Just wondering, since this is obviously never going to happen:

1. Would the Inquisition have the authority to declare the Space Wolves Excommunicate Traitoris
2. If so, would they be able to do something about it physically? (I guess this is a bit of a silly GK vs SW thing, and I honestly want to know opinions on whether you think the GKs could wipe out the SWs)
3. Would SWs refusing to accept Inquisition orders sufficient times be reason enough for a military campaign against them?

Thanks for your opinions.

It boils down to that no one single SM chapter (in the age of 40K) could possibly hope to wipe out another chapter. Not enough man power, not enough resources, not enough this or that. Its just that logistically its impossible.

So no. The GK could not wipe out the SW alone. So now you start getting into alliances. Well, everybody has friends and everybody like a good brawl. The entire Empire now falls into disarray with infighting.

The Orks show up because they love a good party.
Chaos comes through the Cadia gate because Abbaddon finally sees his chance.
The Necrons wake up on Mars because of all the damn noise and yell at the neighbor kids.
Nids invade and are somewhat upset that they have to resort to carrion, but don't care anyway and start eating.
And the Eldar just nod to each other and say.. "Just as planned."

 Jayden63 wrote:
It boils down to that no one single SM chapter (in the age of 40K) could possibly hope to wipe out another chapter. Not enough man power, not enough resources, not enough this or that. Its just that logistically its impossible.

So no. The GK could not wipe out the SW alone. So now you start getting into alliances. Well, everybody has friends and everybody like a good brawl. The entire Empire now falls into disarray with infighting.

The Orks show up because they love a good party.
Chaos comes through the Cadia gate because Abbaddon finally sees his chance.
The Necrons wake up on Mars because of all the damn noise and yell at the neighbor kids.
Nids invade and are somewhat upset that they have to resort to carrion, but don't care anyway and start eating.
And the Eldar just nod to each other and say.. "Just as planned."

And thus the plot for DoW 3 was created.

 Mavlun wrote:
Just wondering, since this is obviously never going to happen:

1. Would the Inquisition have the authority to declare the Space Wolves Excommunicate Traitoris
2. If so, would they be able to do something about it physically? (I guess this is a bit of a silly GK vs SW thing, and I honestly want to know opinions on whether you think the GKs could wipe out the SWs)
3. Would SWs refusing to accept Inquisition orders sufficient times be reason enough for a military campaign against them?

Thanks for your opinions.

Will it happen? No because that would be progressing the story a bit and that isnt allowed :/

They would have the ability but there are so many factors as to why they shouldnt (haters be damned) them by themselves no, with the help of sorroritas no, with the help of GK and Sorroritas I still think no, but it will be closer, the inquisition would need a huge force to do this and I think it is because not only would you be fighting the entire chapter all 12 great companies but they will be enraged at the acusations and I feel like there are some unlikely allies that will come to the aid of the wolves and help if needed (not that it would be accepted at first if at all)

The refusals are only known to the Inquisition am i correct? If so, its gonna take a lot of proof for other chapters to campaign against them (IE: Helbreicht isnt going to crusade the wolves just because the Inquisition said they ignored em once or twice) but outside looking in (because I am not apart of this paranoid, war mongering terrified of cloaked men with cybernetic bits destroying my planet for doing the opposite of what the emperor initially wanted and worshiping him like a god) The fluff armor given to both sides would probably enrage a metric feth ton of players, and GW likes money to much to have huge fan bases (on both sides) rage quit because a chapter was wiped out for no reason or the all mighty god mode inquisition failed at a removing a bunch of loyalists that still follow the emperor's teachings >.>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
It boils down to that no one single SM chapter (in the age of 40K) could possibly hope to wipe out another chapter. Not enough man power, not enough resources, not enough this or that. Its just that logistically its impossible.

So no. The GK could not wipe out the SW alone. So now you start getting into alliances. Well, everybody has friends and everybody like a good brawl. The entire Empire now falls into disarray with infighting.

The Orks show up because they love a good party.
Chaos comes through the Cadia gate because Abbaddon finally sees his chance.
The Necrons wake up on Mars because of all the damn noise and yell at the neighbor kids.
Nids invade and are somewhat upset that they have to resort to carrion, but don't care anyway and start eating.
And the Eldar just nod to each other and say.. "Just as planned."

And thus the plot for DoW 3 was created.

I would play, the ever loving feth out of that, especially if it had different campaigns for your five chapters (Wolves and allies, Inquisition and pals, Orks, Crons, Chaos) and maybe the bugs and elves could throw down now and then too.

Ok i think I wasn't very clear in mu OP and l apologize.

For point 2, forget allies, ramifications, other chapters and other factions joining in. I understand from the get go that this fight would never happen, that the fluff wouldn't allow it, etc. But speculate on who (and why) you think would come out victorious in an all out battle between GK sanctioned to use full force vs Space Wolves.

 Mavlun wrote:
Ok i think I wasn't very clear in mu OP and l apologize.

For point 2, forget allies, ramifications, other chapters and other factions joining in. I understand from the get go that this fight would never happen, that the fluff wouldn't allow it, etc. But speculate on who (and why) you think would come out victorious in an all out battle between GK sanctioned to use full force vs Space Wolves.

GK coming to fenris to invade against the entire chapter? SW would win this battle

12 great companies

The canny Primach pulled a sleight of hand on his brother Guilliman, ostensibly agreeing to separate the Space Wolves Legion into thirteen independant Great Companies, each roughly a Chapter in strength

With the rage, and all of the leaders of the wolves making an apperance for an affront like this (Bjorn, bran, Logan, Ulrik, Njal, Arjac, Canis and all the Wolf Lords) I cant see the Grey Knights surviving the fight let alone the planet itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
Ok i think I wasn't very clear in mu OP and l apologize.

For point 2, forget allies, ramifications, other chapters and other factions joining in. I understand from the get go that this fight would never happen, that the fluff wouldn't allow it, etc. But speculate on who (and why) you think would come out victorious in an all out battle between GK sanctioned to use full force vs Space Wolves.

GK coming to fenris to invade against the entire chapter? SW would win this battle

12 great companies

The canny Primach pulled a sleight of hand on his brother Guilliman, ostensibly agreeing to separate the Space Wolves Legion into thirteen independant Great Companies, each roughly a Chapter in strength

Spoiler:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Wolves

With the rage, and all of the leaders of the wolves making an apperance for an affront like this (Bjorn, bran, Logan, Ulrik, Njal, Arjac, Canis and all the Wolf Lords) I cant see the Grey Knights surviving the fight let alone the planet itself.

Edit: I do not want to come off as like "nyah nyah my army is better!" I just dont think the battle would end well, however it would probably be one of the coolest. (I would love to see more terminators jump from their space craft because Feth teleporters

 Jayden63 wrote:
It boils down to that no one single SM chapter (in the age of 40K) could possibly hope to wipe out another chapter. Not enough man power, not enough resources, not enough this or that. Its just that logistically its impossible.

The Minotaurs are known for doing just this exact thing in the 41st Millenium. Besides, there's more than 2 chapters total in the Imperium so it doesn't even need to be 1v1.

In answer to the OP:

Yes, they can excommunicate just about anyone
Yes, they would be able to organise an attack on Fenris - it would be costly, but the Imperium doesn't usually count the cost. That's if they don't just decide to destroy the planet completely to save trouble.
Yes, baiting the Inquisition rarely ends well, even if you are a mutant post-human Jarl Jakobsson.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
It boils down to that no one single SM chapter (in the age of 40K) could possibly hope to wipe out another chapter. Not enough man power, not enough resources, not enough this or that. Its just that logistically its impossible.

The Minotaurs are known for doing just this exact thing in the 41st Millenium. Besides, there's more than 2 chapters total in the Imperium so it doesn't even need to be 1v1.

you mean like how the wolves did in the past?

and OP said no allies, it was just GK and Inquisition vs SW

this already NEARLY happened.

I reccomend reading the novel "the Empeor's Gift" if you're curious

They would not send the GK, as there are no demons involved.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They would not send the GK, as there are no demons involved.

Look up the "Months of Shame" after the First black Crusade, already happened and a Lord Inquisitor ended up dead as well as a GK Grand Master

The Space Wolves have a fethload of men. (About 12x the standard chapter number, though this number varies heavily depending on the info source and probably the time.) They live on a planet where every citizen is a badass just for surviving at all. Their base is one of the oldest, most powerful fortresses in the galaxy outside of Terra itself. Also, their Rune Priests are really great against other Psykers. (IE the entire GK army.)


Then again, the Grey Knights are far stronger and better equipped on a man-to-man basis, and live in an even better defended area.

So, whoever attacks the other person loses. The home field advantages are just too much to deal with.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They would not send the GK, as there are no demons involved.

However, when the Grey Knights themselves decided to Sanction the Space Wolves, it did not go well for the Grey Knights.

When an Inquisitor did try to Traitoris Extremis the Space Wolves, he took three minor orders of the Sororitas (so one or two thousand Sisters of Battle) and a Battlefleet to Fenris and they got slaughtered. Since destroying rogue Astartes chapters is one of the sacred duties of the Adepta Sororitas, I think it's safe to say that the Space Wolves are completely unassailable as long as they are writing the sagas.

As to the comments about the Wolves outnumbering any other Astartes chapter, the legend that each Great Company is the size of a regular Chapter is wildly inaccurate. Even if the Space Wolves weren't critically undermanned, the majority of those Heroes (in the liedic sense) are off world at any given time. It's probably rare for their to be more than five hundred Wolves at the Fang at any given moment.

Which just cements their status as the Mary Sues of the setting.

A mission that would take five Guard regiments? A mission that would take the Minotaurs chapter? A mission that would take a Major Order of the Adepta Sororitas?

All of these things can be achieved by ten Space Wolves and a broken down old Thunderhawk.

After all, who else could restore the faith of a Canoness simply by arriving?

Waaaghpower wrote:
The Space Wolves have a fethload of men. (About 12x the standard chapter number, though this number varies heavily depending on the info source and probably the time.) .

no they don't.

The 5th edition Space Wolf Codex identifies Ragnar Blackmane's Great Company as being second only to the Great Wolf's company, having "nearly 200 men" thus we can proably figure that the space wolves are a double strength chapter. triple TOPS

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:


GK coming to fenris to invade against the entire chapter? SW would win this battle

12 great companies

Don't take this the wrong way, but each great company is anywhere between 0 to a maximum of 200 (with only 2 companies reaching that kind of number). So definitely NOT Chapter size.

Well you can't really say that the Grey Knights sanctioned the Space Wolves. Technically the Inquisition betrayed the Wolves and ordered all survivors to be killed. The Grey Knights never amassed a huge army to send to Fenris, if memory serves me correctly they couldn't even muster a full brotherhood. The Grey Knights would never be able to bring the full chapter together against the Space Wolves, thus any engagement would always have the Grey Knights outnumbered.

Add upon that the fact that Grey Knights are bred to combat daemons. Yes, they have amazing abilities and are often considered the elite of the Space Marines, but waging wars against fellow Astartes is now their area of expertise.

Also take note that the Grey Knights do not hate the Space Wolves. The GK are pawns of the Inquisition, and they were misused. While both chapters will remain wary of one another for quite some time, it is not the sort of bad blood that other loyalist chapters still cling to in futility.

As for your questions.

1) Yes the Inquisition could claim the SW are traitors, but I believe that if a first founding chapter were to be marred by such a claim it would create rifts amongst the High Lords of Terra. While the SW are not the most popular kids on the block, they are still one of the oldest surviving chapters and can trace their loyalties back to the very battlefields the Emperor himself set foot upon.

2) If it was deemed necessary to attack the SW, the Inquisition would win. They operate without borders or limits to means. Assuming they garnered support from the High Lords they would unleash everything they could at the Wolves. No chapter survives when titan legions, space marine chapters and armies of guardsmen march down their throats. I believe the Wolves would put up a valiant fight, but they couldn't possibly survive.

3) No, not really. Declining a superiors orders will earn you a reprimand and possibly a discharge in most circles. Inquisitors however are not exactly superior to a Chapter Master. They claim to be at times, while sometimes they will play the subservient role if they believe it will provide them with what they want. It's a very grey area for all parties involved. Yes the Inquisition can sanction you (much like the United Nations), however this doesn't mean the end of the world. The Space Wolves have operated autonomously for centuries and will not bow to the whims of anyone they deem to be "lesser men".

The Inquisition would never go to war with them over such discrepancies. As I said early within this post, the event that led to an engagement in the space around Fenris during the novel True Grit was provoked by a maddened Inquisitor. These men/women often lose themselves to their near limitless power and believe they are beyond reproach. The SW would not accept this man's betrayal and thus honored the pact they made with the citizens and guardsmen of Armageddon. It's difficult to be angry with an honorable action, especially when the opposing side refuses to see sense or reason.

With all of that said, I still HATE the Space Wolves and love the Grey Knights.

1. Yes they could, but it would have serious complications. The Space Wolves, as a first founding chapter have lots of allies and political power, not to mention a huge amount of political and religious significance.

