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Poor pain-crazed, self-hating fellow, just dying to get into close combat and RIP AND TEAR the enemies of the Emperor, only to invariably die for the Emperor before he gets there.... How do we improve his sorry lot and make an awesome model a viable unit? There's been a lot of discussion on and off, but I want to tap the Collective Dakka Brain to actually homebrew some solutions, specifically in the form of upgrades/options to the basic Penitent Engine in the current Codex: my self-imposed limitation (which you can feel free to ignore) is "nothing for free. We have to build on top of and around Codex:Adepta Sororitas, not replace the unit that's in there altogether, which means every good thing we add to the unit should come with a points cost.

Options that occur to me:
- Buy Holy NOx to increase the PE's Run move for at least one turn. 5-10 points?
- Buy a more heavily armored chassis to get AV13/12/10. 40 points? Ouch. Maybe it should get a discount for being such a crappy vehicle to begin with.
- Buy a Rosarius Field so the vehicle no longer counts as open-topped or even gets a 4++ save instead of 6++.
- Buy some way to justify Furious Charge ("actuator spasm"?), which it really should have already.....but I'm going to stick with my own rule here and say it'd have to cost something.

Make it MC. Fixed.

Changing to MC would fix a lot. Would be really cool if they could move like beasts. Make sense since they want to get up close and slice the enemy fast.

 conker249 wrote:
Changing to MC would fix a lot. Would be really cool if they could move like beasts. Make sense since they want to get up close and slice the enemy fast.

This makes sense. A T6 MC with around 3 Wounds would be appropriate. After all, the majority is metal but if you do happen to wound it, the driver is only a (crazed) human. Slap on a 5++ save from some wibbly-wobbly-forcey-fieldy Rosarius related things. Rock and roll.

Pentient engines actually perform badly not cause of their poor rules but cause of a current ruleset and the ammount of cheap s6-7 shooting that made walkers not worth using in most cases. If you make every single walker a mc with t6 and armor 3+ and 3-4 wounds they'll greatly outperform their current selves. So let's just hope ed 6.5 will make vehicles more durable.

The other alternative to making it a monstrous creature and rewriting the whole thing is to give it one of the most broken special rules in the game: Hard to Hit.

Screw making it an MC. That only compounds bad rules-writing with more bad rules.

Give it a a refractor field for a 5+ save. Give it furious charge. 85 points. Done.

 koooaei wrote:
Make it MC. Fixed.

Beaten to the punch.

Like others have said, apply this to every walker in the game and it would go a long way in fixing them for 6th edition.

Give it scouting?

 amanita wrote:
Screw making it an MC. That only compounds bad rules-writing with more bad rules.

Give it a a refractor field for a 5+ save. Give it furious charge. 85 points. Done.

It's already got a 6++ save and S10 attacks, so I'm not sure how Furious Charge would help.

Hmm, as a toned down version of my Hard to Hit suggestion (which was a little extreme and interacts oddly with other rules), how about Jink and Shrouded?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Screw making it an MC. That only compounds bad rules-writing with more bad rules.

Give it a a refractor field for a 5+ save. Give it furious charge. 85 points. Done.

It's already got a 6++ save and S10 attacks, so I'm not sure how Furious Charge would help.

Hmm, as a toned down version of my Hard to Hit suggestion (which was a little extreme and interacts oddly with other rules), how about Jink and Shrouded?

...Which makes sense how exactly?

The Penitent is not alone in this. Pretty much every walker in the game suffers.

Fix all walkers in one swoop instead of focusing on one.

Making it a MC just further unbalances things. Especially since it actually isn't a monstrous creature at all. Just like how I think WKs and Riptides should not be MCs.

We're not talking about other walkers. Other walkers - Space Marine and Ork Dreadnoughts in particular - lumber across the battlefield slowly on stumpy legs with no knees.

Penitent Engines careen across the battlefield on wild arrays of pistons with far too many joints in highly erratic patterns. I'm suggesting Jink + Shrouded because they are under such frenetic movement that aiming at them is a PITA and the only real hope you have of taking them down is to spray and pray, unless you're a seriously expert marksman or just coat the entire area in explosions. Or guided by the Emperor, I guess.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
We're not talking about other walkers. Other walkers - Space Marine and Ork Dreadnoughts in particular - lumber across the battlefield slowly on stumpy legs with no knees.

Penitent Engines careen across the battlefield on wild arrays of pistons with far too many joints in highly erratic patterns. I'm suggesting Jink + Shrouded because they are under such frenetic movement that aiming at them is a PITA and the only real hope you have of taking them down is to spray and pray, unless you're a seriously expert marksman or just coat the entire area in explosions. Or guided by the Emperor, I guess.

