Impressively, Dakka seems to be heavily devoid of racism, be it overt or more insidious. I don't if I should praise the mods or if the community is simply more "enlightened" and less hateful than many other forums. Nearly anywhere else racism is rampant. In most cases it is subtle, but still there. I don't know if technology has allowed racist ideology to simply be transmitted faster or if racism is simply on the upswing in America. It seems as if you can find cases of every ethnicity/racial group being racist against every other one, but the most disturbing groups that I have noticed are white power fanatics and their direct opposition, the black power movement.
I'm sure everyone is familiar with white power groups, such as the KKK and Aryan Brotherhood. You might also be familiar with the infamous Stormfront. White racism against everyone is well documented and is extremely evident in the culture up until recent years. I believe we are now in the midst of the first generation that has grown up with internet access and a childhood of gaming. This particular group is extremely fond of making racist, misogynistic, and homophobic insults. I am not sure if these comments reflect the individuals actual beliefs or if they are simply a result of internet anonymity. What I am sure of is that there a great deal of angry, antisocial young white males with misplaced hatred toward African-American males for being perceived superior athletes and having superior genetics (go read the misc section of bodybuilding.com or /fit for a week and you will see what I mean) and women for either not being slutty enough or for being too slutty. The Madonna-Whore complex is alive and well. There is also of course generalized racism against anyone that is non-white. Surprisingly certain forums are becoming much more tolerant of homosexuality in general while remaining fairly racist and misogynistic.
I doubt most people are very familiar with black racism against whites and Jews. The Nation of Islam promoted racist ideology in the form of African superiority at the expense of everyone else, specifically whites. The Nation of Gods and Earths (possibly better known as Five Percenters) followed in their footsteps and promotes a similar ideology. A very high number of rappers and other individuals involved in the hip-hop community, specifically the Golden Age, are self proclaimed Five Percenters. These two groups have spread their teachings throughout the African-American community outside the scope of the mainstream media in the years following the Civil Rights Movement. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the claims that Jesus was a black man and that the ancient Egyptians were also black. You probably dismissed these as simply being an attempt at racial empowerment. Perhaps, in some cases it is that and nothing more. Far too often it is not. There are are truly those within the African-American community that believe Africans are inherently superior to all other racial groups and that the white man is the devil.
I can't say if reverse racism actually exists at an institutionalized level. It certainly exists at a micro level.
Nor can it even be accounted for by mere power since, like their cousins the Nazis, they exercise that power in sick and twisted ways not commonly seen in others.
There is something else at work. My best guess is that it is a psychological disorder caused by the way they bring up their children. What White Americans would quickly call a pathology if it were found in black people. Whatever it is, it makes them unaccepting of people who are different and gives them a need to look down on and dehumanize others in order to feel good about themselves.
There are naturally black power websites akin to Stormfront. See http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/forum.php I've frequently seen people decry or downplay the existence of racism against whites. It is there. The numbers may be small, but the intense hatred is undoubtedly out there.
How can a nation hope to heal at this point? Is racism actually a significant issue in America or these merely fringe extremists?
I don't think their getting any worse. Granted, I've lived my entire life in a color neutral world (the military), so I can't really say with any authority. I've seen racism for sure. Cross burning's in my neighbors yard when I lived in Louisiana, to lets kick the gak out of whitey in inner city areas. But it's still incredibly rare when I see overt racism, enough so that I find it simply shocking.
That's in real life at least. I see it all the time on the internet.
As we've seen with the Martin and Dunn cases, a large portion of black America is intent on emphatically stating that those two judgements have declared "open season" on black youth.
Coupled with the fact that any black American who's views align more with a conservative viewpoint is labeled an Uncle Tom And the fact that most whites are terrified to talk about race for fear of being blacklisted as a racist, and you've got an equation that hardly screams "better race relations."
Is it as out in the open anymore? Not hardly.
Are we even close to people being comfortable with it. No way.
We actually police ourselves up though DJ before the Mods start swinging the bat. Why start this thread being we have one going on with Trex and DJ (Hand pointing at both of you) in another thread
Jihadin wrote: We actually police ourselves up though DJ before the Mods start swinging the bat. Why start this thread being we have one going on with Trex and DJ (Hand pointing at both of you) in another thread
whembly wrote: Relations are "better" than probably ever...
I think it really started in my generation (the 80's/early 90's) as we weren't alive during the Civil Rights years.
I don't think there's anything people or society do to make it better. I think that the people who are more xenophobic simply get old and die, and younger people are less xenophobic, repeat.
whembly wrote: Relations are "better" than probably ever...
I think it really started in my generation (the 80's/early 90's) as we weren't alive during the Civil Rights years.
I don't think there's anything people or society do to make it better. I think that the people who are more xenophobic simply get old and die, and younger people are less xenophobic, repeat.
Jihadin wrote: We catch ourselves from getting out of hand DJ
I could be mistaken but I don't believe I have ever seen anything on this forum that was legitimately racist to the point it needed to be moderated. I am sure some mod is reading this and snickering but that was my anecdotal experience.
I think we need to distinguish between actual, honest to God racism, and loudmouthed teenagers. Kids calling people November* in a forum isn't a problem in the way that Stormfront or the Nation of Islam are problems. It isn't good that kids do it, but it just isn't on the same scale.
And once we seperate that out, well looking at the various hate groups out there, I think just about everyone is on the decline, and not one has the numbers to impact politics at even a local level. That doesn't mean everything is okay, individuals will still suffer as a result of these idiots, but history seems to be heading in the right direction.
Really, I think the bigger issue of race at this point is passive, not overtly racist claims made by people who identify as racial seperatists or supremacists, but everyday people who still have unchallenged racist assumptions. cincydooley raises a good example - the portion of the black community who immediately identified with Martin because of his race, and assumed the result of the trial was due to race - a lot of underlying racial ideas there that needed examination. Another example would be the tendency of many people to associate welfare with black people. Those issues are serious and need to be slowly dismantled over time, but they're nothing like the scale of race problems of the past.
I think they're getting better. Incidents like the Treyvon Martin shooting open the scab, but for the most part I think the US is slowly getting past race as an issue.
cincydooley wrote: I mean, give me any black public figure that doesn't identify as a typical liberal.
You're asking me to prove your ridiculous premise that " any black American who's views align more with a conservative viewpoint is labeled an Uncle Tom" ? No, I will not do research to prove your ridiculous idea is not true.
If by "research" you mean "5 second google search" then I'm sure you can't be bothered.
I could be mistaken but I don't believe I have ever seen anything on this forum that was legitimately racist to the point it needed to be moderated. I am sure some mod is reading this and snickering but that was my anecdotal experience.
Oh man, I forgot about that guy. Good call. I still see him show up now and then, too. Sometimes he tries to, you know, be subtle, with a normal-ish first post and then BOOM RAMPS IT UP BY POST 2, and then the lock.
He's the guy who shows up with those weird western/anime threads now and then, right?
Ouze wrote: Oh man, I forgot about that guy. Good call. I still see him show up now and then, too. Sometimes he tries to, you know, be subtle, with a normal-ish first post and then BOOM RAMPS IT UP BY POST 2, and then the lock.
He's the guy who shows up with those weird western/anime threads now and then, right?
Jihadin wrote: Everyone is racist to a degree even if they do not know it. What might be "norms" in your perception is not "norm" to others.
quoted for truth. If you judge people based on clothing /grooming you sure as hell are judging them unconsciously based on their nationality /skin colour. Uncomfortable but true.
whembly wrote: I think it's sensationalized in the media... as evidenced by the recent Zimmerman / Dunn trials.
If anything I see more "tribal" discrimination than "racial" discrimination these days...
It's certainly sensationalised in the media, who give lots of screen time to the people who's job it is to make outrageous comments about race, whilefor the most part people just keep on going about their lives. The days of lynchings after a black guy wins the heavyweight title are long behind us.
I mean, I can keep going. I realize you really want to hang on the "any" generalization and that's fine. But please, don't pretend it's a not a huge, very real issue.
Explicit Racism is very much on the decline, but instituitional racism isnt. Now, IR is not in itself caused by any group of people today. But it once was. Like the Redlining(The practice of preventing anyone from buying in an african neighborhood, leaving the affluent out) of African Neighborhoods after WW2. That practice is no longer there, but it affects are still being felt because things are slow to change. But like i said, today it is not caused by anyone but a ripple effect. But many people like to think it still does. Lets put it another way. Bad schools in African Neighborhoods lead to no acceptence in college, leading into poverty where they cannot escape starting to process with their children. But people still think that their is some grand master pulling strings or out to get you.
Ouze wrote: Oh man, I forgot about that guy. Good call. I still see him show up now and then, too. Sometimes he tries to, you know, be subtle, with a normal-ish first post and then BOOM RAMPS IT UP BY POST 2, and then the lock.
He's the guy who shows up with those weird western/anime threads now and then, right?
he still posts? Why have I not heard about this...I swear Dakka needs some kind of instant alert system when your "favourite poster" posts. I want to troll him hard and relentlessly. I had a great time in his 2 or 3 threads and was dissapointed they got shut down so early , I really wanted to witness a bigot head explosion.
cincydooley wrote:I mean, I can keep going. I realize you really want to hang on the "any" generalization and that's fine. But please, don't pretend it's a not a huge, very real issue.
I never said anything to indicate it wasn't a huge, real issue. I will only concede that as argumentative hooks go, "any" was not my best work.
Bullockist wrote:he still posts? Why have I not heard about this...I swear Dakka needs some kind of instant alert system when your "favourite poster" posts. I want to troll him hard and relentlessly. I had a great time in his 2 or 3 threads and was dissapointed they got shut down so early , I really wanted to witness a bigot head explosion.
He just shows up as a sockpuppet now and then, and usually gets shut down pretty fast.
whembly wrote: I think it's sensationalized in the media... as evidenced by the recent Zimmerman / Dunn trials.
If anything I see more "tribal" discrimination than "racial" discrimination these days...
It's certainly sensationalised in the media, who give lots of screen time to the people who's job it is to make outrageous comments about race, whilefor the most part people just keep on going about their lives. The days of lynchings after a black guy wins the heavyweight title are long behind us.
trexmeyer wrote: I'm sure most of you are familiar with the claims that Jesus was a black man and that the ancient Egyptians were also black. You probably dismissed these as simply being an attempt at racial empowerment.
No, I imagine most people dismissed them because they don't matter to most people.
Also, I've not heard anyone claim that ancient Egyptians were black. Please provide an example.
There are are truly those within the African-American community that believe Africans are inherently superior to all other racial groups and that the white man is the devil.
The words "black" and "African" are not synonymous. You seem to know this as you leveraged the word "black" when referencing Jesus and the Egyptians, and objected to the notion that Egyptians be considered black.
Careful, citing Wikipedia is frowned upon in this academic bastion.
Wikipedia isn't a bad source, per se; though it is difficult to defend.
I was teasing a little bit. We all know Wikipedia isn't appropriate for official documents or academic journals. There are some folks here that seem to think dakka is one or the other.
It's exhausting sometimes just finding "less-partisan" websites to use for links in general.
I mean, I can keep going. I realize you really want to hang on the "any" generalization and that's fine. But please, don't pretend it's a not a huge, very real issue.
Nope, it doesn't exist at all. Also note that the blogs I referenced would refer to such individuals as "brainwashed pawns of the white devil."
dogma wrote:
trexmeyer wrote: I'm sure most of you are familiar with the claims that Jesus was a black man and that the ancient Egyptians were also black. You probably dismissed these as simply being an attempt at racial empowerment.
No, I imagine most people dismissed them because they don't matter to most people.
Also, I've not heard anyone claim that ancient Egyptians were black. Please provide an example.
There are are truly those within the African-American community that believe Africans are inherently superior to all other racial groups and that the white man is the devil.
The words "black" and "African" are not synonymous. You seem to know this as you leveraged the word "black" when referencing Jesus and the Egyptians, and objected to the notion that Egyptians be considered black.
You're correct. I should have specified they believe black Africans are superior. Slight brain fart forgetting about the Caucasians and Arabs that are native to Africa. My apologies.
Anonymity allows people to say things they normally wouldn't. This is further encouraged by a lack of moderation, or moderation that simply doesn't care. We can be rash and spontaneous because we're not accountable for our actions.
Everyone has harbored a racist feeling or stereotype of some sort at one time or another, even if it's just a fleeting moment. We don't usually say or act on these in public because we're not stupid, and we realize we just let our temper get the best of us. We pause, calm down, and get over it. On the internet that barrier isn't there. I could call you all sorts of horrible things right now, but what do I care? I'm potentially thousands of miles away, sitting behind a laptop with not a care in the world, able to say things that in real life would cause me to get a severe beating. Worst I get is a ban from Dakkadakka that I can circumvent in like 15 minutes by changing my IP or something.
For a good example of this in action, look at 4chan. The anonymous nature of the posting there, combined with minimal mod interference leads to massive amounts of racist material. Depending on the board, this could be just a few dedicated trolls, or a significant portion of the userbase. Nobody gives a gak, because, well, it's 4chan.
To be perfectly honest, race relations if anything have gotten better. The key thing to remember is that the internet has just allowed people to express themselves in ways that they would never do in person. This goes for everything from pornography, to racism, to idiotic opinions, to spouting random BS and rumors, and countless other ways. People act this way because they're (usually) not going to be held accountable for it. They don't need to calm down and think about what they're saying. They don't need to be right, or have a rational reason for what they're saying. They can "fire and forget" and there will be almost no consequence unless they did something really stupid like threaten to kill the president. People will always be tempted to do bad things when they feel they can get away with it. The convenient nature of the internet makes this desire almost irresistible.