2. The Grey Knights not on their own. The Grey Knights are specialised in fighting deamons, not astartes (though they surely can fight them as well), while the SW were specially designed to kill astartes (According to many sources they served as the Emperor's executioners and are responsible for the 2 missing legions and they were also sent to eliminate the Thousand Sons and World Eaters). It should be noted that the SW and GK are unlikely to fight each other at full strenght however. The Grey Knights are supposed to deal with deamons and fall under the authority of the Ordo Malleus. Dealing with wayward SM chapters falls under the authority of the Ordo Hereticus.

3. No. Space Marines do not fall under the authority of the Inquisition and do not have to follow their orders, and as long as the chapter is powerful enough, there is not much the Inquisition can do.

In the end, such important matters would likely be beyond the authority of the Inquisition and would have to be decided on by the High Lords of Terra themselves.
In any case, there are no reasons for the Inquisition to fight the SW, as the SW are still loyal to the Emperor.

1. Yes they could, but it would have serious complications. The Space Wolves, as a first founding chapter have lots of allies and political power, not to mention a huge amount of political and religious significance.

Actually space wolves would be one of the few that don't have lots of political power, considering their actions throughout have offended most, they've been brutish, vile, and pretty much they aren't a socializing bunch when it doesn't come to their sort of kind. Possibly allies, but not enough for them to potentially save them as see above.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

1. Yes they could, but it would have serious complications. The Space Wolves, as a first founding chapter have lots of allies and political power, not to mention a huge amount of political and religious significance.

Actually space wolves would be one of the few that don't have lots of political power, considering their actions throughout have offended most, they've been brutish, vile, and pretty much they aren't a socializing bunch when it doesn't come to their sort of kind. Possibly allies, but not enough for them to potentially save them as see above.

Do you have any sources for that claim? The SW have plenty of influence in the Imperium (see the Wolfblade for an example) and it is only logical for a first founding chapter to make sure to have the neccessary spies, allies and influence among the Imperium's ruling elite. The SW are not different in that regard. The SW are not 'brutish and vile'. They can and do offend those they do not like or care about, but they are sophisticated tacticians and can be very charismatic when the circumstances require it.
Also, many other first founding chapters would not take kindly to action being taken against one of them, as it could have unfortunate implications for them as well.
And that is before even mentioning the historical and religious significance of a first founding chapter.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

1. Yes they could, but it would have serious complications. The Space Wolves, as a first founding chapter have lots of allies and political power, not to mention a huge amount of political and religious significance.

Actually space wolves would be one of the few that don't have lots of political power, considering their actions throughout have offended most, they've been brutish, vile, and pretty much they aren't a socializing bunch when it doesn't come to their sort of kind. Possibly allies, but not enough for them to potentially save them as see above.

Do you have any sources for that claim? The SW have plenty of influence in the Imperium (see the Wolfblade for an example) and it is only logical for a first founding chapter to make sure to have the neccessary spies, allies and influence among the Imperium's ruling elite. The SW are not different in that regard. The SW are not 'brutish and vile'. They can and do offend those they do not like or care about, but they are sophisticated tacticians and can be very charismatic when the circumstances require it.
Also, many other first founding chapters would not take kindly to action being taken against one of them, as it could have unfortunate implications for them as well.
And that is before even mentioning the historical and religious significance of a first founding chapter.

Considering how close the DA are coming close to it, not to mention from brother chapters it seems that there are limits to how much you can spit in the face of others. As well as the fact that even if say the SW have some power, even the Ultramarines, a founding chapter could do nothing when the Minotaurs killed off one of their split off chapters and took Ultramarine Relics for themselves, and the UM are a group who most would have far more power when it comes to being 'Charismatic."

And yes 'Sophisticated tacticians'. The one's that would fire a Whirlwinds payload on the move, driving at top speed towards the explosions so they can get an up close view like silly children. I mean we know the SW are SM + 1 who have the biggest Mary Sue armor when it comes to their fluff because of how silly it is from time to time, but if there was any consistency, it's certainly that they aren't exactly stalwart champions of Charisma.

 Mavlun wrote:
Just wondering, since this is obviously never going to happen:

1. Would the Inquisition have the authority to declare the Space Wolves Excommunicate Traitoris
2. If so, would they be able to do something about it physically? (I guess this is a bit of a silly GK vs SW thing, and I honestly want to know opinions on whether you think the GKs could wipe out the SWs)
3. Would SWs refusing to accept Inquisition orders sufficient times be reason enough for a military campaign against them?

Thanks for your opinions.

1 No as much of a pain in the ass the wolves are for the inquisition they are heroes of the imperium and with the exception of the Dark Angels on good terms with every chapter that they have worked with they are offcourse allo a first founding chapter. If the Inquisition ever tried to declare them traitors it would start a civil war.
2 Not without starting a civil war
3 No a first founding chapter can pretty much tell the inquisition to feth off.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
he took three minor orders of the Sororitas (so one or two thousand Sisters of Battle) and a Battlefleet to Fenris and they got slaughtered

No, it wasn't a slaughter. The fluff just says that they fought the Wolves for a while, and were eventually told to withdraw. No mention of it being a slaughter.

 Troike wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
he took three minor orders of the Sororitas (so one or two thousand Sisters of Battle) and a Battlefleet to Fenris and they got slaughtered

No, it wasn't a slaughter. The fluff just says that they fought the Wolves for a while, and were eventually told to withdraw. No mention of it being a slaughter.

The fluff doesn't say anything beyond that they fought and that the SoB withdrew after being unable to defeat the SW defending the Fang, so it could very well have been a slaughter. The SoB are after all not known for giving up easily.
But as the fluff doesn't say anything everyone is free to think whatever he/she wants of it.

Regardless, the SoB are part of the Ecclessiarchy, not the Inquisition, so this is irrelevant.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The fluff doesn't say anything beyond that they fought and that the SoB withdrew after being unable to defeat the SW defending the Fang, so it could very well have been a slaughter. The SoB are after all not known for giving up easily.
But as the fluff doesn't say anything everyone is free to think whatever he/she wants of it.

What it does say is that the SoB are still fighting them after three weeks, when the Ecclesiarchy decides to withdraw its forces becuase it decides to leave the Wolves alone. This implies that they could have kept fighting if they wished. The decision to withdraw was entuirely willing, not a result of their forces being decimated.

Space Marines ignore, and sometimes disappear, Inquisitors so I doubt that them not following orders would be enough.

There wouldn't really be a point in condemning the Space Wolves by branding them as Excomunicate Traitoris as they'd only prove to be another thorn in the Imperium's side. While they aren't my favourite Chapter they are loyal and have humanities best intentions at heart, well as much as they can really given the setting.

It's hard to get any concrete information of the size of the Space Wolves during the HH. Given how some Legions have tens of thousands of marines it would appear they never got anywhere near that level.

The thing about saying 'The Inquisition vs X' is that Inquisitors can request the resources of any Imperial assets. So in that respect, having the Inquisition vs Space Wolves is tantamount to the Imperium vs Space Wolves.

 Sturmtruppen wrote:
The thing about saying 'The Inquisition vs X' is that Inquisitors can request the resources of any Imperial assets. So in that respect, having the Inquisition vs Space Wolves is tantamount to the Imperium vs Space Wolves.

This is important, because that is how the Inquisition operates.

Someone earlier said that the Astartes are not subject to the Inquisition. This is wrong. There are all of 2 groups in the Imperium who are beyond an Inquisitor's authority. One of them is the God-Emperor, Himself. The other is the Adeptus Custodes who guard the Emperor's person and the Golden Throne of Terra.

If you are not one of these two groups, you are under the authority of the Inquisition, from High Lord of Terra down to the lowliest scum-dweller.

However, the Imperium being what it is, having the authority to do something does not automatically grant you the ability to do something.

If the Wolves were considered Excommunicatus Traitorus, though, it would not be a long fight.

1) Inquisition rounds up Imperial Navy assets and either the Minotaurs or the Space Sharks.
2) Fleet approaches Fenris. Space Sharks/Minotaurs engage SW fleet above Fenris.
3) Navy asset flies towards the south pole of Fenris, which is on the opposite side of Fenris from The Fang, and thus shields itself from the Fang using the planet itself.
4) Navy asset deploys Cyclonic Torpedoes under Inquisitorial authority.
5) Fenris ceases to exist. The Space Wolves are now doomed to extinction.

... when you have an Inquisitor with brains and tactical acumen, taking out someone like the Wolves isn't so hard.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Sturmtruppen wrote:
The thing about saying 'The Inquisition vs X' is that Inquisitors can request the resources of any Imperial assets. So in that respect, having the Inquisition vs Space Wolves is tantamount to the Imperium vs Space Wolves.

This is important, because that is how the Inquisition operates.

Someone earlier said that the Astartes are not subject to the Inquisition. This is wrong. There are all of 2 groups in the Imperium who are beyond an Inquisitor's authority. One of them is the God-Emperor, Himself. The other is the Adeptus Custodes who guard the Emperor's person and the Golden Throne of Terra.

If you are not one of these two groups, you are under the authority of the Inquisition, from High Lord of Terra down to the lowliest scum-dweller.

However, the Imperium being what it is, having the authority to do something does not automatically grant you the ability to do something.

If the Wolves were considered Excommunicatus Traitorus, though, it would not be a long fight.

1) Inquisition rounds up Imperial Navy assets and either the Minotaurs or the Space Sharks.
2) Fleet approaches Fenris. Space Sharks/Minotaurs engage SW fleet above Fenris.
3) Navy asset flies towards the south pole of Fenris, which is on the opposite side of Fenris from The Fang, and thus shields itself from the Fang using the planet itself.
4) Navy asset deploys Cyclonic Torpedoes under Inquisitorial authority.
5) Fenris ceases to exist. The Space Wolves are now doomed to extinction.

... when you have an Inquisitor with brains and tactical acumen, taking out someone like the Wolves isn't so hard.

This is pretty much what I was thinking as well. The GKs though, you don't see as doing that well vs. SWs, do you?

Troike wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The fluff doesn't say anything beyond that they fought and that the SoB withdrew after being unable to defeat the SW defending the Fang, so it could very well have been a slaughter. The SoB are after all not known for giving up easily.
But as the fluff doesn't say anything everyone is free to think whatever he/she wants of it.

What it does say is that the SoB are still fighting them after three weeks, when the Ecclesiarchy decides to withdraw its forces becuase it decides to leave the Wolves alone. This implies that they could have kept fighting if they wished. The decision to withdraw was entuirely willing, not a result of their forces being decimated.

The Sisters were involved in a battle. Both sides probably got slaughtered. However, since it's a piece of fluff involving the Space Wolves, who can do no bloody wrong, it's probably safe to say that the Sisters came off worse for it.

That said, I am very bitter about anything involving the Wolves. It probably comes from being a Thousand Sons sympathiser and a Sisters player, as contradictory as that may seem.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and the horrible way the Wolves are written. There's being a large-than-life hero... and then there's being Adam West's Batman.

 Mavlun wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Sturmtruppen wrote:
The thing about saying 'The Inquisition vs X' is that Inquisitors can request the resources of any Imperial assets. So in that respect, having the Inquisition vs Space Wolves is tantamount to the Imperium vs Space Wolves.

This is important, because that is how the Inquisition operates.

Someone earlier said that the Astartes are not subject to the Inquisition. This is wrong. There are all of 2 groups in the Imperium who are beyond an Inquisitor's authority. One of them is the God-Emperor, Himself. The other is the Adeptus Custodes who guard the Emperor's person and the Golden Throne of Terra.

If you are not one of these two groups, you are under the authority of the Inquisition, from High Lord of Terra down to the lowliest scum-dweller.

However, the Imperium being what it is, having the authority to do something does not automatically grant you the ability to do something.

If the Wolves were considered Excommunicatus Traitorus, though, it would not be a long fight.

1) Inquisition rounds up Imperial Navy assets and either the Minotaurs or the Space Sharks.
2) Fleet approaches Fenris. Space Sharks/Minotaurs engage SW fleet above Fenris.
3) Navy asset flies towards the south pole of Fenris, which is on the opposite side of Fenris from The Fang, and thus shields itself from the Fang using the planet itself.
4) Navy asset deploys Cyclonic Torpedoes under Inquisitorial authority.
5) Fenris ceases to exist. The Space Wolves are now doomed to extinction.

... when you have an Inquisitor with brains and tactical acumen, taking out someone like the Wolves isn't so hard.

This is pretty much what I was thinking as well. The GKs though, you don't see as doing that well vs. SWs, do you?

Not really. The Space Wolves are not the sorts of opponents the GK are designed to fight. It's really just a waste of resources to send the GK to fight the SW, when there are Chapters and other factions who are explicitly better at Marine-purging than the GK are.

It should be noted, however, that the events leading up to the Months of Shame, caused by the Space Wolves, got more Imperial citizens killed than would have been had they just let the ships get blown up. As it was, because the SW intervened, and let some vessels containing possibly-Corrupt individuals escape, the Imperium was forced to commit Exterminatus on several planets and other locations. The Space Wolves come out of that looking like fething morons who, even though they are woefully, terribly, stupidly wrong, still win the battles in the end because Plot Armor. However, they are... really stupid. Really, really stupid.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Sisters were involved in a battle. Both sides probably got slaughtered.

