50541
Post by: Ashiraya
I'll be honest. I've always held a certain dislike for Battle Sisters and Death Korps of Krieg, for only one real reason.
Personality.
I'll explain what I mean. Most races in 40K vary a lot in personalities, in the race itself. There is a considerable difference between an Eldar and an Eldar, an Ork and an Ork, a Marine and a Marine, and so on, and so forth. Hell, even the Swarmlord shows surprising individuality when you consider its context and situation.
Battle Sisters and Death Korps, on the other hand, are trained to be fearless weapons from birth. Not only are the slightest transgressions punished extraordinarily hardly, they are expected to want to punish themselves- whether by Repentia, or by seeking a quicker death in battle, or whatever- in addition to this. They are given no real education over what is needed for them to function, and any individuality or, effectively, personality shown is seen as heresy. Unless you do exactly as told, say what you are supposed to say, and look how you are supposed to look, 24/7/365, you are punished. You're guided throughout, and in the case of the Kriegsmen perhaps even genetically manipulated (I don't know, the lore on that never seemed clear to me with implications and whatnot) to become a faceless, personalityless, soulless weapon.
To me, this is just not interesting. You effectively create factions that make Oldcrons seem like having deep, unique and interesting personalities. I don't get why having an army of carbon copies is 'fun'. Marines avoid this pitfall by having differences not only between Chapters, but also from Marine to Marine. They simply have enough individual freedom, albeit within borders, to develop into unique people (And having a reasonably normal childhood helps), whereas Kriegsmen and Sisters do not. Both of these armies have distinct visuals aaaaaand that's about it. Beneath the surface they have nothing.
What's so fun with being uninteresting? Or have I missed something? 
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Post by: Bobthehero
There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
 Bobthehero wrote:There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
It was the Death Korps that I was specifically referring to. I never mentioned Cadians. I am asking about Korpsman-to-Korpsman differences.
Ultramarines vary significantly from what I have seen, such as the Ultramarines novels. In contrast, no DKoK fluff I've read gives me the impression of variety.
73675
Post by: TiamatRoar
Well, neither the Battle Sisters or the Death Korps have a real codex, so they can probably get by on being slightly less personalizable than the other factions.
(that said, I always viewed the Death Korps more as a sub-faction of the Imperial Guard than a faction of itself)
Various fluff sources say each sisterhood developed its own traditions, etc, which is obviously meant to be an attempt to notify you that you're allowed to personalize your sisterhood a bit. But it's true (or at least, my opinion) that the sisterhood is one of the less customizable "factions" of 40k.
They aren't as uncustomizable as oldcrons, though (or Death Korps, for that matter, although again, I personally view Death Korps as more a subfaction of Imperial Guard). At the very least, you can give various sisterhoods different opinions on what the Emperor will do or wants, and how to properly worship him. As well as varying tolerances with other factions (some convents might tolerate, understand, respect, or at least be willing to work with other Imperial factions or even xenos more than others. Even back during the War for Armegeddon campaign, it was mentioned that one sister's precursor was a lot more trigger happy on Space Marines than the current cannoness of an order).
Oldcrons would never work with anyone under any condition and were always the same from tomb world to tomb world in that regard.
IMHO though, if the sisters ever get a real codex, something should probably be done to ease up on the customization, if only a little. They don't even have different hairstyle options right now.
44119
Post by: kinratha
 BrotherHaraldus wrote: Bobthehero wrote:There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
It was the Death Korps that I was specifically referring to. I never mentioned Cadians. I am asking about Korpsman-to-Korpsman differences.
Ultramarines vary significantly from what I have seen, such as the Ultramarines novels. In contrast, no DKoK fluff I've read gives me the impression of variety.
Korpsman-to-Korpsman Difference is There ID number and what Tube they came from. other then that, they are a big body of fearless Troops.
Unlike Cadians, who trooper-to-trooper might result in 1 man who wont run and 1 who will.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
TiamatRoar wrote:
IMHO though, if the sisters ever get a real codex, something should probably be done to ease up on the customization, if only a little. They don't even have different hairstyle options right now.
If you're caught with a hairstyle other than the Righteous Hairstyle™ you're immediately sentenced to Arco-Flagellation. If you're lucky. And the case is extraordinarily mild.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kinratha wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote: Bobthehero wrote:There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
It was the Death Korps that I was specifically referring to. I never mentioned Cadians. I am asking about Korpsman-to-Korpsman differences.
Ultramarines vary significantly from what I have seen, such as the Ultramarines novels. In contrast, no DKoK fluff I've read gives me the impression of variety.
Korpsman-to-Korpsman Difference is There ID number and what Tube they came from. other then that, they are a big body of fearless Troops.
Unlike Cadians, who trooper-to-trooper might result in 1 man who wont run and 1 who will.
Exactly, that is the issue. How do you get something interesting out of that?
44119
Post by: kinratha
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kinratha wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote: Bobthehero wrote:There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
It was the Death Korps that I was specifically referring to. I never mentioned Cadians. I am asking about Korpsman-to-Korpsman differences.
Ultramarines vary significantly from what I have seen, such as the Ultramarines novels. In contrast, no DKoK fluff I've read gives me the impression of variety.
Korpsman-to-Korpsman Difference is There ID number and what Tube they came from. other then that, they are a big body of fearless Troops.
Unlike Cadians, who trooper-to-trooper might result in 1 man who wont run and 1 who will.
Well DKoK do have personality, It's in there Tanks, siege equipment and Attack strategies.
There is a rule in IA12 that lets you re-roll leadership test for the DKoK if they are by a Tank with a unique paint style.
71489
Post by: Troike
I'll try to explain it as best I can, from my point of view. What I find appealing about this characterisation is how dedicated, how resolved it makes them seem. Though just ordinary humans, they display a singular dedication to their cause lets them stand up and really fight well in 40K's brutal warzones. Throuh their respective mindsets, they're able to perform better than their human peers in what they do. A pretty cool example of badass normals, to use a Tv Tropes term. Some aspect of their humanity is sacrificed in order to make them better tools of war. For the SoB specifically, this mindset even lets them regularly pull off things that people (both in-universe and out!) mistake for miracles, which, IMO, is rather badass. Another thing is that it's also a key part of what these factions are meant to be, examples of an extreme. They're so dedicated to their respective causes that any other concerns are quite sidelined in favour of focusing on said cause. Indeed, I'd say it makes sense for such groups to exist in the Imperium, no? A brutal, bloody, zealous regime is bound to have some factions like this. On another note, in my view, one may as well complain about the Tyranids in general being too one-dimensional. That sort of characterisation is just who they are as a faction. It's okay if you don't like it, but there's nothing wrong or incorrect about others finding some appeal in it. Besides, there's plenty of others factions that have massive amounts of variation in them. If one wants varied humans, then the IG and SM are ideal. BrotherHaraldus wrote:to develop into unique people (And having a reasonably normal childhood helps), whereas Kriegsmen and Sisters do not.
I can't speak for the Kriegers, since I don't know their lore well enough, but this isn't necessarily true for the Sisters. We see differing personas and temperments with the Sisters, but what makes them Sisters is that their faith to their cause is still underlying all of that. You can absolutely play around with personalities with the SoB and still have them be "proper" SoB, so long as they're also kept as faithful, disciplined zealots too. BrotherHaraldus wrote:Both of these armies have distinct visuals aaaaaand that's about it. Beneath the surface they have nothing.
I think that's a little unfair, and a little unkind to people who like those armies. What does any army have to set them apart besides visuals? Lots of fluff, of course, the various details of what makes this faction this faction, as well as their numerous campaigns and interactions with the 40K setting at large.
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Post by: Psienesis
Amongst themselves, Sisters have plenty of personality. The public face of the Sororitas, however, is ultra-pure, ultra-righteous, ultra-faithful, ultra-hardline zealots for the Emperor, who pity you because your faith is inferior to theirs, and thus you can not truly know His Light.
This public face, of course, is based on their actual lifestyles. Inside the convents, things are not going to be terribly much different, except that more of them might speak (if they have not taken a vow of silence for a year as a punishment for failing to clean a bolter properly), rather than just the leadership units.
Especially if you are a mutant, a psyker, an alien or a heretic, all of which exist to be purged with the sacred triumvirate of bolter, flamer and melta, being abominations in the eyes of the God-Emperor.
They are members of a strict, religious order and maintain lives of ultra-puritan values, believing, as they do, that the purpose of life is to suffer. It's a penitent order, so the Sisters are always paying for some sin or another, no matter how slight.
Also, their kung-fu is better than yours, as it allows them to dodge tank shells and stuff. So... there is that. Obviously, the Emperor does take a pretty keen interest in what the Sisters have going on, since he sure seems to keep them alive through some crazy gak.
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Post by: Troike
TiamatRoar wrote:Various fluff sources say each sisterhood developed its own traditions, etc, which is obviously meant to be an attempt to notify you that you're allowed to personalize your sisterhood a bit.
Indeed. The new AS codex talks about Minor Orders a fair bit. One notable addition was that they can now be up to 1000 Sisters big, I think they wanted to emphasise this aspect, which is cool. TiamatRoar wrote:IMHO though, if the sisters ever get a real codex, something should probably be done to ease up on the customization, if only a little. They don't even have different hairstyle options right now.
Heresy! The bobcut is sacred. Silliness aside, I think it fits them. As a tightly controlled religious organisation, a uniform haircut isn't exactly out of place. Though maybe they'll change it with new SoB models, we'll see.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 Troike wrote:I think that's a little unfair, and a little unkind to people who like those armies. What does any army have to set them apart besides visuals? Lots of fluff, of course, the various details of what makes this faction this faction, as well as their numerous campaigns and interactions with the 40K setting at large.
Mind you, I did not intend to offend anyone. I just explained my observations.
Keep the answers comin'.
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
I imagine they are somewhat damaged mentally, a lot probably would be considered sociopaths in our world. I always got the sense that what made the astartes special is they could take this kind of indoctrination and be better for it. If you look historically or even currently people who suffer extreme trauma abuse or witness violence at an early age usually don't cope very well, they usually aren't even good at being soldiers because something is fundamentally missing, look the nations that use child soldiers today.
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Post by: Kharn745
I personally find the death korps more appealing of the two. Mainly because it shows that when people give up their humanity, they can become weapons that the imperium needs, but not the one it deserves  , to keep everything together. It really shows how low the imperium of man has fallen and how much people are willing to give to hold onto whatever semblance of the pre-heresy imperium they still have.
82357
Post by: Ironclad Warlord
needs, but not the one it deserves
You got that from batman.
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Post by: Kharn745
Indeed I did, still got Night Lords on the brain
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Post by: lcmiracle
TiamatRoar wrote:Well, neither the Battle Sisters or the Death Korps have a real codex, so they can probably get by on being slightly less personalizable than the other factions.
That is if you ignore this
Not that you necessarily wrong anyways; that is the only official GW Sororitas Codex (I agree with you that the Sisters don't really have an GW codex afte 2E, they get a few WD publication), except for this:
tho this is technically labelled as a GW codex, but I'd just assume people ignore it either because it's a digital book/ BL publication, or it's really, eh, smelly. (I don't know, I don't own it.)
Anyways, It's my firm opinion that the Sororitas are a very difficult faction to (no, I refuse to call them a "race" damnit) write about; they are very ridged, to the point that little background was ever given to them that the Orderrs Militants (the Battle Orders) follows an organization any different then the others; I'd imagine their beliefs might have minor deviations due to the different martyrs they are founded after, but I can't see them to be that different.
I suppose the thing is that, after the major revamp of the 2E, the SM and the IG were made to suit personal customizations -- yes codex astartes is rigid, but how many damned chapter actually follows it word-for-word? Not even smurfs themselves can keep their own damned rules straight; the IG started out with so many variants (even in the RT days), they got a Catachan codex at 3E; while the SoB army, for some reason, seemed to have become part of these two codexes af 3E:
 
And SoB's background became very strongly worded, and being a "faithful zealot", it seems difficult to describe them any other way them the codex says.
Besides, why was Cain and Gaunt interesting? Well, they are more human then most of the 1 page characters on the codexex (and no, Chenkov is just a very stern IG commander who just doesn't like defeat, it's just him, not his faith), so for any character to be interesting fluff-wise, either they are really hilarious, or they are really colorful (in spirit, don't show me another picture of two sisters looking slightly differently, it's was metaphor damnit!)