Of course, there will always be legitimate racists out there, the KKK alone is proof enough of this. Best we can do is try and diminish their influence as much as possible and keep an eye on them so they don't do something crazy.
The term "reverse racism" came into use as the struggle for African-American rights divided the white community. In 1966, Hosea Williams of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), publicly accused members of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) of reverse racism in their efforts to exclude or expel whites from local government in Alabama to make room for blacks. Williams argued that SNCC's (unsuccessful) "all-black" campaign in Alabama would drive white moderates out of the civil rights movement.[3] "Black racism" was a more common term in this era, used to describe SNCC and groups like the Black Panthers.[4]
The Supreme Court has held that racial preferences in university admissions for minority students do not violate Equal Protection in cases such as Grutter v. Bollinger.
The term gained widespread use in debates and legal actions concerning affirmative action, albeit sometimes in the context of "the myth of reverse racism".[5] It appeared resurgent on the political scene with the successful candidacy of Barack Obama in 2008.[6]
A recent study conducted at Tufts and Harvard sought to quantify perceptions of reverse racism by surveying Americans who identified as White or Black. The study's title, "White People See Racism as a Zero-Sum Game That They Are Now Losing", indicates its findings: that Whites feel as though they now suffer disproportionately from racism. (Blacks felt that anti-Black racism had decreased over time, but did not perceive increases in anti-White bias.) These results were constant for people of different ages and levels of education.[2][7]
Studies show that great percentages of both whites and blacks feel as though anti-black racism has decreased significantly. However, studies also show that great percentages of whites feel as though they've replaced blacks as the racial group most discriminated against. Many believe that the phenomenon of "white guilt", while by no means a recent idea, has come to the forefront of race relations.
My waitress in a restaurant in Hackensack, NJ spent the entire evening ignoring me, and spent the whole time flirting with two guys at another table. Took her 15 minutes to come take my order AFTER someone told her to, she asked me once how everything was, never refilled my water, and didn't even wish me a good night after she brought the check. Just dropped it and left to go flirt with the other guys. And take care of her one other table. Kicker was, I'm white, everyone else was either black or Asian. I've got friends of just about every ethnicity, think racism is disgusting, and I was pretty upset at the treatment I got that I'm reasonably sure was due to the color of my skin and what town I was in.
spent the entire evening ignoring me, and spent the whole time flirting with two guys at another table.
She either knows them or wants to know one of them. My advice. Go impeccably groomed GQ style. Happens to me at times but always remember. There's more then one waitress or waiter. I just hold up my near empty glass when I make eye contact with one.
Since recently it has been found that most 'white' people are genetically up to 4% Neanderthal, I'm surprised we don't hear more about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomically_modern_humans <--- A proud and pasty knuckledragger
So, if people are getting racist, they should at least have science to back it up
But, if gamers are generally thought to be a-social, but socialise to get a game in once in a while, it helps to ignore who (or what) you hang around with.
Nerd-kind comes in all shapes and sizes.
spent the entire evening ignoring me, and spent the whole time flirting with two guys at another table.
She either knows them or wants to know one of them. My advice. Go impeccably groomed GQ style. Happens to me at times but always remember. There's more then one waitress or waiter. I just hold up my near empty glass when I make eye contact with one.
None of which warrants making me wait 15 minutes to come over to introduce herself/take my order (i did both at thw same time since i waited so long) or toss the check on the table without wishing me a good night. I'm not a needy customer by any means. I've also worked in restaurants most of my adult life so far. Nobody in the restaurants I worked in would dream of being this inattentive or rude to their customers.
timetowaste85 wrote: My waitress in a restaurant in Hackensack, NJ spent the entire evening ignoring me, and spent the whole time flirting with two guys at another table. Took her 15 minutes to come take my order AFTER someone told her to, she asked me once how everything was, never refilled my water, and didn't even wish me a good night after she brought the check. Just dropped it and left to go flirt with the other guys. And take care of her one other table. Kicker was, I'm white, everyone else was either black or Asian. I've got friends of just about every ethnicity, think racism is disgusting, and I was pretty upset at the treatment I got that I'm reasonably sure was due to the color of my skin and what town I was in.
On the face of it, that's racism.
The thing is that as a white man in western Europe or the USA you don't often get into situations in which it is obvious you are being discriminated against due to race, because you are part of the majority group. It's a shock when it happens.
timetowaste85 wrote: My waitress in a restaurant in Hackensack, NJ spent the entire evening ignoring me, and spent the whole time flirting with two guys at another table. Took her 15 minutes to come take my order AFTER someone told her to, she asked me once how everything was, never refilled my water, and didn't even wish me a good night after she brought the check. Just dropped it and left to go flirt with the other guys. And take care of her one other table. Kicker was, I'm white, everyone else was either black or Asian. I've got friends of just about every ethnicity, think racism is disgusting, and I was pretty upset at the treatment I got that I'm reasonably sure was due to the color of my skin and what town I was in.
On the face of it, that's racism.
The thing is that as a white man in western Europe or the USA you don't often get into situations in which it is obvious you are being discriminated against due to race, because you are part of the majority group. It's a shock when it happens.
I hope you left a "Tip for Jesus".
I left about half of what I should have. And still feel I left too much. Oh well, to quote 'Waiting' she needed it more than me.
US is facing a long decline, primacy has moved from Washington to Beijing and that will have long term economic consequences.
While the US will be mighty for the rest of the century it will have to satisfied with less as resource distribution shifts east and the American way of life starts to get harder to maintain.
This has nothing to do with racism except that when people have less they tend to complain and look for people to blame, with ethnic divisions being fairly ingrained, and the Hispanic minority being more organised and wanting more than they were usually allotted, I can see a steady worsening of race relations. It will be nobodies fault, just human nature.
The only bit of good news is that the US has a strong cohesive identity, people are expected to be Americans first and their ethnic identity afterwards, the flag is raised etc. In Europe under multiculturalism this isn't a priority, however multiculturalism doesn't work as homo sapiens is a tribal animal and it is our nature to be factional.
So you have it half right, much of Europe however is fethed.
spent the entire evening ignoring me, and spent the whole time flirting with two guys at another table.
She either knows them or wants to know one of them. My advice. Go impeccably groomed GQ style. Happens to me at times but always remember. There's more then one waitress or waiter. I just hold up my near empty glass when I make eye contact with one.
None of which warrants making me wait 15 minutes to come over to introduce herself/take my order (i did both at thw same time since i waited so long) or toss the check on the table without wishing me a good night. I'm not a needy customer by any means. I've also worked in restaurants most of my adult life so far. Nobody in the restaurants I worked in would dream of being this inattentive or rude to their customers.
here's something I did once that works. Just get up and sit at another table, or better yet get up and walk the hell out and tell them why. This will teach you to be in New Jersey.
Manchu wrote:I hope this doesn't turn into a "white people have it so hard" discussion or a "non-white people are the real racists" discussion.
cincydooley wrote:I don't think it's getting much better at all.
As we've seen with the Martin and Dunn cases, a large portion of black America is intent on emphatically stating that those two judgements have declared "open season" on black youth.
Coupled with the fact that any black American who's views align more with a conservative viewpoint is labeled an Uncle Tom And the fact that most whites are terrified to talk about race for fear of being blacklisted as a racist, and you've got an equation that hardly screams "better race relations."
timetowaste85 wrote: Kicker was, I'm white, everyone else was either black or Asian. I've got friends of just about every ethnicity, think racism is disgusting, and I was pretty upset at the treatment I got that I'm reasonably sure was due to the color of my skin and what town I was in.
Manchu wrote: I hope this doesn't turn into a "white people have it so hard" discussion or a "non-white people are the real racists" discussion.
I hope what I said didn't come across as that.
While I do think the Martin and Dunn outcomes (and I still don't understand how angry my black friends are about the Dunn one; the dude was simply overcharged and is going to get convicted of the actual murder when they charge him correctly) have given the black community another point to galvanize (especially since Obama basically fell in line with it) how 'racist' America is. I actually think racism is far less of a problem than in the past 50 years, with more and more people at large being less racist; however, because of situations like that, I'm just not convinced "race relations" have improved that much.
More troubling, I think (and this is from an outsiders perspective) is the intraracial prejudice we see evidenced by the treatment of non-liberal blacks in the United States.
I mean, I don't think I have it hard. I think its sad that I've experienced black kids not trusting me because their parents have told them not to trust white people. That just makes me sad. I know that's probably not a widespread thing, but it breaks my heart.
While I do think the Martin and Dunn outcomes (and I still don't understand how angry my black friends are about the Dunn one; the dude was simply overcharged and is going to get convicted of the actual murder when they charge him correctly) have given the black community another point to galvanize (especially since Obama basically fell in line with it) how 'racist' America is.
From the statements I have heard from jurors since the Dunn case, 3 of them actually think that there was nothing wrong with killing the kid and that he did act in self defense even though there was no gun. The only reason he was found guilty on the other charges was because they lived to drive away as he kept shooting. So even a lesser charge wouldn't do anything if 25% of the jurors already thought it was a valid case of self defense to begin with.
It is sad that black parents have to tell their kids to be careful around white people but given the perception that white people kill black kids with impunity ... I mean, that last part is a lot sadder than white folks having hurt feelings.
Manchu wrote: It is sad that black parents have to tell their kids to be careful around white people but given the perception that white people kill black kids with impunity ... I mean, that last part is a lot sadder than white folks having hurt feelings.
Wait... what?
That perception only exists because of hyper-sensationalism. Statistics are very clear that white on black murder is the lowest category of murders. If anything, black parents should be warning their kids to be careful around other black kids.
Manchu wrote: It is sad that black parents have to tell their kids to be careful around white people but given the perception that white people kill black kids with impunity ... I mean, that last part is a lot sadder than white folks having hurt feelings.
Wait... what?
White guy kills black kid because he doesn't like his music. Says it was because he was scared and lied about him having weapons and whatnot. Enough jurors believe him to get away with it.
That perception only exists because of hyper-sensationalism. Statistics are very clear that white on black murder is the lowest category of murders. If anything, black parents should be warning their kids to be careful around other black kids.
Trust me, they know. The same statistics also make it clear that they will all go to jail for black violence.
Manchu wrote:I hope this doesn't turn into a "white people have it so hard" discussion or a "non-white people are the real racists" discussion.
cincydooley wrote:I don't think it's getting much better at all.
As we've seen with the Martin and Dunn cases, a large portion of black America is intent on emphatically stating that those two judgements have declared "open season" on black youth.
Coupled with the fact that any black American who's views align more with a conservative viewpoint is labeled an Uncle Tom And the fact that most whites are terrified to talk about race for fear of being blacklisted as a racist, and you've got an equation that hardly screams "better race relations."
timetowaste85 wrote: Kicker was, I'm white, everyone else was either black or Asian. I've got friends of just about every ethnicity, think racism is disgusting, and I was pretty upset at the treatment I got that I'm reasonably sure was due to the color of my skin and what town I was in.
Too late?
Way to miss the point. I was just as mad about this, as I was when the same thing happened to my black friend from a white waiter. Both were examples of racism, and therefore wrong. Of course I was upset by this discrimination against me. Wouldn't you be? That's common sense.
I don't know... I actually feel things are 'getting better' at a slower rate. It also may be I am now older and see more racism which I was oblivious to when I was younger.
First of all... 'White privilege' exists... same thing with 'Male privilege'. To deny it, perpetuates it. The simple fact that I can go anywhere in NYC, wearing whatever I want and have ZERO expectation to be stopped and frisked shows an inequity... And if I *WAS* stopped and frisked, there is a good chance I would have 'outrage' and be filing complaints and such. Why? because in the world I was raised in, things like that don't happen to me. There are others who are literally being stopped and frisked DAILY just going to work for no other reason but 'being black', and because they know how bad it is and the results of arguing with the police, they just accept it.
Here are two experiences I have had:
A group of us were on a road trip. We stopped at a gas station and while we were there, apparently it was being robbed. The police showed up, pulled their guns and their orders were "All Black people, lie down on the ground with your hands behind your head." They cuffed and rounded up 7 black people at the gas station and set them on the curb. 2 of which were my friends. The police didn't even care what we were doing there, who we were or anything simply because we were white. We tried to explain they were with us and they wouldn't have it. One of my friends argued and got punched in the face by the cop. They looked at the tape, talked to the shop keep and basically 'none' of the people they detained had anything to do with it, the robber was not even Black.
Everyone was let go, we left Georgia quickly. Of course, I in my privilege, I wanted justice, I wanted something to be done, make a complain't get a lawyer. At that point, I never understood why my friends simply 'let it go'. Now being older, I understand it more.
A more recent story... My parents are retiring to South Carolina. We have family there and everyone is 'so nice' down there. So they went to buy furniture and the guy at the furniture store was super nice and professional. He helped them out, did all this stuff, and they got what theyw anted. After all was said and done he asked them a question: "You don't seem to be from around here, are you from up north?" And my parents answered "Yes, we are from washington DC." He responded with, "I knew it. I want to tell you you were really great customers and I appreciate the respect you showed me. Often people refuse to shake hands with me, make eyecontact with me or even let me help them. If you ever need anything with your furniture when you are down here, please let me know." He was an older black man. I can tell that 'southern hospitality' only goes so far and only if you are white.
I am a white male. I am the 'default' in almost all aspects of society... To claim I do not have (and have not used) my privilege perpetuates that privilege. You would be surprised how much help it can be when you see someone being racist or treating someone poorly due to race simply 'stepping in' can do. I do not pretend things are 'better' and do realize things need to change. I also dislike when people claim 'I am colorblind, I don't see race' as that is impossible. If you see someone else being racist, then you see color through their actions. To be 'colorblind' is to not acknowledge racism exists, and in turn is a terrible position to take. You can claim to not take action or have biases based upon race, but to be blind to race and color is being blind to the inequities and disparity.
