Just for the record i like Tau the most of all races.

I recently was thinking about the reasons no-one likes Tau and the over-power shenanigans and come to realize that whilst the reasons are numerous they somewhat boil down to one point. Tau are a Sci-fi race in a Sci-fantasy setting.

If you look at them objectively:
They just don't fit in because they have all the inherent advantages of being Sci-fi and none of the drawback the other races have.
They don't have 'magic' (psykers) they use technology to achieve a similar affect.
They don't resort to getting in close (HtH) because that is the last place anyone wants to be in our own reality.
They use advanced suits to help them achieve a battlefield type advantage.
They rely on ranged fire to defeat the enemy and don't care about 'honour' which prevents them giving up anything vital or making more stupid decisions.

This translates really badly onto the tabletop of a game based on medieval fantasy with guns.

Whilst i don't like to blame things for breaking the game per-say i believe Tau to an extent do. It not an intentional thing but because they are a sci-fi designed race they just don't mesh well and end up being overly-powered because they don't have the flaws of a race designed to be fantasy based.

Take Eldar for example, despite the occasional broken-powerful unit, they actually fit into the genre well and are acceptable despite the power-level. Its a good codex and works really well in the setting because they still fit the theme. Yes it's a powerful codex because of a few bits in it and, to an extent, allies, but it's not considered in the same way Tau are because it still adheres to the 'rules' of fantasy.

I don't want it to happen because i like Tau but I'm coming round to the idea (objectively) that removing them from the setting would be better for everyone.
They are quite possibly the single biggest reason that the game doesn't work properly, despite the dodgy rules here and there.

If you look at the types of units in the game and the emphasis the game put on getting into assault (that it exists as a separate phase is a good indication) they're all designed to be balanced around this on some level, whereas Tau aren't designed with that in mind. I'm not trying to say that assault is the main feature of the game, but it is a third of the game in many aspects.

I think if you took Tau out of the picture you might see a distinct shift in the game and notice that many other armies drastically improve. I obviously don't have a means of quantifying this it's just a feeling i have.

What are your thoughts on this?

No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Tau don't have the disadvantages other races do. They have their own. That's called making factions unique.

They don't have any "magic" like effects, so no. Tech is not their psykers anymore than Tech is the "Psyker" of Dark Eldar.

They avoid CC because it's barbaric. Read the fluff. They fight with, what they see, as more honor.

Suits, yes. They do. It's also why they totally lack use in apoc games. Tau believe in avoiding giant fights and redeploying if they were to face such massive resistance. It's called a battle tactic.

Again, their 'Honor' is avoiding barbaric melee, and offering the enemy the chance to surrender before the fight. They still make plenty of stupid choices due to GW playing up their Naive nature.


Comparing to Fantasy, Tau are the Wood Elves. Avoid melee, keep moving, and shoot shoot shoot!

The fact they don't have psykers makes them incredibly vulnerable to opposing psykers as well, so there's that.

First off, I dispute that 'no-one likes Tau.' In fact, most people on dakka have a favorable opinion of them.

Second, I don't think that the bedrock of 40k is the sci-fantasy descriptor, but rather the dystopian descriptor. To that end, Tau are absolutely in the 40k wheelhouse. If anything, the game would be better served by removing Tyranids.

 Jimsolo wrote:
First off, I dispute that 'no-one likes Tau.' In fact, most people on dakka have a favorable opinion of them.

Second, I don't think that the bedrock of 40k is the sci-fantasy descriptor, but rather the dystopian descriptor. To that end, Tau are absolutely in the 40k wheelhouse. If anything, the game would be better served by removing Tyranids.

No.

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

To be fair, Nids don't really fear Str9 ap2 large blasts, they have enough MC(6-10, 4-6 wounds each) so a Tau that only has Riptides as anti MC is in problems. The thing that any Tyranid should fear when facing Tau is that dammed Skyray that can oneshot any of our MC with the exception of the Tyrannofex.

they could miss one = 3

Boniface wrote:
They don't have 'magic' (psykers) they use technology to achieve a similar affect.
They don't resort to getting in close (HtH) because that is the last place anyone wants to be in our own reality.
They rely on ranged fire to defeat the enemy and don't care about 'honour' which prevents them giving up anything vital or making more stupid decisions.

You mean kind of like IG? Tau are just IG with pragmatic use of technology instead of massive swarms of tanks and meatshields.

What are your thoughts on this?

It's complete nonsense. The Tau balance problems pretty much start and end with the Riptide, which is a blatant case of making an overpowered unit (which doesn't even fit the previous fluff) to sell the new $80 kit. Take away the ability to get cross-table pie plates and Tau become a lot more balanced. All of their other units are pretty limited in range, they have lots of shooting within 36" (and even more within 12-18") and JSJ mobility, but their firepower outside 36" is pretty much nonexistent and they struggle to take and hold objectives outside of their own deployment zone. The previous codex had the exact same fundamental concepts, but was a mediocre mono-build codex at best.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

You act like they're guaranteed to hit. First they have to get the nova charge off. Secondly they have to land a large blast with a BS3. I don't think that blast ignores cover, so get in cover. Secondly one large blast isn't going to really scare my T6 TMCs. And if someone has brought 3 Riptides, then i'm assuming the rest of their army is rather poor. Whether its lack of scoring units, lack of support units, whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

To be fair, Nids don't really fear Str9 ap2 large blasts, they have enough MC(6-10, 4-6 wounds each) so a Tau that only has Riptides as anti MC is in problems. The thing that any Tyranid should fear when facing Tau is that dammed Skyray that can oneshot any of our MC with the exception of the Tyrannofex.

Haven't faced a Skyray yet... What does it have that can 1shot a T6 W6 TMC?

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

You act like they're guaranteed to hit. First they have to get the nova charge off. Secondly they have to land a large blast with a BS3. I don't think that blast ignores cover, so get in cover. Secondly one large blast isn't going to really scare my T6 TMCs. And if someone has brought 3 Riptides, then i'm assuming the rest of their army is rather poor. Whether its lack of scoring units, lack of support units, whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

To be fair, Nids don't really fear Str9 ap2 large blasts, they have enough MC(6-10, 4-6 wounds each) so a Tau that only has Riptides as anti MC is in problems. The thing that any Tyranid should fear when facing Tau is that dammed Skyray that can oneshot any of our MC with the exception of the Tyrannofex.

Haven't faced a Skyray yet... What does it have that can 1shot a T6 W6 TMC?

How can you judge and make assumptions on how 3 Riptides means the rest of the Tau army brought will be poorly itemized? LMAO Wow...

Ok no... That BS3 means complete frak all, even if you scatter, the chances of you completely obliterating someone elses troops (Which is really all you need to do with Large Blasts) is completely worth it. The 3+ roll for a Nova Charge is bloody easy as heck to make... and once you're through pretty much removing your opponents ability to score objectives that he doesn't park a Terv on you force him to play (Wait for this) DEFENSIVELY :O

Because as soon as you realize you have to hide in cover, those said Skyrays will have a bloody field day with you. And since the Riptide is an Elite you can still bring 3 Skyrays which all ignore cover with TL-SMS let alone the 6 Seeker Missles that are AP3 and will wound on 2s even on your lovely MCs.

Where is your God when a Tau player doesn't have to try in his attempts to table you?

Cuz I've done it a plethora of times... Which is why I no longer play Tau...

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:


Haven't faced a Skyray yet... What does it have that can 1shot a T6 W6 TMC?

It is a 115 points tank with BS4 6 one-shoot missiles, SMS and 2 markerlights. And Skyfire. Factor markerlights form other units+ the ones already integrated in the tank and this thing can fire 6 bs5+ str8 ap3 shoots that ignore cover.
Yeah it doesn't shoots those missiles again, but that is 115 points that 1 shooted a Tervigon, or a Flyrant, or any other MC that isn't a Tyrannofex.

If it doesn't move it can fire 6 BS5 seeker missiles that are S8 AP3. So yeah, it has to hit with all 6 and wound with all 6, but it could take down your MC in one round of shooting.

However, it now has no more missiles for the rest of the game and only two markerlights.

An SOB exorisist can do the same thing. Only with good rolls it can do it every turn. So its not really something unique to Tau.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

You act like they're guaranteed to hit. First they have to get the nova charge off. Secondly they have to land a large blast with a BS3. I don't think that blast ignores cover, so get in cover. Secondly one large blast isn't going to really scare my T6 TMCs. And if someone has brought 3 Riptides, then i'm assuming the rest of their army is rather poor. Whether its lack of scoring units, lack of support units, whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

How do marker lights stop 3 Riptides from Nova Charging str 9 large blasts again?

To be fair, Nids don't really fear Str9 ap2 large blasts, they have enough MC(6-10, 4-6 wounds each) so a Tau that only has Riptides as anti MC is in problems. The thing that any Tyranid should fear when facing Tau is that dammed Skyray that can oneshot any of our MC with the exception of the Tyrannofex.

Haven't faced a Skyray yet... What does it have that can 1shot a T6 W6 TMC?

How can you judge and make assumptions on how 3 Riptides means the rest of the Tau army brought will be poorly itemized? LMAO Wow...

Ok no... That BS3 means complete frak all, even if you scatter, the chances of you completely obliterating someone elses troops (Which is really all you need to do with Large Blasts) is completely worth it. The 3+ roll for a Nova Charge is bloody easy as heck to make... and once you're through pretty much removing your opponents ability to score objectives that he doesn't park a Terv on you force him to play (Wait for this) DEFENSIVELY :O

Because as soon as you realize you have to hide in cover, those said Skyrays will have a bloody field day with you. And since the Riptide is an Elite you can still bring 3 Skyrays which all ignore cover with TL-SMS let alone the 6 Seeker Missles that are AP3 and will wound on 2s even on your lovely MCs.

Where is your God when a Tau player doesn't have to try in his attempts to table you?

Cuz I've done it a plethora of times... Which is why I no longer play Tau...

Um, are you ok?

People who hate Tau are just a bunch of whiney turd burglars....That is all, good day to you all!

 Tyran wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:


Haven't faced a Skyray yet... What does it have that can 1shot a T6 W6 TMC?

It is a 115 points tank with BS4 6 one-shoot missiles, SMS and 2 markerlights. And Skyfire. Factor markerlights form other units+ the ones already integrated in the tank and this thing can fire 6 bs5+ str8 ap3 shoots that ignore cover.
Yeah it doesn't shoots those missiles again, but that is 115 points that 1 shooted a Tervigon, or a Flyrant, or any other MC that isn't a Tyrannofex.

Glad I haven't seen it yet then. Sounds... lovely. So when it blows its load on 1 MC possibly not killing it as it does roll to hit/wound as normal and yes there are 1's and 2's on a D6... then whats it doing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
People who hate Tau are just a bunch of whiney turd burglars....That is all, good day to you all!

Seriously. 90% of my games are against Tau and the only thing I haven't fought was Skyrays. I really don't mind playing against Tau at all.

I really don't know what is wrong with you. Like not to be mean or anything, but what everyone else has been saying is totally true. I was able to beat a very seasoned player in my first 2 weeks of the game, pretty much because I was playing Tau, and ignores cover is just OP. The Buff Commander is absolutely great, especially when put in a Farsight Bomb or an O'Vesa Star. With the Farsight Enclaves supplement, Crisis Suits are Troops! The Talisman also provides the much needed Psychic defense. You can DS troops now, in units of 1 to 3. When it comes down to that untouched objective, that can be killer for your opponent. I don't know if you just had a bad game experience against Tau, but there is not much that they/you can do wrong when running a Tau army. Just as long as you don't run Space Pope. How did you get your opinion on Tau?

Haven't faced a Skyray yet... What does it have that can 1shot a T6 W6 TMC?

It is a 115 points tank with BS4 6 one-shoot missiles, SMS and 2 markerlights. And Skyfire. Factor markerlights form other units+ the ones already integrated in the tank and this thing can fire 6 bs5+ str8 ap3 shoots that ignore cover.
Yeah it doesn't shoots those missiles again, but that is 115 points that 1 shooted a Tervigon, or a Flyrant, or any other MC that isn't a Tyrannofex.

Glad I haven't seen it yet then. Sounds... lovely. So when it blows its load on 1 MC possibly not killing it as it does roll to hit/wound as normal and yes there are 1's and 2's on a D6... then whats it doing?

Well then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I really don't know what is wrong with you. Like not to be mean or anything, but what everyone else has been saying is totally true. I was able to beat a very seasoned player in my first 2 weeks of the game, pretty much because I was playing Tau, and ignores cover is just OP. The Buff Commander is absolutely great, especially when put in a Farsight Bomb or an O'Vesa Star. With the Farsight Enclaves supplement, Crisis Suits are Troops! The Talisman also provides the much needed Psychic defense. You can DS troops now, in units of 1 to 3. When it comes down to that untouched objective, that can be killer for your opponent. I don't know if you just had a bad game experience against Tau, but there is not much that they/you can do wrong when running a Tau army. Just as long as you don't run Space Pope. How did you get your opinion on Tau?

I'll assume you're talking to me?... Uh what's wrong with me? I don't know? I guess I don't play against power gaming WAAC Tau players that spam riptides I suppose. The games we play are typically reasonable and not spammy.

Once the Skyray has fired all its missiles it becomes a support piece that fires 2 markerlights and smart missiles that ignore line of sight. Both weapons still have Skyfire and BS4. If it survives to late game you can use it to tank shock troops off of objectives.

Back to the OP. Tau are not any more hated then GK and Necrons were in last edition. Prior to that it was Daemon Breath of Chaos spam, IG "leafblower" and Space Wolf long fang spam...before that we saw Ork Bikers and Nidzilla, going back further it was tri-falcon Harlequin spam etc. etc. ...these things come and go and there's been a long history of it.

As a Tau player, I honestly feel the book is not OP. Its the Allies rules that breaks the codex and takes it to the OP power level and that is 6th edition's fault. Tau and Eldar (Eldar view everyone else as inferior races) should not have been Battle Brothers. Tau and Space Marines (Marines and IG distrust or outright hate Xenos in every single bit of fluff/novel) should not be Battle Brothers IMO either.

I like the IG as battle brothers only because you can fluff them into Human auxillaries loyal to the Empire (also presents an interesting modelling challenge to 'tauify' IG models). EDIT: In that same vein I think it would be nice to have them as Battle Brothers for chaos as well, only because you then have a solid stand in for Traitor Guard, ignoring that you can just chaosify the normal IG models anyway.

I always kinda thought of the tau as dwarves.... No magic, all tech, short things. (yes I know, squats. I think the tau might just n less dwarfy dwarves.)

 Peregrine wrote:

It's complete nonsense. The Tau balance problems pretty much start and end with the Riptide, which is a blatant case of making an overpowered unit (which doesn't even fit the previous fluff) to sell the new $80 kit. Take away the ability to get cross-table pie plates and Tau become a lot more balanced. All of their other units are pretty limited in range, they have lots of shooting within 36" (and even more within 12-18") and JSJ mobility, but their firepower outside 36" is pretty much nonexistent and they struggle to take and hold objectives outside of their own deployment zone. The previous codex had the exact same fundamental concepts, but was a mediocre mono-build codex at best.

That is why eldar allies exist. 2 Windrider squads, a Mantleseer and a Wraithknight go a long way in remedying mobility issues.

The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

You have cover, we have markerlights and Buff commanders.
You have reserves, we have EWO.
You have flyers, we have Velocity Trackers.
You have MCs, we have Buff commanders.
You have multiple high threat units, we have Target locks to kill multiple ones per turn.
You scatter while DS'ing, we drop Fbombs in your face.
You have slow units, we get to Thrust move away from you.
You have short range, we have the longest..
You need help... we can ally with almost everyone.
You have a rule that does something cool, we have a piece of wargear that does the same....

etc.. etc.. etc...

Yes, they have weaknesses, but nonetheless, they are the swiss army knife of 40k. And with the ruleset we have they are very good at what they do.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

It's complete nonsense. The Tau balance problems pretty much start and end with the Riptide, which is a blatant case of making an overpowered unit (which doesn't even fit the previous fluff) to sell the new $80 kit. Take away the ability to get cross-table pie plates and Tau become a lot more balanced. All of their other units are pretty limited in range, they have lots of shooting within 36" (and even more within 12-18") and JSJ mobility, but their firepower outside 36" is pretty much nonexistent and they struggle to take and hold objectives outside of their own deployment zone. The previous codex had the exact same fundamental concepts, but was a mediocre mono-build codex at best.

That is why eldar allies shouldn't exist. 2 Windrider squads, a Mantleseer and a Wraithknight go a long way in remedying mobility issues.

Fixed .

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Daemons aren't OP... Also, if you wanna deal with the deathstar, then kill the guy with the grimoire it's that simple... Same way you take out markerlights.

When I first started, I will be honest I didn't like the Tau or their tactics. But now that I have played them a few times and actually won a game against a netlist with my Orks I actually don't mind them. Games against the Tau are still not that fun, but now that I have some tactics and usually good LOS blocking terrain I do not pass up games against them. By not that fun, I mean setting up 150+ models then removing large groups of them without them ever doing anything.

Their aesthetic has been growing on me also. I am thinking about creating an Ork army with looted Tau weaponry. I would not want the Tau army removed from the game and I think they work well within the 40K universe.

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

And if someone has brought 3 Riptides, then i'm assuming the rest of their army is rather poor. Whether its lack of scoring units, lack of support units, whatever.