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Post by: Troike
Ironclad Warlord wrote:I always got the sense that what made the astartes special is they could take this kind of indoctrination and be better for it.
Astartes don't really get the same sort of indoctrination, though. They will have had normal lives beforehand and are allowed more individuality, from what I understand. The Death Korps and the Sisters don't really get those. And "be better for it" is a bit relative, really. Maybe the Astartes are better in some social regards or something like that, but the Sisters and Kriegers are certainly good at war, and that's what they've been raised for. The indoctrination achieves what it sets out to do.
Also, this thread has got me thinking, DKoK and SoB would be a pretty good team-up, wouldn't it? They'd certainly get along well, I would've thought.
 lcmiracle wrote:tho this is technically labelled as a GW codex, but I'd just assume people ignore it either because it's a digital book/ BL publication, or it's really, eh, smelly. (I don't know, I don't own it.)
Wut? That is the official SoB codex, made by GW, and GW devs worked on it. It replaces the previous SoB codex, and is indeed a Sororitas codex. It's just sold by BL because they handle digital books, they sell digital versions of other codexes too.
lcmiracle wrote:Anyways, It's my firm opinion that the Sororitas are a very difficult faction to (no, I refuse to call them a "race" damnit) write about;
The codexes certainly do so pretty well, as did BL's James Swallow ( IMO). Dakka's own MWHistorian has also written some good fanfic about them that keeps to their more puritan characterisation.
lcmiracle wrote:I'd imagine their beliefs might have minor deviations due to the different martyrs they are founded after, but I can't see them to be that different.
You imagined correctly.
Variations on the theme, but all still share that SoB mindset.
lcmiracle wrote:the SoB army, for some reason, seemed to have become part of these two codexes af 3E:
They were only in the Witch Hunters codex, not the Daemon Hunters codex.
lcmiracle wrote:And SoB's background became very strongly worded, and being a "faithful zealot", it seems difficult to describe them any other way them the codex says.
And it's difficult to describe the Tyranids differently to "hungry bugs", or the World Eaters differently to "raving beserkers", isn't it? Some factions just have a more uniform charactrerisation, and that's fine. For me, it goes perfectly with 40K's grimdark, of course there'll be these extreme factions that all follow a cause so rigidly. That's not to say that they cannot be customised at all, they're just more distinct in their charactersation compared with some of the other factions.
lcmiracle wrote:Besides, why was Cain and Gaunt interesting? Well, they are more human then most of the 1 page characters
Why can't a loss of humanity be interesting too? What I find interesting about the SoB and Kriegers is how they've had their humanity stripped away from them so that they can be better soldiers in the Imperium's wars. What's also interesting is how they use this mindset in their battles, or how this mindset colours their interaction with other groups around them.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
People don't like to admit Codex: Adepta Sororitas exists because A) it's not in print (so they have to take a kindle or something with them to use it), and B) it's powerful enough to stand on its own without Allies and kick butt, even though it's only got Marine toys but less of them.
As to the OP's question, I will admit - I like the concept of them, I like the models (not great to begin with, but they have aged well), I like the look... but every attempt to make Sisters' characters interesting and individual has ended up with them diverging slightly or questioning their beliefs on some level. People tend to define each other by their hobbies and habits, and... well, Sororitas don't smoke, drink or play games, as far as the codex comments.
That said, I think that there is room for individual personalities in the Sisterhood. A mischievous Sister might prank her Sisters by moving the mannequin in the sacristy to the other side of the room (not really heresy as she's not defaced the robes, not really rebellious because she's not moved it out of the room, and as far as we know the Creed doesn't have a directional bias, but highly amusing when the Superior goes to get her vestments and realises they're facing the wrong way). A competitive Sister might challenge their Superior to regicide or some other approved wargame on a regular basis, or she might keep count of how many heretics she's purged in any given engagement and try to get the other Sisters to tally up. There is space for individual characters in the Sisterhood, you just have to realise that they all pray the same way and wear the same expression under their helmets.
Also, Troike, Icmiracle was being snarky at Tiamat who said we didn't have a codex 
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Post by: milkboy
Aye aye I second that!
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
 Furyou Miko wrote:People don't like to admit Codex: Adepta Sororitas exists because A) it's not in print (so they have to take a kindle or something with them to use it), and B) it's powerful enough to stand on its own without Allies and kick butt, even though it's only got Marine toys but less of them.
I never expected people to dislike it for that. As far as I know, all codices can shine, even the new Tyranid crapdex. There's at least a little cheese in every codex, but that does not make the codex as an entirety very good. Melta dominions or something was what I've heard was the cheddar of the SoB book.
Furyou Miko wrote:That said, I think that there is room for individual personalities in the Sisterhood. A mischievous Sister might prank her Sisters by moving the mannequin in the sacristy to the other side of the room (not really heresy as she's not defaced the robes, not really rebellious because she's not moved it out of the room, and as far as we know the Creed doesn't have a directional bias, but highly amusing when the Superior goes to get her vestments and realises they're facing the wrong way). A competitive Sister might challenge their Superior to regicide or some other approved wargame on a regular basis, or she might keep count of how many heretics she's purged in any given engagement and try to get the other Sisters to tally up. There is space for individual characters in the Sisterhood, you just have to realise that they all pray the same way and wear the same expression under their helmets.
Ehhhh... Yeah, no. I am not an expert on these things, but from what I have seen they both respect their superiors too much and are punished too harshly for any such pranks. And regicide? That would require free time, something that it is doubtful if they have (Even when travelling in the warp, they must be praying, they must tend to their gear, and so on...)
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Post by: Iron_Captain
I don't know that much about the Sisters, so I won't comment on them (I also think that a problem here is that we do not have much written about the SoB),
but I have to agree in that I find the DKoK extremely boring and very silly. They look cool, but beneath those awesome gas masks are the most boring things in all of 40k.
Grimdark is nice. Too much grimdark is silly.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:People don't like to admit Codex: Adepta Sororitas exists because A) it's not in print (so they have to take a kindle or something with them to use it), and B) it's powerful enough to stand on its own without Allies and kick butt, even though it's only got Marine toys but less of them.
I never expected people to dislike it for that. As far as I know, all codices can shine, even the new Tyranid crapdex. There's at least a little cheese in every codex, but that does not make the codex as an entirety very good. Melta dominions or something was what I've heard was the cheddar of the SoB book.
Furyou Miko wrote:That said, I think that there is room for individual personalities in the Sisterhood. A mischievous Sister might prank her Sisters by moving the mannequin in the sacristy to the other side of the room (not really heresy as she's not defaced the robes, not really rebellious because she's not moved it out of the room, and as far as we know the Creed doesn't have a directional bias, but highly amusing when the Superior goes to get her vestments and realises they're facing the wrong way). A competitive Sister might challenge their Superior to regicide or some other approved wargame on a regular basis, or she might keep count of how many heretics she's purged in any given engagement and try to get the other Sisters to tally up. There is space for individual characters in the Sisterhood, you just have to realise that they all pray the same way and wear the same expression under their helmets.
Ehhhh... Yeah, no. I am not an expert on these things, but from what I have seen they both respect their superiors too much and are punished too harshly for any such pranks. And regicide? That would require free time, something that it is doubtful if they have (Even when travelling in the warp, they must be praying, they must tend to their gear, and so on...)
Well, to be honest, I was grasping a little. ^^;
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Post by: Troike
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Ehhhh... Yeah, no. I am not an expert on these things, but from what I have seen they both respect their superiors too much and are punished too harshly for any such pranks.
The sort of person who is inclined to prank may not be selected to be a Sororitas in the first place, or would have it (perhaps literally) beaten out of them.
But I think that Furyou had the right idea with the "they all pray the same way and wear the same expression under their helmet" comment. There can absolutely be individual personalities within the Sisterhood, but it's all in the context of that overarching faith and zeal. For example, a Sister with a sense of humour might manifest it with a quote such as this, found in the WD codex: "Heretics crave the clensing fire of absolution. They need not fear, for we shall deliver it to them", or with the occasional clever remark. There's also quite a nice contrast in personality with the Orders of the Sacred Rose and Bloody Rose, them being even-tempered and aggressive respectively.
Swallow had them playing card games, now that I think of it. But nah, I agree with your thoughts on this one.
 Iron_Captain wrote:(I also think that a problem here is that we do not have much written about the SoB),
There's plenty of fluff that, together, gives us a very clear idea of how these people act, think and live. It's just that some of said fluff is more obscure.
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Post by: Psienesis
Ironclad Warlord wrote:I imagine they are somewhat damaged mentally, a lot probably would be considered sociopaths in our world. I always got the sense that what made the astartes special is they could take this kind of indoctrination and be better for it. If you look historically or even currently people who suffer extreme trauma abuse or witness violence at an early age usually don't cope very well, they usually aren't even good at being soldiers because something is fundamentally missing, look the nations that use child soldiers today.
Absolutely no one in the world of 40K would be at all relateable to someone from 21st century Earth. The nature of the 40K setting makes it more or less dehumanizing, especially in the factions represented on the tabletop. None of these people, not the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, the Space Marines, the Tau, the Sisters of Battle, none of them, would get on well with someone from our cultures. We are too radically different, and they would look at us as heretics for having dared to dream of bettering one's lot in life.
"Know Your Place", as the Imperial saying goes.
Troike wrote:The sort of person who is inclined to prank may not be selected to be a Sororitas in the first place, or would have it (perhaps literally) beaten out of them.
But I think that Furyou had the right idea with the "they all pray the same way and wear the same expression under their helmet" comment. There can absolutely be individual personalities within the Sisterhood, but it's all in the context of that overarching faith and zeal. For example, a Sister with a sense of humour might manifest it with a quote such as this, found in the WD codex: "Heretics crave the clensing fire of absolution. They need not fear, for we shall deliver it to them", or with the occasional clever remark. There's also quite a nice contrast in personality with the Orders of the Sacred Rose and Bloody Rose, them being even-tempered and aggressive respectively.
Maybe. I could see there being pranks amongst Battle Sisters of the same squad (since these are usually formed around a group of Novitiates taking vows at the same time, so that they will be in the same squad with the same women until either they are martyred or move to other Orders), maybe even one pranking their immediate Sister Superior, but probably not much outside of that structure, as these squads are something of a basic family unit. Of course, the Sister doing so would be in a lot of trouble should she be caught, but, then again, I am told that's half the fun. I could also imagine such things in the Orders Non-Militant, where they are not so constantly training for war.
That's another thing I think people forget about the Sororitas. The Battle-Sisters are just one aspect of the entire organization, just like Ordo Malleus is only one part of the overall Inquisition.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Well, the divisions of the Adepta Sororitas are rather more... formal than those of the Ordo Malleus.
Ordo Malleus is a title an Inquisitor takes. Sister Dialogous is a mission a Sister dedicates herself to.
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Post by: Psienesis
Well... not exactly, but also sort of the same.
I mean, Sisters can and do move between the Orders. You might take vows as a Sister Hospitaler, but then transfer into the Orders Pronatus twenty years later, or after ten years in the Hospitaler, you decide to take up a flamer and bolter and join the Orders Militant to directly combat the forces of Chaos, which is a sickness that infects the Imperium.
So we talk a lot about what it takes to be a Sister of Battle, as that's the table-top representation (in the main), but there are other Orders that are not so focused on the physical combat prowess of the individual. You might have a girl from a planet that has some sort of environmental condition (lets say harsh winds that bear silicate matter, causing hereditary eye issues... so she's really near-sighted) that makes her a *great* member of the Orders Dialoguous, but not so much with the bolter drill.
Or a Sister from an Order Militant is grievously wounded in a battle, but survives. They rebuild her with augmetics and such... but her new body is simply not a combat model, or its requirements make it a liability on the battlefield, so she transfers to the Orders Pronatus, because she can sit in a building and guard relics or study relics or whatever, she just can't be out there running, jumping, and kicking heretics in the face.
Inquisitors, too, can move between the Ordos as their interests change. A Inq might start out as a witch-hunter, tracking down all kinds of heretics and traitors.. and, over time, comes to really hate the daemons that often drive these recidivist cults, and so moves from Ordo Hereticus to Ordo Malleus to fight the daemon directly.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
That's a pretty good explanation of things, actually.
All I meant is that Inquisitors are Inquisitors - there's functionally no difference in the skills between a Malleus and a Hereticus inquisitor, except that the Malleus might know a bit more daemonology.