Other bullet points which I don't feel discussing further:
*Imperialist Europe is the direct cause for all the worlds major issues in the 20th century.
*The Prison system is broken, especially private prisons and are disproportionately unfair to minorities. White people only go to jail for child molestation in this country.
*One of the major reasons LGBT equality has made so much progress in such a short period of time is because a lot of the people who are being discriminated against grew up with 'white privilege' so being discriminated against as a homosexual generates more outrage as they feel they have lost the advantage they were raised to believe they deserve. And people have accepted them back into the 'privileged class' much faster than treating other groups with simple equality. You will find a huge divide between race civil rights people and LGBT Civil rights people and there is huge animosity. Also, The Black homosexual community is heavily discriminated against within the LGBT community.
While I do think things are 'better' from when I was a kid in the 80s and mixed race children were seen as bad, there is a lot of issues still going on, and it seems like progress has plateaued and arguably stagnated as society has said "eh, this is good enuff, they are pretty good but still we are better off so this is a nice place to be."
Manchu wrote: It is sad that black parents have to tell their kids to be careful around white people but given the perception that white people kill black kids with impunity ... I mean, that last part is a lot sadder than white folks having hurt feelings.
Wait... what?
White guy kills black kid because he doesn't like his music. Says it was because he was scared and lied about him having weapons and whatnot. Enough jurors believe him to get away with it.
That perception only exists because of hyper-sensationalism. Statistics are very clear that white on black murder is the lowest category of murders. If anything, black parents should be warning their kids to be careful around other black kids.
Trust me, they know. The same statistics also make it clear that they will all go to jail for black violence.
Cause spending the rest of his life in jail is getting away with it...
I don't think it's fair to say "he got away with it". I'm working off the presupposition that the jury hung on Murder 1 because there is an element of premeditation there that I don't think existed (or more accurately, could be proved). If there is more information on how jurors felt postrial I am not aware of it (is there?). He will be retried and in my opinion convicted (and even if not, he's still going to die in prison). Justice deferred is not justice denied.
Manchu wrote: It is sad that black parents have to tell their kids to be careful around white people but given the perception that white people kill black kids with impunity ... I mean, that last part is a lot sadder than white folks having hurt feelings.
And if I lived in the wards in Houston or East LA I'd be saying the same but opposite. Aint life grand?
Cause spending the rest of his life in jail is getting away with it...
Not spending a single year in jail for killing him means that he got away with it. He was found not guilty of killing him. The fact that he is in prison for shooting at the other guys while they were driving away doesn't mean anything when it comes to the guy he actually killed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote: I don't think it's fair to say "he got away with it". I'm working off the presupposition that the jury hung on Murder 1 because there is an element of premeditation there that I don't think existed (or more accurately, could be proved). If there is more information on how jurors felt postrial I am not aware of it (is there?). He will be retried and in my opinion convicted (and even if not, he's still going to die in prison). Justice deferred is not justice denied.
According to the fancy liberal bastion that is NPR this weekend: Jurors that talked to the media after the trial said that the case started out with two people thinking he had a valid self-defense claim, and by the end 3 of the jurors thought he had a valid self-defense claim.
I was hoping (probably just wishful thinking) that they were just hung on the exactly what level to charge him with, but it seems that 3 of them honestly felt that he did nothing wrong.
The only reason they convicted on the other charges was because he fired as the car drove away.
Cause spending the rest of his life in jail is getting away with it...
Not spending a single year in jail for killing him means that he got away with it. He was found not guilty of killing him. The fact that he is in prison for shooting at the other guys while they were driving away doesn't mean anything when it comes to the guy he actually killed.
Agree... If the victim was in his car alone, Dunn would be free right now. That is a problem to me.
Is white man's burden or check your privelge on Dakka Dakka Bingo?
White guy kills black kid because he doesn't like his music. Says it was because he was scared and lied about him having weapons and whatnot. Enough jurors believe him to get away with it.
And this is the thing for me. We don't have bigotry in the US so much as we have a more subtle form of racism. A black guy walks into a store to buy a nice belt and the store calls the cops on him because... Because. SOme black kids in an SUV playing loud 'thug' music, probably up to no good anyway. White cops pull over a black guy to question him about his shoes cause they're too nice. President must secretly be a Muslim because he's from Kenya.
That stuff happens all the time. If we looked, we could probably pull a story like that from somewhere in the US once maybe twice a day.
I doubt the jurors in the Dunn case hate black people (unless they do XD), but his story was a load of BS worthy of COPS level humiliation. It makes you really question things when people buy into that crap.
Ouze wrote: I don't think it's fair to say "he got away with it". I'm working off the presupposition that the jury hung on Murder 1 because there is an element of premeditation there that I don't think existed (or more accurately, could be proved). If there is more information on how jurors felt postrial I am not aware of it (is there?). He will be retried and in my opinion convicted (and even if not, he's still going to die in prison). Justice deferred is not justice denied.
This is almost exactly where I stand on the situation myself
Also, exalt to nkelsch. Great post, brother.
Anyone claiming they're colorblind is foolish. We of course see color. I just can't personally fathom treating someone different based solely on their skin color. I also know that I'll never experience some of the outward prejudices they have to endure with, most specifically, police. If I were in uniform, I'd have a lot of trouble reconcilling my personal views with statistics on crime.
I count myself fortunate that I have a group of black friends willing to put up with my suburban white guy ignorances about black culture and know when I'm asking questions its really because I want to learn.
According to the fancy liberal bastion that is NPR this weekend: Jurors that talked to the media after the trial said that the case started out with two people thinking he had a valid self-defense claim, and by the end 3 of the jurors thought he had a valid self-defense claim.
I was hoping (probably just wishful thinking) that they were just hung on the exactly what level to charge him with, but it seems that 3 of them honestly felt that he did nothing wrong.
The only reason they convicted on the other charges was because he fired as the car drove away.
I feel like this is more an indictment of Florida's SYG laws (which I don't think I'm for, at least not in the form they exist in Florida).
Don't get me wrong: I actually think Dunn should have been charged with a hate crime (and yes, I know equating 'thug' to 'black' is a slippery slope, but I'm of the mind that for racist america, 'thug' has become a unjustifyably acceptable "november")
OK, from people who use the term, why is it "African American?"
In other places the terms might be "of African origin", or just "black".
I've heard Americans visiting the UK refer to black people as African American, which is wrong for anyone living outside the States.
OK, from people who use the term, why is it "African American?"
In other places the terms might be "of African origin", or just "black".
I've heard Americans visiting the UK refer to black people as African American, which is wrong for anyone living outside the States.
Good old liberal political correctness, my friend.
OK, from people who use the term, why is it "African American?" In other places the terms might be "of African origin", or just "black".
It ends up having to do with differentiating the cultural heritage and actual ethnic origins of people.
"Black" covers a whole lot of people, but it doesn't differentiate between somebody that has been in the country for one day or someone whose family has been here for 250 years.
"African-American" most often refers to people that have been here for multiple generations, the majority of them arriving here through slavery. They are as American as you and me, and the only real connection to Africa is just the color of their skin, but they have a distinct culture that is separate from Caucasians.
"African" or "African origin" are recent immigrants that are actually from Africa. They still have their own culture and customs from there and still have a very strong identity with where they are from. They might be citizens, they might just be here on a visa, they might be 2nd or 3rd generation even. But even after a generation or two there is still a cultural connection there.
Both groups are "black", but they are as different from one another as they are from Caucasians. I don't know if there is a point where children of Africans self-identify more as African-Americans.
(A very simplified explanation, but I hope it gets the point across).
OK, from people who use the term, why is it "African American?" In other places the terms might be "of African origin", or just "black". I've heard Americans visiting the UK refer to black people as African American, which is wrong for anyone living outside the States.
Because thats the current term. To use otherwise is either uncool or racist. I don't make the rules. I just work here.
As an aside, after listening to the juror I can understand why they didn't get murder one (or whatever ther term is there). Whew, she was an idiot...
nkelsch wrote: First of all... 'White privilege' exists... same thing with 'Male privilege'. To deny it, perpetuates it.
Exactly. If the conversation doesn't begin here then we're wasting time.
Then we're wasting time. White/black issues are from 70 years ago. The nation has moved on. We're a true mongrol nation (to use the word from another thread but in its correct context). Also I should note, its not White privilege, its rich privilege.
Remember you pureblood nations, its those smelly Heinz 57 mutts that have the best genes! We've Slavs, Germans, Indians, Mexicans, Mestizos, Yucatan Mayan, Japanese, Czech, CHinese, Vietnamese, Hmong, Congolese, Egyptian, Zulu, Ghanan, Ugandan, Malaysian, Spanish, Argentinian, Brazilian, Aztec, Incan, and pasty UK folk. and one surviving nenderthal. America Hurr!
whembly wrote: I think it's sensationalized in the media... as evidenced by the recent Zimmerman / Dunn trials.
If anything I see more "tribal" discrimination than "racial" discrimination these days...
It's certainly sensationalised in the media, who give lots of screen time to the people who's job it is to make outrageous comments about race, whilefor the most part people just keep on going about their lives. The days of lynchings after a black guy wins the heavyweight title are long behind us.
What do you mean by 'tribal' racism?
I'm assuming he means ethnicity.
Not "tribal racism"... "tribal discrimination". Or, really... discrimination in general that has nothing to do with skin (racial) color.
I can't say if reverse racism actually exists at an institutionalized level. It certainly exists at a micro level.
"Reverse racism" doesn't exist. You are either racist or you are not.
I agree,I think the term "Reverse Racism" is nonsense It basically states that racism can then be only perpetrated by white people. That is not the case can assure you.
We're a nation of mutts... it's time everyone recognize it and deal with it.
EDIT: ninja'ed a loooog time ago by Frazzled. Should've read to the end of the post before posting.
But people don't recognize or deal with it... And while it is a nice dream, we are not there yet. To deny the situation as it is now is to reinforce it.
While people are 'mutts' and the idea of your exact heritage is not a reality anymore, People are being judged, treated differently, discriminated against, hated and other actions based upon nothing but their skincolor and not because their heritage. It does exist, it does happen, and lighter your skin, the better you are treated and the more opportunities are open to you. While being rich carries its own set of privilege in our society, skincolor and gender are two which cannot be hidden while things like sexual orientation and wealth are not always 'visible' for people to make their snap judgments and act upon or discriminate against.
And you can claim it is economic, but that is not true as time and time again, poor whites can exercise privilege and rich blacks are discriminated against. While there are a lot of economic lines which parallel race to say the race component is 'gone' and it is pure economic is simply not true especially when race is part of what causes those economic lines.
nkelsch wrote: First of all... 'White privilege' exists... same thing with 'Male privilege'. To deny it, perpetuates it.
Exactly. If the conversation doesn't begin here then we're wasting time.
I think it is hilarious when privileged people feel like they are being persecuted. Especially when they turn around and start pointing the fingers at minority groups in the country , more of a religious thing but i've seen some horrible stuff pointed towards muslims. Crazy medieval style crap which then deteriorated to iunfighting between the christians about who's version of the bible is correct. I was dumb founded , I was raised with the understanding that all humans are equal and deserve the right to be who they are... I thought this was the land of the free and home of the brave not land of the ignorant and the land of cowards. That's what racism is hate bred by ignorance and fear.
We're a nation of mutts... it's time everyone recognize it and deal with it.
EDIT: ninja'ed a loooog time ago by Frazzled. Should've read to the end of the post before posting.
But people don't recognize or deal with it... And while it is a nice dream, we are not there yet. To deny the situation as it is now is to reinforce it.
While people are 'mutts' and the idea of your exact heritage is not a reality anymore, People are being judged, treated differently, discriminated against, hated and other actions based upon nothing but their skincolor and not because their heritage. It does exist, it does happen, and lighter your skin, the better you are treated and the more opportunities are open to you. While being rich carries its own set of privilege in our society, skincolor and gender are two which cannot be hidden while things like sexual orientation and wealth are not always 'visible' for people to make their snap judgments and act upon or discriminate against.
And you can claim it is economic, but that is not true as time and time again, poor whites can exercise privilege and rich blacks are discriminated against. While there are a lot of economic lines which parallel race to say the race component is 'gone' and it is pure economic is simply not true especially when race is part of what causes those economic lines.
Me thinks you haven't been around the poor whites in appalachia....
I'm afraid the Dakka Assembly is dead locked. The only motioned passed were Justin Beiber should be deported back to Canada, ex-Felons should be allowed to vote, and that Blaming the Victim is acceptable (the final motion barely passed).
Me thinks you haven't been around the poor whites in appalachia....
You would be super wrong. Going to school in a poor coal mining town in the middle of the appalachias and seeing over the past 15 years the negative reaction to see their little state college grow into a more diverse campus. These people are poor, uneducated, barley survive and almost all income comes from the college, but yet they still discriminate and complain about having blacks in their town because of the college. That area still runs on the good old boy system which is drawn purely on race lines.
Now elsewhere, in WV where I have had property for 10 years, It is different, but similar. Lots of poor whites, almost no minorities, but basically the service and trade of that area basically is 'everyone knows everyone'. And if you are not white, not only can you not get anyone to help you, but literally no one will help you. They will turn away business from paying customers based upon skin color, and other people who may not have an issue are afraid to take that work out of fear of retaliation from the rest of the town. But they *love* me because I am white and need services. I have a handyman who handles a lot of my stuff and basically he often has to do work in secret for people out of fear of retaliation for helping specific minorities. People are too proud (ignorant) to take work because they don't want to fix a black man's plumbing.
