 turn if focused.
Yep, wounding on 6-s instead of 4+ for such armieas as orkses that pack ap6 shooting is a huge blow. They'd be literally unkillable cause nobz with ap2 will be downed in challenges. I'd just have to avoid or tarpit rubrics for the whole game cause i don't really have any chances of killing them. There are lots of weapons with better strength and worse ap than the opposite.
AC wounding on 4+ instead of 2+, ML wounding on 3+ instead of 2+, every HoW attack wounding on 6+ instead of 3+/4+...etc. U see, lower str weapons with better ap is rather an exception...Let's see what can we remember...hot-shot lazguns/lazpistols, rending weaponry, smite, sternguard's special issue ammunition and rubrics themselves. That's basically it. Anywayz, i agree that rubrics need a buff. But probably wounding on ap would be too huge and gamebreaking if it goes to 6+. While 5+ would be manageble. U want them to keep that 4++ also? So, let's count wounds dealt with common weaponry with what you propose.
The ammount of unsaved wounds with every hit:
Plazma, Melta, Lazcannon, Rapetide pieplates: was 0.417, becomes 0.417
Missile launcher, Rokkit: was 0.417, becomes 0.333
Autocannon, Loota'z gun: was 0.278, becomes 0.167
Heavy bolter: was 0.222, becomes 0.167
Big shoota, Pulse rifle: was 0.222, becomes 0.111
Bolter: was 0.167, becomes 0.111
Shoota: was 0.167, becomes 0.055
Lazgun: was 0.111, becomes 0.055
Multi-laser and Deaff-Rolla: was 0.278, becomes 0.055
See, it's like 2 times better survivability vs most commonly seen high-str ap4 shots, like 50% better against most common s4 ap5 weapons, 3 times better vs shootaboyz and 2 times better vs lazguns...and 5 times better vs a multilaser, though it's an odd weapon in the first place While remaining the same against plazma and lazcanoons. It's gona help alot vs serpentshields but i think that shields should be totally reworked or removed cause they're gamebreaking.
So to kill a single rubric i have to shoot... 54-55 shots with my shootaboyz at it. So i'll just have to tarpit them for the whole game cause it's just 2 times better than facing a screamerstar - an those guyz cost 5 times more and need alot of support. Still everyone hates them.
This rule will just give too much durability vs small guns without rending (and eldar will be fine once again) and be at the same lvl vs ap2 spam which is so common now and annoying. So it's breaking the game more than fixing it.
I think it'd be just better to make them something like legion of the damned. Give them ignore cover and ability to take spetial weaponry...and probably deepstrike. And they'd be playable even with the current cost.
4++ instead of 3++, but have psyker and ap3. On the second thought, they can even get a bit more expensive and still function if the rubric sorc gets something more useful than Tzeench powers.
Hatred are rerolls to hit, not to wound, and only the first round of combat. Zealot still confers it to the entire squad, which is good, but your Apostle would be wounding on 5+ and would then have to pierce a 4++. He need to get 24 hits to do that, or a good deal over 40 attacks even with Hatred.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Hatred are rerolls to hit, not to wound, and only the first round of combat. Zealot still confers it to the entire squad, which is good, but your Apostle would be wounding on 5+ and would then have to pierce a 4++. He need to get 24 hits to do that, or a good deal over 40 attacks even with Hatred.
The odds are not in his favour.
Yep, sorry, messed it up a bit - i rerolled everything with cultists and hatred, even so, rerolls to-hits of 4+ is 0.75 up from 0.5 which is once again a 25% effectiveness increase.
I know that beating Nightbringer by apostle seems unlikely and i allready said goodbye to an apostle, but than suddenly...BAM: 2 wounds to Nightbringer, 0 to Apostle, Next turn: 1 wound to Nightbringer, 0 to apostle. Nightbringer had 3 wounds cause a hellbrute managed to cause an unsaved wound over 2 phases with a multi-melta.
If you mathhammer this very combat, you can see that:
Nightbringer with 3 smash attacks on charge: 1.5[hits] * 5/6[to wound] * 1/4[rerollable 4++] = 31% chance of a dead apostle...if you go for a mark of Tzeench - 14% of a dead apostle. Also, there's a HoW hit but let's not count it now cause it has decent chance of being saved with 3+ rerollable.