Slaughtered seems like a bit of a strong word to use, though. It was probably a hard fight, but I don't think that either side was trashed that badly. At least not all of them.

I wouldn't say the SW won the battle. A truce was called, and Grimnar should be thankful for that. He was essentially going on a last charge to deal as much damage as he could before he and his brothers were wiped out. If Bjorn had not intervened the remaining inquisitorial, naval and Red Hunter's forces would have wiped out the meager SW fleet and destroyed Fenris.

Troike wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Sisters were involved in a battle. Both sides probably got slaughtered.

Slaughtered seems like a bit of a strong word to use, though. It was probably a hard fight, but I don't think that either side was trashed that badly. At least not all of them.

You need to play more games :p

Psienesis wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:


-snip-

Not really. The Space Wolves are not the sorts of opponents the GK are designed to fight. It's really just a waste of resources to send the GK to fight the SW, when there are Chapters and other factions who are explicitly better at Marine-purging than the GK are.

It should be noted, however, that the events leading up to the Months of Shame, caused by the Space Wolves, got more Imperial citizens killed than would have been had they just let the ships get blown up. As it was, because the SW intervened, and let some vessels containing possibly-Corrupt individuals escape, the Imperium was forced to commit Exterminatus on several planets and other locations. The Space Wolves come out of that looking like fething morons who, even though they are woefully, terribly, stupidly wrong, still win the battles in the end because Plot Armor. However, they are... really stupid. Really, really stupid.

But, but, the GK have AP3 weapons across the board! How could they lose?!?!?!

*cough*

Yet, it took a Space Wolf to tell a Canoness that she did the wrong thing by accepting refugees. Double standards much?

Imperator Dei, but I hate Blood of Asaheim.

I don't think the Carcharodons would fight the Space Wolves as they seem only interested in fighting true enemies of the Imperium and would not be simply summoned at the behest of an Inquisitor.

The Wolves [i]are[i] enemies of the Imperium.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I don't think the Carcharodons would fight the Space Wolves as they seem only interested in fighting true enemies of the Imperium and would not be simply summoned at the behest of an Inquisitor.

Then the Space Sharks might find themselves not getting their fleet resupplied or turned away from Imperial Naval stations. A Chapter refuses a request from the Inquisition at its peril... even if they have a valid, good reason to do so.

If the Inquisition decided to declare the Space Wolves excommunicato...they would likely do it on the down-low...

Deep in a incense laced chamber with a lot of hooded hook-nosed old leather skinned inquisitors all deciding to act, by a unanimous vote..or some other such grimdarkness wackiness.

then announce some form of celebration of the Wolves contributions to the Imperium and some kind of display of imperial power over fenris to honor them, and gather all of them together, or as many as possible in one place.

Then pearl harbor them....

Have a flunky down on the planet read aloud the list of crimes the inquisition "feels" they have been found guilty of and at the final sentence of this proclamation..the planet gets glassed..the orbiting wolves ships are alpha stuck by massive Imperial navy assets, and any mop up is conducted by what ever the big I decides is needed.

They don't have to fight fair..they are the inquisition after all......

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Since destroying rogue Astartes chapters is one of the sacred duties of the Adepta Sororitas

.

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Wolves were considered Excommunicatus Traitorus, though, it would not be a long fight.

1) Inquisition rounds up Imperial Navy assets and either the Minotaurs or the Space Sharks.
2) Fleet approaches Fenris. Space Sharks/Minotaurs engage SW fleet above Fenris.
3) Navy asset flies towards the south pole of Fenris, which is on the opposite side of Fenris from The Fang, and thus shields itself from the Fang using the planet itself.
4) Navy asset deploys Cyclonic Torpedoes under Inquisitorial authority.
5) Fenris ceases to exist. The Space Wolves are now doomed to extinction.

... when you have an Inquisitor with brains and tactical acumen, taking out someone like the Wolves isn't so hard.

Or :
Inquisitor sends specialist infiltrator to release some kind of virus weapon, kills all the humans of Fenris. Space wolves can not recruit anyone anymore. Job done !

Furyou Miko is correct. The Sororitas are the go-to for the Ordo Hereticus for purging Space Marine Chapters. The very first appearance of the Sisters of Battle in 40K is the purging of the Rainbow Warriors, as a matter of fact.

It's hard to get people onto Fenris that the Wolves don't know about (again, all that plot armor)... though I like the idea of having the Wolves come to a big beer-tent party and it turns into the Red Wedding... on a much bigger scale.

Well for any scenario between these kind of entities..plot armor has to be set aside, since its capable of anything...a few snub fighters blowing up a massive space station etc..

And since the wolves have rune casters and other sorts of psychic mumbo jumbo, the Inq would just have to keep the info of the snuffing to its best shielded agents (they do have a long history of keeping things secret)

they just assume command of what ever assets are necessary at the proper time.

appeal to the wolves traditions and vanities..then plunge the dagger...make up a cover story of some massive warp incursion..alot of hairy half-men eating people etc..and carry on.

Use the now not needed mars weapon allocation to raise a new chapter in honor of the fallen wolves (call it the Dire wolves ) and mold it into another Minotaur style enforcer chapter.

sure its evil..and over the top, and dark...welcome to 40k, we need a some more of that anyway

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Well for any scenario between these kind of entities..plot armor has to be set aside, since its capable of anything...a few snub fighters blowing up a massive space station etc..

And since the wolves have rune casters and other sorts of psychic mumbo jumbo, the Inq would just have to keep the info of the snuffing to its best shielded agents (they do have a long history of keeping things secret)

they just assume command of what ever assets are necessary at the proper time.

appeal to the wolves traditions and vanities..then plunge the dagger...make up a cover story of some massive warp incursion..alot of hairy half-men eating people etc..and carry on.

Use the now not needed mars weapon allocation to raise a new chapter in honor of the fallen wolves (call it the Dire wolves ) and mold it into another Minotaur style enforcer chapter.

sure its evil..and over the top, and dark...welcome to 40k, we need a some more of that anyway

Or they just send Culexus Assassins and the others of the Assassinorium to kill off those who could.

Even the Rune Priests cannot sense blanks.

Zebio, I think you've misunderstood something fundamental about Blanks.

Blunts can sense blankers. To a Psyker, they show up as a sucking hole in reality.

Re: the SOB seige of the Fang. it's entirely possiable losses where LIGHT on both sides. seiges when the battle is fully joined are BLOODY affairs. However depending on what is there, sometimes there's a lot of sitting around, and waiting for the artillery shells to do their jobs. If the Sisters didn't breach the wall (entirely possiable the Fang's a hard nut to crack by all accounts) it's ENTIRELY possiable that there wasn't a whole lot of fatalities.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yet, it took a Space Wolf to tell a Canoness that she did the wrong thing by accepting refugees. Double standards much?

Imperator Dei, but I hate Blood of Asaheim.

Luckily, we can just disregard it. Sounds like the author really had little idea about or regard for the Sisters anyway. I think the fact that the author writes a Canoness losing her faith due to a war really speaks volumes about how well he actually knows the SoB.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Since destroying rogue Astartes chapters is one of the sacred duties of the Adepta Sororitas

.

Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

Additionally, check the alter of was missions in your AS codex, specifically the one about killing the arch heretic. You'll see mention that the Sisters have destroyed multiple Marine Chapters.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Or :
Inquisitor sends specialist infiltrator to release some kind of virus weapon, kills all the humans of Fenris. Space wolves can not recruit anyone anymore. Job done !

Or, as Peregrine is so fond of saying, nuke the feth out of them!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Zebio, I think you've misunderstood something fundamental about Blanks.

Blunts can sense blankers. To a Psyker, they show up as a sucking hole in reality.

Hmmm, I know this, but I remember one of the stories showing that the Culuxus Assassins can hide it from them until it's too late.

Or I might be remembering wrong.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Zebio, I think you've misunderstood something fundamental about Blanks.

Blunts can sense blankers. To a Psyker, they show up as a sucking hole in reality.

Hmmm, I know this, but I remember one of the stories showing that the Culuxus Assassins can hide it from them until it's too late.

Or I might be remembering wrong.

You might be remembering the entry in the GK codex where it says "The terrible power of the Culexus is normally concealed by his animus speculum. However, when his target is near, the Culexus wills the animus speculum's eye to open. As the ghastly light boils forth, waves of anti-psychic energy flow across the battlefield, tearing the foe to bloody scraps of flesh"

 Mavlun wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Zebio, I think you've misunderstood something fundamental about Blanks.

Blunts can sense blankers. To a Psyker, they show up as a sucking hole in reality.

Hmmm, I know this, but I remember one of the stories showing that the Culuxus Assassins can hide it from them until it's too late.

Or I might be remembering wrong.

You might be remembering the entry in the GK codex where it says "The terrible power of the Culexus is normally concealed by his animus speculum. However, when his target is near, the Culexus wills the animus speculum's eye to open. As the ghastly light boils forth, waves of anti-psychic energy flow across the battlefield, tearing the foe to bloody scraps of flesh"

That's it! Thank you.

I mean they aren't exactly front facing assassins like the Eversor, they usually prefer to get close to a main target (psyker), and then fight. If they can't get close enough how can they do their damage?

If psykers could sense them so easily, they wouldn't be a very effective temple.

 Troike wrote:
Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

Thanks.

 Troike wrote:
Or, as Peregrine is so fond of saying, nuke the feth out of them!

Well, it all boils down to whether you want to destroy it discretely, or if you would rather make an example out of them. If you want to destroy them but not openly,, Celestian Lions-style, virus attack (or any other way to destroy their recruitment stock) is the way to go. If you would rather make an example, nuke the planet into oblivion. Fenris is no use anyway, too harsh weather to make a good hive-world, agri-world or forge-world.


Alternatively, there is this solution :
http://www.flashgitz.net/2012/10/the-fenrisian-bane.html

Me, I'd direct my Inquisitorial resources to create some kind of genophage, and introduce it, via Rogue Trader or other, seemingly-legit means, to the atmosphere of Fenris.

Then wait. As the native stock dies off, the Space Wolves lose their ability to create new members of the Chapter... time itself will do the deed, and none need be the wiser.

I'd do that and send a few BS:8 ''grot'' snipers to snipe the leadership of the Wolves off.

Just for giggles thou, think about the consequences.

Your Inquisition virus bombs the population of Fenris. So yeah, now SW can't recruit anymore. Or they just Extermanatis Fenris as a whole. Now, what about the wolves that were not planet side. Every chapter has eyes and ears of their own, there is no way the Wolves would not be able to know how and why such actions happened.

So now the heads of the Great Companies that survived, do the unthinkable. They go to war against the Inquisition. And in truth, war is what Space Marines do best. How many inquisitors will sleep well at night knowing that some of the bravest most fierce warriors of all of man and a chapter known for big risk, bigger reward tactics are now gunning for them out of revenge. To hell with saving face, to hell with reputation and honor. Pure hatred and bloody revenge are the only thing on the minds of men bred, enhanced, and armed for war.

And why would any of the other chapters show loyalty to the Inquistion knowing that their own Gene seed is as flawed as those of the Sons of Russ? I dare say few would willfully help protect the Inquisition. Because its clear that the Inquisition has no loyalty to those who have faithfully served.

How freekin scary is that?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now lets take it up a notch. The warp being a fickle mistress and how linear time doesn't really exist there, there is also the prophecy. The one where Russ promises to return for the Wolftime. (Much like Ragnarok) its the time for the final battle. He will return when the SW are at their end.

Well, now some Inquisitor has brought the end, so out of the Warp comes Russ with his Chapter/legion whomever he took with him into the warp. What the hell is the Inquisition supposed to do now that there is a living Primarch back and extremely pissed off at that. Who by all accounts, and rightfully so, is not going to play nice because this is the Wolftime and failure means the destruction of everything.

The Inquisition knows about prophecy, sorcery, fortunetelling and what not. Sure it might be a billion to one chance that it might be true. But this is the Grim Dark. Billion to one (especially if its bad news for you) happen with surprising regularity. How many are really willing to take that risk? The last one that even thought of going against the wolves got his head chopped off for this troubles, and that wasn't even a drop in the bucket of what it would mean to bring about the Wolftime.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Just for giggles thou, think about the consequences.

Your Inquisition virus bombs the population of Fenris. So yeah, now SW can't recruit anymore. Or they just Extermanatis Fenris as a whole. Now, what about the wolves that were not planet side. Every chapter has eyes and ears of their own, there is no way the Wolves would not be able to know how and why such actions happened.

So now the heads of the Great Companies that survived, do the unthinkable. They go to war against the Inquisition. And in truth, war is what Space Marines do best. How many inquisitors will sleep well at night knowing that some of the bravest most fierce warriors of all of man and a chapter known for big risk, bigger reward tactics are now gunning for them out of revenge. To hell with saving face, to hell with reputation and honor. Pure hatred and bloody revenge are the only thing on the minds of men bred, enhanced, and armed for war.

