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Post by: TheCustomLime
Here is my idea. I put in as many Tactical Squads as I can into a list and combat squad them. I created so many scoring units that it'll be hard for the opponent to wipe them all out if I have, say, a ADL. Is this idea completely without merit or is it one of those things that might work depending on mission/match up?
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Post by: Martel732
From my anecdotal evidence, this has not worked well against my BA historically. I can't imagine how it would work vs Tau or Eldar or worse yet, Demons. It might well work against other shooty marines because meq lists don't have the throw weight of Xenos.
Your opponent has around 5 turns to wipe these units up, and you are not doing much in return with so much invested in tactical marines.
None of the top armies care about the ADL at all. The ADL for marines is really kind of meh since Demons are HTH and Tau can ignore cover and Eldar use weight of fire. Tau have weight of fire going on as well.
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Post by: Maenus_Rajhana
A friend tried something similar against my Daemons. In an 1850 point game, he fielded almost an entire company of bolter spam and rocket launchers (6 tac squads, 3 devastators, all combat squadded so as to provide what he referred to as 'crumple zones' of disposable troops.)
It did almost nothing to my not-at-all-optimized list.
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Post by: Martel732
In this game, you must actively reduce your opponent's offensive capacity, because no list can withstand 5 turns of pounding from a full list.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Mmm, thought so. Space Marines suffer from from being costed like their T and saves actually matter. I was hoping there was some way to do it since I have like 60 of them but I guess it was wishful thinking.
Thanks for the quick replies!
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Post by: darkcloak
Maybe if you backed them up with something else cheap, like Bolter Preds. Maybe a cheapo Captain and a plain Dreadnought?
I'm thinking adding in some bigger stuff will make people think they are the threats. Your opponent will assume that the marines will go squish by themselves and focus on making fun of your "tanks by shooting them to pieces.
If you kit out the squads right you could actually use them tactically against pretty much anything really. How much damage does a Lascannon do? Enough. Also. Signums.
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Post by: Martel732
darkcloak wrote:Maybe if you backed them up with something else cheap, like Bolter Preds. Maybe a cheapo Captain and a plain Dreadnought?
I'm thinking adding in some bigger stuff will make people think they are the threats. Your opponent will assume that the marines will go squish by themselves and focus on making fun of your "tanks by shooting them to pieces.
If you kit out the squads right you could actually use them tactically against pretty much anything really. How much damage does a Lascannon do? Enough. Also. Signums.
Bolter preds, cheapo captain, and dreads can be largely ignored. Calculate how many single lascannon shots it takes to kill a single riptide or wave serpent. The answer is that the lascannon does not do nearly enough damage.
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Post by: darkcloak
So they shoot your troops and you make use of the other units. Meh, it isn't exactly a competitive idea. Mostly just for fun I imagine, if you had that many marines, why not?
Play an all infantry battle!
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Post by: Martel732
I think this concept would work better with troops that weren't as dead-weighty as tac marines. For as many people that claim they aren't overcosted still at 14 pts, they sure don't play like 14 pt models in my experience, much less 16 from 5th. Of course. that's why I didn't use ANY tac marines in 5th.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Your plan has merit, but I'd still make sure you have a couple of extra units in the army that are heavy hitters.
Still, the tactical squads do most of the heavy lifting in my Space Marine armies. I was winning tournies with them before they got dropped in cost, and I'm still doing pretty well now.
The ADL is an okay idea, but I think that rhinos or drop pods are a far MORE effective way to spam the tac squads.
Especially out of a dedicated transport, tactical squad spam can be really effective. I play Salamanders, and routinely deploy my squads out of pods in such a way that one squad can pop a dedicated transport, while the other side roasts the disembarking passengers with a flamer. Don't forget that splitting down into two squads means EACH squad can throw a grenade!  Generally I like to deploy with one squad being the 'assault' squad and one squad holding the heavy weapon. This allows the possibility of one squad screening the other.
I cram 3-4 tactical squads into most of my tourney lists, so if you'd like to ask me any questions about how I do it, feel free to PM me! I'd be happy to lend a hand!
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Post by: Martel732
"Still, the tactical squads do most of the heavy lifting in my Space Marine armies. I was winning tournies with them before they got dropped in cost, and I'm still doing pretty well now. "
I'd love to play in your meta instead of mine. I'll take my chances against marine players trying to do heavy lifting with tacticals. I have no respect for them and still don't even after the 6th ed book. I can't argue with turn 4/5 tabling by Eldar/Tau. Even with BA, I have never been tabled by an meq list. Ever. They just don't have the firepower.
Drop pod shenanigans from non-Space Cheese lists are something the BA are still good at cleaning up.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Martel732 wrote:"Still, the tactical squads do most of the heavy lifting in my Space Marine armies. I was winning tournies with them before they got dropped in cost, and I'm still doing pretty well now. "
I'd love to play in your meta instead of mine. I'll take my chances against marine players trying to do heavy lifting with tacticals. I have no respect for them and still don't even after the 6th ed book. I can't argue with turn 4/5 tabling by Eldar/Tau. Even with BA, I have never been tabled by an meq list. Ever. They just don't have the firepower.
Well scoot on down to Carbondale, Illinois, and we'll have ourselves a game!  Can't guarantee a tabling, but I'm pretty sure I can work those 14 points like a Roman orchard slave.
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Post by: Martel732
Yeah... no way I'm travelling that far to play 40K lol. I've even made White Scar lists work for it with BA. No amount of people trying to equate the new marine book with Eldar/Tau makes it true. I haven't been manhandled by lists this bad since 2nd. The point-click-die factor in these Xeno lists is crazy. And FMC circus from demons is an auto lose for BA.
The thing is that when BA assault tac marines, the tac marines die, but when BA assault grey hunters, the BA die now. So.. yeah.
If a list forces 50 meq saves per turn, which is not even that hard for Eldar, they will kill over 80 meq by turn 5. There's no way to spam enough in the face of that.
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Post by: darkcloak
Roman Orchard Slave.
If that didn't make you look sideways at your paint desk I don't know what will!
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Post by: Martel732
Oh, and it's still hard to kill BA with boltguns. Unfortunately, Xenos aren't using boltguns.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Hmm, interesting point Jimsolo. The only reason I went with a ADL is because I only own two Rhinos and a Drop Pod. Maybe putting a "Go screw some jerks up" squad into them and drive up the board? Also, a Master of the Forge could be a useful HQ since he can buff area terrain to be as good as an ADL so I can set up a forward base.
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Post by: techsoldaten
I have seen it work.
A friend of mine plays Salamanders and is using mostly tacticals and razorbacks in a 1500 point list. He smashed by Black Legion list soundly a few weeks ago with all his flamer and melta weapons. I had a hard time getting at all his squads.
That said, I think this would have been a different game at 2,000 points. It seems to me that MSU marines work better at lower points levels.
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Post by: somecallmeJack
It's one of those ideas that seems logical on paper but doesn't carry much weight. I know several people who've tried it, but none of them win consistently with it. When I actually played against lists like that, my basilisks & russes made *very* short work of them.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
I tried it once as BA (with 16pt marines). Threw together a list quickly and thought - ahhhh he wont be expecting me to spam tacs and devs with loads of mls.
Played against eldars last dex, which wasnt anywhere near as competative as the current dex.
He ran karendras in a scorp squad, with his rerollable 2++ due to farseer in the squad (he cant do that this dex)
2 wraith lords
Avatar
3 warwalker squadrons
Some other irrelavent stuff.
I died. My pride died! Everything died. It was like playing CoD MW3 on waves and being armed with only an m14 and no flashbangs as 4 juggernaughts approached you. I did nothing! The worst loss I have ever suffered and it is burned into my memory!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Funny thing is, if id gone with my mass jp squads with hidden fists (which I almost always do if not spamming av13), I would have ripped apart his mcs and karandras unit and the game would have been mine. Shows that trying to wrong foot the opponent can end up with you wrong footing yourself!
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Post by: Paradigm
I've been running an army based around mass tacticals (usually 40 tacs at 1500) with good levels of success both before and after the new dex. Here are a few things I've noticed (and note that this is in a casual meta,so no eldar/tau/demons cheese combos, but the observations are still relevant):
- One on one, tactical squad will lose in a firefight or CC with most other troop squads of equivalent points, so you really need to focus on the force concentration game. Getting a good alpha strike, taking out big threats fast and bringing your entire army against a section of their's is essential. To this end, you'll need either Drop Pods or faster-than-normal rhinos (WS with Khan or RG for scout), the idea being that you can get a good-strength force in the enemy's face, at only one point in their line, by turn 2 at the latest.
- Like any other unit, tactical squads are never going to be able to win a game on their own. You need other units as well. The key is to make sure you cover the weakness of tactical squads, rather than bringing more of the same. Tacticals generally lack anti-tank abilities, but can handle infantry well with mass bolters.For Heavy Support, you'll be wanting either Annihilator Predators (if you're running Rhinos) or lascannon devs (if using pods). TFCs, while great, are not as good here as you already have enough anti-infantry small arms (although if you see a lot of Xenos and lack AP4, they're a good buy). The next thing to look at is elites, and the pick there is probably Sternguard if you're using pods, throw a couple of meltas/combis on then drop and pop. After the combis have slagged a tank, you can then use them as Tacticals+1 against infantry.
- It's also worth bringing some Assault Marines if you are using pods, they can make a nice second wave for a DP assault. Drop them behind the pods for cover, then charge against targets that are either weak enough to be taken in 2 rounds or are posing a threat to the tacs and would be better off tied up.
- Combat sqadding is not as useful out of pods in most cases, it's better to keep them together as it reduces the likeliness of giving up First Blood. Conversely, CS is nice inside Rhinos as you can drop one squad out to shoot while still keeping half inside the metal box, giving you a nice balance between firepower and mobility/defence.
- Similarly to the first point, you need to pick your fights. Tacticals are never going to win a firefight with a Riptide, Dire Avenger squad or 50-man IG blob with an Inquistor. In cases where you are clearly outmatched, either bring more squads into the fray or just avoid the threats, using terrain and pods/rhino hulls to provide cover or block line of sight.
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Post by: Martel732
"Tacticals are never going to win a firefight with a Riptide, Dire Avenger squad or 50-man IG blob with an Inquistor."
The fact that they can't compete against two other troop types is pretty damning in my book.
If you aren't playing against Eldar/Tau/Demons, the I don't feel that your list is really being put through the paces.
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Post by: Col. Dash
Legion can pull it off I think as an all comers in 2500pts note I am pulling this off the top of my head.
5 20 man tacticals with Vexilla (I equip the sgt with melta bombs and a power weapon) for 275 (1375)
5 Apothecaries (maybe with auspix if points are there) 225
3 Masters of Signal 255
3 Heavy Weapon support Squads with auspix and missile launchers and flak missiles(either 5 or 10 man depending on the points). 600 ish I think(I don't use them very often, preferring my Sicarians and Culverines)
Leaves you with 45 points to spend on extra gear.
