Today i my sociology research class one of the groups presented about student loans and debt, and how it is affecting students. One of their statements was "You need college degrees to make money" When it came time to talk and ask questions I asked "Is it possible that too many people are lied about needing college to succeed, and we are churning out people with degrees and debt who slide through college gaining no practical skills, especially poorer students who may not have accumulated skills in high school and middle school they need to succeed." A few people got indignant saying I want to keep poor people down(WTF?) and that you must need a degree, or colleges would not exist. Luckily the teacher stepped in to defend me.
But Dakka, this site has taught me alot. So im beggining to wonder, are we fed a lie that college is needed? and too many people go to it? Devaluing degrees in the process?
College is not necessary, especially to have a happy and fulfilling life. There are plenty of ways to make it through life without that piece of paper, many which are on the uptrend again. Manual labor is nothing to be shamed, or disrespected, and it can provide just as well as sitting in that cubicle.
Way too many people go. There are plenty of good jobs out there for people without a 4-year college degree, or even a 2-year degree.
There is a ton of value in trades and vocations which are frowned upon, for whatever reason, in the United States. All the countries that the US is constantly compared to in these academic ratings recognize that value and ensure that their students take the right path.
It's a major failing of our education system in the US.
A lot of people go to college who don't need to. A lot of people go to college for degrees that mean nothing other than that you sat at school for 4 years.
Seriously, history is interesting, and I read wikipedia compulsively, but a history degree is a good way to get a job as a waiter.
Instead of sending everyone to college, regardless of ability or intent, we should be focusing more people on trades. You know what jobs can't be off-shored? Plumbers can't be offshored. No kid in China or India is going to unclog your drain for you over the phone. Mechanics - face it, cars aren't going anywhere, and you're not sending your car to Taiwan to be fixed. There are a lot of trades that need workers, and it's a good honest middle class living.
On the other hand, there are way too many people with degrees in english lit, art history and so on. And because there's too many, they don't get jobs that use those degrees. And, college is expensive, and the long-term outlook for spending 100k on a degree that you won't use is pretty poor.
On the other hand, there are way too many people with degrees in english lit, art history and so on. And because there's too many, they don't get jobs that use those degrees. And, college is expensive, and the long-term outlook for spending 100k on a degree that you won't use is pretty poor.
I'd also add that it's this group that seems least willing to try and find jobs outside of their degree field. Which is just absurd unto itself.
I am 19 years old. I tried telling all my friends they need a passion for what they are going to study etc. I warned them repeatedly about college. Its all good to go but only worth it if you have talent or money or both, but a passion for it is really important. During school and college (here college is different, university is our version of your college) we where told repeatedly to go to university. But the universities are cramped with kids most of whom are badly in debt and didnt know what they wanted todo in the first place.
Now all my friends are poor living at home with parents doing nothing, while i (who started work the hour i left college) am in my own home getting ready for a family.
University/college is a gross exploitation and i hate it. Kids dont know what they wanna do and are sent aimlessly at uni to spend so much money only to end up with a subpar job. I managed to save one of my college friends and now he earns double what i do!
Unless you got passion and talent its not worth going. I might go when im much older and just want to learn but until then im saving my money.
Community college for 2 years then a Guaranteed admittance to a 4 year school in the same state, (Most if not all community colleges have programs like this)
using NVCC (NOVA) as an example, 64 credit hours for you degree for a guaranteed admittance to any 4 year school in virginia.
in state thats about 6400-7000 dollars for your first two years (its about 100 dollars a credit hour at NVCC), Books cost a F**** load so just down load them off piratebay..
now you just have your remaining 2 years at said 4 years school which will probably cost you around 40-50k?
so about 46,400-57,000 for a 4 year degree
Now you add in things such as Financial or scholarships you can get that cost even lower
Now that for actually going to classes and meeting with professors in person
A cheaper method is to get a 4 year degree online with University of Pheonix or any of the other programs.
Just Remeber to get a Degree in a Field that F***ING matters and you should do all right.
A job that does not require a degree and that pays very well
-Truck driver/Platform worker/ in Oil shale areas, (you can make 80k-100k your first year depending on how long you work, 100k+ the next year) (be prepared to work 80+ hours a week)
- A fast wood worker, working 60 hours a week in oil shale areas will make about 50-60k a year
There is a ton of value in trades and vocations which are frowned upon, for whatever reason, in the United States. All the countries that the US is constantly compared to in these academic ratings recognize that value and ensure that their students take the right path.
Maybe it is frowned upon because of the lye being told? I mean college is needed for things like engineering, physics and art aswell believe it or not(If you wat to study art, become a cartoonist, they make bank) I personally believe you can make money off your passion no matter what, aslong as you are flexible in what you want, I have seen to many people who think that because they are physic majors they can become the next Carl Sagan. You also need passion, I love sociology, I hang off every word my teacher says and I have a talent for remembering it. Hell, one of the things I learned was how to properly conduct surveys, interviews and research. According to my friend gathering data like that is a god skill set.
Maybe this stems from the "Every kid is special" kind of schooling.
Nope, college isn't for everyone. One, a lot of people just don't have the academic chops to slog through it with better than C's. Two, so many people have at least a bachelor's degree now that McDonalds has considered requiring a BS to be a cashier and several years ago a saw a job listing that required a BS for a janitorial job. Three, blue-collar trades pay fairly well if the guy is good at the job. The US has a problem with looking down on trades as less worthy; our academics tend to be progressives that think they know all the answers to life and should be in charge of telling folks how to live.
We're on the road to having a shortage of electricians, plumbers, and other valuable trade skills. The ones that we'll have can charge what they want, if not already.
Maybe this stems from the "Every kid is special" kind of schooling.
No I think its from the "if you get a 4 year degree a lot of doors will open for you"
Now whats missing is the following
A.) Moving through said door is your job and no one elses
B) Get a degree that matters
C) A Masters degree opens up more doors - See A).
D) Get a degree that matters
E) GET A DEGREE THAT MATTERS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE MAKING MONEY AFTER COLLEGE WITH A GOD DAM BACHELOR'S OF FINE ARTS DEGREE IN MUSICAL THEATRE
kronk wrote: We're on the road to having a shortage of electricians, plumpers, and other valuable trade skills. The ones that we'll have can charge what they want, if not already.
If you're smart with the above trade skills you can make a good ammount of money.
kronk wrote: We're on the road to having a shortage of electricians, plumpers, and other valuable trade skills. The ones that we'll have can charge what they want, if not already.
kronk wrote: We're on the road to having a shortage of electricians, plumbers, and other valuable trade skills. The ones that we'll have can charge what they want, if not already.
Im likely to kill myself as an electrician, I eletrocuted myself making toast. But my friend did recommend becoming a systems engineer and working on machinery making 70k a year.
Anything I have to contribute to this is a foot note to what everyone else has said.
College/University is not for "everyone".
I don't want to discourage anyone from going, I wouldn't want to screw over someone's future and potentially society from someone who could make great contributions.
Ultimately it should be up to you. I believe high schools should better prep students for other things other going to college.
Couple of my friends decided to take up a trade after high school and make better money than my friends who have Master degrees. Another friend of my dropped out of a 4 year uni, went to a 2 year school for a medical profession and makes more money than being a teacher.
If it's financial security you are looking for, there are other ways than becoming a indentured servant to student loans.
I had an absolute blast at college, but my degree (which I lost) is next to worthless to me. Now, the promotion I got at work is largely based on having it, but even without a paper saying I was smart, my boss would have no issue realizing I was mentally ahead of many of my coworkers. So I can say the paper got me ahead faster than I would have if I didn't have it. But the final outcome would have been the same. Then again, I'm not in a field you can plan for-it's kind of being in the right place at the right time. My degree is in English Education, my job is as vehicular overseer at a mobile dental company. Yeah...plan for a single job in the most obscure job setup ever. Not gonna happen.
As most in this thread have said, a degree is not required to be successful. Hell, even a diploma isn't needed, but many people often overlook the 2-3 year diplomas you can get for applied professions, like nursing. The amount of money you can make as an electrician or plumber is nothing to smirk at, and the bonus is that the training actually pays you, instead of the other way around.
Now, I say this as someone with a degree, but my degree has zero relevance on my applied trade. I had to get one because the government needed me to have one and paid for it in order to have my job. Sometimes I wonder why, but the value of a degree, regardless of the specialization, shouldn't be understated either.
In short, its not for everyone. I couldn't be an engineer if I wanted to. A buddy mine spent three years becoming a welder with a 3 year Technician certificate. Instead, he tattoos people and makes twice what I do. Go figure.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im close to a bachelors and still not a single piece of debt to speak of.......Whenever I tell anyone that they get mad.
I'd stop telling people that and focus on your grades. Chicks don't show their boobs to braggarts. They like the shy quiet guy that follows them around campus and stares at them with binoculars and calls 20 times a day and hangs up.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im close to a bachelors and still not a single piece of debt to speak of.......Whenever I tell anyone that they get mad.
I'd stop telling people that and focus on your grades. Chicks don't show their boobs to braggarts. They like the shy quiet guy that follows them around campus and stares at them with binoculars and calls 20 times a day and hangs up.
Trust me.
It's bound to work, eventually.
I can confirm this.
Its how I met my wife.
Well, she doesn't know we're married yet, but you get the idea.
I just remembered something one of my co-workers is getting a culinary degree, when asked what she was going to do with that, she answered that the military needed her to have a degree for something, just a degree nothing special. just a degree. So she decided culinary was easiest.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im close to a bachelors and still not a single piece of debt to speak of.......Whenever I tell anyone that they get mad.
I'd stop telling people that and focus on your grades. Chicks don't show their boobs to braggarts. They like the shy quiet guy that follows them around campus and stares at them with binoculars and calls 20 times a day and hangs up.
Trust me.
It's bound to work, eventually.
I dont need to focus on grade, I poop out As and Bs while sleeping in class. And I tried that once.......I now need to cordinate my classes with a lawyer
hotsauceman1 wrote: I just remembered something one of my co-workers is getting a culinary degree, when asked what she was going to do with that, she answered that the military needed her to have a degree for something, just a degree nothing special. just a degree. So she decided culinary was easiest.
Hahaha, welcome to my life!
I have a degree in Military and Strategic Studies, which is a fancy way of saying I took the easiest Politics, Psych, and History classes available, drank for four years, and walked out with a degree I'll never truly apply.
Swastakowey wrote: I am 19 years old. I tried telling all my friends they need a passion for what they are going to study etc. I warned them repeatedly about college. Its all good to go but only worth it if you have talent or money or both, but a passion for it is really important. During school and college (here college is different, university is our version of your college) we where told repeatedly to go to university. But the universities are cramped with kids most of whom are badly in debt and didnt know what they wanted todo in the first place.
Now all my friends are poor living at home with parents doing nothing, while i (who started work the hour i left college) am in my own home getting ready for a family.
University/college is a gross exploitation and i hate it. Kids dont know what they wanna do and are sent aimlessly at uni to spend so much money only to end up with a subpar job. I managed to save one of my college friends and now he earns double what i do!
Unless you got passion and talent its not worth going. I might go when im much older and just want to learn but until then im saving my money.
Not Worth it in general.
Very little funnier than a 19-year old referring to college aged people as kids.
Additionally, I personally think you're insane for wanting to start a family at 19. Enjoy your life some first.
I'd say you're completely wrong about need a passion initially. I'd also say you're very wrong about it not being worth it in general. There is lots of value in going to college outside of pure academics. There are also plenty of people that find that passion while they're at school in an unexpected place.
So basically, I think all the reasons you gave are misplaced and you seem like the exact type of person that could benefit from some of the non-academic learning and growth that occurs at college.
I got a degree because the military said I needed one to be an officer... so I figured I might as well do something worthwhile and study engineering... Well, the military thing blew up in my face, but I still have the degree
I don't think the problem is that we are telling people you must get that piece of paper to succeed, I see the problem is we are telling people that getting that piece of paper is the only way to succeed. My problem was that during high school I had it drilled into me that I only had 2 options, goto UNI or get an apprenticeship and do a trade. After a few years I found that my desired career had so many different paths to get into it and I found the one that best suited me.
Were it not for college, I probably would have dropped out of highschool and enlisted, not because of any reason other than following what seems to be my calling (I've always had good grades and I don't aspire to earn more than I need).
College is definitely doing me a service that I didn't expect, despite costing me $25000 a year (I have faith that I can pay off those loans in due time after graduation). It's plain to see that college isn't for everyone. there are a lot of people here, paying more than I am, scrapping the bottom of the tank, with no career goals or aspirations. College is seen as just another stepping stone, after which many students are left asking, "what now?"
Developed countries around the world hatched an idea a couple of decades ago. They realised that with automation taking a lot of jobs away from manufacturing, and the rest moving to countries with lower wages, they needed to build an economy that could sustain high wages. Looking around, they noticed that university trained professionals like lawyers and doctors earned lots of money, and so they decided the answer was to make lots more people go to college.
The problem, of course, is that when you have the top 5% of people go to college, then you double admissions... well the people ranked in the 6-10% group aren't as gifted by definition. When you keep expanding the admissions to get down to the people ranked 25-30%... then you're looking at investing $100,000 or more in training people who aren't your best and brightest. And ultimately you only need so many people in each sector of your economy, add more trained people and you don't necessarily mean there will be useful sectors opening up for them to work in. This means you either gets lots of people with a degree and no use for it (how many liberal arts people end up using not one part of their degree in the job?) or worse, you get a sector bloat as it expands with loads of new skilled professionals without doing anything more useful than it used to (finance in the US has bloated from 3% of the economy to 8% in a generation, and is anyone getting double as much useful banking today than they did 25 years ago?)