And why would any of the other chapters show loyalty to the Inquistion knowing that their own Gene seed is as flawed as those of the Sons of Russ? I dare say few would willfully help protect the Inquisition. Because its clear that the Inquisition has no loyalty to those who have faithfully served.

How freekin scary is that?

Faithfully served seems rather odd coming from SW, not to mention the fact that even a wild mutt will get cut down if they act like a rabid dpg. Everyone knows a first founding chapter can fall, whether to chaos or destruction. It's less their gene seed thats an issue rather then their loyalty. Others will likely just cut them down because they have severed quite a few ties with some of their own Loyalist brethren.

Course the SW will win, when it comes to plot armor they firmly grasp it.

Or should they show loyalty for those found chapters who have fallen to chaos?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Faithfully served seems rather odd coming from SW, not to mention the fact that even a wild mutt will get cut down if they act like a rabid dpg. Everyone knows a first founding chapter can fall, whether to chaos or destruction. It's less their gene seed thats an issue rather then their loyalty. Others will likely just cut them down because they have severed quite a few ties with some of their own Loyalist brethren.

Course the SW will win, when it comes to plot armor they firmly grasp it.

Or should they show loyalty for those found chapters who have fallen to chaos?

Those that fell to Chaos fell over 10,000 years ago and have spent those last 10,000 years trying their best to destroy the IOM. Yeah, no loyalty there. The Wolves and all current First Founding chapters have fought vigilantly, tirelessly, and selflessly for 10,000 years trying to keep the IOM from destruction. No real comparison if you ask me.

Yeah, the Inquisition got their toes stepped on. It would be impossible for any autonomous organization to not bend/break their rules every once in a while. The important part is to be able to play nice when needed and be a much greater force of good than that of one of disruption. So now you need to weigh 10,000 years of service vs lets say 300 incidences of not playing nice. So that's one infraction in every 33 years, and for the other 32.99 times of those years those same men sacrifice everything to keep us safe.

People act like these action happen on a monthly basis. They don't, they are few and far in between and most Inquisitors probably don't live long enough to witness more than just a handful and spend every moment in between thankful that they are out there giving the finger to all the enemys of the IOM.

GreyChaos wrote:
I wouldn't say the SW won the battle. A truce was called, and Grimnar should be thankful for that. He was essentially going on a last charge to deal as much damage as he could before he and his brothers were wiped out. If Bjorn had not intervened the remaining inquisitorial, naval and Red Hunter's forces would have wiped out the meager SW fleet and destroyed Fenris.

Mind sourcing this for me? I don't recall the Codex saying that.

Now we have to ignore table top performance. In GW fluff, a handful of SM can passify an entire planet. Not just any feral planet, but ones that have their own millitia, gorilla fighters, air force, etc. So now you want to remove 400 marines? Due to the way GW has it written up, it is just not possible. Those 400 marines can and would kill trillions of guardsmen without blinking. All weapons save heavy ordnance just bounces off their armor, and even then that ordnance had better hit the guy on the head directly or there is still a good chance he will live.

The grim dark of the 40K universe has no concept of logistics and real numbers. They make everything so much over the top or fanciful or awe inspiring that when talking fluff, you have to grudgingly accept it at face value. Its entirely possible that the Fang is just that impossible to assault. Fenris with this shamanistic ties to the warp and its beliefs might just defend itself (I'm talking the planet itself here) against any foreign agent like a genocidal virus. Maybe there is antigens in the atmosphere, who knows? Its entirely possible that entire legions of guard mean zilch in a conflict involving loyalist marines.

GW has written the fluff to such extremes that unfortunately if you respect any of it, you have to respect all of it, regardless of how messed up it actually is.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Now we have to ignore table top performance. In GW fluff, a handful of SM can passify an entire planet. Not just any feral planet, but ones that have their own millitia, gorilla fighters, air force, etc. So now you want to remove 400 marines? Due to the way GW has it written up, it is just not possible. Those 400 marines can and would kill trillions of guardsmen without blinking. All weapons save heavy ordnance just bounces off their armor, and even then that ordnance had better hit the guy on the head directly or there is still a good chance he will live.

The grim dark of the 40K universe has no concept of logistics and real numbers. They make everything so much over the top or fanciful or awe inspiring. So when talking fluff, you have to grudgingly accept it at face value. Its entirely possible that the Fang is just that impossible to assault. Fenris with this shamanistic ties to the warp and its beliefs might just defend itself (I'm talking the planet itself here) against any foreign agent like a genocidal virus. Its entirely possible that entire legions of guard mean zilch in a conflict involving loyalist marines.

GW has written the fluff to such extremes that unfortunately if you respect any of it, you have to respect all of it, regardless of how messed up it actually is.

Not really, they've said before that if inconsistency mix up, it's propaganda, mislead writers, or otherwise.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Just for giggles thou, think about the consequences.

Your Inquisition virus bombs the population of Fenris. So yeah, now SW can't recruit anymore. Or they just Extermanatis Fenris as a whole.

Regardless that has wiped out the Wolves since they are said to be unable to produce stable neophytes from other planets's natives, so even if SW does turn traitor, it isn't going to deny the Inquisition from achieving their primary objective; it'd be somewhere ironic tho, considering what will happen within the EoT with the Thousand Sons and such...

 Jayden63 wrote:
Now lets take it up a notch. The warp being a fickle mistress and how linear time doesn't really exist there, there is also the prophecy. The one where Russ promises to return for the Wolftime. (Much like Ragnarok) its the time for the final battle. He will return when the SW are at their end.

One can simply dismiss that as mere myth; though a Daemon Primarch Russ? -- it would be rather interesting.


As OP has already established, the "war" is supposed to be strictly between the Inquisition and the SW, without external supports (I could argue that, in such case, the only army under arms of the Inquisition can only be the Inquisitors themselves, their acolytes, and entourages, since all of there military resources, including their chamber militants, are of the various other Imperial Forces; Exterminatus is typically carried out by the Imperial Navy, but is still viable if they manage to musters the entirety of their blackships, or with just a virus bomb. Minotaur answers to the HLoT, which technically doesn't have to unleash the Minotaurs if are asked to; Assassins are, naturally, of the Officio Assassinorum -- the inquisition technically has only one vote in this matter. But this is pushing it)

Providing that the Inquisition is absolutely determined to exterminate the Wolves (thus neglecting all "benifits" their status as a first founding loyalist chapter supposedly carries), they will achieve it for the most part, albeit not without the risk of a few Great Companies managing to escape the cull; but the SW will be denied recovery, since either way they'll lose their homeworld, and therefore are left awaiting the inevitable extinction much the same way as the Celestial Lions.

That was the point of the Inquisition to begin with, while not being known for making the best of decisions, they will take whatever is necessary to achieving what they deemed is for the better of the Imperium. And as much as I like the wolves, they are in no way capable of holding out against the entire Imperium.

More of a problem with all of this: A Space Marine Chapter is a very valuable resource to the Imperium, not to mention that they'll usually have quite a bit of political capital around. An Inquisitor who is willing to put his neck out to take on a Space Marine Chapter had better be damn sure he's got ironclad and irrefutable proof of serious heretical activities, saying "I don't like the colour of their Rhinos" or "They don't seem to stick to the letter of the Codex" isn't honestly enough to sacrifice assets wiping out another asset.

Bottom line: They could, but unless the Space Wolves were acting drastically out of character and massacring Imperial civilians to paint bloody eight-pointed stars all over things or something like that they wouldn't be able to pull together the backing to do anything about it.

 Jayden63 wrote:

Now lets take it up a notch. The warp being a fickle mistress and how linear time doesn't really exist there, there is also the prophecy. The one where Russ promises to return for the Wolftime. (Much like Ragnarok) its the time for the final battle. He will return when the SW are at their end.

Well, now some Inquisitor has brought the end, so out of the Warp comes Russ with his Chapter/legion whomever he took with him into the warp. What the hell is the Inquisition supposed to do now that there is a living Primarch back and extremely pissed off at that. Who by all accounts, and rightfully so, is not going to play nice because this is the Wolftime and failure means the destruction of everything.

Lets do this. The Imperium needs its Primarchs back, and such a great hero, who knows that sometimes Chapters need to be purged (having been the executioner himself) would surely see reason and side with our righteous Imperial cause!

I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

Look up the Celesial Lions.

There's less than a company left, all the apothecaries are gone and most of the leadership, too.

If anything, the Celestial Lions reinforce my theory. The Inquistion tired to wipe them out without officially declaring for them, then The Black Templars stepped in, saved the last of them and put them under protection while they rebuilt. The Wolves are far too hot headed to be treated like the Lions were, they would have hit back and rallied those that they could count on as Allies. A covert attempt to wipe them out would only strengthen the Wolves position against the Inquistion, who would look cowardly and treacherous. The only way the Inquistion could risk an attack on them was if the Wolves were directly linked with Chaos, which isn't likely to ever happen.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

Ah, this conversation again.

Firstly, the Badab War was hardly a typical situation. The Space Marine Chapter in that case was in control of a whole system, and had the support of PDFs and other Marine Chapters. That's a whole other deal from purging a single Marine Chapter.

Now, as for Chapters in general, the Imperium has no qualms about purging those. As I noted above, it is one of the duties of the SoB to purge rogue Chapters, and their 6E codex notes that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters too. Chapters aren't untouchable, the Imperiun isn't scared to take them down if need be. They've had ample opportunities to observe that rogue Marines are bad news, so they need to be able to deal with rogue chapters quickly and firmly.

As for the Wolves in general, they too don't seem to be as untouchable as you're making out. The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Wolves right in their home system, and kept it up for three weeks. Nobody came to help the Wolves, and there were apparently no reprecussions against the Ecclesiarchy for their attack. If the Wolves really were so ubntouchable, you would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the first place, and would have gotten dire punishments afterwards.

Oh, also, I don't see the Templars being particularly eager to jump to the aid of the Wolves. The Templars are adherent believers in the Imperial Creed, and the Wolves are anti-authoritarian and suspected of pagan worship.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

I think I said a few times now that the question concerns only the Inquisition + Whatever assets the Inquisition would have access to vs. the Space Wolves without outside interference.

Also, an "all out civil war" between a few chapters and the IoM would mean the utter annihilation of those chapters as far as I can grasp.

Also, this:

 Troike wrote:


As for the Wolves in general, they too don't seem to be as untouchable as you're making out. The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Wolves right in their home system, and kept it up for three weeks. Nobody came to help the Wolves, and there were apparently no reprecussions against the Ecclesiarchy for their attack. If the Wolves really were so ubntouchable, you would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the first place, and would have gotten dire punishments afterwards.

 Troike wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

Ah, this conversation again.

Firstly, the Badab War was hardly a typical situation. The Space Marine Chapter in that case was in control of a whole system, and had the support of PDFs and other Marine Chapters. That's a whole other deal from purging a single Marine Chapter.

Now, as for Chapters in general, the Imperium has no qualms about purging those. As I noted above, it is one of the duties of the SoB to purge rogue Chapters, and their 6E codex notes that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters too. Chapters aren't untouchable, the Imperiun isn't scared to take them down if need be. They've had ample opportunities to observe that rogue Marines are bad news, so they need to be able to deal with rogue chapters quickly and firmly.

As for the Wolves in general, they too don't seem to be as untouchable as you're making out. The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Wolves right in their home system, and kept it up for three weeks. Nobody came to help the Wolves, and there were apparently no reprecussions against the Ecclesiarchy for their attack. If the Wolves really were so ubntouchable, you would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the first place, and would have gotten dire punishments afterwards.

Oh, also, I don't see the Templars being particularly eager to jump to the aid of the Wolves. The Templars are adherent believers in the Imperial Creed, and the Wolves are anti-authoritarian and suspected of pagan worship.

Don't forget the Astral Claws had quite a few Forge Worlds and other such devices as controlling an entire system, they even had the side of the local Mechanicus in that sector.

Fenris is..Fenris, an angry death world where people run around in pitiful nomad conditions.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I don't think the Carcharodons would fight the Space Wolves as they seem only interested in fighting true enemies of the Imperium and would not be simply summoned at the behest of an Inquisitor.

Then the Space Sharks might find themselves not getting their fleet resupplied or turned away from Imperial Naval stations. A Chapter refuses a request from the Inquisition at its peril... even if they have a valid, good reason to do so.

You mean that if they refused the Inquisition they'd find themselves in the exact same position they were before refusing the request?

If a Chapter needs to be knocked off, the Minotaurs are the go-to Chapter of the High Lords. They're the cute new boyfriend you have who opens jars. The Space Sharks are the mechanic ex you don't like who rebuilds transmissions in his spare time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moreover, I think we're ignoring the true threat of facing the Inquisition; being drowned in a sea of space orangutans wielding experimental technology they've personally 'improved.'

 Jayden63 wrote:
So now the heads of the Great Companies that survived, do the unthinkable. They go to war against the Inquisition.

Uh ? And what next ? They go to war against night, so that it is always day, or something ?
It is not really easy to war against some covert, extremely secretive organization of loosely related individuals. Where would the Wolves attack ? Just wander randomly looking for an Inquisitor, the way the Dark Angels do for the Fallen ? A ten thousands years “war” like that, by specialists, lead to, well, not very good results. How do you expect the not really detective-inclined wolves to do any better ?

