Ok, I know it breaks the fluff. BUT if the next day, GW retconned them into existence, hypothetically speaking, I know it wouldn't happen in all likely-hood. But if they did, what would the issue be? Would there be a problem? I'm just trying to figure out why it brings more hate then all the other fluff-breaks out there.
Except they aren't at all in the fluff. In the slightest sense.
Oh please do expand then.
I am interested.
Well, just as a short thing, there's a lot more out there, but here are some of the basics:
Space Marines are, in effect, very much not human anymore. Between all of the gene-side and biological modification, they are made into superhuman fighting machines. Sisters, by contrast, are not modified in any of the ways Space Marines are, they are human.
In addition, the training and upbringing of Sisters and Marines varies greatly. Marines are inducted at roughly age 10-14 (apologies but I don't know the exact number) and go through graduated training where they get those biological goodies added to them over time. Sisters, by contrast, are inducted into the Schola as orphans and their entire lives are not only devoted to training, but also to acts of faith that go well beyond the extreme.
The Sisters have a level of zealous faith that puts Marines to shame. The quick example here is that there is only one instance of a Sister falling to Chaos (and that example was from a 3rd party card game), whereas Marine chapters, or groups from a Chapter, can fall pretty regularly.
This is a very, very short version, but I'm sure there will be more after me to help out further.
Except they aren't at all in the fluff. In the slightest sense.
Oh please do expand then.
I am interested.
Basically, space marines are beyond human in every sense of the word. Extensive genetic engineering, brainwashing, etc. Everything that makes a marine the pinacle warrior without equal.
Sisters of Battle don't have any of that. They have human sized power armour and a bolter. Even their armour is inferior to a marine's armour, as a marine is directly interfaced into his via the black carapace - giving him even greater strength.
And, technically, following the rules of genetics there could be female space marines. But they would look exactly the same as a male space marine. They are changed on a genetic level to the same DNA as their primarch, which is why most have a resemblance to their primarch, so if a girl underwent the proceedure they would come out looking like a man. Any and all female hormones would be suppressed and negated (as a marine is transformed generally waaayyyy before puberty) and you would never ever notice the difference between them.
I believe the GW explanation was that women couldn't handle the procedure due to the editing to genetic structure and insertion of male primarch genes.
Another reason people hate female marines is because it's just a desperate attempt to sexualise something blatantly never designed to be sexual. They are remorseless killing machines, a weapon of war and little else.
i think the problem is that to some male marines are special it signifies they aren't toy soldiers but war gaming miniatures much more respectable,
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits well that's a whole other kettle of fish their just toys and that's why people freak out or it could be a lot of gamers are in the closet and only want to play with manly men
while GW will never do it I wouldn't mind even retconing the sisters to have some augments.
Except they aren't at all in the fluff. In the slightest sense.
Oh please do expand then.
I am interested.
Well, just as a short thing, there's a lot more out there, but here are some of the basics:
Space Marines are, in effect, very much not human anymore. Between all of the gene-side and biological modification, they are made into superhuman fighting machines. Sisters, by contrast, are not modified in any of the ways Space Marines are, they are human.
In addition, the training and upbringing of Sisters and Marines varies greatly. Marines are inducted at roughly age 10-14 (apologies but I don't know the exact number) and go through graduated training where they get those biological goodies added to them over time. Sisters, by contrast, are inducted into the Schola as orphans and their entire lives are not only devoted to training, but also to acts of faith that go well beyond the extreme.
The Sisters have a level of zealous faith that puts Marines to shame. The quick example here is that there is only one instance of a Sister falling to Chaos (and that example was from a 3rd party card game), whereas Marine chapters, or groups from a Chapter, can fall pretty regularly.
This is a very, very short version, but I'm sure there will be more after me to help out further.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Lost Primarchs of the First Founding Space Marine Legions are the two Primarchs of the II and XI Legions who, for unknown reasons, were deliberately expunged from all known Imperial records and archives before the onset of the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium. Referred to as "the forgotten and the purged" it is known only that the missing Primarchs and their Legions are listed as having been "deleted from Imperial records." This formal censure and erasure from official records is known as an Edict of Obliteration, also called a Damnatio Memoriae, a High Gothic phrase meaning "condemnation of memory."
A female Space Marine would be a head swap. Whoo, hoo. They aren't needed, when the Sisters of Battle fill the same niche in a way that is so much more evocative of the setting.
It would be like having female Orks, just to say they exist. Totally superfluous.
I don't think female marines are needed. I am female myself yet I have no issues playing as an all-male army. It's part of their style, their design, their 'feel', and I am happy as it is.
And if you really want girls with bolters and PA, just go SoB.
I think Marines are far cooler though, but that's just me.
@curran
Some other differences I can think of are the fact that the Sisters are the army of the Ecclesiarchy, while Marine Chapters are (usually) mostly independent. Sisters also specialise more as soldiers, with them starting as standard Battle Sisters and then possibly specialising as something else if they're found to have the aptitude, whilst Marines try to be more general with their combat training. Sisters also uniformly believe in the Imperial Creed, but only some Marine Chapters do.
Notably, their aesthetics are also quite different.
Von Chogg wrote: Basically, space marines are beyond human in every sense of the word[....] brainwashing[...]Sisters of Battle don't have any of that.
Ohoho, the Sisters have that. Their whole angle is that they're all, in a sense, utterly brainwashed.
Von Chogg wrote: Even their armour is inferior to a marine's armour
Not wholly. It is just as protective as Marine Armour.
Von Chogg wrote: Another reason people hate female marines is because it's just a desperate attempt to sexualise something blatantly never designed to be sexual. They are remorseless killing machines, a weapon of war and little else.
Why are female characters attempts to sexualise something? Female characters needn't be characterised by sexuality.
I would grab a jumbo size popcorn and enjoy the ensuing chaos.
There would be so much rage not at the retcon itself but the audacity to allow women into their special little boys club. Political correctness gone wrong, stop sexing up my space marines, women can't fight as good as men because reasons!
Don't believe me? Look at this thread and any other thread about women in combat, fictional or otherwise. I recall in the making of film for Diablo 3 they talked about Leah and the issue of making Diablo's appearance more feminine. Apparently when the idea was initially thrown around in a meeting, the developers raged, stormed out, threw tantrums. Could you imagaine 40k fans behaving any better?
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits...
I don't imagine female Space Marine bits being more than just a few unique female heads with facial scars and short hair, maybe longer hair for Blood Angels or Space Wolves. Their bodies would be altered by the surgical parts of initiation so their features wouldn't be as noticeable if noticeable at all due to being further obscured in power armor.
AegisGrimm wrote: A female Space Marine would be a head swap. Whoo, hoo. They aren't needed, when the Sisters of Battle fill the same niche in a way that is so much more evocative of the setting.
It would be like having female Orks, just to say they exist. Totally superfluous.
This is pretty on point. Also, the majority of players who actually do convert up Space Marines to be women tend to be on the creepy side, sculpting giant breasts on the models and the like. I wish there was more representation of women in the game, but Sisters are a good alternative to Space Marines for that. They just need a model line that's up to snuff.
Just to clarify, the female marines in this hypothetical ret-con The armor might be a bit slimmer, but still very bulky, no boob-plate, no heels, helmeted you would barely be able to tell at all (Just like the dark angel in question). I have nothing against them, I am just trying to why people hate them so much..
Because many people dislike things that violate the established "canon" of the setting, and one of those things is that, for whatever reason, Space Marines are male (the "science" explanation behind it is terribly stupid, and wrong, but if we consider 40K to be an alternate reality, then maybe genes work differently there.). That's the most common reason that I see.
The less-common (and far worse) reason I see given is that "women don't belong in/cannot be allowed in/are not physically capable of combat occupations" whether this is SM, Guard, Arbites, whatever.
Now I will never get it out of my head that the BA went crazy when they could all psychically tell that their husbando Primarch had been slain in combat.
And I'm finding this thread to have some disturbing ideas.
The setting of 40k is supposed to show the darker aspects of humanity and put them in the spot light. The whole "purge the alien/mutant" thing is eugenics and racism yet it's a common thing in the setting. People will even justify that.
But having the setting also have a sexist aspect where they won't let women into the Marine club is what people have a problem with? Or suggesting that it's the fault of the gaming community for not wanting a such a retcon to the fluff for the seemingly sole purpose of trying to make the grimdark setting more PC? Or the game developers for establishing a setting where genocide on planet wide scale happens along side inequality in the work place? I don't know, it might just be me.
Savageconvoy wrote: And I'm finding this thread to have some disturbing ideas.
The setting of 40k is supposed to show the darker aspects of humanity and put them in the spot light. The whole "purge the alien/mutant" thing is eugenics and racism yet it's a common thing in the setting. People will even justify that.
But having the setting also have a sexist aspect where they won't let women into the Marine club is what people have a problem with? Or suggesting that it's the fault of the gaming community for not wanting a such a retcon to the fluff for the seemingly sole purpose of trying to make the grimdark setting more PC? Or the game developers for establishing a setting where genocide on planet wide scale happens along side inequality in the work place? I don't know, it might just be me.
If it were none because of sexism that would be one thing, and you would have a strong point. However the fluff reason for there being none is a a kinda-sciencey sounding thing. "Implants will not bond to the chromosomes". But that's besides the point, I want to know why the PLAYERS dislike them so much.
"If it were none because of sexism that would be one thing, and you would have a strong point. However the fluff reason for there being none is a a kinda-sciencey sounding thing. "Implants will not bond to the chromosomes". But that's besides the point, I want to know why the PLAYERS dislike them so much. "
Probably because giant cannon changes piss off people that are heavily invested into it.
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits...
I don't imagine female Space Marine bits being more than just a few unique female heads with facial scars and short hair, maybe longer hair for Blood Angels or Space Wolves. Their bodies would be altered by the surgical parts of initiation so their features wouldn't be as noticeable if noticeable at all due to being further obscured in power armor.
I honestly doubt there'd be any difference at all. As the muscles get bigger, the breasts get less and less noticeable, and when you add PA on top...
See here? This is a squad of female Space Marines, 100% perfectly modelled to what they would look like.
thepowerfulwill wrote: However the fluff reason for there being none is a a kinda-sciencey sounding thing. "Implants will not bond to the chromosomes". But that's besides the point, I want to know why the PLAYERS dislike them so much.
Well, for the game part I say it's not implausible that a genetic warlord like the Emperor decided that he'd make his successors male only. After all, he's from a time when it was all the rage - if your women were meant to stay at home with your keys (if your culture allowed them such stature) then they should do it even after the Great Sky Father picked your finest to have a chance at joining the Warriors in the Sky. And the resulting marines are mules who must protect the regular humans in their recruitment domain or go extinct....
What the players dislike, I can't say. Many in my group have played opposite-sex characters in RPG campaigns without ill efffects. Though not always at full effect either, as many failed ideas in the "remembrance" section shows.
I honestly like the first picture, though I hate the tactical midriff.
To me, I don't dislike the idea of female marines. If it was in the setting or had a really good idea for retconning it. But the setting isn't really set up that way. It's sexist that they either never figured out how to make female marines or just lie that they can't to keep them in the kitchenarium operating the ovenatum while they go off on grand adventures with the good ol' boys club.
I get that. In real life I'm against sexist behavior. But I'm also against whole sale genocide. I don't think it would be a good idea though to remove Exterminatus from the fluff though and changing the line to "Purge the alien if they continue to reject our calls for reasonable, civilized discourse".
I don't think it's that people hate women in the game...look how many female Eldar and dark Eldar there are...you also have male/female daemons...for no good reason...orks are exempt...sisters...are there women tau? No clue, tau bore me...are there women necrons? Most Tyranids could be considered women more so than men with the exception of tyrants...but that also comes with it's own set of sexism (harpy, crone, dominatrix) and I've seen so many female guardsmen across the US that they're as common as men to me.
Marines seem to be the only army devoid of women...besides blanks and such.
ductvader wrote: I don't think it's that people hate women in the game...look how many female Eldar and dark Eldar there are...you also have male/female daemons...for no good reason...orks are exempt...sisters...are there women tau? No clue, tau bore me...are there women necrons? Most Tyranids could be considered women more so than men with the exception of tyrants...but that also comes with it's own set of sexism (harpy, crone, dominatrix) and I've seen so many female guardsmen across the US that they're as common as men to me.
Marines seem to be the only army devoid of women...besides blanks and such.
Tau don't distinguish from genders, only rank their caste from what I remember. Kroot are impossible to distinguish male from female by humans and GW never listed physiological differences for Tau, so the models could be female or male for all we know.
And the only book that touches on female Tau that I'm aware of is the Shadowsun book, but I won't touch that. The synopsis makes it seem like her hardest decision she's ever had to make was.... Being the leader of the empire's army or... going home and making babies... Because she's a woman...
I for one would get myself some female marines (or male Sororitas [Frateritas?]) were they suddenly retconned into existance. It's not that I'm advocating for it, but it would be nothing game-breaking for me.
However, there's a certain faction where GW could introduce some gender variety, where badass girls with a gun and a talent for war would make a perfect fit without butchering the narrative in the process... I'm looking at you, Imperial Guard...
Savageconvoy wrote: Tau don't distinguish from genders, only rank their caste from what I remember. Kroot are impossible to distinguish male from female by humans and GW never listed physiological differences for Tau, so the models could be female or male for all we know.
And the only book that touches on female Tau that I'm aware of is the Shadowsun book, but I won't touch that. The synopsis makes it seem like her hardest decision she's ever had to make was.... Being the leader of the empire's army or... going home and making babies... Because she's a woman...
Agent_Tremolo wrote: I for one would get myself some female marines (or male Sororitas [Frateritas?]) were they suddenly retconned into existance. It's not that I'm advocating for it, but it would be nothing game-breaking for me.