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Post by: Melissia
Yeah, the Malleus and Hereticus and etc distinctions are informal.
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Post by: Psienesis
Externally to the Imperium, of course. Internally to the Inquisition, well, things get a lot less clear.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Externally to the Imperium, an Inquisitor is an Inquisitor. Who cares what kind of silly pin or sigil he's wearing, he's freaking terrifying and you need to do exactly what she says.
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Post by: DOOMONYOU
Their personality is what got me interested in the Krieg forces to begin with. Playing them to that personality on the tabletop was interesting as well. An infantry advance (instead of castling up with current guard, or mechanized forces) thats objective was to bayonet charge whatever opponent i played.
then forgeworld changed their rules and i lost interest in this army. Hoping that the new IG codex release will mean that krieg get re-done in all their splendor.
But they are a love/hate army, purely on the fact of their throw away your troops mentality.
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Post by: Ashiraya
DOOMONYOU wrote:
But they are a love/hate army, purely on the fact of their throw away your troops mentality.
Oh, far from it. I am no fan of them for sure, but that has nothing to do with the throw away troops tactics.
Valhallans do that too, and I don't dislike them.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.
Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.
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Post by: Jollydevil
In my opinion Dkok are some of the most interesting troops out there.
What makes them interesting is their grit and unity. I like them because, especially compared to other guardsmen, you can tell that theyve seen some gak. Their tanks and vehicles are always muddy, their equipment is never clean, and nothings ever clean cut with them.
Yet, even through all this, they still hold an iron resolve.
Besides, do you really think that underneath the mask each one of them is really exactly the same? While they might be hardened from birth to show no emotion, Free will still exists. And you can bet that some of that free will would be shown on the chaos of the battlefield some way or another.
Also, love the profile pic, heres to a SM2.
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Post by: liquidjoshi
TiamatRoar wrote:They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.
Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.
You... realise the DKoK are based on WW1 troops, right?
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I'll explain what I mean. Most races in 40K vary a lot in personalities, in the race itself. There is a considerable difference between an Eldar and an Eldar, an Ork and an Ork, a Marine and a Marine, and so on, and so forth. Hell, even the Swarmlord shows surprising individuality when you consider its context and situation.
Battle Sisters and Death Korps, on the other hand, are trained to be fearless weapons from birth.
There is the same variety within the Sisters faction. One Sister may be very impulsive and full of hate against the blasphemer, while another can be very patient, thoughtful, and much more focused on her duty to protect the Imperium. One Sister may be smart and another stupid. One Sister may have a big sense of humor and another can be brooding. One Sister may be reclusive and another may be very expansive.
And when you add in the Order that are not militant, the variety becomes even bigger.
It really does not compare to the Dark “We are all paranoid secretive brooding bastards” Angels  .
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Post by: TiamatRoar
 liquidjoshi wrote:TiamatRoar wrote:They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.
Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.
You... realise the DKoK are based on WW1 troops, right?
I wasn't aware the troops from World War 1 had a death wish, were produced out of what basically amounts to cloning facilities, and were all so individual-less that they were often referred to by their ID number instead of by name.
(for those who don't get it, yes, in the end, the specifics of their looks and some of their battle tactics were based off of World War 1, but the personality was based off "faceless mook" tropes)
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Post by: Jollydevil
TiamatRoar wrote: liquidjoshi wrote:TiamatRoar wrote:They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.
Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.
You... realise the DKoK are based on WW1 troops, right?
I wasn't aware the troops from World War 1 had a death wish, were produced out of what basically amounts to cloning facilities, and were all so individual-less that they were often referred to by their ID number instead of by name.
(for those who don't get it, yes, in the end, the specifics of their looks and some of their battle tactics were based off of World War 1, but the personality was based off "faceless mook" tropes)
Theyre pretty much WW1.
Theyre not just based off it on looks. WW1 was nearly entirely consistent of death charges, one of the main components to Dkok battle strategy. WW1 also largely based upon trench and siege warfare, lo and behold another trait of the Death Korps. Gas masks. Trench coats. Massive artillery. More and more.
No, obviously WW1 troops were not cloned, or given serial numbers. Yes, theyre a dramatization. But what in 40K arent? The Death korps were based upon the troops of WW1. In order to work these values in, youve got to add backstory. What better way to justify stupidely massive charges than an unbreakable willingness to die? And what better way to symbolize the untold millions who died in said tactics, than making them all faceless?
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Jollydevil wrote:
Theyre pretty much WW1.
Theyre not just based off it on looks. WW1 was nearly entirely consistent of death charges, one of the main components to Dkok battle strategy. WW1 also largely based upon trench and siege warfare, lo and behold another trait of the Death Korps. Gas masks. Trench coats. Massive artillery. More and more.
No, obviously WW1 troops were not cloned, or given serial numbers. Yes, theyre a dramatization. But what in 40K arent? The Death korps were based upon the troops of WW1. In order to work these values in, youve got to add backstory. What better way to justify stupidely massive charges than an unbreakable willingness to die? And what better way to symbolize the untold millions who died in said tactics, than making them all faceless?
I suppose what we have here is a disagreement over what was the symptom and what was the cause (IE, are they based off of WW1 with the faceless mook tropes being added on to complement that, or are they based off of faceless mooks with the WW1 tropes being added for flavor. Or both at the same time).
Has GW or Forgeworld ever directly stated what the main or original inspiration/purpose/theme was? Or are you just speculating how their design process went? (I'll admit that I am, myself)
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Post by: Jollydevil
TiamatRoar wrote:Jollydevil wrote:
Theyre pretty much WW1.
Theyre not just based off it on looks. WW1 was nearly entirely consistent of death charges, one of the main components to Dkok battle strategy. WW1 also largely based upon trench and siege warfare, lo and behold another trait of the Death Korps. Gas masks. Trench coats. Massive artillery. More and more.
No, obviously WW1 troops were not cloned, or given serial numbers. Yes, theyre a dramatization. But what in 40K arent? The Death korps were based upon the troops of WW1. In order to work these values in, youve got to add backstory. What better way to justify stupidely massive charges than an unbreakable willingness to die? And what better way to symbolize the untold millions who died in said tactics, than making them all faceless?
I suppose what we have here is a disagreement over what was the symptom and what was the cause (IE, are they based off of WW1 with the faceless mook tropes being added on to complement that, or are they based off of faceless mooks with the WW1 tropes being added for flavor. Or both at the same time).
Has GW or Forgeworld ever directly stated what the main or original inspiration/purpose/theme was? Or are you just speculating how their design process went? (I'll admit that I am, myself)
Its the most plausible answer. Most other guard are based off some sort of other kind of soldier, and the Roles fit the inspiration perfectly.
Sure, GW hasnt down right come out and said theyre directly based on WW1 troops, but the similarities are too common to be coincidence.
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Post by: ansacs
If you haven't already read it I highly recommend Dead Men Walking. It has a very nice look into a normal IoM citizen who fights side by side with the DKoK.
The following could be considered spoilers but honestly you can tell where the war will go in 10 pages it is the journey that is interesting.
Honestly the DKoK are so alien to us that their interactions mean nothing. It is like two insects interacting. They may say volumes with their leg movements but we will never understand it. The real interesting part for us is the interaction of the DKoK with the rest of humanity. Commissars find their eerie and are there to reign them back so they don't over commit rather than pushing them forward like for normal IG. Other IG will flatout refuse to work with them and some are even scared of them.
All this is not helped by the fact that there is essentially 1 novel about them that can show any level of personal detail and it's focus wasn't even a DKoK soldier.
In many ways I like them because of their spartan nature and training (you may notice that the trials, etc. are very similar) and their deep beliefs. A cadian or mordian may be disciplined but will he shoot himself in the head if his officer commands it? The DKoK soldier will and not because he is incapable of saying no, doesn't value his life (his life is valued as his lasgun is as a resource of the emperor), or even that he is some faceless mook with no emotions. He does it because he must repent for the sins of his planet and the emperor's voice told him this is how to do it. When he shoots himself he will want to shoot himself and feel pride at doing it. DKoK are not robots they are highly motivated soldiers that just happen to be conditioned in a way that boggles the our minds because we were conditioned otherwise.
The SoB also appear to have much more attitude than you might give them credit. You don't make snappy puns like flourish in their material without a pretty interesting personality. That personality does seem to be flamer wielding psychopath fanatic based but that doesn't mean that she doesn't sing the best hymns to the emperor ever heard or carve statues of the emperor out of charred tyranid carapace. It just means that they all share a common...interest...
These characters could be written with a great deal of personality ad complexity. However it all needs to be nuanced and the writer that could do it would be incredibly skilled. Probably why these characters are normally not portrayed as leads in BL as the skill level of the authors is not exactly award winning.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Ansacs, have you read Down Amongst the Dead Men? Its by the same author, and its from the point of view of Kriegsmen, excellent read, too.
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Post by: Sparkadia
Personally, I just love the Kreig aesthetic and hate the standard Cadian one.
I'm a horrible lore-butcher though, and like to give my Kreigsman somewhat repressed and restrained personalities. Though indoctrinated, brainwashed and cold, they are still humans.
I bet if you had Kreig Football Team1 and Kreig Football Team 2, they would probably have a preference, as an example. Even if the teams were the same, Kreigers may argue which is better.
But hey, YMMV. Your 40K might be different to mine. I like to think that my DKoK might be a slightly less crazy breed and be essentially more suicidal guardsmen in really badass uniforms.
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Post by: MajorStoffer
On the subject of the Korps, IA12 made an effort to give them some more individual personality without breaking the established trend.
In short, they're motivated by a strong sense of guilt; the failure of their home world and subsequent nuclear apocalypse. As such, the highest honour for a Kriegsmen is to be given a name, drawn from the last pre-war census on Krieg. They basically fight for the memory of everyone that was lost, to the point where the only true name they have is drawn from the casualties of a bygone mistake of apocalyptic proportions.
They're faceless, heavily indoctrinated, and have been alluded to being artificially produced in some capacity/volume, but they remain, in some form, human underneath that. Humans which exist solely for the reality of the 41st millenium, but little bursts of individuality and character show up amongst those who survive battle to battle, such as Colonel Torbec, who's appeared, at least in passing, in every FW book to reference the Korps, who follows the mold of many WW1 leaders of leading from the front, charging headlong into hell and holding out with a small band of ne'er do wells deep behind enemy lines.
They aren't, say, Band of Brothers, but they certainly aren't lacking in character as an organization, or are lacking in individuals of note.
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Post by: ansacs
Bobthehero wrote:Ansacs, have you read Down Amongst the Dead Men? Its by the same author, and its from the point of view of Kriegsmen, excellent read, too.
I have not. I didn't even realize... Well there goes my few remaining sleep hours. 
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Post by: Bobthehero
Its a short story, so you'll be able to read it and sleep, woohoooo.
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Post by: BrianDavion
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:People don't like to admit Codex: Adepta Sororitas exists because A) it's not in print (so they have to take a kindle or something with them to use it), and B) it's powerful enough to stand on its own without Allies and kick butt, even though it's only got Marine toys but less of them.
I never expected people to dislike it for that. As far as I know, all codices can shine, even the new Tyranid crapdex. There's at least a little cheese in every codex, but that does not make the codex as an entirety very good. Melta dominions or something was what I've heard was the cheddar of the SoB book.
Furyou Miko wrote:That said, I think that there is room for individual personalities in the Sisterhood. A mischievous Sister might prank her Sisters by moving the mannequin in the sacristy to the other side of the room (not really heresy as she's not defaced the robes, not really rebellious because she's not moved it out of the room, and as far as we know the Creed doesn't have a directional bias, but highly amusing when the Superior goes to get her vestments and realises they're facing the wrong way). A competitive Sister might challenge their Superior to regicide or some other approved wargame on a regular basis, or she might keep count of how many heretics she's purged in any given engagement and try to get the other Sisters to tally up. There is space for individual characters in the Sisterhood, you just have to realise that they all pray the same way and wear the same expression under their helmets.
Ehhhh... Yeah, no. I am not an expert on these things, but from what I have seen they both respect their superiors too much and are punished too harshly for any such pranks. And regicide? That would require free time, something that it is doubtful if they have (Even when travelling in the warp, they must be praying, they must tend to their gear, and so on...)