Apostle with 3 attacks: 2.25[hits with rerolls] * 5/9[to wound with rerolls] * 1/2 [4++] = 62.5% to deal 1 wound. And my apostle had +1 attack cause of a gift.
So, a regular apostle with cultists without any good boons and 3++ has decent chances of killing C'Tan shards. And if he gets some combat-oriented gifts or, say, MoT...he'd have an upper hand. Not even telling about fighting with some artifacts like a black mace.
All in all, i don't think that giving fearless and rerolls to-hit for free is a way to go.
Well, all the traits make them fearless (except for the renegade and red corsair one), but they must purchase VotLW.
re-rolls to hit in the first round of combat isn't that bad for a entire army, especially when the bonus is conferred mainly by 1 W characters, especially AS I am going to remove the traits thing and probably replace it with a small buff for D3 units.
Sure, zealot beatstick lord + cultists will = death to all lone characters and lone charatcer MCs, but it is slow and unwieldly + costs a lot, it should be easy to dodge., and even without zealot that will = death to every lone character.
Aha, cool. Thanks, i kinda never use forgeworld stuff myself.
Anywayz, returning to the word bearer's issue and 1000 sonz.
Zealot for all indeps is too much. Making possessed troops is pointless with their current profile. If you buff them to be more liek daemonettes, they might work. Rending + 3' extra run and a bit lowr cost. Maybe, if you add rending their str should go down to 4. I'd be glad to recieve 3+, 5++ fleet, 3' extra run, 2 attacks, rending, fearless marines for around 20-22 pts. And disallow them embarking on vehicles.
I've written my opinion on 1000 son'z wounding on ap thing. And that if you apply it - they'll just get super-survivable vs small arms and remain the same against annoying pie-plates that still do the same ammount of damage. If you still want to go this way - cap it at 3+ max save, 5+ min save. That'll ballance things out a bit. Anywayz, when i feel that the unit needs more durability - i usually just go for something like fnp. Cause it's a working mechanics that's not gamebreaking at all. It's just some reliable extra durability which doesn't change things too much. For 3+ it goes from 0.666 saves to 0.777 saves and for 4+ from 0.5 to 0.666. Though, for thousand sons it literally makes their armor count somewhat like 2.5+ and invul like 3++ vs anything < s8... So they must cost accordingly.
Anywayz, as i've said, maybe just make them like legion of the damned but with 4++ and ap3?
Ok, I see what you mean with Legion, changed to 3+ - 5+. Don't want to give them FnP as that's the Death Guards main thing (besides T5)
As said earlier, I don't really want to do too much to possessed for now except make them cheaper, I may do other stuff but for now it will probably just be a points decrease.
I still don't think Zealot on Characters is too much, however if I find it really is, I'll likely change it so Characters gain Hatred (though this doesn't really change the whole cultist-support-reroll-character-killer thing, which isn't really that big of an issue as it really is terrible, slow and unwieldy tactic)
Renegades and Emperror's children seem to get mediocre traits compared to others also.
Emperror's children with fleet? Who'll use it? Spawns with a lord/sorc only. Fleet is not that deciding when you ride in a land-raider and that's by far the only delivery system for mellee units that ain't bykes,beasts or fmc.
Possesed should see their unit type changed to Beasts, i mean...look at their models, Hooves, WIngs and stuff...
Giving Zealot to the IC in a WB army isn't that overpowered, it is at best most of the time 2 Characters in the army, at worst with double FOC 4 Characters, thats not that big.
The rest of the WB units might get something like "Fanatisme- give the models Stubborn and Crusader USR"
I've tried out possessed as they are but for 18 pt cost. 10 possessed. Without transport but with a sorc. Slow like all the footslogas. They spent the whole game running forward, than they destroyed a rhino and almost killed a 10-strong tac squad over 2 turns. And that's with sorc and endurance. Not very impressive really. But they'll have their uses. 5++ and fearless is not that bad. But i don't see them very useful cause they have literally no options. Just max 2 mutations for a champ that are rarely of any use and cost 10 each. And they can't have ap2 and any ranged weapons.
