First of all, an introduction to Escalation. Escalation is a supplement that introduces Apocalypse units – namely super-heavies and gargantuan creatures – into normal games of Warhammer 40K. It allows you to use what usually are some very powerful units who were designed for much larger games. These units are what the Escalation supplement calls as Lords of War. I shall simply call them titans in this tactica.
This tactica is aimed more towards the competitive aspect of 40K gaming. While titans can be fun to play, they will no doubt also make the game very competitive as well, in most cases to the point that if you cannot kill them, then you will most likely get annihilated by them. I will look into the titans of the various armies and how to make those armies work. I will also go into how to play against these types of armies.
Titans Titans, or Lords of War units, are very powerful units found only in games of Apocalypse before the supplement came out. However, with Escalation now a part of 40K, you can now bring these behemoths into your games. Titans consist mainly of 2 types – the Super-heavies (SH’s) and the Gargantuan Creatures (GC’s). Super-heavies are vehicles and are further sub-divided into 3 types – Super-heavy Tanks, Super-heavy Walkers and Super-heavy Flyers. Gargantuans are divided into 2 types – normal Gargantuan Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures (FGC’s). The characteristics that both super-heavies and GC’s share is that both are usually very hard to kill and both can cause massive amounts of destruction.
Destroyer Weapons So what are Destroyer weapons, also known as Strength D weapons or just D-weapons/guns? They are simply the most destructive weapons in the game today. In many cases, just 1 D-weapon can potentially wipe out an entire unit with ease. These guns break many of the normal mechanics of the game. They ignore armor, cover, invulnerable saves, FNP, just almost everything in the game today (including Reanimation Protocols). They also practically ignore the mechanic of the Hull Point on regular vehicles. With the exception of other Titan defenses, there is almost no defense against Destroyer weaponry in regular 40K. It is mainly Titans with D-weapons that will be the problem for most armies to deal with. It is also the D-weapons that competitive gamers will flock to. Hence, there will be no avoiding it. You want to survive Escalation? Then you better be able to handle the D.
How to Play against Titans?
Elite Armies: Unfortunately, you are going to see Elitist armies die away in games of Escalation (or where Escalation is commonplace). Why? Because to a Destroyer gun, a land raider is just as easy to kill as a rhino. Your paladins, seer council and screamer-star are just as easy to kill as a unit of termagants. The 250-pt uber-character is not much more survivable than a normal marine sergeant. Elitist armies in competitive play will slowly phase out in games of Escalation simply because they are very inefficient against Destroyer weapons. Unfortunately, this is one of the side effects of the game that many people will have to deal with. It will render a lot of army builds practically obsolete.
Flyer Armies: This will be the golden age of the flyer. Armies with good flyers or flying monstrous creatures will thrive in the age of Escalation. One of the main weaknesses of Destroyer weapons is that most of them can’t shoot at flyers. Currently, all the units in the Escalation supplement who have Destroyer weaponry can only fire blasts. Thus, they cannot even shoot at flyers, at least not with their most powerful guns. Moreover, titans are so expensive that in most cases, one will find it hard to add adequate anti-air as well as troops and other support units in a titan army. The only army who can do it well will be Tau, who unfortunately lack a good titan themselves, and necrons, who just may be the most well-rounded army in games of Escalation. Thus, if your army can dominate the air, then they will have a decent chance against the titans.
MSU Armies: Escalation will be the comeback of the Multiple-Small Units (MSU) builds. First off, titans are so expensive that they need the rest of their army to be cheap and efficient. Secondly, more is better when playing against titans. A unit of 10 paladins will die just as easily as a unit of 10 scouts to Destroyer weaponry. Thus, why run 10 paladins when 5 units of 10 scouts (who can then combat squad into 10 squads of 5) is much, much more survivable? Moreover, it takes either Destroyer weaponry or massed firepower to kill a titan. MSU is what will gives you the best massed firepower to deal with titans. So for non-flyer armies, MSU is good both for titan armies and against titan armies.
Drop Pod Armies: Drop pod armies are one of the few builds that won’t really change whether playing against titans or regular armies. However, drop pod armies will have the advantage of getting the alpha-strike on a titan. Thus, I see drop pod armies continue to proliferate in the era of Escalation as they have been doing in 6th Edition. The only thing about drop pod armies is that they are limited to Imperial armies, but for those Imperial armies who don’t run super-heavies, you will very likely see them run drop pod armies in games of Escalation.
Daemons: Daemons are actually one of the armies that can thrive in Escalation games. They have a hugely competitive build – Flying Monstrous Creatures-spam, or FMC-spam – that will also translate well into games of Escalation (as long as they grab the Portaglyph to shore up their scoring). They also have what may be one of the best weapons against Titans – Be’lakor and Puppet Master. With the advent of the titan, Puppet Master may well become one of the most important psychic powers in the game.
When in Doubt, Hide: Yes, this is going to be a common strategy in Escalation. There just is no defense against Destroyer weaponry other than to be in reserves, stay up in the air or to just hide. If you cannot kill the opposing Destroyer titan, then you better find a hole to crawl under or prepare to lose a unit. Oftentimes, you will have little choice but to play the denial game against enemy titans.
PART I - ELDAR
I am going to start my tactica with what may arguably be the most powerful army to come out of Escalation – the Eldar. The Eldar (and Dark Eldar) currently possesses the most devastating Titan in the game of Escalation so far – the Revenant Titan. Why is this monster so deadly? Because whereas most of the other titans in Escalation have at most 1 or 2 Destroyer attacks/shots, the Revenant has 4 of those shots. Moreover, they aren’t just shots, they are Destroyer blasts. Yes, the Revenant is the titan most likely to erase 2 units each turn. What also sets him apart is that he is also the most mobile, non-flyer titan in the game thanks to his 36” move and he is the only titan in Escalation currently who has some type of defense against other Destroyer shots with its Eldar Titan Holo-fields (ETHF’s). ETHF’s are so good because they are the only mechanism currently that provides some type of save against other Destroyer weaponry. Moreover, the Revenant can still potentially get other saves on top of their ETHF defense (i.e. cover, Forewarning, Skyshield Landing Pads).
Every competitive Escalation Eldar army is going to include a Revenant. They are just too good.
For each tactica, I will include a sample list for a competitive Escalation army. Please note that the list I offer isn’t the be-all-end-all of competitive Escalation lists. Rather, they are lists that I feel can thrive in games of Escalation. Feel free to use my lists as a foundation, to expand on them or even to ignore them completely.
I will also address some of the weaknesses of each build and how to play against those types of armies. For my tacticas, I will not include elements from the Stronghold Assault supplement. That, I will leave to the discretion of the readers if they want to include it into their Escalation lists.
I will also build 2 lists – one at 1750-pts, which is a common points-level for most tournaments currently, and another at 2000-pts to show how I would normally scale up my lists.
1750 Eldar
HQ: Autarch – Eldar Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God
Fast Attacks: Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter
Vyper – Scatter Lasers
Heavy Attacks: War Walker – 2x Brightlance
War Walker – 2x Brightlance
War Walker – 2x Scatters
Lord of War: Revenant Titan
Autarch: So why an Autarch? Why not a farseer? Imagine Guide/Prescience on the Revenant, Misfortune on the enemy or even Puppet Master on enemy titans. The answer is Reserves. The need to be able to manipulate reserves in this list is greater than the need for the farseer’s psychic powers. One of the main strategies of this list is denial and I do it with reserves. Keep the troops in reserves for as long as possible. If necessary against a good alpha-strike army, I can even keep my titan in reserves and then bring him in on Turn 2 on a 2+. War walkers can outflank on Turn 2 and I can bring in the crimson hunter then as well for a respectable beta-strike if necessary.
One thing to note is that his reserves manipulation ability works even if he himself is in reserves.
Jetbikes: Windrider Jetbikes are the fastest troops in the game that is not necrons. You need to run a lot of them for this type of list to work. They also provide volume of fire, especially in trying to ground Flying Monstrous Creatures.
Crimson Hunters: Crimson Hunters are the best anti-flyer weapons in this army. Control when they come in with your Autarch so you can strike at enemy flyers first.
Vypers: You need something on the board other than the Revenant and troops for the enemy to shoot at and the more units, the better. Also use them to help ground FMC’s and thin out hordes. Their mobility is a plus.
War Walkers: Good mobility due to outflanking. Good firepower. Another unit that can be used to ground FMC’s.
Overall Strategies:
This is basically a denial army. You want to reserve at least half your forces (not counting the Crimson Hunters, which must start in reserves).
Usually, at 1750, I will deploy as follows:
Deploy:
Revenant
Autarch
2x Troops
2x Vypers
Reserves:
3x Troops
2x War Walkers (usually outflanking)
However, if you are going 2nd and are concerned about your opponent’s alpha-strike (i.e. he is bringing titans with Destroyer weaponry as well or he has massed shooting), then you can put your Revenant in reserves (and perhaps your Autarch as well if you can’t hide him from opposing Destroyer weaponry) and deploy your war walkers instead.
The Revenant is the focal point of your offense. You need to keep him out of combat. With his 36” move, he can usually get away from most combats. However, there will be some armies, especially flyer armies, where this may prove more difficult. Moreover, you really don’t have enough units/models to bubble-wrap/screen-out your titan. Against these armies, positioning is very important. Try not to back yourself into a corner too early. You need to use all your resources to down units such as FMC’s so that your Revenant can take them out. Also, don’t get baited by your opponent into getting too close to his units. Even a unit of 10 tactical marines can potentially tie up your titan for a while. His offense is in his shooting and that is what you need to maximize. Combat is the worst place for him to be because every turn spent in combat is a turn that he is not shooting.
Flyer armies who prove to be the most difficult armies for Revdar (Eldar with Revenant) army to face. That is one of the main reasons why I chose to go MSU for this army. Against FMC’s, the more units you have, the greater your chances for grounding them. Against a FMC daemon build, his shooting is likely to be weak. If so, then don’t hesitate to deploy almost your entire army. The more guns you have on the ground, the better.
Against necron flyers, heldrakes, stormravens and even the Thunderhawk, you have got to play the position game. Against 1-2 flyers, you have a chance to shoot them down, but if your opponent brings massed flyers, drakes or the Thunderhawk, then you are going to have to result to denial and positioning. Against heldrakes, try to reserve all your troops if possible to deny them easy kills. Then use the mobility of your army to try to get into the rear arcs of the flyers. This will force your opponent into making a choice – either fly off the table or go into Hovering mode to try to kill them. But the moment his flyer hovers, your titan will kill it.