I suspect they do have some free time, and Regicide as a stragety game is proably an enchouraged passtime
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Post by: tommse
There´s this BL book called "Dead Man Walkin" about DKOK fighting against Necrons and a lot is written out of the perspective of the civilians that oftentimes hardly can tell the difference between the two because both behave like automatons.
Noone has a personality and that is an interesting perk on its own. The fatalistic deathwish that is so different to our own modern, western culture is discribed really well in here, especially when there´s the scene where one of the DKOK grenadiers takes off his facemask and reveals the face of a 19 year old boy with dead eyes was sending shivers down my spine.
There really is an appeal to DKOK but not really in how the individuals behave.
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Post by: bu11etmagn3tt
I collect Dkok, and use it as reg guard, and many might think they are dull in character. Far from it though! Read dead men walking, and of course the fw book they are in.... however, here is some background....
Before the Fall:The world known as Krieg is shrouded in rumor and dark myth, much of its dreadful history has been obscured and lost. The wilderness of ruined cities that span this blasted poison choked world, point to krieg once having been a thriving hive-world, a trading and manufacturing center populated by billions upon billions. The rulers of this world - the council of Autocrats, bloated with wealth and corrupt with indolence, petty vendetta and vice became increasingly insular and debauched. The Autocrats' paranoia over outside threat that could shatter their dictorial rule caused them to plough vast resources into strengthening the defenses of their hive cities, building private armies and further surrounding their world with an d ring of steel. Worse, the Autocrats grew to resent the Administratum on 'their' world and in particular the heavy tithes levied on them on them by the Departmento Munitorium taking resources they proclaimed were vital to their own defense. The citizens of Krieg were sadly ignorant of these slowly spiraling events and terrible ruin the misrule of their leaders was about to be brought down on them.REVOLT!:For Krieg, the end came in the year 433.M40 when the High Autocrat of Krieg largest hive, the council chairman and the de-facto planetary governor, (a man so hated that his name has been purged from all records), declared a planetary wide martial law and seceded his world from the Imperium. Civil war had come suddenly and violently on Krieg. Much of the world had been quickly capulated to the rebel's power. After the rebel's initial attacks only hive Ferrograd remained under loyalist control, because the 83rd Krieg imperial guard regiment, under the command of Colonel Jurten, was in the final stages of being mustered at FerrogradIn response to the revolt, Colonel Jurten moved quickly to take control of the hive city from its vacillating rulers in a military coup. With the veteran Colonel at its helm, Ferrograd rapidly became the rallying point for the remaining loyalist factions.But the situations for the loyalist was dire; the rebel forces had numbered in millions and Ferrograd was soon cut off and besieged. To make matters worse, the loyalists were on their own; the planetary defenses were under the traitors, control, and strong enough that a full scale fleet action would be required to breach them. Jurten had been informed in no uncertain terms that a fleet powerful enough to invade Krieg was simple not available. Colonel Jurten's orders were to resist with all means at his disposal, to engage the enemy, to punish their treachery and emerge victorious - whatever the cost. So faced with the horrific odds stacked against him, Jurten came to the fateful decision that the world Krieg would belong to the Emperor, or it would belong to no one...Deep below Hive Ferrograd was a secret Adeptus Mechanicus storage facility, and Colonel Jurten with his loyal Adeptus Mechanicus ally, Archmagos Greel, moved to unlock the facility and unleash the forbidden ancient weapons within. Whilst outside the siege ground on, within Ferrograd's walls the defenders laboured a desperate plan.The Purging:On the feast of the Emperors Ascension Jurten unleashed his long planned counter-attack. Scores of long range missiles roared forth from the heart of Ferrograd. The traitors helplessly watched their augers asJurten's rockets arced high into the planet's stratosphere before detonating in blooms of blinding light, and unleashing tonnes of lethal isotopes which blanketed the entire world in deadly fallout. For days the atmosphere became a sea of nuclear fire. Under Jurtens attack the planet's eco-system failed. The air was poisoned and Kriegs climate collapsed into storms that spanned continents. The raging fires blocked out the sun and a nuclear winter engulfed Krieg. As a results untold billions died. Those that did not perish took to thier fallout shelters and began a new subterranean existence. To future generations who would live terrible consequences of the atomic attack, Jurten's plan would come to be known as the 'purging'. Krieg might have been wrecked, but the purging evened up the odds. The loyalist had been well prepared for the attack, and the traitors would suffer terribly. But the civil war would go on...Krieg's nightmare had only just begun. To the Imperial authorities Krieg was a prize no longer worth saving, its fate a red mark in the ledgers of the Administratum. Krieg became a man-made death-world trapped in the freezing grip of a radioactive nuclear winter. The war between the secessionist and loyalist developed into devolved into a pitiless bloody war of attrition across a planet where every inch of ground grew to be littered with trench work, rusting razor wire and shell craters, in a deadly landscape where drifting fallout ash shrouded the numberless bones of the unburied dead.It is doubtful that the full truth of those long and terrible centuries of the civil war will ever be known. Jurten finally perished, how, it is not recorded, but the descendants of those that followed him but the descendants of those that followed him lived on, and became as fearless as they were callous. War was all they would ever know, men were raised from birth to fight. The men that advanced great-coated and vapor-masked through the rad wasteland blasted cities became known as the Death Korps. They existed only to endure a hellish planetary surface, in order to do their duty and to kill in the Emperor's name. Through fifteen generations of terrible bloody attrition, the loyalist slowly re-took their blasted world in the name of the Emperor, trench-by-trench and tunnel-by-tunnel with bayonet, brutality and when needed atomic fire. After more than 500 years of the most nightmarish warfare imaginable and an incalculable price paid in human life and suffering Krieg belong to the Death Korps.
1
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Post by: jareddm
For me the best representation of DkoK is in their interactions with other Imperial forces.
Take this short story of of a Krieg medic being merged into another non-Krieg regiment. The story was originally written to help a player get into character for a game of Only War.
You are a Death Korps Medic. You were the second most valuable item in your squad. The first most valuable item was a plasma gun. Every member of the squad was trained to operate the plasma gun in case the primary operator was killed. It was deemed inefficient to train every member of the squad to perform the duties of a medicae. Arguably, therefore, you were the most valuable member of the squad, but the plasma gun had seen decades of service. You had not.
You have been trained as a field medic since the age of 12. You performed your first field amputation eight days after beginning training. The procedure was not successful. Your equipment is generic and has been replaced many, many times. You no longer distinguish between your equipment and your body, as both are required for your purpose.
In your former squad, all members knew your value, and were trained to assist and protect you. Your new squad is less efficient. It has conflicting doctrines. Orders are given in unfamiliar tones and with unfamiliar style. You are struggling to adapt, but you will not fail. The squad needs you. You can protect them. You can save them to fight again. If they die, it is your duty to ensure, in the absence of a Quartermaster, that their gear is distributed or stored properly and that the body is placed where it will not decay and spread contaminated air, give comfort to the enemy, or obstruct the operations of the Imperial Guard. You sometimes have difficulty distinguishing between the living and the dead.
Sometimes, the members of your new squad do strange things. They spend hours talking to each other. You have to listen to make sure they are not giving you orders or conveying vital information without you knowing it. You do not want to appear weak. Sometimes, they make strange coughing sounds. You have asked them about this. They do not understand what you mean, and then they cough again, showing their teeth and grinning like a skull. You suspect it is endemic, possibly a sign of weakness of mind. You have been warned to watch for signs of weakness of mind. You have tested them for lung-rot and bore-fly larvae in case.
Sometimes, it seems as though the squad does not understand your duty. You cannot waste valuable medicine on a soldier who can never make a full recovery to fighting strength. His pain is a weakness of the mind. His screams are a weakness of the mind. You can ignore them. Your squad cannot. They are weak. They do not understand. Your skills are for those who can be saved. It is a waste of ammunition to end the life of the badly wounded. It is a waste of medicine to heal them. Your new squad does not understand.
Your new squad is inefficient. They disagree with each other. Intolerable weakness. Sometimes, they disagree with the orders the Sergeant gives them. Unthinkable. You were prepared to strip the corpse of the soldier who disagreed with the Sergeant, but the Sergeant did not execute him. You do not understand. Disobedience is death. At the age of ten you watched them line up and execute a platoon for failing to obey the precise letter of their orders. You do not understand how the Imperial Guard functions if orders can be questioned.
Your new squad fears death. They prefer to risk their missions rather than risk danger. You have seen situations where acceptable losses (up to 20% of the squad) would have lead to a much more favourable outcome. Weakness of mind.
The equipment of your squad is unorthodox. They have extraneous items. Books that are not regimental issue. Items of decoration. Weapons that are not regimental issue. Modified uniforms. Facial hair. Weakness. Unorthodoxy. It makes sorting the equipment of the dead difficult. Sometimes, members of your squad object to you removing certain items from corpses. You do not understand this. A dead soldier has no need for non-regimental gear, just as he has no need for the items and weapons issued to him by the Quartermaster.
Your sometimes wonder if you have been placed in a squad of raw recruits. They fear the sight of the dead. They fear the enemy. The fear death. They are undisciplined. They are inefficient. They are weak. You cannot make them stronger; you can only stop them from failing. You must do your duty.
Your squad is weak. One solider asked for pain relief as you stitched a minor facial wound. You did not understand. Had he received some serious injury that had evaded your notice? Did he not understand that all medical reagents are to be prized and used only when required?
He complained that your stitching would mark his face. You did not understand why he was telling you this. Scarring is part of the healing process. The solider did not want to be disfigured, it was explained to you. You do not understand why he feared a minor scar. You explained that it would in no way impede his combat effectiveness. He did not cease his complaints for several days. Intolerable weakness.
Your squad asks strange questions that are not orders but require a response. The squad was talking about their home worlds. You were not listening. It was not important. You were inspecting the hive-vault for hidden sniping positions while recumbent. One of your squad members asked you about Krieg.
You told her.
She did not ask you again. The squad members did not continue talking. Entirely acceptable. Some showed signs of fear. Entirely unacceptable.
The Sergeant dismissed you at camp. He said you were to report at dawn. You assumed that he or another officer would conduct training and inspections until your appointed sleep cycle. No officer appeared. You stood in the empty barracks and waited.
Another member of your squad told you to come with them to the regimental mess hall. The soldiers eat here in great numbers. The food is prepared nearby, not packaged and sealed. It was disgustingly flavourful. You prefer your rations. You still have a few Krieg rations in your kit. You are saving them for the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension.
The mess was disorganized. There was so much noise. You found a corner and ate alone.
You went back to the barracks to wait. The squad arrived eventually and you were told to prepare for the sleep cycle. You had your kit stowed and cleaned well before anyone else. Shirkers. Unorganized. Unacceptable.
The sleep cycle here is too long. After precisely four hours you woke up. The rest of the squad was not awake. There were no lights. You were confused. You stared at the ceiling until the Sergeant arrived two and a half hours later.
Staring at the ceiling of the barracks for two and a half hours every sleep cycle is not efficient. You do not want to wake your squad. They are weak. They require more rest than you do.
You have memorized every Imperial feast day your old regiment celebrated. You spent two nights memorizing the feast days of your new regiment. Some dates conflict. You spent several more nights attempting to combine the two without conflict.
Sometimes, you take out the knucklebones and look at them. They are from your first kill. They are polished brown and yellow now. They are very small. You were ten years old when you shot him. He was a deserter from your training regiment. He ran from the tunnel-warren and to the surface one night. Your squad was ordered to hunt him down. You remember his serial number (104-2205-P), but you do not remember what he looked like. The knucklebones were much bigger when the Training Officer handed them to you. Perhaps they have been worn down, even though you have kept them safe in a cotton bag in your kit.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Impressive!
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Post by: Peregrine
DOOMONYOU wrote:Their personality is what got me interested in the Krieg forces to begin with. Playing them to that personality on the tabletop was interesting as well. An infantry advance (instead of castling up with current guard, or mechanized forces) thats objective was to bayonet charge whatever opponent i played.
then forgeworld changed their rules and i lost interest in this army.
I don't really know why you'd say that. Every version of the FW rules has been all about mass bayonet charges. The 4th/5th-edition siege list was defined by WS 4 melee blobs with pistol + CCW on every model and powerfists on the sergeants. The 6th edition assault brigade emphasizes grenadiers (short-range elite shooting) and endless waves of respawning WS 4 guardsmen with melee-focused orders to boost them and awesome death riders to power lance whole marine armies off the table. Even the 6th edition siege list update, as sadly limited as it is, still has WS 4 as one of the defining attributes compared to codex IG.
jareddm wrote: It is a waste of ammunition to end the life of the badly wounded.