However, there's a certain faction where GW could introduce some gender variety, where badass girls with a gun and a talent for war would make a perfect fit without butchering the narrative in the process... I'm looking at you, Imperial Guard...
Don't the do this all the time? Not to mention he fact that every third inquisitor is a woman.
dekinrie wrote: i think the problem is that to some male marines are special it signifies they aren't toy soldiers but war gaming miniatures much more respectable,
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits well that's a whole other kettle of fish their just toys and that's why people freak out or it could be a lot of gamers are in the closet and only want to play with manly men
while GW will never do it I wouldn't mind even retconing the sisters to have some augments[u].
or instead of retconing they could do the unthinkable and you know........ advance the plot line!!! ........ however that's asking the world of GW
@ductvader Sadly, female guard appear only in BL books, and the cool gothicpunk inquisitor woman was lost to the great finecasting of 2013. Right now the Inquisition/Guard ranges are quite skewed towards the male side of the gender spectrum. As in two models (DCAs) to everything else.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: @ductvader Sadly, female guard appear only in BL books, and the cool gothicpunk inquisitor woman was lost to the great finecasting of 2013. Right now the Inquisition/Guard ranges are quite skewed towards the male side of the gender spectrum. As in two models (DCAs) to everything else.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: @ductvader Sadly, female guard appear only in BL books, and the cool gothicpunk inquisitor woman was lost to the great finecasting of 2013. Right now the Inquisition/Guard ranges are quite skewed towards the male side of the gender spectrum. As in two models (DCAs) to everything else.
I'm not talking about GW models...I'm talking about fluff as well as third party models...or self sculpting...
It would be in the long run a very good thing for female models to be included in the mix, for Imperial Guard (or is that Astra Militarum?) as well as Space Marines. There's nothing to lose, and who knows maybe it might even increase the player base to include a greater proportion of female players. More players is never a bad thing.
So, post-embyronic genetic manipulation, psychics, magical demons, ultra futuristic guns that shoot a grand total of 30m, swords vs guns, demonic possession are all totally fine and make complete sense, but suddenly training a woman completely breaks logic? It's fantasy, and anything is possible. DNA cannot replicate itself for long enough to last thousands of years for a Space Marine to still be alive, so it's not like we're seriously following sense to begin with.
Why the sudden equation of female = sexualised? That's just sexualised society talking. A female model doesn't suddenly make the game sexualised, it means society teaches to makes all women sexualised.
An armoured female doesn't need a huge, unrealistic DD sized bust, besides. The armour on a space marine is huge, and all that exercise would leave little in the way of fat deposits.
It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.
Finally, the existence of the Sisters of Battle proves that there's not s strict sentiment against female models, having a couple of female heads per tactical squad wouldn't damage anything.
It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.
It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.
Why no children?
For conscripts!
You're an ageist I say!
Incidentally that is a really terrifying idea for really grimdark conscript fluff. Sending the 13 and 14 year old children off to fight the demons, because they're expendable... I can totally imagine the Imperium doing that.
Yeah. Whenever this topic comes up I immediately think of Battletech's female Elemental troopers and laugh when people think of this as a female Space Marine:
When really they should be thinking of something closer to this (with a shaved head instead):
Fluff-wise, I don't care either way because Space Marines aren't really my thing, but I would understand the outrage over changing such a major aspect of the Space Marine background. But, do I want a muscle-bound woman miniature like that Crusader Elemental? Hell yes! Might be a cool look for Sisters Retributor squad members.
dekinrie wrote: i think the problem is that to some male marines are special it signifies they aren't toy soldiers but war gaming miniatures much more respectable,
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits well that's a whole other kettle of fish their just toys and that's why people freak out or it could be a lot of gamers are in the closet and only want to play with manly men
while GW will never do it I wouldn't mind even retconing the sisters to have some augments.
Female Space Marines wouldn't have to be sexualised to work.
The problem with them is largely just that they go against the way people perceive the fluff. Retconning them in wouldn't immediately fix that... current players would still be against the idea due to it changing something that they see as a pivotal part of the fluff. It would take time for it to be accepted as the new black, in the same way that many players strongly resisted the change in Necrons from their original incarnation.
ductvader wrote: I don't think it's that people hate women in the game...look how many female Eldar and dark Eldar there are...you also have male/female daemons...for no good reason...orks are exempt...sisters...are there women tau? No clue, tau bore me...are there women necrons? Most Tyranids could be considered women more so than men with the exception of tyrants...but that also comes with it's own set of sexism (harpy, crone, dominatrix) and I've seen so many female guardsmen across the US that they're as common as men to me.
Marines seem to be the only army devoid of women...besides blanks and such.
It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.
Why no children?
For conscripts!
You're an ageist I say!
Incidentally that is a really terrifying idea for really grimdark conscript fluff. Sending the 13 and 14 year old children off to fight the demons, because they're expendable... I can totally imagine the Imperium doing that.
@Troike, Desubot. Yup, completely forgot about the Warrior Woman. Heck, now I think of it she looks as if someone had strapped Catherine Tate's head to the body of a buxom amazon. On a studded leather miniskirt, no less.
Ah, early-2000s GW. No wonder I had forgotten
No comments on Rocket Girl, for what matters...
@Jayden63. Well, they turned them into Cybermen.
@ductvader. Oh, but I hope there'd be some sort of official reckoning of gender diversity in the ranks of the Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarum) beyond tie-in literarure. Indies and homesculpts are fine, but nothing would end the debate better than some awesome female Guards with a big GW logo slapped all over the box.
@God In Action. My thoughts exactly. Actually, you gave me an idea, but I'd better start a new thread so as not to litter this one.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: @ductvader. Oh, but I hope there'd be some sort of official reckoning of gender diversity in the ranks of the Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarum) beyond tie-in literarure. Indies and homesculpts are fine, but nothing would end the debate better than some awesome female Guards with a big GW logo slapped all over the box.
But that would be Gw spending money...and catering to their fans...
thepowerfulwill wrote: Ok, I know it breaks the fluff. BUT if the next day, GW retconned them into existence, hypothetically speaking, I know it wouldn't happen in all likely-hood. But if they did, what would the issue be? Would there be a problem? I'm just trying to figure out why it brings more hate then all the other fluff-breaks out there.
There's no female Primarchs. Any female astartes that somehow survived the trials would die the agonizing death of gene-seed rejection. Plus it doesn't make any sense, as the absolute strongest males (IE, what you need to be to become a neophyte) are stronger than the strongest females.
Savageconvoy wrote: Tau don't distinguish from genders, only rank their caste from what I remember. Kroot are impossible to distinguish male from female by humans and GW never listed physiological differences for Tau, so the models could be female or male for all we know.
And the only book that touches on female Tau that I'm aware of is the Shadowsun book, but I won't touch that. The synopsis makes it seem like her hardest decision she's ever had to make was.... Being the leader of the empire's army or... going home and making babies... Because she's a woman...
Wow.
Just...
Wow.
Well, it's more a 'continuing the family name' thing - the problem is because shy of surrogate mothers or bottle incubators (which is totally a possibility now I think of it), O'shassera can't do both.
Now I think about it though, that's a totally BS argument, because Tau babies are raised in creches anyway. It would literally take no more time on her part than it does to gestate the little blue camel. So yeah, the book's premise is crap.
Then again, the book also has several scenes of O'shassera kicking arse in quite awesome ways, so it's worth a read.
That said, the only evidence for a physical difference is that O'shassera has a Y-shaped facial incision, while all other Tau have I-shaped incisions. It's my pet theory that it's a gender thing, although apparently that's debunked in the book. I like it, anyway, and my Darksun scratchbuild has a Y - because dammit, I like female characters, and I'm allowed to express my bias if I want to.
Hardly! The SoB have far better training, a different upbringing and a much more extreme mindset. The SoB can also perform Acts of Faith and have the Shield of Faith, abilities which are unique to them.
Uh, unless you were just talking purely in terms of height, in which case, okay.
Or augmentation but as mentioned, SoB are not Guardsmen in PA. Such words are heresy and require you to repent heathens! And by that I mean we will purge the impurity of your being.... with flames!
Yeah. Whenever this topic comes up I immediately think of Battletech's female Elemental troopers and laugh when people think of this as a female Space Marine:
(pics snipped)
Fluff-wise, I don't care either way because Space Marines aren't really my thing, but I would understand the outrage over changing such a major aspect of the Space Marine background. But, do I want a muscle-bound woman miniature like that Crusader Elemental? Hell yes! Might be a cool look for Sisters Retributor squad members.
Yes! Right from the moment I read the thread title I thought of female Elementals. But I've always loved Elementals in general.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if there were female Marines, or if someone had done a great job of converting their army as such even if not 'technically' correct. But to be fair, I am not very fanatical when it comes to canon in ANY universe, I really enjoy seeing people's own interpretations and find that interesting in itself.
By the Throne of Terra! This thread is full of the vilest heresies imaginable!
There are no females in the honoured Adeptus Astartes, nor can there ever be.
The God-Emperor, our undying Lord, has specifically decreed that all Astartes shall be male. Female Astartes are heresy and to immediately purged.
Bolters have been known to hit targets at ranges of over 2 kilometers when wielded by a SM and a marksman with a Lasgun can expect to hit a target at over 900m without much trouble.
AegisGrimm wrote: A female Space Marine would be a head swap. Whoo, hoo. They aren't needed, when the Sisters of Battle fill the same niche in a way that is so much more evocative of the setting.
It would be like having female Orks, just to say they exist. Totally superfluous.
This is pretty on point. Also, the majority of players who actually do convert up Space Marines to be women tend to be on the creepy side, sculpting giant breasts on the models and the like. I wish there was more representation of women in the game, but Sisters are a good alternative to Space Marines for that. They just need a model line that's up to snuff.
That is entirely what I meant by sexualising marines Because although female marines would, as I said, look like male marines, they vast majority of people that did it would be creepy with it
Space Marines were devised during a period of time when genderism was a massive thing and political correctness was barely even a note scribbled on a napkin.
Ignoring that, the warhammer 40k community is best known for opposing the very notion of change on every level so in adding females the community would go mental.
On other side notes current military procedures don't allow females into battlefront situations. They can be supportive though.
I don't fully understand why women make a fuss about this we're basically saying woman are too good and important to be wasted by the hundreds in battle. Yet they fight for equal rights? technically us guys should be fighting for our rights to not have to go to war but that's just the way humanity works.
Also you have to bare in mind the difference between males and females psychologically. Men are more than happy to do as they're told (within reason) and this can be seen in every relationship ever (where guys do as their wives tell them). Conversely trying to 'order' a woman to do anything or control her is grounds for her to do the exact opposite of whatever your yelling at her. This is likely not conducive to a war zone situation. Obviously i am stereotyping but you need to in order to analyze people.
I don't personally think that having females marines would be a problem nor do i think that in reality woman shouldn't be able to go to war if they so choose.
In general though female marines can't be sexualized in the same way without breaking the core aspect of marines.
Another thought is that i don't think your average warhammer 40k geek would be able to handle it. They'd totally flip out into nerd rage about the canon being broken. not that it actually has any bearing on anything.
Just my thoughts.
Edit:
On a separate note its lucky males exist at all in 40K. There are evolutionary theories that males will eventually 'die' out through the evolutionary process of removing defective genes. The Y chromosome is full of junk and not as healthy or strong as the X. Maybe what it really is is that males and females became one and humanity now replicates through some alternative means such as asexuality.
The lack of models for them? Because something like that deserves models, and we all know that GW loves to make Marine models even when it's absolutely unnecessary and silly, like shoulderpads.
I was going to add a female Space Marine to my army because at the time my fluff was different than the fluff I am working currently on, she was basically going to be my representation of Joan of Arc and be the first company captain I was thinking chapter master but thought that was too far, the model would of been a terminator with a sister of battle head. But than again one of the main reasons I made that character was to cause the hardcore cannon guys head to explode, I do not like people telling me what I can and can not do with the models that I purchased and I also like making my own back stories and my own characters (I blame D&D for that).
I do not have problem with female Space Marines or Guard but I do have a problem when people make them out to be pin up babes mainly because it is silly. But there is a possibility that the Emperor could have had at least one daughter remember that the records of the lost Primachs are gone and no one knew who they were so it is possible that one of them could of been Female because even though they say the Emperor had twenty sons no one knows for sure.
See here? This is a squad of female Space Marines, 100% perfectly modelled to what they would look like.
Totally true.
Vash108 wrote:With all the gene therapy and conditioning wouldn't they look like any other marine? Except the genitals.
Probably not even that. If GW retconned female Space Marines into existence (they were reasonable while at it) there would not really be much a change. The official excuse is that the whole process of augmentation is designed to work with male hormones profile. But considering that the process is supposed to start before puberty (and the amount of sci-fi superscience we have already) it would be very easy to say that the first step is to remove hormone producing inner genitals and replace them with a testosterone producing blob. Considering that the body of a SM will be basically defined by muscle and bone growth (controlled by the SM organs) and that the hormonal changes would prevent secondary sexual characters from developing (which means no boobs), in the end there would be no difference in what sex the aspirant had before the augmentation. After the whole thing he would be neither real male nor real female, just a Space Marine.
Thrust me, I'm biologist.
See here? This is a squad of female Space Marines, 100% perfectly modelled to what they would look like.
Totally true.
Probably not even that. If GW retconned female Space Marines into existence (they were reasonable while at it) there would not really be much a change. The official excuse is that the whole process of augmentation is designed to work with male hormones profile. But considering that the process is supposed to start before puberty (and the amount of sci-fi superscience we have already) it would be very easy to say that the first step is to remove hormone producing inner genitals and replace them with a testosterone producing blob. Considering that the body of a SM will be basically defined by muscle and bone growth (controlled by the SM organs) and that the hormonal changes would prevent secondary sexual characters from developing (which means no boobs), in the end there would be no difference in what sex the aspirant had before the augmentation. After the whole thing he would be neither real male nor real female, just a Space Marine.