So there's a growing amount of talk that the next sensible step forward might be to stop growing our universities, and pull back enrolments... but of course this gets shouted down with claims about becoming stupid, and how education is the future blah blah. But that kind of thing can only last so long, before people start to realise that the vast money pumped in to our universities could instead be put to expanding new tech industries that might actually produce a real, sustainable economic future at high wages.
I have been shot down by more women in college than I could count. Luckily less laughed at me than were polite. I do take satisfaction in this.
I've dated my girlfriend for over 3 years before we had sex, and in that time frame had quite a few prostitutes who offered without charge. (un)fortunately They all looked like rotting roast beef.
Basically my sex life is the equivalence of the Cleveland Browns.
You know what the sad part is? in high school my friends and I use to talk about how much sex we were going to have when we went to college.
Did not happen. It did not Fahkin happen.
College sucks, puberty sucks. Life sucks.
My advice? take up a contact sport so the pain can be redirected.
If I could do things over again, I would try to make a living as a plumber, carpenter, or electrician. I'd probably be making substantially more money with infinitely less bureaucracy.
Ouze wrote: If I could do things over again, I would try to make a living as a plumber, carpenter, or electrician. I'd probably be making substantially more money with infinitely less bureaucracy.
Yep. Do whatever is out of fashion at that point in time, because you'll be really nicely placed when it turns around.
When I asked my Dad about what I should do, he told me when he looked at what he could do, he got told there's lots of jobs in geology, so he should study geology. Of course, that's what everyone got told, so he was one of hundreds who studied, and by the time they all graduated they were competing for a handful of jobs in an industry that was by then in a contractionary phase. So after a few pretty crappy paying jobs that kept him miles away from his young family, he went back to uni and when he got told 'don't do economics, the fields got no credibility and no-one is hiring anymore' he went and did that. Was one of a handful of graduates and got snapped up quickly, and got his pick of jobs for the rest of his career.
I was going to do IT until I spoke to the councilor, who said 'IT is the growth industry, we're growing our enrolments by hundreds each year' and so I stayed the hell away from that - and by the time I graduated the IT bubble had popped and graduates were finding it near impossible to get a job.
But I realise now I was a little too narrow in how I thought about it, I only tried to figure out what kind of white collar job was the best pick, and didn't even consider that perhaps some blue collar jobs might be even better. Afterall, they've been even more out of fashion for even longer, and somehow manage to stay out of fashion despite being scarce and therefore paying very nicely.
kronk wrote: We're on the road to having a shortage of electricians, plumbers, and other valuable trade skills. The ones that we'll have can charge what they want, if not already.
Im likely to kill myself as an electrician, I eletrocuted myself making toast. But my friend did recommend becoming a systems engineer and working on machinery making 70k a year.
I would like to point out that, as a construction electrician, you would be exposed to live voltage very infrequently... Damn near never.
We aren't on the road to having a shortage of skilled tradesmen in this country, we have one right now. In fact, it's been a serious problem for the construction industry for 10+ years (at least as long as I've been in, which is going on 13 years).
College is definitely not required to get an honest job and make a respectable living. Typically, apprenticeships cost very little to nothing on the part of the apprentice (my five year apprenticeship was $500, paid in $100 installments over the course of the apprenticeship), you get hands on experience on the job, and best of all, what you learn matters because you use it to make your living with the added benefit that what you learn can never be taken from you. I've been a union steamfitter (industrial/commercial heating & cooling, refrigeration, process piping, etc.) for almost 13 years and I have a great job, I make awesome money, I have good health care, and I have a solid pension. There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of by deciding to make a living with your hands.
kronk wrote: We're on the road to having a shortage of electricians, plumbers, and other valuable trade skills. The ones that we'll have can charge what they want, if not already.
Im likely to kill myself as an electrician, I eletrocuted myself making toast. But my friend did recommend becoming a systems engineer and working on machinery making 70k a year.
I would like to point out that, as a construction electrician, you would be exposed to live voltage very infrequently... Damn near never.
We aren't on the road to having a shortage of skilled tradesmen in this country, we have one right now. In fact, it's been a serious problem for the construction industry for 10+ years (at least as long as I've been in, which is going on 13 years).
College is definitely not required to get an honest job and make a respectable living. Typically, apprenticeships cost very little to nothing on the part of the apprentice (my five year apprenticeship was $500, paid in $100 installments over the course of the apprenticeship), you get hands on experience on the job, and best of all, what you learn matters because you use it to make your living with the added benefit that what you learn can never be taken from you. I've been a union steamfitter (industrial/commercial heating & cooling, refrigeration, process piping, etc.) for almost 13 years and I have a great job, I make awesome money, I have good health care, and I have a solid pension. There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of by deciding to make a living with your hands.
I often times regret not doing that. There's a lot to be said for doing a job that has real, tangible creation as a part of it.
In my field, I would always be hit by a roadblock eventually if I did not attain a degree. I was earning significantly more than the average without one, but my advancement would stop eventually. That was my motivation.
Everyone else in my family is also very well educated (Several MDs and PHDs,no one less than a masters) I didn't want to be the only one without a degree either.
I will echo what people are saying about "Getting one that counts" Engineering fields are always looking for workers.
The military is also a great way to go. If you pick the correct job, you can accumulate experience while working your degree. This can transfer to an outside job with 4+ years experience and a Degree, so you are already looking better than a lot of applicants right out of college. Not to mention zero debt from college.
If you are a Texas Vet, you can pretty much have your school paid for all the way through a Masters if you go to a public university.
cincydooley wrote: I often times regret not doing that. There's a lot to be said for doing a job that has real, tangible creation as a part of it.
Yeah, that's a good point - there's also that 'I created a real, physical thing today.'
I often joke that I collect info and report on that to people who use it to manage staff who in turn manage staff who teach kids who will one day go out and create real, physical things. I'm five steps removed from people who actually make things.
Ninjacommando wrote:
A cheaper method is to get a 4 year degree online with University of Pheonix or any of the other programs.
If your goal is a piece of paper, maybe. If your goal is a piece of paper that means anything to any reasonable employer, stay the hell away from online universities. University of Phoenix, and other for-profit online schools have the worst reputation and the least valuable degrees that you can get.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Im close to a bachelors and still not a single piece of debt to speak of.......Whenever I tell anyone that they get mad.
I'm more mad that you're close to a degree in anything and haven't figured out how to use apostrophes when you type. There's a reason that a college degree isn't worth what it once was, and that's that they don't seem to be teaching the basics anymore. Spelling, punctuation and grammar matter. The fastest way to not get a job is to have a poorly written resume. Hiring managers have hundreds of resumes to go through to fill positions, and anything that lets them weed out undesirable applicants helps them out.
"You don't do things right once in a while; you do them right all the time." - Vince Lombardi. Sure, this is just a forum, but get it right here, and you'll get it right when it matters.
Don't bash History degrees! It's a common misconception (at least here in the UK) that History graduates end up as History teachers and little else, just as many graduates get jobs in the civil service, the media, as researches or do a conversion degree and work in law.
Is it necessary? That entirely depends on what career you want aspire to, what skills you gain from a certain degree and if there are other was of obtaining such skills. There is no simple answer.
Definitely not for everyone, and there's no shame in not having one. I've probably found more shame in my fine arts degree than anyone for not having one at all.
In highschool, I had the talent and encouragement to go towards engineering, but I had absolutely none of the interest.
I wanted to work in a visual field, but something that could be useful and earn some money, so I decided to go for a BFA in New Media.
It was an unfocused education at best, and a glut of lazy students with no direction or desire to improve themselves and a complete inability to take criticism (which was also partly the professors' faults, since they were, by and large, too scared of hurting anyone's feelings) which only went to dilute the experience further.
I know I've got a fair way to go before my skill set becomes employable to the level I want it to be, and worse yet, I've managed to teach myself more in the past 6 months than I've learned at university in 4 years.
I feel I'd be a lot further with not only a much more focused curriculum and professors, but also with a much less diluted base of peers.
Too many people are getting into college and university for things they really shouldn't be in. I shouldn't be spending my last year working on projects with people who can barely function with the most rudimental of roles, they only serve to hold the rest of us back.
I would rather die with no prospects than live a life of debt and disappointing mediocrity. Your entire existence is a pointless as the grass that gets cut every friday, might as well live your life doing whatever the heck you want than feeding into fake obligations society puts on you.
Fafnir wrote: That's all fine and dandy, up until you realize just how much starving sucks.
Thats why you've gotta try to find the middle ground. Did I grow up wanting to spend my life forecasting the weather? Nope, wanted to be a paleoanthropologist.
That's not very realistic though, and I still managed to find a job that I enjoy doing, while being able to provide for a comfortable living.
Fafnir wrote: That's all fine and dandy, up until you realize just how much starving sucks.
Thats why you've gotta try to find the middle ground. Did I grow up wanting to spend my life forecasting the weather? Nope, wanted to be a paleoanthropologist.
That's not very realistic though, and I still managed to find a job that I enjoy doing, while being able to provide for a comfortable living.
This is true. Which is why I completely gave up on engineering near the end of highschool. After a few classes based upon it, I figured I'd have hung myself before I was 40.
There's a lot that can be said for getting a job that affords you the free time to pursue your own interests outside of it, even if the job itself doesn't align with your personal interests, but it can't be something you detest doing. That's a recipe for disaster.
You have to be smart. Look at what college is going to cost you, especially if you cannot afford it without loans. Look at what types of jobs and how many of them are out there and what they pay in the field you want to study.
You mentioned getting an art degree and being a cartoonist because 'they make bank'. I submit SOME cartoonists 'make bank' and not many. And that the art degree as an investment does not have good odds of paying off, especially if all you have is a bachelors and you do not have connections with an animation studio where you are assured a job.
We push college on everyone and then allow them to take on huge debt while pursuing degrees that they enjoy getting but are essentially worthless. Yet there is no 'lie' involved. The info is out there, YOU decide your future.
Loans are the big problem. If they were handled like normal loans where the lender had to assume the risk a lot less of them would be passed out. Who in their right minds would loan someone graduating high school with a low B or high C average 200K so they could pursue a degree in English LIterature? There is so low a chance of that person being able to pay off that debt under most loan conditions that the loan would never be given.
The lie is the one students tell themselves. "Sure I'll be able to get a job with my bachelor degree in photography that will enable me to pay off 150k in debt".
kronk wrote: We're on the road to having a shortage of electricians, plumbers, and other valuable trade skills. The ones that we'll have can charge what they want, if not already.
Agreed. College is not for everyone. HOWEVER, skills are required for everyone who wants to not be working at Tacobell (now with more cat). If you don't go to university you need a good technical degree of journeyman training.
Frazzled fully supports the German system of education.
Piston Honda wrote: Basically my sex life is the equivalence of the Cleveland Browns.
It was great 50 years ago, before it actually mattered?
As to the college is not for everyone. I agree, I think your classmates were pricks to get indignant about it, and I'm sure a few of them are upset that their choice was being questioned.
Also sauceman, you are keeping the poor down by asking those questions, so keep on keepin' on
Madcat87 wrote: I don't think the problem is that we are telling people you must get that piece of paper to succeed, I see the problem is we are telling people that getting that piece of paper is the only way to succeed. My problem was that during high school I had it drilled into me that I only had 2 options, goto UNI or get an apprenticeship and do a trade. After a few years I found that my desired career had so many different paths to get into it and I found the one that best suited me.
Another part of the problem is approaching a college education as just a piece of paper or a check in the box required to get a particular job.
Frazzled fully supports the German system of education.
This.
The US education system needs to be fixed in every which way, college shouldn't be forced on people, especially not on teenagers who really don't know any better, and there should be a "recognized" alternative available to those that choose not to go for higher education (like a system of trade schools/apprenticeships or what have you, a lot of people don't pursue those avenues because they aren't necessarily aware of them). If I was a little more mature when I graduated high school, knowing what I know now... I don't necessarily know that I would have gone to college, aside from the whole military officer angle.
No, college is not for everyone, but the opportunity for a college education should be open for all that want to pursue it.
I have a college education but am in a position (Construction Superintendent), where most do not. My pay started higher then most, but over time it's the knowledge of the job that matters, not what you learned in school.
The most important thing that someone can learn in college is HOW to learn. I studied Structural Engineering in college, I haven't designed anything since I left.
Ouze wrote: If I could do things over again, I would try to make a living as a plumber, carpenter, or electrician. I'd probably be making substantially more money with infinitely less bureaucracy.
But I realise now I was a little too narrow in how I thought about it, I only tried to figure out what kind of white collar job was the best pick, and didn't even consider that perhaps some blue collar jobs might be even better. Afterall, they've been even more out of fashion for even longer, and somehow manage to stay out of fashion despite being scarce and therefore paying very nicely.
I remmeber just befor ethe recession seeing lot's of newspaper articles and discussions about Plumbers, Electricians, and and Construction workers were needed as the demand was outstripping the prospective graduation rates. Then, the bubble burst and the great recession struck. Suddenly, all those same people who couldn't keep up with deman were out of work and getting foreclosed on themselves.
Face it, in the future their is no stability. Be ready to switch skills sets and get training multiple times as the average person changes fields 7 times in the their life.
