Could they? I am referring to the setting of WHFB-- the planet on which fantasy is set.

Conditions--

It's a regular, at strength Battle Company with around 100 marines not counting officers.

Captain
Codiecer Librarian
Chaplain
1 Dreadnought
2 Tech Marines
20 Assault Marines
60 Tactical Marines
20 Devestator Marines


1 Strike Cruiser which can shuttle down supplies, but can't bombard from above

3 Thunderhawks
10 Rhinos
2 Predators
1 Land Raider

Against the entire Warhammer World. I know that smaller groups of Marines have conquered larger areas but I don't think they could pull this one off. The winds of Magic are too strong and a competent wizard could probably somehow kill a Space Marine. Virtually all the rest of the world would be powerless to stop them but I think there are enough magic users in the Fantasy planet to attrite the Space Marine Force away to nothing

This assumes that the human factions fight against the Marines, instead of joining them in the imperial cult.

The sheer levels of Orc infestation, and the massive flow of Chaos forces would turn the whole world into a much larger battle than one Company could handle.

Especially considering that Chaos Champions of Fantasy can get 40K-grade gear (bolters, lascannons, etc.) as Gifts of Chaos, for which they never need worry about ammunition or training.

Definitely 'no': daemons exist in the warhammer world in the same way they do in 40K, and in large numbers. Even discounting the other factions on the warhammer world, the daemons would give the marines a run for their money/eat them all on their own.

No. They couldn't. They would never even be able to get there, unless they suddenly recieve the power to travel to different imaginary universes entirely.

No.

Skaven, Daemons, magic.. Well, yeah. You get it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No. They couldn't. They would never even be able to get there, unless they suddenly recieve the power to travel to different imaginary universes entirely.

Dude... read posts.
also, you realise that 40k and WHFB have been confirmed to be in the same universe, right?
there was a thingy over on BOLS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
no. 1 company, no. a fully decked out terminator company would just wade through everything, leaving rainbow-coloured gak everywhere. but a normal one would get killed pretty quick, probably just drown in goblins/orks.

" but can't bombard from above "

Nope.

Absolutely not. Magic is still a thing and the number of high level mages in WHFB is more than enough to destroy a company. Furthermore WHFB Orcs really aren't much weaker than 40k Orks and there are thousands/millions of them, not to mention undead and all manner of other beasts.

They'd lose. Let's not forget the Slann would tear them asunder long before they got in weapons range. That's just a few overgrown toads, we aren't even factoring in the epic amounts of daemons, orcs, mages, giant freakish creatures, etc.

A single company? Maybe not. A single company as part of a crusade fleet consisting of millions of additional guardsmen and support vehicles? Probably. Several chapters +, definitely.

It wouldn't be any different from the pacification of SIxty-Three Nineteen except even more of a pushover.

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No. They couldn't. They would never even be able to get there, unless they suddenly recieve the power to travel to different imaginary universes entirely.

Dude... read posts.
also, you realise that 40k and WHFB have been confirmed to be in the same universe, right?
there was a thingy over on BOLS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
no. 1 company, no. a fully decked out terminator company would just wade through everything, leaving rainbow-coloured gak everywhere. but a normal one would get killed pretty quick, probably just drown in goblins/orks.

Actually, the bolded part isn't true. Once upon a time it was, sort of, but over the past, oh, decade or so, GW has been taking steps to ensure that they are as separate as possible. There are a few nods to the other product lines in a few scattered sources, but the Old World is not a planet trapped in a Warp Storm, it is not an alt-history Terra (it has 2 moons, after all), it's not... anything, anything at all, in the 40K universe.

I remember when power fists and a power sword and power armor were briefly available as wargear in the Fantasy world. And there all the theories about Sigmar being a lost Primarch, which are interesting. I don't really know why the company feels it's such a requirement that the two worlds be completely separate, but whatever.

I agree with the above, I don't think that it would be possible for a single company to take the planet. I don't think even a trick company like the Deathwing or Ravenwing could do it, although they would make a bigger dent.

I do imagine that a single company could probably squash the Empire though-- which is interesting that the plurarilty of other powers have not done so.

I think the biggest problem would be Slann mind-shanking you from deep space, then Greater Deamons just doing their usual, then the big bag psychic stuff like Teclis and Nagash just ruining your whole day. But there would be a few lopsided battles like Bretonnia Vs. Tactical Squad 2a.

I think a brotherhood of Grey Knights is the minimum force that could pacify the world. Terminator armor is pretty tough to crack in terms of the weapons available on the Warhammer planet. And they don't lay down and die to psychic onslaught nearly as quickly as other marines. I imagine that their own Psychic power would be boosted by th Polar gates as well.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
a fully decked out terminator company would just wade through everything,

Until they meet a mage with the right spells... Lore of Metal, for example. Have fun being wounded on 2+ with no armor saves allowed.

If it hadn't been a world filled with magic, Daemons, feral Orks and so on... Sure.

Know No Fear C3 p40 wrote:To take a town, send a legionary. To take a city, send a squad. To take a world, send a company. To take a culture, send a Chapter.

But as it is, no. Normal infantry would be steamrolled but once the monster & magicspam begins the going gets tough.

honestly given the nature of the WFB world, would the Imperium even TRY to conquer it? or would they just scream "TAINTED!" and hit it with extermintus?

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly given the nature of the WFB world, would the Imperium even TRY to conquer it? or would they just scream "TAINTED!" and hit it with extermintus?

Exterminatus without a doubt.

Too many Daemons.

A lone company wouldn't be enough to take out even a single faction from WHFB, let alone the entire world.

Take away Magic and they'd still get stomped. Once they run out of ammo and become surrounded it's game over.

Now, a Chapter is more like it. They'd still be hopelessly outnumbered and would eventually be ground down into dust, but they'd certainly leave a lasting impression and one or two permanent scars on the balance of the world.

 Anfauglir wrote:
A lone company wouldn't be enough to take out even a single faction from WHFB, let alone the entire world.

Take away Magic and they'd still get stomped. Once they run out of ammo and become surrounded it's game over.

Now, a Chapter is more like it. They'd still be hopelessly outnumbered and would eventually be ground down into dust, but they'd certainly leave a lasting impression and one or two permanent scars on the balance of the world.

once they run out iof ammo they'd just switch to chainswords and butcher people by hand.

Don't agree. I assume a strike cruiser carries enough ammo to last for a campaign and can probably produce more, since they go on extended, decade long campaigns in them without returning to the Fortress Monastery.

There are at least a couple factions that the company could take down. Brets, Wood Elves, and Dwarves would all get wasted pretty easily. Brets have nothing to really touch power armor, much less any terminator armor. Bolters are going to penetrate virtually any armor in the warhammer world. I mean look how much damage a bolt thrower or cannon does in WFB then compare that to the rate of fire, accuracy, and penetrative ability of a bolter.

Dwarves and to a lesser extent Skaven are just flamer bait. They are localized in their holds and have no weapons to resist close assault from the Marines. The only reliable marine killer on the planet is magic, and the Dwarves are basically squibs there. Unalloyed cast iron isn't going to hold up to a bolt shell, or a chainsword, or even just an ass-beating passed out open handed from a tactical marine.

Basically in game terms a marine would be as tough as an orgre, encased in armor impervious to anything but magical weapons, carrying a gun as his longarm that is more deadly than the most sophisticated cannon existant anywhere on the surface of that planet, backed up by a combat knife with metallurgy so advanced it might as well be an AP2 power weapon against the crude armor available to even the dwarves.

I don't think that one company could do it, as I have said, but I think it would be much closer than people are thinking. Plus, assume we aren't dealing with complete idiots here-- Marines arrive and can lead a coalition of all the forces of order against the Chaos taint, then the orcs. Bolstered by the marines the balance of power would be disrupted and the forces of disorder would be wiped out. Then one by one pick off the other questionable factions. Skaven. Dark Elves. Vampires. Orgres. By now the forces or order, although victorious, are heavily depleted. They return in triumph to their home kingdoms.

The marines could leave then-- a reasonable chapter might achieve such limited objectives and succeed. The world would be pacified although not brought to the imperial truth. I imagine the humans would convert over though. A more xenophobic chapter would try to wipe out the dwarves, lizzies, and high elves. Dwarves would be a cake walk, and high elves would be manageable if Teclis comes down with a bad case of D-weapon poisoning from a thunder-hawk drive by. And lore of metal doesn't do anything to power armor since 1, it's not a metal and 2 in the case of terminator armor it's not any type of metal the lore of which is known on that planet.

I don't think they would be able to pull it off, but I don't think it is impossible. That is to say I don't feel the odds are as grim as people indicate.

edit Ninjad

BrianDavion wrote:
once they run out iof ammo they'd just switch to chainswords and butcher people by hand.

Which would work just fine for the first few waves... until the Marines tire. What? You didn't think they were immune to fatigue, did you? Here's another way to put it into perspective for you; even if the inhabitants of the Warhammer World formed an orderly queue for the Astartes to pacify them one by one... a mere hundred would still die of fatigue before they'd made a notable dent.

Forget the mages, deamons, and Skaven.

The Orcs alone would be enough to stop them.
Without guns: A hell of a lot of boys and gretchin archers who in total could balance out the lack of "sluggas".

And sooner or later, if this scenario allows, the orcs could eventually orcify the new technology given they believe in themselves enough. Thus Orkz are born.

How does a gretchin archer kill something in power armor?

And WFB have no meks that I'm aware of, so looting is a non-starter.



Edit-- also why does everyone say Skaven? I'm not super familiar with their background but it doesn't seem like they would be hard at all for the KILL IT WITH FIRE marines.

Lol, doesn't matter how much armour you put on it, a million Orcs whacking it with clubs will beat it to death eventually.

Orcs solo the marines. Daemons could solo the marines. Anything with sufficient mass and numbers or magic could do it.

I agree that Dwarves might be screwed though. Humans and Elves without magic too, with magic, dunno. I see the civilized races as fighting them a few times, getting massacred, and whimping out - meanwhile Orcs and Daemons at least would just keep on trucking until they took them down

Thats why above I laid down the plan a reasonable chapter would follow, which involves using the forces of order to pin the demons and orcs in position, then doing assassination strikes on the Nobs/Warbosses (classic SM ork maintenance strategy) and mortal champions of Chaos. I'd like to see the Everchosen get back up after getting prolapsed by 3 laser destroyer hits. In WFB the demons are beholden to the mortal champions of chaos so the marine MO of decapitation strikes is more viable than it is against 40k deamons.

They die. WHF has Chaos, coupled with Orcs (not to mention the Black Orcs). There's just too many races that would cause mass casualties to pretty much anyone without orbital support. WHF would need a crusade of several Chapters to bring it into compliance, if not simply blow it to bits.

But Chaos, Slann, and Orks coupled with the Elves and Vampires, along with the Tomb Kings? They'll need numerous orbital assets and a full scale invasion by multiple Chapters and Guard support.

Especially if the Slann decide that the Space Marines 'don't fit into the vision of their world' and suddenly continents move.

You said at the start that "This assumes that the human factions fight against the Marines, instead of joining them in the imperial cult." but now suddenly they're "using the forces of order to pin the demons and orcs in position"

If you want it to be Space Marines vs Fantasy its gotta be Space Marines vs Fantasy. Not "Space Marines wait for fantasy armies to kill each other and then stomp whats left"

 Silverthorne wrote:
How does a gretchin archer kill something in power armor?

And WFB have no meks that I'm aware of, so looting is a non-starter.



Edit-- also why does everyone say Skaven? I'm not super familiar with their background but it doesn't seem like they would be hard at all for the KILL IT WITH FIRE marines.

I'm no expert, and strike me if wrong, but skaven aren't jokes. For starters, the population is so large it would make an ork blush in jealousy. The number of skaven is ruthlessly kept secret. Along with that, they have quite a bit of warpstone and magic to their hands with a dreaded council of 13 mighty skaven heavily seeped in the magics.

 Dakkamite wrote:
You said at the start that "This assumes that the human factions fight against the Marines, instead of joining them in the imperial cult." but now suddenly they're "using the forces of order to pin the demons and orcs in position"

If you want it to be Space Marines vs Fantasy its gotta be Space Marines vs Fantasy. Not "Space Marines wait for fantasy armies to kill each other and then stomp whats left"

Really? Why exactly is that? Once there was unanimous agreement (including me) that no company could could solo the planet I posted again, considering what would happen if they marines were more circumspect. Otherwise it would just degenerate into a bunch of OMG NOs for how ever many pages. Not very interesting.

And Space Marines manipulate internal divisions on a planet to divide and conquer is still space marines vs. fantasy.