Thrust me, I'm biologist.
Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
Boniface wrote: Space Marines were devised during a period of time when genderism was a massive thing and political correctness was barely even a note scribbled on a napkin.
Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
btw why would ever political correctness influence a work of fantsy/ sf military fiction set in year 40000? Not only would that be pathetic but also overzelous to 11 and exactly the same thing that totalitarian regimes do to books.
Boniface wrote: I don't fully understand why women make a fuss about this we're basically saying woman are too good and important to be wasted by the hundreds in battle. Yet they fight for equal rights? technically us guys should be fighting for our rights to not have to go to war but that's just the way humanity works.
It's equal rights as long as its about managment, seats in government etc, army too ofc as long as its about pilots. Mining or fighting with your own bowel in hand that's for those inherently brutal dirty men peasants.
Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
This image disagrees with you.
Marines start between 10 and 14 years of age. A common Marine recruitment style is to round up all the likely lads of the right age and put them in a pit together, then order them to fight to the death under the watchful gaze of a Chaplain, who may or may not have a Librarian assisting him.
The survivors are then recruited as Marines.
Of course, the Space Wolves do things differently.
Can we please not have yet another ignorant anti-feminist rant here?
Jegus H Tapdancing Christ do we not need another one of those.
Apple fox wrote: I have wanted to do a chaosie female space marine army
Please don't make them scantily clad like ninety percent of the female CSMs I've seen.
Even the freaking khornate ones were, which was a total wtf moment for me. I can see slaanesh doing that, but khorne? Khorne loves his spiky and bloody armor too much!
The way I see its is.... whether male or female they all die for the Emperor the same, in a pool of blood.
As for female Marines, it doesn't matter to me. In Power Armor you wouldn't be able to tell of its female or not. It's the Creepy guys who model on the power boobs on his marine figures that I worry about.
Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
This image disagrees with you.
Marines start between 10 and 14 years of age. A common Marine recruitment style is to round up all the likely lads of the right age and put them in a pit together, then order them to fight to the death under the watchful gaze of a Chaplain, who may or may not have a Librarian assisting him.
The survivors are then recruited as Marines.
Of course, the Space Wolves do things differently.
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
40k cannot reinforce the real life murder of billions because there is no such thing. It is purely fictional. But sexism is a real thing that can be and is reinforced by the tropes of pop culture.
Melissia wrote: Can we please not have yet another ignorant anti-feminist rant here?
Jegus H Tapdancing Christ do we not need another one of those.
Apple fox wrote: I have wanted to do a chaosie female space marine army
Please don't make them scantily clad like ninety percent of the female CSMs I've seen.
Even the freaking khornate ones were, which was a total wtf moment for me. I can see slaanesh doing that, but khorne? Khorne loves his spiky and bloody armor too much!
I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
The best way to model FSM is ... to do nothing. Take a man or a woman and put them through that body horror, they end up looking exactly the same.
The real reason there are no female SM is because GW is accessing the trope of crusading monks. And there are no female monks, archetypically. Just like there are no male nuns.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
40k cannot reinforce the real life murder of billions because there is no such thing. It is purely fictional. But sexism is a real thing that can be and is reinforced by the tropes of pop culture.
Messrs. Stalin, Mao, Pol, and Hitler lacked only the scale, not the motivation or opportunity.
Wyzilla wrote:
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
Right. Name me some Space Marines (apart from Wolves, who I have already admitted do things differently) who were recruited above the age of twelve, please - and tell me a reference for how old they were recruited.
Apple fox wrote: I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
That's much, MUCH better head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
Defenatly, not short of skimpy armor in this hobby :p. Would probably ad much more than take away hehe.
Where are you going to add armour to the Marines?! The only partially exposed parts are the insides of the elbows, the backs of the knees... oh, and I guess their 'soft midriffs'.
Wyzilla wrote:
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
Right. Name me some Space Marines (apart from Wolves, who I have already admitted do things differently) who were recruited above the age of twelve, please - and tell me a reference for how old they were recruited.
Apple fox wrote: I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
That's much, MUCH better head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
Defenatly, not short of skimpy armor in this hobby :p. Would probably ad much more than take away hehe.
Where are you going to add armour to the Marines?! The only partially exposed parts are the insides of the elbows, the backs of the knees... oh, and I guess their 'soft midriffs'.
I mean to add stuff over the armor, rather than take armor away.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
40k cannot reinforce the real life murder of billions because there is no such thing. It is purely fictional. But sexism is a real thing that can be and is reinforced by the tropes of pop culture.
Messrs. Stalin, Mao, Pol, and Hitler lacked only the scale, not the motivation or opportunity.
I'm not sure how any of those dudes is relevant to the real life conditions of 90s Britain or the contemporary circumstances of GW's current markets. I mean, no one can say "40k sends a dangerous message that the ongoing galactic apocalypse is okay." To clarify, this is because the galactic apocalypse is fictional. Sexism, by contrast, is an ongoing reality everywhere GW products are sold.
Wyzilla wrote:
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
Right. Name me some Space Marines (apart from Wolves, who I have already admitted do things differently) who were recruited above the age of twelve, please - and tell me a reference for how old they were recruited.
Apple fox wrote: I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
That's much, MUCH better head swaps are probably really the best way to do FSMs anyway.
Defenatly, not short of skimpy armor in this hobby :p. Would probably ad much more than take away hehe.
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
Where are you going to add armour to the Marines?! The only partially exposed parts are the insides of the elbows, the backs of the knees... oh, and I guess their 'soft midriffs'.
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
How the hell do you even format a quote that badly?!
*cough* Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Who is Tankred? I haven't read every single novel, you know. I need a little more context than a single generic (if oddly spelled) name.
"Initiation" happens at the end of the alteration process, when the Marine joins the scout company - IE, when he's had all his enhancements except the Black Carapace and is about sixteen years old, which is the 'cusp of adulthood'.
I hate to break it to you, but 'adolescence' starts at eight for females and ten for males, roughly speaking. Adolescent cannot be confused with 'teenage'. Youth is another ambiguous term - a youth can be anything from an older child to a young adult (so anywhere between six and twenty years of age).
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
How the hell do you even format a quote that badly?!
*cough* Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Who is Tankred? I haven't read every single novel, you know. I need a little more context than a single generic (if oddly spelled) name.
"Initiation" happens at the end of the alteration process, when the Marine joins the scout company - IE, when he's had all his enhancements except the Black Carapace and is about sixteen years old, which is the 'cusp of adulthood'.
I hate to break it to you, but 'adolescence' starts at eight for females and ten for males, roughly speaking. Adolescent cannot be confused with 'teenage'. Youth is another ambiguous term - a youth can be anything from an older child to a young adult (so anywhere between six and twenty years of age).
You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
And Tankred's a former Black Templar Champion, turned Dreadnought, from Damnation Crusade.
You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
And Tankred's a former Black Templar Champion, turned Dreadnought, from Damnation Crusade.
I'm from Britain. So, with the exception of Sandy Mitchell, are the majority of Black Library authors. Hence why most Black Library novels refer to 'colours' and twelve-year-old 'adolescents'.
Are we really going to go into the Fallacy of Intent in another40k fluff thread?
dekinrie wrote: i think the problem is that to some male marines are special it signifies they aren't toy soldiers but war gaming miniatures much more respectable,
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits well that's a whole other kettle of fish their just toys and that's why people freak out or it could be a lot of gamers are in the closet and only want to play with manly men
while GW will never do it I wouldn't mind even retconing the sisters to have some augments.
Female Space Marines wouldn't have to be sexualised to work.
The problem with them is largely just that they go against the way people perceive the fluff. Retconning them in wouldn't immediately fix that... current players would still be against the idea due to it changing something that they see as a pivotal part of the fluff. It would take time for it to be accepted as the new black, in the same way that many players strongly resisted the change in Necrons from their original incarnation.
I don't understand why they don't simply retcon SoB into having augmentations or having a better ability to interface with and utilize their power armor.
The Blood Angels, who suffer from the 'curse'. Think about it...
The irony of the above quote is that when the old Witch Hunters codex was "updated" to the garbage WD Mini-Dex, I simply switched over to the Blood Angels codex to run my Sisters army.
PA and Bolters? Check!
Jump Infantry with Melta Pistols and Hand Flamers? Check!
Fast Flamer Razorbacks? Check!
The current BA codex is, frankly, Sisters of Battle writ as Space Marines. They even have their very own St. Celestine!
As to actual Female Space Marines, I still a old RT era "Gabs" Female Adventurer in Power Armor with Boltgun and Sword. She looks like a butt ugly female Space Marine Librarian (psyker sigil on her paldron).
Wyzilla wrote: You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
.
To your comment on adolsecent being interchangeable with late teenage years in America, um...no it isn't. Adolescent is a mid aged child, not a late teen. Adolescence starts around 8-9 and through about 12 where the "teen" label gets applied at 13.
Of course this is neither here nor there with respect to the original topic, but your "American" position on age and the labels applied and when they are applied, does not jibe with my own "American" position on the subject.
Melissia wrote: jeffersonian: That would make Sisters less cool.
How so? Their fluff remained the same, I just got a functional army for awhile. Unless you meant Gabs. Fortunately, Gabs is not nor ever was a Sister of Battle, although she may end up as an Inquisitor, although I've been saying that for years.
Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
By the Throne of Terra! This thread is full of the vilest heresies imaginable!
There are no females in the honoured Adeptus Astartes, nor can there ever be.
The God-Emperor, our undying Lord, has specifically decreed that all Astartes shall be male. Female Astartes are heresy and to immediately purged.
*Asks innocently*
Didn't said God-Emperor also decree that there would be no worship of gods, and rationality would be the guide.....not superstition?
Tankred was recruited as an young adult male. Also, children simply can't become Astrartes, as the initiation for many Chapters includes the killing of Salamanders, deathmatches are extremely common (and those we've seen have gigantic beasts thrown at them and participants already look like squat astartes), killing wolves, blood sports, etc. That and they're always reffered to as youths or adolescents in the Black Library, and never as children.
How the hell do you even format a quote that badly?!
*cough* Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Who is Tankred? I haven't read every single novel, you know. I need a little more context than a single generic (if oddly spelled) name.
"Initiation" happens at the end of the alteration process, when the Marine joins the scout company - IE, when he's had all his enhancements except the Black Carapace and is about sixteen years old, which is the 'cusp of adulthood'.
I hate to break it to you, but 'adolescence' starts at eight for females and ten for males, roughly speaking. Adolescent cannot be confused with 'teenage'. Youth is another ambiguous term - a youth can be anything from an older child to a young adult (so anywhere between six and twenty years of age).
You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
And Tankred's a former Black Templar Champion, turned Dreadnought, from Damnation Crusade.
Ah, no it isn't. An "adolescent" is any child who has begun puberty but has not yet reached the age of majority.
So... roughly 10 to 17, but its most-frequent colloquial use is to refer to "tweeners" (that is age 11-12) and young teens (13-15).
Most importantly, though, the British use of it is the most important, as both GW and BL are British concerns, and most, if not all, of the BL authors are also British.
Melissia wrote: Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
I don't understand why they don't simply retcon SoB into having augmentations or having a better ability to interface with and utilize their power armor.
Just ending it now before there is anymore confusion.
And yes, I agree. Decking Sisters out in augments would reduce some of their appeal. They are meant to use their faith to be en par with Space Marines. That is what makes them unique, and giving them enhancements would undermine that. They would then just be female space marines, and we already have enough variants of those.
Melissia wrote: Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
Now, now, Melissia, you may have forgotten, but I started playing Sisters when they first came out in 2nd Ed, and my entire Sister army was a 2nd Ed army played with 3rd Ed rules until that thrice damned WD Mini-Dex forced my hand. And while I no longer field my Sisters as BAngels, that is because I stopped fielding them all together. The new Digi-Dex is still garbage, in my opinion, and I await either a real codex in the distant future or a valid reason to use the Digi-Dex.
As to Female Space Marines, I see no issues with it. Game play remains the same, no mechanics change, only style and theme are impacted.
Melissia wrote:Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
Why would their augmentations need to be identical to Space Marines? Why would augmentations make them less cool? How is the use of Faith any different from the use of augments? Both are simply buffs that allow the individual to perform superhuman feats in combat.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Melissia wrote: Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
I don't understand why they don't simply retcon SoB into having augmentations or having a better ability to interface with and utilize their power armor.
Just ending it now before there is anymore confusion.
And yes, I agree. Decking Sisters out in augments would reduce some of their appeal. They are meant to use their faith to be en par with Space Marines. That is what makes them unique, and giving them enhancements would undermine that. They would then just be female space marines, and we already have enough variants of those.
Just my two cents, but I think in terms of physical abilities SoB should remain inferior to Space Marines, but stronger and faster than anything a non-augmented human can achieve. SoB should be on par with Space Marines in terms of fighting skill. Faith based abilities should allow them surpass or equal Space Marines temporarily. Something akin to a jolt of adrenaline, but without the post adrenaline fatigue. I don't understand the argument against them being augmented. Why not take away their power armor and bolters as well? Give them nothing more than the most basic of the IG kit. Won't that make them even more impressive? Hell, why not reduce them to loincloths and sharpened sticks? That Canoness' Faith is astounding! She just drove a pointy twig through 3" of reinforced Terminator Armor!!! Emperor be praised!
trexmeyer wrote: Why would their augmentations need to be identical to Space Marines? Why would augmentations make them less cool? How is the use of Faith any different from the use of augments?
Even if different in the specific sense, any Sister-specific augment would be the same as a SM one generally speaking. The important distinction here is external/internal. Augments, of whatever kind, are external. Faith is internal. What makes a SM powerful is added. What makes a SoB powerful in inherent.
trexmeyer wrote: Why not take away their power armor and bolters as well? Give them nothing more than the most basic of the IG kit.