It's not "needed" strictly speaking to find way of supporting yourself, though it can certainly help. However, so can other things and there are lot of variables and context to consider for each individual. I'll say that college has a lot of value in providing a reliable and straightforward way of increasing exposure to a broader set of ideas. The general education requirements of getting my college degree exposed me to a lot of ideas I probably wouldn't have otherwise sought out on my own. Some of those ideas were very important in prompting me to do deeper investigations on my own,with some becoming fairly important in shaping my current world view.
I think on the whole we're all better off the more of us have more reach into broader topics, and a college educations are still the best proven ways of facilitating in that. In general I'd always recommend someone peruse college than not, provided the economics of it don't make it entirely unfeasible for them.
Matt1785 wrote: No, college is not for everyone, but the opportunity for a college education should be open for all that want to pursue it.
I have a college education but am in a position (Construction Superintendent), where most do not. My pay started higher then most, but over time it's the knowledge of the job that matters, not what you learned in school.
The most important thing that someone can learn in college is HOW to learn. I studied Structural Engineering in college, I haven't designed anything since I left.
Pretty much this. I studied Industrial Engineering, I'm working as a Construction Estimator/APM, the money is more than what most in this position get starting out, but its almost 20k less than what I should be making if I were in a position where my degree was relevant (meaning that to me, right now, my diploma wasn't really important).
For me, college was not the direction my life was going to take. If I had gone to college I would have just majored in Art and almost been in the same spot I am in now, just more in debt than I'm in now.
I got a job at a library without having to be a librarian and am often referred to for my knowledge of world music, dance, and costuming.
I am known in specific communities around the world, been featured in art galleries, and have been interviewed for magazines.
I am knowledgable in several forms of Middle Eastern, and Romani, dances that there is no formal education for except to learn it from the source.
I have performed in different countries.
I share all of this with my wife who teaches dance and puts on two successful shows a year that will draw people in from other countries.
I was able to achieve this without a degree.
Yes life is hard, especially as an artist, but you know what, same is said even when you have a degree.
djones520 wrote: I know one guy with a History degree. He's a seasonal worker at Walmart.
I have a History Degree and I am a White Collar professional cube farmer in the corporate world.
Back when I was looking for a career pre-recession no one asked me what my degree was in or my GPA, but they all wanted to know that I had a degree. Without my degree I wouldn't have been able to climb the corporate ladder at all. Post-2007 I wouldn't even have been looked at as an entry level worker without one.
That said, it took me about 7 years until the degree really paid off. Yeah, it got my foot in the corporate door, but many of my peers doing low-level service work (such as Pizza Delivery Driver) were making as much or more than me. Than, after I climbed a few rungs up the ladder the degree vs. Non-degree differential really started to show.
The only non-degree exception was the guy who became a technical wizard at telephony without a degree. He still crushes me in the $$$ department.
Hordini wrote: Another part of the problem is approaching a college education as just a piece of paper or a check in the box required to get a particular job.
djones520 wrote: I know one guy with a History degree. He's a seasonal worker at Walmart.
I have a History Degree and I am a White Collar professional cube farmer in the corporate world.
Back when I was looking for a career pre-recession no one asked me what my degree was in or my GPA, but they all wanted to know that I had a degree. Without my degree I wouldn't hav ebeen able to climb the corporate ladder at all. Post-2007 I wouldn't even hav ebeen looked at as an entry level worker without one.
That said, it took me about 7 years until the degree really paid off. Yeah, it got my foot int he corporate door, but many of my peers doing low-level service work (such as Pizza Delivery Driver) were making as much or emore than me. Than, after I climbed a few rungs up the ladder the degree vs. Non-degree differential really started to show.
The only non-degree exception was the guy who became a technical wizard at telephony without a degree. He still crushes me in the $$$ department.
Also an outstanding point. Certain avenues will be shut off to you without a degree. Obviously that doesn't mean that you can't break through into the high income brackets without one, but it does make it harder.
My wife and I have had this conversation about our kids, and we're fine if they don't want to attend regular college, so long as they get some kind of training, and work to be successful. Which is defined as being happy with their life with at least a moderate level of income.
To be clear though, saying "you don't need a degree" is just as arbitrary and inaccurate as saying "you need a degree." It's really a person-by-person thing, and not a blanket statement either way.
Instead of sending everyone to college, regardless of ability or intent, we should be focusing more people on trades. You know what jobs can't be off-shored? Plumbers can't be offshored. No kid in China or India is going to unclog your drain for you over the phone. Mechanics - face it, cars aren't going anywhere, and you're not sending your car to Taiwan to be fixed. There are a lot of trades that need workers, and it's a good honest middle class living.
This. I grew up working on cars, and went to a technical college...and I landed a good job with great benefits with only two years worth of schooling, and a degree to show for it. Unfortunately, if you don't have a basic understanding of the field you're going into, you'll have trouble.
Matt1785 wrote: No, college is not for everyone, but the opportunity for a college education should be open for all that want to pursue it.
I have a college education but am in a position (Construction Superintendent), where most do not. My pay started higher then most, but over time it's the knowledge of the job that matters, not what you learned in school.
The most important thing that someone can learn in college is HOW to learn. I studied Structural Engineering in college, I haven't designed anything since I left.
Pretty much this. I studied Industrial Engineering, I'm working as a Construction Estimator/APM, the money is more than what most in this position get starting out, but its almost 20k less than what I should be making if I were in a position where my degree was relevant (meaning that to me, right now, my diploma wasn't really important).
This! I can't stress this enough.
In my line of work (Healthcare IT)... there's no school or technical training as it's still a "niched" industry. I want to college to get the basics of Computer Science and Management of Information Systems.
Those gave me a smaill foundation to work from when I started my career.
I had to teach myself to research and lean the skillsets I need to do my job.
I did NOT get any of these skills while I was in college:
Report Writing (Crystal Reports / Business Objects)
Java
Advanced SQL query
Oracle, Progress, MS SQL, Sybase databases
VMware
Advanced Networking concepts
PERL
..etc...
Then... I needed to understand the workflow, policy and how the various Hospital Depts operate (non-IT stuff).
Basically, I ended up being someone who knows a lot of different things that can be dangerous. That's valuable because I can support my users speaking their languauge, and then turn around and engage the technical resources to get gak done.
The biggest attribute that allowed me to develop this way... is the RESEARCH (find a guru, GOOGLE, go to workshop seminars, etc...) and having some "sand box" where I trial things out.
The US education system needs to be fixed in every which way, college shouldn't be forced on people, especially not on teenagers who really don't know any better, and there should be a "recognized" alternative available to those that choose not to go for higher education (like a system of trade schools/apprenticeships or what have you, a lot of people don't pursue those avenues because they aren't necessarily aware of them). If I was a little more mature when I graduated high school, knowing what I know now... I don't necessarily know that I would have gone to college, aside from the whole military officer angle.
I don't mean to derail the thread with this
are you an ROTC alumnus? what branch?
I see you're also from NJ
Many people go into the trades straight out of highschool. After a few years of apprenticeship they will make much more money than a university grad (so long as they have a good work ethic).
I've seen many of my straight-A peers suddenly thrust from their cozy libraries and study groups into real jobs - many of these people are quite useless as employees since there is no time to research what they need to do when a client is yelling in your face.
One of my professors used offer his top student in each class a really good summer internship within some well known companies. He told me that he had stopped after a few years since the "top" students would often lack communication skills and become easily overwhelmed in stressful/hectic situations.
My point is - that some people can succeed without college as it all comes down to what skills you possess. University doesn't teach basic skills that employers look for which is why you find graduates losing jobs to people with proven skills/experience from minimum wage jobs.
Funny, the colleges I spied to said they are wary of straight A students. Saying that those types often lack social skills because the skills required for those grades are often anti social. Like my sis. She quit mcdonalds because it was too much work.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Funny, the colleges I spied to said they are wary of straight A students. Saying that those types often lack social skills because the skills required for those grades are often anti social. Like my sis. She quit mcdonalds because it was too much work.
Well with the stories I've heard about your sister from you via Dakka, I am not surprised by this.
I'm 28. I graduated from High School with a D average, worked a lot of minimum wage jobs, and 10 years later am making $24/hr without any further school. My job requires skill instead of some piece of paper that says I sat in lectures and theoretically learned things for lots of money.
My sister (26) spend 150k on a 4 year private college degree in Graphic Design, and right out of school she got a job making $12/hr with all of that debt to pay back. 6 years later she's teaching English in Japan for better money(although her cost of living offsets most of that increase), but it's a job that required ANY 4 year degree, so she could have done it just as much with a community college degree that didn't cost my dad a second mortgage.
Everyone told us that we NEEDED college to get anywhere. Meanwhile at my job I've turned down 4 people with B.A.'s because they lacked any actual work experience. Plenty of people in my office who make 50-100k/yr with nothing beyond a high school education and no student loans to pay off.
I'm 28. I graduated from High School with a D average, worked a lot of minimum wage jobs, and 10 years later am making $24/hr without any further school. My job requires skill instead of some piece of paper that says I sat in lectures and theoretically learned things for lots of money.
My sister (26) spend 150k on a 4 year private college degree in Graphic Design, and right out of school she got a job making $12/hr with all of that debt to pay back. 6 years later she's teaching English in Japan for better money(although her cost of living offsets most of that increase), but it's a job that required ANY 4 year degree, so she could have done it just as much with a community college degree that didn't cost my dad a second mortgage.
Everyone told us that we NEEDED college to get anywhere. Meanwhile at my job I've turned down 4 people with B.A.'s because they lacked any actual work experience. Plenty of people in my office who make 50-100k/yr with nothing beyond a high school education and no student loans to pay off.
That's awesome. And for every story like yours, there are just as many people will college degrees that are 28 and 10 years after high school are making $50+/hour.
I agree that not everyone needs to go to college and that trades are plenty viable, but don't get it twisted: your earning potential is significantly higher with a college education that without, unless you're LeBron James.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Funny, the colleges I spied to said they are wary of straight A students. Saying that those types often lack social skills because the skills required for those grades are often anti social. Like my sis. She quit mcdonalds because it was too much work.
Well with the stories I've heard about your sister from you via Dakka, I am not surprised by this.
I'm 28. I graduated from High School with a D average, worked a lot of minimum wage jobs, and 10 years later am making $24/hr without any further school. My job requires skill instead of some piece of paper that says I sat in lectures and theoretically learned things for lots of money.
My sister (26) spend 150k on a 4 year private college degree in Graphic Design, and right out of school she got a job making $12/hr with all of that debt to pay back. 6 years later she's teaching English in Japan for better money(although her cost of living offsets most of that increase), but it's a job that required ANY 4 year degree, so she could have done it just as much with a community college degree that didn't cost my dad a second mortgage.
Everyone told us that we NEEDED college to get anywhere. Meanwhile at my job I've turned down 4 people with B.A.'s because they lacked any actual work experience. Plenty of people in my office who make 50-100k/yr with nothing beyond a high school education and no student loans to pay off.
That's awesome. And for every story like yours, there are just as many people will college degrees that are 28 and 10 years after high school are making $50+/hour.
I agree that not everyone needs to go to college and that trades are plenty viable, but don't get it twisted: your earning potential is significantly higher with a college education that without, unless you're LeBron James.
College degrees are only really needed for specialized fields though. Anything heavy in math, sure. You know how many people have careers as salespeople who rake in 50k+ and don't know algebra I? A boat load. There are PLENTY of high paying jobs where education is of minimal consideration, and practical skills are king.
An uneducated critical thinker is far more valuable than an educated idiot who can only repeat what they've been told instead of solving problems using their own cognitive reasoning skills.
I got my job because I'm lazy. I was given a data entry spot at $10/hr and I found EVERY way to do as little work as possible while still getting the job done right. I figured I'd pass my methods on to my boss(who ignored them) and then up to his boss. He saw that my efficiency skyrocketed without cutting any corners. A week later I was promoted to head up my team, and a year later I've since tripled the size of that team. All because I didn't want to work very hard(which kinda bit me in the ass, as I work harder now, but the increase in pay makes it well worth while).
Always find a lazy critical thinker to do a difficult task that needs to be done repeatedly, and they will find the easiest way to do it.
An uneducated critical thinker is far more valuable than an educated idiot who can only repeat what they've been told instead of solving problems using their own cognitive reasoning skills.
One of the most important, and most valuable parts of a college education is learning how to think critically or improving on already existing critical thinking skills. If you think it's just about rote memorization of a bunch of facts, you're doing it wrong, you're being cheated, or both.
I can think of at least 5 classes I took in high school where that time would have been infinitely better spent teaching critical thinking.
Math beyond Algebra 1 and Geometry is specialized to the point where 90% of us never use it (engineers, chemists, any manner of scientist really could use it. Sales people don't need to know calculus.
Literature should be an elective for those inclined to take it, instead of wasting 2 years of my life over crap I really have no interest in. Art as well for that matter. Electives should be the classes kids WANT to take because they appeal to them, not the filler classes because mandatory class X wasn't available that period.
High school doesn't teach you how to survive for gak if you don't go to college. They aren't teaching how to manage a budget, economics somehow is an elective when it(like US government) should be mandatory as it is USEFUL info that people can use regardless of what they end up doing with their life.
College should really be reserved for those fields where specialized expertise is needed. Not for people trying to get a job teaching English in Japan. That is asinine. If you've ever been online looking for work, you'd be surprised at how many stupid low end jobs require 4 year degrees but they pay barely 25% over unskilled labor.
Further, look at how many wildly successful people went to college and dropped out when they realized they didn't actually need it to get by. They may be the exception to the rule, but plenty of them are in highly specialized fields where their own effort got them spades more than a degree would have.