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

I'll assume you're talking to me?... Uh what's wrong with me? I don't know? I guess I don't play against power gaming WAAC Tau players that spam riptides I suppose. The games we play are typically reasonable and not spammy.

Back peddle much? You can talk about this gak until you're blue in the face. Tau and Eldar have more overpowered units than all of the other codices combined. It's been said, it will be said again and I'm saying it now. Who gives a gak at this point? It's time to move on.

The Tau a great because of all the reasons listed here. Not because they are OP, not because they are an auto win army but because tactically they play so different from every other faction.

They do have their weaknesses and if properly exploited then Tau are easy to beat. Troops are fairly squishy and have poor leadership. I tend to lose more units from falling back than due to wounds.

Not sure on the Riptide though as I haven't fielded mine yet. It does look like a monster.

 SmackTalk wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

And if someone has brought 3 Riptides, then i'm assuming the rest of their army is rather poor. Whether its lack of scoring units, lack of support units, whatever.

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

I'll assume you're talking to me?... Uh what's wrong with me? I don't know? I guess I don't play against power gaming WAAC Tau players that spam riptides I suppose. The games we play are typically reasonable and not spammy.

Back peddle much? You can talk about this gak until you're blue in the face. Tau and Eldar have more overpowered units than all of the other codices combined. It's been said, it will be said again and I'm saying it now. Who gives a gak at this point? It's time to move on.

Uh where the feth did I back peddle genius? I "ASSUMED" one thing about a riptide spam list, when did I say I played against them?

If you can't see how you back peddled then I would be the idiot to continue this discussion.

 SmackTalk wrote:
If you can't see how you back peddled then I would be the idiot to continue this discussion.

Anybody spamming Riptides is clearly a WAAC player/Spam Player. But his list may suffer in scoring, where did I back pedal?

Hahahaha! I love all the rage comments we're getting here. That's what I love about dakka, there's no shortage of war gamers who are ready to have a heated argument.

On topic, tau are disliked because they're the only optimistic race in 40k. Everyone else is either evil, insane, or tragic. Seriously, have you seen BL writers try to make tau seem just as grimdark as the other factions? It's an utter failure! The majority of 40k players (myself included) are probably more into darker scifi. Tau are just a bunch of pansies who believe in friendship.

Riptides are hard to kill at range, accept it. It's really the only hard to kill model in their range. And get it to melee with anything S5+ and watch how quickly is goes away.

It's also the only way to get effective Str 8 and higher at range. The options are Broadsides, whose heavy rail rifles are laughable (should have been Str 9 OR Rapid Fire), the single shot Seeker Missiles, and nova charged Riptides. And Nova Charging only works 66% of the time.

Tau are very customize-able. They have tools to handle any situation, but can't afford to take all of those answers all of the time. If you didn't take flyers, that was points wasted and a slot wasted on Velocity Trackers. No reserves? Guess the Early Warning Over-ride was a waste too. The list goes on.

So yes, Tau can make a list to counter almost anything if they know what you are playing. Maybe if you stopped net-listing they wouldn't know what you will have.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/574990.page

With very few of the armies breaking the 10 votes mark, and Tau being well over 100, and eldar just behind I don't know how any of you can argue that tau are hated because of this fluff or that play style. It's simple my dudes. Their rules are powerful and their point costs are low / do not reflect said rules or wargear. That's all there is to it. End of discussion.

So the 2 people trying to convince us that Tau aren't op have also said they don't play with/against riptide spam and are not tournament players... Well sorry but that was never going to work.

@OP Tau were not hated last edition when they sucked but had the same fluff.

 LordofHats wrote:
I like the IG as battle brothers only because you can fluff them into Human auxillaries loyal to the Empire (also presents an interesting modelling challenge to 'tauify' IG models). EDIT: In that same vein I think it would be nice to have them as Battle Brothers for chaos as well, only because you then have a solid stand in for Traitor Guard, ignoring that you can just chaosify the normal IG models anyway.

This is as it should be. IG, especially, can be used for so many non-Imperial factions that it isn't even funny, and should be allied to so many other Codices to represent, say, the Blood Pact or a Gue'vesa milita. Shoot, make them AoC to Tyranids and now you have a GS-compromised PDF/IG unit who thinks the Hive Fleet is the coming of the Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:
So the 2 people trying to convince us that Tau aren't op have also said they don't play with/against riptide spam and are not tournament players... Well sorry but that was never going to work.

@OP Tau were not hated last edition when they sucked but had the same fluff.

They were, actually, but for different reasons, as mentioned further up the thread. In those days, they were hated as being "not grimdark".

I think the hate comes first a foremost just from shear codex power. Nobody likes being utterly crushed by a codex that is clearly more powerful than theirs and clearly giving their opponent an unfair advantage. As a Tau player, I hated going up against IG in 5th edition because I was outnumbered, outgunned, I could even be outmaneuvered thanks to Vendettas and had to deal with the free bonuses they got, such as orders. Since the latest codex dropped, I have heard similar complaints from my opponents, as my army can just obliterate certain classes of units with very little effort. I don't think this particular problem is unique to the Tau dex, but is just a consequence of codex creep and sloppy external balancing on GW part, and I expect a codex which is more powerful then Tau or Eldar to be released eventually. The 6e rules do not help matters either, LOS rules favor shooting armies while an abundance of other rules collectively make assault extremely difficult, which benefit Tau immensely.

There also is a secondary problem in that the Tau were converted to a gunline army for no particular reason, making them both more boring to play and play against. I imagine a considerable number of people would have been happier if Tau were made into a mobile, aggressive, short range army with only a few long range elements like they were in the previous codex.

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Just wanted to address this point, because it is not a reasonable one imho. Jy2 'nearly won' that game by hiding his entire nid army for most of the game to even have the 1 in 3 chance to snatch victory on objectives. And even then the only reason he even had a chance to do that was due to a big blunder on Reecius's part. I totally agree that it was by far the smartest game strategy that Jy2 had, but come on, seriously? Why on earth should a Tyranid army's best chance at victory come by hiding away for an entire game? I am not taking away from Jy2's performance and decision making (he is an excellent player), but Reece's army is the one that should have won that game, and they did. His early move to pull the relic back was brilliant and he played the board and objectives well. His only error was leaving even the possibility for a turn 5 steal. To say that the Tyranid army "should've" won that game is just subjective bias towards Tyranids. They had at best their 33% chance to steal (i.e. more likely to fail than succeed) and they didn't get it.

Back to the topic at hand though, even with the previous 2 codexes there were plenty of people that hated Tau just for what they are. The main gripe has always been that they apparently don't suit the 40k universe. I disagree, but to be fair I am a Tau player (though primarily a Marine player), and I've always very much liked their fluff and visual style right from the moment they were launched. Even when they were terrible I loved them . There are also a new batch of people that hate them because of the overpowered perception (and to be fair, they are certainly a top tier codex without question). And there are people that don't enjoy playing them because there is so much shooting and so little assault in many Tau vs anyone games. I totally get the criticisms, but it's just personal preference. Myself, I hate fighting Orks because I find huge assaults with immense numbers of dice really irritating to resolve, and boring. I also hate them visually, they are the worst race in 40k in my opinion. Everyone can just hate whoever they like though, doesn't stop me from liking my Tau or my Marines

I think I disagree with everything the OP said.

 SmackTalk wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/574990.page

With very few of the armies breaking the 10 votes mark, and Tau being well over 100, and eldar just behind I don't know how any of you can argue that tau are hated because of this fluff or that play style. It's simple my dudes. Their rules are powerful and their point costs are low / do not reflect said rules or wargear. That's all there is to it. End of discussion.

There have been may threads on the subject of fluff, and Tau often rank number one in polls about "Which faction would you remove" "Which Factions fluff do you dislike the most" Etc etc. This was long before they got their current codex.

Tau hate has been strong and going on for quite a while.

They don't have 'magic' (psykers) they use technology to achieve a similar affect.

Their inability to harness the warp is their greatest disadvantage against enemies. Look at their FTL travel for instance. It's safer, but nowhere near as fast as warp travel.

They don't resort to getting in close (HtH) because that is the last place anyone wants to be in our own reality.

Neither do the Imperial Guard.

They use advanced suits to help them achieve a battlefield type advantage.

Space Marines?

They rely on ranged fire to defeat the enemy and don't care about 'honour' which prevents them giving up anything vital or making more stupid decisions.

Tau don't have honor? Tau actively try to avoid killing non-combatants, even enemy combat-medics and the like. Tau will strike a deal with you and will honor it. Tau will try a dozen times over the course of decades to use diplomacy and negotiation to get what they want from you before saying screwing it and taking it, and even when they do say screw it, they oftentimes still try to minimize collateral damage, not because they're forced to but because they don't approve of senseless violence. Tau are the most honorable race in the entire galaxy.

Boniface wrote:

They just don't fit in because they have all the inherent advantages of being Sci-fi and none of the drawback the other races have.
[...]
They rely on ranged fire to defeat the enemy and don't care about 'honour' which prevents them giving up anything vital or making more stupid decisions.

This translates really badly onto the tabletop of a game based on medieval fantasy with guns.

You've nailed it man. Tau would be just fine in like, Mass Effect or something, but they don't fit the space fantasy idea of 40k. They also have that boring rationalism thing going on - I want my 40k to be full of idiots going to war more to "purge the xenos" or "for gaks and giggles", and less for strategic purposes.

Would be cool if more people would talk about this, what you've actually based your argument on, rather than "blah blah low weapon skill this markerlights that" tabletop stuff. People should look at the artwork from older editions of 40k, and ask themselves honestly - where the hell does Tau fit into this?

With regards to that, Fragile's post sums it up. Tau breaks too many rules, just like the helldrake and D weapons

Edit:

Tau don't have honor? Tau actively try to avoid killing non-combatants, even enemy combat-medics and the like. Tau will strike a deal with you and will honor it. Tau will try a dozen times over the course of decades to use diplomacy and negotiation to get what they want from you before saying screwing it and taking it, and even when they do say screw it, they oftentimes still try to minimize collateral damage, not because they're forced to but because they don't approve of senseless violence. Tau are the most honorable race in the entire galaxy.

Yuck, the more Tau fluff I read, the more boring and bland they become. You also totally missed the point of the OP, just like most other posters ITT - the word 'honour' as he has used it is essentially 'stupidity', and the Tau don't meet the minimum stupidity quota for this setting.

 Dakkamite wrote:

You've nailed it man. Tau would be just fine in like, Mass Effect or something, but they don't fit the space fantasy idea of 40k. They also have that boring rationalism thing going on - I want my 40k to be full of idiots going to war more to "purge the xenos" or "for gaks and giggles", and less for strategic purposes.

I dunno if you've noticed, but 40k in general has begun to move towards the "generic sci-fi" direction with its themes and stories. Pragmatism is the new black, everyone is doing it (even Daemons for crying out loud!) and idiots are only mentioned for the giggles.

Yeah, I've noticed it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!

Again the art tells the story. I miss my "black formless things with teeth", million mile tall golden throne, and all that other crap from the 3rd ed BRB

 Dakkamite wrote:
Yeah, I've noticed it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!

Again the art tells the story. I miss my "black formless things with teeth", million mile tall golden throne, and all that other crap from the 3rd ed BRB

Then maybe the sh*tty fluff and theme are not the Tau's fault?

 Dakkamite wrote:

Yuck, the more Tau fluff I read, the more boring and bland they become. You also totally missed the point of the OP, just like most other posters ITT - the word 'honour' as he has used it is essentially 'stupidity', and the Tau don't meet the minimum stupidity quota for this setting.

I didn't miss the point at all. "Stupidity" is not the correct definition for "honor". That would be like me saying the Tau are "tall", and then getting irritated and clarifying that by "tall" I meant that their skin is blue.

If the OP wants people to understand his point, then perhaps the OP should learn proper english.

In any case, the Tau's forward thinking is refreshing to me. "Grimdark", like all "concepts", needs a canvas upon which it can contrast too. If there is no good than there is no evil. The Tau's shiny rationalization only makes the stupidity of the other races shine brighter; it doesn't diminish the Universe's grimdarkenss at all.

 Cryogen wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Just wanted to address this point, because it is not a reasonable one imho. Jy2 'nearly won' that game by hiding his entire nid army for most of the game to even have the 1 in 3 chance to snatch victory on objectives. And even then the only reason he even had a chance to do that was due to a big blunder on Reecius's part. I totally agree that it was by far the smartest game strategy that Jy2 had, but come on, seriously? Why on earth should a Tyranid army's best chance at victory come by hiding away for an entire game? I am not taking away from Jy2's performance and decision making (he is an excellent player), but Reece's army is the one that should have won that game, and they did. His early move to pull the relic back was brilliant and he played the board and objectives well. His only error was leaving even the possibility for a turn 5 steal. To say that the Tyranid army "should've" won that game is just subjective bias towards Tyranids. They had at best their 33% chance to steal (i.e. more likely to fail than succeed) and they didn't get it.

Back to the topic at hand though, even with the previous 2 codexes there were plenty of people that hated Tau just for what they are. The main gripe has always been that they apparently don't suit the 40k universe. I disagree, but to be fair I am a Tau player (though primarily a Marine player), and I've always very much liked their fluff and visual style right from the moment they were launched. Even when they were terrible I loved them . There are also a new batch of people that hate them because of the overpowered perception (and to be fair, they are certainly a top tier codex without question). And there are people that don't enjoy playing them because there is so much shooting and so little assault in many Tau vs anyone games. I totally get the criticisms, but it's just personal preference. Myself, I hate fighting Orks because I find huge assaults with immense numbers of dice really irritating to resolve, and boring. I also hate them visually, they are the worst race in 40k in my opinion. Everyone can just hate whoever they like though, doesn't stop me from liking my Tau or my Marines

Well I disagree and that's honestly a mentality best suited to lose... Just because I'm a Tyranids player my mentality coming into every game is not going to be "I am Tyranids! I am meant to just rush my opponent and smash face regardless if that is a good idea or not!". No, it's more going to be "What should my game plan be against the current list/army across the table from me". If it's smart to bumb rush and kill everything in sight quick fine, if it's smarter todo what jy2 did in his batrep, then so be it. As long as what I am doing inevitably gives me the greatest shot at winning, that's what I will do. Regardless of the army I play.

Tau have stupidity in spades! Read the Dark Eldar codex, where the DE get the Tau to agree to a Cultural exchange that results in an army of tau-based grotesques.

Tau have grimdark too. Has no one seen the section of the mind control worms? Or how diplomacy with the Vespid was faltering until the Tau gave them mind control "Communication" helmets?

It's a different take on grimdark than the Imperium, but then, so are half the armies in the game! It just feels out of place because the Imperium is shoved down your throat so much it seems that is the only way.

"There's no room in this giant universe for a race that isn't like the others."

What??
Or...

"I don't like them, so no one else should."

Um...okay.

scottagain wrote:
Tau have stupidity in spades! Read the Dark Eldar codex, where the DE get the Tau to agree to a Cultural exchange that results in an army of tau-based grotesques.

Tau have grimdark too. Has no one seen the section of the mind control worms? Or how diplomacy with the Vespid was faltering until the Tau gave them mind control "Communication" helmets?

It's a different take on grimdark than the Imperium, but then, so are half the armies in the game! It just feels out of place because the Imperium is shoved down your throat so much it seems that is the only way.

I'd go with this honestly. The Tau aren't good guys. If anything, they're the most insidious bastards in the entire franchise. THey look all nice and sophisticated but its just a facade built over a dark ugly reality. I just kind of wish this angle was harped more in the fluff. It gets mentioned like, one time in the old codex and like, three times in the new one and never with any certainty its always 'maybe.' The Tau fluff should better emphasis their false utopia than it currently does.

 Jimsolo wrote:
First off, I dispute that 'no-one likes Tau.' In fact, most people on dakka have a favorable opinion of them.
(...)

Good to hear that! I also believed people disliked Tau, and didn´t know why.
Exalted.

By the way: 15,38% disliked the Tau, while 62,77% said they liked them. 21,85% said they didn´t care.
That´s a 1:4 ratio haters:lovers. Quite good on the Internet.

*reads though thread. Just shakes his head and walks away*

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction.

Just thought I'd point out that this is untrue. Squats were a mainstay army in 40k in the early days and they were "dissappeared"... in 3rd I think. Written out of the fulff and everything.

 Gitsplitta wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction.

Just thought I'd point out that this is patently untrue. Squats were a mainstay army in 40k in the early days and they were "dissappeared"... in 3rd I think. Written out of the fulff and everything.

Fair enough. I guess I should've said they'd never just delete such a money drawing popular power house like Tau.

Yes, well... I doubt the Squats were generating the kind of revinue that I assume the Tau are.

Well I hated Tau when they had a completly crap codex and remember many people did too. The reason was complete lack of in your face grimdark and 3+ toyish models. Now with the new Broadsides looking incredible and Riptides looking bad but at least not being childish, Fire warriors looking good as ever, you have a visualy great army unless you look at them without helmets and remind yourself that

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
On topic, tau are disliked because they're the only optimistic race in 40k. Everyone else is either evil, insane, or tragic. Seriously, have you seen BL writers try to make tau seem just as grimdark as the other factions? It's an utter failure! The majority of 40k players (myself included) are probably more into darker scifi. Tau are just a bunch of pansies who believe in friendship.

instead of, for example, a 40k variation of B class movie grey aliens with abductions, experiments, mind control (with rules for it) etc. IMO.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Second, I don't think that the bedrock of 40k is the sci-fantasy descriptor, but rather the dystopian descriptor. To that end, Tau are absolutely in the 40k wheelhouse. If anything, the game would be better served by removing Tyranids.