On the whole, even 18 pts is too much for what they do really. I mean a regular sm squad usually does more for me. They desperately need some buff and not just a point decrease. They need to get faster to pose any threat. +3' run move would have been nice. If they had it and 18 pt cost - they'd be playable. Mediocre but still playable.
Changing them to beasts is making them compete with spawns. Which they couldn't do even being beasts even at their current state. Also, i might be wrong but i think that beasts can't score.
Iron Warriors Siege breakers
Unit: Infantry (5 models)
Troops choice
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 4
W 1
I 4
A 1
LD 9
SV 3+/6+ FNP
Wargear: Bolter, Bolt pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, Power armour, Bionics
Options:
For every 5 models in the unit you may take 1 of the following heavy weapons
Heavy Bolter 5pts
Autocannon 10pts
Multi-melta 10pts
Heavy Flamer 10pts
Missile launcher 15pts
Flakk for 5pts
Lascannon 20pts
For every 5 models in the unit you may take 1 of the following Special weapons
Flamer 5pts
Meltagun 10pts
plasmagun 15pts
A single model may be upgraded to a Siege Breaker (aspiring champion)
for 25pts, The siege breaker has the Prefered enemy "buildings" and "Tank" special Rule, this confers to
his unit.
The siege breaker may take any normal equipment allowed to an aspiring champion in additin it may take
items from the "special weapons" list for the points listed there.
Iron warriors Siege Rhino
Type Tank, heavy
45pts
1-3
Heavy Support
HP3
FR 11
S 11
R 11
Weapons: Combi bolter, Havoc launcher
Wargear: Siege shield
Fire points: 5 Top hatch
Acess points: 1 Rear
Special rules: The iron Wall: A siege rhino may move into contact with another siege Rhino, if it does so
both siege rhinos are treated as imobilised vehicles from that point on, A siege Rhino that is in contact
with another siege Rhino adds 2 to its front and side armour and gains the armoured ceramite special rule.
Any penetrating or glancing hit done to the Siege Rhino rolls on the Building damage table, any model that
gains bonus's to damaging buildings treats the linked siege rhinos as buildings for damage purposes
A Single predetor Tank may also move into contact with the siege Rhino and will will gain the Iron wall
special rule
(clarification, 1 predetor per siege rhino may benefit, so 2 siege rhinos in contact with a single predetor
will confer the benefit, or 1 predetor and 1 siege rhino, 2 predetors and a single siege rhino will
confer benefit to a single predetor, the controlling player must declare which)
Well, i had a debate with ex-berzerker player, he said they are balls-out expensive with chainaxes... Yes but what are chainaxes going to do? Chop up tau, necron warriors and scouts, which can be killed in CC with wet fish... Also about berzerkers vs CSM with MoK, you pay 4 points extra berzerkers and you getv WS 5, furious charge And fearless... About charging, where they Are supposed to be... take 35x cultists, form them in a LONG line so berzerkers get 5+ coversave... Whn doing so take 20 of them and an icon, so they can reroll charge range, and 10/9 berzerker with a lord in a LR... About thousand sons... No idea, never saw them in action, everyone says they suck and since i never saw them on table, yup i am going to keep silent on the subject.
koooaei wrote: I've tried out possessed as they are but for 18 pt cost. 10 possessed. Without transport but with a sorc. Slow like all the footslogas. They spent the whole game running forward, than they destroyed a rhino and almost killed a 10-strong tac squad over 2 turns. And that's with sorc and endurance. Not very impressive really. But they'll have their uses. 5++ and fearless is not that bad. But i don't see them very useful cause they have literally no options. Just max 2 mutations for a champ that are rarely of any use and cost 10 each. And they can't have ap2 and any ranged weapons.
On the whole, even 18 pts is too much for what they do really. I mean a regular sm squad usually does more for me. They desperately need some buff and not just a point decrease. They need to get faster to pose any threat. +3' run move would have been nice. If they had it and 18 pt cost - they'd be playable. Mediocre but still playable.
Changing them to beasts is making them compete with spawns. Which they couldn't do even being beasts even at their current state. Also, i might be wrong but i think that beasts can't score.
18 points is the points cost for Chosen, and they don't have the Deamon rule and +1 S, they have on the other hand more options, even if those options are overcosted.
