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 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I repeat, no assaulting from reserve. And, Descent of Angels belong to the BA.

Descent of Angels is a name on the rule referred to in the 5e Marine books as Heroic Intervention, names are flexible. I'm not entirely sure about the problem with Assault from Deep Strike; the Blood Angels and the 5e Space Marines managed to do it for the entirety of 5e without breaking the game overmuch. You pay a premium for the unit and you're taking a tremendous risk on the Deep Strike scatter roll, it's not a reliable risk-free tactic. It gets an expensive unit to close combat effectively, it brings close combat back into relevance by requiring gunline armies to prepare for being charged instead of sitting around and being able to reliably count on shooting down CC armies before they get in.

The issue is not assaulting from deepstrike in itself. That might be balanced.

The issue is that, at this stage, almost nobody can do it. If not even VV or Raven Guard can, Centurion equivalents damn well shouldn't be able to.

The name Descent of Angels is already in use by the BA. In the BA codex, DoA lets you reroll scatter results.

If you read my initial post you might notice that my Seraphim are, in point of fact, power-armoured Sisters of Battle with Jump Packs. I'm not aiming to stick that on Centurion equivalents.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I repeat, no assaulting from reserve. And, Descent of Angels belong to the BA.

Descent of Angels is a name on the rule referred to in the 5e Marine books as Heroic Intervention, names are flexible. I'm not entirely sure about the problem with Assault from Deep Strike; the Blood Angels and the 5e Space Marines managed to do it for the entirety of 5e without breaking the game overmuch. You pay a premium for the unit and you're taking a tremendous risk on the Deep Strike scatter roll, it's not a reliable risk-free tactic. It gets an expensive unit to close combat effectively, it brings close combat back into relevance by requiring gunline armies to prepare for being charged instead of sitting around and being able to reliably count on shooting down CC armies before they get in.

The issue is not assaulting from deepstrike in itself. That might be balanced.

The issue is that, at this stage, almost nobody can do it. If not even VV or Raven Guard can, Centurion equivalents damn well shouldn't be able to.

The name Descent of Angels is already in use by the BA. In the BA codex, DoA lets you reroll scatter results.

If you read my initial post you might notice that my Seraphim are, in point of fact, power-armoured Sisters of Battle with Jump Packs. I'm not aiming to stick that on Centurion equivalents.

Perhaps, but that is not actually relevant.

If only outdated 5th and 4th ed codices are getting assault from deepstrike, and even they are getting phased out, I would not take that as the cue to give SoB what might soon become the only assault-from-deepstrike unit in the entirety of 40K. Their assault units are not that superior to everyone else's.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I repeat, no assaulting from reserve. And, Descent of Angels belong to the BA.

Descent of Angels is a name on the rule referred to in the 5e Marine books as Heroic Intervention, names are flexible. I'm not entirely sure about the problem with Assault from Deep Strike; the Blood Angels and the 5e Space Marines managed to do it for the entirety of 5e without breaking the game overmuch. You pay a premium for the unit and you're taking a tremendous risk on the Deep Strike scatter roll, it's not a reliable risk-free tactic. It gets an expensive unit to close combat effectively, it brings close combat back into relevance by requiring gunline armies to prepare for being charged instead of sitting around and being able to reliably count on shooting down CC armies before they get in.

The issue is not assaulting from deepstrike in itself. That might be balanced.

The issue is that, at this stage, almost nobody can do it. If not even VV or Raven Guard can, Centurion equivalents damn well shouldn't be able to.

The name Descent of Angels is already in use by the BA. In the BA codex, DoA lets you reroll scatter results.

If you read my initial post you might notice that my Seraphim are, in point of fact, power-armoured Sisters of Battle with Jump Packs. I'm not aiming to stick that on Centurion equivalents.

Perhaps, but that is not actually relevant.

If only outdated 5th and 4th ed codices are getting assault from deepstrike, and even they are getting phased out, I would not take that as the cue to give SoB what might soon become the only assault-from-deepstrike unit in the entirety of 40K. Their assault units are not that superior to everyone else's.