Could you elaborate? No offense but that's a bit outlandish imo, leave the little characterless fish guys and get rid of huge scary murderous bug dinosaur aliens? I with all my disgust for Tau fluff don't want to see them go only a bit more into open genocide and pure evil, why would you just remove a grimdark race that was there almost from the beggining?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
In any case, the Tau's forward thinking is refreshing to me. "Grimdark", like all "concepts", needs a canvas upon which it can contrast too. If there is no good than there is no evil. The Tau's shiny rationalization only makes the stupidity of the other races shine brighter; it doesn't diminish the Universe's grimdarkenss at all.

You can contrast 40k grimdarkness with other sf, real life, art, whatever, you don't have to put Tau, ponies or fireman Sam into the universe. Tau taint the hopelessness of 40k with their naive good, not to mention the everything grimdark grimdarkness was a joke in itself, well not anymore. They spoil the mood for me and I really hope Mat Ward will grab them at some point and make a story of Crisis suits kicking pregnant mothers and building bipods for rail guns out of skulls.

It stands to reason that most non-tau players wouldn't like an army that can

Effectively neutralize your reserves with a 5 point upgrade
Negate your tactics/skill with their badly written rules with minimal player input
Have the most cost effective army in the game
Have a hard counter to nearly all, if not all of their inherent weaknesses that their codex is supposed to have.
Gets to weave their way around core game rules like LOS, cover and stat deficiencies (for their own shooting purposes)
Forces you to play their game (which they are naturally much better at) unless your army has some variation on a deepstrike alpha strike

Their codex is pretty much an easy button that plays as much of a role in winning games as the Tau player does (often times moreso).

I'm pretty sure that covers the worst points, but I could go on.

Personally I hate tau because of how boring they are to play, nobody likes getting shot to pieces from a distance by a tau castle that only really uses its shooting phase and nothing else.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Personally I hate tau because of how boring they are to play, nobody likes getting shot to pieces from a distance by a tau castle that only really uses its shooting phase and nothing else.

Then don't take that list. This is a problem that is well within your hands to fix.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Could you elaborate? No offense but that's a bit outlandish imo, leave the little characterless fish guys and get rid of huge scary murderous bug dinosaur aliens? I with all my disgust for Tau fluff don't want to see them go only a bit more into open genocide and pure evil, why would you just remove a grimdark race that was there almost from the beggining?

Easy. The Tau are not nice people, despite having the outward appearance of it. When non-Tau join the Empire, they are second-class citizens. If they criticize this arrangement, they disappear into what amounts to "re-education camps". The Vespid might be mind-controlled by those helmets. There is a very dystopian vibe to the Tau Empire, like a grimdark parody of Communist China under Chairman Mao.

The Tyranids have no such vibe, and something like them can be found in nearly every sci-fi setting. They are, perhaps, one of the least-original aspects of 40K.

Least original in a universe that's essentially Lord of the Rings in Space? Wow. I can't think of a worse thing to be.

And the Tau don't need to be a parody of Communist China. They are communist China (in space).

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Daemons aren't OP... Also, if you wanna deal with the deathstar, then kill the guy with the grimoire it's that simple... Same way you take out markerlights.

It isn't that simple actually. That requires you focusing out the single target who still has a re-rollable 4++ invuln save. Also he's an IC meaning he is getting a 2+ lookout sir. There's also the scary Flying Circus. Personally I don't think it's broken but it is pretty devestating against many. I do agree that daemons aren't op as much as a single build is.

Thought I should check in.

I made a mistake in my original post about honour. I didn't mean honour I meant personal glory I.e. The seemingly honourable way to fight 1 on 1 and the such... So I did indeed phrase it badly.

Again I was merely trying to point out the race doesn't seem to fit the game more than anything else. I love tau and don't want to see then go or anything I was merely trying to find a 'greater good' for the game.

I think the past number of threads and responses therein is a pretty good indication of feelings towards Tau.

Again I think Tau might be a large contributing factor to why 6th isn't working.
I don't think the rules help but Tau have so many rule breaking things it makes the game lose 'shape' from it's intended one.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No lol. Tau do have disadvantages, it's just people are too focused on the fact they should just die in assault and that's the only way.

Most Tau models are T3, with a 4+ or a 5+. They are also mostly BS3. I can't stress enough to take out markerlights... It's that easy. My best friend mains Tau and I main Nids, I win more than my fair share of games against him... Especially with the new Nids dex.

Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction lol If you want to take about overpowered broken garbage, then delete Daemons? At least I can kill Tau models. Having this 2++ rerollable death star in my deployment or closing in on it isn't something to be desired.

JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Daemons aren't OP... Also, if you wanna deal with the deathstar, then kill the guy with the grimoire it's that simple... Same way you take out markerlights.

It isn't that simple actually. That requires you focusing out the single target who still has a re-rollable 4++ invuln save. Also he's an IC meaning he is getting a 2+ lookout sir. There's also the scary Flying Circus. Personally I don't think it's broken but it is pretty devestating against many. I do agree that daemons aren't op as much as a single build is.

When done right the guy with the Grimoire is in the Screamerstar, so you have to get through the Deathstar to get to him...

 Psienesis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Could you elaborate? No offense but that's a bit outlandish imo, leave the little characterless fish guys and get rid of huge scary murderous bug dinosaur aliens? I with all my disgust for Tau fluff don't want to see them go only a bit more into open genocide and pure evil, why would you just remove a grimdark race that was there almost from the beggining?

Easy. The Tau are not nice people, despite having the outward appearance of it. When non-Tau join the Empire, they are second-class citizens. If they criticize this arrangement, they disappear into what amounts to "re-education camps". The Vespid might be mind-controlled by those helmets. There is a very dystopian vibe to the Tau Empire, like a grimdark parody of Communist China under Chairman Mao.

Yes I know the subtle nods to totalitarian regime. Subtle is not enough! Tentacles in your mouth, droping nuclear bombs on civilians, torture, slaughter, skulls. Leave subtleties to Mass Effect or sth.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Tyranids have no such vibe, and something like them can be found in nearly every sci-fi setting. They are, perhaps, one of the least-original aspects of 40K.

There is not a single original thing in 40k. It's a one big ripoff briliantly twisted to grimdark, that was always its charm. Read Nemesis the Warlock comic, you will find everything - emperor of the xenophobic empire and his terminators divided into chapters launching a space crusade against aliens, khaos daemon fighting them, Imperial one liners, type of ornaments that you have in codieces now, space maps style etc. If you take a few pictures from various 2000AD comics like ABC warriors or Judge Dredd you can complete the whole Space Marine armour, every part of it is somewhere there. Bolter is just a variation of Dredd's gun, Drop pods came from Rogue Trooper, Nurgle is directly taken from Moorcock book (one of the icarnations of chaos god, that was in the first of Corum books) as is most of Chaos, Necrons from Terminator, Tyranids from Aliens, Tau from some manga/ anime I don't remember a name of, fishmen from Heinlein? (not sure here), Dark Eldar design is mainly Hellraiser, Orks and Eldar well that's obvious, Goblins design again direct from Nemesis the Warlock, early guard designs from Aliens, late guard from Starship troopers (movie) etc. Add bits from Dune, 100 little "homages" like Marbo, twist to grimdark and there you go. You want to remove unoriginal bits from 40k, you may be left with a coffin type Dreadnought (which I guess is there somewhere and I just missed it), Jokaero (if that's not a monkey from Pratchet) and some Vostroyans maybe.

That was not a valid point, imo.

I'm well aware of that... but if you were going to remove either the Tyranid or the Tau, based on which matched the "dystopia" vibe better, then the Tyranid gotta go.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm well aware of that... but if you were going to remove either the Tyranid or the Tau, based on which matched the "dystopia" vibe better, then the Tyranid gotta go.

I'm not sure. Tyranids may not be dystopian but Imperium that can be eaten by Tyranids any moment is. Remove the Tyranids you remove one horrible way to die from the pool.

 LordofHats wrote:
And the Tau don't need to be a parody of Communist China. They are communist China (in space).

Not entirely. Rigid caste system isn't exactly a communist idea. If anything I always saw them as what would have happened if old school India went fascist. Although to be completely fair both fascism and communism pretty much end up in the same place if you take them far enough, so that division isn't too important.

Any way, I can see why people don't like Tau. I play them because I personally love their models, fluff, and I also like shooting lots of really big guns. Sometimes I get the "Tau guilt" after I stomp my opponent particularly badly. Even if it's more luck than skill (I seem to pull out the fire dice when it counts more often than I should).

Both space marines and the *idea* of tyranids came from the "Starship Troopers" novel. Since that time, much has been stolen from the "Alien" mythos as well as other sources.

 LordofHats wrote:

scottagain wrote:
Tau have stupidity in spades! Read the Dark Eldar codex, where the DE get the Tau to agree to a Cultural exchange that results in an army of tau-based grotesques.

Tau have grimdark too. Has no one seen the section of the mind control worms? Or how diplomacy with the Vespid was faltering until the Tau gave them mind control "Communication" helmets?

It's a different take on grimdark than the Imperium, but then, so are half the armies in the game! It just feels out of place because the Imperium is shoved down your throat so much it seems that is the only way.

I'd go with this honestly. The Tau aren't good guys. If anything, they're the most insidious bastards in the entire franchise. THey look all nice and sophisticated but its just a facade built over a dark ugly reality. I just kind of wish this angle was harped more in the fluff. It gets mentioned like, one time in the old codex and like, three times in the new one and never with any certainty its always 'maybe.' The Tau fluff should better emphasis their false utopia than it currently does.

Yes I agree, it's just too subtle now. If it wasn't for designer notes or sth where they stated Tau are indeed a good race and a contrast to others then maybe I wouldn't require such a clarification but atm it's not enough for solid grimdark or grimdarkish joke, imo.

More about mind control and better look of the race, that's what they need. You can make small and skinny grey guys look grim if you want to:

http://s.pro-gmedia.com/videogamer/media/images/xbox360/xcom_enemy_unknown/screens/xcom_enemy_unknown_17.jpg

I agree with Peregrine.

Exactly what are the faults of the Tau as being a mechanically "broken" army if you completely remove the Riptide as an option?

The Riptide was made to be overpowered to make sure-sales of the new giant $80 kit. Especially in multiples.

Hell, assault-wise, at least now they don't have units of 20 Kroot rolling 60+ hth dice on the charge.

The tau faction fluff is perfectly dystopian. They just aren't rolling in skulls, which is what most 40K fans think such a thing needs to be legitimate.

I like the Tau and their background

Shame GW screwed up the balance and made OP units and Ally synergy :(

I don't hate tau, i'm happy to see them doing well. I don't get upset if one codex or another is at the top, i think they should all get their turn. I'm glad we have all the fluff we do to read from.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Exactly what are the faults of the Tau as being a mechanically "broken" army if you completely remove the Riptide as an option?
.

The problem is not with the Riptides. They are just undercosted by 40-60 points (and the Ion Accelerator is also undercosted by ~20 points). The problem is with stuff like Buffmanders and the over-the-top effectiveness of Markerlight support. Kill Buffmanders (by restricting Signature Systems to 1/model) and nerf markerlights (like 1 ML token/-1 cover save to a minimum of 6+ so no 2 ML token=ignore cover completely) and the Tau will be cool.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Exactly what are the faults of the Tau as being a mechanically "broken" army if you completely remove the Riptide as an option?
.

The problem is not with the Riptides. They are just undercosted by 40-60 points (and the Ion Accelerator is also undercosted by ~20 points). The problem is with stuff like Buffmanders and the over-the-top effectiveness of Markerlight support. Kill Buffmanders (by restricting Signature Systems to 1/model) and nerf markerlights (like 1 ML token/-1 cover save to a minimum of 6+ so no 2 ML token=ignore cover completely) and the Tau will be cool.

I can agree with this, the riptide isnt the hardest thing to deal with for me. Its the 2+ cover save from going to ground behind a defense line and then pulling off marker lights to bring ballistic skill up to normal again. It's hard to deal with unless you are bringing barrage specifically to deal with someone whos going to camp behind a defense line.

If you know you are playing against Tau which, from the sounds of things, are all but guaranteed to be doing that, why not bring a bunch of artillery barrage pie-plates to paste his fish-people across the field?

This is another thing that bugs me... Tau did not evolve from fish. They have hooves, for the Throne's sake! They're plains-dwelling omnivores! Where does the fish thing come from?

 Psienesis wrote:
If you know you are playing against Tau which, from the sounds of things, are all but guaranteed to be doing that, why not bring a bunch of artillery barrage pie-plates to paste his fish-people across the field?

This is another thing that bugs me... Tau did not evolve from fish. They have hooves, for the Throne's sake! They're plains-dwelling omnivores! Where does the fish thing come from?

I'm going to start bringing some barrage with my nids which equals to biovores mostly, maybe a crone, or harpy, i forget which does the spore mines. I held off forever because im not a fan of biovores. On the upside with the changes to hive guard i can ignore his cover save. The only down side is i don't think it will work very well. Getting across the board so i can get in range to return fire may be difficult, tyranids just don't have the range to compete, but maybe the number of threats will make up for that.

And no, tau evolved from fish. Simply because i like saying "sushi" every time i'm against tau.

Lots of people didn't like Tau before the latest codex, because they seem to be glaringly different from the other factions, and part of an obvious attempt to gain entry to the emerging markets in SE Asia [which seemingly every company was doing at the time].

Personally Tau are a non-entity to me as no-one I know plays them, or wants to play them. Also they get very little love from Black Library, so overall are easy to ignore.

Well legitimately, people also harped on the Tau's not even disguised whatsoever plot armor and I can agree with that. The Tau especially in the last Dex's fluff had very blatant "we're a playable faction we can't die" plot armor that defied internal logic.

Now we know the Imperium didn't crush them because everyone got shot dead

Yes I know the subtle nods to totalitarian regime. Subtle is not enough! Tentacles in your mouth, droping nuclear bombs on civilians, torture, slaughter, skulls. Leave subtleties to Mass Effect or sth.

Why does everybody have to be so obviously evil? Doesn't the 40k setting have a place for an evil race who is smart enough to not openly advertise they are evil? We already have plenty of races that walk around covered with skulls and carrying pikes with disembodied heads, including Chaos, Dark Eldar, and Orks. Having a race that does not engage in this practice is a refreshing change of pace. The Tau are still evil. They may exercise patience and use diplomacy, but at the end of the day only one of two things happens to anybody the Tau encounter: they either get conquered, or annihilated.

One of the neat things about the Tau is the models aesthetics match the races approach to conquest and warfare. The models are clean and don't carry any sort of skull motif or trophies, but are nevertheless present for one purpose: to kill. Everything about the Tau is practical, they do what they do for power and they will destroy anybody who gets in their way. As another poster mentioned, this is actually a rather potent and insidious form of evil. If you don't appreciate how nasty somebody with the Tau's approach to evil, I suggest you read 1984. Trust me, this kind of evil is not halfhearted.

Phanixis wrote:

Yes I know the subtle nods to totalitarian regime. Subtle is not enough! Tentacles in your mouth, droping nuclear bombs on civilians, torture, slaughter, skulls. Leave subtleties to Mass Effect or sth.

Why does everybody have to be so obviously evil? Doesn't the 40k setting have a place for an evil race who is smart enough to not openly advertise they are evil? We already have plenty of races that walk around covered with skulls and carrying pikes with disembodied heads, including Chaos, Dark Eldar, and Orks. Having a race that does not engage in this practice is a refreshing change of pace. The Tau are still evil. They may exercise patience and use diplomacy, but at the end of the day only one of two things happens to anybody the Tau encounter: they either get conquered, or annihilated.

One of the neat things about the Tau is the models aesthetics match the races approach to conquest and warfare. The models are clean and don't carry any sort of skull motif or trophies, but are nevertheless present for one purpose: to kill. Everything about the Tau is practical, they do what they do for power and they will destroy anybody who gets in their way. As another poster mentioned, this is actually a rather potent and insidious form of evil. If you don't appreciate how nasty somebody with the Tau's approach to evil, I suggest you read 1984. Trust me, this kind of evil is not halfhearted.

I read 1984, think it is over - advertised imo but that's a different topic. I also lived under communist government for a bit and it's all still lively around here. It's not that I don't like subtlety, I just don't see the need for it in 40k. All I need from fluff and art is provide me a mood for battle, I love the background visualy but I think it is rather silly and does not need a high literature kind of depth, that only makes the silly parts stand out more. I appreciate the in your face crazy rotten armies or mumbling killer fanatics of 40k and think Tau would only benefit from proper grimdark treament. If you look at my post it was intentionaly over the top and I didn't literaly mean skulls on Riptides but rather some darker designs and art instead of that sunny pictures and obvious malice instead of all those puny negotiating and propaganda to cover their little enslavement plan (if there really is a plan). It doesn't suit 40k, imo.

Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

btw I like some models now, broadsides, firewarriors I just don't like the faces of Tau and Kroot, the former look bland and and remind me of admiral Ackbar (and I hate Star Wars) after a few punches and the latter look like something out of Warcraft also both are characterless races look wise. For me ofc.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Tau taint the hopelessness of 40k with their naive good, not to mention the everything grimdark grimdarkness was a joke in itself, well not anymore. They spoil the mood for me and I really hope Mat Ward will grab them at some point and make a story of Crisis suits kicking pregnant mothers and building bipods for rail guns out of skulls.