Plus competing with the Spawns? how so?, spawns can be made T6 models, with S5 1D6 A per model and 3 Wound per model, and are cheaper then Possesed, its enough to not make them redundant and a viable second choice.
So you have two units that while technically they do the same are still different enough to impose a choice, MEQ beast with Invul models but who are a bit costier in Points? or a unit of Cheaper, harder to Wound, higher Wound pool but with no saves beast models?
peeps who like to play Spawns would still be using them, and peeps who wants to use Possesed has a reason to finaly use them.
koooaei wrote: I've tried out possessed as they are but for 18 pt cost. 10 possessed. Without transport but with a sorc. Slow like all the footslogas. They spent the whole game running forward, than they destroyed a rhino and almost killed a 10-strong tac squad over 2 turns. And that's with sorc and endurance. Not very impressive really. But they'll have their uses. 5++ and fearless is not that bad. But i don't see them very useful cause they have literally no options. Just max 2 mutations for a champ that are rarely of any use and cost 10 each. And they can't have ap2 and any ranged weapons.
On the whole, even 18 pts is too much for what they do really. I mean a regular sm squad usually does more for me. They desperately need some buff and not just a point decrease. They need to get faster to pose any threat. +3' run move would have been nice. If they had it and 18 pt cost - they'd be playable. Mediocre but still playable.
Changing them to beasts is making them compete with spawns. Which they couldn't do even being beasts even at their current state. Also, i might be wrong but i think that beasts can't score.
18 points is the points cost for Chosen, and they don't have the Deamon rule and +1 S, they have on the other hand more options, even if those options are overcosted.
Plus competing with the Spawns? how so?, spawns can be made T6 models, with S5 1D6 A per model and 3 Wound per model, and are cheaper then Possesed, its enough to not make them redundant and a viable second choice.
So you have two units that while technically they do the same are still different enough to impose a choice, MEQ beast with Invul models but who are a bit costier in Points? or a unit of Cheaper, harder to Wound, higher Wound pool but with no saves beast models?
peeps who like to play Spawns would still be using them, and peeps who wants to use Possesed has a reason to finaly use them.
And spawns are still so much better than possessed. U won't see them tabletop. Just like nobz. They're not bad but are outperformed by boyz and while filling the same role and doing the exact same thing, you don't see regular nobz running around while see lotsa boyz while nobz apear only in exceptional situations where they're required for an extra battlewagon or the player is going extremely casual. If you make possessed beasts, they'd fill the exact same role and do the exact same thing as spawns. But worse. 3+/5++ is not nearly as good as +1t, +2w.
Now what would make them worthwile is both lowering the cost and buffing them. And if they get extra speed, they can be nice footslogas. Not making them as fast as spawns, no. Just adding something like a 3' extra run. Or crusader usr. Something like that. So what i see can be done:
Possessed [18 ppm]: t4, s5, ws4, bs4, ini4, w1, a2, sv 3+/5++, ld9
One model per squad can be upgraded to a Possessed champion [+10 ppm]: t4, s5, ws4, bs4, ini4, w2, a3, sv3+/5++, ld9
Squad size 5-20 models
Can be taken as Troops if the detachment includes Dark Apostle.
Daemons, Fearless, Fleet, Vessels of Chaos, Swift
Swift - gain Move through Cover and add 3' for running moves
Vessels of chaos - can not be joined by independent characters without gift of mutation. Count as Bulky for the purpose of transport capacity because they can't sit still untill they're tied up. Models with Vessels of Chaos rule can gain powers from the table below. The power can be nominated at the beginning of a controlling player's movement phase. It is active until the beginning of controlling player's next movement phase. The same power can't be nominated if it has allready been in use in the previous turn.
-Unholy resilience: gain FNP and are not slowed down by difficult terrain, still make dangerous terrain tests and suffer ini penalties if charge through difficult terrain.
-Unholy might: gain Rending for their mellee attacks
-Unholy swiftness: gain +1A, +1Ini, do not suffer Ini penalties for charging through difficult terrain
So, what do you think? Bulky is needed cause they're not bad in mellee now with reliable rending or +1a +1ini. And considereing their pointscost they can be too effective as land-raider retinue. And i can't imagine a possessed individual being reasonable enough to be patient and not run around the place.
