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How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
By troops do you mean grunt infantry? Then the space marines are still top of the line. However in terms of tactics, the Tau and Necrons are up there. And of course when quantity is better than quality the Nids and Orks will always be a big threat.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
IMO Imperium has enough men to hold out the current situation indefinitely. Of course, that meaning the current situation stays the same, and nothing like a huge hive fleet/waagh/black crusade starts up again. I only even say this because we all know GW will keep the Imperium going strong. However I think the Imperium might be becoming stretched a little too thin.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
The traitor legionnaires are only that old because of all those dark pacts made with Chaos. I'd say the average marine lasts for a few hundred years (with no mechanical repairs)
What about the Void Dragon?
Don't believe in it.
How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
Titans I'd say are fairly accurate to scale (except for crew compartments). Spaceships however, are extremely massive. Modelling one in 40k scale would take, IMO, enough space to cover large gaming tables many times over.
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Chaos definitely seems easier to follow than the emperor, and is basically behind every driving emotion in most races. If there is one thing that is as sly and corrupting as Chaos, it is hard to find.
How large are the Hive Fleets?
Unimaginable. We haven't seen anything yet. The entire universe is too big for that.
DC:80+S+++GM+B++IPw40k08++D++A+++/hWD346R++T(M)DM+ Successful trades with Tweems, Polonius, Porkuslime, Mark94656, TheCupcakeCowboy, MarshalMathis, and Hahnjoelo
With this in mind, in a setting with tons of contradictory sources where we are allowed, even encouraged, to cherrypick, what is your own personal interpretation of 40K's setting?
Here are some things that I commonly see debating over:
How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
Space Marines: Astartes are extremely powerful soldiers that are almost unmatched in the galaxy. As commonly described, a single company with a techmarine is more than capable of seizing a Hive World fro an opposing force of non outlandish size. However, they're not basic soldiers and are wasted as such- better served as elite shocktroopers/commandos capable of going toe-to-toe with the forces of Chaos and hostile Xenos and exiting victorious. Superhuman, incapable of being reliably killed without special weaponry suited for fighting heavy infantry. Also extremely costly and painful to replace in large numbers. Laughably more powerful than Guardsmen unless heavy ordinance comes into play, however Astartes equivalents are typically better. Best used as paratrooper shock infantry best deployed as the last stand. Equal matches are Chaos and Necrons. Orks and Tyranids in mass numbers. Power chisel of the Emperor capable of shattering the mightiest stone when properly hammered in the right location. Will however win against most troops of other factions in a one-on-one fight, but can be overwhelmed by greater numbers by forces such as Tyranids, Orks, or Chaos Cultists. Armor is impervious to basic energy weapons like lasguns and weak autoguns. Can be cracked open by high powered plasma guns such as those used by Astartes and the Imperial Guard or hotshot/hellguns, although those still are unlikely to be as great of a threat to an Astartes' life, but will punch through the armor with one to multiple hits. Exceptional at nearly every aspect of warfare save attrition.
Note should also be made for their various exceptional skill and extremely fast reaction times which are in the miliseconds coupled with extreme speed, even in armor.
Imperial Guard: Basic.While it differs greatly with regiments, as Cadians are fairly exceptional soldiers thanks to early training and the culture of Cadia, and Catachans are Catachans- the average Guardsmen, including Cadian, will die to nearly every other enemy soldier in a fight save Rippers. Much like the Tau, the average Guardsmen are worthless without vehicular support or range between them and the enemy- unlike most of the other factions. Weapons are also fairly lackluster, lasguns and autoguns aren't extremely lethal against most other enemies, as Orks are able to shrug off multiple shots and enemies like Astartes or Necrons will barely notice such weapon fire. Changes with specialist infantry such as Storm Troopers and Catachans, which can provide a threat to great enemies and with Storm Troopers, often equip weapons capable of lethally harming an Astartes with several shots. Of course, Guardsmen with Plasma Guns and Meltaguns are more than capable of killing Necrons, Astartes, Orks, etc with a single well-placed shot.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
with a side of utterly . Only thing really keeping them intact is the Guard serving as duct tape and the Astartes running around and mashing down the uber threats. Of course, Grey Knights and the rest of the Inquisition also needs to be mentioned for their constant efforts to prevent Chaos and Xenos from popping up and causing threats inside their space. Imperium's in a rather precarious situation where slight imbalance would lead them to failing and Abaddon leading another Black Crusade right out of the Eye of Terror and seizing not only the gate, but all territory around it and letting the legions of hell spill forth. Or Necrons making a push right into Terra and seizing Mars for the Void Dragon.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
Chaos Space Marines say hello. Of course, while the originals and Chaos Astartes might be immortal, with the deterioration of gene seed for loyalists without space magic to rejuvenate it, it's entirely possible that it's deteriorated to the point that Astartes are not only mortal, but have a lifespan measured in centuries, not millenniums.
What about the Void Dragon?
On Mars. Unknown if a full C'tan or a shard. Also explains why Mars is a hellhole inside.
How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Well, scrapcode can turn your Toaster into a ravenous machine hungering for your soul, so there's that. That and it can render even the greatest champions of man a deluded crusader blind to how they are now fighting for the other side. So I'd say pretty good. Helps to have religious tomes and follow the dogma though.
How large are the Hive Fleets?
Pretty big. Of course, not really entirely dangerous considering they are losing energy and haven't really had an impressive track record.
Of course, those are just examples that I thought up in a few minutes. Post anything from your own interpretation!
Will finish later.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
With this in mind, in a setting with tons of contradictory sources where we are allowed, even encouraged, to cherrypick, what is your own personal interpretation of 40K's setting?
Here are some things that I commonly see debating over:
How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
SM are to normal human soldiers what SEAL Team Six is to middle-schoolers that play paintball occasionally. Magnitudes of difference. But marines see combat so often that "1-in-a-million-hit" happens not so rarely.
Guardsmen are equivalent of a combination of US professional soldiers and US draftees who aren't very professional at all, often in the same units. Some general thought the "Starship Troopers" movie was full of sound tactical advice though.
Eldar/Dark Eldar are as honor-bound as Japanese Samurai, acrobatic as Cirque de Sole', condescending as the Thalmor in Skyrim and as tough as someone with severe anorexia. A normal guardsmen fighting one would be like a drunk oaf fighting a small karate master, they know where to hit and they hit *fast*.
Tyranids are an endless swarm of dog-sized gaunts with a few large creatures thrown in for good measure, though they only show up when swarming doesn't work. Without Space support, any planet is doomed.
Tau are under pheromone influence of the etherals and have no interest in sharing the galaxy with mankind. Even if only those two races were left and on the same side, the Tau would use long term sterilization to deal with humans. A Guardsmen fighting tau at range is like fight Airsoft(guard) against Civil-war rifles(tau) they have range and hit hard, but guard have volume of fire and variety of tactics/squads.
Chaos are weaker than their guard/SM counterparts but make up for it by cheating. Using the warp and heretical knowledge, they can brain-wash entire Hives from within, turn brother against brother, drive men mad enough to kill themselves and project terror into their foes, all without lifting a finger. The best weapon against chaos is master your fear of them, then shoot them in the face.
Orkz are tough(grizzly bear tough), numerous(sold-out concert numerous) and strong(silver-back gorilla strong) as hell. But often get in each others way when attacking something, often hitting each other and starting brawls directly in front of enemies. This also applies on the Macro scale.
