Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

Chaos have no real way to deal with eldar or tau whereas loyalists have drop pod sallys and white scar grav bike armies to fight them, all csm have are nurgle and hellturkeys with the occasional belly and black mace DP

It isn't better. It's generally seen as worse, but if you ask me it's just different.

Yes there is a lot of bad stuff in there but the good bits are seriously good.

And I refuse to take a helldrake !!

You lose out on Storm Shields, gravguns, Chapter Tactics, Drop Pods, Thunderfire Cannons...

Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm). They have limited ability to protect characters from challenges and can be swept if they lose.

A point tax on having options is baked into the underlying cost of every model, then those options are mediocre and overcosted. The sheer quantity of options is deceptive, as few are ever actually useful. Options equivalent to Chapter Masters or Artificer armour don't even exist. The apparent depth of the book is a deception created by the huge number of useless and overcosted options bloating every unit entry. The few that aren't useless become more or less mandatory, like Mark of Nurgle on Obliterators.

The most potent swiss army knife unit, the Obliterator, gets a 'fluffy' restriction slapped on it that has never previously existed. Most of the other Chaos-specific units are just garbage, see Warp Talons, Mutilators, Possessed, and Defilers.

The Heldrake is a high mark that little of the rest of the codex really approaches.

Multiple Landraider variants, better standard (troop) marines and not having a boon table with the attached champions of suicide rule.

Chaos is good when you run a plaguemarine/heldrake combo. Most other marks are not up to the MoN standard. Want to run an IF or Salamander army? Here you go, want to run Sons or Zerkers? Have fun with your uphill battle. C:SM at least makes theming an option without handicapping yourself.

brother marcus wrote:
Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

What? Have you been smoking and not sharing? The Chaos Space Marine Codex is terrible compared to the Loyalist one, and removes rules for legions. Terrible customization compared to the loyalist codex.

Do the thousand sons still get a 4++? If so I can not ever see calling them "bad". I played a friend last week who was using the old codex and took 20 of them with Ahriman... I could not kill that dang blob of beef.

(Disclaimer that was at apocalypse points level with no superheavies, I never said that was the best use of 750 points)

Is the OP being sarcastic or is he serious?

 MWHistorian wrote:
Is the OP being sarcastic or is he serious?

I hope he's joking.

Almost had a heart attack when I read the title.

Lucarikx

 dementedwombat wrote:
Do the thousand sons still get a 4++? If so I can not ever see calling them "bad". I played a friend last week who was using the old codex and took 20 of them with Ahriman... I could not kill that dang blob of beef.

(Disclaimer that was at apocalypse points level with no superheavies, I never said that was the best use of 750 points)

you know that they die to normal fire like any other meq? a unit of missilsides or some waveserpents don't care if they shout at 200pts csm or 300+pts 1ksons.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Do the thousand sons still get a 4++? If so I can not ever see calling them "bad". I played a friend last week who was using the old codex and took 20 of them with Ahriman... I could not kill that dang blob of beef.

(Disclaimer that was at apocalypse points level with no superheavies, I never said that was the best use of 750 points)

They still have the 4++. That being said, they are rife with internal problems. To start with, they cost 150 for the aspiring sorcerer and 4 thousand sons. Every additional Thousand Son costs 23 points. The icon of flame is soulblaze that isn't worth 15 points, and the only other options to customize is 10 points for gift of mutation which might spawn your aspiring sorcerer or do nothing or melta bombs. They have a 4++ invuln but with cover being a 4+ or 5+ this doesn't really mean all that much and they still die to ap4, 5, 6 like any other marine and D weapons blow them off the map. They have ap3 bolters but are slow and purposeful meaning they can't overwatch and the aspiring sorcerer is forced to roll upon the worst psker table in the game. He is only permitted to roll on the lore of Tzeentch. One roll can't be taken (2 warp charges), the primaris is unreliable and bad (it is a blast that is random d6+1S and some extra rules), the boon of mutation can only be used on characters 2" from your sorcerer and has 1/6 chance of doing nothing and possibly makes them into spawn and is a toughness test if failedd you take a wound, the only decent one is the doombolt of tzeentch so you better hope you get that. Along with that, they are only unlocked as troops if you take a Sorcerer of Tzeentch which forces 1 of their 1-3 spells to be rolled on the lore of tzeentch psyker table which is generally bad. Oh and they can't run so slow and purposeful really hoses them. They aren't the worst option in our codex but they are nowhere near even decent level. Playing them is an uphill battle.

 Brother SRM wrote:
It isn't better. It's generally seen as worse, but if you ask me it's just different.

I was going to say, that's what I generally hear too... definitely doesn't blow the loyalist one away, that's for sure.

The only edge Chaos has over C: CSM is the Heldrake, which invalidates a lot of what Space Marines can bring to the table.

But everything else Space Marines have just crap all over everything Chaos has.

I haven't heard anything but complaints about it since it came out.

That being said, it seems to perform about as well as any other codex in actual games.

I'm going to expand into it eventually. Thousand Sons look too tasty to ignore!

I could probably write my English Essay on how bad the CSM codex is, but I'll just sum it up in 4 points:
1) Fluffwise: the codex is terrible, there is no way to individualize your men as a warband or legion besides taking centric units that every legion/warband has. The cult legions can only be represented by their troops and anyother unit can only take a Mark. Not to mention GW outright lied by saying Legion tactics would be to difficult to balance (like GW does that anyway) and then turns around and gives C:SM Chapter tactics
2) Gamewise: so many units are hilariously bad it's not even funny. When playing casual games with CSM you are limited to either taking the 5 best units and being "that guy" or bringing something else and getting stomped. Competitively we have 1 maybe 2 lists that can compete and they get blown away by all other 6E codices (except for DA) using competitive lists. For uber fluffy play only 1 of the non cult legions has ANY representation at all in the form of Abaddon. The Cult legions are limited to 1 SC and spamming cult troops.
3) Playstyle: in the CSM codex we have 1 way of playing: lining up and charging/shooting. Every other army has some sort of other play style except for CSM
4) GW ignoring us: this isn't related to the codex but dang it, we whined for 4 YEARS to GW about the crappy 4th ED codex about Legion rules and all we got were second rate power ranger robots.
5) All the stuff SM has that we rightfully deserve: (not about Chapter Tactics) for some reason, we do not get tons of units that were developed during the heresy that we don't get even though we have more HH tech than they do.

Well this post got a good laugh from me.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well this post got a good laugh from me.

Yeah, no kidding. do you mean the troll, or those feeding him?

I mean, seriously?

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I could probably write my English Essay on how bad the CSM codex is, but I'll just sum it up in 4 points:
1) Fluffwise: the codex is terrible, there is no way to individualize your men as a warband or legion besides taking centric units that every legion/warband has. The cult legions can only be represented by their troops and anyother unit can only take a Mark. Not to mention GW outright lied by saying Legion tactics would be to difficult to balance (like GW does that anyway) and then turns around and gives C:SM Chapter tactics
2) Gamewise: so many units are hilariously bad it's not even funny. When playing casual games with CSM you are limited to either taking the 5 best units and being "that guy" or bringing something else and getting stomped. Competitively we have 1 maybe 2 lists that can compete and they get blown away by all other 6E codices (except for DA) using competitive lists. For uber fluffy play only 1 of the non cult legions has ANY representation at all in the form of Abaddon. The Cult legions are limited to 1 SC and spamming cult troops.
3) Playstyle: in the CSM codex we have 1 way of playing: lining up and charging/shooting. Every other army has some sort of other play style except for CSM
4) GW ignoring us: this isn't related to the codex but dang it, we whined for 4 YEARS to GW about the crappy 4th ED codex about Legion rules and all we got were second rate power ranger robots.
5) All the stuff SM has that we rightfully deserve: (not about Chapter Tactics) for some reason, we do not get tons of units that were developed during the heresy that we don't get even though we have more HH tech than they do.

Actually, I think I'd like to hear the long version.
I think my dislike for the Chaos Codex can be described with two words: "complete disgust."

Makumba wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Do the thousand sons still get a 4++? If so I can not ever see calling them "bad". I played a friend last week who was using the old codex and took 20 of them with Ahriman... I could not kill that dang blob of beef.

(Disclaimer that was at apocalypse points level with no superheavies, I never said that was the best use of 750 points)

you know that they die to normal fire like any other meq? a unit of missilsides or some waveserpents don't care if they shout at 200pts csm or 300+pts 1ksons.

Just want to point out that they come in units of 20. 20 3+ saves will take a long time to chew through with weight of fire, especially when it's backed up with a 4++ so your regular anti armor can't even get you a few "easy kills". So yes, you can kill them (just like anything else in the game if you shoot at it enough), but it takes way too many shots for something you really don't want to be shooting at since there's more pain coming your way.

By about turn 5 I finally managed to deplete it down to ~5 models, then he jumped Ariman into the 15 plague marines a foot away.

You know, come to think of it I really should do a writeup of that battle. 3v3 with 3,000 points a player and i took pictures...

Consider for less points you can get 20 PM who are considerably more durable than Tsons and use the same FOC slot you'll start seeing where people who actually play Chaos are coming from.

Also Ahriman cannot join PM, another nifty little bonus of our book. Mark your characters and they can only join units with that mark (or unmarked). Neat huh?

 dementedwombat wrote:

By about turn 5 I finally managed to deplete it down to ~5 models, then he jumped Ariman into the 15 plague marines a foot away.

Just for future reference, he can't do that. The differing Marks prevent Ahriman joining the squad.

Also, after seeing large squads of thousand sons get rocked by devourer gants and hormagaunts, I'm not impressed by 23 point MEQs that die like 13 point ones. (Look I can throw up anecdotal evidence too!)

Interesting note about the conflicting marks. I did not actually know that.

I can only comment on what I've experienced, not being a chaos player or having much familiarity with the army. In my experience they were an incredibly annoying "pull your hair out trying to kill them" brick of pain. And those ap3 boltguns on a squad you really don't want to devote the massive amount of resources it takes to remove can sneak up on you.

I'll just stop talking while I still sound like I might vaguely know what I'm talking about.

1Ksons good? 23 point good? No. Sure, they have staying power, but no killing power. You know what else does that for a quarter of the cost? Cultists.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You lose out on Storm Shields, gravguns, Chapter Tactics, Drop Pods, Thunderfire Cannons...

Don't forget: Sternguard
Razorbacks
Multiple Land Raider Variants
and (I personally think this) Better unique artifacts for HQs

I feel like CSM is very underwhelming (with the exception of a few units). Its turned into my fun army.

