It says to activate it at the beginning of the movement phase (i.e. before you do anything else).

But technically the bearer isnt even on the table, and 40k rules usually are only applying to models that are present on the table, and for those rules that are relevant to units not on the table, the rules only tell them when to arrive, where and how to arrive etc.

So can I already have tank-hunter suits the turn i deep strike with a PNE to use against enemy armor?

Isn't there an FAQ entry about special rules and wargear used at the beginning of the turn/movement phase?

There's a rule, on page 125 (second paragraph, in bold) that stops most things that must be used at the start of the turn from being used when arriving from reserves.

I do seem to remember however, there was an argument that one piece of Tau equipment got around that rule, but I'm not sure it was the PNE?

---

Can't find anything in the main rulebook FAQ or Tau FAQ about it. Things like generating Warp charges still happens when the Psyker is in reserve, so it's not a blanket rule that things can't happen in reserves, just generally you can't measure to anything and the bit on P125 prevents alot of things.

The main argument I happen to agree with was:

you are not using the special power, you are just selecting it. The ability you select does not get used till later in your turn when powers are actually allowed.

But yes it was a huge debate a few months ago.

Except you ARE using a special rule, otherwise you would not be able to pick a rule.

No, RAW you cannot use it.

Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

No power is being used in the movement phase. You are just picking one that gets used later.

To prove your point: please list what named power is being invoked in the movement phase?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Is the PNE an ability or special rule?

PNE is a purchased Wargear.

The similar wording in question is Logan Grimnar and his High King ability. It was FAQ'd to work the turn they arrive from deep strike, and it is worded very similar to the way the PEN is worded. I would say yes because of those similarities.

 Mulletdude wrote:
The similar wording in question is Logan Grimnar and his High King ability. It was FAQ'd to work the turn they arrive from deep strike, and it is worded very similar to the way the PEN is worded. I would say yes because of those similarities.

So does every other special rule that is used at the start of the turn.
Using an FAQ made just for a Special Character to completely eliminate a rule, just isn't right.

 thejughead wrote:
PNE is a purchased Wargear.

... That grants you the ability to choose a special rule.

 Mulletdude wrote:
The similar wording in question is Logan Grimnar and his High King ability. It was FAQ'd to work the turn they arrive from deep strike, and it is worded very similar to the way the PEN is worded. I would say yes because of those similarities.

And no Independent Characters can join units in drop pods because Tyranid IC's cannot do so for some stupid reason. Unless otherwise specified, the rule would not work without a FAQ

I am of the opinion that you can use the PEN chip on the turn you deepstrike for this reason.

Psykers have no choice, they MUST generate warp charges at the start of the turn.. even when they deep strike.

The wording on the PEN chip says "Choose one of 4 abilities" not "You may choose", you HAVE to pick a power much like a Psyker HAS to generate warp charges.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

No power is being used in the movement phase. You are just picking one that gets used later.

To prove your point: please list what named power is being invoked in the movement phase?

What, apart from where it says you can't use special rules?

The special rule PEC is being used, otherwise you have no permission to pick a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

No power is being used in the movement phase. You are just picking one that gets used later.

To prove your point: please list what named power is being invoked in the movement phase?

What, apart from where it says you can't use special rules?

The special rule PEC is being used, otherwise you have no permission to pick a rule.

You dodged the question so I'll answer it.

What special rule is being used by the PEN chip in the movement phase?
A: none. You are choosing an ability, note using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Nothing says you can't use a special rule. It says you can't use powers that happen in the movement phase when you deep strike.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Is the PNE an ability or special rule?

Nether.
Does an iridium battle suit make a tau commanders toughness 5 the turn it arrives from deep strike?

Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.


What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.

You're not? How are you choosing a special rule?

What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

They have the special rule. They don't use the special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.

You're not? How are you choosing a special rule?

What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

They have the special rule. They don't use the special rule.

They have a special rule granted to them by wargear, just like the chip.


If you are prevented from making a decision after a deepstrike, please back that up with a page number.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.


What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

Do you have to declare that the suit is giving them Stealth or Shrouded at the beginning of the turn? How about the PEN?

Fragile wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Let's see... One modifies a profile, the other grants an ability. I wonder if those are comparable.

Oh, no - not in this situation they aren't. They have nothing to do with each other.

Grants an ability yes.

You are not prevented from being granted an ability in the movement phase of the turn you arrive.
You are not using an ability at that time.


What about stealth suits arriving by deepstrike? Do they receive stealth or shrouded the turn they arrive?

Do you have to declare that the suit is giving them Stealth or Shrouded at the beginning of the turn? How about the PEN?

Again: quote the restriction preventing you from making a decision after deepstriking, as you are not using the special rule till later in your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To simplify the counter argument:

Stealth suits grant Stealth and shrouded = ok after deepstrike

PEN granting one of three abilities =/= OK after deepstriking because you are told to choose one.

The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

rigeld2 wrote:
The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

Actually, that denial is not listed in the rules.

Decicion making is listed no where in the special rules section if the BRB. Please point out where it is listed as an ability or special rule. You are told to make a decision. A decision is not using an ability nor a special rule. Hence there is nothing preventing you from using it as you are granted permission to make the decision, but never denied it.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

Actually, that denial is not listed in the rules.

Decicion making is listed no where in the special rules section if the BRB. Please point out where it is listed as an ability or special rule. You are told to make a decision. A decision is not using an ability nor a special rule. Hence there is nothing preventing you from using it as you are granted permission to make the decision, but never denied it.

So the model has no ability that let's him choose a special rule?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The ability to pick a special rule is what you're denied from using. Rule has already been cited.

Actually, that denial is not listed in the rules.

Decicion making is listed no where in the special rules section if the BRB. Please point out where it is listed as an ability or special rule. You are told to make a decision. A decision is not using an ability nor a special rule. Hence there is nothing preventing you from using it as you are granted permission to make the decision, but never denied it.

So the model has no ability that let's him choose a special rule?

Does your rulebook have an ability called "special rule choosing"?

Mine doesnt. The way the PEN is worded, it always has those three soecial rules but you can only choose one per turn. Since those listed special rules dont come jnto llay till the shooting phase at the earliest, there is no conflict with deepstrike.

Then why aren't they chosen in the shooting phase?
What reason to make it the movement phase?
Perhaps exactly for the interaction with this rule.
And even if you don't feel it's a special rule itself, you're perfectly describing an ability. Something with is also barred.

 grendel083 wrote:
Then why aren't they chosen in the shooting phase?
What reason to make it the movement phase?
Perhaps exactly for the interaction with this rule.
And even if you don't feel it's a special rule itself, you're perfectly describing an ability. Something with is also barred.

You are not barred from using abilities after deepstriking. You are barred from using an ability that occures before the movement phase. So if your interpretation is that choosing which ability you have is the same as using it. Thats fine, but thats a HIWPI argument.

You are told to pick a rule...not use it.
Picking is not disallowed after deepstriking.
And the weakest support but a good indicator: another army with the same rule worded the same way was FAQ'd clarrifying that yes it could use it the turn it arrives. Precedent is not good as the sole reason, but it is decent icing on the cake.

Can you decide to use the PEN at the start of your shooting phase to pick an ability ?