 Jayden63 wrote:
How many inquisitors will sleep well at night knowing that some of the bravest most fierce warriors of all of man and a chapter known for big risk, bigger reward tactics are now gunning for them out of revenge.

I am sure most Inquisitors do not like the idea of being hunted by Grey Knights.
Or are you speaking about the Space Wolves here ? I am pretty sure no Inquisitor, or close enough it makes no matter, fears the Wolves. It is not like they were famous for investigation and man-hunting !

 Jayden63 wrote:
What the hell is the Inquisition supposed to do now that there is a living Primarch back and extremely pissed off at that.

Well, Draigo will just carve some obscene insult on Russ liver or something, then. Making graffiti on Primarchs' organ is his favorite hobby .

 Jayden63 wrote:
The Wolves and all current First Founding chapters have fought vigilantly, tirelessly, and selflessly for 10,000 years trying to keep the IOM from destruction.

Do you mean that Dark Angels fought selflessly for the Imperium ?
.
The fact no first founding chapter fell to chaos as a whole does not mean that there has not been regularly marines from those chapters that fell. So, not really a good argument.

 Jayden63 wrote:
In GW fluff, […] Those 400 marines can and would kill trillions of guardsmen without blinking.

Or some Inquisitor will be able to best them in close combat and then his assistant will melta them into ashes. Comes from official fluff . Not even mentioning what Marbo would to do them…

 Jayden63 wrote:
All weapons save heavy ordnance just bounces off their armor, and even then that ordnance had better hit the guy on the head directly or there is still a good chance he will live.

Melta is not heavy ordnance, and it does not bounces off power armor. It vaporizes marines. Cyclonic torpedo are another solution too .

The fact no first founding chapter fell to chaos as a whole does not mean that there has not been regularly marines from those chapters that fell. So, not really a good argument.

Infact it's the defining story of Huron where he managed to claim quite a few Space Wolves as part of the Red Corsairs as they betrayed their allies, along with a fair number of equipment with the Wolf of Fenris.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Just for giggles thou, think about the consequences.

Your Inquisition virus bombs the population of Fenris. So yeah, now SW can't recruit anymore. Or they just Extermanatis Fenris as a whole. Now, what about the wolves that were not planet side. Every chapter has eyes and ears of their own, there is no way the Wolves would not be able to know how and why such actions happened.

The eyes-and-ears of the Wolves are mostly in the Fang, since it's a massive space-dock/manufacturing mountain/defense platform. Sure, there are people who love the Wolves across the Imperium... but these people don't work for the Inquisition, and would have no viable means of ever learning about what happened half a galaxy away. These people also do not outrank the Inquisition as a whole. Only the God-Emperor has that kind of authority.

So now the heads of the Great Companies that survived, do the unthinkable. They go to war against the Inquisition. And in truth, war is what Space Marines do best. How many inquisitors will sleep well at night knowing that some of the bravest most fierce warriors of all of man and a chapter known for big risk, bigger reward tactics are now gunning for them out of revenge. To hell with saving face, to hell with reputation and honor. Pure hatred and bloody revenge are the only thing on the minds of men bred, enhanced, and armed for war.

Woo. You've got... 500 dudes. Maybe fifteen ships, if we are to assume that every GC has its own Battle Barge and its two escort vessels. What are they going to do, attack Terra?

And why would any of the other chapters show loyalty to the Inquistion knowing that their own Gene seed is as flawed as those of the Sons of Russ? I dare say few would willfully help protect the Inquisition. Because its clear that the Inquisition has no loyalty to those who have faithfully served.

Because other Chapters haven't let Chaos-tainted people flee hither and yon into the Imperium to sow the seeds of Corruption, plain and simple. This is not "faithful service", this is the Wolves having not a single fething clue what they are talking about getting their panties in a twist because these humans, all of whom could be potentially carrying Chaos Taint, if not already a clever Daemonhost, were going to be executed for the greater good of the Imperium. This is treason and is in direct opposition to things that the Emperor is known to have stood against: The Knowledge that Chaos Exists.

At Armageddon, the Wolves betrayed both the Emperor and the trust that he placed in Russ.

How freekin scary is that?

Not very when you consider the number of Chapters the Inquisition have been known to eradicate in the various GW publications, not even counting the ones from other sources.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now lets take it up a notch. The warp being a fickle mistress and how linear time doesn't really exist there, there is also the prophecy. The one where Russ promises to return for the Wolftime. (Much like Ragnarok) its the time for the final battle. He will return when the SW are at their end.

Well, now some Inquisitor has brought the end, so out of the Warp comes Russ with his Chapter/legion whomever he took with him into the warp. What the hell is the Inquisition supposed to do now that there is a living Primarch back and extremely pissed off at that. Who by all accounts, and rightfully so, is not going to play nice because this is the Wolftime and failure means the destruction of everything.

When Russ finds out that his boys were letting potential Daemonhosts go flitting off to the far corners of the Imperium, potentially costing billions of human lives and souls (and instead requiring the Exterminatus of these worlds, which then only cost lives), basically being meat-headed barbarians rather than the cunning, strategic thinkers the Wolves are supposedly famed for being... pretty sure someone is getting spanked, and it isn't going to be the Inquisition.

The Inquisition knows about prophecy, sorcery, fortunetelling and what not. Sure it might be a billion to one chance that it might be true. But this is the Grim Dark. Billion to one (especially if its bad news for you) happen with surprising regularity. How many are really willing to take that risk? The last one that even thought of going against the wolves got his head chopped off for this troubles, and that wasn't even a drop in the bucket of what it would mean to bring about the Wolftime.

This also assumes that Russ does not come out of the Warp stark raving mad and frothing at the mouth with tentacles and a flaming skull head. I believe it was Lorgar who implied that Russ' current state is a fate worse than death. It also assumes that the destruction of Fenris is what counts as "the Wolf-Time". Lastly.... Russ only knows 1 of the current Space Wolves. Just one. And that one guy doesn't look anything like he did the last time Russ saw him. Russ might be disgusted by the current disportment of the Space Wolves, He will damn sure recognize the symbol of Malcador the Sigillite, though, and should remember that man was the Emperor's left hand... and should also remember that it was by edict of the Emperor that the Inquisition exists (whether or not the actual words spoken founding them came from the Emperor himself or Malcador, the latter spoke with the former's authority, and so, in the end, it does not matter.)

KorPhaeron77 wrote: The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

You mean like allowing Chaos-tainted civilians to live and infect other Imperial Worlds, which causes daemons to manifest and Daemonhosts to run amok and open Warp Gates that stages a mini-Black Crusade on Ultramar or Rynn's World or something?

 Troike wrote:

Firstly, the Badab War was hardly a typical situation. The Space Marine Chapter in that case was in control of a whole system, and had the support of PDFs and other Marine Chapters. That's a whole other deal from purging a single Marine Chapter.

I don't think that was an unusual situation. First off you've got to consider that no Space Marine Chapter exists in an isolated political vacuum, they've got planetary leadership, Navy and Guard commanders, other Space Marines, Inquisitors, and the like who they may have bailed out in the past who may owe them favours, some may even have more formalized relationships. Second, remember the difficulty in long-range communication inherent in the Imperium; a Space Marine Chapter's allies are likely to be people nearby they work with frequently, while the Inquisitor can't exactly call up Terra to enforce his authority on a lark if the local Navy post commander doesn't think he's got enough to justify bombing Fenris. Third, you've got to have an Inquisitor who's actually motivated to stick his neck out to pull something like this; if he doesn't have enough backing (which he needs evidence of wrongdoing to get) his head is first on the chopping block when the Space Wolves come looking for someone to blame for a failed assault on their homeworld. Fourthly, Space Marines (with some exceptions) tend to stick together; if you go to Lord Dante and tell him "Hey, dude, I want to burn Fenris because the Space Wolves like their damn wolves too much," his first question is going to be "Okay, and when you're done with them how long is it going to take you to come bomb Baal because of our whole unstoppable blood rage thing?" He's got every incentive to fight alongside the Space Wolves and none to fight for your purge-happy Inquisitor. You're going to need something on the Chapter to convince the rest of the Imperium that blowing them all to hell is a preferable option, and "they've got wolf shrines! They ride wolves! They throw their initiates into combat with jump packs!" isn't going to cut it. Even when you've got all that, as was the case during the Badab War, it wasn't enough to convince the Astral Claws' allies since they trusted their friends more than they trusted the Inquisition and a war started over it.

Bottom line: The Imperium isn't a monolithic entity with clean and clear-cut rule of bizarrely draconian law in which you can slaughter a regiment of your army because they don't obey uniform regulations. It's more akin to the later-years Holy Roman Empire wherein the Electors (Inquisitors, planetary governors, Space Marine Chapter Masters, Navy admirals, Guard generals, and other figures of importance) pretty much run their own fiefdoms and the Emperor (in this case the Emperor) has very little central authority to make them do something they don't want to do unless there's an obvious external threat.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't think that was an unusual situation.

It really was. Huron had an entire sector under his direct command, and several close allies. Meanwhile, other Chapters have indeed been wiped out. If they're all so difficult, then why is the Badab war regarded as so exceptional?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
First off you've got to consider that no Space Marine Chapter exists in an isolated political vacuum, they've got planetary leadership, Navy and Guard commanders, other Space Marines, Inquisitors, and the like who they may have bailed out in the past who may owe them favours, some may even have more formalized relationships.

That's all well and good, butn if a Chapter screws up in some way, not all of those "friends" will be so supportive, and few would be willing to risk being branded traitors or heretics by aiding a Chapter against the Inquisition.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Second, remember the difficulty in long-range communication inherent in the Imperium; a Space Marine Chapter's allies are likely to be people nearby they work with frequently, while the Inquisitor can't exactly call up Terra to enforce his authority on a lark if the local Navy post commander doesn't think he's got enough to justify bombing Fenris.

The Inquisitior doesn't need to call Terra to ask for permission. He's an Inquisitor. If he suspects treachery, he has to ask. Again, the Imperium is not afraid to deal with traitorous Marines. The local forces, such as the Navy, would have to obey the Inquisitor anyway. That's one of the main powers of the Inquisition.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Third, you've got to have an Inquisitor who's actually motivated to stick his neck out to pull something like this; if he doesn't have enough backing (which he needs evidence of wrongdoing to get) his head is first on the chopping block when the Space Wolves come looking for someone to blame for a failed assault on their homeworld.

The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Fenrisian system for three weeks and the Wolves didn't try to tear down the Ecclesiarchy. Likewise, the Ecclesiarchy was able to do this and get away with it, and was able to act on suspicions and an attack on their people. The Wolves aren't that untouchable.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Fourthly, Space Marines (with some exceptions) tend to stick together

Nobody came to help them in the three weeks that the Sisters were attacking the Wolves right in their home turf. Single Marine Chapters have also been wiped out in the fluff. It's not a case of attacking one Chapter will suddenly result in other Chapters backing them up.

GK are a minor asset. The Inquisition can call upon the Imperial Navy and the IG to use whatever force is required to put the doggies down.

The Fang is strong, but not strong enought to defeat a battlefleet. After they lose, here comes exterminatus...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
if you go to Lord Dante and tell him "Hey, dude, I want to burn Fenris because the Space Wolves like their damn wolves too much," his first question is going to be "Okay, and when you're done with them how long is it going to take you to come bomb Baal because of our whole unstoppable blood rage thing?" He's got every incentive to fight alongside the Space Wolves and none to fight for your purge-happy Inquisitor.

Dante owes the Grey Knights a favor, they killed Ka'Bandha in a joint force with the Blood Angels. Dante was so happy to comply with the Grey Knights that he agreed for his entire force to be put to the extremely dangerous (sometimes fatal) memory wipe process when the deal was made. Not to mention the incident between the Space Wolves and Flesh Tearers. Or that Space Wolves actually considered attempting to kill Sanguinius (which speaks volumes about how low their IQs are). Sooooo I dunno about that whole Dante refusing situation.

You don't go to Dante and say that, you go to Dante and say, "Hey, the Space Wolves homeworld has fallen to the worship of deities that are not the God-Emperor, and are most likely Khornate daemon-princes and the like. We tried to send the Church in to investigate, but the Wolves would not let them land, shot up a bunch of Sisters, in fact, so we're pretty sure it's Daemon-Worship Central down there.

The GK are going in from the West, you come in from the East. In nominae Imperator."

And then you flash your rosette and walk the feth away, because you're a Lord Inquisitor and he's just the Chapter Master of a Space Marine Chapter. Vaunted and honored, to be sure, but he does not outrank you, and you just gave him damn compelling evidence (and entirely true evidence, at that) that something effed-up is going on with the Wolves.

 Mavlun wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
if you go to Lord Dante and tell him "Hey, dude, I want to burn Fenris because the Space Wolves like their damn wolves too much," his first question is going to be "Okay, and when you're done with them how long is it going to take you to come bomb Baal because of our whole unstoppable blood rage thing?" He's got every incentive to fight alongside the Space Wolves and none to fight for your purge-happy Inquisitor.

