As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
kerikhaos wrote: oh I see so there is nothing extraordinary about their physique then? just the standard 5 - 6ft average human sizes then?
Yup. The only thing separating sisters from the rest of humanity is their faith (and lifelong indoctrination and training). The only thing that would make them taller then your average person is the occasional set of high-heeled suit of power armor
but surely there must of been some kind of modification done to them so to speak to help increase their durability at least. A normal human in battle as rough as it is out there wouldn't last that long with just their "oh natural" training. Is there any specific fluff that suggests any tampering with their genetics to make then at least slightly more advanced than standard humans. What would be the point of them then?
kerikhaos wrote: but surely there must of been some kind of modification done to them so to speak to help increase their durability at least. A normal human in battle as rough as it is out there wouldn't last that long with just their "oh natural" training. Is there any specific fluff that suggests any tampering with their genetics to make then at least slightly more advanced than standard humans. What would be the point of them then?
kerikhaos wrote: but surely there must of been some kind of modification done to them so to speak to help increase their durability at least. A normal human in battle as rough as it is out there wouldn't last that long with just their "oh natural" training. Is there any specific fluff that suggests any tampering with their genetics to make then at least slightly more advanced than standard humans. What would be the point of them then?
What do you mean, what's the point?
They aren't superhuman, that's the point. They are well trained, fanatical, and literally capable of miracles. Give them top notch weapons and armor, and they are good to go.
kerikhaos wrote: but surely there must of been some kind of modification done to them so to speak to help increase their durability at least. A normal human in battle as rough as it is out there wouldn't last that long with just their "oh natural" training. Is there any specific fluff that suggests any tampering with their genetics to make then at least slightly more advanced than standard humans. What would be the point of them then?
Not at I know of. They wear power armour (ceramite) like marines but according to the latest codex, they do not interface directly with the power armour unlike marines and thus do not benefit from increased strength etc.
Their statline is still human, like IG troopers. S3 and T3 with I3.
Medium of Death wrote: Surely there is a minimum height requirement? 5' 6"? Maybe the shorter ones get power heels.
No, in my headcanon there is totally a 5' 1" Canonesses out there, played by Reese Witherspoon, the top of her head barely visible over the piles of heretics and traitors she has slain.
"Canoness Reese! Canoness! Where are you?" "Over here, guys." "Where?" "Over -- oh dammit." [eviscerator sounds as she chops through the wall of corpses] "Ohhh, over there......"
Also, genetics wise, they are apparently selected for "genetic purity," but I presume that just means "no mutations ever," which means they might actually look more like modern human beings here on Earth than many people in the 41st Millennium.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: Also, Canoness Kristin Chenoweth. 4' 11", WS:5, W:3, gonna kill you now, m'kay?
Medium of Death wrote:Maybe the shorter ones get power heels.
This.
All sisters of battle are exactly 5 feet and 11 and 3/8th of an inch tall. Those who are naturally shorter get heels/platform shoes that will elevate their height to the Emperor's holy number, and those who are taller than that get their legs hacked off at the appropriate length.
As for genetic augmentation, nope. They're just regular people in power armor.
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Sisters are normal humans. Five foot something would be pretty standard.
Some may be taller, if they are from a particularly Amazonian Imperial World (Xenan, for example), but otherwise they fall within the range of human norms. They are, due to their physical regimen, likely to be stronger than other humans and of more-athletic builds than your typical Hive World female, but are not the slabs of gene-gineered muscle that Space Marines are.
Other than the selective breeding that goes on in certain circles of the Imperium, genetic enhancements and the like are not performed on the Sisters. They are not the ab-human freaks that Space Marines become. They have one heart, two lungs, they eat food normally, sleep normally (though they can, through endurance and willpower, go through periods of sleep deprivation, just like anyone) and all that sort of thing.
Made me want to break out my old Nintendo power magazines. Outstanding momentary trip to the 90s! Also I'm fairly certain the Missus has a pair of power heels... they're quite a nice dinner shoe.
I'm sure there's some sort of minimum size requirement on them so they'll be capable of wearing power armors and look suitably impressive on ceremonial duty. And they are the pinnacle of "normal" human fitness - I'd imagine they look much more like a swimmer than a ballet dancer.
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Just trying to save us from three to seven pages of irate Sisters players. There are rather more of us than you think, and we're rather... touchy about sexist remarks. I'm sure you understand.
Spetulhu wrote:I'm sure there's some sort of minimum size requirement on them so they'll be capable of wearing power armors and look suitably impressive on ceremonial duty. And they are the pinnacle of "normal" human fitness - I'd imagine they look much more like a swimmer than a ballet dancer.
The power armour takes care of the minimum size for impressiveness, to be honest. As long as a Progena is in the top percentile for athletics, weaponry and faith, she will be considered whatever her height.
Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Tell that to Abaddon...
Abaddon is hardly an average Space Marine... but yes, six and a half to seven feet tall is normal, not eight.
Jayden63 wrote:Its been a while since I checked but they range from anywhere between 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" depending on helmet and/or if standing on their toes.
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Sisters are normal humans. Five foot something would be pretty standard.
No, Astartes vary in height but typically swing around 7'9 to 8' feet, with the big and either old/mutated ones going all the way up to ten feet.
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Sisters are normal humans. Five foot something would be pretty standard.