Sure. But it would also deaden the intended contrast between SM and SoB. The message is, both have PA and both have bolters but only one has augmentation and only the other has this bizarre transcendent faith.
Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
This image disagrees with you.
Marines start between 10 and 14 years of age. A common Marine recruitment style is to round up all the likely lads of the right age and put them in a pit together, then order them to fight to the death under the watchful gaze of a Chaplain, who may or may not have a Librarian assisting him.
The survivors are then recruited as Marines.
Of course, the Space Wolves do things differently.
Actually, recruitment methods are vastly different for every Space Marine chapter, not just the Space Wolves. The generalised making a new space marine process as I understand it is: 1. A chapter recruits a world's best young men as aspirants. 2. During their time as aspirants, they have to prove themselves in tests and challenges of increasing difficulty. 3. The aspirants who prove themselves worthy become neophytes and receive their first implants. 4. After the implantation process is complete the neophyte is assigned to a scout squad. 5. After a scout has proven himself in combat he becomes a full battle-brother of the chapter. As implantation only begins after an aspirant has proven himself worthy by completing the chapter's tests, and most chapters have tests that would be impossible to complete for children, it makes sense that implantations for most chapters would only begin in the late teens at earliest. In any case, Wyzilla was still mostly right, as puberty already begins at 11.
On topic: I still think female space marines are a horrible idea. If you want girls in your army, just run with one of the armies that have female models or pray that GW updates the SoB kits.
Marines recruit children and turn them into monsters.
You aren't the heroes.
You aren't the good guys.
You're just the best example of the monstrous lengths the Imperium has to go to just to survive.
Couldn't agree more. There are no truly good factions in 40k. Even the Tau are rulers and conquerers even though they consider their methods somewhat benign. Each race does what is good for themselves and that is all. I think the best one can hope for in the 40k is being most honest with oneself, and in that regard only the orks really fulfill that ideal. They just want to fight. They don't do it to make the galaxy safer for ork kind, or to advance the ork race. They do it because THEY LIKE IT and that is good enough for them.
I'm not so sure about female marines but I do think the whole 40k universe misses out because GW largely ignore females in general.
I know that's a little bit of a generalization but I think some of the most interesting characters in BL have been females. The general in the new scars book or the sharp shooter in the last chancers I remember as particularly striking.
GW focus on the boys and their war stories which is great but really good stories only come about when you get a complete society represented and that includes the ladies.
Furyou Miko wrote: You're just the best example of the monstrous lengths the Imperium has to go to just to survive.
It's worse than that. SM don't exist because things are so bad but rather things are so bad, at least in very large part, because SM exist.
Oh freaking ZING
Completely true. The Horus Heresy happened because Marines existed and were given too much political and military power.
Hmm. Yep, I can see that. Don't normally look at it from that angle. Since the Horus Heresy books came out, I find it hard to think of anything 40k related as having happened before around M.36 - everything else is 30k.
Wyzilla wrote: You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
.
To your comment on adolsecent being interchangeable with late teenage years in America, um...no it isn't. Adolescent is a mid aged child, not a late teen. Adolescence starts around 8-9 and through about 12 where the "teen" label gets applied at 13.
Of course this is neither here nor there with respect to the original topic, but your "American" position on age and the labels applied and when they are applied, does not jibe with my own "American" position on the subject.
Skriker
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
Adolescent is generally, in my experience, used to refer to anyone who is 12-15 years old or so, but that's a colloquial use. The actual definition of the word, though, means anyone who is undergoing the transition from child to adult... so, it could be anyone roughly 8 to 17, but is noted has having begun puberty.
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
You seem to be the only one here who follows that definition...
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
You seem to be the only one here who follows that definition...
American consists of fifty major cultures, which even then can be further divided up. It may just be a Californian thing/Northern Cali thing.
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
You seem to be the only one here who follows that definition...
American consists of fifty major cultures, which even then can be further divided up. It may just be a Californian thing/Northern Cali thing.
So, does this mean you're willing to admit that your interpretation isn't the one intended by the author?
AegisGrimm wrote: That's it. I demand male Sisters of Battle. It's unfair that they are all women.
They have existed in the lore. They were called the Frateris Templar.
They were also wiped out during the Age of Apostasy and are now illegal, but there's nothing stopping you from playing the descendants of the survivors, a heretic sect, a chaos sect, et cetera.
I agree with Wyzilla in that I have never heard any American anywhere use the word adolescent to refer to someone younger than, say, 12. That said, I haven't talked to all the Americans.
Manchu wrote: I agree with Wyzilla in that I have never heard any American anywhere use the word adolescent to refer to someone younger than, say, 12. That said, I haven't talked to all the Americans.
I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Wyzilla wrote: Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
Sorry mate, but "the hell" where I live in the US doesn't really matter all that matters is that it apparently is not where the hell you live in the states. In my neck of the woods you can use youth and adolescent interchangably, but primarily for kids ranging from about 9-12. While adolesence itself runs from the start of puberty to full physical maturity, there are no set age ranges on that, and in my neck of the woods "adolescents" are in the 9-12 year old range, with teen being the more common term once 13, the first "teen" number, is hit in age. Anyone under the age of 18 is a child, or a youth, though those from about 15-18 are more likely called teen or youth so as to not offend their growing identities and sensibilities to not be refered to as children anymore. Of course YMMV as, even at 46, in some circles my mother still introduces me as here baby, since I am the youngest of her children. You made an all encompassing "This is how it is in America" post and I made one that made it clear that "No it isn't." As with anything else such designations can be as regional as the difference between grinders, hoagies and subs.
Of course your apparent offense in this response is even more amusing when you add in the fact that your first post was trying to apply "american" definitions of such things to books and rules written by people in the UK and not by Americans. I guess you could get away with that if refering to anything Jeremy Vetock has written since he moved across the pond as he was born here in the states. He was the store manager in the Philly GW when it first opened up a good 25 or so years ago.
Melissia wrote: I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Texans aren't Americans. That's like saying Gauls are Romans. From the usage I've heard, seventeen is not too old for the word adolescent. Then again, I don't think this debate has much actual relevance to the topic or even the particular tangent concerning SM recruitment.
Manchu wrote: I agree with Wyzilla in that I have never heard any American anywhere use the word adolescent to refer to someone younger than, say, 12. That said, I haven't talked to all the Americans.
I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Melissia wrote: I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
AegisGrimm wrote: That's it. I demand male Sisters of Battle. It's unfair that they are all women.
They have existed in the lore. They were called the Frateris Templar.
They were also wiped out during the Age of Apostasy and are now illegal, but there's nothing stopping you from playing the descendants of the survivors, a heretic sect, a chaos sect, et cetera.
I was ignoring the poor grammar and semantics that you used and tried to approach from what you seemed to mean; Manchu was not so patient. Get over it.
Well, there was this part about how it was supposed to be facetiously reflective of how strange it is for people to demand so vehemently to have female "Battle Brothers", and how ....ah, nevermind. I must just be stupid.
AegisGrimm wrote: Well, there was this part about how it was supposed to be reflective of how strange it is for people to demand so vehemently to have female "Battle Brothers", and how ....ah, nevermind.
It's not at all strange, especially given the male-dominated nature of our society. Brotherhood, as in "the bonds of", is commonly used without regards to gender in quite a few organizations; masculine is assumed by default in the English language, with "he" being used to refer to someone whom you don't know the gender of.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's stupid. But it's still true.
Furthermore, given that Space Marines take up an absurdly high amount of focus in the lore, it's only natural that some fans wish that Space Marines were more inclusive of minorities, instead of being a bunch of screaming old bald white guys. There is no serious, honest complaints about Sisters of Battle made in the same fashion because Sisters receive so little focus to begin with, that many people don't even have exposure to the idea of their existence.
It's not strange at all once you think about it. Personally, I don't care, I find non-augmented humans to be cooler than Space Marines anyway, so it's not my thing. But I don't look down on the people that DO care.
I don't have any problem with female marines. All the people who say, well the fluff blah blah blah need to realize the fluff really boils down to "a wizard did it" and that GW can (and does) change it all the time, no problem. It's not a stone tablet ex cathedra.
I would prefer that SM remain male because they are an analogue of warrior monks but either way I'm not fussed, as they say.
The bee in my bonnet is there are not female Guardsmen. That's just equal parts weird and lame. Cadia, who has a synonymous recruitment rate and birth rate, has no women depicted in styrene? Come on. The closest analogy to Cadia in modern times is Israel, and they've been recruiting women for almost 60 years.
Ouze wrote: The bee in my bonnet is there are not female Guardsmen. That's just equal parts weird and lame. Cadia, who has a synonymous recruitment rate and birth rate, has no women depicted in styrene? Come on. The closest analogy to Cadia in modern times is Israel, and they've been recruiting women for almost 60 years.
Ouze wrote: The bee in my bonnet is there are not female Guardsmen. That's just equal parts weird and lame. Cadia, who has a synonymous recruitment rate and birth rate, has no women depicted in styrene? Come on. The closest analogy to Cadia in modern times is Israel, and they've been recruiting women for almost 60 years.
Yeah, that bugs me more than the FSM thing.
I think this bugs everyone. Well, who cares, anyway.
Ouze wrote: The bee in my bonnet is there are not female Guardsmen. That's just equal parts weird and lame. Cadia, who has a synonymous recruitment rate and birth rate, has no women depicted in styrene? Come on. The closest analogy to Cadia in modern times is Israel, and they've been recruiting women for almost 60 years.
Yeah, that bugs me more than the FSM thing.
Big time. Even if women are physically weaker and slower, you'd think they still be able to fill vital support roles and command posts.
Why are you so dead set against me personally? Sheesh, it was a snarky comment based on how these threads constantly show up and consist of the exact same content. Nothing more, nothing less. I get to have an opinion, too.
it's only natural that some fans wish that Space Marines were more inclusive of minorities, instead of being a bunch of screaming old bald white guys.
Most idiotic one dimensional take on the entirety of the Space Marine lore and fiction.
P.s. If you'v got a problem with someone then ignore them or take it into private messages, no one wants to get drawn into a flamewar between two people.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
40k cannot reinforce the real life murder of billions because there is no such thing. It is purely fictional. But sexism is a real thing that can be and is reinforced by the tropes of pop culture.
Here's a thing, executing one person is still worse than sexism. The latter is bad and boorish but still.
Let's say a small exteminatus though, 100 000 people. Relevant?
Bloody murder is a real thing too and can reinforced by the tropes of pop culture. We should remove violence from 40k.
Melissia wrote: Can we please not have yet another ignorant anti-feminist rant here?
Jegus H Tapdancing Christ do we not need another one of those.
Can we not have posters writing derogatory remarks about religion here?
I bet you require high standards and respect of people when it comes to woman equality issues, yet you have none for others it seems. No different than me throwing around sexist one liners to embollish my speech.
btw I'm not really anti feminist in a strickt sense, I don't need feminism personaly because I respect women and treat them equaly. There are a lot of issues than need adressing like insane numbers of date rapes in USA for example but the absurdities some feminist activists spout reached sky high and it's often no longer useful. Some here are friends with people who voted for girls having the right to star at porn films when they reach 15 of age, just because their fight with traditional family is more important than stoping the most women degrading industry in history.
Anyway what I have issue here is political correctness when it comes to works of fiction, especialy ones that have green fungus orks inside. It's killing the variety of art, leave those issues to political speeches and newspapers. Seriously every show I see lately contains obligatory gay, woman having a hard time and black/ Jewish/ gypsy/ whatever people fighting prejudice, it's tiring. I don't want 40k to become a gothic variation of Mass Effect.
Melissia wrote: And obviously I believe it was ill-thought snark.
Its funny how everywhere I encounter your posts you are acting passive agressive to another poster and yet holding your victim up to a higher standard. It shows in most arguments you make as well.
Melissia, I have understood by now that you possess a very strong dislike for Astartes-related factions in Warhammer 40.000.
But please, can you keep this a little more controlled?
There's adding a 'They are not one of my favourite factions, but...' or something like that. That won't come off as passive-agressive.
But overstereotyping and ridiculing the faction and, occasionally, its fans (Indeed, I have seen more than one unpleasant comment about 'fanboys') won't make anyone happy.
No offense, I'd just rather that this discussion be continued in friendship rather than a forum cold war.
26FireGuy0369 wrote: I know we are all really busy hurting each others feelings and trying to be clever.
But would anyone actually refuse to play with/against someone who had Female Space Marines?
I wouldnt say no but boy I think they would be butt ugly. Huge hulking troll like women in armour, and I thought the normal Space marines where bad... shudder
Ouze wrote: I don't have any problem with female marines. All the people who say, well the fluff blah blah blah need to realize the fluff really boils down to "a wizard did it" and that GW can (and does) change it all the time, no problem. It's not a stone tablet ex cathedra.
I would prefer that SM remain male because they are an analogue of warrior monks but either way I'm not fussed, as they say.
The bee in my bonnet is there are not female Guardsmen. That's just equal parts weird and lame. Cadia, who has a synonymous recruitment rate and birth rate, has no women depicted in styrene? Come on. The closest analogy to Cadia in modern times is Israel, and they've been recruiting women for almost 60 years.
This, this so much. GW really needs to add female guardsmen for the next edition, just start making two female models with some slight differences (slimmer arms, maybe a female sergeant without a helmet with her hair tightly knotted up), because there really really really needs to be female guardsmen. In the fluff they're ripe with female guardsmen (Gaunt's Ghosts comes to mind) and make sense for most Guard regiments besides Kriegsmen. There's no reason why women can't be guardsmen, and in the fluff there isn't either, and it's ridiculous players have to go to third parties or use greenstuff to make them.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Bloody murder is a real thing too and can reinforced by the tropes of pop culture. We should remove violence from 40k.