As for the Thunderhawk, he is arguably the single greatest problem for the Revenant. He is a flyer with Destroyer firepower and he will get the alpha-strike against your Revenant unless you put him in reserves. However, it isn’t as bad as it seems. With Eldar Titan Holo-fields (ETHF), you have a 50% chance to negate his shot as long as your titan moves. You do have to be careful when you move to the Thunderhawk’s “blind spots”. That is because it can always go into Hover mode and the passengers inside can disembark to assault your titan. The best chance against the Thunderhawk is just to focus the firepower of your entire army at it. The Thunderhawk has 2 weaknesses. Its rear armour is only AV10 and is susceptible to massed S6 shots. Also, super-heavy flyers cannot Evade, meaning it won’t have a jink save.
As with any game, don’t lose sight of the mission objectives. Your Revenant is the centerpiece of the army and truly a VIP-unit, but in truth, it is just another sacrificial unit. Your true game winners in any mission other than Purge the Alien are your jetbike troops. Never lose sight of that. If you have to, don’t hesitate to sacrifice your titan in order to save your troops, especially when it comes down to the late game (i.e. Turns 4/5). Use him as a fire magnet. Even assault the enemy if you have to, especially if you can secure the win by doing so (and assuming you don’t have the game “in the bag” yet).
How to Play against the Eldar? What is the best way to play against a deathstar army? Yes, Eldar in Escalation is a Deathstar army, with the Revenant being the Deathstar unit. So what is the best way to beat a deathstar army? There really are 2 ways:
Kill the deathstar itself. This will not be easy. You either have to have a huge amount of firepower (i.e. shooty MSU) or a very fast army if you are going for assault (i.e. FMC daemons). In many cases, it is also paramount that you be able to go first as well. Just to sit there and even take one round of shooting from the Revenant can be devastating. Trust me, you don’t want any of that.
Also, be aware that killing the titan won’t necessarily win you the game, especially when commandeered by a savvy player. All it does is buy time for his jetbike troops to snatch the objectives near the end of the game and by that time, your army will be too depleted to do anything about it.
Kill the support units. This is the strategy I prefer. If I feel that I have a reasonable shot at taking out his titan, then I will go for it. Otherwise, it is almost always a better idea to go after the supporting units instead, especially his scoring units. Now with jetbike troops, this is actually easier said than done. It is the jetbike troops whom makes the army so hard to deal with, especially when the elder player goes with the strategy of denial.
While going after the support units may be tough, going after the titan is actually harder. Why? Because then you have to go after both the titan and the scoring troops. After battling it out with the Revenant, in most cases, you won’t have much gas left in the tank to deal with the super-fast bikes. You still need to find a way to stop them from grabbing objectives or from contesting your objectives.
Tie up his titan. Again, this is not an easy task. You need a really fast and durable unit in order to do this, but if you can someone manage to do so, then you can focus on the rest of the eldar army much, much easier without a titan shooting down your army. Fast units to use include daemon and tyranid FMC’s or units in flying transports like the stormraven and similar such flying assault vehicles.
If you don’t have fast units such as those, then you’re going to have to 1) have a lot of units advancing, hoping that 1 unit may be able to catch the titan or 2) try to bait him into coming into assault range of one of your units. Of course you better hope that the Revenant player prioritizes the wrong target in order to give you the opportunity to catch him.
Psychic powers, especially Puppet Master, can be very useful against a Revdar army. Units such as Be’lakor is especially dangerous to an eldar player. Puppet Master and Be’lakor is actually one of the reasons why I’ve designed my Eldar list as a MSU list. This way, the damage caused from a puppet mastered Revenant is minimal due to the amount of redundancy in the list.
Flyer armies. Revdar has a tough time against massed flyers/FMC’s due to the lack of anti-air, skyfire units in their lists normally. While the amount of shooting I have in my Revdar list should be able to ground a FMC each turn, it will still have problems dealing with a FMC list running 4-5 FMC’s and possibly a heldrake as well.
Massed flyers is another problem as well. The amount of shooting in my Revdar list is respectable, but S6 isn’t very reliable against AV11/12 flyers. The Necron Airforce will especially give the Revenant major problems. They are also probably the only army along with triple heldrake Chaos that can efficiently go after eldar troops.
I can also see a Thunderhawk list with 2-3 stormravens and/or stormtalons being a problematic build for Revdar as well. AV12 flyers are a huge weakness of Revdar and the most they can do is to try to position themselves away from the flight path of these flyers.
Flyer armies, however, need to make sure they have a decent ground presence as well. Otherwise, if they are not careful and emphasize too much on their flyers, they just may end up getting tabled on Turn 1.
The Future of Escalation Escalation is a major change to the world of 40K. It will take some time to get used to. Escalation may turn some people away, but I think it can be a lot of fun for those who stick around and give it a chance. It is another “flavor” of 40K and adds variety to the game. At the same time, it will discourage some of the variety in the game as well. For the time being, I see Escalation used more for competitive gaming just because most of the casual players just won’t have the tools to deal with most of the titans. But give it some time and I think the Escalation scenery will change. As more and more players get exposed to titans, you will see a shift from more competitive at first, to more mainstream over time. After all, who wouldn’t want to own a titan? They are big and powerful, the models are cool as heck and they make a great centerpiece to any army aesthetically. That should be incentive enough for both the gamers and the modelers to start accepting titans into regular 40K. Now, you can build it, paint it and use it in your games as well.
Against your Eldar list, IG would shine. Specifically, air-cavalry IG. Three vendettas coming in (with potential reserves manipulation from an Inquisitor or other psyker). In fact, perhaps the deadliest combo could be a helldrake/vendetta list.
However, back to just IG. You can stuff 9 vendettas and a Valkyrie into a 1750 point list. considering all of the lascannon shots, the titan is going down rather quickly. Nine LC shots per squadron isn't something to scoff at, and that will ruin AV12, no matter what pseudo-invuln save it has. Of course, nine flyers would be hard to maneuver, which is why you need some form of reserves control.
I was under the impression that there is no such thing as escalation games per say, rather that the escalation suppliment is freely available to use in any game of 40k.
Tournaments are already banning this stuff though, so you'll only ever have to play against these super heavies when you agree to in friendly games, in most cases where both players are happy to and are capable of fielding these escalation units.
My strategy of pretending this expansion never came out seems to be doing fine.
Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.
McNinja wrote: Against your Eldar list, IG would shine. Specifically, air-cavalry IG. Three vendettas coming in (with potential reserves manipulation from an Inquisitor or other psyker). In fact, perhaps the deadliest combo could be a helldrake/vendetta list.
However, back to just IG. You can stuff 9 vendettas and a Valkyrie into a 1750 point list. considering all of the lascannon shots, the titan is going down rather quickly. Nine LC shots per squadron isn't something to scoff at, and that will ruin AV12, no matter what pseudo-invuln save it has. Of course, nine flyers would be hard to maneuver, which is why you need some form of reserves control.
Yeah, flyer-heavy IG has a shot against Revenant Eldar (or as I call them, Revdar). Just make sure you have enough boots on the ground (and probably hiding) on Turn 1 such that he can't table you before then.
Just a little mathhammer exercise, with 9 vendettas vs the Revenant. Assuming he moves for the 4+ and that all vendettas can shoot:
27x TL-shots x 3/4 hits x (1/6 glance + 1/2 pen) x 1/2 save = 5x pens + 1.75x glances = 6.75 HP's
You then roll on the damage charts for pens: 5x pens x 1/3 x 1.5 average HP of damage = 2.5 HP's
So total damage = 6.75 + 2.5 = 9.25 HP
So yes, if you can bring all 9 vendettas' guns to bear against the revenant, then you can take it down in 1 or 2 turns at most.
Against a 9-vendetta list, the Revdar player is going to have to play the denial game. Put his titan in reserves and try to control when he comes in with the Autarch. Ideally, you'd want it to come in after most of the vendettas have come in already and then go after the ground targets. Move the titan into the '6' of the vendettas if possible or at least out of some of their flight paths, thus forcing them to hover or fly off the table. Also, make use of any tall terrain piece in order to get the 4+ cover as well as the Titan Holo-field saves.
Mike712 wrote: I was under the impression that there is no such thing as escalation games per say, rather that the escalation suppliment is freely available to use in any game of 40k.
Tournaments are already banning this stuff though, so you'll only ever have to play against these super heavies when you agree to in friendly games, in most cases where both players are happy to and are capable of fielding these escalation units.
My tactica goes with the assumption that you ask your opponent if he wants to play against Escalation units and that he doesn't say, "no, I'll pass." Yeah, you can freely use titans in games of 40K now, but your opponent can also freely choose not to play against them.
Orock wrote: My strategy of pretending this expansion never came out seems to be doing fine.
Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.
Lol. If GW did something like that, it'll show that they actually cared.
I also find it highly ironic and highly humorous that they will or can take action against you for not using their products. That'll be like suing someone for buying their models but not using/following the instruction manuels on how to assemble it. Hey, I'm suing you for your conversion because it doesn't follow my manuel!
Thanks Jy2 for getting the ball rolling on absorbing this knowledge into the net-mind.
I like your addition of the list at the end. Not even for the purposes of a guide on what to put into such a list but as a guide to what such a list will look like and what you will need to tackle it.
I am looking forward to your necron guide because I think you are 100% right in they will probably be the most flexible and balanced Escalation build.
sorely because of the fact of all the fliew armies doing so much damage, i would take max crimson hunters. 3 in lower than 2000, 4-5 in 2000+. Other than that, your list is great.
ansacs wrote: Thanks Jy2 for getting the ball rolling on absorbing this knowledge into the net-mind.
I like your addition of the list at the end. Not even for the purposes of a guide on what to put into such a list but as a guide to what such a list will look like and what you will need to tackle it.
I am looking forward to your necron guide because I think you are 100% right in they will probably be the most flexible and balanced Escalation build.
You're welcome.
Currently, there is a backlash with GW especially with regards to allowing titans combined with all the new stuff coming out. My concern is the number of players that may leave the game because of this. Thus, my goal here is to educate the people, both in terms of how to play Escalation and how to play against. I don't expect my lists to be the final say in how Escalation lists should look like, and even I can't account for all the new stuff coming out. But I hope it can provide a template for how a balanced Escalation list will look like. As for people playing against titans, it should give them a glimpse of what to expect and they would have to prepare for.
My necron tactica should be a good one, and I am going to start it off with a bang. Yes, I will use it (and show how to use it) against Eldar + Revenant in a Frontline Gaming videorep and probably against the man himself, Reece!
ninjafiredragon wrote: sorely because of the fact of all the fliew armies doing so much damage, i would take max crimson hunters. 3 in lower than 2000, 4-5 in 2000+. Other than that, your list is great.
I try not to overdo it with too many flyers because that would take away too much of my non-titan ground presence. You need a solid ground presence in order to play against titans. At 1750, if you want to run 2 flyers (I wouldn't recommend running 3), you're most likely going to have to drop 1 vyper, 1 war walker and 1 troop as well. That is a lot to give up. But I wouldn't mind at 2K. I think at 2K, you can run the titan, 3 flyers and still have a decent ground presence.