No, Astartes vary in height but typically swing around 7'9 to 8' feet, with the big and either old/mutated ones going all the way up to ten feet.
Sounds about right. Primarchs are what, between 12-15 feet? I know it varies considerably from Primarch to Primarch... I personally would put Lorgar on the smaller end and Russ on the higher.
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Sisters are normal humans. Five foot something would be pretty standard.
No, Astartes vary in height but typically swing around 7'9 to 8' feet, with the big and either old/mutated ones going all the way up to ten feet.
Sounds about right. Primarchs are what, between 12-15 feet? I know it varies considerably from Primarch to Primarch... I personally would put Lorgar on the smaller end and Russ on the higher.
Alpharius/Omegon are the shortest, probably standing around eight to nine feet, so they can disguise themselves as a space marine or a rather large one, which isn't uncommon.Magnus meanwhile was the tallest, as IIRC he could buff his height all the way to thirty feet thanks to his pysker powers.
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Sisters are normal humans. Five foot something would be pretty standard.
No, Astartes vary in height but typically swing around 7'9 to 8' feet, with the big and either old/mutated ones going all the way up to ten feet.
And yet every article I've ever read from gw (from index astartes, codices etc) lists the 'average' height of a space marine as seven to seven and a half feet. And Jess Goodwin agrees with me.
http://podcast.games-workshop.com/mp3/DP4_JesGoodwin.mp3. 27mins in.
Hmm. Did some reading and it seems I'm slightly out. It's seven to seven and a half feet. So... Half right.Seven foot (my call) is for scouts and newly initiated and younger marines (less than a century of service). After a century, they've grown to about seven six. A handful grow taller.
http://www.philipsibbering.com/wh40k/10-01-marine-morphology.shtml
Your numbers are wrong bud. Ten feet is flat out ridiculous. Practically speaking, it's a hindrance.
Sounds about right. Primarchs are what, between 12-15 feet? I know it varies considerably from Primarch to Primarch... I personally would put Lorgar on the smaller end and Russ on the higher.
The only listed height for a primarch (iirc) is the lion - three meters. Alpharius would be smaller, Magnus would be a lot taller. This might have been detailed further since the Horus heresy novels and ia books.dont have any to hand though...
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
The true dark secret of the Imperium is that under all their armor, Astartes are all actually circus dwarfs. They sit on a little chair in the chest of the power armor and control the arms and legs through a series of levers and pulleys.
kerikhaos wrote: but surely there must of been some kind of modification done to them so to speak to help increase their durability at least. A normal human in battle as rough as it is out there wouldn't last that long with just their "oh natural" training. Is there any specific fluff that suggests any tampering with their genetics to make then at least slightly more advanced than standard humans. What would be the point of them then?
Nope, pure human. They are so fanatical, they tend to ignore minor injuries (and sometimes serious ones.)
The Imperial Guard aren't genetically modified either, and they do fine And unlike the sisters, their training isn't as intensive and they aren't as indoctrinated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: The true dark secret of the Imperium is that under all their armor, Astartes are all actually circus dwarfs. They sit on a little chair in the chest of the power armor and control the arms and legs through a series of levers and pulleys.
So that's where the squats went. It's a conspiracy
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Sisters are normal humans. Five foot something would be pretty standard.
No, Astartes vary in height but typically swing around 7'9 to 8' feet, with the big and either old/mutated ones going all the way up to ten feet.
And yet every article I've ever read from gw (from index astartes, codices etc) lists the 'average' height of a space marine as seven to seven and a half feet. And Jess Goodwin agrees with me.
http://podcast.games-workshop.com/mp3/DP4_JesGoodwin.mp3. 27mins in.
Hmm. Did some reading and it seems I'm slightly out. It's seven to seven and a half feet. So... Half right.Seven foot (my call) is for scouts and newly initiated and younger marines (less than a century of service). After a century, they've grown to about seven six. A handful grow taller.
http://www.philipsibbering.com/wh40k/10-01-marine-morphology.shtml
Your numbers are wrong bud. Ten feet is flat out ridiculous. Practically speaking, it's a hindrance.
Sounds about right. Primarchs are what, between 12-15 feet? I know it varies considerably from Primarch to Primarch... I personally would put Lorgar on the smaller end and Russ on the higher.
The only listed height for a primarch (iirc) is the lion - three meters. Alpharius would be smaller, Magnus would be a lot taller. This might have been detailed further since the Horus heresy novels and ia books.dont have any to hand though...
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Tell that to Abaddon...
Tell abaddon his top knot doesn't count.
Philip Sibbering is just fanfic/speculation. Well-made for sure, but it's nothing official.
It is awfully inconsistent overall and throwing individual sources won't really make a difference. But just below 8 feet to around 9 seems the most reasonable size. I'd expect, say, Guilliman, to be ~13 feet.
Some artwork shows Primarchs to be like 8 feet, others 15. (Not just Magnus, mind.)
kerikhaos wrote: Is there any specific fluff that suggests any tampering with their genetics to make then at least slightly more advanced than standard humans. What would be the point of them then?
Nah, they're quite effective without genetic modification. What gives the Sisters their edge, besides their excellent training and equipment, is their intense faith and the ways they apply it. They've got their Acts of Faith, wherein they're able to temporarily push themselves beyond what they're normally capable of (and they're already elite soldiers to begin with), and their Shield of Faith, which lets them push past even serious wounds and continue fighting.
milkboy wrote: they do not interface directly with the power armour unlike marines and thus do not benefit from increased strength etc.