Not quite. It's Space Marines + High Elves + Dwarves + Bretons + Wood Elves (maybe) + the Empire + maybe Slann v.s. Vampire, Undead, Slann?, Orks, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons. Also it implies allying with High Elves and Wood Elves that might be familiar as Eldar (that they might just think are more dark eldar). And to be honest, at this point it would really mainly be just Fantasy vs Fantasy with 100 or so marines running around to help.

Also at this point I pause and say, if SM could get here, why wouldn't chaos daemons just become more 40k like as well? But that's more of just a curiosity at it all.

Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I replied to the original question, to which your reply was phrased as a counterargument which invalidated the first post.

If you want to change the perimeters, sure, a company of space marines could lolstomp battle weary humans, elves, dwarves and what not. Same way they could certainly just lolexterminus the entire planet. Not really something worth discussing.

Seeing as in your first post you mentioned something I said in my re-set then you already knew I was asking about different parameters. Are you currently lying or just confused?

You don't think this is worth discussing at all... so why are you here?


Edit-- also why are you saying ' sure, a company of space marines could lolstomp battle weary humans, elves, dwarves and what not.' as if that is something I said? I said that even in that situation, I didn't think it was possible. Are you lying to misrepresent me now or do you have a serious reading comprehension problem?

Could it depend on the chapter the company is from? If you're talking about a straight up fight then if they go to war with the entire world then probably not. Then get wiped out in the way others have said or turn it into another Armageddon (not that it isn't now. Don't know much about that storyline.) If it comes down to tactics that perhaps more could be done. Ravenguard might do very well with stealth/guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. Sow confusion in enemy ranks. The Salamanders would probably take anything that would maintain their gear. Then there's whoever would look for defectors to help the cause. But for any Marine company when the ammo runs out they still have armor and melee weapons. They could probably repair or rearm provided they secured and beachhead.

 Psienesis wrote:

Actually, the bolded part isn't true. Once upon a time it was, sort of, but over the past, oh, decade or so, GW has been taking steps to ensure that they are as separate as possible. There are a few nods to the other product lines in a few scattered sources, but the Old World is not a planet trapped in a Warp Storm, it is not an alt-history Terra (it has 2 moons, after all), it's not... anything, anything at all, in the 40K universe.

Never liked the idea of both game existing in the same universe. Like it would somehow ruin WHFB by either limiting it's potential or hard to explain why the 40k types don't find a way in and change everything.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not quite. It's Space Marines + High Elves + Dwarves + Bretons + Wood Elves (maybe) + the Empire + maybe Slann v.s. Vampire, Undead, Slann?, Orks, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons. Also it implies allying with High Elves and Wood Elves that might be familiar as Eldar (that they might just think are more dark eldar). And to be honest, at this point it would really mainly be just Fantasy vs Fantasy with 100 or so marines running around to help.

Also at this point I pause and say, if SM could get here, why wouldn't chaos daemons just become more 40k like as well? But that's more of just a curiosity at it all.

That's interesting and I don't know. The differences between the 40k deamons and WFB deamons are significant but then you have guys like Belakor. I have assumed in the past that something involving the Slann and the Old Ones is what prevents the WFB deamons from being the same as the deamons in the wider world.

Same with Orks, the WFB variety just feel weedier to me than the 40k ones, especially the Octavian warbosses and guys like Thrakka

I don't believe your seeing what he said. he said the space marine may [/b]use[b] the forces of order, USE. unless im still half asleep (its like 3 am here) I don't think that he means they directly ally, more that they subtly guide them. also, I don't care how many orks are hitting me, if my armour cant be damaged, im ok.
10000000000 leaves is not going to damage a rock. and the magic peoples get mind raped by the librarian. [/terminators]

 Silverthorne wrote:
Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I didn't mean to place them on the side of Chaos. More like.... I can't quite tell if they would really ally entirely with the forces of order. Keep in mind these are the guys that screwed over dwarves cause MOUNTAINS MOVE! I could see them just getting pissed that SM were there claiming it doesn't fit in. Along with that, I wouldn't say their knowledge of the old ones would be surprising as much as... what are the old ones? I find it, personally, rather unlikely most librarians even know what the Old Ones are, and that doesn't even factor in it is unlikely that the Slann's old ones are the same as 40k's. Along with that, you mentioned chaos being more dependent on the warriors of chaos. By this theory of universes, it would arguably work just like in 40k rather than how it functions in fantasy making them even more threatening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not quite. It's Space Marines + High Elves + Dwarves + Bretons + Wood Elves (maybe) + the Empire + maybe Slann v.s. Vampire, Undead, Slann?, Orks, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons. Also it implies allying with High Elves and Wood Elves that might be familiar as Eldar (that they might just think are more dark eldar). And to be honest, at this point it would really mainly be just Fantasy vs Fantasy with 100 or so marines running around to help.

Also at this point I pause and say, if SM could get here, why wouldn't chaos daemons just become more 40k like as well? But that's more of just a curiosity at it all.

That's interesting and I don't know. The differences between the 40k deamons and WFB deamons are significant but then you have guys like Belakor. I have assumed in the past that something involving the Slann and the Old Ones is what prevents the WFB deamons from being the same as the deamons in the wider world.

Same with Orks, the WFB variety just feel weedier to me than the 40k ones, especially the Octavian warbosses and guys like Thrakka

I think it really has to do with them being brought to keep a relative playing field with the rest of them. In 40k, chaos daemon outcrops really feth over planets. Such a small planet that has had holes into the warp almost eternally ripped open in the top and bottom of the planet, in 40k, would pretty much devestate the planet within at most a few decades (which would be surprising if the consistency was so high). Orks proably run the same that or orks aren't adapted to getting boltered (or just to be balanced out as usual. Also they don't get to ride space rocks to smash into enemies )

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I didn't mean to place them on the side of Chaos. More like.... I can't quite tell if they would really ally entirely with the forces of order. Keep in mind these are the guys that screwed over dwarves cause MOUNTAINS MOVE! I could see them just getting pissed that SM were there claiming it doesn't fit in. Along with that, I wouldn't say their knowledge of the old ones would be surprising as much as... what are the old ones? I find it, personally, rather unlikely most librarians even know what the Old Ones are, and that doesn't even factor in it is unlikely that the Slann's old ones are the same as 40k's. Along with that, you mentioned chaos being more dependent on the warriors of chaos. By this theory of universes, it would arguably work just like in 40k rather than how it functions in fantasy making them even more threatening.

in 40k, chaos
is
very dependent on cults. the chaos marines are like very few in number to the amount of cultists. almost every planet has a least one chaos cult.

Wait chaos marines? I wasn't even mentining CSM. I was actually speaking of Warriors of Chaos which are really just hordes of chaos worshippers. So I really don't get your point. Along with that, we also have to factor in the north and south pole literally are both mini eye of terrors that are fueling the warp in a completely different way than elsewhere (which would likely cause problems to librarians)

Right and it's more important in 40k to have cults because you are cut off in material space and have to form a breach to bring deamons in. CSM I guess could just show up using physical means but the Imperial Navy probably makes that a risky haul.

But on the Fantasy Planet you have the rift, right there, all the time, so I guess cults in the cities aren't as important.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait chaos marines? I wasn't even mentining CSM. I was actually speaking of Warriors of Chaos which are really just hordes of chaos worshippers. So I really don't get your point. Along with that, we also have to factor in the north and south pole literally are both mini eye of terrors that are fueling the warp in a completely different way than elsewhere (which would likely cause problems to librarians)

ohhhh derp on my behalf, by warriors of chaos I thaught it was just like cultists, I thaught you were saying chaos doesn't concern the general cult guys, oops. did not know the mini eye of terra thing, but I think that the terminators would still go "EVERYONE SHOOT THE GUY WITH FIRE COMING OUT OF HIS EYE BALLS!'

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Do you see Slann as fighting on the side of Chaos potentially or is that a typo? This makes me wonder if when/if the librarian had an audience with a Slann the knowledge of the old ones would suprise him. I'm not sure how much a very, very knowledgeable citizen of the imperium (like a librarian) would know about the Old Ones. Assuming, as all this does that the universes are somehow connected.

I didn't mean to place them on the side of Chaos. More like.... I can't quite tell if they would really ally entirely with the forces of order. Keep in mind these are the guys that screwed over dwarves cause MOUNTAINS MOVE! I could see them just getting pissed that SM were there claiming it doesn't fit in. Along with that, I wouldn't say their knowledge of the old ones would be surprising as much as... what are the old ones? I find it, personally, rather unlikely most librarians even know what the Old Ones are, and that doesn't even factor in it is unlikely that the Slann's old ones are the same as 40k's. Along with that, you mentioned chaos being more dependent on the warriors of chaos. By this theory of universes, it would arguably work just like in 40k rather than how it functions in fantasy making them even more threatening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not quite. It's Space Marines + High Elves + Dwarves + Bretons + Wood Elves (maybe) + the Empire + maybe Slann v.s. Vampire, Undead, Slann?, Orks, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons. Also it implies allying with High Elves and Wood Elves that might be familiar as Eldar (that they might just think are more dark eldar). And to be honest, at this point it would really mainly be just Fantasy vs Fantasy with 100 or so marines running around to help.

Also at this point I pause and say, if SM could get here, why wouldn't chaos daemons just become more 40k like as well? But that's more of just a curiosity at it all.

That's interesting and I don't know. The differences between the 40k deamons and WFB deamons are significant but then you have guys like Belakor. I have assumed in the past that something involving the Slann and the Old Ones is what prevents the WFB deamons from being the same as the deamons in the wider world.

Same with Orks, the WFB variety just feel weedier to me than the 40k ones, especially the Octavian warbosses and guys like Thrakka

I think it really has to do with them being brought to keep a relative playing field with the rest of them. In 40k, chaos daemon outcrops really feth over planets. Such a small planet that has had holes into the warp almost eternally ripped open in the top and bottom of the planet, in 40k, would pretty much devestate the planet within at most a few decades (which would be surprising if the consistency was so high). Orks proably run the same that or orks aren't adapted to getting boltered (or just to be balanced out as usual. Also they don't get to ride space rocks to smash into enemies )

In general the power level seems lower. 2 huge warp rifts on a planet AND an ork incursion? You are completely boned. Especially when the best you can round up is some guys with flint locks on ponies. Assuming that the SM can port over at their 40k background power level I still don't think one company could do cover the spread but they would put a serious hurting on whatever flimsy species of ork and deamon can't overrun the empire in any kind of permanent fashion.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Seeing as in your first post you mentioned something I said in my re-set then you already knew I was asking about different parameters. Are you currently lying or just confused?

You don't think this is worth discussing at all... so why are you here?


Edit-- also why are you saying ' sure, a company of space marines could lolstomp battle weary humans, elves, dwarves and what not.' as if that is something I said? I said that even in that situation, I didn't think it was possible. Are you lying to misrepresent me now or do you have a serious reading comprehension problem?

Ehh, I misread "Plus, assume we aren't dealing with complete idiots here" as "Plus, I'm assuming...", so in that context, what was an extension of your modified argument came across as "herp derp I'm changing the rules now"

Guess my reading comprehension is as bad as your attitude.

If Space Marines can manipulate forces of order etc, then we come to the shocking revelation that Forces of Order + Space Marines > Forces of Disorder

That I would agree with. I still don't think they could take the entire planet down. I think it would be interesting if they were stranded on the planet and became a separate fiefdom.

Eh I'm sorry for going off on you. Dakka makes people crazy.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
and the magic peoples get mind raped by the librarian.

Someone's going to have a dispel scroll for that.

 Wilytank wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
and the magic peoples get mind raped by the librarian.

Someone's going to have a dispel scroll for that.

buryed deep in the vampire crypts, rests a stroll as ancient as time it self.
"scroll of chastity belt"

 Silverthorne wrote:
That I would agree with. I still don't think they could take the entire planet down. I think it would be interesting if they were stranded on the planet and became a separate fiefdom.

Eh I'm sorry for going off on you. Dakka makes people crazy.

Iz all the dakka! It makes ya want to go all WAAAAAGH and shootemall

they wouldn't last a week, the Slann would see they as a force disrupting the plans of the old ones and would have the skink priests rain meteors down on both them and their ship before adding there on magical might. As for Gray nights, I'm not fully sure. while in terms of fuff magic and psychic powers are very similar, at most a signal pychic and left a battle tank (and that would be a very powerful pycher) while the strongest mages of Old World can shift the landmasses and those on the weaker side are still able to bring forth pockets of hell.

I'm sitting here, reading this... And just thinking, who, and or what is going to deal with the thunderhawks? The marines could just make a prolonged campaign of the hawks going into orbit, reloading, then swooping down and taking out whatever they like with turbo laser destroyers.