Necrons are a seldom seen threat by most of the galaxy, often when they attack there is no report because there are no survivors. Most Dynasties keep to their own business, but that business varies from time-freezing a planet and cutting off all of their thumbs to see what happens to awakening other tombs to see family or wiping out all life. In battle necrons move at a walking pace, but it takes 3 bolter shells to the chest to kill, but they might just get back up in 60 seconds. Overlords are terminator armor from Mars tough and gauss weapons only take 5 good hits to get through SM armor.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
Bad, the 13th Crusade has drained the Imperiums man-power to halt, leaving much of the galaxy vulnerable. But as the xenos close in on the weakened worlds, they often fight each other for them, so this gives mankind time to rally.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
Marines can be in their prime until they are killed or their centuries of horrific wounds slows them down significantly, which either gets them killed in battle or they "retire" to maintaining the ceremonies of the chapter and train new recruits with their experience. Traitors can be 10,000 years old, but only because the warp is time-travel. Their first post-heresy battle with the imperium could be now, but then re-emerge 2,00 years earlier where they are killed. Adding to the confusion, worthy warriors are revived by sorcerers/Dark gods to fight a new.
What about the Void Dragon?
Buried on mars, mostly intact C'tan shard. My personal twist is that if it wakes up, it will want to conserve its "food source" and aid mankind in its fight so that there will be more Tech-priests slowly giving their life-essence(replacing with cybernetic parts) to it. Like a hate with sodas on it and a straw into your mouth.
How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
Warhounds are 7 stories tall at the top, Warlords are 30-35 meters, Emperor class are 50meters +
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Chaos influence is like a gradual onset of alcohol/weed into your blood stream. Except rather than relaxing and losing motor-control, you start acting schizophrenic and grouchy/nervous/hysterical, whichever you are more prone too. This escalates until you are a violent and mindless rage machine/a paranoid wreck that hears voices and thinks every one is trying to kill him/a inconsolable wailing body on the floor thats rolling in its own excrement. Focus, awareness and determination can greatly hold these feeling at bay, but no one holds out forever...
How large are the Hive Fleets?
Imagine seeing a ring of a planet from a few thousand miles away, you can see each dot that is a chunk of rock or ice. Now imagine that ring is 10 times as thick and each piece of rock or ice is a several mile long tyranid "ship"
Of course, those are just examples that I thought up in a few minutes. Post anything from your own interpretation!
"Surrender and Die."
"To an Immortal, to one among a legion, honor and your word are all that matter" - Phaeron Orionis of the Brotherhood
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Well, scrapcode can turn your Toaster into a ravenous machine hungering for your soul, so there's that.
I have said it before and I will say it again: Possessed Toasters deserve an entry in at least one Codex. They keep being referenced by the fans.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Well, scrapcode can turn your Toaster into a ravenous machine hungering for your soul, so there's that.
I have said it before and I will say it again: Possessed Toasters deserve an entry in at least one Codex. They keep being referenced by the fans.
Scrapcode is like machine STD's. Only worse, because they don't even need to come in contact with an already infected machine for it to spread.
Of course, there's also the human form of scrapcode. Doubtworm. Yikes. Which is also worse as it ends with a warp creature the size of a continent that creatures massive earthquakes when it moves. Only cure is a cyclonic torpedo.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
The regular guardsman is a soldier who has recieved the minimum amount of training in order to know how to follow orders and know his role. Anything else then that is based around the limited equipment he will be expected to use, and then off he goes to fight in the Imperial wars. Obviously some guardsmen are from tougher locals and may well be much smarter and skilled, but that is not the norm.
A Battle sister is what the guard could be if given the very best equipment, gear and training, and then ramped up further with the inclusion of fanatical zeal as part of their daily lives. The real pinnacle of what a normal human can do in battle.
A Space Marine is an elite fighting machine, carefully constructed to deal with impossible situations and turn the tides of humanities problems. They are the best the Imperium has at it's disposal, but they are limited in number and thus ability and power (for good reason). As such, they must be applied in the right situation and way. More of a strike force then an army.
An Ork is more then a match for an untrained human. A smart guardsman who remembers his training and keeps his cool might do alright. A veteran of many campaigns will dispatch an ork without too much trouble (unless they're a particularly powerful ork).
Tyranids are basically apex predators, so without synapse an armed guardsman stands a chance of offing one, though it is dangerous. The issue though is that with synapse, bugs are clever and devious, and they tend to swarm en-masse.
Necrons are designed to create fear and be unkillable. The average human would fall prey to this simple, yet effective design. A veteren would struggle unless he knew what to expect.
Eldar are superior to humans in a fight. They have better awareness, grace, agility and technology, plus long lifespans for more experience. The problem is they are also scared. Every eldar is deathly scared of chaos, of what might happen, of losing the race and most of all losing their soul. I get the impression this effects them more then other races.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
Pretty dire, but still salvagable if it gets its act together. It won't, though. It's basically in need of complete regime change in order to survive, and so needs something crucial (like a primarch returning) to make that happen.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
For the average marine, about 1000 years old. Depending on the person though it could be much longer.
What about the Void Dragon?
It is there, but currently not a threat. Better to ignore it and focus on other things, first.
How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
Titans can be as huge as skyscrapers and twice as wide. Spaceships are the size of super-tankers and sometimes bigger.
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Extremely so; I got into 40k through Space crusade. In that game there was an alien event card that would instantly turn one of your marines to chaos! The way I see it, with enough time and energy, more or less anyone could fall to chaos, it just takes the right buttons to be pushed. The thing is though, Chaos gods are careful in who they select. Why waste years of effort turning someone when there are trillions of others in the galaxy who will turn easily? A sister of battle is so hardened and close minded in her faith that it would take chaos far too much effort to sway them, so better to kill them instead.
How large are the Hive Fleets?
Unimaginable in size, about 1/3 the size of our entire galaxy. The problem is, they starve easy. It takes a lot of resources to keep that much biomass alive, and once a fleet starts to diminish it's in big trouble.
Regarding chaos corruption, I'd always seen it as temptation. Those who are more strong willed or pure of heart can resist it more readily. Also, certain decisions weaken your "soul" and make you more susceptible to corruption.
Regarding hive fleets, I have a slightly different interpretation.
I have always taken the hive mind to not be a separate entity to the organisms that controls them, but the collective group thinking of all the linked organisms in that hive fleet. The shadow in the warp is simply the oppressive "heaviness" of all the psychic chatter going on between the different organisms, and just the collective presence of all that consciousness in the warp. I view each hive fleet as just one that got isolated and evolved independently, or there was an accidental mutation and a separate consciousness splintered off, or a hive fleet created a "child" fleet and set it off. I don't think the nids have any particular plan, beyond survival and reproduction.
Basically each tyranid organism can be fought of as one individual cell, with entire broods representing a limb or a finger of the overall body that is the hive fleet.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
[extra-heretical headcanon] I don't think the Imperium is 10,000 years old. I think somebody took advantage of missing records and inconsistent dating systems to multiply the duration of major historical events and periods by 10, not just to feth with people's heads but to reinforce the idea that the Imperium has always been around and always will be.
Imagine you're a member of the elite on Planet Whatever. (I say elite because the masses probably don't care). You have reliable records of Whateverian history going back maybe a thousand years, at most, before it all gets blurry and there seems to have been some kind of huge disaster. But, gosh, that's just a fraction of the history of the mighty Imperium, isn't it?
Well, no, it's not. Your civilization has been around just as long as the Imperium, and that cataclysmic period when your historical records go all fuzzy isn't some local disaster when your world was cut off by a warp storm, it's the goddamn Age of Strife.