If you WANT to go to college, by all means go. But my generation was lied to hand over fist about us not being able to get decent jobs unless we went and took on some massive financial burden that would haunt us for another 10 years after we were out.
chaos0xomega wrote: I got a degree because the military said I needed one to be an officer... so I figured I might as well do something worthwhile and study engineering... Well, the military thing blew up in my face, but I still have the degree
You had plenty of Privates at your disposal for clearing that minefield.. its your own damn fault the military blew up in your face
But yeah... Guys like Mike Rowe have now been going to Congress, and starting "charity" groups to combat this ridiculous notion that many American schools teach kids that the "only" way to be successful is to graduate college. Hell, guys like John Kerry are still mistakenly "suggesting" that college is the only route to success (with his faux pas, of saying either go to college and be successful, or join the military)
If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
StyleXHobby wrote: If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
Easy E wrote: I remmeber just befor ethe recession seeing lot's of newspaper articles and discussions about Plumbers, Electricians, and and Construction workers were needed as the demand was outstripping the prospective graduation rates. Then, the bubble burst and the great recession struck. Suddenly, all those same people who couldn't keep up with deman were out of work and getting foreclosed on themselves.
Face it, in the future their is no stability. Be ready to switch skills sets and get training multiple times as the average person changes fields 7 times in the their life.
That's true to an extent, but there's still good picks that are likely to work out and plenty of other picks that are much less likely to work out.
And within those picks, there's also the issue of transferable skills, and skills that are useful outside of the profession.
StyleXHobby wrote: If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
It is not my love of homeowners insurance that keeps me going to work every day, it's the paycheck and the fact that I don't HATE it.
Dreams are nice, but settling on a job you don't hate is far better than a lot of people get off with.
And plenty of people work hard only to end up penniless and destitute(see Nikola Tesla).
Cunning will make you far more money than hard work. Hard work is generally what keeps the money coming in long term.
Or you can be like me and work your job while floating the $2 a week to test statistics at the lottery. Bla bla bla the odds are low. You know what odds of winning are worse? Not playing at all.
The worst that happens is you toss a dollar down the drain. The alternate option is immensely better if luck is on your side that day. Low risk, high yield.
Yes and no. On the one hand, I agree because a lot of people choose their degree with little understanding about what having little money really means. Kids leaving highschool think that in choosing the degree they love they're just giving up on flash cars and big houses, but what they don't get is that having money means removing a major stress from your life. A decent income means you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay next month's rent, and it means if your dog gets sick then you can get treatment without having to worry about where the money is coming from.
On the other hand, I know more than a few people who went in to degrees because they wanted to set themselves up financially, but floundered because they didn't care at all for the work. One fellow I know was extremely gifted and did extremely well in their commerce degree, but floundered when he went out to work, spent about five years in the same entry level job before packing it in and becoming a blues guitarist. He now does quite well for himself, not great but well enough. He also brings out other bands, using his financial training to good effect, so I guess he does get some value out of his degree.
Point being that if something really does bore you to tears then there's a chance that you'll flounder and go nowhere.
But then there's also the issue that while something might sound utterly boring on the surface, when you actually work in it it can be very rewarding. I wasn't too interested in studying accounting standards or any of that nonsense, but once I got out in the real world I found hunting through our financial records to build patterns and model processes quite a lot of fun. Whereas I know a few people who loved law and learning about all these important legal principles, only to find the job consisted largely of following rote processes over and over again, with little ability to use their creativity.
So I guess what I'm saying is that there's no one great answer for what you ought to do. Which I guess is why so many people get it wrong the first time around. Maybe the best advice would be that it's okay to get it wrong once, twice or five times, as long as you don't get stuck and unable to change later on.
To be honest I think part of it boils down to what my proff once said "There is no Plan in life, Try your best to schedule it but dont think it will all pan out"
I went straight into the military out of high school and then the federal government. I'm going to turn 30 in six or so months and I will have 11 years in with the Fed; I chose thusly because as much as I am an intelligent, competent and hard working SOB - and I would like to be judged on such - I saw my dad get completely screwed even with similar traits as the company he worked for got bought out like five times and his seniority and prospects collapsed.
Working for the Fed I can change jobs, do whatever and keep my years and benefits. The downside is working with habitual government employees, many of whom do not share my wit and drive.
At some point I am going to need a degree, any degree to keep advancing. It's kind of lame as I don't enjoy structured education; on the other hand I have a GI Bill that I haven't used at all and expires in 2016 or so. I hate the fact that no matter how skilled and competent I am, at some point I will need a degree - no matter how irrelevant to my job - to be promoted.
I have a degree in Military and Strategic Studies, which is a fancy way of saying I took the easiest Politics, Psych, and History classes available, drank for four years, and walked out with a degree I'll never truly apply.
StyleXHobby wrote: If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
And plenty of people work hard only to end up penniless and destitute(see Nikola Tesla).
For what it's worth, part of that came from Tesla wanting to work for the common good, and part of it came from the fact that Thomas Edison was a massive dick.
StyleXHobby wrote: If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
Said naive people everywhere.
I agree. My favorite naive person is Alan Watts.
That's lovely. Money, however does matter. So does innate intelligence and ability.
I agree heavily with the sentiment that the country can't function with nothing but doctors, lawyers and artists running about.
I'd argue the vast majority of good jobs out there don't require schooling beyond 10th grade, and rely far more on specialized experience in the field. Dirty Jobs is a great example of that.
Do those jobs all pay 100k/year? no. But They pay well enough to support a family provided you don't live in California or New York.
Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
The ONLY adults that should be working low end retail and service jobs are those who are supervisors and perhaps the odd person trying to get a second start at things. Instead, I've seen the same grown ass dude working at a local Wendy's for the last 10 years, still not in charge of anything other than taking orders.
It's basic economics: if an unskilled teenager can do your job just as well as you with all of 2 weeks training, you don't deserve more money, you need a new job.
Now sure, some of the burden ends up on the company. A local burger joint called In 'N Out has a starting pay of $10.25/hr for the guy who cuts onions and takes out the trash. The next step up is cashier who makes 12/hr, fry cooks make 14/hr, and line cooks make something around 15-16/hr. Store managers there make about 90k/yr. And this is a place where a cheeseburger, fries and soda run $5. And they manage to never freeze any of their food(every store is within a 1 day drive of a distribution hub so that they don't need to freeze anything). That company rakes in the money(a mostly West coast based company with 290 stores doing about $465mil in revenue anually). So sure, McDonalds and Burger King could rework their whole setup to pay more for actual quality staff, but then they wouldn't have $1 menus.
There are plenty of jobs out there that pay well for entry level work, the difference is that they won't hire any random fool. If you want a good job, the competition will be higher, that is just the nature of our world. You can't demand a raise when Larry is more than willing to take your job for what you already make unless you have some major skill that your employer desires enough to facilitate a raise.
My employees make $10/hr starting. It's data entry at home doing insurance settlement evaluation. If they are good at at over time, the pay caps out at $12/hr. Not a ton of money, but it's also only part time and it's from home so you can't expect a huge paycheck for it. The next step up however is a major upgrade. Our sales people make 12/hr base or 25% of their monthly profit. Most reps earn the company 15-20k per month, which means they take home $23-31/hr before taxes. Usually takes reps 2 months to learn the process and they are on their way. Last month we had a rep earn 29k in his second month, netting him $45/hr for that month. And this job doesn't require a degree beyond high school(although it may help get an interview). Plenty of reps were hired on referral from other employees and many of them did not go to college. And nothing in college would have taught them the skills to do this job at all. It's all basic math and salesmanship.
I wish I could say my time at Uni was not wasted, but that would be a lie. I wish I had just worked instead, so I had a secure income and wasn't the detriment I now am to the potential for property purchases (due to debt)
If you don't see something that LEAPS out at you then IMO it will be more productive to work into the field you want to be in, rather than study your way into it.
Aerethan wrote: It's basic economics: if an unskilled teenager can do your job just as well as you with all of 2 weeks training, you don't deserve more money, you need a new job.
It's a really important point that economics would never use the term 'deserve'. It may seem like I'm being pedantic but it's probably the biggest mistake most people make in economics. 'Deserve' belongs in economics as much as it belongs in physics.
There are plenty of jobs out there that pay well for entry level work, the difference is that they won't hire any random fool. If you want a good job, the competition will be higher, that is just the nature of our world. You can't demand a raise when Larry is more than willing to take your job for what you already make unless you have some major skill that your employer desires enough to facilitate a raise.
Not really. Because you can, for instance, engage in collective action. Just for some reason people freak out when workers do this and call it collective action, but don't freak out when companies do this and call it horizontal integration.
Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
I highly doubt they would take such a job "gladly".
Also, you imply that "dirty jobs" shouldn't be stigmatized, but everything you have posted has attached a stigma to people who work those jobs.
My employees make $10/hr starting. It's data entry at home doing insurance settlement evaluation. If they are good at at over time, the pay caps out at $12/hr. Not a ton of money, but it's also only part time and it's from home so you can't expect a huge paycheck for it. The next step up however is a major upgrade. Our sales people make 12/hr base or 25% of their monthly profit. Most reps earn the company 15-20k per month, which means they take home $23-31/hr before taxes. Usually takes reps 2 months to learn the process and they are on their way. Last month we had a rep earn 29k in his second month, netting him $45/hr for that month. And this job doesn't require a degree beyond high school(although it may help get an interview). Plenty of reps were hired on referral from other employees and many of them did not go to college. And nothing in college would have taught them the skills to do this job at all. It's all basic math and salesmanship.
It is a fast food chain, but it's more local than the likes of McDonalds and Burger King, fethers won't even bring their tasty burgers to the midwest
That was the one of the best things about my trip to Vegas (I was 19, couldn't drink, couldn't gamble, couldn't really do much), was that I finally got to go to In-N-Out burger.
hotsauceman1 wrote: In n' out is highly over rated, their fries are terrible and they refuse to put bacon on things
I'm okay with them not putting bacon on things, most fast food places don't do bacon right, so you get this limp-dick thing that looks like bacon and tastes like cardboard, or you get a charred strip of meat.
Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
The ONLY adults that should be working low end retail and service jobs are those who are supervisors and perhaps the odd person trying to get a second start at things. Instead, I've seen the same grown ass dude working at a local Wendy's for the last 10 years, still not in charge of anything other than taking orders.
It's basic economics: if an unskilled teenager can do your job just as well as you with all of 2 weeks training, you don't deserve more money, you need a new job.
Here's some more "basic" economics for you;
Inflation exists. Making $15/hour today is not the same as making $15/hour 20 years ago.
McDonalds just gave their CEO a $5 million/year raise.
It costs a certain amount to survive in today's world. If you're so against full-time jobs being required to pay that amount, where do you think the shortfall should come from?
Government assistance? So you think that the government should be subsidizing the bottom line of companies that continue to record record profits?
Or perhaps you don't think food stamps should exist either? Maybe the people who flip your burgers for you deserve to starve.
A $15/hour minimum wage wouldn't cripple any business. Costco pays their employees more than that and are doing pretty well - their customer satisfaction is far higher than that of Walmart. Maybe they don't have gaudy profit margins, but I don't think that giving more cash to the Waltons and having my taxes pay their workers is a good system.
Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
I highly doubt they would take such a job "gladly".
Also, you imply that "dirty jobs" shouldn't be stigmatized, but everything you have posted has attached a stigma to people who work those jobs.
I know growing up, and having applied to multiple fast food places back in my home town, even in school, I was unable to get a job for many reasons. I personally view jobs like McDs, Taco Bell, etc. to be "starter jobs", and theyre minimum wage for a very good reason.
I also don't think that "dirty jobs" as such are stigmatized. The jobs that have been have done so because of the typical people who work them. In many ways, working Fast Food at 30 almost should come with a stigma (at least, outside of military towns). Same thing if you are working as a gas station attendant, in a movie theater, etc. but are not management, quite often times, something has gone wrong.
StyleXHobby wrote: If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
Said naive people everywhere.
I agree. My favorite naive person is Alan Watts.
That's lovely. Money, however does matter. So does innate intelligence and ability.
But keep on living in fantasyville.
His point is somewhat overdone, IMO. However, I do believe that it's likely that you won't be much of a success in a career that you hate. Furthermore, if you love/like a particular career, your chances of success are likely higher than those of the guy who's ambivalent about it or worse.
There are at least two reasons for this. One is that you'll probably apply yourself better in a field you enjoy. Another is that if you bring some energy/interest/enthusiasm to the table, you're much more likely to be kept or promoted over someone who's a miserable wretch or just kinda there.
In my experience, most people dramatically overrate their ability level and success, and dramatically underrate the ease with which they can be replaced in an organization. Personality, enthusiasm, team play, etc. count much more than many people realize, and there are good reasons for this.
My employees make $10/hr starting. It's data entry at home doing insurance settlement evaluation. If they are good at at over time, the pay caps out at $12/hr. Not a ton of money, but it's also only part time and it's from home so you can't expect a huge paycheck for it. The next step up however is a major upgrade. Our sales people make 12/hr base or 25% of their monthly profit. Most reps earn the company 15-20k per month, which means they take home $23-31/hr before taxes. Usually takes reps 2 months to learn the process and they are on their way. Last month we had a rep earn 29k in his second month, netting him $45/hr for that month. And this job doesn't require a degree beyond high school(although it may help get an interview). Plenty of reps were hired on referral from other employees and many of them did not go to college. And nothing in college would have taught them the skills to do this job at all. It's all basic math and salesmanship.