Oh, and please, don't suggest magic or dragons, nothing would be fast enough to take them out of the sky if they are zooming at super sonic.

The thunderhawks could swoop down with marines loaded with long range heavy weapons, unload the marines, unleash a salvo and then reload and swoop away before absolutely anything could get in range to challenge them.

I also see a total failure of perception that most of you think for some reason the marines would go straight up toe to toe with fully prepared armies on a battle field, they'd strike at enemy camps at night, take out the enemy commanders and mop up the the leaderless armies later.

If the marines are patient and willing to take the time, they could wipe out the planet, yet they aren't an efficient option for this, they'd need guard support to do it within a decent time frame.

Orcs seem far weaker than Orks to me.

Orcs can get their butts kicked by Empire soldiers in melee. Who wear only simple steel swords, shields, helmets and breastplates.

40K Orks can be dangerous to even Space Marines in melee.

The difference is tremendous.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The marines could just make a prolonged campaign of the hawks going into orbit, reloading, then swooping down and taking out whatever they like with turbo laser destroyers.

Yeah... no, they couldn't. I mean sure, the first few dozen strikes would devastate whatever the singular ground target was, but you really think the factions are going to just muster on open fields and the commanders are going to sit and wait in their tents and barracks after that happens? No, they're going to say; "screw fighting that, I'm heading underground". Oh, there goes the Marine's aerial advantage when the enemy decides not to stand in the open. And even still, I really don't think you're grasping just how immense the task of pacifying the entire planet would be for a single Astartes company and their handful of Thunderhawks. It's just not doable. At all.

Oh, and please, don't suggest magic or dragons, nothing would be fast enough to take them out of the sky if they are zooming at super sonic.

Magic. More specifically warp storms. Zoom around all you want in your fancy pants metal dragon of mega-uber-death, you're still toast the moment someone decides to fill the sky with energy that can split and mutate all your atoms, and isn't fussy at what speed it does so.

If the marines are patient and willing to take the time, they could wipe out the planet

No, they really couldn't. Not by a long shot. Like I said before, even a single united faction from WHFB would be too big a task for a lone Marine company. The notion that they could wipe out the entire planet is beyond laughable.

Warhammer World - easy to pacify. Resistance by a few GW-Employees means nothing




Basically threads like this are screwed from start. You either give one side a joker ( WHFB > Magic ) and can't get anywhere then, or you realize there is a good reason to keep both playgrounds seperated.

Space Marines are from a highly industrialized setting. Casualty rates are far beyond the typical battles of fantasy settings.
*So whfb vs wh40k is dense infantry formations vs machine guns. Guess who wins.
*its long range and engagements across kilometres vs close range and pointy sticks. Guess who wins.
*its high mobility and control of the tools to get anywhere vs slow footsloggers, vs non-existant road networks, vs a few bridges. Guess who has the initiative.
*its high endurance and time on your side vs supply chains, armies need to rest, leaders who aren't immortal. Guess who can play the attrition game.
*its focus on a mission objective vs a endless struggle for power... Guess who follows ONE plan and doesn't backstab his "allies".


Without "magic" as mega-hyper-extra-plot armor, fantasy armies are massacred "on the fly".
Would this pacify the warhammer world ?

Maybe peace isn't part of the setup of the warhammer world.

It is extremely amusing, though for only a limited period of time, how some people overestimate the power of Space Marines (and that comes from a guy whose favourite faction is Spiky Space Marines).

Pit 100 Marines against an army of 2000 knights and the Marines actually might win. But 20,000 knights? 200,000? 2 million?

Even implementing clever tactics and a very efficient and cautious approach, the Marines would lose sooner or later. The more damage they would do, the angrier their opponents would grow, and after a time the Marines would find themselves surrounded from all sides by immense armies containing knights, musketeers, cavalry, siege machines, beasts, daemons, wizards and who knows what else, with limited supplies and no way to retreat.

Good luck.

 SarisKhan wrote:


Pit 100 Marines against an army of 2000 knights and the Marines actually might win. But 20,000 knights? 200,000? 2 million?

How many knights could Bretonnia field ?
a few hundred ?

Are we suddenly down to a single faction or the entire world as in the title? I'm confused.

Confused?

Humans field knights.
Bretonnians love to field knights.
How many knights could Bretonnia field?

Your point was "millions of knights". Mine is: there aren't so many.

Not a chance. The WHFB world is a terrible hell hole and by 40k standards it's a prime target for Exterminatus. Chaos is everywhere, undead are everywhere, and not to mention the amount of non-human species.

Depends if they are playing "smart" of course. Lining up on the other side of the battlefield, probably not.

If they play it smart, and (for instance) employ multiple simultaneous, devastating simultaneous deep devastating multiple deep strikes and start decapitating the leadership of the various factions then they would certainly be able to render several of the local empires and civilizations fairly harmless.

Problems arise when you start fiddling with the delicate balance of the Warhammer world though, because the more you mess around the more likely you are to have Slaan plot trinket drop a mountain on you, accidentally unleash the full force of the Chaos Gate or awaken Nagash, and then the planet is as good as toast.

Really, exterminatus is the only answer here (but that's not allowed), so I will go with "they neuter several factions (humans, dwarfs, elves, perhaps even the lizardmen and Chaos tribes), then get wiped out (along with everyone else) by one of th various end of the world scenarios".

Can I just say that 40k orks do a pretty darn good job of taking out Space Marines with crude blades and axes seen often in the fantasy universe. IF they can lay it into them with those, how much better will the finesse weapons of Bretonia and elves be? Granted, they are not showstopper weapons, but they can kill. Even a SM has weak points. Joints specifically. The average MK7 power armor has enough mesh area between the helmet and neck, or the groin area, to slip a sword through and fatally wound. It would be a difficult shot, but possible nonetheless.

And there are guns. Empire has some guns, and the steam tank. Other teams got cannons and such. Heck, even a rock from a Bretonian Trebuchet could kill a marine. WF casualties would be enormous, but they can win.

I'm picturing a flight of three thunderhawks, in echelon of 3, with the heavy bolters and laser destroyers going as they strafe a charging field of bretts.

That's the problem that the WFB factions will have. They only way they can kill the Marines is either with magic (which is tough because then the wizard has to get within stand-off range of the marines unless he's a bad-*ss like Teclis or Slann) and when you try that, the fact that marines have more acute senses than most apex predators means you'll get engaged and eliminated before you can 'find and fix' the marines.

The other way you can kill marines is to mob them, but that requires you to assemble huge forces out in the open. That's when the companies armory assets, like Thunderhawks, Storm Talons, Vindicators, etc really, really make you wish you had a third option.

But you don't.

Imagine if 40k orcs had no sluggas, no klaws, no dakkajets, no AA or AT at all. They would not be really that challenging to handle. You hear about marines getting killed by orcs all the time, sure. You don't hear about marines getting killed by feral orks when they have total air supremacy very often.

That said, I still think attrition would limit a clean sweep, although they could probably CLEANSE AND PURIFY all the factions of disorder.

Not a chance. As everyone has already said, there's just too much for them to even try to handle it. Exterminatus should be used on the Old World, but let's face it, when has a marine company ever looked at a world like that and *not* just blindly flown down to try to conquer it on the ground? The marines would be wiped out by their own hubris very quickly.

The marines wouldn't get wiped out, as the marines simply wouldn't try to take the planet by them selves, I know that is the scenario but it is an unrealistic one even in the 40k setting, the marines may take out multiple enemy commands, but they have better things to do than mop up the rest. Also, they aren't stupid, these are highly trained, specialised and highly tactical warriors, so when the factions go underground, or into hiding in the forests or mountains, the marines aren't going to follow them, they are going to call for back up if the world seems worth saving, or they are going to mark it for exterminatus and move along.

The marines would get toast if they tried to put the factions down on the open battle field, but they aren't going to do that, they are going to strike and quickly withdraw back into orbit before anything nasty decides to deal with them. Though, those nasty things aren't exactly fast moving, they don't have any fast transport to close the distances to the marines, the marines could lead their foe on a merry chase till they get exhausted.

Seriously, a much more realistic and interesting scenario is a couple of guard regiments with average armor support + one company of marines. Against a feral human world that would be more than enough, but against a multi-nasty world it could be a fair fight, especially as the guardsmen are BOUND to make a stupid arrogant tactical error at some point.

Toast in open field? Imagine the battle of agincort with about 15 heavy bolters in machine gun pits backed up by a firing line of 40 or so tacticals with 20 assault marines to kill the wounded and pursue the broken forces into a rout. Open field the marines would dominate WFB factions, hard.

Steam tank? Meet 41st century technology LAND RAIDER.

Dragon? Dodge this hellstrike missile

Saurus Block? Catch this vindicator shell

Strategically the Marines advantage is insurmountable. they can move across the entire world in hours, where it takes weeks for most fantasy armies to travel even a couple hundred miles. Marines can strike at staging areas and destroy the other factions abilites to make war, as they don't have the manpower to guard every farm.

Tactics win battles but logistics win wars. Considering how easily the marines can interdict the WFB lines of communication and supply (after assploding their generals and religious leaders) you can see where i am coming from.

The biggest problem the WFB guys have isn't actually the marines themselves. It's the thunderhawks and the mobility they give the marine force. They can't match that. Plus with a strike cruiser in orbit, marine C4ISR means they can't be suprised and have the exact disposition of enemy forces above ground (and possibly below, we don't know alot about their imaging tech) at all times, in real time. That's massive.

Tend to agree with those who say the Marines wouldn't try to take this world. Rather they'd launch key strikes at key areas designed to effectivly destablize the world to make the "human guard wave" easier.

Nope. Skaven, Chaos, magic, magic, magic, magic, magic...did I say magic? Oh and chaos...and...magic? They can certainly crush conventional armies. Unfortunately for them, thats minority in WHFB.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Toast in open field? Imagine the battle of agincort with about 15 heavy bolters in machine gun pits backed up by a firing line of 40 or so tacticals with 20 assault marines to kill the wounded and pursue the broken forces into a rout. Open field the marines would dominate WFB factions, hard.

I'm just going to address this one, because it's the key reason why marines WOULDN'T fight them in an open field. The more open the field is, the more directions they can be attacked from, the more enemies that can attack them simultaneously and the more enemies they need to kill. This is a huge problem, if the marines end up against 50k+ enemies all lined up ready to have a go when the wave in front of them fails, they are going to struggle BIG TIME when they run out of ammo. At that point, the thunderhawks are going to have to come down to resupply and/or extract, and then the thunderhawks are vulnerable to huge monsters and magic mental wizards and mages.

The only reason marines would engage in an open battle situation is what I mentioned earlier in the thread, where the marines drop down, strike with superior range and extract before the distance is closed.

The only way the marines survive is to stay mobile, it is also the only way they could win conceivably by themselves. Open battle isn't the way forward.

Or maybe we assume that the strategy rating 4 space marines with unassailable mobility and reconnaissance abilities don't allow themselves to be caught in the middle of open field surrounded by every army in the warhammer world....

Here's how I foresee things happening.

It will play out something like the Malus Darkblade roadshow a fear years ago. I was at the Edinburgh store when they arrived, and what do you know?

About a dozen teclis-level (or teclis impersonator level fours, ehe) with Lore of Heavens just turned the entire battlefield into a meteor storm of legends. By turn two, half the battlefield was knee-deep in Comet of Cassandora templates - because really, what people are forgetting is that the Lore of the Heavens could rip a Thunderhawk out of the sky and use it as a projectile weapon - since asteroids move at similar speeds and have significantly greater mass.

What's that banner the Skaven have that stops all flying and hinders shooting? The Thunderhawks, jump packs and all ranged weapons just got useles.

I'm pretty sure warpstone ammo would have a good chance to penetrate power armour too.

How many Skaven can a chainsword mangle before it overheats and explodes or it jams on rat bones? Not enough.

Skaven kill all the marines without the other factions even having to try.

Daemons also kill all the marines easily due to the warp gates allowing them to constantly re-spawn.
Slann don't even have to get out of bed to kill all the marines but probably don't notice them or spend too long thinking about it.
Teclis kills all the marines solo because he's Teclis...

The marines would easily run out of ammo before they killed even 10% of the greenskin population.

Nagash brings back every dead marine as an undead marine and uses them to kill all the other marines before taking over the world, then the galaxy until every living thing is dead and every dead thing is under his control.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Or maybe we assume that the strategy rating 4 space marines with unassailable mobility and reconnaissance abilities don't allow themselves to be caught in the middle of open field surrounded by every army in the warhammer world....

So you agree, the marines wouldn't face them down in the open field.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Or maybe we assume that the strategy rating 4 space marines with unassailable mobility and reconnaissance abilities don't allow themselves to be caught in the middle of open field surrounded by every army in the warhammer world....