Why am I constructing such elaborate heresy? Because I can suspend disbelief for Titans and giant flying cathedrals, but I just cannot make myself believe any political system or religion can endure 10,000 years -- that's about the same length of time as there is between the present day and the invention of agriculture: all recorded history from Sumer to the Roman Empire to the iPhone 5 fits in a bit over 5,000 years. I majored in history, I read a lot of history, and when I look at GW's fluff there just isn't enough. Yeah, sure, lots of wars, but major socio-political changes appear to be limited to the Great Crusade, the Heresy, the rise of Emperor-worship and the Ecclesiarchy, and the Age of Apostasy and subsequent reformation. Yes, I know the whole setting is Turned Up To 11, but people are still supposed to be people, and the one thing about people that doesn't change is that they keep changing.
So I developed the rule of thumb that whenever I read about an event lasting more than 100 years, I divided its duration by 10. (You need to do something similar with the lifespans of Sumerian kings and biblical patriarchs).
We already know the Inquisition has an entire Ordo devoted to falsifying history and destroying inconvenient records about the Inquisition itself (the Ordo Redactus). And a lot of people, myself included, already consider the fluff we read to be translations of in-universe propaganda. That's typically Imperial propaganda, but I can imagine that the Eldar really want to come off as tragically awesome and awesomely tragic as their Codex makes them sound ("oh woe is me how the mighty have fallen but I'm still better than you at everything ever" -- bloody emo xenos), and that Chaos really wants to sound that transgressive and, well, icky as a giant middle finger to Daddy Emperor and his conventional bourgeois values, kind of like that "artist" that put a crucifix in a vat of urine. It's not too far a step (at least for me) to wondering if the absurdly long timelines are propaganda, too.
[/extra-heretical headcanon]
Also I don't think the Imperium is as doomed as some fluff makes it out to be -- again, I think of that as propaganda to get people to pay their tithes on time lest the universe end -- and I suspect it can keep blundering along for a few centuries yet. And on a much smaller scale, I imagine most people in the galaxy to be a lot less intense and "there is only WAR!" than the fluff makes them out to be. (That's why I like the Ciaiphas Cain stories). Everybody can't be fighting to the death all the time, they'd all be dead by now. I imagine Imperial forces, from the Guard on up to Sisters and Marines, to be a lot like the people I know in the military, who like all human beings are gloriously inconsistent creatures, sometimes heroic and sometimes petty. (Another reason to like Cain).
[shameless self-promotion]Hence my anti-heroic Sororitas fanfiction, linked in my signature below.[/shameless self-promotion]
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/12/24 05:20:07
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
In Detail:
The Necrons would not be able to handle the full force of the IOM with the remaining primarchs, and a revived Emperor in a new crusade. Let alone what humanity had in the first Great Crusade or the Age of Darkness.
The Silent King will likely help Mankind fend off the awakened Void Dragon due to his guilt about his actions.
Dark Eldar are the evilest most conniving tossers in the Galaxy. And they don't have cool stuff. They said hurtful things. They are far faster than even Astartes, but to use this they need to get close which means they get minced (unarmed) with even punches.
The Eldar are steadily gaining in numbers. Biding their time for when things finally come to a boiling point.
Phoenix kings are not the equivalent of Primarchs. If the Phoenix Kings were peashooters then Primarchs would be gold plated, .50 cal, full auto, belt fed Desert Eagles
Chaos has an interesting duality due to not being chaotic. For example Khorne has very specific rules to his bloodshed: No champions fighting eachother, no killing the unarmed, no killing infants. Not only this but they purposefully keep the galaxy in a state of strife, despite having all they need to win, so they can stay alive and enjoy their struggles amongst each other. For if either side were to win without everyone converting to Chaos, Chaos would die. In this sense Chaos is very "unchaotic"
The Tyranids are running from worshippers of Chaos from another Galaxy. Chaos Gods being bound to one Galaxy doesn't make sense when the warp is a universal dimension and the Chaos Gods are the most powerful thing in it.
The Chaos Gods have physical forms while they dwell in the warp. How this is not understood is beyond me, when they interact with each other through beating each other up, and some of the best art in the mythos is of Khorne on the Skull Throne. The finer details of his form hidden by the shadows.
Primarchs were capable of absolutely silly gak. Like wrestling titans to the ground, and taking starship weaponry without giving a single crap. This happens in the ONLY detailed descriptions of primarch capabilities but some people aren't as gifted with basic logical reasoning.
Yes the Emperor was capable of firing lasers more powerful than Supernovas. Just as it says in the fluff. For God's sake people the only argument against this is that "the laser would've destroyed the earth or at least the ship". Well someone doesn't understand the concept of "condensed". A duck is a noun, not an adjective. So is a Supernova. It doesn't even say "like" in the description. It literally says "more powerful than a supernova."
Battleships regularly take moonbusting hits and Primarch's flagships are completely unaffected by destructive power of this magnitude.
(Nova cannons can easily destroy relatively large moons, and battleships can handle these, albeit damaged)
The Void Dragon is enslaved unsharded underneath Mars and if the Emperor doesn't revive to kick it's ass again it will tear apart the Imperium before any reinforcements can arrive.
Leman Russ, Alpharius, Omegon, Vulkan, Guilliman, Rogal Dorn, Jaghatai Khan, and Lion El Johnson, are all alive and ready to kick ass when the moment comes.
The Imperium numbers in at roughly a quadrillion lives. The Eldar (CW) number in the small billions. The DE number in the high billions-low trillions. The Orks number in the Pintillions.
There are a million marines, capable of rapidly replacing losses, and they can be called on when the Guard fails. They are 10 times stronger, 10 times faster, 10 time tougher, and 10 times more clever than any Man can normally be even with intense training. And that's unarmored.
The Imperium is keeping their pace, and not losing population. They are however losing resources and are still pretty hard fethed if they don't get their gak together. If the Emperor for some reason revives than they begin to rapidly unite, proliferate, expand, unify, advance, and possibly move on to take on other galaxies.
The Golden Throne is actually keeping the Emperor from reviving due to him being a Perpetual. This is so the High Lords can keep their power.
If the Emperor were to die and he were to go to the warp he would suddenly be empowered by all the worship to him.
That's it for now.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/12/24 06:14:49
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
[extra-heretical headcanon] I don't think the Imperium is 10,000 years old. I think somebody took advantage of missing records and inconsistent dating systems to multiply the duration of major historical events and periods by 10, not just to feth with people's heads but to reinforce the idea that the Imperium has always been around and always will be.
Imagine you're a member of the elite on Planet Whatever. (I say elite because the masses probably don't care). You have reliable records of Whateverian history going back maybe a thousand years, at most, before it all gets blurry and there seems to have been some kind of huge disaster. But, gosh, that's just a fraction of the history of the mighty Imperium, isn't it?
Well, no, it's not. Your civilization has been around just as long as the Imperium, and that cataclysmic period when your historical records go all fuzzy isn't some local disaster when your world was cut off by a warp storm, it's the goddamn Age of Strife.
Why am I constructing such elaborate heresy? Because I can suspend disbelief for Titans and giant flying cathedrals, but I just cannot make myself believe any political system or religion can endure 10,000 years -- that's about the same length of time as there is between the present day and the invention of agriculture: all recorded history from Sumer to the Roman Empire to the iPhone 5 fits in a bit over 5,000 years. I majored in history, I read a lot of history, and when I look at GW's fluff there just isn't enough. Yeah, sure, lots of wars, but major socio-political changes appear to be limited to the Great Crusade, the Heresy, the rise of Emperor-worship and the Ecclesiarchy, and the Age of Apostasy and subsequent reformation. Yes, I know the whole setting is Turned Up To 11, but people are still supposed to be people, and the one thing about people that doesn't change is that they keep changing.