They do seem to get a degree of enhanced strength from it. Note that Sisters can carry around heavy weapons like multi-meltas and heavy bolters, You don't see IG infantry doing that.
Though they do also seem to need what I've seen referred to as a brace to carry heavy weapons.
SisterSydney wrote: The true dark secret of the Imperium is that under all their armor, Astartes are all actually circus dwarfs. They sit on a little chair in the chest of the power armor and control the arms and legs through a series of levers and pulleys.
Report to your local Commissariat. Now.
Tzeentzch will not allow his devious plots to be revealed in such a way.
Not that Tzeentch is behind this, you know, it is the Emperor of course! Tzeentch is the enemy and is not at all secretly disguised as the Emperor.
milkboy wrote: they do not interface directly with the power armour unlike marines and thus do not benefit from increased strength etc.
They do seem to get a degree of enhanced strength from it. Note that Sisters can carry around heavy weapons like multi-meltas and heavy bolters, You don't see IG infantry doing that.
Though they do also seem to need what I've seen referred to as a brace to carry heavy weapons.
In days of old (RT), heavy weapons were defined by two traits, slow and heavy. Slow weapons couldn’t move and fire. Heavy was a weapon trait listed in inches that the gun slowed your movement down. You could equip weapons with suspensors, which mitigated/canceled the movement penally. The old imperial guard issued these, which is why you see RTIG minis shouldering lascannons and their support squads were organized like SMdev squads. When the concept of “heavy” weapons was dropped in 2nd, so too were the suspensors that let the IG shoulder weapons as large as they were. Sisters, being highly equipped, obviously kept theirs.
And any suit of PA is going to have some strength boosts in it. Kinda one of the defining points of “power” armor.
Thanks for all the feedback. Wow some mixed feeling ooh is subject but I guess it's safe to say that these hardcore females have become this force from sheer faith instead of sheer modis then good on them and good luck.
As for space marines it's stated in loads of places they were around 7.5 feet, terminators around 8.5 feet and primarchs were anything over 9. Magnus hit about 12 - 14 feet.
Big geezers non the less. Wouldn't wanna bump accidentally into them with your coffee
Just trying to save us from three to seven pages of irate Sisters players. There are rather more of us than you think, and we're rather... touchy about sexist remarks. I'm sure you understand.
..
I am a Sisters player. have been a long time. So I am aware that there are "rather more than most think" of us. This is oddly one of the most prolific and ongoing threads on DakkaDakka!
Taking oneself too seriously is a serious epidemic. And sexist isn't what the comment was. Sexist refers to a disparaging comment that is comparative in nature. And in no way could my comment be considered COMPARATIVE to men dor disparaging of that comparison.
So maybe a bit risque as humor goes, but not sexist by any definition I know of.
Exactly as tall as the average female in 40k universe, maybe a bit taller since the recruiters probably select for athleticism and height can go in proportion to strength.
Sort of. While every student in the Schola Progenium is expected to pass some fitness tests and the like, there are several Orders of the Sororitas that are not combat-focused (Hospitaler, Famulous, Dialogous and Pronatus, to name a few). So while the average Sororitas will be in better shape than your average Imperial or Hive World woman, this is by no means a guarantee (and some Feral World women might be in even better shape than most of the Sisters!) or proof that they will be taller than average (as you could have a below-average-height woman who has trained herself to be strong and tough as hell, for example. Think Vasquez from Aliens.
Point taken. Thanks for mentioning Vasquez by the way. That made me watch the "mistake you for a man" clip which finally inspired me to stop procrastinating and walk across the street to the gym like I'd been planning to for the last 90 minutes.
Because going to the gym is totally a natural human thing to do at 1845 on a Friday...
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Sisters are normal humans. Five foot something would be pretty standard.
No, Astartes vary in height but typically swing around 7'9 to 8' feet, with the big and either old/mutated ones going all the way up to ten feet.
And yet every article I've ever read from gw (from index astartes, codices etc) lists the 'average' height of a space marine as seven to seven and a half feet. And Jess Goodwin agrees with me.
http://podcast.games-workshop.com/mp3/DP4_JesGoodwin.mp3. 27mins in.
Hmm. Did some reading and it seems I'm slightly out. It's seven to seven and a half feet. So... Half right.Seven foot (my call) is for scouts and newly initiated and younger marines (less than a century of service). After a century, they've grown to about seven six. A handful grow taller.
http://www.philipsibbering.com/wh40k/10-01-marine-morphology.shtml
Your numbers are wrong bud. Ten feet is flat out ridiculous. Practically speaking, it's a hindrance.
Sounds about right. Primarchs are what, between 12-15 feet? I know it varies considerably from Primarch to Primarch... I personally would put Lorgar on the smaller end and Russ on the higher.
The only listed height for a primarch (iirc) is the lion - three meters. Alpharius would be smaller, Magnus would be a lot taller. This might have been detailed further since the Horus heresy novels and ia books.dont have any to hand though...
kerikhaos wrote: As the title suggests - how tall are they if space marines are around 8 feet tall. Plus do they have special characters and champions? How tall are they?
Space marines are seven feet tall, not eight.
Tell that to Abaddon...
Tell abaddon his top knot doesn't count.