That sounds disturbingly like a Vector pitch.
It also sounds like an object lesson why people should get a college degree or specialized training.
Seriously, history is interesting, and I read wikipedia compulsively, but a history degree is a good way to get a job as a waiter.
Interestingly, as a spoilt expat bratty kid from Dubai, I get the chance to speak to several executives, and what they say is actually quite interesting. There was this one guy who said that he wouldn't look at business/commerce majors (unless it's from a good university) because lots of people have them. For example, apparently in Australia there's 10,000 students studying business at universities across the country. He likes history degrees because the skills learnt in a history degree can be transferred to business. It was because of the analytical skills required or something like that. Same reason why he likes Classics students, but they're a dying breed. He himself did PPE.
Seriously, history is interesting, and I read wikipedia compulsively, but a history degree is a good way to get a job as a waiter.
Interestingly, as a spoilt expat bratty kid from Dubai, I get the chance to speak to several executives, and what they say is actually quite interesting. There was this one guy who said that he wouldn't look at business/commerce majors (unless it's from a good university) because lots of people have them. For example, apparently in Australia there's 10,000 students studying business at universities across the country. He likes history degrees because the skills learnt in a history degree can be transferred to business. It was because of the analytical skills required or something like that. Same reason why he likes Classics students, but they're a dying breed. He himself did PPE.
Yeah, there's quite a few places here in the States that regard history degrees fairly highly. And you touch on a tiny portion of it (in the analytical skills), but the biggest factor is in the Research Skills. I myself am a history major, and about 80% of my course work is within the field. Each course ALWAYS has a minimum of one research paper, and the ones Ive done that have required more, each paper MUST be separate and different from the others (so you cant start with a small subject, and expand on it with the big research paper). So, knowing not only what to research but actually HOW to do so, things like research strategies, resources, etc. are really the biggest takeaways from non-doctorate level history degrees.
Seriously, history is interesting, and I read wikipedia compulsively, but a history degree is a good way to get a job as a waiter.
Interestingly, as a spoilt expat bratty kid from Dubai, I get the chance to speak to several executives, and what they say is actually quite interesting. There was this one guy who said that he wouldn't look at business/commerce majors (unless it's from a good university) because lots of people have them. For example, apparently in Australia there's 10,000 students studying business at universities across the country. He likes history degrees because the skills learnt in a history degree can be transferred to business. It was because of the analytical skills required or something like that. Same reason why he likes Classics students, but they're a dying breed. He himself did PPE.
I've had job interviews in which the interviewer commented on my rhetoric background in college. It doesn't come up much just because I've been out of school for so long. But I heartily endorse it and explain that there are things that Aristotle said that absolutely apply to modern advertising. It's all just persuasion, after all, and our programming hasn't fundamentally changed in the last 2000+ years.
If you can get the interview, the rest is often more about how you can sell yourself as someone who'll help them meet their goals. It's a bit of a juggling act -- talking about yourself, but keep bringing it back to THEM and THEIR needs.
One of the strengths of a liberal arts degree is that you can morph it into what you need. Another is that (assuming you've had a good education) you should have gained some experience with critical thinking, analysis, making conclusions, etc.
My graduate degree isn't an MBA, but I took some MBA classes, and honestly I felt like I was a little better than some of my classmates at doing broad analysis, drawing conclusions, and determining next steps. They were mostly better working with numbers, but often it's not about doing calculations but understanding the overall business situation and *applying* those numbers. I didn't feel out of place in that regard, even with my "squishy" liberal arts degree.
Currently doing my third masters degree (this one is being paid for as part of a professional training scheme while working). I most certainly would not have even got an interview for this job if i had not gone back and done a second MSc to make up for the time out of the area i took between now and graduating the first time.
University level education is certainly very important for some jobs and fields and thr skills you should learn in any degree will hold you well in many areas such as critical thinking, research skills, etc.
But there is definately a point where you have to stop shoving people through university and take stock of what you are doing and why. Trade schools should be massively important and yet they are not.
The problem now, especially since the banks took a giant dump on everyone, is that even basic entry level graduate jobs now require a higher quality degree and 2-5 years experience... for what should be a job for graduates to get on graduating. With cut downs in staff sizes, there are those skilled people to fill those jobs, leading recent graduates nothing they can go for...
It is a fast food chain, but it's more local than the likes of McDonalds and Burger King, fethers won't even bring their tasty burgers to the midwest
Yes, that makes it regional. Much like Steak 'n Shake or Culver's.
Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
I also don't think that "dirty jobs" as such are stigmatized. The jobs that have been have done so because of the typical people who work them. In many ways, working Fast Food at 30 almost should come with a stigma (at least, outside of military towns). Same thing if you are working as a gas station attendant, in a movie theater, etc. but are not management, quite often times, something has gone wrong.
But that determination should be left to that person. If something has gone wrong in their life, then they almost certainly know. There is no need to make such a person feel worse, while simultaneously judging people who didn't end up in similar positions by way of mistakes.
I was a mechanic at a dealership, then i went to college to become a paramedic and on to the firedepartment. I made more most years as a mechanic. However, i do enjoy my work now much more and college opened that door for me. Of course i'm still paying off a large school loan for my time at the university.
In my experience its work ethic that produces better work and over time a higher income.
Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
Edit: WTF is a Culver's?
To my knowledge Steak 'n Shakes don't exist on the West Coast.
Also, this is Culver's. Think Dairy Queen if Dairy Queen didn't suck.
The problem now, especially since the banks took a giant dump on everyone, is that even basic entry level graduate jobs now require a higher quality degree and 2-5 years experience... for what should be a job for graduates to get on graduating. With cut downs in staff sizes, there are those skilled people to fill those jobs, leading recent graduates nothing they can go for...
Wow. May as well blame bush too. What an ignorant statement.
McDonalds just gave their CEO a $5 million/year raise.
.
Which has absolutely zero bearing on how much a person that dumps frozen food into a fryer should make.
They should get a 5 dollar an hour bump based on how much you dislike fried food after working a fryer for several hours a day. I've worked a fryer 3 times in my life, and I couldn't touch fried foods for a week after each time...
Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
Edit: WTF is a Culver's?
To my knowledge Steak 'n Shakes don't exist on the West Coast.
Also, this is Culver's. Think Dairy Queen if Dairy Queen didn't suck.
Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
Edit: WTF is a Culver's?
To my knowledge Steak 'n Shakes don't exist on the West Coast.
Also, this is Culver's. Think Dairy Queen if Dairy Queen didn't suck.
Interesting, I shall have to try this Culver's...
I and my belly can vouch for Culver's... .great example of goodfast food.
I did say that In 'N Out was LOCAL. Sadly they are not across the country.
I agree that CEO pay has no actual bearing on entry level pay. My point about McDonalds has more to do with them only offering what they pay for burger flippers compared to a company that is by and large immensely successful doing the EXACT same job differently and paying better.
Let's go one further. Costco. More or less the same business model as Wal Mart and Sam's Club: buy and sell in bulk at a lower % and make it up in volume. Costco meanwhile starts at something like $12/hr, the average employee pay is $17/hr, they only hire full time that I'm aware of, and their CEO refuses to take any bonuses or raises(despite push from other companies to do so). And that company is also wildly successful.
I agree that "deserve" is not the right word. Perhaps "entitled to" is more appropriate. People can feel they deserve whatever, but in reality they are not entitled to that same thing.
If McDonalds wants to change their company around to be more like In 'N Out(whether you like them or not, you cannot deny their success at quality fast food) then sure, pay McJobs more. While they are still selling bleach burgers and Glue Nuggets, they are not worth me paying more(or anything since I don't eat there) and if their product is crap they have to charge less, and if they charge less they pay less.
I maintain that McJobs are for children. If the Waste Management guys want more money, that I feel could be argued to a certain point as it's not some menial task that really isn't important. It's a vital service to communities, and I tip my hat to those that do it and feel they should be paid appropriately.
To that same end though, look at EMT's. The make on average $9/hr, and they are saving people's lives. You don't see them picketing on the street refusing to work because they want more money. Most of the career medics go to school to advance their careers and make more money, like grown ups.
This is interesting, My Proff and I had a conversation. She said some interesting things, like college can be for everyone if they have realistic expectations, She sees to many students come in, think they will get their dream job with a single degree and no work(She said this is especially true for science majors and art majors) and that if there was more transperency alot more would get done.
Culvers is awsome but slightly evil (CURSE YOU INCONVENIENT LOCATION(s)) i get an order of onion rings there once a week when im done donating plasma for the second time
cincydooley wrote: Wow. May as well blame bush too. What an ignorant statement.
Rightyo...
I'll just ignore the experience of the large number of people I graduated with in 2008 and onwards then... one of the contributary factors for new graduate employment rates dropping post 2008-ish was more experienced workers who had been let go from elsewhere taking the entry level jobs that would normally have gone to graduates, having a knock on effect on graduate employment.
And when I first started employing for jobs in 2007/8, the graduate level jobs were all asking for "degree in field X, of level Y"... from 2009 onwards they all wanted at least 2 years experience, for the same job.
That university isn't for everyone? That sometimes even if you do well, get a good qualification from a good institution you might struggle to get a job in your chosen field because of outside factors? That people can and are, in some instances, better served by learning a trade or doing something other than going to university?
I'm not entirely sure why you are being so hostile...
Edit: To the topic itself, I agree with Mike Rowe that we should be pushing trades just as hard as college, and that people need to stop looking down on so-called "menial workers". College is not for everyone, and I would argue in fact college is not for most people. Few jobs out there have skill sets that are directly taught in colleges. Doctors, lawyers, engineers: these are the exceptions instead of the rule. Most people will learn more useful skills in their first week on the job than in the 4 (or more) years spent in college.
That university isn't for everyone? That sometimes even if you do well, get a good qualification from a good institution you might struggle to get a job in your chosen field because of outside factors? That people can and are, in some instances, better served by learning a trade or doing something other than going to university?
I'm not entirely sure why you are being so hostile...
And how does all that relate to the heaping blame you were shoveling on banks again?
Redbeard wrote: .
McDonalds just gave their CEO a $5 million/year raise.
Which has absolutely zero bearing on how much a person that dumps frozen food into a fryer should make.
..,
Aerethan wrote:
I agree that CEO pay has no actual bearing on entry level pay. My point about McDonalds has more to do with them only offering what they pay for burger flippers compared to a company that is by and large immensely successful doing the EXACT same job differently and paying better.
CEO pay should have a bearing on entry level pay, in that it's ludicrous to believe that any one individual's value to a company is 480 times that of another's. Those multiples are simply not believable. But, let's assume you're correct in stating that CEO pay should have no bearing. That's fine. I didn't bring it up by way of comparison, I brought it up as evidence that the company can obviously afford to pay more to the employees without crashing their profit margins.
I maintain that McJobs are for children.
That's swell, you keep maintaining that. And keep ducking my real question too.
Maybe McJobs are for children, but McHiring Managers continue to show a preference for hiring adults (more reliable) for these positions. Given the lack of other jobs out there currently, even for those with college degrees, where do you think the onus for keeping McJob-employed people from starving falls: on their employers, or on the taxpayers?
That university isn't for everyone? That sometimes even if you do well, get a good qualification from a good institution you might struggle to get a job in your chosen field because of outside factors? That people can and are, in some instances, better served by learning a trade or doing something other than going to university?
I'm not entirely sure why you are being so hostile...
And how does all that relate to the heaping blame you were shoveling on banks again?
Just because older people are working McJobs at minimum wage doesn't mean those jobs were intended to be careers for adults. They weren't. And aren't.
One of those rare moments when Cincy and I are on the same page.
I don't care who works McJobs. But don't go around pretending that grown ass adults can survive on entry level unskilled labor on their own. Even McDonald's budget helper they released shows that McJobs and their equivalents are only viable means of surviving if you work 2 of them at 60-70 hours per week and your rent does not exceed $550. Even in the dankest ghetto here in SoCal a 1 bed apartment runs at least $750.
If you want to support a family, entry level BS isn't gonna cut it, and people need to realize that instead of demanding that their jobs become equal to their wishes. For every single one of my employees working from home, they understand that it's part time and that it generally doesn't pay enough in hours to support them on their own. As such, ALL of my employees either live with parents or room mates, or have a spouse who is the primary earner for their household and this job is only supplemental income. These are things that I take into consideration when hiring. The last thing I want is to hire someone only to have them quit 2 months later because they finally found full time work somewhere else. It's a waste of my time.
McEmployees knew what they job paid when they took it. To demand 2x as much money for the same job is ludicrous. Even 10% raises are pretty hefty compared to other markets.
McEmployees knew what they job paid when they took it. To demand 2x as much money for the same job is ludicrous. Even 10% raises are pretty hefty compared to other markets.
What a spoiled life you must live in fantasy land. Seriously, "they knew what it paid when they took it." As if there were jobs growing on trees these days. Have you looked at unemployment statistics. The real ones, not the sanitized ones that discount people who "stopped looking". Maybe, people are taking these jobs because making $7/hour is better than making $0/hour. And maybe they have a right to ask for a living wage for a day's work. Maybe if good jobs weren't being offshored, with corporate tax breaks for doing so, McJobs wouldn't be the only left on-shore. The way you speak, from on-high, makes it seem like you're ignoring the fact that a whole lot of McJob holders have gone to college, have gotten better training, and that there simply aren't jobs that require that training available.