Well, I was hoping you'd get the point without me needing to go too far down the rabbit hole.
We can analyze any fictional text from at least two perspectives: (1) as if the setting is an organic-historical world and (2) as if the setting is context for text. When you talk about the "fact" of exterminatus in the 40k setting, you are talking about (1), which has no relevance to the real world. When we talk about how 40k authors portray females, we are talking about (2), which is necessarily relevant to real life because we are talking about the actual authors and publishers rather than some fictional world.
Now, I'd say you have a point about 40k reinforcing ultra-violent culture ... except that culture doesn't exist where 40k sells (despite what various intellectually bankrupt politicians and media sources will shriek at you). By contrast, there are strong cultures of sexism where GW sells and indeed the subcultures clustered around GW are stereotypically at least a bit more misogynistic than the ambient ideological temperature of their wider neighborhoods.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I don't want 40k to become a gothic variation of Mass Effect.
Don't worry, the current management hate nothing more than expanding their business. As long as those old white guys are in charge, 40k will continue to be pretty much exclusively targeted to young(er) white guys.
What always bothered me about "no female space marines" is it didn't come across as something that made sense in the setting, it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story." (or perhaps more charitably: "our target demo thinks girls are gross; let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story") But then, maybe that is me giving the rest of the setting too much credit and it's all similarly poorly thought-out.
ETA: I don't mean that as an attack on the setting. I mean I was a lot younger when I learned about it all for the first time and may not have been the most discerning literary critic.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: What always bothered me about "no female space marines" is it didn't come across as something that made sense in the setting, it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story." (or perhaps more charitably: "our target demo thinks girls are gross; let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story") But then, maybe that is me giving the rest of the setting too much credit and it's all similarly poorly thought-out.
I think it's more "our target demographic for Space Marines wants to play with action figures of big burly men or slender attractive females rather than big burly females".
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: What always bothered me about "no female space marines" is it didn't come across as something that made sense in the setting, it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story." (or perhaps more charitably: "our target demo thinks girls are gross; let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story") But then, maybe that is me giving the rest of the setting too much credit and it's all similarly poorly thought-out.
Eh, it's so-so. From a logistical view, there's no reason for them to even attempt to recruit females, as while the average female may be stronger than many males, the strongest female still falls short of the strongest male, and for astartes, they want the strongest males. With a pool of trillions of citizens to draw from, they don't even need to use female recruits, let alone use the whole 'male Primarch geneseed is incompatible with females' weird bit.
What they should do is add something additional to Storm Troopers for the Guard, watered down augments that any member of either gender can use to create their own super soldiers. Something like more compact dreadnought armor whatever those space-marines-inside-a-space-marine things are called.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story.".
Are you ready for a male poster to step in with WAT THAT IS NOT TRUE AT ALL MY GF LUVS SM GTFO!!!111! In all seriousness, that's a great point and I'm glad you distinguished between what GW may have intended and what it communicates to a young woman. I think SoB were in some way an attempt to reach out to women, which kind of strikes its own sour notes, but you can see female fans have sort of built up their own images of Sisters and 40k generally so I guess it was at least kind of a meet you halfway moment, whereas with SM it's like the "no gurlz allowed" sign on the treehouse that is functionally invisible to the boys.
Manchu wrote: . I think SoB were in some way an attempt to reach out to women, which kind of strikes its own sour notes, but you can see female fans have sort of built up their own images of Sisters and 40k generally so I guess it was at least kind of a meet you halfway moment, whereas with SM it's like the "no gurlz allowed" sign on the treehouse that is functionally invisible to the boys.
Interestingly enough, I've found that the few women I've come across who actively played went more for Tyranids, Eldar or Space Wolves than for SoB.
Wyzilla wrote: Eh, it's so-so. From a logistical view, there's no reason for them to even attempt to recruit females, as while the average female may be stronger than many males, the strongest female still falls short of the strongest male, and for astartes, they want the strongest males. With a pool of trillions of citizens to draw from, they don't even need to use female recruits, let alone use the whole 'male Primarch geneseed is incompatible with females' weird bit.
I feel that I need to point out that you and many others are making these kind of points from your real life experience. 40k is a fictional setting where FTL is achieved by travelling through a literal demon infested hell, a marine's standard weapon fires minature grenades and a daemonic chaos god was born from space elves having one giant orgy.
This is all accepted without argument but the idea of a woman in 40k not being better than a man but merely being equal in a combat role is just too far fetched?
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story.".
Are you ready for a male poster to step in with WAT THAT IS NOT TRUE AT ALL MY GF LUVS SM GTFO!!!111! In all seriousness, that's a great point and I'm glad you distinguished between what GW may have intended and what it communicates to a young woman. I think SoB were in some way an attempt to reach out to women, which kind of strikes its own sour notes, but you can see female fans have sort of built up their own images of Sisters and 40k generally so I guess it was at least kind of a meet you halfway moment, whereas with SM it's like the "no gurlz allowed" sign on the treehouse that is functionally invisible to the boys.
The hilarious thing is that every woman I know who plays W40K is either Nids or Chaos, not SOB.
Wyzilla wrote: Eh, it's so-so. From a logistical view, there's no reason for them to even attempt to recruit females, as while the average female may be stronger than many males, the strongest female still falls short of the strongest male, and for astartes, they want the strongest males. With a pool of trillions of citizens to draw from, they don't even need to use female recruits, let alone use the whole 'male Primarch geneseed is incompatible with females' weird bit.
I feel that I need to point out that you and many others are making these kind of points from your real life experience. 40k is a fictional setting where FTL is achieved by travelling through a literal demon infested hell, a marine's standard weapon fires minature grenades and a daemonic chaos god was born from space elves having one giant orgy.
This is all accepted without argument but the idea of a woman in 40k not being better than a man but merely being equal in a combat role is just too far fetched?
If they're a baseline human? Yes. Humans seem to be just as normal as they are in the modern day, barring psykers or mutants. If they were a special offshoot of humanity, like the Chiss in Star Wars instead of a major off-shoot like Ogryn it might be normal, but base humans? Tad weird.
Maybe females from Nocturne might make a good choice, considering IIRC that all humans from Nocturne are stronger than most due to the gravity.
So in 40 000 years bar from a few minor mutations in a minority of humans, humanity as a whole will be physically no different to what it is today. That to me seems more weird.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: What always bothered me about "no female space marines" is it didn't come across as something that made sense in the setting, it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story." (or perhaps more charitably: "our target demo thinks girls are gross; let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story") But then, maybe that is me giving the rest of the setting too much credit and it's all similarly poorly thought-out.
I think it's more "our target demographic for Space Marines wants to play with action figures of big burly men or slender attractive females rather than big burly females".
People have mentioned the burly women thing but it's not like you can even see how burly they are on the miniatures, since they're all in this huge chunky power armour. What would make more sense to me would be "we'll write room for them in the fluff and then never bother making a model for them."
Wyzilla wrote: Eh, it's so-so. From a logistical view, there's no reason for them to even attempt to recruit females, as while the average female may be stronger than many males, the strongest female still falls short of the strongest male, and for astartes, they want the strongest males. With a pool of trillions of citizens to draw from, they don't even need to use female recruits, let alone use the whole 'male Primarch geneseed is incompatible with females' weird bit.
What they should do is add something additional to Storm Troopers for the Guard, watered down augments that any member of either gender can use to create their own super soldiers. Something like more compact dreadnought armor whatever those space-marines-inside-a-space-marine things are called.
I am at a disadvantage here due to lack of current knowledge of Space Marine lore, but when you're surgically and genetically altering people the idea that you have to recruit for physical capability is dubious at best.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story.".
Are you ready for a male poster to step in with WAT THAT IS NOT TRUE AT ALL MY GF LUVS SM GTFO!!!111! In all seriousness, that's a great point and I'm glad you distinguished between what GW may have intended and what it communicates to a young woman. I think SoB were in some way an attempt to reach out to women, which kind of strikes its own sour notes, but you can see female fans have sort of built up their own images of Sisters and 40k generally so I guess it was at least kind of a meet you halfway moment, whereas with SM it's like the "no gurlz allowed" sign on the treehouse that is functionally invisible to the boys.
Oh, as far as it goes my major problem with Space Marines would be that they're a really rich concept that's even relevant to our world today but it just gets lost in the "omg they are so kewl!!1" stuff.
When Warhammer Online came out I tried the open beta and gleefully rolled a female dwarf engineer. The character design was all sorts of awesome and I really enjoyed it. Some months later I ended up on their forums for some reason and happened upon a thread of people completely enraged that female dwarves were playable in the game. And I was like The dwarf lore (from what understanding I gained of it from the game and that thread, having never played WFB) actually hits the same notes as the Space Marine lore in that regard.
Sisters of Battle have always sort of annoyed me because they come across as "special girl space marines who aren't as good." I know that's not the totality of them and they have their own unique stuff that's cool too and would like to ask the Sisters players to please not kill me.
In any event, Tyranids remain the premiere feminine faction of the setting and the Space Marines are all going to get et anyway so it's all pretty academic.
Madcat87 wrote: So in 40 000 years bar from a few minor mutations in a minority of humans, humanity as a whole will be physically no different to what it is today. That to me seems more weird.
It really is. Especially when humanity was broken up during the Age of Strife/Long Night. Even over a course of a couple thousand years, beneficial traits can start to emerge. Ten thousand or more? People should be a lot more distant from mainline human than they are in W40K.
As for Astartes, they only recruit the strongest aspirants, of both mind and body. I highly doubt there are many baseline humans that can kill a small dragon or a wolf of Fenris.
Also, I'm not familiar at all with WFB, but aren't their Dwarves Tolkien-like? There are female Tolkien dwarves. I don't see why they would be enraged.
I've heard somewhere that sexual dimorphism in humans is decreasing over time. I don't know if that's true, but it could have an impact if we're still around in the year 40,000!
Maybe women recognize SoB as a potential pink ghetto and steer away. Anyway, as I pointed out, the female fans of SoB have not merely assumed GW's take on them but seemingly recast them in a less ... shall we say, Blanchesque light.
Manchu wrote: Anyway, as I pointed out, the female fans of SoB have not merely assumed GW's take on them but seemingly recast them in a less ... shall we say, Blanchesque light.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I've heard somewhere that sexual dimorphism in humans is decreasing over time. I don't know if that's true, but it could have an impact if we're still around in the year 40,000!
Likely untrue on that part. However, humans have been noticeably been increasing in height since the emergence of our species, likely due to better nutrition and slow breeding over time.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I've heard somewhere that sexual dimorphism in humans is decreasing over time. I don't know if that's true, but it could have an impact if we're still around in the year 40,000!
Seems to be the opposite if anything; however the abilities of athletic ability and size of humans could be rather dramatic by then.
I'd love proper female guard and I'd love to somehow make them all Tzeentchy... I mean, would it hurt the lord of change to have a change of gender for his sorcerers?
Melissia wrote: I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Cool a fellow Texan, wheres about are you?
I think the point that were missing here is that even without models to compare or yell about, even without fluff allowing or disallowing, there's still a immense amount of interest in these existing This isn't the first forum post to appear that bring all the boys to the yard. It seems a rather easy thing for GW to make the models and then profit. The amount of scratchbuilders who go to ridiculous lengths (myself included) to make a good looking female space marine is ....really impressive. And lets all take a look at how successful Raging Heroes KS was (despite their many many missteps). There a demand.....why not supply it?
And to say that then all the people would abandon GW at that point doesn't work, cause they've done plenty to wreck consumer faith and were all still here.
Melissia wrote: I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Cool a fellow Texan, wheres about are you?
I think the point that were missing here is that even without models to compare or yell about, even without fluff allowing or disallowing, there's still a immense amount of interest in these existing This isn't the first forum post to appear that bring all the boys to the yard. It seems a rather easy thing for GW to make the models and then profit. The amount of scratchbuilders who go to ridiculous lengths (myself included) to make a good looking female space marine is ....really impressive. And lets all take a look at how successful Raging Heroes KS was (despite their many many missteps). There a demand.....why not supply it?
And to say that then all the people would abandon GW at that point doesn't work, cause they've done plenty to wreck consumer faith and were all still here.
Well given GW don't even see the point in updating SoB, I doubt they think there's much of a market for female Space Marines either.
Untrue, they do. They've tried to create plastics of them before.
That old rumour that it was technically not possible to make them? Yeah I don't really believe they put all that much effort in to it.
The current models are 17 or 18 years old, they could legally drink now I find it hard to believe they've put much effort in to making plastic sisters after all that time.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: That old rumour that it was technically not possible to make them? Yeah I don't really believe they put all that much effort in to it.
It's not exactly old, Phil Kelly said the same last year. As for effort, they would have put in about as much effort as any other army, but realised that they couldn't get them into plastic the way they wanted at the time, so likely put the Sisters on the backburner for the time being.
My Two pennies....Given what Space Marines are....I don't think the female frame could take the burden.
Otherwise, do what you like have females if you like. Although for an Astartes Breasts would be redundant?
Compare this physique with the Male equivalent...
It's the shoulders....Space Marines are all about Shoulders and Pauldrons.
I hate looking at bodybuilders, it's repulsive.
Also remember Females have much lower testosterone, and Marines are all about Testosterone , Aggression Muscle bulk etc, Women Body Builders take synthetic Testosterone to bulk up, men can as well but generally don't need to if they follow an extreme exercise regime.
Manchu wrote: . I think SoB were in some way an attempt to reach out to women, which kind of strikes its own sour notes, but you can see female fans have sort of built up their own images of Sisters and 40k generally so I guess it was at least kind of a meet you halfway moment, whereas with SM it's like the "no gurlz allowed" sign on the treehouse that is functionally invisible to the boys.
Interestingly enough, I've found that the few women I've come across who actively played went more for Tyranids, Eldar or Space Wolves than for SoB.