The problem here isn't the Tau, it's that you don't know the difference between "grimdark" and "parody of grimdark". The Tau are incredibly grimdark. Think about it this way: in any other scifi setting the Tau would be the generic "expansionist evil empire", but in 40k they are the shining embodiment of hope and decency. Why? Because they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and accept a position of slavery before they kill you, while everyone else just kills everything that moves regardless of how much of a waste it is. Once you stop and think about the Tau ideology you immediately realize that "the greater good" is nothing more than propaganda in the glorious tradition of "manifest destiny" (complete with genociding anyone that stands in the way of progress), the US delivering "freedom" at gunpoint to anyone who happens to have some oil that we want, etc. The galaxy will be ruled by the Tau, and everyone else will submit or die. And, again, this is the best possible fate for you in 40k.

And no, covering the Tau in skulls and the blood of slaughtered innocents wouldn't make them more grimdark, it would just make them stupid and annoying. It's the kind of superficial nonsense that appeals only to young kids who don't have the patience for anything more subtle.

I think Tau aren't liked because they are a young race that popped up out of nowhere and said "We're the greatest, even though everybody else has been around for tens of thousands of years longer than we have!" This attitude is considered among haters to make Tau unworthy of victory in any form.
This is why when they used to lose all the time, the haters would smirk and say, "Of course they lost. They're just Tau. Gotta teach them their place in the universe..."

When the new Codex came out painting the Tau as some of the most innovative geniuses in the galaxy/truly psychologically disturbing rather than over-the-top corrupt like everyone else/just plain badass, these haters became even more irate. Not because the Tau got a new Codex, but because now the Tau were going to start winning games, and in their little brains they still insist that in lieu of Tau arrogance, they don't DESERVE to win games on the table top. They're supposed to THINK they're superior while being shown that they're inferior. The fact that they now have the military might to justify their condescension just rubs salt on the wound.

Sadly, this attitude makes these haters, who once mocked the Tau for their "inferior military", look petulant and childish for hating the fact that the Tau can now stand firm against any threat while truculently wrecking armies that get in their way.


If there's an army who's absence would balance the game, I'd have to say it's space marines (including Chaos ones). Every army has guns that SHOULD be deadly, and would be if so many people didn't play an army who's infantry almost always gets a 3+ save. It just makes all the shooting feel so trite and unremarkable.
Imagine a game where making armor saves is lucky rather than expected. Cover and mobility tactics would become more vital. More risk would mean even brief shooting exchanges would be more exciting and would leave the targets more crippled. We'd see fewer armies loading up on weapons that SHOULD be overkill versus infantry (but sadly aren't)
Having space marines around has made the game too over-the-top.
Won't happen of course. But I think the game would have been better if SMs had never been included... And it would have made the IG that much more admirable.

Has nothing to do with inferior vs superior. I've been following 40k i n and off since 3rd, but only began playing at the beginning of 6th (I know, I know, I feel like an ass who missed out on the glory days). Having not been privvy to the Tau "complex" or whateveryou want to call it, I will tell you with relative objectivity (to aforementioned complex)that most of us hate Tau because the book is gorgonzola, the army is boring/dreadful to play against, the models are an obvious pander to the anime crowd and in a laid back enviornment the Tau player is usually TFG. A very, very, very distant last is the fluff. IMO the fluff is decent enough. Its not like new necrons bad or anything. I'm pretty certain a superioriry complex/sense of entitlement doesn't even show up on the "feth Tau-oscale"

 Peregrine wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Tau taint the hopelessness of 40k with their naive good, not to mention the everything grimdark grimdarkness was a joke in itself, well not anymore. They spoil the mood for me and I really hope Mat Ward will grab them at some point and make a story of Crisis suits kicking pregnant mothers and building bipods for rail guns out of skulls.

The problem here isn't the Tau, it's that you don't know the difference between "grimdark" and "parody of grimdark".

Apprently you don't get how something can be both.

 Peregrine wrote:
The Tau are incredibly grimdark. Think about it this way: in any other scifi setting the Tau would be the generic "expansionist evil empire", but in 40k they are the shining embodiment of hope and decency. Why? Because they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and accept a position of slavery before they kill you, while everyone else just kills everything that moves regardless of how much of a waste it is. Once you stop and think about the Tau ideology you immediately realize that "the greater good" is nothing more than propaganda in the glorious tradition of "manifest destiny" (complete with genociding anyone that stands in the way of progress), the US delivering "freedom" at gunpoint to anyone who happens to have some oil that we want, etc. The galaxy will be ruled by the Tau, and everyone else will submit or die. And, again, this is the best possible fate for you in 40k.

Too subtle, can't comprehend. But really I understand the idea behind Tau grimdarkness I just prefer 40k grim to the walls. Necrons marching
ancient silent black death instead of pirates of Caribbean in space, Space Marines psychopaths instead of epic heroes, Chaos vicious madmen instead of nuanced anarchist like everywhere else, the clash of factions so absurdly evil that you laugh reading it but still revel in the grim and dark mood.

The Tau thing is a good joke btw, just not good enough imo.

 Peregrine wrote:
And no, covering the Tau in skulls and the blood of slaughtered innocents wouldn't make them more grimdark, it would just make them stupid and annoying. It's the kind of superficial nonsense that appeals only to young kids who don't have the patience for anything more subtle.

Plumbumbarum wrote:If you look at my post it was intentionaly over the top and I didn't literaly mean skulls on Riptides but rather some darker designs and art instead of that sunny pictures and obvious malice instead of all those puny negotiating and propaganda to cover their little enslavement plan (if there really is a plan). It doesn't suit 40k, imo.

...though seeing Tau subtlety crowd getting fluffraped by Ward could be hilarious.

Superficial nonsense, well that's 40k in a nutshell. Again, the more subtle and serious the stories, the more apparent the inherent nonsense gets. There's a reason 40k does not pick up topics like love, social or political nuances, economy, gay rights etc, it's a background for a wargame and there is ONLY WAR and shooting black holes at the other guy. Majority of sf/ fantasy nowadays goes for subtle/ important/ meaningful, why can't this one be left ridiculous and senseless. That's obviously my understanding of 40k though, feel free to have yours.

btw what was it with light years long base full of Necrons? Subtle.

btw 2 only kids, good point.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Tau taint the hopelessness of 40k with their naive good, not to mention the everything grimdark grimdarkness was a joke in itself, well not anymore. They spoil the mood for me and I really hope Mat Ward will grab them at some point and make a story of Crisis suits kicking pregnant mothers and building bipods for rail guns out of skulls.

The problem here isn't the Tau, it's that you don't know the difference between "grimdark" and "parody of grimdark".

Apprently you don't get how something can be both.

 Peregrine wrote:
The Tau are incredibly grimdark. Think about it this way: in any other scifi setting the Tau would be the generic "expansionist evil empire", but in 40k they are the shining embodiment of hope and decency. Why? Because they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and accept a position of slavery before they kill you, while everyone else just kills everything that moves regardless of how much of a waste it is. Once you stop and think about the Tau ideology you immediately realize that "the greater good" is nothing more than propaganda in the glorious tradition of "manifest destiny" (complete with genociding anyone that stands in the way of progress), the US delivering "freedom" at gunpoint to anyone who happens to have some oil that we want, etc. The galaxy will be ruled by the Tau, and everyone else will submit or die. And, again, this is the best possible fate for you in 40k.

Too subtle, can't comprehend. But really I understand the idea behind Tau grimdarkness I just prefer 40k grim to the walls. Necrons marching
ancient silent black death instead of pirates of Caribbean in space, Space Marines psychopaths instead of epic heroes, Chaos vicious madmen instead of nuanced anarchist like everywhere else, the clash of factions so absurdly evil that you laugh reading it but still revel in the grim and dark mood.

The Tau thing is a good joke btw, just not good enough imo.

 Peregrine wrote:
And no, covering the Tau in skulls and the blood of slaughtered innocents wouldn't make them more grimdark, it would just make them stupid and annoying. It's the kind of superficial nonsense that appeals only to young kids who don't have the patience for anything more subtle.

Plumbumbarum wrote:If you look at my post it was intentionaly over the top and I didn't literaly mean skulls on Riptides but rather some darker designs and art instead of that sunny pictures and obvious malice instead of all those puny negotiating and propaganda to cover their little enslavement plan (if there really is a plan). It doesn't suit 40k, imo.

...though seeing Tau subtlety crowd getting fluffraped by Ward could be hilarious.

Superficial nonsense, well that's 40k in a nutshell. Again, the more subtle and serious the stories, the more apparent the inherent nonsense gets. There's a reason 40k does not pick up topics like love, social or political nuances, economy, gay rights etc, it's a background for a wargame and there is ONLY WAR and shooting black holes at the other guy. Majority of sf/ fantasy nowadays goes for subtle/ important/ meaningful, why can't this one be left ridiculous and senseless. That's obviously my understanding of 40k though, feel free to have yours.

btw what was it with light years long base full of Necrons? Subtle.

btw 2 only kids, good point.

Maybe, just maybe, not everyone thinks like you. And maybe Tau are for people that think differently than you. I know it may be shocking, but it could be true.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, not everyone thinks like you. And maybe Tau are for people that think differently than you. I know it may be shocking, but it could be true.

I don't know why would you put it like that, I think I made it clear that it is all in my opinion only. Not only that, I also accepted some time ago that I may be right only about what 40k was at best because now it is clearly becoming more fantasyish, epic and indeed, more subtle. It's GWs game after all, they decide. It's only claims like Tyranids should be removed before Tau bring out the best in me.

my opinion obviously but I like the whole TAU race and what it stands for. For the greater good just works for me. Its simple and clear for one to achieve anything in life just by abiding to this policy. Its the reason in real life we cant progress past a certain point. We live on this planet with too many distractions leading us away from the truth and keeping us at war with one another. Multiple religions, race, colour of skin is enough to keep that divide and conquer settlement in action and with something to unite us once and for all together we will stay as limited as we are. Maybe that's our masters real goal? To keep us at bay for their own demise?

Anyways, TAU get full points for being a full united front with the actual belief that what they are doing is for the greater good. Good luck to them and their campaigns. I for one am a Blood Angel diehard fan and wont ever leave their side. Even though they have their human souls tested each day with loyalty and belief. Much like in real day life I guess.

Just my thoughts

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

I'll assume you're talking to me?... Uh what's wrong with me? I don't know? I guess I don't play against power gaming WAAC Tau players that spam riptides I suppose.The games we play are typically reasonable and not spammy.

And this is the problem.

Whilst I admire people who don't aim or seek to abuse the rules just to win a game (my FLGS is the same), the fact is, we are on a Wargaming Forum, and Dakka.

And on Dakka we have to compare the most hardcore list and compare it competitively, because we have to as casually we cannot compare anything to anything apparently.

And this is the reason why Tau get so much hate is because of how much people are willing to abuse the rules a set of poorly written rules and create abusive lists with Tau, just to win a game of toy soldiers.

This is why Tau get so much hate.

I read 1984, think it is over - advertised imo but that's a different topic. I also lived under communist government for a bit and it's all still lively around here.

The reason why I mention 1984 is just to give you an impression of the kind of evil that can be had with just a little bit of subtlety. The government depicted in 1984 is scary as hell and absolutely evil, and it is far nastier than your generic "communist" government, especially because that term covers everything from Castro's Cuba to Stalin's USSR. I am fairly certain spending some time in China does not equate to living under the government depicted in 1984. The whole point is that it is possible to conceive of horrible, evil things without having to resort to blood soaked axe murderers.

It's not that I don't like subtlety, I just don't see the need for it in 40k. All I need from fluff and art is provide me a mood for battle, I love the background visualy but I think it is rather silly and does not need a high literature kind of depth, that only makes the silly parts stand out more. I appreciate the in your face crazy rotten armies or mumbling killer fanatics of 40k and think Tau would only benefit from proper grimdark treament. If you look at my post it was intentionaly over the top and I didn't literaly mean skulls on Riptides but rather some darker designs and art instead of that sunny pictures and obvious malice instead of all those puny negotiating and propaganda to cover their little enslavement plan (if there really is a plan). It doesn't suit 40k, imo.

But there is nothing sunny about the Tau, they are showing up in battle with hi-tech weaponry and weapon platforms with the intent on surgically disassembling and annihilating the enemy. I fail to understand what is not grimdark about this.

Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

btw I like some models now, broadsides, firewarriors I just don't like the faces of Tau and Kroot, the former look bland and and remind me of admiral Ackbar (and I hate Star Wars) after a few punches and the latter look like something out of Warcraft also both are characterless races look wise. For me ofc

Personally a love both models and find the Kroot with their avian carnivore theme and the little chunks of meat they carry around on hooks attached to their body (no seriously) some of the most characterful models in the game. And with over half of the armies in the game being either human or human like(Eldar, Dark Eldar) having an army composed of things that look like actual aliens is always a plus. But as they say, there really is no accounting for taste.

Peregrine wrote:
The Tau are incredibly grimdark. Think about it this way: in any other scifi setting the Tau would be the generic "expansionist evil empire", but in 40k they are the shining embodiment of hope and decency. Why? Because they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and accept a position of slavery before they kill you, while everyone else just kills everything that moves regardless of how much of a waste it is. Once you stop and think about the Tau ideology you immediately realize that "the greater good" is nothing more than propaganda in the glorious tradition of "manifest destiny" (complete with genociding anyone that stands in the way of progress), the US delivering "freedom" at gunpoint to anyone who happens to have some oil that we want, etc. The galaxy will be ruled by the Tau, and everyone else will submit or die. And, again, this is the best possible fate for you in 40k.


Too subtle, can't comprehend.

But it is not that subtle. They are a race who gives you the two options: join us or die, which is pretty straightforward. They just make an effort to conceal the fact, which again is just a sensible thing to do if you want an advantage against the people you are going to kill or enslave. I fail to understand how somebody who shows up a says they come in piece, but kill anyway, are too subtle to comprehend. They are just lying, it is not some sort of incomprehensible mystery.

 happygolucky wrote:

And this is the reason why Tau get so much hate is because of how much people are willing to abuse the rules a set of poorly written rules and create abusive lists with Tau, just to win a game of toy soldiers.

This is why Tau get so much hate.

Excuse me, but I must have misread something. See, my codex states that I can choose up to three elites in a single FOC with no mention or repeating units. I only have three options. Why am I the bad guy for choosing three units that I'm perfectly allowed to field?

The reason why I mention 1984 is just to give you an impression of the kind of evil that can be had with just a little bit of subtlety. The government depicted in 1984 is scary as hell and absolutely evil, and it is far nastier than your generic "communist" government, especially because that term covers everything from Castro's Cuba to Stalin's USSR. I am fairly certain spending some time in China does not equate to living under the government depicted in 1984.

Dude what the hell do you know about living under communist rule ? Want some examples of stuff from my family here are some .

When my mother was born , my grandfather was so happy that he got drunk on that day . Next day he woke up and went to work not going back home , only buying stuff in a specialy party store [hint: If he tried to buy anything in a normal store there would be nothing there and alkohol was sold from 10 and you were lucky if there was a store at all anywhere near . There were placed where 20-30k people had no store within 1hour trip] . When he entered he said that this is a wonderful day , and that he brought sweets and alkohol for everyone . What he didn't know was that that night radio said that Stalin died . 1 hour later my grandfather got taken by the militia , severly beaten , taken to a judge and send to 2 years in prison , out of which he spent 1 your in a labor camp .

Another one .
My fathers brother went to a pilot military school , there weren't any non military ones anyway . A guy who lived in the same room as him and 4 other dudes , had family in Sweden and tried to escape . He got caught and shot while trying . The MPs came and arested my uncle and the people that were in the room. now this was post 1956 and my fathers family changed their last name to less jewish sounding ones . But of course the MP had papers on how they were called before the war . This made my uncle an untrustworthy citizent . After 4 months in custody he and the other guys were let out of prison , only my uncle was kicked out of school and given the so called wolf ticket . With that he couldn't study at any university , couldn't find any job in the public sector . For two years he was trying to get work in private sector , but each time people from the Bezpika came and he ended up without a job . in 1962 he left for Israel . He was forbiden from taking more stuff then he could carry with him , he lost his home to the state . Ah and when my uncle was in custody , the first 2 months his family wasn't informed where he is , if he is alive etc. My grand father had to give a huge bribe to get info in which prison he was held . And of course when he came there asking for him , they said that my uncle wasn't there the few first time . Even when my grandfather had a court verdict that allowed a lawyer to see [not talk] to my uncle they just beat my grandfather and the lawyer up , calling them nasty names.

Yet another one , this time with my oldest brother.
My brother was born in 1980 a few months before commnists decleared the state of war in Poland. He got sick in 1981 and my grandfather again paid a bribe to get medicin for him . He made it in to Warsaw , which wasn't easy he had to pay even more in bribes to get a special pass and even more to the soldiers who didn't care about passes . My grandmother sold all her jewlery to pay for the trip ,but they didn't have money for the bribes needed to go back . At the same time the communists militerized all factories , TV, public transportation etc. If my grandfather wouldn't show up at work , it would be as if he deserted his work placed , Which was an 8 year in jail normaly , but technicly could lead to a death penelity if the judge decided that the act was done to "spite our country" . So my grandfather had no options . He had a legal pass , but still got stoped , went to jail for 10 months and because he had bad rolls in his car[to protect the medicin] , the militia thought that he was smuggling stuff . For 10 months he was beaten and interogated every day many times , he lost a kidney because of how he was beaten . Also in later life his eye sight got very poor , because for 10 months he wasn't getting any insulin for his diabetes.