Maybe add a few oldschool upgrades like warp flamers or wings that improve movement. Any suggestions? I see them as good now. What do you think? Don't know about marks though. Think they must not be allowed to take them. Cause they're daemons and chaos marks make them marked daemons thus adding stuff like rerolls failed saves of a 1.
About Emperor's Children - Perhaps their VotLW should give them hatred/preferred enemy versus Eldar/Dark Eldar instead? I can see reason for both keeping it as is, and changing it up really.
A bit of thread necro, hoping it will be OK seeming I'm the OP and its only mean a few months.
Sorry I haven't done much recently, life happened.
However, it's starting to die down again and I've done a few little things...
First, work on the Legion Traits:
Legion Traits:
Red Corsairs:
Spoiler:
Anarchy and Piracy Gains Hit & Run.
The Strongest Remain Strong Alone Gain Stubborn. May re-roll failed Pinning tests.
Renegades:
Spoiler:
Alone in the Storm Characters may re-roll the failed leadership test to see if they must issue/accept challenges. Additionally, all models have the Combat Squads special rule from Codex: Space Marines.
Into the Darkness May re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests.
World Eaters:
Spoiler:
Blood for the Blood God! Must take MoK. Gains Furious Charge. Characters gain an extra D3+1 Attacks in a Challenge. Bezerkers without Terminator Armour may be taken as troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Emperor’s Children:
Spoiler:
Perfection and Ecstasy Must take MoS. All models have the Fleet and Feel No Pain (6+) special rules. Characters gain the Rending special rule while in a challenge. Noise Marines without Terminator Armour are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Death Guard:
Spoiler:
Plague and Putrescence Must take MoN. Models are I3 and have the Slow and Purposeful special rule but gain Feel No Pain (4+). Characters gain the Posion (4+) special rule while in challenges. Plague Marines without Terminator Armour are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Thousand Sons:
Spoiler:
Forbidden Sorcery Must take MoT. All non-Character models have the Legion of Dust special rule. Psykers may roll their powers from any of the BRB Disciplines. Characters may take +1 Mastery level for 25pts (maximum of 4). Characters may re-roll failed Invulnerable and armour saves while in a challenge. Thousand Sons without Terminator Armour are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Night Lords:
Spoiler:
Fear Incarnate Gains Night Vision and Fear. If primary detachment, Night Fighting always occurs on the First Turn. Raptors are troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Alpha Legion:
Spoiler:
Sons of Alpharius Gains Infiltrate. Characters have 2+ LoS. If Primary Detachment, Seize Initiative on 4+
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Iron Warriors:
Spoiler:
Iron Within, Iron Without Helbrutes may be taken as Heavy Support choices as well as Elites and Predators, Vindicators, Forgefiends and Maulerfiends may be taken as Elites as well as Heavy Support. All models have the Tank Hunter special rule and add 1 to the armour penetration roll when targeting Forifications.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Word Bearers:
Spoiler:
Gift of the Gods Before deployment, all Characters must roll upon the Power Chaos Boon Table, re-rolling all Spawndom and Dark Apotheosis results. In addition, all Independent Characters have the Zealot special rule. Chaos Space Marine Possessed may be taken as Troops and Elites. If they are taken as an Elites choice they may be upgraded with Terminator Armour for 15pts per model.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Black Legion:
Spoiler:
Death to the False Emperor All models have the Crusader special rule. The Warlord has the Zealot and Preferred Enemy (Imperium) special rule. Additionally, every Character may re-roll one extra die in a challenge if its opponent is an Imperial Character. Chosen are Troops.
The Great Heresy Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless
Main changes are too Renegades, Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Black Legion. All look good? Not entirely sure how many points Termi Armour on possessed should cost. I made it 15 as that's the cost or artificer armour in the SM dex (as possessed have no need for relentless and already have a 5++)
Speaking of Possessed...