Fragile wrote:
Can you decide to use the PEN at the start of your shooting phase to pick an ability ?

No because you are told not too.

But when you choose the rule is mostly irrelevant as making that choice is not the same thing as using a power or an ability.

The thing that's throwing a wrench in the works on this is some people look at the PEN as always providing those rules, like any other piece of wargear like stealth suits provide stealth and shrouded. Just with the PEN you get to pick.

Other use the fact that you have to pick as an indication that the model is using some power or ability, and that it should be disallowed when arriving by deep strike.


Facts remain facts though. Another ability that grants the same bonuses and even has the same wording is allowed.





Side question as I'm at work: is there anything in the rules that would prevent you from choosing the rule the PEN grants before the model is on the table? Since both occure simultaneously, could the PEN player elect to chose his rule, then deepstrike onto the board?

Personally, I chose not to use the ability in the first turn of combat out of respect for my opponents. The rules surrounding this piece of war-gear are a little confusing for even Rule Lawyers like myself to come to a define conclusion about. The poor quality of wording used by Game Workshop when it penned the restriction on 'start of turn' abilities and special rules is a big part of the problem. Only a very very few rules, and no ability I can think of, contain the wording that they must be used at the start of the turn. This would mean, if the requirement is for the rule being used to contain the wording 'must be used at the start of the turn,' that nearly no piece of war-gear, special rule or ability is actually effected.

The Puretide Engram NeuroChip, at this point, is capable of functioning without argument.

When you start to apply certain Frequently Asked Question answers and logical arguments to the mix it begins to get a little more messy. I, personally, do not think the writers intended to create a system where a restriction would be near impossible to apply so these arguments do need to be considered. It is just a matter of how far you take the logical conclusion and arguments, the more extreme you take it the more and more abilities and special rules are effected. I have seen conclusions ranging from denying any abilities and special rules from being applied, regardless if it has a timing requirement, to arguments that deny any special rule that contains the wordings 'must be used' at any time that could be concluded as 'at the start of the turn.'

This now means the Puretide Engran NeuroChip is denied, though it can be argued abilities that target the player could by-pass the restriction which is an interesting debate....

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are not barred from using abilities after deepstriking. You are barred from using an ability that occures before the movement phase.

This is wrong.
Before the movement phase? There's nothing before the movement phase apart from your opponents assault phase. I suggest you review the rule in question. The rule is for special rules and abilities used at the start of the turn. That's still the movement phase.

So if your interpretation is that choosing which ability you have is the same as using it. Thats fine, but thats a HIWPI argument.

It's granting a rule. Doesn't need to be used, it's still being granted. That's very much an ability. Try and call it something else, but that's what it very clearly is.

You are told to pick a rule...not use it.
Picking is not disallowed after deepstriking.

Irrelevant, the wargear grants the ability to pick.

And the weakest support but a good indicator: another army with the same rule worded the same way was FAQ'd clarrifying that yes it could use it the turn it arrives. Precedent is not good as the sole reason, but it is decent icing on the cake.

It's a poor precedent. There are many other things with the same wording that are not FAQ'd to allow it. That a Special Character is allowed simply shows that they are just that. Special. The exception, rather than the rule. Something true of nearly every Special Character. Should all models be allowed to assault after deep strike because Zagstrukk can?

 grendel083 wrote:
This is wrong.
Before the movement phase? There's nothing before the movement phase apart from your opponents assault phase. I suggest you review the rule in question. The rule is for special rules and abilities used at the start of the turn. That's still the movement phase.

Are "beginning of your turn" and "start of the movement phase" equal?

Doesn't need to be used, it's still being granted. That's very much an ability. Try and call it something else, but that's what it very clearly is.

Page number please of this definition.......

Irrelevant, the wargear grants the ability to pick.

and nothing denies that permission.

The exception, rather than the rule. Something true of nearly every Special Character. Should all models be allowed to assault after deep strike because Zagstrukk can?

I agree it is weak support, and said as much. Your example is laughable though, "all models" don't all have rules worded exactly like Zagstrukk's. IF "all models" had the exact same rule as Zagstrikk, would you be arguing that only he could do it because he is special?

Yes.

Pg 32 BRB and Pg 73 Tau codex.

Pg 125 BRB denies permission since the PEN has to be used that the start of the turn.

Steel - so an ability / special rule isn't allowing you to choose a rule?
Because the rules disagree

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Steel - so an ability / special rule isn't allowing you to choose a rule?
Because the rules disagree

Is a stealth suit an ability?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Yes.

Pg 32 BRB and Pg 73 Tau codex.

Does not refer to anything as an ability....

Fragile wrote:
Pg 125 BRB denies permission since the PEN has to be used that the start of the turn.

Incorrect.

You are prevented from using a special rule at the start of the movement phase, not choosing one. What special rule listed in the BRB special rules section is being used at the start of the movement phase?



And for further consideration: The PEN requires no target, and no dice roll.... since that choice and Deepstrike occurs simultaneously, i dont see anything preventing you from choosing the rule before deepstriking and bypassing the poorly worded, irrelevant restriction altogether.

If it is not a special ability then anyone can do the same and pick from those abilities. However, this is not the case. Your entire claim is wargear does not give abilities, which is wrong under page 32.

Steel - so my chaos can choose tank hunter then? As according to you that doesn't require any special rule or ability to do so.

Awesome, havocs just got better!

Or, under actual rules, you are using an ability - the ability yo choose a special rule - that you must do at the start of the turn. The actual rules, not those you pretend don't apply, state you cannot do this the turn you arrive from reserves

Quote BRB: "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its Strength. Conversely, a special rule may improve a model's survivability by granting it resistance to pain, or the ability to regrow damaged flesh. Special rules allow snipers to target the weak spots of their foes, scouts to range ahead of the army and anti-aircraft guns to blow flyers out of the skies."

So you're telling me that when a unit deep strikes, it loses all its special rules for the remainder of that turn? I.e. Tyranids do not have adrenaline glands, dreadnoughts do not have S10 DCCWs, Shrike loses ATSKNF etc?

No, why are you putting words in our mouths?

Is a dreadnoughts DCCW a special rule that has to be used at the start of the turn? No.

Its almost like words mean things.

 Sir Arun wrote:
So you're telling me that when a unit deep strikes, it loses all its special rules for the remainder of that turn? I.e. Tyranids do not have adrenaline glands, dreadnoughts do not have S10 DCCWs, Shrike loses ATSKNF etc?

Do Adrenal Glands, DCCWs, or ATSKNF have to be used at the beginning of the turn?
No?
So why bring them up? It's almost like you knew the answer but wanted to say something that made your position look solid, even though it has no basis in fact.

The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Wargear can grant special rules. And if those rules were used at the time conflicting with deepstrike, then they would not work.

But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.