If it were up to me all Vanguard Veterans, Deathwing Terminators, Warp Talons, Stormboyz, and potentially some Slaaneshi Daemons and Grey Knight units would have this rule too and I'd stick the option for something like it on Retrofire Venoms (at a significant points revision in most cases, VV/Warp Talons/Stormboyz could probably get it free or nearly free but the rest need to have it as a "pay X points for thingy" upgrade), but since I'm only rewriting the Inquisition (as in the old Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus plus a new Ordo Xenos) books right now and not three Space Marine books, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, and Orks all at the same time (Necron assault units don't need the help, Tyranids would be harder to balance something like this on with all their nasty Monstrous Creatures, Eldar and Space Wolf assault units don't Deep Strike, and Guard/Tau don't have much in the way of assault units) I'm going to stick with talking about how to give Sisters of Battle a reliable way to get a choppy unit into close combat at this exact moment.

Haraldus makes a good point that assaulting from Deep Strike is not a thing in any 6th edition Codex -- and that if anyone gets it, Sisters shouldn't be first in line. My personal goal with my homebrewery is to make units that fit the direction GW is going, not rebel against it. (That's what the 100 Heresies thread is for).

The problem with making regular power-armoured Sisters into assault troops is that they're T:3 I:3 W:1 Sv:3+, which means they die. That's why Celestians are meh. Seraphim work largely because they jump in and flame things -- and if they do get into melee they can hit & run out of it. Sticking an Eviscerator on a Seraphim and throwing her into close combat gives you a 45-point model with a 45-second life expectancy.

But I do thing the Sisters deserve one over-the-top close combat unit that isn't an eggshell armed with a hammer. Furyou's idea of something that isn't a jump unit but instead uses some kind of grav chute/glider to carry more weight of armor is growing on me -- though I do think that if anyone in the Imperium deserves huge fiery-winged jump troops that look like angels, that is the Sisters' shtick.

Agreed. A 'tank' unit to serve as a tarpit (And can do decent damage as well) would be very nice, and since we are trying to design rules that would actually fit in without having to redesign most other codices...

Hell, I think there are too many glass cannons in this game. There's a reason nobody takes VV over ASM (Even if both are bad) since VV are more expensive and equally fragile, making their loss a bigger hit to your army.

Well, if you want a tank unit, there's always my Pahalim idea - Celestians with Aspiriate Cloaks and Storm Shields (giving them a 2+/3++), but with standard Celestian weapon options. Gives them average offense, but really hard defence.

Hmmm. How about Jump infantry with , not a 2H weapon, but a 1H power weapon and storm shields? Probably wouldn't hit as hard but much more survivable, and survivability is the big tujng we're struggling with here.

Plus the models would look pretty Gothic-awesome.

(Gothic as in High Middle Ages, not as in pretty pale people with dark eyeliner and dark clothes, though those can be nice too).

 SisterSydney wrote:
Hmmm. How about Jump infantry with , not a 2H weapon, but a 1H power weapon and storm shields? Probably wouldn't hit as hard but much more survivable, and survivability is the big tujng we're struggling with here.

Plus the models would look pretty Gothic-awesome.

(Gothic as in High Middle Ages, not as in pretty pale people with dark eyeliner and dark clothes, though those can be nice too).

I went for the 4++ Storm Shield/power sword or power lance build sort of off the aesthetic of MTG angels.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, if you want a tank unit, there's always my Pahalim idea - Celestians with Aspiriate Cloaks and Storm Shields (giving them a 2+/3++), but with standard Celestian weapon options. Gives them average offense, but really hard defence.

Making them effectively SoB's hammernators resiliencewise?

Seems excessive.

Well, I playtested them a couple of times, and in honesty they aren't worth what you have to make them cost - they have such weak offense compared to other 2+/3++ units that you're better off just taking more regular Battle Sisters, which is why I dropped the idea.