So far it has:
100 bolter marines with feel no pain(and whatever their Legion traits are)
15 missile launchers with BS5(see master of signal) with flakk and intercept options
3 Masters of signal(captain stats roughly) who each can either call in orbital bombardment or buff their accompanying squad to BS5.
Too many fun toys in Heresy to use this admittingly boring spam list but I think it would do well. While Tactical squads are bland and general, in this format they would be a bit more resilient and able to do something once they get wherever they are going. An opponent will have to concentrate fire on something leaving the rest unscathed. I might try this for the hell of it something with proxies(I have no need of more than 30 bolter marines, let alone a hundred) and note I don't play with super heavies on the field for casual games so no D weapons to worry about.
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Post by: Martel732
I feel that there are many 2500 pt lists that can blow them off the table. Another flaw with that idea is that MLs as the main heavy is a horrible idea. MLs are to be avoided in general.
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Post by: Illumini
Tac squad have always been terrible. GW costs versatility very highly apparently, but when you kinda stink at everything, that is not versatility, its simply bad.
Marines now have a great troop in bikes, and a fairly decent one in scouts, use those instead. The only thing tacticals bring is being able to be in a drop pod. Too bad they can`t take 2x special weapons, as of now, they have a bit too low damage output on the drop.
Dark angels can probably do marine spam the best. Bolter banner takes their damage output to very good levels. Something like a crusader with command squad + bolter banner, then 4-6x tac squads in rhinos and a void shield generator doesn`t sound totally terrible.
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Post by: SBG
I tried running 40 grey hunters, a wolf lord, 2 Lone Wolves and 6 Long Fangs against a non-optimized Tau list, and got smashed. Limited experience, but I didn't kill even one squad. I think a Lascannon took out one crisis suit all game.
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Post by: Martel732
SBG wrote:I tried running 40 grey hunters, a wolf lord, 2 Lone Wolves and 6 Long Fangs against a non-optimized Tau list, and got smashed. Limited experience, but I didn't kill even one squad. I think a Lascannon took out one crisis suit all game.
Against Tau, Grey Hunters are no better than tac marines because you will never get to use your HTH tech. Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:SBG wrote:I tried running 40 grey hunters, a wolf lord, 2 Lone Wolves and 6 Long Fangs against a non-optimized Tau list, and got smashed. Limited experience, but I didn't kill even one squad. I think a Lascannon took out one crisis suit all game.
Against Tau, Grey Hunters are no better than tac marines because you will never get to use your HTH tech.
" GW costs versatility very highly apparently, but when you kinda stink at everything, that is not versatility, its simply bad."
Nothing more true has ever been written on Dakka. Ever.
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Post by: Dakkamite
 TheCustomLime wrote:Mmm, thought so. Space Marines suffer from from being costed like their T and saves actually matter. I was hoping there was some way to do it since I have like 60 of them but I guess it was wishful thinking.
Thanks for the quick replies!
This. The game is about dropping 2+ to wound and nosave pie plates on the enemy. In other words, we've been using D weapons for fething ages
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Post by: Ashiraya
I remember a CSM 2K points list with over 100 Marines in it from somewhere. Seemed hilarious to just drown your foe in power armour.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
I took a list with 45 Tactical Marines and 5 Rhinos to a tournament once with 6th Ed C  A, I got absolutely mullered. I've played Mechanized Marines for almost every game up until August from January and I had poor results consistently. After a lot of inner thinking after the C: SM release my final stop in my thought process was the realization that inevitably you reach a point where Bikes is just the better option.
Long story short, Tactical Rhino Rush is garbage against competitive lists. You automatically give up First Blood most of the time, you've wasted countless points on an infantry core that's only decent merit is its ability to put a bunch of wounds on infantry at close range whom are just fodder for MC's and MEQ killers which every new Codex has in spades.
And now we have the idiocy of Bike Squadrons which are either almost the same price or not much more and have a bazillion advantages over Tacs, not at least limited to the fact they can pull off an absurd amount of AP2 fire at 18'' with increased mobility to boot.
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Post by: Martel732
Bikes are such an unsatisfying way to build marines. I feel like its Codex: Biker Gang, not Codex: Space Marines.
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Post by: Jamo
That's your opinion Martel. Not everyone shares it.
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Post by: Martel732
White Scars player?
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Post by: TheCustomLime
I love the idea of bike lists. Space Marines are crusading knights in space anyway. Them being mounted is so much cooler. I plan on making a Black Templars mounted force just for the hell of it.
I am a little disappointed that Tac Spam doesn't work well outside of drop pods. Ah, well. Thanks guys for the responses!
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Post by: Martel732
It is at least a switch up having bikes not suck like they have since 2nd. But many other marine builds are just straight invalidated by biker builds. Poor, poor internal balance. I think all the meq codices in 6th pretty much suck.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
No, I think C:SM can do fairly well if built with a sense of focus. Just take 2 tac squads, thunderfire cannons, devastators, some suicide speeders, Sternguard and a Captain. Or take all bikes or all pods.
I think C:SM's main issue is that it either cannot get a indeniable save or take the opponent's save away like the big armies can. If Marines had a way to fortify cover, had a way to ignore "Ignore Cover" or, at the very least, had a way to reduce cover saves then they would see a lot more success. I think this is more Phil Kelly and Jeremy Vetock's incompetence at balance more than anything else. And Robin Cruddaces.
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Post by: kingleir
DA dakkabanner might be the list for you if you want to use all those tacs.
Libby with pfg
Command squad with dakkabanner
LRC.
Tacs with flamer/ml
Void shield relay (3 void shield wih promethium pipes) add obstacles for those times when cover isnt ignored.
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Post by: Martel732
TheCustomLime wrote:No, I think C: SM can do fairly well if built with a sense of focus. Just take 2 tac squads, thunderfire cannons, devastators, some suicide speeders, Sternguard and a Captain. Or take all bikes or all pods.
I think C: SM's main issue is that it either cannot get a indeniable save or take the opponent's save away like the big armies can. If Marines had a way to fortify cover, had a way to ignore "Ignore Cover" or, at the very least, had a way to reduce cover saves then they would see a lot more success. I think this is more Phil Kelly and Jeremy Vetock's incompetence at balance more than anything else. And Robin Cruddaces.
First off, no meq book gets access to 2++ rerollable like the Xenos or ignore cover St 8 AP 2 pie plates. Strike one. Even focused marine lists fall flat because at the end of the day, being a generalist is not worth it in 6th. It's much better to just shoot your opponent from a distance and be done with it. Marines just don't have the throw weight in general to do this. Even in the new book. Grav bikers are great until they start taking casualties. Grav also gives my lowly BA two 5++ saves still and relies on quality of wound over weight of fire. Compare to Tau who just straight ignore cover, and my armor and FNP, or Eldar who just drown me in S6/S7 from range 36". Oh, yeah shooting my BA with puts them in harm's way of counter attacks, while the Eldar can do their thing from a safe distance.
Let's put it this way. With my crappy ass BA (and they are SO bad), I have already beaten the new marine codex more times than Eldar, Tau, and Demons COMBINED. Does that sound like a top tier codex? Or even one that's truly powerful? Yeah, the new marines are a bit cheaper, but they still lack the insane options of the Xenos. Cents are better that what's in my BA book, but at least I can KILL them. If the marine player attachs Tiggy, now they are on foot and BA mobility means something. Seercouncils and screamerstars are fast as/faster than my BA and *I CAN'T KILL THEM*. I can't even tarpit the council because of that stupid Baron. See the difference?
Even the dakkabanner isn't that fearsome to me because I can hurt the DA and do things delay them reaching optional range for a couple of turns. BA are good at movement. But the Eldar just start in from turn 1 wtih amazing firepower. Please quit trying to tell me marines are "fine".
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Martel, while I agree that the new Marine codex isn't a "OMGWTFAUTOTAKEGT1STPLAEC" book it isn't a bad codex by any standard.
Every army list has a counter to it. Grav bikers are a good counter for MC spam and apparently whatever Blood Angels list is a good counter for whatever Space Marine army list he wrote. And any army starts falling apart when taking casualties unless they are Tyranids. That's the whole point of shooting them.
Also, no army can mass deep strike elite infantry quite like C:SM can. Not only can you get drop pods but you got Stormravens to back 'em up. Admittedly that does mean it has poor internal balance like all of Cruddace's books do (*Cough*Vendettas*Cough*) but that isn't to say the book can't deal damage to the "Top tiers". Plus, those are only two codices out of what, 15?
I will give you that in a tournament setting you'd best leave your marines at home but they can do well in a more casual setting. Then again, your Meta probably has a gak ton more of Taudar then mine does so... yeah, that's probably a big factor.
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Post by: Martel732
TheCustomLime wrote:Martel, while I agree that the new Marine codex isn't a "OMGWTFAUTOTAKEGT1STPLAEC" book it isn't a bad codex by any standard.
Every army list has a counter to it. Grav bikers are a good counter for MC spam and apparently whatever Blood Angels list is a good counter for whatever Space Marine army list he wrote. And any army starts falling apart when taking casualties unless they are Tyranids. That's the whole point of shooting them.
Also, no army can mass deep strike elite infantry quite like C: SM can. Not only can you get drop pods but you got Stormravens to back 'em up. Admittedly that does mean it has poor internal balance like all of Cruddace's books do (*Cough*Vendettas*Cough*) but that isn't to say the book can't deal damage to the "Top tiers". Plus, those are only two codices out of what, 15?
I will give you that in a tournament setting you'd best leave your marines at home but they can do well in a more casual setting. Then again, your Meta probably has a gak ton more of Taudar then mine does so... yeah, that's probably a big factor.
The other Xeno books haven't dropped yet. Every Xeno book is better than every meq book so far this edition. I'm willing to bet the trend continues. Top tier would be the three Xeno codices so far this edition.
People like to win where I play. Can you blame them for using Taudar? Playing dirt taster marines and sitting there having the Eldar player tell me how many saves I need to make each turn is not most people's idea of fun.
The whole point of the problems meqs face is that they are no longer elite. They don't really last that much longer than Fire Warriors and modern Xeno firepower because marines are being wounded on 2's so much now. In many cases, they last not longer at all (Riptide pie plate of doom). They gave the Xenos options to turn marines into cannon fodder and smart players use those options. I can't blame them.
Also, I didn't counter anything. It's just that the grav gun is not a weight of fire weapon like mass scatterlaser/starcannon/shuriken cannon. Grav guns also always give FNP and marines have a hard time ignoring cover. So my 5++/5++ was good. Against Eldar, I usually get 3+/5++ FNP, it just *doesn't matter or help*; they have too many dice.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Grav guns wound get 3/5 shots each, deny your armor saves and force you take a 5+. How are they not a weight of fire weapon?
As for the xeno codices, yeah they are pretty good but you can't just say "Oh, Meq is just utterly useless against them". I've faced off against Eldar before (Admittedly with my guard army) and the key thing with them is to stick to cover and gun the crap out of them.So, I guess my point is that the Xeno codices can be beaten with good list building and allies but it'll be an uphill battle.