Sibbering's work is simply atrocious and useless and massively conflicts with numerous published material on the appearance of Astartes outside of armor and the thickness of power armor. As for their height, the Black Library says hello. Astartes do indeed grow to ten feet if they're mutated or very, very old.
Ugh. I swear, I wanted to reduce my posts on these subjects as anything I'm writing here will be forgotten again next week, but I just .. can't .. resist.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Push past serious wounds? That thing is like a forcefield.
Headshotted by a Bastion-Breacher Shell? Np, Deus Ex Shieldoffaith will fix it.
Except you don't roll for headshots in the TT, and death by proximity is a thing with HE weapons. Keep the abstraction in mind.
For all intents and purposes, it is a lesser version of Feel No Pain, which Space Marines have access to as well.
Badablack wrote:All the artwork for Sisters has them in 6-inch stiletto power armor boots
How much SoB artwork have you truly seen?
I'll give you a hint:
Every single picture of a Battle Sister in the 2E Codex (excepting that one hideous Blanche Sister of Heels, who shalt never be shown again):
Spoiler:
Every single picture of a Battle Sister in the 3E Codex (excepting, once again, that one hideous Blanche Sister of Heels, who shalt never be shown again):
Spoiler:
And Blanche puts Heels on everything. Even Space Marine Primarchs.
The heels are a huge problem in SoBfan art, because for some reason fan artists prefer to stick impractically high-heeled shoes on the Battle Sisters instead of military boots like the miniatures and the vast majority of official artwork actually have.
Wyzilla wrote:Sibbering's work is simply atrocious and useless and massively conflicts with numerous published material on the appearance of Astartes outside of armor and the thickness of power armor. As for their height, the Black Library says hello. Astartes do indeed grow to ten feet if they're mutated or very, very old.
Games Workshop Space Marines are 7 feet on average, up to 7.5 feet in some cases. This is consistent throughout any and all Codex fluff, can be seen on this life size drawing made by Jes Goodwin (1 square = 1ft), and has been discussed in this GW Design Podcast.
Black Library Space Marines and Primarchs or Videogame Space Marines may, in some cases, exceed GW's numbers, because 40kdoes not have a true canon and thus allows for considerable artistic freedom in outsourced/licensed material, which should explain for all contradictions including this one. Sadly, a lot of people, including BL's freelance novel writers, just think that "bigger = better" and so attempt to one-up each other when it comes to Astartes Protagonists. In the podcast, Jes Goodwin actually jokes about them "getting bigger in each bloody book"!
Anyways, whether you prefer outsourced or licensed Space Marines to GW's own material, that would be every single fan's own decision. They should be aware that Marines who are ~10 feet high may have a problem with boarding Rhino APCs that were originally designed for ordinary human colonists, however, and may actually grow out of their own armour. Unless they'd wish to deviate from this fluff as well.
Personally, I'd say Sibbering's work seems pretty accurate, at least if you stick to Games Workshop's original material - including the thickness of Astartes power armour as described in Codex: Angels of Death and Codex: Witch Hunters.
If you just cherrypick your preferred outsourced material, of course your opinion may differ. At the end of the day, everyone just needs to be aware that no-one here can be "wrong" since all interpretations are equally valid.
Heh. Also, I want to say I actually like that Blanche cover, if only as a superb exemplar of the "I will stack up soldiers with no sense of perspective and bling out everything and have fire shooting everywhere for no reason" school of art that characterized 40K in its earlier days before GW got more coldly professional. (Not, um, that they transformed into business geniuses....).
Just as Vikings actually did wear horned helmets 0.01 % of the time, for special ceremonial events far from actual combat, and just as the British Army still wears bright red coats 0.01% of the time, when they're standing guard at a royal palace, I can imagine that some Sisters, somewhere, in some subculture, have armored boots with 6" heels they wear on special occasions when looking impressive is all that matters.
But next to the Canoness in ceremonial heels, or overwatching the Sisters standing guard in stilettos, there's almost going to be a squad of Sororitas wearing proper combat boots... and possibly smirks at the sight of their sisters wobbling about on miniature stilts.
Well, to be fair, if you have super-strength / various powers / high pain threshold it is theoretical possible to use specially crafted high heels in combat. Who knows, perhaps powered-armored heels are actually quite comfortable?
It is still more efficient to just have boots though.
You could make the same argument for superheroines as well. But really, should you need future magic technology or superpowers just to wear your shoes???? This seems like a needlessly complex solution to a problem that could easily be solved by an ancient technology known as "not putting a heel on."
Yes, but if you can kick a hole in a tank and run and maneuver in heels as well as normal footwear, why not have heels, if only to show off? It's all part of the spectacle really.
If I had bulletproof skin and the ability to benchpress skyscrapers, I would totally run around naked with a bright red codpiece. Why? Because I can. It would be more logical to wear just a normal kevlar vest, but it hardly makes a difference, so why not?
I'm pretty sure the logic for high heels is to advertise the super sexy femme fatale look on women. This alone has been the objective for females in high heels since it was attractive to man in the olden days. Now in terms of would you wear them in battle? It's pretty clear it would be more of an idiotic attempt to mesmerize the enemy? That if they were human to begin with the effect on alien well that's uncertain
Actually, the modern high-heeled shoe started as a male fashion, inspired by military footgear, specifically Persian cavalry boots (the heel helps keep your boot from slipping in the stirrup). It was supposed to look muy macho.
