Poor pain-crazed, self-hating fellow, just dying to get into close combat and RIP AND TEAR the enemies of the Emperor, only to invariably die for the Emperor before he gets there.... How do we improve his sorry lot and make an awesome model a viable unit? There's been a lot of discussion on and off, but I want to tap the Collective Dakka Brain to actually homebrew some solutions, specifically in the form of upgrades/options to the basic Penitent Engine in the current Codex: my self-imposed limitation (which you can feel free to ignore) is "nothing for free. We have to build on top of and around Codex:Adepta Sororitas, not replace the unit that's in there altogether, which means every good thing we add to the unit should come with a points cost.
Options that occur to me:
- Buy Holy NOx to increase the PE's Run move for at least one turn. 5-10 points?
- Buy a more heavily armored chassis to get AV13/12/10. 40 points? Ouch. Maybe it should get a discount for being such a crappy vehicle to begin with.
- Buy a Rosarius Field so the vehicle no longer counts as open-topped or even gets a 4++ save instead of 6++.
- Buy some way to justify Furious Charge ("actuator spasm"?), which it really should have already.....but I'm going to stick with my own rule here and say it'd have to cost something.
Changing to MC would fix a lot. Would be really cool if they could move like beasts. Make sense since they want to get up close and slice the enemy fast.
conker249 wrote: Changing to MC would fix a lot. Would be really cool if they could move like beasts. Make sense since they want to get up close and slice the enemy fast.
This makes sense. A T6 MC with around 3 Wounds would be appropriate. After all, the majority is metal but if you do happen to wound it, the driver is only a (crazed) human. Slap on a 5++ save from some wibbly-wobbly-forcey-fieldy Rosarius related things. Rock and roll.
Pentient engines actually perform badly not cause of their poor rules but cause of a current ruleset and the ammount of cheap s6-7 shooting that made walkers not worth using in most cases. If you make every single walker a mc with t6 and armor 3+ and 3-4 wounds they'll greatly outperform their current selves. So let's just hope ed 6.5 will make vehicles more durable.
The other alternative to making it a monstrous creature and rewriting the whole thing is to give it one of the most broken special rules in the game: Hard to Hit.
amanita wrote: Screw making it an MC. That only compounds bad rules-writing with more bad rules.
Give it a a refractor field for a 5+ save. Give it furious charge. 85 points. Done.
It's already got a 6++ save and S10 attacks, so I'm not sure how Furious Charge would help.
Hmm, as a toned down version of my Hard to Hit suggestion (which was a little extreme and interacts oddly with other rules), how about Jink and Shrouded?
amanita wrote: Screw making it an MC. That only compounds bad rules-writing with more bad rules.
Give it a a refractor field for a 5+ save. Give it furious charge. 85 points. Done.
It's already got a 6++ save and S10 attacks, so I'm not sure how Furious Charge would help.
Hmm, as a toned down version of my Hard to Hit suggestion (which was a little extreme and interacts oddly with other rules), how about Jink and Shrouded?
...Which makes sense how exactly?
The Penitent is not alone in this. Pretty much every walker in the game suffers.
Fix all walkers in one swoop instead of focusing on one.
Making it a MC just further unbalances things. Especially since it actually isn't a monstrous creature at all. Just like how I think WKs and Riptides should not be MCs.
We're not talking about other walkers. Other walkers - Space Marine and Ork Dreadnoughts in particular - lumber across the battlefield slowly on stumpy legs with no knees.
Penitent Engines careen across the battlefield on wild arrays of pistons with far too many joints in highly erratic patterns. I'm suggesting Jink + Shrouded because they are under such frenetic movement that aiming at them is a PITA and the only real hope you have of taking them down is to spray and pray, unless you're a seriously expert marksman or just coat the entire area in explosions. Or guided by the Emperor, I guess.
Furyou Miko wrote: We're not talking about other walkers. Other walkers - Space Marine and Ork Dreadnoughts in particular - lumber across the battlefield slowly on stumpy legs with no knees.
Penitent Engines careen across the battlefield on wild arrays of pistons with far too many joints in highly erratic patterns. I'm suggesting Jink + Shrouded because they are under such frenetic movement that aiming at them is a PITA and the only real hope you have of taking them down is to spray and pray, unless you're a seriously expert marksman or just coat the entire area in explosions. Or guided by the Emperor, I guess.
Okay, if you want it that way, we can say it Immobilises itself on 5+ every turn to represent such a gakky design of movement.
Oh, and if you ever roll a 6 to hit (Jink and shrouded still applies) the shot is resolved as if the model was T3 W1 to represent hitting the exposed pilot.
conker249 wrote:Changing to MC would fix a lot. Would be really cool if they could move like beasts. Make sense since they want to get up close and slice the enemy fast.
Furyou Miko wrote:Hmm, as a toned down version of my Hard to Hit suggestion (which was a little extreme and interacts oddly with other rules), how about Jink and Shrouded?
Furyou Miko wrote: We're not talking about other walkers. Other walkers - Space Marine and Ork Dreadnoughts in particular - lumber across the battlefield slowly on stumpy legs with no knees.
Penitent Engines careen across the battlefield on wild arrays of pistons with far too many joints in highly erratic patterns. I'm suggesting Jink + Shrouded because they are under such frenetic movement that aiming at them is a PITA and the only real hope you have of taking them down is to spray and pray, unless you're a seriously expert marksman or just coat the entire area in explosions. Or guided by the Emperor, I guess.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Okay, if you want it that way, we can say it Immobilises itself on 5+ every turn to represent such a gakky design of movement
koooaei wrote:They're so fast that they move 6'
Yeah, moving like infantry -- 6" base + 6" run -- is definitely an issue. And Conker's idea of making it move as a Beast might be an elegant fix.
But that gives me an idea: How about making them Walkers that move as and get the SRs for Cavalry: That's 12" base move, Fleet, and Hammer of Wrath -- very appropriate for something designed to smash headlong into the enemy. Cavalry also aren't slowed by Difficult Terrain -- but they treat it as Dangerous Terrain, which again strikes me as an appropriate disadvantage for something with the crazy-ass legs and reckless movement style of a Penitent Engine; it's a toned-down version of what Haraldus suggested.
So maybe an enhanced Penitent option -- "High-Power Actuators"? -- that gives them - moves as Cavalry - Fleet - Hammer of Wrath - Jink because holy crap this thing moves fast and erratically That's probably be about 40 points normally, but let' s discount it to 20 because the base Pengine is so badly overcosted. I'm tempted by Rampage, too, which can also be justified by better limb actuators. Add that in and you have maybe a 50-point package, discounted 50% gets you 25 points for a 105-point Pengine.