If a job is worth hiring someone to do, it's worth paying them enough for them to live. This is just pragmatism. Because if someone is working full-time for you, and still not making enough to survive, then the taxpayers are forced to pick up the bill.
Most McDonalds employees, and other major fast food places, have decent customer service from my experience. The one closest to my home (2 miles... ish...) has some excellent customer service from the point of view of the courteousness of staff.
It's amazing that anybody would defend a company making massive profit at the expense of it's staff. They might be "unskilled", but they are pretty indispensable for the company overall.
McEmployees knew what they job paid when they took it. To demand 2x as much money for the same job is ludicrous. Even 10% raises are pretty hefty compared to other markets.
What a spoiled life you must live in fantasy land. Seriously, "they knew what it paid when they took it." As if there were jobs growing on trees these days. Have you looked at unemployment statistics. The real ones, not the sanitized ones that discount people who "stopped looking". Maybe, people are taking these jobs because making $7/hour is better than making $0/hour. And maybe they have a right to ask for a living wage for a day's work. Maybe if good jobs weren't being offshored, with corporate tax breaks for doing so, McJobs wouldn't be the only left on-shore. The way you speak, from on-high, makes it seem like you're ignoring the fact that a whole lot of McJob holders have gone to college, have gotten better training, and that there simply aren't jobs that require that training available.
If a job is worth hiring someone to do, it's worth paying them enough for them to live. This is just pragmatism. Because if someone is working full-time for you, and still not making enough to survive, then the taxpayers are forced to pick up the bill.
Except McJobs are virtually NEVER full time.I've worked minimum wage jobs back when I was younger. The work was generally easy and boring, and I didn't care enough about it to let those jobs stress me out. I performed just well enough to not get fired, while knowing that moving up the chain was not worth sticking it out at that low of pay for 10 years. And when I got married, I busted my ass to get a better paying job, and low and behold I found one. I had to compete for it, I had to work hard at it, and it stressed me out plenty, but I understood what was needed to get by. Now sure, in plenty of places those jobs may not be around, and moving out of the area may not be an option. And for those people I do have at least some sympathy.
But this is capitalism, and you can't say to a company "I want this job for $1500/mo" when the next person competing for that same job is ok with $1000/mo.
Sure, if EVERYONE refused to work at Wal Mart and McDonalds for $7/hr, those companies would be forced to up the pay. But for every person complaining about $7/hr there is some kid or(not that I'm saying this is a solution) some migrant worker who is willing to do it for whatever they can get.
It is depressing as gak to see adults working at McDonalds, but ask any adult working there how many applications they've put in this week for a better job, and the results are likely zero.
Now yes, you are right that plenty of people went to college and have to work McJobs. So the point of the thread remains, did they really need college to begin with? Did they chose fields that are over saturated with unemployed people of similar skill?
Now it doesn't help that we've pushed retirement ages all the way up to 65(which is a whole other discussion) so let's keep in mind that a lot of jobs aren't missing, they're being held onto because people can't retire for 10 more years than they were told they could their whole lives. So yeah, that corporate position isn't available because Larry has to keep at it for another 5 years in order to retire, and old people seem to be living longer and longer these days and Lord knows they Govt doesn't pay what they were told it would so they have to keep working.
It is a damn shame if a college graduate has to work minimum wage, but that is sadly the state of the country. It is more sad when I have to pass on them for part time work because they have no actual experience with the field I'm hiring for. I've passed up a lot of people I've interviewed because I knew they were overqualified and would still be looking for a better paying gig, meaning it would have been a waste of my company's time and money to train them only to see them leave a few months down the road. Luckily, most of my employees have been with us since my department started a year ago, and the turnaround has been low. When the company grows, I get to hire more, but I have to take into consideration who I hire and if they intend on keeping the job long enough to validate the cost of training them.
And I'm far from spoiled. With 2 kids and a wife and living where I live, I barely make enough for us to get by. Call me spoiled after I've moved next year to a state where renting a 2 bed condo doesn't cost $1600/mo. I can't wait for that change.
Do I agree with McDonalds paying what they pay? I'll answer by saying I'd never work there. But I wouldn't eat there either, I'd rather they went away altogether. And I've shown that fast food can still be wildly successful while still paying VERY livable wages to it's employees without costing the customer money or quality.
There is no easy fix. If McDonalds decides to pay $15/hr, then we could assume prices would double at the very least to compensate for it. So now McDonalds is too expensive for their target customers(lower income) which means they have to close stores and cut hours. So now a few people make better money, a bunch lose their jobs, and it continues until they are all closed unless the company vastly changes their quality and brand(which just isn't gonna happen).
Vote with your wallet. If you don't like the way a company does things, don't shop there. I don't eat McDonalds, I don't go to Wal Mart. I very much prefer to spend my money at places that have good quality, reasonable prices, and who have a positive impact on the community and it's customers.
Most McDonalds employees, and other major fast food places, have decent customer service from my experience. The one closest to my home (2 miles... ish...) has some excellent customer service from the point of view of the courteousness of staff.
It's amazing that anybody would defend a company making massive profit at the expense of it's staff. They might be "unskilled", but they are pretty indispensable for the company overall.
Also, I'm very much not in defense of McDonalds. They are a terrible company and I wish they'd go away. There are plenty of far better options out there, but 99% of the time it is a local brand only(which I'm fine with).
I do love me some Steak and Shake, but we don't have them here in CA(along with legal weed, reasonable housing costs and a split electoral vote).
College is not for everyone. Some jobs are not for everyone. I actually have some college but I am a Union Ironworker ( One of those crazed maniacs that can walk on a piece of 2" wide steel 180 feet in the air with nothing to tie off to) and am very happy with my choice. Will I ever be a millionaire? Nope. I make about $80,000 a year doing a job that takes a special skill.
I explain to people what it is that I do and they look at me like I am friggin nuts. Is it cold this time of year? Indeed. Does it suck sometimes having to work in the rain when a truck MUST be unloaded? It does. Does it have it's benefits? Hell yeah. A doctor makes more money than I do, as does a CEO from a large company. I, however, have a very distinct advantage in some areas though. When my boss is an idiot and wants to do something that is borderline ignorant, I can tell him about it. I can literally MF the guy up one side and down the other and it is accepted. We work hard and we play hard.
I have actually worked for Fortune 500 companies prior to my current job, and I can tell you this. I have never, in my life, seen so many drugs (read as coke, pot, meth, shrooms, etc) as I have when I worked for them. It did not take me long to figure out that I was not cut out for Corporate America.
My only problem with the way our current education system works is in my limited interaction with engineers. I am quite adept at reading blueprints and figuring out how to put steel structures together ... I mean ... it is really just a large erector set that each piece weighs about 1,200 to 3,000 pounds. Some of the engineers have a problem with thinking 3 dimensionally and cannot get it through their heads that just because it is on a print does NOT mean that it will work in reality.
I actually kinda feel bad for this next generation of kids coming up as it has been beat into their heads that you MUST go to college to make any money and that is just not true. I have friends that have degrees and either can not find a job or are working at places like Best Buy because they can not get a better job anywhere that they can use the college that they spent so much money on. Fairly sad really.
My only problem with the way our current education system works is in my limited interaction with engineers. I am quite adept at reading blueprints and figuring out how to put steel structures together ... I mean ... it is really just a large erector set that each piece weighs about 1,200 to 3,000 pounds. Some of the engineers have a problem with thinking 3 dimensionally and cannot get it through their heads that just because it is on a print does NOT mean that it will work in reality.
I have had the same problem with Software Engineers. The difference for me being that I am an electronics/computer technician for the army at the moment (and have no desire to continue in that field once I'm out)... We have gotten into discussions in my shop about who make the best engineers. It's quite clear to us that with the way we think, it's quite obvious not many engineers are cut out to do our job; But we've determined that while some-many of us would be good at engineering, it really is too much of a divide to really make a universal statement of "maintainers make better engineers than engineers make maintainers"
OIIIIIIO wrote: College is not for everyone. Some jobs are not for everyone. I actually have some college but I am a Union Ironworker ( One of those crazed maniacs that can walk on a piece of 2" wide steel 180 feet in the air with nothing to tie off to) and am very happy with my choice. Will I ever be a millionaire? Nope. I make about $80,000 a year doing a job that takes a special skill.
I explain to people what it is that I do and they look at me like I am friggin nuts. Is it cold this time of year? Indeed. Does it suck sometimes having to work in the rain when a truck MUST be unloaded? It does. Does it have it's benefits? Hell yeah. A doctor makes more money than I do, as does a CEO from a large company. I, however, have a very distinct advantage in some areas though. When my boss is an idiot and wants to do something that is borderline ignorant, I can tell him about it. I can literally MF the guy up one side and down the other and it is accepted. We work hard and we play hard.
I have actually worked for Fortune 500 companies prior to my current job, and I can tell you this. I have never, in my life, seen so many drugs (read as coke, pot, meth, shrooms, etc) as I have when I worked for them. It did not take me long to figure out that I was not cut out for Corporate America.
My only problem with the way our current education system works is in my limited interaction with engineers. I am quite adept at reading blueprints and figuring out how to put steel structures together ... I mean ... it is really just a large erector set that each piece weighs about 1,200 to 3,000 pounds. Some of the engineers have a problem with thinking 3 dimensionally and cannot get it through their heads that just because it is on a print does NOT mean that it will work in reality.
I actually kinda feel bad for this next generation of kids coming up as it has been beat into their heads that you MUST go to college to make any money and that is just not true. I have friends that have degrees and either can not find a job or are working at places like Best Buy because they can not get a better job anywhere that they can use the college that they spent so much money on. Fairly sad really.
A fine example of a career where college isn't needed, and practical skill and experience are what will get you earning decent money. Sure it limits your earning potential, but 80k is a hell of a lot more than I make, for skills I don't have.
We can't all be doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists... Someone has to build our houses, and grow our food. I know how to do none of these things, so I stick to what I know, which is contents insurance evaluation. Is it glorious? No. Is it limitless earning potential? No. Is it better than every minimum wage job I've worked? Very much so.
I didn't dream of going into insurance as a kid. I wanted to go into practical effects. And just as I got to the age to move in that direction, CGI showed up and by and large crippled a large chunk of the industry I wanted to be in. So instead I spent 10 years trying my hand at different jobs until I found one I was good at, and that I could excel at. McDonalds should never be that choice for someone, unless they are opening their own store(at which point there are so many better franchise options).
McDonald's jobs may not be. Walmart jobs sure are. Other retail wage slaves are.
But this is capitalism, and you can't say to a company "I want this job for $1500/mo" when the next person competing for that same job is ok with $1000/mo.
This is capitalism gone awry. It was still capitalism in 1968, when minimum wage was roughly $10/hour in today's dollars. Capitalism doesn't mean no oversight. Capitalism can still be capitalism without the laisses-faire approach. The economy didn't spontaneously combust in 1968 because minimum wage was too high. What's happened is that the government is bought and paid for by the corporations, and that's why minimum wage isn't keeping pace with inflation. Given that minimum wage, even at 1968 levels, is still a fairly low wage, when it drops below the poverty line, the government steps in with hand-outs in order to stop people starving to death. Rather than pay their employees, the corporation pockets the money and the tax payers subsidize the corporation's payroll.
This is a blatant redistribution of wealth from the poorest and least able in the society to the wealthiest. But the wealthy ones are the ones calling the shots so it continues.
Do I agree with McDonalds paying what they pay? I'll answer by saying I'd never work there. But I wouldn't eat there either, I'd rather they went away altogether. And I've shown that fast food can still be wildly successful while still paying VERY livable wages to it's employees without costing the customer money or quality.
There is no easy fix. If McDonalds decides to pay $15/hr, then we could assume prices would double at the very least to compensate for it. So now McDonalds is too expensive for their target customers(lower income) which means they have to close stores and cut hours. So now a few people make better money, a bunch lose their jobs, and it continues until they are all closed unless the company vastly changes their quality and brand(which just isn't gonna happen).
This is not true. If minimum wage were raised to $15/hour, McDonalds prices would likely go up, but very very slightly. McDonalds is in a very price-competitive market, they cannot just raise their prices, even if their labour cost increases, because people will go elsewhere. As it is, I work in downtown Chicago and can get a better burger at any number of sit-down restaurants for $10, and these places wouldn't be impacted by the minimum wage rise as they're already paying their employees more (especially if you include tips). McDonald's cannot raise their prices to that level. What would happen is that they might see their annual profits dip a little. This wouldn't actually be the worst thing in the world.
Instead, what would happen is that the economy would start moving again. Some prices might go up, but all wages would go up because trade would increase in general. Far smarter economists than me have all written articles about this. The number one drag on our economy right now is that the wealth is consolidated in the hands of a small few, who don't spend it.
I agree with you that this is not how capitalism is supposed to work.
I also agree that far too much wealth is held by far too few.
But the people in position to change policy don't because they are paid better to leave things alone or make them worse for the public. And we as a nation let it happen. We allow career congressmen to run forever. We allow them to pay themselves whatever they want, and to ignore rules they rest of us have to obey.
McDonalds would never put the nations economy ahead of their shareholders. Nor would Wal Mart. They will continue to serve the interest of profit above all else. They don't care about making the country great. They don't care if the country is crap. As long as they make money, then all is well to them.
Oddly enough, at my company profit is not the priority. It's not mentioned in our mission statement, and it's not enough to keep people's jobs should they act against said mission statement. I've seen people fired for overcharging companies for products where all the rep cared about was their commission. I've seen people fired for creating a terrible experience for a policy holder despite their profit history and performance.