Of course, that may all change if you decide to bring in some fortifications from the Stronghold supplement.
Yeah I am a little worried about the community with the addition of escalation. With seerstar/screamer star you have to put a lot of elements into your list and purposely try to make those units like they are. With a revenant you just put one in and it ROFL stomps people without mercy. It is like all the bad effects of combo hammer without any combining. Without easy access to ideas on how to counter them a number of people may leave the game instead of take the loses to learn.
I will be looking forward to your batrep. I agree with you that the necron post escalation dex seems like the most balanced and flexible. Should be a good game.
McNinja wrote: Against your Eldar list, IG would shine. Specifically, air-cavalry IG. Three vendettas coming in (with potential reserves manipulation from an Inquisitor or other psyker). In fact, perhaps the deadliest combo could be a helldrake/vendetta list.
However, back to just IG. You can stuff 9 vendettas and a Valkyrie into a 1750 point list. considering all of the lascannon shots, the titan is going down rather quickly. Nine LC shots per squadron isn't something to scoff at, and that will ruin AV12, no matter what pseudo-invuln save it has. Of course, nine flyers would be hard to maneuver, which is why you need some form of reserves control.
Unless you are playing EDT, that kind of list will be tabled first turn harder than Necron Air Force.
Wondering: if Puppet Master is going to be so useful against Titans, would it be time to consider pulling Anrakyr the Traveler and his Mind in the Machine ability out of retirement and adding him to Necron Escalation lists?
skoffs wrote: Wondering: if Puppet Master is going to be so useful against Titans, would it be time to consider pulling Anrakyr the Traveler and his Mind in the Machine ability out of retirement and adding him to Necron Escalation lists?
jy2 Awesome review! I am glad to see you gave your ideas on how to best combat they army aswell, do you think we will see a dark eldar version of this? (heard through the grapevine DE can take a revenat titan aswell)
What other armies do you have plans to do a escalation review on next? I can see orks being another major play.
Side note: escalation is all good if they will just take D weapons out or least make them st10 ap1
After going through the Stronghold Assault supplement, I agree that the Void Shield Generator would be a good investment for an Escalation Army. Therefore, I am revising my lists to incorporate the VS Generator into it:
1750 Eldar
HQ: Autarch – Eldar Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God
However, to me the real excitement in these new releases is the Void Shield Generator. Now THAT is a item with potential.
Yeah, they're pretty good. After going through the supplement, I've decided to add it to my lists above.
ansacs wrote: Yeah I am a little worried about the community with the addition of escalation. With seerstar/screamer star you have to put a lot of elements into your list and purposely try to make those units like they are. With a revenant you just put one in and it ROFL stomps people without mercy. It is like all the bad effects of combo hammer without any combining. Without easy access to ideas on how to counter them a number of people may leave the game instead of take the loses to learn.
I will be looking forward to your batrep. I agree with you that the necron post escalation dex seems like the most balanced and flexible. Should be a good game.
What you're probably going to find is that the people without titans are probably going to decline to play against those with. Most tournaments are not going to allow Escalation units, at least not initially. And when they finally do, those who don't want to play against titans will just not go to those tournaments.
You'll find some people may get mad when they do get blind-sided by a player with titans, but that's going to be in the earlier stages of Escalation. That's when you'll see the most people decide to leave the game. After Escalation does get "broken in", however, it won't be too bad. It'll take time, but people will eventually accept it or just not play against it.
Stop trying to make 'Revdar' happen. It's not going to happen
LOL! Good one.
Costs and availability of the Revenant will probably keep most people away initially, but after FW ramps up production (if they haven't done so already), you're going to see Revdar happen whether we like it or not.
skoffs wrote: Wondering: if Puppet Master is going to be so useful against Titans, would it be time to consider pulling Anrakyr the Traveler and his Mind in the Machine ability out of retirement and adding him to Necron Escalation lists?
Sure, but his power isn't a sure thing. He's actually got to hit with BS4 first and then afterwards, you can basically write him off.
Also, going MSU with Revdar will mitigate the effects of Puppet Master and other similar type effects. In other words, they can survive.
Solosam47 wrote: jy2 Awesome review! I am glad to see you gave your ideas on how to best combat they army aswell, do you think we will see a dark eldar version of this? (heard through the grapevine DE can take a revenat titan aswell)
What other armies do you have plans to do a escalation review on next? I can see orks being another major play.
Side note: escalation is all good if they will just take D weapons out or least make them st10 ap1
Sure. I actually think DE will be very strong in Escalation. Their army was made for low-points games anyways and they do MSU like nobody's business. The only they really need to do is to shore up their AA or they will still get raped by necrons.
Coming up next....Necrons! After that, probably Space Marines, Orks, IG or DE. Not sure yet. Tyranids will probably be last due to the new tyranid codex coming out.
Nice. Actually I think that stronghold assault is a nice enabler supplement which hugely increases the number and types of builds possible.
I am not so much worried about revenant's ruining the game. More indulgent parents buying little Timmy a Transcendent C'Tan for Christmas and little Timmy ROFL stomping his friends without really meaning to do so. At that level of play Timmy probably will have to drop from 1850 pts games to 1000 pts games to not ROFL stomp people and his friends probably can't "Escalate" easily. I feel that the "entry" level to the game is becoming harder and harder, which is bad for continual survival of 40k. Per point the Transcendent C'Tan is a much better value than necron warriors (about 4x the value). And quicker to assemble...
I'm disappointed that these strategies don't include a void shield network fortification to protect the titan with a re-rollable 3+ cover save (don't forget your psyker) to stack with its 4+ "you missed me" ability and give you a 95% chance of avoiding a hit, along with multiple AV 12 void shields to destroy before you even get to the titan. IMO the void shields are pretty much mandatory when you expect a titan vs. titan fight.
ansacs wrote: Nice. Actually I think that stronghold assault is a nice enabler supplement which hugely increases the number and types of builds possible.
I am not so much worried about revenant's ruining the game. More indulgent parents buying little Timmy a Transcendent C'Tan for Christmas and little Timmy ROFL stomping his friends without really meaning to do so. At that level of play Timmy probably will have to drop from 1850 pts games to 1000 pts games to not ROFL stomp people and his friends probably can't "Escalate" easily. I feel that the "entry" level to the game is becoming harder and harder, which is bad for continual survival of 40k. Per point the Transcendent C'Tan is a much better value than necron warriors (about 4x the value). And quicker to assemble...
Yeah, that could be a problem, especially when introducing more advance and powerful units into regular play with the more casual players. It can make for a discouragingly bad experience for those who don't know what they are getting into.
Peregrine wrote: I'm disappointed that these strategies don't include a void shield network fortification to protect the titan with a re-rollable 3+ cover save (don't forget your psyker) to stack with its 4+ "you missed me" ability and give you a 95% chance of avoiding a hit, along with multiple AV 12 void shields to destroy before you even get to the titan. IMO the void shields are pretty much mandatory when you expect a titan vs. titan fight.
That is not a good strategy. It just makes the list more unbalanced and thus, weaker.
You are spending 340-pts to buff up your already hard-to-kill titan. The good players are already going to ignore him anyways, and now they only have to deal with 510-pts of your 1750 army. And you've done nothing to address the problem that is FMC daemons.
I'm sorry, but to me, some of these combos are nothing but gimmicks. Yes, you make it nearly impossible to kill the titan. However, you are also encouraging your opponent to deal with the rest of the army instead and to me, that is not a good thing. I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.
jy2 wrote: I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.
The problem is that without that defense if your opponent gets the first shot with their Revenant/Warhound (and you know Warhounds are coming soon) you can just put your titan back in its box and not even bother to play the game. The rest of your list isn't going to get the job done alone, so you might as well go all-in on keeping your one relevant unit on the table.
Also:
However, if you are going 2nd and are concerned about your opponent’s alpha-strike (i.e. he is bringing titans with Destroyer weaponry as well or he has massed shooting), then you can put your Revenant in reserves (and perhaps your Autarch as well if you can’t hide him from opposing Destroyer weaponry) and deploy your war walkers instead.
This is suicide. Deploy a couple war walkers against a shooting army and you're tabled on turn 1. Unless you're putting your precious troops out there to die you have a total of four AV 10 models keeping you from losing the game.
I'm sorry, but to me, some of these combos are nothing but gimmicks. Yes, you make it nearly impossible to kill the titan. However, you are also encouraging your opponent to deal with the rest of the army instead and to me, that is not a good thing. I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.
Yeah, but JY2, the only way I know how to setup my forces is in a perfect 10" diameter circle. Your Titan is INSTANT WIN!!!!!! What ever is a boy to do?
Mike712 wrote: I was under the impression that there is no such thing as escalation games per say, rather that the escalation suppliment is freely available to use in any game of 40k.
Tournaments are already banning this stuff though, so you'll only ever have to play against these super heavies when you agree to in friendly games, in most cases where both players are happy to and are capable of fielding these escalation units.
My tactica goes with the assumption that you ask your opponent if he wants to play against Escalation units and that he doesn't say, "no, I'll pass." Yeah, you can freely use titans in games of 40K now, but your opponent can also freely choose not to play against them.
Orock wrote: My strategy of pretending this expansion never came out seems to be doing fine.
Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.
Lol. If GW did something like that, it'll show that they actually cared.
I also find it highly ironic and highly humorous that they will or can take action against you for not using their products. That'll be like suing someone for buying their models but not using/following the instruction manuels on how to assemble it. Hey, I'm suing you for your conversion because it doesn't follow my manuel!
sadly they could still send the letter, and claim defamation, claiming that the tournament is misrepresenting how the game is actually run, and weasel in something about costing them revenue for people who now wont buy their overpriced huge models because someone banned them.
Legal feet or not, all they have to do is keep it in court till the event passes, and they have won. Its like companies who have to pay out millions in restitution to 80 year olds, and keep them in court hopeing they die of old age before they have to fork it over.
Orock wrote: Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.
Sorry, but this is just paranoid delusions on the level as the guy standing on the corner screaming about how the world is going to end. There is absolutely no way that GW is going to send C&D letters to anyone over banning units, and even if they were stupid enough to try it would be laughed out of court.
jy2 wrote: I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.
The problem is that without that defense if your opponent gets the first shot with their Revenant/Warhound (and you know Warhounds are coming soon) you can just put your titan back in its box and not even bother to play the game. The rest of your list isn't going to get the job done alone, so you might as well go all-in on keeping your one relevant unit on the table.
Also:
However, if you are going 2nd and are concerned about your opponent’s alpha-strike (i.e. he is bringing titans with Destroyer weaponry as well or he has massed shooting), then you can put your Revenant in reserves (and perhaps your Autarch as well if you can’t hide him from opposing Destroyer weaponry) and deploy your war walkers instead.