Dante owes the Grey Knights a favor, they killed Ka'Bandha in a joint force with the Blood Angels. Dante was so happy to comply with the Grey Knights that he agreed for his entire force to be put to the extremely dangerous (sometimes fatal) memory wipe process when the deal was made. Not to mention the incident between the Space Wolves and Flesh Tearers. Or that Space Wolves actually considered attempting to kill Sanguinius (which speaks volumes about how low their IQs are). Sooooo I dunno about that whole Dante refusing situation.

Dante owes nothing to the Grey Knights, they offered the Blood Angels a chance to participate out of respect not because they wanted him to pay them back some day. You're off a bit on the Space Wolves considering trying to kill Sanguinius as well. Its not as if they just decided to go after him themselves, Malcador ordered them to watch Sanguinius to see whether or not he would betray the Emperor. If they had decided that he had indeed betrayed the Imperium they would have tried to kill him, but then so would any squad from any other legion.

I agree with you that Dante would not refuse an order from an Inquisitor to attack the Wolves, just putting my two cents in at the same time.

 Frazzled wrote:
GK are a minor asset. The Inquisition can call upon the Imperial Navy and the IG to use whatever force is required to put the doggies down.

The Fang is strong, but not strong enought to defeat a battlefleet. After they lose, here comes exterminatus...

You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years. Before the entire situation was cleared up when a single Great Company broke the siege.

The only thing you said that makes any sence is "Here comes exterminatus" and even then it is unlikely to ever happen.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
GK are a minor asset. The Inquisition can call upon the Imperial Navy and the IG to use whatever force is required to put the doggies down.

The Fang is strong, but not strong enought to defeat a battlefleet. After they lose, here comes exterminatus...

You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years. Before the entire situation was cleared up when a single Great Company broke the siege.

The only thing you said that makes any sence is "Here comes exterminatus" and even then it is unlikely to ever happen.

Which battle was this?

I think it was when the Apostate Cardinal Bucharis laid siege to Fenris, thinking it was just another Imperial planet with no idea he was picking on the Space Wolves.

Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

Any open fight will drag in the allies of both groups. The SW, while not having spent years building up to double chapter strength like the Astral Claws, do have other worlds nearby that they control or that owe them big time. I would assume most of the first founding chapters have 10,000 years of debts they can call in from hive worlds, forge worlds, etc. They also have special forces groups stationed on Terra, and allied chapters like the Raven Guard.

Plus, it isn't like an Inquisitor can just declare them traitors. If Inquisitor Bob shows up at the Cadian conclave and gives a big speech on "Oh the SW are all furries and must be destroyed!" most of the other inquisitors will just roll their eyes and one venerable one will take Bob aside for a stern talking too.

If Bob talks about how they opposed the GK purge, well half the other inquisitors may have also opposed it. It was of course a massive waste of lives and equipment, and directly the fault of the GK for letting the Changeling escape. Moreover the Wolves have been quite useful to the IOM, and are certainly more stable then the Space Sharks or Flesh Tearers. It would take major heresy to martial the resources to take down the wolves, so major it would advance the plot and thus won't happen.

You mean like when they didn't let Ecclesiarchy land, opened fire, killed an inquisitor and several GK, and had a war with the Inquisition?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

It was during the "Plague of Disbelief". When Bucharis was building up forces to attack Terra. But then had his armies broken by the SWs. Then only defeated on Chiros because the traitors didn't use they most destructive weapons. In a attempt to not scar the planet.

Bucharis, controlled space from "Near" Bakka in Segmentum Tempestus, through Segmentum Pacificus (including that segmentum's battle fleet) , into Segmentum Obscurus as far as Fenris and finally into Segmentum Solar as far as Gathalamor. To consider him a small threat to anything is ridiculous.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

It was during the "Plague of Disbelief". When Bucharis was building up forces to attack Terra. But then had his armies broken by the SWs. Then only defeated on Chiros because the traitors didn't use they most destructive weapons. In a attempt to not scar the planet.

Bucharis, controlled space from "Near" Bakka in Segmentum Tempestus, through Segmentum Pacificus (including that segmentum's battle fleet) , into Segmentum Obscurus as far as Fenris and finally into Segmentum Solar as far as Gathalamor. To consider him a small threat to anything is ridiculous.

His armies were defeated not by PDF, not by guard, but by the pristine paradise planets people posting potshots from the forests and the like. That's STILL giving them too much credit when their average soldier couldn't even beat that world as a result, the fact they needed orbital bombardment to win was ludicrous to begin with. His threat could've been great yes, but he was practically a jobber in 40k when you see how ineffective his campaign was aside from his naval capability.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

It was during the "Plague of Disbelief". When Bucharis was building up forces to attack Terra. But then had his armies broken by the SWs. Then only defeated on Chiros because the traitors didn't use they most destructive weapons. In a attempt to not scar the planet.

Bucharis, controlled space from "Near" Bakka in Segmentum Tempestus, through Segmentum Pacificus (including that segmentum's battle fleet) , into Segmentum Obscurus as far as Fenris and finally into Segmentum Solar as far as Gathalamor. To consider him a small threat to anything is ridiculous.

His armies were defeated not by PDF, not by guard, but by the pristine paradise planets people posting potshots from the forests and the like. That's STILL giving them too much credit when their average soldier couldn't even beat that world as a result, the fact they needed orbital bombardment to win was ludicrous to begin with. His threat could've been great yes, but he was practically a jobber in 40k when you see how ineffective his campaign was aside from his naval capability.

So the British military must not have been a threat to anyone because they lost the US' revolutionary war. Who cares if they established a huge Empire and beat Napoleon.

You sir are grossly under estemating hunters/sharp shooter on their home turf. Especially when they are not engaging in pitched battles.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:he was practically a jobber in 40k when you see how ineffective his campaign was aside from his naval capability

Yes, after his armies where broken fighting the SWs. Before that he conqured a huge area of the Imperium.

 Stonerhino wrote:


You sir are grossly under estemating hunters/sharp shooter on their home turf. Especially when they are not engaging in pitched battles.

This. Look up the White Death some time.

The inquisition are stupid traitors.

Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they aren't.

They don't instantly explode in showers of blood to boltguns unlike Guardsmen, and can return firepower in the same category since they also have their own types of human bolters. That is probably why they are sent.

Guardsmen are sent against almost everything. That does not mean that IG is exceptionally good against almost everything. Slightly apples and oranges, but marines are rare and traitor chapters double so.

Do we actually have any sources younger than most of the playerbase that says just how good they actually are at it?

Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they aren't.

They don't instantly explode in showers of blood to boltguns unlike Guardsmen, and can return firepower in the same category since they also have their own types of human bolters. That is probably why they are sent.

Guardsmen are sent against almost everything. That does not mean that IG is exceptionally good against almost everything. Slightly apples and oranges, but marines are rare and traitor chapters double so.

Do we actually have any sources younger than most of the playerbase that says just how good they actually are at it?

Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

Minotaurs were created because Sisters don't explicitly obey the Lords of Terra, they follow the Church and it's doctrines. The Minotaurs are their pet's who specialize specifically in killing marines because that's the best way of making sure they never get 'buddy buddy' brothers with the others, and because they can have a force ready to deal with SM.

I can only assume the Minotaurs were created because the Administratum wanted a force they could control directly, rather than having to play bs political games with the Ecclesiarchy.

As for sources younger than the playerbase, how about the most recent Codex: Adepta Sororitas? :p Although I guess it doesn't give numbers.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they serve two different organizations. The Sororitas are a militant part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Minotaurs answer to the High Lords of Terra.

 Orblivion wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they serve two different organizations. The Sororitas are a militant part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Minotaurs answer to the High Lords of Terra.

Isn't the Ecclesiarch a High Lord of Terra anyway?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Isn't the Ecclesiarch a High Lord of Terra anyway?

Yes, but he might still play his cards for the Ecclesiarchy (just as the others might be suspected of favoring their own organisations). A dedicated marine Chapter is useful if the Ecclesiarch doesn't want to commit SoB, or some other High Lord has a problem with it. Politics.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they serve two different organizations. The Sororitas are a militant part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Minotaurs answer to the High Lords of Terra.

Isn't the Ecclesiarch a High Lord of Terra anyway?

Yes, and so is the Abbess Prioris of the Adepta Sororitas. That's why the politics are necessary.

Put another way, the Minotaurs can be deployed as long as seven of the twelve agree. It doesn't matter which seven. In order to deploy the Adepta Sororitas, you have to convince both the Abbess and the Ecclesiarch specifically.

 Stonerhino wrote:
You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years.

Bucharis forces were not IG. They were thugs enlisted by the cardinal.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

If those are one-hundred-strong ordo minoris, then they are pretty efficient, considering how they do not have any implant and are still able to kill almost twice their number in marines.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years.

Bucharis forces were not IG. They were thugs enlisted by the cardinal.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

If those are one-hundred-strong ordo minoris, then they are pretty efficient, considering how they do not have any implant and are still able to kill almost twice their number in marines.

They're only a hundred? Fair enough, I thought they were 1K or so.

Then amend my post to sixty orders.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
They're only a hundred?

No, they are anything between 1 up to 1000 (or maybe even more). They are not like Chapters, they have no specified number. That is because they are not an independent entity, more of an administrative division. If you want to defend a shrine that can be defended by ten sisters, you do not need to send in more than ten sisters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That is probably why they are sent.

No. They are sent because they are effective. AS codex states that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters, and that's right here in 6th Edition. They're not just sent because they happen to be able to put up a fight, they're sent because they've proven then can do it. Indeed, a WD that was actually about Rogue Marine Chapters said this:

Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

So it's not just SoB fluff bigging the SoB up, it's there in Space Marine fluff too.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

I know you'll probably grumble about it becuase it's old, but Citadel Journal #49 had a bit that dealt with how Sisters go about fighting Marine Chapters:

"Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. These Strike Forces are composed of the very best the Adepta Sororitas can field, and are equipped to an even higher standard than is usual within the Orders Militant. Led by a senior member of the Ordo Hereticus, the force can call upon the aid of the Imperial Navy, from whose troop transports they can deploy using the small numbers of drop pods each of the Orders Militant maintains exclusively for these operations."

So, it's not just a standard head-on attack as many people seem to assume, but a surgical strike on the Chapter's leadership, before presumably finishing off the rest. Also note the part that calls the Sisters possibly the only force other than Space Marines capable of successfully taking down a Chapter. Whilst old, this source seems to line up with the mindset that GW has maintained to the present, that Sisters are fully capable of fighting Marines.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Then amend my post to sixty orders.

Wait... So you're saying that you think it would take 6000 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines? Have to say, don't really agree with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No, they are anything between 1 up to 1000

Actually, AS codex puts the minimum at "barely a hundred". Don't think they'd have a Minor Order with just one Sister. Though that would be pretty funny. P

Ok then, between 8 to 1000 !

No, I did not say that it would take 6000 sisters to kill 1000 Marines (Neither did I say it doesn't, though, I won't dig into numbers) but I said that IF it does take that many, it would not be very effective. A mission can be successful, but that does not mean that it was effective. The sources you show say that they are one of the few who can succeed at all- but at what cost?

Mind you, the oldness of it still makes me bat 3-4 eyebrows at it. I am personally quite reluctant to take the old stuff as final word things, but it is interesting material, for sure. In fact, that very point is something that I suspect will prevent a consensus.

I pity you poor SoB players, actually- old stuff is almost all you have!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok then, between 8 to 1000 !

Heh. Now I'm tempted to paint up a Canoness and a single Battle Sister squad to run as allies, representing a very small but very enthusiastic Minor Order.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
No, I did not say that it would take 6000 sisters to kill 1000 Marines

Well, you did in that you said it would require 60 Orders of 100 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines. But okay,

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
but I said that IF it does take that many, it would not be very effective. A mission can be successful, but that does not mean that it was effective. The sources you show say that they are one of the few who can succeed at all- but at what cost?

You're assuming that the Sisters would take massive casualties whilst doing this. As the strikeforce article suggested, it doesn't seem to be a straight-up attack. Rather, the Sisters use a surgical strike to cripple the Chapter and then presumably go from there.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, the oldness of it still makes me bat 3-4 eyebrows at it. I am personally quite reluctant to take the old stuff as final word things, but it is interesting material, for sure.

But has GW said otherwise in the meantime? We've still got this statement that Sisters have wiped out entire Marine Chapters in 6th, so it would seem that GW is still sticking with the idea that Sisters can wipe out Marine Chapters. Therefore, it would seem that older fluff, back when the idea was explored in more depth, is still valid. I'd also not be surprised if other factions had had things explored back then that haven't really been touched upon since, so I doubt that the Sisters are the only ones who might need to reference older fluff to get elaboration on something.

 Troike wrote:

Well, you did in that you said it would require 60 Orders of 100 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines. But okay,

A hypothetical situation. Do not take it as some kind of statement, it was just an 'if' situation, and it's not one I am arguing for.

 Troike wrote:

You're assuming that the Sisters would take massive casualties whilst doing this. As the strikeforce article suggested, it doesn't seem to be a straight-up attack. Rather, the Sisters use a surgical strike to cripple the Chapter and then presumably go from there.