So you agree, the marines wouldn't face them down in the open field.

Space Marines never face down their enemy in the middle of an open field, they are a scalpel not a slegehammer. That is the Imperial Guard.

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No. They couldn't. They would never even be able to get there, unless they suddenly recieve the power to travel to different imaginary universes entirely.

Dude... read posts.
also, you realise that 40k and WHFB have been confirmed to be in the same universe, right?
there was a thingy over on BOLS..

For your information: I did read the post.
It mentioned nowhere how the Marines were able to get there in the first place.
40k and WHFB are not in the same universe, GW has made that very clear.
There are too many conflicting things (Magic, Slaanesh) for them to be in the same universe.

Now if we assume that the Marines were just magically teleported to a different universe, the interesting things in the interaction between 40k and Fantasy would be magic, which does not exist in 40k, and psychic powers, who do not exist in Fantasy.
Now a company could not pacify the Warhammer World, magic is too strong and the Marines do not have any resistance to it. But I am sure the Marines could leave quite an impression.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Or maybe we assume that the strategy rating 4 space marines with unassailable mobility and reconnaissance abilities don't allow themselves to be caught in the middle of open field surrounded by every army in the warhammer world....

I'm going to argue that marines seldom make anything resembling sane decisions in most of the novels I've read. They see the open battlefield and fifty thousand goblins and they just start salivating. They freaking LOVE vainglorious last stands, almost as much as they love to piss away vital resources and personnel on pointless battles. They'd be going on and on about the Emperor protecting this that and the other, and next thing you know your whole company drop podded into the Chaos Wastes with no plan for extraction because retreat is not an option, or some crap like that.

 welshhoppo wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Or maybe we assume that the strategy rating 4 space marines with unassailable mobility and reconnaissance abilities don't allow themselves to be caught in the middle of open field surrounded by every army in the warhammer world....

So you agree, the marines wouldn't face them down in the open field.

Space Marines never face down their enemy in the middle of an open field, they are a scalpel not a slegehammer. That is the Imperial Guard.

Actually, I think the comparison is flawed. Something like an Imperial Assassin would be the scalpel. Marines seem like an awfully strong hammer to me, whereas the Guard is a masssssssssive, slow sander.

An Assassin is a needle, a Marine squad is a scalpel, and a Guard platoon is a sword. Hammers are reserved for Tank Companies and doomed dropships.

That said, bossfearless is pretty much right about how most marines operate.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Or maybe we assume that the strategy rating 4 space marines with unassailable mobility and reconnaissance abilities don't allow themselves to be caught in the middle of open field surrounded by every army in the warhammer world....

So you agree, the marines wouldn't face them down in the open field.

Space Marines could engage at several kilometres range. WHFB armies can't.
Open field = training session for scouts.

Still waiting for warhammer supporters to see the error in their logic....

Numbers don't matter if you can't engage.

Numbers matter most of all. 100 marines fighting 24/7 would not make a dent in the population of the whole planet. ( skaven alone already )

Nonsense.
Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city. Fantasy settings aren't different.

There aren't millions of living/undead creatures and surely pacification =/= kill em all.

Lore of Metal...

Ceramite=/= metal

What exactly is Ceramite?

 1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city. Fantasy settings aren't different.

There aren't millions of living/undead creatures and surely pacification =/= kill em all.

Ahem...by ancient era you mean medieval? Like...WHFB?

 1hadhq wrote:
Still waiting for warhammer supporters to see the error in their logic....

There is no error in the bare faced fact that a single Marine company cannot possibly hope, in any capacity whatsoever, to have enough supplies, ammo, manpower (there's only a hundred of them, in case that wasn't clear) or time with which to pacify an entire planet. How can you even begin to think otherwise? Seriously?

Numbers don't matter if you can't engage.

They matter a whole lot if you want any chance in hell to actually assert any kind of lasting victory or dominance after you've flexed your superior, although extremely localised and limited, military might. Again, once the hundred supermen from heaven run out of ammo, which will take almost no time at all (because, you know, there's only a hundred of them and they're fighting an entire planet, in case that still hasn't sunk in), they will be left no other choice than to engage in close quarters. Once they do that, it's only a matter of time before they get bogged down and surrounded, and in turn they'll tire and finally get ground into dust.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Ceramite=/= metal

Citation needed. What is ceramite composed of, then? Because as far as I was aware, it is used in conjuction with adamantium and plasteel in most forms of advanced building material and armour plating technology. Therefore I'm pretty certain that the lore of metal would be extremely effective against Marines and, most crucially, their equipment.

Yeah, as the previous points have mentioned, there is just no way in which a single company of space marines could take on the entirety of the WHFB world and conquer it.

 Anfauglir wrote:
How can you even begin to think otherwise? Seriously?

Well, @heresy era, a company of Ultramarines what was deemed appropriate to capture a world (Source: Know no Fear, a novel that was not too OTT in this respect IMHO), but WHFB is not exactly a normal world.

Isn't Know No Fear about the Battle of Calth?

UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city. Fantasy settings aren't different.

There aren't millions of living/undead creatures and surely pacification =/= kill em all.

Ahem...by ancient era you mean medieval? Like...WHFB?

WHFB has a lot of collected stuff, like Egyptians ( tomb kings ) Fantasy ( elves and orcs and dwarfs ) , Bretonnia ( medieval ) , Empire ( 1400-1600 ), etc.

Anfauglir wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Still waiting for warhammer supporters to see the error in their logic....

There is no error in the bare faced fact that a single Marine company cannot possibly hope, in any capacity whatsoever, to have enough supplies, ammo, manpower (there's only a hundred of them, in case that wasn't clear) or time with which to pacify an entire planet. How can you even begin to think otherwise? Seriously?

Yes seriously.
GW created planets aren't like our Earth.
Elfs are rare. Dwarfs are rare. Both aren't automatically overrun whenever they face a more numerous opponent.
Thus you can't pull the "100 marines isn't enough" card here.

This is not : "pacify a hive city of 10-100 million souls."
Its "keep some settlements and a few kings in check".
Different mission.
Make the Kings bow to the God-Emporer and be done with it. World pacified. Compliant.

Anfauglir wrote:

Numbers don't matter if you can't engage.

They matter a whole lot if you want any chance in hell to actually assert any kind of lasting victory or dominance after you've flexed your superior, although extremely localised and limited, military might. Again, once the hundred supermen from heaven run out of ammo, which will take almost no time at all (because, you know, there's only a hundred of them and they're fighting an entire planet, in case that still hasn't sunk in), they will be left no other choice than to engage in close quarters. Once they do that, it's only a matter of time before they get bogged down and surrounded, and in turn they'll tire and finally get ground into dust.

Nothing says SM have to engage in HtH at all. Mankind moved on from stone axes to shooty sticks. Am sorry but if CC was so great we would still use the same weapons as we did for thousands of years. But we don't.

Whfb is outmaneuvred, outclassed in range, too immobile and its defenses useless ( castles vs airborne assaults anyone ? ).
The ressources of whfb closer to the battles of city-states than World-wars.


To achieve the mission objective:
The space marines don't have to kill everyone. They don't have to control every being on that planet.
Your mistake is, they just end the existance of Armies. They end the life of leaders. They cut off trade lines.
Make them run away. Fear the wrath of the ones up in the sky.
And surely superstitious enough to build myths around the newcomers to make them too mighty to even consider to oppose them.

 1hadhq wrote:

UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city. Fantasy settings aren't different.

There aren't millions of living/undead creatures and surely pacification =/= kill em all.

Ahem...by ancient era you mean medieval? Like...WHFB?

WHFB has a lot of collected stuff, like Egyptians ( tomb kings ) Fantasy ( elves and orcs and dwarfs ) , Bretonnia ( medieval ) , Empire ( 1400-1600 ), etc.

Yeah. And main part is Empire, Bretons, Kislev, heck, even those Elves are medieval. If you say "in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city" in this context, its...simply wrong. Bigger medieval cities had from 40 thousand to 200 thousand people. For the Egyptian metropolis, Alexandria had from 300 thousand to even one million with slaves accounted. And of course, like you said, there are orcs and skaven, not exactly known for low numbers of fighting force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 1hadhq wrote:

To achieve the mission objective:
The space marines don't have to kill everyone. They don't have to control every being on that planet.
Your mistake is, they just end the existance of Armies. They end the life of leaders. They cut off trade lines.
Make them run away. Fear the wrath of the ones up in the sky.
And surely superstitious enough to build myths around the newcomers to make them too mighty to even consider to oppose them.

So in final we have picture of space marines, flying over world, shooting some rockets and dashing away so no magic, demon, warp, chaos, magic, magic, magic, dragon, demon, warpstorm doesnt hit them and during the flying they say "yeeeeah, we conquered this world!"

Sorry, it would end like this. "Hey, some new magical gimmick from Empire/ Dwarfs/ Tzeentch/ Druchii.." - take it down with our fethton of antiair and lets continue...oh, what a nice piece of armor, lets put it on flagpole, dont scrub those remains

 Anfauglir wrote:
Isn't Know No Fear about the Battle of Calth?

That it is, but it is still discussed by the characters there. Given how strategically competent said characters are, you'd think they know what they are talking about.

Chapter 3, page 40.

 1hadhq wrote:
Elfs are rare. Dwarfs are rare. Both aren't automatically overrun whenever they face a more numerous opponent.
Thus you can't pull the "100 marines isn't enough" card here.

Yes, yes I can. Over and over again no matter how many times you refuse to face it. The Elves and Dwarves being rare matters very little in the face of a hundred opponents, it's still far, far too little a force to permenantly destroy and/or dominate them. How, pray tell, are a hundred warriors going to be able to police all of the Elf and Dwarf kingdoms effectively? Or at all, for that matter? They're not, and to think that they can is delusional. I say again: not enough manpower, it's really that simple.

This is not : "pacify a hive city of 10-100 million souls."
Its "keep some settlements and a few kings in check".
Different mission.

And one that is still completely and utterly impossible for a single company to accomplish. There are not enough Marines to go around and kill enough leaders, police enough provinces, supress enough rebellions, erradicate enough Chaos, etc, etc, etc that would be needed to even start transforming the Warhammer World into an ordered, compliant planet.

Make the Kings bow to the God-Emporer and be done with it. World pacified. Compliant.

Except no, because the Orcs will never bow. The Skaven will never bow. The Warriors of Chaos, and the numberless Daemon hoards will never bow. The Slann and their Lizardmen will never bow. The Beastmen will never bow. The Tomb Kings and the Vampire Counts are extremely unlikely to bow, as are the Elves, Dwarves and Ogres, for that matter. Also, there's a tiny problem with that "make" part of your grand plan. The only way they're going to "make" any faction of the Warhammer World do anything is the complete military, political and ideological subjugation of that faction... something they simply don't have the numbers to do.

Nothing says SM have to engage in HtH at all. Mankind moved on from stone axes to shooty sticks. Am sorry but if CC was so great we would still use the same weapons as we did for thousands of years. But we don't.

You seem to have trapped yourself in some fallacy that the Warhammer Fantasy and 40K universe resembles our own when it comes to how much reliance is placed on melee warfare. Sorry to break this to you, but... Space Marines are nothing more than medieval knights INN SPAAACE! GW and 40K fluff love the romantic notion of hand-to-hand combat, Marines are no different and can't get enough of it. Pro-tip: stop trying to relate what the Space Marines are and how they would fight based on our own, modern, real life military forces. It doesn't work, and does nothing for your argument. Finally, one thing says that the Marines will have to engage in melee: supplies, namely munitions. They aren't infinite, more to the point, they're vastly inadequate for the task at hand.

The ressources of whfb closer to the battles of city-states than World-wars.

Right, and a hundred soldiers is not even enough resources for city-state battles, let alone world-wars. The fact that you think otherwise is, I'm afraid, both delusional and laughable.

 UlrikDecado wrote:


Sorry, it would end like this. "Hey, some new magical gimmick from Empire/ Dwarfs/ Tzeentch/ Druchii.." - take it down with our fethton of antiair and lets continue...oh, what a nice piece of armor, lets put it on flagpole, dont scrub those remains

What kind of anti-air are you going to shoot at a Thunderhawk or, even more hilariously, a Drop Pod?

Seriously, Drop Pod in, kill the leaders of various factions before they know they're in trouble, extract with Thunderhawk. Rinse and repeat. They never have to fight the Empire, Bretonnia, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Kislev etc. The Daemons will prove problematic, as will the Orks and Lizardmen (due to Slann being prophetic), but everyone else can be dealt with in a surgical manner, the sort of combat Astartes are trained for. Even the High Elves, with Dragons and Magic, will be helpless since they don't know that they're under attack before the Drop Pods and Thunderhawks arrive in the middle of the Phoenix King's court to murder the everliving crap out of everyone important.