Or you can take the option to uparmor the Pengine to AV13/12/10 and not open-topped (magical Rosarius field diverts shots from exposed pilot) for 50 points discounted 50% also equals +25.
You just can't take both the uparmor package and the high-speed package, they're either-or for the obvious reason that bolting on more armour requires improving the movement systems just to keep going at the same speed.
Dreadnought 100 +Open-Topped -10 (Normally a bonus, but here a pure negative) -2WS -20 -1Str -10 -1FA -10 -1SA -10 -1I -10 +1A +10 +Heavy Flamer +10 +Powerfist (replace MM) +15 +Heavy Flamer +10 +Rage +10 +Unstoppable +15 (Extra Armour, but better) +Shield of Faith +5
Total: 105 Huh. I... actually didn't expect that.
That means that Penitents are 25pts cheaper than equivalent walkers.
And yeah, some of the problems with it are the inherrent issues with being walkers in 6th, and in part due in part to Str5/6/7 saturation.
And really, I can't think of a reasonable way to fix them.
At the end of the day they're meant to be a fragile beatstick. A method for those who have sinned to die. There's no coming back from this. So giving them extra armour doesn't fit with the fluff, or the models. Nor does giving it a Rosarius (giving rare and expensive protective forcefields, only entrusted to respected, high ranked officials to your disgraced prisoners being sent to die? no.) And what would Furious Charge really do? Cost +10pts, to give +1str on the charge to a Str10 model? Increasing their Run by say, 3", is a maybe, but ultimately, it's a Sentinel drive system. Sentinels can't do it, and this is a cheaper throwaway version.
Making it a Monstrous Creature doesn't make it any better tbh. First, Monstrous Creature is worth 50pts on its own, still moves 6", and generally, you'd only have a 3+ save at best, meaning most things actually shooting at it will ignore its save regardless. AV11 is immune to Str4 and less. To be immune to Str4 as an MC you need to be T8 (which this wouldn't be). At T5-6 (what it would likely be), it's going to be able to be hosed down by pretty much every weapon in the game. And while against some things it'd get a 3+ save, it'll be a lot more vulnerable than it was before. At T7, you're looking at being immun to Str3, but that's not exactly that amazing as is. So yes, you no longer run the risk of being one-shotted, but you're far more fragile. (Just ask any DE player how durable a T7, 3W, 3+ save Talos actually is) And a MC Penitent Engine would also cost around 120pts
The best I can think of, is giving them Scouts. This would represent them recklessly charging the enemy ahead of the rest of the army, and/or coming in from the sides after having been let loose seperately.
Additionally, upgrading their DCCWs to Chainfists or Eviscerators, just to match the model, would make sense.
Edit - COUGHS, adjusted the cost because I made a booboo.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I think -1S is irrelevant since it always has powerfists anyway, Ovion.
It is relevant, because:
1 - It's statted that way. So it's priced that way.
If you ignore it, that's another +10pts to the total.
2 - If it somehow gets 2 weapon destroyeds, it'll be Str5 again.
This is like the whole Feel No Pain thing all over again.
Things are worth different amounts on different units.
A Power Fist is more useful on a S4 model than on a S1 model, yet they shouldn't be priced the same. Neither should +1 (Or, indeed, -1) strength for a model that gets to use it often, and a model that doesn't.
It's going to be difficult to get the Engine into a situation where it will be relevant. At the point where it's lost both weapons, it's almost hullpointed to death anyway.
Ovion wrote: I... actually didn't expect that. That means that Penitents are 45pts cheaper than equivalent walkers.
Nicely done. Totally not the result I wanted, but that only makes it more valuable.
Ovion wrote: At the end of the day they're meant to be a fragile beatstick. A method for those who have sinned to die. There's no coming back from this. So giving them extra armour doesn't fit with the fluff, or the models. Nor does giving it a Rosarius....
Good points. I'm not sure an uparmor package would be entirely unfluffy -- sometimes you really do want to make sure the damn thing lives long enough to make the other guys die for the Emperor before it does -- but it does seem out of character to have a tough Pengine, like a tapdancing Dreadnought., a obsessively tidy Chaos Space Marine, or a pacifist.... well anything in 40K really.
Ovion wrote: Increasing their Run by say, 3", is a maybe, but ultimately, it's a Sentinel drive system. Sentinels can't do it, and this is a cheaper throwaway version.....
Huh. I didn't know it was fluffed as a Sentinel drive train. But if you know it's gonna die on its first mission, you can overclock it mercilitessly. (Well, it's not a computer, it's mechanics, so you'd be removing governors and limiters and... stuff). The Departmento Munitorum is deeply invested in ensuring that Sentinels don't wear out drive train components at rates above specified logistical norms. The Adeptus Ministorum cares about long-term maintainability of Penitent Engines.... not at all.
So I still think there's a place for a fast-and-furious ugprade to represent Ministorum mechanics looking at each other and saying, "feth it, we ain't gonna ever have to fix this gakking thing, it ain't never comin' back, so let's turn that fether up to 11":
12" base move, treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain (you won't slow down but you may break a leg), and gets Hammer of Wrath -- i.e. it becomes a hybrid of Walker and Cavalry. That's three advantages but the Dangerous Terrain thing is a downside, so maybe 25 points? Maybe add Rampage to represent taking all the limiters off the arms so they can thrash like crazy (and will require replacing immediately after the battle, in the unlikely event the PE survives), +10 points? So, not discounting anything, a souped-up Penitent Engine, depending on whether you give it Rampage, is 105 or 115 points.
Ovion wrote: The best I can think of, is giving them Scouts. This would represent them recklessly charging the enemy ahead of the rest of the army, and/or coming in from the sides after having been let loose seperately.
Also very interesting. I do tend to think of Scouts as tactically savvy, not just reckless, though -- there's presumably some way they got that close to the enemy before the battle and didn't get shot doing it....
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS:
BrotherHaraldus wrote: This is like the whole Feel No Pain thing all over again. Things are worth different amounts on different units.....
Absolutely. But I don't think anyone has a truly accurate point-costing model where the costs of upgrading X are affected by the value of Y -- certainly not GW, which seems to wing it gleefully. Ovion's rules of thumb are the best starting point I've been able to find.
Absolutely. But I don't think anyone has a truly accurate point-costing model where the costs of upgrading X are affected by the value of Y -- certainly not GW, which seems to wing it gleefully. Ovion's rules of thumb are the best starting point I've been able to find.
Yup... But then, if I give a Conversion Beamer to a broodlord, I insist that it should not be the same price as for a MotF. Equivalent situation.
Right. The thing is they get away with that because they're the manufacturer... Homebrewers have to "show their work" and at least attempt some systematic working-out of point costs just to show their units shouldn't be laughed off the table.
For Penitent Engine Builds, I'm proposing something.... different to normal.
