Given the pitiful accuracy of 'nid rumours, maybe we all lost hope in this BOLS story of three imminent Dataslates.
One will be genestealer based, one one big bugs, and one on flyers (gargoyles as troops, but no walking monsters. Hmmmm).
Anyway, GW Digital confirmed today on their Facebook page that the Vanguard Infestation dataslate, due out before the end of Jan, is indeed the first of a trilogy.
"We announced in this month's issue of White Dwarf that, starting later this month, the first in a trilogy of new Tyranid Dataslates will be released.
All three of these are going to have new datasheet formations for Tyranid armies to use, and if you're a fan of Genestealers (I know i am, far to many games of Space Hulk in my teenage years), I think you're going to like the first installment in the trilogy." (Eddie, GW Digital)
Are GW horrible grasping capitalists for separating this stuff from the codex? Hell, yeah. Will I buy at least one? Hell, yeah.
I should add there's no confirmation the second two-thirds of the BOLS story is true... but the fact the Genestealer one has been announced as the first of three gives it credence.
Could the flying supplement, if it exists, really introduce a new character? Parasite of Mortrex or similar?
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: I should add there's no confirmation the second two-thirds of the BOLS story is true... but the fact the Genestealer one has been announced as the first of three gives it credence.
Could the flying supplement, if it exists, really introduce a new character? Parasite of Mortrex or similar?
I could see the Parasite revised back in. Harpies as Fast Attack, Gargoyles and Skyslashers as Troops, Crone as Heavy Support, Shrikes as Elites, Flyrant and Parasite as HQW and Harridan Lord of War? I could see this as a possible "Flyer army" dataslate.
This is exactly a Kirby/ Upper Management thing to do. Drop the thing that everyone likes from the main dex, have them pay extra to use it again through DLC.
Lobukia wrote: Hopefully this is more responding to outcry and less a sneaky plan to make more scratch.
After a few days of release? That's awfully fast. Especially since this was teased before release, iirc.
It wasn't "teased" before release. It was in the White Dwarf for release.
We didn't get any specific details or anything beyond "Vanguard Organisms" and "Lictors, Genestealers and more" though.
If I had to speculate though?
Ymgarl Genestealers are going to become an IC or Broodlord equivalent for Genestealers.
Given that they have a couple apocalypse formation packages on the website it's likely they will be data sheets for those. You have the Vanguard Infestation, Living Fortress and Subterranean Swarm all of which look like unit combinations that could be fielded in standard games.
If the datasheets confer some sort of bonus abilities or rules for them in a normal game hopefully it'll help fill in some of the weak areas in the main codex. I can only pray that the vanguard offers ymgarl and regular genestealers something along the lines of their older rules. I'd really like to see Subterranean offer some sort of controlled arrival from reserves along the lines of death wing deployment.
1) Vanguard Infestation will allow for "Ymgarl Genestealers" which will either be ICs or a unit upgrade to Genestealer Broods, making the Broods gain the same locator beacon as Lictors.
2) Living Fortress will have something similar to the Deathwing Knights where models in base contact with 1 or more Tyrant Guards will get +1 T. Swarmlord as the "leader" of the formation.
3) Subterranean Swarm will be something about "rumbling earth". Maybe allow for the Swarm to, on the turn it arrives, throw up a huge cloud of smoke that lowers BS for the next turn?
Why get excited for dataslates when there likely won't be that many changes to the rules? A few extra USRs won't make up for bad statlines/point values/instinctive behaviors.
We all know it's going to wind up being something like "Carnifexes and Hive Guard gain Tank Hunters." or "Genestealers have Shrouded the first turn of the game."
So GW now releases a codex and immediately after releases "theme armies" for that same codex that customers have to pay all over again to get? And people still buy them?!
I guess its true what they say, there is one born every minute...
Not gonna lie, if there's a Dataslate that lets me take Carnifexen as Troops, I'll be throwing my money at them every month to buy dozens of the things.
Y'hear that, GW? I'll come back to you for Carnifexes as Troops.
Platuan4th wrote: Not gonna lie, if there's a Dataslate that lets me take Carnifexen as Troops, I'll be throwing my money at them every month to buy dozens of the things.
Post that on GW digital and watch how fast one gets made.
RogueRegault wrote: We all know it's going to wind up being something like "Carnifexes and Hive Guard gain Tank Hunters." or "Genestealers have Shrouded the first turn of the game."
Yeah, this is why I don't like Dataslates, and why I think a lot of tournies won't end up allowing them... unless there's a good reason to do so, like a new unit being added or the like.
Platuan4th wrote: Not gonna lie, if there's a Dataslate that lets me take Carnifexen as Troops, I'll be throwing my money at them every month to buy dozens of the things.
Y'hear that, GW? I'll come back to you for Carnifexes as Troops.
Platuan4th wrote: Not gonna lie, if there's a Dataslate that lets me take Carnifexen as Troops, I'll be throwing my money at them every month to buy dozens of the things.
Y'hear that, GW? I'll come back to you for Carnifexes as Troops.
RogueRegault wrote: We all know it's going to wind up being something like "Carnifexes and Hive Guard gain Tank Hunters." or "Genestealers have Shrouded the first turn of the game."
Yeah, this is why I don't like Dataslates, and why I think a lot of tournies won't end up allowing them... unless there's a good reason to do so, like a new unit being added or the like.
Telling Nid players that can't have things they need to patch this sinking ship is hardly a good way to get them to attend your tourney.
So, anyone have any idea what's the point of these dataslates? Are they just formations of random units that don't take any FOC slots and have free special rules added on top, like the Tau Firebase Support Cadre? Likewise to the Tau Cadre, can every army use these dataslates? Additionally, why does GW sometimes call them datasheets and sometimes dataslates?
To me they almost defeat the purpose of the FOC altogether. It also seems like 40K is moving closer and closer to Apocalypse, where you can field any combination of models from any army in the same force. But I guess GW feels there are more interesting narratives to those triple and quad codex armies than old fashioned mono codex armies. They're pretty much sacrificing every last ounce of integrity and resemblance of balance in the game just to make a few extra bucks.
Make no mistake I approve of the new Tyranids becoming stronger (if in fact that's what will happen), but I just despise the idea of dataslates and multi-allying as a whole.
JWhex wrote: For the price you are paying for a codex it is ridiculous to have to pay extra for this content.
The greed of GW knows no bounds and the fanboys are not likely to teach them anytime soon.
Oh please. You're talking about $6.99 for a Dataslate as though it's some obscene amount, with no idea of exactly what kind of content is within.
Their codexes are made from copy pasted pieces from older codexes... Who are you really trying to convince that these dataslates will have any content worth getting apart from the army lists themselves?
And you do realise that other companies usually give these theme forces for "free" with their army books or at least as "free" content in their respective magazines?
JWhex wrote: For the price you are paying for a codex it is ridiculous to have to pay extra for this content.
The greed of GW knows no bounds and the fanboys are not likely to teach them anytime soon.
Oh please. You're talking about $6.99 for a Dataslate as though it's some obscene amount, with no idea of exactly what kind of content is within.
Their codexes are made from copy pasted pieces from older codexes... Who are you really trying to convince that these dataslates will have any content worth getting apart from the army lists themselves?
Have you read the Dataslates? I have not read them. I don't know what's in it.
That was the point of my post. And honestly, the "copy/pasted pieces from older codices" is inevitable given that GW does not want to advance the timeline. There is still new content in codices though, so acting as though they're simply reprints with a higher price tag is disingenuous.
And you do realise that other companies usually give these theme forces for "free" with their army books or at least as "free" content in their respective magazines?
So in both cases, they're not actually "free". They're part of something else.
I really don't like this data slate approach. This is something you do after a codex has been out a year and you want to release new wargear or a new unit.
If you buy a eBook it should come with a 1 year plan that you get all data slates and revisions for free up to a year after purchase if they're going to pull stunts like this.
It's an absolute pain, as a player who may only want to play a single army, to keep all of this stuff straight. You almost need to meet up an hour before a game so you can read through half a dozen codex and data slates just to play a match.
And you do realise that other companies usually give these theme forces for "free" with their army books or at least as "free" content in their respective magazines?
So in both cases, they're not actually "free". They're part of something else.
And I doubt that anyone would complain if GW adopted the same model and released them in the codex or as content in WD...
But please keep on defending decisions that are worse for the consumer base than any of the alternatives.
And you do realise that other companies usually give these theme forces for "free" with their army books or at least as "free" content in their respective magazines?
So in both cases, they're not actually "free". They're part of something else.
And I doubt that anyone would complain if GW adopted the same model and released them in the codex or as content in WD...
But please keep on defending decisions that are worse for the consumer base than any of the alternatives.
Oh yeah, because Corvus Belli and their Dire Foes decision was so great for the consumer base.
That said--if they released it as content in WD, you'd have another category of complaints entirely when the issue went out of stock.
But making a unit nearly unplayable in the codex (genestealers) and releasing a dataslate to make them playable does, indeed, suck. And is not something I'm planning to support... will be making do the best I can with the base tyranid book.
Also, because as I said, I don't think a lot of tournies are going to allow Dataslates and formations. If you do, you have to let in the Tau Riptide/Broadside insanity ones, too, and the ones that just give a unit a special rule it doesn't normally have... it's too confusing, and tournies will have to draw the line somewhere.
GW is making this a very easy place to draw the line.
And you do realise that other companies usually give these theme forces for "free" with their army books or at least as "free" content in their respective magazines?
So in both cases, they're not actually "free". They're part of something else.
And I doubt that anyone would complain if GW adopted the same model and released them in the codex or as content in WD...
But please keep on defending decisions that are worse for the consumer base than any of the alternatives.
Oh yeah, because Corvus Belli and their Dire Foes decision was so great for the consumer base.
That said--if they released it as content in WD, you'd have another category of complaints entirely when the issue went out of stock.
So only release dataslates that have completely new and necessary rules (Be'Lakor) and give them out for free online at your home site, downloadable right next to the FAQs and Erratas.
Seriously I don't think anyone knows what's legal in a 'standard' game of 40K anymore. We have core rules, codices, codex supplements, rules supplements, rules expansions, forgeworld units in various books that may or may not be easy to acquire, datasheets, and dataslates. Everything goes? Is this a good way to run a game? Why did GW actually move away from this anarchistic approach a few editions ago? Why did they go back to it now?
Will the next edition of Warhammer kill the monobook armies in that game as well? Malekith and Tyrion will probably run some deathstar as battle brothers.
I feel the same. The dex should have everything in it to make it playable across the board on release. If GW put something out a year or so later to add some updates to the dex is one thing but to release it around the same time to make units that are mediocre playable so that my dex actually costs more for a decent army is unacceptable.
On top of that dataslates are not in hardcopy versions so many people will not be able/wont buy devices to use them. All rules for an army should be released in the same format.
As RiTides said GW is making it easier to stop buying GW product and encouraging people to walk away.
In the end, it hurts their profits to run their game badly... but that's for them to figure out over time. In the meantime, TOs will just have to exclude some of this nonsense in order to keep track of rules and be able to make calls in a tournament.
I don't agree with the dataslates either, so I will happily download it for free, if it's worth buying then I will, I downloaded the cypher one had a quick browse, loved the artwork and the amount of fluff etc. Deleted my downloaded copy and bought it legally, with the inane costs there asking for these things I refuse to waste money if I don't have to, on the flip side I'm happy to support a quality product and will pay if it's good.
But making a unit nearly unplayable in the codex (genestealers) and releasing a dataslate to make them playable does, indeed, suck. And is not something I'm planning to support... will be making do the best I can with the base tyranid book.
Also, because as I said, I don't think a lot of tournies are going to allow Dataslates and formations. If you do, you have to let in the Tau Riptide/Broadside insanity ones, too, and the ones that just give a unit a special rule it doesn't normally have... it's too confusing, and tournies will have to draw the line somewhere.
GW is making this a very easy place to draw the line.