Just a slight nitpick here: the DKoK attach almost religious significance to the quartermaster giving an honorable field execution to a dying guardsman who has done all he can in service of the Emperor. Other than that, very well done.
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Post by: DOOMONYOU
 Peregrine wrote:DOOMONYOU wrote:Their personality is what got me interested in the Krieg forces to begin with. Playing them to that personality on the tabletop was interesting as well. An infantry advance (instead of castling up with current guard, or mechanized forces) thats objective was to bayonet charge whatever opponent i played.
then forgeworld changed their rules and i lost interest in this army.
I don't really know why you'd say that. Every version of the FW rules has been all about mass bayonet charges. The 4th/5th-edition siege list was defined by WS 4 melee blobs with pistol + CCW on every model and powerfists on the sergeants. The 6th edition assault brigade emphasizes grenadiers (short-range elite shooting) and endless waves of respawning WS 4 guardsmen with melee-focused orders to boost them and awesome death riders to power lance whole marine armies off the table. Even the 6th edition siege list update, as sadly limited as it is, still has WS 4 as one of the defining attributes compared to codex IG.
jareddm wrote: It is a waste of ammunition to end the life of the badly wounded.
Just a slight nitpick here: the DKoK attach almost religious significance to the quartermaster giving an honorable field execution to a dying guardsman who has done all he can in service of the Emperor. Other than that, very well done.
the big rule change that put me off was the loss of stubborn, and the recycling infantry squads. The recycling infantry squads is seen as too OP in my flgs. Then the re-release of the seige list was basically a copy-paste job from the assault brigade. The simple fact you stated 6th ed and grenadiers (short range shooting) is evident to the move away from melee, the grenadiers actually lost an additional attack in close combat by the removal of their hotshot laspistol, and the sergeants are limited on their power weapons too.
Anyways I don't want to derail this thread into a krieg thread.
I was put off bayonet charges by forgeworlds 6th ed changes, but their fluff of artillery barrages still can be played. No other army can put out the amount of pie plates as a death Korps seige army.
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Post by: Spetulhu
jareddm wrote:
Your new squad fears death. They prefer to risk their missions rather than risk danger. You have seen situations where acceptable losses (up to 20% of the squad) would have lead to a much more favourable outcome. Weakness of mind.
I did like the write-up, but this kind of startled me. Surely a Krieg soldier would consider even 100% losses acceptable if the mission was carried out?
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Post by: Ashiraya
Spetulhu wrote:jareddm wrote:
Your new squad fears death. They prefer to risk their missions rather than risk danger. You have seen situations where acceptable losses (up to 20% of the squad) would have lead to a much more favourable outcome. Weakness of mind.
I did like the write-up, but this kind of startled me. Surely a Krieg soldier would consider even 100% losses acceptable if the mission was carried out?
If the losses were as low as 20%, the Kriegsmen would probably wonder if the mission actually was done properly.
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Post by: Sparks_Havelock
TiamatRoar wrote:Has GW or Forgeworld ever directly stated what the main or original inspiration/purpose/theme was? Or are you just speculating how their design process went? (I'll admit that I am, myself)
Everything to do with the Death Korps is copied from or inspired by the Great War. This is most notably obvious with their clothing and equipment - French army greatcoat, British army puttee's, German stalhelm with a flute inspired by the French Adrian helmet - even the colour tab on the collar of the greatcoat, used to identify units in battle, comes from the Belgian army. The Grenadiers have armour inspired by German trench-armour whilst Krieg Engineers have armour inspired by a type made for the Royal Engineers of the British Army. That's just off the top of my head - if you wanted to spend the time you could match every bit of their uniform and equipment to a Great war equivalent.
Even their psychology is inspired by the period, with the general young age of Korpsmen matching the fervently patriotic youths who, heavily indoctrinated by propaganda, wanted to sign up and fight for 'King & Country' during the Great War - this is also where the Death Korps zealotry comes from. The armies involved in the Great War were generally very well disciplined whilst the grim demeanour and fatalistic sense of humour comes from the men of the various armies who needed something to get through each day - a laugh is better than a sob. They spent each day surrounded by death and suffering, being battered by artillery, strafed & bombed by aircraft, ever aware of the presence of enemy marksmen, waiting on a hair trigger for the enemy assault or to be ordered into the attack, whilst living in horrific conditions and eating army rations (often cold out of a can) - it's easy to see where the Death Korps mentality comes from. When you look at the way the Death Korps view each soldier as a resource to be expended, the way they just have a number instead of a name, how their officers are not fussed about ordering them into the attack, well you just have to remember that to the High Command of the various armies the soldiers were just a resource with which to defeat the enemy. Because the Generals were so far away from the horror the amount of dead just became another number, depleting their resources.
I would go on to talk about the way the Death Korps fights but the above will do for now.
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Post by: Bobthehero
DOOMONYOU wrote:The simple fact you stated 6th ed and grenadiers (short range shooting) is evident to the move away from melee, the grenadiers actually lost an additional attack in close combat by the removal of their hotshot laspistol,
They never had them to begin with, even when they were 18 points a model
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Post by: Jdredsox
 Sparks_Havelock wrote: well you just have to remember that to the High Command of the various armies the soldiers were just a resource with which to defeat the enemy. Because the Generals were so far away from the horror the amount of dead just became another number, depleting their resources.
I would go on to talk about the way the Death Korps fights but the above will do for now.
I disagree regarding the high command criticism as they were just doing the best they could in a completely new type of war of which no one had any experience before.
With regards to the DKoK, I agree they are based on WW1 forces, although more like WW1 on steroids.
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Post by: Sparks_Havelock
It's more that the further you are from what's happening, the less association you may have with the realities of the situation. There's a big difference between picking up a piece of paper and reading a list of dead mens names whilst 'safe' in a building 30-50 miles from the front lines and actually being there, seeing the corpses on the ground, hearing the screams of the wounded and so on. That, in my eyes, is where the Death Korps lack of care for the number of dead/wounded comes from.
But yes, Great War on steroids is quite a good way of putting it.
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Post by: DOOMONYOU
Bobthehero wrote:DOOMONYOU wrote:The simple fact you stated 6th ed and grenadiers (short range shooting) is evident to the move away from melee, the grenadiers actually lost an additional attack in close combat by the removal of their hotshot laspistol,
They never had them to begin with, even when they were 18 points a model
you right. I was doing it from memory. It was the command squads that lost the ability to swap lasguns to laspistols for veterans, I used grenadier models. my bad.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Bobthehero wrote:There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
It was the Death Korps that I was specifically referring to. I never mentioned Cadians. I am asking about Korpsman-to-Korpsman differences.
Ultramarines vary significantly from what I have seen, such as the Ultramarines novels. In contrast, no DKoK fluff I've read gives me the impression of variety.
I always imagined Kriegsmen to be too professional to show their emotions on the battlefield or even while on duty in the camp etc.
However, I assume that when they're out of their uniforms, with their families etc. they are all very different.
As for Sisters of Battle I imagine it's the same thing, even Space Marines have a bit of a brotherly jibe going on between them so why wouldn't the Sisters of Battle? They're basically female Black Templars with flamers.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 BrotherOfBone wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote: Bobthehero wrote:There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
It was the Death Korps that I was specifically referring to. I never mentioned Cadians. I am asking about Korpsman-to-Korpsman differences.
Ultramarines vary significantly from what I have seen, such as the Ultramarines novels. In contrast, no DKoK fluff I've read gives me the impression of variety.
I always imagined Kriegsmen to be too professional to show their emotions on the battlefield or even while on duty in the camp etc.
However, I assume that when they're out of their uniforms, with their families etc. they are all very different.
As for Sisters of Battle I imagine it's the same thing, even Space Marines have a bit of a brotherly jibe going on between them so why wouldn't the Sisters of Battle? They're basically female Black Templars with flamers.
The Krieg and Sisters fans will hang you for that post.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
BrotherHaraldus wrote: BrotherOfBone wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote: Bobthehero wrote:There's considerable difference between a Kriegsman and a Cadian, by the way.
You could probably add the Ultramarines in your post, as all they do is fervently follow the Codex Astartes.
The Korps is just a regiment in all of the IG regiment, it just so happens its the one without much of a personality.
It was the Death Korps that I was specifically referring to. I never mentioned Cadians. I am asking about Korpsman-to-Korpsman differences.
Ultramarines vary significantly from what I have seen, such as the Ultramarines novels. In contrast, no DKoK fluff I've read gives me the impression of variety.
I always imagined Kriegsmen to be too professional to show their emotions on the battlefield or even while on duty in the camp etc.
However, I assume that when they're out of their uniforms, with their families etc. they are all very different.
As for Sisters of Battle I imagine it's the same thing, even Space Marines have a bit of a brotherly jibe going on between them so why wouldn't the Sisters of Battle? They're basically female Black Templars with flamers.
The Krieg and Sisters fans will hang you for that post.
Because their armies aren't the emotionless bastards/bastardesses they wanted them to be?
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Post by: Jdredsox
Basically Sisters of Battle are Terminators without the Time Displacement travel and turning up naked everywhere.
No emotions. One goal. Lots of weapons. And expensive stunt scenes.
They might learn to develop, or mimic, some sort of emotions but really they will just pursue their goal with the singleminded ness of a machine.
I find this a shame as there aren't many strong females in 40k and it feels like an opportunity missed.
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Post by: Melissia
There's nothing suggesting Sisters have no emotions.
Rather, they are trained to be in as complete control of themselves as possible in spite of experiencing emotions, just like modern soldiers are.
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Post by: Jollydevil
Jdredsox wrote:Basically Sisters of Battle are Terminators without the Time Displacement travel and turning up naked everywhere.
No emotions. One goal. Lots of weapons. And expensive stunt scenes.
They might learn to develop, or mimic, some sort of emotions but really they will just pursue their goal with the singleminded ness of a machine.
I find this a shame as there aren't many strong females in 40k and it feels like an opportunity missed.
"No strong females"
Hi, my name is the eldar, and i will be your answer for this evening.
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Post by: Troike
BrotherOfBone wrote:As for Sisters of Battle I imagine it's the same thing, even Space Marines have a bit of a brotherly jibe going on between them so why wouldn't the Sisters of Battle?
I would think so too, about the same as what you've described with the Marines. Nothing too excessive, but a little bit of friendly camaraderie and such here and there.
Actually, the BT are basically male SoBs with genetic enhancements. The SoB came first. 
BrotherOfBone wrote:Because their armies aren't the emotionless bastards/bastardesses they wanted them to be?
I don't think that any SoB fans have claimed that the Sisters are emotionless, nor want this to be the case, nor has the fluff ever said this either. What's been argued is that the Sisters are very controlled and disciplined, befitting their fluff which describes them having a very controlled lifestyle and massive faith/dedication. They're very focused on what they do, but they're still people. As I've been saying recently, I think that James Swallow gets a good balance here. Above all else, they are the soldiers of the Imperial Creed, but they can also have their own personalities and interactions with each other.
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Post by: Melissia
Yep, Sisters existed an edition before Black Templars did. They don't really do the Crusader thing as well as Sisters, either.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
Meh, we're about as crusadery-y as Space Marines get in that we actually perform Crusades.
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Post by: Melissia
Well, at least BT's go on crusades without being ordered on them anyway.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
 Melissia wrote:Well, at least BT's go on crusades without being ordered on them anyway.
I can feel your jealousy
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Post by: Melissia
Actually I was commenting about how most SM chapters only go on crusades whenever they're ordered to because they fethed up (IE, Penitent Crusades). BTs have more initiative than that, which is commendable.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
Melissia wrote:Actually I was commenting about how most SM chapters only go on crusades whenever they're ordered to because they fethed up (IE, Penitent Crusades). BTs have more initiative than that, which is commendable.
Ah, thought you were talking about SoB. And, in fairness it's not like Black Templars take to sitting around in their fortress monastery waiting to be attacked, we go out and do stuff! YAY
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Post by: Melissia
Yeah. I like BTs more than I like most chapters. Not as much as I like BA, Salamanders, or SWs, but still. They have flavor and they're not boring at least.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
Melissia wrote:Yeah. I like BTs more than I like most chapters. Not as much as I like BA, Salamanders, or SWs, but still. They have flavor and they're not boring at least.