They're so fast that they move 6'

Okay, if you want it that way, we can say it Immobilises itself on 5+ every turn to represent such a gakky design of movement.

Oh, and if you ever roll a 6 to hit (Jink and shrouded still applies) the shot is resolved as if the model was T3 W1 to represent hitting the exposed pilot.

conker249 wrote:Changing to MC would fix a lot. Would be really cool if they could move like beasts. Make sense since they want to get up close and slice the enemy fast.

Furyou Miko wrote:Hmm, as a toned down version of my Hard to Hit suggestion (which was a little extreme and interacts oddly with other rules), how about Jink and Shrouded?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
We're not talking about other walkers. Other walkers - Space Marine and Ork Dreadnoughts in particular - lumber across the battlefield slowly on stumpy legs with no knees.

Penitent Engines careen across the battlefield on wild arrays of pistons with far too many joints in highly erratic patterns. I'm suggesting Jink + Shrouded because they are under such frenetic movement that aiming at them is a PITA and the only real hope you have of taking them down is to spray and pray, unless you're a seriously expert marksman or just coat the entire area in explosions. Or guided by the Emperor, I guess.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Okay, if you want it that way, we can say it Immobilises itself on 5+ every turn to represent such a gakky design of movement

koooaei wrote:They're so fast that they move 6'

Yeah, moving like infantry -- 6" base + 6" run -- is definitely an issue. And Conker's idea of making it move as a Beast might be an elegant fix.

But that gives me an idea: How about making them Walkers that move as and get the SRs for Cavalry: That's 12" base move, Fleet, and Hammer of Wrath -- very appropriate for something designed to smash headlong into the enemy. Cavalry also aren't slowed by Difficult Terrain -- but they treat it as Dangerous Terrain, which again strikes me as an appropriate disadvantage for something with the crazy-ass legs and reckless movement style of a Penitent Engine; it's a toned-down version of what Haraldus suggested.

So maybe an enhanced Penitent option -- "High-Power Actuators"? -- that gives them
- moves as Cavalry
- Fleet
- Hammer of Wrath
- Jink because holy crap this thing moves fast and erratically
That's probably be about 40 points normally, but let' s discount it to 20 because the base Pengine is so badly overcosted.
I'm tempted by Rampage, too, which can also be justified by better limb actuators. Add that in and you have maybe a 50-point package, discounted 50% gets you 25 points for a 105-point Pengine.

Or you can take the option to uparmor the Pengine to AV13/12/10 and not open-topped (magical Rosarius field diverts shots from exposed pilot) for 50 points discounted 50% also equals +25.

You just can't take both the uparmor package and the high-speed package, they're either-or for the obvious reason that bolting on more armour requires improving the movement systems just to keep going at the same speed.

Total: 105
Huh.
I... actually didn't expect that.

That means that Penitents are 25pts cheaper than equivalent walkers.

And yeah, some of the problems with it are the inherrent issues with being walkers in 6th, and in part due in part to Str5/6/7 saturation.

And really, I can't think of a reasonable way to fix them.

At the end of the day they're meant to be a fragile beatstick. A method for those who have sinned to die. There's no coming back from this.
So giving them extra armour doesn't fit with the fluff, or the models.
Nor does giving it a Rosarius (giving rare and expensive protective forcefields, only entrusted to respected, high ranked officials to your disgraced prisoners being sent to die? no.)
And what would Furious Charge really do? Cost +10pts, to give +1str on the charge to a Str10 model?
Increasing their Run by say, 3", is a maybe, but ultimately, it's a Sentinel drive system. Sentinels can't do it, and this is a cheaper throwaway version.

Making it a Monstrous Creature doesn't make it any better tbh.
First, Monstrous Creature is worth 50pts on its own, still moves 6", and generally, you'd only have a 3+ save at best, meaning most things actually shooting at it will ignore its save regardless.
AV11 is immune to Str4 and less. To be immune to Str4 as an MC you need to be T8 (which this wouldn't be). At T5-6 (what it would likely be), it's going to be able to be hosed down by pretty much every weapon in the game.
And while against some things it'd get a 3+ save, it'll be a lot more vulnerable than it was before.
At T7, you're looking at being immun to Str3, but that's not exactly that amazing as is.
So yes, you no longer run the risk of being one-shotted, but you're far more fragile. (Just ask any DE player how durable a T7, 3W, 3+ save Talos actually is)
And a MC Penitent Engine would also cost around 120pts

The best I can think of, is giving them Scouts. This would represent them recklessly charging the enemy ahead of the rest of the army, and/or coming in from the sides after having been let loose seperately.

Additionally, upgrading their DCCWs to Chainfists or Eviscerators, just to match the model, would make sense.

