I've had a bit of a look around but I can't seem to find too many facts on this new super heavy based expansion. Could anyone give me a run down on how it's all going to work?
Agreed, I heard somewhere that the supplement would have a list of useable super heavies, so not every single one ever. Also, I'm a bit pants-wetingly nervous about the mandatory-ness of this supplement, as I've got a buddy with a LOT of baneblades.
If its like planet strike where its a totally different game then w.e, but if it is just "I own this book so i can bring super heavies all the time and none can stop me" then i'm gonna be sad.
nwabudikemorgan wrote: Agreed, I heard somewhere that the supplement would have a list of useable super heavies, so not every single one ever. Also, I'm a bit pants-wetingly nervous about the mandatory-ness of this supplement, as I've got a buddy with a LOT of baneblades.
If its like planet strike where its a totally different game then w.e, but if it is just "I own this book so i can bring super heavies all the time and none can stop me" then i'm gonna be sad.
About that...you can always say no. Be upfront with your friend. Tell him you're simply not interested in that style of game. Games should be fun for BOTH players.
nwabudikemorgan wrote: Agreed, I heard somewhere that the supplement would have a list of useable super heavies, so not every single one ever. Also, I'm a bit pants-wetingly nervous about the mandatory-ness of this supplement, as I've got a buddy with a LOT of baneblades.
If its like planet strike where its a totally different game then w.e, but if it is just "I own this book so i can bring super heavies all the time and none can stop me" then i'm gonna be sad.
A single, unsupported, monstrously expensive vehicle? Yep, I'd be worried, too. Winning all the time is nice but gets boring after a while.
Seriously, Baneblades are nothing to be scared of.
Got to take a look at the Escalation book a bit ago. It's pretty much a straight copy-paste of the Apoc rules for the most part, everything is in as-is, D weapons, Apocalyptic Megablasts, all of it. Basically, you get an optional "Lord of War" slot, just like allies or fortifications, that you can take a Superheavy in. As noted elsewhere, if one side brings a Lord of War and the other doesn't, they get a +1 to seize the initiative. You get +1VP for every 3 HP's inflicted on the Lord of War (so basically, if you kill a Baneblade, you get as much as if you got Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, and First Blood). Should make things turbo easy for many lists.
The only thing I'm potentially unclear on (and this is entirely possible that it may be me reading it poorly) is if you can take Superheavy units that aren't listed in the book as "Lords of War" due to some of the wording. Of those featured it was the plastic Baneblade and all variants, the Stompa, Revenant Titan, Thunderhawk, Harridan (I think), the plastic Necron apoc thingy, the Tigershark...and my mind's blanking, I think there was more but I don't remember.
Horus Heresy 2 basically has these rules in them. *shrug* they look like a ton of fun. Also - in HH2 there is something called "The Price of Failure" - Secondary Objective. When a Lord of War gets destroyed the opponent gets 2 additional victory points. I imagine they will do something similar in escalation.
Also Imperial Armour 2 (the new one) calls out specific units as "Lords of War".
cvtuttle wrote: Horus Heresy 2 basically has these rules in them. *shrug* they look like a ton of fun. Also - in HH2 there is something called "The Price of Failure" - Secondary Objective. When a Lord of War gets destroyed the opponent gets 2 additional victory points. I imagine they will do something similar in escalation.
Also Imperial Armour 2 (the new one) calls out specific units as "Lords of War".
These rules are also in HH1, and the game has to be atleast 2000 points min. /the Lord of war can't be more then 25% of your armies point cost. Bassicly it's Apoc light.
*Shrugs*
Sounds more appealing then normal apoc in all honesty.
I sure would like to play a Stompa in regular games, because it's kinda cool. I think it's pretty crap though, just consider what are it's chances of killing say a Riptide. Not gonna happen.
Didn't get anything on the points limits eh? From what I saw in WD I don't think there is a points limit to these things as long as you can afford them. It mentions them in games as low as 1500 pts... yikes.
Knew the Revenant would be in... any Imperial titans at all? Bah! Want to know if Imperial titans are in or not... Warhound is cheaper then the Revenant...
Matt1785 wrote: Didn't get anything on the points limits eh? From what I saw in WD I don't think there is a points limit to these things as long as you can afford them. It mentions them in games as low as 1500 pts... yikes.
1500? Thats bonkers.
O___O
Would rather use the age of darkness rules in hh1. Feels like the actully tried to make balenced rules...
Matt1785 wrote: Didn't get anything on the points limits eh? From what I saw in WD I don't think there is a points limit to these things as long as you can afford them. It mentions them in games as low as 1500 pts... yikes.
Knew the Revenant would be in... any Imperial titans at all? Bah! Want to know if Imperial titans are in or not... Warhound is cheaper then the Revenant...
No points limits as far as I could see. No Imperial Titans in the book.
Well, from the description at BoLS it appears there is no pt limit for the superheavy. You just can include one if you like.
Imagine a Stompa in an Ork army. Looks fun to me.
I'm a little surprised they didn't use the Scorpion instead. It's a much better fit for Apoc-lite than a unit that's almost 1000pts.
I was kinda hoping they'd stick with all the 'lighter' super-heavy units and just tone down Destroyer weapons to S10 AP1 Ordnance for the 16 listed units. Now anyone with a Revenant is just going to walk all over every game with four D-strength large blasts every turn.
Yeah, D-weapons (as they currently are), have no place in "normal" 40K. Apart from that, I have no problems with allowing any and all superheavies into a game, as long as they follow the 25% rule used in Heresy rules (no more than 25% of your total points can be spent on it). If you can't kill a Baneblade in a 2000pt game, may the Emperor have pity on you should you ever face a couple of Riptides or Wraithknights.
*looks into buying a Revenant Titan* Sweet, now I can D-weapon you to death!! How would you like that death? 4 large blasts? Or 2 large blasts for each unit?
No points restrictions makes me think Forgeworld is going to have a HUGE call for Revenant Titans... because Eldar needed the boost.
In all seriousness though, I am a casual "Hobby" player, so I could see maybe one or two games against titans.. but I definitely won't be playing EVERY game against a Titan... hopefully others feel the same way.
I'm not at risk of facing any superheavies when playing with my friends, but that might happen once I complete my list and get to playing regularly at an FLGS. Frankly speaking, I'd like to face a Behnbleid in a match (I've got a comforting amount of Melta and Lascannon in my army), but Titans and more specifically, D-weapons, not so much.
The epub/mobi version is now available for downloading. There is no language resembling the Age of Darkness 25% requirement. The counterbalance attempt is solely 'both sides can do it,' bonus to seize against it, and the additional victory points for smacking it around.
I am mildly irritated but unsurprised that options are linked to primary detachment codex. I own two superheavy hulls but don't play Guard, and everything I do play is stuck with a thunderhawk, a useless flying ion cannon, or the derpcrusher of Khorne.
From what I see each of the units has a point value and has points to buy upgrades. So I'm pretty sure super heavies aren't just an auto include in your army. Pretty sure you pay the points.
tankboy145 wrote: From what I see each of the units has a point value and has points to buy upgrades. So I'm pretty sure super heavies aren't just an auto include in your army. Pretty sure you pay the points.
I'm pretty sure absolutely no one ever thought they'd be free. References to a lack of points limit are a comparison to the HH Age of Darkness rules that stipulate a Lord of War cannot exceed 25% of your point allowance, so Primarchs didn't pop up in 1000 point games. Such a restriction would have barred most of the Escalation book to games below 2k and that is probably why none exists.
Given the high level of durability and access to Destroyer weapons, many things are bordering on auto-include in larger games.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Yeah, D-weapons (as they currently are), have no place in "normal" 40K.
Apart from that, I have no problems with allowing any and all superheavies into a game, as long as they follow the 25% rule used in Heresy rules (no more than 25% of your total points can be spent on it).
If you can't kill a Baneblade in a 2000pt game, may the Emperor have pity on you should you ever face a couple of Riptides or Wraithknights.
I would normally agree, but I also think that rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves on squads have no place in the game either, and this is definatley an answer to that.
In all seriousness though, I am a casual "Hobby" player, so I could see maybe one or two games against titans.. but I definitely won't be playing EVERY game against a Titan... hopefully others feel the same way.
Rautakanki wrote: I sure would like to play a Stompa in regular games, because it's kinda cool. I think it's pretty crap though, just consider what are it's chances of killing say a Riptide. Not gonna happen.
Or when it gets charged by fire warriors with EMP grenades and kill it in one turn.
I mean really, if I saw this thing, I'd just assault it with FMCs. Which would totally be worth it, and I'd get bonus points, while the rest of your army is small.
We had these things around before apoc during 3rd ed and I can tell you how every game went.
1) The guy across the table is annoyed all game because he cant deal with your super heavy and will never play against one again.
or
2) You blow the thing up in one turn and the game was a complete waste of time.
Those are the options. I have never in my 2 decades of playing this game seen it go any other way other then the 2 options posted above. This isn't some magical answer to the 2++ deathstars out there as this will not be played wide spread nor accepted in tournaments, and why the feth would you play someone with screamer star in a casual game if you don't like it?
I reviewed both Escalation and Stronghold (links in my sig) for anyone who doesn't want to drop the cash blindly.
That aside, I think both are pretty good. Stronghold got more new rules and updates, but Escalation got my new favorite mission type. YMMV, but that's 40k in a nutshell for you.
I just finished reading both the books
I dont think that apoc models in 40k is a good idea at all
but apparently at my flgs these rules will be legit for the upcoming doubles tourney.. so just for broken sake.. i will be taking my transcendent C'tan
pretty much theres lots of apoc models in the book that it allows you to take...
and youre aloud to take 1
it is called your lord of war
and when you take it. your opponent will get some special rules against you and special warlord traits
also if your lord of war dies.. it gives up 3 victory points
Automatically Appended Next Post: also there is no warhound in there...
Hmm the Tiger Shark rules in Escalation only list the ion weapons and no option to make them heavy rail guns... Does this mean the A-X-1-0 I just ordered can't be used in Escalation game but the regular one can...? Also the regular tiger shark seems pretty meh in the escalation rules compared to the other super heavies =[
Noctem wrote: Hmm the Tiger Shark rules in Escalation only list the ion weapons and no option to make them heavy rail guns... Does this mean the A-X-1-0 I just ordered can't be used in Escalation game but the regular one can...? Also the regular tiger shark seems pretty meh in the escalation rules compared to the other super heavies =[
Pretty much. Doesn't mean you and your friends can't sit down and hash out some house rules to use it though.
Desubot wrote: "Tigershark"..... Well played GW well played.
What's infuriating is that I have the AX-1-0 version, not the normal. So blah on GW.
Destroyer weapons are badly thought out and overpowered in Apoc, and have no place in normal 40K. And the new superheavy rules are dumbed down jokes compared to even Apoc 1. Still a few little things in Escalation are nice touches- If you have a Lord of War, the enemy gets +1 to sieze the Initiative, and you get 1 victory point (as a secondary objective) for each three hull points or wounds you put on the enemies lord of war.
Still, barring the inclusion of the Aquilla Strongpoint in normal games of 40K in stronghold assault, that expansion is far better done than Escalation.
Just a thought that crossed my mind: nothing is stopping FW from adding more options to Escalation by saying "The following are to be treated as Lords of War for games of Escalation:" and then just list everything they feel fits.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Yeah, D-weapons (as they currently are), have no place in "normal" 40K.
Apart from that, I have no problems with allowing any and all superheavies into a game, as long as they follow the 25% rule used in Heresy rules (no more than 25% of your total points can be spent on it).
If you can't kill a Baneblade in a 2000pt game, may the Emperor have pity on you should you ever face a couple of Riptides or Wraithknights.
I would normally agree, but I also think that rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves on squads have no place in the game either, and this is definatley an answer to that.
God I hate that crap so very very much.
Yea I would agree that D weapons dont belong as you can drop monstrous creatures and vehicles like nothing. But when you play against a unit with a rerollable 2+ cover or invuln then the game is just stupid and a D weapon is the perfect solution!