It sucks that we took a huge hit in the 6th edition codex.
BT also seem to have pretty blank personalities, indeed most monastic marines do.
GROAH. WE LIKE THE EMPRAH AND STUHF
*Hack 'n' slash*
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Post by: Melissia
Dunno, I think they can have personality.
"Having personality" just can't be defined as "being more like Space Wolves", which seems to be Sandy Mitchel's definition.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
Melissia wrote:Dunno, I think they can have personality.
"Having personality" just can't be defined as "being more like Space Wolves", which seems to be Sandy Mitchel's definition.
Those are the guys who like to uhh.
Something about... Cats?
Cat talismans
Thundercats (geddit)
GOOD JOB KELLY
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Post by: Ashiraya
*Throws Ultramarines at Melly*
Melissia wrote:Yep, Sisters existed an edition before Black Templars did. They don't really do the Crusader thing as well as Sisters, either.
Actually, Black Templars have the Crusader special rule, while SoB don't!
Not relevant to anything but a fun anecdote.
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Post by: Melissia
Of course they do. With Sisters it's assumed by default, while with BTs they have to explicitly express it.
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Post by: Jdredsox
Jollydevil wrote:Jdredsox wrote:Basically Sisters of Battle are Terminators without the Time Displacement travel and turning up naked everywhere.
No emotions. One goal. Lots of weapons. And expensive stunt scenes.
They might learn to develop, or mimic, some sort of emotions but really they will just pursue their goal with the singleminded ness of a machine.
I find this a shame as there aren't many strong females in 40k and it feels like an opportunity missed.
"No strong females"
Hi, my name is the eldar, and i will be your answer for this evening.
Not none, just not many .
I was actually thinking of my Dark Eldar army but it makes sense for Eldar to have a strong female contingent as well. I will keep a lookout for it when I start to build an eldar attachment.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
I think the kits are something like 60/40 male/female for Craftworld Eldar, and 40/60 male/female for Dark Eldar.
Because of course, Psychic Ninja Space Elves are manly, while BDSM Ninja Space Elves are girly.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Furyou Miko wrote:I think the kits are something like 60/40 male/female for Craftworld Eldar, and 40/60 male/female for Dark Eldar.
Because of course, Psychic Ninja Space Elves are manly, while BDSM Ninja Space Elves are girly.
No, assuming we are talking Guardians (The only kit with both genders) it is 80/20 male/female.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Jdredsox wrote:Basically Sisters of Battle are Terminators without the Time Displacement travel and turning up naked everywhere.
No emotions. One goal. Lots of weapons. And expensive stunt scenes.
They might learn to develop, or mimic, some sort of emotions but really they will just pursue their goal with the singleminded ness of a machine.
Uh ? Where did you get that strange idea from ?
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Post by: Jollydevil
Jdredsox wrote:Jollydevil wrote:Jdredsox wrote:Basically Sisters of Battle are Terminators without the Time Displacement travel and turning up naked everywhere.
No emotions. One goal. Lots of weapons. And expensive stunt scenes.
They might learn to develop, or mimic, some sort of emotions but really they will just pursue their goal with the singleminded ness of a machine.
I find this a shame as there aren't many strong females in 40k and it feels like an opportunity missed.
"No strong females"
Hi, my name is the eldar, and i will be your answer for this evening.
Not none, just not many .
I was actually thinking of my Dark Eldar army but it makes sense for Eldar to have a strong female contingent as well. I will keep a lookout for it when I start to build an eldar attachment.
Meh, I was thinking of both. Ive played both, and yes, they've both got very strong female counterparts to the males.
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
Rather, they are trained to be in as complete control of themselves as possible in spite of experiencing emotions, just like modern soldiers are.
Does anyone in 40k have a developed personality as we would see it?
Also if your familiar with military training its intended to erase your old personality, all military training is designed to do this past, present, American, Russian, Japanese, personality and feelings are liability in war, they don't want overly charged personalities that might get pissed and kill everyone or overwhelmed by what they see and crumble. Its a question of degree though, 40k training and indoctrination overshadows what we see in even the most despotic regimes.
Oh and something I thought of. You have to wonder if the Kiegsmen or SOB are that effective, I mean is an army of martyrdom seeking/suicidal freaks really that effective.
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Post by: Jollydevil
Ironclad Warlord wrote:Rather, they are trained to be in as complete control of themselves as possible in spite of experiencing emotions, just like modern soldiers are.
Does anyone in 40k have a developed personality as we would see it?
Also if your familiar with military training its intended to erase your old personality, all military training is designed to do this past, present, American, Russian, Japanese, personality and feelings are liability in war, they don't want overly charged personalities that might get pissed and kill everyone or overwhelmed by what they see and crumble. Its a question of degree though, 40k training and indoctrination overshadows what we see in even the most despotic regimes.
Oh and something I thought of. You have to wonder if the Kiegsmen or SOB are that effective, I mean is an army of martyrdom seeking/suicidal freaks really that effective.
The krieg are effective, just with incredibly high casualty rates. The point of a death charge is that eventually, no matter how many they cut down, the enemy will be overwhelmed with kriegsmen, and either break, fall back, or become open to new methods of attack.
I cant speak for SoB, but given the right amount of manpower, sure theyre effective. But theyre pretty much meat grinder troops (albeit damn good ones).
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Post by: Furyou Miko
The Sisters aren't suicidal, and most of them don't actively 'seek martyrdom'. They may be ready to die for their god, but they're far more eager to make the enemy die for his.
Nor are they 'meat grinder troops'. The Sisters simply don't have the numbers for that - Astartes outnumber Sororitas in the galaxy. They didn't only send six companies to the Eye of Terror because they couldn't be bothered - that's all they could spare.
If the Guard are the army and the Marines are the special air service, the Sisters are more like special weapons and tactics.
Like Vietnam, the Sisters don't go to war - they engage in police actions. For the Adepta Sororitas to go to war requires a unanimous approval from all twelve High Lords of Terra.
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Post by: Troike
The SoB aren't "seeking death". They won't, say, throw themselves onto a live grenade or anything like that. They're not just a fanatical rabble with good equipment, they're professional soldiers too.
However, they are very determined and driven, and will even be driven on by their comrades being martyred.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Troike wrote:The SoB aren't "seeking death". They won't, say, throw themselves onto a live grenade or anything like that. They're not just a fanatical rabble with good equipment, they're professional soldiers too.
However, they are very determined and driven, and will even be driven on by their comrades being martyred.
Actually, I could very much see a Sister doing that in order to prevent the grenade from, say, blasting her squadmates.
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Post by: Melissia
Frag weapons can't easily get through power armor, so she'd probably just kick it away instead.
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Post by: Trondheim
TiamatRoar wrote:Jollydevil wrote:
Theyre pretty much WW1.
Theyre not just based off it on looks. WW1 was nearly entirely consistent of death charges, one of the main components to Dkok battle strategy. WW1 also largely based upon trench and siege warfare, lo and behold another trait of the Death Korps. Gas masks. Trench coats. Massive artillery. More and more.
No, obviously WW1 troops were not cloned, or given serial numbers. Yes, theyre a dramatization. But what in 40K arent? The Death korps were based upon the troops of WW1. In order to work these values in, youve got to add backstory. What better way to justify stupidely massive charges than an unbreakable willingness to die? And what better way to symbolize the untold millions who died in said tactics, than making them all faceless?
I suppose what we have here is a disagreement over what was the symptom and what was the cause (IE, are they based off of WW1 with the faceless mook tropes being added on to complement that, or are they based off of faceless mooks with the WW1 tropes being added for flavor. Or both at the same time).
Has GW or Forgeworld ever directly stated what the main or original inspiration/purpose/theme was? Or are you just speculating how their design process went? (I'll admit that I am, myself)
They are based of the following Nationalities, French, Belgium, German and English soldiers. And yes WW1 was as mentioned more or less just a endless meatgrinder, witch men where thrown into
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Post by: Troike
Furyou Miko wrote:For the Adepta Sororitas to go to war requires a unanimous approval from all twelve High Lords of Terra.
It does? Not sure that's the case. The AS codex only mentions the Ecclesiarch needing to declare a war of faith. Then, of course, there's plenty of instances where the Sisters can come under attack themselves anyway. BrotherHaraldus wrote:Actually, I could very much see a Sister doing that in order to prevent the grenade from, say, blasting her squadmates.
Ah, I meant specifically to die, for the purposes of that example. All I was trying to get acorss is that they're not actively seeking death.
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Post by: Spetulhu
Troike wrote:All I was trying to get acorss is that they're notm actively seeking death.
Their indoctrination should make them much less prone to seeking a glorious death than marines or ordinary troops. Humility, self-denial, service - hubris and glory-seeking would be sins to them. A Sister that started dreaming of becoming famous for something would probably report herself to the Canoness for penance.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Melissia wrote:Frag weapons can't easily get through power armor, so she'd probably just kick it away instead.
Mind you, many Sisters go to battle helmetless.
Frag weapons do indeed have trouble with PA, but not with exposed skin. If a grenade explodes close enough to an unhelmeted SoB, they may very well get their face shredded. Automatically Appended Next Post: Troike wrote:Ah, I meant specifically to die, for the purposes of that example. All I was trying to get acorss is that they're not actively seeking death.
Fair enough.
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Post by: Troike
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Mind you, many Sisters go to battle helmetless.
Frag weapons do indeed have trouble with PA, but not with exposed skin. If a grenade explodes close enough to an unhelmeted SoB, they may very well get their face shredded.
I have to say, I'm unsure about whether this is meant as actual fluff. Many of the models being helmetless may've been done as a modelling decision of some sort. Certainly don't think that studio fluff has ever said anything about it,
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Post by: Ashiraya
Troike wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote:Mind you, many Sisters go to battle helmetless.
Frag weapons do indeed have trouble with PA, but not with exposed skin. If a grenade explodes close enough to an unhelmeted SoB, they may very well get their face shredded.
I have to say, I'm unsure about whether this is meant as actual fluff. Many of the models being helmetless may've been done as a modelling decision of some sort. Certainly don't think that studio fluff has ever said anything about it,
Well... While it's true that the scale is often straight to hell on the models, designwise I believe things are rather fluffy.
I'd see no issues with taking the models as our cue in this specific case.
Of course, going to war unhelmeted without a force field or something to protect you is often very unwise; those many long years of training and experience, not to mention all that flashy gear, matters little when a crazy civilian who got his hands on a pistol is blowing your brains out because you have no helm.
It's why I have modeled almost all of my CSM with helmets, myself. (The only one that is unhelmeted has a nice forcefield protecting the head.)
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Post by: Troike
Yeah, honestly, I'm unsure. I could have just been an attempt to go "look, these are women" rather than any real fluff decision. But maybe not. I'd be interested to see what SoB plastics were like, in this regard.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Of course, going to war unhelmeted without a force field or something to protect you is often very unwise; those many long years of training and experience, not to mention all that flashy gear, matters little when a crazy civilian who got his hands on a pistol is blowing your brains out because you have no helm.
Right, this is why I'm doubtful. It seems like a pretty big tactical blunder to make, if we're taking the models as fact. And the Sisters certainly do have helmets. Nice looking ones too.
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Post by: Jollydevil
Troike wrote:
Yeah, honestly, I'm unsure. I could have just been an attempt to go "look, these are women" rather than any real fluff decision. But maybe not. I'd be interested to see what SoB plastics were like, in this regard.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Of course, going to war unhelmeted without a force field or something to protect you is often very unwise; those many long years of training and experience, not to mention all that flashy gear, matters little when a crazy civilian who got his hands on a pistol is blowing your brains out because you have no helm.
Right, this is why I'm doubtful. It seems like a pretty big tactical blunder to make, if we're taking the models as fact. And the Sisters certainly do have helmets. Nice looking ones too.
I heard somewhere that the reason why they do it is because their own senses are heightened and so much better than the artificial ones in the helmet that they would prefer to have the heightened senses than any sort of face protection.
But I think its stupid too.
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Post by: Ashiraya
No, that's the Space Wolves.
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Post by: Troike
Jollydevil wrote:I heard somewhere that the reason why they do it is because their own senses are heightened and so much better than the artificial ones in the helmet that they would prefer to have the heightened senses than any sort of face protection.