So I developed the rule of thumb that whenever I read about an event lasting more than 100 years, I divided its duration by 10. (You need to do something similar with the lifespans of Sumerian kings and biblical patriarchs).
We already know the Inquisition has an entire Ordo devoted to falsifying history and destroying inconvenient records about the Inquisition itself (the Ordo Redactus). And a lot of people, myself included, already consider the fluff we read to be translations of in-universe propaganda. That's typically Imperial propaganda, but I can imagine that the Eldar really want to come off as tragically awesome and awesomely tragic as their Codex makes them sound ("oh woe is me how the mighty have fallen but I'm still better than you at everything ever" -- bloody emo xenos), and that Chaos really wants to sound that transgressive and, well, icky as a giant middle finger to Daddy Emperor and his conventional bourgeois values, kind of like that "artist" that put a crucifix in a vat of urine. It's not too far a step (at least for me) to wondering if the absurdly long timelines are propaganda, too.
[/extra-heretical headcanon]
Also I don't think the Imperium is as doomed as some fluff makes it out to be -- again, I think of that as propaganda to get people to pay their tithes on time lest the universe end -- and I suspect it can keep blundering along for a few centuries yet. And on a much smaller scale, I imagine most people in the galaxy to be a lot less intense and "there is only WAR!" than the fluff makes them out to be. (That's why I like the Ciaiphas Cain stories). Everybody can't be fighting to the death all the time, they'd all be dead by now. I imagine Imperial forces, from the Guard on up to Sisters and Marines, to be a lot like the people I know in the military, who like all human beings are gloriously inconsistent creatures, sometimes heroic and sometimes petty. (Another reason to like Cain).
[shameless self-promotion]Hence my anti-heroic Sororitas fanfiction, linked in my signature below.[/shameless self-promotion]
You're forgetting the Imperium isn't a unified culture. All the Imperium is, is a federation ruled by extremely long-lived individuals/practically immortal lines in control of a massive military force. The Imperium pretty much is just Terra and the main branches of the military. Every single little planet is its own incredibly unique culture with its own development and own falls and rises. The only time the 'Imperium' even comes into existence for the average planet is in the very infrequent times that a large ship with a lot of guns collects the planets respective tithe and moves on. That's it. The IOM really isn't at all that unified and you often have planets being deleted from the database/completely forgotten.
Your average Imperium citizen is also unlikely to experience the 'total war' that grips the galaxy, as even during an eternal state of eternal war- humans control a greater portion of the entire galaxy. Citizens are much more likely to live their lives free of intrusion by Xenos or Chaos- much more likely to die from disease, accidents, or even old age. The lore tends to hammer down that the IOM is one unified massive empire, but the fluff points out that this really isn't the case. The IOM's just a totalitarian federation ruled by a transhuman/posthuman ruling and upper class with the average citizens and entire planetary cultures left to live their own lives so long as they pay their respective tithe and aren't invaded/cause heresy. It's not that unreasonable for them to last ten thousand years. It's not like Star Wars with the Galactic Empire being an overbearing ruler micromanaging everyone and thus tripping over its own bureaucracy. It's more of a distant police state that you're very unlikely to even come into contact with unless hits the fan and Xenos attack or the Archenemy plants down roots.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
1) Why the Imperium probably isn't 10,000 years old
Spoiler:
Definitely agreed that "the Imperium" and its wars are a remote presence for many star systems, even most, where local conflicts and forms of governance loom much larger.
But there are two aspects of the Imperium that do touch almost every world and which have endured for thousands of years:
1) The tithe. Yes, the planetary governor collects the tithe however he or she sees fit, perhaps with some Administratum clerks and Arbites to help/watch him. But the very fact the tithe must be collected -- and that failure to collect it triggers Imperial intervention eventually -- affects the politics and economy of almost every world.
2) Emperor worship. The Ecclesiarchy has some presence almost everywhere, even if it's just a few missionaries or a local cult that's barely recognizable as the same religion practiced on Holy Terra. This hasn't been around as long as the tithe, but any form of interplanetary government would collect some kind of taxes: a universal religion, however loosely defined, is much harder to sustain over millennia.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and to finally address the original poster's questions:
Spoiler:
- the Warp is weird, so however old the Imperium actually is, there are Chaos Marines still alive who were part of the original Heresy. Regular Marines who live in normal space-time without capricious daemonic patrons occasionally bringing them back to life don't last so long: even if they don't age at all (unlikely, since they still start life as humans), the law of averages means bad luck will eventually catch up with even the most skilled and well-equipped warrior, and in decades rather than centuries in almost all cases.
I see Marines as supermen but not Super Man. They're much better individually than ordinary humans, but the real secret of their success is not some Mary Sue ability to scythe through hordes of foes unharmed but the canny tactics of a force that only goes after critical targets and makes sure to do so with overwhelming force, speed, and surprise -- much like real-life SEALs or Delta Force. The evenly matched battles we see on the tabletop only occur when something goes terribly wrong.
- the Guard varies all over the place, and I think the in-game terminology has it about right: the Conscripts are half-trained troops thrown more or less unwillingly into the line, like most of the Red Army in World War II; the regular Guardsmen are equal to any modern professional soldier; and the Stormtroopers could qualify for US Special Operations Forces or the Russian Spetznaz. And when they come up against local rebels or minor xenos races, they steamroller them. It's just that the universe is so unrelentingly horrible that they routinely have to face the kinds of armies we see on the tabletop, and then even SOF-level troops die in droves like WWI soldiers at the Somme. Guard commanders aren't callous about casualties because they're idiots (well, not usually), they're callous because they have to be to get the job done against superhuman enemies.
- Sisters of Battle are, I agree, the peak of what a normal human can accomplish with the best possible equipment and a lifetime of training. (Depending on how your interpret Acts of Faith, they may also be the first step towards the Emperor's goal of a race of stable psykers). I don't see them as mindless zealots but as real human beings with a sense of humor and tactics.
- Xenos are a major threat but none of them can defeat the Imperium on its own: Eldar and Necrons have amazing tech but they are too few in numbers and too divided politically; Orks have terrifying numbers and natural fighting skills but poor tech and worse organizational skills; Tau have high tech and political unity, but they're already starting to lose the latter (Farsight Enclaves) as they grow beyond a blip on the galactic map; Tyranids come closest to an existential Xenos threat but I discount the more enormous numbers out there in some fluff.
- So the real threat to the Imperium is Chaos, the traitors within opening the way for the traitors without. But the traitor Marines are few in number and daemons have trouble entering realspace, so they depend on widespread corruption to open the way... and while Chaos can corrupt any individual they capture given sufficient time -- even the strongest have a breaking point -- the Ruinous Powers need time and subtlety to corrupt large populations on worlds they don't always control, which usually gives the Inquisition et al time to realize what's happening and react. Arguably the Ecclesiarchy acts as the Imperium's immune system, purging nascent chaos cults, without necessarily even realizing what they really are, as part of its generalized intolerance. Even if a planet does fall, individual star systems are so isolated by distance that the Imperium can mobilize crushing force to burn out the infection before it spread..
What Chaos needs is a widespread breakdown in order -- eg the kind Abaddon is trying to cause with his crusades -- to overload the Imperial security services and give corruption freedom to fester and thrive. Then the daemons and traitor Marines can move in to take over corrupted worlds faster than the Imperium can crush them, then use those worlds as bases for further offensives that cause further disorder that permits further corruption. If this vicious cycle really gets going, it is the one thing that could rip the Imperium apart.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/12/24 17:40:29
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
Spoiler:
[extra-heretical headcanon] I don't think the Imperium is 10,000 years old. I think somebody took advantage of missing records and inconsistent dating systems to multiply the duration of major historical events and periods by 10, not just to feth with people's heads but to reinforce the idea that the Imperium has always been around and always will be.