This is suicide. Deploy a couple war walkers against a shooting army and you're tabled on turn 1. Unless you're putting your precious troops out there to die you have a total of four AV 10 models keeping you from losing the game.
Well, I've revised my list to include the Void Shield Generator. That should help some, though it's not totally fool-proof. Otherwise, if the enemy alpha strike is too strong, then you've got no choice but to reserve your titan.
The rest of the army is built to survive. They may be small and fragile, but I made them small so that it is easier for them to hide behind terrain. You can also hide 1 or maybe even 2 units behind the Void Shield Generator, which is BLOS terrain, in a terrain-lite table. Also, you can deploy the Autarch if you need to. He is ultra-resilient to any shooting that does not ignore cover thanks to the Mantle.
So with a titan, the void shield generator and most of your MSU units deployed (and hiding), chances are that your opponent won't be able to take out your titan or table you on T1, at least not at 1750.
I'm sorry, but to me, some of these combos are nothing but gimmicks. Yes, you make it nearly impossible to kill the titan. However, you are also encouraging your opponent to deal with the rest of the army instead and to me, that is not a good thing. I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.
Yeah, but JY2, the only way I know how to setup my forces is in a perfect 10" diameter circle. Your Titan is INSTANT WIN!!!!!! What ever is a boy to do?
Dunno. Don't setup in a perfect 10" diameter circle?
Orock wrote: sadly they could still send the letter, and claim defamation, claiming that the tournament is misrepresenting how the game is actually run, and weasel in something about costing them revenue for people who now wont buy their overpriced huge models because someone banned them.
Legal feet or not, all they have to do is keep it in court till the event passes, and they have won. Its like companies who have to pay out millions in restitution to 80 year olds, and keep them in court hopeing they die of old age before they have to fork it over.
I guess I'll leave the legalese to the legal people.
It just strikes me as very bone-headed that GW would do something like that, telling 100's of their customers that they can't play in tournaments. That would be very bad for their company image as well as hurtful to their bottom-lines.
Well, Reavers were just added in the FW update and Eldar got their silly broken tanks too. If you needed any reason not to use Escalation, that's about as good as it gets. Oh, and the Warhound was also readded, so now you can get AV14 for your 4 Str D blast spewer and spend less points.
Yeah, I vote we don't listen to the FW stuff unless you want to play IG+warhound titans:the game.
EDIT: Actually, they added the Vampire Hunter too, so it'll still be 100% Eldar, 100% of the time.
Warhounds don´t have holo fields or can move 36" in a turn. A lascannon has the same chance of causing at least 1 HP damage on the eldar titan and a warhound (of course better chance of causing more HP´s). Gravguns and melta in meltarange are better against the warhound.
Eyjio wrote: Well, Reavers were just added in the FW update and Eldar got their silly broken tanks too. If you needed any reason not to use Escalation, that's about as good as it gets. Oh, and the Warhound was also readded, so now you can get AV14 for your 4 Str D blast spewer and spend less points.
Yeah, I vote we don't listen to the FW stuff unless you want to play IG+warhound titans:the game.
EDIT: Actually, they added the Vampire Hunter too, so it'll still be 100% Eldar, 100% of the time.
Wow, so soon? And a Reaver as well? I expected the Warhound, but a Reaver?!?
It isn't so bad, however. The Reaver is about 1450 or so. He is not viable in a 1750 game. He is barely viable at 2K. Just send FMC daemons against the reaver and the Reaver-army has got practically no chance.
Or send a stormraven/thunderhawk his way. Then once, they get close enough, disembark and assault to tie it up for the rest of the game.
BTW, do you have a link to the FW updates? Please share with all the readers.
Illumini wrote: Warhounds don´t have holo fields or can move 36" in a turn. A lascannon has the same chance of causing at least 1 HP damage on the eldar titan and a warhound (of course better chance of causing more HP´s). Gravguns and melta in meltarange are better against the warhound.
Can´t wait to actually test escalation
The warhound does have AV14 which does make him more resilient vs S7/8 guns.
Illumini wrote: Warhounds don´t have holo fields or can move 36" in a turn. A lascannon has the same chance of causing at least 1 HP damage on the eldar titan and a warhound (of course better chance of causing more HP´s). Gravguns and melta in meltarange are better against the warhound.
Can´t wait to actually test escalation
They do have 2 void shields, cost 180 points less and come in an army with the best bubblewrap/anti-air in the entire game though, so there's that. It'll just be the amazing war of "who goes first".
But yeah, as I say, Vampire Hunter is pretty dumb too. TL pulsar on an AV11 flyer with 12 HP and eldar titan holofields, all for 730 points? That's really stupid.
Eyjio wrote: Well, Reavers were just added in the FW update and Eldar got their silly broken tanks too. If you needed any reason not to use Escalation, that's about as good as it gets. Oh, and the Warhound was also readded, so now you can get AV14 for your 4 Str D blast spewer and spend less points.
Yeah, I vote we don't listen to the FW stuff unless you want to play IG+warhound titans:the game.
EDIT: Actually, they added the Vampire Hunter too, so it'll still be 100% Eldar, 100% of the time.
Wow, so soon? And a Reaver as well? I expected the Warhound, but a Reaver?!?
It isn't so bad, however. The Reaver is about 1450 or so. He is not viable in a 1750 game. He is barely viable at 2K. Just send FMC daemons against the reaver and the Reaver-army has got practically no chance.
Or send a stormraven/thunderhawk his way. Then once, they get close enough, disembark and assault to tie it up for the rest of the game.
BTW, do you have a link to the FW updates? Please share with all the readers.
Illumini wrote: Warhounds don´t have holo fields or can move 36" in a turn. A lascannon has the same chance of causing at least 1 HP damage on the eldar titan and a warhound (of course better chance of causing more HP´s). Gravguns and melta in meltarange are better against the warhound.
Can´t wait to actually test escalation
The warhound does have AV14 which does make him more resilient vs S7/8 guns.
jy2, is this going to throw off your planned tactica? Is this one still valid, even?
I don't see why it would. The only change might be getting the Pulsar flyer into the game instead of the Revenant. Since the playing field is slightly more even now (since now imperial armies can take warhounds), it makes everything slightly better. Still, if I were a TO I would not allow D-weapons into my tournament.
jy2, is this going to throw off your planned tactica? Is this one still valid, even?
No, it won't and yes, my lists are still valid (especially the one with the Void Shield Generator). The Revenant is still arguably one of the best titans at 2K or less.
jy2, is this going to throw off your planned tactica? Is this one still valid, even?
I don't see why it would. The only change might be getting the Pulsar flyer into the game instead of the Revenant. Since the playing field is slightly more even now (since now imperial armies can take warhounds), it makes everything slightly better. Still, if I were a TO I would not allow D-weapons into my tournament.
The elder flyer is good, but even its got its drawbacks. Firstly, it has to start off in Reserves, and if you don't have an Autarch in your army, there's a chance it may come in later. Secondly, as with all flyers, you can predict its flight paths and take advantage of that if you've got the mobility. Lastly, it's got to fly off the board eventually as it runs out of space to maneuver/targets to shoot. That means there's most likely going to be at least 2 turns when it can't fire.
But you know what it's biggest flaw is? Its twin-linked pulsars are blasts and still cannot fire at flyers/FMC's.
This may be crazy talk, but I think the D on the revenant is scarier than the D on the phantom. I mean, the revenant's D can slap each unit twice if it splits targets, but the phantom can only hit a unit once with his D.
The Phantom does come with Anti-Air though, so that's something right there. It's not D though.
I havent seen the escalation book yet but if someone wants to bring a titan to my game I will bump the points limit to 3000pts and stick a warlord on my board edge laughting. Nothing says die more than a vortex missile!
Haha thats a relief lol.
:-/ so only the units in the book can be taken as lords of war? Am not impressed o well. It will have to be melta/demo vets in vendettas then. Metla bombs all around :-)
CthuluIsSpy wrote: This may be crazy talk, but I think the D on the revenant is scarier than the D on the phantom. I mean, the revenant's D can slap each unit twice if it splits targets, but the phantom can only hit a unit once with his D.
The Phantom does come with Anti-Air though, so that's something right there. It's not D though.
What do you mean? The Phantom has 8 D shots, 4 from each gun.
Painnen wrote: Can't it start on the stronghold sky pad for like 10pts or something???
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can't it start on the stronghold sky pad for like 10pts or something???
Any titan can start on a skypad as long as it can fit.
Problem is, do you want the skypad or the Void Shield Generator? I'm not sure you can take more than 1 fortification in a single-FOC game.
Useless Sidekick wrote: When did they put the points up for that? :-/ I thought they were 2500pt?
Gah, sorry. I was thinking of the Emperor Battle Titan. Yeah, the Warlord is around 2.5k
Now question is...do you have a model? Speaking of models, wouldn't be a bit more inconvenient to lug a super heavy to a FLGS now? I think Transcendent C'tan might be the most convenient to transport.
To answer Jy2's question, no, oddly enough, they are not. I looked for them as well, and I could only find the entries for Warhound and Reaver. In other words, models that already exist.
I'm just going to go ahead and blame Kirby for that...
Yeah, my mistake about the phantom. I can't believe I keep missing the entry for the Phantom Pulsar like that >.<
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568137.page This is a little list I put together for the phantom. It's hard to know whether or not it's worth the extra points but I'm guessing the extra durability and skyfire kind of make up for it. You can still fit ten msus with it at 3k if you're frugal. I'm intrigued to see the mathhammer on 24 hull points with titan holo fields and 13/13/11 armour. If not for being on my phone I'd probably have a go.
thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568137.page
This is a little list I put together for the phantom. It's hard to know whether or not it's worth the extra points but I'm guessing the extra durability and skyfire kind of make up for it. You can still fit ten msus with it at 3k if you're frugal. I'm intrigued to see the mathhammer on 24 hull points with titan holo fields and 13/13/11 armour. If not for being on my phone I'd probably have a go.
The Phantom Titan just isn't a viable unit in normal 40K. It is just too unbalancing. The games will go like this - it will destroy 80% of the armies that it goes up against but will lose miserably to the 20% that counters it, namely, flyer/FMC builds.
Your 3K build with the Phantom has no answers to FMC builds whatsoever. It is almost an auto-lose against FMC daemons or even tyranids with the Harridan.
Stormravens and the thunderhawk can take it out of commission quickly with an assault from the units within.
Also, at 3K, I'd bring a Void Rely Network with 3 Void Shield Generators. For 340-pts, that's 9 void shields that it generates. That's enough to stuff the 8 D-shots that the Phantom brings.
Make no mistake, the Phantom is a devastating titan. However, it needs adequate support for it to work properly. 500-pts is just not enough units to support the Phantom.