I was intrigued with this announcement at first, as I thought maybe for just a second, the vanguard dataslate would include rules for Genestealer cults. Having been a fan of everything Genestealer since I picked up the original Space Hulk in 1989. The 2nd Edition codex had stuff on Genestealer cults and that's the last time we saw them.
I don't see why anyone is bothering to play this game competitively anymore. For all the reasons you listed here, and the fact that GW itself has plainly stated they are not interested in making a balanced tournament friendly game. They are diluting the game to the point of anarchy...play whatever you want any time you want. Its great for a beer-and-pretzels game with buddies in the garage, but as far as a balanced tournament ready game...it is anything but. TOs have to write their own separate tome of rules just to pull out and ban all of the nonsensical combinations and builds that completely break the game.
The Dataslates have one purpose, and one purpose only...to get you to pay more for army lists/options that would have normally come in the army book in previous editions, or as stated previously, as content in their monthly hobby magazine (*cough...overpriced product catalog...cough). Escalation was a ploy to legitimize the huge models they invested money in making for Apocalypse, which no-one ended up buying (Hey, now EVERYONE can use these!). They obviously care nothing for the integrity of the rules or the balance thereof. Every decision they make now is based on maximum short term profit.
I'm mainly disappointed that these are dataslates not supplements
If they 'blow' their Tyranids time/budget on a few new rules will they find it worth the trouble to put out some more in depth hive fleet background (even if it's reprints from older books)
To me they almost defeat the purpose of the FOC altogether. It also seems like 40K is moving closer and closer to Apocalypse, where you can field any combination of models from any army in the same force. But I guess GW feels there are more interesting narratives to those triple and quad codex armies than old fashioned mono codex armies. They're pretty much sacrificing every last ounce of integrity and resemblance of balance in the game just to make a few extra bucks.
Make no mistake I approve of the new Tyranids becoming stronger (if in fact that's what will happen), but I just despise the idea of dataslates and multi-allying as a whole.
Indeed the FOC ignoring part is just stupid. It would make much more sense if the units in the formation used slots normally, but once you got the specific combination of units they would get some bonus special rules.
If they 'blow' their Tyranids time/budget on a few new rules will they find it worth the trouble to put out some more in depth hive fleet background (even if it's reprints from older books)
Honestly, I think we're seeing the Dataslates first.
Dataslates are effectively "new" for GW.
I think what we'll see is an actual "supplement" with the Dataslates in them later on. We've seen the backlash from them not having print/physical versions available at the same time as the digital ones. GW doesn't generally take customer feedback seriously--except when it's something "new" for them.
To me they almost defeat the purpose of the FOC altogether. It also seems like 40K is moving closer and closer to Apocalypse, where you can field any combination of models from any army in the same force. But I guess GW feels there are more interesting narratives to those triple and quad codex armies than old fashioned mono codex armies. They're pretty much sacrificing every last ounce of integrity and resemblance of balance in the game just to make a few extra bucks.
Make no mistake I approve of the new Tyranids becoming stronger (if in fact that's what will happen), but I just despise the idea of dataslates and multi-allying as a whole.
Indeed the FOC ignoring part is just stupid. It would make much more sense if the units in the formation used slots normally, but once you got the specific combination of units they would get some bonus special rules.
Oaka wrote: It's getting to the point where if I see Marneus Calgar and the Swarmlord in the same unit as a Riptide, I probably won't question its legality.
Dataslates must be extremely profitable for GW and will probably be the way forward for releasing new units and rules. I just can't see the hardbound supplements being published anymore considering the lack of releases since Black Legion. I'd even venture to say that they probably wish they could get out of publishing bound books altogether.
When was the last time we saw a PDF FAQ for any codices?
themonk wrote: Dataslates must be extremely profitable for GW and will probably be the way forward for releasing new units and rules. I just can't see the hardbound supplements being published anymore considering the lack of releases since Black Legion. I'd even venture to say that they probably wish they could get out of publishing bound books altogether.
When was the last time we saw a PDF FAQ for any codices?
Gah, that's true. It's been a while 0_o
I hope they don't quick read of paper books. I prefer to have a hard copy on hand.
themonk wrote: Dataslates must be extremely profitable for GW and will probably be the way forward for releasing new units and rules. I just can't see the hardbound supplements being published anymore considering the lack of releases since Black Legion. I'd even venture to say that they probably wish they could get out of publishing bound books altogether.
When was the last time we saw a PDF FAQ for any codices?
Gah, that's true. It's been a while 0_o
I hope they don't quick read of paper books. I prefer to have a hard copy on hand.
Me too! I would buy a bound copy of the Cypher Dataslate just for the incredible artwork and fluff.
Oaka wrote: It's getting to the point where if I see Marneus Calgar and the Swarmlord in the same unit as a Riptide, I probably won't question its legality.
Now now, Tyranids aren't allowed to have options!
But I could see Ghazkul and a Riptide and Calgar attached to Coteaz...
Otherwise, I pray to all the Gods of Chaos that GW would just release an annual compendium of dataslates every year or something. If this is becoming a thing, they could just make a $30 SA size book every december with the last years worth of Dataslates in it, and a few new pieces of art and fluff. You can pick and choose yours digitally if you want it, but it isn't worth printing individual dataslates, so sell them bulk!
Plus, a Hive Fleet Leviathan supplement with Ymgarls...
And a Hive Fleet Naga supplement with the Doom...
And... and... Spores? I will pay $50 for a dataslate with Mycetic spores in it!
Anyone remember those days when alternate rules were included in the base army lists? Or even when they had cheap mini-dex variant lists?
Well, I strongly believe in paying for stuff that's worth it, and not buying stuff that isn't (or when it's just absurdly overpriced). Maybe it's because I'm old, but I just don't see the value in PDFs with minimal formatting, recycled illustrations, and a couple rules. I've looked at a couple (Cypher and inquisition) and found them embarrassingly low quality for those prices...
Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hey Paul,
That release will be infiltrating it's way onto eReaders before the end of January, so you won't be waiting to long.
Oaka wrote: It's getting to the point where if I see Marneus Calgar and the Swarmlord in the same unit as a Riptide, I probably won't question its legality.
Exalted!
And - sad but true and hilarious, all at the same time!
well like a lot of people i was pretty cynical about gw's holding back of cypher rules in order to release them as a data slate. But when it came to release, the content was actually pretty good. Plenty of art work, fluff and rules options, may not have been everyone's cup of tea but to my mind, definitely not a greedy money grab.
So, i'm going to wait and see. Hopefully these new data sheets will have loads of fluff and info that will satiate the fans. If not and it is simply a money grab then meh. I don't play nids so i don't really care, but it would bode ill for the guard release
I am not too happy with this, considering the completeness of my Space marines codex compared to the Nidz one. But, if they complete the codex withing a month or two with dataslates that I have to pay extra for, I will pay that money. Its evil, but I will accept this as a necessity and move on.
My beloved orks will surelly be released this year and if the economic model works for GW, I will pay for complete rules for my green skins if I have to.
Now, lets cross our fingers for Mycetic spores and Doom of Malant'ai models released in parallel to Dataslates as proof of concept of the design (double Ca$hing for GW).
At the very least, these two would be back in business.
Honestly Im going to get the rules off the net and write them down in a text document and tape them inside my codex where they should have been from the start.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Given the pitiful accuracy of 'nid rumours, maybe we all lost hope in this BOLS story of three imminent Dataslates.
One will be genestealer based, one one big bugs, and one on flyers (gargoyles as troops, but no walking monsters. Hmmmm).
Anyway, GW Digital confirmed today on their Facebook page that the Vanguard Infestation dataslate, due out before the end of Jan, is indeed the first of a trilogy.
"We announced in this month's issue of White Dwarf that, starting later this month, the first in a trilogy of new Tyranid Dataslates will be released.
All three of these are going to have new datasheet formations for Tyranid armies to use, and if you're a fan of Genestealers (I know i am, far to many games of Space Hulk in my teenage years), I think you're going to like the first installment in the trilogy." (Eddie, GW Digital)
Are GW horrible grasping capitalists for separating this stuff from the codex? Hell, yeah. Will I buy at least one? Hell, yeah.
Where EXACTLY is this quote?
I cant' find it on the facebook page, or in black library.
As soon as I read the codex I noticed the little blurbs about all the different units (ymgarls, spores, doom, etc). I had a sneaking suspicion that GW was going to have separate supplements/dataslates to allow access to these units. The description of these dataslates fits right into that hunch.
Who knows though. If Im right there is a blurb about the dominatrix which would be awesome
This new scheme really justles my jimmies and chuffs my nuts.
Why not release the whole codex from the get go, instead of delivering half initially for the cost of a full codex, and then asking for more money for the rest of the codex.
I'm dreading the Guard codex. I can see it now; Supplement Artillery and Supplement Tanks!
Iechine wrote: Honestly Im going to get the rules off the net and write them down in a text document and tape them inside my codex where they should have been from the start.
I love this.
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Blacksails wrote: This new scheme really justles my jimmies and chuffs my nuts.
Why not release the whole codex from the get go, instead of delivering half initially for the cost of a full codex, and then asking for more money for the rest of the codex.
I'm dreading the Guard codex. I can see it now; Supplement Artillery and Supplement Tanks!
Awful.
Yeah, it grind my gears and gnaws on my elbows too.
The Tyranid codex is basically Codex:unfinished bs and the three supplements should all be supplement: things we completed but not in time for the release of the nid 'dex.
Sounds cool, I certainly intend to legally purchase these in order to finally make my obscenely expensive and also legally purchased army book complete.
I was disappointed with Genestealer's and I would love some extra love (even if small) to make them a little better on the battlefield.
I understand they make a bit more money doing things this way but hell.. I have 5 bucks to throw at a unit and am more than happy too!
Seriously... its $5.. I spend more then that on candy crush in a month!
Its the principle of the matter.
These dataslates (assuming they're what most have predicted) should have been in the codex from the get go. Instead, now people have to buy the codex, and then pay for these little nuisances that add stuff that should have come with the initial $60 tag. It isn't even hard, nor is it something that was beyond the players' expectations. Frankly, its almost disrespectful, if I can use that against a corporation.
But then again, they thrive off of people like you who don't find it an inconvenience or blatant money grabbing for increasingly awful products. Then again, I don't understand how people can spend money on games like Candy Crush in the first place.
What do I know. Maybe I'm bitter. Rabble rabble rabble and whatnot. I'd rather spend my money on gaming companies that produce quality everything who adapt and fix their game according to playtesting and interaction with the community. Maybe I'm just a hippie.
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Dakkamite wrote: Sounds cool, I certainly intend to legally purchase these in order to finally make my obscenely expensive and also legally purchased army book complete.
I cant' find it on the facebook page, or in black library.
It's on Games Workshop Digital Editions, in reply to people. You have to look at user posted comments and see where GW Digital Editions replied.
My sincere apologies, but I went back and read comments all the way back to late December. I even did searches for a variety of strings from the quote.
Perhaps I missed it, but can someone either give the date of this comment, or a screen shot of it.
I was disappointed with Genestealer's and I would love some extra love (even if small) to make them a little better on the battlefield.
I understand they make a bit more money doing things this way but hell.. I have 5 bucks to throw at a unit and am more than happy too!
Seriously... its $5.. I spend more then that on candy crush in a month!
Its the principle of the matter.
These dataslates (assuming they're what most have predicted) should have been in the codex from the get go. Instead, now people have to buy the codex, and then pay for these little nuisances that add stuff that should have come with the initial $60 tag. It isn't even hard, nor is it something that was beyond the players' expectations. Frankly, its almost disrespectful, if I can use that against a corporation.
But then again, they thrive off of people like you who don't find it an inconvenience or blatant money grabbing for increasingly awful products. Then again, I don't understand how people can spend money on games like Candy Crush in the first place.
What do I know. Maybe I'm bitter. Rabble rabble rabble and whatnot. I'd rather spend my money on gaming companies that produce quality everything who adapt and fix their game according to playtesting and interaction with the community. Maybe I'm just a hippie.
