Forgotten King, our third expansion, is an exciting new starting point for playing games of Super Dungeon Explore with your friends. This Kickstarter is Soda Pop Miniatures first self-published Super Dungeon product. Its purpose is to deliver an enhanced game experience that updates gameplay for veteran players, while providing a perfect entry point for new players.
Forgotten King is a stand-alone board game that includes everything you need to play your games of Super Dungeon Explore, including: a complete and updated rulebook, 51 preassembled miniatures, 6 beautifully illustrated double-sided dungeon tiles, counters, and game cards.
We'll that's certainly sooner than I expected. And as I stated before, I'm not certain how to approach this. I love the SDE stuff but a non-CMON SPMks is uncharted water. Could be a good or bad thing.
The lack of co-op was the biggest barrier for me not getting into SDE before- now, assuming stars align (have the cash, things look cool, doesn't get bloated with exclusives) I'll be all over this.
Really surprised about this. Very much. Knew they'd be KSing a potential 2nd Ed this year. Hadn't heard any rumblings of them KSing Forgotten King, and I was a part of the playtest team.
Is there some kind of drama that I missed? I sure could use something fun to read right about now, really boring day at work today...
but, this looks good. personally I'd pick SDE over the new CMON game just because it's been around a while and people like it. This may be just the tool I need to finish turning my nephews into gamernerds. The conversion process is nearly complete...
DaveC wrote: Looks like I'll be dropping Arcadia Quest there's no contest and I kind of hope they do overlap by a few days
Why drop one?
Mmm Dreadball Xtreme, SDE, Impact's 3rd chibi KS, Mercs Recon, Antenociti sci-fi terrain - to many KS and the $90 is better spent elsewhere there was no KS for 2 months then a flood again!
Oh god, I forgot about Antenociti and their awesome looking Gunship concepts. So my previous KS wasn't my last and my next KS won't be my last either. Maybe it will be the one after that..
I would back this, but SPM has a buttload of my money in Kickstarter limbo for Relic Knights. They mighta wanted to fulfill that one before launching another.
BTW, kickstarter backers should be aware that there have been many, many delays on the Relic Knights kickstarter. That in itself isn't a deal breaker, but the communication definitely has been sup par.
They paid for at least 2 trips to China, and no backers have any product yet. Good job spending those KS funds! :sarcasm:
Just be prepared, based on past performance, that you will get your product... some time... when they get to it. Who knows, maybe they'll put Relic Knights further on the backburner and get this out more quickly. Roll the dice, see what you get. Who knows.
For this? I'll go ahead and wait for retail. If at all.
So wait, instead of a 'release' in march, we are going to see a KICKSTARTER in march for a much much later release and a much much delayed delivery?
That is a little bit of bullcrap considering they have been teasing it as a product launch for 6+ months now. Putting like another 8 months delay on it is not a good thing.
Necros wrote: Is there some kind of drama that I missed? I sure could use something fun to read right about now, really boring day at work today...
but, this looks good. personally I'd pick SDE over the new CMON game just because it's been around a while and people like it. This may be just the tool I need to finish turning my nephews into gamernerds. The conversion process is nearly complete...
The Relic Knights and Robotech RPG Tactics KS's both seem to be layed squarely on the shoulders of SPM/ND, and their inability to produce the miniatures in a timely manner for manufacture.
I would really have liked to see this KS happen after their venture on Megaman reaches the delivery date, as SPM/ND is the only common thread between all 3 KS's. I'll be interested to read if they throw the 98% complete up on this KS, as they seem to be going to run it themselves.
Also interested to find out their definition of "interactive dungeon tiles". If it isn't 3d plastic tiles, I'm not sure how interactive it can be. I really hope that they have plastic tiles that can be linked to make bigger boards. I also like the fully assembled figures. I'll have to keep an eye on this one and weigh the KS against my angst for their ability to finish designing figures...
The miniatures at least seem to already be done which is where SPM have fallen down before so they just need tooling. I believe Forgotten King started life as an expansion like Roxor and Von Drakk but evolved into a full game thus it being teased for a good while and now requiring a KS to manufacture a split with CMoN makes this even more required.
But yeah I'd quite like to see Relic Knights before I back this but it's not a deal breaker. SPM have a rep for being late but usually deliver just add 6 months to whatever they estimate (at least!)
Those are some nice looking figures. Only way I can see this really working out is if it's 98% done or something. There's a good chance of that happening, judging by everything else being pushed back for so long. Maybe they've got the bulk of the game ready to go?
I think I'm going to have to be backing something at a buck and just add to it via pledge managers.
No way I can afford everything! We had nothing really noteworthy for the last few months, and then the deluge starts!
Gymnogyps wrote: They paid for at least 2 trips to China, and no backers have any product yet. Good job spending those KS funds! :sarcasm:
If that's addressing some supply chain issue, there's no real issue with them doing that. Sometimes that's a necessary part of doing business with your production spread across the planet.
Can you comment on how Solo play friendly the Arcade Mode ruleset might be if you were in on the playtests?
it would be very useful to know if this doesn't overlap with Arcadia Quests end
Yeah, lemme see what my NDA says and I'll share what I can.
I know, however, that there isn't any sort of campaign system built into Forgotten King that is reminscent of how Arcadia's appear to be. I wish I had more info on Arcadia, and I may after I visit CMON in a week or two, but right now I'm a little short on it.
I only knew it existed about a week before they started posting images, so I'll dig out what I can until I visit.
@Dave - I'm always interested at what products you back. I have to honestly say I've backed on Mantic KS (Deadzone) and will never do so again based on the quality I received (and subsequently sold, very quickly). And I don't get the "just tack on a 6 month delay and you'll be fine" attitude. Confuses me, I guess.
I don't have an issue with delays or long fullfillment.
I do have an issue when Sodapop has been promoting TFK for a solid 6 months as a general release which was expected to be released in march, and now for 'whatever' reasons it has backslid into a KS for no reason which makes sense to me...
I don't see what they need KS funds for when it is basically complete. Seems like a step backwards to go from commercial retail releases to KS simply because you can. Bothers me as a customer and makes me more intolerant that I have to wait potentially 6 months+delay for a product I was expecting to be out Q1 2014.
I know Arcadia Quests co-op is not solo friendly as there's a significant degree of inter-player competition which means running the whole party yourself would be fairly pointless
I'm hoping the SDE co-op (arcade mode) is more geared towards kill the monster/clear the room which would make running a party yourself OK)
I dropped Arcadia Quest after hearing this news. I still have not invested in SDE yet, but this may be the shove off the cliff I need to get invested in the game. I really want to try painting everything in vibrant colors, which is such a change from the Zombie and WW2 stuff I've painted as of late.
After reading through the AQ thread a bit, I started to like the model designs less and less the more I noticed that the style wasn't really chibi, and more bobblehead. SDE's miniatures have a certain charm about them that the AQ ones lack (the latter having too many grimacing expressions).
Also, DwarvenForge will be Kickstarting their caverns tiles soon (probably early March from rumors), so there's that.
nkelsch wrote: I don't have an issue with delays or long fullfillment.