Imagine you're a member of the elite on Planet Whatever. (I say elite because the masses probably don't care). You have reliable records of Whateverian history going back maybe a thousand years, at most, before it all gets blurry and there seems to have been some kind of huge disaster. But, gosh, that's just a fraction of the history of the mighty Imperium, isn't it?
Well, no, it's not. Your civilization has been around just as long as the Imperium, and that cataclysmic period when your historical records go all fuzzy isn't some local disaster when your world was cut off by a warp storm, it's the goddamn Age of Strife.
Why am I constructing such elaborate heresy? Because I can suspend disbelief for Titans and giant flying cathedrals, but I just cannot make myself believe any political system or religion can endure 10,000 years -- that's about the same length of time as there is between the present day and the invention of agriculture: all recorded history from Sumer to the Roman Empire to the iPhone 5 fits in a bit over 5,000 years. I majored in history, I read a lot of history, and when I look at GW's fluff there just isn't enough. Yeah, sure, lots of wars, but major socio-political changes appear to be limited to the Great Crusade, the Heresy, the rise of Emperor-worship and the Ecclesiarchy, and the Age of Apostasy and subsequent reformation. Yes, I know the whole setting is Turned Up To 11, but people are still supposed to be people, and the one thing about people that doesn't change is that they keep changing.
So I developed the rule of thumb that whenever I read about an event lasting more than 100 years, I divided its duration by 10. (You need to do something similar with the lifespans of Sumerian kings and biblical patriarchs).
We already know the Inquisition has an entire Ordo devoted to falsifying history and destroying inconvenient records about the Inquisition itself (the Ordo Redactus). And a lot of people, myself included, already consider the fluff we read to be translations of in-universe propaganda. That's typically Imperial propaganda, but I can imagine that the Eldar really want to come off as tragically awesome and awesomely tragic as their Codex makes them sound ("oh woe is me how the mighty have fallen but I'm still better than you at everything ever" -- bloody emo xenos), and that Chaos really wants to sound that transgressive and, well, icky as a giant middle finger to Daddy Emperor and his conventional bourgeois values, kind of like that "artist" that put a crucifix in a vat of urine. It's not too far a step (at least for me) to wondering if the absurdly long timelines are propaganda, too.
[/extra-heretical headcanon]
Also I don't think the Imperium is as doomed as some fluff makes it out to be -- again, I think of that as propaganda to get people to pay their tithes on time lest the universe end -- and I suspect it can keep blundering along for a few centuries yet. And on a much smaller scale, I imagine most people in the galaxy to be a lot less intense and "there is only WAR!" than the fluff makes them out to be. (That's why I like the Ciaiphas Cain stories). Everybody can't be fighting to the death all the time, they'd all be dead by now. I imagine Imperial forces, from the Guard on up to Sisters and Marines, to be a lot like the people I know in the military, who like all human beings are gloriously inconsistent creatures, sometimes heroic and sometimes petty. (Another reason to like Cain).
[shameless self-promotion]Hence my anti-heroic Sororitas fanfiction, linked in my signature below.[/shameless self-promotion]
That was eloquent and intelligent. Have an exalt.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Thank you, my friend. And I mean friend in the highly specific technical sense of "I have just hit the friend button so I can more easily see what you post."
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
So I saw this thread.... and couldn't resist. Coffee is brewed, there is no official work to be done...
How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
Hmn... the minis are in 28mm. 28mm(approx 1.5in) = 6ft in scale. The weapons only seem to have an effective range of 24 to 48 inches. (24*1.5)6 = 216 feet or 72 yards. In modern warfare a typical engagment distance is 300 yards and the effective point range for the M4 carbine in 5.56 mm is 500 yards.... So in reality all the weapons in 40K suck. You only get to shoot once a turn. The following discussion posits that a game is only about a minute long:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392172.page If you get to shoot your bolter or guass weapon four times in a game (or four times a minute) then you only moderately have improved on a rifled musket circa 1860. According to Hardees Light Infantry and Rifle Tactics a good Soldiers should be able to fire a musket three times a minute using the command "Load in nine times."
The Spehs Maurines look really cool in their battleshorts but lets face it, they can only run 288 feet a minute.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
None of the Imperium's enemies have weapons that are any better, but I reckon the huge amount of debt the Imperium has incurred and the massive entitlement spending will hurl the Imperium into Chaos. *Something about that doesn't read right to me.... *
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
There was a story in one of the Heresey novels about an old marine named Cruz who told endless stories "about the good old days" and everybody ignored because he seemed somewhat useless, so I imagine they get very old indeed and tend to ruin Christmas dinner on the Battelbarge Command Mess every year.
What about the Void Dragon?
Not as scary as the Puke Dragon that came out after I drank all that peppermint schnapps.
How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
The Titans look big, but the Argonauts beat them at the end of the book. The Spaceships make the thing from Spaceballs look tiny, I think the High Lords are compensating for something.
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
See me writing this? I earned the mark of Slaneesh in College... its the gift that keeps on giving.
How large are the Hive Fleets?
Billions of quadrillions of bioships bristling with terrible weapons, that were all swallowed by a small dog due to a terrible miscalculation of scale.
Thanks for letting me have fun with that one.
- J
"Others however will call me the World's Sexiest Killing Machine, that's fun at parties." - Bender Bending Rodriguez
- 3,000 points, and growing!
BFG - 1500 points
WFB Bretonnia - 2200 points (peasant army).
WAB Ancient Israeli (Canaanites) 2500 points
WAB English 100 Years War (3000 points).
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Definitely agreed that "the Imperium" and its wars are a remote presence for many star systems, even most, where local conflicts and forms of governance loom much larger.
But there are two aspects of the Imperium that do touch almost every world and which have endured for thousands of years:
1) The tithe. Yes, the planetary governor collects the tithe however he or she sees fit, perhaps with some Administratum clerks and Arbites to help/watch him. But the very fact the tithe must be collected -- and that failure to collect it triggers Imperial intervention eventually -- affects the politics and economy of almost every world.
2) Emperor worship. The Ecclesiarchy has some presence almost everywhere, even if it's just a few missionaries or a local cult that's barely recognizable as the same religion practiced on Holy Terra. This hasn't been around as long as the tithe, but any form of interplanetary government would collect some kind of taxes: a universal religion, however loosely defined, is much harder to sustain over millennia.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and to finally address the original poster's questions:
Spoiler:
- the Warp is weird, so however old the Imperium actually is, there are Chaos Marines still alive who were part of the original Heresy. Regular Marines who live in normal space-time without capricious daemonic patrons occasionally bringing them back to life don't last so long: even if they don't age at all (unlikely, since they still start life as humans), the law of averages means bad luck will eventually catch up with even the most skilled and well-equipped warrior, and in decades rather than centuries in almost all cases.
I see Marines as supermen but not Super Man. They're much better individually than ordinary humans, but the real secret of their success is not some Mary Sue ability to scythe through hordes of foes unharmed but the canny tactics of a force that only goes after critical targets and makes sure to do so with overwhelming force, speed, and surprise -- much like real-life SEALs or Delta Force. The evenly matched battles we see on the tabletop only occur when something goes terribly wrong.
- the Guard varies all over the place, and I think the in-game terminology has it about right: the Conscripts are half-trained troops thrown more or less unwillingly into the line, like most of the Red Army in World War II; the regular Guardsmen are equal to any modern professional soldier; and the Stormtroopers could qualify for US Special Operations Forces or the Russian Spetznaz. And when they come up against local rebels or minor xenos races, they steamroller them. It's just that the universe is so unrelentingly horrible that they routinely have to face the kinds of armies we see on the tabletop, and then even SOF-level troops die in droves like WWI soldiers at the Somme. Guard commanders aren't callous about casualties because they're idiots (well, not usually), they're callous because they have to be to get the job done against superhuman enemies.