Instead of 2+, let's try a 45-point 35-point, 3+/3++, & power weapon build based on Seraphim.
Note that, as I've statted them up here, Principalities always have Shred -- which Seraphim have to roll an AOF for -- and Furious Charge -- which Celestians have to roll AOF for. They also have Celestian's 2 Attacks. They're sort of a souped-up Celestian-Seraphim hybrid that's armed and armoured like a Battle Conclave's Crusaders (not Terminators).
Conversely they lose "Hit & Run" because their task and training are to tar-pit. They lose "Angelic Visage" because the ability to re-roll your 6++ is redundant when you have a 3++ you're always going to use instead.


Principality Squad: 135 105 points
Principality: WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/3++
Superior: WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/3++

Force organization: Elite
Unit Type: Jump Infantry. Superior is Jump Infantry (character).
Unit Composition: 1 Principality Superior, 2 Principalities

Wargear:
Power Armour
Power weapon (lance or sword)
Bolt Pistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Jump Pack
Storm Shield

Special Rules:
Act of Faith*
Furious Charge
Shield of Faith
Shred

*Act of Faith: Leap of Faith
One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in the Movement Phase. If the Principalities use this Act while Deep Striking, they may reroll the Scatter Dice. If the Principalities use this Act during normal movement, they may use their jump packs in both the Movement Phase and the Assault Phase this turn.

Options:
May include up to seven additional Principalities: +45 35 points per model

Any model may replace her bolt pistol with
- a hand flamer: 5 points
- an inferno pistol: 15 points

Any model may replace her power weapon and storm shield with an Eviscerator: +5 points

The Principality Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 15 points
The Principality Superior may take melta bombs: 5 points


Design notes:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Or you could give them an Act of Faith granting FNP, Stubborn, or wound re-rolls to emphasize their toughness and tarpittery.

Edited Feb. 27 to add Eviscerator option, because chainsaws from the sky.
Edited April 28 (!) to reduce cost to 35 points as per Ovion's suggested pricing here.

Now that's dramatically overpriced instead
We just tried to point out that if you give unique abilities like no-mishap charges from deepstrike with awesome s8 ap1 weaponry on 2+ multi-wound models, you must price it accordingly. Now that u've taken away a charge from deepstrike, they're somewhat like regular vanguard vets. So why don't make a sob analogue of VV but with some nice stuff like act of faith and some special rules.

Act of faith that allows using of jump packs twice is a good idea. I think it's gona be more fun if you add a slight mishap chance - something like "If jump packs are used both for movement and assault - they can't use jump packs in their next turn" representing the possibility of overheating jump-packs. Sure, pricing will go down. I think 25 pts is gona be appropriate for seraphims with shred + furious charge + better charging abilities with some drawbacks + power weapons.
Also, it'd be nice to see possibilities for different weapon compositioning - that's usually better than identical gear for everyone. So, plain chainswords+bolt pistols stock. Ability to take stormshields for 10pts, Eviscerators, Flamers.
Thus u're paying for a unit that has nice offensive capabilities, mediocre durability, a bit overpriced but not too much taking into consideration what they can bring. Compare them to Eldar shining spears that are 25 pts also. Seraphims have better damage output but worse survivability and speed. Though, can more reliably charge if in range. So, a bit worse than shining spears overall which is nice for a homebrew unit that can be still used with some effect while not annoying anyone.

Good thoughts. More customizability is definitely good. Costing - costing is tricky.

What's driving the price up so high at this point is the storm shield plus power weapon combo -- something you'd have to address whether or not the power sword was standard or an upgrade option.

For comparison, Crusaders get storm shield plus power weapon -- normally 25 points -- and cost 15 points per model. So there's presumably some precedent for a discount.

Codex:Space Marines price storm shields at 5 points for models in Terminator armour, presumably discounted because they already have an 5+ invulnerable save; 15 points for HQ units, which of course pay a premium for everything; and 10 points for one-wound models like Vanguard veterans, which as you say are the closest equivalent, which is why I chose that figure. So I don't think there's much room for a discount on those.

Then power weapons cost 15 for Superiors. Those are 2A 1W models, but they can also challenge, which regular troops of course can't, so there is some wiggle room for a discount there.