You're assuming they succeed. I'd assume at least a good few chapters to be smarter than to leave their high command vulnerable to an enemy that almost entirely lack snipers, drop pod equivalents, and so on and so forth. Who says a Celestian is superior to a Honour Guard?

 Troike wrote:
But has GW said otherwise in the meantime? We've still got this statement that Sisters have wiped out entire Marine Chapters in 6th, so it would seem that GW is still sticking with the idea that Sisters can wipe out Marine Chapters. Therefore, it would seem that older fluff, back when the idea was explored in more depth, is still valid. I'd also not be surprised if other factions had had things explored back then that haven't really been touched upon since, so I doubt that the Sisters are the only ones who might need to reference older fluff to get elaboration on something.

It's just my way of thinking- the older it is, the higher my eyebrow is raised. YMMV.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
No, I did not say that it would take 6000 sisters to kill 1000 Marines (Neither did I say it doesn't, though, I won't dig into numbers) but I said that IF it does take that many, it would not be very effective. A mission can be successful, but that does not mean that it was effective. The sources you show say that they are one of the few who can succeed at all- but at what cost?

Cost in lives can't be that high or the Sororitas would have ceased to exist long ago, given their ridiculously slow recruitments (it's faster to produce new Marines!)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, the oldness of it still makes me bat 3-4 eyebrows at it. I am personally quite reluctant to take the old stuff as final word things, but it is interesting material, for sure. In fact, that very point is something that I suspect will prevent a consensus.

Three to four eyebrows?! You are revealed, mutant! Burn!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I pity you poor SoB players, actually- old stuff is almost all you have!

Nope, nope, you don't get an opinion, you warp-spawned beast!

More seriously, the only way to go with this is to use the 'most recent example'.

Mind you, SM turning traitor is also very much a rare thing.

Not arguing that it is specifically 6000 (Or that SoB are alone, the Inquisition has many assets and Troike mentioned inquisitors) but you know.

And I gather 4000+ points of Chaos Marines, reach level 60 as Chaos Marines on Dawn of War II (Which I have like 1000 hours on), play as Chaos Marines a lot in Space Marine (I even have the Chaos DLC), but the mention of a third eyebrow is what gains me the ire of the Sisters?!

Now I imagine a bunch of Cult Chaos Marines dancing in front of SoB, but while this makes the SoB go all 'nope' 'saw nothing' 'coincidence', when a guy who has painted an extra eyebrow on his face appears they immediately reach for their meltaguns.

One of the earliest pieces of art shows a Sister shooting a Rainbow Warrior Marine dead.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Now I imagine a bunch of Cult Chaos Marines dancing in front of SoB, but while this makes the SoB go all 'nope' 'saw nothing' 'coincidence', when a guy who has painted an extra eyebrow on his face appears they immediately reach for their meltaguns.

Only rare in absolute terms, what is it, something like 15% of all Astartes chapters goes renegade these days? :p



Anyway, can you blame us? The good guys (lol) have names like 'Flesh Tearers', 'Malevolent' and 'Eviscerators'. How are we supposed to know that there's a loyalist under all those spikes and white armour?!

Psssht, Rainbow Warriors were hard enough! Think about it, it was a perfect name for a Slaanesh army!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You're assuming they succeed. I'd assume at least a good few chapters to be smarter than to leave their high command vulnerable to an enemy that almost entirely lack snipers, drop pod equivalents, and so on and so forth. Who says a Celestian is superior to a Honour Guard?

Didn't say the Sisters would always succeed, but apparently they've succeeded at it enough to be considered a go-to force to deal with a rogue Chapter. As for them actually fighting the Chapter's leadership, that source I mentioned actually notes that the Sisters have drop-pods. They were also actually able to field them in 2E. Additedly, even i might start to question that since, to my knowledge, it hasn't been referenced since, but it's there.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's just my way of thinking- the older it is, the higher my eyebrow is raised. YMMV.

I can understand where you're coming from. But, as I said, this sort of thing hasn't been touched upon for a while and hasn't really been contradicted. Also I think one has to cut the Sisters some degree of slack here, since their fluff hasn't had as much chance to grow and evolve since their 3E codex.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, SM turning traitor is also very much a rare thing.

Sure, but it's common enough that the Sisters alone have dealt with it multiple times, and are recognised as an effective response to it.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
(Or that SoB are alone, the Inquisition has many assets and Troike mentioned inquisitors) but you know.

While that source did indeed mention Inquisitors, it shoud be noted that it was back in 3E, when the Sisters were sharing a codex with the Inquisiton. Meanwhile, the other sources only mention the Sisters themselves in fighting Marine Chapters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And I gather 4000+ points of Chaos Marines, reach level 60 as Chaos Marines on Dawn of War II (Which I have like 1000 hours on), play as Chaos Marines a lot in Space Marine (I even have the Chaos DLC), but the mention of a third eyebrow is what gains me the ire of the Sisters?!

Well, if we were to accuse everyone with a Chaos army of heresy, we'd be overworked!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
One of the earliest pieces of art shows a Sister shooting a Rainbow Warrior Marine dead.

That was all the way back in RT. Apparently, it was also how the Sisters were first introduced.

 Troike wrote:
Heh. Now I'm tempted to paint up a Canoness and a single Battle Sister squad to run as allies, representing a very small but very enthusiastic Minor Order.

Well, rather let your Minor Order be commanded by a Sister Superior (or at least, a Sister Superior count-as). Have you ever tried a point-for-point comparison between a Chaos Lord and a Canoness ? It is hilarious.

 Troike wrote:
Well, you did in that you said it would require 60 Orders of 100 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines. But okay,

I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”.


[edit]Typed some message, went to play PoE, went back to publish message, felt like an idiot since the conversation had moved on while I was playing. Damn you Synergy ![/edit]

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”

Basically that, yes.

No sources who mention SoB purging chapters mention how many SoB actually are lost in such a conflict. SoB are few, for sure, but Marine traitors are rarer and the SoB can sustain massive losses in such operations and still exist.

Let's not assume too much yet.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”.

The SoB will certainly use everything they have if possible. They can't stand against the marines in close combat so overwhelming firepower has to be used. The classical minimum of 3-1 advantage in numbers for attacking, Imperial Navy support to drive off the marines' ships and provide orbital bombardment, every Sister capable of using special weapons equipped with a Meltagun. Once the marines are without fleet support or aircraft the SoB are just as mobile as them with Rhinos and Immolators. Then it's just numbers - one Sister isn't quite equal to a Marine but two squads can outshoot one, same as two tanks can outshoot one roughly equal.

I have no idea what the SoB consider acceptable losses for taking out a renegade Chapter, but if they're "commonly" used for it they must have a working method and a good idea of the cost.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, rather let your Minor Order be commanded by a Sister Superior (or at least, a Sister Superior count-as).

That wouldn't really work in-game, though. Somebody needs to be the HQ.

Anyway, I like Canonesses. Can't help it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”.

Sure, but as Miko mentioned, the SoB recruitment rate is somewhat slow. If they were losing massive amounts of Sisters each time, they'd suffer greatly for it, since they've also got their regular battles to fight as well. But they've been able to purge multiple Marine Chapters throughout their existence, and are viewed as one of the few forces that is capable of doing it. So I doubt that a few thousand of Sisters are slaughtered every time they need to cull a Chapter. I mean, the IG could just be sent to do it if drowning the Marines in bodies was considered the only way, but we can see that the Sisters are described as a preffered answer to a rogue Chapter, and Sisters are a much more precious and finite resource.

And, really, I think it's underestimating the SoB just a bit to think that they'd require numerical superiority to a comical degree to succeed at this. I could accept it being over somewhere over 1000 Sisters, sure, but I think it starts to get a bit silly somewhere around 3000. Also, again, that Citadel Journal source seemed to imply that their method for fighting Marine Chapters was to try to use surgical strikes first, so it wouldn't necessarily just be a standard war of attrition anyway.

Three to one is the traditionally desirable numerical odds for any attack is what I think Oxy meant.

I doubt that under 3000 would suffice.

The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?), have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?), SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers and light infantry, the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed, same as repentia and arco-flagellants), Exorcists are strong but have limited utility, and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed. Marines also have drop pods, hell, they even have Centurions.

Even if we are to put a SoB with a meltagun VS a Marine with a meltagun, the Marine is at a distinct advantage since he is faster (Making it easier to 'dodge' the beam), is tougher (greater chance of surviving a longer range shot), has autosenses linked to his weapon (Better knowledge of when exactly lethal range is reached), and so on and so forth.

The fight is not that fair at all. Deus Ex Actsoffaith is good but can't make up for these disadvantages.

Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I doubt that under 3000 would suffice.

The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?), have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?), SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers and light infantry, the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed, same as repentia and arco-flagellants), Exorcists are strong but have limited utility, and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed. Marines also have drop pods, hell, they even have Centurions.

Even if we are to put a SoB with a meltagun VS a Marine with a meltagun, the Marine is at a distinct advantage since he is faster (Making it easier to 'dodge' the beam), is tougher (greater chance of surviving a longer range shot), has autosenses linked to his weapon (Better knowledge of when exactly lethal range is reached), and so on and so forth.

The fight is not that fair at all. Deus Ex Actsoffaith is good but can't make up for these disadvantages.

Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

Are you comparing things on the tabletop to fluff? That's a bad idea in general because it ignores alot of things when it comes down to it.

Nope, I am not using gameplay stats, etc.

The closest is perhaps the SoB lack of Art Armour, but do they have that in lore?

Anyone that is not Celestine that is.

Actually, on the tabletop, it's a lot closer than Hari suggests based on the fluff (A meltagun has less chance of killing a Sororitas than it does a Marine, since both are BS4, wounded on 2+, ignoring armour... but the Sororitas has a 6++).

In lore the Sororitas equivalent to Artificer Armour is something called an 'Aspiriate Cloak' - presumably a knock-off of the Cloak of St. Aspira relic, which used to improve the armour save by 1 (it does something completely different in the new book).

Sororitas gear is of the same quality as Marine gear, but they do lack several options - Missile Launchers, for example, are excellent anti-MEq weapons that the Astartes can bring to bear against the Sisters. This, in part, is why Sororitas reserve their Dominica-pattern Drop Pods for use against renegade Astartes chapters - they don't have an infinite supply of them to spam against every enemy of the Imperium, but against Marines they let them get into melta and flamer range, negating the Marines' advantage in long-range firepower.

Personally, I think it's closer to two Sisters needed per Astartes, but I'm just as biased as Hari (albeit in the other direction).

Not to mention Plasma Cannons and Plasma Guns, Miko.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, if we went with my headcanon rather than some mere healthy bias, it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

<WARNING - HEADCANON HERESY INCOMING>



Sorry. Yes, they are 9' in my headcanon.

Ooh, now the gauntlet has been thrown down!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?),

I feel I should highlight that there's fluff stating that Sisters are "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter". Also, the AS codex notes that they recieve the best equipment the Imperium can offer. So the fluff doesn't seem to agree that the equipment of Marines is "much" better. Anyway, moving on to your specific points, the Sororitas bolter doesn't seem to be significantly less effective than the Marine bolter, being reffered to as one of the best patterns of bolters and dealing the same damage on the TT (I know the tabletop can be a bit iffy, but here I'm using it in combination with the fluff). Artifacer armour? The Ecclesiarchy is extremely rich, and could quite concievably have some artifacer armour for the Sisters. But, regardless, given its rarity I doubt it would do much tide-turning anyway.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?)

Not currently. FW has them requesting the Avenger Strike Fighter. Regardless, nothing stopping the SoB from having quad guns to deal with aircraft.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers

At the moment, yes. But those things won't necessarily win a war by themselves.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
and light infantry

I don't see the disadvantage in all of them having power armour. And if it's scouting-type stuff you're referring to, then Dominions have that covered.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed,same as repentia and arco-flagellants)

All of those are noted as being resistant to pain, due to their respective fanaticism. The Penitent Engine has a rule called "unstoppable" to represent this.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Exorcists are strong but have limited utility,

Scores of missiles raining down from the sky will ruin anything's day. They just need to be in range.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed.

But getting closer to the Sisters means getting closer to their guns, and Sisters excel at short-range firefights. Suffice to say, it won't be an easy approach. Even then, they aren't as helpless as you make out. The Sisters have their aforementioned melee units, and unlike on the tabletop, will still be able to shoot their guns whilst the Marines are up close.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
hell, they even have Centurions.

Not seeing your point. Those'll go down to a melta blast or two. Don't see what notable tactical advantage they confer.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Even if we are to put a SoB with a meltagun VS a Marine with a meltagun, the Marine is at a distinct advantage since he is faster (Making it easier to 'dodge' the beam), is tougher (greater chance of surviving a longer range shot), has autosenses linked to his weapon (Better knowledge of when exactly lethal range is reached), and so on and so forth.

Ah, but does he have... the Shield of Faith? That's one advantage that the Sisters have over the Marines, it appears. And on that note, Soroitas armour is indeed as protective as Marine armour, so they can take a similar amount of punishment. Also, Sisters can potentially use their AoFs to become better at shooting, so they can close the gap with the Marines somewhat.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Deus Ex Actsoffaith is good but can't make up for these disadvantages.