Nah, their senses are those of a normal human. Albeit, a well-trained soldier. The helmet itself provides benefits anyway. It has a rebreather, full-spectrum filtering and limited psycho-oculal buffering.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Well, Dark Heresy fluffs it as "Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle", which is pants-on-head slowed. >>
None of my bolter-sisters wear helmets because I cannibalized the helmeted bolter-sisters for use as Rubric Marines. Ehe.
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Post by: Melissia
For a while, before GW closed down its bitz selling, I bought almost exclusively helmeted Sisters, myself.
Jegus I feel old saying that.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
I remember that. I remember talking to the Trollz on the phone when I wanted to order certain Covenant bits for a wraithseer conversion.
Just remembering that doesn't make you old :p
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Post by: Troike
I sometimes feel like I missed the golden age for the Sisters. Would have liked to have ordered a load of helmeted Sisters to represent an elite squad, or something like that.
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
The krieg are effective, just with incredibly high casualty rates. The point of a death charge is that eventually, no matter how many they cut down, the enemy will be overwhelmed with kriegsmen, and either break, fall back, or become open to new methods of attack.
I cant speak for SoB, but given the right amount of manpower, sure theyre effective. But theyre pretty much meat grinder troops (albeit damn good ones).
I was more talking about the DKOK. Keep in mind their not in imitation of WWI tactics that actually worked, their in imitation of meatgrinders like Verdun massing infantry while spreading out armoured vehicles means that the infantry get gunned down by machine guns and the tanks get isolated and taken out.
I'd go with guard regiments that are based on the Blitkrieg tactics like the Elysians and the Tallarn.
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Post by: Archie The Death Rider
We are talking about the personalities of the DKOK right?. I would say: Yes they are non-fearing fanatical WW1 imitations…But remember, the IOM just writes a load of glorious Propaganda. I can imagine a lot of DKOK guardsmen being blown to pieces…Trapped in barbed wire…Shot full of lead, and hating it. I can imagine them crying out loud for maybe some sort of person near to a friend to help them…i can imagine them screaming for help whilst they die slowly in agony. The DKOK aren't genetically modified for no fear or anything else. They are just broken and brainwashed to die horribly so that they can ensure victory for the IOM whilst them and their comrades fester in a unknown mass grave in a unknown planet somewhere. They are bought up for death…its their peak in life…whilst a Cadian guardsman's goal would be to have a family or get married…a Kreiger's is just to like i said….fester in a pit full of rotten corpses without a name or grave for the Big E. Millions of Kreigers must have at the point of death, think "Well this was for nothing, this is horrible, and i don't want to die"… But they are just silenced by their Quartermaster or Commissar. They scream in a muzzled voice of their Gas masks and beg for help….but they are shot. And this is what makes them so much similar to every solider in the WW1 front…they are brainwashed and told they are going to fight for good of god…and they have no fear…but when the point came for them to maybe die…they were unprepared. All the IOM say about them being "Unbreakable all the way to death" is rubbish…yes they are unbreakable, yes they are inhuman…but they still feel terrible pain and horror… The whole situation for the DKOK is all based around death and sins basically…a bleak understanding that you are going to die horribly and you are not getting anything from it…. Sad really.  PS. Last page someone mentioned Kreigsmen out with their families. They are grown in Viate womb, they have no family…they are tube babies mostly. And they would never go out with family, the son would probably join too, if there was chance the kreig father died. Some where it mentions throned or spiked helmets are passed down from surviving Kreigsmen to sons…SURVIVING. They only really get a chance at getting a family if they survive the horrors, which is rare…and psychological problems would probably get the kreigsman in even more trouble.
82357
Post by: Ironclad Warlord
Sad really.
Makes you wonder why they don't go renegade, wearing spikes, and getting really edgy.
83559
Post by: Archie The Death Rider
Ironclad Warlord wrote:Sad really.
Makes you wonder why they don't go renegade, wearing spikes, and getting really edgy.
Yeah…
I think some Chaos heretics may have come from DKOK troops such as members of the Blood Pact, who have the same helmet and design as them…just horned.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Because they don't? They actually want to die to an extreme (but not in vain! That's important, otherwise they would just mass suicide) for the Emperor.
Their final exercise is a live fire assault of a ruined city on Krieg, if they had any doubts about death and whatnot, it would happen there, but no, they don't care, at all.
83559
Post by: Archie The Death Rider
Bobthehero wrote:Because they don't? They actually want to die to an extreme (but not in vain! That's important, otherwise they would just mass suicide) for the Emperor.
Their final exercise is a live fire assault of a ruined city on Krieg, if they had any doubts about death and whatnot, it would happen there, but no, they don't care, at all.
I agree with you…i really do. Theres no doubt most Kreigers just want to die a glorious fanatical death for the big E.
But I'm saying there must be some amounts of them who are absolutely scared out of their wits and in agony in blood soaked mud. And that they scream for help and everything.
About the training in the ruins too. They aren't fighting hulking space lizards who want to eat their brains. But still, I'm only talking about a few. The rest are totally all for the glorious death, theres no doubt about that.
There must be some guy scared senseless under a gas mask somewhere in Kreig though.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
 Archie The Death Rider wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Because they don't? They actually want to die to an extreme (but not in vain! That's important, otherwise they would just mass suicide) for the Emperor.
Their final exercise is a live fire assault of a ruined city on Krieg, if they had any doubts about death and whatnot, it would happen there, but no, they don't care, at all.
I agree with you…i really do. Theres no doubt most Kreigers just want to die a glorious fanatical death for the big E.
But I'm saying there must be some amounts of them who are absolutely scared out of their wits and in agony in blood soaked mud. And that they scream for help and everything.
About the training in the ruins too. They aren't fighting hulking space lizards who want to eat their brains. But still, I'm only talking about a few. The rest are totally all for the glorious death, theres no doubt about that.
There must be some guy scared senseless under a gas mask somewhere in Kreig though.
Noooo.
That would make them deep.
We can't have that.
83559
Post by: Archie The Death Rider
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Archie The Death Rider wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Because they don't? They actually want to die to an extreme (but not in vain! That's important, otherwise they would just mass suicide) for the Emperor.
Their final exercise is a live fire assault of a ruined city on Krieg, if they had any doubts about death and whatnot, it would happen there, but no, they don't care, at all.
I agree with you…i really do. Theres no doubt most Kreigers just want to die a glorious fanatical death for the big E.
But I'm saying there must be some amounts of them who are absolutely scared out of their wits and in agony in blood soaked mud. And that they scream for help and everything.
About the training in the ruins too. They aren't fighting hulking space lizards who want to eat their brains. But still, I'm only talking about a few. The rest are totally all for the glorious death, theres no doubt about that.
There must be some guy scared senseless under a gas mask somewhere in Kreig though.
Noooo.
That would make them deep.
We can't have that.
*Cues Mad world to play*
Ive always seen the Kreiger sat with some Cadians in a trench staring hopelessly into the blood soaked battlefield…
I think it suits them.
Aint enough Grimdark for the DKOK
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
Blood Pact, who have the same helmet and design as them…just horned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archie the Death Rider-Leader of the Death Korp of Kreig 92nd siege regiment
I always wondered if that was true or just an internet rumor. I think Slaanesh is more suiting because heshe is everything that they were denied in life, pride, pleasure, Khorne would probably bore them to death.
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Post by: Archie The Death Rider
Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Blood Pact, who have the same helmet and design as them…just horned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archie the Death Rider-Leader of the Death Korp of Kreig 92nd siege regiment
I always wondered if that was true or just an internet rumor. I think Slaanesh is more suiting because heshe is everything that they were denied in life, pride, pleasure, Khorne would probably bore them to death.
Thats probably true, but also remember that the DKOK follow drills and well..attrition warfare all the time.
Going crazy and smashing someone head in would probably be fun for them.
Or Slaneesh would be good, like you said. Pleasures and such you know, would be good for them.
Then again, most of them would probably shoot themselves if they even though they were Chaos tinted.
But im sure, those Blood pact members are Death Korp.
I see a resemblance defiantly
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
Of course you know that's just fan art from what I understand to be a rather unusual and somewhat offensive artist on deviant art.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
I think it's less of a:
Ooh they have the same helmets
And more of a
THEY WEAR NAZI HELMETS CUZ THEY'RE BADDIES HURR HURR
GEDDIT
THE NAZIS WERE BADDIES
AND SO ARE BLOOD PACT
-smacks stapler into my face-
83559
Post by: Archie The Death Rider
BrotherOfBone wrote:I think it's less of a:
Ooh they have the same helmets
And more of a
THEY WEAR NAZI HELMETS CUZ THEY'RE BADDIES HURR HURR
GEDDIT
THE NAZIS WERE BADDIES
AND SO ARE BLOOD PACT
-smacks stapler into my face-
Sadly i think you may be true.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
Ironclad Warlord wrote:Of course you know that's just fan art from what I understand to be a rather unusual and somewhat offensive artist on deviant art.
We talking about torture-device? Automatically Appended Next Post: Archie The Death Rider wrote: BrotherOfBone wrote:I think it's less of a:
Ooh they have the same helmets
And more of a
THEY WEAR NAZI HELMETS CUZ THEY'RE BADDIES HURR HURR
GEDDIT
THE NAZIS WERE BADDIES
AND SO ARE BLOOD PACT
-smacks stapler into my face-
Sadly i think you may be true.
BADDIES YAY HURR HURR
-screams as the stapler is stuck to my eyelid-
-flails-
-dies-
People forget that GW don't understand things like hints or plot.
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Post by: Bobthehero
I find it strange that they would go traitor, considering the only reason the Death Korps is so distinctive is because their ancestor went traitor and they're attoning for that.
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Post by: Troike
I'm wondering, how do we think the SoB and Death Koros would get along? I think that they'd highly respect each other's discipline and fighting effectiveness. But the passionately zealous Sisters might be unnerved by the coldness of the Death Korps.
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Post by: Archie The Death Rider
Troike wrote:I'm wondering, how do we think the SoB and Death Koros would get along? I think that they'd highly respect each other's discipline and fighting effectiveness. But the passionately zealous Sisters might be unnerved by the coldness of the Death Korps.
Im not sure. I slightly think that the sisters of battle would do that. I get a strange feeling the DKOK wouldn't care and just would ignore them, kind of like that kid who you want to be friends with, but they just don't care.
And to Bobthehero
The Space marine chapters get tainted by Chaos, Nearly every part of the IOM has had someone tainted by Chaos. I think it would be very possible for a DKOK man to get chaos infested.
After that theres two options.
!) He shoots himself
2) He retaliates.
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Post by: Ashiraya
The Korps would probably think the Sisters are unprofessional amateurs that show emotion and similar in battle, even if it is fiery rage, zeal etc.
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Post by: Archie The Death Rider
BrotherHaraldus wrote:The Korps would probably think the Sisters are unprofessional amateurs that show emotion and similar in battle, even if it is fiery rage, zeal etc.
Yeah, the DKOK would probably just push them aside and get on with the job.
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
The sisters aren't known for getting along with anyone, and given that the death korp might be cloned they might think their soulless abominations.
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Post by: Archie The Death Rider
That also, i sense the DKOK as the unforgiving, uncaring solider. Im kind if convinced the SOB would deem them unholy.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
Archie The Death Rider wrote:That also, i sense the DKOK as the unforgiving, uncaring solider. Im kind if convinced the SOB would deem them unholy.
A construct of the Emperor's will, the perfect soldier.
Resolute in his belief.
Fearless.
Deadly.
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Post by: Archie The Death Rider
BrotherOfBone wrote: Archie The Death Rider wrote:That also, i sense the DKOK as the unforgiving, uncaring solider. Im kind if convinced the SOB would deem them unholy.
A construct of the Emperor's will, the perfect soldier.
Resolute in his belief.
Fearless.
Deadly.
Well...
I'm pretty sure the SOB help civilians yes?.
I read somewhere that the DKOK practise their marksmanship on them.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
Archie The Death Rider wrote: BrotherOfBone wrote: Archie The Death Rider wrote:That also, i sense the DKOK as the unforgiving, uncaring solider. Im kind if convinced the SOB would deem them unholy.
A construct of the Emperor's will, the perfect soldier.
Resolute in his belief.
Fearless.
Deadly.
Well...
I'm pretty sure the SOB help civilians yes?.
I read somewhere that the DKOK practise their marksmanship on them.
Depends what you define as a 'civilian'
If by civilian you mean paragon of all that is good in the world and most fervent worshiper of the Emprah himself, then yes. They like to help civilans.