Also, I plan on running Footguard with Inquisition/ABG allies. I am not a casual at all costs player by any standard.
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Post by: Paradigm
I think there is a lot of ill-deserved negativity over the new SM dex, for several reasons.
No, we can't get a re-rollable 2++ or ignore cover on every shot, but only 2 codexes can get the first, and only one has the potential for the last (and not all builds take full advantage of it). And to be honest, I think it's obvious that the OP combos in some books like Eldar/DE and Demons are really down to poor rules-writing on the part of those authors, rather than the inability of the writers of C:SM to counter those combos.
The aim of each new codex shouldn't be to make a broken combo, but to balance it. I'd be interested to find out whether the writers of Codex: Demons intended anyone to come up with the 2++ combo, or for Tau players to take 4+ Riptides with Enclaves+Tau. But there's no way that every new codex should be given a counter to those (likely unintentional) power lists. Not all codexes can be the best, otherwise you end up with only one list for each army and the game ends up boring as hell, or you get eternal power creep.
So, SM can't mix it up with the ultra-competitive lists like Triptides and Screamerstars. How about the more reasonably balanced lists:
Nids: we have great abiity to spam small army for the little guys, and plenty of opportunity to bring Grav/plasma for the big'uns
IG: While we suffer to their AP2/3 blasts, their infantry crumple against mass Bolters and TFC do a number on them. Once we reach CC with Krak grenades (not hard with Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos) their tanks will go down fast.
DA: We can beat Deathwing thanks to mass small arms, and Ravenwing are generally outclassed by WS bikers. The only real advantage they have is the Dakkabanner, and even that can be countered by mechanising or using bikes to get closer faster (the banner seriously limits their mobility)
BA: SM win this one largely thanks to being so much cheaper. When BA get updated this might be a little closer, but even then, they lack the ability to blow away SM any faster than SM can retaliate.
SW: Previously SW were outright better, but now with cheaper marines it's a little closer. Not sure on this one, but my money would be on the SM thanks to greater air power and newer toys like Grav-cents.
CSM: Here we have issues with FMCs and Heldrakes, but can counter those with some good AA options in the Stalker and Hunter, and a few Stormtalons can probably beat Drakes in the air. We also have the Storm Wing formation available should we need even more Air power.
DE: Easy win for the SM here I think, DE just lack durability in the face of small arms, and SM can bring a lot of that.
Orks: As above, bolters will mow them down.
SOB: Probably beatable fairly easily thanks to ability to force saves with massed bolters.
GK: Weight of fire brings them down easily, and we can match them in the air.
Crons: We might lose to them in the air (but so do most), but on the ground we can beat them, especially with Assault and TFCs throwing AP4.
So that's that, against most armies
While there are obviously things SM can't do, that could be said of any army. Let's focus on what we can do:
Deployment: With Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos, Space Marines can excel at force concentration and can deny shooting armies a lot of firepower by focusing on only one area and getting in their face early on. Space Marines are very good at picking their battles.
Small Arms: While we can't do this as well as Tau, we can still throw down a lot of AP5 shots, and as mentioned above, they can get those shots where they need them.
Versatility: With Pods, Mech and bikes, there are a lot of ways SM can be set up, giving us a counter to most armies.
So to conclude, Space Marines can handle most armies, and while they can't handle the top tourney builds, that doesn't invalidate them. As mentioned above, those builds are only 3 codexes out of 15, and only one build from each of those. I'd wager most people don't face those types of build unless they go looking for them and as such are prepared, and against most others, SM can fight it out with the best of them.
The codex is very far from useless, and really is about where most should be, it's just that a few loopholes in 3 books convince people that every army should be measured against those benchmarks. If you're going to a top tourney, you're probably not taking SM, as you'll probably be using a more common netlist.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
 Paradigm wrote:I think there is a lot of ill-deserved negativity over the new SM dex, for several reasons.
No, we can't get a re-rollable 2++ or ignore cover on every shot, but only 2 codexes can get the first, and only one has the potential for the last (and not all builds take full advantage of it). And to be honest, I think it's obvious that the OP combos in some books like Eldar/ DE and Demons are really down to poor rules-writing on the part of those authors, rather than the inability of the writers of C: SM to counter those combos.
The aim of each new codex shouldn't be to make a broken combo, but to balance it. I'd be interested to find out whether the writers of Codex: Demons intended anyone to come up with the 2++ combo, or for Tau players to take 4+ Riptides with Enclaves+Tau. But there's no way that every new codex should be given a counter to those (likely unintentional) power lists. Not all codexes can be the best, otherwise you end up with only one list for each army and the game ends up boring as hell, or you get eternal power creep.
So, SM can't mix it up with the ultra-competitive lists like Triptides and Screamerstars. How about the more reasonably balanced lists:
Nids: we have great abiity to spam small army for the little guys, and plenty of opportunity to bring Grav/plasma for the big'uns
IG: While we suffer to their AP2/3 blasts, their infantry crumple against mass Bolters and TFC do a number on them. Once we reach CC with Krak grenades (not hard with Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos) their tanks will go down fast.
DA: We can beat Deathwing thanks to mass small arms, and Ravenwing are generally outclassed by WS bikers. The only real advantage they have is the Dakkabanner, and even that can be countered by mechanising or using bikes to get closer faster (the banner seriously limits their mobility)
BA: SM win this one largely thanks to being so much cheaper. When BA get updated this might be a little closer, but even then, they lack the ability to blow away SM any faster than SM can retaliate.
SW: Previously SW were outright better, but now with cheaper marines it's a little closer. Not sure on this one, but my money would be on the SM thanks to greater air power and newer toys like Grav-cents.
CSM: Here we have issues with FMCs and Heldrakes, but can counter those with some good AA options in the Stalker and Hunter, and a few Stormtalons can probably beat Drakes in the air. We also have the Storm Wing formation available should we need even more Air power.
DE: Easy win for the SM here I think, DE just lack durability in the face of small arms, and SM can bring a lot of that.
Orks: As above, bolters will mow them down.
SOB: Probably beatable fairly easily thanks to ability to force saves with massed bolters.
GK: Weight of fire brings them down easily, and we can match them in the air.
Crons: We might lose to them in the air (but so do most), but on the ground we can beat them, especially with Assault and TFCs throwing AP4.
So that's that, against most armies
While there are obviously things SM can't do, that could be said of any army. Let's focus on what we can do:
Deployment: With Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos, Space Marines can excel at force concentration and can deny shooting armies a lot of firepower by focusing on only one area and getting in their face early on. Space Marines are very good at picking their battles.
Small Arms: While we can't do this as well as Tau, we can still throw down a lot of AP5 shots, and as mentioned above, they can get those shots where they need them.
Versatility: With Pods, Mech and bikes, there are a lot of ways SM can be set up, giving us a counter to most armies.
So to conclude, Space Marines can handle most armies, and while they can't handle the top tourney builds, that doesn't invalidate them. As mentioned above, those builds are only 3 codexes out of 15, and only one build from each of those. I'd wager most people don't face those types of build unless they go looking for them and as such are prepared, and against most others, SM can fight it out with the best of them.
The codex is very far from useless, and really is about where most should be, it's just that a few loopholes in 3 books convince people that every army should be measured against those benchmarks. If you're going to a top tourney, you're probably not taking SM, as you'll probably be using a more common netlist.
Paradigm, I respect your posts, but I'm going to be brutally honest when I point out that this is flawed reasoning.
First of all, you've turned into a massive strawman argument in that you have:
A) Completely ignored Eldar/Tau counters, the primary complaint, point and issue
B) Generalized every Codex's weaknesses as though they're giant bullseyes presented before our eyes point blank (Delivery and utilization is just as important as effectiveness)
C) Given handwave explanations connecting A to B (yes, we didn't need to be told that bolters kill weak infantry)
D) Given "how to beat" solutions on armies that noone is complaining about being imbalanced
And then you've ended your post by saying that is conclusive?
You haven't directed answered the true point that extreme versatility is nil compared to blunt effectiveness + some versatility right now, instead just listing Pods, Mech and Bikes, of which only Pods and Bikes are decent. You can throw turds fast, far and plentifully (spamming Tacticals with their low special weapon allowance) but that doesn't mean they're more worthwhile as a weapon than a bundle of hand grenades. A turd may scare some, but a grenade kills often, and that's why these highly competitive Taudar lists are so effective and whitewashing against Marines.
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Post by: Paradigm
My reason for ignoring the likes of Tau and Eldar, that are hard counters, is that it is already established that SM are in a bad matchup against them. What I was trying to point out is that against other armies (which are probably just as widely played) SM can more than compete. The powerlists are not going to be beaten by anything but another powerlist, so there's no point endlessly reiterating that SM can't deal with them. Instead, I chose to focus on what we can do, rather than what we can't, and be positive rather than negative.
Where I have an issue is that people immediately use 'can it beat screamerstar/triptides/seer council?' as a measuring stick for effectiveness, and proceed to ignore the majority of armies in the game. Dismissing an army because it cant beat one or two others that have become powerful through loopholes and lack of playtesting is a fallacy when only a small portion of armies are those types of list. Against the majority, they can still compete, and therefore are far from useless. It's like pointing out that a sportscar can't beat a jet plane in a race, it doesn't mean it's useless against other cars, and in the same way, SM can't beat a handful of lists (that no one else can either) but are capable of handling the rest.
Just because armies aren't being complained about does not mean they don't exist, so by proving how SM can fight them, I am therefore pointing out that it is the anomalous OP lists that are the issue, rather than the SM codex being weak. The majority of the codexes that no one complains about are probably the base-line for the game, so it's a case of the Tau/Dar/Demons being better than average, rather than the rest being worse that average.
I am aware that I have simplified every codex's weakness, but that is no different to the generalisation in this thread about how 'SM saves are useless'. I don't have the time to write a comprehensive tactica on how to beat each army, all I was trying to say is that there is something SM can do to hurt them and beat them, which is something people seem to be trying to argue against and point out that SM are entirely useless based on inability to beat the armies that everyone else struggles with as well.
I fully appreciate that there are issues with SM in an optimised setting (most of those are with the other armies rather than SM themselves), but that does not render them impotent against the rest of the game as a whole. I'm just trying to point that out rather than dismissing the army as a whole.
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Post by: Martel732
"Where I have an issue is that people immediately use 'can it beat screamerstar/triptides/seer council?'"
Those are the opponents we are tasked with. Just like NFL teams have to deal with the Seahawks or Broncos.
And I have a winning record against the new SM codex with BA. I know this is purely anecdotal, but I can't even get to turn 5 with anything alive against Eldar. How are these books even in the same game again? And the internal balance of the SM book is also poor, making it a BORING book.
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TheCustomLime wrote:Grav guns wound get 3/5 shots each, deny your armor saves and force you take a 5+. How are they not a weight of fire weapon?