- Sisters of Battle are, I agree, the peak of what a normal human can accomplish with the best possible equipment and a lifetime of training. (Depending on how your interpret Acts of Faith, they may also be the first step towards the Emperor's goal of a race of stable psykers). I don't see them as mindless zealots but as real human beings with a sense of humor and tactics.
- Xenos are a major threat but none of them can defeat the Imperium on its own: Eldar and Necrons have amazing tech but they are too few in numbers and too divided politically; Orks have terrifying numbers and natural fighting skills but poor tech and worse organizational skills; Tau have high tech and political unity, but they're already starting to lose the latter (Farsight Enclaves) as they grow beyond a blip on the galactic map; Tyranids come closest to an existential Xenos threat but I discount the more enormous numbers out there in some fluff.
- So the real threat to the Imperium is Chaos, the traitors within opening the way for the traitors without. But the traitor Marines are few in number and daemons have trouble entering realspace, so they depend on widespread corruption to open the way... and while Chaos can corrupt any individual they capture given sufficient time -- even the strongest have a breaking point -- the Ruinous Powers need time and subtlety to corrupt large populations on worlds they don't always control, which usually gives the Inquisition et al time to realize what's happening and react. Arguably the Ecclesiarchy acts as the Imperium's immune system, purging nascent chaos cults, without necessarily even realizing what they really are, as part of its generalized intolerance. Even if a planet does fall, individual star systems are so isolated by distance that the Imperium can mobilize crushing force to burn out the infection before it spread..
What Chaos needs is a widespread breakdown in order -- eg the kind Abaddon is trying to cause with his crusades -- to overload the Imperial security services and give corruption freedom to fester and thrive. Then the daemons and traitor Marines can move in to take over corrupted worlds faster than the Imperium can crush them, then use those worlds as bases for further offensives that cause further disorder that permits further corruption. If this vicious cycle really gets going, it is the one thing that could rip the Imperium apart.
Only we also have examples of the administration taking little interest in planets. Their MO is to simply check for signs of heresy, make sure the big god in the sky the locals are worshiping are attributed tot he Emperor, and then they're good. And planets don't have unlimited lifespans. Death of Antagonis (and I think one of the FFRPG books mentions stuff similar to this), and a Hive World featured is acknowledged to be dying, and there even is a scale with which the Imperium classifies such worlds. Planet's aren't infinite in their age and the cultures in them. The people populated in the Hive World are pretty much idiot savages that have forgotten innovation and building and pretty much just live in the grand cities their ancestors built. The planet's mined all possible resources and is vastly overpopulated and about to suffer and imminent collapse into a feral or even a dead world. So it's not unknown within the IOM.
(Plus there's also a big culture change between Ancient Persia and a civilization spanning a galaxy forty thousand years in the future with magitech.)
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2013/12/28 23:39:36
Subject: Re:Your own mental picture of 40K's setting
How powerful are the troops of each faction really? There is no doubt that the imperium is very powerful, space marines are the match of anything out there, but they are very limited in number and rely on superior tactics and combining of operations with massive guard armies and mechanicum deployments. While this coordination is possible (via astropaths, navigators etc), the Imperium will be incredibly tough to destroy. I think the biggest threat, as in 30k, is from within.
Chaos again has undoubted massive power, the fact that daemons are pretty much eternal means that they can effectively bide their time until there is an opportune weakness to exploit, which could be down to another massive heresy, espionage and undermining by agents such as the Alpha Legion, cults etc. Their weakness is that they are divided, fighting each other rather than uniting under a joint cause.
Orks have again access to huge numbers, but once again fall down on not working as a combined species.
Eldar can just about defend themselves, in an even set piece have the tech and ability to give anyone a fight, but I don't see them as ever reestablishing themselves and perhaps one by one their craftworlds will be zapped by Hive fleets or Black Crusades etc.
Dark Eldar suffer the same kind of problems of the Eldar.
Tyranids are a major threat, the descriptions in the new codex suggest vast potential to at any moment swamp the galaxy, blocking all the communication and thus coordination abilities that the Imperium depends upon.
Tau are on the up, no doubt. But still come across as fragile should a massive waaagh or something like a Macharian campaign in their direction. Their less xenophobic nature could be their undoing too, it's a mean galaxy.
Necrons seem like a proper threat too purely because not enough is known about them. At any moment a untold billions could arise.
Incase you meant a more direct question about the individual troops, a list in order (assuming no frills like chaos marks etc)..
Space marine (Tactical marine as codex) / Chaos Marine
Necron Warrior (marginally behind the astartes)
Genestealer
Eldar Guardian
Dark Eldar warrior
Ork Boy (really not sure, on a good day should be above both eldar)
Tau Fire warrior
Imperial Guardsman
I may run a series of head to heads with these just to test out this list, but I take into account fluff such as tactical knowledge, aggression etc so the straight on dice rolls don't tell the whole story.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation? As I mentioned earlier, while the vast spread of the Imperium can communicate and deploy it will probably be ok unless a hive fleet of even more epic proportion than those witnessed already rolls through. The dangers of betrayal and being subverted from within is a real threat. Ofcourse they could if they wanted allow Astartes to have massive legions again but can they risk that..
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
Marines can live for hundreds of years, Dante (albeit down to Blood Angels geneseed) is over 1100 years old. Not too hard to conceive that idea if people today are living over 100 without any genetic conditioning and without the benefit of 38000 years of medical science.
As for Traitor Legion marines, time doesn't work the same in the warp or in the eye of terror so although they appear to be over 10000 years old, that much time may not really have been experienced by them. Aside from perhaps the favour of the Chaos gods perhaps preventing death.
What about the Void Dragon? A c'tan god of some sort, seems to be bound under Mars surface. The mechanicum treating the emperor as their god suggests some merit to the legends from the age of strife.
How large are Titans? How large are spaceships? According to my old copy of Epic, an Imperator stands at 55.5 metres which is roughly the wingspan of a 777 airliner. A Warhound is about a quarter of the size. Not exactly walking skyscrapers. The ships are regularly described as being several kilometers long for the big battleships etc.
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually? Chaos is a real threat to mankind via corruption, it appeals to base instincts and feeds on primal desires (except Nurgle, don't get the appeal atall). First and foremost it promises power, which considering the conditions the vast majority of people have to endure in hive cities, death worlds etc you can see why people take an interest, and why the Inquisition tries to maintain the level of ignorance among the masses. I don't understand why it seems to thrive only among humans though, what puts Khorne off from recruiting a billion Orks?
How large are the Hive Fleets? Hard to guess, the real fear is that they are big enough to encompass the galaxy. Equally, we could have seen them at their zenith, marauding relatively small fleets.
My musings, as someone who has been following 40k for around 25 years. (which means I am a little of a traditionalist with lore, (I'm looking at you Matt Ward ) )
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/29 00:13:01
2000 Blood Angels
1500 Ulthwe
1500 Word Bearers
2500 Imperial Guard
1500 Tyranids
1000 My own chapter
2013/12/29 10:28:55
Subject: Re:Your own mental picture of 40K's setting
imperialmint wrote: I don't understand why it seems to thrive only among humans though, what puts Khorne off from recruiting a billion Orks?
There are some Orks that follow Khorne, but Orks are usually too thick-headed to swap religions. Only humans really go for religious zealotry.