I do have an issue when Sodapop has been promoting TFK for a solid 6 months as a general release which was expected to be released in march, and now for 'whatever' reasons it has backslid into a KS for no reason which makes sense to me...
I don't see what they need KS funds for when it is basically complete. Seems like a step backwards to go from commercial retail releases to KS simply because you can. Bothers me as a customer and makes me more intolerant that I have to wait potentially 6 months+delay for a product I was expecting to be out Q1 2014.
I'm guessing that with the all but divorce from CMON that they don't have the cash on hand to produce it by themselves. Typically, that is the part that a publisher handles (paying for stuff) in return for their share of the profits. I'm curious to see if ND will split from Palladium as well and if Palladium will get someone else to do future eras of that product line.
Given that the poll on the SPM forum about "Would you be interested in a co-op mode for SDE" was only put up in January, it does seem as though the decision to turn FK into a full 'version 2' release of SDE was quite recent.
So long as they run the KS like Kaos Ball or Arcadia where there are only 2 or 3 pledge levels with very little in the way of add-ons or KS exclusives there is no reason why this upgrade to a standalone game should affect the 'original' FK release target by more than a few months.
To be honest, as much as I (and my kids) have been looking forward to a new expansion, I would personally prefer to get new content AND new mechanics in a few months time in the knowledge that the game is then a viable alternative to Myth or Zombicide.. than get new content in a month or so but have to wait a year before SPM scrapes together the funds and content to justify a stand alone release of 2.0. By then a lot of their players would likely have moved on to Myth..
I'm totes in. It'll be interesting to see what they add in terms of stretch goals and whatnot though. Since the miniatures for Forgotten King seem to have been done for quite a while. (I imagine it will be a wave 1/wave 2 sort of deal).
Also really excited to see the co-op/solo play mode. I might be able to use all these SDE minis I've painted!
Siygess wrote: By then a lot of their players would likely have moved on to Myth..
They missed an assumed retail launch and are late to their own party. I suspect Myth is going to suck up a lot of interest from gamers which could have been combated with a retail SDE release.
If AQ straight up beats them to market (which it does appear like they could) that could be a deathblow as SDE would be late to the co-op dungeon market with potentially two quality products already there.
Yeah that's exactly it. Since SDE launched, we've seen Zombicide and now Myth prove that there is a very healthy demand for co-op games.. and that said games can work well without the need for the consul role. Maybe they thought that's what people wanted back when they were designing SDE or maybe they just didn't see how it would work.
But it does work, so their choice is to change now and have a shot at competing with these other games.. or miss the boat entirely. Evolve or die!
But it seems like they should have released their 'already going to retail' expansion as normal to keep people active in the market place with their brand, and then launched the KS to fund the 'new rule-set' and the 2015 model release.
A KS for models we have been seeing since last summer with "Due out Q1 2014" now being KSed for a later release? That is a fail.
Delaying TFK 6 months leaves them 18 months without a expansion release. Heroes and King Starfire don't count.
If the simple truth is 'they have no money' so they can't release their already going to retail product, that is telling.
Sure, but TFK dropping "on time" would do.. what.. at this point? It would give current SDE players something new to play with for a couple of months, but by then you would be looking at increased retail availability of Myth and knowing CMoN, rumors of an imminent Zombicide season 3.
So, sure, they could launch a brand new KS right now without using the TFK content but what would the development time on that be since they would need new models, new tiles and of course the new rules? A year? 18 months? That's too late. So what they are doing right now is probably the right move for the survival of SDE but a more aggressive release schedule in 2013 might have meant that SDE didn't need saving in the first place. Hey Ho. :/
I won't be backing this due to how they handled the relic knights KS. It's going to take SPM a while (and my RK stuff) to earn my trust again and for me to back another one of ther KS.
Siygess wrote: Sure, but TFK dropping "on time" would do.. what.. at this point? It would give current SDE players something new to play with for a couple of months, but by then you would be looking at increased retail availability of Myth and knowing CMoN, rumors of an imminent Zombicide season 3.
So, sure, they could launch a brand new KS right now without using the TFK content but what would the development time on that be since they would need new models, new tiles and of course the new rules? A year? 18 months? That's too late. So what they are doing right now is probably the right move for the survival of SDE but a more aggressive release schedule in 2013 might have meant that SDE didn't need saving in the first place. Hey Ho. :/
The bigger problem here is they are setting themselves 6 months back, when this was supposed to be released next month. They also need a campaign system. And if they are going to only have 1 pledge level, like AQ, then you need a lot of stretch goals, or I might as well wait for the game to hit retail if they want me to pay full retail value already. People on AQ pledge knowing that the game is going to garner a lot of add-ons from CMON to make that value worth it. We have no such expectation here, and SPM/ND's track record is subpar right now.
It does make you wonder if they lost money (contractually) for late delivery of the figures for both RK and RRT.
It could well be, and I'm sure they are in quite a pickle when it comes to paying for a big production run of the minis we have already seen. What SPM should have done, I guess, was release Von Drak with four tiles (Creepy Forest x4, Crypt x2, Von Drak Mansion x2) and release TPK back in November last year without tiles. But shoulda, woulda, coulda.
Also if CMoN aren't involved in the KS that pretty much guarantees that it won't be the juicy stretch goal / freebie spectacle that we all enjoy so much. So the discount vs retail is going to have to be pretty good.. or they are going to have to come to KS with a low funding target of $15k-$20k and a turn around time of three to four months, max. I like to think that the latter is quite possible since they (in theory) only need to produce the new rule book and perhaps design a few new counters to upgrade TFK to a standalone game.
If this KS is going to float, it is going to have to be pitched perfectly AND be delivered on time.
Damn, CMoN really seems to be going for the jugular with Sodapop. Not-Voldemort and Not-LabrynthDavidBowie were awesome, but a 'bunny-monster' guy? And it is cool.
If the SDEKS seems 'rushed to market' I can see why. AQ seems to be scratching an un-scratched itch which Sodapop left unscratched. If TFK had hit retail last week like they were planning for 6 months, Sodapop could have cash in-hand which is now being spent on AQ.
If the SDEKS seems 'rushed to market' I can see why. AQ seems to be scratching an un-scratched itch which Sodapop left unscratched. If TFK had hit retail last week like they were planning for 6 months, Sodapop could have cash in-hand which is now being spent on AQ.
Don't you think there might be a connection between CMON walking away with the money to produce a suspiciously similar game and SDE being unable to do a planned retail release and now needing to Kickstart the latest expansion?
And you make it sound like SDE has been lax - they've had two expansions and a good number of extras (Nyan Nyan and Captain R and the like) released in the last two years. I can't keep up with them as is. My itch is more than scratched.
I've never played Super Dungeon Explorer but I have always wanted to, but haven't been able to because I've never even seen a box for sale outside eBay.
One Question though:
Do I need the original SDE game to play this? Or is it a stand-alone game?
masterdoobie wrote: I've never played Super Dungeon Explorer but I have always wanted to, but haven't been able to because I've never even seen a box for sale outside eBay.