Use the pricing I've created above, then reduce it by 20%.
So, the base is 105-(105/5)=84.
This base +4pts will be the Homebrew Tax for any changes.
This is how I will be recosting my Penitent Engine Variants, that I will post here and in my Sisters Extended thread!
How about the Crusader or It Will Not Die special rules? The first can be explained by the driving force of the pilot to charge forward seeking redemption and/or death, and the second being pumped full of drugs and crazy? One gives a boost to speed, the other survivability. Not a huge shift, but a little nudge.
IWND is both unfluffy and pointless, it'll explode most of the time anyway.
Crusader perhaps, but it will still die when sneezed on.
The whole 'dies when sneezed on' thing is fluffy but rather unfortunate for the poor Penitent. It is after all a rickety Dreadnought without armour plates and with a big SHOOT ME sign on the head of the pilot.
Is That a Bird?: Penitent Engines are deployed by being dropped directly on top of enemy formations (or as close as conditions, and luck, allow). Penitent Engines are kept in reserve at the start of the game and come onto the board as part of Reserves. The PE is treated as arriving via Deep Strike.
If the Penitent Engine(s) roll successfully to deploy, place a small blast marker at the desired point of entry. This point may be on top of enemy units or in Dangerous (but not Impassable) Terrain.
Make a Ld test for the PE. If successful, it arrives on-target and delivers one S10 AP4 hit to any model wholly or partially under the blast marker as it lands directly on top of them.
If this Ld test fails, it scatters 2d6" as normal. If this would Scatter the PE into Impassable Terrain or off the table, it Mishaps.
Berzerk!: The PE may Assault as soon as the model is placed on the table after it has arrived via Deep Strike. The PE has a charge move of 6"+2d6" and gains +1A if charging before entering melee. Also, if the PE begins its phase in base contact with an enemy model after arriving via Deep Strike, it may immediately initiate close combat, and thus does not permit Overwatch or Supporting Fire to be used against it.
Is That a Bird?: Penitent Engines are deployed by being dropped directly on top of enemy formations (or as close as conditions, and luck, allow). Penitent Engines are kept in reserve at the start of the game and come onto the board as part of Reserves. The PE is treated as arriving via Deep Strike.
If the Penitent Engine(s) roll successfully to deploy, place a small blast marker at the desired point of entry. This point may be on top of enemy units or in Dangerous (but not Impassable) Terrain.
Make a Ld test for the PE. If successful, it arrives on-target and delivers one S10 AP4 hit to any model wholly or partially under the blast marker as it lands directly on top of them.
If this Ld test fails, it scatters 2d6" as normal. If this would Scatter the PE into Impassable Terrain or off the table, it Mishaps.
Berzerk!: The PE may Assault as soon as the model is placed on the table after it has arrived via Deep Strike. The PE has a charge move of 6"+2d6" and gains +1A if charging before entering melee. Also, if the PE begins its phase in base contact with an enemy model after arriving via Deep Strike, it may immediately initiate close combat, and thus does not permit Overwatch or Supporting Fire to be used against it.
That would AT LEAST double the cost of the Penitent Engine...
BrotherHaraldus wrote: IWND is both unfluffy and pointless, it'll explode most of the time anyway.
Crusader perhaps, but it will still die when sneezed on.
The whole 'dies when sneezed on' thing is fluffy but rather unfortunate for the poor Penitent. It is after all a rickety Dreadnought without armour plates and with a big SHOOT ME sign on the head of the pilot.
Do they still have their damage output? I’ve faced them across the table a few times, and have a healthy respect for them. Not under the new codex though, not sure how much they’ve changed. All it takes is one time letting them get to CC and watch them blenderize stuff to make an impression. Assuming you live thorough the burning. They are your classic eggshell armed with sledgehammer.
Making them sturdy detracts from their core identity. I mean, they are walkers that aren’t supposed to protect their pilot. It’s not like they are giant walking slabs of armor. They are half naked crazy loons strapped to the front of a pain machine. How do you make that tougher from a game mechanic POV? Can vehicles get a FNP save? That’s why I suggested IWND.
The other option is to close to the enemy faster. Only a few ways to do that, and not all fit walkers.
CC and walkers are both in a poor place in this edition, so this whole endeavor is an uphill battle. On the bright side, squadroning is not as bad as it used to be. So you can go with the IG motto of “If it’s worth taking, it’s worth taking three; One will die, one will miss, but the third will get the job done"
Psienesis wrote: ... which is why I propose dropping them directly onto the enemy, either by aircraft or hydraulic catapults.
I don't think they should all have Deep Strike tbh.
I think maybe, if you were to change default Peni's, Scout, and +3" to run moves would be a olid change. +15pts (less that pesky 20%), for a 92pt unit.
Scout, though, does not do much for getting them into melee or surviving once they get there. I'm of the opinion that the PE needs to go for an all-out blitz, cause it's not going to survive more than 1 further round.
You could even rename the SR to "Descent of the Damned" to keep with the religious flavor.
Psienesis wrote: ... which is why I propose dropping them directly onto the enemy, either by aircraft or hydraulic catapults.
I don't think they should all have Deep Strike tbh.
I think maybe, if you were to change default Peni's, Scout, and +3" to run moves would be a olid change. +15pts (less that pesky 20%), for a 92pt unit.
Lol, I think that was an innocent (though amusing) mistake.
Still, you could even have the catapult be modeled on the table, built onto an old Rhino Chassis, that flings PE (and other heretics) at the enemy. The PE is the only one that actually survives the trip, but maybe a half-dozen other heretics being flung at them might cause Morale issues against certain armies.
Not trolling.
It moves you 6" closer pre-turn one, or lets you outflank with them (Outflanking 6 Heavy Flamers that next turn are going to charge and wreck whatever it touches seems like a fantastic threat).
I look at the PE as a tool for up-close face-wrecking, and the problem it currently faces is that it is too fragile to actually get up close and wreck face.
I don't think Scout is going to be a cure for that, because I'm pretty sure it's going to get Overwatched to death when it begins its charge, and Outflanking doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as these things aren't exactly sneaky, it's a hard rule to justify fluff-wise.
That's why I'm thinking of letting an upgraded Pengine move like cavalry (12" base move plus Fleet). I'm not so worried about BS:1 Overwatch shots as I am about multiple turns of heavy weapons fire as un-upgraded Pennies slog across the board.
I look at the PE as a tool for up-close face-wrecking, and the problem it currently faces is that it is too fragile to actually get up close and wreck face.
I don't think Scout is going to be a cure for that, because I'm pretty sure it's going to get Overwatched to death when it begins its charge, and Outflanking doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as these things aren't exactly sneaky, it's a hard rule to justify fluff-wise.
It's very unlikely to get Overwatched to death.
