How DO we fix the poor Penitent Engine?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Ashiraya**

Oh, I agreed. I think that their fragility is fluffy.

Either make them cheaper, I suppose, (In which case it'll make melee armies even more sad) or faster.

**SisterSydney**

I think faster is the way to go. Fluffwise it actually seems wrong for them to lumber along at the same speed as normal infantry....

**Psienesis**

... which is why I propose dropping them directly onto the enemy, either by aircraft or hydraulic catapults.

**Shandara**

Psienesis wrote:
... which is why I propose dropping them directly onto the enemy, either by aircraft or hydraulic catapults.

Death by catapult!

**Ovion**

Psienesis wrote:
... which is why I propose dropping them directly onto the enemy, either by aircraft or hydraulic catapults.

I don't think they should all have Deep Strike tbh.

I think maybe, if you were to change default Peni's, Scout, and +3" to run moves would be a olid change. +15pts (less that pesky 20%), for a 92pt unit.

**Psienesis**

Scout, though, does not do much for getting them into melee or surviving once they get there. I'm of the opinion that the PE needs to go for an all-out blitz, cause it's not going to survive more than 1 further round.

You could even rename the SR to "Descent of the Damned" to keep with the religious flavor.

**Ashiraya**

Ovion wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
... which is why I propose dropping them directly onto the enemy, either by aircraft or hydraulic catapults.
I don't think they should all have Deep Strike tbh.

I think maybe, if you were to change default Peni's, Scout, and +3" to run moves would be a olid change. +15pts (less that pesky 20%), for a 92pt unit.

Trollbait detected.

**Psienesis**

Lol, I think that was an innocent (though amusing) mistake.

Still, you could even have the catapult be modeled on the table, built onto an old Rhino Chassis, that flings PE (and other heretics) at the enemy. The PE is the only one that actually survives the trip, but maybe a half-dozen other heretics being flung at them might cause Morale issues against certain armies.

**Ovion**

Not trolling.
It moves you 6" closer pre-turn one, or lets you outflank with them (Outflanking 6 Heavy Flamers that next turn are going to charge and wreck whatever it touches seems like a fantastic threat).

Working on updating my Order Penitent stuff atm.

**SisterSydney**

No, Ovion, we're not saying you are trolling, we're trying to say Psienesis's suggestion for a Penitent Catapult is... not entirely serious.

**Ovion**

AAAH.
Lil bit silly.
I could see Orks firing Deff Dreads out of a looted Rhino with a Catapult though! : D

Actually, looking at it, he bolded "Peni's".

Ha ha it looks like penis.

**Psienesis**

It is and it isn't.

I look at the PE as a tool for up-close face-wrecking, and the problem it currently faces is that it is too fragile to actually get up close and wreck face.

I don't think Scout is going to be a cure for that, because I'm pretty sure it's going to get Overwatched to death when it begins its charge, and Outflanking doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as these things aren't exactly sneaky, it's a hard rule to justify fluff-wise.

**SisterSydney**

That's why I'm thinking of letting an upgraded Pengine move like cavalry (12" base move plus Fleet). I'm not so worried about BS:1 Overwatch shots as I am about multiple turns of heavy weapons fire as un-upgraded Pennies slog across the board.

**Ovion**

Psienesis wrote:
It is and it isn't.

I look at the PE as a tool for up-close face-wrecking, and the problem it currently faces is that it is too fragile to actually get up close and wreck face.

I don't think Scout is going to be a cure for that, because I'm pretty sure it's going to get Overwatched to death when it begins its charge, and Outflanking doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as these things aren't exactly sneaky, it's a hard rule to justify fluff-wise.

It's very unlikely to get Overwatched to death.

Immune to Str1-4, means it ignores Lasguns, Bolters etc.

If it's assaulting a unit with say... a Missile Launcher, is only going to hit on a 6, and only pen on 4+, with a 6+ Invun and a 1/3 chance of exploding.
So on Overwatch from a Missile Launcher (or any Str8), that'll be a 2.3% (or 1 in 43) chance of exploding.

If charging Tau, it'll be a 2.3% of a glance, meaning you'll need 129 shots in overwatch from Pulse weapons to enusre the kill of each healthy Peni.

**Psienesis**

If charging Tau, it'll be a 2.3% of a glance, meaning you'll need 129 shots in overwatch from Pulse weapons to enusre the kill of each healthy Peni.

Possibly per FW blob. Don't forget Supporting Fire.

**Ovion**

I'm not.
But even my entire Tau armies infantry shooting (72 Firewarriors, supported by 2 Ethereals for 216 shots, if all 72 are within 15" of the unit when it declared its charge), would only drop 2 in overwatch fire.