This is just 3 stories and my family considered themselfs lucky and even rich . there were people who didn't have money to pay bribes and they weren't workers and some had the option to leave the country . Imagine you would have to live in a country for 10+ years and have no work and you can't leave , because your not jewish . Or when the avarge wait time to get a 30+ square meters home was 20+years .

Don't tell stories about communism when you don't know a thing about it .

That sounds absolutely horrible Makumba, and you have my sympathies. That being said, please do not accuse me of talking about living under communist rule when that was not what I was discussing. I was just pointing out how horrible the government in 1984 was and how the conditions under a number of different governments labeled as communist obviously vary between the governments. Sure there all pretty bad but I am fairly certain Stalin's USSR was worse than Castro's Cuba. Also, keep in mind this was a response to a poster whose comments, at least as I interpreted, seemed to indicate that communism just wasn't a very big deal, while I was trying to argue that which was depicted in 1984 (which appears to be modeled in no small part after the practices of communist and other totalitarian governments) were worse than a lot of the stuff depicted in 40k. Basically I was just describing how awful things are in the novel 1984, which I have read, so please pay attention to the context and direction of these threads before making these kinds of accusations.

The only thing I don't like about Tau is that they feel shoehorned into the series. Same with Necrons.

Evil Eldar have kind of always been around in one form or another. On the other hand, you've got Tau and Necrons that weren't around in RT and came post-3rd Edition. IMO if it wasn't in 40k 2nd edition, it feels out of place.

IMO if it wasn't in 40k 2nd edition, it feels out of place.

Unfortunately, if you limit everything to 2e then you can never really add new races. At best you could add things like new space marine factions, but those are among the most boring variations in race in this game. I vastly prefer having factions like Necrons and Tau to having factions like Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

I like variety.

Phanixis wrote:

I read 1984, think it is over - advertised imo but that's a different topic. I also lived under communist government for a bit and it's all still lively around here.

The reason why I mention 1984 is just to give you an impression of the kind of evil that can be had with just a little bit of subtlety. The government depicted in 1984 is scary as hell and absolutely evil, and it is far nastier than your generic "communist" government, especially because that term covers everything from Castro's Cuba to Stalin's USSR. I am fairly certain spending some time in China does not equate to living under the government depicted in 1984. The whole point is that it is possible to conceive of horrible, evil things without having to resort to blood soaked axe murderers.

Phanixis wrote:
Also, keep in mind this was a response to a poster whose comments, at least as I interpreted, seemed to indicate that communism just wasn't a very big deal, while I was trying to argue that which was depicted in 1984 (which appears to be modeled in no small part after the practices of communist and other totalitarian governments) were worse than a lot of the stuff depicted in 40k. Basically I was just describing how awful things are in the novel 1984, which I have read, so please pay attention to the context and direction of these threads before making these kinds of accusations.

You interpreted wrong, what I wanted to say is 1984 is just a story when my granfather actualy lived under Stalin. I was being too vague I guess, the point is barely anyone here needs education on how totalitarian regimes work.

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Well don't worry, because ATSKNF basically does nothing in 6th edition.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Yeah, no one ever complains about Marines or ATSKNF. Totally.

Ask marine players to play without the rule and see if it changes anything in the course of the game. I've played without it several times, and never really missed it.

We simply can't get rid of Tau in 40K, because then everyone who wants to be in the cool group by hating a faction would have to go back to hating the Ultramarines, and that's so "last year".

The Tau are only a problem because of 6th edition and the GW business practices therin. I would have faced them in 3rd-5th edition with no problems.

Wow, shocker.....I could repost this and simply change all mention of "Tau" to "Eldar" and it would still be right.

Martel732 wrote:
Ask marine players to play without the rule and see if it changes anything in the course of the game. I've played without it several times, and never really missed it.

I've had a couple of Xeno players REFUSE to let me do this. I think they were scared to see the result.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Please, tell me more. I'd love to hear it. Do tell.

What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Vanilla Marines have been the most balanced army in the game since 5th edition.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Allying with themselfs and mixing IH and WS chapter traits in the same army , without the need to buy a separate book . Other armies either can't ally with themselfs or have to buy a supplement codex to do it .

I'm pretty sure they can. And Born in the Saddle and Bolter Drill in the same army pales in comparison to ingnoring LOS, cover and totally neutralizing your opponents reserves for 15 points (5 per riptide). I think you'll have to do quite a bit better than that to make your point.

Sure there is no problem with having a IH eternal shield chapter master with IWND in a grav bike unit or command squad get all the WS traits , just because you bought an ally Khan or WS chapter master. Only a 24" movement on turn 1 , two tanks one of which is realy hard to kill and grav guns to kill MCs/meq/teq. And you don't have to buy a 50$ supplement book or another codex to do it .

The marine codex is so lack luster my BA have a winning record against it. Grav guns are meh compared to weapons Xenos already have.

My first army was Tau and I actually enjoyed their fluff, especially commander Farsight. However I simply did not like the way they played. I made the 6th ed codex my decision point as to if I would still play them or not, hoping that commander Farsight and his unique fire warriors would offer some versitility. But the new codex was only an op version of the first so I sold them.

To answer the main question Imo, I feel that people hate the Tau because it is painful to remove your models that you painstakenly painted and custumized of the table right after you put it on, then spend the rest of the time hiding the others behind cover.


Orks are my second and only team and I love playing them, no matter if I win or lose it is difficult for the other person to deny that they take tactics to play, of course not spaming bikers, dakka jets and lootas, and that my opponint always causes a good degree of orky death as well.

Makumba wrote:
Sure there is no problem with having a IH eternal shield chapter master with IWND in a grav bike unit or command squad get all the WS traits , just because you bought an ally Khan or WS chapter master. Only a 24" movement on turn 1 , two tanks one of which is realy hard to kill and grav guns to kill MCs/meq/teq. And you don't have to buy a 50$ supplement book or another codex to do it .

That doesn't override/conflict with the rules stated in the BRB. The crap that tau does in my above post does. You realize you CAN ally tau with tau, right? How else does one run quad riprides? Either way both Scars ans IH have the faults of every MEQ army and can't share chapter tactics. What you're proposing would cost on the order of 700+ points to run well. How much for 3 riptides and a unit of markerdrones? The tau dex is one big fat cheesewheel. The SM dex has sprinkles of shreddes cheddar here and there. Perhaps having to buy that second $50 book is the universe's way of saying "don't be a dick to your opponents".

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Some of these may be out of date:
Emperor's Champion.
AV14 LRs that are not reduced by Lances.
Do they still auto-rally at the table edge instead of running off?
... Oh and do they still arbitrarily count their clearly Open Top vehicles (Land Speeders and such) as non-Open Top? (To spite this rule I used to insist that my DE Raider full of Incubi was therefore also not Open Top... SM players didn't appreciate that. There sentiment is echoed throughout this thread. "Only SMs are allowed to ignore rules!")

Pretty sure the LR ignoring lances is a thing of the past, and you are seriously overvaluing landspeeders. SM can most definitely run off the board. None of what you mentioned impacts the game in a huge... or even marginally big way. Never played with the emperors champ, but I know he's a beast in CC and you get what you pay for. Some of those prayers are kinda ridiculous though.

A str 9 ap2 plate of death per riptide smokng a unit per blast coming in from reserves... for 5 pts, (aside from being the cheesiest goddamn thing I've ever experienced) effects the game in a huge way, as does missiles not needing LOS, and being able to negate any and all cover saves for your opponent(which is always invariably followed by a single markerlight buffing the taus BS by 2pts). Are you seeing how those have a more noticable impact than a landspeeder giving a weapon shooting it an additional +1 on the damage chart?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Don't think that really counts. That's like pointing out that imperial guard ignores established rules because flamers ignore cover, or because Commisar Lords are fearless. Drop Pods are a specific vehicle that you have to pay for to use, and you can only put certain units inside of them. It's not something you get for free, or that affects your whole army. Markerlights (though they aren't always free), benefit your entire army in a myriad of ways. Same with the Eldar's battle-focus, psuedo-rending etc.

 Archonate wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Some of these may be out of date:
Emperor's Champion.
AV14 LRs that are not reduced by Lances.
Do they still auto-rally at the table edge instead of running off?
... Oh and do they still arbitrarily count their clearly Open Top vehicles (Land Speeders and such) as non-Open Top? (To spite this rule I used to insist that my DE Raider full of Incubi was therefore also not Open Top... SM players didn't appreciate that. There sentiment is echoed throughout this thread. "Only SMs are allowed to ignore rules!")

The Incubi might be wearing power equivalent armour. The crew of the Raider most certainly is not.

Really I just think the complaints about Tau breaking the rules of the game revolve around the Riptide.

We had the ability to ignore cover last edition. Nobody complained about plasma rifles and railguns breaking the game. I don't think anyone would complain about them now.

The Riptide's AP2 gun seems to be what really gets people upset about the ignoring cover thing, which costs extra I might add. You can't ignore cover when firing it as an Interceptor, and it doesn't ignored LOS. The only weapon that ignores LOS is the SMS.

I think Tau wouldn't get as many complaints if they just swapped the Riptide and the Hammerhead's Ion cannons.

It has a lot to do with 6th edition. Tau's list of tricks haven't actually changed a whole lot, but the context of the game has changed. Tau are the best shooting army in an edition where shooting is everything. Tau can ignore cover en masse in an edition where cover is extremely important, especially for melee armies. Tau have anti-air out the ass in an edition where flyers are extremely popular and integral to a lot of army builds. Etc etc.

They're basically just tailor-made to be the kings of 6th edition.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Examples would be good.

Tau are hated in the competitive arena because they flat out ignore a chunk of the rules and on top of that they are under costed. The biggest offender is the buffmander, who keeps showing up in so many allied detachements. They are a focal point of the worst parts of 6th edition. Prior to their release it looked like 6th was set to be the most balanced edition, but then Tau came out, followed by Eldar, and now the monstrousity that is Escalation have turned the compettive environment on its head.

Tau just ignore too many rules, with too many good units, for too few points...

*Note: I say this having not yet lost to Tau but I have had some nail biters/draws against, honestly subpar players who just sat and shot at me as I struggled to out manuever them.

As mentioned SavageConvoy, I think the Tau of 6th edition are definitely different that of the earlier Tau codexes. They really are tailor-made for being kings of 6th edition, where that was not the case in 3rd-5th editions.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Archonate wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Some of these may be out of date:
Emperor's Champion.
AV14 LRs that are not reduced by Lances.
Do they still auto-rally at the table edge instead of running off?
... Oh and do they still arbitrarily count their clearly Open Top vehicles (Land Speeders and such) as non-Open Top? (To spite this rule I used to insist that my DE Raider full of Incubi was therefore also not Open Top... SM players didn't appreciate that. There sentiment is echoed throughout this thread. "Only SMs are allowed to ignore rules!")

The Incubi might be wearing power equivalent armour. The crew of the Raider most certainly is not.

But is power armour equivalent to light tank armour? not at all.

If anything is broken about Tau its the ignores cover, and just marker lights in general. Take two Sky Rays and a couple of Riptides, and your opponent will already have their hands full!

This Sunday, I played against Tau for the first time since 3rd edition. Black Templars in Purge the Alien. It hurt. The broadsides had so many shots, I thought maybe my opponent was playing them right, but I don't know their rules well enough (though I plan on fixing that soon). Despite losing 5-12 VP, I had fun and played well. I killed half of one Pathfinder squad and even managed to get a Jump Pack squad into assault with the infiltrated pathfinder squad on turn 1.

What irked me the most though, was the destructive power of Supporting Fire (the 6" Overwatch support, if I got the name right) from his Broadsides. I was denied two game critical combats because the squads were wiped out trying to make the charge. Only part that I found soul crushing to play against.

A side note I want to share, though not really part of the current topic, is the Tau player got really upset when my SM Captain and Command Squad started winning the last combat against Farsight, his squad, and a Riptide (that failed Combat Resolution Ld and jumped off the board!). VP had been tallied the whole game through, so we knew I had no chance at winning at this point, but he was still getting worked up. He didn't direct his anger at me, but he was swearing and starting to chuck dice when I was having my last hurrah before getting tabled (no other models left after that squad). Really put me off to playing against Tau (not their fault) and him again.

 gardeth wrote:
Tau are hated in the competitive arena because they flat out ignore a chunk of the rules and on top of that they are under costed. The biggest offender is the buffmander, who keeps showing up in so many allied detachements. They are a focal point of the worst parts of 6th edition. Prior to their release it looked like 6th was set to be the most balanced edition, but then Tau came out, followed by Eldar, and now the monstrousity that is Escalation have turned the compettive environment on its head.

Tau just ignore too many rules, with too many good units, for too few points...

*Note: I say this having not yet lost to Tau but I have had some nail biters/draws against, honestly subpar players who just sat and shot at me as I struggled to out manuever them.

All that adds up to an army that allows its player to perform well above his skill level. Or decent players taking so easy they are playing games on their phones while you try in vein to use your tactical experience to gain the upper hand. In the end though it doesn't matter because that outflanking CC unit just got toasted by a riptide as did your DS units, that cover you were joyous to get to means feth-all, your drop pods and flyers got shot out of the sky and you're left wondering how in the hell the Tau CODEX rofkstomped your game plan while the player was just rolling dice and playing angry birds.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Archonate wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Some of these may be out of date:
Emperor's Champion.
AV14 LRs that are not reduced by Lances.
Do they still auto-rally at the table edge instead of running off?
... Oh and do they still arbitrarily count their clearly Open Top vehicles (Land Speeders and such) as non-Open Top? (To spite this rule I used to insist that my DE Raider full of Incubi was therefore also not Open Top... SM players didn't appreciate that. There sentiment is echoed throughout this thread. "Only SMs are allowed to ignore rules!")

The Incubi might be wearing power equivalent armour. The crew of the Raider most certainly is not.

But is power armour equivalent to light tank armour? not at all.

It takes a krak missile to get through power armour, but you can bring down a Land Speeder (or a Raider) with bolters. That sounds like light tank armour to me.

vehicle armor is closer to toughness than to an armor save.

Lol, it used to be toughness in Rogue Trader!

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Please, tell me more. I'd love to hear it. Do tell.

I would, but you keep crying about Tau so much I feel like I can't get a word in between the tears.

I had some alcohol in me the other night, got pissed that there was yet another Tau bashing thread, and decided antagonizing Marine fanboys would be a good idea for some reason. Then I forgot I posted, came back, and saw a bunch of people jumping on my ass and didn't quite know how to respond. Not only that but most of the examples I would have given already were, and were already shot down, so I really don't see the point in continuing on with that line of discussion anymore, especially since I don't think it would change anyone's mind even if I did have damning proof that Marines are bullgak, so I'm just going to say I was being a hyperbolising douche and move on...

Except not really because I'm going to keep being a hyperbolising douche in the text wall below.

Martel732 wrote:
The marine codex is so lack luster my BA have a winning record against it. Grav guns are meh compared to weapons Xenos already have.

And my brother's Blood Angel army has a winning record against my Tau. He also won our first and only game in 6th edition using his CSM, against my new codex (no riptides or heldrakes).

Therefore Tau are actually terrible.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I feel that people hate the Tau because it is painful to remove your models that you painstakenly painted and custumized of the table right after you put it on, then spend the rest of the time hiding the others behind cover.

But if it's my models getting pulled off the table without me being able to do anything about it (from being assaulted), it's okay.

If there's any reason at all why Tau just "don't work", it's that: they were designed to shoot all day and do literally nothing else. GW doesn't even want Tau armies to move around anymore, just castle up and shoot gak coming towards you. Even Kroot, who were really gakky for an "assault" unit, got CC nerfs and were given sniper rounds so that all they can even think about doing anymore is shooting. It pisses me off, because I really kinda like that about them, and it makes them different from almost every other army, but it's precisely the reason why Tau are "no fun" to play with or against. Either you're bending your opponent over the table and he's sullenly pulling models off before he gets to do anything, or the Tau player trips up and then he's the one taking all his models off the table without being able to do anything...which admittedly is a lot harder to do now without intentionally taking bad lists and playing like an idiot, but still.

 gardeth wrote:
Prior to their release it looked like 6th was set to be the most balanced edition, but then Tau came out, followed by Eldar, and now the monstrousity that is Escalation have turned the compettive environment on its head.

Really? "The most balanced edition"? I could have told you 6th would be broken as feth when allies and double FOC were first rumored. In fact I think I did, I remember suggesting that allies would break the game and only encourage the min/maxing that everyone hates so much (and it did!). And being able to spam twice as much broken gak needs no explanation. And I don't think anyone could have predicted titans and super heavies showing up in regular games.

Hell, the very first codex had the heldrake in it, and the same gakky internal balance and bad game design that the old codex had. Right out the gate GW started putting out crappy copy/paste codexes that had almost none of the changes people actually wanted to see, and were either god-awful or had one or two overpowered units/builds in them. I don't know how in the world anyone could have thought 6th edition would be balanced but I'm telling you, it's not, it never was, and it's not Tau's fault, either.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
That doesn't override/conflict with the rules stated in the BRB. The crap that tau does in my above post does.

How does paying points to give a unit Interceptor "override/conflict with the rules stated in the BRB"? That right there is a good example of what I'm talking about, things like drop pods, open top speeders that somehow aren't open top, and ATSKNF "override" core rules but it's okay because you supposedly pay points to do that. But when Tau do it, this thread happens.