Most things that you don't need to roll for or require a target can happen while in reserves. No one has answered why the PEN model could not declare it before he deepstruck and avoid the restriction entirely.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Ork Painboy carries a peace of wargear called "Doc's Tools".
It grants the special rule Feel no Pain.
I'm sorry but your proposal is nonsense.
According to you it doesn't grant a special rule (despite clearly doing so).
PEN grants to ability to pick a special rule. At the start of the turn. Something the rules don't allow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Irrelevent. The rule is still picked during the Movement phase, at the start of the turn.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Ork Painboy carries a peace of wargear called "Doc's Tools".
It grants the special rule Feel no Pain.
I'm sorry but your proposal is nonsense.
According to you it doesn't grant a special rule (despite clearly doing so).
PEN grants to ability to pick a special rule. At the start of the turn. Something the rules don't allow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Irrelevent. The rule is still picked during the Movement phase, at the start of the turn.

You are right, wargear does grant special rules. Nothing in the deepstrike rules prevents a rule from being granted. It prevents a rule from being used. The rules granted don't get used till later.

What prevents you from being granted a rule when you deepstrike in? Your argument hinges on the idea that because you had to make a choice then it must be disallowed by the deepstrike.

And why is everyone avoiding the question as to what prevents the PEN from being used before the deepstrike? Things that happen at the same time the player gets to choose the order.
So you choose your rule with the PEN, then deepstrike after.

This has nothing to do with Deepstrike, your simply evading the issue.

The PEN has to be used at the start of the turn. You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Steel = so youre not using any ability then?

Absolutely none?

Sure of that?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Ork Painboy carries a peace of wargear called "Doc's Tools".
It grants the special rule Feel no Pain.
I'm sorry but your proposal is nonsense.
According to you it doesn't grant a special rule (despite clearly doing so).
PEN grants to ability to pick a special rule. At the start of the turn. Something the rules don't allow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Irrelevent. The rule is still picked during the Movement phase, at the start of the turn.

What I am saying is that wargear can grant a special rule or ability, but it is not a special rule or ability. You can get things like FNP from a piece of wargear, but that wargear is still wargear and not an ability.

I would allow it. Logan's FAQs deal with the same thing, Choosing an special rule at the start of the turn, which is not USED by the UNIT until later in the turn. The unit (or any of its models) are not using a special rule, ability, power or other at the start of the turn. Should not fall under this restriction RAW wise, and Logan's FAQ is a good example. - Not particularly for any ability etc, but for specifically this type which is a bit iffy RAI wise.

The fact you can't use anything at the start of the turn is a misconception, the models or unit can not use abilities etc. PEC requires nothing of the unit, this is how it, and Logan's rule differs from most.

The unit is bestowed a special rule from wargear via player choice. I think the action being on the player being the crunch. The unit isn't using anything - until the point they use the granted special rule.

RAW wise I'd like to see how this is an action by the unit or one of its models- if not RAW it can be used.

Ability is not a well defined term at any rate.

Fragile wrote:
The PEN has to be used at the start of the turn.

Please define "used". Is a stealth suit used, or a thunder hammer, or a almost any piece of war gear? Or is it just there conferring what it confers when required to?

You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Saying "period" does not win any points as you cant prove that choosing a special rule is = to using an ability. *opinion*
AND you could simply choose that it happens before coming on the board.

Used: You have to pick which of the abilities the PEN will give. Therefore you cannot use it the turn you come in from reserves. You again try to hide behind nuances.

Fragile wrote:
Used: You have to pick which of the abilities the PEN will give. Therefore you cannot use it the turn you come in from reserves. You again try to hide behind nuances.

/your opinion

Support that with a page number saying that first the PEN is "used" because you have to make a choice.
And second that because it is used, it is considered an ability.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Used: You have to pick which of the abilities the PEN will give. Therefore you cannot use it the turn you come in from reserves. You again try to hide behind nuances.

Also, by this interpretation, Jump infantry can only walk on the board 6" as they are not allowed to use their jump packs.

Steel - so you arent using anything? Your choice of ability isnt somethign you "do", it just occurs, from thin air?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Saying "period" does not win any points as you cant prove that choosing a special rule is = to using an ability. *opinion*
AND you could simply choose that it happens before coming on the board.

Let me get this straight. Your argument is that the ability to chose a special rule at the start of your turn is not an ability that is used at the start of your turn? Correct?

What else is it then?

Fragile wrote:


Also, by this interpretation, Jump infantry can only walk on the board 6" as they are not allowed to use their jump packs.

Please elaborate why you think that would be the case.

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Saying "period" does not win any points as you cant prove that choosing a special rule is = to using an ability. *opinion*
AND you could simply choose that it happens before coming on the board.

Let me get this straight. Your argument is that the ability to chose a special rule at the start of your turn is not an ability that is used at the start of your turn? Correct?

What else is it then?

Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have the "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk them on tge board, right? After all the ability to choise something is disallowed after comming on from reserves.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

Can you move them after tge movenent phase?
And like mentioned before: there is no requirement with the PENfor it to even be on the board. Since it and comming on from reserves hapoen at the same time, just select your rule before reserves because you can, then bring the model on.

Yeah in 6th edition there is no hard and fast rule saying Jump infantry move 12" during the movement phase. Instead, you are given the CHOICE at the start of your movement phase to either decide for a 12" more, or a 6" move and HoW attack during charge for that turn.

When Jump units deep strike, they can't move or charge anyways though, so the jump pack wargear is not used for that turn.

Even if they could, the keyword here is "use". And they are using their piece of wargear (jump pack), not using a special rule or using an ability (which they cannot do the turn they deep strike, as per BRB p.125). Similarly, the PEN is a piece of wargear that is used and there is no restriction for this.

"Using" the jump pack (wargear) to get the extra move distance is also an "ability" or "special rule", but it only kicks in when you use a piece of wargear. You arent using an ability or special rule, you are using a piece of wargear to get an ability or, in the case of the PEN, a USR.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

Can you move them after tge movenent phase?
And like mentioned before: there is no requirement with the PENfor it to even be on the board. Since it and comming on from reserves hapoen at the same time, just select your rule before reserves because you can, then bring the model on.

Why are you answering my question with a question. I am not at my books atm. Does Jump infantry specify that the choice is done at the start of your turn?

 Sir Arun wrote:
Yeah in 6th edition there is no hard and fast rule saying Jump infantry move 12" during the movement phase. Instead, you are given the CHOICE at the start of your movement phase to either decide for a 12" more, or a 6" move and HoW attack during charge for that turn.

When Jump units deep strike, they can't move or charge anyways though, so the jump pack wargear is not used for that turn.

Walking on from reserves, not deepstrike.
12" move, or disallowed and onky 6"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

Can you move them after tge movenent phase?
And like mentioned before: there is no requirement with the PENfor it to even be on the board. Since it and comming on from reserves hapoen at the same time, just select your rule before reserves because you can, then bring the model on.

Why are you answering my question with a question. I am not at my books atm. Does Jump infantry specify that the choice is done at the start of your turn?

Because you cant make the choice any other time.........

So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Because you cant make the choice any other time.........

Again ... im not at my books. Does jump infantry specify that the choice must be made at the start of your turn or does it not specify that?

There is still nothing being 'used' by the models. If the models or unit is not 'using' it, then it does not fall under the restriction which has been quoted.

What action does the unit take in regards to PEC at the start of the turn? If the unit is not taking an action, no special rule or ability is being 'used by the unit'.