Oh, And good luck driving down mainstreet with out of state tags and being black. I had an event with like 30-40 people at my house and literally 100% of my friends who were black got 'pulled over' and K9 sniffed for drugs on main street. I literally have to give them different directions to my house to avoid mayberry cops. They sit in the main intersection in town and basically waive people over 'at random' for drug sniffing. "random"
Can't we all agree that donkey-caves exists?
Yeah, donkey-caves exist. Denying that society still sees and acts based upon race and that people who are the 'default' are treated 'better' helps keep those donkey-caves going strong.
Me thinks you haven't been around the poor whites in appalachia....
You would be super wrong. Going to school in a poor coal mining town in the middle of the appalachias and seeing over the past 15 years the negative reaction to see their little state college grow into a more diverse campus. These people are poor, uneducated, barley survive and almost all income comes from the college, but yet they still discriminate and complain about having blacks in their town because of the college. That area still runs on the good old boy system which is drawn purely on race lines.
Now elsewhere, in WV where I have had property for 10 years, It is different, but similar. Lots of poor whites, almost no minorities, but basically the service and trade of that area basically is 'everyone knows everyone'. And if you are not white, not only can you not get anyone to help you, but literally no one will help you. They will turn away business from paying customers based upon skin color, and other people who may not have an issue are afraid to take that work out of fear of retaliation from the rest of the town. But they *love* me because I am white and need services. I have a handyman who handles a lot of my stuff and basically he often has to do work in secret for people out of fear of retaliation for helping specific minorities. People are too proud (ignorant) to take work because they don't want to fix a black man's plumbing.
Then I stand corrected... I apologize for being presumptuous.
Can't we all agree that donkey-caves exists?
Yeah, donkey-caves exist. Denying that society still sees and acts based upon race and that people who are the 'default' are treated 'better' helps keep those donkey-caves going strong.
I disagree... donkey-caves will ALWAYS find a reason to be donkey-caves.
Yeah, donkey-caves exist. Denying that society still sees and acts based upon race and that people who are the 'default' are treated 'better' helps keep those donkey-caves going strong.
I disagree... donkey-caves will ALWAYS find a reason to be donkey-caves.
But I could say:
"Ahhh, Those Plumbers were probably really busy"
"Ahhhhhhh, It was probably just random pulling over, if you have nothing to hide, what is the big deal?"
"Ahhhhhhh, Judging college students on their actions is probably valid, I don't think they are doing it along race... I mean They just don't want to hear 'thug' music in their town and those kids are 'bad guests' in their town."
I am denying there is an issue and justifying the actions of donkey-caves by pretending that these actions are not based upon pure ignorant race-based judgements. And then those who are simply not impacted go along pretending nothing is wrong.
"Everyone in town is great! I get plumbers out same day!"
"Oh, I never get pulled over, they are just doing their job, I feel safer!"
"This town loves its kids! I feel like the entire town takes care of us college students and gives us deals and is happy to see us!"
BAM! I have just made racism not exist anymore! And now all those 'donkey-caves' are nice, happy members of society doing nothing wrong. Nothing to see here!
Unless you are black, but that becomes your issue.
Yeah, donkey-caves exist. Denying that society still sees and acts based upon race and that people who are the 'default' are treated 'better' helps keep those donkey-caves going strong.
I disagree... donkey-caves will ALWAYS find a reason to be donkey-caves.
But I could say:
"Ahhh, Those Plumbers were probably really busy"
"Ahhhhhhh, It was probably just random pulling over, if you have nothing to hide, what is the big deal?"
"Ahhhhhhh, Judging college students on their actions is probably valid, I don't think they are doing it along race... I mean They just don't want to hear 'thug' music in their town and those kids are 'bad guests' in their town."
I am denying there is an issue and justifying the actions of donkey-caves by pretending that these actions are not based upon pure ignorant race-based judgements. And then those who are simply not impacted go along pretending nothing is wrong.
"Everyone in town is great! I get plumbers out same day!"
"Oh, I never get pulled over, they are just doing their job, I feel safer!"
"This town loves its kids! I feel like the entire town takes care of us college students and gives us deals and is happy to see us!"
BAM! I have just made racism not exist anymore! And now all those 'donkey-caves' are nice, happy members of society doing nothing wrong. Nothing to see here!
Unless you are black, but that becomes your issue.
I'm afraid the Dakka Assembly is dead locked. The only motioned passed were Justin Beiber should be deported back to Canada, ex-Felons should be allowed to vote, and that Blaming the Victim is acceptable (the final motion barely passed).
Did we agree on blaming the victim? I feel like there were some riders attached....
Yeah, donkey-caves exist. Denying that society still sees and acts based upon race and that people who are the 'default' are treated 'better' helps keep those donkey-caves going strong.
I disagree... donkey-caves will ALWAYS find a reason to be donkey-caves.
But I could say:
"Ahhh, Those Plumbers were probably really busy"
"Ahhhhhhh, It was probably just random pulling over, if you have nothing to hide, what is the big deal?"
"Ahhhhhhh, Judging college students on their actions is probably valid, I don't think they are doing it along race... I mean They just don't want to hear 'thug' music in their town and those kids are 'bad guests' in their town."
I am denying there is an issue and justifying the actions of donkey-caves by pretending that these actions are not based upon pure ignorant race-based judgements. And then those who are simply not impacted go along pretending nothing is wrong.
"Everyone in town is great! I get plumbers out same day!"
"Oh, I never get pulled over, they are just doing their job, I feel safer!"
"This town loves its kids! I feel like the entire town takes care of us college students and gives us deals and is happy to see us!"
BAM! I have just made racism not exist anymore! And now all those 'donkey-caves' are nice, happy members of society doing nothing wrong. Nothing to see here!
Unless you are black, but that becomes your issue.
Where did I say racism doesn't exist? o.O
But trying to deny 'white privilege' doesn't exist... If people are being discriminated against because they are black, then that means 'someone else' is 'not being discriminated against' because they are 'not black'. Hence being society's default gives you a privileged existence. Denying that privilege exists is the same as denying the discrimination exists.
I'm sure most of you are familiar with the claims that Jesus was a black man and that the ancient Egyptians were also black.
Well, Jesus certainly wasn't white either, and there certainly were black Egyptians, the idea that the empire was composed of people of a uniform ethnic background is pretty silly considering its history.
My waitress in a restaurant in Hackensack, NJ spent the entire evening ignoring me, and spent the whole time flirting with two guys at another table. Took her 15 minutes to come take my order AFTER someone told her to, she asked me once how everything was, never refilled my water, and didn't even wish me a good night after she brought the check. Just dropped it and left to go flirt with the other guys. And take care of her one other table. Kicker was, I'm white, everyone else was either black or Asian. I've got friends of just about every ethnicity, think racism is disgusting, and I was pretty upset at the treatment I got that I'm reasonably sure was due to the color of my skin and what town I was in.
Hackensack? For real dude? LOL Hackensack is like half white. No the real issue is that you're from Connecticut, it seems New Jerseyans instinctively sense Connecti***** in their vicinity, and generally don't care much for your state or the people that live there... the sad thing is that though I'm (mostly) being humorous, this is something that seems to actually be somewhat true based on my own personal experiences.
In any case, race is a self-perpetuating myth. There is no scientific basis for 'race', its entirely a social construct founded entirely on hate and discrimination. This will probably start a shitstorm, but i'm just going to say that the reactionary approach taken by the victims of racism is probably just as bad as racism, for altogether different reasons... primarily because it continues to perpetuate the concept of race, as well as feeding into the us versus them mentality that is at the heart of the problem.
But trying to deny 'white privilege' doesn't exist... If people are being discriminated against because they are black, then that means 'someone else' is 'not being discriminated against' because they are 'not black'. Hence being society's default gives you a privileged existence. Denying that privilege exists is the same as denying the discrimination exists.
But trying to deny 'white privilege' doesn't exist... If people are being discriminated against because they are black, then that means 'someone else' is 'not being discriminated against' because they are 'not black'. Hence being society's default gives you a privileged existence. Denying that privilege exists is the same as denying the discrimination exists.
False. Absolutely false.
But, your arguments now makes sense.
Isn't being free from most discrimination a privilege?
Again perceptions has changed on me....saying "Donkey Caves" means to me a supply point in the mountains for insurgents. Supplies were brought in by donkey's.
Its like the word "Illegal" Alien is now not P.C.
I do not care if JC is Caucasian, Egyptian tan, Roman white, Arabic tan, Jewish tinted, Spanish shade of tan, or Gaul naked. He bleed red right?
Seen both type shot....since I'm half asian....three types...we all bleed red...wait we had one Hispanic that got his finger caught in the SAW when the bolt went forward...so four...even the Insurgents bleed red..one big thing about it...we were all linked by the same cause/purpose/battle buddies.
To actually answer the OP, I'm going to give the most stereotypical liberal arts answer possible: it's complicated.
At this point, overt bigotry is one of our culture few taboos. On of the first things anybody with a juvenile sensibility does when freed from consequences is engage in taboos, so the internet is going to be full of racist (and homophobic/sexist) slurs. It's a cheap and easy troll. So I don't know how much I'd read into that.
On a broader level, that taboo has made it very difficult to actually talk about racism. Everybody has done a part here, from hypersensitive minority groups to white people that seem to think that since they got over racism, so should everybody else.
I think that our hope is to teach younger generations that tolerance is a virtue, not that bigotry is a taboo. Right now, I think a large chunk of the population is worried about being perceived as racist, but not overly concerned about actual racial issues.
Of course, any racial conversation is eventually going to lead to a tough talk about money. White people (and asians) have most of it, black people (and many hispanics*) have almost none. So, for white people, we actually don't want to have any sort of serious dialogue, because it will mean losing wealth.
* I am aware that hispanics are not a race, but in any serious discussion about race, you have to include them. Also, most mestizos have notably different skin tone from those of only european descent. They also identify as a race, and not as white and/or mixed.
Frazzled wrote: How McCarthylike like of you. " Are you now or have you ever been a member of Racist Party?"
Believe in my way or be a racist. It must be heavenly to live in a cacoon that brooks no doubt of your established dogma.
You think that I am saying: "only racists reject the notion that racism is currently a problem in the US"?
Well, not really. Someone who thinks racism is not currently a problem in the US might not be a racist. She or he might simply be completely out of touch with reality. But those aren't mutually exclusive characteristics. In fact, being out of touch and being racist pretty commonly go together.
But to your point, I do think it's a very strong sign of racism to argue that racism isn't a problem.
Alright, fair enough, still it would really be of great benefit to society if they were educated in the reality that race has no true scientific basis/its a social construct. Thinking back to my own education, they tell us that racism is derived from things like social darwinism and earlier movements, etc. and that its wrong to think of people of other races as being inferior, because we're all human, etc. but they DON'T ever actually go so far as to refute the concept of race (or at least explain that it is simply a social construct developed at some point in the past based on fake science similar to the aforementioned social darwinism).
Polonius wrote: Right now, I think a large chunk of the population is worried about being perceived as racist, but not overly concerned about actual racial issues.
That may be true (I don't think it is, however) but it doesn't really deal with the fact that actual racial issues are currently a problem in this country. Maybe you meant to distinguish between perception and reality there but your readership is clearly not following.
And I suppose we're going to have to get there at some point so, cross burning and lynch mob style racism isn't the only kind. Polonius does make a good point that there is a strong taboo around this kind of overt racism -- but that doesn't mean much about the continued patterns of racism that strongly characterize US society right now. Racism is much more a matter of presumption (both in terms of privilege and prejudice) carried out via micro-aggression or even micro-passive-aggression.
So, for example, the unspoken lyric to "Everyone's A Little Bit Racist" seems to be "and so being a little bit racist is justified." Here's one of the actual refrains:
"Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!"
But trying to deny 'white privilege' doesn't exist... If people are being discriminated against because they are black, then that means 'someone else' is 'not being discriminated against' because they are 'not black'. Hence being society's default gives you a privileged existence. Denying that privilege exists is the same as denying the discrimination exists.
False. Absolutely false.
But, your arguments now makes sense.
-
Isn't being free from most discrimination a privilege?
Here's what I reject...
Just because I'm white... doesn't mean that I'm free from most discrimination.
Gather 'round... gotta some things to tell ya...
- I lived in California till I was about 3. During some of that time, my parents were poor and needed help feeding the family.
- We still joked about being "on government cheese", because one of the things you could get is "this brick of Cheese" that you can't buy, which was very similar to Velveeta.
- At 18 months old, I had spinal meningitis. It kicked my ass with high fevers and all that... was in coma for 6 weeks.
- Shortly after I recovered, it was discovered that my hearing was damaged. If the audiogram was even a smidgon worse, I'd be totally deaf. As such, I wear big, fething, powerful hear aids. I'm what audiologist coined "power junkie" because I simply need it to blast my ear. I don't need all that fancy-smancy digital crap.
- By 3, mum and dad divorced... mum/kids moved back to Missouri to live with our Grandparents.
- I never whet to the St. Louis Special School District and my mom believed (rightly so if I may add) that I should be integrated in a normal class room. (thus, I never learned sign language)
- As you can imagine... growing up as the only deaf kid in the classroom was... well, you know... kids are vicious.
- By Jr. High, it was worse... I was fighting all the time. (my dad had an epic confrontation with the princple... but, that story is for another time)
- My mom then registered me in a Magnet School in St. Louis City. Evidently, I was smart enough. - Yes, I road the cab to school every day... part of the desegregation program. (white kid going to predominately black school)
- More than half of the student population were black, and we ALL got a long. (albeit it's a very small school)
- However, this was in the city in which many of my black friends lived in. The would ALWAYS escort me around the neighborhood. Why? Because I would be targetted because I'm white. I didn't wig out... I didn't rail against this... that's the way things were/are.