Pity not the traitor

Hahah sorry guys the festive drinking is still happening BUT some of the things in the codex are so much better

Yes you lose ATSKNF but I don't care because I would never use normal marines many would you when you can have plague/ noise and Khorne berserkers as troops ??

Nor do I care about the enourmous bullet magnet that is land raiders

Yes raptors and warp tallons suck but so does almost every cc unit in 6th

Havocs can have special weapons why aren't SM allowed to do this ??

Also I greatly consider demonic boon to be better than the space marine armoury. Yes it's completely based on chance but you could come out with something face destroying

Demon princes rock although very expensive

And I actually think defilers are good!! Especially seen as though they can regen their lost hull points

Demon Princes don't have Eternal Warrior, so they can be one shotted.
Khorne zerkers kinda suck.
The Havocs are good, I'll give ya that.
Defilers are grossly expensive for what little they offer. They pay premium points for weapons they can't really use. Forge Fiend would be better, and that's not saying a lot.

Yes a demon prince can be one shoted but with wings if its not in cc it will be moving so fast you can't really hit him

And ws5 and 3 attacks on the charge and furious charge sucks?? It's considerably better than the cc elite known as vanguard

Oh boy, I love these topics. This is a particularly grindy gear of mine.

The CSM Codex is pretty awful and only comes off worse the longer you compare it to other 6th Ed codices, with Marines as a particularly painful comparison to make. It is an embarrassment of internal balance, awful game mechanics, completely fails to bring the background to the tabletop, and actively punishes the player for his choices. The few diamonds in the book are far between and well-known, so either the CSM player chows down on his book of mediocrity and gets stomped off the table, or takes one of the 'good' armies and consequently despised by his peers for being unimaginative and spammy.

The book is boring because while it has a variety of units, it does not have a variety of playstyles. It is easy to see the book and think "Well a Tzeentch army is clearly different to a Slaanesh army, is different to an Iron Warriors army" etc. But it is not. Regardless of stats, all of them are a derivative of 'MEQ units walking or Rhino-ing up'.
There are no Drop Pods or *good* Deep Strike options. There is no potential to Outflank or Infiltrate beyond a random D3 roll or taking Slaaneshii Steeds. There is no variety in transports and the few that do exist, are awful. All of the Troop options are stuck as infantry and so you are always based on a slow core middling its way upfield.
Conversely the loyalists retain Rhinos and Land Raiders, except their Land Raiders are worth fielding. They also pick up Razorbacks to give it a twist. They can field Drop Pods and back that up with Teleport Homers and Locators. They can field a purely Bike-mounted army. They can field an entire army of Infiltrators, while the Khan gives you Scout and Outflank. Enjoy your troops arriving by Stormraven, or by Land Speeder Storm. Chaos is utterly boring in it's deployment and mobility options.

Awful balance. Just look at the difference between Nurgle and anything else, or between the Fast Attack and Elites choices, or between Berzerkers and Plague Marines. The lists are basically a choice of 'Which template are my HQ and Troops going to fill', of which you can choose Plague Marines, Plague Zombies or Noise Marines for the daring. Then stuff the obligatory Heldrakes and Nurgle Obliterators until you meet the points requirement.
It is beyond forgiveness that units like Possessed, Warp Talons, Thousand Sons and Helbrutes even exist with their relevant rules. The likes of Berzerkers, Mutilators, 'Fiends and Apostles are not as bad but remain an atrocious deal compared with their competition. On the other hand, a Heldrake is a marauding slaughterer of men and some of the best 170pts you will spend in any army. Games tend to be a collection of cheerleaders rooting for your Obliterator-Heldrake megateam to kill everyone while sitting out the way.

It also fails to bring the fluff. No Legions are represented besides a Black Legion book that contradicts its own fluff completely. The Legion representation is limited to a single unit plus a Special Character because a Mark does not equal a Cult. A Nurgle Terminator is not Death Guard, because they have apparently lost Fearless and FNP while squeezing into their armour. Khornes Chosen are WS4, lack Fearless and Furious Charge, and cannot buy Chainaxes. The Rubric Terminators learnt to feel fear again while losing Inferno Bolts and psychic abilities. Ahriman forgot that he was Magister of the divination temple, and instead fancied himself as a Witchfire specialist. The book is rife with these issues.
In a world where we have special rules to distinguish between Loyalist at a *Company* level, it is insulting to provide nothing at all that distinguishes an Iron Warrior from an Emperors Child.


People see a Chaos Marine at 13pts with Mark options and think it's glorious. Except they end up at the same price because the Champion is forced on you. They are the same cost for a squad, except they lose ATSKNF, Combat Squads, *Chapter Tactics* and instead gain a suicidal Champion. Marks can quite happily be reduced to 'Mark of Nurgle' because it's the only one that matters, and then ignore that one anyway because Plague Marines exist. They have no BB Allies besides Daemons, and then cannot join them anyway. They don't get Inquisition allies, they don't get an entire Forge World PDF to provide Chapter Tactics and they don't get GW lavishing love over every orifice.
So we have a Chaos Marine that trades away all his special rules, all his deployment options, all his friends and costs 3pts more, and gained T5 for his trouble. When the Loyalist could just roll Iron Hand for free and be of comparable resilience for the cost.


RAGE

4 attacks on the charge. Rage. They still suck as theyre 21ppm, with no decent close combat or special weapons choices. (chainaxes arent good)

"10 points for gift of mutation which might spawn your aspiring sorcerer or do nothing or melta bombs"

Gift CANNOT spawn your model. Roll again.

I find Noise Marines to be the most annoying and aggravating unit in the CSM codex with the Heldrake as a close second.

I think next time they do either of the marine codex's they can learn from each other.

Chaos elites are actually elites not marines with posh bolt guns and the same stat line.

But I admit the codex does lack variety and struggles with mobility (hence my zombie screen)

But a mark of chaos is still better than a chapter tactic IMO

I also admit I will miss razorbacks :(

And potentially 41 ws5 attacks with prefered enemy is still pretty hurty. So are warp talons but they are SUPER EXPENSIVE!!

Sorry but just no...I like the CSM book ok but it pales in comparison to the new Marine Book.

Glaring Issues with the CSM book.

1.) Champion of Chaos Rule is the worst special rule in the entire game. Oh look at my cool character I spent points on...oh wait you charged him with a greater daemon...I have to challenge and die...yay. Oh wait I won...now I'm a naked daemon prince...or a spawn.

2.) You like their elites? Terminators are the only decent Elite choice...everything else there would get taken as troops or not at all. Berzerkers are bad for the cost.. You compare them to vanguard vets...who are 2 points cheaper per model...have the same number of attacks on the charge...and are better if charged, can take jump packs, and melee upgrades. And still are not considered good. Berzerkers are too slow to be good at assault in this edition (also other than WS 5 I can make a squad of CSM do the same thing for 15 points). The issue is that CSM elites are not elites at all they used to be troops. So if you take out the units that were troops (and only ever get taken as troops) you get: Terminators, Helbrutes, Mutilators. Still like them better?

3.)Troops, suck cultists are OK...CSM are straight worse than Tactical squads. Sure you can take cult troops...but then you lock into specific HQ (which was not the case in the last book.)

4.) Fast Attack might be the only slot CSM is better with Heldrakes, Bikes and Spawn...but this slot is overloaded.

4.) Marks of Chaos are straight up worse than chapter tactics. Because chapter tactics are Free. Lets say you wanted to mark you entire army you are looking at paying 50-100 points extra in some cases to do so.

Marcus - hatred from VOTLW, not PE. PE is with the right warlord trait, on a table where only potion 3 is usually any good (6 isnt bad)

and it is only PE space marines...which means it is useless when not facing space marines.

Silly codex with vanilla options and uninteresting gimmicks that have been copied verbatim from 3rd edition.

Basic CSM no longer have free Boltgun +Pistol and CCW (although it's only one point extra), which cuts their utility down to even less than a vanilla tac squad.

Also, the champion model is a joke, and I don't know why they released it. I guess the codex is better than the previous one, and included some relatively interesting new stuff, but they short sighted it, and didn't really change the play style of CSM at all, which I've always thought has been boring and predictable. We have no drop pods, still. We have no flyers besides the helldrake. We have the same bloated units that all serve similar purposes. More than anything, we still have predictable choices, like plague marines and Obliterators that will undoubtedly be staples of any CSM army for a long time because no one is stupid enough to bother with anything else.

They also removed lesser and greater daemons, which I thought added a bit of flavor, even if no one in their right mind would use them.

Not sure if OP is trolling or a comic genius.

I have to say though, as an idiot who refuses to give up melee marines I'd much rather have Juggerlords, Spawn, Marines with Rage, Furious Charge and rerolls to charge distance, and Cultists to sit on objectives than Honour Guard and a whole Codex full of subpar melee units.

Further, let's be honest; CT: White Scars and CT: Iron Hands are better than the rest in the same way that Plague Marines are better than the other Cult Troops. Grav-guns are nice and all, but if you're taking them on anything that isn't a bike (i.e. play White Scars or go home!) you're taking a subpar special weapon. TH/SS Terminators more or less require a mandatory Land Raider to function, and while they still "work" it's a trick that's as old as the LAST Codex, so it's not like people don't know how to handle it. I'd even go as far as to say that CSM aren't worse than Tacticals, since they can get two special weapons (yeah yeah, no heavy weapon, I'll get there!) instead of one. Double special weapons lets CSM specialize in a way that Tactical Squads just can't, and with extra CCWs they're better in melee than Tacts as well. ATSKNF is probably the most overvalued special rule in the game; it's good, but it's not good enough to, on its own, make Tacticals better than CSM, especially not now that Fearless doesn't kill you in CC anymore.

Moving on to the heavy weapons of the Tactical Squad, having a unit with two of the same Special Weapon is vastly superior to having one with a heavy and a special, as it lets you be better at the task you're supposed to be doing. Double special troops to take midfield objectives, cultists to sit on and hold backfield objectives. Really, CSM are slightly cheaper Grey Hunters that lose ATSKNF and swap some faction-specific options around. If the argument was that CSM were inferior to Grey Hunters then sure, I'd agree, but so are every other MEQ troops choice in the game (barring possibly Grey Knights).

In closing: Is the Chaos book worse than it could be? Probably, same goes for C:SM. Is there a lot of stuff that sucks in it? Yep, same as the C:SM. Are there loads of builds that are worse than the best build in the book? You bet, same as the C:SM. Is it significantly weaker than C:SM? I wouldn't say so. What it is, though, is a missed opportunity, but (as a BT player) so is C:SM.

Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

Yea vanguard can have jump packs that you have to pay for. But they don't have ws5 and hatred or fearless and your saying they aren't worth 2 points

Also your forgetting possessed which have the potencial to be awesome depending on their gifts
And what about plague marines and there absolute resilience.
Noise marines and the shear amount of fire they can pump out yes there expensive but very effective


And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

brother marcus wrote:
Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

Yea vanguard can have jump packs that you have to pay for. But they don't have ws5 and hatred or fearless and your saying they aren't worth 2 points

Also your forgetting possessed which have the potencial to be awesome depending on their gifts
And what about plague marines and there absolute resilience.
Noise marines and the shear amount of fire they can pump out yes there expensive but very effective


And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

Hatred: Space Marines needs to be paid for. It ranged from +1 to +5pts depending on the model. It is not a bad upgrade but it alternates between 'worthless' (Anyone not a Marine) and 'useful, for one turn, if you can reach combat'.
The Daemon Prince is a bad upgrade because he loses any Daemon Weapon he used to have, loses any Steeds and loses the protection of his friends. He will also immediately die if you either lack a Prince model, or cannot place a large base within 3". Considering he changes in combat, there are often enemy models in the way and so he dies instead of ascending.

Vanguard are also largely held to be an awful unit. Being an alternative to Vanguard is not the same as being a good unit. Incidentally, Vanguard with Jump might be more expensive but then actually stand a chance of reaching combat. They also have more attacks.
Possessed do not have the chance to be awesome. They are slow, unprotected, and expensive. If by some dark miracle they reach combat, you've earned S5 and a random buff you have no control over.

Plague Marines and Noise Marines are nice, that's why you never see a list without them. See the comments regarding lack of variety and internal balance.
Troops suck because they are Marines in profile only, with none of the usual rules. Chapter Tactics alone is worth that 1pt difference, the loss of ATSKNF and Combat Squads is salt in the wound. They only have more attacks at the expense of either Bolters or a 2pt investment, and the 2 Special weapons is a genuine silver lining. Of course vanilla gets Multi-Meltas, Plasma Cannons and Grav, but double-Plasma is a nice touch still.

Mark of Nurgle is nice, the other 3 are extremely sub-standard. Even then a 14pt Iron Hand is proportionally tougher than a 17pt Nurgle Marine, except he also has ATSKNF, Combat Squads and IWND HQ on top.

brother marcus wrote:
Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

Yea vanguard can have jump packs that you have to pay for. But they don't have ws5 and hatred or fearless and your saying they aren't worth 2 points

Also your forgetting possessed which have the potencial to be awesome depending on their gifts
And what about plague marines and there absolute resilience.
Noise marines and the shear amount of fire they can pump out yes there expensive but very effective


And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

What do I see the most of lets see...Tau, Eldar, and Daemons...so yeah don't care about hatred SM very much.

Sure you retain your mark as a Daemon prince....and lose any psychic powers, steed/bike, special CC weapon etc....and you are unengaged so you frequently get shot to death before doing anything...DP roll is bad.

Yes I'm saying I'd rather pay 22 Points for Jump Pack guys than 21 for guys on foot, who will never make it to assault. Both are bad but Vanguard are better.

Possessed are bad...because they are random.
Plague Marines only see play as troops because as an elite who cares...they are good objective holders and takers...which needs them scoring.

Noise Marines are bad in my experience salvo is bad on non-relentless units. Other Units out range them and take them down.

How do they have more CC attacks (unless you pay for it). Two special weapons is ok...but still not great. Combat squads is a great ability and chapter tactics improve your troops.

Cultists are OK but easily killed by top armies. Fearless is bad when you get charged by some units. And they don't kill anything.

You always pay for a Mark except on cult troops. Plague Marines are good. But you still pay 24 points each for them. Which means fewer points for other things.

This is all coming from the guy that thinks defilers are good. Spending 200+ points on an AV 12 walker that can't even use most of the guns it has...that you paid for. Thousand sons? Please. They die just as quick to small arms as normal marines...but have no special weapons, cant fire overwatch, coupled with no close combat ability and cost ALOT. I could go on and on but there are a billion threads dedicated to this very topic. The loyalist codex is superior, laughingly so. So much so that im thinking about using their codex for my chaos models. It would fit the the fluff better and be more effective.

I play a Thousand Sons army (sort of).

Trust me, they aren't durable or killy. All taking Thousand Sons as your main infantry means is that the enemy heavy weapons are free to target your support units.

Brother M - my juggerlord, Axe of Blind Fury has between 8 and 13 S6 AP2 attacks, while being T5, 4W,3+/4++ (because we're not allowed non-termi 2+ saves, despite having the option in 3rd)

If he turns into a DP, he drops to A6 at best on the charge, and drops to a 5++. Against the things that kill me that is a crucial drop.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Not sure if OP is trolling or a comic genius.

For sure one, but maybe both....

I am stunned people are replying to be completely honest.

Next: Woah, my gravgun counts ask white scars biker list is terrible now that my opponent has servo skulls, should I sell my space marines?

there seem to be a lot of "trollish" topics recently a large number of "proxy" or counts as (for various reasons and guises) threads recently.

Is this the normal amount or is there something else going on here.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I play a Thousand Sons army (sort of).

Trust me, they aren't durable or killy. All taking Thousand Sons as your main infantry means is that the enemy heavy weapons are free to target your support units.

So that is why your eyes occasionally drip with black goo...

Oh yeah and Kson sorcerers (troops, Ahriman, and the HQ sorcerer that doesn't feel like one) all blindly declare challenges in arrogance.

brother marcus wrote:
Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

Apparently and understanding of how the game works? I dunno, I wouldn't say its a *bad* codex, but its definitely not *better* than the Space Marines codex. Fluff sections weak, half the units in the book are entirely impractical, if not virtually unusable, and really, its an entirely uninspired book IMO. There was so much more potential for the book, they could have done some really cool things with it, but it comes across as half-baked for the most part. I actually like the loyalist book better, now thats a codex that can get my creative juices flowing (and I play CSM, not loyalist).

And I actually think defilers are good!! Especially seen as though they can regen their lost hull points

If only, unfortunately an opponent that knows what their doing will strip your defiler of all its hull points before you even have a chance to regen it.

Yes a demon prince can be one shoted but with wings if its not in cc it will be moving so fast you can't really hit him

lol for realll???!? You think that??? HAAHA. I have some lovely property in Camden, NJ that I would just LOOOOVE to sell you, great neighborhood, good schools, no crime whatsoever ;P

The CSM Codex is pretty awful and only comes off worse the longer you compare it to other 6th Ed codices, with Marines as a particularly painful comparison to make. It is an embarrassment of internal balance, awful game mechanics, completely fails to bring the background to the tabletop, and actively punishes the player for his choices. The few diamonds in the book are far between and well-known, so either the CSM player chows down on his book of mediocrity and gets stomped off the table, or takes one of the 'good' armies and consequently despised by his peers for being unimaginative and spammy.

Don't forget that the inclusion of Chapter Tactics in the Marines book was a slap to the face of Chaos players everywhere! Apparrently the wildly divergent Chaos Legions (and various renegade warbands) wasn't deserving of representation in the rules, but the relatively more standardized loyalist chapters get to have all sorts of neat little abilities to play with ON TOP OF not one BUT TWO Supplemental books to add even MORE options and VARIATION to the loyalist types, meanwhile the Black Legion book, while certainly interesting, doesn't really add much to the CSM that we didn't already have.

Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

Eldar? I haven't seen a Space Marine army on the table in my area in months actually (unless you count Grey Knights, which I've seen once in that same timeframe).

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

If my grandma had balls she'd be my grandpa.You have a 1 in 18 chance of rolling a Daemon Prince, and thats not including the probability required for you to make it far enough to actually get the chance to make that roll. And woe be unto you if you're in close combat and you can't place the model, and woe be unto you if you spent more than a handful of points on upgrading the champion or whatever that becomes the prince, the worst thing that could happen is to have your Chaos Lord become a Prince.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

4) GW ignoring us: this isn't related to the codex but dang it, we whined for 4 YEARS to GW about the crappy 4th ED codex about Legion rules and all we got were second rate power ranger robots.

Bitch please, trying being a Dark Eldar/Necrons/WHFB Wood Elves or Bretonnia player. 4 years is nothing.

On topic, I think a lot of what the other posters have said sums it up pretty well. From what I've seen, CSM can do perfectly well - even in a competitive setting - but to do so have to confirm to very set criteria with list building.

We speak not of Wood Elves and Bretonnia nor Sisters of Battle. What poor unfortunate souls...

Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

Put the two books side by side. Read them together (at the same time) page for page. I think you'll see what you did wrong there. A lot of people initially had a very positive reaction to the Chaos book when it first came out, but actually using it has since proven many of those reactions wrong. Add to that the fact that many of the newer books have fairly reliable ways of countering the few good builds the book can put out AND the fact that those builds are very predictable and yeah, you may be missing a few things.

Yes a demon prince can be one shoted but with wings if its not in cc it will be moving so fast you can't really hit him

Skyfire interceptor. Enjoy your wings.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

So the ONE TIME this edition I managed to get Kharn across the table and into CC, he challenged (because he HAS to challenge - thanks Phil K ...) a Divy Librarian. A lowly sgt. took the challenge instead. Naturally I killed him and short order. I then became a Demon Prince. Since Kharne lost ALL of his abilities, weapons and superior stat line, he was killed the very next turn.

Note that you don't have to kill a character in CC to be forced to roll on the Boon Table. You just have to have a character kill another character. I once had Huron use his flamer on a squad of tac marines. The sgt. died. I rolled the DP result but as Huron was hiding between two buildings there was no room for the large base and he died. So that was pretty cool.

The ONLY time it's "cool" to roll a DP result is when your Cultist champ rolls it, but we all know what the odds are of a cultist even getting to roll on the chart in the first place. Add to that the fact that you probably still won't have room to place the base and yeah, still think it's a good thing?

The single biggest issue with the book (imo) is the fact that it's based on a 4th/5th ed paradigm. Where most of the other sixth ed books (and even one or two of the freaking FIFTH ED BOOKS) were built to really take advantage of and work (in a positive way) with the 6th ed rules, the Chaos book simply refuses to acknowledge that we've changed editions. Take Warp Talons for example. They would have been BRILLIANT in 4th or 5th ed. Amazing. Instead however, we have a CC unit that has been costed on a 5th edition scale that relies on Deepstriking without scattering in order to use its special ability to close into cc. This in an edition where you can't assault the turn you deepstrike, over-watch exists, anything they are assaulting will be significantly cheaper than they are, and in a book that gives its player no reliable way to avoid deep-strike miss-haps. Again, thanks Phil.