One Question though:
Do I need the original SDE game to play this? Or is it a stand-alone game?
i believe its listed earlier in the thread as being stand alone, but able to mesh with the older stuff
as for me, i'll consider pledging if i have my relic knight stuff, otherwise, yea, waiting til retail
masterdoobie wrote: I've never played Super Dungeon Explorer but I have always wanted to, but haven't been able to because I've never even seen a box for sale outside eBay.
One Question though:
Do I need the original SDE game to play this? Or is it a stand-alone game?
I'm sure a lot of people are interested in the expansion, but there's a lot of people out there waiting on previous KS materials.
I'm afraid exclusives will be the ultimate equalizer.
I'm hoping they'll at least be a new plastic version of Candy & Cola. But I expect they'll be at least a handful of exclusives. Maybe some gender-swaps of existing heroes, that'd be nice. Perhaps another chance for people to get their hands on the Relic Knight SDE minis.
I think that CMON kinda forced Soda Pop's hand with Arcadia Quest. If they hadn't announced it now, there's a good chance many of us wouldn't go in on The Forgotten King ks when it launches if we'd already dropped $100 on Arcadia Quest especially as they look to have more in common than just vanilla SDE.
The biggest holdup right now is, as we're all pretty clear on, the progress (or seeming lack thereof) of outstanding KS projects involving SPM. I don't consider Relic Knights a bust, just severely delayed. 10 months now. If anyone has any insights as to why that is exactly, I'd like to know. My understanding is that it all boils down to miscommunication and misunderstanding between CMON and SPM, though I've also read -- in this thread, even -- that models weren't delivered in a timely manner and, of course, some factory issues sprinkled here and there. Though the light at the end of that tunnel keeps drawing nearer.
With regards to the Forgotten King project, I'd like to see some nice incentives by way of extras (not just paid addons) since it's fair to say we're being asked to put more faith and money behind SPM in particular with them flying solo this time. That's not to say I want them to overpromise or woo financial ruin, but recognizing the situation surrounding this project and demonstrating good will toward a community that loves their product and continues to show support would be very welcome and help assuage misgivings. However, without CMON I'm not sure how likely that is. It could be that SPM have reaped a windfall from their goings on and are poised to blow this thing out of the water; or they could be stretched a bit thin in which case a discount and first dibs on the Forgotten King are the most likely perks for financing the endeavor.
The already-assembled models look great. I'm inclined to give this ks a shot just to see how SPM do; they've got more experience now, maybe learned some lessons that'll translate to better project management, but I'm not so sure it'll be a smooth ride.
Yeah if we were putting money on it, I'd say the pledge levels would be something like:
o) 100x TFK Early Birds ($15 off the retail price, earlier than retail delivery)
o) TFK ($10 off the retail price, earlier than retail delivery)
o) Everything (SDE, TFK, all main expansions)
I figure maybe one (free) KS exclusive miniature.
All the existing expansions and limited characters (excluding the RK ones) available as paid add-ons.
Stretch goals will fund 'new' hero and mini boss characters which will be delivered in a second wave, and available at retail at a later date. I suspect once they hit retail, they will be produced in larger numbers and won't be as 'limited' as Candy & Cola etc.
Shipping will be horrible for people outside the US.
The biggest holdup right now is, as we're all pretty clear on, the progress (or seeming lack thereof) of outstanding KS projects involving SPM. I don't consider Relic Knights a bust, just severely delayed. 10 months now. If anyone has any insights as to why that is exactly, I'd like to know. My understanding is that it all boils down to miscommunication and misunderstanding between CMON and SPM, though I've also read -- in this thread, even -- that models weren't delivered in a timely manner and, of course, some factory issues sprinkled here and there. Though the light at the end of that tunnel keeps drawing nearer.
10 months late is pretty busted, especially when a primary reason for the delay was failure to submit designs on time to the production company causing a 3-4 month delay.... There's a lot more to it than that, too, but that's not for an online forum.
nkelsch and cincy, so I take it you guys are really pro-CMON in this instance and anti-SPM? Your posts in both the Arcadia and this thread seem to indicate so.
I'm much more interested in a SPM Super Dungeon Explore than a CMON knockoff... but that doesn't mean I'm going to kickstart it given SPM's recent issues as others have already covered.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I wonder if Soda Pop would just do a no-frills, straight box KS campaign. Would people bite?
That would help keep costs, turnaround, and expectations in check.
Then again, how many people would just end up waiting for retail?
I'd imagine even with a bare bone campaign they'd still get it funded with no problems.
Well, here's the problem with paying retail for a straight up KS, with no freebies. Why pay that? There is no upside for me, the "investor". I'm giving them the cost of the game AND the profit from it. Someone else listed the possiblity of them knocking $10 off the retail price for the KS, with only a KS exclusive figure. Again, NO.
CMON, and several other big KS companies, usually price their pledges around the retail price, but you end up getting 300% more at that price. I fear that we won't see that from SPM/ND. If all you're going to end up with is the base game and a limited figure that you know SPM will sell later on, then I'll wait for retail discounts and sales.
SPM/ND have an incredibly poor track record right now, and split shipping from them seems a crapshoot. I'll watch this one, really see what the value is, but they have pretty large reservations to overcome...
DISCLAIMER: Unverified convention interaction follows: Plus, a poster here said that a member of ND got cranky when he asked when the Robotech mini's would see the light of day. If true, that severely lowers my esteem of the company.
RiTides wrote: nkelsch and cincy, so I take it you guys are really pro-CMON in this instance and anti-SPM? Your posts in both the Arcadia and this thread seem to indicate so.
I'm much more interested in a SPM Super Dungeon Explore than a CMON knockoff... but that doesn't mean I'm going to kickstart it given SPM's recent issues as others have already covered.
Thats a weird question for me, because I have a vested interest (in actual friendships) in both.
I TRUST CMoN as a business more than I TRUST SPM as a business, and for various reasons, many of which I think people here probably share.
I WANT to be able to KS Forgotten King. I really do. Its going to depend, a LOT, on the transparency of their process. I need to know that something is going to get delayed out of neglect or mismanagement, rather than legitimate production problems (flaws in a design that they discover from mass production, etc).
I like SDE. I like the minis for SDE. I own everything currently existing for SDE. I like the guys involved in SPM. I also think there's room for both SDE and Arcadia. I'm not Anti-SPM at all. But right now, it's a matter of faith and trust.
RiTides wrote: nkelsch and cincy, so I take it you guys are really pro-CMON in this instance and anti-SPM? Your posts in both the Arcadia and this thread seem to indicate so.
I'm much more interested in a SPM Super Dungeon Explore than a CMON knockoff... but that doesn't mean I'm going to kickstart it given SPM's recent issues as others have already covered.
Thats a weird question for me, because I have a vested interest (in actual friendships) in both.
I TRUST CMoN as a business more than I TRUST SPM as a business, and for various reasons, many of which I think people here probably share.
I WANT to be able to KS Forgotten King. I really do. Its going to depend, a LOT, on the transparency of their process. I need to know that something is going to get delayed out of neglect or mismanagement, rather than legitimate production problems (flaws in a design that they discover from mass production, etc).