And pink was originally a male color, and the current female fashion of "I will wear tights so tight they display each individual buttock and pretend they are pants" is very similar to male fashion in High Medieval and Renaissance Europe.
So the whole "only females wear attention-grabbing garments that emphasize their sexuality" thing is pretty recent.
Lynata wrote: Well, by the same logic, why don't the Space Marines wear heels?
They have big feet, so it's a pain to make them. Also, the techmarines get really pissed off if someone scratches their floors. Those heels leave a dent, you know?
Could be they don't like heels. Just as some might not like the idea of running around naked wearing a bright red codpiece of unusual size, just because they are nigh-indestructible. In fact, most would be sensible and just wear their every day clothes. I call these people boring.
I could totally imagine a slaashi marine, however, looking in the mirror and thinking to himself "damn, I bet I would look good in heels! I wonder if I can get the hereteks to make some?"
SisterSydney wrote: Actually, the modern high-heeled shoe started as a male fashion, inspired by military footgear, specifically Persian cavalry boots (the heel helps keep your boot from slipping in the stirrup). It was supposed to look muy macho.
And pink was originally a male color, and the current female fashion of "I will wear tights so tight they display each individual buttock and pretend they are pants" is very similar to male fashion in High Medieval and Renaissance Europe.
So the whole "only females wear attention-grabbing garments that emphasize their sexuality" thing is pretty recent.
Apart from the pink thing, I did not know that. Cool.
Wyzilla wrote:Sibbering's work is simply atrocious and useless and massively conflicts with numerous published material on the appearance of Astartes outside of armor and the thickness of power armor. As for their height, the Black Library says hello. Astartes do indeed grow to ten feet if they're mutated or very, very old.
Games Workshop Space Marines are 7 feet on average, up to 7.5 feet in some cases. This is consistent throughout any and all Codex fluff, can be seen on this life size drawing made by Jes Goodwin (1 square = 1ft), and has been discussed in this GW Design Podcast.
Black Library Space Marines and Primarchs or Videogame Space Marines may, in some cases, exceed GW's numbers, because 40kdoes not have a true canon and thus allows for considerable artistic freedom in outsourced/licensed material, which should explain for all contradictions including this one. Sadly, a lot of people, including BL's freelance novel writers, just think that "bigger = better" and so attempt to one-up each other when it comes to Astartes Protagonists. In the podcast, Jes Goodwin actually jokes about them "getting bigger in each bloody book"!
Anyways, whether you prefer outsourced or licensed Space Marines to GW's own material, that would be every single fan's own decision. They should be aware that Marines who are ~10 feet high may have a problem with boarding Rhino APCs that were originally designed for ordinary human colonists, however, and may actually grow out of their own armour. Unless they'd wish to deviate from this fluff as well.
Personally, I'd say Sibbering's work seems pretty accurate, at least if you stick to Games Workshop's original material - including the thickness of Astartes power armour as described in Codex: Angels of Death and Codex: Witch Hunters.
If you just cherrypick your preferred outsourced material, of course your opinion may differ. At the end of the day, everyone just needs to be aware that no-one here can be "wrong" since all interpretations are equally valid.
Except that concerning the codices, especially of the sixth, and every single depiction of a space marine outside of armor, ever, Sibbering's work is completely invalidated, not to mention that PA is always described as being immensely thick, and even the old Rogue Trader art depicting a cross-section of power armor displayed it as being immensely thick and full of not only the armor itself, but also the systems contained in the armor. As for Goodwin, that's also completely up in the air as he fethed up his measurements and thus nobody knows his intentions with the pics. As for the extremely gigantic Astartes, all mentioning of them I've encountered has had them wearing special armor fitted for them, as there's no reason why a Chapter with the ability to forge or modify its armor cannot adjust it for the wearer.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:For all intents and purposes, it's the direct opposite of FnP.
FnP provides additional survivability against small arms fire and lesser melee attacks.
SoF only actually has any effect when you are hit by really nasty melee weapons or big guns, both of which often cancel out FnP.
My mistake! I actually forgot about the limitations of FNP - lack of experience on my part. However, I still fail to see the problem:
The normal save represents the armour protecting the target from being hit.
The invul save from Shield of Faith represents the target being hit and injured, but continuing to fight anyways.
"The perfervid, unquestioning nature of this faith is a potent weapon, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Adepta Sororitas to unprecedented feats of prowess. Sisters of Battle gripped with holy fervour banish fears from their minds, shrug off wounds and summon great strength to smite their foes." - WD #380
A miniature hit by an attack that would otherwise see her killed is essentially granted a "stay of death". The Sister could still collapse at the end of the battle, mortally wounded. But she kept fighting until all was over.
We do actually have tales of such heroic behaviour - some would say "grit" or "zeal" - from our real world history.
(for what it's worth, however, I did prefer the old Shield and Acts of Faith to what we currently got)
The Sisters are not the only ones displaying this level of grit, by the way. Yarrick can get up again after being slapped down by a nuke, too.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:And would being hit by a Bastion-Breacher shell in the belly and have SoF deflect it be more reasonable?
You also don't roll for belly hits in the tabletop. You roll for miniatures being threatened by the effects of an attack.