And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

Kelly dropped CSM leadership by one point just so he could charge us a point per man to shoehorn that LD back in. CSM lack ATSKNF but are costed incredibly close to loyalist standards, their upgrade options are FAR too expensive and most of those options are not worth it. In terms of pure points efficiency, CSM generally do not measure up. Especially in an edition where 3+ AP is so common.

So that being said, many people end up with cultists. To that I would say, compare the stats, equipment and abilities of a squad of cultists to the stats, equipment and abilities of a squad of Kroot and if you can still tell me the Cultists are appropriately pointed and "worth it ..." well then, I have a bridge to sell you.

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

Huh? Unless I'm the one missing something here, you ALWAYS have to pay for marks. Always. Sure, if you take a HQ with the appropriate mark, you can take the corresponding cult units as troops instead of elites, but you are still paying for their mark in the elevated cost of the unit. No free lunches here.

I think he meant that Cult Troops all have the mark already built into their cost, therefore making it appear 'free'.

I have to say though, as an idiot who refuses to give up melee marines I'd much rather have Juggerlords, Spawn, Marines with Rage, Furious Charge and rerolls to charge distance, and Cultists to sit on objectives than Honour Guard and a whole Codex full of subpar melee units.

Yeah, I'll give you that one. The loyalist CC marines will still have much better support from the units backing them and they will have better and more varied ways of getting to combat, but yeah, on the whole, your point stands imo.

Further, let's be honest; CT: White Scars and CT: Iron Hands are better than the rest in the same way that Plague Marines are better than the other Cult Troops.

I don't think it's really quite that extreme. I've only played with four of the Traits so far (IH, WS, Ultras and IF), and while I found IH and WS to be pretty powerful, the Ultramarines trait, while requiring a proper amount of timing and forethought, has turned out to consistently be one of the most powerful in the game. IF was really good too, but that's admittedly because it's fairly list and situation dependent and I was definitly in the right situation with the right list. So anyway, I feel you can debate over which CT is the "best", but imo, the fact that you CAN debate it tells me that the CT's are, in general, much better than the marks. I don't know that you can easily debate that there's anything much better for this edition than Nurgle.

And I would argue that Vulkanmanders is still pretty decent as well as possibly IF albeit the two aren't as good. Still though, it is better than having to pay for +1 I or better yet a 6++ save.

 StarTrotter wrote:
And I would argue that Vulkanmanders is still pretty decent as well as possibly IF albeit the two aren't as good. Still though, it is better than having to pay for +1 I or better yet a 6++ save.

Which you can get for free with some of the chapter tactics.

The problem with the Chaos Codex is not that it's defective in some way, it's that no one knows how to make winning armies with it.

See example here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

Apologies if that was sarcasm that I didn't detect, but there is not some zen-mastery of the Codex that requires meditation and discipline to unlock. There is a reason that Chaos Marines rarely place in large tournaments unless it's as an obligatory Allied Heldrake, and it is not because GT winners do not know the army.

What a lot of people forget is that with the allies system and the fact that Chaos Daemons are Battle Brothers, the two books might as well be one with some FOC restrictions.

Sure the CSM codex isn't great. It was never intended to be a stand alone codex.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Apologies if that was sarcasm that I didn't detect, but there is not some zen-mastery of the Codex that requires meditation and discipline to unlock. There is a reason that Chaos Marines rarely place in large tournaments unless it's as an obligatory Allied Heldrake, and it is not because GT winners do not know the army.

Apologies accepted, thanks.

 XT-1984 wrote:
What a lot of people forget is that with the allies system and the fact that Chaos Daemons are Battle Brothers, the two books might as well be one with some FOC restrictions.

Sure the CSM codex isn't great. It was never intended to be a stand alone codex.

Except that's bunk, it's not like the Inquisitor dex where it's intended to be a side-dex. It's supposed to be where both can stand well, but both can stand better.

In this case however, Daemons can stand far better alone then with CSM.

Well if it was intended to be a stand alone codex GW wouldn't sell as many books would they. Judging by their recent marketing I would say that is more than a reasonable assumption.

The allies system was reintroduced to encourage players to need more than one codex. And to perhaps begin a new army based on their small detachment they already own.

It certainly wasn't brought back because of consumer demand.

They could have put CSM and CD in the same codex, like they had done in 2nd, 3rd, and perhaps 4th I can't remember.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Well if it was intended to be a stand alone codex GW wouldn't sell as many books would they. Judging by their recent marketing I would say that is more than a reasonable assumption.

The allies system was reintroduced to encourage players to need more than one codex. And to perhaps begin a new army based on their small detachment they already own.

It certainly wasn't brought back because of consumer demand.

They could have put CSM and CD in the same codex, like they had done in 2nd, 3rd, and perhaps 4th I can't remember.

All before 4th.

And of course, if that was true we wouldn't need single dex eldar, single dex tau, and single dex daemons to rock tournaments.

I thought it was agreed that all the most cut throat competitive army lists do make good use of the allies system.

Taudar is better than just codex Tau. Chaos Daemons with a Heldrake is awesome too.

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Because no amount of complaining here will change their stats or abilities any time soon.

 XT-1984 wrote:
I thought it was agreed that all the most cut throat competitive army lists do make good use of the allies system.

Taudar is better than just codex Tau.

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Because no amount of complaining here will change their stats or abilities any time soon.

Actually taudar is worse in the rankings then tau/tau alliance.

The chaos codex can claim arguably better versions of:

Devastator squads, with units that can carry a mix of heavy and special weaponry and be customized for different roles.

Jump troop assault squads, with double special weapons, more customization, and larger squads. Not sure if they're cheaper.

Combat specific HQs, with more powerful named characters and juggerlords.

Cheaper objective squatting fodder, with cultists.

Air superiority, in heldrakes.

This isn't an argument that either codex is better or worse, just that on these specific points the chaos codex can be said to come ahead if comparing units in a vacuum.

Do you mean Tau with the Farsight supplement? Then that's more competitive than the stand alone codex. Proving my point.

But if you're talking about double force organisation that's just a whole mess that could never be considered fair for competitive playing. And I don't know many tournaments that use over 2k points.

Combat specific HQs, with more powerful named characters and juggerlords.

there is no way for any chaos csm HQ to be better at melee then a SM HQ with thunder hammer eternal shield scout , hit and run or IWND.

Makumba wrote:

there is no way for any chaos csm HQ to be better at melee then a SM HQ with thunder hammer eternal shield scout , hit and run or IWND.

Black Mace Daemon Prince, with his 'fail a Toughness test and be removed from play'.
Black Legion Daemon Prince with Skull of Kerngar and Spineshiver blade.
Abaddon the Despoiler
Be'lakor

Bloodthirster with two Greater Rewards.

And the humble Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh and Murder Sword will make short work of any SM HQ who doesn't have Eternal Warrior.

 XT-1984 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

there is no way for any chaos csm HQ to be better at melee then a SM HQ with thunder hammer eternal shield scout , hit and run or IWND.

Black Mace Daemon Prince, with his 'fail a Toughness test and be removed from play'.
Black Legion Daemon Prince with Skull of Kerngar and Spineshiver blade.
Abaddon the Despoiler
Be'lakor

Bloodthirster with two Greater Rewards.

And the humble Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh and Murder Sword will make short work of any SM HQ who doesn't have Eternal Warrior.

Or you know, a bike...

A bike won't save them from Instant Death if that's what you mean.

The Chaos Lord can take a bike too if it is the maneuverability you are considering.

What a lot of people forget is that with the allies system and the fact that Chaos Daemons are Battle Brothers, the two books might as well be one with some FOC restrictions.

Sure the CSM codex isn't great. It was never intended to be a stand alone codex.

It WAS intended as a stand alone codex as are all of the main codexes. Also, yes, Demons and CSM are battle brothers. That nets us what? Pretty much just a Heldrake for your demon army and a possible way to buff one of the dumbest units in CSM in the warp talons (using Fatey/Grimoire).

The two armies have no synergy at all (despite being battle brothers) and, baring Heldrakes, you are almost certainly better off just using straight demons.

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Which is the crux of like ... half the responses in this thread.

Okay okay I give. I only looked through the chaos codex because I was going to start a pre heresy death guard army and do a chaos side led by thypon with loads of zombies and basically what I was going to use looked quiet effective and fun to play

But I was also going to do a loyal army and use garro and loads of tacticals and with my ears ringing at the comments in here I will probably use the loyalist one now lol

Thanks for the enlightenment

Tycho wrote:

It WAS intended as a stand alone codex as are all of the main codexes. Also, yes, Demons and CSM are battle brothers. That nets us what? Pretty much just a Heldrake for your demon army and a possible way to buff one of the dumbest units in CSM in the warp talons (using Fatey/Grimoire).

If you don't think the two codices share any synergy then you haven't read them close enough.

Not many decent CSM lists would be made worse by a unit of Flesh Hounds. Or a Lord of Change. Or a small unit of Plague Bearers for back field objectives.
Huron Black Heart or Ahriman infiltrating a unit of 20 Bloodletters or Daemonettes?

Likewise for Daemons the Heldrake is awesome of course.
Cultitsts can be quite hard to kill for their cost.
Black Mace Daemon Prince has his uses.
Kharn the Betrayer in a unit of 35 Cultists is a lot of Fearless, Scoring, Wounds that is no slouch in melee and is dirt cheap.


But I forgot the only builds worth talking about on the internet are the ones that will win national tournaments for which the game was never intended anyway.

 XT-1984 wrote:

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Mmm... that's a little too extreme.

The CSM Codex is not really bad, per se, it's just not great. There are great codexes where you can build screamerstars, Farsight bombs, serpentspam, etc. CSMs don't have one of those, certainly, but it's not like you take CSMs and lose every game. You win some, you lose some, and other armies may win a little more than you.

If you look at the CSM players in the third tier of the NOVA open, the w/l ratio between them and many of the top tier players was only one win. I think what really separated them was points scored for capturing VPs and what not.

I think you guys are forgetting the biggest. Must always issuse and accept a challenge. A lord charged into my squad with khan, could have killed khan if he didnt have to issue a challenge......who I fed a SGt to him, letting khan eat the chosen

If you don't think the two codices share any synergy then you haven't read them close enough.