I like SDE. I like the minis for SDE. I own everything currently existing for SDE. I like the guys involved in SPM. I also think there's room for both SDE and Arcadia. I'm not Anti-SPM at all. But right now, it's a matter of faith and trust.
I have to echo a lot of cincy's comments. I am farily active in the Sodapop forums and do a lot to promote SDE as a game. I have bought multiples of every set of every SDE release. You can't get much more 'support' from me.
The issue is they have been stringing customers along with teased retail release dates for TFK since summer of last year saying retail release Q1 2014 (which would be exactly 1 year between expansions) which is reasonable. After Von Drakk, they were almost the 'blizzard' of board games where you just 'love the content' but accept delays because you love the content.
Now it is a KS instead of retail and I have to wait another 6 months? And SDE, which is already a hard sell to gamers due to the DM component, SDE is due to get murdered by MYTH here. I honestly suspect I may never be able to get a group to play SDE ever again even with new releases if Myth is good because Boardgamers and non-rpgers *HATE* DM and I *ALWAYS* have to play consul. People tolerant of DMs and the SDE format lean to other games.
So from a pure customer being selfish, here is the position I am in:
*I want any and all Chibi models I can get.
*No one wants to play SDE as-is without effort due to the game format and it is 'not new'.
*Myth (which will hit my house within a month will suck the air out of the board gamers arena)
*I was EXPECTING due to months of information from Sodapop a retail release in Q1 2014.
*I have not gotten my Relic Knights SDE exclusives.
It sucks. They are in a bad position. While I understand the situation between CMoN and SP, I am not quick to declare either 'innocent' in the disagreement, but from what I have heard from talking to people 'in the know' on both sides, I can't blame either side for their actions, simply seems like Sodapop misjudged it. Sodapop wanted to produce their own games and buy out their contract. That's cool. CMoN has a hole in their product line, has willing game developers and ability to produce a new game quickly to fill the hole. They have no obligation not to and it is actually good business. I think Sodapop failed to think CMoN would be capable of spinning up a game and getting it to market. I think they got caught with their pants down. I know CMoN has their own issues and reputation, but frankly the same reason why I *WILL* buy the SDE TFK is the same reason I *WILL* buy AQ froM CMoN. I want the figures.
The problem is Myth is hitting the market hard and seems to be universally seen as good. AQ (from what I have seen and heard) seems to capture a very light multiplayer which will appeal to people not into the heavy nature of Myth. SDE is 'fun' but has rules issues as is and I don't have much faith that the new system will be 'rock my socks off' great and seems that I will have it 'in-hand' after both established MYTH playing and AQ probably beating them to KS backers boxes (and pocketbooks). You now have what should have been a Q1 captive release where they could have all of our money tomorrow is going to be taken by lots of people.
I will probably be backing AQ and TFK both fully. I want the models and have a decent KS budget. The truth is, while I may get TFK, the chances that SDE will become a dominate game in my circles may be slim... which is the true failure right now. You can't leave yourself exposed and not expect others to make competing products. (or be late to the game which has been clear due to the fan rules and discussions on the SDE messageboards)
They had an opportunity to relase TFK as a retail expansion, then KS the 2014 'release' with the new edition rules which can be released electronically faster and then physically later. They could have had people's money for figures and playing the new rules before AQ's KS finished and before MYTH boxes get unpacked and tested. If TFK was in my hands in the next 30 days I can say it would have gotten priority over other games in my gaming circle. The only reason this can't happen is Sodapop is basically broke.
No insider knowledge here, but I wager SPM were surprised to see CMON's 'Not'-SDE game hit kickstarter so soon (if they saw it coming at all)...and threw this together as a kickstarter (instead of general release as they led us all to believe) to take the wind out of the sails of CMON's kickstarter. Look to see this kickstarter overlap AQ by at least a week is my guesstimate. Also, expect to see a dozen (at least) exclusive chibi characters/mini-bosses to come up as stretch goals and add-ons, since the game is already 98% complete. I will be backing this project despite still not having my SDE exclusives from Relic Knights. I like their art style and their miniature quality, and am really interested in seeing some better rules (co-op/solo play, maybe they will offer a campaign system as well?)
Also, only half-serious...I want to think that maybe they wouldn't be so broke if they'd stop hiring half-naked pin-up models to cos-play in their booth at conventions...just sayin.
Fango wrote: Also, expect to see a dozen (at least) exclusive chibi characters/mini-bosses to come up as stretch goals and add-ons, since the game is already 98% complete..
Woudn't be so sure about this.
This exact stuff is the kind of project expansion that caused a lot of problems with the Relic Knights KS.
Ross was pretty clear in the FB post that they wouldn't be doing that again to ensure that scope creep didn't affect them too much.
Fango wrote: Also, expect to see a dozen (at least) exclusive chibi characters/mini-bosses to come up as stretch goals and add-ons, since the game is already 98% complete.
While I hope to back this (budget allowing) if they end up with a dozen or more characters shown as just concept art (no matter how cool) it might actually make me drop out
The delays at the Soda Pop end of things for both Relic Knights and Robotech have looked to be down to getting sculpts done in a timely manner (and more and more quality freelance sculptors are booked up years in advance) and I wouldn't like to have another year long delay like Relic Knights looks to be set for
I'm hoping they keep it simple, and keep it cheap (compared to retail) instead with a relatively rapid turn around
I think he was referring to the fact that he expanded each of several factions with multiple models...these all had to be sculpted, separated for mold making (or molds tooled for digital sculpts) and each figure had a sku# and individual packaging designs for eventual retail.
Two of the most successful board game kickstarters ever were Zombicide and Zombicide: Season 2, their model will be closely considered I'm sure. SDE: TFK is 98% done, all of the models included in the box have already been produced and shown in public. So making a dozen or so new single sculpts as exclusives/add-ons is not outside the realm of possibility here, and is very likely. Most backers like to see these, and the completionists out there will pay whatever it takes to 'get them all.'
Besides 'extras' of whatever is included in the new box, I'm not sure what else they can offer to potential backers as incentive to sustain a steady growth in a month-long kickstarter campaign. I would be very surprised if my prediction were proven false.
Yeah, regardless of what kind of KS we WANT to see, I just don't think SPM can afford the extra time a bunch of new or exclusive minis would add to the delivery time. They need something to compete with Myth (and perhaps Arcadia) asap and an expansion for a game that doesn't compete with Myth in it's current form just isnt good for the future of SDE at this point.
Without the distribution contacts and logistical and financial assistance that CMoN might have provided, shipping in multiple waves is probably out of the question too. So yeah I think this is going to be free of frills.
Edit: Hah! I think you are right Dave, there's the KS 'exclusive' right there
I hope they include the Relic Knight SDE characters. They're the things I really regret missing out on having pulled out of that Kickstarter, so offering them here would certainly get me interested.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I hope they include the Relic Knight SDE characters. They're the things I really regret missing out on having pulled out of that Kickstarter, so offering them here would certainly get me interested.
As someone buried root deep in the Relic Knights KS, I'd be fine with this idea.
I'd really like to see upgrades to the game materials for the box. For example, a "casino quality" cards upgrade would be very welcome by me. That's one of the things I liked least about SDE: the hero cards were (are?) very flimsy.