Noctem wrote: Hmm the Tiger Shark rules in Escalation only list the ion weapons and no option to make them heavy rail guns... Does this mean the A-X-1-0 I just ordered can't be used in Escalation game but the regular one can...? Also the regular tiger shark seems pretty meh in the escalation rules compared to the other super heavies =[
Yeah, that's just hilarious. Eldar get a titan with 4x D-weapon pie plates, Tau get a flying Hammerhead with a few gun drone passengers. You'd think they'd at least pretend to care about the quality of their books...
In Stronghold we get to benefit from one of the fortifications, but no, we don't get anything for us in Escalation. Worse yet, we don't even get access to the Imperial Guard hand-me-downs.
Again, something that is easily fixed through house rules, but an oversight in the book as a whole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually to be fair, Stronghold lets us benefit from two fortifications, but only one mentions us by name, and the other one is capable of hurting us despite it's benefits.
Troike wrote: Oh bloody hell. Well, at least we've got units that can effectively counter these super-heavies, hopefully.
What's this Stonghold benefit you mentioned, thn?
Honoured Imperium is the one that mentions Sisters, it makes Imperium models within 2" of the Imperium Rubble get Stubborn. The statue makes Imperium models within 2" Fearless and confers a 3+ cover save (normal TLOS cover, not a bubble or anything). The whole formation can buy Obstacles (which I covered in my review).
The one that can kill us, as well as help us is the Promethium Relay Pipes. Basically take an Aegis Defense Line, and instead of the 2+ go to ground cover save it does D6, S4, AP5 hits when you roll 1s for cover saves (don't worry it is cheaper than an Aegis as well). What it does is make all flamers mounted on non-vehicles in 2" become heavy weapons (Assualt or Pistol and they count as Heavy if you want so you can turn the effect off if you need to shuffle about too) and they get the Torrent rule. It can also take Obstacles.
tankboy145 wrote: Yea I would agree that D weapons dont belong as you can drop monstrous creatures and vehicles like nothing. But when you play against a unit with a rerollable 2+ cover or invuln then the game is just stupid and a D weapon is the perfect solution!
I'm of the opinion that two wrong's don't make a right. Yes, it is a counter to the 2+ reroll invuls. But if one badly designed thing marginalizes normal units and play, then adding a second thing that marginalizes normal units and play doesn't necessarily reduce the problem, it just marginalizes farther. And the game becomes about these units even more.
Escalation is a good name for this book. Do I need to remind people that the word escalation is almost always used negatively, e.g. nuclear escalation. One person has them so others get them, and conventional armies become less relevant.
Well,guess I won't be selling my revenant after all then.
I don't get the whole negative thing about the book as if it breaks the game. The game was broken the moment allies hit the table again (obviously aside form the standard rules and codexes). This doesn't change a thing, if you play people you play more often and know well, you just agree ahead of time whether you want to use it or not. If you play people who want to follow the exact rules and have wraithknight/riptide combo's, go wild. Though, not a lot in that book that actually is very good against those things aside from a revenant who swallows up half yourpoints at a sub2k game and dies pretty fast.
If you can't come to an agreement about the book with the people you play with, maybe it's time to look for other opponents more than anything else. As for tournament, who cares, To's will make their own rules anyways so no need to worry.
Gertjan wrote: The game was broken the moment allies hit the table again (obviously aside form the standard rules and codexes).
Allies are not even close to D-weapons in normal 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gertjan wrote: If you can't come to an agreement about the book with the people you play with, maybe it's time to look for other opponents more than anything else.
You're neglecting pickup games. Now if you want to play a game of 40k you have to spend even more time negotiating just what overpowered and stupid rules are allowed.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Yeah, D-weapons (as they currently are), have no place in "normal" 40K.
Apart from that, I have no problems with allowing any and all superheavies into a game, as long as they follow the 25% rule used in Heresy rules (no more than 25% of your total points can be spent on it).
If you can't kill a Baneblade in a 2000pt game, may the Emperor have pity on you should you ever face a couple of Riptides or Wraithknights.
I would normally agree, but I also think that rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves on squads have no place in the game either, and this is definatley an answer to that.
God I hate that crap so very very much.
Yea I would agree that D weapons dont belong as you can drop monstrous creatures and vehicles like nothing. But when you play against a unit with a rerollable 2+ cover or invuln then the game is just stupid and a D weapon is the perfect solution!
Except one problem. You just made the 2++ invuln re-roll army useless..... by bringing something that also IDs pretty much everything else in the game hurraaaaaay! But in all seriousness, no. An answer like this is not the solution, it just makes a aalready broken game even worse. With the 2++ re-roll it was probably just an oversight (and I can't blame a company for not planning every move out.... though they could fax it to say hey guys 2++ invulns are more like 2++ and then 4++ or something I dunno).... but casually throwing D-weapons is an incredibly different problem altogether.
Also, escalation arguably will cause more arguments for pick up games and further can ruin individual's opinions of FW which is something FW is already struggling with xD
Two small templates at D strenght don't seem to do much to screamers it will clip 2 screamers or heralds max , but heralds can Look out sir . And the templates scater , so I don't think a ravenant will kill more then 2 , maybe 3 screamers per turn .Maybe more if someone uses divination on it .
I also don't know how much it costs , I guess something like two shadow swords on account of it being armed with 2 D weapons.
Strange, it seems to me like Lords of War costs about 100 points...
But they are not. LoW has many drawbacks
- its point cost is huge (HUGE), especially in low point games where its IMO unbearable
- you are giving your opponent extra Warlord Traits which can easily sink your LoW - LoW means more potential victory points for opponent, it can lose you battle
So far, it seems to me that Lord of War will be potentially big change for some armies (you will have to adapt) but not "I take LoW, I just won" like some people acts. As someone said, 2++ invun reroll saves are also big thing and yeah, you have to adapt your army.
And yeah, I admit, I like it because it gives chance to more fluffy armies and awesome moments.
But +2inv could be countered with GK ally for a lot less points and cash. My faction doesn't have any non FW units that can take down titans fast enough when they are standing on a landing pad.
Slightly off topic, but I think relevant to the nay-sayers about this explansion/supplement/add-on, is that this type of up-conversion into bigger machines happens and has happened in other games. When I was in Warma ine, it started out as a few 'jaks and some infantry. Then came the super-warcasters. Then came the Behemoth, towering over the infantry much like a titan does marines. Then came Colossals. It didn't ruin that game, and I don't think Escalation will ruin it for Warhammer. Is a Revenant Titan (900pts) in a 1500 point game gonna be regular? I doubt it, how many good scoring units can you include to do the mission while the Titan sits there and blows up 1 or two things a round. I think for those of us who play the 4000 point games, a huge investment like a Baneblade or Lord of Skulls would be fun. Of course, it's most fun when the opponent has one as well. It's as tasty as two Warlords in CC to see the victor when a Stompa and a Lord of Skulls battle it out.
I should have prefaced this with "I don't have any super heavies, yet." I'm waiting to read the book to see if I can bring in other FW Lords of War that more closely fit my army (CSM), then I'll buy the only one I'll probably own.
Someone start a thread on the sister book "Stronghold Assault". IT has some great ideas, like upgrades for Fortifications. AND can be a counter to that Titan when you think about that Void Missile battery that you can buy. Wanna sink 500 points into a structure, go right ahead I say!
In all seriousness though, I am a casual "Hobby" player, so I could see maybe one or two games against titans.. but I definitely won't be playing EVERY game against a Titan... hopefully others feel the same way.
Everyone loves a Attack on Titan.
SIE SIND DAS ESSEN UND WIR SIND DIE JAEGER!
In seriousness, though, I am disappointed that, as a Chaos player, I can't use a Baneblade. I know Baneblades aren't particularly competitive or even good as far as superheavies go, but I just really like Baneblades and would very much like to have one in my army.
That said, I probably will be using a Baneblade anyway in casual (in other words, all) games.
Please dont... they take most powerful thing with D weapons (or is something better? Im not 100% sure), put against it clearly "unprepared" army and than both of them laughs how ridiculous it is without chaos player trying to make some strategy or VP? Dunno...Im still not conviced that some of LoW are not too destabilizing, but this was just "hey guys, lets make video how its clearly OP, lets make it argument in the style Angry Joe! - yeaaaaah, damned superheavies!" :(
Well, on our next RTT at Dec. 28, we will not allow superheavies. Too many problems for the unprepared and not all participants will have superheavies available.
Was going to make a thread about this, till I saw it. I don't see my question answered, so will ask here.
If I get this book, does it have the rules, and point costs and stats for the units, or do I also have to have the Apocalypse books and it says refer to this book, this page?
Also how many units are in here? Is there anything for Tyranids in here? I thought I read something about a Harridan, but not sure if it was that or something else. Isn't the Harridan, a Forge World unit?
If it is, would this be the first official units from GW to have FW units in a 40K game?
Also can you just show up with the Escalation book and play it as a normal 40K game? I haven't played 6th edition yet, so not sure if this is just you roll and you might get to play this scenario or you and your opponent agree ahead of time to use it?
Thanks in advance all help you guys and galls can give me.
The new book contains the rule set, same as for apoc, data sheets (same pt costs as in the apoc book) for the Baneblade pattern tanks, Thunder hawk, KLoS, Obelisk, Trans. C'tan, Tess. Vault, Stompa, Rev. Titan, Tiger Shark, and Harridan, and a set of six missions.
wuestenfux wrote: The new book contains the rule set, same as for apoc, data sheets (same pt costs as in the apoc book) for the Baneblade pattern tanks, Thunder hawk, KLoS, Obelisk, Trans. C'tan, Tess. Vault, Stompa, Rev. Titan, Tiger Shark, and Harridan, and a set of six missions.
wuestenfux wrote: The new book contains the rule set, same as for apoc, data sheets (same pt costs as in the apoc book) for the Baneblade pattern tanks, Thunder hawk, KLoS, Obelisk, Trans. C'tan, Tess. Vault, Stompa, Rev. Titan, Tiger Shark, and Harridan, and a set of six missions.
Thank you very much for the quick reply.
You're welcome.
Additionally, there are two pages explaining the Lords of War ruleset.
In particular, if your opponent fields a superheavy, your warlord can choose to roll on the escalation warlord traits table instead of one of the normal warlord traits tables.
Please dont... they take most powerful thing with D weapons (or is something better? Im not 100% sure), put against it clearly "unprepared" army and than both of them laughs how ridiculous it is without chaos player trying to make some strategy or VP? Dunno...Im still not conviced that some of LoW are not too destabilizing, but this was just "hey guys, lets make video how its clearly OP, lets make it argument in the style Angry Joe! - yeaaaaah, damned superheavies!" :(
If he took a screamer star and let say DPs instead of the grinders , would he do any better? no . he would die even faster and that was not a unprepared army , it was a nova tournament army with which the demon player did well before . Only thing that saved him from being grinded to dust , was telepathy and puppet master . Without it the dark/elder/tau player would have rolled him hard.
Do you not see it that the fact that D weapons are suddenly legal , ever build that is centered around a death star or combination of two/three units suddenly are as viable as melee dark eldar footsloggers . Or how factions that can take Inquisitors as ally get buffed with cortez forcing re-rolls on other players and giving re-rols to you.
I can imagine that "bad" list playing against my IG. First turn he blows up my russ and manticore . It is not turn one , so I don't have vendetta he is out of range of most of my stuff and has troops hidden or in reservs . turn two he blows up my second russ and starts working on my chimeras. My vendettas come in , he intercepts with his broadsides and riptide . Am av12 just like helldrakes , but am not demon and I can't shot backwards , nor do I have an inv . Good chance I get stuned or shaken. turn three he blows up my chimera and clears my troops . unlike the demon player , I don't have telepathy casters to save me draw.
Please dont... they take most powerful thing with D weapons (or is something better? Im not 100% sure), put against it clearly "unprepared" army and than both of them laughs how ridiculous it is without chaos player trying to make some strategy or VP? Dunno...Im still not conviced that some of LoW are not too destabilizing, but this was just "hey guys, lets make video how its clearly OP, lets make it argument in the style Angry Joe! - yeaaaaah, damned superheavies!" :(
If he took a screamer star and let say DPs instead of the grinders , would he do any better? no . he would die even faster and that was not a unprepared army , it was a nova tournament army with which the demon player did well before . Only thing that saved him from being grinded to dust , was telepathy and puppet master . Without it the dark/elder/tau player would have rolled him hard.