Not many decent CSM lists would be made worse by a unit of Flesh Hounds. Or a Lord of Change. Or a small unit of Plague Bearers for back field objectives.
Huron Black Heart or Ahriman infiltrating a unit of 20 Bloodletters or Daemonettes?

Lost on why you would do that though. Yes, I'm a fan of Flesh hounds. Not sure CSM needs mush help in the fast attack slot though. Seriously.
A Lord of Change is incredibly expensive. If CSM is your primary then the LoC still isn't going to give you a big enough bang for the buck. Plague bearers for back field scoring? Why? I have cultists for that (it's almost literally the only thing they are good for and I don't have to pay the ally tax). Also, the abilities of Ahriman (who is wildly over-costed) and Huron to infiltrate units could be used on the units you mention, but when Demons can so easily teleport (and have ready access to beacons) why would you bother? What you're describing here isn't really synergy.

Synergy would be more actual interaction between units/rules. Like if the Dark Apostle allowed you to take x number of Demon units as though they were part of the CSM Codex, or with combinations like using Grimoire on Warp Talons like I mentioned earlier. There's almost none of that. How about a Tzeentch spell or artifact that allows you to turn one squad of cultists into a squad of demons of the same mark (as though they had been possessed like in the old days with Greater Demons). The entire situation is an exercise in missed opportunity imo.

Likewise for Daemons the Heldrake is awesome of course.
Cultitsts can be quite hard to kill for their cost.
Black Mace Daemon Prince has his uses.
Kharn the Betrayer in a unit of 35 Cultists is a lot of Fearless, Scoring, Wounds that is no slouch in melee and is dirt cheap.

Agreed on the Heldrake. I can see using CSM as a small allied force just to get a 'Drake.
Cultists only become "hard to kill" when you mark them with Nurgle and have them go to ground in cover. At that point they are expensive enough that I'm not sure why you would pay the ally tax to get them when you could just have Plague Bearers do the same thing.

Black Mace Prince does have his uses. But with the current Meta you need to do an awful lot to keep him alive and in the fight long enough to start killing things.

Kharn and a unit of 35 cultists ... see my earlier post about the one time I've managed to get him into CC this edition. I LOVE Kharn, but suffice it to say, until Chaos gets reliable (and relatively reasonably priced) assault transports ... yeah good luck with that.

But I forgot the only builds worth talking about on the internet are the ones that will win national tournaments for which the game was never intended anyway.

Not really no. There are plenty of "interesting" builds. I have an armor saturation build that includes two Maulerfiends, two Helbrutes and a ton of Rhinos/Landraiders and Tanks for example. It's pretty interesting in terms of composition and it's fun to look at and fun to play. It's also a massively uphill battle in terms of consistent success. It just depends on what you're looking for.

Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

Exactly. Most people I play with take the bad choices all the time, and so do I. It really gives those units a chance to shine. It allows you to experience everything the table top game has to offer.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with the Chaos Codex is not that it's defective in some way, it's that no one knows how to make winning armies with it.

See example here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

My apologies for contradicting the internet echo-chamber, but I kick ass with CSM, and without Drakes or Nurgle anything. For Khorne's sake if you want to play loyalists play loyalists, if you want to play Tau play Tau. Chaos thrives on synergy, and if you seriously can't work with the codex then team them with Daemons, traitor guard, ect.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

Ex-fething-xalt!
I keep seeing the same weak criticisms of CSM...
"But Codex X has"... Then play codex X if you can't win (or think) without it. These oranges taste nothing like apples! What crap!
"There are NO options for this, except (lists 2 or 3 options)" Do I have to explain why this one is dumb?
I only played 3 Drakes and Nurgle units, therefore the codex is limited. Yeah, I learned playing Orks. CSM is as flexible as silly putty to me.

You can criticize CSM for other reasons, but man I get sick of this groupthink.

There are NO options for this: good transports.

If people indicated what list they played while saying that its still going decently, it would provide some more background. Anyone running a Tzeentch or Khorne list with cult troops? Its all fun and games except if most play competitively with eldar/tau/podding marines.

CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Tycho wrote:

Also, the abilities of Ahriman (who is wildly over-costed) and Huron to infiltrate units could be used on the units you mention, but when Demons can so easily teleport (and have ready access to beacons) why would you bother? What you're describing here isn't really synergy.

If you have FMCs who swoop besides this infiltrating unit of 20 daemons then your opponent on turn one has to either dedicate their small arms fire to knocking your MCs out the sky or at the unit of 20 daemons that could be equally devastating.

Or a turn one assault if your opponent goes first. Or pick up the relic first turn.

I don't have time or patience to go through every example, you want me to be able to write you a list and tell you how to win with it in every scenario.

 Jayden63 wrote:
CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Standing a turn in front of an enemy line while waiting to be able to charge is not all that great. Granted the dirge caster is very good, but the type of vehicle its mounted on isnt in the slightest.

Maybe were diverging from the discussion a bit, but CT are a very strong point on what makes a lot of the theming in the CSM dex a bit pointless.

There's a band aid for CSM, and his name is Belakor. I run him, Juggerlord with spawn, 2 heldrakes, and a bloodthirster that Grimories bloodcrushers. Fill in as points needed... Steamroll opponents. It's not tournament optimized, but seriously fun. Buckets of skulls for the skull throne.

As a CSM player, I poured over the new codex for a long time trying to find the right build that suits me. This is 6th Ed. where shooty is king, so I opted to go with the Ksons for their AP3 bolters, 3+ 4++ saves, and the fact that they can rapid fire those nasty AP3 rounds AND assault in the same turn. Now Ksons aren't going to win all by themselves, so I backed them up with a Vindicator, a Forgefiend, an AC LC Predator tank, a group of bikers to move around the board, and a LR filled with shooty Termies and my Sorcerer Lord. I gave as many vehicles that I could the warpstorm gargoyles for only 5 pts each, and also gave every squad that I could the icon of flame. So basically, every enemy unit on the table that takes an unsaved wound, rolls a D6, on a 4+ that unit takes D3 S 4 AP 5 hits that ignore cover saves....in essence I have almost doubled my shooting proficiency and/or output just by adding those cheap upgrades!!

I'm not a tourney player by any means and don't expect this army to win 100% of it's games, but it's a very fluffy mono-god list that pumps out an ungodly amount of high Str low AP shots per turn. Unless your going up against a deathwing Terminator 2+ save-fest, I think that this list would do quite well.


HQ Chaos Sorcerer
Termie armor
psyker level 3
sigil of corruption
MoT

(4) Chaos Terminators
icon of flame
MoT

Chaos Landraider

Troop (5) Thousand sons
icon of flame
Rhino
warpflame gargoyles

Troop (5) Thousand sons
icon of flame
Rhino
warpflame gargoyles

Heavy Forgefiend.

Heavy Vindicator tank
havok launcher

Heavy Predator tank
Autocannon
LC sponsons
warpflame gargoyles

Fast (3) Chaos bikers
(2) meltaguns
MoT

All this for the low low price of 1500 points!!

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Standing a turn in front of an enemy line while waiting to be able to charge is not all that great. Granted the dirge caster is very good, but the type of vehicle its mounted on isnt in the slightest.

Maybe were diverging from the discussion a bit, but CT are a very strong point on what makes a lot of the theming in the CSM dex a bit pointless.

Just because the core rules for assaulting suck, doesn't mean that units that assault suck in general. Nor the vehicles used to get them there. Each codex has to deal with the limitations the core rules have set upon us, CSM seems to do a pretty good job of working inside those rules. After all a rhino still has two fire points, perfect for twin special weapons, twin blastmasters, or my favorite, twin doom sirens. CSM imo actually get the most out of what the rhino has to offer thanks in part to its wargear and the highly customizable unit you can put in there.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Standing a turn in front of an enemy line while waiting to be able to charge is not all that great. Granted the dirge caster is very good, but the type of vehicle its mounted on isnt in the slightest.

Maybe were diverging from the discussion a bit, but CT are a very strong point on what makes a lot of the theming in the CSM dex a bit pointless.

Just because the core rules for assaulting suck, doesn't mean that units that assault suck in general. Nor the vehicles used to get them there. Each codex has to deal with the limitations the core rules have set upon us, CSM seems to do a pretty good job of working inside those rules. After all a rhino still has two fire points, perfect for twin special weapons, twin blastmasters, or my favorite, twin doom sirens. CSM imo actually get the most out of what the rhino has to offer thanks in part to its wargear and the highly customizable unit you can put in there.

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

 Boggy Man wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with the Chaos Codex is not that it's defective in some way, it's that no one knows how to make winning armies with it.

See example here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

My apologies for contradicting the internet echo-chamber, but I kick ass with CSM, and without Drakes or Nurgle anything. For Khorne's sake if you want to play loyalists play loyalists, if you want to play Tau play Tau. Chaos thrives on synergy, and if you seriously can't work with the codex then team them with Daemons, traitor guard, ect.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

Ex-fething-xalt!
I keep seeing the same weak criticisms of CSM...
"But Codex X has"... Then play codex X if you can't win (or think) without it. These oranges taste nothing like apples! What crap!
"There are NO options for this, except (lists 2 or 3 options)" Do I have to explain why this one is dumb?
I only played 3 Drakes and Nurgle units, therefore the codex is limited. Yeah, I learned playing Orks. CSM is as flexible as silly putty to me.

You can criticize CSM for other reasons, but man I get sick of this groupthink.

Well except for any notion of playing Tzeentch (or really any legion)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

I must ask. What feels like an Emperor's children army? I've steadily grown to like them (I blame Noise Marines beating berserkers for second favorite cult marine). Obviously tons of Noise Marines but what else? Did they prefer mechanized or anything? I know you can't do it but noise bikers sounds silly fun (albeit they would probably be far too costly)

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

aha and how does that rhino even get in the flamer range ? Because options that are "fun" in the void , but which will never actualy get used kind of a suck. I mean no IG player is jumping up and down , because their chimeras can swim .

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

I still run Chaos, and I'm still mehing.

I've stopped running him once his ride gets blown apart before he even gets halfway up the board.

I've stopped running him when the only melee that seems to be found is allmighty killers like the SM Chapter + shield and burning or ripper blade.

I play Slaanesh, not much is fun when your vehicles are blown out so easily.

Makumba wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

aha and how does that rhino even get in the flamer range ? Because options that are "fun" in the void , but which will never actualy get used kind of a suck. I mean no IG player is jumping up and down , because their chimeras can swim .

Personally, I like 'cover' for this.

If you have FMCs who swoop besides this infiltrating unit of 20 daemons then your opponent on turn one has to either dedicate their small arms fire to knocking your MCs out the sky or at the unit of 20 daemons that could be equally devastating.