And that's the crux of the matter.
NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IS IN THE DATASLATES YET.
All we know so far is that the first dataslate is Vanguard Organisms, and per White Dwarf? The dataslate contains Lictors, Genestealers, "and more".
Doesn't stop people getting all rabble rabble rabble though.
I cant' find it on the facebook page, or in black library.
It's on Games Workshop Digital Editions, in reply to people. You have to look at user posted comments and see where GW Digital Editions replied.
My sincere apologies, but I went back and read comments all the way back to late December. I even did searches for a variety of strings from the quote.
Perhaps I missed it, but can someone either give the date of this comment, or a screen shot of it.
Thanks.
January 13th.
You're looking for a comment with an attached photo of Genestealers.
And that's the crux of the matter.
NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IS IN THE DATASLATES YET.
All we know so far is that the first dataslate is Vanguard Organisms, and per White Dwarf? The dataslate contains Lictors, Genestealers, "and more".
Doesn't stop people getting all rabble rabble rabble though.
Well we do know it has Lictors, Genestealers, and "more", so we got that going for us, which is nice.
I'll reserve my final judgement for when it drops, but GW doesn't exactly have a great track record. I still find the whole 'DLC' thing distasteful either way.
Iechine wrote: Honestly Im going to get the rules off the net and write them down in a text document and tape them inside my codex where they should have been from the start.
I love this.
Yes. Looking forward to the using these rules, but certainly not going to pay to affirm there new marketing path.
I cant' find it on the facebook page, or in black library.
It's on Games Workshop Digital Editions, in reply to people. You have to look at user posted comments and see where GW Digital Editions replied.
My sincere apologies, but I went back and read comments all the way back to late December. I even did searches for a variety of strings from the quote.
Perhaps I missed it, but can someone either give the date of this comment, or a screen shot of it.
Thanks.
January 13th.
You're looking for a comment with an attached photo of Genestealers.
My apologies perhaps for being blind, but I did not find this potentially very exciting news, which I am surprised has not yet shown up in many other places.
Here are the comments from the 13th, including the mentioned pic...
If we only had print to work with then maybe the data slates wouldn't be available at all, codex or no?
Sure, I may be guessing at the content, but going off the other dataslates and supplements, they're not exactly paragons of great writing, proper rules, or worth the cost they charge for them. That and the idea behind them just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Why not just have included all this extra stuff in the basic codex? That's the way it was before, and I don't see a reason why it couldn't continue to happen. Its all for profit.
Simply put, my stance is that I find these dataslates and supplements to be another variation of DLCs that could have been easily included in the base cost.
Anyways, I'm clogging up this thread more than I intended, so I'll leave it for rumours and news and such.
I absolutely hate the idea of dataslates. It's worse than DLC for a video game (which I also don't like). I also don't like FW models being anything more than "with opponent's consent". Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of special characters losing the "with opponent's consent" tag.
IMO, you should be able to know all the rules by which a game is going to be played BEFORE you play it. Yes, there's a lot of armies, but previously I could go in to a GW store and spend some time flicking through the different codices, know the rules, play a couple of opponents and within not too long you'd know the rules for the armies you'd be playing against.
Now, with rules all over the place and exceptions to rules all over the place, it's impossible to do that.
THAT pisses me off more than simply the price of it... though I'm not overly keen on the price either
I have not seen any of GWs dataslates. This is the first one that I have been interested in. Based on the other releases do the ever amount to much? Based on past patterns what are the odds the changes will be significant enough to make genestealers viable in anyway?
Zookie wrote: I have not seen any of GWs dataslates. This is the first one that I have been interested in. Based on the other releases do the ever amount to much? Based on past patterns what are the odds the changes will be significant enough to make genestealers viable in anyway?
Frankly, there isn't enough precedent to really predict. I suspect that this weekend's Tyrannic War Vets will be closer to the template of what these dataslates will be. Personally, I'm expecting more along the lines of the Cypher one than anything else we've seen though (which would probably be a good thing).
PhantomViper wrote: So GW now releases a codex and immediately after releases "theme armies" for that same codex that customers have to pay all over again to get? And people still buy them?!
I guess its true what they say, there is one born every minute...
Heh. Effectively day 1 DLC. I'm not surprised. At least they're not hard to acquire unlike the SoBWD rules were...
Blacksails wrote: This new scheme really justles my jimmies and chuffs my nuts.
Why not release the whole codex from the get go, instead of delivering half initially for the cost of a full codex, and then asking for more money for the rest of the codex.
I'm dreading the Guard codex. I can see it now; Supplement Artillery and Supplement Tanks!
Awful.
I can see the tank army as a supplement it used to be a WD army at one point.
And you do realise that other companies usually give these theme forces for "free" with their army books or at least as "free" content in their respective magazines?
So in both cases, they're not actually "free". They're part of something else.
And I doubt that anyone would complain if GW adopted the same model and released them in the codex or as content in WD...
But please keep on defending decisions that are worse for the consumer base than any of the alternatives.
Oh yeah, because Corvus Belli and their Dire Foes decision was so great for the consumer base.
.
Think you're being a bit disingenuous there mate. I don't think you can really liken this to Dire Foes at all, considering that we're talking about a company that gives most of its rules away for free, and has spent years of playtesting attempting to achieve a balance with its game.
The screenshot posted above backs up the Infiltration Release, mentioned in White Dwarf. THis I think is the first confirmation it will arrive this month.
The screenshot below confirms there are three 'nid releases.I agree it's a pain paying a fiver. But if it helps us use £40 or £50 of genestealers, what are we gonna do, abandon our babies, sunder them from the job they love?
you know what? feth GW, they want me to pay money, to be able to use something I have already paid money for?
usually, I don't approve of downloading GW things illegally, but perhaps this "data-slate" bull crap will force my hand...
I like the way (apart from the cost, but only slightly) we are now getting a huge amount of customisation with our lists. It really adds to the narrative and I enjoy the variations in the rules. The farsight book was great, looking forward to the Flyers list (as that was my wish for the codex) or a chance to run a genestealer list properly
I'm looking forward to them, might get some of our old units back hopefully.
What I do not like however is how much of a blatant money grab this is. If the dataslates were reasliss around March/April time onwards I wouldn't care, but it's the fact that pne is being realised the same month as the codex, essentially saying the codex sucks and we know it does, buy our dataslates and you might be able to do well!
My money is on the idea that one of those dataslates contains rules for mycetic spore pods and another for the special characters that got removed.
What I do not like however is how much of a blatant money grab this is. If the dataslates were reasliss around March/April time onwards I wouldn't care, but it's the fact that pne is being realised the same month as the codex, essentially saying the codex sucks and we know it does, buy our dataslates and you might be able to do well!
If the rumours about the designers running out of time with the codex are true, it is possible that this is their way to patch it instead of it being a mere money grab. It remains to be seen with the next codex release whether this is actually a new, planned strategy, or merely a one time panic move to fix a broken codex.
What I do not like however is how much of a blatant money grab this is. If the dataslates were reasliss around March/April time onwards I wouldn't care, but it's the fact that pne is being realised the same month as the codex, essentially saying the codex sucks and we know it does, buy our dataslates and you might be able to do well!
If the rumours about the designers running out of time with the codex are true, it is possible that this is their way to patch it instead of it being a mere money grab. It remains to be seen with the next codex release whether this is actually a new, planned strategy, or merely a one time panic move to fix a broken codex.
I'm currently 50/50 on whether that rumour is true or not, because with that rumour came the idea that the play testers told the deisgners that it was poorly balanced and written badly a few months before the deadline came, the designers chose to ignore them. But if they were rushed to push this product, then kudos to them for getting data slates out so quickly to rectify it. Only time will tell I guess.
Also, do you know where that rumour came from? because I first read it on the hoooooooge tyranid rumor/discussion thread but I can't find anyone citing a source, so it could actually be a GW employee saying that, just to try and stop the hate, but im not that much of a miserable so and so, so I don't believe that
JWhex wrote: For the price you are paying for a codex it is ridiculous to have to pay extra for this content.
Oh please. You're talking about $6.99 for a Dataslate as though it's some obscene amount, with no idea of exactly what kind of content is within.
NO HE ISNT!
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
Add-ons and top-ups might be a mere 6.99, so what happens when they start releasing them every other week, over the space of 4 years, and you need them to remain able to fight what everyone else is buying? (well, the everyone else who's left playing).
I personally am very worried that this, along with many other changes taking place in 6th, are killing the game, the hobby and the company, in the long term and I'd really like them to stop jumping shark after shark and reign it back in a bit, before they screw a jump and the shark gets them.
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
This argument that is carried on over and over seems crazy to me, you didn't hear one Demons player complaining about Belakor not being in thier codex and demanding his dataslate for free. The codex is fully playable, maybe not to the level that many people personally desire, but it is. A dataslate is not content that should of been required in the codex and it is not a right for people to own because they bought an over-priced codex.
I don't advocate the purchase of dataslates in the least. Actually I refuse to buy them. But they are bonus content that GW pays to produce.
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
This argument that is carried on over and over seems crazy to me, you didn't hear one Demons player complaining about Belakor not being in thier codex and demanding his dataslate for free. The codex is fully playable, maybe not to the level that many people personally desire, but it is. A dataslate is not content that should of been required in the codex and it is not a right for people to own because they bought an over-priced codex.
I don't advocate the purchase of dataslates in the least. Actually I refuse to buy them. But they are bonus content that GW pays to produce.
I said it can be questioned.
And why on earth shouldn't dataslates or whatever be free?
PDF codices used to be free, there used to be full rules for using new models online for free. If you produce a good set of additional rules, for free, online, your sales of the model will go up... So asking for more money for the rules themselves, when we have other companies putting their entire ruleset online for free, seems a little desperate/greedy/like your trying to fight back the recently released financial report by clutching for every last grain of sand???
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
This argument that is carried on over and over seems crazy to me, you didn't hear one Demons player complaining about Belakor not being in thier codex and demanding his dataslate for free. The codex is fully playable, maybe not to the level that many people personally desire, but it is. A dataslate is not content that should of been required in the codex and it is not a right for people to own because they bought an over-priced codex.
I don't advocate the purchase of dataslates in the least. Actually I refuse to buy them. But they are bonus content that GW pays to produce.
Because What we're starting to see is a pay-to-win model where if you don't have the latest datasheets/supplements then your behind those that do. This is something new to the tyranid codex..
Kanluwen wrote: The PDF codices that were free had been published in White Dwarf originally. The PDFs went up after the White Dwarfs were long gone.
...has no point, no bearing on the fact they were freely available and, if now released, would cost in excess of $30.
But thanks for the random factoid.
Except for the fact that it does have a point, whether you want it to or not. They published the rules in White Dwarf which you had to buy if you wanted the rules.
It was not until long after the stock of White Dwarfs was gone that they went up for free.
The only way without allowing them to assault from deepstrike (the logical way) is to not allow them to be the targets of ranged weapons and/or reduce a target units movement by d3 or something.
This way, they can appear, not assault, but still have the fluffy advantage of being really deadly to the target unit they have been stalking.
My concern is that even if they are the fix (doubtful) that the Tyranids need it's looking like the major tournies like Templecon arn't going to be allowing datalsate formations (which is not necessarily a bad thing after the ridiculously OP Tau Hunter Cadre).
Kanluwen wrote: The PDF codices that were free had been published in White Dwarf originally. The PDFs went up after the White Dwarfs were long gone.
...has no point, no bearing on the fact they were freely available and, if now released, would cost in excess of $30.
But thanks for the random factoid.
Except for the fact that it does have a point, whether you want it to or not. They published the rules in White Dwarf which you had to buy if you wanted the rules.
It was not until long after the stock of White Dwarfs was gone that they went up for free.
But really. We're getting off topic.
One question for you, was there, for quite some time, free to download gaming content, including PDFs, on the GW site? Yes or No?
If the answer to my question is yes, then my original point stands, just as it did when I made it, and all your posted counters are pointless, because they relate to no issue I made... So you've just wasted your posting energies on arguing a strawman that has no bearing on what I've said.