But then we are also a privately held company. The stock market I fear does not work as it was intended to. I always thought of it as a way to invest into a company in hopes of profiting off it's success that resulted from my investment.
Wal Mart is hardly in need of investors. It makes no sense for companies to be publicly traded if they don't need investments. That the stock market can destroy a company regardless of it's products and services is stupid.
Perhaps I'm not educated enough on that front, but it all seems very broken to me. I am just doing my best to work within the system we've got to provide for my family and my self, and I encourage anyone working minimum wage to put effort into getting better work, whether that means going to school or taking an apprenticeship learning a proper tradeskill.
I am by no stretch of the imagination any kind of a fiscal genius, having said that, I really believe that one of the biggest problems that America faces is corporate greed. In the 50's and 60's if a company made 3 or even 4 percent profit ... they were doing great. This started to change in the late 60's early 70's. Now, if a company is not making 300% profit then they are going bankrupt.
There are many things that play into that but from my limited view I see it this way: Due to the litigious nature that has become the American Corporate landscape they have to make this kind of profit because you never know when you are going to get sued over something as trivial as 'Hot Coffee' or 'Slippery Floors' even though you put ample warning signs EVERYWHERE.
Education is not a bad thing, however, just because you have a college degree does not mean you are the smartest person in the room. Sadly, this is how most of the people think that I have dealt with that have a degree. This is a prime example. I was working at General Electric and we had a site wide meeting about FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act). The Site coordinator (Head guy at the facility) was telling us that the facility had lost a million dollars in the previous year at this site. The way he was explaining it was leading people to believe that the company had shown no profit at all, but in fact was in the red.
You must understand this about me first and foremost ... if I think something is BS ... I say so. At the end he asked if there were any questions. I raise my hand. "Did the site, after you paid everyone's salary, paid for the electricity, paid for the computers, paid for every conceivable bill it takes to run this place, did the site make a dollar's profit?"
He him hawed around saying that there was this and that to consider, that there were expenses that we were not aware of and that FMLA had really put the site in a bind driving us to the negative.
I replied that I did not ask about hidden expenses or other considerations, but after ALL of the expenses considered, did the site make a dollar's profit. He verified that it did.
"Then you did not lose a million dollars, you just did not make what you wanted to make." That was the beginning of the end for my GE career.
The thing I am trying to convey about this little interaction that I had is that college can be a good thing, but keep yourself humble and you will do well after you get your degree. I
What a spoiled life you must live in fantasy land. Seriously, "they knew what it paid when they took it." As if there were jobs growing on trees these days. Have you looked at unemployment statistics. The real ones, not the sanitized ones that discount people who "stopped looking". Maybe, people are taking these jobs because making $7/hour is better than making $0/hour. And maybe they have a right to ask for a living wage for a day's work. Maybe if good jobs weren't being offshored, with corporate tax breaks for doing so, McJobs wouldn't be the only left on-shore. The way you speak, from on-high, makes it seem like you're ignoring the fact that a whole lot of McJob holders have gone to college, have gotten better training, and that there simply aren't jobs that require that training available.
If a job is worth hiring someone to do, it's worth paying them enough for them to live. This is just pragmatism. Because if someone is working full-time for you, and still not making enough to survive, then the taxpayers are forced to pick up the bill.
It took me 2 weeks when I got laid off from my teaching job in 2009 to find a decent paying part time job on a FedEx loading dock to supplement substitute teaching. They exist. They're not hard to get. And they're not intended to raise a family on. I had to work two jobs to be able to pay all my bills, and while it was hard, it's what I had to do to ensure my gak was taken care of.
I have little to no sympathy for someone that thinks they should be able to support a family on a fast food job.
It's amazing that anybody would defend a company making massive profit at the expense of it's staff. They might be "unskilled", but they are pretty indispensable for the company overall.
You're fooling yourself if you really believe that. A McDonald fry cook or cashier is the epitome of dispensable.
I will add smething, to those that say the mcdonalds are kids jobs....they are not, they ask for you if you can work at any hours, which students, especially under 18, cannot do. Infact most food places ask that.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I will add smething, to those that say the mcdonalds are kids jobs....they are not, they ask for you if you can work at any hours, which students, especially under 18, cannot do. Infact most food places ask that.
And yet, plenty of high school kids still figure out how to work restaurant jobs and stay in school at the same time.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yeah, but not fast food, mostly starbucks here. And Small Businesses. Over here Small Businesses are the biggest employers for students.
When I was in high school plenty of my fellow classmates worked at McDonald's or Burger King, and there are still plenty of high school aged kids working at those same places. I don't think it's really the norm to not have younger employees working at fast food places.
Check out the book The Real Crash by Peter Schiff. There is a good chapter on education. Unfortunately, I think we have been fed a lie on education, which has resulted in a generation who graduate from college, with very real and sizable debts, and whose job prospects may not be that different from what they could have gotten straight out of high school. In addition, the student loan debt will be a very real anchor on anything else you do later.
Ifurita wrote: Check out the book The Real Crash by Peter Schiff. There is a good chapter on education. Unfortunately, I think we have been fed a lie on education, which has resulted in a generation who graduate from college, with very real and sizable debts, and whose job prospects may not be that different from what they could have gotten straight out of high school. In addition, the student loan debt will be a very real anchor on anything else you do later.
Yup. It's a great read. Student lending is far more questionable than any sub prime mortgage lending has ever been.
"This is not true. If minimum wage were raised to $15/hour, McDonalds prices would likely go up, but very very slightly. "
No. Wrong.
ALL prices would go up. Not only would every minimum wage job pay twice as much, but the prices would be raised to accommodate the increased payroll. You certainly don't think the CEOs are going to take a pay cut do you?
Also, once everyone is earning more, prices will be raised, even in areas that do not have to increase payroll. Why you might ask? Well, there is more money rolling around out there so companies can charge more.
cincydooley wrote:
It took me 2 weeks when I got laid off from my teaching job in 2009 to find a decent paying part time job on a FedEx loading dock to supplement substitute teaching. They exist.
Wow. So, explain to me exactly why working a loading dock is more valuable or requires more skill than working a fryer? Are you really suggesting that a loading dock job (which, I've never had, but I can't imagine is more brain intensive than lifting boxes and possibly scanning bar codes) has more value for society than preparing someone's food or handling their customer service needs?
See, I'm not trying to put down the loading dock job, I firmly believe that any honest job has value. I'm just wondering why you're suggesting that fast food is somehow inferior to the loading dock.
cincydooley wrote:
It took me 2 weeks when I got laid off from my teaching job in 2009 to find a decent paying part time job on a FedEx loading dock to supplement substitute teaching. They exist.
Wow. So, explain to me exactly why working a loading dock is more valuable or requires more skill than working a fryer? Are you really suggesting that a loading dock job (which, I've never had, but I can't imagine is more brain intensive than lifting boxes and possibly scanning bar codes) has more value for society than preparing someone's food or handling their customer service needs?
See, I'm not trying to put down the loading dock job, I firmly believe that any honest job has value. I'm just wondering why you're suggesting that fast food is somehow inferior to the loading dock.
Did I ever suggest it did? Nope. My point was that I was able to find better paying part time work easily and quickly.
I would, however, that the outdoor working conditions in sub freezing temperatures and the necessity to acquire certification with a forklift would make it more difficult than working a fryer, which I have also done while I was in college.
College is absolutely not necessary. Hard work and the will to learn is all one needs. Too many people assume college is a stepping stone to some great career. It can be, but that path is for a set collection of occupations that require college to gain entry.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I disagree, I am often unloading in the cold, and Then I work into the fryer, witch is inhumanely hot.
I'll tell you right now you're wrong. Having done both, they don't compare. Working a 6-8 hour shift entirely outdoors is much more physically demanding then occasionally unloading something outside and then working in a warm kitchen. I'll also note that the dock, in the middle if August, was much hotter than any Line I've ever worked on.
Ok, but you where saying earlier the fast food workers do not deserve a special wage because their job is not hard and does not require more then a few hours worth of training? Well I work loading boxes in a large, hot kitchen(Kitchens do get extremely hot, dry hot too, do not think they are "Warm") and that is hard, wo where is my extra pay?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ok, but you where saying earlier the fast food workers do not deserve a special wage because their job is not hard and does not require more then a few hours worth of training? Well I work loading boxes in a large, hot kitchen(Kitchens do get extremely hot, dry hot too, do not think they are "Warm") and that is hard, wo where is my extra pay?
It's not specialized at all. Not a single bit.
And it's not any sort of adverse working conditions. It's a kitchen. I've worked in one at a fast food restaurant and a fine dining restaurant. They're warm. And indoors.
Working at a fast food restaurant is the single most replaceable postition save perhaps prostitute, where all that's required there is a warm hole to fill.
My wife did three degrees. Did it help her find a job? Hell no. College is definately not something you need to do.
Want to do? preferably to actually get a foothold in a higher job (like doctor, or something in that realm) or in the sciences.
If you are content to only have a little money to spend, sure, skip college and go straight into work. My advice, work and study at the same time, preferably a job in either the food industry OR office work. Both mean you actually get a taste of pressure, and how easy higher work it.
Tell you what, if you want a job that pays well right out of college with an abundance of employment options? Become a Registered Nurse. 2 years community college, 2 years Nursing school, all of which can be done while working part time(or full time if you don't need much sleep).
The schooling is dirt cheap(compared to most 4 year courses) and the average starting pay is $30+/hr full time. Most RN's work 3x 12 hour shifts, meaning 4 day weekends. Most RN's opt to work holidays because they are 2x hourly. And last I checked there was something like a 15% deficit of RN's compared to the demand.
My mother(estranged as we may be) and 2 of my sisters are RN's. And while the younger sister did lolly gag about for a few months before applying for a job, her very first RN gig she got on the first try and it started at $32/hr full time with benefits. While she was in school she was an EMT making $10/hr doing 3x 12 hour shifts.
If any of you have ever been to a hospital in the US, you know damn well that any random idiot with a cursory knowledge of English can become an RN.
So there. There is your answer. Is it college? technically. Is it expensive? Not really, and even then you make enough money so quickly at it that what small studen loans you do have could be paid off in well under 4 years.
Now back to the major point: is it what you always dreamed of doing? Not likely, but it will certainly solve a LOT of financial issues for you in a relatively short amount of time compared to trying to work up corporate ladders.
hotsauceman1 wrote: That is something my mother said I should do, she said she saw me as either a history teacher, or a nurse
There is a lot of stigma behind male nurses, but then you can always remind those mocking you that you make more than they do and you enjoy 4 day weekends and that'll shut them up right quick.
I don't have the bedside manner for nursing. I have the bedside manner of of a tiger shark.
To that same end though, look at EMT's. The make on average $9/hr, and they are saving people's lives. You don't see them picketing on the street refusing to work because they want more money. Most of the career medics go to school to advance their careers and make more money, like grown ups.
The only one of these averages (I assume they are means) which approaches 9 USD per hour is West Virginia at $11.72, meaning that the national average (mean) is significantly higher than that.
Of course, part of the reason that the pay for EMTs is what it is now is that theyhavepicketed in the past.
I don't have the bedside manner for nursing. I have the bedside manner of of a tiger shark.
You flail uncontrollably as you slowly suffocate in a non-aqueous environment?
Aerethan wrote: Tell you what, if you want a job that pays well right out of college with an abundance of employment options? Become a Registered Nurse. 2 years community college, 2 years Nursing school, all of which can be done while working part time(or full time if you don't need much sleep).
Why would you get an associates degree, and then get another associates degree? Why not just get a 3 year associates in nursing? I mean, if you're going to spend 4 years in college, just get a BSN; you'll be way more employable.
I am getting my Phd this semester but i firmly believe in the apprenticeship system.
i might be a bit biased because im german and that education system is like 'typical' german. nonetheless i think that learning what is necessary to perform a certain job from somebody who is a master in said profession is the way to go. the plumber is a good example, the electrician heck even mechanics or technicians. all which are by no means 'stupid' jobs.
acquiring relevant knowledge, learning from the 'pros' and maybe even getting already paid for that - contrary to learning stuff you might never need professionally and having to pay for it. yes i would say not everybody needs college.
as for the financial side: i am now 32 and had never a real (paying) job. hooray for academia -.- anyway lets say that you get a paid job with 30-33 when you go the phd route vs a apprentice who gets paid from the start when he is about 17. that much of a head start in lifetime income is difficult to catch up. even if (like in Germany) your university was basically free and you are not in debt over your head.
does everybody need college? no. might it benefit your personal development? yes is it worth it? depends i guess. i would hope that more people learn a trade and go to college when they are a bit more mature and get something out of it.
And how does all that relate to the heaping blame you were shoveling
Sorry fpr deleting part of your post - phone is a pita to edit quotes and there is no undo button.
But to answer - I dont recall'heaping blame' on the banks. I said they exaccerbated an already existing problem. I dont know if you have seen the news in the last 5 years or so but a lot of companies have had staff freezes or reductions - those experienced workers are then looking for jobs and are being taken back into their industries often in lower paid entry level jobs, which would normally go to graduates. So rather than just competition between graduates you now have less places hiring less people, with more experienced worker applying for those entry level jobs along with a backlog of graduates...
If any of you have ever been to a hospital in the US, you know damn well that any random idiot with a cursory knowledge of English can become an RN.
The NCLEX is not an easy test, by any stretch of the imagination.