Look at all the special rules you can't use (Tervigon spawning, Blessings, malediction, etc) all are abilities which are used by the model/unit. The read Logans rule, and the rules for Engram. There is a very definate difference, nothing is being used by the unit which is probably why Logans got a FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

Well if you want to argue semantics, here's another one for ya:

P. 73 of the Tau codex says: "At the start of the bearer's Movement phase"

P. 125 of the BRB says "...that rnust be used at the start of the turn"

Yeah, if the Crisis suits aren't the first unit that I am moving, then by the time I get to them, it is no longer the start of the turn. The Tau codex does not say I have to pick the PEN's ability at the start of the turn, so case closed.

If the Tau Codex had said "At the start of your turn,...", then you guys would be right.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

Keep dodging that you could just use the PEN before rolling for reserves, making the whole silly idea that its an ability to choose moot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:
There is still nothing being 'used' by the models. If the models or unit is not 'using' it, then it does not fall under the restriction which has been quoted.

What action does the unit take in regards to PEC at the start of the turn? If the unit is not taking an action, no special rule or ability is being 'used by the unit'.

They think player making a decision = model perfoming an action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

Well if you want to argue semantics, here's another one for ya:

P. 73 of the Tau codex says: "At the start of the bearer's Movement phase"

P. 125 of the BRB says "...that rnust be used at the start of the turn"

Yeah, if the Crisis suits aren't the first unit that I am moving, then by the time I get to them, it is no longer the start of the turn. The Tau codex does not say I have to pick the PEN's ability at the start of the turn, so case closed.

If the Tau Codex had said "At the start of your turn,...", then you guys would be right.

Good call. I think thats /thread fir his argument.

It is still an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase (which IS the start of the turn) so no matter which order you pick, you still cannot use the PEN.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is still an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase (which IS the start of the turn) so no matter which order you pick, you still cannot use the PEN.

I'd like to see a page number where "a bearer's movement phase" doesn't start when you get to them, but starts simultaneously with all your others units' at the start of your turn, please.


Because if this is correct - and lets say the Crisis suits arent in reserve and thus not deepstriking but already on the table - the first thing I would have to do as a Tau player each turn is announce what ability my PEN gives, even if I am not moving my Crisis suits before others, or otherwise I cannot use it as I would already be past the "beginning of the bearer's movement phase" by the time I have moved some other units and get to my Commander.

When does the bearers movement phase begin?
My interpretation would say the bearers movement phase is your movement phase ... since start of movement phase is interchangeable with start of turn you cant use the chip when coming in from reserve.

You would have a point if it was worded "before moving" or something to that extent.

Arun - how many movement phases are there? Theres your rule quote. There isnt a movement phase per unit, but one movement phase that your untis have, and then one movement phase that the enemy unit has.

Simultaneous events are simultaneous. See: moving on from reserves and Blessings.

Arun, read the Tervigon rule for a difference between the model moving and movement phase. There is only 1 Movement Phase in your turn.

Keep dodging that you could just use the PEN before rolling for reserves, making the whole silly idea that its an ability to choose moot

Except the rules say you cannot, but your simply trolling now.

But why does it say "bearer's" and why not simply "your"? I have many codices since I collect multiple armies, and IRRC GW very seldomly uses the word "bearer" when describing wargear or special rules.

 Sir Arun wrote:
But why does it say "bearer's" and why not simply "your"? I have many codices since I collect multiple armies, and IRRC GW very seldomly uses the word "bearer" when describing wargear or special rules.

Because GWs writing is inconsistent.

Nevertheless the point is that its not like every unit has its own movement phase.

There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Personally, I do agree that start of movement phase and start of the turn are the same thing. But this is not an issue here, nothing stops a unit from being granted a special rule or ability that is a result of another rule at the start of either on the turn it arrives.

So again, to be bound by the restriction, what action is the unit (or containing models) taking?

 Nem wrote:
There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Really? Are you sure it doesn't say ability? Personally I'd make sure before I made a big bolded statement like that.

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

I bolded the word you missed.


The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

rigeld2 wrote:
The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

This bit confuses me. Are you saying that if an ability must be used, it can?

If so where is the option not to use the PEC?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

This bit confuses me. Are you saying that if an ability must be used, it can?

If so where is the option not to use the PEC?

No, I'm saying that the limitation is on abilities that MUST be used at the beginning of the movement phase.
When must the PNE be used?
When must Jump Packs be used? (Movement and assault.)

ALso - any time during the movement phase, and not just at the start.

If choosing a special rule isnt an ability granted by wargear, then can I please choose it for my chaos as well?

Okay that makes more sense now. However, the Jet/Jump pack walking in from reserve does cause an issue though. At least for me. as I use such units on outflank, and being restricted to 6" movement causes problems.

Is the 12" movement granted by a JP captured by P125?

If not, why not? and if so why?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Is the 12" movement granted by a JP captured by P125?

No. You are not required to use the jump pack at the beginning of the movement phase. You use it for movement and assaulting, meaning that it is not something that must be used at the beginning of the movement phase.

Okay, but it is a special rule as per p47, and you would have to declare that you are using it before moving the 12". And (I think it was Nos) pointed out that there is no such thing as phased movement, so that anything declared before moving a unit is considered the start of the movement phase.

So yes, while the JP can be used in other phases, (but it can't anyway because you've just arrived from reserve and can't assault) you still shouldn't be able to use it in the movement phase, because its wargear that provides a special rule which has to be declared before movement, which P125 forbids.

My head hurts!

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
So yes, while the JP can be used in other phases, (but it can't anyway because you've just arrived from reserve and can't assault) you still shouldn't be able to use it in the movement phase, because its wargear that provides a special rule which has to be declared before movement, which P125 forbids.

You're misunderstanding page 125.
If the special rule must be used at the beginning of the movement phase, you cannot use it that turn.
Since the special rule in question (jump movement) can be used at times other than the beginning of the movement phase, page 125 does not apply.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

The bolded phrase "fixes" a lot of the issues people are bringing up. PNE must be used at the start of the turn. Jump packs do not have that restriction.

 AndrewC wrote:
Okay, but it is a special rule as per p47, and you would have to declare that you are using it before moving the 12". And (I think it was Nos) pointed out that there is no such thing as phased movement, so that anything declared before moving a unit is considered the start of the movement phase.

So yes, while the JP can be used in other phases, (but it can't anyway because you've just arrived from reserve and can't assault) you still shouldn't be able to use it in the movement phase, because its wargear that provides a special rule which has to be declared before movement, which P125 forbids.

My head hurts!

Cheers

Andrew

The jump pack doesnt let you choose to use it. It lets you choose to not use it if you wish.

p47

Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish.

Note that it states that you can always choose to do that. So a jump unit CAN, in fact, use the jump packs when coming from reserve. It can also chose to not use the packs.

Okay, I'm derailing the thread.

Thank you for taking the time to answer, just to keep this post OT and not spam, I think that RAW the PEC doesnt work, but the RAI it should.

Cheers

Andrew

I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

So you admit your previous assertions were incorrect? Cool.

And can you cite somewhere - anywhere - that individual models have a movement phase? Or are you making that up as well?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

Scrambling? The rules are clear on that the start of the movement phase is the start of the turn, you just ignore them and try to distract the issue.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Really? Are you sure it doesn't say ability? Personally I'd make sure before I made a big bolded statement like that.