As for the xeno codices, yeah they are pretty good but you can't just say "Oh, Meq is just utterly useless against them". I've faced off against Eldar before (Admittedly with my guard army) and the key thing with them is to stick to cover and gun the crap out of them.So, I guess my point is that the Xeno codices can be beaten with good list building and allies but it'll be an uphill battle.
Also, I plan on running Footguard with Inquisition/ ABG allies. I am not a casual at all costs player by any standard.
Grav guns are not weight of fire because marines are still only BS 4 so only get 2/3 hits. And grav only wound my boys on 3+. So I can weather say 8 wounds that I get two 5++/5++ against vs Eldar forcing upwards of 50 saves a turn. See the difference? The marines don't have serpents, warwalkers, or warp spiders spamming me with 50+ wounds a turn. It gives me time to play my game and concentrate BA firepower and HTH units.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Seriously? Well, point taken. It's a shame C:SM turned out the way it did. If only the balance was better it could've been a great book. Ah, well, that's Gee Dubs for ya.
As my last remark, let me say this: I hope to god Tyranids won't become OP'ed.
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Post by: Martel732
It's a shame in terms of power level because the Eldar and Tau set the bar so high. And internally, there are just so many units that there are no reason to use.
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Post by: Tyberos the Red Wake
TheCustomLime wrote:Here is my idea. I put in as many Tactical Squads as I can into a list and combat squad them. I created so many scoring units that it'll be hard for the opponent to wipe them all out if I have, say, a ADL. Is this idea completely without merit or is it one of those things that might work depending on mission/match up?
Works okay with Calgar and Rhinos.
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Post by: koooaei
Well come on. By the end of 5 edition i was facing ba, sw and gk like 90% of the time. And now i'm facing eldar, tau and daemons 90% of the time. Most players are just too obsessed with winning that they forget to have fun playing. U can still beat top tier armies you just need to be a better strategist and have better luck.
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Post by: Zaki66
Its viable but it needs 2 things:
1. Rhinos for all of them
2. Practice
I have a friend who runs 6 Tac squads all with Rhinos to a great effect. He doesn't combat squad them (unless the situation is specific enough that he should) and has a lot of practice. Basically you need to learn how Marines work against variety of opponents and how to shuffle your metal bawkxes around to maximum effect.
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Post by: dmthomas7
Now there are also some problems with your assessment Martel. Simply enough none of us know how you play your army or how your opponents play. For all we know you could be playing absolutely horrible opponents when fighting against SM and that could make up for your success. Also you could be an incredibly competent BA player who can handle SM lists well but still have troubles against the power list, as you should. I understand the only thing you can base your advice upon is your experience but your experience is not how it is everywhere. I play a WS list and have since 5th. Even in 5th playing my friend with BA was a challenge every time. Admittedly this is a bit more slanted my way now honestly. With the ability to slide through terrain worry-free and escape combat when I see fit, the new codex has been good to my army. Yet, this is just my experience. Truthfully, I had to find a way to win with my bikes last edition and that made me a better player around here. If I go elsewhere it will surely be a whole different story.
Now on to the purpose of the thread. I personally feel that massed tac squads just wouldn't quite do the job. Even with the new update they just aren't great at anything, other then standing on an objective and hoping nothing too big looks their way for long enough to vaporize them. I like to still run at least one with every list, but I'm sure to include enough other threats to ensure my opponent is not paying attention to what they're doing until the squad has either sat on an objective till turn 5 or snuck into a place to cause true damage. The worst part of the squad is the problem of mixed ranges. Half of the heavy weapons that can be taken should be placed safely back with the best LOS available, yet everything else in a squad screams to be a mid threat range where it still just isn't super effective. Even combat squads isn't a solution to the range issue since then you have a squad of 5 T4 3+ models which is entirely too easy to knock off the board in a round of shooting. You can't charge with them or you will lose. Yet, when played right they can be useful. You have to really carefully pick your fights with them. I almost solely use them to hangout on an objective and park their rhino as a nice big shield right out front. Use the Rhino's smoke screen to keep my shield around a little longer and use the rest of my force to keep my opponent busy elsewhere.
Take this with salt though since this is my army in my local meta and we do not have a ton of power gaming going on. I don't think my army could compete with the power builds that are out there, but I pride myself on being a fluff not competitive player. To each his own.
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Post by: Illumini
As long as you are willing to use bikers and allies, the SM codex can compete just fine even with the current (pre-escalation) powerbuilds.
Tac squads may suck as they have always done, but the SM codex when used to its full effect is good. I understand that bikes are not for everyone though, I had a bike army from 5th, so for me the new codex has been a ride to glory.
The latest (post-escalation) incarnation of my SM list actually brings a single min-sized tac-squad in a pod to take out void-shield generators. Not sure it makes it through playtesting though
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Post by: Martel732
 dmthomas7 wrote:Now there are also some problems with your assessment Martel. Simply enough none of us know how you play your army or how your opponents play. For all we know you could be playing absolutely horrible opponents when fighting against SM and that could make up for your success. Also you could be an incredibly competent BA player who can handle SM lists well but still have troubles against the power list, as you should. I understand the only thing you can base your advice upon is your experience but your experience is not how it is everywhere. I play a WS list and have since 5th. Even in 5th playing my friend with BA was a challenge every time. Admittedly this is a bit more slanted my way now honestly. With the ability to slide through terrain worry-free and escape combat when I see fit, the new codex has been good to my army. Yet, this is just my experience. Truthfully, I had to find a way to win with my bikes last edition and that made me a better player around here. If I go elsewhere it will surely be a whole different story.
Now on to the purpose of the thread. I personally feel that massed tac squads just wouldn't quite do the job. Even with the new update they just aren't great at anything, other then standing on an objective and hoping nothing too big looks their way for long enough to vaporize them. I like to still run at least one with every list, but I'm sure to include enough other threats to ensure my opponent is not paying attention to what they're doing until the squad has either sat on an objective till turn 5 or snuck into a place to cause true damage. The worst part of the squad is the problem of mixed ranges. Half of the heavy weapons that can be taken should be placed safely back with the best LOS available, yet everything else in a squad screams to be a mid threat range where it still just isn't super effective. Even combat squads isn't a solution to the range issue since then you have a squad of 5 T4 3+ models which is entirely too easy to knock off the board in a round of shooting. You can't charge with them or you will lose. Yet, when played right they can be useful. You have to really carefully pick your fights with them. I almost solely use them to hangout on an objective and park their rhino as a nice big shield right out front. Use the Rhino's smoke screen to keep my shield around a little longer and use the rest of my force to keep my opponent busy elsewhere.
Take this with salt though since this is my army in my local meta and we do not have a ton of power gaming going on. I don't think my army could compete with the power builds that are out there, but I pride myself on being a fluff not competitive player. To each his own.
Well just do a back-of-envelope calculation. Eldar firepower is usually 36" range and wounds marines on 2's. Grav weapons are 18" range and wound my guys on 3's and have a lower rate of fire on average than serpent shields or scatter lasers. Tau ion whatevers are very long range and can ignore my FNP and cover saves. White Scars is the single best list you can build out of the new marine book and should probably beat BA nearly every time now. I have mostly played against people using Ultramarines to get Tiggy. Tiggy is nasty, but the UM tactics are kinda... meh. It's also not like I haven't used my BA with "counts as" rules. I have grav bikers and such as well. Making marines even MORE eltie has its own problems for sure. Now, every blown armor save costs you at least 21 points not just 16 from 5th.
The sad part is that not even prescienced grav centurions can clear enough wounds through a screamerstar or seer council to really get much done before its too late. This is more from observing other games because I have only borrowed grav cents twice to play with.
Also, I can't be that good because there are legions of posters on here talking about how Eldar, Tau, and Demons "aren't that bad" but you sure couldn't tell that from MY record.
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Post by: mattyrm
I play marines exclusively and I think Martel is right on the money, even when I win, the tactical marines suck.
I won well against an Iyanden list last week, my stern guard killed heaps, my terminators did well, my two ten man tacticals did nothing.
There are so many ap3 weapons nowadays I just have to stick them in cover and hope for the best. One gakky heavy weapon does feth all, and the eight bolters do jack even when they are in range of anything. Eight single shots, gak strength and ap, nothing dies.
I always like to take at least twenty so it's pretty fluffy, but after my last few games I'm really starting to think they are actually pointless and I'd be better with a cheesy two five man scouts in land speeder storms, stick a flamer on there and they will pay for themselves, and they can actually get out of my table edge.
Two things my ten man tac teams literally never achieve. At worst they all die, and best they live but can't move, and don't actually kill anything.
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Post by: Illumini
Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.
As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.
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Post by: mattyrm
 Illumini wrote:Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.
As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.
Oh yeah fair enough, I don't think SM suck, I just think tacticals do. 
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Post by: koooaei
But why don't you use tacticals in drop-pods, i thought They're meant to use those things and not just suicidal sternguard fluffwise?
Rhino-rush is still viable but not for offence but for board controle. This rhinoes are an awesome los-blocker! And they're relatively cheap and have some durability when placed correctly. Tac squads in rhinos do have uses but i find their role is more like "go to that point in a ruin midfield and smash some faces if anyone comes" rather than simply "go smash some faces".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imo tactical squad's best use is in a drop-pod assault. Use point-holding for scouts that are cheaper and have more range with sniper rifles thus are capable of doing at least some damage - they force passing pinning tests.
Rhino-based tacticals are not an offensive force - they're board controllers. Use them appropriately.
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Post by: Jamo
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Post by: Martel732
Illumini wrote:Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.
As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.
Your argument about how good marines are fails when you go to allies. Scouts aren't that impressive, either. As I have stated, the marines don't scare me nearly as much as the big three.
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Post by: BlkTom
Short answer to the OP, no, Tactical Squad Spam can not work, because small squads of marines no longer work. Just because you can combat squad doesn't mean you should.
Listen, you compare a Marine to a Eldar Guardian and you will fine that, over all, the Marine is better. Guardian has a really good gun (Assault vs Rapid Shot and Rending vs 24" range), but it is really on par with the bolter. The Eldar has great mobility with Battle Focus and in melee he has a good WS and Init. But a 5+ armor save and T 3 means he just can't take a shot. In Melee, he is not going to wound with that Str 3. He doesn't have 'ATSKNF' and can run away if he takes losses. The simple tactic is Marines outrange the Guardians, so they can outshoot the Guardians. But if the Guardians get in close and can combine fire with another unit (say a Wave Serpent), a small unit of marines is going to be wiped off the board no real problem. If you had a 10 man squad though, not only would you survive, but the return fire could be very brutal, specially if you cause them to break and run.