Thoughts, all?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Good thoughts. More customizability is definitely good. Costing - costing is tricky.

What's driving the price up so high at this point is the storm shield plus power weapon combo -- something you'd have to address whether or not the power sword was standard or an upgrade option.

For comparison, Crusaders get storm shield plus power weapon -- normally 25 points -- and cost 15 points per model. So there's presumably some precedent for a discount.

Codex:Space Marines price storm shields at 5 points for models in Terminator armour, presumably discounted because they already have an 5+ invulnerable save; 15 points for HQ units, which of course pay a premium for everything; and 10 points for one-wound models like Vanguard veterans, which as you say are the closest equivalent, which is why I chose that figure. So I don't think there's much room for a discount on those.

Then power weapons cost 15 for Superiors. Those are 2A 1W models, but they can also challenge, which regular troops of course can't, so there is some wiggle room for a discount there.

Thoughts, all?

The reason for Crusader pricing is because Ovion's pricing system is very flawed. He's very smart, mind you, but he assumes that the value of stats and items like a Storm Shield can be a set value for each, while everything else on the model can be priced separately from it. This is unfortunately fallacy, as you just saw yourself. It's a better idea to try to compare it to the most similar units and go from there rather than trying to force unit creation into a pricing system with more holes than Swiss cheese.

For more examples, see how much Death Cult assassins pay for not one but two power weapons, on top of I6.

Another example is that upgrading WS7 to WS8 is almost redundant, while WS8 to WS9 is a massive advantage since the majority of melee units start hitting you on a 5+

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Good thoughts. More customizability is definitely good. Costing - costing is tricky.

What's driving the price up so high at this point is the storm shield plus power weapon combo -- something you'd have to address whether or not the power sword was standard or an upgrade option.

For comparison, Crusaders get storm shield plus power weapon -- normally 25 points -- and cost 15 points per model. So there's presumably some precedent for a discount.

Codex:Space Marines price storm shields at 5 points for models in Terminator armour, presumably discounted because they already have an 5+ invulnerable save; 15 points for HQ units, which of course pay a premium for everything; and 10 points for one-wound models like Vanguard veterans, which as you say are the closest equivalent, which is why I chose that figure. So I don't think there's much room for a discount on those.

Then power weapons cost 15 for Superiors. Those are 2A 1W models, but they can also challenge, which regular troops of course can't, so there is some wiggle room for a discount there.

Thoughts, all?

The reason for Crusader pricing is because Ovion's pricing system is very flawed. He's very smart, mind you, but he assumes that the value of stats and items like a Storm Shield can be a set value for each, while everything else on the model can be priced separately from it. This is unfortunately fallacy, as you just saw yourself. It's a better idea to try to compare it to the most similar units and go from there rather than trying to force unit creation into a pricing system with more holes than Swiss cheese.

For more examples, see how much Death Cult assassins pay for not one but two power weapons, on top of I6.

Another example is that upgrading WS7 to WS8 is almost redundant, while WS8 to WS9 is a massive advantage since the majority of melee units start hitting you on a 5+

Mind also that two power weapons on Death Cult Assassins have the exact same effect as one and a spare close combat weapon. A pricing system that treats everything separately is inherently flawed; there's no way a meltagun on a Space Marine is worth the same as a meltagun on a Guardsman; if you were to try writing up a pricing system you'd have to have everything up as percentage increases rather than flat costs at the very least.

Going back to the Principalities the trick is to find a unit they're similar to, figure out their cost, and figure out whether they're overpriced or not. Statwise and equipment-wise they're not unlike Vanguard Veterans with storm shields, jump packs, and Lightning Claws, who pay 47pts/model for the same statline plus one to S/T/I and have some slightly different special rules; the Vanguard Veterans get Heroic Intervention (which is so situational as to be almost useless), ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics (the best one for Vanguard Vets is probably Raven Guard), the Principalities get Shield of Faith, Furious Charge, and their Act, which is strictly worse than Combat Tactics. I'm estimating here but based on the fact that Vanguard Vets are horribly overpriced and the weaker stats/rules I'd call the Principalities around thirty points a model.