The level of abstraction in the tabletop allows for a lot of leeway in how you want to explain the outcomes of your rolls in a narrative way. Above, you see how I deal with the Shield of Faith. Space Marines being gunned down by a single lasgun attack are another popular example - I rationalise this with the Guardsman in question not having shot once but several times, or the Marine already being wounded from previous attacks. It fits better to the fluff and GW's own d100 game, which provides a more "granular" system for analysing the power of various weapons, or the resilience of various people and creatures.
Wyzilla wrote:Except that concerning the codices, especially of the sixth, and every single depiction of a space marine outside of armor, ever, Sibbering's work is completely invalidated, not to mention that PA is always described as being immensely thick, and even the old Rogue Trader art depicting a cross-section of power armor displayed it as being immensely thick and full of not only the armor itself, but also the systems contained in the armor.
As per Codex: Angels of Death, the thickest spot on Marine PA armour plating is 1 inch, so about 2 1/2 cm. Considerably more than RL feudal platemail, but less than what I usually see Marine players argue. The thing is that this thickness would not be equal everywhere, thus allowing the suit to feature a variety of bonus systems and adapt to its owner's physiology without turning into an absolutely weird shape.
What Sibbering did is, it seems, take the profile of Space Marine power armour and then attempt to fill it with a humanoid form. His Marines are comparatively bulky because Marine PA is bulky, and whilst in some places this could simply be attributed to the suit being fatter than necessary (likely to include aforementioned gadgets), there are some places where it needs to perfectly surround the inhabitant. These places are the joints. A Space Marine needs to move their arms, and if the shoulders on the armour are that far out, then his chest must be of a certain size to accomodate this.
It is essentially a reverse-engineering of what GW did, though it's probably safe to say that GW originally designed the armour without actually considering whether it could be worn in a sensible way, which might be the real problem here.
Wyzilla wrote:As for the extremely gigantic Astartes, all mentioning of them I've encountered has had them wearing special armor fitted for them, as there's no reason why a Chapter with the ability to forge or modify its armor cannot adjust it for the wearer.
I'd say that power armour is "too arcane" to be adjusted just like that (which would require taking it apart and assembling it anew) - they would have to swap entire components, and whilst this is possible, it kind of goes against the "heirloom" theme the Marines have going on with their stuff.
Wyzilla wrote:As for Goodwin, that's also completely up in the air as he fethed up his measurements and thus nobody knows his intentions with the pics.
Spoiler:
The scale starts at 2 instead of 1. Jes actually addresses this error in the podcast, thus clarifying his intentions - if you had clicked my links, you'd know this.
As for the rest of your links - it would help, and is considered common courtesy, if you added the sources to allow others to verify whatever it is you are claiming. Fortunately, my google-fu is fairly adept, and I have read most of GW's own material on Space Marines myself.
This is the only useful picture, actually. That being said, it is still somewhat problematic in that it is (a) obviously an in-universe piece with a potentially romanticised depiction, and (b) we don't actually know if it is supposed to show a Space Marine at the end of the implantation process, or a Neophyte at the start.
However, it still seems bulky enough that I personally would consider it a viable display.
I'm a bit surprised that you are argueing for "slim" Marines, by the way - most Marine fans here would do the opposite, making them even bulkier than Sibbering.
Wyzilla wrote:Also note that the comics that also depict Astartes outside of armor like Last Man Standing also do not depict them as being five feet thick.
Perhaps, but the comics are a product by the Black Library, and thus "suffer" from artistic licence.
Not that I don't enjoy the comics myself - it's just that they were written by different people, who at times may have different opinions. Exactly like with the novels.
A problem with this otherwise cool cutaway is that the author didn't quite consider how it would work if you put someone inside. Check out the joints and imagine putting someone inside that thing. This is an issue with most people just looking at either the armour, or the Marine, but not the combination ... the irony here being that I usually use this to argue against too bulky Marines, too, so now you're kind of coming at me with my own weapons.
Still, thanks for posting this one - I only have a rather dirty scan of it and can certainly use a "clean" version of it in my personal archives. *saves*
Oh, I agree about the whole narrative thing. It is salvageable, of course.
But I doubt it was GW's intention.
And to be fair, C:AoD is older than a large part of the playerbase. Many things from that era have been retconned or are just plain weird. My eyebrow tends to ascend higher and higher the older a source is.
And assembling armour out of many different parts is a common practice. See the relationship of MK6 and MK7 armour, where parts of both are not uncommonly worn simultaneously.
Anyways ... yes, that's what I was getting at, actually! The Marines don't mind mix-and-matching, because those individual parts mean a lot to them. It would suck if you couldn't wear that famous chestplate anymore that's been a Chapter relic ever since Captain Awesome of the 3rd Company carried it in the Battle of Epikus 3.000 years ago and which has been granted to you as a gift by the Chapter Master himself. You keep trying to put it on, but it's starting to chafe uncomfortably and your Battle-Brothers are starting to snicker behind your back at the little gaps between the plates you keep trying to patch with repair cement...
Automatically Appended Next Post: [horrified realization]Oh god that's why the models have so much flash and gaps and gaks, it's actually to make them MORE ACCURATE aaaaaah[/horrified realization]
ok slightly moving off topic but keeping with the height comparisons - we seem to of agreed somewhat the heights of the sisters of battle now what about the females in the Eldar / dark Eldar races? I know Eldar are taller than humans but are super thin but what are the heights of the women next to humans / space marines?