Immune to Str1-4, means it ignores Lasguns, Bolters etc.
If it's assaulting a unit with say... a Missile Launcher, is only going to hit on a 6, and only pen on 4+, with a 6+ Invun and a 1/3 chance of exploding.
So on Overwatch from a Missile Launcher (or any Str8), that'll be a 2.3% (or 1 in 43) chance of exploding.
If charging Tau, it'll be a 2.3% of a glance, meaning you'll need 129 shots in overwatch from Pulse weapons to enusre the kill of each healthy Peni.
I'm not.
But even my entire Tau armies infantry shooting (72 Firewarriors, supported by 2 Ethereals for 216 shots, if all 72 are within 15" of the unit when it declared its charge), would only drop 2 in overwatch fire.
You really don't need to worry about shooting from overwatch.
(Hell, at the end of the day, Overwatch really isn't all that. Yes it can hurt some squishy units, and Tau Overwatch can be daunting with Supporting Fire, but even with a bucket of dice, only 1 in 6 are going to even hit.)
I'm going to second (third?) the Cavalry idea, actually. A potential 24" assault range will really help, especially with the inherent reroll to Run included with Fleet. Turn one, go to a midpoint terrain piece, turn two, hell-for-leather into an enemy unit.
Penitent Engines aren't as blendery as they used to be because they lost their additional attacks. I would say that they either need that back (or even the full-on Blood Talon effect) or they need Rampage, if you really think that's too powerful.
>> I4 would help too. Or some kind of... hmm. How about;
Brutal Mechanism: The Penitent Engine inflicts Hammer of Wrath at AP2. If the Engine's Hammer of Wrath kills a model, the rest of that model's unit is reduced to Initiative 1 for the remainder of the phase as they wipe the splatter from their eyes.
Well, making its fragility less relevant, i.e. not crippling, is the point. Making it irrevelant would indeed totally change the character of the unit.
And I see Kooael's point about making it a Maulerfiend clone. At least it has a less stupid name (who comes up with the names for Chaos stuff?)
SisterSydney wrote: Well, making its fragility less relevant, i.e. not crippling, is the point. Making it irrevelant would indeed totally change the character of the unit.
And I see Kooael's point about making it a Maulerfiend clone. At least it has a less stupid name (who comes up with the names for Chaos stuff?)
Well... It rolls off the tongue nicely. And I am not English so the exact meaning of the name matters less to me.
I think, perhaps, the best way to fix the PE is to give it an extra 6" of movement, or perhaps 3d6 + 6 on the charge (rather than 2d6) to reflect its drug-crazed mechanical nature, and a 5++ save (again, drug-crazed heretic not caring that his/her arm has been shot off or the machine itself not caring that its "pilot" is dead already).
This gives them a chance to get into melee, and a fighting chance to stay stuck in, but is fairly easily overcome with weight of fire, which is, I think, appropriate for a machine such as this.
You want... a 9 to 24 inch charge range... Average of 16-17 inch charge, plus 6 inch movement...
Jetbikes still only get 2d6, so I'm going with no on that one.
Fleet, or 3d6 and discard the lowest may be fine.
Or just fleet.
It needs to get into combat faster and needs a higher initiative. When a crazed buzzsaw wielding death machine can't survive long enough to actually attack a squad of tacticals, something is wrong.
dadakkaest wrote: Make it's act of faith that it ignores all damage other than penetrating hit/explodes results until the beginning of the next game turn.
Do they have an AoF? If so, what is it? I thought that the kind of people that ended up strapped to these things had some lack of faith issues...
Ok, as promised, I'll post the Homebrew Penitent Engine related stuff I've done here, to give people ideas (Also posted in my Sisters Extended Thread here. Starting with the HQ variant - Valeriya the Damned.
Spoiler:
Army: Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) BG: Valeriya the Damned - The unforgiven one. She who gave the command that damned an entire Order of the Faithful. Interred in a specially modified Penitent Engine designed to be her tomb, extending her suffering rather than ending it quickly, she lives in internal torment - the only small respite felt each time she rends the enemies of the Imperium. Valeriya's four armed Penitent Engine bears an Iron Maiden style tomb encasing the front, protecting her from a merciful death.
FO: HQ Squad: Valeriya the Damned Unit: Valeriya the Damned, Points Per: 200, Models: 1*, Vehicle Type: Walker (Character), WS-5, BS-3, S-5(10), FA-12, SA-11, RA-10, HP-4 , I-3, A-3(6). Valeriya the Damned may not be used to fulfil the the Mandatory HQ slot on a Force Organisation Chart and cannot be selected as the Warlord of an army. Valeriya the Damned may take a retinue of up to two Penitent Defenders. You may take up to two squads of Penitent Engines as Troops.
Wargear: Four Dreadnought CCW ( FDCCW: Four Heavy Flamers)
Special Rules: ( C: Precision Shots ) ( C: Precision Strikes ) ( C: Look Out, Sir (4+) ) Rage Battle Frenzy Unstoppable Shield of Faith It Will Not Die
Battle Frenzy: For every unsaved Wound Valeriya the Damned inflicts in Close Combat, she immediately makes an additional attack. These extra attacks do not generate further additional attacks in the same way.
I decided that she should get to keep Battle Frenzy, being a Special Character. In turn, I've made it so she can no longer be the Madatory HQ and Warlord - though if people think that her being a Mandatory HQ and Warlord is fine, then I'm happy to drop it!
But she allows you to bring 2 squads of Peni's as troops, freeing up those Heavy Slots, and can bring a pair of Defenders (regular Penitent Engines with Heavy Bolters), that I will add presently.
dadakkaest wrote: Make it's act of faith that it ignores all damage other than penetrating hit/explodes results until the beginning of the next game turn.
Do they have an AoF? If so, what is it? I thought that the kind of people that ended up strapped to these things had some lack of faith issues...
They don't have an AoF, no. Suggesting giving Penitent Engines an AoF shows nothing but a remarkable lack of knowledge about the subject at hand.
Maybe their rules are a mechanical interpretation of the models incredibly stupidly weak ankle joins..........their AV is because as they rock back from the impact, their feet snap off and they flounder.
AegisGrimm wrote:Maybe their rules are a mechanical interpretation of the models incredibly stupidly weak ankle joins..........their AV is because as they rock back from the impact, their feet snap off and they flounder.
Ha! "Option: Better model: +50 points & +50£.
2. Metal
Ovion wrote:Ok, as promised, I'll post the Homebrew Penitent Engine related stuff I've done here, to give people ideas ....
The idea of a PE character is pretty awesome.
Valeriya's four armed Penitent Engine bears an Iron Maiden style tomb encasing the front, protecting her from a merciful death.....
Ok, that's a pretty fething metal way to justify an uparmored & non-open topped Pengine.