I have started to build one the body is done just needs the details putting on it and I have started on the legs. Am trying to work out which weapons and how to make them :-) its my first scratch build (straight in at the deep end). The head is going to be a nightmare lol.
Haha you are right aboot the transport tho I am making it so it can come apart so that wont be too much of a problem.
Actually in some ways it helps to balance out the OP in the escalation. As it was the Eldar and Necrons were head and shoulders above the rest. Now it is just all titans and GMC that are head and shoulders above almost everything not a LoW.
The LoW daemons are really awesome models btw. I don't mind getting pwned by that beauty.
The pylon isn't that good because it doesn't have a blast on the D weapon. It will shine if the opponent brings a super-heavy since you can eat through most things quite easily, and is also decent against enemy tanks as long as it does not die too quickly, but against something like horde Orks, it simply isn't worth the points. Immobility makes it easy to exploit once it lands as well. It's not bad by any means, but there are better ways to drop 400ish points.
Speaking of the FW lords of war update, words cannot describe how much I, upon seeing that a Chaos Tunderhawk can be fielded by servants of decay armies, wanted to charge a horde of zombies out of the thunderhawks assault ram, straight into combat with a nasty Revenant!
jy2, in a hypothetical scenario where SD weapons are banned, what do you think the strongest super-heavy or gargantuan is?
Valek wrote: tbh, witht that add on of forgeworld the pylon is one of the best in the game, and it will kill a revenant upon entry, only costs 400ish points either
I wish. On average it hits twice, one of those bounces off the holofields and the other does ~4 HP. It's not bad (IMO it should be the model of D weapons - single shots, no blast) but it's far shy of killing any Super Heavy in 1 shot. Devastating in actual Apocalypse when you take 3 or 4 though.
Useless Sidekick wrote: I have started to build one the body is done just needs the details putting on it and I have started on the legs. Am trying to work out which weapons and how to make them :-) its my first scratch build (straight in at the deep end). The head is going to be a nightmare lol.
Haha you are right aboot the transport tho I am making it so it can come apart so that wont be too much of a problem.
Nice. Would love to see the it when you're done. Unfortunately, I'm not much of a builder than I am a buyer. Lol.
Actually in some ways it helps to balance out the OP in the escalation. As it was the Eldar and Necrons were head and shoulders above the rest. Now it is just all titans and GMC that are head and shoulders above almost everything not a LoW.
The LoW daemons are really awesome models btw. I don't mind getting pwned by that beauty.
Spoiler:
Wow, that sure was quick. Highly uncharacteristic of GW. I'm not sure what all the rush is but, at least now every army will have a fighting chance. That is also going to make my next tacticas much more interesting with all the choices available out there right now.
Yeah, I love the LoW daemons. I've got a few myself (with 1 count-as).
Valek wrote: tbh, witht that add on of forgeworld the pylon is one of the best in the game, and it will kill a revenant upon entry, only costs 400ish points either
For its price, it's not bad. It's better when dealing with elite and flyer armies - armies with big, flying and/or expensive units - but it's drawback is when it goes up against horde armies.
Now that Void Shields will be a common part of the game, it's highly unlikely to kill a Revenant in 1 turn.
thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote: The pylon isn't that good because it doesn't have a blast on the D weapon. It will shine if the opponent brings a super-heavy since you can eat through most things quite easily, and is also decent against enemy tanks as long as it does not die too quickly, but against something like horde Orks, it simply isn't worth the points. Immobility makes it easy to exploit once it lands as well. It's not bad by any means, but there are better ways to drop 400ish points.
Speaking of the FW lords of war update, words cannot describe how much I, upon seeing that a Chaos Tunderhawk can be fielded by servants of decay armies, wanted to charge a horde of zombies out of the thunderhawks assault ram, straight into combat with a nasty Revenant!
jy2, in a hypothetical scenario where SD weapons are banned, what do you think the strongest super-heavy or gargantuan is?
3 units will/can potentially dominate: the Hierophant Bio-titan, An'ggrath (the FW Bloodthirster) and Aetos (the FW Lord of Change). Without D weapons, these Gargantuans will be the nastiest creatures around.
Fortunately, they are vulnerable to Instant Death (causes D3 Wounds). That means a unit of paladins with mostly hammers can actually kill one of these big beasties.
Jy2 have you looked at the cobra CWESH (IA: Apoc 2013) yet? That beauty should have some major effect on your SH lists from here on.
It is the anti SH meta in and of itself. It is also pretty good against everything else. Perhaps not as not versatile in its abilities as a revenant but when you expect a bunch of void shields, GMC, and SH then it sure is nasty.
Yeah, the Cobra is sweet - both the model and the rules. Imagine a 10" D blast that doesn't need LOS and can be twin-linked as well. There is just no hiding from this beast!
It's a great SH for those who don't want to abuse the game with the Revenant. But the Cobra (or Scorpion) compared to the Revenant is like a Shadowsword compared to a Warhound. If you want to have a little mercy to your opponent, you take the Cobra. If you don't, take the Revenant.
BTW, I have the Cobra and it rocks!
With the Cobra, I'd probably run a list like this at 1750:
Cobra - Scatter Lasers (it doesn't even need Guide or Prescience with Scatter Lasers! Lol.)
Autarch - Jetbike, Fusion, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God
Stop trying to make 'Revdar' happen. It's not going to happen
LOL! Good one.
Costs and availability of the Revenant will probably keep most people away initially, but after FW ramps up production (if they haven't done so already), you're going to see Revdar happen whether we like it or not.
I believe he meant the term 'revdar'. He doesnt think its a good term.
The Lynx for 320 points outclasses the Scorpion, Cobra and Revenant point by point. I think that unless specifically trying to cram in as a big of a Lord of War for the single slot as the points limit reasonably allows, the Lynx gives by far the most damage and survivability for the buck. Usually just being extremely points efficient throughout your army list is the surest way to a tournament victory. What the Lord of War slot can give you tactically is a strength D weapon that can easily remove threats that no other weapon type can remove, but I don't see the point in overspending and making your army more and more of a gimmick that loses occasionally in the game of rock, paper & scissors.
Apparently in England, GW has decided to include escalation into next month's Throne of Skulls ( with wide spread dismay of course). Although considering it's a 1500 point tournament most of the Es. book simply won't be viable enough at that points level.
Anyway to my main point, in terms of a Be'lakor counter, how useful would grey knights be (as eldar allies)? I'm thinking of course of the aegis on a dreadnought, but is there anything else i could use block puppet master?
ansacs wrote: Well it is certainly better than Eldant
I am thinking you and reece need to try a game of cobra vs revenant. See if the cobra based list can be a good anti titan meta list.
Are we going to get to see more Jy2 GMC batreps with those great looking daemons. That would be fantastic.
I guess if there's an opponent, I can. Right now, not a whole lot of people in our area have titans yet so even finding people wanting to play Escalation won't be easy.
However, ImotekhTheStormlord wants to take me up on my challenge. Perhaps I'll run daemons against him rather than my necrons.
Or I could just play a test game against myself. I've got quite a few titans.
As for Reece's Revenant, I don't think he'll be playing that anytime soon. He's not really too into running the Revenant.
Therion wrote: The Lynx for 320 points outclasses the Scorpion, Cobra and Revenant point by point. I think that unless specifically trying to cram in as a big of a Lord of War for the single slot as the points limit reasonably allows, the Lynx gives by far the most damage and survivability for the buck. Usually just being extremely points efficient throughout your army list is the surest way to a tournament victory. What the Lord of War slot can give you tactically is a strength D weapon that can easily remove threats that no other weapon type can remove, but I don't see the point in overspending and making your army more and more of a gimmick that loses occasionally in the game of rock, paper & scissors.
Here is my rule-of-thumb with regards to titans. The cheaper the are, the more balanced your army becomes. The Lynx is a really great deal. It's actually a very good tank for the price and I believe it is the cheapest SH out there with D-weaponry. So while you may not necessarily be blowing out armies with the Lynx like you would with the Revenant, your army will be more prepared to take on a wider number of armies because it is more balanced. That means flyer armies won't be as bad to such an army as they would be to a Revdar army.
Moreover if you take the Lynx, then you can actually afford a Void Shield Relay with 3 Generators. That's 9 Void Shields!!! (Not that I would run that.)
iddy00711 wrote: Apparently in England, GW has decided to include escalation into next month's Throne of Skulls ( with wide spread dismay of course). Although considering it's a 1500 point tournament most of the Es. book simply won't be viable enough at that points level.
Anyway to my main point, in terms of a Be'lakor counter, how useful would grey knights be (as eldar allies)? I'm thinking of course of the aegis on a dreadnought, but is there anything else i could use block puppet master?
I hope the TO's here don't drink GW's Kool-Aid. Thank goodness for common sense here. Also, a big thanks for Reece and his crew for leading the way to make tournaments more balanced here in the US.
It's hard to counter Be'lakor unless you can down him....with Fateweaver there. The best thing GK's can probably bring is a stormraven. If you can down him with your Eldar primary, you just may be able to take him out with Mindstrike Missiles, even if he has a 2++ from the Grimoire.
Peregrine wrote:It's also extremely fragile. With only AV 11 and 6 HP you can't count on keeping it on the table very long.
It's got armour 12. I don't know if it's got other rules around but the Lord of War pdf says that IA11 is up to date and IA11 says AV12. So, 6 hull points, AV12 and titan holofields for 320 points says it stays point by point longer on the table than any of the other Eldar super heavies. Basically for the Revenant you pay triple the points for double the firepower and a third more survivability (not accounting the fact that it's easy to get cover saves on the tank). It's not a lot more expensive than a Wraithknight. Can you win even if your Wraithknight got destroyed? Of course, and this vehicle right here will destroy half a dozen of the enemy's strongest units and vehicles before it finally gets smoked, unlike any other model in its price range.
jy2 wrote:The cheaper the are, the more balanced your army becomes
I agree 100%, as long as we remind everyone that being more balanced doesn't mean being less competitive. To me, the most competitive army is the one that at grand tournaments will massacre most of your opponents and get atleast a draw against your worst nemesis (when played correctly). It doesn't make a difference if you wipe out your enemies in 2 turns or 4, as long as you wipe them out, but even more importantly what matters is how many worst enemies and counter armies you're getting because you're unbalancing your army to one particular forté.
Peregrine wrote:It's also extremely fragile. With only AV 11 and 6 HP you can't count on keeping it on the table very long.
It's got armour 12. I don't know if it's got other rules around but the Lord of War pdf says that IA11 is up to date and IA11 says AV12. So, 6 hull points, AV12 and titan holofields for 320 points says it stays point by point longer on the table than any of the other Eldar super heavies. Basically for the Revenant you pay triple the points for double the firepower and a third more survivability (not accounting the fact that it's easy to get cover saves on the tank). It's not a lot more expensive than a Wraithknight. Can you win even if your Wraithknight got destroyed? Of course, and this vehicle right here will destroy half a dozen of the enemy's strongest units and vehicles before it finally gets smoked, unlike any other model in its price range.