As for cities with 200k+ inhabitants, I imagine that incendiary bombs dropped from the Thunderhawks could set fire to them rather easily. Sure, there'd be survivors, but it'll take ages to rebuild, which means the Astartes can go deal with something else.

Mobility wins wars.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

That it is, but it is still discussed by the characters there. Given how strategically competent said characters are, you'd think they know what they are talking about.

Chapter 3, page 40.

Sorry, I'm sure you're making perfect sense from your side, but seeing as I haven't read Know No Fear and don't have a copy I really can't comment one way or the other. What I can say, however, is that GW and 40K fluff in general is well known to be woefully inadequate at scaling correctly, particularly when it comes to the logistics of warfare... things like force size, campaign times, etc. Therefore if in a BL novel a single company of a hundred Marines invades and pacifies an entire planet, then it is no less a ridiculous or unlikely event than the hypothetical one posed in this topic.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city. Fantasy settings aren't different.

There aren't millions of living/undead creatures and surely pacification =/= kill em all.

Ahem...by ancient era you mean medieval? Like...WHFB?

WHFB has a lot of collected stuff, like Egyptians ( tomb kings ) Fantasy ( elves and orcs and dwarfs ) , Bretonnia ( medieval ) , Empire ( 1400-1600 ), etc.

Yeah. And main part is Empire, Bretons, Kislev, heck, even those Elves are medieval. If you say "in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city" in this context, its...simply wrong. Bigger medieval cities had from 40 thousand to 200 thousand people. For the Egyptian metropolis, Alexandria had from 300 thousand to even one million with slaves accounted. And of course, like you said, there are orcs and skaven, not exactly known for low numbers of fighting force.

Alexandria 400AD ca 80000 - 90000 ( McEvedy ).
Cordoba 1600 AD ca 25000
Padua 1254 AD ca 11000
Ravenna 1371 AD 7000
Konstantinopel 1453 AD ca 30000 1927AD 691000

Doesn't sound like hundred thousands or millions.

Look at it this way-it's it's own game-sm is just one faction (albeit tech advanced) and a company is a fraction of a faction.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Yes, yes I can. Over and over again no matter how many times you refuse to face it. The Elves and Dwarves being rare matters very little in the face of a hundred opponents, it's still far, far too little a force to permenantly destroy and/or dominate them. How, pray tell, are a hundred warriors going to be able to police all of the Elf and Dwarf kingdoms effectively? Or at all, for that matter? They're not, and to think that they can is delusional. I say again: not enough manpower, it's really that simple.

There are not hundreds of opponents.
Wars aren't fought against "every single living creature of a planet" no matter how hard you want to believe it.

 Anfauglir wrote:

And one that is still completely and utterly impossible for a single company to accomplish. There are not enough Marines to go around and kill enough leaders, police enough provinces, supress enough rebellions, erradicate enough Chaos, etc, etc, etc that would be needed to even start transforming the Warhammer World into an ordered, compliant planet.

Sure, the mongols policed every single chinese and most of the asian continent to rule them all....

 Anfauglir wrote:

Except no, because the Orcs will never bow. The Skaven will never bow. The Warriors of Chaos, and the numberless Daemon hoards will never bow. The Slann and their Lizardmen will never bow. The Beastmen will never bow. The Tomb Kings and the Vampire Counts are extremely unlikely to bow, as are the Elves, Dwarves and Ogres, for that matter. Also, there's a tiny problem with that "make" part of your grand plan. The only way they're going to "make" any faction of the Warhammer World do anything is the complete military, political and ideological subjugation of that faction... something they simply don't have the numbers to do.

Really?
Who cares if fantasy orcs don't bow and wh40k orks don't...
But keep your silly double standards.
The undead fall apart without their leaders. Elves are too few to resist, dwarfs too.

 Anfauglir wrote:

You seem to have trapped yourself in some fallacy that the Warhammer Fantasy and 40K universe resembles our own when it comes to how much reliance is placed on melee warfare. Sorry to break this to you, but... Space Marines are nothing more than medieval knights INN SPAAACE! GW and 40K fluff love the romantic notion of hand-to-hand combat, Marines are no different and can't get enough of it. Pro-tip: stop trying to relate what the Space Marines are and how they would fight based on our own, modern, real life military forces. It doesn't work, and does nothing for your argument. Finally, one thing says that the Marines will have to engage in melee: supplies, namely munitions. They aren't infinite, more to the point, they're vastly inadequate for the task at hand.

Both , warhammer and warhammer 40k are GW "universes".
Space marines are ok as Knights in space. There is no fallacy. Just your ignorance.
So I don't need "pro-tips" and crap like it just because you can't get over the fact Shooting has proven its worth and HtH isn't so important anymore.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Right, and a hundred soldiers is not even enough resources for city-state battles, let alone world-wars. The fact that you think otherwise is, I'm afraid, both delusional and laughable.

I accept your delusions and am willing to post without "laughable" and other used as "arguments"..
The leg your position stands on must be really weak to resort to this.

It's funny how people keep forgetting that Chaos Daemons exist at the same level of magical potency and lunacy in the Fantasy setting as they do in the 40K setting.

Chaos Daemons can stomp marine armies in standard games of 40K. The marines, isolated and alone without continuous support, Chaos Daemons alone would ensure this company falls. We don't even need to factor in the utter world-shaking power of the Slann or the uncountable Orc and Undead legions. Anybody arguing in favor of the marines is being obtuse and just ignoring the facts.

 1hadhq wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city. Fantasy settings aren't different.

There aren't millions of living/undead creatures and surely pacification =/= kill em all.

Ahem...by ancient era you mean medieval? Like...WHFB?

WHFB has a lot of collected stuff, like Egyptians ( tomb kings ) Fantasy ( elves and orcs and dwarfs ) , Bretonnia ( medieval ) , Empire ( 1400-1600 ), etc.

Yeah. And main part is Empire, Bretons, Kislev, heck, even those Elves are medieval. If you say "in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city" in this context, its...simply wrong. Bigger medieval cities had from 40 thousand to 200 thousand people. For the Egyptian metropolis, Alexandria had from 300 thousand to even one million with slaves accounted. And of course, like you said, there are orcs and skaven, not exactly known for low numbers of fighting force.

Alexandria 400AD ca 80000 - 90000 ( McEvedy ).
Cordoba 1600 AD ca 25000
Padua 1254 AD ca 11000
Ravenna 1371 AD 7000
Konstantinopel 1453 AD ca 30000 1927AD 691000

Doesn't sound like hundred thousands or millions.

Moscow (1400) 150-250 000
Prague (1420) 10 000
London (14th) 25-50 000
Cordoba during Ummayads - 50-200 000 sources vary
Paris 40-80 thousand
Marseille 30-50 000
Alexandria, as I said (Walbank, Astin), but funny thing is, you cant make good estimates because of huge slave population (= moooooar tomb king warriors!)

But, at the beginning you said Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city - sorry mate, big lie. Or rather mistake, not lie, sorry.

SM lose

Bah. Obviously, the marines can't win. Bolters only have a 50/50 chance to even go through Heavy Armour when it's combined with a shield!

As for 'engaging at ranges of hundreds of kilometres' you kinda missed the part where we're talking about Marines, not Guard, didn't you? The only weapon a Marine has with any 'over the horizon' ability is the Whirlwind, and even that requires spotters to do more than pop rockets over walls.

Love how everyone on the 40k side is ignoring the fact that the Lore of Heavens is all the anti-air you ever need. It can grab ASTEROIDS from SPACE, people. The Lore of the Heavens can reach out thousands of miles to grab giant rocks that mass in at hundreds of tonnes and travel at thousands of kilometres per second, and divert them to crash into the planet accurately in less than ten minutes.

THAT is what kind of anti-air the Old World has to offer against Thunderhawks, etc. What kind of evasive action can a Thunderhawk take against an invisible hand scooping it out of the sky and tossing it face-first into the mud?

Heck, it would probably only take ten, maybe twenty level four Celestial Wizards to rip the dang Strike Cruiser out of the sky.

Edit: The bit about AP5 vs 4+ saves was a joke, by the way, in case anyone took it seriously.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:


Sorry, it would end like this. "Hey, some new magical gimmick from Empire/ Dwarfs/ Tzeentch/ Druchii.." - take it down with our fethton of antiair and lets continue...oh, what a nice piece of armor, lets put it on flagpole, dont scrub those remains

What kind of anti-air are you going to shoot at a Thunderhawk or, even more hilariously, a Drop Pod?

Seriously, Drop Pod in, kill the leaders of various factions before they know they're in trouble, extract with Thunderhawk. Rinse and repeat. They never have to fight the Empire, Bretonnia, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Kislev etc. The Daemons will prove problematic, as will the Orks and Lizardmen (due to Slann being prophetic), but everyone else can be dealt with in a surgical manner, the sort of combat Astartes are trained for. Even the High Elves, with Dragons and Magic, will be helpless since they don't know that they're under attack before the Drop Pods and Thunderhawks arrive in the middle of the Phoenix King's court to murder the everliving crap out of everyone important.

As for cities with 200k+ inhabitants, I imagine that incendiary bombs dropped from the Thunderhawks could set fire to them rather easily. Sure, there'd be survivors, but it'll take ages to rebuild, which means the Astartes can go deal with something else.

Mobility wins wars.

Yeah, because we saw, how mobility won Afghanistan Sorry mate, you are operating with childish (OK, its whole thread, I admit) "no no, they can fly away!" Thunderhawk get hit by lightning...warp stom? Fething dragon?? Drop pod is good, I admit...bring dead SM meat closer to demise, but cant be shot, I agree You idea is "we have enough of fuel to fly over the planet many time, make surprising attack, doesnt get killed by gakton of magic, artifacts and other thing leaders like in WHFB like to have around, fly away, do it again and after that, everyone will mourn and we will be victorious, planet conquered, because, we said so". Yeaaaaaah

 Silverthorne wrote:
Ceramite=/= metal

If my leather armor and wooden shield wearing guys get killed by the Lore of Metal the. PA and TDA doesn't stand a chance...

 1hadhq wrote:
There are not hundreds of opponents.
Wars aren't fought against "every single living creature of a planet" no matter how hard you want to believe it.

I didn't say there were. I said that the Elves and Dwarves being rare wasn't an issue in the face of "a hundred opponents"... i.e. their kingdoms only have a single Marine company to deal with. Get it? One hundred soldiers are no match for either the Elves or the Dwarves, or any other faction. I'm sorry, but they're simply not.

Really?

Yes. Really.

Who cares if fantasy orcs don't bow and wh40k orks don't...

Umm... your argument sure should, seeing as your whole position was "just make a few kings bow to the Emprah and BAM! Whole planet is now pacified". The entire Orc population of Warhammer World will never, ever bow to a human God, and a mere hundred Marines certainly won't make them. So who cares? Well, only those who are concerned with making any kind of sense in this ridiculous debate, it seems.

But keep your silly double standards.

Remind me what these double standards are, and where they appear. Do you know what double standards are?

The undead fall apart without their leaders. Elves are too few to resist, dwarfs too.

Too few? You do realise a single Marine company is just a hundred soldiers, right? Has that come up in this topic yet? Because you really don't seem to be getting just how impossible it would be for such a limited force to actually accomplish anything of lasting value against even a single united Fantasy faction, let alone the entire world.

Space marines are ok as Knights in space. There is no fallacy. Just your ignorance.

Remind me what I'm being ignorant of. Do you know what ignorant means?

I don't need "pro-tips" and crap like it just because you can't get over the fact Shooting has proven its worth and HtH isn't so important anymore.

Here's another pro-tip: shooting is only useful when you have something to shoot. Once the things that are shot during shooting are all gone... guess what? The things that used to be able to shoot have significantly less worth. Stop trying to pretend the 40K universe has real-life levels of imbalance between ranged and melee warfare. You know that twenty out of the hundred Marines are there just to engage in close quarters, right? You do know that if the 40K universe resembled real life warfare the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy would dominate the galaxy pretty easily and all wars would be decided at a range of many, many kilometres, and that the pitched table-top battles we see with powerswords and chainswords and powerfists etc just wouldn't exist? Right? Space Marines are just another romantic incarnation of crusading knights who love to charge in the hit stuff in noble, glorious melee just as much (if not more) than shoot things at range. It's a fact. Get over it.

I accept your delusions and am willing to post without "laughable" and other used as "arguments"..
The leg your position stands on must be really weak to resort to this.

I genuinely don't understand what you're saying here. Resort to what?

No way no how. If a choppa can kill an Marine you'd better bet a Cannon Ball to the face will. Also the people of WFB might actually be smart enough to shoot for the face.

UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

UlrikDecado wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city. Fantasy settings aren't different.

There aren't millions of living/undead creatures and surely pacification =/= kill em all.

Ahem...by ancient era you mean medieval? Like...WHFB?

WHFB has a lot of collected stuff, like Egyptians ( tomb kings ) Fantasy ( elves and orcs and dwarfs ) , Bretonnia ( medieval ) , Empire ( 1400-1600 ), etc.

Yeah. And main part is Empire, Bretons, Kislev, heck, even those Elves are medieval. If you say "in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city" in this context, its...simply wrong. Bigger medieval cities had from 40 thousand to 200 thousand people. For the Egyptian metropolis, Alexandria had from 300 thousand to even one million with slaves accounted. And of course, like you said, there are orcs and skaven, not exactly known for low numbers of fighting force.

Alexandria 400AD ca 80000 - 90000 ( McEvedy ).
Cordoba 1600 AD ca 25000
Padua 1254 AD ca 11000
Ravenna 1371 AD 7000
Konstantinopel 1453 AD ca 30000 1927AD 691000

Doesn't sound like hundred thousands or millions.

Moscow (1400) 150-250 000
Prague (1420) 10 000
London (14th) 25-50 000
Cordoba during Ummayads - 50-200 000 sources vary
Paris 40-80 thousand
Marseille 30-50 000
Alexandria, as I said (Walbank, Astin), but funny thing is, you cant make good estimates because of huge slave population (= moooooar tomb king warriors!)

But, at the beginning you said Settlements in the ancient era on earth had only a few thousand people per city - sorry mate, big lie. Or rather mistake, not lie, sorry.

SM lose

No lie. Just believable numbers based on sources that don't need to blow something up to "moooooar" ..
The only real one you have is Prague.
Am Sorry too.

Anfauglir wrote:
Yes. Really.

No.

Anfauglir wrote:
Umm... your argument sure should, seeing as your whole position was "just make a few kings bow to the Emprah and BAM! Whole planet is now pacified". The entire Orc population of Warhammer World will never, ever bow to a human God, and a mere hundred Marines certainly won't make them. So who cares? Well, only those who are concerned with making any kind of sense in this ridiculous debate, it seems.

Sense? Who aims for sense in fantasyhammer vs sci-fantasyhammer, both based on GW templates for function and scale ???

Anfauglir wrote:
Do you know what double standards are?

Yes.

Anfauglir wrote:
Too few? You do realise a single Marine company is just a hundred soldiers, right? Has that come up in this topic yet? Because you really don't seem to be getting just how impossible it would be for such a limited force to actually accomplish anything of lasting value against even a single united Fantasy faction, let alone the entire world.

Keep on overestimating the size of the warhammer factions.

Anfauglir wrote: Do you know what ignorant means?

Got posts like yours as a example. So yes.

Anfauglir wrote:
Here's another pro-tip:

Lets see: I said stuff your "pro tips" where the sun never shines. Your reaction: oh Hi have another "pro tip"....
Well, thanks for nothing.

Anfauglir wrote:
I genuinely don't understand what you're saying here. Resort to what?

I am sure you understand.

 1hadhq wrote:
Sense? Who aims for sense in fantasyhammer vs sci-fantasyhammer, both based on GW templates for function and scale ???

Oh, okay... my mistake! Let me abandon sense and see where my argument then lies. Ahhh, I see. Without sense, I can totally and utterly understand how a lone Marine company from 40K can easily invade and pacify the entire planet from WHFB! Cheers!

 1hadhq wrote:

Anfauglir wrote:
Do you know what double standards are?

Yes.

Ha ha, nice try. But you see, you conveniently left out the first half of my question, you know, the part where I asked you to point out my supposed double standards and thus proving (or disproving) the very need for the second half. Without the first, your reply to the second rings decidedly and profoundly hollow. Now, I ask again: where are my double standards? If you continue to assert that they're there without simply (and correctly!) identifying them then you'll have validated my second question by demonstrating clearly that you don't have a clue what double standards are.

Keep on overestimating the size of the warhammer factions.

I have overestimated no such thing. To do so would require hard numbers. The only numbers I've used is that put forth by the OP: a full battle company of Space Marines. Stop putting words in my mouth and/or mixing my posts up with those of other users debating slightly different aspects of the debate with you.

 1hadhq wrote:

Anfauglir wrote:Do you know what ignorant means?

Got posts like yours as a example. So yes.

Yeah... sorry, same issue as before, I'm afraid. A simple definition and how it applies to my posts will suffice, if you would. If you can't, or won't, then again you will have clearly demonstrated to me your lack of understanding - your ignorance, go figure - of what it actually means to be ignorant.

Lets see: I said stuff your "pro tips" where the sun never shines. Your reaction: oh Hi have another "pro tip"....
Well, thanks for nothing.

You're welcome. And don't think for one second that I'll hesitate to furnish you with continued gifts of wisdom and advice for as long as your posts cry out for more help.

I am sure you understand.

I am sure that I don't. Really, I don't. What was that last part saying? Resort to what?

 d-usa wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Ceramite=/= metal

If my leather armor and wooden shield wearing guys get killed by the Lore of Metal the. PA and TDA doesn't stand a chance...

Hahaha fair enough. I would like to see a single stranded space marine character in the WFB world. Like a lost-in-the warp librarian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I didn't aim to start a big flame war, I just think it's fun to think about-- especially some of my favorite characters in 40k, like Sammael riding along side pistoleers or something.

Also, I would be interested if the 'open minded' commander would consider necromancy and vampires actually bad. The Imperium, and sepecifically Space Marines practice basically necromancy all the time, so I bet he would actually have a lot less problem with Vampire lords than the average Fantasy human. Especially if it's a BA captain...

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
It's funny how people keep forgetting that Chaos Daemons exist at the same level of magical potency and lunacy in the Fantasy setting as they do in the 40K setting.

Chaos Daemons can stomp marine armies in standard games of 40K. The marines, isolated and alone without continuous support, Chaos Daemons alone would ensure this company falls. We don't even need to factor in the utter world-shaking power of the Slann or the uncountable Orc and Undead legions. Anybody arguing in favor of the marines is being obtuse and just ignoring the facts.

Can you source that they are equally powerful in both universes?

And no, game mechanics certainly do not count.

Because if Daemonettes can tear up Terminator armour but have problems with a knight's plate armour, I suspect something is fishy.

incidently, it likely won't shift things eaither way, but according to the space Marine codex each battle company is reinforced by elements from the 1st company and the reserve companies. so the odds are any Battlecompany deploying will deploy with more then 100 men. proably more along the lines for 150. not that it matters much in the force of that, but I think it's worth noting that the marines would thus also have bikes, land speeders, and reserve troops with them.

Space marines don't stand a chance in hell. To avoid complications let's stick with comparables. An ogre is about an equivalent to an ogryn, there are thousands of ogres in the warhammer world, that alone would stand all over a readily 100 marines. Orc equals feral ork ,there are possibly millions of orcs, enough to drain the marines dry of ammunition,Don,t even get me started on the skaven. Greater daemon equals greater daemon, one of which can sweep away entire units of Marines, so with that we can assuming things with similar stat lines such as dragons would be similarly destructive. A whole chapter might stand a chance but a company? Not even close.

BrianDavion wrote:
incidently, it likely won't shift things eaither way, but according to the space Marine codex each battle company is reinforced by elements from the 1st company and the reserve companies. so the odds are any Battlecompany deploying will deploy with more then 100 men. proably more along the lines for 150. not that it matters much in the force of that, but I think it's worth noting that the marines would thus also have bikes, land speeders, and reserve troops with them.

I'm pretty sure that it means when a Chapter deploys a "battle company", it is structured around a core of tactical, assault and devestator Marines drawn from their actual, logistical Battle Comps, which are then supplemented by 1st Comp vets and 10th Comp scouts and whatever else from the armoury to suit the needs of whatever the campaign/mission is. These composite companies are then transported in Strike Cruisers and deployed as Battle-Comp strength formations, therefore they can still be managed on a logistical level as a "battle company", which means a strength of roughly 100 Marines. At least, that's how I've always viewed it. You're right about the bikes and speeders etc, though. Each Strike Cruiser carries a complement of the Chapters motor pool. You're also right about it not shifting it significantly either way, too.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Space marines don't stand a chance in hell. To avoid complications let's stick with comparables. An ogre is about an equivalent to an ogryn, there are thousands of ogres in the warhammer world, that alone would stand all over a readily 100 marines. Orc equals feral ork ,there are possibly millions of orcs, enough to drain the marines dry of ammunition,Don,t even get me started on the skaven. Greater daemon equals greater daemon, one of which can sweep away entire units of Marines, so with that we can assuming things with similar stat lines such as dragons would be similarly destructive. A whole chapter might stand a chance but a company? Not even close.

Now you see, you're using logic and common sense in your argument there. I'm afraid that doesn't count for much against one or two around these parts. You're better off saving yourself the trouble and moving on.

Just by turning up the SM prove that the Tyranids exist, So the Squa i mean dwarfs, poof. disappear cause they've all been eaten.
That allows the Orc's to pour down the mountains and Skaven to rise up to destroy the Empire, which should lead to less chaos troops. Undead are probably the easiest to take out, Burn the Elves to the ground. Ogre's and giants shot to bits from a km away.
Just for reference the size of the army in Wolf of Sigmar (not sure when that is in the time line) when the Skaven almost destroyed the Empire was about 10000 men. But wizards and magik you say, nope they had no wizards. A magik hammer, but no wizards.
I dont have a problem with 100 SM destroying that many.
SM vs Warhammer, is like Guard vs SM in 40k. Blown to bits before they can get anywhere near them.

People keep saying how they can drop pod in and kill the leaders, please explain how you can;
A) retrieve said drop pods if dropping into an army or do you have plot armor that allows you to have unlimited drop pods
B) Drop pod under ground to fight the skaven...

All if would essentially take for all the slann to wake up and make it rain meteors and comets 24/7, sure it's not the most effective tactic in the world, but the sheer amount of failing rocks will destroy anything

Without orbital support the space marines have no chance.


With orbital support...

Would flying to the nearest asteroid belt and nudging some extinction class rocks into the planets path be considered orbital bombardment?

 Desubot wrote:
Would flying to the nearest asteroid belt and nudging some extinction class rocks into the planets path be considered orbital bombardment?

Shrewd. I should't think so.

SM Chapters really need to be 10,000 minimum for it to make even a modicum of sense for them being able to conduct planetary-scale independent operations (which they do in fluff all the time). Way it stands right now a Company of Marines couldn't capture New York State, nevermind a planet (which they regularly do in fluff as well).

Demons, orcs, magic, tactics, Slaan...

Didn't you heard guys?

WHFB world is a toast already!
.....

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DRAIGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
is on his way there !

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
n ogre is about an equivalent to an ogryn, Orc equals feral ork ,Greater daemon equals greater daemon

Can you source all that?

Game mechanics are a moot point since then you're arguing Knight plate armour is superior to Terminator Armour.

When I see things like Empire heroes whacking down Orc Warlords without issues I think I have very good reason to suspect that WHFB races are very much not equal to their 40K equivalents.

 tomball0706 wrote:
People keep saying how they can drop pod in and kill the leaders, please explain how you can;
A) retrieve said drop pods if dropping into an army or do you have plot armor that allows you to have unlimited drop pods
B) Drop pod under ground to fight the skaven...

All if would essentially take for all the slann to wake up and make it rain meteors and comets 24/7, sure it's not the most effective tactic in the world, but the sheer amount of failing rocks will destroy anything

Whilst as far as I am aware it is never discussed in the fluff, it is widely believed that marines can retrieve said drop pods, they can retrieve vehicles from the ground, they must be able to retrieve them also.

Secondly, when it comes to building new vehicles, I assume drop pods are churned out by the dozen, and probably take very little time in comparison to other machinery for the chapter, so again, they can probably replace them quite fast. Though, in this scenario, it would require the marines to have a forge ship which they don't have.

Yeah, drop pods with skaven is a problem.....

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Whilst as far as I am aware it is never discussed in the fluff, it is widely believed that marines can retrieve said drop pods, they can retrieve vehicles from the ground, they must be able to retrieve them also.

Yes, but only once the invasion is successful and after the dust has settled... i.e. the Marines go in fast and hard, take out and/or secure key strategic objectives and then either hold until support arrives or pull out entirely and wait for the Guard to mop up. Only then, once the territory is firmly captured, can any kind of salvage begin. However, in this scenario there is no support, no reinforcements to relieve the strike force, no full scale invasion... just one company going in on their own. Using drop pods in this case does nothing except hasten the Marine's inevitable demise. If their goal is to survive as long as possible, hit-and-run raids using bikes and speeders is their only real option, and even that will be of limited use and subject to their far from limiltless supplies.