Or a turn one assault if your opponent goes first. Or pick up the relic first turn.

I don't have time or patience to go through every example, you want me to be able to write you a list and tell you how to win with it in every scenario.

lol no. The way you were talking I was hoping you actually had something. You don't imo. Swooping FMCs just to babysit a demon squad? We are likely just playing in different metas. In mine no one is going to waste small arms fire on FMCs. The small arms fire will knock out the Demons while things with skyfire and possibly intercept will knock out the fmcs. Your concept is fairly easily countered. There's a reason why the people playing lots of FMCs in Demon lists are doing so by keeping them off the board for as long as possible.

Don't get me wrong either. It's not that I think there needs to be something that allows you to win every game. There's obviously a counter to everything. The key is how hard is it to enact that counter. So far most of the suggestions I've seen over the last year that don't involve a typical net list are also kind of grasping at straws and not that difficult to out fight (this includes my own ideas so please don't get the impression that I think I've figured anything out either). Even in your own example you're just taking CSM as the smaller allied detachment.

The closest I've come is with the armor saturation list I mentioned earlier. I figure "Hey, it's basically a 5th ed book so why not make a 5th ed list?". It seems to work because, generally people don't expect it. That said, it almost always gives up first blood (because of the Rhinos) and it doesn't have as many troops choices as I like. You're basically playing the game to kill things and contest objectives. It's different, it doesn't completely suck. It's still pretty weak though ...

Makumba wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

aha and how does that rhino even get in the flamer range ? Because options that are "fun" in the void , but which will never actualy get used kind of a suck. I mean no IG player is jumping up and down , because their chimeras can swim .

Its easy when you refuse to play on planet bowling ball. There is always LOS blocking terrain in the center of the board. Then you have to choose, do I shoot at the rhinos or the Bikers, or the maulerfiends racing up the table. And if you don't kill them all on turn 1 do you try to kill them on turn 2 and 3 and ignore the helldrake and or DP thats now on the table. All of which take advantages of the dirge casters that still are on the table.

Yes, this is a lot harder to do when facing against a gun line army. I don't win every game, and like I said, I've not tabled anyone in a long time, so I don't even try, I play to win the sinerio. But I usually get line breaker, my own objectives thanks to the durability of noise marines with banner. First blood can come if the other guy brought something squishy as Autocannon Havoks can pop a light transport just as easy as my light transports can be popped so its a bit of a toss up for that one. Slay the warlord... well that depends on entirely who the warlord is for the other guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StarTrotter wrote:
I must ask. What feels like an Emperor's children army? I've steadily grown to like them (I blame Noise Marines beating berserkers for second favorite cult marine). Obviously tons of Noise Marines but what else? Did they prefer mechanized or anything? I know you can't do it but noise bikers sounds silly fun (albeit they would probably be far too costly)

In my opinion, Emperor Children's armies only have two requirements. 1 - If a unit can take a mark, it must take Slannesh. 2 - no other marks allowed. A possible third one would be to keep all units that are not single model units in groups of 6 as that is Slannesh's sacred number, but as that possibly puts some heavier restrictions on weapon choices, I've loosened my opinion on that for the sake of competitiveness.

BTW - I love my biker squad. Banner of excess makes them very durable. I'm bummed that you can't put sonic blasters on them, but it never hurts to have two highly mobile melta guns.

The only army that is not a gunline I have seen people play is demons screamer star and that eats meq alive and nids which run around with biomancy and ignore str 5 flamers.

The only army that is not a gunline I have seen people play is demons screamer star and that eats meq alive and nids which run around with biomancy and ignore str 5 flamers.

Sorry to hear that! Gunlines are sooooo boring. My meta is, fortunately, relatively gun-line free. I hope it stays that way!

Tycho wrote:

You're basically playing the game to kill things

Thanks I hadn't realized that. I like how you picked on the vaguest example I gave to criticize rather than Infiltrating on the Relic, or assaulting on turn one.
Are they bad strategies? Well, like everything else in this game it is subjective.

We can argue what counters what forever, our metas are probably different too.

I can't tell you exactly what you need to take or do to win. You have to figure it out for yourself.

I've figured it out in my meta, the CSM codex does not suck and is fun to use.

Thanks I hadn't realized that.

Reading is fundamental my friend. "You're playing the game to kill things" was in reference to the strategy for my own suggestion (the armor saturation list). I was just saying that with that list the goal isn't to capture objectives but rather to kill your opponent's troops so that he can't. lol

Had nothing to do with you or your suggestions. Stop being so defensive.

I like how you picked on the vaguest example I gave to criticize rather than Infiltrating on the Relic, or assaulting on turn one.
Are they bad strategies?

That's part of my entire point. Almost everyone who says some variation of "the book is fine because tactics, there are no problems here, you can do it without the drake, etc etc" only ever posts the vaguest of vague examples and they are almost always sub-optimal to outright terrible. I keep hoping someone will say "hey! this is kind of cool, doesn't need drakes and is able to be decently competitive" but it hasn't happened yet. It's ALWAYS super vague and kind of random. Not looking for a face beater or a deploy and insta-win list either. Just something a little different that doesn't outright suck.

EDIT:

Also, I avoided commenting on these before because I didn't want to sound like I was just beating on you, but if you're going to call it out here you go:

Turn one assault is highly situational and still subject to overwatch AND (in this case) something the opponent isn't exactly going to be surprised by which makes it a very low percentage solution. Even in a friendly game. There's ways to do it where it can be brutal, but this isn't one of them and even with the right list it's still highly dependent on other factors. If you have something that will guarantee you the die roll in both getting the right player turn AND getting the right charge distance then great. But otherwise ...

Go ahead and grab the relic turn one. Seriously. If that's what you're doing and your opponents are not just relentlessly gunning you down ... please send some of them my way ....

We can argue what counters what forever, our metas are probably different too.

We can, but it's not necessary. Like I said, there's a counter to everything. The key is in how hard it is to enact that counter. I mean no offense to you with what I'm about to say but I haven't seen you point out anything that isn't fairly day one basic and easily handled by most new to mid level players. Yet the tone of your posts makes it seem as though you feel they are very strong strategies. Apologies if I've misunderstood you. The meta issue I'm sure doesn't help in discussions like this. Agreed on that.

I can't tell you exactly what you need to take or do to win.

No, you apparently can't.

the CSM codex does not suck and is fun to use.

Objectively ... it is a very weak book (all the way around from fluff to rules to units) at best. It CAN be fun from time to time though. It's just so filled with so many missed opportunities that it becomes hard to enjoy the precious little that is there.

I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Tycho wrote:

It CAN be fun from time to time though. It's just so filled with so many missed opportunities that it becomes hard to enjoy the precious little that is there.

Then play a different army?

At least I am offering you solutions to your problem. What is your contribution? To just criticize every idea because if you can't win with the codex no one can.

Perhaps my advice is fairly day one basic easily handled by new players if your gaming group happens to all be in mensa. The codex and rule book have been out over a year it doesn't take a genius to learn any strategy this game offers.

You obviously hate the CSM codex so why do you punish yourself by playing it.

Tycho wrote:

That's part of my entire point. Almost everyone who says some variation of "the book is fine because tactics, there are no problems here, you can do it without the drake, etc etc" only ever posts the vaguest of vague examples and they are almost always sub-optimal to outright terrible. I keep hoping someone will say "hey! this is kind of cool, doesn't need drakes and is able to be decently competitive" but it hasn't happened yet. It's ALWAYS super vague and kind of random. Not looking for a face beater or a deploy and insta-win list either. Just something a little different that doesn't outright suck.

I could give you my exact army list for you to play. I could tell you what I would do each and every turn, but then its still me playing and not you. And once I shut my mouth, I will probably have won and you will probably loose. Why, because I've played my army over and over and over. I know what I can expect my units to do, besides what math hammer says. You can't win at 40k if you take a new list to game every week. You never will have the inner knowledge of what you can expect. And since I feel I know what I can tackle safely, I'll take risks with my units that others don't. They don't always work, sometimes they do. Sometimes the dice love me, other times they don't. Sometimes I'll fail all my 3+ saves, but make all my 5+ FNP saves. Things just happen. Also, unless your my neighbor, my meta is different than your meta. However, the basic rules of 40K never change. Shoot the assault stuff, assault the shooty stuff. If one is good, 2-3 is better. Use 100% of my army to fight 50% of theirs. Play to win the sinerio, not necessarily annihilate the enemy. Roll more dice, and as always, rock wins over scissors.

There are just bad match ups, but I gotta say. I like CSM chances vs Grey Knights, Bugs, Sisters, Guard, DE, Orks, many SM builds and their variants. Yeah, its a bit of a hard time vs eldar, Tau, and flying necrons (walking necrons not so much) but if your meta only sees the top dexs being played, maybe the problem isn't you, but them.

What is your contribution? To just criticize every idea because if you can't win with the codex no one can.

I actually mentioned one of my solutions several times. Before you get too much more up in arms about the "can't win" thing - I noted that while my idea doesn't work all the time it does still work occasionally and it's usually unexpected. I listed it's obvious flaws and mentioned what I typically need to do to get around them while admitting that it was still a uphill battle. I didn't just say "Armor Saturation. DONE." THAT is the kind of thing I typically look for in a suggestion. By contrast, your suggestion was "Infiltrate a squad of demons and use FMC's". Which A. basically requires you to NOT use CSM as your primary (in which case why bother when the subject at hand is CSM) and B. just isn't super helpful on the whole imo.

Perhaps my advice is fairly day one basic easily handled by new players if your gaming group happens to all be in mensa.

"Infiltrate a Demon squad" requires a MENSA level IQ to handle? lol You're fun. I like you.

You obviously hate the CSM codex so why do you punish yourself by playing it.

I do dislike it. It is so full of missed opportunities from "fun" things like synergy with Demons (like the potential Dark Apostle rule I mentioned earlier) to more competitive options that are good in tough games but not as crazy as the Heldrake.