Ovion wrote: she allows you to bring 2 squads of Peni's as troops, freeing up those Heavy Slots....
Scoring Penitent Engines seems... out of character. They seem a tad crazed to hold objectives. How about making them available as both Elites and Heavy Support, the way a Master of the Forge does for Marine Dreadnoughts?
3. Acts of Faith?
Nevelon wrote:
dadakkaest wrote: Make it's act of faith that it ignores all damage other than penetrating hit/explodes results until the beginning of the next game turn.
Do they have an AoF? If so, what is it? I thought that the kind of people that ended up strapped to these things had some lack of faith issues...
Yeah, Nevelon (and Furyou) are right here, an AOF would be out of character -- it's fluffed as requiring extraordinary purity and focus: You have to be impure to be put in a Penitent Engine (barring a gross miscarriage of justice, which in the imperium of course NEVER HAPPENS), and once you're in the perpetual torture engine I think focusing is kinda hard too.
4. Speed Kills
MWHistorian wrote:It needs to get into combat faster and needs a higher initiative. When a crazed buzzsaw wielding death machine can't survive long enough to actually attack a squad of tacticals, something is wrong.
SisterSydney wrote:Fleet is good. Then moves like Cavalry or Agile. Don't have my BRB handy so I can't give exact inches those two options would give...
Ok, now I have all my references in a row, although I haven't worked out the math of what Fleet does for average charge distance.
Current Pengine moves as Infantry: 6" base, plus 1d6" Run or2d6" Charge =
move & run range 7-12", averaging 10"
charge threat range 8-18", averaging 15"
Agile: 6" base plus Run twice for 2d6" or2d6 charge =
move & run range 8-18", averaging 13"
(or change run & shoot in same phase) charge threat threat 8-18", averaging 13"
Cavalry: 12" base, plus 1d6" Run or2d6" Charge, rerollable with Fleet =
move & run range 13-18", averaging 16
(plus treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous, means it can move faster than infantry but risks immobilizing itself) charge threat range 14"-24", averaging, um, with Fleet, somewhere north of 19"
Moving as Cavalry does the most for the Penitent Engine, I think, and in the fluffiest way, upping base move and thus charge threat range rather than leaving charge threat unchanged while allowing either a superfast run or a normal run, reducing your frenzy voluntarily (what? not for PE) for shooting.
Cavalry movement also adds a nice weakness in that, in its frenzied haste, the thing may break a leg (which as Aegis Grimm points out, the model may do anyway).
Yeah, what Miko said. Unless given a specific rule making them so, they aren't scoring.
And Elites and Heavies get extra Penitents anyway.
Once I'm done, there'll be 5 Flavours of Penitent Engine, and the ability to take 1 in each slot type.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So next, Penitent Defenders:
Spoiler:
Army: Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) BG: Penitent Defenders are meant to be sort of 'rear guard' engines. Unique to the Damned Order Penitent, they have some longer ranged firepower to allow the army to have some defence against rear, or flanking attacks. Charging forward with their fellow Penitents, but with long range sensors and programmed to target any distant threats with shoulder mounted Heavy Bolters.
FO: Elites Squad: Penitent Defender Unit: Penitent Defender, Points Per: 100, Models: 1-3, Vehicle Type: Walker, Open-Topped, WS-4, BS-2, S-5(10), FA-11, SA-11, RA-10, HP-3 , I-3, A-3(4). Wargear: Two Dreadnought CCW ( TDCCW: Two Heavy Flamers) Two Heavy Bolters
Special Rules: Rage Battle Frenzy Unstoppable Rampage Shield of Faith
Costing
Spoiler:
Penitent Engine - Adjusted 105 +2 Heavy Bolter +20 Sub-total: 125 Penitent: Reduced by 20%
Total: 100
Not much to these ones. Elite slot Penitents with some Heavy Bolters strapped on, because it makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Penitent Defender Zeniths:
Spoiler:
Army: Adepta Sororitas BG: Penitent Defender Zeniths are unique to the Order Penitent, specially programmed to target any aerial threats on the battlefield before moving on to other targets, the engines deploy targeting equipment and AA weapons, providing close air cover to the damned. With two Shoulder Mounted Heavy Bolters and vertically firing back mounted Zenith Missiles.
FO: Heavy Support Squad: Penitent Defender Zenith Unit: Penitent Defender Zenith, Points Per: 120, Models: 1-3, Vehicle Type: Walker, Open-Topped, WS-4, BS-2, S-5(10), FA-11, SA-11, RA-10, HP-3 , I-3, A-3(4). Wargear: Two Dreadnought CCW ( TDCCW: Two Heavy Bolters ) ( TDCCW: Two Heavy Flamers ) 4 Zenith Missiles
Special Rules: Rage Battle Frenzy Unstoppable Rampage Shield of Faith Deploy
Deploy: At the start of each turn the Penitent Engine Defender is not locked in combat, you must declare if the unit is going to Deploy or, Disengage. While Deployed, the Penitent Engine Thunderer may not move, gains Skyfire, +1 to Shield of Faith rolls and counts all shots at Flyers, Skimmers or Winged Monstrous Creatures as Twin-Linked. While Disengaged, the Penitent Engine Thunderer can move normally. If assaulted the Penitent Engine Thunderer automatically disengages. Thunderer Missiles may only be fired if the unit is Deployed. If there is an enemy Flyer, Skimmer or Winged Monstrous Creature on the field at the start of the turn, the Penitent Engine Thunderer must deploy.
Zenith Missiles: A Zenith Missile is a weapon with the following profile: Zenith Missile: Range-48", Str-7, AP-2, Type-Heavy 1, Armourbane, One Shot.
Costing
Spoiler:
Penitent Engine - Adjusted 105 +2 Heavy Bolter +20 +4 Zenith Missles +40 +Deploy (Can't move -10, +1 Invun +10, +Skyfire +15, TL-Specific +5, Must Deploy with -10) +10 Sub-total: 175 Penitent: Reduced by 20%
Total: 140
This one is a Defender, but boasts 4 Skyspear Missiles without Savant Lock to provide some relatively reliable (effectively BS3), AA (Average pen result of 14, with +1 to damage). in return, it can't move when firing at these, as Penitents aren't smart enough at this point, so software says STAND HERE AND SHOOT THAT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Penitent Avengers
Spoiler:
Army: Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) BG: Penitent Avengers are one of several engines of damnation unique to the order. They bear some of the more disturbed or heretical members of the Order. Even more tortured and worked up than the usual victim, the Penitent Avengers charge the enemy first, heralding the Damned Orders arrival in battle.
Ok, that's because the relatively old version I found as a base, was the prototype which went through 3-4 different names..