I think the board quality could use some improvement...after a couple of uses, the edges got messed up on my original set. They need to take notes from FFG.
Arcadia Quest Looks cool, I'm currently pledging for it. But I'm anxious to see what SDE does with a Kickstarter. Still waiting on my Relic Knights as well though, so, 'cautiously anxious'.
Well, looking at AQ, TFK needs to have more than just 12 stretch goals. AQ, 2 days in, has already put up 3 freebies and 1 buy in. So if TFK is going to run for a month, or 4 weeks, they'll need a lot of stretch goals, and don't troll your backers like Mantic does with "free short stories!" What? They pretty much need to have a whole other expansion thought out, as a lot of the more successful KS's have.
Rivet Wars is probably a great example, filling out their next years worth of regular releases through the KS. If TFK only has the TFK boxed game and nothing else substantial, I think it will probably fund, but only from the diehard SPM lovers.
Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.
Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.
Hmm, every ks they've been involved in has massive delays, their warehouse is staffed by two guys who are backlogged and take ages to reply to retail problems ( or just ignore altogether) and now another kickstarter?
I hope they have something addressing al of this ready to go.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.
Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.
I think looking for a project run as cleanly as Rivet Wars is....optimistic
H.B.M.C. wrote: Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.
Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.
I agree with you, it was a really well done KS, and Ted really seems to care both about his game and the community. I'm really glad I went in on that one.
I wouldn't mind the RK SDE figures either, as I passed on that KS, though I'd like to have those figures. I didn't get the Zombicide figures either, though those would have been nice to have also...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.
Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.
It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK. It'd also be interesting to know if they can actually do it, or if CMON has some form of claim to them due to their inclusion in the RK KS.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.
Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.
It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK. It'd also be interesting to know if they can actually do it, or if CMON has some form of claim to them due to their inclusion in the RK KS.
I'd imagine if Ninja Pop bought out their contract with CMoN it would include rights to all of the moulds and stuff, right?
Azazelx wrote: It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.
Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDEKS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?
If I could get the RK figures for Super Dungeon, I'd chip in.
Screw rarity and all that rubbish. I think the only people who really have a problem with figures losing value because they aren't as exclusive any more are the ones who resell stuff.
The more people that get to play with their toys, the better (in my opinion).
I doubt they'd offer them the same as what was in the RK campaign anyway. I'd be okay with a pose variation/ card variation to keep all the gripers away (and maybe get them to pledge for the same figures twice).
Azazelx wrote: It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.
Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDEKS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?
Good point. In fact, I'm going to pull my pledge on this one, right now!
Azazelx wrote: It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.
Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDEKS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?
Good point. In fact, I'm going to pull my pledge on this one, right now!
H.B.M.C. one upped you on RK - he pulled his pledge AFTER they collected it!
Screw rarity and all that rubbish. I think the only people who really have a problem with figures losing value because they aren't as exclusive any more are the ones who resell stuff.
The more people that get to play with their toys, the better (in my opinion).
I'm in agreement with you here. I'm not a fan of KS exclusives and all that rot.
I'd really like to back this, having all of the current SDE stuff available at retail, but SPM's track record makes me very leery of doing so. I'll probably pass until it's at retail unless there's some sort of fantastical deal offered.
I guess you could say that SPM might have to start in damage control mode (just to complete all the KS Dakkamemes).
Azazelx wrote: It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.
Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDEKS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?
Turnabout is fair play, as they say! Bring on the Relic Knight stretch goals for the SDEKS campaign!
New knights based on SDE characters, free Sophia Drake, and a Relic Knights themed play mat.
Krinsath wrote: He's magical like that.
I'd really like to back this, having all of the current SDE stuff available at retail, but SPM's track record makes me very leery of doing so. I'll probably pass until it's at retail unless there's some sort of fantastical deal offered.
I guess you could say that SPM might have to start in damage control mode (just to complete all the KS Dakkamemes).
Well, it does seems that 100% of the project is already 80% complete!
1. Production already has a scheduling slot locked up.
2. SPM has a definitive "end" to their stretch goals; this should help avoid over reaching and causing delays due to that.
3. Masters of models are done, but no tooling is.
4. Going to be expansion of the SDE "fluff" world.
#1 and #2 are incredibly reassuring to me.
#3 is to be expected as they're funding this solo, and isn't super concerning, especially since they already have a production time slot locked up.
All in all, the new info is a good thing, and I wanted to make sure I shared it.
I tried to pry the start day out, but was playfully rebuked.
1. Production already has a scheduling slot locked up.
2. SPM has a definitive "end" to their stretch goals; this should help avoid over reaching and causing delays due to that.
3. Masters of models are done, but no tooling is.
4. Going to be expansion of the SDE "fluff" world.
#1 and #2 are incredibly reassuring to me.
#3 is to be expected as they're funding this solo, and isn't super concerning, especially since they already have a production time slot locked up.
All in all, the new info is a good thing, and I wanted to make sure I shared it.
I tried to pry the start day out, but was playfully rebuked.
#1 was true for Robotech and they're now 6-8 months behind schedule (and counting). As for #3, the KS was ready enough to begin manufacturing within 40 days of the end of it supposedly and yet here we are over 300 days after that claim was made and not a single mold has been made yet. Don't believe ANYTHING soda pop has to say until they post pics of the progress.
#1 was true for Robotech and they're now 6-8 months behind schedule (and counting). As for #3, the KS was ready enough to begin manufacturing within 40 days of the end of it supposedly and yet here we are over 300 days after that claim was made and not a single mold has been made yet. Don't believe ANYTHING soda pop has to say until they post pics of the progress.
I've seen the masters of every model that I know is going to be in Forgotten King (based on playtesting), so that's one I'm solid on. You're right that #1 could be an issue, but if it's scheduled and the masters are done, then it SHOULD be less of an issue.
I'm still cautiously optimistic, but the information I got definitely made me feel significantly better.
Any more news on RK shipping out as it's been a while sine last update, or is this going to be, we ran out of money and need another KS to pay for the first?
100 at least seems to be about the going rate for a mini heavy game.
Considering I just found I've got another nice little treasure trove of old video games I can sell, I may as well jump in on this one.
I hope we end up seeing more than 5 heroes and a nice pile of extra minions.
Someone had a cool idea of turning those new minibosses into heroes as well. It's just one card after all- make it a KS exclusive or something and turn the herald and succubus into good guys!
At least I know with SDE that my heroes will handle a bit differently from each other compared to Arcadia.
Another cool suggestion I saw mentioned that I hope SodaPop considers is making add on tiles that fit the look of Roxxor and Von Drakk (especially this one). Variety is the spice of life, is it not?
100 at least seems to be about the going rate for a mini heavy game.
Considering I just found I've got another nice little treasure trove of old video games I can sell, I may as well jump in on this one.
I hope we end up seeing more than 5 heroes and a nice pile of extra minions.
Someone had a cool idea of turning those new minibosses into heroes as well. It's just one card after all- make it a KS exclusive or something and turn the herald and succubus into good guys!
At least I know with SDE that my heroes will handle a bit differently from each other compared to Arcadia.