On the other hand, I've played CSM since Rogue Trader. I have a massive amount of CSM models, and it's hard to let that much money sit on the shelf. I play them a hell of a lot less this edition and that amount gets less and less every passing day, but I'm still trying to find interesting different ways to be competitive with them. THAT is the challenge with this book. Can you overcome the inherent weakness of the book itself and that's why I still play them. So no. I'm not just automatically shooting down everything I see. Just looking for the strengths and weaknesses in suggested strategies. Too often the weaknesses outweugh the strengths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I could give you my exact army list for you to play. I could tell you what I would do each and every turn, but then its still me playing and not you. And once I shut my mouth, I will probably have won and you will probably loose. Why, because I've played my army over and over and over. I know what I can expect my units to do, besides what math hammer says. You can't win at 40k if you take a new list to game every week. You never will have the inner knowledge of what you can expect. And since I feel I know what I can tackle safely, I'll take risks with my units that others don't. They don't always work, sometimes they do. Sometimes the dice love me, other times they don't. Sometimes I'll fail all my 3+ saves, but make all my 5+ FNP saves. Things just happen. Also, unless your my neighbor, my meta is different than your meta. However, the basic rules of 40K never change. Shoot the assault stuff, assault the shooty stuff. If one is good, 2-3 is better. Use 100% of my army to fight 50% of theirs. Play to win the sinerio, not necessarily annihilate the enemy. Roll more dice, and as always, rock wins over scissors.

Yeah that's all true but it's not my point. You should still be able to give a few details. Not like "Ok take this EXACT list. Move this unit here first ..." but rather some kind of coherent concept. It may or may not fit with my meta or models and it may or may not work with how I play the game but it's at least a full coherent idea. Not "Dude, just take allies". That's the kind of vague I'm getting at. I could just as easily be spouting the same type of generalities without ever even thinking about it and that's the issue. Putting forth a more detailed description (doesn't even have to be morethan a paragraph) shows you thought out your concept and have possibly even tried it which always carries more weight with me.

There are just bad match ups, but I gotta say. I like CSM chances vs Grey Knights, Bugs, Sisters, Guard, DE, Orks, many SM builds and their variants. Yeah, its a bit of a hard time vs eldar, Tau, and flying necrons (walking necrons not so much) but if your meta only sees the top dexs being played, maybe the problem isn't you, but them.

Yeah, 6th ed is def. the edition of bad match ups. true TAC lists are hard to make. No my meta does NOT just see only the top books played. Army wise it's pretty varied. Tactically though, it's pretty strong and you really start to see how many bad match-ups CSM actually have when they aren't running a net list.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well.

As a Black Templars player I'd have to say I don't agree with that assertion at all.

You 'mentioned' one idea you had a few times. Thats great.

You can take a CSM Daemon Prince, a Lord of Change / Bloodthirster and a CD Daemon Prince in a CSM army that still has Huron as its Warlord.

3 FMC that don't have to worry about the Warp Storm or lean on Fateweaver for his Warlord Trait. Make one Be'lakor for invisible Lord of Change or Bloodthirster and see what happens. Or take Black Legion for some of their nice Wargear.

The FMC idea is a good one, not everyone has multiple units capable of Skyfire. And hitting a FMC with one is no guarantee that it will die or crash land.

FMC spam is only going to get more popular with the release of Escalation. They are ace at destroying super heavy vehicles, and they can't be hit by D weapons whilst swooping. And your opponent will probably not have much in the way of units to knock you out of the air if they've brought a Lord of War.

@ XT-1984

My plyon begs to differ about D weapons not hitting FMCs

EDIT: Oh and my flying bakery also begs to differ about not having much to back uo the lord of war

Even when Be'lakor Terrifies your C'tan and Hallucinates him to be pinned or can do nothing?

Or puppet master him and destroy a unit of yours?

EDIT: opps, Pylon! I haven't familiarized myself with all of the Lords of War yet but I doubt it will kill all 4 before they get there.

Have fun with your Night Scythes when I have a 2+ cover save on my Bloodthirster or Lord of Change and a 2+ invun or cover save on Be'lakor.

Thats why I simply shoot down the support units and then go for the head honchos (kill belly with pylon and grimoire holder with NS then go from there)

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

I believe he's referring to the novels that show 1KSons rubric marines acting like space marines in combat. They aren't slow and sluggish, they'll headbutt you and groin stomp you with the best of them. It's only when they lose their sorcerer or aren't in combat that they become zombi-ish. And if the can use a bolter, why the _____ can't they use a melta gun or flamer? And them not being able to overwatch or pretty much anything else useful makes them painfully weak in CC. No heavy weapons, no special weapons, no over watch, no grenades, etc etc = 23pt model that kinda sucks at a lot of things.

@Tycho. Typing on my phone so quoting is out of the question.AnAnyway, my list is a Verizon of armor rush. Four rhinos, biker squad, two maulerfiends, heldrake, flying DP. We all race forward and for the most part are able to be where I want by turn 2. Pick your targets and hope the charge dice like you. The rhino squads usually can't charge until turn 3 but they have no issues hanging around for a turn delivering bladtmaster or doomsiren death.

But like I said earlier this is all much easier if the other guy isn't playing table edge gun line. Naturally. That's just one of the bad matchups for this list.

Correct. I was referring to the books that actually portray the 1K Sons. In the fluff\stories they act like regular marines in combat when they have a sorcerer. Now rules-wise, correct. They have never been like that. But I'm talking about having the rules fit the fluff, which would make them alot better.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Problem is, they don't make good bullet shields anymore, lets study what made them effective at it

3.0: 2 Wounds, Unable to be harmed by Strength 4 and below shooting, could never charge into melee but always counted as stationary while shooting. 3 points more then plague marines

3.5: 2 Wounds.

4E/6E: 4++

Yeah this has gotten worse and worse over time, not to mention very poor spells on part of the sorcerer and they don't become effective, and then they gave them inferno bullets which like all AP3 they overcost for some reason...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Problem is, they don't make good bullet shields anymore, lets study what made them effective at it

3.0: 2 Wounds, Unable to be harmed by Strength 4 and below shooting, could never charge into melee but always counted as stationary while shooting. 3 points more then plague marines

3.5: 2 Wounds.

4E/6E: 4++

Yeah this has gotten worse and worse over time, not to mention very poor spells on part of the sorcerer and they don't become effective, and then they gave them inferno bullets which like all AP3 they overcost for some reason...

They're good anti-meq shooting, but literally that's it. They completely suck at everything else. Can they take on hordes? Nope. Can they take out vehicles? Nope. MC's? Nope. CC types? Nope.
1KSons = Poo.

And only if the MEQ are out in the open. So even their anti-MEQ crapability is limited. Oh man, I miss the days of having two wounds...alas...

Well, the only good thing about the chaos dex right now is, that it's not loyalists. So if you like marines but can't identify yourself with the imperium as it is - welcome to the warband, take your chainaxe and new decals.

The armory section is really compact. No HH toys, few weapon choices (why do chaos marines/havocs have no access to plasma cannons? and, if they are such new tech that they couldnt possibly have aquired them - why do your dreadnoughts and obliterators CAN take them?).

Also, you are almost forced to demonize half your army to get any results. I like the Alpha Legion, which should have the lowest mutation rate of all Legions, does no demon worship and is frequently supplemented by recent imperial stockpiles. If I want to stick to a fluffy list, I have to avoid at least 60% of the dex.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Problem is, they don't make good bullet shields anymore, lets study what made them effective at it

3.0: 2 Wounds, Unable to be harmed by Strength 4 and below shooting, could never charge into melee but always counted as stationary while shooting. 3 points more then plague marines

3.5: 2 Wounds.

4E/6E: 4++

Yeah this has gotten worse and worse over time, not to mention very poor spells on part of the sorcerer and they don't become effective, and then they gave them inferno bullets which like all AP3 they overcost for some reason...

They're good anti-meq shooting, but literally that's it. They completely suck at everything else. Can they take on hordes? Nope. Can they take out vehicles? Nope. MC's? Nope. CC types? Nope.
1KSons = Poo.

They aren't even good at it, they have to be 100% out of cover otherwise basic CSM beat them.

They aren't even effective at their main job. They are just straight horrible.

When I first read the new chaos dex I despised it. Now i just dislike it but thre are a few builds I enjoy using with my fallen army from time to time. I particularly love those slaneesh sorcerors and chosen are of course wolf guard on steroids essentially. Lascannon for havocs for only 20pts not bad. I seem to build lists with these units I would normally build with space wolf except they are even more potent. Good fun. Conversely, I think the sm dex is a boring peice of gak in entirety.

brother marcus wrote:
Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

Whatwhatwhat?!

Good luck with your Assault based codex!

@Tycho. Typing on my phone so quoting is out of the question.AnAnyway, my list is a Verizon of armor rush. Four rhinos, biker squad, two maulerfiends, heldrake, flying DP. We all race forward and for the most part are able to be where I want by turn 2. Pick your targets and hope the charge dice like you. The rhino squads usually can't charge until turn 3 but they have no issues hanging around for a turn delivering bladtmaster or doomsiren death.

But like I said earlier this is all much easier if the other guy isn't playing table edge gun line. Naturally. That's just one of the bad matchups for this list.

WOW! That's REALLY similar to my Armor Sat. list. Yeah, I've had issues with gunlines as well. Have you tried anything for backfield disruption? My Khorne marked dual lightning clawed termicide squad has been moderately successful at getting to grips with the gunline quickly and breaking it up a bit. I've also had some luck with DS'ing Raptors using different load outs, but you kind of have to guess ahead of time with the load outs and if you guessed wrong ... lol

EDIT:
Depending on the type of gunline I've also had some success walking my troops up-field BEHIND the Rhinos rahther than in them. I put my LR and Helbrutes up front to soak up shots, hide the troops behind the Rhinos and send the fiends up the flanks. All of it moving as fast as freaking possible. If any Rhinos survive to get close enough, they attempt tank shocks on the gunline.

The problem is that "backfield disruption" becomes "within double tap range" on your opponent's turn.

The problem is that "backfield disruption" becomes "within double tap range" on your opponent's turn.

Often times yes. Hence the "some success" caveat. lol Still though, the hope is it gets something out of position or draws fire away from the advance. It's about presenting a lot threats at the same time that all need to be dealt with NOW. But yeah, still a uphill battle.

If you want to play Alpha Legion, You'd have to use the loyalist codex to even come close.

 MWHistorian wrote:
If you want to play Alpha Legion, You'd have to use the loyalist codex to even come close.

Depends if you're talking the newer kind, or the old Taliban cultist training type.

Minion of the chaos gods destroy him!
Seriously though its mostly down to what people in particular prefer, most of the time as long as the codex's are close match there will be supporter on both sides.

I really wanted to read all 5 pages of this, because the thread title was so absurd and I wanted to see my fellow Chaos Lords pummel this argument into submission, but I haven't seen the things that are really insulting be mentioned quiet yet (made it halfway through page 2. lol).