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

I bolded the word you missed.


The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

It does indeed say ability. The point I was making comes there on the second line in which I say the lack of focus is the unit. The point is everyone's going on about the fact an ability is used, which isn't what the restriction says. It says THE UNIT CAN NOT USE AN ABILITY. Seriously I don't think I can make this point clearer. You posted the rule right there. The unit is not using an ability is a passive choice which grants a special rule. How Logan's high thingy is a passive choice where the unit does not use an ability. The unit is not using an ability. An ability is not being used by the unit, no choice or action is placed on the unit, no interference by the unit is required.

 Nem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Really? Are you sure it doesn't say ability? Personally I'd make sure before I made a big bolded statement like that.

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

I bolded the word you missed.


The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

It does indeed say ability. The point I was making comes there on the second line in which I say the lack of focus is the unit.

That may be what you meant, but it's not even close to what you said. Am I supposed to read your mind through the internet?

The point is everyone's going on about the fact an ability is used, which isn't what the restriction says. It says THE UNIT CAN NOT USE AN ABILITY. Seriously I don't think I can make this point clearer. You posted the rule right there. The unit is not using an ability is a passive choice which grants a special rule. How Logan's high thingy is a passive choice where the unit does not use an ability. The unit is not using an ability. An ability is not being used by the unit, no choice or action is placed on the unit, no interference by the unit is required.

No choice by the unit? Are you sure about that?
And whether it's passive or not, the ability is used. Trying to argue using Logan's High King ability will get me asking if you put ICs in your drop pods.

Fragile wrote:
Arun, read the Tervigon rule for a difference between the model moving and movement phase. There is only 1 Movement Phase in your turn.

Keep dodging that you could just use the PEN before rolling for reserves, making the whole silly idea that its an ability to choose moot

Except the rules say you cannot, but your simply trolling now.

What rules say you cant? Google brings up many topics on this very board where its discussed that things that do not require dice to be rolled, or a target to be targeted, dont require the model to be on the board to happen. Most things just dont have any effect if the model is not on the board so are worthless to do if the model is not on the board yet.

So you are given permission "at the start of the movement phase" to choose a rule using the PEN. No restriction is present that the model must be on the board. It and reserves, by your reading of "bearers movement phase", happen simultaiously. So the player gets to choose the order. Player selects his rule for the PEN, then enters from reserve.

The "after entering from reserves" restriction then never comes into play as the rule was selected before it used the reserve rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

Scrambling? The rules are clear on that the start of the movement phase is the start of the turn, you just ignore them and try to distract the issue.

of the bearers movement phase....

There's a big difference between the model, who is the bearer, and the players entire armies movement phase.
One lets you move other models around before happening, and the other occurs before anything moves.

Q. Blessingsare manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ (there is your Bearer) – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, (there is start of turn), Outflanking rolls(start of Turn) etc and if so which is solved first? (p68)

A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

Again, you are proven incorrect.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


There's a big difference between the model, who is the bearer, and the players entire armies movement phase.
One lets you move other models around before happening, and the other occurs before anything moves.

Could you please lead me to the part in the rules that defines a models movement phase?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

Scrambling? The rules are clear on that the start of the movement phase is the start of the turn, you just ignore them and try to distract the issue.

of the bearers movement phase....

There's a big difference between the model, who is the bearer, and the players entire armies movement phase.
One lets you move other models around before happening, and the other occurs before anything moves.

You seem to be confused between a model's movement and a model's movement phase. You do understand they're two different things, right?

And still no disputation of just doing it before reserves.

Still no proof its an activated "ability".

Still no explanation of why another rule with the exact same wording is allowed and think this one is not other than "he's special"

So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
And still no disputation of just doing it before reserves.

There is no dispute over this. You can do it whenever you feel you think you should. However, It will have no effect, because you cannot use abilities that have to be done at the start of the turn, when you arrive from reserves.

Still no proof its an activated "ability".

Then how do you use the PEN if it is not "activated" ?

At the start of the bearer's Movement phase, choose one of the following special rules

This must mean that it always picks something if you do not, since its not an "activated" ability. What is the default SR that PEN uses since you dont "activate" it?


Remember this?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Wargear can grant special rules. And if those rules were used at the time conflicting with deepstrike, then they would not work.

But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Funny you keep changing your argument each time your proven wrong. PEN is required to be used at the start of turn, therefore cannot be used.

Still no explanation of why another rule with the exact same wording is allowed and think this one is not other than "he's special"

Because GW wanted it to work that way, just like Nid IC's cannot join units in transports. Until you have a FAQ saying you can use the PEN, then it will not work. GW has had the opportunity to do so, but chosen not to.

So whats your next failed argument?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon

Except you can outflank Logan or walk him on and get around your silly nuisance. If Logan walks on the board, he doesn't need to worry about the nid FAQ, which applies to a MC being able to carry things, not a transport vehicle that is allowed to have IC's join up inside them. Using your logic you cannot attach IC's to any squad that will be embarking on a vehicle, which is not correct.

 Mulletdude wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon

Except you can outflank Logan or walk him on and get around your silly nuisance. If Logan walks on the board, he doesn't need to worry about the nid FAQ, which applies to a MC being able to carry things, not a transport vehicle that is allowed to have IC's join up inside them. Using your logic you cannot attach IC's to any squad that will be embarking on a vehicle, which is not correct.

Actually, that's the logic of anyone who uses Logan's FAQ as a basis for their argument that's incorrect.
Nos is one of the people saying you can't use it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon

#1: If the claim was being made that IC's in other armies could not go in drop pods, and there were not specific rules to the contrary, yes the Nid FAQ would lend support to that argument. But there are special rules in the drop pod armies that tell you otherwise. So unlike Logan, the rules are not worded the exact same as the drop pod rules specifically allow it while the nid rules do not. So its not comparable to Logans rule which is worded exactly the same as the PEN.



#2: Kinda like your blind assertation that the human player making a choice is the same as a model using an ability? Yup.....suuuuure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

There is no dispute over this. You can do it whenever you feel you think you should. However, It will have no effect, because you cannot use abilities that have to be done at the start of the turn, when you arrive from reserves.

You might be right on this one. I just checked and the reserve rules don't say anything about not using powers AFTER coming on the board, but says cant be used in the same turn. Its wonky logic as you could in theory use the PEN first because they happen at the same time, then come on from reserves and lose the PEN due to the Reserve rules, or be disallowed from entering play because you did use an ability that turn already. (if we assume the PEN is an ability)

Fragile wrote:
Then how do you use the PEN if it is not "activated" ?

At the start of the bearer's Movement phase, choose one of the following special rules

This must mean that it always picks something if you do not, since its not an "activated" ability. What is the default SR that PEN uses since you dont "activate" it?

Lots of passive things are lost if you dont remember them. Just because you forget to choose a rule does not mean it has to have a default or its an ability.

Fragile wrote:
Remember this?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Wargear can grant special rules. And if those rules were used at the time conflicting with deepstrike, then they would not work.

But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Funny you keep changing your argument each time your proven wrong. PEN is required to be used at the start of turn, therefore cannot be used.