It's 11/11/11 in IA:Apoc, which is the "pointless nerf" Peregrine was referring to. It does get holofields though, so it's basically got 12 HP and can still become a zooming flyer at will. 420 points for an effectively 12 HP Night Scythe with a Str D gun isn't too bad honestly. In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's by far the best choice in 1500 point games. Having played VS Lynx spam (well, 4 of them at least) I can see why the change was made but with the current Titans running around the place it barely matters.
The cobra is meh though. I have no idea why you'd ever take it over the Scorpion, which is beaten in value by the Lynx, which is beaten by the Revenant. Even at 7" it's no fun to be on the receiving end of but it just doesn't do as much as 2 large blasts anyway.
Peregrine wrote:It's also extremely fragile. With only AV 11 and 6 HP you can't count on keeping it on the table very long.
It's got armour 12. I don't know if it's got other rules around but the Lord of War pdf says that IA11 is up to date and IA11 says AV12. So, 6 hull points, AV12 and titan holofields for 320 points says it stays point by point longer on the table than any of the other Eldar super heavies. Basically for the Revenant you pay triple the points for double the firepower and a third more survivability (not accounting the fact that it's easy to get cover saves on the tank). It's not a lot more expensive than a Wraithknight. Can you win even if your Wraithknight got destroyed? Of course, and this vehicle right here will destroy half a dozen of the enemy's strongest units and vehicles before it finally gets smoked, unlike any other model in its price range.
It's 11/11/11 in IA:Apoc, which is the "pointless nerf" Peregrine was referring to. It does get holofields though, so it's basically got 12 HP and can still become a zooming flyer at will. 420 points for an effectively 12 HP Night Scythe with a Str D gun isn't too bad honestly. In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's by far the best choice in 1500 point games. Having played VS Lynx spam (well, 4 of them at least) I can see why the change was made but with the current Titans running around the place it barely matters.
The cobra is meh though. I have no idea why you'd ever take it over the Scorpion, which is beaten in value by the Lynx, which is beaten by the Revenant. Even at 7" it's no fun to be on the receiving end of but it just doesn't do as much as 2 large blasts anyway.
It's silly this same discussion is going on in 2 threads, but wouldn't you say that with the adjusted points costs the Vampire Hunter becomes quite attractive. AV11 and 12 hull points (!!) and all the advantages that being a flyer can give you, still for almost 200 points less than the price of a Revenant. It'll beat those armies that have Titans too. And for those that say it can't shoot as often since it'll move on and off the field -- It can just go into hover mode if it looks like nothing can seriously harm it. Eliminate the enemy strength D, pop forewarning and just hover still and blast away. But whenever the enemy is packing a dozen Voltaic Staffs or deep striking meltagun kill teams, these superheavy flyers are the ones that will survive, while the tanks and Titans will not.
Imperial Armour Apocalypse, the most recent one, has the Lynx at 11/11/11 and 420 points. It recieved a price hike in light of the new, ridiculous strength D weapons I'm sure. The best way to bring strength D cheaply actually belongs to possibly the weakest army in the game. Orks can take a Kil Bursta with 14/13/10, 7 HP and a 7" D blast for 400 points. It also has a tranpsport capacity of twelve, so you can put 2x 6 Lootas with 3 Meks in there and have 6 shots at repairing a hull point every turn. This basically forces your opponent to try to kill it in one turn, or at least do heavy damage every turn - and the repairs allow you to deny enemy victory points for chipping away at it. The lootas do take you over 1/4 of a 2k army, but they are still Lootas even if they don't get many shots so you can kind of think of this as a deathstar of sorts. You also have the crushing weight special rule, so you can concievably ram or tank shock your way out of a tricky situation and end up doing some serious damage. A 1/3 chance to one-shot a Land Raider just by driving into it isn't bad at all. The Orks also have another excellent option - A kustom stompa with two Bursta Guns and a Power Field brings two 7" D Blasts and a Void Shield equivalent for a littel over 500 points. You can also buy 3D6 S9 shots with a Deff Arsenal for Void Shield Clearance. I think the Orks are doing really great as far as SHV are concerned.
thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote: Imperial Armour Apocalypse, the most recent one, has the Lynx at 11/11/11 and 420 points. It recieved a price hike in light of the new, ridiculous strength D weapons I'm sure. The best way to bring strength D cheaply actually belongs to possibly the weakest army in the game. Orks can take a Kil Bursta with 14/13/10, 7 HP and a 7" D blast for 400 points. It also has a tranpsport capacity of twelve, so you can put 2x 6 Lootas with 3 Meks in there and have 6 shots at repairing a hull point every turn. This basically forces your opponent to try to kill it in one turn, or at least do heavy damage every turn - and the repairs allow you to deny enemy victory points for chipping away at it. The lootas do take you over 1/4 of a 2k army, but they are still Lootas even if they don't get many shots so you can kind of think of this as a deathstar of sorts. You also have the crushing weight special rule, so you can concievably ram or tank shock your way out of a tricky situation and end up doing some serious damage. A 1/3 chance to one-shot a Land Raider just by driving into it isn't bad at all. The Orks also have another excellent option - A kustom stompa with two Bursta Guns and a Power Field brings two 7" D Blasts and a Void Shield equivalent for a littel over 500 points. You can also buy 3D6 S9 shots with a Deff Arsenal for Void Shield Clearance. I think the Orks are doing really great as far as SHV are concerned.
Definately. Both of those options are absolutely fantastic and I'd expect especially that repairing one to be an auto-include for competitive armies. Yet as with most strength D weapons, they got templates (not a bad thing in general of course) meaning that superheavy flyers can't be hit. Just an argument that favours the Vampire Hunter over the Scorpion or the Revenant in the 'where should I mount my Pulsar' discussion.
I won't play any games where it is used. None. Just as I have refused every Apocalypse game.
If a tournament allows it, I won't participate. Friendly game, I'll respectfully pass. When looking for tournaments to play in, it will be the first thing I look for, or the first question I ask.
Just like Apocalypse, if I see the word Escalation I'll pass over without even reading it.
Destroyer weapons have no place in 40k and should have stayed in Apocalypse. GW can shove it, this very well may be the decision that drives me out if the hobby in an appreciable manor for good. And that completely depends on how many local tournaments and GTs will allow Escalation.
If TOs ban Escalation, I'll gladly keep playing 1-2 Tournaments per month. If they accept it, I flat out will not participate.
It's 11/11/11 in IA:Apoc, which is the "pointless nerf" Peregrine was referring to. It does get holofields though, so it's basically got 12 HP and can still become a zooming flyer at will. 420 points for an effectively 12 HP Night Scythe with a Str D gun isn't too bad honestly. In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's by far the best choice in 1500 point games. Having played VS Lynx spam (well, 4 of them at least) I can see why the change was made but with the current Titans running around the place it barely matters.
The cobra is meh though. I have no idea why you'd ever take it over the Scorpion, which is beaten in value by the Lynx, which is beaten by the Revenant. Even at 7" it's no fun to be on the receiving end of but it just doesn't do as much as 2 large blasts anyway.
The cobra has its uses, depending on your meta. 2 5" blasts aren't always better than 1 7", mainly because you have to fire at the same unit. In other words, 2 D blasts may be overkill at times. How many D blasts do you need to kill 1 land raider? Whereas, with the 7" blast, you can potentially hit and kill 2 to 3 vehicles if they are within proximity of each other.
Also, the cobra is barrage, meaning you can hit units hiding outside of your LOS. You can also hide your cobra (assuming there is a large enough BLOS terrain) and still fire with it.
I haven't seen/played against the Lynx but I can see how it can be an incredible buy at lower points Escalation games.
It's silly this same discussion is going on in 2 threads, but wouldn't you say that with the adjusted points costs the Vampire Hunter becomes quite attractive. AV11 and 12 hull points (!!) and all the advantages that being a flyer can give you, still for almost 200 points less than the price of a Revenant. It'll beat those armies that have Titans too. And for those that say it can't shoot as often since it'll move on and off the field -- It can just go into hover mode if it looks like nothing can seriously harm it. Eliminate the enemy strength D, pop forewarning and just hover still and blast away. But whenever the enemy is packing a dozen Voltaic Staffs or deep striking meltagun kill teams, these superheavy flyers are the ones that will survive, while the tanks and Titans will not.
The vampire is good, but as with all flyers, it's got its weaknesses that can be exploited, especially if you opponent has got a mobile army. Moreover, it still can't shoot its pulsars at other flyers. But against the majority of the titans out there, its pretty effective, that is, until they start taking Void Shield Generators in their armies.
thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote: Imperial Armour Apocalypse, the most recent one, has the Lynx at 11/11/11 and 420 points. It recieved a price hike in light of the new, ridiculous strength D weapons I'm sure. The best way to bring strength D cheaply actually belongs to possibly the weakest army in the game. Orks can take a Kil Bursta with 14/13/10, 7 HP and a 7" D blast for 400 points. It also has a tranpsport capacity of twelve, so you can put 2x 6 Lootas with 3 Meks in there and have 6 shots at repairing a hull point every turn. This basically forces your opponent to try to kill it in one turn, or at least do heavy damage every turn - and the repairs allow you to deny enemy victory points for chipping away at it. The lootas do take you over 1/4 of a 2k army, but they are still Lootas even if they don't get many shots so you can kind of think of this as a deathstar of sorts. You also have the crushing weight special rule, so you can concievably ram or tank shock your way out of a tricky situation and end up doing some serious damage. A 1/3 chance to one-shot a Land Raider just by driving into it isn't bad at all. The Orks also have another excellent option - A kustom stompa with two Bursta Guns and a Power Field brings two 7" D Blasts and a Void Shield equivalent for a littel over 500 points. You can also buy 3D6 S9 shots with a Deff Arsenal for Void Shield Clearance. I think the Orks are doing really great as far as SHV are concerned.
I like the Kustom Stompa. If I were building an ork army for Escalation, I'd probably build it around the Super-heavy walker.
thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote: Imperial Armour Apocalypse, the most recent one, has the Lynx at 11/11/11 and 420 points. It recieved a price hike in light of the new, ridiculous strength D weapons I'm sure. The best way to bring strength D cheaply actually belongs to possibly the weakest army in the game. Orks can take a Kil Bursta with 14/13/10, 7 HP and a 7" D blast for 400 points. It also has a tranpsport capacity of twelve, so you can put 2x 6 Lootas with 3 Meks in there and have 6 shots at repairing a hull point every turn. This basically forces your opponent to try to kill it in one turn, or at least do heavy damage every turn - and the repairs allow you to deny enemy victory points for chipping away at it. The lootas do take you over 1/4 of a 2k army, but they are still Lootas even if they don't get many shots so you can kind of think of this as a deathstar of sorts. You also have the crushing weight special rule, so you can concievably ram or tank shock your way out of a tricky situation and end up doing some serious damage. A 1/3 chance to one-shot a Land Raider just by driving into it isn't bad at all. The Orks also have another excellent option - A kustom stompa with two Bursta Guns and a Power Field brings two 7" D Blasts and a Void Shield equivalent for a littel over 500 points. You can also buy 3D6 S9 shots with a Deff Arsenal for Void Shield Clearance. I think the Orks are doing really great as far as SHV are concerned.