- Went to College... had to take loans to cover it. I wasn't black enough, or poor enough to qualify.
- I'll be paying my school loans for the next 24 year. ($492/ mo)
- I've had serveral discussions regarding white privilege on this forum (Ragnar, Mancu, Azazel, dogma, among others)...
Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?
nkelsch wrote: First of all... 'White privilege' exists... same thing with 'Male privilege'. To deny it, perpetuates it.
Exactly. If the conversation doesn't begin here then we're wasting time.
Then we're wasting time. White/black issues are from 70 years ago. The nation has moved on. We're a true mongrol nation (to use the word from another thread but in its correct context). Also I should note, its not White privilege, its rich privilege.
Then we're wasting time. White/black issues are from 70 years ago. The nation has moved on. We're a true mongrol nation (to use the word from another thread but in its correct context). Also I should note, its not White privilege, its rich privilege.
I thought it was self evident. Maybe where you live its black/white. Where I live in Houston it’s a melange of Browns, with “black” and “white” each as a minority. Where I live in Austin its more of a mix, with a lot of Indians and Asians.
Is there racism? Sure. Tribalism? Sure. Classism? Sure. The human race is like Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States. But isn’t that the point of that preachy rabbi? Its going to take a while and a lot of effort.
How McCarthylike like of you. " Are you now or have you ever been a member of Racist Party?"
That’s for you and accusing others of trolling because they don’t agree with you.
Oh and one more thing, Veritch inferior, Zentraedi female power armor superior!
Privilege is just like any other advantage. Some people have more then others. Sometimes the prom king is also a straight A student and the Quarterback. Sometimes kids are dumb, anti-social, and uncoordinated. Life isn't fair in that regard.
But you point out a really good example of how privilege works. In your case, you've gotten through despite being disadvanged. But wouldn't your life be easier if you didn't face those obstacles?
And, even more on point, do you think your life would be better or worse if you were black instead of white?
1. Things are never a bad as the media (net included) make them seem.
2. Things like this seem to go through cycles, usually when bigger problems are exasperating things.
3. Racism still exists, and probably will forever. Tribalism originally served an evolutionary purpose. Now it's a malfunction in the human brain ironically keeping us from our full potential.
4. I consider judging someone by the color of their skin rather than the content of their character to be a true crime against humanity. I.e., anyone who uses the phrase "check your privilege" unironically needs a mental high colonic.
Frazzled wrote: I remember govenment cheese. I swear that stuff would survive a nuclear attack.
We grew up poor. My grandma used to make amazing soup out of that and stewed tomatoes. I miss real government cheese.
So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?
If white male privilege exists why do so few people take advantage of it? I'd be really more concerned about Asian Male privilege since they are currently out earning the very privileged white males year after year. Can you honestly name a single industry or profession that actively discourages non-whites from joining its workforce?
What I'm going to post goes beyond "white privilege" but I don't know how a young, white, somewhat healthy, middle-class, male living in Canada free from physical disabilities (the only thing I have going against me is I'm a little short and I may have some mental disabilities or some
mystery disease but I haven't ever been diagnosed so who knows) like myself when looking at the rest of the world (globally) does not have thoughts about how much better they have it and how it's purely chance you're born into that type of status.
Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?
You would be correct that society is built for 'abled bodied' people as the default and that things are much harder for people with any form of handicap. To deny that handicapped people have issues, less opportunities, artificial barriers and are not discriminated against is a problem.
And non-handicapped people may not be overtly discriminatory against the handicapped, but by not having to face any of the institutional adversary because the system is set to function 'correctly' for them means it is 'out of sight'. To then claim it doesn't exist helps perpetuate it.
There are a lot of issues in the hearing-impaired community, especially around schools and education. The statistics are if a hearing-impaired child is not on grade level by 4th grade, they are forever going to be behind and have limited productivity their entire life. One of the big issues is it is actually CHEAPER for schools to pay for corrective surgery or implants for kindergartners and mainstream them than accommodate sign language. Of course there are people who believe in a 'deaf culture' which means those kids then need extra education and in-class accommodations in order to succeed, but studies show those actions can cause harm to children and put them farther behind further in life.
But those are things that you had to experience which I did not. My life was easier, I had more opportunities which were closed to you and those add up, especially generation over generation. To deny those advantages exist or that I use them daily trivializes or attempts to eradicate your experience even if I am not directly discriminatory to you is still not a good thing.
Even in today's world... Are you telling me if you went to a job interview which you were perfectly qualified for and possibly more qualified for than other people, but the job had issues (like conference calls with clients, meetings via voice and so on) all of which could be overcome or realistically would be minimum impact to you actually performing your duties, you don't think that a employer might simply say "Ugh, I don't want to deal with TTY machines or explaining to our clients about our deaf employee. Candidate 2 is slightly less qualified or about the same, but has no issue... I can hire him without appearing discriminatory".
Now multiply that across thousands of people all over the world and across generations, and you have an institutional issue which is keeping whole groups of people down. To deny it, perpetuates it, and it takes generations of understanding and institutional change. It sucks, but frankly it takes not just tolerance, but old people dying off and true acceptance in the next generation. Now compare that to race relations, the gap is wider, generational and more ingrained into society. Your personal experience with being white in a high minority area doesn't invalidate the the wide-spread issues. And the simple fact that if someone snapped your fingers and moved you to another place on the planet and a large number of your 'issues' would have been instantly resolved for no other reason but the color of your skin shows there is an issue.
(FYI: My company does work for NIDCD, the NIH institude for Deafness and Communication disorders so I will say for a fact we all live in a 'hearing privilege' world. I think the disparity is much less because even the worst discriminatory person doesn't feel deaf people are subhuman animals, but there is a divide and it does impact the hearing impaired negatively)
Cheesecat wrote: What I'm going to post goes beyond "white privilege" but I don't know how a young, white, middle-class, male living in Canada (the only thing I have going against me is I'm a little short) like myself when looking at the rest of the world (globally) does not have thoughts about how much better
they have it and how it's purely chance you're born into that type of status.
I would expand that to being born any race/ethnicity or gender into a middle or upper class family in the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and select European countries has a significant advantage over the rest of the world. You can include South Korea, Japan, and possibly China as well into that mix, but in those cases it is specifically only Asians that benefit and males have an advantage over women.
If you were to say there is a rich privilege I could wholeheartedly agree with that, but the existence of a white male privilege would suggest that a white male born into a poor family somehow has advantages over a nonwhite male born into a middle or upper class family. That is ludicrous.
So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?
Of course not. I would say any serious discussion would start with the premise there is racism everywhere, including the USA. EDIT: and since US America is BEST America how can we help reduce that...
Manchu wrote: So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?
Of course not.
So do you accept that white (and male) privilege currently exist in the US?
Manchu wrote: So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?
Of course not.
So do you accept that white (and male) privilege currently exist in the US?
I accept that there is racism and sexism in the US.
But since I'm being harangued about it I will prove Polonius' point and opt out of the discussion further.
Privilege is just like any other advantage. Some people have more then others. Sometimes the prom king is also a straight A student and the Quarterback. Sometimes kids are dumb, anti-social, and uncoordinated. Life isn't fair in that regard.
What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.
But you point out a really good example of how privilege works. In your case, you've gotten through despite being disadvanged. But wouldn't your life be easier if you didn't face those obstacles?
Sure it'll be easier... but, I'm dealt with certain cards in my life and I've learned to deal with them on my own. I don't begrudge anyone who has it easier or harder in life. I think that's an awful way to live *obsessing* about other people that way...
And, even more on point, do you think your life would be better or worse if you were black instead of white?
How would I know? Unless I do some projection on what it's like being black...
Based on years of discussing this with you on Dakka and seeing the kind of stuff you post, I have a pretty solid guess as to what you think. But to avoid misrepresenting you, I am trying to get you to flat out state your thoughts on white and male privilege. It's not my fault that doing so, and cutting through off-topic wiener dogs and government cheese comments, is like pulling teeth.
What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.
It's not missing at all. White privilege isn't fair. But it's not some kind of natural condition or physical law, if that's what you mean. It's a system of oppressing some people for the benefit of others. It's a pretty complicated system and the people who benefit from it have every incentive to pretend it doesn't exist.
Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?
You would be correct that society is built for 'abled bodied' people as the default and that things are much harder for people with any form of handicap. To deny that handicapped people have issues, less opportunities, artificial barriers and are not discriminated against is a problem.
You see, here's the distinction...
As evident by your passionate discussion about this, you care about this subject matter.
Me? I don't care that "society is built for 'abled bodied' people as the default and that things are much harder for people with any form of handicap". Because that's a "view point" one can have about *life* in general.
I acknowledge that some things are more difficult for me than others. But, so what? I've learned to deal with it. I take it MY responsibility to adapt/overcome my own deficiencies... if I can't hear you, I'll ask you nicely to repeat yourself or ask you to yell at me.
EVERYONE has some sort of disadvantage in life. Yes, some more than others.... again, that's life.
And non-handicapped people may not be overtly discriminatory against the handicapped, but by not having to face any of the institutional adversary because the system is set to function 'correctly' for them means it is 'out of sight'. To then claim it doesn't exist helps perpetuate it.
I don't buy that viewpoint... sorry.
There are a lot of issues in the hearing-impaired community, especially around schools and education. The statistics are if a hearing-impaired child is not on grade level by 4th grade, they are forever going to be behind and have limited productivity their entire life. One of the big issues is it is actually CHEAPER for schools to pay for corrective surgery or implants for kindergartners and mainstream them than accommodate sign language. Of course there are people who believe in a 'deaf culture' which means those kids then need extra education and in-class accommodations in order to succeed, but studies show those actions can cause harm to children and put them farther behind further in life.
I'm well aware of those challenges...
But those are things that you had to experience which I did not. My life was easier, I had more opportunities which were closed to you and those add up, especially generation over generation. To deny those advantages exist or that I use them daily trivializes or attempts to eradicate your experience even if I am not directly discriminatory to you is still not a good thing.
What?
Just so that you know... imo, that's one hella spin to justify the arguments for "blank"-privilege and that it also came across condescending.
Even in today's world... Are you telling me if you went to a job interview which you were perfectly qualified for and possibly more qualified for than other people, but the job had issues (like conference calls with clients, meetings via voice and so on) all of which could be overcome or realistically would be minimum impact to you actually performing your duties, you don't think that a employer might simply say "Ugh, I don't want to deal with TTY machines or explaining to our clients about our deaf employee. Candidate 2 is slightly less qualified or about the same, but has no issue... I can hire him without appearing discriminatory".
Yep. I was discriminated out a few jobs.
Did I rail against "The Man" because if this? No... I just dealt with it by mentally saying "Your loss dude" and I moved on.
Now multiply that across thousands of people all over the world and across generations, and you have an institutional issue which is keeping whole groups of people down. To deny it, perpetuates it, and it takes generations of understanding and institutional change. It sucks, but frankly it takes not just tolerance, but old people dying off and true acceptance in the next generation. Now compare that to race relations, the gap is wider, generational and more ingrained into society. Your personal experience with being white in a high minority area doesn't invalidate the the wide-spread issues. And the simple fact that if someone snapped your fingers and moved you to another place on the planet and a large number of your 'issues' would have been instantly resolved for no other reason but the color of your skin shows there is an issue.
First of all, I'm not discounting racism. They exists and will ALWAYS exists because there's seem to be a finite amount of donkey-caves needed in society.
What I'm challenging is the whole mindset that legitimizes white privilege, hearing privilege, MALE privilege...etc...
Life is much more complicated to encapsulate these into these privilege "categories".
(FYI: My company does work for NIDCD, the NIH institude for Deafness and Communication disorders so I will say for a fact we all live in a 'hearing privilege' world. I think the disparity is much less because even the worst discriminatory person doesn't feel deaf people are subhuman animals, but there is a divide and it does impact the hearing impaired negatively)
Here's a secret. I don't view this impact as being "negative"... only that it's different.
What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.
It's not missing at all.
That's your opinion...
White privilege isn't fair. But it's not some kind of natural condition or physical law, if that's what you mean. It's a system of oppressing some people for the benefit of others. It's a pretty complicated system and the people who benefit from it have every incentive to pretend it doesn't exist.
O.o
So... we shouldn't ignore the man behind the curtains?
Based on years of discussing this with you on Dakka and seeing the kind of stuff you post, I have a pretty solid guess as to what you think. But to avoid misrepresenting you, I am trying to get you to flat out state your thoughts on white and male privilege. It's not my fault that doing so, and cutting through off-topic wiener dogs and government cheese comments, is like pulling teeth.
What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.
It's not missing at all. White privilege isn't fair. But it's not some kind of natural condition or physical law, if that's what you mean. It's a system of oppressing some people for the benefit of others. It's a pretty complicated system and the people who benefit from it have every incentive to pretend it doesn't exist.
Cue the conspiracy music. Where is the evidence of there being an actual system in place instead of any perceived white privilege being the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy. Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.
Just because people adapt and overcome doesn't mean that it makes it less unfair or that it shouldn't be addressed. You seem to think because you chose to overcome and not complain that nothing should be done to address the institutional issues which will continue to put those barriers in front of future generations?
The first step to removing those barriers and addressing the situation is to admit the inequity exists, and those who have the advantage in the inequity change their behavior to not perpetuate the inequity or to combat it when they see it. Expecting the people who the system is designed to interfere with to simply 'figure it out' or 'rise above it' doesn't solve the problem.