Eldar are also the king of the Str 6 spam. If you notice, the weaker the Strength, the more shots you get. ACs at Str 7; 2 shots. Multi-Laser and Scatter Laser at Str 6, 3 and 4 shots respectively. Heavy Bolter at Str 5 is 3 shots. Well, when your rocking Str 6 and a lot of armor for Transports are AV 11-12 and most walkers are AV 12, you have a chance to glance the heck out of them with only a few weapons due to the volume of shots. Thus Rhinos get killed really fast, as do Razorbacks and Dreads. Eldar Bright Lances are only Str 8, but turn any armor over 12 to AV 12, giving them a 50% to do a hull point and a 33% chance to pen. I feel that AV 13 and 14 armor is actually really good against Eldar because your forcing them to take Bright Lances. Now all you have to do is kill what is caring the Bright Lances and they have a hard time hurting you. And lets be honest, a lot of Eldar do not pack a lot of Lances anymore.
Know your enemy, understand their weaknesses and exploit their weaknesses before they exploit yours. Tactical Marine spam in a bunch of 5 man units is asking to get slaughtered by the Eldar, and they should get slaughtered.
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Post by: Illumini
Martel732 wrote: Illumini wrote:Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.
As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.
Your argument about how good marines are fails when you go to allies. Scouts aren't that impressive, either. As I have stated, the marines don't scare me nearly as much as the big three.
Not really. Allies are an important part of the game, and marines have very many battlebrothers that can fill whatever weakness your list has.
I play fairly varied SM lists, the commonality being biker HQ (usually Khan) 4 biker troops and 1-2 thunderfires, and I do very well. I`ve won one large tourney with such a list and got a joint first in a small one-day tourney, Except for tau, which for some reason is unpopular here, I`ve played all the current powerlists and have a 50% or better win rate against them all. This is against several ETC-team players as well. Tomorrow I`m going up against the eldar titan with my all-commers, no super-heavy list, that will be very interesting
If you don`t want bikes at all however, life gets harder as SM. I do believe Hulksmash won a tourney with ravenguard rhino-spam marines though? The rhino is actually looking much better recently, and especially with escalation. Iron hands are also looking like they can have some interesting builds, like flyer lists, and drop pods are always fairly good.
Maybe you just play with guys that are way more experienced than you or something?
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Post by: Martel732
Then why can I beat the marines and not the Eldar/ Tau?
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Post by: Paradigm
Only you can answer this, but there's more in play than just the army. The players will be of varying skill, and while this could be said of any army, it is likely that the most skilled players and those who are interested in being as competitive as possible will gravitate towards the powerlists, leaving the more casual, less skilled, or both, with SM and other armies. Of course, this is just speculation, but it seems obvious that those playing competitively and are more interested in winning will use the powerbuilds, while players that are playing for other reasons (fluff, narrative ect) are perhaps more likely to use other armies. This is, I know, a generalisation, but it may be a factor.
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Post by: Martel732
I've taken on the "power builds" for marines. They just don't kill nearly as quickly or thoroughly as Eldar or Daemons. They also don't have the 2++ rerollable scheme. Servo skulls have taken a bit of the bite out of the White Scars. I remain unconvinced that the new marine book is really that good. I guess we'll know for sure what the score is going to be if the new Nids are better than Space Marines. That will make 4/4 Xeno books better than every meq book.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Let me ask you this. Has this marine player did any better or worse against other players/armies?
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Post by: Martel732
I've beaten multiple marine players. Some were bike heavy, another was air cav. The marine units just aren't as polished and killy as Xenos now. Even the new marines have too many overcosted units and upgrades and it opens the door for a list like BA.
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Post by: Tyberos the Red Wake
Illumini wrote:Not really. Allies are an important part of the game, and marines have very many battlebrothers that can fill whatever weakness your list has.
In a thread talking about tactical marines, saying that space marines are good because they can take allies with better units to cover for them sucking doesn't make them good. It makes the allies good.
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Post by: jose kantor
I love reading how easily these threads get derailed... Any ways. I love the Tactical squad. The trick to them is that I expect them to die. So I tend to throw them into the fight as if they were guard. But of course that tactic is not always appropriate and they will end up hiding...until they die...lol
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Post by: Illumini
 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Illumini wrote:Not really. Allies are an important part of the game, and marines have very many battlebrothers that can fill whatever weakness your list has.
In a thread talking about tactical marines, saying that space marines are good because they can take allies with better units to cover for them sucking doesn't make them good. It makes the allies good.
I did give input on tactical marines in earlier posts, saying that they do generally suck. I also offered a few scenarios where they might not suck, in a DA bolterbanner army, RG rhino-spam and as cheap drop pod units.
Just because marines can use some unit from their allies to build better lists does not mean that the ally army is better, if that is what you are saying. A runepriest is a great way to make match-ups against necrons, seer council and screamerstar much better. Rune priests are better in a space marine army than in a space wolf army, as space marines have a better codex to build the rest of the list from. Same with coteaz, who has more cool stuff to buff, the dreadknight, who likes himself much better in an army with long range firepower where he can counter-attack etc.
Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
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Post by: Martel732
"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"
Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.
What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.
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Post by: endlesswaltz123
All GW need to do to address balance is make the next armies to come out wipe the floor with Necrons, Tau and Eldar but really struggle against Marines.
Then at least it will be a rock paper scissor game...
No idea how they would go about this though...
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Post by: Tyfus
Martel732 wrote:"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"
Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.
What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.
In fast good units is: land speeders, stormtalons, bikes (as troops) and attack bikes
In heavy : centurions, TFC, storm raven
Grav cannons on bikes and cents makes SM one of the best MC killers. Shure DE have their poisen, but the MC get their armour save.
Storm raven and storm talons are fine against flying MC.
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Post by: jose kantor
endlesswaltz123 wrote:All GW need to do to address balance is make the next armies to come out wipe the floor with Necrons, Tau and Eldar but really struggle against Marines.
Then at least it will be a rock paper scissor game...
No idea how they would go about this though...
This!
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Post by: The Shrike
I cannot believe I made it through 71 posts and there was only one measly mention of MARNEUS CALGAR; and it was basically in a throwaway comment. How about this at 1850?:
Calgar
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Devastators x10: Lascannons x4- 220
Stalker
Stalker
Total: 1845
This list has all the tools. I heard a lot of moaning and groaning about giving up first blood. BUT, if we're talking about being competitive then we're talking about tournaments. And most tournaments de-emphasize First Blood if not outright remove it.
That aside, what's funny about this list is, a lot of opponents are going to set their army up across from you and think, "Look at this noob, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators? Lulz" Then 3 turns later when there's still 40 marines on the board and 4 objectives in your hands they'll be thinking, "I can't win this game."
You can have 12-16 scoring units on the table (Big Guns/Scouring). Most tournament missions (Or regular ones for that matter) are objective based. Flood the objectives, ignore the Deathstars and you've got a shot. Calgar maximizes your tactical doctrines and drops in with the Assault marines to be a D behind enemy lines.
Of course, it isn't top tier. But you WILL out-meta people and can play spoiler. I also wouldn't put a bracket win out of the question for something like this. Remember too that the next few armies will be Nids, IG and Orks. Don't you think this stacks up decently? A few people mentioned practice. This is imperative. Marines may be the poster "starter army" but it takes a true expert to win competitive games with them consistently. It can be done though, ask Ben Mohlie.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Tyfus wrote:Martel732 wrote:"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"
Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.
What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.
In fast good units is: land speeders, stormtalons, bikes (as troops) and attack bikes
In heavy : centurions, TFC, storm raven
Grav cannons on bikes and cents makes SM one of the best MC killers. Shure DE have their poisen, but the MC get their armour save.
Storm raven and storm talons are fine against flying MC.
Land speeders are not good in 6th edition. C: SM attack bikes have also taken a price *increase*, so it's hard to say they are "very good".
This leaves us with the Stormtalon which is adequate, not "very good", as it costs almost or as much as a Vendetta and is completely inferior, (yes, the Vendetta is the measuring stick NOT fliers no one uses), and bikes, which ARE very good, but it can be difficult to concentrate fire from many 18" guns.
For heavy, the TFC is excellent, and centurions are good, but I wouldn't say "very good", as they are much more mortal than the new super units for the other 6th ed lists. The Stormraven can in no way be considered "very good". Arguably it's not even good. Merely average. If that. It pays for a lot of war gear that is simply a waste. The Stormraven is again, incredibly overcosted compared to its competition, the Vendetta.
I think your post prove MY point more than your own. Look at how many units in those slots didn't make your. The marines have a ton of junk units, including their troops slots. Automatically Appended Next Post:  The Shrike wrote:I cannot believe I made it through 71 posts and there was only one measly mention of MARNEUS CALGAR; and it was basically in a throwaway comment. How about this at 1850?:
Calgar
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Devastators x10: Lascannons x4- 220
Stalker
Stalker
Total: 1845
This list has all the tools. I heard a lot of moaning and groaning about giving up first blood. BUT, if we're talking about being competitive then we're talking about tournaments. And most tournaments de-emphasize First Blood if not outright remove it.
That aside, what's funny about this list is, a lot of opponents are going to set their army up across from you and think, "Look at this noob, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators? Lulz" Then 3 turns later when there's still 40 marines on the board and 4 objectives in your hands they'll be thinking, "I can't win this game."
You can have 12-16 scoring units on the table (Big Guns/Scouring). Most tournament missions (Or regular ones for that matter) are objective based. Flood the objectives, ignore the Deathstars and you've got a shot. Calgar maximizes your tactical doctrines and drops in with the Assault marines to be a D behind enemy lines.
Of course, it isn't top tier. But you WILL out-meta people and can play spoiler. I also wouldn't put a bracket win out of the question for something like this. Remember too that the next few armies will be Nids, IG and Orks. Don't you think this stacks up decently? A few people mentioned practice. This is imperative. Marines may be the poster "starter army" but it takes a true expert to win competitive games with them consistently. It can be done though, ask Ben Mohlie.
This list will not have 40 marines left 3 turns in against a good list. 5 man marine squads can be focused down by enemy *troops*. This list just forces your opponent to play exterminator, since it surrenders all intiative, doesn't participate in the shooting phase to any meaningful degree, and just tries to live. No list can survive 5 turns against an opponent's untouched list. Everything in this list is on foot == shooting gallery.
78299
Post by: j31c3n
How to make a tactical squad awesome:
1. Clan Raukaan supplement
2. Master of the Forge warlord choice, to unlock three techmarines
3. ----v
5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness & combi-plasma
sergeant w/ combi-plasma
razorback w/ twin-linked assault cannon & dozer blade
255 pts
55041
Post by: The Shrike
Martel732 wrote:Tyfus wrote:Martel732 wrote:"
This list will not have 40 marines left 3 turns in against a good list. 5 man marine squads can be focused down by enemy *troops*. This list just forces your opponent to play exterminator, since it surrenders all intiative, doesn't participate in the shooting phase to any meaningful degree, and just tries to live. No list can survive 5 turns against an opponent's untouched list. Everything in this list is on foot == shooting gallery.