And Khorne derives power and abstract worship from all battles, angry people, and blood loss/lust.
From Rogue Trader: Ork Freebooters. Pag 14, Khorne Stormboyz: "Worship of the Chaos Powers is not tolerated amongst sane and sensible Orks, but the Cult is rampant amongst Freebooter Stormboyz. The Blood God epitomizes the martial virtues which they hold dear, including a harsh disciplinary code, binding rules governing their conduct as honourable warriors and, of course, a life of almost continous blood-letting".
I liked Khorne Stormboyz, hope they get some attention (or rules) again.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
[extra-heretical headcanon] I don't think the Imperium is 10,000 years old. I think somebody took advantage of missing records and inconsistent dating systems to multiply the duration of major historical events and periods by 10, not just to feth with people's heads but to reinforce the idea that the Imperium has always been around and always will be.
Imagine you're a member of the elite on Planet Whatever. (I say elite because the masses probably don't care). You have reliable records of Whateverian history going back maybe a thousand years, at most, before it all gets blurry and there seems to have been some kind of huge disaster. But, gosh, that's just a fraction of the history of the mighty Imperium, isn't it?
Well, no, it's not. Your civilization has been around just as long as the Imperium, and that cataclysmic period when your historical records go all fuzzy isn't some local disaster when your world was cut off by a warp storm, it's the goddamn Age of Strife.
Why am I constructing such elaborate heresy? Because I can suspend disbelief for Titans and giant flying cathedrals, but I just cannot make myself believe any political system or religion can endure 10,000 years -- that's about the same length of time as there is between the present day and the invention of agriculture: all recorded history from Sumer to the Roman Empire to the iPhone 5 fits in a bit over 5,000 years. I majored in history, I read a lot of history, and when I look at GW's fluff there just isn't enough. Yeah, sure, lots of wars, but major socio-political changes appear to be limited to the Great Crusade, the Heresy, the rise of Emperor-worship and the Ecclesiarchy, and the Age of Apostasy and subsequent reformation. Yes, I know the whole setting is Turned Up To 11, but people are still supposed to be people, and the one thing about people that doesn't change is that they keep changing.
So I developed the rule of thumb that whenever I read about an event lasting more than 100 years, I divided its duration by 10. (You need to do something similar with the lifespans of Sumerian kings and biblical patriarchs).
We already know the Inquisition has an entire Ordo devoted to falsifying history and destroying inconvenient records about the Inquisition itself (the Ordo Redactus). And a lot of people, myself included, already consider the fluff we read to be translations of in-universe propaganda. That's typically Imperial propaganda, but I can imagine that the Eldar really want to come off as tragically awesome and awesomely tragic as their Codex makes them sound ("oh woe is me how the mighty have fallen but I'm still better than you at everything ever" -- bloody emo xenos), and that Chaos really wants to sound that transgressive and, well, icky as a giant middle finger to Daddy Emperor and his conventional bourgeois values, kind of like that "artist" that put a crucifix in a vat of urine. It's not too far a step (at least for me) to wondering if the absurdly long timelines are propaganda, too.
[/extra-heretical headcanon]
Also I don't think the Imperium is as doomed as some fluff makes it out to be -- again, I think of that as propaganda to get people to pay their tithes on time lest the universe end -- and I suspect it can keep blundering along for a few centuries yet. And on a much smaller scale, I imagine most people in the galaxy to be a lot less intense and "there is only WAR!" than the fluff makes them out to be. (That's why I like the Ciaiphas Cain stories). Everybody can't be fighting to the death all the time, they'd all be dead by now. I imagine Imperial forces, from the Guard on up to Sisters and Marines, to be a lot like the people I know in the military, who like all human beings are gloriously inconsistent creatures, sometimes heroic and sometimes petty. (Another reason to like Cain).
[shameless self-promotion]Hence my anti-heroic Sororitas fanfiction, linked in my signature below.[/shameless self-promotion]
You're forgetting the Imperium isn't a unified culture. All the Imperium is, is a federation ruled by extremely long-lived individuals/practically immortal lines in control of a massive military force. The Imperium pretty much is just Terra and the main branches of the military. Every single little planet is its own incredibly unique culture with its own development and own falls and rises. The only time the 'Imperium' even comes into existence for the average planet is in the very infrequent times that a large ship with a lot of guns collects the planets respective tithe and moves on. That's it. The IOM really isn't at all that unified and you often have planets being deleted from the database/completely forgotten.
Your average Imperium citizen is also unlikely to experience the 'total war' that grips the galaxy, as even during an eternal state of eternal war- humans control a greater portion of the entire galaxy. Citizens are much more likely to live their lives free of intrusion by Xenos or Chaos- much more likely to die from disease, accidents, or even old age. The lore tends to hammer down that the IOM is one unified massive empire, but the fluff points out that this really isn't the case. The IOM's just a totalitarian federation ruled by a transhuman/posthuman ruling and upper class with the average citizens and entire planetary cultures left to live their own lives so long as they pay their respective tithe and aren't invaded/cause heresy. It's not that unreasonable for them to last ten thousand years. It's not like Star Wars with the Galactic Empire being an overbearing ruler micromanaging everyone and thus tripping over its own bureaucracy. It's more of a distant police state that you're very unlikely to even come into contact with unless hits the fan and Xenos attack or the Archenemy plants down roots.
The problem with this head cannon is that there are still dreadnoughts from the great crusade and marines in excess of 1000 years old.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
GW and Black Library tell us they're over 1,000 years old. But if you consider all the fluff to be in-universe propaganda and the novels to be in-universe historical fiction, maybe somebody lied.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: GW and Black Library tell us they're over 1,000 years old. But if you consider all the fluff to be in-universe propaganda and the novels to be in-universe historical fiction, maybe somebody lied.
Well then there's another problem.
What about the immortal group of 10000 year old crazed Rambo motherf**ckers that are Chaos Marines?
Or Magnus single handedly stopping the advance of tens of thousands of SW, millions of Imperial Army troopers, and the sisters of silence in seconds with glares?
Propaganda is not something you spread about your enemies strength. You don't make them out to be unkillable gods.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 03:33:18
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
What we do know is that time passes seemingly at random in the Warp. Examples have been given of it passing both much slower and faster. For example, a Warboss in the Ork codex travelled in the Warp, but due to the randomness he emerged before he set off, even killing his past self in order to loot him.
I see it often being argued that CSM are much younger than it seems because time flows differently, but they are just as likely to be older. 100K years old Noise Marine who has had some time to savour the pleasantries of Slaanesh's realm? 56K years old Berzerker who has fought in the arenas of Khorne for far longer than he can remember? Fifty-year old Iron Warrior who has only spent moments in the Warp directly after the Heresy, but emerged to the 41st millennium?
SisterSydney wrote: GW and Black Library tell us they're over 1,000 years old. But if you consider all the fluff to be in-universe propaganda and the novels to be in-universe historical fiction, maybe somebody lied.
Well then there's another problem.
What about the immortal group of 10000 year old crazed Rambo motherf**ckers that are Chaos Marines?
Or Magnus single handedly stopping the advance of tens of thousands of SW, millions of Imperial Army troopers, and the sisters of silence in seconds with glares?
Propaganda is not something you spread about your enemies strength. You don't make them out to be unkillable gods.
Also thissssssss so much. It effectively disqualifies the 'propaganda' theory. Horus Rising would NEVER be propaganda since it made him likeable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 03:36:13
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Haven't read the Heresy novels, but do note that I allowed for "historical fiction" as well as outright propaganda. Maybe Horus Rising was written by a subversive? Also much of the Chaos fluff may be Chaos propaganda -- "look at us, we're so metal and transgressive and self destructive and feth you Father it's all your fault we did this to ourselves!.