Definately. Both of those options are absolutely fantastic and I'd expect especially that repairing one to be an auto-include for competitive armies. Yet as with most strength D weapons, they got templates (not a bad thing in general of course) meaning that superheavy flyers can't be hit. Just an argument that favours the Vampire Hunter over the Scorpion or the Revenant in the 'where should I mount my Pulsar' discussion.
I'd still take the Revenant over the Vampire Hunter. Give it some Void Shields and its all good. The Vampire Hunter won't be able to hurt it really.
CKO wrote: All of those units cannot start in reserve, half of them have to be deployed right?
Right. At 1750, I'd deploy like this (not counting the Crimson Hunter, which must be in reserves and is not counted when calculating how many units must start on the table):
Deploy: Revenant
Autarch
1x Troop
1x Vyper
1x War Walker
Reserves: 3x Troops
1x War Walker (usually outflanking)
Against FMC-spam daemons, I'd probably deploy everything.
I won't play any games where it is used. None. Just as I have refused every Apocalypse game.
If a tournament allows it, I won't participate. Friendly game, I'll respectfully pass. When looking for tournaments to play in, it will be the first thing I look for, or the first question I ask.
Just like Apocalypse, if I see the word Escalation I'll pass over without even reading it.
Destroyer weapons have no place in 40k and should have stayed in Apocalypse. GW can shove it, this very well may be the decision that drives me out if the hobby in an appreciable manor for good. And that completely depends on how many local tournaments and GTs will allow Escalation.
If TOs ban Escalation, I'll gladly keep playing 1-2 Tournaments per month. If they accept it, I flat out will not participate.
You're not alone. There are a lot of people against having Apoc units in regular 40K. Heck, there's a lot of people against even Forgeworld in regular 40K. This strategy of GW is going to piss of these players and a lot of them will hang their hats when it comes to 40K. I feel for you and this group of people. It's too much change too soon. Alas, it's already done. Now we're just going to have to adjust or stop playing unfortunately.
On the bright side, I don't see tournaments using Escalation or Stronghold, at least not for quite some time and definitely not the big ones. However, only time will tell how long that will last.
Eldar have always had some of the best tank models. Anyway, yeah, Cobra was nerfed severely whereas other stuff was barely touched. Kinda dumb but it's not as if Eldar are in any way badly off, it just sucks that this nerf-overpowered cycle exists at all.
Well, tell me at least the cobra is still cheaper than the scorpion.
Eldar right now may still be king of regular 40K as well as Escalation, even with the nerfs to a couple of its SH's, so I'm not even going to sweat it.
jy2 wrote: Well, tell me at least the cobra is still cheaper than the scorpion.
Eldar right now may still be king of regular 40K as well as Escalation, even with the nerfs to a couple of its SH's, so I'm not even going to sweat it.
Nope. It's 25 points more than the Scorp, according to IA: Apoc.
But yeah, Eldar super heavies are rediculously powerful. I think they may have to start making some OP super heavies for the other armies, just to balance it out.
Like, introduce a necron heavy flyer that has heavy 5 S D weapons. Two of them.
Speaking of overpowered, there is actually nothing restricting the Transcendent C'tan from taking 2 Waves of Withering. Yes, feel the wrath of the Double-D's (or should I say, Triple-D):
jy2 wrote: Speaking of overpowered, there is actually nothing restricting the Transcendent C'tan from taking 2 Waves of Withering. Yes, feel the wrath of the Double-D's:
Yeah, I'm almost certain that's an error, but as of now, Jack Black and Kyle Gass are totally going to wreck some gak. They will personally come in the store, sing their lines from Beezleboss, and use their guitars to wreck your opponent's army. True story.
Hey jy2, I'm hoping the next part in your Escalation/Stronghold tactica A) deals with 'Crons, and B) comes out soon.
(I'm gettin' antsy trying to wrap my head around all the new factors that will have to be taken into account, and would really like to see/participate in a discussion with people better qualified than myself on the best ways to tackle these new developments).
jy2 wrote: Speaking of overpowered, there is actually nothing restricting the Transcendent C'tan from taking 2 Waves of Withering. Yes, feel the wrath of the Double-D's:
Yeah, I'm almost certain that's an error, but as of now, Jack Black and Kyle Gass are totally going to wreck some gak. They will personally come in the store, sing their lines from Beezleboss, and use their guitars to wreck your opponent's army. True story.
Lol to the tenacious *D* reference (so doubly funny) Have an exalt, my good sir.
You want to survive Escalation? Then you better be able to handle the D.
Oh yea.
As well thought out as that post was, this was the most relevant. With weapons that can basically remove several units from the board in one volley, the best counter IS many small spread out units, even a titan can't hit 'em all. They need to be similar units though, so when they do get wiped out you got other units that can do a similar job.
Sorry but, truth be told, I wouldn't play against a titan with my current models. Why would I risk breaking them, etc.. taking them out for them to literally be out right back in the box :p I would only only go against that if they were getting my sloppy seconds (e.g all my models were already on the table from a previous match) :p
It's even more pointless than taking a Bastion against Vindicare:
Traitor Guard: "We have a Bastion!"
Vindicare: "No you don't..."
You want to survive Escalation? Then you better be able to handle the D.
Oh yea.
As well thought out as that post was, this was the most relevant. With weapons that can basically remove several units from the board in one volley, the best counter IS many small spread out units, even a titan can't hit 'em all. They need to be similar units though, so when they do get wiped out you got other units that can do a similar job.
Sorry but, truth be told, I wouldn't play against a titan with my current models. Why would I risk breaking them, etc.. taking them out for them to literally be out right back in the box :p I would only only go against that if they were getting my sloppy seconds (e.g all my models were already on the table from a previous match) :p
It's even more pointless than taking a Bastion against Vindicare:
Traitor Guard: "We have a Bastion!"
Vindicare: "No you don't..."
Yeah, true Escalation games will come down to who has the best D weapons and who can survive best against D weapons. It's just that simple. It's going to be the titans versus titan-killers/survivors. And while that may be fun for some, an unfortunate side effect is that it is going to stagnate army variety in the game. That is one of the major reasons why I don't think Escalation belongs in a serious competitive setting (i.e. in a tournament).
Ok, Part II of my Escalation Tactica is almost completed. It'll be out in probably 1 or 2 days and it's going to be Necrons.
Now I have a question for the viewers.
After Eldar and Necrons, what army would you like to see next as the focus for my 3rd Escalation Tactica?
I think Daemons, as they may add variety, given that they can compete without taking a LoW,
(Case in point, I played a 4k escalation game against crons, with FMC spam daemons... It was close, but I managed the victory )
I would really like to see Chaos Daemons. There are a few builds to explore and the Tzeentch Great Daemon LoW doesn't even have a D weapons but seems pretty solid in context to a FMC list.
@Chaos Rising
Honestly at 1000 pts you will probably never see a LoW. If you do kill the ~200 pts of HQ and scoring and win the game like that.
I think Daemons, as they may add variety, given that they can compete without taking a LoW,
(Case in point, I played a 4k escalation game against crons, with FMC spam daemons... It was close, but I managed the victory )
Daemons are unique in that they actually don't need a LoW unit to be competitive in Escalation. They are probably the only army that is equally strong in both regular 40K as well as Escalation without needing to change their regular TAC list at all. (Well, not entirely....I'd probably throw in 1 Void Shield Generator in there in the case they go 2nd, but that's all I think they need).
If I do a tactica on daemons, I'm actually somewhat conflicted. Aetaos or no Aetaos. That is a tough one.
Elites
5 Chosen 4 plasma 1 combi-plasma VotLW rhino w/dirge caster (I just love the look on the Tau's face!)
Heavy
Forgefeind hades autocannons ectoplasma head
Forgefeind hades autocannons ectoplasma head
For games of Escalation, it's actually not a bad base. It's far from optimized and could use some more troops and probably a heldrake as well, but your army is good to going right now with just 1 addition. Without changing your base, this is what you can do:
Painnen wrote: Can't it start on the stronghold sky pad for like 10pts or something???
I didn't even notice this post at first. Yes, for 5 points extra, the Vampire can start on top of the Skyshield Landing Pad. So basically if the Vampire player is going to go first he can just deploy the Vampire there. Even if he gets seized on it'll have a 4+ invulnerable save and the 4+ Titan-Holo Fields protecting the 12 hull points.
I think Daemons, as they may add variety, given that they can compete without taking a LoW,
(Case in point, I played a 4k escalation game against crons, with FMC spam daemons... It was close, but I managed the victory )
Daemons are unique in that they actually don't need a LoW unit to be competitive in Escalation. They are probably the only army that is equally strong in both regular 40K as well as Escalation without needing to change their regular TAC list at all. (Well, not entirely....I'd probably throw in 1 Void Shield Generator in there in the case they go 2nd, but that's all I think they need).
If I do a tactica on daemons, I'm actually somewhat conflicted. Aetaos or no Aetaos. That is a tough one.
Personally I prefer An'ggrath, but that might be just my love for hitting things coming through In case anyone's interested, my 4k list was:
Spoiler:
Fateweaver
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
10 plaguebearers
10 plaguebearers
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, greater, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, greater, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, grimoire, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, portalglyph, armour and ML3
Be'Lakor
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, armour, ML3, black mace
10 cultists
10 cultists
And the crons list I faced:
Spoiler:
Overlord w. MSS, res orb
Overlord w. MSS, res orb
4 stormteks & 1 despairtek
4 stormteks & 1 despairtek
10 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
10 deathmarks in a nightscythe
10 deathmarks in a nightscythe
Really appreciate you posting this. It is a great help for newbies like me to be able to get a better grip on how things run and how to get rid of them. Thanks
Painnen wrote: Can't it start on the stronghold sky pad for like 10pts or something???
I didn't even notice this post at first. Yes, for 5 points extra, the Vampire can start on top of the Skyshield Landing Pad. So basically if the Vampire player is going to go first he can just deploy the Vampire there. Even if he gets seized on it'll have a 4+ invulnerable save and the 4+ Titan-Holo Fields protecting the 12 hull points.
I believe the 4+ Titan Holo-fields is only if the unit moves. If it hadn't moved, it is hit on a 3+.