We've already been over how we don't like some FAQ's. Why bring up totally irrelevant FAQ's to prove how some don't fit with RAW, when there’s a very real reason why one which is being brought forward here, with explanation as to how it is different.

Unless YMDC now dismisses all FAQ entries because a few of the entries (I'm talking like, 1%) are changing the rules, and even then different people have different ideas on which FAQ entries may or may not have changed the rules, and much of that being down to how you interpreted the rule in the first place. If I bring up a FAQ on the subject then you will be up a totally irrelevant FAQ that somehow proves this FAQ is not valid. Even the Nid FAQ and drop pods are a bad example - Spore pods don't have the same rules as drop pods in the first place - they don't have a transport capacity or rules around the IC's and how many slots it would take up. Only certain units are allowed to use Spore's and then those units have different allowances for how many of each unit may be transported in it. How would I work out a unit of Hormagaunts with a Tyranid prime? Its impossible to do becuase the rules for Spore pods do not support other models being able to fit in it - The rules for drop pods do support this, RAW wise a Nid IC could never fit in a spore pod with another unit before the FAQ, however we know RAW for drop pods is different.

Do I believe that Logan’s High King FAQ changes the rules? – No. Because the restriction is there to stop deepstriking units immediately instagibbing the opponent, High King is not used by the unit, though the granted special rules are then used by the unit at different points in the turn. I think RAW in the rule book is written that the ‘unit’ used the rules for a reason – these sort of passive abilities where the unit does not do anything is outside the remit of the purpose of the rule, and so should not be subject to that restriction. The FAQ singled out this ability and it did so for a reason - because it is not under the restriction in the first place.

RAW is the unit cannot use an ability.
PEC – the unit is not using an ability

That’s it. There is a literal RAW & RAI argument with a backing FAQ.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


No one has proven anything. In order to prove your case, you must prove that "player making a choice"="model using an ability". And that something that is not proven anywhere in the rule book.

Ah and what about proving that it is not an ability that must always be used at the start of the movement phase. So far you say "its not" and think you get away with it.

As the text of the PEN proves it is indeed used at the beginning of the turn. Please find something in the PEN rules that either states its not an ability or find something that clearly defines in general what an ability is or not. If you cant find such a thing then everything that is used at the start of the turn is an ability that falls under the rule. Since we have a general restriction you'd need a specific allowance to overwrite the rule. Not the other way around. A specific allowance Logan has (through faq) but PEN has not.

Steel, go look up the definition of ability and you will find it. I know you asked for the definition of "used" already. You will find yet another of your arguments proven wrong.

Steel - there are no specific rules stating ICs may go inside drop pods. There are rules stating how ICs can start inside dedicated transports, but DTs in general - not specific to pods. So no, youre wrong on this. You can make a (bad) claim that as nid ICs do not get to ride in their DP analogue, noone does. It has as much support as claiming THK FAQ applies.

So there is no ability being granted by this wargear? I am not using an abiltiy (make this choice) when using the PEN? You are drawing this entirely unsupported disctinction between "abilty" and "choice" - being able to make a choice is an ability, and that is a fact.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Steel - there are no specific rules stating ICs may go inside drop pods. There are rules stating how ICs can start inside dedicated transports, but DTs in general - not specific to pods. So no, youre wrong on this. You can make a (bad) claim that as nid ICs do not get to ride in their DP analogue, noone does. It has as much support as claiming THK FAQ applies.

So there is no ability being granted by this wargear? I am not using an abiltiy (make this choice) when using the PEN? You are drawing this entirely unsupported disctinction between "abilty" and "choice" - being able to make a choice is an ability, and that is a fact.

Even the Nid FAQ and drop pods are a bad example - Spore pods don't have the same rules as drop pods in the first place - they don't have a transport capacity or rules around the IC's and how many slots it would take up. Only certain units are allowed to use Spore's and then those units have different allowances for how many of each unit may be transported in it. How would I work out a unit of Hormagaunts with a Tyranid prime? Its impossible to do becuase the rules for Spore pods do not support other models being able to fit in it - The rules for drop pods do however support this, RAW wise a Nid IC could never fit in a spore pod with another unit before the FAQ, that is not the same for drop pods.

Just looking at the rules for Spods and Drods you can see why you can't for Spods, but can for Drods. No one is claiming just because Nid's can't others can't, were saying comparing how valid other FAQ's are across codex’s has nothing to do with this thread and this FAQ and these rules.

The WHY for Nids Pods is not the same WHY that allows IC's in Drop pods.
The WHY that allows High King is the same WHY that allows PEC. Because RAW wise there is no restriction on the player using an ability.

 Nem wrote:

The WHY for Nids Pods is not the same WHY that allows IC's in Drop pods.
The WHY that allows High King is the same WHY that allows PEC. Because RAW wise there is no restriction on the player using an ability.

Dont forget that C:SW is a 5th Edition Codex. The author probably wasnt aware that 6th edition will forbid the use of his ability. The Tau codex on the other hand was written with the knowledge that 6th has such a restriction.

So the intent behind the wording (and the fact there is a faq for Logan) may be completely different although they are similar.

It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.

 Mywik wrote:

 Nem wrote:

The WHY for Nids Pods is not the same WHY that allows IC's in Drop pods.
The WHY that allows High King is the same WHY that allows PEC. Because RAW wise there is no restriction on the player using an ability.

Dont forget that C:SW is a 5th Edition Codex. The author probably wasnt aware that 6th edition will forbid the use of his ability. The Tau codex on the other hand was written with the knowledge that 6th has such a restriction.

So the intent behind the wording (and the fact there is a faq for Logan) may be completely different although they are similar.

No, it could not be. But its highly unlikely just becuase its a 5ED ability they allow it - considering all other 5ED abilities have not been FAQ'd, and theres still alot of them out there.

Sir Arun - Not really. Again like Logans ability, as it does not require the unit to do anything, the unit do not even have to be on the board. Rumours are the FAQ system is changing to a more real time format, so while they have this change ongoing we are unlikely to see many FAQ releases in the near future.

 Sir Arun wrote:
It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.

Similar to being forbidden from going flat out and disembarking in the same turn, you'd be breaking a rule to do so. Either you cannot choose an ability or you cannot bring that unit in from reserves. You cannot do both.

 Nem wrote:


No, it could not be. But its highly unlikely just becuase its a 5ED ability they allow it - considering all other 5ED abilities have not been FAQ'd, and theres still alot of them out there.

So you are telling me that the intent of both authors was the same when they wrote the words?

Both rulings were written under completely different reserve rules. Thats a fact. So it could indeed be intended by the tau codex to limit the PENs use. I know thats speculation. But thats the problem of every single RAI argument ever made. Its speculation.

 Mywik wrote:

 Nem wrote:


No, it could not be. But its highly unlikely just becuase its a 5ED ability they allow it - considering all other 5ED abilities have not been FAQ'd, and theres still alot of them out there.

So you are telling me that the intent of both authors was the same when they wrote the words?

No. A) There's no way to prove that. B) We know the intent of the Logan rule was for it to work on entry from Reserves - there was no restriction in place when the codex was written. There was a restriction in place before the codex was written for Tau. Therefore we must assume the Tau author was aware of the rule and wrote the PEN rule to coexist with the reserves rule, intending that you cannot choose a rule if you deep strike.