Whether or not they were printed in a magazine, written in the clouds by a plane or inscribed on the eyelids of pedants making random unrelated points on the internet is not an issue, the issue was that they were made available and free online. Free content was provided by the company, it can be strongly argued that this free content contributed to sales of miniatures to people who wished to use those armies.
JWhex wrote: For the price you are paying for a codex it is ridiculous to have to pay extra for this content.
Oh please. You're talking about $6.99 for a Dataslate as though it's some obscene amount, with no idea of exactly what kind of content is within.
NO HE ISNT!
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
Add-ons and top-ups might be a mere 6.99, so what happens when they start releasing them every other week, over the space of 4 years, and you need them to remain able to fight what everyone else is buying? (well, the everyone else who's left playing).
I personally am very worried that this, along with many other changes taking place in 6th, are killing the game, the hobby and the company, in the long term and I'd really like them to stop jumping shark after shark and reign it back in a bit, before they screw a jump and the shark gets them.
From a business perspective what GW is doing makes sense. If you are a casual gamer, you do not NEED to pick up the dataslates. You can buy them if it interests you. If you want to be competitive then you may need them. It has always been more costly to compete. However, if tournaments ban them, then it will not be necessary to buy them at all.
I find the more frequent introduction of rules and units refreshing and a good thing. This being said, these types of things should not follow right on the heels of the codex.
Regular releases have not killed games like MTG. I do not think that it will for 40k. It would be nice to get stuff for an army more than once every four or so years.
I stopped buying GW stuff a couple of years ago, so this does not effect me very much. I still play their games occasionally.
buddha wrote: My concern is that even if they are the fix (doubtful) that the Tyranids need it's looking like the major tournies like Templecon arn't going to be allowing datalsate formations (which is not necessarily a bad thing after the ridiculously OP Tau Hunter Cadre).
Doesn't look like tyrnaids can catch a break.
That's exactly the problem. You can't easily allow all Dataslates because of that nonsense.
Well when you buy 3 pages of rules make sure to thank GW for allowing you to spend money on rules that should have been included in the 100 page 50$ rulebook.
Thats a brilliant idea! Prior to checkout GW makes you checkmark a box that says "Thank you for this micro transaction GW, perhaps next time I'll pay 10$ instead if you let me"
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
This argument that is carried on over and over seems crazy to me, you didn't hear one Demons player complaining about Belakor not being in thier codex and demanding his dataslate for free. .
What kind of piss-poor argument is this?
Was Belakor's release announced one day after Daemons came out?
No. There is a clear distinction between "additional content" and "content that was obviously taken out of the codex so that it could be sold later".
It's why you'll never see a gamer complain about the DLC that comes out for, say, Fallout or Skyrim, which are massive packs of additional content and come out months after the game's release, but you DO hear them bitch about "Day 1 DLC" and gak that's being sold as additional content but was obviously created at the same time as the game.
"Additional content" should be additional. It shouldn't be content that was clearly created at the exact same time as an entire product yet held back by some bean-counter so that it could be released as a separate entity later.
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
This argument that is carried on over and over seems crazy to me, you didn't hear one Demons player complaining about Belakor not being in thier codex and demanding his dataslate for free. .
What kind of piss-poor argument is this?
Was Belakor's release announced one day after Daemons came out?
No. There is a clear distinction between "additional content" and "content that was obviously taken out of the codex so that it could be sold later".
It's why you'll never see a gamer complain about the DLC that comes out for, say, Fallout or Skyrim, which are massive packs of additional content and come out months after the game's release, but you DO hear them bitch about "Day 1 DLC" and gak that's being sold as additional content but was obviously created at the same time as the game.
"Additional content" should be additional. It shouldn't be content that was clearly created at the exact same time as an entire product yet held back by some bean-counter so that it could be released as a separate entity later.
There was remarkably little complaining about Cypher's obvious omission from the Dark Angel codex. There was a huge amount of complaints about the price, *before* people realised that it was actually more a mini-dex.
I really don't see the problem in paying a few pounds more for a mini-dex - as long as it *is* a mini-dex with fluff, lots of rules options etc. Stuff like this hasn't been "held back" because it was never a part of codexes to begin with, very few codex releases have had a myriad of unique and fun ways to play your army, certainly the Dark Angels codex would have been huge if it contained everything in the Cypher data slate.
Also this "dlc created at the same time as the game" is a myth. If you follow Paradox games you'll know that DLC is created *after* the devs have finished the product and it's in the production/marketing eather. In 40k terms, the game developers start working on data slates after the codex has been written, while it is being printed/edited etc. Since the dataslates do not need this process, it is a rational way to operate - it would actually be *more* effort to work on the data slates at the same time as they work on the codex, and working on dataslates after the codex has gone to print gives them the certainty of knowing what the codex contains. You can't have a derivative dataslate in production at the same time as the codex, when the dataslate is reliant on the codex's information, which would be subject to change during development.
The above is all assuming that the data slates are (what I would deem to be) value for money. If it is just a cut/paste from the codex then bad form GW. But I don't think they'd do something so gratuitous.
There was remarkably little complaining about Cypher's obvious omission from the Dark Angel codex. There was a huge amount of complaints about the price, *before* people realised that it was actually more a mini-dex.
I really don't see the problem in paying a few pounds more for a mini-dex - as long as it *is* a mini-dex with fluff, lots of rules options etc. Stuff like this hasn't been "held back" because it was never a part of codexes to begin with, very few codex releases have had a myriad of unique and fun ways to play your army, certainly the Dark Angels codex would have been huge if it contained everything in the Cypher data slate.
Also this "dlc created at the same time as the game" is a myth. If you follow Paradox games you'll know that DLC is created *after* the devs have finished the product and it's in the production/marketing eather. In 40k terms, the game developers start working on data slates after the codex has been written, while it is being printed/edited etc. Since the dataslates do not need this process, it is a rational way to operate - it would actually be *more* effort to work on the data slates at the same time as they work on the codex, and working on dataslates after the codex has gone to print gives them the certainty of knowing what the codex contains. You can't have a derivative dataslate in production at the same time as the codex, when the dataslate is reliant on the codex's information, which would be subject to change during development.
Cypher? That guy who was released 12 MONTHS after the Dark Angels release?
Do you know what a "false-equivalency" is?
Created "after" print? That's a joke. How long do you think it takes to take a unit, write a page of fluff for it, and then slap some "special rules" like "Ymgarl Genestealers can assault after deployment"?
The only reason Ymgarl genestealers and other missing units didn't make it into the 6E codex is because Games Workshop made a purposeful decision to not include them. That is the point.
Cypher? That guy who was released 12 MONTHS after the Dark Angels release?
Do you know what a "false-equivalency" is?
Well it's my opinion that Cypher was deliberately held back from the DA codex, if only because the DA codex was 6th edition and the deamon codex (which also had a model without rules) was also 6th edition. It could just be a coincidence of course
Elemental wrote: How would you have reacted if the price of the codex had been more honestly hiked to $75? Because that is what's happening.
LOL I live in Australia.. I bought my codex for $83 so totally fine with $75
Did people care so much when things similar to this were released in the white dwarf? I mean... the argument for "why wasent this in the codex" could of been used then? Is this not similar to a digital release of that information just on a grander scale?
And what about chapter approved? I am not 100% but didnt that contain extra rules?
There was remarkably little complaining about Cypher's obvious omission from the Dark Angel codex.
Why the hell Cypher would have been in DA codex? It would make about as much sense than Yarrick being in Ork codex (or indeed Tyrannic war veterans being in Tyranid codex.)
There was remarkably little complaining about Cypher's obvious omission from the Dark Angel codex.
Why the hell Cypher would have been in DA codex? It would make about as much sense than Yarrick being in Ork codex (or indeed Tyrannic war veterans being in Tyranid codex.)
Cypher was in the 3rd Edition Codex (iirc the first, or the first modern codex anyway), hiis omission from the 6th edition codex disapointed a lot of Dark Angel vets.. Imo if it weren't for the data slate format he would have been in the 6th Edition DA codex; since the designers cearly hadn't forgotten about him or purged him from the fluff, and he already has a model - there would be no cost whatsoever.
Frankly I still think it's more of a mystery of why he was cut from the 5th edition Dark Angel codex. As I say, he does have a model out and they're not above just c&ping his fluff.
Elemental wrote: How would you have reacted if the price of the codex had been more honestly hiked to $75? Because that is what's happening.
LOL I live in Australia.. I bought my codex for $83 so totally fine with $75
Did people care so much when things similar to this were released in the white dwarf? I mean... the argument for "why wasent this in the codex" could of been used then? Is this not similar to a digital release of that information just on a grander scale?
And what about chapter approved? I am not 100% but didnt that contain extra rules?
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm assuming that GW wouldn't be goofy enough to count the Tyrannic War Veterans e-book as one of the three Tyranid slates?
Lol. But no, there is a difference. It's not that we dont like paying extra (which we dont) it's that it is PAINFULLY obvious that GW has made our codex BULL CRAP, killing a certain model, just to sell us this dataslate bull crap.
"All three of these are going to have new datasheet formations for Tyranid armies to use"
Would suggest no.
Why, you don't believe GW would allow Tyrannic War Veterans to ally with Tyranids to fight against Ultramarines ?
There was remarkably little complaining about Cypher's obvious omission from the Dark Angel codex.
Why the hell Cypher would have been in DA codex? It would make about as much sense than Yarrick being in Ork codex (or indeed Tyrannic war veterans being in Tyranid codex.)
Cypher was in the 3rd Edition Codex (iirc the first, or the first modern codex anyway), hiis omission from the 6th edition codex disapointed a lot of Dark Angel vets.. Imo if it weren't for the data slate format he would have been in the 6th Edition DA codex; since the designers cearly hadn't forgotten about him or purged him from the fluff, and he already has a model - there would be no cost whatsoever.
Frankly I still think it's more of a mystery of why he was cut from the 5th edition Dark Angel codex. As I say, he does have a model out and they're not above just c&ping his fluff.
Ummm Cypher was in the 3rd edition CSM Codex, not the DA codex. I'm flipping through it right now just to confirm it.
JWhex wrote: For the price you are paying for a codex it is ridiculous to have to pay extra for this content.
Oh please. You're talking about $6.99 for a Dataslate as though it's some obscene amount, with no idea of exactly what kind of content is within.
NO HE ISNT!
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
Add-ons and top-ups might be a mere 6.99, so what happens when they start releasing them every other week, over the space of 4 years, and you need them to remain able to fight what everyone else is buying? (well, the everyone else who's left playing).
I personally am very worried that this, along with many other changes taking place in 6th, are killing the game, the hobby and the company, in the long term and I'd really like them to stop jumping shark after shark and reign it back in a bit, before they screw a jump and the shark gets them.
From a business perspective what GW is doing makes sense. If you are a casual gamer, you do not NEED to pick up the dataslates. You can buy them if it interests you. If you want to be competitive then you may need them. It has always been more costly to compete. However, if tournaments ban them, then it will not be necessary to buy them at all.
I find the more frequent introduction of rules and units refreshing and a good thing. This being said, these types of things should not follow right on the heels of the codex.
Regular releases have not killed games like MTG. I do not think that it will for 40k. It would be nice to get stuff for an army more than once every four or so years.
I stopped buying GW stuff a couple of years ago, so this does not effect me very much. I still play their games occasionally.
There exist companies in the miniature wargaming industry that regularly release new unit profiles, new missions and other new material on their website, for free. This is what Games Workshop USED to do.
bodazoka wrote: And what about chapter approved? I am not 100% but didnt that contain extra rules?
It did, but there was never the feeling that they were deliberately making the codices worse to justify selling those extra rules separately. These were not Day 1 DLC, and for a while there you could tell the developers were trying damn hard to make the codices the best they could be.
bodazoka wrote: And what about chapter approved? I am not 100% but didnt that contain extra rules?