What do you play in a desert with no dunes? Most tournaments (I'm talking big ones, NOVA, BAO, Daboyz, 11th Co.) have plenty of LOS blocking terrain. You can hide plenty of combat squads in these environments. My ceiling for this list was a bracket win while anti-meta-ing people. The OP wants to know if you can spam tactical marines effectively. This is one way. You can also pod spam with Tiggy and UM or Vulkan and salliies. I'm sure Ben Mohlie could still make Rhino spam work.
11860
Post by: Martel732
So your recommend marine strat is to pray for LOS blocking terrain and hide? But there are no balance problems with C:SM vs Xenos. None at all.
55041
Post by: The Shrike
I didn't say that. Eldar, Daemons and Tau, in that order are all more powerful books (Eldar by a long shot) than SM.
But the OP asked a question, and I answered it; apparently to your dissatisfaction. I don't want to get into an internet pissing contest. Bike spam is not the only competitive marine army. You can do a GravCent Deathstar with Tiggy. You can Drop Pod spam with Tiggy+UM or Vulkan+Sallies.
After that, you're in more "Can I anti-meta these people?" type lists. This is where tac spam, raider spam and IH Ironclad spam fall.
Anyway, instead of disparaging my version of tactical spam for the OP, why not post your own list for the theme?
11860
Post by: Martel732
I'm not saying that it won't win. Potentially win quite a bit against non-optimized lists. But it's incredibly lame. Marines should not be reduced to Orks.
I don't have any lists that use more than two squad of five tac marines anymore. I don't have much to contribute in that way. I try very hard not to use terrible units.
I still don't think tac spam has a good chance against lists with high damage output played by a player who knows what they are looking at.
Raider spam and IH ironclad spam would be a lot more entertaining but for Daemon FMC circus.
54708
Post by: TheCustomLime
Actually, I think I can see where Tac spam can work: Drop pods. Drop pods allow you to position your marines in a way that's optimal, it disrupts the enemy gunline and it gets devastating weaponry into the close range it needs. Plus you can drop pod in TFC and Dreadnaughts.
If only you could take squads of 20 marines. Ah, well...
11860
Post by: Martel732
Where's the devastating weaponry on tacticals? TFCs can't fire the turn they arrive. That's a fail.
Dropping ineffectual units into enemy double tap range doesn't seem that much better to me.
54708
Post by: TheCustomLime
Flamers, Meltaguns, Plasma Guns and their Boltguns. Boltguns at that range will make someone have a very bad day. Not to mention the Plasma Cannons, Missile Launchers and Multi-meltas that they can field too. Then there is Sternguard with their funderful weaponry.
TFCs do not necessarily need to fire turn one. Just hide them while the rest of your army does it job.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Why drop pod something that could be hidden on turn 1 and firing from turn 1?
Boltguns won't do a thing to troops in Wave Serpents or FMC. That's the *entire problem with tactical squads*. Xeno lists can be engineered to make them basically useless.
Oh yes, you can shoot up those bubble wrapping Kroot all day you until the Tau fire back.
And missile launchers are terrible in 6th.
54708
Post by: TheCustomLime
Why would anyone shoot their boltguns at the wave serpents? I can sort of see your point but your guys have other weapons too. Like meltaguns.
Fair enough on the thunderfire cannons but you could use them to blow the kroot away. I played Tau yesterday and a single Manticore shot made mincemeat of them. They have crap LD too.
As for FMCs... hit em with the bolters, ground them and use your plasmas.
11860
Post by: Martel732
TheCustomLime wrote:Why would anyone shoot their boltguns at the wave serpents? I can sort of see your point but your guys have other weapons too. Like meltaguns.
Fair enough on the thunderfire cannons but you could use them to blow the kroot away. I played Tau yesterday and a single Manticore shot made mincemeat of them. They have crap LD too.
As for FMCs... hit em with the bolters, ground them and use your plasmas.
I wish that worked against FMCs consistently enough to be good. Tactical squads don't pack enough special weapons to threaten wave serpents. Or even IG mech. Also, realize the more drop pods you use, the more you are fragmenting your forces. My crappy ass BA have beaten several lists because they fragmented their own forces with the terrible reserve rules.
54708
Post by: TheCustomLime
Hmm, that is true. I normally just ignore wave serpents but you really cant with foot marines. I suppose the solution then is to assault them. This would be tricky since they cant assault out of deep strike. Perhaps assault marines with jump packs?
As for FMC, Id say the solution is plasma or maybe grav.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Ah, now you are seeing my problem with marines in 6th edition. The way the CRB is written, it is very, very hard to avoid the withering firepower advantage of the Xenos. And the other wacky advantages of the Daemons. The basic 14 pt marine trooper just can't get enough done before he is assaulted or shot to death. This is generalized across many, many games. There will be specific games everything goes your way, of course. But marines need a lot more to go their way than Eldar.
63734
Post by: obsidiankatana
Tac marines are entirely sub-par compared to the alternatives capable of being fielded by other armies. Not, necessarily, due to their own statlines. Simply because Xenos codices have been given too many ways to pad the weaknesses of their bog-standard troops.
Tau Fire Warriors have poor BS, averages saves, and a low-end Leadership. Markerlights, cheap cost, and Ethereals solve all three problems. But then, most people take Kroot because they're DIRT cheap, and bubble wrap all the other wonderful guns they have (vehicles protected by improved cover saves, MCs, multi-wound high-save models) and the entire force is safeguarded by the bubble-wrap and shared overwatch.
Eldar Guardians have GEQ armor, short-range guns, and low-end Leadership. Easily offset by hiding them in the Battle-tank esque Wave Serpent, Farseers, Warlocks, Avatars, and the hilariously effective damage output of their guns. Again, tack on their useful toys - psychic powers for days (that aren't BRB-grade mediocrity), extreme maneuverability on top of decent armor, almost every gun having a special rule that lifts it above its alternative-codex kin, and again - vehicles protected by improved cover saves, and large multi-wound models.
Marine vehicles have ONE better AV on the front, which doesn't matter because of lance weapons or high-STR spam. Their cover is dependent on terrain, which is ignored by Tau and mitigated by dice-spam of Eldar. Their troops are average rather than elite, but costed at elite, because of the toys they get. Unfortunately, tac marine toys split their purpose while Eldar and Tau toys focus it. Frag Grenades to make assault possible - but why would you with your 1A, I4, AP- models? Krak grenades for vehicle assaults - which would be lovely if you could catch the skimmers, or get near the Chimeras without being blown back by three plasmaguns, multi-lasers, heavy bolters, autocannons, etc. You could also throw them at MCs! But if you've assaulted an MC, or been assaulted by one, you're dead anyway. Pistols to allow for assaults, previously covered as a bad idea. Boltguns boast the same or lower strength than most other weapons with no special goodness to make them worthwhile, and the ability to put heavy weapons in the squads makes an already weakly-mobile troop choice less effective on the move. The Rhino is even a pitiful excuse for a box to move them along the battlefield with, boasting lower AV, lower mobility, lower save potential, and nearly-nonexistent firepower compared to other codices. Albeit for less cost, but not nearly as low as it needs to be.
Granted, Marines have their toys. Grav, TFC, and pods namely. Which are ok. Grav is spectacular in its niche, TFCs do EXACTLY what they're supposed to, and do it well. Pods are something nobody else can do - I just wish they could deliver more than Sternguard, Ironclads, and Vanguard. Sternguard will shoot down a troublesome unit to pieces when they land, Grav-pistol toting Vanguard will put an MC down in a turn (although this is more because of grav than the pod, but pods help), and Ironclads will ruin an unprepared gunline's day (although most ARE prepared, because it's hard not to be with the toys they've been given).
Marines are weak because the others are strong, not the other way around. Doesn't make them any less weak though.
11860
Post by: Martel732
"Marines are weak because the others are strong, not the other way around. Doesn't make them any less weak though."
This. Everything is relative.
I think you could make Rhinos free and tac marines would still stink.
75034
Post by: Jamo
I don't understand how people think tacs are good. We have much better troop choices in bikes and scouts in lss. Tacs are over costed for very little return.
55041
Post by: The Shrike
Calgar
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Plasmagun, Lascannon, Rhino- 210
Tactical Marines x10: Lascannon, Rhino- 195
Stalker
Stalker
Centurion Devastators x3: Grav Cannons, Omniscope- 260
Total: 1850
How about some mobility? Again, not at all top-tier but I think you've got tools for the toolbox here. It's got no psychic D; but I think Nids will run Jetseer, Flying Circus and Screamerstar out of the barn by bringing Shadow in the Warp back to prominence and prevalence.
Nids have the drop on Daemons if both players are skilled already, even before a new codex for bugs. And once they DO get a new dex and people start bringing them in bulk, you can bet the top players who were running Jetseer will shift off of it (probably to Nids themselves lulz).
That being said, you now have to contend with Nids, which this list can. You have to deal with Gravbike, which with great care, this list can.
What do you think? Better? Are we approaching viability? Let's try to be constructive for the OP!
63734
Post by: obsidiankatana
The Shrike wrote:Calgar
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Plasmagun, Lascannon, Rhino- 210
Tactical Marines x10: Lascannon, Rhino- 195
Stalker
Stalker
Centurion Devastators x3: Grav Cannons, Omniscope- 260
Total: 1850
How about some mobility? Again, not at all top-tier but I think you've got tools for the toolbox here. It's got no psychic D; but I think Nids will run Jetseer, Flying Circus and Screamerstar out of the barn by bringing Shadow in the Warp back to prominence and prevalence.
Nids have the drop on Daemons if both players are skilled already, even before a new codex for bugs. And once they DO get a new dex and people start bringing them in bulk, you can bet the top players who were running Jetseer will shift off of it (probably to Nids themselves lulz).
That being said, you now have to contend with Nids, which this list can. You have to deal with Gravbike, which with great care, this list can.
What do you think? Better? Are we approaching viability? Let's try to be constructive for the OP!
In the heart of constructive involvement - grab combi-weapons before heavies, so you can stay on the move. When running a billion tacs, Melta-bombs are a well-costed and versatile pickup. Power weapons are... eh, but you may need them with your troops running double-duty as assault deterrents and gunmen. You have precisely one unit of anti- TEQ/ MEQ, which will be focused because of this. Your AA has no interceptor, and thus will be focused before turn two rolls around. I'd drop the Stalkers and a tac squad, redestribute points around, try and find room for an Aegis w/ Quad for Calgar or a Stormraven for those Cents. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, your AT is devastatingly weak, and two lascannons aren't doing anything to change that. They're also operating at the wrong range for the boltguns around them. Swap for meltas.
54708
Post by: TheCustomLime
I think this list suffers from having AV11 front which is basically giving up first blood. It can work but you are facing an uphill battle. I could see it's use for a cities of death game but that's it.
Drop Pods, though, is what I think will win the day for tac spam. They basically solve one the biggest issues for marines: Getting their weapons into decent range. So, my list would be something akin to...