Doesn't hight depend mostly on the amount of oxygen and the gravitation of the planet you come from . The higher the gravitationthe smaller and stockier the SoB . SoBs living on a low gravitation , but high oxygen planet could be realy big specialy , if they had a high on iron diet.
Most such worlds, though, if any, have a Schola Progenium. In fact, most of the Imperium's worlds inhabited by the teeming millions-to-trillions seem to be fairly Earth-standard. The environmental dangers inherent to most Hive Worlds seem to be man-made, at least in the main.
So while you could have a young girl go from one of these low-G worlds to the Schola Progenium and later become a Sister, it is likely that her formative years spent on a standard-G planet will reduce the likelihood of her being abnormally tall and skinny, at least to the point that it would be unusually so for human physiology.
Makumba wrote: Doesn't hight depend mostly on the amount of oxygen and the gravitation of the planet you come from . The higher the gravitationthe smaller and stockier the SoB . SoBs living on a low gravitation , but high oxygen planet could be realy big specialy , if they had a high on iron diet.
I would normally agree but in these cases advanced species are modifying with genetic codes and connected are all sort of mutations which have various effects. So that plus the fact advanced races tend to never stick around too long on a planet for gravity to have a chance to effect it becomes the dominator factor that DNA mods seem to be a decisive factor with the look and feel of an advanced space race
BrotherHaraldus wrote:For all intents and purposes, it's the direct opposite of FnP.
FnP provides additional survivability against small arms fire and lesser melee attacks.
SoF only actually has any effect when you are hit by really nasty melee weapons or big guns, both of which often cancel out FnP.
My mistake! I actually forgot about the limitations of FNP - lack of experience on my part. However, I still fail to see the problem:
The normal save represents the armour protecting the target from being hit.
The invul save from Shield of Faith represents the target being hit and injured, but continuing to fight anyways.
"The perfervid, unquestioning nature of this faith is a potent weapon, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Adepta Sororitas to unprecedented feats of prowess. Sisters of Battle gripped with holy fervour banish fears from their minds, shrug off wounds and summon great strength to smite their foes." - WD #380
A miniature hit by an attack that would otherwise see her killed is essentially granted a "stay of death". The Sister could still collapse at the end of the battle, mortally wounded. But she kept fighting until all was over.
We do actually have tales of such heroic behaviour - some would say "grit" or "zeal" - from our real world history.
(for what it's worth, however, I did prefer the old Shield and Acts of Faith to what we currently got)
The Sisters are not the only ones displaying this level of grit, by the way. Yarrick can get up again after being slapped down by a nuke, too.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:And would being hit by a Bastion-Breacher shell in the belly and have SoF deflect it be more reasonable?
You also don't roll for belly hits in the tabletop. You roll for miniatures being threatened by the effects of an attack.
The level of abstraction in the tabletop allows for a lot of leeway in how you want to explain the outcomes of your rolls in a narrative way. Above, you see how I deal with the Shield of Faith. Space Marines being gunned down by a single lasgun attack are another popular example - I rationalise this with the Guardsman in question not having shot once but several times, or the Marine already being wounded from previous attacks. It fits better to the fluff and GW's own d100 game, which provides a more "granular" system for analysing the power of various weapons, or the resilience of various people and creatures.
Wyzilla wrote:Except that concerning the codices, especially of the sixth, and every single depiction of a space marine outside of armor, ever, Sibbering's work is completely invalidated, not to mention that PA is always described as being immensely thick, and even the old Rogue Trader art depicting a cross-section of power armor displayed it as being immensely thick and full of not only the armor itself, but also the systems contained in the armor.
As per Codex: Angels of Death, the thickest spot on Marine PA armour plating is 1 inch, so about 2 1/2 cm. Considerably more than RL feudal platemail, but less than what I usually see Marine players argue. The thing is that this thickness would not be equal everywhere, thus allowing the suit to feature a variety of bonus systems and adapt to its owner's physiology without turning into an absolutely weird shape.
What Sibbering did is, it seems, take the profile of Space Marine power armour and then attempt to fill it with a humanoid form. His Marines are comparatively bulky because Marine PA is bulky, and whilst in some places this could simply be attributed to the suit being fatter than necessary (likely to include aforementioned gadgets), there are some places where it needs to perfectly surround the inhabitant. These places are the joints. A Space Marine needs to move their arms, and if the shoulders on the armour are that far out, then his chest must be of a certain size to accomodate this.
It is essentially a reverse-engineering of what GW did, though it's probably safe to say that GW originally designed the armour without actually considering whether it could be worn in a sensible way, which might be the real problem here.
Wyzilla wrote:As for the extremely gigantic Astartes, all mentioning of them I've encountered has had them wearing special armor fitted for them, as there's no reason why a Chapter with the ability to forge or modify its armor cannot adjust it for the wearer.
I'd say that power armour is "too arcane" to be adjusted just like that (which would require taking it apart and assembling it anew) - they would have to swap entire components, and whilst this is possible, it kind of goes against the "heirloom" theme the Marines have going on with their stuff.
Wyzilla wrote:As for Goodwin, that's also completely up in the air as he fethed up his measurements and thus nobody knows his intentions with the pics.
Spoiler:
The scale starts at 2 instead of 1. Jes actually addresses this error in the podcast, thus clarifying his intentions - if you had clicked my links, you'd know this.