They don't go around helping old ladies over the road.
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Post by: Troike
BrotherHaraldus wrote:The Korps would probably think the Sisters are unprofessional amateurs that show emotion and similar in battle, even if it is fiery rage, zeal etc.
They may not appreciate the emotion of the Sisters, but I hardly think that they'd class the Sisters as "amateurs". The SoB are some of the Imperium's most elite.
Untrue. They respect and work well with the Astartes in general, and have an especially good relationship with the Black Templars. They also get along well with Frateris Militia, so they'd really get on well with anyone of sufficient faith.
They've never been stated to have any particular dislike of vat-grown humans. They might see it as unnatural, or something like that, but they wouldn't necessarily condemn them as "abominations". They're still regular humans, and they serve the Imperium well. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not particularly. Destroying the enemy is the top priority. If anything, the SoB tend to be suspicious of the common citizen, if given any reason to be so.
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Post by: Sparks_Havelock
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Archie The Death Rider wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Because they don't? They actually want to die to an extreme (but not in vain! That's important, otherwise they would just mass suicide) for the Emperor.
Their final exercise is a live fire assault of a ruined city on Krieg, if they had any doubts about death and whatnot, it would happen there, but no, they don't care, at all.
I agree with you…i really do. Theres no doubt most Kreigers just want to die a glorious fanatical death for the big E.
But I'm saying there must be some amounts of them who are absolutely scared out of their wits and in agony in blood soaked mud. And that they scream for help and everything.
About the training in the ruins too. They aren't fighting hulking space lizards who want to eat their brains. But still, I'm only talking about a few. The rest are totally all for the glorious death, theres no doubt about that.
There must be some guy scared senseless under a gas mask somewhere in Kreig though.
Noooo.
That would make them deep.
We can't have that.
"I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear." - Nelson Mandela
The Korpsmen do not undergo surgery as a Space Marine does to make him 'fearless'. The Korpsman retains his full range of human emotions and he will be scared, he will feel fear, but he will overcome it because his adherence to obeying orders under fire is strong and the fanatical zeal he has to die for his God-Emperor will carry him on to certain death. Che Guevara wrote the following when he was fighting on Cuba; "During the battle I felt a need to live - this is a weakness I need to correct." That, I personally feel, fits perfectly with the Death Korps. We have real world examples of courage under fire beyond what you'd expect from a soldier, of soldiers fighting to the death without giving in to fear - such as the 21 Sikh's (Battle of Saragarhi).
However there is at least one recorded instance of the Death Korps falling back in fear - during the Siege of Vraks one assault was rebutted heavily and the first wave fled. They smashed into the ranks of the second wave and threw them into confusion and the attack had to be called off.
83559
Post by: Archie The Death Rider
Sparks_Havelock wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote: Archie The Death Rider wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Because they don't? They actually want to die to an extreme (but not in vain! That's important, otherwise they would just mass suicide) for the Emperor.
Their final exercise is a live fire assault of a ruined city on Krieg, if they had any doubts about death and whatnot, it would happen there, but no, they don't care, at all.
I agree with you…i really do. Theres no doubt most Kreigers just want to die a glorious fanatical death for the big E.
But I'm saying there must be some amounts of them who are absolutely scared out of their wits and in agony in blood soaked mud. And that they scream for help and everything.
About the training in the ruins too. They aren't fighting hulking space lizards who want to eat their brains. But still, I'm only talking about a few. The rest are totally all for the glorious death, theres no doubt about that.
There must be some guy scared senseless under a gas mask somewhere in Kreig though.
Noooo.
That would make them deep.
We can't have that.
"I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear." - Nelson Mandela
The Korpsmen do not undergo surgery as a Space Marine does to make him 'fearless'. The Korpsman retains his full range of human emotions and he will be scared, he will feel fear, but he will overcome it because his adherence to obeying orders under fire is strong and the fanatical zeal he has to die for his God-Emperor will carry him on to certain death. Che Guevara wrote the following when he was fighting on Cuba; "During the battle I felt a need to live - this is a weakness I need to correct." That, I personally feel, fits perfectly with the Death Korps. We have real world examples of courage under fire beyond what you'd expect from a soldier, of soldiers fighting to the death without giving in to fear - such as the 21 Sikh's (Battle of Saragarhi).
However there is at least one recorded instance of the Death Korps falling back in fear - during the Siege of Vraks one assault was rebutted heavily and the first wave fled. They smashed into the ranks of the second wave and threw them into confusion and the attack had to be called off.
There! That's why I was basing my idea off of! Thanks mate.
56811
Post by: Paimon
The first fluff about Krieg that I read that was more detailed than 'fearless and seeking to restore honor through death' was Love and Krieg It's entirely fan written, and thus not really cannon at all, but it forms the basis for my head cannon.
83559
Post by: Archie The Death Rider
 Paimon wrote:The first fluff about Krieg that I read that was more detailed than 'fearless and seeking to restore honor through death' was Love and Krieg It's entirely fan written, and thus not really cannon at all, but it forms the basis for my head cannon.
Uuuh yeah...
*Sigh* Love and Kreig. 
56811
Post by: Paimon
Sappy is better that ultra GRIM AND DARK in my opinion.
63973
Post by: Furyou Miko
Troike wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote:The Korps would probably think the Sisters are unprofessional amateurs that show emotion and similar in battle, even if it is fiery rage, zeal etc.
They may not appreciate the emotion of the Sisters, but I hardly think that they'd class the Sisters as "amateurs". The SoB are some of the Imperium's most elite.
I think amateur is the wrong word here. I can definitely see the Kriegsmen thinking that the Sisters are 'unprofessional' - their combat cultures are just too different. In return, the Sisters will think that the Kriegsmen have no fire, no drive. A Kriegsman cannot be a hero, cannot be a martyr, because to the outside, he does not appear to care.
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Post by: Troike
That sounds like an accurate assessment to me.
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
especially good relationship with the Black Templars.
So they get along with the most dysfunctional of astartes who worship the Emperor. That still doesn't mean they get along with most Imperial types, or that most Imperial types would like anyone who would follow someone with a name like G O G E Vandire, seriously that name just screams things i'm allowed to say on this site.
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Post by: Troike
Uh, they killed Vandire themselves. And don't you think that propaganda is going to cast the Sisters in a very favourable light historically and presently? The Sisters are big propaganda symbols too, just like the Space Marines. The average IG regiment would probably be thrilled to hear that the Sisters would be fighting alongside them.
Anyway, the BT relationship does demonstrate that they get on well with anyone who is sufficiently faithful towards Big E. They're normally somewhat untrusting of Astartes, but the BT seem to have overcome that with their beliefs and actions.
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Post by: MWHistorian
I never knew the fluff of the DKOK but holy cow those guys sound awesome. I want to start an army of them to ally with my Sisters immediately.
And as for Sisters being em-motionless automatons? Huh? Where'd that idea come from?
Need an example of how personalities can differ within a seemingly mono-paradigm sub-culture? Here ya go. It's my ongoing story of Sisters of Battle. (It was mentioned on page one. Thanks for the shout out!)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/547273.page
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Ironclad Warlord wrote:especially good relationship with the Black Templars.
So they get along with the most dysfunctional of astartes who worship the Emperor. That still doesn't mean they get along with most Imperial types, or that most Imperial types would like anyone who would follow someone with a name like G O G E Vandire, seriously that name just screams things i'm allowed to say on this site.
Wait, what? Maybe I'm being dense (it wouldn't be the first time), but what's wrong with Vandire's first name?
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Post by: liquidjoshi
Furyou Miko wrote:Ironclad Warlord wrote:especially good relationship with the Black Templars.
So they get along with the most dysfunctional of astartes who worship the Emperor. That still doesn't mean they get along with most Imperial types, or that most Imperial types would like anyone who would follow someone with a name like G O G E Vandire, seriously that name just screams things i'm allowed to say on this site.
Wait, what? Maybe I'm being dense (it wouldn't be the first time), but what's wrong with Vandire's first name?
I believe Ironclad was making a reference to a Bruva Alfabusa video, in which he mocks Vandire's name. Basically.
73675
Post by: TiamatRoar
Death Korps of Krieg ally with Sisters under Battle Brothers rules (both armies of Death Korps, including the Assault Brigade which has its own more restrictive allies list, ally with sisters on a Battle Brothers level)
So presumably they get along just fine in most cases.
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Post by: Psienesis
Let's see...
An army that exists and functions because it believes its homeworld, and thus everyone on it, owes their lives as a debt to the God-Emperor of Mankind, because they failed Him and Krieg, and has to have Commissars to stop them from running directly at the enemy to sell their lives to the God-Emperor, meets the Daughters of the Emperor, who are an elite fighting-force of the Imperium's Ecclesiarchy.
I would think the Death Korps would welcome such a sign of the God-Emperor's favor.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
 Psienesis wrote:I would think the Death Korps would welcome such a sign of the God-Emperor's favor.
I think the Commissars would have conniptions trying to keep both under control. You know how close the Sisters like to get to the enemy!
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Post by: Psienesis
True, though the Sisters are not under the authority of a Commissar, as a Commissar is an IG officer, to which the Ecclesiarchy is not beholden.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
That wouldn't stop the Commissar from trying.
I said conniptions, not success.
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Post by: Psienesis
Heh, maybe, but I tend to think of Commissars as being more... professional. Also, as a military officer, when you have clearly-defined chains of command, and know who's soldiers are who's, and who answers to who, it really reduces a lot of headaches...
... I mean, after all, these Commissars probably went to school with some of these Sisters! They know better than to tangle with them again!
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Post by: Devoted-to-the-machine
As a long time DKoK player with almost 200 standing (or kneeling lol) individual soldiers in my army, I think the DKoK would see the sisters reverence as a blessing. I love the fluff behind DKoK and find the grimness of the way they approach their duty as reminder of how tough the universe is. Only in death can they wash away the sins of the past. In the dead men walking book the commissar talks of going to Krieg, to get to know the troops psyche better. He says to the junior commissar “they’re still fighting.” They (DKoK) are the embodiment of “there is only war.” They stopped the rebellion with atomic fire only to rise up again to continue fighting, not out of hate, malice or contempt but to train and deploy a veteran soldier to every battle field the DKoK fight on. They continue a meat grinder on their own planet to insure well trained soldier fight the enemies of the Imperium. Soldiers who shot at each other across no man’s land survive only to be placed in the same unit and don’t even care. It was only training. To serve is to die. I btw hate that Veraks line "they fell back" it’s so far from characteristic of the regiment. I would have believed it more if I said “they faltered and were completely whipped out.” I btw play my Krieg like a real Krieg general should, I would kill every last guy to win. They have a debt to pay.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Psienesis wrote:Heh, maybe, but I tend to think of Commissars as being more... professional. Also, as a military officer, when you have clearly-defined chains of command, and know who's soldiers are who's, and who answers to who, it really reduces a lot of headaches...
... I mean, after all, these Commissars probably went to school with some of these Sisters! They know better than to tangle with them again!
I'd hope they were more professional, but from what we have in the supplementary materials, Commissars come in two camps: Hardarses who think they have an Inquisitorial Mandate, or Nice Guys who sometimes shoot people.
Also, much as I love the idea of the Commissar and the Sister knowing each other from Schola, the chances of it actually happening are astronomically small (thus a narratorial certainty).
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Post by: Ashiraya
Would they not have been trained separately in the Schola?
I mean, A Commissar does not exactly need PA training, if nothing else.
83559
Post by: Archie The Death Rider
If anyone in the Death Korp was trained with SOB, then i would think it would've been a quartermaster?.
19728
Post by: liquidjoshi
Commissar.
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Post by: Troike
Nope, regular guardsmen don't come from the Schola. Commissars and Stormtroopers do.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Would they not have been trained separately in the Schola?
I mean, A Commissar does not exactly need PA training, if nothing else.
Possibly. Men and women are kept seperate in the Schola, only coming together for religious ceremonies. So only if it was a male Commissar.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
No, the Schola doesn't deal with that side of things.
Sororitas aren't trained in bolters and power armour until they're selected by a Famulus.
All they'll have learned in terms of combat skills at the Schola are basic firearms and hand-to-hand combat. The specialised stuff comes later.
The schola progenium provides a very general kind of tuition that is as much about identifying a progena's talents and leanings as it is about education. The only thing that's absolute is the faith that's taught.
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