Another cool suggestion I saw mentioned that I hope SodaPop considers is making add on tiles that fit the look of Roxxor and Von Drakk (especially this one). Variety is the spice of life, is it not?
Except they've already charted all of their stretch goals, and have limited the scope of their KS. Plus, all the new SDE pieces are going to be pre-assembled. So it will be very interesting to see exactly what they are going to offer to entice people to spend FLGS money on a box game on a KS, as they've pre-loaded us to expect a finite amount of stretch goals adding value to their product. Interesting indeed.
Well if they can put together some sort of decent shipping option just being able to get hold of this is a timely fashion would be attractive to me here in the UK (it seems to have taken an age for the sets to turn up previously)
but whether they will be able to do so?
but without significant extras FK as new (smaller in terms of figure numbers) starter would probably struggle to attract huge numbers at $100 when you could be fairly confident of picking it up for $80 or less at an online discounter
Yeah, after ready what Cincy put, it is going to be an interesting campaign.
There's also the elephant in the room- CMON's Arcadia (if they both happen to overlap).
Somehow I don't think CMON is going to sit idly by and let people pull their funds and switch to a different campaign.
I wouldn't be surprised if they pull out something big and fancy for that game to entice people to stay. Hell, with all the other mini games coming up, I wouldn't be surprised if CMON does that anyway.
I guess one option might be to offer the existing stuff at a decent discount as add ons
ks and completionist tend to go together
I'm guessing they may have bought out the existing stock from CMON (otherwise they risk CMON dumping it cheap risking people thinking of it as a dead game just when they can least afford this happening).... and they won't really want to sell boxes with a now defunct publishing tie up at retail
There's also the elephant in the room- CMON's Arcadia (if they both happen to overlap).
Somehow I don't think CMON is going to sit idly by and let people pull their funds and switch to a different campaign.
I wouldn't be surprised if they pull out something big and fancy for that game to entice people to stay. Hell, with all the other mini games coming up, I wouldn't be surprised if CMON does that anyway.
Well, SDE has an uphill battle, as AQ has some awesome 3D counters in place of the punch out card counters. Plus, with 2 buy for $10 heroes, it brings the hero total up to 20 I believe.
And while SPM can offer the old stuff from SDE, as Orlando pointed out, it won't be to much of any gain...with a fixed number of stretch goals, raising more money doesn't then add anything to the campaign. That will probably turn away some backers. I hope their stretch goals are smoking good, and plentiful. I don't hold out much hope for either.
Well, SDE has an uphill battle, as AQ has some awesome 3D counters in place of the punch out card counters. Plus, with 2 buy for $10 heroes, it brings the hero total up to 20 I believe.
Yeah, downgrade of Rattlebones and bone tokens say Hi :( People wanted 3D bone tokens like the shells from roxor like mad.
AQs tokens are spot on. We play a dungeon party game which calls for coins, skulls, life tokens and these fit the bill and will make appearances in other games... The expectation for 'tokens' has been upgraded. I hope to see a 3D potion token in some form.
So they do.. and..heh. Not on the SPM store I see. Guess that means I shall have to decide between ordering a single figure from the US and sucking up the shipping charge that's going to be more than the figure.. or hold out to see if Wayland gets a few of them in.
Salacious Greed wrote: Miniature Market has the SDE Kaelly the Nether Strider. So no stretch goal on that...
Yep - ordered mine the other day. Though I strongly expect we'll see her and Nyan Nyan and the other "singles" as optional add-ons/pledge boosters in the campaign.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.
Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.
I think looking for a project run as cleanly as Rivet Wars is....optimistic
I wish I hadn't skipped Rivet Wars now looking back. But as for this one we'll see. I'm already heavily tempted by Arcadia Quest and if it's not a decent deal I'm waiting for retail.
Salacious Greed wrote: Miniature Market has the SDE Kaelly the Nether Strider. So no stretch goal on that...
Yep - ordered mine the other day. Though I strongly expect we'll see her and Nyan Nyan and the other "singles" as optional add-ons/pledge boosters in the campaign.
That might be epic fail to have already available heroes as stretch goals. I have no problem with them being optional add-ons. But boo on them if they're stretch goals. That does nothing for people who already have those, so no incentive...
That might be epic fail to have already available heroes as stretch goals. I have no problem with them being optional add-ons. But boo on them if they're stretch goals. That does nothing for people who already have those, so no incentive...
In general they can't have non-ks funded stuff sold as part of the KS. (the truth is they can as long as the snitch police doesn't complain to KS)
There is no reason to make any of the current stuff part of the KS. Why forfeit profit on product they have already made and can charge retail and get real money for right now. If the item is already produced and they already spent the capital to do it, then reap the rewards of retail release.
This is why this is so confusing. With Captian @ and Resin king Starfire, if this was a 'planned' event it seems like they would have held some of that stuff. King Starfire was seen overall as a 'lazy' release and while it is a cool model, a letdown from the rules aspect. If they just retread already retail stuff for insignificant discounts that is not going to be a 'good thing' .
Salacious Greed wrote: Miniature Market has the SDE Kaelly the Nether Strider. So no stretch goal on that...
Yep - ordered mine the other day. Though I strongly expect we'll see her and Nyan Nyan and the other "singles" as optional add-ons/pledge boosters in the campaign.
That might be epic fail to have already available heroes as stretch goals. I have no problem with them being optional add-ons. But boo on them if they're stretch goals. That does nothing for people who already have those, so no incentive...
Which is why I said optional add-on. They wouldn't have stuff available at retail as a stretch goal I wouldn't think.
nkelsch wrote:
This is why this is so confusing. With Captian @ and Resin king Starfire, if this was a 'planned' event it seems like they would have held some of that stuff. King Starfire was seen overall as a 'lazy' release and while it is a cool model, a letdown from the rules aspect. If they just retread already retail stuff for insignificant discounts that is not going to be a 'good thing' .
Maybe they were caught off guard by the CMON split too? Or (more likely imo) Capt. R and the New Starfire and Kaelly were minis produced using CMON money, so they're legally required to release them via whatever contract they had with CMON.
I'm sure they'll have plenty of stretch goals ready.
Regarding Early Birds:
We understand the love/hate people have for Early Birds. (I've supported many KS myself.) From a company perspective they are great for creating that initial surge that starts a campaign off strong. We will make sure to let you know a day in advance of when the Kickstarter will be launching both here and on our facebook, but can't guarantee everyone who wants an early bird will get it. However, the base level pledge we have put together represents an exceptional deal and nobody should feel worse for not having gotten the Early Bird.
Regarding Forgotten King:
Teleporting, 1AP Stranglethorn—that's just when he's not mad at you for having all that beautiful treasure and loot while his kingdom lies in ruins....
Regarding Distribution:
We will have more details on that this month.
All of which makes it sound a little bit farther off this month.
Would have been fun to see this go toe to toe with Arcadia Quest. Both companies would definitely have to bring their A game to sway people's pledges (or just get both like a lot of us plan on).
Who knows, maybe they'll still do it.