Do you not see it that the fact that D weapons are suddenly legal , ever build that is centered around a death star or combination of two/three units suddenly are as viable as melee dark eldar footsloggers . Or how factions that can take Inquisitors as ally get buffed with cortez forcing re-rolls on other players and giving re-rols to you.
I can imagine that "bad" list playing against my IG. First turn he blows up my russ and manticore . It is not turn one , so I don't have vendetta he is out of range of most of my stuff and has troops hidden or in reservs . turn two he blows up my second russ and starts working on my chimeras. My vendettas come in , he intercepts with his broadsides and riptide . Am av12 just like helldrakes , but am not demon and I can't shot backwards , nor do I have an inv . Good chance I get stuned or shaken. turn three he blows up my chimera and clears my troops . unlike the demon player , I don't have telepathy casters to save me draw.
1 - As you could read, Im not saying this LoW isnt "too much". Its just use of it to make case "every superheavy is same!" - they are not
2 - It was unprepared army. Yeah, it was tournament army. Tournament without LoW. Of course playrs will have to adjust their tactics for eventuality to face LoW. If you are against adaptation, I cant agree with you on basic questions.
3 - You are saying that now are deathstar armies useless because everyone will bring superheavies that will erase them. But, everyone will not bring LoW.
4 - So you already have scenario when you will stand against one particular superheavy with one particular addition (broadside and riptides) and from that you are making case that LoW are bad, bad bad. Sorry, but here I cant make discussion...you simply cant make hypotethical scenario, play it under very specific conditions and make assumptions, its the exactly same problem as with the video.
Personally, I dont know, how will all of the superheavies fit into game - I wrote it already - because there is big difference between them, but reactions that are completely sure it will be bad, without some playing, testing, anything, because "look at the video, look at it!" are simply wrong. Its just... the whole problem is IMO much, much more complicated.
In all seriousness though, I am a casual "Hobby" player, so I could see maybe one or two games against titans.. but I definitely won't be playing EVERY game against a Titan... hopefully others feel the same way.
Everyone loves a Attack on Titan.
I am indeed looking forward to doing an Attack on Titan. My meltas should be useful.
I wonder if grabbing a grappling-hook, getting up to the Titan's head, and cutting it in the neck with a power sword will work?
Screamerstar is crazy. Just because it no longer is a completely amazing nigh-unkillable build doesn't mean that Escalation is therefore bad.
A superheavy is essentially a single-model deathstar. They all cost an awful lot of points and do a lot of damage (like a deathstar). Also, just because a Lord of War has a Strength D weapon does not magically mean that all of the armies' attacks are now Strength D; you're still getting those insane re-rollable 2++s against everything else. Take the Lord of War out before it takes out your deathstar. Steamroll everything.
Seer Council Deathstar doesn't work as well as it did in 5th edition. Does that mean that 6th is bad?
Frozen Ocean wrote: Screamerstar is crazy. Just because it no longer is a completely amazing nigh-unkillable build doesn't mean that Escalation is therefore bad.
A superheavy is essentially a single-model deathstar. They all cost an awful lot of points and do a lot of damage (like a deathstar). Also, just because a Lord of War has a Strength D weapon does not magically mean that all of the armies' attacks are now Strength D; you're still getting those insane re-rollable 2++s against everything else. Take the Lord of War out before it takes out your deathstar. Steamroll everything.
Seer Council Deathstar doesn't work as well as it did in 5th edition. Does that mean that 6th is bad?
It may suck for the Screamerstar, but it sucks a lot more for me and everyone else with "traditional" armies. If I can't kill that thing before turn three, it will have killed four of my units, or six if the opponent went first. Add in the other half of my opponent's army, and I'm pretty much tabled. Add in some decent target priority from the opponent and I'll end up not being able to kill the damn thing at all, and it gets five turns of free reign.
Ad, btw, Seer Councils are waaaaaaay better now than in 5th.
So are these ONLY available in ebook format and not the usual ibook format?
And why does stronghold say it is 'ebook format' but escalation doesn't (when it is)?
I don't like the standard ebook format very much, so it irks me that it seems to be only in that format.
Anyone have any other info about when or if they're coming out in ibook format?
They're actual books too. I own both, and that's why I used images of the books as my article images.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaosvoices wrote: I'm waiting to read the book to see if I can bring in other FW Lords of War that more closely fit my army (CSM), then I'll buy the only one I'll probably own.
Not at the moment. Though FW can just release something saying like "The following are Lords of War in games of Escalation:" and then list a bunch of stuff. It'd really balance out the options a lot more.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote: The new book contains the rule set, same as for apoc, data sheets (same pt costs as in the apoc book) for the Baneblade pattern tanks, Thunder hawk, KLoS, Obelisk, Trans. C'tan, Tess. Vault, Stompa, Rev. Titan, Tiger Shark, and Harridan, and a set of six missions.
6 Altar of War Missions plus 3 Gauntlet Challenge Missions. So 9 total.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Screamerstar is crazy. Just because it no longer is a completely amazing nigh-unkillable build doesn't mean that Escalation is therefore bad.
A superheavy is essentially a single-model deathstar. They all cost an awful lot of points and do a lot of damage (like a deathstar). Also, just because a Lord of War has a Strength D weapon does not magically mean that all of the armies' attacks are now Strength D; you're still getting those insane re-rollable 2++s against everything else. Take the Lord of War out before it takes out your deathstar. Steamroll everything.
Seer Council Deathstar doesn't work as well as it did in 5th edition. Does that mean that 6th is bad?
It may suck for the Screamerstar, but it sucks a lot more for me and everyone else with "traditional" armies. If I can't kill that thing before turn three, it will have killed four of my units, or six if the opponent went first. Add in the other half of my opponent's army, and I'm pretty much tabled. Add in some decent target priority from the opponent and I'll end up not being able to kill the damn thing at all, and it gets five turns of free reign.
Ad, btw, Seer Councils are waaaaaaay better now than in 5th.
It's really not that bad. As others have said, a Baneblade is basically less effective than equivalent points in Leman Russes. If your army can deal with tough armour (and if you don't have melta, something is wrong), it can deal with most of the Lords of War. Remember, that 700pts+ model is 700pts+ that could have been spent elsewhere. 700pts of Fire Warriors would do a lot of damage.
And sorry, I was vaguely intending to collect Eldar at some point during 5th, and sort of remember people talking about Seer Councils in a good way. And then relatively recently I heard somewhere that they aren't as effective anymore (I think it was in a batrep). The point is, just because one deathstar is made less effective because of something, doesn't automatically make that something bad.
"My Land Raider army is really good against this guy who only runs lasgun Guardsmen on foot, but once a Dark Eldar played killed me with a heat lance. Therefore the DE codex is OP and bad."
It's really not that bad. As others have said, a Baneblade is basically less effective than equivalent points in Leman Russes. If your army can deal with tough armour (and if you don't have melta, something is wrong), it can deal with most of the Lords of War. Remember, that 700pts+ model is 700pts+ that could have been spent elsewhere. 700pts of Fire Warriors would do a lot of damage.
I dare you to kill my Transcendent C'Tan (720 points) with 720 points of Fire Warriors !
I dare you to kill my Transcendent C'Tan (720 points) with 720 points of Fire Warriors !
I'm too lazy to do the math, but it shouldn't be a big problem for the FW to kill an superheavy with a 3+ save and two wounds more than a normal C'tan.
I dare you to kill my Transcendent C'Tan (720 points) with 720 points of Fire Warriors !
I'm too lazy to do the math, but it shouldn't be a big problem for the FW to kill an superheavy with a 3+ save and two wounds more than a normal C'tan.
On the grounds it's T9 and they can't even hurt it, I'd say it'll be quite a large problem actually.
I dare you to kill my Transcendent C'Tan (720 points) with 720 points of Fire Warriors !
I'm too lazy to do the math, but it shouldn't be a big problem for the FW to kill an superheavy with a 3+ save and two wounds more than a normal C'tan.
On the grounds it's T9 and they can't even hurt it, I'd say it'll be quite a large problem actually.
The table seems kind of weird, since S4 can hurt T7, where 7 = 2*4 - 1.
Since 9 = 2*5 - 1, S5 should be able to hurt T9.
The ranking is S+3 to the maximum T you can wound. Also, the Transcendent C'Tan also has FnP so those 720 points of FW could barely do 3 wounds/turn even if they could wound the C'Tan on 6+. Ad then the C'Tan uses his magical 18" D move and D Hellstorm template and S6 AP 2 Hellstorm template attacks and kills the Tau army.
Also, snipers only wound the C'tan on 6+. Poisoned weapons too.
Please dont... they take most powerful thing with D weapons (or is something better? Im not 100% sure), put against it clearly "unprepared" army and than both of them laughs how ridiculous it is without chaos player trying to make some strategy or VP? Dunno...Im still not conviced that some of LoW are not too destabilizing, but this was just "hey guys, lets make video how its clearly OP, lets make it argument in the style Angry Joe! - yeaaaaah, damned superheavies!" :(
I love playing pick-up games with all comer lists. I don't like building a army based on what i know my oppent is bringing/playing because if i win i don't feel like I won it by being a better player. I one it by out rock-paper-scissor'ing my opponent.
That video bassicly shows why that thought process is dead in the water now. A oppent could bassicly just drop that into a game and yuck it up. Because I know for a fact none of my "all comer lists" could deal with that. All my time in 5th, even when i know the game was going to be a bad match up anyway, I would still play the pick up game to challenge myself.
For the 1st time, I know for a fact I will have to refuse to play people if they start pulling out certain super heavies.
The table seems kind of weird, since S4 can hurt T7, where 7 = 2*4 - 1.
Since 9 = 2*5 - 1, S5 should be able to hurt T9.
The ranking is S+3 to the maximum T you can wound. Also, the Transcendent C'Tan also has FnP so those 720 points of FW could barely do 3 wounds/turn even if they could wound the C'Tan on 6+. Ad then the C'Tan uses his magical 18" D move and D Hellstorm template and S6 AP 2 Hellstorm template attacks and kills the Tau army.
Also, snipers only wound the C'tan on 6+. Poisoned weapons too.
Right, S+3 to the max. T. Tau armies often have S6 or higher weapons to target a T9 monster. God forbid! A C'tan in range with the two hellstorm template can annihilate a whole army when bunched up.
They work normally (praise God) but you need some ~40 grav shots to kill the C'Tan.
Also, from Tau the best you can get for 720 points is 14 Crisis suits (using Farsight Enclaves) with double fusion blasters. They will cause 1.5 wounds/turn...
It's really not that bad. As others have said, a Baneblade is basically less effective than equivalent points in Leman Russes. If your army can deal with tough armour (and if you don't have melta, something is wrong), it can deal with most of the Lords of War. Remember, that 700pts+ model is 700pts+ that could have been spent elsewhere. 700pts of Fire Warriors would do a lot of damage.
I dare you to kill my Transcendent C'Tan (720 points) with 720 points of Fire Warriors !
You know that's not how it works, and I said Fire Warriors just as an example. Also, I didn't think the Transcendant C'tan was in Escalation? Also, everyone knows that the TC'tan is crazy powerful!
It's really not that bad. As others have said, a Baneblade is basically less effective than equivalent points in Leman Russes. If your army can deal with tough armour (and if you don't have melta, something is wrong), it can deal with most of the Lords of War. Remember, that 700pts+ model is 700pts+ that could have been spent elsewhere. 700pts of Fire Warriors would do a lot of damage.
I dare you to kill my Transcendent C'Tan (720 points) with 720 points of Fire Warriors !
You know that's not how it works, and I said Fire Warriors just as an example. Also, I didn't think the Transcendant C'tan was in Escalation? Also, everyone knows that the TC'tan is crazy powerful!
The Transcendant C'Tan is in Escalation. And it was just an example .