Well, I thought I was a boy when I chose Sisters as my secondary army (Necrons were my first), so I can't really comment on that... but the other women I know went for 'nids, Eldar and (strangely, in the accountant's case) Slaaneshi Daemons.
Melissia wrote:
Manchu wrote: Anyway, as I pointed out, the female fans of SoB have not merely assumed GW's take on them but seemingly recast them in a less ... shall we say, Blanchesque light.
May the Emperor ever curse his name.
Actually, I don't think Blanche is a sexist. I just think he has a serious fetish for high heels.
If he only drew sexualised women and burly men, I think you might have a case... but he draws sexualised men and burly women, too. As far as heels go, he's something of an equal opportunity cobbler.
Although yeah, I do wish that particular image hadn't been the cover art for the original Codex: Sisters of Battle. That one image is the source of so freaking many 'sisters in high heels' comments that it really did more harm than good. About the only thing I do approve of there is the complete lack of those damn Inquisitors in it.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Bloody murder is a real thing too and can reinforced by the tropes of pop culture. We should remove violence from 40k.
Well, I was hoping you'd get the point without me needing to go too far down the rabbit hole.
We can analyze any fictional text from at least two perspectives: (1) as if the setting is an organic-historical world and (2) as if the setting is context for text. When you talk about the "fact" of exterminatus in the 40k setting, you are talking about (1), which has no relevance to the real world. When we talk about how 40k authors portray females, we are talking about (2), which is necessarily relevant to real life because we are talking about the actual authors and publishers rather than some fictional world.
Still don't get it. I can say that 40k makes totalitarian regimes look cool and that reinforces wrong ideas in people's heads, or that it mocks religion showing people worship a rotten corpse so reinforces contempt that young people have for it. It's just about what you personaly put an emphasis on, imo.
When I talk about how 40k or any ther sf/ fantasy world authors portray females, I am still talking about fictional worlds. Especialy sf should have the priviledge to say anything, be it a book about a future where women are men servants in chains or men growing full blown fur again and women resistance fighting them to save humanity. You know, freedom.
Negative portrayal of women, positive portrayal of psychopats droping bombs at people, I don't really see a difference. And neither should be censored.
Manchu wrote: By contrast, there are strong cultures of sexism where GW sells and indeed the subcultures clustered around GW are stereotypically at least a bit more misogynistic than the ambient ideological temperature of their wider neighborhoods.
Don't know about that, I met legion of board gamers, pc gamers, tabletop gamers and can't think of a single one that was a sexist or misogyn. Console gamers yes a few but they were also heavy drinkers and far into drugs at the time, pretty mad guys and half of them were dead before reaching 30. I don't know maybe it's different here, we also don't have everyone labeled, nerd/ geek culture, geek pride and other bs, general idea is I like football you play your pc 14 hours a day, great let's go buy vodka and have fun. I guess it will change soon as we import your labels along with your products but in our youth the girls were fine with rpgs, boardgames, larps etc and no sexism emerged afair.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I don't want 40k to become a gothic variation of Mass Effect.
Don't worry, the current management hate nothing more than expanding their business. As long as those old white guys are in charge, 40k will continue to be pretty much exclusively targeted to young(er) white guys.
Well I'm white but no longer young with wife and kids and they still cater to me, in a way that they don't let overblown issues ruin their setting i.e. spoil the space marines monks in spaaace theme by letting women in out of some misguided gender equality sense.
I don't even think 40k is sexist because men and women lives are equaly worthless there. But if there was sexism, it would fit the mood of opressive totalitarian regime and be a good addition to the setting, not a problem imo.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: What always bothered me about "no female space marines" is it didn't come across as something that made sense in the setting, it just came across as "ew, girls are gross, let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story." (or perhaps more charitably: "our target demo thinks girls are gross; let's invent an excuse to keep them out of the story") But then, maybe that is me giving the rest of the setting too much credit and it's all similarly poorly thought-out.
ETA: I don't mean that as an attack on the setting. I mean I was a lot younger when I learned about it all for the first time and may not have been the most discerning literary critic.
Or maybe, just maybe, when you take any supposed influence on 40k, World War I and II, medieval times, knight orders etc, the pattern emerges... armies there consisted only of men. Female Dark Angels, female Black Templars? You'd kill half the mood they have to them.
I think you read too much into it.
They can get some realism there though and show the major role of women in war close to the front which historicaly was being prostitutes. Oh imagine the equality brigade outrage if space marines were to carry a brothel ship around, yet would be entire in line with war practice.
Manchu wrote: Sisters in heels -- the most unbelievable thing about 40k.
Certainly not the most unbelievable, but still pretty dumb, in its own particular way.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: They are just..kinda half male and half female, The Dark Prince's Gift and all. (Which can indeed happen in the rpg book Black Crusade )
1. DAUMM! just joking.
2. that picture is pretty cool, but the midriff ruins it ALOT.
3. again about the midriff, if she got shot by a bolt she would pretty much be cut in half because of how skinny she is.
Savageconvoy wrote: Tau don't distinguish from genders, only rank their caste from what I remember. Kroot are impossible to distinguish male from female by humans and GW never listed physiological differences for Tau, so the models could be female or male for all we know.
And the only book that touches on female Tau that I'm aware of is the Shadowsun book, but I won't touch that. The synopsis makes it seem like her hardest decision she's ever had to make was.... Being the leader of the empire's army or... going home and making babies... Because she's a woman...
Wow.
Just...
Wow.
agreed.
and I'm a guy.
it seems to me, the problem comes down to three things.
1. people who have been told something for twenty years and suddenly told they are wrong, they don't like it, see Christians and Galileo 2. the people who convert them tend to... umm... emphesise the girls' *cough* bits...
3. realistically, if a female was made a space marine, there would probably be absolutely no difference, perhaps some might grow longer hair.
please, I'm not trying to insult any one here, don't take it that way if I have said anything to insult anyone.
Manchu wrote: . I think SoB were in some way an attempt to reach out to women, which kind of strikes its own sour notes, but you can see female fans have sort of built up their own images of Sisters and 40k generally so I guess it was at least kind of a meet you halfway moment, whereas with SM it's like the "no gurlz allowed" sign on the treehouse that is functionally invisible to the boys.
Interestingly enough, I've found that the few women I've come across who actively played went more for Tyranids, Eldar or Space Wolves than for SoB.
Well, I thought I was a boy when I chose Sisters as my secondary army (Necrons were my first), so I can't really comment on that... but the other women I know went for 'nids, Eldar and (strangely, in the accountant's case) Slaaneshi Daemons.
Melissia wrote:
Manchu wrote: Anyway, as I pointed out, the female fans of SoB have not merely assumed GW's take on them but seemingly recast them in a less ... shall we say, Blanchesque light.
May the Emperor ever curse his name.
Actually, I don't think Blanche is a sexist. I just think he has a serious fetish for high heels.
If he only drew sexualised women and burly men, I think you might have a case... but he draws sexualised men and burly women, too. As far as heels go, he's something of an equal opportunity cobbler.
Although yeah, I do wish that particular image hadn't been the cover art for the original Codex: Sisters of Battle. That one image is the source of so freaking many 'sisters in high heels' comments that it really did more harm than good. About the only thing I do approve of there is the complete lack of those damn Inquisitors in it.
In my own personal interpretation of the setting, there are no female space marines. But, I hold no-one ill will if they want to go in the other direction with it, and if the Studio itself decided tomorrow that 'hey, yeah, there really are female space marines", I'd be pretty accepting of it (I might roll my eyes a bit). If they took out the SOB at the same time . . . my rage would be incandescent.
Anyway, had it been me, I would have handled the "in fluff" reasoning for the 'no female Space Marines' differently. I would have made it a decision based on the idea that they could not get the gene-seed to reliably produced sterile marines, and consequently; had they created legions with both genders it would not have been long before there were baby marines (who would likely have inherited their parent's lack of sterility), and pretty soon you have a population of post-human warriors that did not need regular humans to perpetuate themselves. So it was all a part of tying the Space Marines to the rest of humanity.
Pendix wrote: In my own personal interpretation of the setting, there are no female space marines. But, I hold no-one ill will if they want to go in the other direction with it, and if the Studio itself decided tomorrow that 'hey, yeah, there really are female space marines", I'd be pretty accepting of it (I might roll my eyes a bit). If they took out the SOB at the same time . . . my rage would be incandescent.
Anyway, had it been me, I would have handled the "in fluff" reasoning for the 'no female Space Marines' differently. I would have made it a decision based on the idea that they could not get the gene-seed to reliably produced sterile marines, and consequently; had they created legions with both genders it would not have been long before there were baby marines (who would likely have inherited their parent's lack of sterility), and pretty soon you have a population of post-human warriors that did not need regular humans to perpetuate themselves. So it was all a part of tying the Space Marines to the rest of humanity.
That's how I would have handled it.
herecles strangled two snakes.
goo goo marine strangled twenty rippers.
In the Dark Angels book they Implanted the Lions men even tho they were 30 to 50 and they said have of them survived. it was more than they expected. They probably implant at an early age just for higher survival rates so as not to waste time, but in the fluff they could take older candidates.
3. realistically, if a female was made a space marine, there would probably be absolutely no difference, perhaps some might grow longer hair.
please, I'm not trying to insult any one here, don't take it that way if I have said anything to insult anyone.
As some one who believes in equality I want to agreed, but i cannot.
The shape of Females makes a huge difference to their performance and also to their ability to be adapted. The female skeleton is different to the male, it is has evolved differently for very specific reasons.
This is not to say females are less, they aren't but the sexes are different. I find it very interesting that the USAF found that Female Combat Pilots were better able to withstand higher G then males. A pretty interesting decisive edge in certain circumstances...
The problem is more about the fundamental size, shape and frame of a Male is better suited to carrying the bulk. The female form especially at the hip level has evolved specifically for Child birth,
There is also the additional work required to remove certain Female Glands which would be entirely redundant on an Astartes, obviously most Male Astatres have their genetalia removed because it is redundant. This is relatively simple for a Male, much more complex for a Female.
I would agree that Male and Female Astartes would be similiar, but I think they would be smaller on average, and would require a slightly different armour because their smaller shoulder width would mean that Chest Plastons and Pauldron would need to be different.
Otherwise, I think they would need an extra gland for testosterone else you will have some well balanced Astartes, and they are bred for War not to be balanced.
I interpreted that last post as "I cannot imagine a large framed, genetically augmented woman therefor no one can". Which really just made my eyes roll, that's more your problem than mine. I can very easily think of such a thing. It's really not all that hard, especially since we're talking about a science fiction wherein plenty of illogical, unscientific things happen on a minute by minute basis. Hell, I did it in Shadowrun (and she was Human, not Troll), and that's a setting that didn't have half the fantastic stuff 40k has.
And considering we're talking about taking preteens and pumping them full of hormones and chemicals to artificially enhance their growth patterns and make them in to bulky, unreasonably large killing machines, before implanting various artificial organs to enhance their biological process... yet you're looking at the skeleton of a normal human adult? I'd like to point out that Space Marines are not normal or humans post-recruitment, and they aren't adults pre-recruitment, so that comparison simply doesn't work.
When people talk about female Space Marines who would look exactly like male Space Marines, I can't help but think of Gimli...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But if your vision of a Space Marine female is the same as a Space Marine male... why not just call all your Space Marines female and be done with it
Space Wolves don't have successor chapters... doesn't stop people from making up successor chapters for them if that's their vision.
If anyone here thinks that abuse of hormone treatment can not change a person than I urge them to look at pictures of female Olympic athletes from East Germany these women were so heavily doped up that their physical appearance changed drastically where some of them you could hardly tell were female, and this was done in the seventies and eighties, now take a young girl who has not his puberty and pump them full of testosterone and other biological and chemical agents and various other surgical argumentation and the skeletal structure of the women would change and adapt just like the rest of their bodies. Also far as I know space marines still have their genitals and according to the Demon Codex possibly still have some desires for the opposite sex.
Most of those women might look manly, but compared to the men in the same fields, they still look mostly womanly, lol.
But still, those doped up women who looked like men genuinely started taking on male traits. They weren't just big burly women, even their faces started to look more masculine.
So I imagine if you went to all the trouble of juicing up, genetically modifying, etc etc a female to turn her in to a Space Marine... she'd genuinely look like a dude. Not like a burly female, not like a dude with a woman's face, she'd actually look like a man.
So if that's your vision of a female Space Marine, then just call all your marines girly names and move on with your life, lol.
Personally I'm not a fan of the idea of slender and delicate looking female Space Marines.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Most of those women might look manly, but compared to the men in the same fields, they still look mostly womanly, lol.
But still, those doped up women who looked like men genuinely started taking on male traits. They weren't just big burly women, even their faces started to look more masculine.
So I imagine if you went to all the trouble of juicing up, genetically modifying, etc etc a female to turn her in to a Space Marine... she'd genuinely look like a dude. Not like a burly female, not like a dude with a woman's face, she'd actually look like a man.
So if that's your vision of a female Space Marine, then just call all your marines girly names and move on with your life, lol.
Personally I'm not a fan of the idea of slender and delicate looking female Space Marines.
Basically this. Boobplate just goes against the impression I want from Marines.
A Marine is supposed to be massive juggernaut of a warrior, that's why I like them.
Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap. Astartes are just fantasy knights in space, but at least in Brettonia woman could be a knight and wear plate if she felt like it. Changing 25+years of fluff to justify a head swap seems like a bit too much work.
My wife would be just fine playing my Sisters of Battle, especially after she came to the conclusion that the imagery of the Sisters can be taken as deliberately oversexed (boob plates, etc) to force the image home that they are flaunting the rule of "no men under arms", while burning everything in the Emperor's name. Showing that the ecclesiarchy can simply, blatantly sidestep one of the largest rules against them if they want to, because they are that powerful.