Also - Skyborne is what lets Jump and Jet units ignore terrain and just go over it, rather than round it when they move.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And lastly, a Repentant Canoness, but who has an ability to improve the Penitent Engines lot:
Spoiler:
The Sister Katterin Magdelene is a Contritioness who was second in command to Valeriya in the Order of the En dernier Défi before it was damned, and one of the few surviving members of the original group. Wielding twin Eviscerators (one heavier and dedicated to destroying armour on vehicles, the other finer with twin chains for rending flesh), she marches on, leading her forces in their endless torment.
FO: HQ Squad: Sister Katterin Magdelene Unit: Sister Katterin, Points Per: 175, Models: 1*, Unit Type: Infantry (Character), WS-5, BS-4, S-4, T-3, W-4, I-3, A-4(5), Ld-10, Sv-3+/6+*. Sister Katterin Magdelene may take a Retinue of 2-9 Repentia Arch-Mistress of Repentance: Repentia Squads become Troops choices You may take one Penitent Engine for each Repentia Squad. These Penitent Engines are each a seperate squad. These squads does not use up a Force Organisation chart selection. Sister Katterin does not benefit from the Look Out Sir rule.
Wargear: Power Armour Fury and Penance Frag Grenades Krak Grenades
Special Rules: ( C: Precision Shots ) ( C: Precision Strikes ) Acts of Faith Independent Character ( IC: Heroic Morale ) Feel No Pain Rage Rampage Zealot ( Z: Fearless ) ( Z: Hatred ) Fury of the Unforgiven Shield of Faith
Fury and Repentance: Twin custom Eviscerators, wielded with righteous rage, they have the following profiles: Fury: Range-, Str-User x2, AP-2, Type-Melee, Shred, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon. Repentance: Range-, Str-User +2, AP-1, Type-Melee, Armourbane, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon.
Fury of the Unforgiven: Such is the fervour and devotion with which Sister Magdelene fights and inspires her squad, that they refuse to fall in combat, pushing themselves ever harder to destroy the enemies of the Emperor This act of Faith is used in the Assault Phase. If successful, the unit gains +1WS and +1 Attack until the end of the phase.
Not sure I like the idea of a PEngine Canoness, especially as most of the people in a PEngine are simply heretics, not SoB-until-recently (that's what Repentia squads are for). The *only* thing I can see the iron-maiden woman being is a Canoness who, spontaneously late in life, exhibited psychic ability.
Abhor the Witch, as the saying goes.
Also... guns on a PEngine sound like a terrible idea. I mean, flamers are pretty stupid, too, but if you stay out of the reach of it, you won't get accidentally hosed with flames during its pain-maddened freakout.
Heavy Bolters, though, shoot for hundreds of meters. Putting these on something that is hopped up on pain-inducing, rage-causing mood shifts and then just throwing it out there in a battle, where your own forces are also fighting, seems like a good way to have a whole lot of "friendly"-fire incidents. Just doesn't seem fluffy to me.
The Damned Order Penitent is an entire Sisters Order that has fallen.
I'm still debating allowing non-penitent units in the force.
An entire order of Repentia, that have been determined irredeemable in life, their only option to keep fighting till dead.
And the one who gave the order that damned them was Valeriya.
She gets to suffer a long time.
But the whole army is basically one big suicide mission, constantly topped up with the ones that the Ecclesiarchy don't think will make it to redeem themselves for service.
The Contritioness' are the leaders of the former order and/or Canoness' that have fallen and been placed there.
The Heavy Bolters are basically like auto-fire on fortifications - computer controlled, with some vague targetting priority from the 'pilot'.
Additionally, their fervour is for redemption, so they'll avoid hitting allies where possible.
Well, "fallen" by the strict standards of the Ecclesiarchy and the Sisterhood -- not necessarily anywhere near "fallen to Chaos."
I like the idea of an entire massive formation of frothing lunatics with chainsaws. But then I'd like to see someone's idea for Chaos Sisters too. And I think it's quite plausible that the Imperium of Man isn't really 10,000 years old. So I kind of roll with the heretics all night and day, baby.
I hate Ovion's fluff with a passion and can only justify it by saying that Valeriya is the one who said that her order was fallen from grace, and that it was because they failed to protect something important rather than because of anything they actually did.
I had the same arguments about the heavy bolters. >> but i figure that they stick them at the front and the only things they can shoot are the enemy, or engines with side armour 11.
Just to keep us more or less on topic (ha!), let's suggest changes to Ovion's "fallen Order" fluff in Ovion's thread about that and keep this thread for discussing variants and upgrades for Penitent Engines.
For the PEngine specifically, give it the Cavalry movement rules, and maybe Jink, to reference its clumsy, staggering gait, and that should do it, really.
It's still a fairly fragile machine, but played right, you could get it up in someone's grill and show them why it is a tactical blunder to fail to protect one's neck.
Errr, let's not call each other bad things... we're imagining a grimdark world of constant conflict, not inhabiting one. (Yes, I know, online it can be hard to tell....).
Setting that aside, the idea of a random ability to get them into combat, as opposed to just improving their Move and/or Charge, is an interesting one.
It would fit with the earlier fluff at least. Penitent Engines in 5th used to have a special rule that they would charge straight toward the closest enemy model D6+6. And would always get into close combat if able.
As Heavy support they're taking up an Exorcist slot. Which is reason enough to leave them on the shelf until the next sisters update sometime around Q1, 2025.
They need to be hit harder, get generally better stats, move faster, and have a stronger punch.
If they had a nice set of special rules, it might balance them out.
Maybe...
Scout (To represent their mad charge before the battle even begins)
Fleet (Once again, a mad charge to the enemy)
+1 or 2 Initiative
Move Through Cover (After all, nothing is going to realistically stop a giant metal machine with chainsaw hands from crashing through it)
And, to top it all off, they should get their old Rampage rules back. +1 Attack for every successful wound. (You don't get bonus bonus attacks, though.)
All of that, and a 15-20 point price drop, and I'd *Maybe* consider taking them. They'd still be really fragile, but they'd at least have a chance of getting into Close Combat and hurting something once they get there. Even then, they wouldn't be an auto-include (Or even a great choice) because they're competing with Exorcists and Retributors, and they're still ridiculously easy to kill.
They're already cheap for what they are (to the tune of 24% cheaper than equivalent units). Adding 75-85pts of rules AND making them cheaper is crazy.
By your logic, it should be a 60pt, WS4, Str10, AV11/11/10 opentopped walker, with Scout, Fleet, I5, Move Through Cover, 2 Heavy Flamers, AP2 CCWsand generates bonus attacks for every wound it makes.
That loadout should be around the 150pt mark (and that's including the discount), not 60 (or, roughly a third of what that would be worth).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Giving it just Scouts and calling it 90pts would be a reasonable solution though.