Please dont... they take most powerful thing with D weapons (or is something better? Im not 100% sure), put against it clearly "unprepared" army and than both of them laughs how ridiculous it is without chaos player trying to make some strategy or VP? Dunno...Im still not conviced that some of LoW are not too destabilizing, but this was just "hey guys, lets make video how its clearly OP, lets make it argument in the style Angry Joe! - yeaaaaah, damned superheavies!" :(
I love playing pick-up games with all comer lists. I don't like building a army based on what i know my oppent is bringing/playing because if i win i don't feel like I won it by being a better player. I one it by out rock-paper-scissor'ing my opponent.
That video bassicly shows why that thought process is dead in the water now. A oppent could bassicly just drop that into a game and yuck it up. Because I know for a fact none of my "all comer lists" could deal with that. All my time in 5th, even when i know the game was going to be a bad match up anyway, I would still play the pick up game to challenge myself.
For the 1st time, I know for a fact I will have to refuse to play people if they start pulling out certain super heavies.
I agree with you with building all around army. But for me it means counting with as many enemy types as possible. I cant guess about what my army would do to the list, because it depends on points, but for me its about countering specific threats...but it also coincides with my rather defensive counter strategy. I still think that people do not count enough the victory points in the LoW and fact, it swallow so many points and has limited number of attacks.
But also, I guess the more points the more powerful LoW is. IMO bringin it for example on 1000pts is suicide,
So as long as we aren't counting D weapons and your opponent is fully kitted out to take down a Titan or flying fortress then Escalation is decently balanced.
Please dont... they take most powerful thing with D weapons (or is something better? Im not 100% sure), put against it clearly "unprepared" army and than both of them laughs how ridiculous it is without chaos player trying to make some strategy or VP? Dunno...Im still not conviced that some of LoW are not too destabilizing, but this was just "hey guys, lets make video how its clearly OP, lets make it argument in the style Angry Joe! - yeaaaaah, damned superheavies!" :(
I love playing pick-up games with all comer lists. I don't like building a army based on what i know my oppent is bringing/playing because if i win i don't feel like I won it by being a better player. I one it by out rock-paper-scissor'ing my opponent.
That video bassicly shows why that thought process is dead in the water now. A oppent could bassicly just drop that into a game and yuck it up. Because I know for a fact none of my "all comer lists" could deal with that. All my time in 5th, even when i know the game was going to be a bad match up anyway, I would still play the pick up game to challenge myself.
For the 1st time, I know for a fact I will have to refuse to play people if they start pulling out certain super heavies.
I agree with you with building all around army. But for me it means counting with as many enemy types as possible. I cant guess about what my army would do to the list, because it depends on points, but for me its about countering specific threats...but it also coincides with my rather defensive counter strategy. I still think that people do not count enough the victory points in the LoW and fact, it swallow so many points and has limited number of attacks.
But also, I guess the more points the more powerful LoW is. IMO bringin it for example on 1000pts is suicide,
I agree with you on stuff like the baneblade. Problem is not all lord of war are made equal.
I'm still baffled that Tau only got the bad Tigershark with transport capacity for drones, because drones really needed a flying super heavy transport.
wuestenfux wrote: The new book contains the rule set, same as for apoc, data sheets (same pt costs as in the apoc book) for the Baneblade pattern tanks, Thunder hawk, KLoS, Obelisk, Trans. C'tan, Tess. Vault, Stompa, Rev. Titan, Tiger Shark, and Harridan, and a set of six missions.
What no skullhamma? Orks have a baneblade ripoff. That would seem more reasonable in points cost at least.
wuestenfux wrote: The new book contains the rule set, same as for apoc, data sheets (same pt costs as in the apoc book) for the Baneblade pattern tanks, Thunder hawk, KLoS, Obelisk, Trans. C'tan, Tess. Vault, Stompa, Rev. Titan, Tiger Shark, and Harridan, and a set of six missions.
Thank you very much for the quick reply.
You're welcome.
Additionally, there are two pages explaining the Lords of War ruleset.
In particular, if your opponent fields a superheavy, your warlord can choose to roll on the escalation warlord traits table instead of one of the normal warlord traits tables.
Unless your warlord is a special character with set rules, then you are boned.
I need to ask one question, I haven't find time to read the whole threads about escalation. Please can someone answer me if this new book is free for anyone to play or should you agree if the enemy plays it? I mean am I going to play at my LGS and find out another kid with new escalation super 40k end killer list with titans ruin the competitiveness of the game?
One thing people appear to be misreading is that the special Esculation Warlords Table can be used by both sides if they both have Lords of War, not just fi you don't have one and are fighting one.
Its very annoying that the Adepta Sororitas get nothing from this book..........
Its a bit wierd the Dark Eldar using Revenants............which seem very very good.
only if you play a special character , your warlord trait is fixed and you can't switch it to the escalation one and a lot of the tables are rolle for only in the special scenarios from the book.
Makumba wrote: only if you play a special character , your warlord trait is fixed and you can't switch it to the escalation one and a lot of the tables are rolle for only in the special scenarios from the book.
losing scout is acceptable for my white scars, but what about armies that have no choice? What about deathwing or ravenwing, who need characters like belial. Or the farsight enclaves, you have to take ovesa.
Poor planning for this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I was told that superheavies are immune to tesla and grav weapons. Are they only mostly unharmed by sniper shots now?
Well I was told that superheavies can't be effected by weapons with a str stat.
I love the escalation warlord table. For marines or tau it could be cool . prefared enemy or armor bane in melee , no scater when you deep strike 6" away from the super heavy. Not so awesome when your warlord has geq stats. The one turn rending +ap1 on all weapon is the only one cool , but it is one turn only and your warlord has to be alive to use it .
I see where if you use the eldar titan with what 4 strength d large blast shots will be broken and destroy most armies but not counting that titan and using say baneblades or shadow swords would the game still be broken?
I mean a shadow swords main weapon is its volcano cannon with 1 strength d large blast at bs3 and if you take sponsons you now add on 2 twinlinked heavy bolters for a total of 3(it already has one stock) and then you get 2 lascannons (not twinlinked). Is this really broken in say 1850-2k? I mean its just a russ with better rear armor and a stronger large blast.
So looking at pros and cons I personally think it would be stupid to bring a lord of war in low points as thats where I see it unreasonably unfair. So for this I would say use escalation rules at 1750+.
The tank itself is 500 some points which will tank a good chunk out of your army then you have your hq and troops you need as well. So say in 1750 you take a shadowsword with sponsons, a CCS, and 2 vet squads and because vendettas can almost be argued into every IG list then add 2 vendettas and you only have 795 points left? not including any special weapons on your guys and that leaves one of your squads without a transport.
So for this point just to take a super heavy you are looking at using a bit of points.
Most people argue that the Battle tank is terrible as if your opponent is "properly spaced" then you will kill maybe 4 models? well shadow sword has the same large blast(except it really kills whatever it hits)(unless it rolls a one)
The tank is bs3 so there is a good chance that large blast is scattering.
both lascannons are bs3 so effectively only 1 should hit a turn and guess what 3 twinlinked heavy bolters, well unless its got a 4+or worse save I dont see them being effective.
Pod heavy armies would tear this tank open easily. Or any army that can get melta across the board easily.
I didnt read much else in the book but the person without a LoW gets bonus points for removing hull points and can get a roll on a new warlord table.
So aside from the eldar titan and playing in 1750+ would a super heavy really be OP?
I believe its almost impossible for a persons army to be able to counter every army in the game so I someone brough a LoW and you werent prepared then of course you may lose.
Also a question I didnt get the escalation book so I havent read through it but I didnt get the stronghold assault book. Im pretty sure the stronghold book says that those are updated rules to the game that are allowed in 40k games but is that the same with escalation? Is it an expansion like apoc or is it just a standard rule now that armies have the option for a LoW?
I think you can make many of the Lords of War even more scary with Divination? It certainly helped a Warhound in a recent battle - and I can;t see anything any more about Superheavies ignoring Psychic powers - although they are pretty much immune now to Scrabs which is good
Page 34: "If you wish, you can take a Lords of War detachment when choosing your force. This is an optional detachment just like Fortifications and Allied detachments, as shown in the Force Organization Chart opposite."
Basically, your Primary Detachment, which is required consists of a minimum of 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Everything else is considered optional including Lords of War.
On the plus side, if you are facing off against armies with 2+/2++ rerollable saves, you now have access to things that can handle them.
However, just like anything else, this can get horribly abused as well.
But, to be clear, it's perfectly legit to bring it to a regular game of 40K. It will be up to your opponent whether he/she wants to play against it which is just like any other game of 40K you play.
Well, after looking through Escalation it's pretty cool. I know I was mad about it before, but whatever. I'd still never expect an opponent to play one without asking, and I'd be up for the challenge to face one if asked.
Revenants are fairly cheap too, so I'd imagine they'll be getting some views.
I'm hoping that FW releases some more options for the Lord of War slot, could be interesting.
It's meant for fun, and if you can take it in the sense that it is released great. Before I was judging it too harshly, it's something to add a challenge to a 40K game, no one is going to out rightly demand to play with a Lord of War, I mean come on.
I too was surprised SoB didn't get anything, but I'm sure that they'll probably gain access to something as Forge World continues to make books.
Tournaments will just ban them, so it's not a big deal. That video is... whatever, I will be spending more of my Dakka time away from the 'tournament' threads. D-weapons stink, but everything else we should just tolerate... oh well.
Play the game for fun, and if your opponent brings a Lord of War, talk to them about it as I would talk to an opponent about bringing it. Let's not blow this thing out of proportion.
For IG our only way of getting prescience is inquisitor for 55 points or allying in a marine which then adds the librarians cost with then his troop tax. But if you do that then you have a lone psyker out there and pretty much the best way to guard him in an IG army is with a blob which then adds more of a tax on your army and then if you want close combat weapons, special weapons or heavy weapons it continues to add points to your army. But like a said before you can twinlink that shadow swords large blast but if your opponent is spaced out you wont be hitting many models.
Bjørn Berg Olsen Please tell me Escalation requires consent?
Answered:
Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hi Bjørn,
As with all our rules, they are as official as you decide to make them.
The intent is that they be used in regular games of Warhammer 40,000, but I'd hope no-one is going to force you to play a game you don't want to.
- Eddie
Of course this will be debated and argued about forever anyway....
So it sounds like---- if a tourny allows it then you will have to play against the opposing enemy super heavy or just lose(but just being reasonable Im pretty sure tournies will ban the book just like how there is 1999+1 games to not allow double FOC)
IF you are playing a pick up game and your opponent brings one then you obviously have the option to say "hey I dont want to play against that, so dont use it or I wont play you"
Seems the main problem is neither d-weapons or super-heavies being allowed, but rather that some of those super-heavies are grossly undercosted. As mentioned, a shadowsword is hardly that great, a single large blast is not very scary for infantry. Sure, sucks for land raiders and riptides, but for 500+ pts, the damage output is mediocre.
In all seriousness though, I am a casual "Hobby" player, so I could see maybe one or two games against titans.. but I definitely won't be playing EVERY game against a Titan... hopefully others feel the same way.
Everyone loves a Attack on Titan.
SIE SIND DAS ESSEN UND WIR SIND DIE JAEGER!
In seriousness, though, I am disappointed that, as a Chaos player, I can't use a Baneblade. I know Baneblades aren't particularly competitive or even good as far as superheavies go, but I just really like Baneblades and would very much like to have one in my army.
That said, I probably will be using a Baneblade anyway in casual (in other words, all) games.
Illumini wrote: Seems the main problem is neither d-weapons or super-heavies being allowed, but rather that some of those super-heavies are grossly undercosted. As mentioned, a shadowsword is hardly that great, a single large blast is not very scary for infantry. Sure, sucks for land raiders and riptides, but for 500+ pts, the damage output is mediocre.
Right.
I found that the Stormlord (I guess its the right name) is more scary, since it has a 10'' blast, S10, AP1, ignoring cover. It blasts away all your units behind an Aegis in one volley as seen in our last apoc battle.
I think what depresses me the most about the Escalation book is the fact that GW has decided to make, almost unannounced changes to the core rules.