It did, but there was never the feeling that they were deliberately making the codices worse to justify selling those extra rules separately. These were not Day 1 DLC, and for a while there you could tell the developers were trying damn hard to make the codices the best they could be.
People that think they make rules poor to sell more product need to put there tin hats back on...
Was Belakor's release announced one day after Daemons came out?
No. There is a clear distinction between "additional content" and "content that was obviously taken out of the codex so that it could be sold later".
It's why you'll never see a gamer complain about the DLC that comes out for, say, Fallout or Skyrim, which are massive packs of additional content and come out months after the game's release, but you DO hear them bitch about "Day 1 DLC" and gak that's being sold as additional content but was obviously created at the same time as the game.
"Additional content" should be additional. It shouldn't be content that was clearly created at the exact same time as an entire product yet held back by some bean-counter so that it could be released as a separate entity later.
I certainly do not know what is in the dataslates. It is a bit premature to argue that they have content that was held back from the codex. I would not be surprised if they were just gakky apoc type units. The usual formula is to impose some kind of unit restrictions, and also to have some special rule (which may come from the rulebook.) For example your tyranid advance force must have the Lictor character as HQ and at least two squads of genesteelers. Any unit in your army may outflank. (I hope that GW puts more effort into it than this. However, it would not surprise me if they did not.)
Other companies give profiles away for free becasue they are a lot smaller than GW and need to grow their player base. Privateer Press have an app with some of their stats on but the rest are paid for DLC.
He's talking about the price of a codex, one that can be questioned as having being produced intentionally lacking content, in order to generate additional sales with more game-valuable content in online transactions.
This argument that is carried on over and over seems crazy to me, you didn't hear one Demons player complaining about Belakor not being in thier codex and demanding his dataslate for free. The codex is fully playable, maybe not to the level that many people personally desire, but it is. A dataslate is not content that should of been required in the codex and it is not a right for people to own because they bought an over-priced codex.
I don't advocate the purchase of dataslates in the least. Actually I refuse to buy them. But they are bonus content that GW pays to produce.
I said it can be questioned.
And why on earth shouldn't dataslates or whatever be free?
PDF codices used to be free, there used to be full rules for using new models online for free. If you produce a good set of additional rules, for free, online, your sales of the model will go up... So asking for more money for the rules themselves, when we have other companies putting their entire ruleset online for free, seems a little desperate/greedy/like your trying to fight back the recently released financial report by clutching for every last grain of sand???
They are a model company first and foremost, so this would.make sense to do again.
Bloodwin wrote: Other companies give profiles away for free becasue they are a lot smaller than GW and need to grow their player base. Privateer Press have an app with some of their stats on but the rest are paid for DLC.
The digital version are, but you also get physical cards for free with the miniatures.
Bloodwin wrote: Other companies give profiles away for free becasue they are a lot smaller than GW and need to grow their player base. Privateer Press have an app with some of their stats on but the rest are paid for DLC.
You don't have the first clue about what you are talking about.
Theme forces that are the PP equivalent of dataslates come included in the normal Warmahordes books.
Any extra Theme forces that PP decides to launch are released for free in No Quarter (the PP equivalent to White Dwarf), and also, again for no extra cost, in their digital app.
There was remarkably little complaining about Cypher's obvious omission from the Dark Angel codex.
Why the hell Cypher would have been in DA codex? It would make about as much sense than Yarrick being in Ork codex (or indeed Tyrannic war veterans being in Tyranid codex.)
Cypher was in the 3rd Edition Codex (iirc the first, or the first modern codex anyway), hiis omission from the 6th edition codex disapointed a lot of Dark Angel vets.. Imo if it weren't for the data slate format he would have been in the 6th Edition DA codex; since the designers cearly hadn't forgotten about him or purged him from the fluff, and he already has a model - there would be no cost whatsoever.
Frankly I still think it's more of a mystery of why he was cut from the 5th edition Dark Angel codex. As I say, he does have a model out and they're not above just c&ping his fluff.
Ummm Cypher was in the 3rd edition CSM Codex, not the DA codex. I'm flipping through it right now just to confirm it.
In fact, Cypher has NEVER been in a DA Codex. He appeared in the 2nd Ed Chaos Codex, 3rd Ed Chaos Codex, a White Dwarf issue, and now this DLC. There's no reason for him to be in a DA book as he's not(and never has been) field-able by them.
If anything, he should have been in the CSM book, but no one complained about it because he hadn't been included in one in 3 books and 3 editions.
bodazoka wrote: Bought the war veterans dataslate you havent?
Space marines -> I am not buying. Except maybe if they are being slowly tortured, and NOT by other space marines. Or at least ridiculed by some puny craven commissar, so Ciaphas Cain's book are okay.
In fact, Cypher has NEVER been in a DA Codex. He appeared in the 2nd Ed Chaos Codex, 3rd Ed Chaos Codex, a White Dwarf issue, and now this DLC. There's no reason for him to be in a DA book as he's not(and never has been) field-able by them.
His page on the website hilariously still says he can be used as a count-as Dark Angels commander (despite how his Dataslate says he can't). Although despite how he's stated to be useable as a Dark Angels commander, he's always been only in the Chaos Marine section of the site and not in the Dark Angels army list section.
I'll hold my judgement until I see the dataslates. If GW end up releasing a dataslate that lets you take 2+ saves on Tyranids, then I'll finally know it is pay-to-win.
In fact, Cypher has NEVER been in a DA Codex. He appeared in the 2nd Ed Chaos Codex, 3rd Ed Chaos Codex, a White Dwarf issue, and now this DLC. There's no reason for him to be in a DA book as he's not(and never has been) field-able by them.
His page on the website hilariously still says he can be used as a count-as Dark Angels commander (despite how his Dataslate says he can't). Although despite how he's stated to be useable as a Dark Angels commander, he's always been only in the Chaos Marine section of the site and not in the Dark Angels army list section.
There's nobody who will say "You cannot use the Cypher model to represent a Dark Angels Commander with a Combi-Plasma and Power Sword".
The model is pretty perfect for it, and since counts-as does not mean that "I'm going to use Cypher and his rules as a stand-in Dark Angels Commander" it's a pretty acceptable thing.
What I do not like however is how much of a blatant money grab this is. If the dataslates were reasliss around March/April time onwards I wouldn't care, but it's the fact that pne is being realised the same month as the codex, essentially saying the codex sucks and we know it does, buy our dataslates and you might be able to do well!
If the rumours about the designers running out of time with the codex are true, it is possible that this is their way to patch it instead of it being a mere money grab. It remains to be seen with the next codex release whether this is actually a new, planned strategy, or merely a one time panic move to fix a broken codex.
If it were a "patch" instead of "DLC" it'd be published in White Dwarf (of whatever format) as well as published on the website for free.
To the horror of the planetary governor of Satys, a Tyranid hive fleet has cut the planet off from Warp communication, and its creatures are infiltrating the furthest reaches of the planet. The irradiated jungles are being stalked by Lictors, while Genestealers are starting to infest the manufactorums. It is up to the planet’s two Catachan regiments as well as a small strike force of the Aurora Chapter to lead the planet’s defence. But the Hive Mind rapidly responds to the defenders’ tactics, and soon begins to overwhelm the Imperial forces...
About this Book:
Leviathan Rising is the first book in a trilogy of Tyranid Dataslates, each of which details the different stages of Hive Fleet Leviathan’s assault upon the planet of Satys. This first installment showcases the vanguard organisms of the Tyranid fleet. It contains formations, missions and rules so that you can re-create the hideous invasion techniques of Hive Fleet Leviathan in your games of Warhammer 40,000.
So here are two of the new formations:
It looks like they used two different formats to screw with the page counts. As of right now though, $14.99 for 91 or 113 pages...assuming the page counts are accurate.
Also this "dlc created at the same time as the game" is a myth. If you follow Paradox games you'll know that DLC is created *after* the devs have finished the product and it's in the production/marketing eather. In 40k terms, the game developers start working on data slates after the codex has been written, while it is being printed/edited etc.
Taking one example from one company in the videogame industry and then pretending that it applies across the board to videogaming, and then extrapolating it as a "fact" that it also applies to the way that GW works is rather disingenuous. It's also completely wrong.
I guess using your rather feeble logic, this "proves" that all DLC is created at the same time as the main game, and by extension that the 40k DLC is also created at the same time as the codices.
1. Belakor was never part of the Chaos Codex - never even part of 40KIIRC - so of course there was no demand or outcry for him when the Chaos Codex came out. No one ever expected to get him.
2. As mentioned earlier, Cypher hasn't had in-print rules since the first 3rd Ed Chaos Codex. That's 1999. Before that he was only in the 2nd Ed Chaos Codex. He's never been in a Dark Angel Codex. So the idea that Dark Angel players would be demanding him in their Codex is a little odd.
These DLC dataslate thingies, just like the bigger Supplements, belong in their parent Codices. There's no need (beyond greed) to release these as separate (overpriced) PDF releases. Write all the fluff you want, but when there's a book as large as the Codex that only has 3 pages of actual rules, I'd rather you just put those 3 pages in the damned Codex to begin with.
To the horror of the planetary governor of Satys, a Tyranid hive fleet has cut the planet off from Warp communication, and its creatures are infiltrating the furthest reaches of the planet. The irradiated jungles are being stalked by Lictors, while Genestealers are starting to infest the manufactorums. It is up to the planet’s two Catachan regiments as well as a small strike force of the Aurora Chapter to lead the planet’s defence. But the Hive Mind rapidly responds to the defenders’ tactics, and soon begins to overwhelm the Imperial forces...
About this Book:
Leviathan Rising is the first book in a trilogy of Tyranid Dataslates, each of which details the different stages of Hive Fleet Leviathan’s assault upon the planet of Satys. This first installment showcases the vanguard organisms of the Tyranid fleet. It contains formations, missions and rules so that you can re-create the hideous invasion techniques of Hive Fleet Leviathan in your games of Warhammer 40,000.
So here are two of the new formations:
It looks like they used two different formats to screw with the page counts. As of right now though, $14.99 for 91 or 113 pages...assuming the page counts are accurate.
Thanks, Kanluwen. Looks like an easy skip for me, though. Formations in Dataslates are one of GW's worst ideas for rules...
The Farsight Enclaves is the gold standard for digital releases, imo.
Granted, its gameplay mechanics didn't help the meta at all- made it worse in fact- but the amount of actual content in the book is very decent. 100+ pages of fluff, with numerous short-stories and blurbs that flesh out the Tau, good artwork, and some solid (if not overpowered) game mechanics to supplement the army.
Not every release can have that much content if GW really wants to have a weekly release schedule, but one can dream that every army would get at least one digital release that match's the FE's value.
Instead, some get stuck with half-assed 10 page "data-slates"... ah well.
bodazoka wrote: 91 - 113 pages!! surely that discounts some of the neg?
To a point. If it's 91 pages of fluff and then 3 pages of rules, I'd rather have the 3 pages of rules in the damn Codex and if I want the fluff later I'll get it.
With this being released in the same month as the Codex, it seems much more like content that was removed from the codex in order to sell as DLC.
Ah, this old chestnut. Gets discussed in video gaming circles a lot. The short version of that debate is that it's just as likely that the book has been finished for a long time and this is more stuff they thought up since they finished it than that they deliberately hamstrung a flagship product so they could parcel up the removed content as extra premium micro-content. You aren't likely to find out the truth of it and either scenario is equally plausible.
bodazoka wrote: so its more like a mini imperial armour detailing probably the most well known Tyranid invasions?
91 - 113 pages!! surely that discounts some of the neg?
I pre ordered cant wait!!
113 tiny little e-reader pages. I bought the digital Tyranid codex because it was cheap... that was a bit of a mistake. The formatting is terrible. But yeah, the digital codex is 368 pages compared to the printed codex which is 104.
So 91-113 pages is more like 26 to 32 pages. And I assume a lot of those pages are copy/paste of previous materials and pictures freely available online.