Is something GW does every codex release, so I don't really see that as something I care about.
There's a difference between how fundamental fluff is. Like it or not, that only male Marines exist is one of the longest-standing and most stable facts. It can still be retconned at a whim of course... But while anything can change a la Necron for all we know, it does not seem likely given that it was to increase the popularity of the Necrons, a problem the SM do not have.
There's no reason why you couldn't have female marines other than contradicting the long standing tradition. The Imperium may very well *have* the ability to make them and simply not because they're so scientifically ignorant they think it simply won't work on women.
That said if you were to start recruiting women a) there's no reason to eschew men. The chapter would be a mix of genders and b) the physiological changes to their bodies would be so severe (marines have massive testosterone levels for obvious reasons) they'd likely be almost indistinguishable from their male counterparts even outside of armour.
It is also easy to believe that the top 0.1% (those that get a look in for recruitment) are so overwhelmingly consistently male that it's simply easier to just pick from that lot. Any way you slice it on the tabletop there'd be no difference.
Space MArines having penises is not fundamental to their design.
Technically it is.
Or well, we do not know if they actually keep them. But Space Marines are at least born men, and remain male to a degree even if we do not know if they get their manparts removed. (Which they logically should.)
Whether that is a wise decision or not is another discussion entirely.
But they have been male from the start, and they have always been male outside of fanfics.
Melissia wrote: I interpreted that last post as "I cannot imagine a large framed, genetically augmented woman therefor no one can". Which really just made my eyes roll, that's more your problem than mine. I can very easily think of such a thing. It's really not all that hard, especially since we're talking about a science fiction wherein plenty of illogical, unscientific things happen on a minute by minute basis. Hell, I did it in Shadowrun (and she was Human, not Troll), and that's a setting that didn't have half the fantastic stuff 40k has.
And considering we're talking about taking preteens and pumping them full of hormones and chemicals to artificially enhance their growth patterns and make them in to bulky, unreasonably large killing machines, before implanting various artificial organs to enhance their biological process... yet you're looking at the skeleton of a normal human adult? I'd like to point out that Space Marines are not normal or humans post-recruitment, and they aren't adults pre-recruitment, so that comparison simply doesn't work.
That and the development of their bones is hijacked to ensure they develop skeletons with the composition closest to a ceramic-like material capable of flat deflecting rounds off it and have a fused/segmented ribcage. The only difference with any female space marines in the bone structure area would be them having pauldrons closer to their head and maybe wider hips.
What I really would like however is a redesign of Sisters of Battle, because it's just the boobplate that has always annoyed me, and I like the duality and love/hate relationship between the two branches, Astartes and Sororitas- pretty much like bickering siblings.
And just to prevent the discussion on Astartes genitals, yes, Salamanders had families in the old fluff. This hasn't been touched on at all since with no contradictions.
Their sex doesn't have anything to do with their core concept, though. Maybe you could argue that them all being the same sex does, but then saying adding women to a chapter would suddenly make them sexual doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense unless the Space Marines don't recruit gay guys.
When people say "female Space Marines" I tend to imagine an entire chapter that only recruits women.
Is there anyone who would actually not play against someone because their sergeants or chapter master or whatever had converted heads, though? I'm pretty sure if I turned up with some pastel-coloured Space Marines with converted heads for the un-helmeted ones and was standing in front of someone asking if they wanted to play a game then they'd have to be a real jerk of the highest order to actually say they wouldn't play with me because of it, even if they'd post on a forum that they didn't like the concept.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Their sex doesn't have anything to do with their core concept, though. Maybe you could argue that them all being the same sex does, but then saying adding women to a chapter would suddenly make them sexual doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense unless the Space Marines don't recruit gay guys.
When people say "female Space Marines" I tend to imagine an entire chapter that only recruits women.
Is there anyone who would actually not play against someone because their sergeants or chapter master or whatever had converted heads, though? I'm pretty sure if I turned up with some pastel-coloured Space Marines with converted heads for the un-helmeted ones and was standing in front of someone asking if they wanted to play a game then they'd have to be a real jerk of the highest order to actually say they wouldn't play with me because of it, even if they'd post on a forum that they didn't like the concept.
I probably would if it's absolutely horrendously fluff-breaking. Different armies match ups are OK (pre heresy versus heresy), but Male SOBs or female Astartes that can't be handwaved as Slaaneshi? Nope.
But really, there is no point for there to be female space marines besides "everything must be equal!!!1111!!" from one small group of the fandom. There's already SOB's, just cut the godawful boobplate.
(It's the only thing I hate about the SOB's. That boob plate just looks horrendous. Swap it out with Astartes chest pieces, plus fluffwise they could just gut it of the additional systems SOBs can't use and fill it with more armor to protect them better than form-fitting armor.)
Kojiro wrote: It is also easy to believe that the top 0.1% (those that get a look in for recruitment)
Aren't the top 0.1%.
They are the top 0.1% of a very tiny portion (male, young, lucky enough to be found by the chapter, lucky enough to survive the recruitment process itself, genetically compatible to the gene-seed, lucky enough to survive implantation) of a very tiny number of worlds. Space Marines don't recruit the best.
They are the top 0.1% of a very tiny portion (male, young, lucky enough to be found by the chapter, lucky enough to survive the recruitment process itself, genetically compatible to the gene-seed, lucky enough to survive implantation) of a very tiny number of worlds. Space Marines don't recruit the best.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Melissia, but what exactly are you trying to say here? It seems like you're claiming marines don't recruit from the entire human species but only those with favourable factors (that cause them to come into contact with the chapter)- and that there may be others humans in existence that are superior choices for marines? Ergo they are not recruiting 'the best' because there are better choices (whom they'll never meet) out there.
But I thought it was implied in my comments that I was only talking about those they actually look at. I'll restate it; It is easy to believe that- of those who get a look in for recriutment- the top 0.1% (or whatever threshold the chapter recruits at) are so consistently male it has simply become expedient/policy/tradition to do so.
thepowerfulwill wrote: At this point I'm kinda feeling sorry for making this thread... It just keeps flame warring and flame warring...
Eh, don't be. It's the same as when the threads about race/ethnicity in 40k comes up. Some people say everyone is the same race after thousands of years, aka white, while others argue that they still would be different and possibly be even more diverse.
It's just what happens, but that doesn't make it something that shouldn't be discussed.
AegisGrimm wrote: Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap.
But if you're sticking to the "female marines are modified to be just as buff as male marines" or "future women are just as buff as future men"... you wouldn't even need a head swap. Start modifying a woman's hormones, pump her full of testosterone, modify her genetics so she grows a larger skeleton, guess what, her face is gonna look like a man as well.
You want to know what a female Space Marine would look like with her helmet off?
Marines do start early enough for heavy testosterone treatments to cause women to grow facial hair.
Incidentally, that's a legitimate reason to leave male Marines their junk - The testicles are the primary (but not the only) source of testosterone in a body, so modifying them to be hyper-active is the easiest way to flood the male system with testosterone.
Furyou Miko wrote: Marines do start early enough for heavy testosterone treatments to cause women to grow facial hair.
Incidentally, that's a legitimate reason to leave male Marines their junk - The testicles are the primary (but not the only) source of testosterone in a body, so modifying them to be hyper-active is the easiest way to flood the male system with testosterone.
Someday, I just want there to be a discussion on Astartes outside normal fluff like what's your favorite chapter or armor- that doesn't result to discussing Astartes genitals. Because I just want to know that it's possible. It's like the W40K version of Godwin's Law.
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
There's a difference between changing a minor faction and changing their main source of bread and butter who's fanbase is exceptionally volatile. They're highly unlikely to ever pull such a bad move, especially when they have the SOB line.
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
Necron lore hasn't actually been around that long. They changed from their Chapter Approved self dramatically, and then came about 3rd edition dex changing things up.
And apparently the lore didn't help out because they were having some truly extreme issues trying to give the Necrons character and thus they needed to be changed, not to mention how mary sue the C'tan had became.
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
Necron lore hasn't actually been around that long. They changed from their Chapter Approved self dramatically, and then came about 3rd edition dex changing things up.
And apparently the lore didn't help out because they were having some truly extreme issues trying to give the Necrons character and thus they needed to be changed, not to mention how mary sue the C'tan had became.
Lol. I just love how the C'tan went from nasty eldritch gods.... to nasty eldritch gods that got crippled by the race that they had originally considered slaves. Just makes the Necrons now come off as a serious business race that you really don't want to anger.
Also don't forget the extra dosage of nostalgia. C'tan became Necron pokemon
I can see it now. A necron sitting back. Aaaaah don't you just remember the good ol' days? When there were only 151 pokemon? Nowadays, the young ones are all running around with their skullboy 3000 and their 41,000 pokemon. So unoriginal are the new ones. Don't you remember the old good ones like the pile of sludge and the pokeball with eyes?
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
Necron lore hasn't actually been around that long. They changed from their Chapter Approved self dramatically, and then came about 3rd edition dex changing things up.
And apparently the lore didn't help out because they were having some truly extreme issues trying to give the Necrons character and thus they needed to be changed, not to mention how mary sue the C'tan had became.
Also some other fluff changes. *cough*chaos undivided*cough* then there was the older but painful THERE ARE ONLY WARBANDS. Other gods within the warp were mostly perged and they made it impossible to have undivided princes (discounting Bel'akour)
AegisGrimm wrote: Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap. Astartes are just fantasy knights in space, but at least in Brettonia woman could be a knight and wear plate if she felt like it. Changing 25+years of fluff to justify a head swap seems like a bit too much work.
Ahh but the reason these threads bring up so much debate is cause those people don't want a simple head swap...Most who want female space marines want a feminine looking miniature to field who should be sort of hot looking and a simple head swap will not suffice.
Mind you this is not everyone on this forum and said miniature doesn't have to be dressed in a metal bikini bolt gun blazing (though that would sell pretty well imho), but the general desire is to have a marine who looks like a female....a bad ass female in power armor, but a female all the same.
AegisGrimm wrote: Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap. Astartes are just fantasy knights in space, but at least in Brettonia woman could be a knight and wear plate if she felt like it. Changing 25+years of fluff to justify a head swap seems like a bit too much work.
Ahh but the reason these threads bring up so much debate is cause those people don't want a simple head swap...Most who want female space marines want a feminine looking miniature to field who should be sort of hot looking and a simple head swap will not suffice.
Mind you this is not everyone on this forum and said miniature doesn't have to be dressed in a metal bikini bolt gun blazing (though that would sell pretty well imho), but the general desire is to have a marine who looks like a female....a bad ass female in power armor, but a female all the same.
Kojiro wrote: But I thought it was implied in my comments that I was only talking about those they actually look at.
If, for example, you are forming a mercenary band, and you only ever recruit from balding white men who are exactly five foot ten and whom have a distant family relation to you, you're going to miss a large number of able bodied recruits.
Even if you only recruit "the best" of these people, you're still missing out on the non-bald, non-white, non-men, who are taller or shorter than 5'10", and whom have no familial relationship to you, many of whom could very well be far better applicants than the ones you did accept.
The Space Marines recruit more exclusively than the aforementioned mercenary band. The Imperial Guard recruits more of "the best" than Space Marines do explicitly BECAUSE they're less arbitrarily exclusive.
AegisGrimm wrote: Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap. Astartes are just fantasy knights in space, but at least in Brettonia woman could be a knight and wear plate if she felt like it. Changing 25+years of fluff to justify a head swap seems like a bit too much work.
Ahh but the reason these threads bring up so much debate is cause those people don't want a simple head swap...Most who want female space marines want a feminine looking miniature to field who should be sort of hot looking and a simple head swap will not suffice.
Mind you this is not everyone on this forum and said miniature doesn't have to be dressed in a metal bikini bolt gun blazing (though that would sell pretty well imho), but the general desire is to have a marine who looks like a female....a bad ass female in power armor, but a female all the same.
This would probably sell very well
KILL IT WITH FIRE
Its not that awful, jeez. plus she as an armor save of 3+ so you'd need melta or plasma instead
also I use that picture only cause its the most decent depiction of what most people are talking about when they describe female formed power armor...please feel free to ignore/threaten/kill with fire the anime head and hair.
AegisGrimm wrote: Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap. Astartes are just fantasy knights in space, but at least in Brettonia woman could be a knight and wear plate if she felt like it. Changing 25+years of fluff to justify a head swap seems like a bit too much work.
Ahh but the reason these threads bring up so much debate is cause those people don't want a simple head swap...Most who want female space marines want a feminine looking miniature to field who should be sort of hot looking and a simple head swap will not suffice.
Mind you this is not everyone on this forum and said miniature doesn't have to be dressed in a metal bikini bolt gun blazing (though that would sell pretty well imho), but the general desire is to have a marine who looks like a female....a bad ass female in power armor, but a female all the same.
This would probably sell very well
She could purge me if she wanted ,
.
Interesting that rule 63 only seems to apply to things in anime style "art".
Personnally, I obvyously think that that thing would most certainly sell,
I would not buy one, but wapanese and weeboos would jump at the chance (did I use the right words then?)
I'l be honest, I like the "badass female" character set as much as the next guy, but Less in the sense of
"big tits, big gun"
More in the sense of characters like ripley (although we saw a lot of leg in the first movie).
Kojiro wrote: But I thought it was implied in my comments that I was only talking about those they actually look at.
If, for example, you are forming a mercenary band, and you only ever recruit from balding white men who are exactly five foot ten and whom have a distant family relation to you, you're going to miss a large number of able bodied recruits.
Even if you only recruit "the best" of these people, you're still missing out on the non-bald, non-white, non-men, who are taller or shorter than 5'10", and whom have no familial relationship to you, many of whom could very well be far better applicants than the ones you did accept.
The Space Marines recruit more exclusively than the aforementioned mercenary band. The Imperial Guard recruits more of "the best" than Space Marines do explicitly BECAUSE they're less arbitrarily exclusive.