Ovion wrote: They're not going to get a price drop though.
They're already cheap for what they are (to the tune of 24% cheaper than equivalent units).
Adding 75-85pts of rules AND making them cheaper is crazy.
By your logic, it should be a 60pt, WS4, Str10, AV11/11/10 opentopped walker, with Scout, Fleet, I5, Move Through Cover, 2 Heavy Flamers, AP2 CCWsand generates bonus attacks for every wound it makes.
That loadout should be around the 150pt mark (and that's including the discount), not 60 (or, roughly a third of what that would be worth).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Giving it just Scouts and calling it 90pts would be a reasonable solution though.
And I may try that.
Have you tried PLAYING with Penitent Engines? As they are, they never, ever, ever get into Close Combat unless you are playing against an idiot. A squad of 3 against an equal points value of Lootas, for example, will lose their entire squad in a single average shooting phase. Scout won't change that, because they'll still have to take a few hits. 4 Missile Launchers from a Devistator Squad will kill 1 a turn, a Meltagun kills one 2/3rds of the time that it hits, and even in Close Combat, where they're supposed to excel, a squad of 10 Space Marines have a very good chance to kill one before it gets a chance to fight back. Space Marines. IE the guys who are pretty much crap in Close Combat. Against Eldar or Tau they're even worse. Against Nids, a Flyrant will kill 2-3 in one turn of shooting (12 BS4 Twin-Linked S6 shots against rear armor), for slightly less points than 3 of them. They're so fragile they never, ever do anything, and they cost enough to make them horrendous.
Plus, even once they get into Close Combat, their ideal situation, on a charge they'll only get about 4 Wounds. That's the ideal circumstance. Heavy flamers depend on the target, but will probably add 3-4 more wounds on average. (Against light infantry you'll get more, but then you're using him to kill some of the cheapest models on the board.)
And none of the suggestions I made would actually fix their fragility. I don't want Penitent Engines to be indestructible. What I do want, though, is for them to have a chance to hurt something once they get across the board, and to have a chance to get across the board. Even with massive damage output, their platform is so fragile that it won't matter anyways.
In other words, FETH YES I think it should be a 60pt, WS4, Str10, AV11/11/10 opentopped walker, with Scout, Fleet, I5, Move Through Cover, 2 Heavy Flamers, AP2 CCWs who generates bonus attacks when it causes wounds. (Note that it only gets bonus attacks off of its base stat, not infinite. Just like the rule it had back in the White Dwarf codex.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just for fun, I chose the oldest codex (And the one with the least anti-armor) and decided to see how many units it has that could very, very easily take out Penitent Engines.
From Orks, we get:
Ghazkull Thraka. No matter who gets the charge, he'll take maybe one wound (2 at the most) and kill them all.
Lootas. 15 of them will either wipe out, or nearly wipe out 3 Penitent engines in one turn of shooting.
Tankbustas. Finally! A unit Tankbustas are good against!
Ork Boys. Sure, the Ork Boys themselves can't hurt the Penitent Engines, but the Engines can only kill maybe 7-8 a turn in Close Combat and the Nob with a Power Klaw will kill one Penitent Engine every time he gets to swing.
Dakkajets and Warbuggies. They can reliably kill one a turn, and the Penitent Engines will never get close enough to hit back.
Warbikers. 30 S5 twin-linked shots to the rear armor will Vaporise the penitent engines, who once again are too slow to ever get into assault.
Battlewagons: The Deff Rolla will crush them, if the S7 Large Blast doesn't.
Deff Dreads: Hey look, significantly better walkers!
Killa Kans: Hey look, walkers with similar damage output for half the points!
Looted Wagons: The S7 Large Blast from earlier was bad? For 3 Penitent Engines, 2 Looted Wagons can bring 2 S8 ones.
Big Guns: Cheap, and they will blast apart Penitent Engines before they can get into combat.
(EDIT: I did my math wrong a bit on this. Deff Dreads aren't significantly better, they just get +1 Armor point and a lot more options in exchange for 1 Initiative. They're the same points cost, though, so Dreads are still a much better option. Also, I forgot to mention that you could get 2 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas instead of 1 with a Killkannon, which is probably the better option for killing Penitent engines.)
That's just Orks. Care to try this against a good, recent army? Maybe Eldar?
Yes, I have used them.
My planned 'regular' Army List will see 9 Penitent Engines, and my Homebrew force will include some 40 engines.
I don't really care for much of the 'regular' Sisters stuff tbh, mostly just Penitent units.
But things still need to be costed appropriately.
You're proposing giving it the equivalent of a 21" charge turn 1, that strikes at I5, with 6 attacks at Str10, AP2, and is likely going to generate at least 2 bonus attacks.
For 60pts.
The equivalent speed and number of attacks, (but with Str4 AP2 attacks and T3) would be say... 3 Incubi in a Venom for 131pts.
Or... I can't actually think of anything else that would strike at I5 with an AP2 weapon, at any strength.
Even a Death Company Dread (roughly equivalent base rules, with +1 FA/SA) with Blood Talons is Str6... and AP3, and 6 attacks on the charge at I4... and is 125pts base
So +2 armour, +1I, +1WS, +2BS, effectively -4S, no Shield of Faith +45pts over the Penitent Engine.
Ovion wrote: Yes, I have used them.
My planned 'regular' Army List will see 9 Penitent Engines, and my Homebrew force will include some 40 engines.
I don't really care for much of the 'regular' Sisters stuff tbh, mostly just Penitent units.
But things still need to be costed appropriately.
You're proposing giving it the equivalent of a 21" charge turn 1, that strikes at I5, with 6 attacks at Str10, AP2, and is likely going to generate at least 2 bonus attacks.
For 60pts.
The equivalent speed and number of attacks, (but with Str4 AP2 attacks and T3) would be say... 3 Incubi in a Venom for 131pts.
Or... I can't actually think of anything else that would strike at I5 with an AP2 weapon, at any strength.
Even a Death Company Dread (roughly equivalent base rules, with +1 FA/SA) with Blood Talons is Str6... and AP3, and 6 attacks on the charge at I4... and is 125pts base
So +2 armour, +1I, +1WS, +2BS, effectively -4S, no Shield of Faith +45pts over the Penitent Engine.
The Death Company Dread is also not Dreadfully easy to kill. (Pardon the pun) Penitent Engines only get that 21" charge if you go second. (You can't charge after scouting if you go first.) In that one turn, any half-competent player will destroy it. 11/11/10 Open-topped will get you killed instantly, even with open-topped.
Even under ideal circumstances, they will cause maybe 3 wounds. (If, as you say, it generates 2 bonus attacks, that means about 3 wounds.)