This, coming without any notice and barely a year after 6th edition dropped (which had big changes itself e.g. overwatch and flyers) is, to me, rather infuriating.
I understand that GW is a business, and needs to be a profitable one for its shareholders, but it just seems like they're trying to push too many products in too short a time, and without enough notice.
Sorry if this seems like a rant, but I've play 40k since the 90's and I just get frustrated at GW's current way of force-feeding us updates month after month.
tankboy145 wrote: Yea I would agree that D weapons dont belong as you can drop monstrous creatures and vehicles like nothing. But when you play against a unit with a rerollable 2+ cover or invuln then the game is just stupid and a D weapon is the perfect solution!
I'm of the opinion that two wrong's don't make a right. Yes, it is a counter to the 2+ reroll invuls. But if one badly designed thing marginalizes normal units and play, then adding a second thing that marginalizes normal units and play doesn't necessarily reduce the problem, it just marginalizes farther. And the game becomes about these units even more.
Escalation is a good name for this book. Do I need to remind people that the word escalation is almost always used negatively, e.g. nuclear escalation. One person has them so others get them, and conventional armies become less relevant.
Pretty much. Its ony going to increase problems.
The pretend problem of 2++ deathstars in casual 40k is so off the charts that people need to bring super heavies to prevent that from ever happening? C'mon guys, I know its the internet but you cant be that stupid. No tournament worth its salt will allow super heavies, and a majority of tournaments are looking into the 2++ deathstars.
And really, why are you playing against that stuff anyway? And do you really think the guy at your store is going to be all "Oh boy Strength D, I'll just pull out my screamerstar list because this will work totally in my favour!".
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Dirty Harry wrote: I think what depresses me the most about the Escalation book is the fact that GW has decided to make, almost unannounced changes to the core rules.
This, coming without any notice and barely a year after 6th edition dropped (which had big changes itself e.g. overwatch and flyers) is, to me, rather infuriating.
I understand that GW is a business, and needs to be a profitable one for its shareholders, but it just seems like they're trying to push too many products in too short a time, and without enough notice.
Sorry if this seems like a rant, but I've play 40k since the 90's and I just get frustrated at GW's current way of force-feeding us updates month after month.
Harry.
Honestly dude, don't worry about it, this will go away and wont see the light of day unless your buddy wants to have a "dumb game". Talk to anyone in real life and their face says it all.
Bjørn Berg Olsen Please tell me Escalation requires consent?
Answered:
Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hi Bjørn,
As with all our rules, they are as official as you decide to make them.
The intent is that they be used in regular games of Warhammer 40,000, but I'd hope no-one is going to force you to play a game you don't want to.
- Eddie
Of course this will be debated and argued about forever anyway....
I've never understood people who get hung up in what's official or not. GW can't force anyone to use Escalation, and they can't stop people from making house rules. Same goes for tournaments. What GW says is irrelevant, the rules pack tells you what goes.
I've never understood people who get hung up in what's official or not. GW can't force anyone to use Escalation, and they can't stop people from making house rules. Same goes for tournaments. What GW says is irrelevant, the rules pack tells you what goes.
Exactly, no one is forcing you to play the game. If you don't want to play against Tau you don't have to either. And I highly doubt this will be a thing, it'll be done a few times then get buried, especially after tournaments ban it into the ground.
I won't mind giving it a go sometimes. However I do not want super heavy units shoved in my face all the time or just appearing in what I thought was a normal friendly game. Having to argue with friends about this thing will mean that it is not worth it.
Thud wrote: I've never understood people who get hung up in what's official or not. GW can't force anyone to use Escalation, and they can't stop people from making house rules. Same goes for tournaments. What GW says is irrelevant, the rules pack tells you what goes.
Not only can GW not prevent house rules, they encourage them too. Spirit of the Game mentions adding your own stuff to the game, and page 108 mentions you can use army lists from your own system.
As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
Because many people play 40k as a pickup game with random strangers, and this is yet another step of negotiation required. The general expectation is that you play against whatever (legal) army your opponent brings, and the more restrictions you place on what you're willing to play against the less likely you are to find anyone interested in playing with you.
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
Because many people play 40k as a pickup game with random strangers, and this is yet another step of negotiation required. The general expectation is that you play against whatever (legal) army your opponent brings, and the more restrictions you place on what you're willing to play against the less likely you are to find anyone interested in playing with you.
From the get go it's all negotiation. What point size you want, how you want to set up the table, determine deployment and missions, if you want or don't want FW, if you're allowing Double-FOC, what kind of competetive level you want, ect.
Seriously it's all a negotiation from the start no matter what, so adding in something like this isn't that hard. And realistically it's better for everyone involved if everyone is 100% upfront about what they want from their games instead of hiding behind excuses that this is somehow more inconvenient and the new thing that is "killing the game".
I swear new 40k stuff is like Facebook changes: everyone goes into a tizzy for a couple of weeks and then everyone moves on about it and accepts it as the way things are. Rinse, repeat forever.
The problem, in my opinion, with D-Weapons in normal games is that it renders so much of the armies bland and meaningless. Tanks, whether rhinos or landraiders will get popped just as quickly, as will infantry, whether paladins or grots.
The only things that are relevant are the titan, the few things that can kill the titan, and minimum cost scoring units. Draigowing is dead, screamerstar is dead, Seer Council is dead, anything that remotely resembles a small, elite army is dead.
So much flavor of the game vanishes under a pummeling from the D.
There is already too much that has to be houseruled as it is in a standard pick up game. Luckily most people already assume that you're going to place fortifications after terrain and ignore the mysterious terrain/objectives.
The real problem is that when you have to houserule to stop people from taking perfectly legal units, you become that guy. "Oh you can finally take your Eldar titan in more games now? Sorry I don't want to play that."
This is what really pisses me off about the whole thing. Because GW is so reckless with their supplements, and fortifications, and detachments, and allies, and now their Lords of War; now I have to step in and make up my own personal preference on what I want to play against. I may as well just hand my opponent a list of acceptable lists at that point.
But that's not what I want. I want a simple game where I can make a TAC list for each of the major points and not have to swap things out when up against a Titan. I don't want to tell other people what to run as much as I don't want people telling me what to run.
Hey guys, do you think that as a Dark Angel player the thunderhawk could make up for our terrible lack of flyers?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually it seems like it could be really good for dark angels. You're only allowed to put units from one of the codexes able to use a transport, so that rules on inquisition in a normal space marine thunderhawk. This means that dark angels would be the only ones with access to divination, and all the goodies that come with it. IE invuln saves and prescience on superheavy transports.
Niexist wrote: This means that dark angels would be the only ones with access to divination, and all the goodies that come with it. IE invuln saves and prescience on superheavy transports.
You can't cast psychic powers from inside a transport, and if you're outside the transport any battle brothers army can cast powers on the transport itself.
Niexist wrote: This means that dark angels would be the only ones with access to divination, and all the goodies that come with it. IE invuln saves and prescience on superheavy transports.
You can't cast psychic powers from inside a transport, and if you're outside the transport any battle brothers army can cast powers on the transport itself.
Actually I'm pretty sure that a unit inside a transport can cast psychic powers on its own unit, and the transport itself.
The problem, in my opinion, with D-Weapons in normal games is that it renders so much of the armies bland and meaningless. Tanks, whether rhinos or landraiders will get popped just as quickly, as will infantry, whether paladins or grots.
The only things that are relevant are the titan, the few things that can kill the titan, and minimum cost scoring units. Draigowing is dead, screamerstar is dead, Seer Council is dead, anything that remotely resembles a small, elite army is dead.
So much flavor of the game vanishes under a pummeling from the D.
I hope for a ban in tournament play.
Does it really kill these armies? I already listed how if your opponent being IG takes a shadow sword it isnt that effective. Seriously if your worried SPREAD OUT! If your opponent bring an eldar titan with 4 strength d large blasts then sure you may as well resign but why not read my last post? I personally think the only super heavy that ruins escalation is the eldar one.
Okay a shadow sword has strength d its 1 large blast shot at bs3, average scatter is 7inches, if you are super worried spread all your units out 2 inches apart and the large blast should only kill what 4 guys? and if it fires at a transport then okay it blows up 1 transport a turn and then if it fires at the guys inside it should only kill 4.
This is also assuming the strength d doesnt roll a 1 or scatter terribly off, think about it for 1 turn if that cannon scatters way off since its only bs 3 that 505 points gone! only one of the lascannons should hit a turn and thats not including an invuln or cover save and then that leave 3 twinlinked heavy bolters to make up 505 points for a turn.
Can anyone clarify as to what the warlord table is if your opponent takes a super heavy? it also gives up1 vp for every 3 hull points take off.
Its like I said before not every army has a counter to every army, you will see armies that you arent prepared for and you will lose. But is everyone and their friend going to go out and buy a super heavy now???? no! the only reason I even have 1 shadow sword is because my friends all pitched in as a gift. Not everyone have 120 bucks to just go out and drop money on a model especially since most tournies require a painted standard.
Also like I said before, tournies saw double FOC as over powered so they created 1999+1 do you really believe tournies will allow super heavies??? most will probably ban them as most tournies dont acknowledge gw expansions like cities of death.
Like I said I personally see at 1750+ the eldar titan is the only broken unit in escalation so far with its 4 strength d weapons but I dont see that as reason to completely bash everything else in escalation and say its terrible for allowing super heavies in a game. If you play a game of 1500pts or less and allow your opponent to bring a super heavy and you dont have one then you are asking to lose. But once you get to higher point games your army should have some sort of anti tank, if not then thats what your army lacks and will suffer from, Not every army can handle everything.
As an IG player I like running mass infantry with some russ support but when I played against eldar with their rerolling 2+ cover and against daemons with a 2++ I thought it was slowed that for competitive I basically need to take artillery and vendettas in order to to good. ive played casual games against friends and havent used vendettas or artillery and its sad that IG is so poor without those units in order for it to be competitive.
Sorry for the rant, long night but I personally believe if you play in a reasonable point value without using the eldar titan then escalation could be a nice twist to some games. If you start using LoW at low points and all your opponents start using the eldar titans then you might have a bad time.
I know for a fact I wont be going out to buy this titan and I know not everyone in the world will go out and buy it so there will obviously be lists without superheavies and their will be some with super heavies but not all armies will have them and as said most tournies will probably ban them.
I've never understood people who get hung up in what's official or not. GW can't force anyone to use Escalation, and they can't stop people from making house rules. Same goes for tournaments. What GW says is irrelevant, the rules pack tells you what goes.
Exactly, no one is forcing you to play the game. If you don't want to play against Tau you don't have to either. And I highly doubt this will be a thing, it'll be done a few times then get buried, especially after tournaments ban it into the ground.
Otherwise you get games like this:
On the upside you'll be able to get like 10-15 games a day...
Well, at least it can be a great laugh if somebody fields a Rev. Titan. With puppet master, this guy killed almost everthing on the table. Indeed, four D 5'' blasts, that's ridiculous.
As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
There is no rule that says you can say no thanks and lists are shown after the game , so you will see your opponent has a D weapon armed unit when he deploys it . You can of course drop the game when he deploys , but this means you just took a trip to where ever you play for nothing . for me that is 2 hours here and there by bus .
. Seriously if your worried SPREAD OUT! If your opponent bring an eldar titan with 4 strength d large blasts then sure you may as well resign but why not read my last post? I personally think the only super heavy that ruins escalation is the eldar one.
how do I spread a single manticor or a lemman russ ? he is more or less killing two tanks per turn or he can kill my vet chimeras . And before you say play footslogger blob IG , then I would like to point out that this army loses to tau and eldar , because it is too slow.
Its like I said before not every army has a counter to every army, you will see armies that you arent prepared for and you will lose.
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
Because many people play 40k as a pickup game with random strangers, and this is yet another step of negotiation required. The general expectation is that you play against whatever (legal) army your opponent brings, and the more restrictions you place on what you're willing to play against the less likely you are to find anyone interested in playing with you.