The thing is, if it's like the other dataslates then it's stuff that hasn't previously been in codices (not as in units/characters, but as in codices have never had formations or similar in them), so it would have been weird if they were in the codex in the first place.
With this being released in the same month as the Codex, it seems much more like content that was removed from the codex in order to sell as DLC.
Ah, this old chestnut. Gets discussed in video gaming circles a lot. The short version of that debate is that it's just as likely that the book has been finished for a long time and this is more stuff they thought up since they finished it than that they deliberately hamstrung a flagship product so they could parcel up the removed content as extra premium micro-content. You aren't likely to find out the truth of it and either scenario is equally plausible.
I think based on past experience with GW, most people are going to assume either malice or incompetence rather than them being thoughtful by coming up with extra content above and beyond the codex. With the way GW roll these days, I'm really not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt so much anymore.
I wouldn't call it "thoughtful" or "above and beyond the codex" given that they're charging for it, but otherwise, yeah, I do understand the negativity.
With this being released in the same month as the Codex, it seems much more like content that was removed from the codex in order to sell as DLC.
Ah, this old chestnut. Gets discussed in video gaming circles a lot. The short version of that debate is that it's just as likely that the book has been finished for a long time and this is more stuff they thought up since they finished it than that they deliberately hamstrung a flagship product so they could parcel up the removed content as extra premium micro-content. You aren't likely to find out the truth of it and either scenario is equally plausible.
Well, the rumors are that certain units that were in the 5E codex but not in the 6th edition codex (like Ymgarl genestealers) will be making an appearence in at least one of the dataslates.
If those rumors are true (and, to be fair, there is every chance they may not be), then there's no way your theory holds up. GW couldn't have just "not thought" to put the Doom, or spores, or Ymgarls or the Parasite into the new 'dex... because they already exist. The only possible reason for them to not be in the 6E Tyranids is because GW made a conscious decision to not include them.
Regarding video games, there's nothing to debate really. It's not a "myth" that publishers go into completed games and cherry-pick content to be taken out and sold later as DLC. The practice has been straight-up confirmed in articles and interviews by not just developers, but even the publishers themselves. It is a very real thing.
Yeah, some publishers do it, for sure, I didn't mean to suggest that they don't, but that doesn't mean that they all do. So "there's nothing to debate" is totally wrong.
You're probably right when you talk about it in terms of those specifics, things that were removed from the 5E codex that are rumoured to be coming back as dataslates. I'm not a nid player so I don't know the details. It's very sad if true. But "given that it's been released in the same month, it's more likely they took stuff out of the book to sell later" was the line I didn't like, and still don't.
airmang wrote: The lictors have preferred enemy (characters and independent characters).
Wait, just in the Dataslate? Is this a guess or did I miss something?
And that's why most events won't allow Dataslates... keeping track of what units were included that way, and thus have Tank Hunter / Preferred Enemy / etc, would simply be a nightmare from a rules perspective.
Update from their digital page:
Argos Rex As a proud owner of the new tyranid dex (one of the few, apparently) I have to ask; Will i somehow be able to include multiple dataslates in my list, since we get no allies?
Like · Reply · 2 · 13 minutes ago
Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hey Argos,
You sure will, and by the time the third Dataslate comes out, Tyranids will have more datasheet formations to choose from than all other armies combined!
Bull0 wrote: It's conditionally true. Do I need to repeat that bit
You doubtless will!
Personally, I'm only 50 per cent cynical about GW, so I was fairly relaxed about the dataslates; I doubt this specific release will be a massive profits centre for them, what they're doing is using us as a kind of testbed for launching dataslates in parallel with codexes, something that will give more choice and customisation - and in time, as the market gets bigger, definitely make them lots more £££. However, when I saw the price - £8.99 for the eBook, so I guess £9.99 for the iBooks version, I became 75% cynical. This is definitely the time to start looking out discount iTunes vouchers.
This is exactly a Kirby/ Upper Management thing to do.
Drop the thing that everyone likes from the main dex, have them pay extra to use it again through DLC.
Dito. This is a good move for the company. Sucks for us customers especially Nids, Orks, IG, DE, SW, BA, GK etc)
This is the thing: People need to realize that releasing this DLC that may be necessary for the army to function/be playable is nothing more than a functional increase in the price of the army book/codex. It is disguised as "DLC", but in essence it's just a price increase for content that, in previous editions, would have been available in the main codex.
People may respond (along with GW) that players are getting "enhanced experience" by purchasing DLC, and that might be true if people are getting additional units above and beyond what they would have gotten in previous editions if they bought the stand-alone codex. However (I am not a nid player, so take this with a grain of salt), it seems like GW purposefully removed content that in previous editions was available (important to note, as people would have models for those units standing around doing nothing), as well as kind of neutering the power of existing units in the new codex such that if nid players want a reasonably competitive army, they will need to buy the DLC. So, for the same price as previous edition army codexes, players get a reduced experience that can be put up to par with previous editions through the purchase of DLC.
In essence, it's just a price increase of the codex, so people should look at it like that. People's objections to the DLC seem to be that it's a "Sneaky" way to increase the price for a product that have bought in the past. And it is. But fundamentally this is just a price increase.
BallinWitStalin wrote: This is the thing: People need to realize that releasing this DLC that may be necessary for the army to function/be playable is nothing more than a functional increase in the price of the army book/codex. It is disguised as "DLC", but in essence it's just a price increase for content that, in previous editions, would have been available in the main codex.
The army is playable. Right now it is nothing more than assumption that this is cut material and/or that it will make the Tyranids more powerful.
ChainswordHeretic wrote: Is there any way to view these data slates with a computer? I don't have an e-reader, and an I-pod is the only I-anything I own.
You can buy the .mobi version and read it with Kindle's eReader program (which is free). One warning, having compared the two? The non iPad version of these books gets about 10 seconds of attention. I say this as a non i-anything owner. I could make a better looking set of files in paint or HTML 2.0.
ChainswordHeretic wrote: Is there any way to view these data slates with a computer? I don't have an e-reader, and an I-pod is the only I-anything I own.
You can buy the .mobi version and read it with Kindle's eReader program (which is free). One warning, having compared the two? The non iPad version of these books gets about 10 seconds of attention. I say this as a non i-anything owner. I could make a better looking set of files in paint or HTML 2.0.
There's also a free epud reader that firefox has. And I agree, the non-apple versions are pathetic.
airmang wrote: The lictors have preferred enemy (characters and independent characters).
Wait, just in the Dataslate? Is this a guess or did I miss something?
And that's why most events won't allow Dataslates... keeping track of what units were included that way, and thus have Tank Hunter / Preferred Enemy / etc, would simply be a nightmare from a rules perspective.
You can see it as one of the rules on the iBooks version. They also have an "paranoia and ill-disciplined" rule.
In case any'a y'all were having great problems defeating the excellent and game-breakingly powerful new Tyranid Codex, GW just put up some handy suggestions on how to further punish the game's current best army.
I don't think a picture and a paragraph constitutes a 'page' really. If you're thinking of it in proper pages as a book (such as a codex), it's more like 30. Regardless, this is something that should have really been part of a larger supplement or the codex itself, in my humble opinion.
H.B.M.C. wrote: In case any'a y'all were having great problems defeating the excellent and game-breakingly powerful new Tyranid Codex, GW just put up some handy suggestions on how to further punish the game's current best army.
What about an assault cannon/heavy flamer dreadnought?
H.B.M.C. wrote: In case any'a y'all were having great problems defeating the excellent and game-breakingly powerful new Tyranid Codex, GW just put up some handy suggestions on how to further punish the game's current best army.
LMFAO! So basically models in other armies are capable of killing Tyranids. I would've never thought of that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: In case any'a y'all were having great problems defeating the excellent and game-breakingly powerful new Tyranid Codex, GW just put up some handy suggestions on how to further punish the game's current best army.
I may be mis-reading again, but this sort of thing does happen with every release right?
Wow... it's like they are openly mocking the players who purchased the steaming pile that is codex tyranids. Not only are did we knock you out we dropped a big dookie on your chest while you were unconscious.
If your opponent is playing one of most subpar armies here's a handy dandy check list of items to make sure you know how to rub in your opponents face just how badly they suck.
Where's the page of items dedicated to effective killing of TauDar units? Oh wait there isn't one.
paulson games wrote: Wow... it's like they are openly mocking the players who purchased the steaming pile that is codex tyranids. Not only are did we knock you out we dropped a big dookie on your chest while you were unconscious.
If your opponent is playing one of most subpar armies here's a handy dandy check list of items to make sure you know how to rub in your opponents face just how badly they suck.
Where's the page of items dedicated to effective killing of TauDar units? Oh wait there isn't one.
edit: Is it April 1st?
What a grumpy bunch, really!
Nids certainly aren't underpowered against space mareenz. We tabled them yesterday, including their new anti-flyer things, tentaclided into oblivion - and the Crone survived the entire encounter.
It's a shame the upcoming dataslate probably forces you to field five units in order to get any buffs for genestealers, so that might be a disappointment. But I am starting to think, when the dust settles, while there are lots of really annoying nerfs, 'Nids are still a fun army. We're kinda enjoying the shakeup.
bodazoka wrote: so its more like a mini imperial armour detailing probably the most well known Tyranid invasions?
91 - 113 pages!! surely that discounts some of the neg?
I pre ordered cant wait!!
113 tiny little e-reader pages. I bought the digital Tyranid codex because it was cheap... that was a bit of a mistake. The formatting is terrible. But yeah, the digital codex is 368 pages compared to the printed codex which is 104.
So 91-113 pages is more like 26 to 32 pages. And I assume a lot of those pages are copy/paste of previous materials and pictures freely available online.
I firmly believe that GW will continue to release bland, watered down codexes to drive the sales of supplements, data slates and now White Dwarf Weekly.
Their model kit prices and barrier of entry are killing them so they're finding ways to increase sales through micro-transactions (i.e. Data slates, WD weekly, various digital products, etc.) and add-ons (i.e. supplements).
I firmly believe that GW will continue to release bland, watered down codexes to drive the sales of supplements, data slates and now White Dwarf Weekly.
Their model kit prices and barrier of entry are killing them so they're finding ways to increase sales through micro-transactions (i.e. Data slates, WD weekly, various digital products, etc.) and add-ons (i.e. supplements).
The sad part is that this seems to be true. I could certainly see that conversation going on at GWHQ... sales are down, what do we do to fix it? Introduce micro-transactions of course! That should help increase revenue without actually addressing the reasons for sales being down.
I'm starting to think that GW is run by a bunch of genies.
In 5th edition, lots of us (myself included) wanted to have a bit more regular releases so that one wouldn't be stuck waiting for a new Codex for a decade. The suggestion was adding units to old Codices so that there was always something interesting to do with the army.
In 5th edition, lots of us (myself included) wanted to have a bit more regular releases so that one wouldn't be stuck waiting for a new Codex for a decade. The suggestion was adding units to old Codices so that there was always something interesting to do with the army.
Well, GW seems to have listened...
Reference to wishes in D&D where you get your wish, but in a bad way? So in this case you got your wish, with regular releases, only they come in the form of DLC and the actual book is made weaker to force you to buy the DLC?
In 5th edition, lots of us (myself included) wanted to have a bit more regular releases so that one wouldn't be stuck waiting for a new Codex for a decade. The suggestion was adding units to old Codices so that there was always something interesting to do with the army.
Well, GW seems to have listened...
Reference to wishes in D&D where you get your wish, but in a bad way? So in this case you got your wish, with regular releases, only they come in the form of DLC and the actual book is made weaker to force you to buy the DLC?
Do we know if there is any addition to genestealers in this dataslate besides fluff? I'm debating rather or not to spend the cash on it. I don't have any lictors at all. I'm looking for a dormant add on to get ymgarls back in the mix. I had just painted 30 of them before the new nid release =/ If its just lictor upgrades it will have to be a really great set of special rules for me to spend more and paint the models.
From the page previews its appears there will be 2 formations covered by the book. The Lictor/Deathleaper one and a Broodlord/Genestealer one. Though how good they are will depend on the bonuses.