Possessed........110pts
Spoiler:
Possessed (Infantry) WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T4 W 1 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Possessed Champion (Infantry, Character) WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T4 W 1 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Unit Composition: 4 Possessed, 1 Possessed Champion
Wargear: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos (Champion only), Daemon, Fearless, Fleet, Vessels of Chaos, Move Through Cover, Rending
Options: -May add up to 15 Possessed...22 pts/model -The Possessed Champion may take up to two Gifts of Mutation...10 pts each -The unit may take one of the following Marks of Chaos: --Mark of Khorne...2 pts/model --Mark of Tzeentch...4 pts/model --Mark of Nurgle...3 pts/model --Mark of Slaanesh... 2 pts/model -One model may purchase one of the following Chaos Icons: --Icon of Wrath...15 pts --Icon of Flame...5 pts --Icon of Despair...5 pts --Icon of Excess...35 pts --Icon of Vengeance...5 pts -The unit may take the Veterans of the Long War special rule...2 pts/model -Every model in the unit may purchase one of the following mutations: --Additional Limb...2 pts/model --Fiendish Strength...3 pts/model --Venomous...3 pts/model --Ichor...9 pts/model -The unit may take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport
Vessels of Chaos Before deployment, roll once on the Mutations Chaos Boon Table for each unit with this rule in your army. Every model in that unit gains the result. Additionally, at the beginning of every Game Turn, roll on the following table:
D3 | Result 1-2 | Arcane Protection: 3+ Invulnerable Save 3-4 | Insane Speed: Beasts, +1 I 5-6 | Vorpal Claws: AP3, Shred
They keep this result until the beginning of the next Game Turn.
How do they look? I hope I've done a satisfactory job with them!
Good point, probably should have looked at CT again to refresh my memory.
Ok, how about this?
Black Legion:
Spoiler:
Death to the False Emperor All models have the Crusader special rule. The Warlord has the Zealot and Preferred Enemy (Imperium) special rule. Additionally, every Character may re-roll one extra die in a challenge if its opponent is an Imperial Character. Chosen are Troops.
Last time I got praise for the Ld test thing but it was suggested that I should add more. I didn't want to add anything too powerful to it, however I think I may have come up with a small boost that isn't too OP. I'm currently deciding whether to give all Champions of Chaos this re-roll or just the important ones (Cult Leaders, Chosen Champions, ICs, DPs, Possessed Champions and maybe Warp Talon Champions?)
So:
Champion of Chaos
Spoiler:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any challengers are issued, a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule must take a Leadership test. If the model passes, it may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, it must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.
If multiple friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule a participating in the same combat, even if they are part of different units, do not roll individually for each character. Instead, roll one Leadership test against the lowest leadership value among all friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule in the same combat. If the test is passed, they may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, one of the Champions of Chaos (you chose) must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.
If a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule slays an enemy Character or Monstrous Creature, roll on the Chaos Boon Table.
Champion of the Gods
Spoiler:
While in a challenge, a model with this special rule gains one extra Moral Support (Get 'Im Boss!) re-roll.
Thinking of icons next. Slaanesh and Khorne will stay the same. Nurgle will be the overwatch/combat protection flies, Tz I'm still unsure of. Psychic Hood is nice but very, very situation.
I'm also going to re-do vengeance because with legion rules you don't need it unless you take Renegades or Red Corsairs...
Possessed (Infantry)
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T4
W 1
I 4
A 2
Ld 9
Sv 3+
Possessed Champion (Infantry, Character)
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T4
W 1
I 4
A 2
Ld 9
Sv 3+
Unit Composition: 4 Possessed, 1 Possessed Champion
Wargear: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos (Champion only), Daemon, Fearless, Vessels of Chaos, Rending, Swift
Options:
-May add up to 15 Possessed...19 pts/model
-The Possessed Champion may take up to two Gifts of Mutation...10 pts each
-The unit may take one of the following Marks of Chaos:
--Mark of Khorne...2 pts/model
--Mark of Tzeentch...4 pts/model
--Mark of Nurgle...3 pts/model
--Mark of Slaanesh... 2 pts/model
-One model may purchase one of the following Chaos Icons:
--Icon of Wrath...15 pts
--Icon of Flame...5 pts
--Icon of Despair...5 pts
--Icon of Excess...35 pts
--Icon of Vengeance...5 pts
-The unit may take the Veterans of the Long War special rule...2 pts/model
-Every model in the unit may purchase the following mutations:
--Additional Limb...2 pts/model
--Fiendish Strength...3 pts/model
--Venomous...3 pts/model
--Ichor...4 pts/model
--Warpflame...3 pts/mode
-The entire unit may become beasts...4 pts/model
-The unit may take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport
Warpflame A model with this mutation may make an attack with the following profile:
Rng: 18" Str 4 AP - Type Assault 1, Soul Blaze, Ignores Cover
Vessels of Chaos Before deployment, roll once on the Mutations Chaos Boon Table for each unit with this rule in your army. Every model in that unit gains the result.