But it doesn't have to be. Propagandists exaggerate the enemy's strength all the time, because nothing unifies and mobilizes your own population better than fear of the Other: Imperial Japan is going to invade California so we'd better round up all the Japanese Americans; the Reds are going to destroy the Free World unless we stop them in Vietnam; the Soviets are an Evil Empire so we'd better build Star Wars and a 600-ship navy; Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and is going to give them to al-Qaeda unless we invade now; al-Qaeda is everywhere so we need to track all your phone calls.
Political aside:
Spoiler:
I'm not saying al-Qaeda, Saddam, the Soviet Union, or Imperial Japan are/were not evil: They are/were genuine bad guys and genuine threats, just not the supervillains they're made out to be. And actually I think the NSA's collection of phone and email metadata is both legal and a good idea, though their putting backdoors in widely used systems is just begging for disaster...
And these are just examples from my own country in the last 75 years, in a modern, democratic country. Anyone who's read much history or lived in an authoritarian country can find much worse examples of not only demonizing enemies but also exaggerating their strength.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Bobthehero wrote: Its something I noticed, apparently propaganda can only be made by the Imperium.
Nope.
A lot of Chaos marines are solitary and they all hate each other anyway.
Propaganda is the last thing they would do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: Haven't read the Heresy novels, but do note that I allowed for "historical fiction" as well as outright propaganda. Maybe Horus Rising was written by a subversive? Also much of the Chaos fluff may be Chaos propaganda -- "look at us, we're so metal and transgressive and self destructive and feth you Father it's all your fault we did this to ourselves!.
But it doesn't have to be. Propagandists exaggerate the enemy's strength all the time, because nothing unifies and mobilizes your own population better than fear of the Other: Imperial Japan is going to invade California so we'd better round up all the Japanese Americans; the Reds are going to destroy the Free World unless we stop them in Vietnam; the Soviets are an Evil Empire so we'd better build Star Wars and a 600-ship navy; Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and is going to give them to al-Qaeda unless we invade now; al-Qaeda is everywhere so we need to track all your phone calls.
Political aside:
Spoiler:
I'm not saying al-Qaeda, Saddam, the Soviet Union, or Imperial Japan are/were not evil: They are/were genuine bad guys and genuine threats, just not the supervillains they're made out to be. And actually I think the NSA's collection of phone and email metadata is both legal and a good idea, though their putting backdoors in widely used systems is just begging for disaster...
And these are just examples from my own country in the last 75 years, in a modern, democratic country. Anyone who's read much history or lived in an authoritarian country can find much worse examples of not only demonizing enemies but also exaggerating their strength.
That isn't inspiring to know Magnus alone can do that. That's not rallying to the strength of an ally. It's portraying hopelessness against an unbeatable foe. Not very effective.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/30 05:31:20
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
2013/12/30 11:27:52
Subject: Re:Your own mental picture of 40K's setting
That's a very big question! But okay, I'll give my brief view of each. I'm defining "troops" as the average soldiers/warriors in said faction, though.
SoB: Very good military training and equipment, along with apparently super-humans feats bought on by their intense belief. Can hold their own against most, or at least put up a good fight.
Guardsmen: Individually, not all that strong, compared to everybody else. Their strength is in their numbers and heavy armour. With those, they can hold their own against most in a straight fight.
Marines: Superhumans, again with very god equipment and training.
Tyranids: If we're looking at just Gaunts, then not too bad. But they rely on numbers and their Synapse organisation to see them through. So in numbers (which the 'Nids usually have), they'll eventually overcome anyone else, save perhaps Necrons or Chaos.
Chaos Marines: more or less the same as Marines, but potentially boosted by Chaos.
Chaos Daemons: Bad news indeed. As creatures of the warp, they can corrupt and change the things around them, as well as having supernatural abilities. And, if we're thinking long-term, they're not actualy killed by most attacks anyway, just get sent back to the warp. Very dangerous, those fighting them should, ideally, be some sort of fearless or incorruptible.
Necrons: best technology and materials. Assuming they're present in sufficient force, they'll likely overcome anybody else.
Eldar: Technologically superior to most, can comfortably fight just about anybody, ideally.
Dark Eldar: About the same as the Eldar, I think? I don't really know the Eldars in too much depth, so I could be missing some edge that the DE have, here.
Orks: If they have the numbers and the leadership, they can krump anyone.
Tau: Very good technology on hand, though they have a notable weakness in close combat. Though that's what the Kroot are for.
Hmm, looks like I've basically said that the majority of them are more or less even, given ideal conditions. S'pose that's just the fact that they all have fluff that bigs them up. And it was just a biref, casual look over them anyway, so I wasn't expecting anything too accurate or insightful.
Ultimately, they're screwed. They can probably hold out for a while yet, but there's three key threats amassing agianst them. Chaos is stronger than ever, with cults being a constant problem and the 13th Black Crusade gaining a foothold on Cadia itself. Then there's the Necrons, far more advanced technologically and ever increasing in number. And if those two don't do it, then the Tyranids will. What's been seen so far are mere scouts, the Tyranids have several galaxies worth of biomass behind them. When they arrive in force, their numbers will be too great to withstand.
So yeah, in the face of these enemies, the Imperium will likely collapse. Of course, the Emperor could revive somehow and keep his Empire together, but with the above view I'm assuming that everything continues "as normal" without anything too miraculous happening.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
Don't know, I think it's something that the canon may be a little unclear on. I think that they could become too old and eventully die at some point, but am unsure exactly when, or even if this is correct. As for traitor Marines, as others have no doubt said, their being in the warp lets them cheat time in the Materium.
Unsure, it's all a bit vague, really. Assuming he is what he's thought to be, a C'tan god, he'll do a lot of damage if he wakes up. It is, perhaps, something that the Imperium could survive, with Mars, Terra and Titan all being nearby to combat the thing. But it'd probably damage Mars quite a bit.
Against an unprepared mind, very, assuming that it has opportunity and desire to bring its full "corruptive power" forward. Those that have strong enough wills and beliefs can resist it, though. And those who are just fighting against it without it making a concentrated effort to corrupt them can, perhaps, come out allright. But perhaps not always.
I suppose one random detail that I'd call my own interpretation is that at least some SoB are allowed to know about Daemons, even though knowledge of them is meant to be kept tightly under wraps. We have a story where the SoB leave a Daemon world in view of a GK ship (and apparently aren't killed for fighting against Daemons), and the Battle-Prayer of the Sisters of Battle references Daemons. This makes sense, IMO. SoB are highly resistant to corruption, so they coudl probably be trusted with the knowledge that Daemons are a thing.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
IG troopers are the baseline. Some are good, some are bad, depending on their training and the battlefield they fight on.
Space Marines are basically pointless, and are only kept around because of a decaying Imperium's traditions.
The Adeptus Mechanicus, I believe, have the most powerful Human military force.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
Not as bad as it sounds. Most Imperial citizens don't even know that there are bad guys - that means it can't be all bad.
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
The Warp alters time...
What about the Void Dragon?
I believe he is either 1) an intact C'Tan on Mars or 2) The Machine-God, really and truly, whom the Necrons misunderstood (and who is not a C'Tan).
How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
Huge and huger.
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Pretty damn sneaky - it'd be my worst fear as a human in the setting, if I knew about it.
How large are the Hive Fleets?
Massive. But they're coming in piecemeal, making them easier to deal with.
with a side of utterly 
"Surrender and Die." 
) )
2000 Blood Angels
1500 Ulthwe
1500 Tyranids
1000 My own chapter 
Member of 
DKoK Blog:
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.