And you don't see 'Being passed over for a job explicitly because your hearing but you can't prove it because proving discrimination is expensive, hard to prove and costs money only available to those are already at the 'top' as 'negative' then I don't know what to tell you. Being Deaf is not negative, the way society throws barriers in your way to make your life harder because you are not the 'default' is a negative. Sure you can overcome discrimination, you are forced to... doesn't mean it is ok or should be accepted. (or pretend it doesn't exist)
cincydooley wrote: With all things equal, middle class white males actually have less avenues for college scholarships than middle class females or minorities....
So there's that....
Maybe they should just try harder. I mean, I got a scholarship, so that shows that there's no real problems there. [/sarcasm]
Does anybody know what ratio of scholarship money is keyed to minority status? I know a lot of the special interest stuff is, but that's usually small potatoes compared to what schools give.
trexmeyer wrote: Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.
I am sure all the middle-class women and minorities who have the same experience and education but make less and have lower titles than their white male counterparts take great comfort in your statements which basically tell them that there is nothing 'institutional' preventing them from being treated equally.
Polonius wrote: Right now, I think a large chunk of the population is worried about being perceived as racist, but not overly concerned about actual racial issues.
That may be true (I don't think it is, however) but it doesn't really deal with the fact that actual racial issues are currently a problem in this country. Maybe you meant to distinguish between perception and reality there but your readership is clearly not following.
Yeah, i guess I meant that for most people, "racial awareness" is more about how not to get caught saying or doing something racist, not how to actually be tolerant or progressive.
Cue the conspiracy music. Where is the evidence of there being an actual system in place instead of any perceived white privilege being the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy. Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.
I'm actually not sure. I don't know if we really have generational studies that filter out class advantage. I'd wager that middle class black men still disproportionately go to prison, but I could be wrong there.
Still, getting into the middle class is far more likely for white (and asian) men then black or latino. I mean, "the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy" are still white privilege.
Don't confuse privilege with organized discrimination. It's usually relatively benign, incremental stuff. The size of an inheritance, the likelihood of being a legacy at a good college, having job opportunities because your family knows a business owner, that kind of thing.
Frazzled wrote: Remember you pureblood nations, its those smelly Heinz 57 mutts that have the best genes!
We've Slavs, Germans, Indians, Mexicans, Mestizos, Yucatan Mayan, Japanese, Czech, CHinese, Vietnamese, Hmong, Congolese, Egyptian, Zulu, Ghanan, Ugandan, Malaysian, Spanish, Argentinian, Brazilian, Aztec, Incan, and pasty UK folk. and one surviving nenderthal. America Hurr!
You left out Irish. I'll give you some time to go back and fix your error
cincydooley wrote: With all things equal, middle class white males actually have less avenues for college scholarships than middle class females or minorities....
So there's that....
And yet there is an enrollment gap between whites and minorities... Scholarships are almost as if someone is leveling the playing field for generations of systematic institutional hardship which has prevented minorities from having access to higher education?
Women do out enroll Men 57%to 43%, but women also have to systematically prove themselves at all levels of employment over men and often need to be overqualified to their male counterparts to compete for the same job.
So I'm confused: if you think that there is no such thing as white privilege, what do you think racism means in the US? Is it in your mind just a purely personal phenomenon of citizen X having a problem with citizen Y because of race? You don't think it is a systemic, historical form of oppression that anyone benefits from?
trexmeyer wrote: Where is the evidence of there being an actual system in place instead of any perceived white privilege being the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy.
You ask for evidence but then characterize current white dominance of American politics and the economy as a "lingering remnant of centuries" past?
nkelsch wrote: Just because people adapt and overcome doesn't mean that it makes it less unfair or that it shouldn't be addressed. You seem to think because you chose to overcome and not complain that nothing should be done to address the institutional issues which will continue to put those barriers in front of future generations?
The first step to removing those barriers and addressing the situation is to admit the inequity exists, and those who have the advantage in the inequity change their behavior to not perpetuate the inequity or to combat it when they see it. Expecting the people who the system is designed to interfere with to simply 'figure it out' or 'rise above it' doesn't solve the problem.
How 'bout this.
Give me examples.
And you don't see 'Being passed over for a job explicitly because your hearing but you can't prove it because proving discrimination is expensive, hard to prove and costs money only available to those are already at the 'top' as 'negative' then I don't know what to tell you
Woah, woah there... project much?
Not once, did my default response is to sue. I'm a very practical person... I have to be. Otherwise, I'd go nutso.
Being Deaf is not negative,
Thanks!
the way society throws barriers in your way to make your life harder because you are not the 'default' is a negative. Sure you can overcome discrimination, you are forced to... doesn't mean it is ok or should be accepted. (or pretend it doesn't exist)
trexmeyer wrote: Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.
I am sure all the middle-class women and minorities who have the same experience and education but make less and have lower titles than their white male counterparts take great comfort in your statements which basically tell them that there is nothing 'institutional' preventing them from being treated equally.
Cue the conspiracy music. Where is the evidence of there being an actual system in place instead of any perceived white privilege being the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy. Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.
I'm actually not sure. I don't know if we really have generational studies that filter out class advantage. I'd wager that middle class black men still disproportionately go to prison, but I could be wrong there.
Still, getting into the middle class is far more likely for white (and asian) men then black or latino. I mean, "the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy" are still white privilege.
Don't confuse privilege with organized discrimination. It's usually relatively benign, incremental stuff. The size of an inheritance, the likelihood of being a legacy at a good college, having job opportunities because your family knows a business owner, that kind of thing.
I agree with your last statement Pol. I vehemently disagree with Manchu's claim of it being systematic oppression.
manchu wrote: It's a system of oppressing some people for the benefit of others.
Polonius wrote: Yeah, i guess I meant that for most people, "racial awareness" is more about how not to get caught saying or doing something racist, not how to actually be tolerant or progressive.
Yes I agree with that. A lot of white people seem to think refraining from burning crosses on black folks' lawns or refraining from lynching them or maybe just having greater than or equal to one black friend(s) proves that they cannot possibly be racist/if they are racist otherwise then it is okay and justified racism.
trexmeyer wrote: I vehemently disagree with Manchu's claim of it being systematic oppression.
If racism is not a function of systematic oppression then why do the same patterns of racial inequality (black marginalization and white privilege) persist over time?
Polonius wrote: Don't confuse privilege with organized discrimination.
I'm not sure what you meant to teach trex by posting this but I am 99% certain that it requires clarification.
Don't confuse privilege with organized discrimination. It's usually relatively benign, incremental stuff. The size of an inheritance, the likelihood of being a legacy at a good college, having job opportunities because your family knows a business owner, that kind of thing.
Maybe that's where my confusion is...
But again, to me... those things you listed there explicitedly are all part of life.
So I'm confused: if you think that there is no such thing as white privilege, what do you think racism means in the US? Is it in your mind just a purely personal phenomenon of citizen X having a problem with citizen Y because of race? You don't think it is a systemic, historical form of oppression that anyone benefits from?
trexmeyer wrote: Where is the evidence of there being an actual system in place instead of any perceived white privilege being the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy.
You ask for evidence but then characterize current white dominance of American politics and the economy as a "lingering remnant of centuries" past?
Whites are the majority of the population, they should dominate politics and the economy through sheer numbers alone. The issue is whether or not their representation among the economic and political elite is greater than their percentage of the general population. In politics they are without a doubt over represented by a significant margin. The only nonwhite group that comes close to being represented accurately are African-Americans (8.1% of Congress vs 13.6% of the general population).
whembly wrote: You make it sound like it's done on purpose.
Sometimes marginalization is intentional. But it does not stop being marginalization simply because it is unintentional. Part of not being in the "default population" is that you are factually excluded in some ways from a world that is intentionally designed for the default population.
trexmeyer wrote: Whites are the majority of the population, they should dominate politics and the economy through sheer numbers alone.
They do dominate politics and economy but not by sheer numbers. The racism we are talking about is seen in advantages and disadvantages disproportionately enjoyed/suffered by certain populations.
whembly wrote: You make it sound like it's done on purpose.
Sometimes marginalization is intentional. But it does not stop being marginalization simply because it is unintentional. Part of not being in the "default population" is that you are factually excluded in some ways from a world that is intentionally designed for the default population.
whembly wrote: But again, to me... those things you listed there explicitedly are all part of life.
The question is not (or should not be), Is racism a part of life? -- the answer to that question is (or should be) self-evidently YES. The questions are, Why is it a part of life? and How can we make it less a part of life?
whembly wrote: But again, to me... those things you listed there explicitedly are all part of life.
The question is not (or should not be), Is racism a part of life? -- the answer to that question is (or should be) self-evidently YES. The questions are, Why is it a part of life? and How can we make it less a part of life?
True.
But, those things that Polonius listed isn't racism.
How about that old chestnut we've been chewing over for so long, voter ID laws? And let's discuss it this time without even referencing race (since I know we totally disagree about that). Even taking proponents of voter ID laws at their word that these laws are designed to protect elections (rather than marginalize the poor), they are still designed for a default population (those who have state-issed ID) and not for others.
whembly wrote: But, those things that Polonius listed isn't racism.
They aren't overtly racist because, as Pol mentioned, there are extremely strong taboos around overt racism. But they are still connected to systemic racism. Black people do not just happen to be disproportionately poor, undereducated, and imprisoned. That's not just a law of nature. That's the result of a system established and propagated by those in power, who themselves don't just happen to be disproportionately white.
I would be eagerly interested in a hearty discussion made surrounding the concepts of bootstrapping and white privilege
I take you on Daedalus. First..
1. Is joining the US military consider boot strapping or self improvement?
2. Clarify "white" privilege vs entitlement?
3. Are we as a Nation becoming to dependent on government entitlements and hand outs?
whembly wrote: You make it sound like it's done on purpose.
Sometimes marginalization is intentional. But it does not stop being marginalization simply because it is unintentional. Part of not being in the "default population" is that you are factually excluded in some ways from a world that is intentionally designed for the default population.
Examples please?
Jobs saying 'must be able to lift 50lbs and have excellent verbal communication skills' to legally discriminate against handicapped people.
Companies hiring a handicapped person, but that employee now needs special technology to be able to do their work, and now the internal bureaucracy now means that employee is 'on the bench' possibly for weeks while they get TTY, special desks, high contrast monitors, special touchpads and so on for them to 'begin work'. Sends the signal they are not welcome or at least will always be at risk of 'well, you can't do the work so it isn't discrimination'.
Is it intentional? Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is companies being cheap and bureaucratic and simply not being able or willing to 'adapt' to anything not the default.
Having worked at a company which explicitly works in the handicapped field and seeing the steps a company to take to do above the 'bare minimal' required by law so we can employ all levels of physical handicaps with almost no impact to productivity, it is night and day. We ran the clearing house for handicap equipment and accessibility needs.
The simple fact they need laws to prevent discrimination shows that it is an issue, and the laws help but don't go all the way. Things are 'better than they were' but are not 'as good as they could be'. The sad fact is some companies pay handicapped people less due to the 'costs' of making the company accessible for them or because they claim they can't do some of the required job duties. It happens every day. The employee may not realize it many times, sometimes they may and simply don't want to rock the boat because their experiences have shown accommodating jobs for thier disability are few and far between... but it doesn't mean discrimination is not happening and that there are not barriers, intentional or not.
Now apply race, where barriers are based upon ignorance and hate, not bottom lines and inconvenience... And increase the population impacted and combine that with generations after generations of marginalization. Are we to just 'ignore' that and tell people 'that's life?'
whembly wrote: But, those things that Polonius listed isn't racism.
They aren't overtly racist because, as Pol mentioned, there are extremely strong taboos around overt racism. But they are still connected to systemic racism. Black people do not just happen to be disproportionately poor, undereducated, and imprisoned. That's not just a law of nature. That's the result of a system established and propagated by those in power, who themselves don't just happen to be disproportionately white.
Jobs saying 'must be able to lift 50lbs and have excellent verbal communication skills' to legally discriminate against handicapped people.
Companies hiring a handicapped person, but that employee now needs special technology to be able to do their work, and now the internal bureaucracy now means that employee is 'on the bench' possibly for weeks while they get TTY, special desks, high contrast monitors, special touchpads and so on for them to 'begin work'. Sends the signal they are not welcome or at least will always be at risk of 'well, you can't do the work so it isn't discrimination'.
Is it intentional? Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is companies being cheap and bureaucratic and simply not being able or willing to 'adapt' to anything not the default.
Better start screaming at your Senators and Rep's. The US Military hugely discriminates against Handicaps.
must be able to lift 50lbs and have excellent verbal communication skills'
Just curious. How many "correct" push ups can you do? Is "street talk/slang" consider excellent verbal communication skills?
I would be eagerly interested in a hearty discussion made surrounding the concepts of bootstrapping and white privilege
I take you on Daedalus. First..
1. Is joining the US military consider boot strapping or self improvement?
I've heard described as either. Personally, I'd consider it probably closer to self-improvement, but that's because everyone I know has gone into the military because they couldn't find any other stable jobs. Most of the people I know who have gone in have either done it right out of high school, or during the financial crisis. With most of those people, there was no real "sense of duty" they had, and they didn't even pursue the GI Bill or look into college afterward.
Interesting that you bring the military into this. I don't know the intimate specifics of how the whole "pays for college" thing works, but you'd think that there would be more disadvantaged minorities taking that route to improve their situation.
2. Clarify "white" privilege vs entitlement?
Well, "white" privilege from this thread appears to be basically any benefits that white people enjoy from their white heritage. I'm sure someone will happily correct me if that's wrong. I really don't like the word entitlement. I feel like it's been hijacked to have a negative connotation it shouldn't. All men are genuinely entitled to certain things. These things we generally call rights. Entitlement is a good thing. On the other hand, some people feel entitled to things, often wrongly. Generally when people sling around entitlement as a pejorative, it appears to be for the latter.