Are you using hyperbole? I'm not sure what chapter only recruits people with a family relation to them.
Anyway, I'm never quite sure what we're arguing in these threads. If we're arguing that we want feminine Space Marines, as in, more feminine features, that's something I don't particularly want because it goes against the big buff aesthetic of Space Marines. If we're arguing that we want big buff female Space Marines, it really just comes down to a fluff issue, because you wouldn't be able to tell the difference on the models anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the shrouded lord wrote: She could purge me if she wanted ,
.
Interesting that rule 63 only seems to apply to things in anime style "art".
Because the people who are in to anime are the most screwed up as well
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm not sure what chapter only recruits people with a family relation to them.
All of them do; they require genetic similarity to the gene-seed. If you aren't genetically compatible enough, the gene-seed rejects you and you die a horrible and painful death.
Melissia wrote: The Imperial Guard recruits more of "the best" than Space Marines do explicitly BECAUSE they're less arbitrarily exclusive.
Are you using hyperbole? I'm not sure what chapter only recruits people with a family relation to them.
Well, there's probably one that does out there... But I guess Melissia is getting at the fact that the only characteristic a Chapter MUST look for is a compatibility with their geneseed. Being the strongest, fastest, most cunning survivor and ferocious male warrior on their recruiting world is worth absolutely nothing if he's not compatible. And whatever his base health and intelligence the process of molding him into a marine will make it totally irrelevant. The implants stimulate such insane growth of muscles and bone structure that it matters not if you were Arnold or a 5' 4'' 100 pound scavenger before it, and the psycho-indoctrination will make an adequate marine of even caveman barbarians.
Chapters that bother with trials by combat or other deadly tests are in reality just wasting potential recruits. But it's become tradition and that's how they do it.
Arnold is too old at this point to be noticably changed by the process anyway. Most of the recruits would be around a hundred pounds simply because of their age and the fact that they're on feral/feudal worlds.
Well, at least I didn't give her a boob plate. Besides, those are just sketches I did on the fly with 0 references, so, they aren't that accurate (anatomy and armor wise).
Well, at least I didn't give her a boob plate. Besides, those are just sketches I did on the fly with 0 references, so, they aren't that accurate (anatomy and armor wise).
Buff her up massively, especially waist, knees, head, elbows, and neck, and you might be getting somewhere.
Well, at least I didn't give her a boob plate. Besides, those are just sketches I did on the fly with 0 references, so, they aren't that accurate (anatomy and armor wise).
By giving her that ridiculously long 'waist' that cuts under the floating ribs (which Marines don't have, by the way, they've got solid extended slabs of bone), you basically did though.
A female Space Marine should have a thick, heavily muscled waist. Honestly, a female Space Marine's should be very masculine. I think the fact GW only portrays Space Marines as white skinheads is a little bit more of a pressing issue that can be remedied in the fluff.
trexmeyer wrote: A female Space Marine should have a thick, heavily muscled waist. Honestly, a female Space Marine's should be very masculine. I think the fact GW only portrays Space Marines as white skinheads is a little bit more of a pressing issue that can be remedied in the fluff.
To be fair, there are Salamanders. It's not much but it's something.
And some of them have hair. It's just that Astartes Pattern Baldness is apparently seen as a sacred thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless it is a sacred wig STC, mind you.
Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
Astartes hair seems to come in two flavors. Long flowing mullets that are perfect for catching nearby breezes, and the famed "astartes pattern baldness".
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
Pretty much, I always figured they had the serfs shave it off for them. Except for those chapters that seem far more comfortable about having hair or having way too much of it (Blood Ravens and Space Wolves)
trexmeyer wrote: A female Space Marine should have a thick, heavily muscled waist. Honestly, a female Space Marine's should be very masculine. I think the fact GW only portrays Space Marines as white skinheads is a little bit more of a pressing issue that can be remedied in the fluff.
To be fair, there are Salamanders. It's not much but it's something.
And some of them have hair. It's just that Astartes Pattern Baldness is apparently seen as a sacred thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless it is a sacred wig STC, mind you.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
It's really not difficult to tie your hair up and fit it under a hat. Would it really be much harder to fit it under a helmet? Where are the short haircuts? Why do Space Marines look liked 40 year old juiced to the gills powerlifters?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
It's really not difficult to tie your hair up and fit it under a hat. Would it really be much harder to fit it under a helmet? Where are the short haircuts? Why do Space Marines look liked 40 year old juiced to the gills powerlifters?
You mean besides all the extra organs, the genetic engineering, the intense training, and the constant use of a power suit that attachs to them in a literal sense?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
It's really not difficult to tie your hair up and fit it under a hat. Would it really be much harder to fit it under a helmet? Where are the short haircuts? Why do Space Marines look liked 40 year old juiced to the gills powerlifters?
Pfft, how long have you had long hair?
Wearing it in a fancy up do starts to hurt after a while without a helmet.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
It's really not difficult to tie your hair up and fit it under a hat. Would it really be much harder to fit it under a helmet? Where are the short haircuts? Why do Space Marines look liked 40 year old juiced to the gills powerlifters?
Pfft, how long have you had long hair?
Wearing it in a fancy up do starts to hurt after a while without a helmet.
im guessing your a girl?
well, long hair doesn't hurt that much when your a guy with long hair, although, that time I was walking around in a Templar helmet I felt like my hair was being ripped out.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Isn't the "skinhead" thing simply because that's what is most comfortable if you spend a large portion of your time wearing a helmet? Just seems like the logical thing to do. It's more strange that Space Wolves are so often hairy, I just imagine the Space Wolves who are wearing a helmet having a mess of hair under there.
It's really not difficult to tie your hair up and fit it under a hat. Would it really be much harder to fit it under a helmet? Where are the short haircuts? Why do Space Marines look liked 40 year old juiced to the gills powerlifters?
Because short buzz cuts are good and feel good?
Baldness probably results from the immortality/near immortality kicking in during their forties or something.
Sooo...the armor of a female astartes should just look like a Sister of Battle with all the fleur de lys and gothic embellishments removed. Seems very pointless.
Sooo...the armor of a female astartes should just look like a Sister of Battle with all the fleur de lys and gothic embellishments removed. Seems very pointless.
Not to mention female Astartes defeats the point of their creation in the first place. And the reason why SOBs exist. They should stay separated as well lest GW wants to pull a really bad marketing move, and nerd rage is not to be underestimated.
Wyzilla wrote: Not to mention female Astartes defeats the point of their creation in the first place
You don't create a Space Marine so that they can have a penis.
You create them so that you can have an uberbadass heavily modified pseudo-human whom can do missions that are nearly impossible for normal humans. Gender is irrelevant in this.
Wyzilla wrote: Not to mention female Astartes defeats the point of their creation in the first place
You don't create a Space Marine so that they can have a penis.
You create them so that you can have an uberbadass heavily modified pseudo-human whom can do missions that are nearly impossible for normal humans. Gender is irrelevant in this.
Due to height, bone structure, muscle developmnt differences and so forth, Wouldnt it take way more resources and time to get them the same as marines? They would need to change the basic make up of a women to a man then go on to making her a marine and so forth. Sounds like a waste of resources and time to me. But as usaul I dont look at the fluff much so I could be wrong.
Swastakowey wrote: Due to height, bone structure, muscle developmnt differences and so forth, Wouldnt it take way more resources and time to get them the same as marines?
Not when they recruit before or during puberty, where the body is most sensitive to growth hormones to begin with.
Also, given that 40k is a universe wherein the most capable human soldiers are women, this is a silly suggestion.
Swastakowey wrote: Due to height, bone structure, muscle developmnt differences and so forth, Wouldnt it take way more resources and time to get them the same as marines?
Not when they recruit before or during puberty, where the body is most sensitive to growth hormones to begin with.
Also, given that 40k is a universe wherein the most capable human soldiers are women, this is a silly suggestion.
Ok well if your gonna argue using crap im not gonna bother. And in 40k women are not the most capable soldiers... sisters of battle hardly even fight real battles anyway , unless some poor family has a kid with 6 toes counts. In the imperial guard all fluff, models and stories point to males being the dominant driving force of the imperium (in leadership, manpower and heroes). Anyways that last statement is far from correct.
Sisters of Battle, the only humans capable of overcoming human limitations through pure skill and martial training (according to C:WH's explanation of Acts of Faith).
Just because the writers rarely ever think to write female Imperial Guard characters doesn't make it a conscious decision to exclude women. It just makes them lazy. It's always better to assume incompetence rather than malice.
Sisters of Battle, the only humans capable of overcoming human limitations through pure skill and martial training (according to C:WH's explanation of Acts of Faith).
That has nothing to do with them being female. The only reason there are no units of male Eccleciarchy troops in power armor with tons of flamers calling down acts of faith is an Imperial Edict saying "no", that the Sisters being female is to just to expressly flaunt.
Wyzilla wrote: Not to mention female Astartes defeats the point of their creation in the first place
You don't create a Space Marine so that they can have a penis.
You create them so that you can have an uberbadass heavily modified pseudo-human whom can do missions that are nearly impossible for normal humans. Gender is irrelevant in this.
Space Marines exist to fill the super soldier/space marine, crusader, and military monk tropes. Since their inception with W40K, they're meant to male, to even the point that IIRC the Emperor declared them to be male.
Plus you also seem to be ignoring that, with a population in the high trillions, there's no shortage of aspirants suitable, and the strongest woman will be weaker than the strongest man. There is absolutely no point for them to draw from female recruits, especially when it will cost them more resources in the long run considering 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of female recruits will simply die from gene-seed rejection. That and the end result of making a female astartes would genderswap them into a male.
The SOB's exist for a reason. Screwing with the gender of astartes and adding female astartes for no good reason is simply stupid, as the only justification is 'just because', and kills the theme of Astartes being crusading knights.
Sisters of Battle, the only humans capable of overcoming human limitations through pure skill and martial training (according to C:WH's explanation of Acts of Faith).
That has nothing to do with them being female.
You're completely missing the point.
The fact is, they're STILL the only humans shown to be regularly capable of exceeding human limitations without psychic power or cybernetic implants.
It's not because they're female, I agree, but not for the same reason you'd think. The reason why it's "not because they're female" is actually because there's no difference, in 40k's narrative, between the fighting capability of a male and female human. They're capable of doing the miraculous things they do because of their unrivaled dedication to their training, and the skill that results from it.
But my point was simple: If the Sisters of Battle are capable of training their women soldiers to exceed human limitations, then it's quite obvious that, within 40k's setting, plenty of female candidates that have the capabilities required to be considered Astartes exist.
Within 40k's lore, the reason behind Astartes being all-men has nothing at all to do with fighting capability, and you really need to stop pushing that argument.
AegisGrimm wrote: For that matter we should retcon the Sisters of Battle because some people might not want to have to play an army made purely of female models.
I've already responded to this. That you chose to ignore the response says very poorly about you.
Sisters of Battle, the only humans capable of overcoming human limitations through pure skill and martial training (according to C:WH's explanation of Acts of Faith).
That has nothing to do with them being female.
You're completely missing the point.
The fact is, they're STILL the only humans shown to be regularly capable of exceeding human limitations without psychic power or cybernetic implants.
It's not because they're female, I agree, but not for the same reason you'd think. The reason why it's "not because they're female" is actually because there's no difference, in 40k's narrative, between the fighting capability of a male and female human. They're capable of doing the miraculous things they do because of their unrivaled dedication to their training, and the skill that results from it.
But my point was simple: If the Sisters of Battle are capable of training their women soldiers to exceed human limitations, then it's quite obvious that, within 40k's setting, plenty of female candidates that have the capabilities required to be considered Astartes exist.
Within 40k's lore, the reason behind Astartes being all-men has nothing at all to do with fighting capability, and you really need to stop pushing that argument.
AegisGrimm wrote: For that matter we should retcon the Sisters of Battle because some people might not want to have to play an army made purely of female models.
I've already responded to this. That you chose to ignore the response says very poorly about you.
except you are basing it on skill and not genetics.
I've already responded to this. That you chose to ignore the response says very poorly about your critical thinking ability.
Considering the response, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one willing to repeat myself to death over the subject.
Space Marines being purely men is as big a part of the imagery as Sisters of Battle being purely women. That's just the way it is. It's not some conspiracy by a miniatures game to tromp on women's rights.
You never responded to my post regarding why people might want female Space Marines, and why, yes, it IS different than the never-seriosu requests for male Sisters of Battle.
You never responded to my post regarding why people might want female Space Marines, and why, yes, it IS different than the never-seriosu requests for male Sisters of Battle.
Actually there was nothing farcical about my latest post. It is exactly as fair a point as the reasoning behind female Astartes.
So it's perfectly fine to alter the fluff of Space marines to be "fair" to both genders, but Sisters of Battle fiction would not suffer from the same rule?
Also, the given reason in the lore is that the average hormone levels of the pubescent male candidates are required for it, which is uncommon for girls of the same age (though by no means rare or unheard of). It's a lazy excuse, but at least it's not as lazy as "genetics", which would be wrong on so many levels.
AegisGrimm: Stop being lazy and go back to actually read the conversation.
I actually provided an example of "Male Sisters of Battle" that has existed in the lore. You ignored it, because you're not honestly interested in "Male Sisters of Battle". Or being intellectually honest in this conversation.
AegisGrimm: Stop being lazy and go back to actually read the conversation.
As guilty of posting about nothing as this makes me, why is it your personal mission to attack anything I say? I have made one sarcastic remark among a slew of constructively questioning ones.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
plot line!!! ........ however that's asking the world of 
(Rocket girl) 
it's all part of the feel.
The dwarf lore (from what understanding I gained of it from the game and that thread, having never played WFB) actually hits the same notes as the Space Marine lore in that regard.
,
What does that come from?