Quite true that Ovion's system is only a starting point -- but I needed a starting point! Now that we have a unit that people don't think is utterly insane, we can finesse the point cost a bit.

EDIT: Bah, nothing to see here... failed to note there was a page 2...

Oh, an additional thought: for +5 points, a Principality should be able to exchange her Power Weapon and Storm Shield for an Eviscerator, because FETH YEAH.

Also, I just took the original idea of a massive armored angel smashing down on the enemy's head and scaled it up to a superheavy (which was my original insane idea) based on the Knight: Click here for the horror that is the Knight Angelus.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Also, I just took the original idea of a massive armored angel smashing down on the enemy's head and scaled it up to a superheavy (which was my original insane idea) based on the Knight: Click here for the horror that is the Knight Angelus.

I really would rather not. Titans that move by any other means than walking are the sole province of the Eldar to my knowledge.

The Sororitas have so much of an angel vibe going on I figured we could make an exception.

Also it's a Knight, so it's a small Titan. It is wafer thin!

I really like the concepts for these (especially the idea of "grav-wings", although of course that is not necessarily new), and the models I am envisioning are just splendid. 40k really does need more of this sort of thing, more raw fury than just more guns. Titans are epic and everything, and the sight of an incomprehensibly large war machine taking up a good portion of the horizon despite being very far away as it lumbers towards the battlefield is terrifying (especially given that a Titan's weapons are probably already in range by that point), but it is of a different sort. To pick a word usage from Pacific Rim, Titans are like hurricanes. It's a totally different kind of feeling to something that, while smaller than a Titan, is still much larger than a human and very scary. A tyrannosaurus rex compared to a tidal wave. Smashing down from the heavens only makes it better.

That said, and although I don't particularly mind (the Imperium has room for basically any technology, because it can just be chalked up to "Golden Age humans had this thing and we have no idea how it works"), the jump jet thing would probably work better on something more Dreadnought-scale I decided to check the size of the Knight before I posted, and actually it'd work fine. I'm not so sure about using the exhaust from its thrusters as a weapon, though.

Anyway, back to the Principalities; love the idea. Nothing symbolises holy wrath like a huge warrior crashing into the midst of her enemies, taking no pause before setting upon them with holy blade. Don't give them power weapons. Power weapons suck. Would those Grey Knights with silly teleport packs be a good template to build on?

EDIT: Could always give them some FNP or a better invuln, if you don't want to give them 2+ or higher toughness.

Hmmm. I don't have Codex:Grey Knights -- maybe I can find it somewhere.

But are power weapons really that lousy on the tabletop?

No, they work fine...

Yeah, I understand power swords used to ignore all armour, but I think AP:3 ignoring power armour is still pretty good.: Nixing that 3+ save more than doubles your chance of a kill....

....unless you're throwing your squad of power-sword-wielding religious fanatics on jetpacks at something that doesn't have a good armour save, in which case you're doing it wrong.

Or at Terminators.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Or at Terminators.

This is one of the biggest problems with the game today; the linearity of Sv/AP means you get to sit around being utterly ineffective if the other guy decides to run Deathwing and you didn't build an army in advance with every single AP2 weapon you could find. The black and white useful/useless divide, the nerf to plain, ordinary power weapons, and the overwhelming presence of AP2 guns and melee weapons on the new expensive kits seems to be yet another transparent scheme to sell models.

 SisterSydney wrote:
squad of power-sword-wielding religious fanatics on jetpacks

Ah. I confess that I didn't read the rules in their entirety. I assumed, given the comparison to Assault Centurions, that they'd only come in very small squads. Power swords suck as a "I am a big scary and here is my big scary weapon", but they're decent when they have the advantage of a high number of attacks.

EDIT: Irrelevant, but I just had to share: Pigmarine. Wow.

Yeah, they're no longer based off Centurions, they're 45 ppm super-Seraphim. I really ought to change that thread title...

Aw, but it was so cool!