Edit - COUGHS, adjusted the cost because I made a booboo.

I think -1S is irrelevant since it always has powerfists anyway, Ovion.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think -1S is irrelevant since it always has powerfists anyway, Ovion.

It is relevant, because:
1 - It's statted that way. So it's priced that way.
If you ignore it, that's another +10pts to the total.

2 - If it somehow gets 2 weapon destroyeds, it'll be Str5 again.

 Ovion wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think -1S is irrelevant since it always has powerfists anyway, Ovion.

It is relevant, because:
1 - It's statted that way. So it's priced that way.
If you ignore it, that's another +10pts to the total.

2 - If it somehow gets 2 weapon destroyeds, it'll be Str5 again.

This is like the whole Feel No Pain thing all over again.

Things are worth different amounts on different units.

A Power Fist is more useful on a S4 model than on a S1 model, yet they shouldn't be priced the same. Neither should +1 (Or, indeed, -1) strength for a model that gets to use it often, and a model that doesn't.

It's going to be difficult to get the Engine into a situation where it will be relevant. At the point where it's lost both weapons, it's almost hullpointed to death anyway.

 Ovion wrote:
I... actually didn't expect that. That means that Penitents are 45pts cheaper than equivalent walkers.

Nicely done. Totally not the result I wanted, but that only makes it more valuable.

 Ovion wrote:
At the end of the day they're meant to be a fragile beatstick. A method for those who have sinned to die. There's no coming back from this. So giving them extra armour doesn't fit with the fluff, or the models. Nor does giving it a Rosarius....

Good points. I'm not sure an uparmor package would be entirely unfluffy -- sometimes you really do want to make sure the damn thing lives long enough to make the other guys die for the Emperor before it does -- but it does seem out of character to have a tough Pengine, like a tapdancing Dreadnought., a obsessively tidy Chaos Space Marine, or a pacifist.... well anything in 40K really.

 Ovion wrote:
Increasing their Run by say, 3", is a maybe, but ultimately, it's a Sentinel drive system. Sentinels can't do it, and this is a cheaper throwaway version.....

Huh. I didn't know it was fluffed as a Sentinel drive train. But if you know it's gonna die on its first mission, you can overclock it mercilitessly. (Well, it's not a computer, it's mechanics, so you'd be removing governors and limiters and... stuff). The Departmento Munitorum is deeply invested in ensuring that Sentinels don't wear out drive train components at rates above specified logistical norms. The Adeptus Ministorum cares about long-term maintainability of Penitent Engines.... not at all.

So I still think there's a place for a fast-and-furious ugprade to represent Ministorum mechanics looking at each other and saying, "feth it, we ain't gonna ever have to fix this gakking thing, it ain't never comin' back, so let's turn that fether up to 11":

12" base move, treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain (you won't slow down but you may break a leg), and gets Hammer of Wrath -- i.e. it becomes a hybrid of Walker and Cavalry. That's three advantages but the Dangerous Terrain thing is a downside, so maybe 25 points?
Maybe add Rampage to represent taking all the limiters off the arms so they can thrash like crazy (and will require replacing immediately after the battle, in the unlikely event the PE survives), +10 points?
So, not discounting anything, a souped-up Penitent Engine, depending on whether you give it Rampage, is 105 or 115 points.

 Ovion wrote:
The best I can think of, is giving them Scouts. This would represent them recklessly charging the enemy ahead of the rest of the army, and/or coming in from the sides after having been let loose seperately.

Also very interesting. I do tend to think of Scouts as tactically savvy, not just reckless, though -- there's presumably some way they got that close to the enemy before the battle and didn't get shot doing it....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
This is like the whole Feel No Pain thing all over again. Things are worth different amounts on different units.....

Absolutely. But I don't think anyone has a truly accurate point-costing model where the costs of upgrading X are affected by the value of Y -- certainly not GW, which seems to wing it gleefully. Ovion's rules of thumb are the best starting point I've been able to find.

 SisterSydney wrote:


Absolutely. But I don't think anyone has a truly accurate point-costing model where the costs of upgrading X are affected by the value of Y -- certainly not GW, which seems to wing it gleefully. Ovion's rules of thumb are the best starting point I've been able to find.

Yup... But then, if I give a Conversion Beamer to a broodlord, I insist that it should not be the same price as for a MotF. Equivalent situation.

Games Workshop have outright stated that they 'guess what seems about right' for points values...

Right. The thing is they get away with that because they're the manufacturer... Homebrewers have to "show their work" and at least attempt some systematic working-out of point costs just to show their units shouldn't be laughed off the table.

For Penitent Engine Builds, I'm proposing something.... different to normal.