Both rulings were written under completely different reserve rules. Thats a fact. So it could indeed be intended by the tau codex to limit the PENs use. I know thats speculation. But thats the problem of every single RAI argument ever made. Its speculation.

In this case it's speculation without basis. You have nothing other than an assumption that it should work to prove RAI. There is tangible evidence to the contrary (that the p125 rule existed before the Tau codex).

rigeld2 wrote:

We know the intent of the Logan rule was for it to work on entry from Reserves - there was no restriction in place when the codex was written. There was a restriction in place before the codex was written for Tau. Therefore we must assume the Tau author was aware of the rule and wrote the PEN rule to coexist with the reserves rule, intending that you cannot choose a rule if you deep strike.
.

Thats exactly what i said.

In this case it's speculation without basis. You have nothing other than an assumption that it should work to prove RAI. There is tangible evidence to the contrary (that the p125 rule existed before the Tau codex).

I never assumed it works. I did the opposite in this argument.

 Sir Arun wrote:
It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.

Other than the fact that if you are coming in from reserves any power you choose you cannot use? Your reserve roll order has nothing to do with it.

But the person who wrote the Tau rule did so knowing there was a faq released allowing essentially the same ability to trigger, and chose still to word it in the same way- with the unit not using anything.

 Nem wrote:
But the person who wrote the Tau rule did so knowing there was a faq released allowing essentially the same ability to trigger, and chose still to word it in the same way- with the unit not using anything.

And in knowing about the reserve rule and how specific > general work, he would have stated that it could be used the turn in came in from reserves.

Fragile wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.

Other than the fact that if you are coming in from reserves any power you choose you cannot use? Your reserve roll order has nothing to do with it.

Then I'm not going to allow my opponent to make psychic shooting attacks after they deep strike. Psychic Powers and other abilities that are used during shooting and assault phase are perfectly fine to use.

I still haven't seen anyone rightly explain how to get around the fact that, much like a psycher gaining his warp charges or a unit in reserves having to roll to come on the board starting in turn 2, the wording on the PEN chip is stated as something you must do and not an optional thing. Cause if it is in fact an optional thing then I do believe I am going to start delaying my reserve rolls till more strategic moments.

 Miri wrote:
Then I'm not going to allow my opponent to make psychic shooting attacks after they deep strike. Psychic Powers and other abilities that are used during shooting and assault phase are perfectly fine to use.

So PSAs/witchfires that are used during the shooting phase are no but psychic powers during the shooting phase are okay?

I still haven't seen anyone rightly explain how to get around the fact that, much like a psycher gaining his warp charges or a unit in reserves having to roll to come on the board starting in turn 2, the wording on the PEN chip is stated as something you must do and not an optional thing. Cause if it is in fact an optional thing then I do believe I am going to start delaying my reserve rolls till more strategic moments.

When must the PEN be used?
What does p125 restrict?
When has anyone said the PEN is optional?
Why do you think that's relevant?

 Nem wrote:
But the person who wrote the Tau rule did so knowing there was a faq released allowing essentially the same ability to trigger, and chose still to word it in the same way- with the unit not using anything.

They also knew how the the rule in the rulebook worked, and chose to word it in such a way that it would apply.

rigeld2 wrote:

When must the PEN be used?
What does p125 restrict?
When has anyone said the PEN is optional?
Why do you think that's relevant?

I think it is relevant because psyckers get their warp charges at the start of movement phase. If they are in reserve and come on the field that turn, by p125 they can't generate warp charges. The psychic section says it is an automatic generation but there is no exception in the text that says 'even on the turn they come in from reserve'. Therefor I argue that if the 'must generate warp charges' of psychers happens then the 'must choose one of four powers' of the PEN happens.

delete

Thats the point though - it doesn't apply.
The unit it not using an ability. The restriction is a unit can not use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn when arriving from reserves, this is specifically forbidding the models from using an ability- the problem with PEN is the unit is not using an ability until they use the special rule PEN grants, which are used later in the turn. PEN is a passive ability where the 'unit' do not 'use' an ability.

Granting an ability or special rule to the unit =/= a unit using an ability or special rule.

PEN is the first of those things.

Passive 'abilities' with no action from the unit do not come under the restriction on 125, neither does granting the unit a special rule. If this were the case then we could not cast blessings on the unit, PEN is in essence an blessing which can only be applied to a specific unit and the source is the player, rather than another model on the board. Warp charge generation has already been noted as a passive ability..

PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.
Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.
PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear, the unit isn't 'using the wargear' these are passive.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn

Right there, you've said it yourself.
You're using it's ability to grant a special rule.
Whether that special rule is used then and there is irrelevant. The ability to grant it has been used, and at the start if the turn, violating a rule.

@grendel083
So psykers also can't generate Warp Charges the turn they come in from reserves?

You may want to respond to the whole post instead of just one line of it.

The Psyker issue has been raised and address previously. I felt no need to do so again.

Also you're actively choosing a special rule from a list. This hardly makes it "passive". Quite the opposite.

Sorry, but I can't find the exception in the book for generating Warp Charges when arriving from reserves.

Can you send me the page number?

 Nilok wrote:
Sorry, but I can't find the exception in the book for generating Warp Charges when arriving from reserves.
Can you send me the page number?

First, it one could argue that that generating Warp charge is not actually using an ability: as BRB said "There is no need to do anything - it happens automatically". Note that this argument is unnecessary though, as there is extremely strong implication for the exception being in place on page 67:

brb page 67 wrote: On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase.

If Psykers didn't generate warp charges at all when arriving from Reserve, they would have written that instead.

So your argument goes to the "models without eyes cannot draw LOS for shooting" category. Technically it might be correct, but good luck finding anyone who actually plays it that way.

Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

SM Chapter Tactics.

They are chosen at the start of the turn, the unit doesn't need anything, but the units have the chapter tactics rule.

AFAIK sm chapter tactics isn't a unit activating an ability, it's you activating an ability for your army (well, that detachment). Not comparable. Next.

 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.

I know what you were trying to say, but your statement here proved yourself wrong.

Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.

Can you show me the rule that lets me NOT generate a warp charge. There is no choice in the matter.

PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear

Again your proving your stance to be false. PEN gives you the ability to choose a special rule at the start of the turn. You cannot use that ability the turn you arrive from reserves.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

At the start of the Bearer's movement phase = At the start of the turn, so again you show your position incorrect.

 Nem wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

SM Chapter Tactics.

They are chosen at the start of the turn, the unit doesn't need anything, but the units have the chapter tactics rule.

Do they work the turn you arrive from reserves? If so, why? (Aimed at the ones disagreeing)

Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

SM Chapter Tactics.

They are chosen at the start of the turn, the unit doesn't need anything, but the units have the chapter tactics rule.

Do they work the turn you arrive from reserves? If so, why? (Aimed at the ones disagreeing)

rigeld2 wrote:AFAIK sm chapter tactics isn't a unit activating an ability, it's you activating an ability for your army (well, that detachment). Not comparable. Next.

It's like I already responded or something...