Also, I suspect you're confusing RNs with LPNs. RNs are almost never the majority of nurses in any given hospital.
I suspect you either live in a "not nice part of town" Aerethan, or you have horrible judge of a person's skills at the hospital. My sister in law is an ER nurse and it is most definitely not a job for "any random idiot with a cursory knowledge of English"
To hear her talk, it's the Doctors in the ER who are wholly replaceable and idiotic. The thing is, is that it's the nurses who actually KNOW the patients, not just a chart. It's the nurses who have to know that if they are on medication X, then they under no conditions must EVER take medication Y. They have to be able to remind the doctors who only see the chart of these medications, etc. While being an RN is not the top of the line for her credentials, she is also working towards becoming a Nurse Practitioner, which if she stays at the hospital she's at means a big pay raise, but it also means that she will be able to prescribe certain levels of medication (as in, NPs can give people Tylenol, Motrin, Pepto Bismal, that sort of thing, without the doctor having to write it up), which means also an increase in responsibility.
So no, nursing is not a job that just anyone can do, not to even mention the physical aspects of the job that she has to deal with.
Nurses also have one of the highest divorce rates of any profession. It is not a job that leads to a stable relationship - if that matters to you (or your SO). My wife considered nursing when she went back to school, and chose against it for that reason.
I don't regret going to University as I met my partner there, however it was mostly unnecessary. I studied Comparative Literature and Philosophy. I enjoyed my time studying. I learned valuable critical thinking, communication and knowledge of theorists which assist me in my job as a support worker for adults with learning disabilities and sexual convictions. However I needed a different set of qualifications which I'm studying for at a local college to be fully registered. I could have went to college or undertaken a modern apprenticeship and be where I am today.
I would like to go back to be a qualified social worker at some point.
Redbeard wrote: Nurses also have one of the highest divorce rates of any profession. It is not a job that leads to a stable relationship - if that matters to you (or your SO). My wife considered nursing when she went back to school, and chose against it for that reason.
my sister-in-law and brother in law have a very good working relationship. Thing is, he is a rural firefighter/paramedic, so they work fairly similar shifts and understand each other's work pretty well. Which may be a problem that other nurses dont get solved (the having an understanding SO)
@steamdragon... IIRC hadn't that particular McDs been reprimanded for the temperature of their coffee in the past? I remember that whole case was a big bag of ugly worms, and many people are OK with remaining ignorant of the facts and details, and then blaming the victim
To those saying that a "McJob" is a child's job - that's not true in every country in the world. Here, for example, you see mostly adult migrant workers working in those jobs. Do they not need a decently paying job, so they can support their families back home? I'd say that the model of McJobs may be true for most western developed countries (though I cannot speak from experience) but that's not true for all countries at all.
But regardless, remember the budget planning thing McD's put out? Which said that the workers should get a second job and then massively undercosted things? Would you not argue that you wouldn't want anyone to have to be in that position anyway, much less say your child?
In 2012, McDonalds had a $5.5 billion profit. With about 1.8 million employees in the world, and halving the money they made (which still is a significant amount of money) they could have afforded to give all those employees a bonus of $1527.77, which could be quite significant for some people.
Redbeard wrote: Nurses also have one of the highest divorce rates of any profession. It is not a job that leads to a stable relationship - if that matters to you (or your SO). My wife considered nursing when she went back to school, and chose against it for that reason.
my sister-in-law and brother in law have a very good working relationship. Thing is, he is a rural firefighter/paramedic, so they work fairly similar shifts and understand each other's work pretty well. Which may be a problem that other nurses dont get solved (the having an understanding SO)
If you have a wife/husband that doesnt understand your shifts or stuff like that, you didntt have a good relationship in the first place
hotsauceman1 wrote: If you have a wife/husband that doesnt understand your shifts or stuff like that, you didntt have a good relationship in the first place
It's not always that simple. Surely doing some kind of social science as you are you can see that?
If you have a wife/husband that doesnt understand your shifts or stuff like that, you didntt have a good relationship in the first place
There are always times where, even if you have an understanding, the timing of the shifts may cause strains in the first place. I know that with my wife and I both being in the military, having a 24 hour shift puts brief stress on the other one, because they have to pick up double the tasks they previously had. in my in-laws case; When both have a shift, they call on another family member to watch the kid and feed the dogs while they are gone... So while they do have an understanding of the shift work, it does take extra work, and causes extra stress/strain on the relationship the way things sometimes work out.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If you have a wife/husband that doesnt understand your shifts or stuff like that, you didntt have a good relationship in the first place
It's not always that simple. Surely doing some kind of social science as you are you can see that?
Hotsauceman hasn't even had a real relationship before, so he's speaking purely from ignorance here.
But yet, for some puzzling reason they are. So, why did these jobs evolve into what they are now?
Oh, I get that there are SOME adults working them because they've been laid off from their career profession. But that doesn't change the fact that the job isn't intended as a career to support a family. If you get laid off from a "career job" chances are you're going to have to have more than one part time job to replace it.
Anyone that thinks a McJob should be able replace a "career job" by itself is fooling themselves.
@hotsauce - you can have all the understanding in the world, but not seeing your spouse for days in a row can really take an emotional toll on a relationship. It starts subtly, and builds slowly. But it can be really, really damaging. Not seeing your spouse is a major reason people become unfaithful. You need that emotional fulfillment from somewhere.
If any of you have ever been to a hospital in the US, you know damn well that any random idiot with a cursory knowledge of English can become an RN.
The NCLEX is not an easy test, by any stretch of the imagination.
Also, I suspect you're confusing RNs with LPNs. RNs are almost never the majority of nurses in any given hospital.
I suspect you either live in a "not nice part of town" Aerethan, or you have horrible judge of a person's skills at the hospital. My sister in law is an ER nurse and it is most definitely not a job for "any random idiot with a cursory knowledge of English"
To hear her talk, it's the Doctors in the ER who are wholly replaceable and idiotic. The thing is, is that it's the nurses who actually KNOW the patients, not just a chart. It's the nurses who have to know that if they are on medication X, then they under no conditions must EVER take medication Y. They have to be able to remind the doctors who only see the chart of these medications, etc. While being an RN is not the top of the line for her credentials, she is also working towards becoming a Nurse Practitioner, which if she stays at the hospital she's at means a big pay raise, but it also means that she will be able to prescribe certain levels of medication (as in, NPs can give people Tylenol, Motrin, Pepto Bismal, that sort of thing, without the doctor having to write it up), which means also an increase in responsibility.
So no, nursing is not a job that just anyone can do, not to even mention the physical aspects of the job that she has to deal with.
I should have specified. ER nurses are the ones who do things and know stuff. Floor nurses(which are often still RN's) are the ones who are the exact opposite.
And yes, ER doctors don't know their elbows from their donkey-caves.
Aerethan wrote: I should have specified. ER nurses are the ones who do things and know stuff. Floor nurses(which are often still RN's) are the ones who are the exact opposite.
And yes, ER doctors don't know their elbows from their donkey-caves.
I don't know what it is like in Americaland but our doctors and nurses have quite extensive training and should undergo continuous training throughout their careers. Like any job there are some people who are good at it, some who are not so good. Blanket statements like the above are both inaccurate and disingenuous.
Aerethan wrote: I should have specified. ER nurses are the ones who do things and know stuff. Floor nurses(which are often still RN's) are the ones who are the exact opposite.
And yes, ER doctors don't know their elbows from their donkey-caves.
I don't know what it is like in Americaland but our doctors and nurses have quite extensive training and should undergo continuous training throughout their careers. Like any job there are some people who are good at it, some who are not so good. Blanket statements like the above are both inaccurate and disingenuous.
The problem people have with American ER docs is that their primary purpose is to keep people from dying and to fix catastrophic injuries quickly. It's not bedside manner, nor is it to provide any in depth diagnosis. I think people expect ER docs to be more like their family practitioner and they're just not intended to be.
Yeah, ER docs aren't regular hospital doctors (though some may be both) or private practice, they're there to pull what ever it is that shouldn't be in you out of you, get you patched up and into a non-life threatening situation, but they still tend to have more medical knowledge than I do.
SilverMK2 wrote: I don't know what it is like in Americaland but our doctors and nurses have quite extensive training and should undergo continuous training throughout their careers. Like any job there are some people who are good at it, some who are not so good. Blanket statements like the above are both ignorant and offensive.
There are plenty of GOOD nurses, sure. And for every decent nurse with proper bedside manner there are 4 floor nurses(of varying degrees of schooling) with little to no bedside manner at all.
I think the problem there is that a lot of them get jaded and they just start treating most every patient like they are there for a fix of pain meds.
And true, that may just be a local experience to where I've spent the most time in a hospital. But having spent 3 weeks in a hospital for emergency knee surgery, I'd rather have had ER nurses dealing with me the whole time than the jaded "don't give a feth" floor staff that local hospitals seem to employ in spades.
So to the hard working nurses, I apologize for my broad generalization.
Aerethan wrote: There are plenty of GOOD nurses, sure. And for every decent nurse with proper bedside manner there are 4 floor nurses(of varying degrees of schooling) with little to no bedside manner at all.
I think the problem there is that a lot of them get jaded and they just start treating most every patient like they are there for a fix of pain meds.
And true, that may just be a local experience to where I've spent the most time in a hospital. But having spent 3 weeks in a hospital for emergency knee surgery, I'd rather have had ER nurses dealing with me the whole time than the jaded "don't give a feth" floor staff that local hospitals seem to employ in spades.
So to the hard working nurses, I apologize for my broad generalization.
Eh... those are just "bad apples".
They're everywhere in all walks of life.
When I was "trying" to pass my kidney stones... the floor nurse really took care of me and emphasized the pain I was in (thus, gave me enough meds!)
YMMV with these sorts of experiences...
For what Nurses have to go through... they need to be paid much more than now IMO.
SilverMK2 wrote: You guys can have nurses who have not done any nursing qualifications?
Of course not...
Every state have requirements to be certified. Unless, you'd get your certification from a Federal agency (ie, Military outfits), you can potentially go to any states.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Maybe, Im just starting to wonder if im on the route to becoming one of the people who gets a degree and has nothing to show for it
That's why it's best to do something skill oriented in college that doesn't require a degree...
While I was attempting to get my BS in Education, I worked at my school's IT department. At the end of five years (feth you my school lied to me), I had a degree and 5 years of tech experience. I now have a decent job (albeit I'd like a little more pay) in a software division for an EH&S company based out of Carlsbad, California.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Maybe, Im just starting to wonder if im on the route to becoming one of the people who gets a degree and has nothing to show for it
You will want some sort of work experience before you graduate. This is a must to build your resume.
There needs to be a lot more training in "trades". Instead, schools seem to be push "college or bust" in the states. Meanwhile, someone could've become a fantastic welder for fantastic money (or myriad other things), but were never taught the skills.
Alfndrate wrote: While her body is incredible, I would prefer someone that has a slightly higher intelligence...
Her body doesn't do it for me, but I've seen people with doctorates fumble with their words when forced to speak in public; so kudos for having the sack to do something a lot of people find difficult.
Hell, in my experience most people don't have the balls to speak up in a class built around student interaction.
Hell, in my experience most people don't have the balls to speak up in a class built around student interaction.
This is something I've experienced as well, and it annoys the hell out of me. I've had classes that essentially boiled down to a back-and-forth between the professor and I, because no one else would say a thing. And in the times where I'd quiet down in the hopes that someone else might want to talk and I've just been hogging the spotlight, there's nothing but the most uncomfortable, dead silence. Why even attend classes when you won't even engage? Those are exactly the kind of people that shouldn't be going to college/university in the first place.
Hell, in my experience most people don't have the balls to speak up in a class built around student interaction.
This is something I've experienced as well, and it annoys the hell out of me. I've had classes that essentially boiled down to a back-and-forth between the professor and I, because no one else would say a thing. And in the times where I'd quiet down in the hopes that someone else might want to talk and I've just been hogging the spotlight, there's nothing but the most uncomfortable, dead silence. Why even attend classes when you won't even engage? Those are exactly the kind of people that shouldn't be going to college/university in the first place.
Alfndrate wrote: While her body is incredible, I would prefer someone that has a slightly higher intelligence...
Her body doesn't do it for me, but I've seen people with doctorates fumble with their words when forced to speak in public; so kudos for having the sack to do something a lot of people find difficult.
Hell, in my experience most people don't have the balls to speak up in a class built around student interaction.
Her body has just enough curve to it to not be super model skinny, which is fine because I never liked models that looked like pre-pubescent boys. And I've seen plenty of people fumble their words, but I just like that video and it gave me a perfect opportunity to post it
Alfndrate wrote: While her body is incredible, I would prefer someone that has a slightly higher intelligence...
Her body doesn't do it for me, but I've seen people with doctorates fumble with their words when forced to speak in public; so kudos for having the sack to do something a lot of people find difficult.
Hell, in my experience most people don't have the balls to speak up in a class built around student interaction.
Her body has just enough curve to it to not be super model skinny, which is fine because I never liked models that looked like per-pubescent boys. And I've seen plenty of people fumble there words, but I just like that video and it game me a perfect opportunity to post it
Speaking of fumbling words... (Or making typos, in this case)
He has a healthy sex life involving a woman he finds attractive?
I've never really kept track of celebreties I find attractive. I'm not knocking it, but I'm more focused on what I can actually have in person.
As I told a buddy the other night, the first thing I look for in a potential partner is (potential) willingness to sleep with me. Mutual interests are pretty superficial, what matters is chemistry.