Additionally, at the beginning of every Game Turn, roll on the following table:
D6 | Result
1-2| Master of the Hunt: +1 WS, Night Vision
3-4| Arcane Protection: 3+ Invulnerable Save
5-6| Vorpal Claws: AP3, Shred
They keep this result until the beginning of the next Game Turn.
Swift Models with this special rule have Fleet, Move Through Cover and do not suffer the penalty to initiative when charging through cover.
Frozen Ocean wrote: A 210pt Heldrake is going to really struggle to get its points back by doing its job (MEQ-hunting). Also, the thing really isn't as scary as people make out. Mine was killed by a lascannon Predator.
Fix Berserkers. Give them axes for free and give their axes Shred. As for Tzeentch psykers, would it be unreasonable for them to generate their Tzeentch power as a free extra? Because seriously, Tzeentch powers suck and there is very little to represent the Changer of Ways' supposed mastery of psychic power.
Not sure what it means but yesterday I noticed that berserkers were removed from the GW site.
Not really, there is no reason why Chaos Space Marines should be lesser. While, yes, the one from the Horus Heresy were made in a rush and not up to the same standards as earlier (and later) marines, they've survived in the warp for millennium.
AS well as that, a good number of CSM aren't from the Horus Heresy, they fell after.
As for the whole Legion List thing, CSMs are (for the most part) broken up into warbands. While some of the original legions are still legions, it is simpler keeping it like this. I could see my self making certain HQ choices 2 for one slot, though. Again, not all CSMs are from the original Legions, too.
Now on possessed...
I playtested them a bit today and have decided upon a few things:
- Removing Vessels of Chaos for a few reasons, 1 being that it had an.. interesting combo that was quite broken (str 8, Shred, AP 3... heh heh no)
- Removing Ichor as it added nothing
- Increasing cost of the Beast upgrade, it seemed a tad to cheap (raise to 7 points sound fair)
Now more on the possessed themselves...
Barebones: as expected they functioned similar to Daemonettes, jack of all trades and masters of none just without the numbers, though they are more survivable. Without upgrading the number of attacks the unit can do decent damage to most things but is terrible vs hordes (and still are fairly bad after for their cost, but that isn't what these guys are for...)
Shooting upgrade: as I wanted it to be, not amazing but still useful. Thinking about whether to increase its power a tad, but no real problems with it
Strength: Yeah this is where they get powerful. I feel it is priced fairly currently, but I soon discovered an interesting combo with vessels (the aforementioned Str 8, Shred, AP 3 attacks...)
Beast: A bit cheap maybe (as mentioned) and a good upgrade. 7 pts seems fair so far. Helps them get there fast
All the things/mini deathstar: Costly, but felt worth the points (this was after playtesting without the insane combo of marine slaughter). Will cost more once Beast is given a small price bump.
Now on possessed...
I playtested them a bit today and have decided upon a few things:
- Removing Vessels of Chaos for a few reasons, 1 being that it had an.. interesting combo that was quite broken (str 8, Shred, AP 3... heh heh no)
- Removing Ichor as it added nothing
- Increasing cost of the Beast upgrade, it seemed a tad to cheap (raise to 7 points sound fair)
Now more on the possessed themselves...
Barebones: as expected they functioned similar to Daemonettes, jack of all trades and masters of none just without the numbers, though they are more survivable. Without upgrading the number of attacks the unit can do decent damage to most things but is terrible vs hordes (and still are fairly bad after for their cost, but that isn't what these guys are for...)
Shooting upgrade: as I wanted it to be, not amazing but still useful. Thinking about whether to increase its power a tad, but no real problems with it
Strength: Yeah this is where they get powerful. I feel it is priced fairly currently, but I soon discovered an interesting combo with vessels (the aforementioned Str 8, Shred, AP 3 attacks...)