Completely agree. Also, the more things you tell your opponent they can't use or you wont play them, the more petty and obsessed with winning you appear. If you say: "I wont play you unless you don't use Tau, or Riptides, or X" everyone here should be able to grasp the principle that you sound like you just want to nerf your opponent and are blackmailing them into playing how you want. Why do some here think there is a difference with superheavies? Same principle, no difference. We don't want to face them and we don't want to seem like dicks for saying 'if you don't let me remove things from your army, you don't get to play'.
There's an expectation amongst most, rightly or wrongly, that what GW says is okay is the default. Defaults matter, they set expectations and determine whether something is 'normal' or you're asking your opponent to do something special just for you. Many of also enjoy a competitive angle to the game (and that's not just tourneys) - for that, an official set of rules is almost a requirement because it becomes: 'I want to use my best stuff' and 'well only because I played with one baneblade tied behind my back'.
Surely the above argument is understandable and there's nothing in there that is not factual. So why the antagonism?
No it isn't. That's the point. You agree on a points limit for that battle based on how many midels you have and how lomg you want to play. That's basically it. What this sort of stuff does, is FORCE it to be a negotiation with all the negatives that brings - starting a potentially antagonistic process with a stranger or even a friend (no, you're not allowed to use your new model because I say so and I know better than GW about what things should be costed at), additional delay, harder to play competitively when you begin the session by one side removing troops the other side doesn't like, etc.
I swear new 40k stuff is like Facebook changes: everyone goes into a tizzy for a couple of weeks and then everyone moves on about it and accepts it as the way things are. Rinse, repeat forever.
Or maybe not everyone plays in the same environment with the same people who share their same tastes with you.
Like I said I personally see at 1750+ the eldar titan is the only broken unit in escalation so far with its 4 strength d weapons but I dont see that as reason to completely bash everything else in escalation and say its terrible for allowing super heavies in a game. If you play a game of 1500pts or less and allow your opponent to bring a super heavy and you dont have one then you are asking to lose. But once you get to higher point games your army should have some sort of anti tank, if not then thats what your army lacks and will suffer from, Not every army can handle everything.
Sorry for the rant, long night but I personally believe if you play in a reasonable point value without using the eldar titan then escalation could be a nice twist to some games. If you start using LoW at low points and all your opponents start using the eldar titans then you might have a bad time.
I know for a fact I wont be going out to buy this titan and I know not everyone in the world will go out and buy it so there will obviously be lists without superheavies and their will be some with super heavies but not all armies will have them and as said most tournies will probably ban them.
Like I said I personally see at 1750+ the eldar titan is the only broken unit in escalation so far with its 4 strength d weapons but I dont see that as reason to completely bash everything else in escalation and say its terrible for allowing super heavies in a game. If you play a game of 1500pts or less and allow your opponent to bring a super heavy and you dont have one then you are asking to lose. But once you get to higher point games your army should have some sort of anti tank, if not then thats what your army lacks and will suffer from, Not every army can handle everything.
Sorry for the rant, long night but I personally believe if you play in a reasonable point value without using the eldar titan then escalation could be a nice twist to some games. If you start using LoW at low points and all your opponents start using the eldar titans then you might have a bad time.
I know for a fact I wont be going out to buy this titan and I know not everyone in the world will go out and buy it so there will obviously be lists without superheavies and their will be some with super heavies but not all armies will have them and as said most tournies will probably ban them.
This and this. I completely agree.
It's unfortunate, because Escalation had a lot of potential. Even within the Lords of War, there is terrible imbalance. It looks like the Transcendent C'tan and Revenant Titan are just going to dominate everything. LoWs like Baneblades and Shadowswords are fine, maybe even Stompas, but when the Revenant is on the field, you may as well just play Apocalypse instead.
As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
There is no rule that says you can say no thanks and lists are shown after the game , so you will see your opponent has a D weapon armed unit when he deploys it . You can of course drop the game when he deploys , but this means you just took a trip to where ever you play for nothing . for me that is 2 hours here and there by bus .
. Seriously if your worried SPREAD OUT! If your opponent bring an eldar titan with 4 strength d large blasts then sure you may as well resign but why not read my last post? I personally think the only super heavy that ruins escalation is the eldar one.
how do I spread a single manticor or a lemman russ ? he is more or less killing two tanks per turn or he can kill my vet chimeras . And before you say play footslogger blob IG , then I would like to point out that this army loses to tau and eldar , because it is too slow.
Its like I said before not every army has a counter to every army, you will see armies that you arent prepared for and you will lose.
taudar and demons do.
Congrats you spent 505pts of a shadowsword to kill 1 manticore(which should be hidden out of sight so idk why its even being shot at) so you trade 505pts to kill 160...nice And thats the same for a russ, a fully kitted out russ is about 210pts, congrats you had a good trade off. Not counting that you may roll a 1 and only do a pen or you may scatter terrubly off.
No im not suggesting foot guard but Im saying spread your vehicles out so he can only kill 1, okay he fires at a chimera loaded with vets or a rhino of marines, Wow 505pts just amazingly killed off 35 or 55pts!
And awesome taudar and daemons now dont, im glad, as an IG player its sad that if I want to play competitively I have to take specific units like Vendettas and Manticores. I should be able to take any unit I want and play a game strategically and win. But no theres armies that have reroll 2++ that can just run around absorb all shots and roll people, I dont think theirs much tactic in those armies except for keeping the one unit alive that gives the bonus. If that its almost impossible to do so!
As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
There is no rule that says you can say no thanks and lists are shown after the game , so you will see your opponent has a D weapon armed unit when he deploys it . You can of course drop the game when he deploys , but this means you just took a trip to where ever you play for nothing . for me that is 2 hours here and there by bus .
Wrong. Spirit of the Game on page 8. Games are supposed to be an enjoyable experience for everyone. Not everyone likes watching their army get skulldragged across the table. Communication about what you want is paramount in ensuring you actually try and make the game fun for both people.
And how is turning down D-Weapons any different than turning down a Double-FOC army, or a Triptide army? No one can force anyone else to play and anyone who likes to try and surprise his opponents with a Lord of War is likely going to be having trouble finding games.
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
Because many people play 40k as a pickup game with random strangers, and this is yet another step of negotiation required. The general expectation is that you play against whatever (legal) army your opponent brings, and the more restrictions you place on what you're willing to play against the less likely you are to find anyone interested in playing with you.
Completely agree. Also, the more things you tell your opponent they can't use or you wont play them, the more petty and obsessed with winning you appear. If you say: "I wont play you unless you don't use Tau, or Riptides, or X" everyone here should be able to grasp the principle that you sound like you just want to nerf your opponent and are blackmailing them into playing how you want. Why do some here think there is a difference with superheavies? Same principle, no difference. We don't want to face them and we don't want to seem like dicks for saying 'if you don't let me remove things from your army, you don't get to play'.
I'm not claiming that you need a long list of things you don't want to play with or should be trying to strong arm anyone into anything. But turning down games that have D-Weapons is no more unreasonable than turning down games in 5th against IG Leafblower armies.
knas ser wrote: There's an expectation amongst most, rightly or wrongly, that what GW says is okay is the default. Defaults matter, they set expectations and determine whether something is 'normal' or you're asking your opponent to do something special just for you. Many of also enjoy a competitive angle to the game (and that's not just tourneys) - for that, an official set of rules is almost a requirement because it becomes: 'I want to use my best stuff' and 'well only because I played with one baneblade tied behind my back'.
GW's default is "we're giving you all these options, so play what you like and have fun!" the community instead acts like everything that is legal must be used every game.
Did you know there is a note that talks about just agreeing to play certain missions with your opponent instead of rolling for them in Escalation? It's not a rule, but an option presented for people. But if you "have" to play the rules (which are only just a framework, not a concrete structure, again Spirit of the Game) then you can't do that, now can you?
GW flies loose with the restrictions because they're not trying to write people into corners and prevent them from playing, or not playing anything they want too. Farsight with Ethereals? Sure, now you can represent the time before he went rogue! An army of Plague Zombies? Typhus has obviously turned the masses on this planet against the defenders. Ect.
This game isn't a strict checklist of things you must do, but a loose collections of ideas you can do.
knas ser wrote: Surely the above argument is understandable and there's nothing in there that is not factual. So why the antagonism?
It wasn't antagonism, it's how I really feel whenever the doomsayers come out. Everything always ruins the game...for about two to three weeks then we mostly move on and stop worrying about it. I was just commenting that the first thing people do is cry the game is ruined, the last is actually wanting to talk to their opponents.
No it isn't. That's the point. You agree on a points limit for that battle based on how many midels you have and how lomg you want to play. That's basically it. What this sort of stuff does, is FORCE it to be a negotiation with all the negatives that brings - starting a potentially antagonistic process with a stranger or even a friend (no, you're not allowed to use your new model because I say so and I know better than GW about what things should be costed at), additional delay, harder to play competitively when you begin the session by one side removing troops the other side doesn't like, etc.
I swear new 40k stuff is like Facebook changes: everyone goes into a tizzy for a couple of weeks and then everyone moves on about it and accepts it as the way things are. Rinse, repeat forever.
Or maybe not everyone plays in the same environment with the same people who share their same tastes with you.
It's not even the enviroement I play in (and I have played in more than one) it's this constant cloud that hangs overhead when you participate with the online community and how so many apparently don't want to talk to their opponents in a game that requires you to talk to your opponent to make it work. It's baffling that people "shouldn't" have to talk about if they want D-Weapons or not, when there is already a whole list of other things people ask about or refuse to play with all the time. Why are D-Weapons suddenly the thing that's so hard to ask about? I mean your opponent should already not be a dick and trying to sneak in things that on you, but is it really that hard to talk to people to make sure both people are getting what they want, or do I apparently live on an island by myself when it comes to this concept of "decent human beings playing games together"?
Maybe this is why we need, I move, you move, I shoot, you shoot, now when we have D strength weapons. If you know you are going to get shot at, you make sure, you are close to your enemy so they get shot up as well.
One of the reasons why I stopped playing 40K. Found it not fun, especially if you are 2nd and you can't do nothing but watch and see your army get shot up on turn 1.
I dont like it personally
Theres a doubles tourney coming up at the store
1750 with 1 FOC Me (Tau) my friend (nids)
we share the FOC and all armies count as Allies of convience
I thought this was going to be fun
but now he says that we can take a lord of war..
I said thats broken.. he goes on to tell me how balanced it is and that it will be fine
I said fine.. Im not taking my tau anymore... Im taking my necrons with a trancendant Ctan with a hellstorm strength D
he then says im a dick and its a good thing he gets to pick who I go up against..
I just said.. thanks for proving my point... its rediculous
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Draigowing is dead, screamerstar is dead, Seer Council is dead, anything that remotely resembles a small, elite army is dead.
So much flavor of the game vanishes under a pummeling from the D.
Wait, there is "flavor" in taking small elite armies?
This sounds like one bad thing killing another bad thing.
Not exactly a "good" scenario, but all it's doing, like I've seen mentioned, is screw over WAACers by creating all of these ridiculous combo killers.
I said fine.. Im not taking my tau anymore... Im taking my necrons with a trancendant Ctan with a hellstorm strength D
Its not the most durable gargantum creature but it can be equipped with two hellstorm weapons. Ouch.
I know he dies easily
but i will be kitting him with both hellstorm templates...
we will see what he can do..
and with this loadout I believe he is around 660p (which doesnt seem that bad for what you get.. if I get him in a good position I could kill that many points in 1 shooting phase)
Whats the range on the ctan weapons? Hellstorm with D sounds way worse than 4 blasts. The hellstorm is huge and probably doesn`t scatter. Sounds like taking a helldrake and turning it up to 11
Illumini wrote: Whats the range on the ctan weapons? Hellstorm with D sounds way worse than 4 blasts. The hellstorm is huge and probably doesn`t scatter. Sounds like taking a helldrake and turning it up to 11
Indeed, the hellstorm template is huge and doesn't scatter while the 5'' D blasts of the Rev. Titan can. In our apoc games we noticed that scattering of a 5'' blast against the centre of a Baneblade is generally not a big problem. Most of the time, the blast still hits the tank since the Baneblade is so huge.