As there are arguably real effects to white privilege, I'd say there are certain amounts of overlap in places, but I don't think they're the same thing. I guess you could say that someone who enjoys white privilege who adamantly denies there is no problem might be entitled because he things so. I would suggest that he's naive instead, because odds are it's more accurate and feels less accusatory. Something along a general unawareness of the world vs. the notion of the fat cat villain protesting even as he enriches himself from the sweat of the less fortunate. There's implying that you're deliberately benefiting, and then there's being unaware of an implicit advantage manufactured by a social construct.
3. Are we as a Nation becoming to dependent on government entitlements and hand outs?
That question has spurred threads upon threads of debate. I'd suggest that we're not so long as anyone is desperate enough to do things like commit crimes specifically to be housed and fed in a climate controlled facility, but that oversimplifies things and is somehow still likely to spawn a 30 page graph copypasta fight.
cincydooley wrote: With all things equal, middle class white males actually have less avenues for college scholarships than middle class females or minorities....
So there's that....
And yet there is an enrollment gap between whites and minorities... Scholarships are almost as if someone is leveling the playing field for generations of systematic institutional hardship which has prevented minorities from having access to higher education?
Women do out enroll Men 57%to 43%, but women also have to systematically prove themselves at all levels of employment over men and often need to be overqualified to their male counterparts to compete for the same job.
Blaming institutional hardship is irresponsible. Blame the a culture that places less emphasis on the importance of education.
We don't see those same enrollment gaps with Asian and Indian students because the culture places a heavy emphasis on education.
So please, don't reduce it to "institutional hardship" and remove any personal accountability.
Culture is part of the 'institution.' When people are talking about Insititutional Racism, they're not just talking about organizations and business. They're talking about society and the mechanisms that make it up which have institutionalized racism. Culture and society are the institution being discussed.
I've heard described as either. Personally, I'd consider it probably closer to self-improvement, but that's because everyone I know has gone into the military because they couldn't find any other stable jobs. Most of the people I know who have gone in have either done it right out of high school, or during the financial crisis. With most of those people, there was no real "sense of duty" they had, and they didn't even pursue the GI Bill or look into college afterward.
Interesting that you bring the military into this. I don't know the intimate specifics of how the whole "pays for college" thing works, but you'd think that there would be more disadvantaged minorities taking that route to improve their situation.
There's a few on here that called it "Boot Strapping". Granted I will admit its the best way to get out of a bad situation, job security (contract), steady pay on the 1st and the 15th, and additional perks like Airborne, Pathfinder, Warrant class, and free training and the POST 9/11 GI Bill cannot be beat. All funded by tax payer's. That's where the "Boot strapping" comes in. Yet we trade a bit of our civilian rights for how many years we signed up for.
I did it because there literally was no jobs in my area to make it worth my wild. Let's look at the minorities in this country. How are they influence and what their perception is. Why go into a life of regimentation while I can go "Gangsta" or play's the system to their advantage. Why get paid and have taxes on it compare to getting paid under the table.
Well, "white" privilege from this thread appears to be basically any benefits that white people enjoy from their white heritage. I'm sure someone will happily correct me if that's wrong. I really don't like the word entitlement. I feel like it's been hijacked to have a negative connotation it shouldn't. All men are genuinely entitled to certain things. These things we generally call rights. Entitlement is a good thing. On the other hand, some people feel entitled to things, often wrongly. Generally when people sling around entitlement as a pejorative, it appears to be for the latter.
As there are arguably real effects to white privilege, I'd say there are certain amounts of overlap in places, but I don't think they're the same thing. I guess you could say that someone who enjoys white privilege who adamantly denies there is no problem might be entitled because he things so. I would suggest that he's naive instead, because odds are it's more accurate and feels less accusatory. Something along a general unawareness of the world vs. the notion of the fat cat villain protesting even as he enriches himself from the sweat of the less fortunate. There's implying that you're deliberately benefiting, and then there's being unaware of an implicit advantage manufactured by a social construct.
That "White Privilege" irks me like the "N-word" (title). Its outdated and a throwback to...say...1950ish till I say late 80ish..90ish on I going to say this probably apply's to everyone now. those that think they are "privilege". Like the world owes them something for nothing. Example be the 15-20 dollar an hour burger flipper. The entitlements are being abused left and right, up and down, and 12 ways to Sunday. We're like on the same sheet of music. I just think they really really need to update the policy and verify it all....dang I loss my frame of mind on this..
That question has spurred threads upon threads of debate. I'd suggest that we're not so long as anyone is desperate enough to do things like commit crimes specifically to be housed and fed in a climate controlled facility, but that oversimplifies things and is somehow still likely to spawn a 30 page graph copypasta fight.
What's the breaking point? You have, what, under half the Nation paying the other half entitlements and getting taxed more (figure of speech). If MIT can come up with a theory of Warp drive then why get some of their caliber to overhaul the system lol. The problem is the fear of "Change"...Xanax kicked in quicker then I thought
cincydooley wrote: That onus is on the black community. Not a single other institution.
A community does not exist within a vacuum.
The question to ask is thus: why has that community evolved in that way?
In the end, "white privilege" is an answer to a simple question: if races are inherently equal in inherent ability, why are they so different in achievement?
There's some thought that a lot of the aspects of poor culture (which overlaps heavily with black culture) are not as self destructive as they appear.
If they were self destructive they'd have been weeded out ages ago and behavior would stop. The behaviors of people in underprivileged environments are the result of surviving in that environment, with the catch-22 of leaving one unprepared to actually get out of it.
This is why Ain't No Making it should be required reading in any sociology class. Acting like the poor can just fix their own problems isn't realistic and completely ignores the reality of being poor. They don't have the time or the money to fix their situation and society ignores their situation.
choices are made within. The person or community.
Choices are limited by environment. Someone who has to work 70 hours to provide for themselves and their family has remarkably few choices. A child surrounded by gang violence and who sees how hard the adults in their lives work for little payout and has no educational support is left with a very slim chance to succeed. "Just stop being poor and underprivileged" is not a choice. It's the crying of the privileged who want to ignore that underprivileged can't just snap their fingers and hard work their problems away.
LordofHats wrote: If they were self destructive they'd have been weeded out ages ago and behavior would stop. The behaviors of people in underprivileged environments are the result of surviving in that environment, with the catch-22 of leaving one unprepared to actually get out of it.
This is why Ain't No Making it should be required reading in any sociology class. Acting like the poor can just fix their own problems isn't realistic and completely ignores the reality of being poor. They don't have the time or the money to fix their situation and society ignores their situation.
choices are made within. The person or community.
Choices are limited by environment. Someone who has to work 70 hours to provide for themselves and their family has remarkably few choices. A child surrounded by gang violence and who sees how hard the adults in their lives work for little payout and has no educational support is left with a very slim chance to succeed. "Just stop being poor and underprivileged" is not a choice. It's the crying of the privileged who want to ignore that underprivileged can't just snap their fingers and hard work their problems away.
Didn't you just say it wasn't a closed environment Hats? In that vacuum, the self destructive environment would succeed. But it's not a vaccuum.
Didn't you just say it wasn't a closed environment Hats? In that vacuum, the self destructive environment would succeed. But it's not a vaccuum.
In an openness/closeness of the environment doesn't matter. Self-destructive behavior is still self-destructive. The behaviors aren't self-destructive as much as they are self-perpetuating. The poor tend to stay poor, one generation to the next, not because they're ruining their own chances but because the chances aren't available to them. Their educations are poor because they don't have the money and the brilliance of policies like No Child Left behind. Their underpaid and overworked which comes from the economy at large. Our culture/media tells them their weak and stupid for not being successful.
Most people in that situation don't have the time, money, or education to escape so they end up with behaviors that function at the level they're in (and that's not just african americans, its the poor overall). That environment isn't the product of one group its the product of our society. We create that environment for underprivileged as much as they create it for themselves. Not on purpose, that's just the way the gears of the system end up turning.
Except your not factoring in the fact that the outside is propping it up, and helping to perpetuate it.
We do it all over the world. Look at Africa. That place should have imploded years ago, but we keep supplying them with jut enough to keep it from going full tilt crazy.
djones520 wrote: Except your not factoring in the fact that the outside is propping it up, and helping to perpetuate it.
I just said that... Right here;
That environment isn't the product of one group its the product of our society
That place should have imploded years ago, but we keep supplying them with jut enough to keep it from going full tilt crazy.
So we should give ourselves a pat on the back for taking up our white/rich(?) man's burden then? Well don't we feel special not doing anything while pretending we've done everything we can. Ignoring that a bunch of poor kids living in downtown Chicago don't live in Africa.
What I was trying to say is that self destructive environment probably would have imploded, and maybe grown into something new, had we just completely left it alone. But we won't because we're human and we'll do whatever we can to help, even if it's the worse thing possible.
Nice way to make this a thing about racial superiority though.
You're the one talking about how we keep the poor people in Africa from going to gak not me.
What I was trying to say is that self destructive environment probably would have imploded, and maybe grown into something new,
You should watch Code Geass. LeLouch of the Rebellion is totally behind watching millions of people die in a juvenile attempt to fix a problem that won't be fixed by letting millions of people die. We don't even help Africa that much. If anything some of the things we do make things worse.
And again. A poor kid in downtown Chicago doesn't live in the Congo (unless there's another Chicago in the Congo )
Nice way to make this a thing about racial superiority though.
You said it not me I mean really. Right here;
That place should have imploded years ago, but we keep supplying them with jut enough to keep it from going full tilt crazy.
I didn't say that you did. You can pretend the sentiment is something else, but it is what it is.
Yes, we don't do a lot. Like I said, we do just enough to keep the system going, not change it. And yes, some of the things we do, do make it worse, as I also said. So thank you for reiterating my points.
I was also just pointing at Africa as a good example, but we could point to South Chicago, East St. Louis, Detroit, Watts, etc... if you'd like.
Its the same thing. You can pretend it isn't, but it is. We dress up the problem as something else that is easier/more PC to ignore and go on ignoring it. Saying we prop up poor neighborhoods in the US (or Africa, or wherever) and save them from being more like a living hell is just a veiled reference you throw out to justify ignoring the problem/pretending it doesn't exist/isn't your problem anymore.
I'm actually fine with the last of those options. People don't care about a lot of things, but they can at least be honest about it.
I was also just pointing at Africa as a good example, but we could point to South Chicago, East St. Louis, Detroit, Watts, etc... if you'd like.
Africa is none of those places. Solving problems of poverty, discrimination, poor education, and their perpetuation in our own country is very different from trying to do it on another continent.
I did it because there literally was no jobs in my area to make it worth my wild. Let's look at the minorities in this country. How are they influence and what their perception is. Why go into a life of regimentation while I can go "Gangsta" or play's the system to their advantage. Why get paid and have taxes on it compare to getting paid under the table.
The reasons you would that I can think of:
Gangsta life probably still more dangerous.
Pay relatively unreliable.
Unsustainable in the long term.
If I can come up with those good reasons why not to, why can't someone of the "gangsta" persuasion? One thing I have read about is the notion of abuse and criminal activity being genetically hereditary. This is interesting, but troubling at the same time. Persecuting people because they may have a gene that encourages violence is not a thing I ever want to see in society.
That "White Privilege" irks me like the "N-word" (title). Its outdated and a throwback to...say...1950ish till I say late 80ish..90ish on I going to say this probably apply's to everyone now. those that think they are "privilege". Like the world owes them something for nothing. Example be the 15-20 dollar an hour burger flipper. The entitlements are being abused left and right, up and down, and 12 ways to Sunday. We're like on the same sheet of music. I just think they really really need to update the policy and verify it all....dang I loss my frame of mind on this..
I don't care much for the term either, but I can't suggest a better one. I'm not quite sure that's the word I'd compare it to. The interesting thing about the 15-20 dollar an hour fast food guy: Those guys qualify for governmental aid. Since those guys are being directed via their corporate overlords to seek governmental aid, you and I are effectively paying them out of our pockets to work there anyway, and it's by design of their employers. I do not think minimum wage is a livable wage. I've done it before. It's not sustainable unless you're living in some sort of Fight Club style squalor. You can't build a safety net, and if you have an accident of some sort, you may never recover.
So, as I see it, there are four options:
- Cut those programs and risk creating an underclass that becomes desperate and dangerous when they fall into situations they can't get out of.
- Increase minimum wage to a livable amount. I've seen interesting arguments on both sides of the fence here. At least then, I know that instead of my taxes being spread out to sustain all minimum wage jobs, my money only gets spread out to minimum wage employees who's services I actually use.
- Pass some sort of law putting limits on the amount of pay the highest paid employees of a company can receive in relation to the lowest paid employees.
- Do nothing and let this continue.
What's the breaking point? You have, what, under half the Nation paying the other half entitlements and getting taxed more (figure of speech). If MIT can come up with a theory of Warp drive then why get some of their caliber to overhaul the system lol. The problem is the fear of "Change"...Xanax kicked in quicker then I thought
That's a very good question. I don't have the answer to that. I don't think that "killing all aid programs and let the chips fall where they may" is a viable one though. I don't think anyone really ENJOYS living poorly on someone else's dime. I believe that humans are social animals, and have the need to be socially worthwhile. I think that if the disadvantaged thought there was some way they could ever wind up in a stable, even middle class environment, and were taught how to achieve that goal, they would strive for it. I have been accused of being naive though.
How about that old chestnut we've been chewing over for so long, voter ID laws? And let's discuss it this time without even referencing race (since I know we totally disagree about that). Even taking proponents of voter ID laws at their word that these laws are designed to protect elections (rather than marginalize the poor), they are still designed for a default population (those who have state-issed ID) and not for others.
How on earth are "they designed" for a default population?