Secondly, when it comes to building new vehicles, I assume drop pods are churned out by the dozen, and probably take very little time in comparison to other machinery for the chapter, so again, they can probably replace them quite fast. Though, in this scenario, it would require the marines to have a forge ship which they don't have.

You said so yourself, that isn't the case in this scenario. They will only have a handful at most, and their use will be a one-time only deal.

Just going to post this link here:

http://www.demographia.com/dm-lon31.htm

... and point out that the population of London exceeded 1 million people in the 19th century, and numbered 40-50K in the 14th century.

That's just 1 city, and fairly equivalent to Altdorf. You'd also want to look at the other Old World cities and their real-world inspirations (Prague, Venice, Copenhagen, Moscow, etc) and the era in which they exist in the Old World (some cities, for example, are more Renaissance than others). This will help determine a rough idea of the population available and the numbers of soldiers that can be levied.

In the end, though, the Space Marines are f*cked. They don't pack enough fuel or ammo to deal with the Old World.

 Desubot wrote:
Would flying to the nearest asteroid belt and nudging some extinction class rocks into the planets path be considered orbital bombardment?

Rocks are NOT ‘free’, citizen.

Firstly, you must manoeuvre the Emperor’s naval vessel within the asteroid belt, almost assuredly sustaining damage to the Emperor’s ship’s paint from micrometeoroids, while expending the Emperor’s fuel.

Then the Tech Priests must inspect the rock in question to ascertain its worthiness to do the Emperor’s bidding. Should it pass muster, the Emperor’s Servitors must use the Emperor’s auto-scrapers and melta-cutters to prepare the potential ordinance for movement. Finally, the Tech Priests finished, the Emperor’s officers may begin manoeuvring the Emperor’s warship to abut the asteroid at the prepared face (expending yet more of the Emperor’s fuel), and then begin boosting the stone towards the offensive planet.

After a few days of expending a prodigious amount of the Emperor’s fuel to accelerate the asteroid into an orbit more fitting to the Emperor’s desires, the Emperor’s ship may then return to the planet via superluminous warp travel and await the arrival of the stone, still many weeks (or months) away.

After twiddling away the Emperor’s time and eating the Emperor’s food in the wasteful pursuit of making sure that the Emperor’s enemies do not launch a deflection mission, they may finally watch the ordinance impact the planet (assuming that the Emperor’s ship does not need to attempt any last-minute course correction upon the rock, using yet more of the Emperor’s fuel).


Given a typical (class Bravo-CVII) system, we have the following:

Two months, O&M, Titan class warship: 4.2 Million Imperials

Two months, rations, crew of same: 0.2 MI

Two months, Tech Priest pastor: 1.7 MI

Two months, Servitor parish: 0.3 MI

Paint, Titan class warship: 2.5 MI

Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.9 MI

Total: 9.8 MI


Contrasted with the following:

5 warheads, magna-melta: 2.5 MI

One day, O&M, Titan class warship: 0.3 MI

One day, rations, crew of same: 0.0 MI

Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.1 MI

Total: 2.9 MI


Given the same result with under one third of the cost, the Emperor will have saved a massive amount of His most sacred money and almost a full month of time, during which His warship may be bombarding an entirely different planet.

The Emperor, through this – His Office of Imperial Outlays – hereby orders you to attend one (1) week of therapeutic accountancy training/penance. Please report to Areicon IV, Imperial City, Administratum Building CXXI, Room 1456, where you are to sit in the BLUE chair.


For the Emperor,

Bursarius Tenathis,

Purser Level XI,

Imperial Office of Outlays.

(from WD 227)

Exalted. That was, perhaps, the best use of that article I've seen in a long time.

Same here. Praise this glorious post.

@BrianDavion
Nice, exalted. I will also see about reporting for my reorientation.

@Thread
This thread is pretty crazy. The SM are so low numbered that you could not even put a single marine with every major faction leader. You better believe any faction leader would gather multiple Lv4 mages each of who could tear a marine apart with their mind. You cannot subjugate anything if you cannot occupy and put at least 1 trusted individual in charge of it.

The elves being burned to the ground is pretty goofy as most of their lords has easy access to ward saves. Coming down and killing any one prince would be pretty difficult and if that leader is Teclis and he sees your drop pod or gak coming at him it is definitely going to be crushed/zapped/etc. with minimal effort.

An entire chapter could have some hope of it as they might have enough people to capture, hold, and indoctrinate the humans and therefore capture the planet over the course of decades with massive human armies.

The grey knights would be awesome if psykers can use magick. A whole chapter of magick users, ouch.

Or a single chapter master with the unlimited resources of the IoM behind him to simply bribe WHFB forces might be able to do it.

Even with orbital bombardment the daemons of chaos and ork infestation would require exterminatus not subjugation.

I keep hearing "100 marines" but you are forgetting the captain, chaplain, librarian, 2 tech marines, dreadnought, 3 thawks, 10 rhinos, landraider and 2 predators, and even thats under strength for a company. the captain is never without his own command squad, there are on average 3 dreadnoughts per company, there are also a retinue of servitors for each vehicle in the armory, plus whatever pilots and drivers for the vehicles. Im not siding with the marines, i for one think they should just weaken the keslivite border and let chaos take them all then exterminate the thing. they have no chance outside destroying the planet from earth, but for those who DO believe they have a chance take the fullness of the company into account. Theres more than 100 men, the drivers for the vehicles are full battle-brothers too why cannot they fight? plus, the landraider crew doesnt even need to be in it and it could stop an ork WAAAGGGGHHH for christs sake. Take things into account besides just the line infantry. all in all? id say an easy 150 full battle brothers (including drivers and dreadnoughts). now its not a big difference but every little bit helps eh?

 ansacs wrote:
@BrianDavion
Nice, exalted. I will also see about reporting for my reorientation.

@Thread
This thread is pretty crazy. The SM are so low numbered that you could not even put a single marine with every major faction leader. You better believe any faction leader would gather multiple Lv4 mages each of who could tear a marine apart with their mind. You cannot subjugate anything if you cannot occupy and put at least 1 trusted individual in charge of it.

The elves being burned to the ground is pretty goofy as most of their lords has easy access to ward saves. Coming down and killing any one prince would be pretty difficult and if that leader is Teclis and he sees your drop pod or gak coming at him it is definitely going to be crushed/zapped/etc. with minimal effort.

An entire chapter could have some hope of it as they might have enough people to capture, hold, and indoctrinate the humans and therefore capture the planet over the course of decades with massive human armies.

The grey knights would be awesome if psykers can use magick. A whole chapter of magick users, ouch.

Or a single chapter master with the unlimited resources of the IoM behind him to simply bribe WHFB forces might be able to do it.

Even with orbital bombardment the daemons of chaos and ork infestation would require exterminatus not subjugation.

To be fair, a hundred legionnaires of the Damned could do this fairly easily.

I would actually say that an entire company could do the job, but only if it were some of the Chaos legions that were used. Word Bearers would have an easy time of forming a massive, planet-consuming cult out of the throngs of ignorant peasants. Night Lords would play their trademark shadow games and bring the larger population centers to heel out of sheer wanton terror before taking over a place and using the populace as an army. Alpha Legion pretty much the same but with more subtlety.

Black Legion would run straight into the Ork homelands 13 separate times and get wiped out to a man.

 bossfearless wrote:
I would actually say that an entire company could do the job, but only if it were some of the Chaos legions that were used. Word Bearers would have an easy time of forming a massive, planet-consuming cult out of the throngs of ignorant peasants. Night Lords would play their trademark shadow games and bring the larger population centers to heel out of sheer wanton terror before taking over a place and using the populace as an army. Alpha Legion pretty much the same but with more subtlety.

Black Legion would run straight into the Ork homelands 13 separate times and get wiped out to a man.

Then of course there's Chaos mutations, where one out of a hundred (maybe even more) may just be straight-up invincible or completely regenerative.

Er, the Warhammer fantasy planet already has Chaos on it. Hell, it's probably more chaos-corrupted than most worlds in the WH40k galaxy that isn't already inside the warp (huge entire chunks of the place are practically one with the warp). So the warhammer fantasy plant already has cults out of the trongs of ignorant peasants, already deals with sheer wanton terror on a regular basis, and already has to deal with chaos mutations where one out of a hundred (maybe even more) may just be straight-up invincible or completely regenerative. Yet they're still kickin' and surviving.

The only reason why a Chaos marine group would have more success than a loyalist marine group is because they could hook up with and bolster the chaos forces already present on the planet for some fun chaos team-up power. If they instead try to conquer those chaos powers instead of team up with them, they aren't going to be nearly as successful (especially if we're including Chaos Daemons, who are probably literally the same chaos daemons that are causing so much trouble in the WH40k universe now that it's been semi-canonized in that Draigo short story that the two share the same warp. What hope does a single company of marines, chaos or otherwise, have fighting against a planet that has Skarbrand, Fateweaver, AND Khugath on it?)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


Can you source that they are equally powerful in both universes?

And no, game mechanics certainly do not count.

Because if Daemonettes can tear up Terminator armour but have problems with a knight's plate armour, I suspect something is fishy.

Daemonettes don't have problems tearing through a knight's plate armor. Terminator armor is the 40K equivalent to Full Plate (where PA is regular Plate Mail, and Carapace is a suit of Plate-and-mail, or half-plate).

Also, Daemonettes are taking greater pleasure in peeling someone out of platemail than they would just straight kill-punching them.

Anfauglir wrote:
You're welcome. And don't think for one second that I'll hesitate to furnish you with continued gifts of wisdom and advice for as long as your posts cry out for more help.

Keep me updated whenever you post something with Wisdom in it. I can wait. Someday, you will provide what you promised. Am sure.

Psienesis wrote:Just going to post this link here:

http://www.demographia.com/dm-lon31.htm

... and point out that the population of London exceeded 1 million people in the 19th century, and numbered 40-50K in the 14th century.

That's just 1 city, and fairly equivalent to Altdorf. You'd also want to look at the other Old World cities and their real-world inspirations (Prague, Venice, Copenhagen, Moscow, etc) and the era in which they exist in the Old World (some cities, for example, are more Renaissance than others). This will help determine a rough idea of the population available and the numbers of soldiers that can be levied.

In the end, though, the Space Marines are f*cked. They don't pack enough fuel or ammo to deal with the Old World.

Basically Altdorf is a mid-european city. Not a city of a centralized Island...
Knowing GW's Maps and sense of scale, I don't trust them to pick the era you are thinking of.
They had planets filled with billions of humans and IG recruted "a million". Wouldn't bet their take on warhammer recrutement is better.



How about finally someone putting the numbers from GW-publications of Warhammer Fantasy into this thread ?
For Example: how many swords could Sigmar call upon ? Answer : ???

The key word is pacify.

Marines don't capture ground, hold territory or engage in meat grinder battles (that's what the IG is for).
I reckon a series of surgical strikes, targeting leadership and major threats would be enough to pacify the world. In particular, Humans and Ogres would quickly be cowed by a seemingly unbeatable enemy striking and retreating.
As such, I feel the major threats exist as Chaos Daemons, Slann Priests, Orcs, and possibly very powerful Vampires. These forces would need exterminating, and the diversity and numbers makes it a tough fight.
One Company might be able to pacify the Warhammer world, but it would be close- two would undoubtedly succeed.

You know that taking out the leaders of Warhammer don't stop the most powerful of citizens (that is, PCs) from taking action, right? In fact, that is more like the catalyst of a bunch of multi-career PCs rolling up, taking stock of the situation, and then whipping out some Mastery 4 magics, or Old Slaan Crystal Weapons (like lasguns, but worse) and putting the hurt on some Space Marines.

 CadianXV wrote:

I reckon a series of surgical strikes, targeting leadership and major threats would be enough to pacify the world.

I think you greatly underestimate just how much leadership (including back-up leaders that would be more than happy to take the current leaders' places) exists in the Warhammer world and just how STRONG (both physically, in terms of awareness, intellectually, and in some cases, magically) a lot of those leaders and their retinues ARE. Heck, in terms of numbers alone 100 or so space marines would probably be out of ammunition by the time they only got done with a fraction of the leadership, assuming they somehow weren't killed in the process.

The Warhammer Fantasy world is almost (almost. Not quite) as grimdark as WH40k, and its denizons have adapted to match. They have proper security precautions and military strategies in place to deal with worse case scenarios (of which many beings on the planet, such as Dark Elves or Chaos, are on par with a team of stealthy marines in terms of the havoc they could do).