Thud wrote: I've never understood people who get hung up in what's official or not. GW can't force anyone to use Escalation, and they can't stop people from making house rules. Same goes for tournaments. What GW says is irrelevant, the rules pack tells you what goes.
Not only can GW not prevent house rules, they encourage them too. Spirit of the Game mentions adding your own stuff to the game, and page 108 mentions you can use army lists from your own system.
As for the panic of "OH GOD STRENGTH D!!!!", what's stopping people from just saying "no thanks" to games like that? Or saying "sure, but only if we don't use Destroyer Weapons." Why is it always the death of the game as we know it and never seen as "let's communicate more about the game we want to play so no one walks away unsatisfied"?
^This.
This game is supposed to be played between friends, not hostile strangers. Friends talk. If you are playing with strangers, I think you should make an effort to communicate.
If someone brings the most competitive stuff he has to a game, then he should accept the possibility that many people will not play with him. It is not fun. It is awfully boring, awkward and unfair for people who want to play the game as it is supposed to be played. Read the rulebook: house rules and "talking" are part of the game. GW actively encourages it.
I like Escalation, but if I bring a superheavy to a battle with a stranger and I am unable to tone down or adapt my list if needed I am doing it wrong. And if I bring a 1000 pts fluffy list and someone brings a superheavy.... well it is a "no thanks" for me. No bad feelings, but no need to waste anyone´s time.
Will you accept a game against someone fielding a Baneblade variant as a Lord of War entry for a Sisters of Battle (AA) army? They got no toys to play with.
Will you accept a game against someone fielding a Baneblade variant as a Lord of War entry for a Sisters of Battle (AA) army? They got no toys to play with.
Myself personally
If I was bringing a super heavy then I would absolutely allow it
Will you accept a game against someone fielding a Baneblade variant as a Lord of War entry for a Sisters of Battle (AA) army? They got no toys to play with.
Personally I own a Stormlord for Apoc games with that in mind, so of course. Titans wuld be nice too.
Will you accept a game against someone fielding a Baneblade variant as a Lord of War entry for a Sisters of Battle (AA) army? They got no toys to play with.
I'd shrug and melta it to death first turn with my scouting melta Dominions ignoring cover.
Daemonhammer wrote: I dont really care if they allow super heavy stuff in normal games, half my army is equipped with anti armor weaponry.
Half your army won't exist after the first turn, and the other half after the second turn.
Show me a single Lord of War that can kill more than 2 units a turn or someone who only brought 4 units to a game and you might be right. Otherwise this is hyperbole at its finest.
Eldar titans may be able to dish out a silly ton of firepower but its fairly squishy being 12 12 10 and only 9 HP, sure it has its 4+++ but that won't stop cron air or DP sallys or anything else with massed S7+ or massed meltas from taking a bite out of that titan with an alpha or beta strike
Could I get some help with questions I have on Super Heavies that are for Tau in Escalation. I also need help answering questions about Escalation in general. Thanks.
What are your thoughts on D weapons too? Will they get banned from tournaments? Also, if they do get banned from tournaments etc. then will they still be playable in normal friendly matches. I understand that its ok as long as you and you opponent agree on it, but would it ever really be fair if someone is playing say the Revenant against someone who doesn't have a titan or SHV?
greg0985 wrote: Will An'ggrath and Scabiethraxx finally be able to come out and play?
I bought the book yesterday at my FLGS. Neither An'ggrath or Scabie are in it. The only chaos unit is the Khorne Lord of Skulls.
As for the book itself, it's an interesting way to play it. Just like anything, guys, let your opponent know what type of game you want to play. Use that opening in your head that you normally stuff cake into.
Tell them if you are or are not interested in playing Escalation, just like you'd talk about how many points, to Forge World or not to Forge World, Cities of Death or basic rule book missions, competitive or fluffy, etc.
Act like civilized people and remember that it takes 2 to tango, that it's a game, that it should be fun for both people, etc...
greg0985 wrote: Will An'ggrath and Scabiethraxx finally be able to come out and play?
I bought the book yesterday at my FLGS. Neither An'ggrath or Scabie are in it. The only chaos unit is the Khorne Lord of Skulls.
As for the book itself, it's an interesting way to play it. Just like anything, guys, let your opponent know what type of game you want to play. Use that opening in your head that you normally stuff cake into.
Tell them if you are or are not interested in playing Escalation, just like you'd talk about how many points, to Forge World or not to Forge World, Cities of Death or basic rule book missions, competitive or fluffy, etc.
Act like civilized people and remember that it takes 2 to tango, that it's a game, that it should be fun for both people, etc...
FW is releasing a PDF in a few days adding more Lords of War.
ClockworkZion wrote: but no, we don't get anything for us in Escalation. Worse yet, we don't even get access to the Imperial Guard hand-me-downs.
So, just for the hell of it, I emailed GW customer services asking about the description saying "for every army" but the Sisters not getting anything. This is the reply I got:
GW Customer Services wrote:We do not produce a super-heavy vehicle for the Adepta Sororitas, so there is not a specific army model for them. However you do have the option to add any of the super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan creatures that we currently produce to your Adepta Sororitas army.
For example if you wanted to use a Doom Hammer or a Thunderhawk with you Sister's you are free to do so.
So, their advice is basically just to take a super-heavy with the Sisters depsite the rules, basically doing some homebrew? Or does this have some basis in the rules?
ClockworkZion wrote: FW is releasing a PDF in a few days adding more Lords of War.
Maybe FW will give the Sisters some love, if not soon then at some point. Hopefully.
GW Customer Services wrote:We do not produce a super-heavy vehicle for the Adepta Sororitas, so there is not a specific army model for them. However you do have the option to add any of the super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan creatures that we currently produce to your Adepta Sororitas army.
For example if you wanted to use a Doom Hammer or a Thunderhawk with you Sister's you are free to do so.
So, their advice is basically just to take a super-heavy with the Sisters depsite the rules, basically doing some homebrew?
Exactly! So you can use a Transcendent C'tan as a Living Saint for example .
GW Customer Services wrote:We do not produce a super-heavy vehicle for the Adepta Sororitas, so there is not a specific army model for them. However you do have the option to add any of the super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan creatures that we currently produce to your Adepta Sororitas army.
For example if you wanted to use a Doom Hammer or a Thunderhawk with you Sister's you are free to do so.
So, their advice is basically just to take a super-heavy with the Sisters depsite the rules, basically doing some homebrew?
Exactly! So you can use a Transcendent C'tan as a Living Saint for example .
That would be hilarious.
And yes, it's basically homebrew/houserules and that's it.
GW Customer Services wrote:We do not produce a super-heavy vehicle for the Adepta Sororitas, so there is not a specific army model for them. However you do have the option to add any of the super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan creatures that we currently produce to your Adepta Sororitas army.
For example if you wanted to use a Doom Hammer or a Thunderhawk with you Sister's you are free to do so.
So, their advice is basically just to take a super-heavy with the Sisters depsite the rules, basically doing some homebrew?
Exactly! So you can use a Transcendent C'tan as a Living Saint for example .
Is there any way to take out something like the Revenant? I mean you could use it for yourself with puppet master, but is there a way to destroy one. It doesn't need to be the Revenant specifically, but is there a way to dispatch things of such strength?
Commander_Farsight wrote: Is there any way to take out something like the Revenant? I mean you could use it for yourself with puppet master, but is there a way to destroy one. It doesn't need to be the Revenant specifically, but is there a way to dispatch things of such strength?
Actually, one of the ideas my gaming group came up with for sisters was pretty awesome.
Model up a baneblade chassis with some sort of huge Exorcist launcher, probably by putting the Stormlord front on it but with an armored plate where the guns go, then piping/tubes for the huge organ pipes.
Then use the Forge World rules for the Praetor Assault Launcher.
Gives the sisters some nice anti-aircraft in an emergency as well.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Is there any way to take out something like the Revenant? I mean you could use it for yourself with puppet master, but is there a way to destroy one. It doesn't need to be the Revenant specifically, but is there a way to dispatch things of such strength?
Not really, because the Revenant will decimate your forces with his four 5'' D blasts rather quickly and he can move very fast to escape a dangerous situation, if any.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Is there any way to take out something like the Revenant? I mean you could use it for yourself with puppet master, but is there a way to destroy one. It doesn't need to be the Revenant specifically, but is there a way to dispatch things of such strength?
Not really, because the Revenant will decimate your forces with his four 5'' D blasts rather quickly and he can move very fast to escape a dangerous situation, if any.
Since he's jump, he may have mobility, but he can't run away like a Jet Pack unit can, so if he's got line of sight on you, then you've got line of sight on him for the next turn (and maybe even if he doesn't).
Tactics are important for dealing with the Reverant. Line of Sight keeps him from firing so picking terrain that blocks his Line of Sight as much as possible will help (tall buildings basically). He may have mobility, but by forcing him to expose himself to fire on parts of your army he's can be set up for more pain.
Also that template still only hits 1 level of a building, not all levels (unless I'm missing something about D-Weapons, but I'm pretty sure they still follow normal template placement rules), so a large squad spread out over a multi-story building will actually last longer than one on the ground.
Additionally spreading out over a number of different buildings can actually result in your opponent forgetting where all your units are (I've seen it happen, especially when a unit can't shoot for a turn and they forget that they're there because they've "gone dark").
Aside from choosing a terrain set up to balance the match (another thing that table was lacking in that video honestly, it looked rather sparse for 6th edition terrain rules), shield generators (take the formation with 3 shields a piece to create a bubble they must break every turn to try and damage your army) aren't a bad option from Stronghold, and taking a lot of Anti-Armor options are never bad. S7+ will help put the hurt on the Reverant.
Remember, you still roll damage results vs super heavies as an explodes result is worth D3 hull points, so AP2 and AP1 weapons are still really handy as they make those rolls count.
That's just some off the cuff thinking there too. I'm sure there is a lot more you can do to turn the tables against the Reverant.
GW Customer Services wrote:We do not produce a super-heavy vehicle for the Adepta Sororitas, so there is not a specific army model for them. However you do have the option to add any of the super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan creatures that we currently produce to your Adepta Sororitas army.
For example if you wanted to use a Doom Hammer or a Thunderhawk with you Sister's you are free to do so.
So, their advice is basically just to take a super-heavy with the Sisters depsite the rules, basically doing some homebrew? Or does this have some basis in the rules?
GW has always encouraged house rules. They are part of the game. It has always been that way, and it is obvious they are pushing the game forward in that direction a little more with every release. This is a "beer and pizza" game, not to be taken too seriously. Just for fun.
So yes, if you bring a Doom Hammer correctly modelled as a Sisters of Battle superheavy, there is no reason at all for anyone to complain. It is fluffy, it is fun, it is fair. At least, that is the way GW envision the game. However, it is not necessarily the opinion of the player at the other side of the table. So a previous talk is recommended.
However, I would like GW to make some sort of announcement regarding this subject. It will help the players to focus on the game instead of having discussions about what is "legal".
A similar case: bringing a Baneblade full of spikes and saying that you are using it with Chaos. Because that Khorne guy is horrendous.
I like the Lord of Skulls though (then again my favorite Batman movie is the 1966 one so my tastes might be a bit odd)! I'm considering getting one for my Dark Mechanicus project.
Best thing about the new rules is that now you can truly purchase the victory. I won't have to worry about all those kids without jobs or money beating me anymore. "Take that! Child's play!"
ClockworkZion wrote: I like the Lord of Skulls though (then again my favorite Batman movie is the 1966 one so my tastes might be a bit odd)! I'm considering getting one for my Dark Mechanicus project.
Everything is OK in a Dark Mech project. Even a Dreadknight, a Centurion or a Stormraven would fit.
Good luck with that project of yours. I am keeping an eye on your thread on Proposed Rules. By the way, did you read "Dark Adeptus" by Ben Counter? Not particularly bad, and it is Darkmech Vs GK.
doktor_g wrote: Best thing about the new rules is that now you can truly purchase the victory. I won't have to worry about all those kids without jobs or money beating me anymore. "Take that! Child's play!"