Looks like Recon will definitely be a go next weekend. Why not have a big 4 way KS battle between CMON, Sodapop, Mantic, and MERCS?
Hmm, no exclusives means no incentive to pledge during the KS. Just wait for this to hit retail at a discount if the KS isn't lower than that discount.
Salacious Greed wrote: Hmm, no exclusives means no incentive to pledge during the KS. Just wait for this to hit retail at a discount if the KS isn't lower than that discount.
Well, I guess that's the trick, isn't it? Hopefully not too many people feel that way or there won't be a game to hit retail. Unlike Mantic where you pretty much know that when they launch a game on Kickstarter, they were probably going to release it anyway, I'm not getting the same vibe with TFK. I say that because a smallish company like SPM (who don't have the best reputation when it comes to their involvement in kickstarters) almost certainly don't need the grief of dealing with one all on their own. Nobody likes getting kicked in the nuts but when you run your own KS you are essentially inviting the public to do exactly that as a form of criticism. Sod that!
So I think if SPM had the money to turn TFK into a full blown SDE 2.0, churn out some copies from the factory and get them into the hands of the retailers (preferably before Arcadia does the same).. without going via KS.. then they would absolutely do it. If this KS tanks, we might still see TFK released as an expansion per the original plan with a PDF copy of the 2.0 rulebook a few months down the line.. but apart from a few hero or mini boss releases I wouldn't be surprised if SDE faded away.
I have an idea for a KS exclusive for these guys, a Chinese New Year Scapegoat, he foils all their plans, appears catching everyone of guard every single time and gives negative status effects to all heroes!
Alpharius wrote: If there aren't going to be a lot of stretch goals, and if nothing is exclusive...
...is this the most Obvious Pre-Order Kickstarter ever?
Depends?
Have Sodapop ranked in tons of cash from their previous Kickstarters? Not likely.
How many is 'only a few'? 3? 30? Mantic & CMON Kickstarters end up having a hundred or so Stretch goals, so 30 could be a few compared to that.
Exclusive Items = Not Preorder? I don't see how it makes any difference.
Using our own project as an example: I had fewer stretch goals planned then anything that CMON or Mantic have had planned, the only exclusives was a set of fancy D6, and we would have released the game either way. So it 'could' have been seen as a preorder, but without Kickstarter we'd probably only be releasing the 5th model for it this month rather then the 26th.
Slygess, I agree that this probably needs the backing to get made. But why give them near retail money months in advance, with nothing "special" in return. KS is, in the gaming/miniature community, pretty much about the special add-ons and stretch goals. So this is less and less something I need to pay attention to. Without CMON, I see SDE not having the staying power.
Alph, yes, this has pretty much become a "please make this happen, but no special rewards or considerations for all of your money!" Unless they pull something epic out, this will probably become a pass.....
Just because it isn't exclusive doesn't necessarily mean it won't be a good deal. If they're offering new figure bundles, extra loot or dice, 3d tokens to replace the cardboard, that is going to get nicely packaged later on down the line to sell at retail, I'm totally cool with that. No worse than what FFP did with Brimstone. Nothing there was really "exclusive," with the exception of one figure's sculpt.
I'm interested, but like you said, why pay at or near retail without something to sweeten the pot? Preorder or not, call it what you will, but if you want my money upfront for who knows how many months, there's got to be something there to make me want to commit, besides just my generosity and desire to see the underdog succeed.
My other big worry is just how long it'll take for fulfillment.
To paraphrase an old television advert (you have to imagine it in a badly dubbed European accent:
"Ah, CMoN, with these exclusives, you are really spoiling us!"
Your logic makes a ton of sense when you apply it to pre-orders and indeed I do exactly the same thing when it comes to buying games for my PC.. I'll only ever pre-order something if it comes with some decent incentives, otherwise I'll wait until I can get it for ~£5 on Steam. But with the way that CMoN behave (and the founders of other 'big' Kickstarter projects) it becomes easy to forget what the point of KS is - it is to help make something a reality. If you want to help make that happen, you pledge some money and the very existence of the thing that you backed is supposed to be it's own reward. But in the aftermath of Zombicide and pretty much every Mantic KS, a bare bones kickstarter is a very hard sell and that's a crappy deal when you consider that the people who run those kinds of projects are often the ones most in need of your initial investment.
I think that's one of the other reasons why we are going to see a no-frills project from SPM. They have to keep it simple so they can have any hope of delivering on time - and by on time, I mean within six months of the KS ending. Their current predicament might well be a mess of their own making but SPM really are in a jam right now. Their requirements (Need an improved base product, low overheads, minimal turn-around time) are pretty much in direct contrast to that of the average KS backer (Good value for money, lots of extras, no need to be loyal to a brand). I just hope that they have a low funding target
Alpharius wrote: If there aren't going to be a lot of stretch goals, and if nothing is exclusive...
...is this the most Obvious Pre-Order Kickstarter ever?
Reading between the lines Soda Pop have (probably) spent pretty much all the cash they had buying out their contact with CMON for SDE (& Relic Knights?),
so while most of the development work for Forgotten King is done I'm fairly confident they can't afford to pay for moulds/production/shipping without extra investment
and since they don't want to be beholden to an outside agency like CMON KS is really the only option other than waiting a year or two for profits from their current line to hit the point where they can afford to finish Forgotten King (which is too late given todays gamer expects several releases a year or they consider a game 'dead)
Siygess wrote: Your logic makes a ton of sense when you apply it to pre-orders and indeed I do exactly the same thing when it comes to buying games for my PC.. I'll only ever pre-order something if it comes with some decent incentives, otherwise I'll wait until I can get it for ~£5 on Steam. But with the way that CMoN behave (and the founders of other 'big' Kickstarter projects) it becomes easy to forget what the point of KS is - it is to help make something a reality. If you want to help make that happen, you pledge some money and the very existence of the thing that you backed is supposed to be it's own reward. But in the aftermath of Zombicide and pretty much every Mantic KS, a bare bones kickstarter is a very hard sell and that's a crappy deal when you consider that the people who run those kinds of projects are often the ones most in need of your initial investment.
I totally agree with you. However I have a rather cynical view of the world when it comes to KS and Retail game companies. Whether it be Mantic, Reaper or CMON, I can feel reasonably good about the amount of money they are asking for their stuff, because I know I am getting a deal with their KS's. (In this discussion, I have nothing against SPM, saying they will offer their game for near retail price is only for purposes of this argument.) So, let us pretend they offer TFK for $100 [retail price], $90 for Early Birds. Now, my problem with this is that they are a company, that when selling to retailers, make their profit margin by selling at 50% retail cost. So for them to collect the full retail value on a KS is really me paying them 50% profit on top of their retail profit. Some people are going to scream "But we're MAKING the game!" Yes, YOU are paying to have the game made, and then the entire 50% that they sell it retailers is profit, instead of them paying off past cost incursions. So, when a retail company like this comes to a KS and doesn't offer ANYTHING to recognize their supporters, I find it very hard to rally any support their project.