Currently, Penitent Engines die quickly, have no chance of getting to enemy lines, and cause no damage once they get there, and will take out a chunk of your army that would have been much better spent elsewhere.
My suggested Penitent Engines still die quickly, but they have half a chance at getting into combat and causing some wounds. (Not a lot of wounds, though. A few.) Even bad players just have to point and shoot to stop them.
(Also, in my original suggestion I said '15 or 20 points cheaper' and 'Plus 1 or 2 initiative.' In both cases, you've taken the more powerful of the two and then complained about them being too much. How come in your rant you don't say that I am suggesting 65 point models? Or with I4?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could give Penitent Engines a billion S10 Armorbane Fleshbane Attacks at I10 and WS10 with rerolls to hit and wound, but they still wouldn't be that great because THEY WILL NEVER GET TO COMBAT.
Waaaghpower wrote: Just for fun, I chose the oldest codex (And the one with the least anti-armor) and decided to see how many units it has that could very, very easily take out Penitent Engines.
From Orks, we get:
Ghazkull Thraka. No matter who gets the charge, he'll take maybe one wound (2 at the most) and kill them all.
Lootas. 15 of them will either wipe out, or nearly wipe out 3 Penitent engines in one turn of shooting.
Tankbustas. Finally! A unit Tankbustas are good against!
Ork Boys. Sure, the Ork Boys themselves can't hurt the Penitent Engines, but the Engines can only kill maybe 7-8 a turn in Close Combat and the Nob with a Power Klaw will kill one Penitent Engine every time he gets to swing.
Dakkajets and Warbuggies. They can reliably kill one a turn, and the Penitent Engines will never get close enough to hit back.
Warbikers. 30 S5 twin-linked shots to the rear armor will Vaporise the penitent engines, who once again are too slow to ever get into assault.
Battlewagons: The Deff Rolla will crush them, if the S7 Large Blast doesn't.
Deff Dreads: Hey look, significantly better walkers!
Killa Kans: Hey look, walkers with similar damage output for half the points!
Looted Wagons: The S7 Large Blast from earlier was bad? For 3 Penitent Engines, 2 Looted Wagons can bring 2 S8 ones.
Big Guns: Cheap, and they will blast apart Penitent Engines before they can get into combat.
(EDIT: I did my math wrong a bit on this. Deff Dreads aren't significantly better, they just get +1 Armor point and a lot more options in exchange for 1 Initiative. They're the same points cost, though, so Dreads are still a much better option. Also, I forgot to mention that you could get 2 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas instead of 1 with a Killkannon, which is probably the better option for killing Penitent engines.)
That's just Orks. Care to try this against a good, recent army? Maybe Eldar?
Thraka is T5 with a 2+/5+* save and 4 wounds.
He strikes at I4, with 5 Str5 attacks. (7 charging)
He's 225pts, so that's 2.5 Penitent Engines. We'll call it 2, 180pts of Engine.
So that's a total of 3.3 hits, and 0.45 glances when being charged,
or 4.6 hits, and 0.65 glances when charging.
In return, 2 Penitent Engines will deal 2.2 wounds when being charged, 3.3 charging.
3 Engines will cause 3.3 charged, 4.95 charging.
Big Shoota will cause .16 glances when shooting, and 0.08 when overwatching.
3 Penitent Engines worth of Lootas (16), will do an average of 32 shots, 10.6 hits, 2.9 pens and 1.5 glances.
So 4.4 HP damage and 0.96 explodes, or 1.5 to 2 dead Penitent Engines.
Of course if the Penitent(s) do make it to combat with the Lootas, they can't hurt it.
16 Tankbustas shooting at Penitents will cause 2.2 pens, .76 glances.
so 2.96 HP, 0.73 explodes. Probably kill 1 to 1.5 Penitents.
16 Tankbustas being charged by Penitents, will take 7.5 wounds, or charging will take 5.
In return the remaining (11 / 8) Tankbustas will do 4.58 / 3.3 pens, and 1.5 / 1.1 explodes.
The explodes in return will probably kill 3 / 2.2.
Left... 1 Penitent, 8 / 6 Tankbustas.
I... really can't be bothered to properly math the rest...
But the Deff Dredd with 2 Heavy Flamers is +2 AV, not open topped, no SoF, no immunity to Stun/Shake, no Rage, and I2, for 85pts.
But at the end of the day, when I've used my Penitent Engines, they've made it to combat, and killed stuff.
A unit of 3 can generally pretty reliably be pointed at something and kill it, then die.
Waaaghpower wrote: Have you tried PLAYING with Penitent Engines? As they are, they never, ever, ever get into Close Combat unless you are playing against an idiot....
Or someone who has better things to shoot at, like your Scouting four-melta Dominion squads or Retributors full of Repentia or allied Leman Russ..... Arguably, your Penitent Engines have done their jobs if they die before getting into combat if in doing so they keep something worth more points alive.
Ovion: Your math on Ghazkull Thraka is dead wrong. First off, when Ghazkull WAAAGH!s he gets a 2++ invuln for two full player turns. Second, he has a Power Klaw. He strikes at I1, with S10 AP2. 3.3 hits (when being charged, which he won't be because he's got fleet during his WAAAGH! means about 3 Pens. 2 Pens and a glance, if he's unlucky. And with AP2 against open-topped, these pens kill on a 4+. If he charges, that's 3 Pens and a glance.
The rest of your math is good, but a Penitent won't be getting into charge range with Lootas without taking 3-4 turns of shooting, and they won't get into Tankbusta range without 2-3 turns of shooting. (Also, bear in mind that Lootas and Tankbustas cause 50% of their normal damage when they fire overwatch, since their BS is only at -1 when they fire snap shots. That, and Tankbustas can move backwards and fire as quickly as Penitent engines can move forward and die.
I can't speak for your games, of course, but if your opponent has managed to get assaulted by Penitent Engines, that's the fault of those players, not a sign of a good unit.
SisterSydney...
Spending 80 points for a distraction squad isn't bad, except a single Penitent Engine has no damage output and hardly warrants any fire to be sent at it before it dies. Meanwhile, if you want a threatening enough unit to actually draw fire, you've got to spend 160-240 points, at which point why aren't you just bringing a couple Exorcists or a couple squads of Seraphim (Or more of the Dominions and Retributors.) When, for the cost of the distraction squad, you could buy another one of the squad you're trying to protect (Which, incidentally, is more durable) then you shouldn't be buying the distraction squad.
Convert them up a bit to be "counts-as" Centurions for your "counts-as" SM white scar force that gets you SoB on bikes, Vindicators with a fluer on the dozer blade, celestians with combi-weapons and blessed "ignores cover" ammunition. Don't forget the flying church that looks like it might just be built out of a storm raven model.
Failing that, have GW fix walkers, or just make PE's MC's.