In 5th edition, lots of us (myself included) wanted to have a bit more regular releases so that one wouldn't be stuck waiting for a new Codex for a decade. The suggestion was adding units to old Codices so that there was always something interesting to do with the army.
Well, GW seems to have listened...
Reference to wishes in D&D where you get your wish, but in a bad way? So in this case you got your wish, with regular releases, only they come in the form of DLC and the actual book is made weaker to force you to buy the DLC?
Genies tend to twist your wish around.
Just because the dataslate is out doesn't mean you have to use it.
Nids certainly aren't underpowered against space mareenz. We tabled them yesterday, including their new anti-flyer things, tentaclided into oblivion - and the Crone survived the entire encounter.
That all depends on the quality of your opponent.
I could fight my room mate's marine army, who's never played a game of 40k, and then trumpet about how my sub par army is better than marines and how everyone is wrong about it.
GW doing what is basically same-day DLC comes as no surprise. The wave of the future. My guess is they heard about what Same day DLC was with EA and got inspired.
Melcavuk wrote: From the page previews its appears there will be 2 formations covered by the book. The Lictor/Deathleaper one and a Broodlord/Genestealer one. Though how good they are will depend on the bonuses.
The preview mentions it contains 5 formations, 2 missions and rules.
I havn't been keeping up with dataslates for other armies so much. Can you normally only take 1 Formation? Theres a post on Digital Editions mentioning Tyranids ability to take more than 1.
1# As a proud owner of the new tyranid dex (one of the few, apparently) I have to ask; Will i somehow be able to include multiple dataslates in my list, since we get no allies?
Like · Reply · 6 · 18 January at 15:29
Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hey #,
You sure will, and by the time the third Dataslate comes out, Tyranids will have more datasheet formations to choose from than all other armies combined!
Good catch. Unless the word 'bomb' is misaligned, there should be something between 'bio' and 'bomb' though.
Nem wrote:I havn't been keeping up with dataslates for other armies so much. Can you normally only take 1 Formation? Theres a post on Digital Editions mentioning Tyranids ability to take more than 1.
Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army, and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units make it up.
the shrouded lord wrote:So with data slates, can you buy them instore?
If you have a mobile phone or tablet with internet connection, sure.
Melcavuk wrote: From the page previews its appears there will be 2 formations covered by the book. The Lictor/Deathleaper one and a Broodlord/Genestealer one. Though how good they are will depend on the bonuses.
The preview mentions it contains 5 formations, 2 missions and rules.
So it does, the higher price than the other dataslates isnt so unreasonable then.
Bit of an odd one but when I try to preorder the dataslate Black Library is charging me 4.50 delivery for a digital edition. I'm right in thinking this shouldnt happen right?
So it does, the higher price than the other dataslates isnt so unreasonable then.
That really depends if these things should have been in the basic codex to begin with.
The marine codex was over 160 pages, and the Tyranid one was a little over 100. They are more than capable to adding more content if they wanted to instead of gouging players.
But then again, the trend of getting less and less for your money seems to be going strong.
H.B.M.C. wrote: In case any'a y'all were having great problems defeating the excellent and game-breakingly powerful new Tyranid Codex, GW just put up some handy suggestions on how to further punish the game's current best army.
This include some Sisters of Battle ? Someone at GW still remembered Sisters of Battle existed, and decided to actually advertise them !
I'm right now.
In 5th edition, lots of us (myself included) wanted to have a bit more regular releases so that one wouldn't be stuck waiting for a new Codex for a decade. The suggestion was adding units to old Codices so that there was always something interesting to do with the army.
Well, GW seems to have listened...
You need to word you wishes better Sir/Madam! You've screwed us all!
I just want the genestealer DS to be usable. I don't want to paint 150 gaunts.
So whats the point of deathleaper getting a page in there? We just got his updated stat profile, are they putting in a whole page just to add a couple extra rules to him and a brood of lictors?
Rotary wrote: So whats the point of deathleaper getting a page in there? We just got his updated stat profile, are they putting in a whole page just to add a couple extra rules to him and a brood of lictors?
So far all the data slates and formations have been including all the rules for the models they contain, cause they could be taken as long as you could ally with the main dex. This way you didn't have to have the whole additional codex. I'm sure they're just doing it for completeness sake, since the Nids (currently) can't ally with anyone else.
Interestingly, the wording og the Tyrannic War Veterans dataslate says it can be taken when facing a force that contains Tyranid models. Take that as you will.
UltraPrime wrote: Interestingly, the wording og the Tyrannic War Veterans dataslate says it can be taken when facing a force that contains Tyranid models. Take that as you will.
Wait, so my 'nids could take Tyrannic War Veterans if I'm playing against 'nids? (who could in turn take Tyrannic War Veterans...?)
Not sure where you got that idea? The only thing I can see that is saying anything close to that is their Avenge the Fallen 1st special rule, which only works if the opponent is Tyranids.
Anyway, this looks interesting. Still no nid expert but can a nid expert tell me if this casts any light on the rumours that this is all content cut from 5E codex nids?
Anyway, this looks interesting. Still no nid expert but can a nid expert tell me if this casts any light on the rumours that this is all content cut from 5E codex nids?
Unfortunately there is no way to tell. The best we can hope for from 5th in this dataslate is Ymgarls, although I imagine they will have their move+assault omitted. I mean, it's possible they'll make it crazily overpowered and give the GSHunting Packs the ability to assault from their infil positions or something, but I doubt it. To be honest, lictors/dleaper/GS were hardly used, so there's really not a lot to expect; however, if the DSlate makes GS+BL groups cheaper and more sturdy (shrouded on turn they come in? who knows), I might consider them a strong contender for a troopFOC in standard lists.
The one thing I was worried about was having to take additional FoC slots (i.e. troops, HQ) if I use one of these slates (i.e. I'd like for the genestealers to be my require troop choice). It sounds like that will be possible with these three.
airmang wrote: These formations don't use up a FOC slot. They are basically an allied detachment that doesn't use up your normal allies detachment allowance.
How do you know? Was this in the link and I must have just missed it
airmang wrote: These formations don't use up a FOC slot. They are basically an allied detachment that doesn't use up your normal allies detachment allowance.
How do you know? Was this in the link and I must have just missed it
airmang wrote: These formations don't use up a FOC slot. They are basically an allied detachment that doesn't use up your normal allies detachment allowance.
How do you know? Was this in the link and I must have just missed it
Because that's how all formations have worked thus far. They cost points, but no FOC slots.
airmang wrote: These formations don't use up a FOC slot. They are basically an allied detachment that doesn't use up your normal allies detachment allowance.
How do you know? Was this in the link and I must have just missed it
It's a standard rule for Dataslates.
For Formations yes, but Dataslates can also contain rules for new units regular FOC slots, like the Tyrannic War Veterans or Be'Lakor.
airmang wrote: These formations don't use up a FOC slot. They are basically an allied detachment that doesn't use up your normal allies detachment allowance.
How do you know? Was this in the link and I must have just missed it
Because that's how all formations have worked thus far. They cost points, but no FOC slots.
The next section contains five new Datasheet formations that give you new ways to use your Tyranids collection in games of Warhammer 40,000. These are primarily aimed at allowing you to represent the insidious tactics of Leviathan’s vanguard attacks against Satys. However, you could just as easily use them alongside your standard Tyranids detatchment, or even use them exclusively to create a super-sneaky army of Tyranid stealth specialists (they came out of the trees!).
This tells me that it wont necessarily be like that,
The "they came from the trees!" line has me doubling down on expecting Ymgarls. It sounds like it might be referring to their "Dormant" rule for deployment, plus the fact that one of the missions specifically calls attention to the kind of terrain on the table.
Ymgarls would deploy in an unannounced piece of terrain previously, and essentially "pop out" if something got close.
UltraPrime wrote: Interestingly, the wording og the Tyrannic War Veterans dataslate says it can be taken when facing a force that contains Tyranid models. Take that as you will.
'cause of this and how it's written, I'm scavenging some of my brothers old sternguard he doesn't use, placing adrenal glands over their heads and claiming them as the brain slugs that control people, like the ones from futurama, ergo I had space marines in my tyranid force!
however that can be only when facing other tyranids cause of the word "facing"
UltraPrime wrote: Interestingly, the wording og the Tyrannic War Veterans dataslate says it can be taken when facing a force that contains Tyranid models. Take that as you will.
Redemption wrote: Not sure where you got that idea? The only thing I can see that is saying anything close to that is their Avenge the Fallen 1st special rule, which only works if the opponent is Tyranids.
I'm unable to see anything that says any army facing 'Nids can take the formation. There's just the special rule that kicks in if you're facing 'Nids, as Redemption points out. A shame, as my 1KSons need more fancy bolter rounds to play with .
UltraPrime wrote: Interestingly, the wording og the Tyrannic War Veterans dataslate says it can be taken when facing a force that contains Tyranid models. Take that as you will.
Redemption wrote: Not sure where you got that idea? The only thing I can see that is saying anything close to that is their Avenge the Fallen 1st special rule, which only works if the opponent is Tyranids.
I'm unable to see anything that says any army facing 'Nids can take the formation. There's just the special rule that kicks in if you're facing 'Nids, as Redemption points out. A shame, as my 1KSons need more fancy bolter rounds to play with .
Sorry, my wording was paraphrasing, and I seem to have given the wrong impression. I didn't mean to imply that you can only use the formation when fighting 'Nids. The point I tried, but failed, to make was that it states "...if the enemy army includes one or more models from Codex: Tyranids.", implying that an enemy army will have the option to include 'Nids.
Personally I'd hold off buying these until all three are released as they are bound to release them as a bundle, I'm not certain that they'll discount the bundle though.
Tyran wrote: It makes enemy units use their lowest LD instead of the highest one.
That is a really nice idea for a rule. Simple and makes immediate sense.
And the actual verbiage is lifted straight out of deathleapers fluff...where it talks about soldiers jumping at mere sounds and no longer shooting disciplined volleys...I am getting myself one more lictor..I have five.
There is nothing to say there won't be rules for Genestealer cults when the new IG codex is dropped, be it via dataslate or in WD weekly. In fact, if it was in WD weekly, then it would be a huge boost for a product some people are unsure of, and Cult army rules are still very popular wistlisted items....
Just saw this posted on The Tyranid Hive, didnt see it here...so I figured I would copy / paste
Its available now, and It is pretty good if you like lictors and stealers.
Manufactorum Genestealers
The formations allow your genestealers to set up in ruins or unoccupied building within 6" of your enemy, and have hit and run
5 Stealer broods, but may not include additional stealers
Lictor Forest Brood
Lictor Forest brood formation inside forests can infiltrate up to 6" from the enemy, and have the shrouded rule in forest.
This is 5 broods of a single model.
Deathleaper's Assassin Brood
The Deathleaper brood makes anyone within 12" of a model from the brood have -1 LD - this could be pretty massive combined with a few other rules (shadows, Its after me, the horror, Psychic Shriek ect..)
Deathleaper + 5 lictor broods of 1 model
Broodlord's Hunting Pack
Another Broodlord hunting pack formation when it comes from reserves can deploy into any unoccupied building. It can also be deployed in any ruin terrain during setup as long as its 6" away from the enemy.
They also have hunting pack, which when deployed, your formation has preferred enemy against any nominated enemy unit.
3 Stealer broods and 1 must have a brood lord. only a single broodlord allowed.
Gargoyle Bio-Bombs
The gargoyle bomb is 3 units of gargoyles and 3 units of spore mines, and allows the spore mines when ever they start a move action (move, run , charge) within 6" of a gargoyle to move at 6", or no longer half the distance when running or charging.
Overall, there are some decent options to close the gaps and have some threats for your opponent on turn 1. Having all single units of lictors can help to keep them alive, or at least take a lot of firepower to remove them all. Nothing stupidly powerful, although I like the idea of hit and run stealers!