The only thing you can possibly argue is that EWO is underpriced for what it does, and I'd actually agree with you, it really is. Much like the Disruption Pod before it, it's way too good for a 5 point upgrade (typical GW, "fix" one thing and break something else). I still think it should exist, because I don't think there's anything at all broken about the ability to pay points to give a unit Interceptor, but maybe bumping it up to 10-15 would be more "fair". Raging about Tau being a giant cheesewheel because they can pay points to ignore the BRB when literally every army does that in some capacity, however, is just being stupid.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
You realize you CAN ally tau with tau, right? How else does one run quad riprides?

The argument was that Tau have to purchase a separate $50 supplement to do so. No one said it wasn't possible, just that Space Marines were the only army currently that had permission to ally with itself in the parent codex.

Also, I think you'll find that most people, even Tau players, will probably agree that the Farsight supplement being able to ally with Tau Empire is kinda stupid and shouldn't have happened, and obviously only did because it lets GW sell more riptides. Same with the firebase support cadre. I don't even see why they needed a broken formation to sell that set but I guess that's why I don't have a successful business.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Either way both Scars ans IH have the faults of every MEQ army and can't share chapter tactics. What you're proposing would cost on the order of 700+ points to run well. How much for 3 riptides and a unit of markerdrones?

Actually, if I'm not mistaken it would be similar in cost. Maybe not quite that high, but three riptides alone, all outfitted with EWO and ion accelerators, would be about 600 points. I'm not saying that makes them any more balanced, but they are expensive.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
The tau dex is one big fat cheesewheel. The SM dex has sprinkles of shreddes cheddar here and there. Perhaps having to buy that second $50 book is the universe's way of saying "don't be a dick to your opponents".

Just to clarify, playing your army the way it was written = "being a dick", apparently.

In this context the only way to not be a dick to your opponents is to either purposely lose or just don't play Tau. Neither of which are exactly fair for the Tau player.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
A str 9 ap2 plate of death per riptide smokng a unit per blast coming in from reserves... for 5 pts, (aside from being the cheesiest goddamn thing I've ever experienced) effects the game in a huge way, as does missiles not needing LOS, and being able to negate any and all cover saves for your opponent(which is always invariably followed by a single markerlight buffing the taus BS by 2pts). Are you seeing how those have a more noticable impact than a landspeeder giving a weapon shooting it an additional +1 on the damage chart?

Not really, no. Mainly because I've played Tau since late 4th and most of the things you mentioned they were already capable of doing. SMS never needed LOS and as far as I know is still the same as it was before. Markerlights were already capable of removing cover and boosting BS (one counter = -1 cover save, and it was cumulative...arguably a lot more balanced than it is now and even other Tau players will agree with me on that one). And Tau were one of the bottom tier armies all through 5th. The only thing new, and once again what seems to be causing the most bitching, is the fething riptide, but no, that can't possibly be the problem! Even though nothing else in the army is spitting a S9 AP2 pie plate at your reserves, which seems to be above all else what has gotten your goat...

It's the riptide. Like it's been said over and over again already, get rid of the riptide and you'll go a long way towards "fixing" Tau just with that one change. But as far as I'm personally concerned, you'll get even better results if you just fix 6th edition, because:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Tau's list of tricks haven't actually changed a whole lot, but the context of the game has changed. Tau are the best shooting army in an edition where shooting is everything.

6th edition is broken, end of story. No one army is to blame for it, it's all GW.

Absolutely. The Riptide is the Tau "Wave Serpent" (although the Wave Sperpent is a case of GW taking a unit that was thought to be too powerful for it's points by many, and then simply making it even better. The Riptide, among other new things in the army, get's the distinction of raising a low-tier army to the top right out of the gate.)

Basically it seems like 6th edition is what made Tau what they are, because everything people hate about them (mechanically) can be listed as "all the new codex changes to make tau uber-shooty", plus "Aegis Defence lines". In other words, 6th edition overpowered them.

Before, if Tau wanted to mitigate their assault deficiencies, they had to pull guns off the line to invest in things like Kroot. But then Kroot suddenly became a shooting unit. Whu?

In previous editions, Tau were the army you got chuckled at if you played.

Older Tau players would point out Kroot have always been a sort of shooting unit. Even before they lost 1strength they were a terriple cc unit, with the same bs as firewarriors with a much lower points cost and the ability to come in a muc larger unit. Being able to perform as a big tarpit doesn't exclude them from being used as shooting units when they're not blocking someone's charge.

 Sidstyler wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Please, tell me more. I'd love to hear it. Do tell.

I would, but you keep crying about Tau so much I feel like I can't get a word in between the tears.

I had some alcohol in me the other night, got pissed that there was yet another Tau bashing thread, and decided antagonizing Marine fanboys would be a good idea for some reason. Then I forgot I posted, came back, and saw a bunch of people jumping on my ass and didn't quite know how to respond. Not only that but most of the examples I would have given already were, and were already shot down, so I really don't see the point in continuing on with that line of discussion anymore, especially since I don't think it would change anyone's mind even if I did have damning proof that Marines are bullgak, so I'm just going to say I was being a hyperbolising douche and move on...

Except not really because I'm going to keep being a hyperbolising douche in the text wall below.

Martel732 wrote:
The marine codex is so lack luster my BA have a winning record against it. Grav guns are meh compared to weapons Xenos already have.

And my brother's Blood Angel army has a winning record against my Tau. He also won our first and only game in 6th edition using his CSM, against my new codex (no riptides or heldrakes).

Therefore Tau are actually terrible.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I feel that people hate the Tau because it is painful to remove your models that you painstakenly painted and custumized of the table right after you put it on, then spend the rest of the time hiding the others behind cover.

But if it's my models getting pulled off the table without me being able to do anything about it (from being assaulted), it's okay.

If there's any reason at all why Tau just "don't work", it's that: they were designed to shoot all day and do literally nothing else. GW doesn't even want Tau armies to move around anymore, just castle up and shoot gak coming towards you. Even Kroot, who were really gakky for an "assault" unit, got CC nerfs and were given sniper rounds so that all they can even think about doing anymore is shooting. It pisses me off, because I really kinda like that about them, and it makes them different from almost every other army, but it's precisely the reason why Tau are "no fun" to play with or against. Either you're bending your opponent over the table and he's sullenly pulling models off before he gets to do anything, or the Tau player trips up and then he's the one taking all his models off the table without being able to do anything...which admittedly is a lot harder to do now without intentionally taking bad lists and playing like an idiot, but still.

 gardeth wrote:
Prior to their release it looked like 6th was set to be the most balanced edition, but then Tau came out, followed by Eldar, and now the monstrousity that is Escalation have turned the compettive environment on its head.

Really? "The most balanced edition"? I could have told you 6th would be broken as feth when allies and double FOC were first rumored. In fact I think I did, I remember suggesting that allies would break the game and only encourage the min/maxing that everyone hates so much (and it did!). And being able to spam twice as much broken gak needs no explanation. And I don't think anyone could have predicted titans and super heavies showing up in regular games.

Hell, the very first codex had the heldrake in it, and the same gakky internal balance and bad game design that the old codex had. Right out the gate GW started putting out crappy copy/paste codexes that had almost none of the changes people actually wanted to see, and were either god-awful or had one or two overpowered units/builds in them. I don't know how in the world anyone could have thought 6th edition would be balanced but I'm telling you, it's not, it never was, and it's not Tau's fault, either.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
That doesn't override/conflict with the rules stated in the BRB. The crap that tau does in my above post does.

How does paying points to give a unit Interceptor "override/conflict with the rules stated in the BRB"? That right there is a good example of what I'm talking about, things like drop pods, open top speeders that somehow aren't open top, and ATSKNF "override" core rules but it's okay because you supposedly pay points to do that. But when Tau do it, this thread happens.

The only thing you can possibly argue is that EWO is underpriced for what it does, and I'd actually agree with you, it really is. Much like the Disruption Pod before it, it's way too good for a 5 point upgrade (typical GW, "fix" one thing and break something else). I still think it should exist, because I don't think there's anything at all broken about the ability to pay points to give a unit Interceptor, but maybe bumping it up to 10-15 would be more "fair". Raging about Tau being a giant cheesewheel because they can pay points to ignore the BRB when literally every army does that in some capacity, however, is just being stupid.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
You realize you CAN ally tau with tau, right? How else does one run quad riprides?

The argument was that Tau have to purchase a separate $50 supplement to do so. No one said it wasn't possible, just that Space Marines were the only army currently that had permission to ally with itself in the parent codex.

Also, I think you'll find that most people, even Tau players, will probably agree that the Farsight supplement being able to ally with Tau Empire is kinda stupid and shouldn't have happened, and obviously only did because it lets GW sell more riptides. Same with the firebase support cadre. I don't even see why they needed a broken formation to sell that set but I guess that's why I don't have a successful business.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Either way both Scars ans IH have the faults of every MEQ army and can't share chapter tactics. What you're proposing would cost on the order of 700+ points to run well. How much for 3 riptides and a unit of markerdrones?

Actually, if I'm not mistaken it would be similar in cost. Maybe not quite that high, but three riptides alone, all outfitted with EWO and ion accelerators, would be about 600 points. I'm not saying that makes them any more balanced, but they are expensive.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
The tau dex is one big fat cheesewheel. The SM dex has sprinkles of shreddes cheddar here and there. Perhaps having to buy that second $50 book is the universe's way of saying "don't be a dick to your opponents".

Just to clarify, playing your army the way it was written = "being a dick", apparently.

In this context the only way to not be a dick to your opponents is to either purposely lose or just don't play Tau. Neither of which are exactly fair for the Tau player.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
A str 9 ap2 plate of death per riptide smokng a unit per blast coming in from reserves... for 5 pts, (aside from being the cheesiest goddamn thing I've ever experienced) effects the game in a huge way, as does missiles not needing LOS, and being able to negate any and all cover saves for your opponent(which is always invariably followed by a single markerlight buffing the taus BS by 2pts). Are you seeing how those have a more noticable impact than a landspeeder giving a weapon shooting it an additional +1 on the damage chart?

Not really, no. Mainly because I've played Tau since late 4th and most of the things you mentioned they were already capable of doing. SMS never needed LOS and as far as I know is still the same as it was before. Markerlights were already capable of removing cover and boosting BS (one counter = -1 cover save, and it was cumulative...arguably a lot more balanced than it is now and even other Tau players will agree with me on that one). And Tau were one of the bottom tier armies all through 5th. The only thing new, and once again what seems to be causing the most bitching, is the fething riptide, but no, that can't possibly be the problem! Even though nothing else in the army is spitting a S9 AP2 pie plate at your reserves, which seems to be above all else what has gotten your goat...

It's the riptide. Like it's been said over and over again already, get rid of the riptide and you'll go a long way towards "fixing" Tau just with that one change. But as far as I'm personally concerned, you'll get even better results if you just fix 6th edition, because:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Tau's list of tricks haven't actually changed a whole lot, but the context of the game has changed. Tau are the best shooting army in an edition where shooting is everything.

6th edition is broken, end of story. No one army is to blame for it, it's all GW.

If you can't see the difference in how 6thed markerlights negatively impact the game as opposed to non-open topped landspeeders and ATSKNF, the, single most overrated army trait in the game, then the problem is with your perception, not mine.

As for the rest of it, you're basically saying;
- I've got nothing, no way to drive my original argument home because I was drunk and trolling.
- Yes, I know tau can, and do perpetrate some really broken, cheesy gak BUT
- Its okay because they were a hot mess in previous editions


The prosecution rests.

 Sidstyler wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Please, tell me more. I'd love to hear it. Do tell.

I would, but you keep crying about Tau so much I feel like I can't get a word in between the tears.

I had some alcohol in me the other night, got pissed that there was yet another Tau bashing thread, and decided antagonizing Marine fanboys would be a good idea for some reason. Then I forgot I posted, came back, and saw a bunch of people jumping on my ass and didn't quite know how to respond. Not only that but most of the examples I would have given already were, and were already shot down, so I really don't see the point in continuing on with that line of discussion anymore, especially since I don't think it would change anyone's mind even if I did have damning proof that Marines are bullgak, so I'm just going to say I was being a hyperbolising douche and move on...

Except not really because I'm going to keep being a hyperbolising douche in the text wall below.

Heh, that made me chuckle. Have an exalt.

"And my brother's Blood Angel army has a winning record against my Tau. He also won our first and only game in 6th edition using his CSM, against my new codex (no riptides or heldrakes).

Therefore Tau are actually terrible. "

You're doing something wrong, then. I've army swapped with Tau, and BA are an easy, easy out. Although, for honest disclosure, I've won every army swap with BA. And all but one with C:SM. Marines are very vulnerable this edition.

To make the Tau "work"? Of the top of my head:

- Fix the Ally matrix (´Not just for the Tau but everybody. BB as the "default" is causing too many problems. )
- EWO should cost a minimum of 15 points, possibly 20. Flakk missiles ( Skyfire ) are 10 points/model and they are garbage.
Access to Interceptor is infinitely more useful and should be costed accordingly.
- Riptide should be a Vehicle ( Walker ). Anything that has a sentient/living pilot inside should be. AV 13/12/10 and
HP4 and possibly and integral Invulnerable Save would have been perfectly reasonable.

Or give Riptide 3+ save. Make it vulnerable to krak missiles and poison ammo.

What my main problem with Tau is that they have an answer for almost everything that could inconvenience their opponent.

Is it night fight the first turn? Well then good luck hurting any tau vehicle with disruption pods and their godly cover saves. Oh and at least youll get cover... Oh wait almost everything has black sun filters and they still have markerlights to strip cover on top of that.

Disruption Pods are dirt cheap and are free cover saves for every vehicle they have making them very survivable.

Also if they take a Hammerhead they are almost assuredly going to upgrade it with the named character tank ace. It gives you BS 5 and tank hunter on a STR 10 AP 1 gun which almost guarantees a tank kill every turn.

Tau have some of the best shooting units in the game I think we can all agree here. How do you normally counter good shooting? By staying in cover? Well too bad marker lights and SMS are here to mess up your day. Well you can try deep striking except for the plethora of units that have interceptor(namely riptides which land a pie plate on some nicely clustered terminators and laugh as they all die).

Riptides are a MC with amazing shooting options. How do you usually counter an amazing shooting unit? Shoot it back? Well its got a 2+ T6 and 5++ and it can have FNP to boot. Not to mention when it opts for 3++. To say the least its an undercosted model that is almost auto include on any tau army. It really should have an armor value instead of a toughness...

Well at least Tau suck in CC right? Yes the avg unit does suck in CC. Your only problem is getting there remotely intact. Its very hard to get close to tau without getting shot to pieces and to top it off when you do get the chance to charge all that supporting fire just drowns you in shots. Not to mention broadsides can get a nice boost to let them hit on a 5+ and they already have a boat load of shots.

All this combines to make a very powerful army that requires little thinking and lots of dice rolling... Not that fun to play against...

yeah it would be more fun to play against , if it didn't have all those things and marines could just drop down in pods , ride up in rhinos , like they did in 5th , and probably 4th ed too , and melee the tau to death ,while rolling a lot dice without much thinking . Yeah that would make the game much better.

I play IG , tau do everything I could want IG to do , but better . But what tau do is good , nothing worse then another edition of razorbacks vs razorback vs psychich razorbacks .

tedbpb wrote:
What my main problem with Tau is that they have an answer for almost everything that could inconvenience their opponent.

Is it night fight the first turn? Well then good luck hurting any tau vehicle with disruption pods and their godly cover saves. Oh and at least youll get cover... Oh wait almost everything has black sun filters and they still have markerlights to strip cover on top of that.

Disruption Pods are dirt cheap and are free cover saves for every vehicle they have making them very survivable.

Also if they take a Hammerhead they are almost assuredly going to upgrade it with the named character tank ace. It gives you BS 5 and tank hunter on a STR 10 AP 1 gun which almost guarantees a tank kill every turn.

Tau have some of the best shooting units in the game I think we can all agree here. How do you normally counter good shooting? By staying in cover? Well too bad marker lights and SMS are here to mess up your day. Well you can try deep striking except for the plethora of units that have interceptor(namely riptides which land a pie plate on some nicely clustered terminators and laugh as they all die).

Riptides are a MC with amazing shooting options. How do you usually counter an amazing shooting unit? Shoot it back? Well its got a 2+ T6 and 5++ and it can have FNP to boot. Not to mention when it opts for 3++. To say the least its an undercosted model that is almost auto include on any tau army. It really should have an armor value instead of a toughness...

Well at least Tau suck in CC right? Yes the avg unit does suck in CC. Your only problem is getting there remotely intact. Its very hard to get close to tau without getting shot to pieces and to top it off when you do get the chance to charge all that supporting fire just drowns you in shots. Not to mention broadsides can get a nice boost to let them hit on a 5+ and they already have a boat load of shots.

All this combines to make a very powerful army that requires little thinking and lots of dice rolling... Not that fun to play against...

100% on the money. Exalted. I don't get why so many airheads assume its only a marine problem. I can't see how any army can enjoy playing tau. They out range and outshoot IG and Eldar, they have zero reason to fear flyers or deepstriking units and they laugh while demons, DE, orks and nids try to make it into CC.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

And this is the reason why Tau get so much hate is because of how much people are willing to abuse the rules a set of poorly written rules and create abusive lists with Tau, just to win a game of toy soldiers.