You want the absolute, most insulting thing to happen between Loyalist and Traitor? The discrepency in gear. That alone should tell you just what exactly GW thinks about the Chaos Marines.

Better yet, do a comparison to what Forgeworld thinks the Chaos Marines should have, and then put it against the current C: SM arsenal. There is no freaking comparison, not by a long shot.

Just the names of some of these items alone, smacks of someone who wanted to make the Chaos Space Marines die forever and ever, and shame anyone who ever thought of using them.

Case in point: Space Marines get Twin-Linked Bolters. Sounds fancy and hi tech, right? Well Chaos Marines get Combi-Bolters.

You seeing the language difference right there, in the standard rifle of both armies? Space Marines get these awesome, super science sounding TWIN LINKED boltgun. So it's like two boltguns in one and even better is that they sound like they'd shoot as one two. So this sounds like a boltgun that double-taps by default. Obviously a weapon you'd want to split someones skull open with.

Now the Combi-Bolter....Combi.,....we couldn't even use a full word to describe the bolter. Space Marines got two full, thought provoking, and possibly exhilerating words "TWIN LINKED..." and the gakky ol CSM's got... combi-bolters......gtfo.

But wait! What about the STORM BOLTER!!! OMG!! NOW THEY ADDED THE WORD "STORM" TO DESCRIBE YET ANOTHER STANDARD WEAPON IN THE SM ARSENAL! Except this weapon is so badass, it was made specifically for the badass SM Termies....

Chaos Termies?... combi......<---By the way, I really hate that word now because I don't read "combi" anymore. I read "bs." They were so damn lazy with the Chaos Terminators that they (in addition to stripping away the very necessary SS/TH combo) they said "Nah! Give them the "bs" Bolters and we'll make sure they can still charge and melee by just giving them Relentless. Gtfo again. GW you're making me sick now.

Let's also not forget about the Thunderfire Cannons, excessive air drop vehicles, the fact that Chaos can't even have a freaking PLASMA CANNON OR MULTI-MELTA YET WE FREAKING HAD THEM IN THE DAMN HERESY!!!

Seriously? What is the thought here? Oh, because time has passed, all of that awesome crap Chaos so lovingly maintained just self-destructed when they went to fight the Space Marines? And aren't groups like the freaking Red Corsairs pirating SPACE MARINE TECH!?

If GW wanted me to even pretend like they weren't the laziest, stoned bunch of greedy bastards on the planet, they'd look at Forgeworld for some inspiration. I know so far all of this seems petty, but it's more indicative of their frame of mind, and how truly hate filled they must be towards Chaos. I couldn't put together a more insulting armory, if I tried. What's next? CCW's get replaced with spoons and forks?

What I see in the Chaos Codex in comparison to every other army out there, is sheer contempt for their players, and that's as good as taking the money out of my hand and leaving a gak on my front porch, then leaving a note card that says, "Happy Birthday, RWA! We love you! Hope you have the best day ever! SMILES."

RAEG

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

Image removed by insaniak. Please don't make posts consisting of just an image, particularly when it is nothing to do with the topic.

Quoted from the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine codex
"Why collect a Chaos Space Marine Army?
There is something darkly fascinating about villains. Not the run-of-the-mill petty villains, but the big villains, the ones that plot universal domination and have the ability to see it through. These villains are just as resourceful, just as determined and just as capable as any hero but they also have faults and weaknesses that make them far more interesting. This is, I believe, the attraction of the Chaos Space Marines."

So there. We are the bad guys. They are the good guys. Its supposed to be a bad day when Chaos wins.

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Well, I know for a fact that ATSKNF is powerful and game-changing.

The sheer number of times I've broken Marines in close combat, only to have them negate being swept is heart-breaking, especially given how hard it is for me to break them in the first place, what with striking last unless I want to wound them on 5s or 6s.

I'm honestly thinking about starting a Chaos army, but doing Counts As C:SM. Would be fun to get a Warpsmith to be my Master of the Forge and run with six Hellbrutes, and not too expensive given the current DV prices. Probably cheaper than doing them with loyalist minis.

I think FNP(6+) alone is worth 2pts/model, given how it should pay for itself just by saving dudes. Having ATSKNF, Combat Squads and super-HQ bundled in on top of that is outstanding.

Bolter-Drill produces more hits than the equivalent points taken in extra models, and then has the Tank Hunter bundle on top. White Scar Bikes have a list of buffs as long as your arm...
It is a bit irritating to see these advantages played down so often. No they aren't as good as Bladestorm or having Markerlight available but they are bloody good value, and to have the whole package provided for such a small premium is more than a little grating for CSM.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Well, the true tragedy of idiots is that they don't know they're idiots.

Let us hope that the rumoured csm veteran supplement will address some of these issues about not being able to represent your legion on the tabletop (which I agree with) by applying decently costed (or ideally free with VOTLW) skills for CSM units.

Ideally of course they should be given out free as Legion Tactics like the SM get, but I doubt that will happen.

I haven't heard anything about upcoming Chaos supplements. Maybe because the first one sucked not enough people bought it so GW thought no one wanted further supplements? But this next supplement really needs to fix a lot of crap.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Because they are idiots.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Because they are idiots.

And someone who dismisses people with other opinions that himself as "idiots" isn't? Come on. Plus, even if they're idiots, they're still right.

Dismissing someone for not seeing the value in 3 special rules for 1pt. isn't idiotic.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

And someone who dismisses people with other opinions that himself as "idiots" isn't?

Not if they're idiotic opinions.

Can we please stop throwing around the term "idiot".

Personally, I think ATSKNF is pretty good, but that comes from someone who doesn't use it and sees it instead used against her.

CSM are awful :/

 Melissia wrote:
Can we please stop throwing around the term "idiot".

Personally, I think ATSKNF is pretty good, but that comes from someone who doesn't use it and sees it instead used against her.

I'm with you, and I play an army that has it. Personally I feel like ATSKNF should be removed from the game, or significantly altered. 1) It gives you a benefit for losing morale tests in they get to regroup 3" and then can still move their full 6" and assault per normal. There should not be situations where failing something is a benefit. 2) It single-handedly makes assaulting worthless. It's already bad enough, but when the most ubiquitous army in the hobby has a rule that ignores the biggest downside to losing combat (sweeping advance) and makes one of the better USRs for assualting in Fear totally worthless, it's kind of dumb. Just from a how it plays perspective. Marines are hard enough to beat in assault anyway without a dedicated assault unit because the base statline for Space Marines make their troops better in a scrum than any other army's basic troops. No other race features Sv3+ troops, and no other army boasts basic troops with S4 T4 WS4. They don't win point for point because they lack model count, but IMO that's not much of a deterrant.

Making it so Space Marines were simply Stubborn ubiquitously rather than ATSKNF would be pretty awesome. And again, I play marines, dark angels specifically.

Meh, I'd prefer if Sisters got their unviersal Stubborn back.

Miss so many things from 3rd edition :/

What some people don't seem to get is that CSM are supposed to be awful compared to SM. This game is about forging a narrative and in that narrative there are good guys and bad guys and the bad guys are supposed to lose - that's their purpose for existing. That's why CSM don't have any good deployment options or transports - you're supposed to run across the board getting shot up by the heroes while looking bad and scary (oh no, here they come - there are too many of them!) until you finally reach them and get cinematically defeated in heroic one-on-one combat.

This codex was almost successful at achieving that, but then somebody went and put in the baledrake by mistake. Expect it to be fixed next edition (for a sneak peek of what to expect see Codex: Tyranids).

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
What some people don't seem to get is that CSM are supposed to be awful compared to SM. This game is about forging a narrative and in that narrative there are good guys and bad guys and the bad guys are supposed to lose - that's their purpose for existing. That's why CSM don't have any good deployment options or transports - you're supposed to run across the board getting shot up by the heroes while looking bad and scary (oh no, here they come - there are too many of them!) until you finally reach them and get cinematically defeated in heroic one-on-one combat.

This codex was almost successful at achieving that, but then somebody went and put in the baledrake by mistake. Expect it to be fixed next edition (for a sneak peek of what to expect see Codex: Tyranids).

I'm going to assume you're being facetious, but I have seen people argue that without irony and it depresses me

HAHHAHAH thats why eldar are so good right? Cause they are the good... oh wait. Nope.

Seriously though hades drakes are great AA albeit a lil overcosted AND you get extra cool points when you win for lack of cheese!

Eldar are supposed to be one of the heroes of the setting, actually, so that does make sense. >>

While Sisters represent the Imperium at its most evil, which is why we get shafted... wait, aren't anti-heroes supposed to be popular?

 SRSFACE wrote:
No other race features Sv3+ troops, and no other army boasts basic troops with S4 T4 WS4.

While I agree with your point about the power of ATSKNF as a rule, I would like to introduce you to the Necron Immortals, whom you have evidently never met.

 rohansoldier wrote:
Let us hope that the rumoured csm veteran supplement will address some of these issues about not being able to represent your legion on the tabletop (which I agree with) by applying decently costed (or ideally free with VOTLW) skills for CSM units.

Ideally of course they should be given out free as Legion Tactics like the SM get, but I doubt that will happen.

Except that considering that would increase the cost of the unit..(10 points for one skill and VOTLW means they are now as costly as GH..Without the BP/CCW...BALANCE! )

I quite like some parts of the CSM codex.


But as I have said before it is far more Chaos Renegades than Chaos Legions, which absolutely sucks in my opinion and should be the other way around. With some fluffy legion tactics (I don't want them to be cheese inspiring, I just want them to be fluffy!) and a few other tweaks.

I mean seriously GW, all you have to do is get the C:SM, change the art in it and change the names of the chapter tactics, it isn't that hard!

From a flavour perspective, I absolutely agree that it is a total missed opportunity. The SM Codex fixed the "Legion problem" so easily that it is hard to believe no one had thought of it before.

From an internal balance perspective, again, it's severely flawed, but I supposed it is no different in that regard than pretty much every other book ever published by GW.

On the external balance balance front, though, I think CSM players don't have it nearly as bad as they think they do. I mean, 3 decent HQs (DPs with wings, Sorcerers & Chaos Lords), not-awesome-but-workable Troops (Cultists for objective babysitting, CSM/Plagues/NM for midfield), excellent Fast Attack choices (no more needs to be said about that, I hope) and quite solid Heavy Support options (Autohavocks, Autolas preds, Vindis, Nurgle Oblits). The only slot that really has nothing of particular value in it is the Elite slot.

Even Champion of Chaos is not that hard to work around: don't tool up your Champions, and don't let your Lords ride around with another Champion with him to do the challenging.