I should clarify at least one of the tactics is a choice between x and y at the beginning of each turn, don't have the book open in fronts of me to know if they all do but it has been brought up on Dakka briefly before


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chapter tactics are unit rules, while shared across the army the unit holds the rule allowing you to benefit from them. The only difference between PEN and the tactics is the choice for tactics can affect many units (as many have the rule) while PEN can only effect the one unit (as the one unit has the rule allowing them to benefit from it). On a unit by unit basis, there is no difference in the workings of PEN and Chapter Tactics.

 Nem wrote:
I should clarify at least one of the tactics is a choice between x and y at the beginning of each turn, don't have the book open in fronts of me to know if they all do but it has been brought up on Dakka briefly before

Looking at them right now, I don't see any unit activated rules.

Chapter tactics are unit rules, while shared across the army the unit holds the rule allowing you to benefit from them. The only difference between PEN and the tactics is the choice for tactics can affect many units (as many have the rule) while PEN can only effect the one unit (as the one unit has the rule allowing them to benefit from it)

Which is a massive difference - it's the difference between the unit using the ability (you know, what page 125 denies) and the detachment using an ability (page 125 is silent on).
Sweeping that under the rug doesn't do your argument any justice.

You might be thinking of the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic.
This is chosen for the whole detachment however, not units.

So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

Fragile wrote:

 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.

I know what you were trying to say, but your statement here proved yourself wrong.

Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.

Can you show me the rule that lets me NOT generate a warp charge. There is no choice in the matter.

PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear

Again your proving your stance to be false. PEN gives you the ability to choose a special rule at the start of the turn. You cannot use that ability the turn you arrive from reserves.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

At the start of the Bearer's movement phase = At the start of the turn, so again you show your position incorrect.

"At the beginning of the movement phase the Psyker generates warp charges"
"At the start of turn 2 if a unit is in reserves roll to see if it comes on the field"
"At the beginning of the movement phase High King So and So chooses a USR" (which we know from the FAQ that he gets to use in the ensuing Shooting and or Assault phase).
"At the beginning of the bearers movement phase choose a USR"

These are all examples of rules of actions that we have to perform, we do not have a choice they are all automatic. Why then can a psycher generate his warp charges even though he just deepstruck and can't use abilities that have to be used at the start of movement phase, or the High King can use his ability to choose a USR, or why we are not allowed to delay rolling for reserves but we can't choose a USR that we are told we have to by the codex?

Doesnt a psyker start the game with as many warp charges as he has mastery level?

If so, say a SM librarian in power armor deep striking on turn 2 would have 2 warp charges no matter what.

And unless I'm mistaken you cannot have more warp charges than you have mastery level, so the libby not being able to generate warp charges on turn 2 wouldnt matter at all.

A Psyker generates Warp Charges equal to its mastery level at the start of the turn.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.

The "Liber Heresius" wargear in the new mini Codex: Inquisition.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

No. Units do not use Chapter Tactics. They benefit when you use them, but that's not the same thing.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

The arriving unit does not use a Chapter Tactics no matter how many times you say they do.

What makes the PEN an ability that the model is using?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

No. Units do not use Chapter Tactics. They benefit when you use them, but that's not the same thing.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

The arriving unit does not use a Chapter Tactics no matter how many times you say they do.

Sounds like the PEN and all your arguments against it.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

No. Units do not use Chapter Tactics. They benefit when you use them, but that's not the same thing.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

The arriving unit does not use a Chapter Tactics no matter how many times you say they do.

Sounds like the PEN and all your arguments against it.

... No, it's nothing like the PEN. One is unit based, one is detachment based. Glossing over that is ignorant at best.

Text removed.

Reds8n

Such a loss. Although, that's probably not the right word - I'm sorry for offending you.

Glossing over that difference after it's been pointed out is disingenuous.

Fragile wrote:

 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.

I know what you were trying to say, but your statement here proved yourself wrong.

Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.

Can you show me the rule that lets me NOT generate a warp charge. There is no choice in the matter.

PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear

Again your proving your stance to be false. PEN gives you the ability to choose a special rule at the start of the turn. You cannot use that ability the turn you arrive from reserves.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

At the start of the Bearer's movement phase = At the start of the turn, so again you show your position incorrect.

It gives me the ability which I use to grant the unit a special rule.... ... that is different from the unit using an ability or special rule.

*****

I agree Chapter tactics, the decision is made for the detachment. But the benefit is granted by the chapter tactics rule the unit has.If they benefit from the choice via the special rule the unit has, is the unit using a special rule? Of course its all semantics, but if there's no difference in the player using an ability to grant a special rule to the unit and the unit using an ability, then semantics are out of the window. Sure, how can the unit gain benefit from the decision without using the chapter tactics special rule?

The thing is, there *is* a difference between a unit using a special rule and you using a special rule.

It's in the sentence I just used in case you were wondering.

I believe a major contention is the wording of the PEN.

The PEN reads.

At the start of your Movement phase, choose a special rule...
This model has that rule until his next Movement phase.

The pro-side reads this as at the start of 'your' (the player's) movement phase, choose a rule. because the rule refers to two subjects, your (the player) and his (the model).

The con-side reads this as both subjects talking about the model, is this correct?

 Nilok wrote:
I believe a major contention is the wording of the PEN.

The PEN reads.

At the start of your Movement phase, choose a special rule...
This model has that rule until his next Movement phase.

The pro-side reads this as at the start of 'your' (the player's) movement phase, choose a rule. because the rule refers to two subjects, your (the player) and his (the model).

The con-side reads this as both subjects talking about the model, is this correct?

I dont know what the con-side thinks but i as someone who thinks the PEN wouldnt work would say yes thats part of the issue. Regarding the chapter tactis in this context the main difference is that chapter tactics is a special rule for your detachment while the PEN is a piece of wargear on a model in the unit. So the PEN grants a special rule when its ability is used to the unit. Why wouldnt the unit be using it when it is their piece of wargear that only grants something to them?

There is only one movement phase per turn. Player's or model's, it can still only refer to the same thing, there aren't separate phases.

 grendel083 wrote:
There is only one movement phase per turn. Player's or model's, it can still only refer to the same thing, there aren't separate phases.

I don't think people are looking at it as two different phases, but instead as talking about two different subjects, player (second person, 'your') and model (third person, 'him'). When someone uses a second person subject, they are normally referring to the reader.

Well perhaps the PEN isnt supposed to work during the turn you deep strike at all.

I mean think about it....it costs 15 points.

It would be a must-have if it worked on all Helios/Sunfire crisis suits deepstriking in and you'd be a complete tool to not take it, given that it doesnt even occupy a hardpoint.

But because it doesnt work on that crucial turn, and still costs 15 points, I think it is balanced.

Of course, it is pretty useless at range although there is still a use for a commander leading a team of crisis suits armed with 2 missile pods each, or a commander attached to a riptide with the heavy burst cannon.

How much do other relics/other one per army upgrades cost?

If something is too cost efficient, like the Riptide or Heldrake, that is one thing, though not being discussed.

 Nilok wrote:
How much do other relics/other one per army upgrades cost?

The C:SM ones are at a minimum double, some quadruple. Not that point costs should be considered when discussing rules.

That was kinda the point I was trying to make.