You do that. let me know how it works out when you face the melta spam that is SoB, drop-pod marines or enclaves.
"That 900 point titan? yea. dead on T1."
doktor_g wrote: Best thing about the new rules is that now you can truly purchase the victory. I won't have to worry about all those kids without jobs or money beating me anymore. "Take that! Child's play!"
You do that. let me know how it works out when you face the melta spam that is SoB, drop-pod marines or enclaves.
"That 900 point titan? yea. dead on T1."
Or Gauss. A titan is just a big walker, and necrons are good at killing those.
I think Arcanthrites might be nasty with that no-scatter warlord trait. Have them form a 6" circle around the vehicle, and cut it up with cutters. Hope they survive and then chip it apart with void blades.
ClockworkZion wrote: I like the Lord of Skulls though (then again my favorite Batman movie is the 1966 one so my tastes might be a bit odd)! I'm considering getting one for my Dark Mechanicus project.
Everything is OK in a Dark Mech project. Even a Dreadknight, a Centurion or a Stormraven would fit.
Good luck with that project of yours. I am keeping an eye on your thread on Proposed Rules. By the way, did you read "Dark Adeptus" by Ben Counter? Not particularly bad, and it is Darkmech Vs GK.
Thanks. Future updates are actually only going to be on TWG so I don't have to try and keep reposting and checking several boards. Links will be in my signature to the most recent part, and every post will back link to the old ones to let people catch up. I hope to have my next part up by the end of next week, after Finals.
By accident Dark Adeptus was the first of the Grey Knights trilogy I read. Pretty good in my mind for a Dark Mech reference. Iron Hands and Eisenhorn have nice Daemon Engine action too. Not strictly Dark Mech but those do tie in rather strongly.
I think people are overestimating the revenant in both directions...vastly.
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
With this said it is not unkillable. If you are not conservative with it it would not be unusual to see a turn 2 or 3 kill.
My only problem with it is you need to build every list almost completely around SH/GC killing and D weapon defense. This means any army that doesn't go MSU and almost maxed out AT will flop badly. This eliminates variety in lists for a polarized environment of SH and GC lists. 2++ rerollables didn't have nearly the damage output of these so I could mitigate them. Most of the SH except for the Tau have enough damage, mobility, and/or carrying capacity to ensure they are the center of any game.
@ansacs: multi-level buildings on the table to benefit from numbers, but to minimize casualties (templates only hit one level, unless I'm missing some rule that lets D-Weapons nuke whole buildings) and Void Projectors to help mitigate D-Weapons.
That or play Green Tide and laugh as they desperately try to kill enough models to matter. It's not like Orks don't die en-masse to blasts anyways.
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?
Neither is invul. That is a holo-field. What happens is before you roll for pen, you have to roll to see if you bypass the holo-field. If it moves, you have to roll 4+. If it doesn't move, you have to roll a 3+.
Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?
3+ is an armor save of 3 or higher. 3++ is an invulnerable save of 3 or higher.
Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?
I'm not familiar with their rules but couldn't they do the "Hokey Pokey"(Put one foot in area terrain ) cover routine Flyrants etc do?
Elaborate, what is the Hokey Pokey? Does that have something to do with area terrain?
Yeah meant to add that in there.
In that case, no. Unlike MC and Infantry, area terrain does not protect vehicles. They must have be at least 25% obscured in order to get the save. Pg75, brb.
Of course, if there are enough buildings on the table, then even a titan will get a save. This is where flanking comes in handy, I would think.
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?
Neither is invul. That is a holo-field. What happens is before you roll for pen, you have to roll to see if you bypass the holo-field. If it moves, you have to roll 4+. If it doesn't move, you have to roll a 3+.
Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?
You are correct. I should start saying Holo3+ or something to differentiate. We will need new terminology.
As far as I am aware SH get cover just like vehicles. A bastion or skyshield is a good way to give a titan a 3+ cover or 4++ save. Combined with invisibility this could make SH very very tough to kill.
ClockworkZion wrote:@ansacs: multi-level buildings on the table to benefit from numbers, but to minimize casualties (templates only hit one level, unless I'm missing some rule that lets D-Weapons nuke whole buildings) and Void Projectors to help mitigate D-Weapons.
That or play Green Tide and laugh as they desperately try to kill enough models to matter. It's not like Orks don't die en-masse to blasts anyways.
You are right about multi level ruins but that is a very un fun way to play (aka gunline style play) and void shields help a little but are easy to negate with token AT shooting. Both also count on you either having a gunline style army or protecting a token force (which the titan could jump up and assault).
Green tide won't be as good as you might think when we are talking 4-5 models in an average blast (green tide players never get max coherence due to board space/need to move). The real problem is that if you just take boyz you will have trouble closing with the SH and if you take anything else it dies. Not that it cannot be done just that this is not a hard counter due to the small footprint of the SH based armies.
I just had a look through the Escalation book and I am surprised to say that I'm against it in its current form. Normally, I love getting bigger models into the game and expanding the options of how you can structure your army. But this? This is just too much Auto-Win even for a die hard power gamer like me. The Revenant is just impossibly good, but it's not only that. It's the absolute lack of coherency in the choices they published, the brokenness of D weapons in normal 40k, the absurd level of firepower that certain models bring. It's insane. I think one of the sleeper hits here is going to be the relatively cheap Transcendant C'Tan/Tesseract Vault. Sky of Falling Stars is enough to sweep an entire army off the board, and will take an hour and a half to fully resolve the attack with 6 Apoc Barrage shots every turn.
I' actually kind of glad for once that I'm elsewhere in the world where there's no 40k to be played. I'm gonna let the meta take this one on the chin and adjust itself before I come home.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although I now expect to see an upsurge in the number of deep-strike/reserves alpha strike builds like the pods full of Sternguard of yesteryear.
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?
Neither is invul. That is a holo-field. What happens is before you roll for pen, you have to roll to see if you bypass the holo-field. If it moves, you have to roll 4+. If it doesn't move, you have to roll a 3+.
Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?
On the subject of using fw in escalation. Doesn't imperial armour 2 2nd edition contain lord of war entries? I'm just wondering if it would be worth buying? I'm gonna get it anyway but yeah, that would be a boon.
For those who bought Escalation on the iPad like me thinking it was an ibook interactive version (because ALL their other ebook products say 'ebook edition' in their title), just to let you know, I reported the issue to itunes and was immediately (and I mean immediately, seconds after clicking 'submit') granted a refund.
I don't know if its because I've bought so many other products via itunes and never complained or if they know this problem exists or what, but I got an instantaneous credit back. So if you're unsatisfied with owning an ebook version when you thought you were getting an ibook interactive product, I'd suggest you do the same!
Hey, just so you know, you can screw over those "melta guns" by either hiding it behind a bastion (3+ cover) or putting it on top of skyshield (lulz) for a 4++. So now they need to basically reroll to hit you and you have a 4++. And when you don't kill it, his broad side friends will vape you.
Not to mention anyone smart will bring an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor (fluffy!) and his three servo skulls to make sure you can't infiltrate or scout anywhere near it.
Then, finally, enjoy your opponents face when you cast fortune and prescience on it... Unless I'm missing something unique about Titans.
TheKbob wrote: Hey, just so you know, you can screw over those "melta guns" by either hiding it behind a bastion (3+ cover) or putting it on top of skyshield (lulz) for a 4++. So now they need to basically reroll to hit you and you have a 4++. And when you don't kill it, his broad side friends will vape you.
Not to mention anyone smart will bring an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor (fluffy!) and his three servo skulls to make sure you can't infiltrate or scout anywhere near it.
Then, finally, enjoy your opponents face when you cast fortune and prescience on it... Unless I'm missing something unique about Titans.
Depends on how tall those arms are in relation to the height of the bastion. Remember, the LOS for a weapon is from the gun, not the head of a walker, and it only has a 45* swivel, which means that Eldar titan may not be tall enough to shoot over the Bastion.
I'd need one of each to check, but I'd be interested to know if it could without needing to be modeled insanely.
ansacs wrote: I think people are overestimating the revenant in both directions...vastly.
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
With this said it is not unkillable. If you are not conservative with it it would not be unusual to see a turn 2 or 3 kill.
You're working hypothesis is that your units that can kill the Revenant are still alive in round 2 or 3. However, the Revenant has a very high killing potential and your army will start to crumble when facin four D 5'' blasts ignoring cover every turn.
The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.
What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?
3+ is an armor save of 3 or higher.
3++ is an invulnerable save of 3 or higher.
The extra + makes it invulnerable.
Just to clarify, people are misunderstanding the 'eldar titan holofield' rule.
The player shooting the titan rolls to see if his shot gets through. 3+ if it did not move, 4+ if it did move. That is to succeed at the shot, not to save against it. So it is equivalent to a 5+ invulnerable save, 4+ if you moved, which you will have except on the first turn. With 2 differences:
You get the protection against D weapons. This is huge.
You can stack it with a cover/invulnerable save. The revenant will hardly ever be able to get conventional cover. I suppose you might be able to buff it with some psychic power.
I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Just to clarify, people are misunderstanding the 'eldar titan holofield' rule.
The player shooting the titan rolls to see if his shot gets through. 3+ if it did not move, 4+ if it did move. That is to succeed at the shot, not to save against it. So it is equivalent to a 5+ invulnerable save, 4+ if you moved, which you will have except on the first turn. With 2 differences:
You get the protection against D weapons. This is huge.
You can stack it with a cover/invulnerable save. The revenant will hardly ever be able to get conventional cover. I suppose you might be able to buff it with some psychic power.
It is actually directly before armour pen rolls (just in case some special ability is there) and it is statistically equivalent to a 3++ or 4++ invulnerable save but better in every way. (aka Commutative Property of Multiplication)
wuestenfux wrote:You're working hypothesis is that your units that can kill the Revenant are still alive in round 2 or 3. However, the Revenant has a very high killing potential and your army will start to crumble when facin four D 5'' blasts ignoring cover every turn.
You can mitigate damage. It can target only two units with its D of DOOOOOM! Therefore if you have 5 targets and spread them between multiple ruin levels/keep them out of LoS it becomes literally impossible for the SH player to kill all the units before turn 2. You will need to keep your SH hunters in reserve so they can either walk on and kill it (O'Vesa Star), DS in to kill it (MM landspeeders or farsight bomb), or outflank (devil dogs). You can also alpha strike it for a high risk, high reward (aka vect DE). I do agree that D strength weapons should not have been put into the game but don't kid yourself that they are unbeatable. The secret is simple; flyers and extreme MSU to negate the SH shooting and SH hunters for ~900 pts of your army will allow you to win without LoW in the new meta...I don't like it but it is what it is.
Purifier wrote: No CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT. Talk about dropping the ball on writing the Escalation rules.
Forge World is releasing a pdf in the next few days of all the stuff they have that can be taken as Lords of War so don't panic yet. The main studio focused on what was in plastic kits over everything else so it's no surprise there that there are options missing.
A GumyBear wrote: I only hope I can bring my pylon because I don't wanna be fielding my deciever as the ice skating double flamer of doom cheese
I for one will be using my Night Bringer as an ice skating Sephiroth wannabe with terrible breath
I modeled and painted up my deciever to look like Buu from DBZ so it only seems fit that he should be the one to slaughter millions instead of the wierd plastic one my GW basically gave me since I'm the only cron player and they have no room for it in their display case and my nightbringer is sadly still in his box collecting dust but one day I will field all three as normal ctan amd then get a ridiculous looking goofball of a model to be my transcendent for the ultimate ctan cluster feth
ine, it started out as a few 'jaks and some infantry. Then came the super-warcasters. Then came the Behemoth, towering over the infantry much like a titan does marines. Then came Colossals. It didn't ruin that game, and I don't think Escalation will ruin it for Warhammer. Is a Revenant Titan (900pts) in a 1500 point game gonna be regular? I doubt it, how many good scoring units can you include to do the mission while the Titan sits there and blows up 1 or two things a round. I think for those of us who play the 4000 point games, a huge investment like a Baneblade or Lord of Skulls would be fun. Of course, it's most fun when the opponent has one as well. It's as tasty as two Warlords in 
!
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which is good