This is why Tau get so much hate.

Excuse me, but I must have misread something. See, my codex states that I can choose up to three elites in a single FOC with no mention or repeating units. I only have three options. Why am I the bad guy for choosing three units that I'm perfectly allowed to field?

There's an old saying...

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should..

This applies to all armies not just Tau its just Tau is the subject of the topic, so it applies in this context.

Its the same with triple Helldrakes, Tau-Dar, etc, etc,

It would be nice to see a variety of armies than just "Netlist X, Y and Z" in tourneys, but alas because people just like to hit the "Insta-win" button.

Exactly. the same argument could be made for "Why shouldn't I field virus grenades?" in 2nd edition- something universally known by anyone who played back then to be the epitome of horrible game balance.


The Tau are complete bastards in 6th edition because, well, GW.

I think the more appropriate saying would be

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

It's not my job to make the game fair and balanced. I'm a player. My part is to use the army I have to make the best TAC list I can make.

 Archonate wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Some of these may be out of date:
Emperor's Champion.
AV14 LRs that are not reduced by Lances.
Do they still auto-rally at the table edge instead of running off?
... Oh and do they still arbitrarily count their clearly Open Top vehicles (Land Speeders and such) as non-Open Top? (To spite this rule I used to insist that my DE Raider full of Incubi was therefore also not Open Top... SM players didn't appreciate that. There sentiment is echoed throughout this thread. "Only SMs are allowed to ignore rules!")

EC has always been a pretty underwhelming guy in his own right (I find 2 wounds don't really get you very far, especially as a hero slayer), and while his vows were pretty good, at the time they were written, they only allowed re-rolls of To Hit in assault, which was sort of a compensation for having no Devs or Whirlwinds in the codex (funny that, marines who love to duel being proficient at the very thing ).

Blessed Hull was good its true... but it was also a 50pt upgrade for BT LRC's only. Very specific and costly, for something which would only come in hand in a scarce few situations).

As for the auto-rally at table edges and the LS stuff, I don't recall that sort of thing ever being the case (not sure though).

Makumba wrote:
yeah it would be more fun to play against , if it didn't have all those things and marines could just drop down in pods , ride up in rhinos , like they did in 5th , and probably 4th ed too , and melee the tau to death ,while rolling a lot dice without much thinking . Yeah that would make the game much better.

I play IG , tau do everything I could want IG to do , but better . But what tau do is good , nothing worse then another edition of razorbacks vs razorback vs psychich razorbacks .

I play IG as well and your right Tau do everything that IG do but better and cheaper(like pask vs tau tank commander). I think my biggest complaint is that markerlights are so easily able to remove cover from units. Not getting cover saves is really painful against a primarily shooting army(especially one that can throw out so many ap 2 pie plates). Wouldnt be so bad if I could get cover at least...

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I think the more appropriate saying would be

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

It's not my job to make the game fair and balanced. I'm a player. My part is to use the army I have to make the best TAC list I can make.

Well, no, it's to play an enjoyable game. Slight distinction there. Doesn't necessarily preclude making the "best list", or mean fielding a list that's fair/fluffy/well-painted/enjoyable to play against, but I feel it's important enough to be said.

tedbpb wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah it would be more fun to play against , if it didn't have all those things and marines could just drop down in pods , ride up in rhinos , like they did in 5th , and probably 4th ed too , and melee the tau to death ,while rolling a lot dice without much thinking . Yeah that would make the game much better.

I play IG , tau do everything I could want IG to do , but better . But what tau do is good , nothing worse then another edition of razorbacks vs razorback vs psychich razorbacks .

I play IG as well and your right Tau do everything that IG do but better and cheaper(like pask vs tau tank commander). I think my biggest complaint is that markerlights are so easily able to remove cover from units. Not getting cover saves is really painful against a primarily shooting army(especially one that can throw out so many ap 2 pie plates). Wouldnt be so bad if I could get cover at least...

Just like Guard could do everything Tau could do only better (and a lot of stuff they couldn't do too) around the time the last guard codex came out. Truly the great wheel of army balance keeps turning.

I also vividly remember outflanking genestealers making me effectively deploy on a table that was 3 ft wide since I had absolutely zero way of stopping them from eating me out of reserves...then the Yamgarls and the Doom showed up (he wasn't exactly assault though, so there's that)...

Things change. Tau sat out 2 pretty horrible editions (remember when we used to be the oldest non-BT codex that everybody laughed at?). Now we're on top. Probably once 7th edition drops we'll be back on the bottom of the heap because our rules are so custom tailored to 6th.

I don't know, I guess people just love to complain.

I have to agree with dementedwombat here. The cycle of power creep has ensured that there is almost always an army or two out there that just absolutely curbstomp the rest. I remember my Tau getting hopelessly crushed match after match by Orkz of all armies, with my firepower down right ineffective against Biker Nob deathstars and the fact that the broken and ubiquitous boss Snikrot was pretty much guaranteed to destroy 1 or 2 backfield units in assault before I even got a chance to shoot back. Imperial Guard were even worse after their codex dropped, as they outnumbered, out shot and thanks to there new Vendettas and reserve manipulation abilities, could even outmaneuver Tau. And of course my opponents would take the best stuff from their respective armies. Everybody always complains about tough list with multiple copies of strong units but I never see anybody handicap themselves by refusing to take the good choices from their codices.

The only difference with in regard to the Tau codex is what has already been stated by Sidstyler:

If there's any reason at all why Tau just "don't work", it's that: they were designed to shoot all day and do literally nothing else. GW doesn't even want Tau armies to move around anymore, just castle up and shoot gak coming towards you. Even Kroot, who were really gakky for an "assault" unit, got CC nerfs and were given sniper rounds so that all they can even think about doing anymore is shooting. It pisses me off, because I really kinda like that about them, and it makes them different from almost every other army, but it's precisely the reason why Tau are "no fun" to play with or against. Either you're bending your opponent over the table and he's sullenly pulling models off before he gets to do anything, or the Tau player trips up and then he's the one taking all his models off the table without being able to do anything...which admittedly is a lot harder to do now without intentionally taking bad lists and playing like an idiot, but still.

That is to say, in addition to your standard GW power creep, the Tau were altered to use gunline units and tactics in place of their much more interesting maneuver warfare tactics. Had Tau been built around mobility, close range shooting and given superior reserves manipulation, the army would be more interesting to play against if nothing else, which would reduce a lot of the animosity towards it.

Phanixis wrote:
That is to say, in addition to your standard GW power creep, the Tau were altered to use gunline units and tactics in place of their much more interesting maneuver warfare tactics. Had Tau been built around mobility, close range shooting and given superior reserves manipulation, the army would be more interesting to play against if nothing else, which would reduce a lot of the animosity towards it.

I don't think it'd reduce the animosity at all. You play mobile, people complain about JSJ being BS. You play gunline and people complain that you brought too much dakka. It's not something you can win.

Yeeesh. More bitching about tau an riptides. Every edition, people find some army to piss and moan about, and try to make guys who like the army in question feel like douches for using them.

We got literally this exact thread on necrons. Remember mss? Night scythe spam? Imotekh lightning?

Before that it was gk draigo wing.

Then the DE venomspam

And so on and so on.

Seriously, just.... STAHP with the pissing and moaning. The simple fact is this: the rules are the rules. Either accept this and play the game, or don't. But whining on forums literally does nothing, and certainly won't make GW issue a new codex for said army with a "whoops sorry we screwed up so here's a fix" and it definitely won't make someone put away hundreds or even thousands of dollars in minis just because they are the hated martyr of the season.

Learn to deal with these. In about 6 months the next thing will be out and everyone will hate on that.

And just because I'm nice, killing riptides is easy. All you do is shoot them. Seriously. Force enough wounds, and they go down. Treat em exactly like any other 2+ armor 5 wound unit. Heck, throw enough Bolter fire at them and they die. (Insert math hammer but but but) shove your math up your disruption pod. I've seen CULTISTS take down a riptide 3 wounds in a single shooting phase. I've seen marines do the same. Heck, a dev squad with missile launchers will do it. DE just laugh and say splinter cannons at that thing, and so on. Learn to deal and stop whimpering like a kid who just got his pogs confiscated.

Yeesh

Okay cultists killing a riptide is very unrealistic. Hitting half the time, they only wound 1/6th the time and then only have a 1/6th chance of wounding. Anyways, honestly I've often found it best to just ignore it. Sure, it is devestating, but it takes too much effort to kill. Too many wounds, too high of a save, too good of an invuln, too tough, too mobile, maybe some drone protections. I'd rather kill those marker lights and buffmanders

 DarthSpader wrote:
Yeeesh. More bitching about tau an riptides. Every edition, people find some army to piss and moan about, and try to make guys who like the army in question feel like douches for using them.

We got literally this exact thread on necrons. Remember mss? Night scythe spam? Imotekh lightning?

Before that it was gk draigo wing.

Then the DE venomspam

And so on and so on.

Seriously, just.... STAHP with the pissing and moaning. The simple fact is this: the rules are the rules. Either accept this and play the game, or don't. But whining on forums literally does nothing, and certainly won't make GW issue a new codex for said army with a "whoops sorry we screwed up so here's a fix" and it definitely won't make someone put away hundreds or even thousands of dollars in minis just because they are the hated martyr of the season.

Learn to deal with these. In about 6 months the next thing will be out and everyone will hate on that.

And just because I'm nice, killing riptides is easy. All you do is shoot them. Seriously. Force enough wounds, and they go down. Treat em exactly like any other 2+ armor 5 wound unit. Heck, throw enough Bolter fire at them and they die. (Insert math hammer but but but) shove your math up your disruption pod. I've seen CULTISTS take down a riptide 3 wounds in a single shooting phase. I've seen marines do the same. Heck, a dev squad with missile launchers will do it. DE just laugh and say splinter cannons at that thing, and so on. Learn to deal and stop whimpering like a kid who just got his pogs confiscated.

Yeesh

Since you asked for it, it takes on average 360 BS4 bolter shots to take down a Riptide with FNP. If you think that's a reliable way to kill Riptides there's nothing I can do for you other than shake my head.

Eh, I don't really dislike the Tau for anything lore wise. Rule wise I suppose there are some annoying tid bits, but it's nothing I can't deal with.

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:It's not that I don't like subtlety, I just don't see the need for it in 40k. All I need from fluff and art is provide me a mood for battle, I love the background visualy but I think it is rather silly and does not need a high literature kind of depth, that only makes the silly parts stand out more. I appreciate the in your face crazy rotten armies or mumbling killer fanatics of 40k and think Tau would only benefit from proper grimdark treament. If you look at my post it was intentionaly over the top and I didn't literaly mean skulls on Riptides but rather some darker designs and art instead of that sunny pictures and obvious malice instead of all those puny negotiating and propaganda to cover their little enslavement plan (if there really is a plan). It doesn't suit 40k, imo.

But there is nothing sunny about the Tau, they are showing up in battle with hi-tech weaponry and weapon platforms with the intent on surgically disassembling and annihilating the enemy. I fail to understand what is not grimdark about this.

Artwork is hardly grimdark, especialy if they're the only guys on the picture, look at the Tau picture in BRB where the factions are presented. Imperium, Chaos, Nids and all look like something from 40k but If you didn't have the fluff and wasn't told that Tau are from 40k, you wouldn't guess it probably. They look like something that could be from Star Wars or Mass Effect or sth.

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless, I'm after giving them some more menacing look than that of walking blue fishes. That's only me ofc because

Phanixis wrote:
as they say, there really is no accounting for taste.

btw I don't want to run Tau or Eldar or sth, I just want the factions in the universe to be grim and dark, not vaguely maybe a little bit grim and mostly sunny.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

The Zerg ripoffs that existed before Starcraft was released?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

The Zerg ripoffs that existed before Starcraft was released?

Yes. And this is easily one of the saddest things in the history of 40k (being roughly on the same level as a certain Guardsman who turned out to be an immortal superhuman).

 AtoMaki wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

The Zerg ripoffs that existed before Starcraft was released?

Yes. And this is easily one of the saddest things in the history of 40k (being roughly on the same level as a certain Guardsman who turned out to be an immortal superhuman).

Not really. The only thing arguably ripped off from Zerg are Raveners, but that was just returning the favor. And there was Chaos Snake long before Zerg that could have been what Blizzard ripped off.

Tyranids are Aliens, Predator and other B alien movies from the time ripoff, mixed with space dragons at some point and space bug dinosaurs later.

Zerg and Tyranids are both rip offs of Aliens, who ripped off Robert Heinlein, who probably ripped off someone else.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

I only agree with Eldar looking kind of bland but it's nowhere close to Tau, Dark Eldar not my taste but grimdark for sure. Other than that Tyranids look incredible, Hive Tyrant is a better design than Giger Alien imo, Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, Guard, Imperium all full of character and grimdark grimdarkness.

Tomb Kings in space look funny but that's only lately, Necrons before as silent death march were great.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Not really. The only thing arguably ripped off from Zerg are Raveners, but that was just returning the favor. And there was Chaos Snake long before Zerg that could have been what Blizzard ripped off.

Tyranids are Aliens, Predator and other B alien movies from the time ripoff, mixed with space dragons at some point and space bug dinosaurs later.

Come on, just compare the pre-SC Tyranids with the post-SC Tyranids: the "Zergification" is pretty darn evident IMHO.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Not really. The only thing arguably ripped off from Zerg are Raveners, but that was just returning the favor. And there was Chaos Snake long before Zerg that could have been what Blizzard ripped off.

Tyranids are Aliens, Predator and other B alien movies from the time ripoff, mixed with space dragons at some point and space bug dinosaurs later.

Come on, just compare the pre-SC Tyranids with the post-SC Tyranids: the "Zergification" is pretty darn evident IMHO.

Yes I did as played both 40k and Starcraft

Second edition Tyranid codex:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/269155.page

every element of later Zerg bar the snake tail is there - talons, grins etc

Zerg Hydralisk from 1st Starcraft - talons from hormagaunt, chest from warrior that is on the cover art.

http://pharmclips.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/zerg-hydralisk-by-gyromorgian-on-deviantart-vflvqa9k.jpg

Then there was Ultralisk, a 4 legs variation of Screamer Killer with Alien Queen head slapped on top

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080503040125/starcraft/images/1/1d/Ultralisk_SC-G_Art1.jpg

I don't have time to post other units but imo it is obvious Blizzard ripped of GW, which is even more evident when you look at how blatant ripoff Warcraft is.

Not to mention they look crap imo, as do Starcraft Terran armors and most things there in general. Even if GW did ripoff them, they made it look x100 better. But they just returned the favor imo and used some Zerg elements for the 3rd edition nids, also noticed how Blizzard is even more blatant with ripping off Alien than they were before so that I guess kind of encouraged them to use Alien Queen type head more.

Also I don't know why did you say it is a sad story that Gw ripped off Zerg, they rip off everybody all the time only twist it to super duper grimdark millions, there is nothing original in 40k. Blizzard mainly just ripps off GW and imo makes the material worse.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

I don't have time to post other units but imo it is obvious Blizzard ripped of GW, which is even more evident when you look at how blatant ripoff Warcraft is.

Yeah, I don't say that Blizzard didn't rip off GW. But then GW ripped off Starcraft.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Also I don't know why did you say it is a sad story that Gw ripped off Zerg, they rip off everybody all the time only twist it to super duper grimdark millions, there is nothing original in 40k. Blizzard mainly just ripps off GW and imo makes the material worse.

See above. It is like you eat something, throw it back up because it is bad then someone else cooks a cake from your vomit and you eat it again because it is now better. It is just plain disgusting.

Arguments about who ripped off who aside, the main reason people freak out about Tau in this edition is because they are so efficient. They do have some tough units that are hard to defeat. At best, I have a 50/50 shot against them using an optimized CSM list.

That said, I disagree with the OP's assertion that the problem has to do with the genre. It's perfectly fine to have a technologically superior race in the game so long as the mechanics are suitably adjusted. Tau simply unbalance a lot of things for a lot of people, and it's important to recognize that is the problem and adjust.

About 30% of the players at my FLGS are Tau players. There's one CSM player who beats them reliably with a 6 Heldrake list - in fact, he has never lost a game against Tau playing with this list. At best, Tau players shoot down 3 of his Heldrakes while the rest eliminate everything that is not a Riptide. He brings other forces as well that finish off his opponent and wins on victory points. Tau players still have to have scoring units to win in most scenarios and it's not hard to see how a list optimized towards killing those units can do some damage.

Before everyone starts screaming about spam, please realize I am not arguing this is the 'right' way to play 40k. But it illustrates a point, fighting Tau is a matter of making unconventional decisions to deal with the imbalances created by their Codex. When I play against anything with a Riptide, I am usually not trying to kill units in my opponent's army so much as subject them to leadership tests. Fear and Fearless are actually the best things CSMs have going for them versus Tau. I have chased more Riptides off the board than I have killed them, even with units you would not expect to be strong against them (i.e. bikers, raptors, even CSMs.)

Another thing is Forgeworld. I proxy my Land Raiders as Spartan Assault Tanks right now. There is a huge difference between AV 14 with 3 HP and 5 HP in terms of having a tank that survives and delivers assault units into combat. And yes, 20 man blobs of CSMs with MoK are vicious against Tau at close quarters. I also take a Contemptor Dread with a conversion beamer. Being able to shoot across the board with a S 10 heavy blast is extremely effective against Tau armies, it makes up for the problems with Defilers in a big way and gives you a response to some of the worst abuses of the Tau Codex.