Furthermore, there are a ton of factions out there that won't give a gak about their leadership taken out and will fight to the end. Skaven (good luck finding enough ammo to take out that), ogres (they don't even have leadership in the first place), Tomb Kings, Chaos, Dwarves (once you piss them off, they'll never be pacified until every last one is dead), elves and Bretonians (their leadership in some cases are their GODS. Take that out and you can bet the rest of the elves will fight to the last elf and the Brets to the last knight), etc.

About the only leader you might create a turmoil with if you kill him is Emperor Franz, and that's assuming you can get past his huge ass dragon, griffon, and genius intellect first. Even then, congrats. You still have like, 12 factions left to go.

(as an aside, I don't think marines would be satisfied with just pacifying the Warhammer world anyways. For all those filthy non-human xenos on it like those skaven and elves, complete 100% extermination is the only option for a loyal servant of the Emperor)

There are more Skaven in the Old World than there are stars in the night sky.

And they are small, and live in small places...

... and carry flamethrowers that make you grow tentacles and flaming skull heads and/or degenerate into Chaos Spawn.

They also have plague-bombs, as if they were Nurglites, excepting they aren't, they serve the Horned Rat.

 1hadhq wrote:
Keep me updated whenever you post something with Wisdom in it. I can wait. Someday, you will provide what you promised. Am sure.

As much as I enjoy our playful jousting, it's less cute without any actual effort to counter my arguments with your own. Seeing as your posts have dwindled in the latter to leave only to former behind, I think we can now agree that your position is dead in the water, yes? Okay, good.

Basically Altdorf is a mid-european city. Not a city of a centralized Island...
Knowing GW's Maps and sense of scale, I don't trust them to pick the era you are thinking of.

Not sure where you're going with this. We don't need to "trust" GW to pick an era as we already know what eras (roughly) inspire which factions and the bottom line remains the same; one company against multiple civilisations is a no-brainer. The Marines fail. Hard.

How about finally someone putting the numbers from GW-publications of Warhammer Fantasy into this thread ?
For Example: how many swords could Sigmar call upon ? Answer : ???

Why? We already have all the numerical information we need from the OP. It's a full Astartes battle company... against an entire world. Again, it's a no-brainer.

 CadianXV wrote:
The key word is pacify.

Marines don't capture ground, hold territory or engage in meat grinder battles (that's what the IG is for).

It's funny that you identify pacify as the key word, and then fail to grasp what it would actually mean, and take, to accomplish said pacification on a global scale. Without following up any martial victory with significant, lasting measures - for example capturing and holding key ground/territory, the complete subjugation and continuous, simultaneous policing of every single kingdom, lair, province, governing body and any remaining militaries of the various factions and civilisations across the entire planet - they aren't going to pacify squat. Oh yeah, and that's after they've somehow destroyed those factions that simply would not accept attempts at pacification (that's most of them, by the way). So that means engaging in battles. Big ones. Lots of them. Good luck with that.

I reckon a series of surgical strikes, targeting leadership and major threats would be enough to pacify the world.

Again, that failure to grasp what world-wide pacification would actually require rears its ugly head again. Surgical strikes against leadership followed by retreat would do two things; one, have the factions nominate new leaders, and two, make any attempts at pacification even more impossible in the face of the resultant chaos as the power vacuums are filled.

 Anfauglir wrote:

I think we can now agree that your position is dead in the water, yes? Okay, good.

Why should I ?

See I don't try too hard to be serious if a thread is filled with "because magik" , because "numbers we don't give a source but trust me" etc.

 Anfauglir wrote:

How about finally someone putting the numbers from GW-publications of Warhammer Fantasy into this thread ?
For Example: how many swords could Sigmar call upon ? Answer : ???

Why? We already have all the numerical information we need from the OP. It's a full Astartes battle company... against an entire world. Again, it's a no-brainer.

You ask why?

1+1=2
This thread:
100 vs ??? = ???

So NO, without numbers for both ( whfb part and wh40k part ) it is not a "No brainer"; it is rather a debate without using a brain.
( disclaimer: yes I know vs threads aren't worth spending too much time on. )

Games workshop: 1 Marine per world is enough ( wh 40k ). Planets in 40k have populations in billions. So 100 Marines are ?
Maybe whfb and wh40k aren't operating on the same system?

The Space Marines are outnumbered, several million times over, by one army that carries equipment on par with their own.

This would be the clans of the Skaven, which pack warp-fire weapons that give not a single feth about power armor or space-age super-metals, because the Warp does not give a feth about such things.

So you hose a Marine down with a Warp-Fire thrower, and if it doesn't immediately kill him, it mutates him into Chaos Spawn. Or his armor gains malignant sentience and eats him. Or it turns his boltgun into a fistful of sausages or flowers. Or it turns his eyeballs into an assload of flies. Or any one of a thousand other options of Chaos Mutations from Warhammer Fantasy.

Did I mention that there are millions of Skaven? Because there are. They live (and breed and populate) like rats. Because they are.

Send the world eaters!! They would relish in the opportunity of that much hand to hand, and using magic on them would just spur them on :p

But for the question one company would make a huge dent but I doubt it would destroy the whole population

I highly doubt that the highly defended factions like the Dwarves or Elves could be 'strategically hit' by said Space Marines in any way. You would have to grind your way throught he Dwarven tunnels to reach their leadership if you choose to do that kind of attack. And I'd love to see the Space Marines simply 'Drop Pod' into the very magically defended isle of the elves without having more than a serious setback before even hitting the ground.

My answer is no. Space Marines are, in a simple sense, not able to pacify an entire planet with any kind of technology nor the 'Old World' from Fantasy. Those that say so, are just terrible writers and/or fanboys/fangirls.

EXTERMINATUS
Consider the planet pacified.

Pacify? Certainly. Wipe out all sentient species on the planet while keeping all natural formations and resources intact? No. If you want to pacify the fantasy world, all you'll need are several dozen strategic strikes to subdue or neutralize the human and abhuman population. Other faction's though, it'll take both that and a hundred major ground advances to destroy resistance, and then after that, months to exterminate them.

Problem is 100 SM can't really do advances nor can they really exterminate them. It just can't be done. Heck, even the Human race wouldn't be the easiet to destroy. The best you could do is destroy the Empire by killing their lord. But there are many wanting to take claim, and that requires ignoring his possible invuln save not to mention defenses and fething magical creatures and mages. Abhumans, depends. Beastmen. I personally can't see them being organized enough to really fall apart by just killing one lord. But exterminating orks? Exterminating Ratling? Exterminating the forces of chaos? Ha! Good luck with that . Simply put, 100 marines can't do it. They can't pacify the world. Nor would they. Logically, they would promptly go EXTERMINATUS on the planet cause, simply put, it is too messed up.

The funny thing is that if they did take out the human leadership it is highly likely the next time they bothered looking the human empire would be the vampire++ empire.

The only faction that taking out the top leadership would cripple them is the tomb kings who purposely do not have easy replacements for their "necromancers".

Even the humans has several layers of lords who are used to working together against common threats and could lead the vast majority of the empire in a fight or call upon enough Lv4 mages to pelt a space ship with meteors.

Well, what about an entire Legion, including Primarch, assuming this is pre-Heresy? Could the Luna Wolves lead by Horus or Thousand Sons lead by Magnus accomplish this?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, what about an entire Legion, including Primarch, assuming this is pre-Heresy? Could the Luna Wolves lead by Horus or Thousand Sons lead by Magnus accomplish this?

Yes.
The librarians would seek out and kill the wisardone by one, and then wverythin else is killed by 1000 terminators and 9000 power armoured marines.

Mcfloonoo wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, what about an entire Legion, including Primarch, assuming this is pre-Heresy? Could the Luna Wolves lead by Horus or Thousand Sons lead by Magnus accomplish this?

Yes.
The librarians would seek out and kill the wisardone by one, and then wverythin else is killed by 1000 terminators and 9000 power armoured marines.

I tend to agree, especially with a Primarch like Magnus who could annihilate countless foes with minimal effort. It would be really, really cool to see the World Eaters lead by Angron fighting millions of Orks ...

Assuming lobby learn Magick. Definitely. Unfortunately due to mass exposure to chaos taint the horus Heresy would start up.

An entire legion could probably do it, if only because that'd be a lot of friggin' space marines (assuming one of the larger legions)

....that said, it'd still take a while to hunt down and destroy all those xenos. I highly doubt the Emperor would be very pleased with using an entire friggin' legion for that long for one planet.

If the Great Crusade or Imperium hypothetically did come across the Warhammer world, I imagine they'd either instigate Exterminatus or they'd run an investigation into why Chaos is so interested in the planet that it'd invest multiple daemon princes and greater daemons on the thing. ....likely leading up to an exterminatus (that said, given how invested the chaos gods are in the planet, I imagine Chaos would run their own counter-strategies to prevent that from happening)

TiamatRoar wrote:
An entire legion could probably do it, if only because that'd be a lot of friggin' space marines (assuming one of the larger legions)

....that said, it'd still take a while to hunt down and destroy all those xenos. I highly doubt the Emperor would be very pleased with using an entire friggin' legion for that long for one planet.

"Suffer not the alien to live"

Nope.By the time they'd be done with orcs and goblins they'd be out of bullets.Melee you say?Last time I checked chainswords need fuel since all they are is chainsaws with sword handles.Bare hands?Skaven will take them down with...warpy things,Elf panzees will kill their leaders with arrows.Dreads and stuff?Enough cannonballs(helblaster volleygun)should eventually take them down.

If we are going by crusade era chapters I voulenteer BA. Sanguinius would prevent them from waltzing into traps and their affinity for melee would make it so they arent outmatched. As for the chainsword running out of fuel? still makes a good blunt object. Plus most battle brothers (of any chapter) carry a combat knife. that and a marine in armor can punch through walls. And dont forget the mass of vehicles the crusade chapters had with them. Cannon balls? heh thats cute my landraider dont give a flying feth.

 1hadhq wrote:
Why should I ?

Hmm, let's see: you refuse to clarify statements that are not clear, you refuse to back up accusations when called out on them, and you gradually filter more and more content out of my posts in your responses until, like in the previous one, all that's left is the quips and cute comments that in no way refute my points or support/advance your own. Frankly, I don't really need any other reasons to stop taking your posts seriously, or spend any more of my time on them. You gave up on the debate. Meaning? You're position is dead. You don't get to stop participating and then wonder why your side is no longer valid. Sorry.

See I don't try too hard to be serious if a thread is filled with "because magik" , because "numbers we don't give a source but trust me" etc.

Okay, that's fine. Doesn't excuse any of the above behaviour, though. If your intentions are to not take it seriously, the correct response to the topic would be "lol" and then move on, not engage in a prolonged debate with the other participants... only to then give up a few pages in and throw out some backtrack response like "yeah well I'm not even being serious anyway because it's silly". It's too late for that. Sorry.

So NO, without numbers for both ( whfb part and wh40k part ) it is not a "No brainer"

Yeah, it really is. The numerical handicap placed on the Marines is so severe that, like I've been explaining over and over, it's simply ridiculous to think that they could triumph even over a single WHFB faction, let alone the entire world. To think or argue otherwise is delusional and laughable. We don't need a global census on every Tom, Dick and Harry to know this. It's one company. Against multiple civilisations. How is this even debatable?

 Chaos Rising wrote:
EXTERMINATUS
Consider the planet pacified.

Exterminatus doesn't count, because it does not pacify, it obliterates. Not the same thing.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Pacify? Certainly.

Well...

If you want to pacify the fantasy world, all you'll need are several dozen strategic strikes to subdue or neutralize the human and abhuman population.

This isn't a viable option, though, as has been pointed out and explained by several other posters.

Other faction's though, it'll take both that and a hundred major ground advances to destroy resistance, and then after that, months to exterminate them.

Which is simply impossible. So, looking back at your opening statement, let's say: Pacify? Certainly not.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Well, what about an entire Legion, including Primarch, assuming this is pre-Heresy? Could the Luna Wolves lead by Horus or Thousand Sons lead by Magnus accomplish this?

Perhaps. An entire pre-Heresey Legion actually have the numbers and supplies to impart a lasting impact on the Warhammer World, destroying the current balance completely so that the setting would no longer resemble itself. Without any naval support their efforts would be extremely tedious and any progress would be very slow, however. Their best bet would be to "go native", carve out a little realm for themselves and then go about using the other factions against one another until they're left on top to be worshipped as Gods. Kind of like in the movie Stargate.

A Legion would be overkill, definitely.

According to Ultramarines strategy doctrine (Source: Know No Fear) a Company is estimated to be adequate to take a planet.

Of course, the Warhammer world is one fethed up planet and one company would not be enough.

But a Legion, including a Primarch?

That your needle can't pierce the walnut's shell does not mean that it's time to bring out the chainsaw.