As for the rest of your links - it would help, and is considered common courtesy, if you added the sources to allow others to verify whatever it is you are claiming. Fortunately, my google-fu is fairly adept, and I have read most of GW's own material on Space Marines myself.
This is the only useful picture, actually. That being said, it is still somewhat problematic in that it is (a) obviously an in-universe piece with a potentially romanticised depiction, and (b) we don't actually know if it is supposed to show a Space Marine at the end of the implantation process, or a Neophyte at the start.
However, it still seems bulky enough that I personally would consider it a viable display.
I'm a bit surprised that you are argueing for "slim" Marines, by the way - most Marine fans here would do the opposite, making them even bulkier than Sibbering.
Wyzilla wrote:Also note that the comics that also depict Astartes outside of armor like Last Man Standing also do not depict them as being five feet thick.
Perhaps, but the comics are a product by the Black Library, and thus "suffer" from artistic licence.
Not that I don't enjoy the comics myself - it's just that they were written by different people, who at times may have different opinions. Exactly like with the novels.
A problem with this otherwise cool cutaway is that the author didn't quite consider how it would work if you put someone inside. Check out the joints and imagine putting someone inside that thing. This is an issue with most people just looking at either the armour, or the Marine, but not the combination ... the irony here being that I usually use this to argue against too bulky Marines, too, so now you're kind of coming at me with my own weapons.
Still, thanks for posting this one - I only have a rather dirty scan of it and can certainly use a "clean" version of it in my personal archives. *saves*
1) One inch of armor simply is the armor. This doesn't cover the internal mechanics of power, or the muscle undersuit. Although the inch thickness is also bull sh*t as well, considering pauldrons are known to be at least two inches thick, if not more. As for the problem with GW's lackeys scaling and Sibbering is that they scale the horrendous space marine models, or just GW's models, which for comparison-
Is horribly [url=http://itsacoyoteworkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/100_0243-450x280.jpg]scaled. As, if we simply bloat the size of a guardsmen, we end up with some strange-looking human with a bulbous head and oddly squat.
Although Sibbering also makes the hilarious mistake of thinking the armor is purely the armor layer, despite us knowing it's quite a bit thicker, especially coupled with how it's powered armor.
2) We know armor is specifically fitted for Astartes, and that the gigantic Astartes have armor specially made for them, as power armor can be made in the current date of 40K, even by the Chapter itself. Salamanders are the largest example.
3) The sources doesn't matter. What does matter is that GW takes it large green stamp of approval and publishes them in their own direct material and licensed material. This is a statement by the IP owner that they approve of the art and commission it actively.
4) The point isn't that they're comics. The point is that almost all fluff and material from the Black Library, licensed, produced, and commissioned by GW as owners of the IP, approve of it being published. The majority is always right, even when it's wrong.
5) What podcasts? Those links lead to 404 or the main GW site, nowhere else.
6) There's little difference between a Neophyte and an Astartes at the end of augmentation save the black carapace.
kerikhaos wrote: Ok how about we leave out the one Titan types then to simplify this better?
Still the 'nids.
I'm not sure about including the new TMCs, since I'm not familiar with them, but the Hive Tyrant is roughly twelve metres tall (fifteen for the 3e 'alien queen' version).
The Hive Tyrant is the only confirmed male Tyranid, although what exactly makes it male we're not sure.
How tall are Sanctionned Psykers when there's only five of them left in a squad
Well, Elysians... I'd say their civilians are probably taller than the average Imperial due to good diet (Elysia being a very rich planet), while their soldiers are shorter than the average Elysian (because they're airborne calvalry).
Bobthehero wrote: Fine then.
How tall are Stormtroopers
How tall are Elysians
How tall are Cadians
How tall are Catachans
How tall are Ogryns
How tall are Ratlings
How tall are Comissar
How tall are Valhallans
How tall are Steel Legion captains
How tall are Sanctionned Psykers when there's only five of them left in a squad
1: Universally 6'6".
2: Between 5'8" and 6'4"
3: 5'8" to 6'4"
4: 5'2" to 5'10" (Marbo)
5: 7' to 9'
6: 3' to 3'6"
7: With or without Hat?
8: With or without Bear Hat?
9: 5'2" to 5'8"
10: Depends on if any of them are Biomancers. Otherwise, 5'3" or 6'2", without variation.
Actually this begs the completely OT question, how tall are the tau fire caste. I always imagined them being just a few inches shorter than humans, like elves are portrayed (as in not the ones who are perfect, have completely white skin, and are always 6'6", but before that when they were best described as short magical humans with pointy ears. Continuing off that, how tall are the air caste (who are portrayed as much taller and skinnier because of the bear zero g that they live in).
Melissia wrote: Catachans are taller than average. They're comparable in build to small Orks or short Marines.
John Rambo is only 5'10" tall... because Sly Stallone is 5'10".
Thus, the Army of Rambos are all sized like Rambo (allowing for some height variation because he was a bit shorter in his porno days as the Italian Stallion).
Melissia wrote: Catachans are taller than average. They're comparable in build to small Orks or short Marines.
John Rambo is only 5'10" tall... because Sly Stallone is 5'10".
Thus, the Army of Rambos are all sized like Rambo (allowing for some height variation because he was a bit shorter in his porno days as the Italian Stallion).
Then I guess Marines and Orks are roughly equivalent to Stallone in height, too, since Catachans are described as not that much smaller