The Dataslate sadly does not present any way around the standard prevention of assault from deepstrike or infiltrate. It does however provide a nice way of taking 3 crone, 3 gargoyle broods and 3 spore mine squads within a single force organisation chart if thats what you're into. Or an obscene amount of stealers/lictors.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I thought this dataslate would make taking Genestealers and Lictors viable.
I was wrong.
Yeah I never held out much hope. I just hope one of them has the spore and/or doom. The next one looks like it's to do with warriors, so no doubt they'll get our hopes up, make us think warriors are going to suddenly become good, then dissappoint.
Actually, Deathleaper's Assassin thingy is viable I think. Take a list with 3 Mawlocs, two flyrants a tervigon, some gaunts and whatever else (at say 1500-1850pts), and then you can use the -1Ld from the formation, plus perhaps Shadow, and then at least a few of your psykers will be able to cast the Horror or Psychic Shriek with a very good chance of success (OP noticed this), AND you'll have lictors floating around the board to guide your Mawlocs. Get a cheap unit of stealers in there with a Broodlord (since he always knows the Horror) and I think this could work.
Rotary wrote: I wasn't holding out much hope to be honest, they seem to have not put much effort into the codex or its supplements.
I'm not sure about that. Farsight rules were excellent, Iyanden is very underrated with what it does IMO, and the Iron Arms one makes some very powerful builds. Imperial Fists one was average.
Its really only the Black Legion one that really sucked (but then its for CSM so we should have expected that).
Rotary wrote: I wasn't holding out much hope to be honest, they seem to have not put much effort into the codex or its supplements.
I'm not sure about that. Farsight rules were excellent, Iyanden is very underrated with what it does IMO, and the Iron Arms one makes some very powerful builds. Imperial Fists one was average.
Its really only the Black Legion one that really sucked (but then its for CSM so we should have expected that).
Not what I was looking for and not exactly effective for plugging the holes of the sub-par codex.
As a nid player, this is a swing and a miss. So far GW has done nothing to earn my consumer dollars, and I haven't spent a dime. Maybe they can get it right on the next dataslate.
Unsuspected: Models from this Formation that are deployed within a Building or Ruins using the Infiltrate special rule can be set up within 6" of an enemy model.
You can literally deploy 25 (Or 50, if you take 2) Genestealers directly ontop of your opponent.... Plus you get free HNR.
Unsuspected: Models from this Formation that are deployed within a Building or Ruins using the Infiltrate special rule can be set up within 6" of an enemy model.
You can literally deploy 25 (Or 50, if you take 2) Genestealers directly ontop of your opponent.... Plus you get free HNR.
that also counts on your enemy having enough buildings or ruins within 6" of their units to fit 25 models to be that effective. as soon as your opponent learns to avoid terrain, the formation loses its benefit
TyCorny wrote: that also counts on your enemy having enough buildings or ruins within 6" of their units to fit 25 models to be that effective. as soon as your opponent learns to avoid terrain, the formation loses its benefit
You can easily fit 25 stealers into most area terrain.
Having run 30 Ymgarls for a significant period of time, I know this from experience.
This has a massive effect on deployment, and you don't just lose these Genestealers. You still have 25 hit and run genestealers.
TyCorny wrote: that also counts on your enemy having enough buildings or ruins within 6" of their units to fit 25 models to be that effective. as soon as your opponent learns to avoid terrain, the formation loses its benefit
You can easily fit 25 stealers into most area terrain.
Having run 30 Ymgarls for a significant period of time, I know this from experience.
This has a massive effect on deployment, and you don't just lose these Genestealers. You still have 25 hit and run genestealers.
I blame the squats for ruining the nids dex. The Dwarf army book needed a proper rewrite, thus GW did not put as much time into nids, which did not need as many changes.
At least we cannot accuse GW of being money grubbing by taking essential parts of the codex and putting it in the dataslate.
The truth of the matter is that they stopped putting authors on the dexs because they are written by a crack team of typing monkeys.
Buy NEW BEHEMOTH DATASLATE! with the ALL NEW BEHEMOTH DATASLATE, instinctive behaviour is in effect even when you ARE in range, every unit now has the feed instinctive behaviour! Oh and most importantly, cannibalistic hunger now comes into effect on a 5- meaning that your carnifexes will eat themselves before those pesky tau can shoot them! Buy the ALL NEW BEHEMOTH DATASLATE today!
Warning
Side effects may include:
Rage.
Losing.
Rage.
Head aches.
Losing.
Rage.
Rage.
Explosive urination.
Apparently there is a ad for the second part at the end of the ebook edition. i got the interactive which has nothing at the end . can anyone post or describe. I'm hoping for some big bug love.
It's a triology, each representing a phase in the invasion. As Monstrous Creatures are usually in the last phase, expect the next one to be about stuff like Warriors, Shrikes, Gaunts, Zoanthropes, etc.
The preview at the end of the first part shows the cover image, which is a Warrior.
So if you deploy in cover near the enmy you can assault 2nd turn after a full round of being fired at then attack last as you moved through cover, and if you want you can hit and run so you can move to I1 again and get snap shot at again. I don't see how this really helps.
Lots of negative modifiers for leadership from these datasheets and i'm surprised everyone is so negative. Brood lords have the horror (-2 ld). Zoanthropes might roll the same power.. Under certain circumstances, you could have all these negatives & force them to take it on their lowest ld. Run some winged tyrants and get Psychic Scream.. Unless your army is mechanized or fearless, i could see this actually working honestly.
haroon wrote: So if you deploy in cover near the enemy you can assault 2nd turn after a full round of being fired at then attack last as you moved through cover, and if you want you can hit and run so you can move to I1 again and get snap shot at again. I don't see how this really helps.
You're being WAY too pessimistic.
How is Hit and Run a BAD thing? Just assault a unit not in cover. Or just assault a vehicle. Or spend 50 points and give the whole formation frag grenades. Is it that hard? Go to ground for a 2++ save in that ruin you snuck into.
dereksatkinson wrote: Under certain circumstances, you could have all these negatives & force them to take it on their lowest ld. Run some winged tyrants and get Psychic Scream.. Unless your army is mechanized or fearless, i could see this actually working honestly.
Basing tactics around a MAYBE is a really bad idea.
Instead they should have given the options for frag grenades. Considering that everything else in the universe has them, it's really insulting that they don't.
In the grim future, all assassins and infiltrators step into the open with a loud "TADAAAA" and wait patiently, until everyone willing had a good shot at them ... and another one .... and another one
The Deathleaper one would have been so much better if it was Deathleaper + 0-5 Lictors instead of a flat 5. With Dual Flyrants a must have it would have been nice to have a way to get him with out paying a 250 point Lictor tax or dropping one of the Flyrants.
Kroothawk wrote: In the grim future, all assassins and infiltrators step into the open with a loud "TADAAAA" and wait patiently, until everyone willing had a good shot at them ... and another one .... and another one
You must play a very strange way.
It is not a game-changer, but being able to infiltrate within 6 inches is a significant buff.
Kroothawk wrote: In the grim future, all assassins and infiltrators step into the open with a loud "TADAAAA" and wait patiently, until everyone willing had a good shot at them ... and another one .... and another one
You must play a very strange way.
It is not a game-changer, but being able to infiltrate within 6 inches is a significant buff.
gigasnail wrote: it'd be a buff if you could assault first turn, or have a way to survive the turn of shooting you're going to have to endure if you go second.
it does neither of those things.
Agreed, it ain't exactly a transformation. But we have a lot of buildings in our regular store, so we'll give the Broodlord Hunting Pack a try, to enter from reserves straight into a building might have potential, and we've missed our Broodlord.
GW Digital just posted the following response about the next slate. February, apparently.
Q: "The hive mind hungers. Will our warriors be wrecking face? Will our carnifexes be creating carnage? Will our gargoyles be guzzling imperial innards? Will our raveners still be collecting state benefits? In other words, what's the word on the next nid dataslate, Eddie?
A: "You won't be waiting to long, it will be on it's way in February. Keep an eye on White Dwarf and our website for news on exact dates. - Eddie
Being unable to assault "on the move" - be it from transports, deep-striking, arriving from reserves or any similar limitations makes the whole option pretty moot to me. These are shock troops, ffs. Where's the shock element when even the slowpoke with the ammo crates for the HB had time to drop his stuff and take a well-aimed shot at whatever appeared - and then a second one in overwatch!?
Zande4 wrote: The Deathleaper one would have been so much better if it was Deathleaper + 0-5 Lictors instead of a flat 5. With Dual Flyrants a must have it would have been nice to have a way to get him with out paying a 250 point Lictor tax or dropping one of the Flyrants.
Can you take this as an allied force? retain your dual flyrants and take deathleaper as addition?
Zande4 wrote: The Deathleaper one would have been so much better if it was Deathleaper + 0-5 Lictors instead of a flat 5. With Dual Flyrants a must have it would have been nice to have a way to get him with out paying a 250 point Lictor tax or dropping one of the Flyrants.
Can you take this as an allied force? retain your dual flyrants and take deathleaper as addition?
That is indeed the main benefit, that you're not using up an HQ slot. But as Meangreenstompa points out, you have to pay a hefty Lictor Tax to do so.
Key line:
" Expect unending tides of 'gaunts led forward by more intelligent and formidable Synapse Creatures."
So... there's gonna be a endless swarm option for termagants? More intelligent synapse creatures means that all Warriors get Preferred enemy? More formidable means all creatures in Synapse get Eternal Warrior?
You see? We can't stop ourselves, can we? It's the human urge, to tell oursevles that things will turn out ok, even tho' reality is that it won't. Just like how we watch terrible movies to the end, hoping despite all the evidence that somehow it will improve.
You'll see some formations, which are likely the basis for several of the Dataslate options.
Teh Carnifex Crushers look fairly basic, if shy on the Dakka ... they're that Tactical style as good at range as melee.
Endless Swarm is simple: 36 'gants, 36 'gaunts. 318 points if you did it on your own, but I'd imagine that there'll e some kind of "Come back when they're dead" thing. I *hope* that the replacements will have Deep Strike, because having Termagants come into your backfield during turn 5? Not really so helpful.
Living Fortress is another basic one. No idea what the trick will be, but it's good to see Tyrants that leg it instead of fly.
They're going to have to do better than that, however. (Wonder if any will have Pyrovores in 'em? I'd imagine not, but hey.)
If I was a betting man, I bet this ends up being in the third dataslate. If so, we could be looking at quad hive tyrants in games of less than 2000 points.
dereksatkinson wrote:Lots of negative modifiers for leadership from these datasheets and i'm surprised everyone is so negative. Brood lords have the horror (-2 ld). Zoanthropes might roll the same power.. Under certain circumstances, you could have all these negatives & force them to take it on their lowest ld. Run some winged tyrants and get Psychic Scream.. Unless your army is mechanized or fearless, i could see this actually working honestly.
I played a game last weekend with some Broodlords, rolled the power on a Flyrant, while also fielding a BS in a squad of Warriors. Enemy units were stuck, pinned, taking only snap-shots all game and/or rolling against a Ld of 5.
It's not a maybe against most armies. It's pretty easy to pull off, actually.
Kroothawk wrote: In the grim future, all assassins and infiltrators step into the open with a loud "TADAAAA" and wait patiently, until everyone willing had a good shot at them ... and another one .... and another one
You must play a very strange way.
It is not a game-changer, but being able to infiltrate within 6 inches is a significant buff.
Sure: for anyone with flame throwers.
Nobody plays flamers, but sure.
gigasnail wrote:it'd be a buff if you could assault first turn, or have a way to survive the turn of shooting you're going to have to endure if you go second.
it does neither of those things.
I've never lost an infiltrating unit to shooting when going second. You'd have to be pretty bad to place a unit in such a position. A well built Tyranid list will also present a lot of threats to force opponents to make decisions. If they go through the trouble of literally moving around to get a shot at an infiltrating unit - likely in cover - good for the rest of my army.
. That's actually too true!
. can anyone post or describe. I'm hoping for some big bug love.