Vulkan 190
Troops
Tactical Squad 205
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Meltagun
+MM
+Combi Melta
Tactical Squad 205
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Meltagun
+MM
+Combi Melta
Tactical Squad 210
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Plasma Gun
+Multimelta
+Combi Plasma
Tactical Squad 210
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Plasma Gun
+Multimelta
+Combi Plasma
Elites:
Sternguard Veteran Squad 205
+Drop Pod
+2x Heavy Flamers
+3x Combi Meltas
Sternguard Veteran Squad 205
+Drop Pod
+2x Heavy Flamers
+2x Combi Meltas
Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon 100
Thunderfire Cannon 100
Fast Attack:
Landspeeder 80
+MM
+MM
Landspeeder 80
+MM
+MM
Total: 1750
50012
Post by: Crimson
No love for Imperial Fists here? Wouldn't their trait make bolter spam at least a tad more effective?
81025
Post by: koooaei
Martel732 wrote: But it's incredibly lame. Marines should not be reduced to Orks.
i'm beating gunline tau most of the time, triptide spam 100% of the time and competitive eldar from time to time with my orkses. What am i doing wrong?
Anywayz, stop moaning and start thinking how are you gona make it. Tactical spam can work great in drop pods. It can work fairly well in rhinos as point-holders. It lacks punch but has fair survivability vs anything ap4 or worse, which is like >80% of all shooting. What else do you need? U wana take some 5-man back-sitters in a few razorbacks and rock the board like in 5 ed?
11860
Post by: Martel732
Sounds like you are doing Orks right. But marines should not play like Orks. That's all I'm saying.
55041
Post by: The Shrike
I really like that Sally list.
81025
Post by: koooaei
Martel732 wrote:Sounds like you are doing Orks right. But marines should not play like Orks. That's all I'm saying.
It's definitely true. However, i'm just pointing out that even such widely considered non-competitive and very old army like orkses (yep, we're 4- th edition 2006 dex still) can beat faces to competitive new lists. There was a guy on ETC that played orkses + tau. Tau shot from afar and used kroot distraction while Ghazzy with meganobz and boyz with kff mek in battlewagonz did stuff midfield and pushed the enemy from their points. So everyone did what they do best and that didn't feel like tau dominated this list at all. Orkses are just short on strong and durable long-range support and you can't win games without it. He didn't manage to do even one wipe-out but he won most of his games vs top-tier armies.
So why don't you change your view on tacticals a bit. U'r codex has options to fill any gasp you have. Don't expect tacticals to be uber-killers. Even fluffwise tactical squads are NOT exterminators. They're supposed to be used Tactically. And they do have such uses.
60913
Post by: Largo39
Can tactical spam work? no. But are a couple of melta pod tacticals effective? very much so.
Remember, a 5 man tactical pod with MG and combi MG is what, 60 points cheaper than an equivelent sternguard pod with 3 combi meltas. Furthermore with Um twin linking the turn the tacticals land... hey look they are just as effective to boot (about 2 hits each).
I like 2 pods with 10 tacticals each with MG, combi and MM goodness. So far been extremely effective and lets my third pod be naked sternguard.
Then I round things out with bikes.
11860
Post by: Martel732
 koooaei wrote:Martel732 wrote:Sounds like you are doing Orks right. But marines should not play like Orks. That's all I'm saying.
It's definitely true. However, i'm just pointing out that even such widely considered non-competitive and very old army like orkses (yep, we're 4- th edition 2006 dex still) can beat faces to competitive new lists. There was a guy on ETC that played orkses + tau. Tau shot from afar and used kroot distraction while Ghazzy with meganobz and boyz with kff mek in battlewagonz did stuff midfield and pushed the enemy from their points. So everyone did what they do best and that didn't feel like tau dominated this list at all. Orkses are just short on strong and durable long-range support and you can't win games without it. He didn't manage to do even one wipe-out but he won most of his games vs top-tier armies.
So why don't you change your view on tacticals a bit. U'r codex has options to fill any gasp you have. Don't expect tacticals to be uber-killers. Even fluffwise tactical squads are NOT exterminators. They're supposed to be used Tactically. And they do have such uses.
Because Orks are better than tacticals. That's why I won't change my opinion. Marines don't have the body count of Orks, nor open topped transports. The new marine book has only a few units I would consider "really good" and so I don't think there's much to fill gaps with. I won't be using tactical marines to any great extent.
81025
Post by: koooaei
Largo39 wrote:
I like 2 pods with 10 tacticals each with MG, combi and MM goodness.
Ain't mm heavy so that u're shooting snapshots when you arrive via droppod? Legion of the damned could use mm on deepstrice cause they're sn
Martel732 wrote:
Because Orks are better than tacticals. That's why I won't change my opinion. Marines don't have the body count of Orks, nor open topped transports. The new marine book has only a few units I would consider "really good" and so I don't think there's much to fill gaps with. I won't be using tactical marines to any great extent.
Orkses are not really better than tacticals. Their only advantage is assault weaponry but we struggle to get in range. We don't have droppods to deliver boyz. Even when i played vanilla marines before new 6 ed books i had no significant problems vs orkses. Why don't you try out tacticals in drop-pods and then tell "omg i had no chances - give me cheeze to outcheeze eldar and tau". Just from my humble experience:
Tacticals DO work in droppods and they're fine in rhinos. Not great but fine as midfield controllers. Tac squad - one half with a lc/ ac backfield point-sitting, other half with something like plazma/melta is riding a rhino somewhere midfield and controlling a point. 3+ in ruins on someone with ld 8-9 is not that easy to move lategame. U could have 3-4 such squads and they'd do what they're supposed to do. They're good at holding, aiding and clearing out the remains. But you need some other striking force as a spearhead.
So all in all, for a question: "Can tactical spam work?" we can answer: "Yes, they work for what they're designed and not for spearheading".
13664
Post by: Illumini
Martel732 wrote:"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"
Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.
What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.
Grav is indeed what makes marines the best MC (and especially GMC) killers.
IG better at killing MC`s? MC`s are IG`s largest weakness. What weapons do IG have that will allow them to stop those three wraithknights or those four riptides? Expensive Bs3 lascannons? IG has great flyers and great pie plates, neither of which are particularly good at taking down MC`s.
Marine units I have used in my very competitive lists the last 3-4 months:
HQ -
Khan
Troops -
Bikes
Scouts
Land Speeder Storm
Tacticals
Drop pod
Fast -
Land Speeder
Attack Bikes
Storm Talon
Heavy -
Thunderfire
Centurions
Devastators
Storm Raven
IMO, that is a pretty good list already, and of course, as this is just adaptions and different point levels of a white scars list, there are other units that can be very competitive in the right lists.
However, I doubt I can really help you, as it just seems like you want to have something to complain about. None of my opponents, which include a lot of eldar, ever say that SM`s are weak.
11860
Post by: Martel732
I don't know if weak is the right word. But definitely not strong. I have been in (and won more than 50%) of my games against other marines whether in mirror match or playing as BA. In terms of analysis of marines, I don't think I need help. I'm well aware of what is considered the strong marine units. And while effective, they just don't have the killing power of the Xeno lists. Or the invulnerable units.
More than 50% of my games against Eldar the outcome was NEVER in question. The marines still have no answer to jetseer council and that's a serious flaw. If the Eldar are not finding marines weak, the Eldar player is doing something wrong. Because my BA don't find them strong. And that's a big red flag.
77159
Post by: Paradigm
But what I think needs to be considered is is lacking a counter to the likes of seer councils and Screamerstars is a flaw in the SM codex, or if it is a flaw with the more powerful codexes that have accidentally become OP when they were never intended to. Going back to my earlier assessment, SM are on the same level as most codexes that aren't Tau, Eldar or Demons, which would imply that those three are anomalously powerful rather than SM being weak. I know this doesn't make those lists go away, but it does suggest that they are too strong rather than other codexes being too weak, and that lacking a counter is no fault of the SM codex, but the fault of the lack of playtesting to prevent things like 2++ rerollables coming into play. I'm fairly certain that the Development team never intended such combos to exist or be played so extensively.
A question to those of you who have a lot of experience against the newer codexes:
Do they still massively outclass SM without their crutches? If you were to limit Tau to one riptide, and remove Seer Councils and Screamerstars from the equation, are Marines still so poor? If so, then I concede that SM may be below the power of those dexes as a whole, but if removing those units levels the playing field, I think that's evidence that the problem is not with SM but with a handful of units in other codexes.
11860
Post by: Martel732
I predict the same thing will happen with Orks and Nids. If these codices outclass SM, then we know that power armor is just shafted in 6th ed.
If 3/6 6th edition codices are stronger than yours, how can you consider that an "anomaly"? Also not that all the Xeno codices are stronger than ALL the power armor codices.
Even without seer council, the marines can't crack the wave serpents, warp spiders, and pseudo rending catapults.
For Daemons, I'm going to still give the nod because the marines don't have the firepower to stop the hordes and FMC circus still trumps grav in most cases. (You'll need Tiggy with grav cents; other builds need not apply)
Tau, already the weakest of three in my opinion, would be the most manageable. Marines are still staring at ton of firepower and near-suicidal assaults into multiple overwatches.
A fundamental problem that just cannot be avoided is that not only is the tactical marine just not efficacious, but the drop pod panacea piecemeals your own list, making it easier to deal with for firepower-based lists.
" I know this doesn't make those lists go away"
At the end of the day, this is the problem. Everything is relative. We can't take away the Xeno's toys, and so marines are weak in comparison.
77159
Post by: Paradigm
Martel732 wrote:I predict the same thing will happen with Orks and Nids. If these codices outclass SM, then we know that power armor is just shafted in 6th ed. If 3/6 6th edition codices are stronger than yours, how can you consider that an "anomaly"? Also not that all the Xeno codices are stronger than ALL the power armor codices.
I'm interested to see what happend with Orks and Nids. I predict they'll be given some tricks to make CC more viable again, which I imagine will completely shake up the meta, but if they do massively outclass SM on their own merits, rather than just on one unit/combo, then it does suggest a weakness to SM. However, I'll hold off judgement until the books are actually out.
Even without seer council, the marines can't crack the wave serpents, warp spiders, and pseudo rending catapults.
Fair point about the catapults, the problem with them is that whatever armour you pay for, the rending invalidates it, so they are naturally a hard counter to MEQ. That would be fine on a few weapons, but across the whole army it is rather too powerful. However, I think that with podding melta/plasma, SM can probably apply enough pressure to force the Serpents to keep the shield up, and that massively reduces their firepower. I've no idea what Warp Spiders are capable of, so I won't comment there.
For Daemons, I'm going to still give the nod because the marines don't have the firepower to stop the hordes and FMC circus still trumps grav in most cases. (You'll need Tiggy with grav cents; other builds need not apply)
I think SM can handle hordes, with the TFC a great asset here and at the end of the day, bolters are still good at anti-horde. FMCs are an issue, but with certain builds (grav-star, Stormwing+codex fliers) they should be able to compete.
Tau, already the weakest of three in my opinion, would be the most manageable. Marines are still staring at ton of firepower and near-suicidal assaults into multiple overwatches.