Beast: A bit cheap maybe (as mentioned) and a good upgrade. 7 pts seems fair so far. Helps them get there fast
All the things/mini deathstar: Costly, but felt worth the points (this was after playtesting without the insane combo of marine slaughter). Will cost more once Beast is given a small price bump.
Do you think that making them beasts is a good thing? I'm afraid they're gona be used as beasts only. But ain't the price too high for that? Spawns are still way better cause of how durable they are. Btw, are marks applying to them as to daemons or regular marines?
I've playtested possessed to be worth 16 ppm with the current codex rules and was happy with the results. They were still not quite useful and didn't pay off but at least did something and weren't a complete waste.
- In one game 7 possessed with sorc and apostle won a combat vs 5 barebonez vanguard vets with a chapellan that charged from a landraider over 2 turns, loosing 2 possessed. A lucky +1 ini/+1 A were rolled so they managed to kill 2 vets at ini 5.
- in another game they've chopped through a tactical marine squad over 2 turns and wrecked a rhino. But that happened cause a marine player didn't pay enough attention to them while he could and hoped that rapid fire bolters and a plazmagun would be enough to stop them.
- in 3-d game they died to tau shooting but managed to run across the board and attract enough attention for a couple of turns thanks to 3+/5++ and fnp from being buffed by a sorc.
- in 4-th game they were shot off the board by turn 2 cause were focused down
As you see, they didn't do anything extraordinary and weren't dead killy, super-durable or too fast. Thus made me think that their real cost is 16 and not 26 Maybe that was a typo in the first place?
If you don't issue the challenge, the opponent can then issue himself a challenge, so in the end the result is the same, you will be in each and every challenge Vs every darn low life sergeant.
No maybe something that if the Challenger as not a minimum of 2Wounds, the Champion of Chaos model, can then ignore the peasant and just fight normaly during this phase.
Well, 7th edition released I've gotten working on this project again.
I've attached a document with the changes I've made. You'll notice a few small changes, like Possession giving IWND and the Legion Traits (now Legacies of Heresy) having an overhaul (most of them remain the same for the most part)
You'll also notice a new rule, Master of the Dark Arts.
Working on Champion of Chaos now, as well as turning my gaze to Dark Apostles (many because 7th has given me an idea).
Basic Guide to what has what with the new rules for now and updated pricing, etc.:
Daemonic Possession: Increase price to 20 points, Helbrutes can now purchase it.
VotLW: Every non-HQ can purchase it for 1pt/ model, DA for free and all other HQs for 5pts
Legion of Dust: Thousand Sons
Horrors of the Warp: Everyone has it (except Cultists, because they're cultists)
Master of the Dark Arts: Psykers and Dark Apostles can purchase Master of the Dark Arts (*) where * is the god of the mark they have for 15pts, Psykers can purchase Narcissistic version for 15pts.
Legacies: Everyone (except cultists for the most part) has them, all models in the same detachment must have the same legacy. Zerkers can only have Bloodshed, TSons can only have Sorcery, Plague Marines can only have Pestilence and Noise Marines can only have Decadence)
Marks: Same costs
Dedications: Only for Vehicles with Daemonic Possession
-Khorne: 15pts
-Slaanesh: 15pts
-Nurgle: 20pts
-Tzeentch: 20pts
Was going to update the OP with all the info on Dakka so you don't need to download the document... but wow its annoying to update. I fear the document is now too big...
I'll work on it slowly, maybe...
Anyway, new update!
This update adds a few things, a New HQ choice (Sorcerer Lord, basically the old Sorcerer from the (4th?) Edition codex, but with Fearless and the current options) and 4 Psychic Power Disciplines (General Chaos, Tzeentch, Nurgle & Slaanesh)
I have uploaded it to Google Docs for ease, mainly (so I can update the file instead of attaching different version onto Dakka...).
Link EDIT: Updated the file again, mainly fixing up a few errors I noticed later on and re-wording a few things to make them a bit more clear. Also added ANOTHER HQ choice, basically a Chapter Master equivalent (Cheaper, +1 WS but no Orbital Bombardment, can be upgraded to be a Lvl 1 Psyker though, unless you chose Khorne)
. Shred on all is a bit much (makes the new 
Good that there's a huge losblock in the middle of the map so that some of them can avoid a rapetide for a few turns.