So is the flyer on the Skyshield flying or hovering? That's an interesting point to think about.
Tactical_Genius wrote: Personally I prefer An'ggrath, but that might be just my love for hitting things coming through In case anyone's interested, my 4k list was:
Spoiler:
Fateweaver
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
10 plaguebearers
10 plaguebearers
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, greater, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, greater, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, grimoire, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, portalglyph, armour and ML3
Be'Lakor
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, armour, ML3, black mace
10 cultists
10 cultists
And the crons list I faced:
Spoiler:
Overlord w. MSS, res orb
Overlord w. MSS, res orb
4 stormteks & 1 despairtek
4 stormteks & 1 despairtek
10 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
10 deathmarks in a nightscythe
10 deathmarks in a nightscythe
Transcendent C'Tan w. Transliminal Stride, Wave of Withering, Wave of Withering
Any thoughts on either of the lists? I can provide rough details of the game if anyone wants to know?
Those are some nice, beefy lists and very competitive as well. You guys probably aren't running Stronghold Assault yet, but at such a points level, I definitely recommend a Void Relay Network with 3 Void Shield Generators. That's 9 Void Shields to protect your armies.
Will you be doing any forgeworld units? I'd love to hear about the fellblade.
I'm just going to pick the titan that I would use for my Escalation army, though I can certainly briefly go over the other super-heavy options as well.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Really appreciate you posting this. It is a great help for newbies like me to be able to get a better grip on how things run and how to get rid of them. Thanks
Tactical_Genius wrote: Personally I prefer An'ggrath, but that might be just my love for hitting things coming through In case anyone's interested, my 4k list was:
Spoiler:
Fateweaver
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
Slaanesh DP w. Wings, greater, greater (so dual lash) armour and ML3
10 plaguebearers
10 plaguebearers
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
10 pink horrors
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, greater, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, greater, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, grimoire, greater, armour and ML3
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, portalglyph, armour and ML3
Be'Lakor
Tzeentch DP w. Wings, armour, ML3, black mace
10 cultists
10 cultists
And the crons list I faced:
Spoiler:
Overlord w. MSS, res orb
Overlord w. MSS, res orb
4 stormteks & 1 despairtek
4 stormteks & 1 despairtek
10 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
5 warriors in a night scythe
10 deathmarks in a nightscythe
10 deathmarks in a nightscythe
Transcendent C'Tan w. Transliminal Stride, Wave of Withering, Wave of Withering
Any thoughts on either of the lists? I can provide rough details of the game if anyone wants to know?
Those are some nice, beefy lists and very competitive as well. You guys probably aren't running Stronghold Assault yet, but at such a points level, I definitely recommend a Void Relay Network with 3 Void Shield Generators. That's 9 Void Shields to protect your armies.
Thank you Yeah neither of us have the stronghold book, and don't plan on getting it either, so have no way of accessing the rules/points... :(
But I agree, from what I've heard, the lists, and in particular the necrons, would benefit from shields...
Automatically Appended Next Post: *UPDATE*
I have *ahem* acquired the book...
Void shields are cool...
I've decided to add a Poll to that thread where you can vote for the next tactica. So head on over there and please vote for the Army(ies) that you would most like to see a tactica for next.
First off, great tactica that fully covers the way to go about fitting a SH into an Eldar list whilst still keeping in competitive and able to score.
My question however is about the use of the Forgeworld FAQ'd models in Escalation. I figured posting it here would be the most logical as Eldar have many more Lord of War options than Necrons. Currently, the Escalation book only lists the Revenant as the LoW option for Eldar. In order to use the other LoW options in the Forgeworld FAQ in a tournament, would the tournament have to accept both Escalation rules and Forgeworld models?
In other words, just because Forgeworld says it's ok to use their models, it doesn't mean GW says it's ok, right?
Thanks again for the great tactica (and the Crons one) and I look forward to more educational reads!
djm55 wrote: First off, great tactica that fully covers the way to go about fitting a SH into an Eldar list whilst still keeping in competitive and able to score.
My question however is about the use of the Forgeworld FAQ'd models in Escalation. I figured posting it here would be the most logical as Eldar have many more Lord of War options than Necrons. Currently, the Escalation book only lists the Revenant as the LoW option for Eldar. In order to use the other LoW options in the Forgeworld FAQ in a tournament, would the tournament have to accept both Escalation rules and Forgeworld models?
In other words, just because Forgeworld says it's ok to use their models, it doesn't mean GW says it's ok, right?
Thanks again for the great tactica (and the Crons one) and I look forward to more educational reads!
Right now, GW is so messed up with its policies that I think you're going to have to look at it on a tournament-by-tournament basis. Basically, GW is saying that everything is official - both Escalation, Forgeworld and Forgeworld-approved Escalation units. However, that's just not going to work in tournament play. In regular games, I'd say to let your opponent know as a courtesy but be prepared if he doesn't want to play against it.
As far as tournaments go, frankly, I don't think TO's are going to allow Escalation into their tournaments. The ones that do will probably make it a separate event, like what Adepticon did with the Championships and the Gladiator events. As for an Escalation integrated tournaments, I don't think we will see that anytime soon. Tournaments have started to accept limited FW but letting Destroyer weaponry into normal games just throws any semblance of balance out the window. Just check with the specific tournament you are interested in goint to to see if they will be running an Escalation-allowed tournament or not. Don't assume that just because GW says Escalation is now part of the game that all tournaments will follow. After all, what the hell has GW done for the tournament scene anyways....other than to make TO lives harder with all the new stuff coming out with little or no regards for playtesting and game balance.
Couple of points ... using the Lynx's flyer mode to go off the table and the return and fire away is really good. It gives you a chance to survive longer. With the hornets, interceptors and lynx I've managed to handle opposing SHs and even FGMCs fairly well. Pulse lasers, bright lances and D weapons are great equalizers. Void Shield has also been quite useful.
Couple of points ... using the Lynx's flyer mode to go off the table and the return and fire away is really good. It gives you a chance to survive longer. With the hornets, interceptors and lynx I've managed to handle opposing SHs and even FGMCs fairly well. Pulse lasers, bright lances and D weapons are great equalizers. Void Shield has also been quite useful.
Balanced is always better IMO and most titans aren't so bad. The problem comes up when you go up against titans with multiple D weapons, like a Revenant or a Warhound. Those are the types of Escalation armies that, when built properly, tends to dominate.
BTW, I like your list. It is a very good TAC build and I can see it doing well in Escalation. It should do well against the majority on the Escalation armies out there. Eldar is definitely one army that remains as strong in Escalation as they are in regular 40K.
Eldar is definitely one army that remains as strong in Escalation as they are in regular 40K.
Most certainly. Eldar have so many options in escalation and stronghold and field competent lists from 1500+ without missing a beat. Having access to great escalation units and having access to bikes as troops is huge. Only Necs are really as balanced, imho, for both but I think Eldar trumps them.
Well, Eldar certainly has arguably the best titans for Escalation. As to who trumps who, they are about neck-to-neck. One of Revdar's arguably biggest counters is necron flyer-spam in Escalation. As for regular 40K, let's just say my crons haven't lost to Eldar yet.
jy2 wrote: Well, Eldar certainly has arguably the best titans for Escalation. As to who trumps who, they are about neck-to-neck. One of Revdar's arguably biggest counters is necron flyer-spam in Escalation. As for regular 40K, let's just say my crons haven't lost to Eldar yet.
Have you played against anything other then a Seer Council yet?
jy2 wrote: Well, Eldar certainly has arguably the best titans for Escalation. As to who trumps who, they are about neck-to-neck. One of Revdar's arguably biggest counters is necron flyer-spam in Escalation. As for regular 40K, let's just say my crons haven't lost to Eldar yet.
Have you played against anything other then a Seer Council yet?
Yes, I have. I've only played against the seer council once since the new Eldar codex came out, but I've played against Grant's 6E old Seer Council Deldar a couple of times (back when Fortune was a guarantee). The old Eldar army is just as nasty because Fortune was guaranteed and the 2nd Farseer can then roll on the Telepathy powers to try to get Invisibility or Terrify. With the new Eldar, you'd be lucky to even get Fortune by having both farseers roll on the Runes of Fate powers. This usually leaves them with no rolls on Telepathy unless they get super lucky and get Fortune early. BTW, Terrify is the bane to my wraithwing necrons.
I've also played against GT-winner Mortetvie and his Eldau (Eldar + Tau) 3 times. So far, my experiences with Eldar - and keep in mind that this is only anecdotal - is that they are tough to beat but not quite as tough as Tau. Tau is the army that has consistently given my crons the most trouble so far (though I have yet to lose to them either).
Interesting observation. I have read the listing at torrentoffire and other sites that print winning percentages for each army. Currently it seems Tau are the number one army, Eldar is second and Necrons and Daemons follow up. Escalation of course, and stronghold are bound to have different results but there have not been enough tournaments yet to crunch meaning ful numbers. I have only played Eldar and Daemons in Escalation. Daemons have a rough time against Necrons and Eldar - their only escalation units are FGMCs and they at most will add a void shield generator to the mix. I have read your Necrons thread and in my two games against Necs the pylons were the greatest threat I faced from Necrons - the C'Tan is nasty but pylons destroy my lists.
Like I said, my rankings of the armies are more anecdotal than based on hard data. They are mainly based on my own experiences and philosophies on how the armies match up. They don't take into account the popularity of the armies in tournament play and what high-level players currently prefer to play in tournaments.
As for Escalation, Tau got knocked down a peg or two due to lackluster Lords of War units. Moreover, their really good units - riptides and broadsides - are elitist units that are really hurt by Destroyer weaponry so their strengths in regular 40K actually become liabilities in Escalation play, at least against armies with Destroyer weaponry. The Pylon is a very good Lord of War unit. You can definitely make just as good a necron army with a Pylon as you can with a C'tan.
I watch your batreps closely Jy2 and indeed the choices high-level players make also make results difficult to use as conclusive proof of what is actually strongest. I played this 1500 list yesterday against Necs with pylon ...
Lord of Fate: Aetaos’rau’keres, Greater Daemon of Tzeentch - 999
HQ: Be'Lakor - 350
Troops: 10 Plaguebearers of Nurgle - 90
Troops: 4 Nurgling Bases - 60
(1500)
I had to start my big guy in reserve and hope to weather turn one with Be'Lakor and nurglings in BLOS. The match was fun and between the Necs ability to safeguard troops in Scythes and Aetaos' spawning of horrors it was actually closer than I expected (I admit to having lost turn five - if i had another turn I could possibly have spawned horrors and won the match).
yep - the Staff is okay but not game changing in Apoc and his other shooting powers lack range. But he is meant to be in cc. On another note Jy2 - what do you think od shadow spectres and irrilyth ... no use in escalation? haywire seems pretty decent
Yeah, you can freely use titans in games of 