I wouldn't say charging multiple overwatches is suicidal when you consider how little force you actually need to apply to tau to make them capitulate in CC, and every unit that overwatches one charger can't defend itself. Like every other assault-based plan, you need multiple chargers and force concentration, but it's more than doable.
A fundamental problem that just cannot be avoided is that not only is the tactical marine just not efficacious, but the drop pod panacea piecemeals your own list, making it easier to deal with for firepower-based lists.
I don't agree with that to be honest. Used properly, Pods can seriously reduce incoming fire by blocking LOS, providing cover, and getting you to the best position. It's not that piecemeal considering you get half on the first turn, and if you're really concerned, anything with a comm relay can help reduce that issue. Drop Pods are probably the best option outside of bikes that SM can take for troops.
" I know this doesn't make those lists go away"
At the end of the day, this is the problem. Everything is relative. We can't take away the Xeno's toys, and so marines are weak in comparison.
However, like I've pointed out before, Tau, Eldar and Demons aren't the only armies, and against the rest SM are more than valid. Just because we can't beat the 3 lists that every other army struggles with, that does not render us weak as a whole.
42034
Post by: Scipio Africanus
Let's break this down very simply. Why does one usually take a tactical marine squad?
There are a number of Elements to why someone would take any unit:
- Scoring
- Damage Output
- Damage Soak
- Area Denial
- Actually Dangerous Area Denial/Damage Soak
- Phasing
- Assault
- Meatshielding
- Versatility
Scoring:
Tactical marines are fairly resilient and reliably priced at 14 points. But, if you're just taking them because they have power armour, you're paying 4 points for a 16.667% resilience bonus against poor AP weapons, and a higher AP threshold.
Scout marines with Camo Cloaks cost 3 points less, but always get a save, save for weapons that may ignore their cover and armour - most of those such weapons would, unfortunately, ignore the armour of marines too.
Another Reason why scouts are better here is that they don't provide a great threat; 4 squads of 10 scouts costs the player 420 points and gives him ample cheap outflanking units to hide until objectives need to be grabbed.
Taken for this reason? Yes.
Should it be taken for this reason? Yes.
Better Option for this Reason? Potentially. Check your Meta.
Damage Output
Tactical marines have BS4, and can carry heavy weapons. Unfortunately, they can't run 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons, so their damage is split between a long range weapon, like a missile launcher or lascannon, and a short ranged weapon like a plasma gun or melta gun.
Also, Heavy Weapons ensure that you're either wasting points on a heavy bolter, or that you're wasting 8 boltguns. This said, it would be silly not to take advantage of the heavy weapon or special weapon slot available to the player, if they have the points. (even a heavy bolter is better than nothing.)
Taken for this Reason? Yes.
Should it be taken for this reason? Sorta. Always take on because why the feth not
Better Option for this reason? Undoubtedly.
Damage Soak
T4, one wound and a 3+ save. They aren't threatening enough to be targeted over that vindicator you're trying to protect.
Taken for this Reason? I sure hope not.
Should it be taken for this reason? God no.
Better option for this reason? Read: Just about anything in Marine's Heavy Support, save for maybe a whirlwind against the wrong opponent.
Area Denial
Again, Tactical Marines are really not threatening enough for this purpose.
Taken for this reason? Probably not.
Should it be? Nope.
Better Option? Very hard to find a good one, but if you're willing to fork out the dough and points, 6 centurion devastators will deny an area like no one's business.
Actually Dangerous for either of the above?
Nope.
Nope, Nope and nope.
Phasing:
Phasing is the art of scaring your opponent by presenting them with something they think is rather dangerous, even though it really isn't. Phasers tend to be good damage soaks, but capable of delivering something scary if they're ignored.
Excellent examples include (in last edition) A land raider delivering Cassius and 5 assault terminators. or in this edition, once again I bring up centurion devastators (expensive, but very dangerous if left unchecked.).
Of course, Tactical marines aren't that dangerous, so they make a poor phaser.
Taken for this reason? Occasionally, actually.
Should it? Probably not.
Better option? Several.
Assault
Assault is dead in 40k, but some units can pull it off. Unfortunately, tactical marines are not one of those units, being neither designed nor capable of it.
Taken for this reason? By 12 year olds who've just read some fluff.
Should it? nope.
Better option? Scout marines are better. Seriously, WS3/4 isn't that big unless your opponent is WS7 or better, and marines are dead against anything that is WS7 anyway. they're identical mathematically otherwise, except scouts can get an extra attack each round - which will make up for the difference in hit score against WS3.
Meatshield?
Meatshielding differs from damage soaking in that it is putting bodies between your cherished unit and your opponent. this can give you the time you need to do a withdrawl, or to launch a counter charge on the unit. Marines aren't dangerous, which means they're usuallys till around by turn 3. Therefore, they make a great, expendable meatshield.
Taken for this reason? Yes.
Should it? Yes.
Better Option? Here, marines have the benefit of being slightly more capable than scout marines and slightly more survivable. Yes, they are the best option.
Versatility
Here's where Marines Shine. They might not put out the damage of a devastator team, or have the survivability and dangerousness combines to be a firesoak, but they can score, shoot big weapons and can meatshield if required.
Taken for this reason? Yes.
Should it? Most definitely.
Better option? Sternguard are Tactical Marines on steroids when combined with kantor, but you still need actual troops.
In short, marines are capable units that can cause some damage and generally put in a good showing. They won't win the game by being dangerous, they'll win it for you by being inconspicuous, and in a game where scoring is needed 83% of the time, that's pretty big.
That said, no. Tactical marine spam will not work. What - might - work, is 6 5-man tactical marine squads over 3 10 man squads. This allows you to get 6 missile launchers as well as 6 razorbacks if you're intot hat (without really paying a premium) and the only downside is that you don't have any ten man squads. (of course, you can run a pair of ten man squads there, but they'll usually combat squad at any rate.)
11860
Post by: Martel732
"However, like I've pointed out before, Tau, Eldar and Demons aren't the only armies, and against the rest SM are more than valid. Just because we can't beat the 3 lists that every other army struggles with, that does not render us weak as a whole."
It does when those are the lists to beat. And all the other lists marines are good against are other meqs or 5th edition lists.
Oh, and don't forget Necrons/GK, either. They can still field lists that are hard for C:SM. The 6th edition C:SM codex is neither creative nor appropriate for the realities of 6th edition.
To answer one of your points, warp spiders have huge movement and spam S6. They can get other tricks, but mainly just do what the rest of the Eldar do, spam high Strength and make T4 useless.
As for drop pods, I don't really fear them with BA, so why would the Eldar truly care? You are also praying to go first, because once the holofields kick in, you're done.
Getting only half your force on turn 1 is serious piecemealing. They get at least one turn to wail on only half your force. I know this because I beat drop pod lists to death with BA, who are terrible.
77159
Post by: Paradigm
DP do give them a turn attacking only half your force, but on the other hand, you can and should be using them to attack only a small portion of the enemy force, so it balances out. Unless you aren't using much terrain, you should be able to block LOS for a good deal of the enemy force, and the pods themselves can provide a lot of cover to units behind them.
Drop pods are the best option for force concentration, and you can easily bring the half of your army against a third of theirs, and in most cases block off/be out of range of another third or so.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Drop armies have never been able to get half their army against a third of mine. They usually utterly lack blast weapons, so there is no reason not to stack my BA shoulder to shoulder as a welcoming committee.
Drop pods, due to the model, don't really do a good job of blocking LOS themselves.
And the more terrain there is on the table, the WORSE it is for the pod player, as you have fewer places to drop.
54708
Post by: TheCustomLime
@Martel
Just because an army does poorly against your list doesn't mean it's a bad list. For example, an Eldar Jetbike list vs an IG Leman Russ spam list. It's a shooting gallery really especially if you can castle up behind an ADL. Does that mean Jetbike lists are bad? No, they would do well against foot armies due the insane amount of shots they can pump out.
My posted army would do well against a lot of Necron lists since it denies them the range and vehicles the 'Crons need to carry the day.
55041
Post by: The Shrike
Martel732 wrote:Drop armies have never been able to get half their army against a third of mine. They usually utterly lack blast weapons, so there is no reason not to stack my BA shoulder to shoulder as a welcoming committee.
Drop pods, due to the model, don't really do a good job of blocking LOS themselves.
And the more terrain there is on the table, the WORSE it is for the pod player, as you have fewer places to drop.
That was a poorly constructed drop pod list then. 3 TFCs is COMMON now; especially in pod lists because it's a cheap way to up your T1 numbers. If you bunch up, have fun with the 50-60 wounds I'm going to put on you with my TFCs followed by the arrival of 5 pods full of goodness.
As to cover, the more the better, because I can use it to tactically block my own LOS and focus fire on the models you don't want to lose.
You need to play more games against expert players with their lists before judging the efficacy of an army.
11860
Post by: Martel732
The Shrike wrote:Martel732 wrote:Drop armies have never been able to get half their army against a third of mine. They usually utterly lack blast weapons, so there is no reason not to stack my BA shoulder to shoulder as a welcoming committee.
Drop pods, due to the model, don't really do a good job of blocking LOS themselves.
And the more terrain there is on the table, the WORSE it is for the pod player, as you have fewer places to drop.
That was a poorly constructed drop pod list then. 3 TFCs is COMMON now; especially in pod lists because it's a cheap way to up your T1 numbers. If you bunch up, have fun with the 50-60 wounds I'm going to put on you with my TFCs followed by the arrival of 5 pods full of goodness.
As to cover, the more the better, because I can use it to tactically block my own LOS and focus fire on the models you don't want to lose.
You need to play more games against expert players with their lists before judging the efficacy of an army.
The marines don't seem to be doing to well at the expert level either.
Against such a list, it's not too hard to space out to minimize the effects of the small templates of a TFC. I've played against triple TFC. They cause damage, but they are stationary targets and still only have 2W. Over the course of an entire game, a Riptide or even Wave Serpent will do more damage because the TFC will die. Once you start gaming for the elite codices, nothing the marines can throw at you is really that impressive.
Your five pods have to have things from C: SM in them, right? I'm not fearing your goodness. I still have more respect for the Space Puppies. It's too bad for pod lists that the fancy new marine weapon is salvo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote:@Martel
Just because an army does poorly against your list doesn't mean it's a bad list. For example, an Eldar Jetbike list vs an IG Leman Russ spam list. It's a shooting gallery really especially if you can castle up behind an ADL. Does that mean Jetbike lists are bad? No, they would do well against foot armies due the insane amount of shots they can pump out.
My posted army would do well against a lot of Necron lists since it denies them the range and vehicles the 'Crons need to carry the day.
Maybe; I'm just very unconvinced by the lack of firepower in the C: SM codex. Or at least Xeno-level firepower. Also, I still maintain that if the list doesn't do well against BA, that's not a good list. The BA are miserable compared to the necrons.
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