Jesus, when will you stop "talking in those terms" and look at the Blacks, Women, Beiber-lovers as simply fething Americans with diverse backgrounds.
I swear, discussing the following terms: "x-privilege", "default population", and whathaveyous perpetuate these angsts between these groups.
Not the point. It's still a policy that disproportionately effects certain classes of people.
Not all obstacles or advantages are huge, but they are cumulative.
How so?
The poor uses government welfare programs much more than the middle/rich class... no? Because... they're poor and as such need help.
As such, when registering for these said benefits.. you know, to fething eat... get power for their house... get reduced rates on their gas bills. They must show a state (or federal) ID at the time for registering these programs.
How come we never really hear about people complaining for the need to ID themselves to be able to get on foodstamp programs, housing assistance, utility assistance???
Wouldn't you consider having heat, putting food on the table, having a roof over your head a much more immedidate importance than voting?
And yet, when election season comes, it's somehow more difficult to show your ID at the polls, than it is to show your ID when registering for welfare help???
whembly wrote: I swear, discussing the following terms: "x-privilege", "default population", and whathaveyous perpetuate these angsts between these groups.
Not really. Acknowledging reality is the necessary first step to addressing it. But that line of thought (similar to the "let's just be colorblind" nonsense) is a very common defense mechanism.
whembly wrote: I swear, discussing the following terms: "x-privilege", "default population", and whathaveyous perpetuate these angsts between these groups.
Not really. Acknowledging reality is the necessary first step to addressing it. But that line of thought (similar to the "let's just be colorblind" nonsense) is a very common defense mechanism.
How come we never really hear about people complaining for the need to ID themselves to be able to get on foodstamp programs, housing assistance, utility assistance???
People have complained about the need to present ID for as long as it has been a requirement, and as such it is no longer news. Hell, my grandmother still complains about it.
The requirement regarding voting is news because, unlike access to most state services and privileges, voting is an implied right.
dogma wrote: =whembly 581085 6566839 05660003dd83ed7c53ae82ba11bd5dd1.jpg]
Wouldn't you consider having heat, putting food on the table, having a roof over your head a much more immedidate importance than voting?
You don't generally need a photo ID to verify your identity when apply for foodstamps, housing assistance, or utility assistance.
There's about 10 states that explicitedly requires it... not sure if that's a new phenomenon. (I think it is tbh). Virgina is one of that states.
The fact of the matter is that you need valid photo identification to establish your identity in order to qualify for government programs as well. So all this brouhah that Voter ID laws are evil Republican plans to disenfranchise Democratic leaning voters is hogwash.
So.. for those that keeps claiming that fraud is non-existant... why is this person in Mississppi jail for 10 years?
Also, there is this: It appears that, in order to receive Obamacare subsidies, enrollees need to show state-issued identification.
The problem with admitting that white privilege might actually exist is that you would also have to admit that there is a chance that your own success might not be 100% because of your awesome bootstrapping skills...
d-usa wrote: The problem with admitting that white privilege might actually exist is that you would also have to admit that there is a chance that your own success might not be 100% because of your awesome bootstrapping skills...
d-usa wrote: The problem with admitting that white privilege might actually exist is that you would also have to admit that there is a chance that your own success might not be 100% because of your awesome bootstrapping skills...
I'd classify the problem as having to buy into a bunch of social justice warrior bs.
A lot of what is perceived as racism by both the perpetrators and those that accuse is actually stereotypes associated with certain cultural traits and social standing. White nationalists who use the 'proof' of blacks being more likely to commit crime by crime figures would ignore both the poverty levels of ghettos and also any institutionalised profiling used by law enforcement with arrests and treatment of minorities. Also this has a knock on effect with feelings of mistrust between communities and the police which will only further antagonise relations between the two.
We all will stereotype to an extent, it's quite human; but the point is not erasing all stereotypes for the sake of political correctness, but realising how ridiculous they are in the first place as an indicator of catagorising all human beings and laughing about it. Modern civilisation has proven that race is absolutely no guarantee of behaviour but culture and up-bringing most definitely is.
I am not responsible for how others treat me based on my race and gender; but if we all just judged on merit and character things would be a lot smoother for everyone.
Siberiandreamer wrote: A lot of what is perceived as racism by both the perpetrators and those that accuse is actually stereotypes associated with certain cultural traits and social standing. White nationalists who use the 'proof' of blacks being more likely to commit crime by crime figures would ignore both the poverty levels of ghettos and also any institutionalised profiling used by law enforcement with arrests and treatment of minorities. Also this has a knock on effect with feelings of mistrust between communities and the police which will only further antagonise relations between the two.
We all will stereotype to an extent, it's quite human; but the point is not erasing all stereotypes for the sake of political correctness, but realising how ridiculous they are in the first place as an indicator of catagorising all human beings and laughing about it. Modern civilisation has proven that race is absolutely no guarantee of behaviour but culture and up-bringing most definitely is.
I am not responsible for how others treat me based on my race and gender; but if we all just judged on merit and character things would be a lot smoother for everyone.
trexmeyer wrote: What I am sure of is that there a great deal of angry, antisocial young white males with misplaced hatred toward African-American males for being perceived superior athletes and having superior genetics
Wait what? That sounds way off the mark. If anything, being good at sport is one of the few positive stereotypes black people have. Black athletes are usually highly respected and admired. If there is misplaced hatred towards black people then it probably stems from the inherent difficulty in understanding how complex socioeconomic conditions, and institutionalized racism have led to black people being way overrepresented in the prison population... Or something like that.
Causality aside, if all people see around them is black youths 'busin caps' committing crimes, black kids on youtube playing 'knock-out', and black neighborhoods being dangerous run-down ghettos, then they are going to draw their own conclusions.
I'm not saying racists are right by any measure, in fact my personal opinion is that they are very wrong. But I don't mind admitting that it took me a lot of soul searching to get there, because it directly contradicts my personal experience growing up in a big city, where it seemed like every mugger was black, and every bad neighborhood was black, and that many black people are way more racist than white people and unashamedly so. I remember being in at a rave in Hackney where the MC was just shouting out "kill the white man!" repeatedly over the microphone, like it was a normal thing (Hackney if you don't know it is one of the areas devastated during the 2011 riots, and has quite a high immigrant population).
I'm happy to accept anyone on an individual person by person basis. But I do at least require that they don't hate (or consider me genetically inferior?!?) because I'm white, and they don't go around mugging old ladies and invading people's homes. That isn't good PR for any race, and there isn't really any excuse for it.
trexmeyer wrote: What I am sure of is that there a great deal of angry, antisocial young white males with misplaced hatred toward African-American males for being perceived superior athletes and having superior genetics
Wait what? That sounds way off the mark. If anything, being good at sport is one of the few positive stereotypes black people have. Black athletes are usually highly respected and admired.
Unless you are an expat, I don't think you are really familiar with this issue. I routinely hear white males dismiss black athletes out of hand with comments such as "He's only fast/athletic/good because he's black," and then if the individual is a poor athlete it turns into, "You're black, why aren't you faster/stronger/etc?" There is a lot of resentment, but it's behind closed doors or on the internet.
The most visible example of this resentment is the excessive praise directed towards white athletes who excel or are merely above average in a sport dominated by blacks (specifically those of West African descent). When Peyton Hillis showed some promise as the first good white running back in years he became a media godsend. The same is true for Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki, but at least those two are among the best in the league at their respective specialties. It's a bit of an open secret that many (not all) white sports fan are more than happy to root for a player just because he is white.
I remember watching the 100 meter finals at the Olympics last year. All 8 finalists were black, 5 of whom were from the Caribbean. and I doubt anyone was surprised. Are you saying that black athletes dominating nearly every sport is just coincidence?
I don't think it is just a coincidence. I think there is a higher incidence of world class athletes among African Americans. And if that is the case, then maybe it just makes them less interesting. After all everyone loves an underdog. Just because people want to see a white guy win a boxing match for a change doesn't necessarily mean everyone is a racist.
Youtube comments are so fascinating. The only place where a video with a kitten chasing its tail has arguments about American foreign intervention, or something.
djones520 wrote: What I was trying to say is that self destructive environment probably would have imploded, and maybe grown into something new, had we just completely left it alone. But we won't because we're human and we'll do whatever we can to help, even if it's the worse thing possible.
There's an old joke, about two socialists walking down the streets of London when they come across a beggar. The first feels for the man, and goes to give him some money, the second grabs the hand of the first - 'don't do it comrade, you'll delay the revolution!'
The joke, of course, is poking fun at the all too common idea among socialists that nothing must be done for the poor, as it would only serve to delay the revolution and the move to classless utopia.
Imagine my surprise to see that same idea being put forward here, albeit from the exact opposite end of the political spectrum.
Jesus, when will you stop "talking in those terms" and look at the Blacks, Women, Beiber-lovers as simply fething Americans with diverse backgrounds.
I swear, discussing the following terms: "x-privilege", "default population", and whathaveyous perpetuate these angsts between these groups.
I'd have to agree with whembly I don't get the whole obsession with seperating people in the US of A . I can't think of a time i called someone an asian Australian or an indigenous Australian as a general term. They are all Australians. though I must admit i do call aborigines abodigines (thank you Zoolander)
trexmeyer wrote: What I am sure of is that there a great deal of angry, antisocial young black males with misplaced hatred toward white and asian males for being perceived superior graduates and earners in most fields
Wait what? That sounds way off the mark. If anything, being smart and successful is one of the few positive stereotypes white and asian people have. White scientists, businessmen and engineers are usually highly respected and admired.
Unless you are an expat, I don't think you are really familiar with this issue. I routinely hear black males dismiss white businessmen out of hand with comments such as "He's only successful/good because he's white," and then if the individual is a poor earner it turns into, "You're white, why aren't you richer?" There is a lot of resentment, but it's behind closed doors or on the internet.
The most visible example of this resentment is the excessive praise directed towards black scientists/businessmen who excel or are merely above average in an arena dominated by whites and asians (specifically those of Northern European/Eastern Asian descent). It's a bit of an open secret that many (not all) black consumers are more than happy to root for a business owner just because he is black.
Smacks wrote: I remember watching the Nobel prize in physics. All the winners in the last ten years were white or asian. and I doubt anyone was surprised. Are you saying that white or asian scientists dominating nearly every nobel prize award ceremony is just coincidence?
I don't think it is just a coincidence. I think there is a higher incidence of world class scientists among whites and asians. And if that is the case, then maybe it just makes them less interesting. After all everyone loves an underdog. Just because people want to see a black guy win a (real) Nobel Prize for a change doesn't necessarily mean everyone is a racist.
sebster wrote: There's an old joke, about two socialists walking down the streets of London when they come across a beggar. The first feels for the man, and goes to give him some money, the second grabs the hand of the first - 'don't do it comrade, you'll delay the revolution!'
Reminds me of the recent softening of the embargo against Iran. I asked one of my Iranian family what he thought about it, he told me the positive side was that it would ease things a lot for Iranians, the bad thing being that this will allow the current regime to stay in place for longer.
It is not the same as the joke because he did not have any power over it, but it is still a quite similar situation.
Maybe it's me. I've read this and the links a few times now and everything about it screams "separate but equal" which is actually not surprising because racial separation is actually the long stated goal of Nation of Islam.
I don't know about racism in the US, but it is probably nothing compared to Russia.
Chernys (blacks) are universally despised in Russia. Especially if they are from the Caucasas (People from the Caucasas are already black in Russian eyes).
For example: I heard a story about a Caucasian man (note: despite Americans messing up the already messy term, Caucasian does not mean white) who lived in Southern Russia and who got severely beaten up by a bunch of racists.
The man limped to the Cossacks (the local law enforcement) in order to report the crime. The Cossacks acted friendly and patched him up a bit. They asked the man for his adress and told him they would look into the crime.
So the man went back home, but when he entered the street where he lived he saw a Cossack car in front of his house and the Cossacks were putting a fire to his house. The man tried to run and stop them, but he was still injured and as soon as the Cossacks had got the house burning they left. the man's family was luckily saved from the flames, but their house burned down completely.
These kind of things happen a lot in Russia, and people are almost never persecuted for it.
It is understandable when looking at Russian history, but it is still sad.
Racism is pretty much everywhere in Russia (and the Ukraine as well for that matter), so it was pretty much a culture shock for me when I got to the Netherlands and had to adjust to the political correctness surrounding 'tinted' (not black!) people here. I probably caused quite a lot of offense at first but I am happy to report that I have since seen the error of my ways and now have a much higher opinion of black people.
Seeing the history of the US, I would guess that race relations are a lot more sensitive in the US, but from the little I've heard the US does not seem racist at all when compared to Europe, altough I would also imagine that it is a larger issue in the US because the US, unlike most European states lacks a distinct ethnicity. I guess the whole melting pot/salad bowl thing makes race relations a lot more important to the US.
In general I would like to say that the internet is always worse than the 'real world'. On the internet, people are anonymous and thus dare to voice more extreme opinions than in real life.
Someone may hate black people and voice that on the internet, but he may still treat black people nicely in real life, out of fear of what the community will think about him if he becomes known as a racist.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Reminds me of the recent softening of the embargo against Iran. I asked one of my Iranian family what he thought about it, he told me the positive side was that it would ease things a lot for Iranians, the bad thing being that this will allow the current regime to stay in place for longer.
It is not the same as the joke because he did not have any power over it, but it is still a quite similar situation.
The difference being that Iran's regime actually is more stable without the sanctions. The homeless guy getting some money doesn't decrease the chance of revolution, just like US aid to Africa doesn't in any way prevent the chance that there might be some kind of vague political change.
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Manchu wrote: LOL well said. But in this case, I don't think there is any genuine desire to see the revolution.
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I mean really. Right here;