I don't have all the answers to fighting Tau, but the underlying mechanics they break can really only be dealt with through better troop selection and tactics. You really have to play a different style when fighting them in order to win. This might get back to what the OP was saying, that they don't fit into the genre because you really can't play against them the same way as other armies.

People let you proxy a FW unit without an actual FW model , is it for all people in your community or do you just have high status in it ?
And 6 helldrakes kill more or less any army that can't spam av 13+ or +2svs.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Things change. Tau sat out 2 pretty horrible editions (remember when we used to be the oldest non-BT codex that everybody laughed at?). Now we're on top. Probably once 7th edition drops we'll be back on the bottom of the heap because our rules are so custom tailored to 6th.

A number of people seem to share this idea. The thing is, the power level of tau in the past editions does not matter. They certainly should not have been underpowered in previous editions, but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be overpowered now. Success at 40k should not depend on playing a codex at the correct time in the release cycle.

I don't mean to single you out dementedwombat but i've seen this idea come up a few times and I am tired of it.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

I don't have time to post other units but imo it is obvious Blizzard ripped of GW, which is even more evident when you look at how blatant ripoff Warcraft is.

Yeah, I don't say that Blizzard didn't rip off GW. But then GW ripped off Starcraft.

Calling them Zerg rippoffs is only half the true then (at best), especialy that they don't look like that anymore.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Also I don't know why did you say it is a sad story that Gw ripped off Zerg, they rip off everybody all the time only twist it to super duper grimdark millions, there is nothing original in 40k. Blizzard mainly just ripps off GW and imo makes the material worse.

See above. It is like you eat something, throw it back up because it is bad then someone else cooks a cake from your vomit and you eat it again because it is now better. It is just plain disgusting.

funny especialy that GW does it to some extent all the time, lately with Warmachine for Chaos Dinobots I think?

Anyway ok, that is some way to look at it. How I see it, except for Ravener and maybe, just maybe Zoanthrope, it's really hard to say as GW just streamlined the look of Nids using elements that you can find on their designs before and the same elements were used by Blizzard for Zerg. Zerg ripoffs far too much said, imo.

Anyway back to the original argument, they are not bland and characterless.

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

Things change. Tau sat out 2 pretty horrible editions (remember when we used to be the oldest non-BT codex that everybody laughed at?). Now we're on top. Probably once 7th edition drops we'll be back on the bottom of the heap because our rules are so custom tailored to 6th.

A number of people seem to share this idea. The thing is, the power level of tau in the past editions does not matter. They certainly should not have been underpowered in previous editions, but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be overpowered now. Success at 40k should not depend on playing a codex at the correct time in the release cycle.

I don't mean to single you out dementedwombat but i've seen this idea come up a few times and I am tired of it.

It's fine. You were quite civil about it. I'd say the proper response is to hate the GW design team though, not the army or the people who play it (unless they annoy you independently of the army I guess).

After playing Tau since 3rd edition I've pretty much gone so apathetic to rules balance at this point that I just shrug and grin no matter what happens. I suppose that's probably not the best idea but I just can't find it inside myself to get worked up about a game I play for fun and hobby stuff.

As much as I will say that Tau are definitely and firmly overpowered in the new Codex, I will say this:

Most people complaining about the tau most likely didn't have a problem enjoying the game when their chosen faction was seen in the same exact light as the Tau are right now. Because GW is stuck in this endless cycle of one codex at a time getting the new toy treatment.

I think that nearly every single faction in 40K is guilty of at least once being the "OMG overpowered faction" when their newest codex was released (or they were released as a new race to the game), to drive sales. For Tau to (truly) hit that point just took three editions.

Actually, you would be wrong. I got very sick of 3rd very quickly because all my victories were written off as "BA being BA". I don't like overpowered lists in my hands or my enemies' hands. It cheapens victories.

One person doesn;'t make me wrong, when it's been mentioned before in this very thread by others. Maybe you are just one of a few stacked against the players of Draigowing, flying croissants, Blood Angel rhino rushes, Venomspam, multiple-Heldrakes, Mindshackle scarabs, that new Daemon deathstar setup, etc.

It's all cyclical, all the way back to Space Wolves in 2nd edition.

Space Wolves weren't even that good in 2nd. Eldar, Tyranids, and CSM were all much, much better.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
One person doesn;'t make me wrong, when it's been mentioned before in this very thread by others. Maybe you are just one of a few stacked against the players of Draigowing, flying croissants, Blood Angel rhino rushes, Venomspam, multiple-Heldrakes, Mindshackle scarabs, that new Daemon deathstar setup, etc.

It's all cyclical, all the way back to Space Wolves in 2nd edition.

And remember how people hated tau back when fish of fury was still a thing?

Space Wolves weren't even that good in 2nd. Eldar, Tyranids, and CSM were all much, much better.

All I know is that I added them because I always hear people speak of hating how broken they were when they came out. I never particularly thought so, or at least never experienced anything broken about them.

Although.......... speaking of Space Wolves reminds me to put them on the "OP list" I posted previously, when everyone screamed about them after their last codex came out- the one that introduced JOTWW and Wolves riding wolves.

Yeah, the Space Wolf codex is still unfair compared to other meq codices, with the possible exception of C:SM. They are chaos marines ++ and my BA can't hold their jock straps. Space Wolves and GK are the two armies I can't watch get Taudared to death enough.

...Can you change your profile pic...It scares me when I look at it....

Why do people dislike tau? Easy question:

i) From a fluff perspective they are not grimdark enough (although vetock and the farsight enclaves added some, manipulating ethereals, who knew...)
They fit into the fluff ok, although I feel some times they are a bit too deus ex machina. They always conveniently pull something out of somewhere to save themselves in a bad situation.

ii) From a rules perspective it is because their codex is so good. Now I don't mean overpowered here. I mean very capable.

The tau codex has the capability to take on almost any threat. They have some of the best skyfire and interceptor choices of 6th ed so far, they have massed infantry firepower, maneuverable battlesuits, a new tough to kill mc and some fairly decent tanks.
Back these things up with the likes of buffmander, markerlights and ethereals and you have a book which has few natural weaknesses.
Also, most the stuff is well priced.

Pick a FOC slot for tau, and there are often several good choices for it.

If you compare Codex DA, or CSM to tau, they seem almost unfinished. Tau have more viable options, and synergy between units.

Personally I don't begrudge tau for this, I simply wish all Codices were completed to the same standard as tau.

Have a guy who plays at our store who fields (in 1500points)

1 Farsight,
1 IC Riptide
3 Suits w/ Plasma Guns and Flamers

1 Buff commander with the Puretide Chip, MSSS and C&CN
1 Riptide w/ Burstcannon, TL SMS, Skyfire, Target Lock, and 2 Drones.
1 Riptide w/ Ion Accelerator, TL SMS (i think).
3 minimum Kroot Squads (other than Sniper Rounds, that is)
1 Skyray

All at 1500 points.

Ouch.

EDIT: My problem with Tau, is, if built in such a way, can be a more point and click army than Space Marines at this point. Now, I love me my Space Marines, but being able to essentially ignore the ramifications of Leadership tests and being unable to be swept is a pretty big set of fundamental rules they can ignore.

Tau, with all of their various little pieces of wargear, can Split fire without the Leadership Test, Ignore Cover, get Monster/Tank Hunter, Twin Link all of their guns (which is huge on blast weapons!), and many others that allow them to get buffs and ignore the bonuses of other armies for relatively on the cheap.

Crazyterran wrote:


Tau, with all of their various little pieces of wargear, can Split fire without the Leadership Test, Ignore Cover, get Monster/Tank Hunter, Twin Link all of their guns (which is huge on blast weapons!), and many others that allow them to get buffs and ignore the bonuses of other armies for relatively on the cheap.

You might be on to something here. Part of the annoyance is that the Tau ignore special rules that you've paid for and have to rely on. Playing a Drop Pod list? Well, 5 point Interceptor, ain't that a shame? Playing a biker army? Enjoy that Jink Save you won't get. Night Fighting? Nope. Blind? Nope.

Seriously, I can't even understand the Riptide's design and people who are always defending such units are either hypocrites or just never played anything outside Tau.
Not only they are great, relatively cheap for everything they do, and they are elite !
You can discuss tastes and fluff to death, everybody will have a different point of view on the place Tau have in the wh40k universe. But rule wise...

 Big Blind Bill wrote:


ii) From a rules perspective it is because their codex is so good. Now I don't mean overpowered here. I mean very capable.

The tau codex has the capability to take on almost any threat. They have some of the best skyfire and interceptor choices of 6th ed so far, they have massed infantry firepower, maneuverable battlesuits, a new tough to kill mc and some fairly decent tanks.
Back these things up with the likes of buffmander, markerlights and ethereals and you have a book which has few natural weaknesses.
Also, most the stuff is well priced.
.

So its like , I hate tau because they got a normal good codex like eldar and other factions got bad writen or old codex . Which would explain why eldar or demon players are not offten seen as hating on the tau .

 LordofHats wrote:
Least original in a universe that's essentially Lord of the Rings in Space? Wow. I can't think of a worse thing to be.

And the Tau don't need to be a parody of Communist China. They are communist China (in space).

The Tau aren't anything like Communist China. They're heavily based off Imperial Japan before and during WWII.

Tau don't fit as they have a load of stupid rules that let them defy convention where everyone else is stuck that they don't deserve, on top of an already incredibly powerful playstyle that lets them win with minimal casualties. Their greatest weakness is objectives, but usually they can just wipe the other player off them anyway. The fact they suck in CC has no bearing, because noone will get into CC against a competent Tau player unless he's making an offensive push and you've got something uniquely fast like Bikes.

Vetock, the idiot that he is, decided that one of their only weaknesses was best made even less concerning by giving Tau supporting fire. Ugh.

Some units are just absurdly overpowered; namely Riptides/HYMP Broadsides/Buffmanders in certain capacities. They're stupid, easy choices that get things other armies would die for, for almost nothing.

Case in point, Riptides get interceptor and S8 AP2 pie plates with infinite range for 5 pts each. This is on a model that is a straight defensive upgrade (in fact, significant) over a Terminator squad, and yet even with both of those upgrades its 10 points cheaper. That with 5-6 times the defensive ability of a Leman Russ, or indeed most vehicles, costs barely more or in some cases less? Despite the fact that it gets a ton of gimmicks and AP2 pie plates? Really?

HYMP- easy S7 spam, basically auto-kills most flyers on entry with another ridiculously cheap interceptor upgrade. Buffmanders essentially double the stupidity of both of these units.

So, Codex weaknesses?

IG
-Infantry can't easily pull their weight outside of Mech Vets
-Outside of Mech, lack of mobility
-Considerably hard to kill MC's

SM Dexes
-Expensive to create MC killers that are usually one shot wonders
-Low model count with defensive bonuses that are worthless in some match ups
-Lackluster anti-infantry outside of the Thunderfire

Orks
Lack of AP2
Lack of mobility (Trukks aren't viable, Battlewagons require dedicating to it)
Reliance on Power Klaws

Dark Eldar
-Prepare to lose often if you never get the first turn
-Alpha strike needs to cripple or you die
-Difficulty with AA

Then, say Tau?
Uh, has to pry objectives from the cold corpses of your opponent's troops?
Becomes slightly less broken without marker lights?

The only wrong thing I find about the Tau is that they are in fact xenos when it would have been so much cooler if they were humans who had walked off the emperor's path (in a completely different way than regular heretics). Hated by both the Imperium of Man, because of their heretical "greater good" agendas and by the Mechanicum because of their obvious knack for technology.

To instead make them into boring xenos that look like they stepped out of an X-files episode (but with combat gear) was what broke them imo.

 LordofHats wrote:
Older Tau players would point out Kroot have always been a sort of shooting unit. Even before they lost 1strength they were a terriple cc unit, with the same bs as firewarriors with a much lower points cost and the ability to come in a muc larger unit. Being able to perform as a big tarpit doesn't exclude them from being used as shooting units when they're not blocking someone's charge.

Oh yeah, they've always been better at shooting. I just find it annoying because it always seemed to me like GW focused more on their close combat prowess in the background, but then they nerf the crap out of what little assault-oriented stats/rules they did have and give them sniper rounds for...some reason. They were never good at assault even with the extra S and attacks, so why take that away?

Martel732 wrote:
"And my brother's Blood Angel army has a winning record against my Tau. He also won our first and only game in 6th edition using his CSM, against my new codex (no riptides or heldrakes).

Therefore Tau are actually terrible. "

You're doing something wrong, then. I've army swapped with Tau, and BA are an easy, easy out. Although, for honest disclosure, I've won every army swap with BA. And all but one with C:SM. Marines are very vulnerable this edition.

5th edition Blood Angels with 5th edition Tau, if that makes any difference. The only 6th army I've played against was CSM and only the one time, because I just can't stand it anymore, playing 40k is a chore and I feel like I could be doing better things with my time now.

Like ranting on forums.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
If you can't see the difference in how 6thed markerlights negatively impact the game as opposed to non-open topped landspeeders and ATSKNF, the, single most overrated army trait in the game, then the problem is with your perception, not mine.

How would you change markerlights then, without removing them entirely? Because I personally kinda like the idea of markerlights, and on that note I also like the concept of the "buffmander" because I really like the idea of units buffing other units. It makes sense and fits in with the army.

I think it's too easy to diminish cover saves entirely with them, but other than that I don't see much wrong. And for a long time most other people didn't, either. Nothing much has really changed about them other than the new rules for removing cover, so I would assume that's probably the unbalancing factor, and that markerlights would be fine if it went back to the old way of doing things where you removed one counter for -1 save. The main reason the buffmander is so hated, from what I can tell, is because he can join riptides and Eldar units, both of which could be fixed by not allowing IC's to join MC's and getting rid of allies.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Phanixis wrote:
That is to say, in addition to your standard GW power creep, the Tau were altered to use gunline units and tactics in place of their much more interesting maneuver warfare tactics. Had Tau been built around mobility, close range shooting and given superior reserves manipulation, the army would be more interesting to play against if nothing else, which would reduce a lot of the animosity towards it.

I don't think it'd reduce the animosity at all. You play mobile, people complain about JSJ being BS. You play gunline and people complain that you brought too much dakka. It's not something you can win.

That's a good point, too. People have been bitching about crisis suit JSJ ever since the army was introduced (even though Eldar did it first and better, but it's generally accepted because "Eldar are supposed to be tricky!" or some bs and you certainly never see people arguing about how Eldar should be Squatted for it), and the only reason it seems to have kinda died off now is because the riptide happened and now they have something worse to complain about.

So yeah, I guess if you did get rid of the riptide people would just go back to bitching about crisis suits again until they got rid of them. And then stealth suits. And then broadsides. And then literally every other unit in the codex one by one until there was nothing left, because Tau just aren't allowed to be.

 DarthSpader wrote:
and it definitely won't make someone put away hundreds or even thousands of dollars in minis just because they are the hated martyr of the season.

Well, I wouldn't say that. I don't know if I can say that I've ever really put them away, but I have been greatly discouraged from doing damn near anything with them for long periods of time because I found all the online negativity and hate directed towards them a bit overwhelming. My army is still unpainted to this day and by this point I have about another army's worth of Tau models just sitting in boxes or on sprues that I just can't bring myself to do anything with, and it just so happened to coincide with Tau showing back up on everyone's radar and causing unprecedented rage in people. The only other time my enthusiasm for something got crushed so quickly and easily was the recent Tyranid release, where literally after taking the book home and flipping through it I lost all desire to start a Tyranid army...again.

It's possible that I'm just too fething sensitive, I dunno, but I didn't get into this crap because I wanted to put up with drama and bs over my choice of faction. Life is stressful enough as it is and I don't need my hobbies adding to that.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Hive Tyrant is a better design than Giger Alien imo

You shut your fething mouth!

Joking...kinda.

WhiteDog wrote:
Seriously, I can't even understand the Riptide's design and people who are always defending such units are either hypocrites or just never played anything outside Tau.

I don't understand the design, either...the model, I mean. It looks so bad.

As for the rules, that can be explained with either a) it's an $85 model, or b) Games Workshop is stupid. We all want to say it was the former, but realistically it was most likely the latter, since there's no real obvious pattern of GW making the new kits overpowered. The entire Tyranid release is proof enough of that, $70 and $80 kits left and right and not a single one is worth a damn.

It might even be a little of both. I like to think that GW accidentally made the riptide good, and then with the Farsight supplement and firebase support cadre decided to take advantage of that while they could and push people to field more and more of them.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Hive Tyrant is a better design than Giger Alien imo

You shut your fething mouth!

Joking...kinda.

Well it's all about taste, some people like big vicious alien commanders and others like hordes of big black dicks on legs

Makumba wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:


ii) From a rules perspective it is because their codex is so good. Now I don't mean overpowered here. I mean very capable.

The tau codex has the capability to take on almost any threat. They have some of the best skyfire and interceptor choices of 6th ed so far, they have massed infantry firepower, maneuverable battlesuits, a new tough to kill mc and some fairly decent tanks.
Back these things up with the likes of buffmander, markerlights and ethereals and you have a book which has few natural weaknesses.
Also, most the stuff is well priced.
.

So its like , I hate tau because they got a normal good codex like eldar and other factions got bad writen or old codex . Which would explain why eldar or demon players are not offten seen as hating on the tau .

Hey, I hate the tau just like the next man...but I run mono nurgle.