You really don't need to worry about shooting from overwatch.
(Hell, at the end of the day, Overwatch really isn't all that. Yes it can hurt some squishy units, and Tau Overwatch can be daunting with Supporting Fire, but even with a bucket of dice, only 1 in 6 are going to even hit.)

**SisterSydney**

And then, once the Pennies have gotten through all those missed shots, they can melee some delicious squishy Tau!

**Furyou Miko**

I'm going to second (third?) the Cavalry idea, actually. A potential 24" assault range will really help, especially with the inherent reroll to Run included with Fleet. Turn one, go to a midpoint terrain piece, turn two, hell-for-leather into an enemy unit.

Penitent Engines aren't as blendery as they used to be because they lost their additional attacks. I would say that they either need that back (or even the full-on Blood Talon effect) or they need Rampage, if you really think that's too powerful.

>> I4 would help too. Or some kind of... hmm. How about;

Brutal Mechanism: The Penitent Engine inflicts Hammer of Wrath at AP2. If the Engine's Hammer of Wrath kills a model, the rest of that model's unit is reduced to Initiative 1 for the remainder of the phase as they wipe the splatter from their eyes.

**koooaei**

U're trying to make maulerfiend out of an engine with the movement. Yep, that's currently what can make walkers work. Speed.

**Ashiraya**

Ovion wrote:
AAAH.
Lil bit silly.
I could see Orks firing Deff Dreads out of a looted Rhino with a Catapult though! : D

Actually, looking at it, he bolded "Peni's".

Ha ha it looks like penis.

Yes, I know. Sorry, I had to.

And guys, remember to change it with wisdom. Make it too fast and killy and its fragility will become irrelevant. Just be careful, mkay?

**SisterSydney**

Well, making its fragility less relevant, i.e. not crippling, is the point. Making it irrevelant would indeed totally change the character of the unit.

And I see Kooael's point about making it a Maulerfiend clone. At least it has a less stupid name (who comes up with the names for Chaos stuff?)

**Ashiraya**

SisterSydney wrote:
Well, making its fragility less relevant, i.e. not crippling, is the point. Making it irrevelant would indeed totally change the character of the unit.

And I see Kooael's point about making it a Maulerfiend clone. At least it has a less stupid name (who comes up with the names for Chaos stuff?)

Well... It rolls off the tongue nicely. And I am not English so the exact meaning of the name matters less to me.

**Psienesis**

I think, perhaps, the best way to fix the PE is to give it an extra 6" of movement, or perhaps 3d6 + 6 on the charge (rather than 2d6) to reflect its drug-crazed mechanical nature, and a 5++ save (again, drug-crazed heretic not caring that his/her arm has been shot off or the machine itself not caring that its "pilot" is dead already).

This gives them a chance to get into melee, and a fighting chance to stay stuck in, but is fairly easily overcome with weight of fire, which is, I think, appropriate for a machine such as this.

**Ovion**

You want... a 9 to 24 inch charge range... Average of 16-17 inch charge, plus 6 inch movement...
Jetbikes still only get 2d6, so I'm going with no on that one.

Fleet, or 3d6 and discard the lowest may be fine.
Or just fleet.

**SisterSydney**

Fleet is good. Then moves like Cavalry or Agile. Don't have my BRB handy so I can't give exact inches those two options would give...

**dadakkaest**

Make it's act of faith that it ignores all damage other than penetrating hit/explodes results until the beginning of the next game turn.

**MWHistorian**

It needs to get into combat faster and needs a higher initiative. When a crazed buzzsaw wielding death machine can't survive long enough to actually attack a squad of tacticals, something is wrong.

**dadakkaest**

Well, what is wrong is that the 40k development team are a bunch of brit history majors looking to make a buck and that hate wargames and wargamers.

But that's beside the point.

**Nevelon**

dadakkaest wrote:
Make it's act of faith that it ignores all damage other than penetrating hit/explodes results until the beginning of the next game turn.

Do they have an AoF? If so, what is it? I thought that the kind of people that ended up strapped to these things had some lack of faith issues...

**Ovion**

Ok, as promised, I'll post the Homebrew Penitent Engine related stuff I've done here, to give people ideas (Also posted in my Sisters Extended Thread here.
Starting with the HQ variant - Valeriya the Damned.

Spoiler:

Costing

Spoiler:

Total: 200
+40pts over her 5th ed counterpart.

I decided that she should get to keep Battle Frenzy, being a Special Character.
In turn, I've made it so she can no longer be the Madatory HQ and Warlord - though if people think that her being a Mandatory HQ and Warlord is fine, then I'm happy to drop it!

But she allows you to bring 2 squads of Peni's as troops, freeing up those Heavy Slots, and can bring a pair of Defenders (regular Penitent Engines with Heavy Bolters), that I will add presently.