Of course they can. GW themselves once implied as much. And while I know that you view AoFs as unrealistic/silly, they're still a thing. Every SoB squad is going to be using them to be better at their given combat role. What they do is elevate the SoB above what is normally possible for them, so of course they're going to offset the advantage of the Marine enchancements.

Also, I notice that you're again assuming that the SoB are going about this in a standard fashion, fighting the Marines normally. To gain an edge over the Marines, they may opt for surgical strikes initially (and we have an example of this in the fluff) in order to weaken the Chapter. This would make the subsequent attack upon the Chapter as a whole easier.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

Or, if a battle becomes desperate for the SoB, Celetine could show up and slaughter several Marines!

I think it'd be easier if we kept the deus-ex machina heroes of our respective armies out of it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
but I'm just as biased as Hari (albeit in the other direction).

Heh, yep. Me too.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

So many game mechanics!

Come at me, Troike. That last face made me lol.

I would challenge you to a match to settle this (And Miko too) but Britain is distant and I am too busy to travel! Imperial citizens must be sacrificed, skulls must be taken and all that.

Also, mind you, Astartes are just as likely to make surgical strikes against the SoB. In fact, that and boarding actions are one of their specialities, which is not happy news for the incoming SoB fleet (Sure, meltas and flamers are good on ships, but Marines are kings in space)

 Troike wrote:

Spoiler:

It's more like this:

A broken image link?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A broken image link?

Seems fine on my end... has the inquisition interfered with my plan for heresy?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
So many game mechanics!

I know, I know. But I only referenced them to back up the fluff.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I would challenge you to a match to settle this (And Miko too) but Britain is distant and I am too busy to travel!

Ha, likewise. That'd be fun. We could maybe even do one houseruled game where our respective armies are as powerful as we like to think they are.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Also, mind you, Astartes are just as likely to make surgical strikes against the SoB. In fact, that and boarding actions are one of their specialities, which is not happy news for the incoming SoB fleet (Sure, meltas and flamers are good on ships, but Marines are kings in space)

Possibly. Again, not saying that the Marines won't put up a fight or have their own edges. All depends on how it kicks off, I guess.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A broken image link?

He was trying to link to this:

Protip: 1d4chan doesn't seem to allow linking images directly.

EDIT: oh, I can see it now. Weird,

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

(Frowning intensifies)

 Bobthehero wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

(Frowning intensifies)

*frowning is now full inverted v*

My dislike of the Space Wolves comes from the way long ago it seemed they were written like some fanboy Mary Sue, like some of the bad lists/ideas you see online where someone invents an army that's just super at everything. I don't mind the models, even the silly stuff like the wolf riders. But even 20 years ago their first proper codex in 2nd edition was full of 'Hurr, they don't follow any codex rules and do their own thing, hurr, they don't get on with anyone, hurr, they refuse to break up their chapter properly after the Heresy or follow orders' and then to cap it off they were given an over powered list in which they just had improved stat lines and abilities for marginal cost increases over marines.

Things that annoy about the Space Wolves, and that we're even having this discussion, result from the way they were written in their early days. There's not following codex rules, and then there's just being douchbags doing anything you like without repercussion. I'm sure other chapters in the fluff have deviated less than Space Wolves and been penalised, so the way Space Wolves don't give a damn about anything and are untouchable for it just makes the whole 'we're so special' shtick even more obvious.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

(Frowning intensifies)

Lel you mad bro

Oh, and if we take Guardsmen instead, it'd be like a hundred guys per marine. CCCCCCCCCCC:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and now I imagine a 1v4 game of 4000 points VS 4x1000 points- me VS Miko, Troike, Sydney and Melissia. I'd get crushed, sure, my army is horribly uncompetitive and Dominioncheese worries me, but it's a cool thought.

Hehe, oh, that would be glorious.

That said, it's often the 'uncompetitive' options that give Sisters armies trouble! (20-strong CSM squads, for example).

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

(Frowning intensifies)

Lel you mad bro

Oh, and if we take Guardsmen instead, it'd be like a hundred guys per marine.

Takes only one with a plasma gun, ah!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years.

Bucharis forces were not IG. They were thugs enlisted by the cardinal.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

If those are one-hundred-strong ordo minoris, then they are pretty efficient, considering how they do not have any implant and are still able to kill almost twice their number in marines.

Sisters of Battle 2nd ed wrote:With almost every system consolidated under his rule over a vast track of space, he moved on. Three more Imperial Guard regiments had joined Gasto's mercenaries.

Not quite "Just Thugs".

 Troike wrote:
That wouldn't really work in-game, though. Somebody needs to be the HQ.

Uh ? In game, it would just be about one squad who is painted differently from the others. No need for anything else. You do not even have the right to ally with your own codex anyway !

 Troike wrote:
Sure, but as Miko mentioned, the SoB recruitment rate is somewhat slow.

I do not think it is slower than the marine recruitment rate.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?), have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?), SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers and light infantry, the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed, same as repentia and arco-flagellants), Exorcists are strong but have limited utility, and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed. Marines also have drop pods, hell, they even have Centurions.

Ok, now you are comparing apples and oranges. The AS range is desperately sparse because GW never cared to add anything to it. That does not mean that the Sisters do not have more thing at their disposal than what is currently mentioned. Everything else while just be retroactively added, just like Centurions and Stormwhatever and all that were.
Beside, the Ecclesiarchy is extremely rich. You can be pretty sure they have money to buy much better equipment than even Astartes have if they want to. GW never cared to represent that aspect of the fluff in the actual army list, but that does not invalidate it. The Ecclesiarchy is sitting on a pile on money. They can get everything money can buy.

(And a DCA conclave with priest charging any non-terminator armor marine unit will mince it into small ribbons of bloody flesh )

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

And ? If the Sisters manage to control themselves enough not to shoot those ghost allies out of reality, it might actually help them.

 Stonerhino wrote:
Not quite "Just Thugs".

Ok, thugs and dirty deserters !

Sororitas recruit maybe a hundred Sisters a year.

Those are then distributed between the Orders Sabine, Dialogous, Hospitaller, Pronatus and Militant.

Those are then further divided amongst the Major and Minor Orders within each subdivision.

This leads to each Major Order of the Adepta Soroitas maybe getting three recruits a year.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sororitas recruit maybe a hundred Sisters a year.

Where does that comes from ?
I have always pictured the Adepta Sororitas as very decentralized. I know it is one of the most centralized organization in 40k, but given the setting (the difficulty and unreliability of communication and transport, the huge scale of the Imperium, along the archaic bureaucracy, etc), I still think it means something very decentralized by our standards. So, I would have expected many Scola Progenia in many worlds recruiting Sisters all over the galaxy. Hence more than a hundred a year.

Ok, now you are comparing apples and oranges. The AS range is desperately sparse because GW never cared to add anything to it. That does not mean that the Sisters do not have more thing at their disposal than what is currently mentioned. Everything else while just be retroactively added, just like Centurions and Stormwhatever and all that were.
Beside, the Ecclesiarchy is extremely rich. You can be pretty sure they have money to buy much better equipment than even Astartes have if they want to. GW never cared to represent that aspect of the fluff in the actual army list, but that does not invalidate it. The Ecclesiarchy is sitting on a pile on money. They can get everything money can buy.

Dark Heresy had an extensive list of Relics for the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy, it was one of my favorite books because of how much faith could matter in making a simple tool powerful for the faithful, and I wish we had an extensive range like that. Even the bones of a saint, or Martyr could protect you as effectively as if you had a shield before you.

A hundred recruits a year is just impossible, they would have died out ages ago.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
A hundred recruits a year is just impossible, they would have died out ages ago.

IIRC the hundred is about how many get to swear the oath on Terra at a time. Still, they do have high recruitment standards - a Sister who takes up the bolter would meet the physical requirements for joining the Stormtrooper regiment.

Five hundred, sorry, not one hundred.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071218114030/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/repentia.html

Sadly the most detailed information about Sisters recruitment we have.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Oh, and now I imagine a 1v4 game of 4000 points VS 4x1000 points- me VS Miko, Troike, Sydney and Melissia. I'd get crushed, sure, my army is horribly uncompetitive and Dominioncheese worries me, but it's a cool thought.

Ha. Well, I don't yet have 1000 points of Sisters, so you might be at an advantage.
Also I am amused by the idea of a Dominion rush that huge.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I do not think it is slower than the marine recruitment rate.

It does take longer to produce a Battle Sister than a Space Marine, though.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok, now you are comparing apples and oranges. The AS range is desperately sparse because GW never cared to add anything to it. That does not mean that the Sisters do not have more thing at their disposal than what is currently mentioned. Everything else while just be retroactively added, just like Centurions and Stormwhatever and all that were.
Beside, the Ecclesiarchy is extremely rich. You can be pretty sure they have money to buy much better equipment than even Astartes have if they want to. GW never cared to represent that aspect of the fluff in the actual army list, but that does not invalidate it. The Ecclesiarchy is sitting on a pile on money. They can get everything money can buy.

I can agree with this. We probably only look under-equipped because or model range has gone un-updated for quite some time. If we're to go purely by fluff, then the Sisters can acquire pretty much any equipment they'd need.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

I'm not sure if it's a retcon, new fluff, or if it's always been the case (though I do think it's the latter. Pretty sure the LoTD has always been stated in the fluff to help "Imperial Forces", not just "marines"), but at least with the new LoTD codex, it's now likely "canon" that the LoTD helps all Imperial Armies, not just marines. So it's possible the LoTD would be on the sister's side, depending on how things go. At the very least, the LoTD can't be used as a factor in the Marine's advantage when the LoTD could help any Imperial faction, including sisters, not just Marines.

 Troike wrote:

It does take longer to produce a Battle Sister than a Space Marine, though.

It depends.

Marines are just recruited at an older age.

They also consume more resources (Longer lives, bigger means bigger wargear, rare tech required to make and maintain marine, etc.)

Training a Sister from entry into the Schola to deployment on the battlefield takes twelve to seventeen years. Training a Marine from recruitment to graduating from the Scout Company takes six to eight years.

While Space Marines are more-expensive to train than Sisters...

... there are more Space Marines in the galaxy than there are Sisters of Battle.

 Psienesis wrote:
While Space Marines are more-expensive to train than Sisters...

... there are more Space Marines in the galaxy than there are Sisters of Battle.

That's because the only - real - requirement to become a Marine is compatibility with the geneseed. Any selection rituals and tests a Chapter uses are in the end needless. The implants and hypnotherapy will lift them so far above what they were that it really makes no difference if one was a strong hunter or an anemic scavenger.

While that's true, it's all the additional requirements that (in part) limit who can be a Space Marine. After all, you gotta pass the basic training before you start getting the implants.

 Psienesis wrote:
... there are more Space Marines in the galaxy than there are Sisters of Battle.

… maybe. We do not have any precise figures on the total number of Sisters.

We have a pretty good picture of there being no more than 200K (at the outest of outsides) Battle Sisters in the galaxy. That's six Major Orders with many, many thousands and then a whole lotta Minor Orders capping out at a max of 1000 Sisters.

 Troike wrote:

Ha. Well, I don't yet have 1000 points of Sisters, so you might be at an advantage.

Vassal.

Vassal could be done. Vassal is not region specific.

Vassal seems rather clunky to me, and I've never really gotten into it. That said, it remains very viable. But let's take that to PM and let the thread go back to its topic, aye?

No, because I want in on this deal >:c

Them Sisters need proper artillery support

Agghhhhh an IG player, KILL IT WITH FIRE

Stop it

You're ruining my immersion

My pooor poooooor headcanon

gtfo with your WS4

No no not W3 company commandersssaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No okay, that was cruel. We can fix this and still keep the immersion. All you need to do is to let me use my fluffy army list and everything will be fine. (Mind you, the link is an incomplete screen-grab. The army list is much larger and all the wargear and special rules have been adjusted appropriately, in a similar manner to the statline. Points costs are also incomplete.)

(frowning re-intensifies)

Can I put my artillery a few kilometers away?

If I get my Dreadclaws...

Works, the Sisters will deal with your CSM and then I'll bombard everyone.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee

*cough* We might be off topic, but I am sure

Ig makes me :(

the faction should be removed tbh

its unfluffy

tbh we should use my fluff statline and give stormtroopers gretchin stats

basilisks should be s4 ap4 at best

yes that would be good

(Mandatory passive-aggressive smiley: )

It should be noted that the above is not 100% serious, in case angry mods find this on a monday morning.

Hari, I think you forgot to reload your headcanon again...

Pf, it never runs short of ammunition!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
All you need to do is to let me use my fluffy army list and everything will be fine.

But... but.... but that is not fluffy, that is overpowered. I mean, look at that cultist profile ! No way in hell they could have BS3 or Ld7 !

(Well, to make sure we respect fluff, the range of the basilisk will be increased to 1km, and we will play on a 1km+48'' table. Oh, and the hydra can shoot two/three times at your pod, and if they destroy it, then your marines becomes crater on the ground. Deal ?)