Use the pricing I've created above, then reduce it by 20%.

So, the base is 105-(105/5)=84.
This base +4pts will be the Homebrew Tax for any changes.
This is how I will be recosting my Penitent Engine Variants, that I will post here and in my Sisters Extended thread!

Changing it to a MC or whatever doesn't address the fact that it's I3. Far too many units will krak grenade/smash it to bits before it gets to strike.

How about the Crusader or It Will Not Die special rules? The first can be explained by the driving force of the pilot to charge forward seeking redemption and/or death, and the second being pumped full of drugs and crazy? One gives a boost to speed, the other survivability. Not a huge shift, but a little nudge.

IWND is both unfluffy and pointless, it'll explode most of the time anyway.

Crusader perhaps, but it will still die when sneezed on.

The whole 'dies when sneezed on' thing is fluffy but rather unfortunate for the poor Penitent. It is after all a rickety Dreadnought without armour plates and with a big SHOOT ME sign on the head of the pilot.

Hmmm....

Give them 2 SRs:

Is That a Bird? and Berzerk!.

Is That a Bird?: Penitent Engines are deployed by being dropped directly on top of enemy formations (or as close as conditions, and luck, allow). Penitent Engines are kept in reserve at the start of the game and come onto the board as part of Reserves. The PE is treated as arriving via Deep Strike.

If the Penitent Engine(s) roll successfully to deploy, place a small blast marker at the desired point of entry. This point may be on top of enemy units or in Dangerous (but not Impassable) Terrain.

Make a Ld test for the PE. If successful, it arrives on-target and delivers one S10 AP4 hit to any model wholly or partially under the blast marker as it lands directly on top of them.

If this Ld test fails, it scatters 2d6" as normal. If this would Scatter the PE into Impassable Terrain or off the table, it Mishaps.

Berzerk!: The PE may Assault as soon as the model is placed on the table after it has arrived via Deep Strike. The PE has a charge move of 6"+2d6" and gains +1A if charging before entering melee. Also, if the PE begins its phase in base contact with an enemy model after arriving via Deep Strike, it may immediately initiate close combat, and thus does not permit Overwatch or Supporting Fire to be used against it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Hmmm....

Give them 2 SRs:

Is That a Bird? and Berserk!.

Is That a Bird?: Penitent Engines are deployed by being dropped directly on top of enemy formations (or as close as conditions, and luck, allow). Penitent Engines are kept in reserve at the start of the game and come onto the board as part of Reserves. The PE is treated as arriving via Deep Strike.

If the Penitent Engine(s) roll successfully to deploy, place a small blast marker at the desired point of entry. This point may be on top of enemy units or in Dangerous (but not Impassable) Terrain.

Make a Ld test for the PE. If successful, it arrives on-target and delivers one S10 AP4 hit to any model wholly or partially under the blast marker as it lands directly on top of them.

If this Ld test fails, it scatters 2d6" as normal. If this would Scatter the PE into Impassable Terrain or off the table, it Mishaps.

Berzerk!: The PE may Assault as soon as the model is placed on the table after it has arrived via Deep Strike. The PE has a charge move of 6"+2d6" and gains +1A if charging before entering melee. Also, if the PE begins its phase in base contact with an enemy model after arriving via Deep Strike, it may immediately initiate close combat, and thus does not permit Overwatch or Supporting Fire to be used against it.

That would AT LEAST double the cost of the Penitent Engine...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
IWND is both unfluffy and pointless, it'll explode most of the time anyway.

Crusader perhaps, but it will still die when sneezed on.

The whole 'dies when sneezed on' thing is fluffy but rather unfortunate for the poor Penitent. It is after all a rickety Dreadnought without armour plates and with a big SHOOT ME sign on the head of the pilot.

Do they still have their damage output? I’ve faced them across the table a few times, and have a healthy respect for them. Not under the new codex though, not sure how much they’ve changed. All it takes is one time letting them get to CC and watch them blenderize stuff to make an impression. Assuming you live thorough the burning. They are your classic eggshell armed with sledgehammer.

Making them sturdy detracts from their core identity. I mean, they are walkers that aren’t supposed to protect their pilot. It’s not like they are giant walking slabs of armor. They are half naked crazy loons strapped to the front of a pain machine. How do you make that tougher from a game mechanic POV? Can vehicles get a FNP save? That’s why I suggested IWND.

The other option is to close to the enemy faster. Only a few ways to do that, and not all fit walkers.

CC and walkers are both in a poor place in this edition, so this whole endeavor is an uphill battle. On the bright side, squadroning is not as bad as it used to be. So you can go with the IG motto of “If it’s worth taking, it’s worth taking three; One will die, one will miss, but the third will get the job done"