There was another KS, Kingdom Builder, a pre-existing complete game, with two expansions, and an obviously established fanbase. That game only offered one KS exclusive addition to the game, but did upgrade like one or two parts of the game. Other than that, there were no stretch goals or anything else, and that game made a crapton of money as basically a pre-order. So, I guess it really depends on the fanbase, but selling a game where you don't recognize that all the KS backers are pretty much financing your profit margin doesn't appeal to me. So I don't really go in for established companies that don't offer any incentives or recognition of their backers doing the financial heavy lifting, as KS is really the "easy way out" for these companies, instead of securing loans to make their product. This really means that they make more money off of their product, both short term and long term.
The real group hurt in this example is all of the game carrying stores out there, both FLGS's and chains. The game maker has no production costs to cover anymore, so they make much (double or more) greater profits selling to any of these stores who will carry their products now.
This wasn't an indictment against anyone who wants to support a company doing this, or who really believes that without them, this product just wouldn't get made. Just pointing out my view of these KS economics, and how it is so 'win-win' for these companies, and that I don't think it is effectively "fair" for them to ask the public to foot the complete bill to make this, but not offer any incentives or swag to that public.
Alpharius wrote: If there aren't going to be a lot of stretch goals, and if nothing is exclusive...
...is this the most Obvious Pre-Order Kickstarter ever?
Reading between the lines Soda Pop have (probably) spent pretty much all the cash they had buying out their contact with CMON for SDE (& Relic Knights?),
so while most of the development work for Forgotten King is done I'm fairly confident they can't afford to pay for moulds/production/shipping without extra investment
and since they don't want to be beholden to an outside agency like CMON KS is really the only option other than waiting a year or two for profits from their current line to hit the point where they can afford to finish Forgotten King (which is too late given todays gamer expects several releases a year or they consider a game 'dead)
Fair enough!
Makes sense too...
I'll certainly be checking this one out at launch.
Reading between the lines Soda Pop have (probably) spent pretty much all the cash they had buying out their contact with CMON for SDE (& Relic Knights?),
so while most of the development work for Forgotten King is done I'm fairly confident they can't afford to pay for moulds/production/shipping without extra investment
and since they don't want to be beholden to an outside agency like CMON KS is really the only option other than waiting a year or two for profits from their current line to hit the point where they can afford to finish Forgotten King (which is too late given todays gamer expects several releases a year or they consider a game 'dead)
Will they put as a KS risk: "Hey, if this KS doesn't do well and doesn't fund, we may go out of business and never release a SDE product ever again as we miss-managed our company and dried up our cash flow."
Anyone who says Sodapop needs KS as a 'marketing tool' is full of it. If they put TFK on shelves tomorrow, they would sell out exactly like they have every other SDE release they put up in the past year.
I will be buying it because I want the models and the game... but if sodapop runs itself into a ditch and can't recover, so be it.
Regardless of whether exclusives are on offer, the main things holding me back from pledging on this would be:
1) SPM/ND doesn't have a very good track record for fulfilment right now. In fact, it's fething awful.
2) At least a year's wait.
3) International postage costs - not an entitled whine, you understand, but if everything will be available later at retail there's no reason to gamble on their inevitable delays bumping the postage into another couple of price rises, especially if they don't have a China-shipping option.
4) More immediate things to do with my money. Hell, including the already-released SDE expansions since I only have the base box.
5) AU dollar is pretty bad again right now, though stable again. In a year's time it may well have increased in value again, and a discount retail purchase may well have it cheaper than KSing it.
Looks like they've submitted it but are waiting approval if all is OK they should have time to start by the weekend - if - given they've run foul of KS before I'd imagaine they have been careful with this submission.
Soda Pop Miniatures Everything is pending approval by Kickstarter in terms of timing guys, we will hit the launch button as soon as we can.
You'd think people would learn by now that you can submit it way earlier than your actual projected date, letting you start when YOU want if you got it submitted early enough.
I kind of hope it starts this week, get some healthy competition going.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: You'd think people would learn by now that you can submit it way earlier than your actual projected date, letting you start when YOU want if you got it submitted early enough.
I kind of hope it starts this week, get some healthy competition going.
There isn't enough already?
I mean, it wont personally affect me. If I back this (and that's.....iffy) I'm going to be like, a last day backer, and there are going to be a lot of conditionals.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides, "waiting for approval" is synonmous with "not entirely prepared," so that's a little disconcerting.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: You'd think people would learn by now that you can submit it way earlier than your actual projected date, letting you start when YOU want if you got it submitted early enough.
I kind of hope it starts this week, get some healthy competition going.
I think they NEED it to launch this week. I think it is dangerous for AQ to end without TFK not sticking a finger in that pie. Not at all sure if there will be a drastic impact, but without knowing what the TFK value or pledge even is, there is no reason for people to not stick with their already AQ pledges.
I don't think this is a zero-sum either, I suspect a lot of people who are in the market for these types of minis are already going to pledge both or already chose to pledge one due to brand loyalty, design or company politics. People not pledging AQ for TFK are probably already decided and I think fence-sitters are relatively low.
I could be wrong tho. Sodapop needs a Friday launch.
... Is it going to get hard to find the CMoN produced SDE stuff?
I want a second Von Drakk set but I've been putting off buying it.
Soda Pop Miniatures No, as we run low stocks of previous editions of product, we will be reprinting them as essential parts of our games world. Just with updated packaging and any updated print changes between editions. Super Dungeon Product will get easier to find, not harder.
With the pending Forgotten King Kickstarter, here is a sneak peak at the upcoming boards - beware the Lordship Ruins and the minions found within! - The Forgotten King main game includes 6 double sided game tiles to expand your dungeons.
One of the stretch goals will be for printed updated cards where needed to bring old game in line with the new rules - they will be available to non backers to buy at a later date.
DaveC wrote: One of the stretch goals will be for printed updated cards where needed to bring old game in line with the new rules - they will be available to non backers to buy at a later date.
While I love this, I can't help but think this shouldn't be a stretch goal....
DaveC wrote: One of the stretch goals will be for printed updated cards where needed to bring old game in line with the new rules - they will be available to non backers to buy at a later date.
While I love this, I can't help but think this shouldn't be a stretch goal....
People wanted more tiles for variety, not to be forced to throw their current tiles out. So if we don't hit the stretch goal all the current tiles are basically trash?
Seems like an odd design decision to not make the rules work with the old tiles 'as-is' so the stretch goal could be a fresh 3rd set of tiles for even more variety.
These new rules better be 'blow your socks off' good to be worth basically trashing all the old rules, cards and gaming material. This is basically a 'second edition' which feels like we now need to re-buy all the old game components to have them work right. Not sure that is a good thing.
DaveC wrote: One of the stretch goals will be for printed updated cards where needed to bring old game in line with the new rules - they will be available to non backers to buy at a later date.
While I love this, I can't help but think this shouldn't be a stretch goal....
People wanted more tiles for variety, not to be forced to throw their current tiles out. So if we don't hit the stretch goal all the current tiles are basically trash?
Seems like an odd design decision to not make the rules work with the old tiles 'as-is' so the stretch goal could be a fresh 3rd set of tiles for even more variety.
...
Dave's post says 'Updated Cards' not 'Updated Tiles', there shouldn't be anything wrong with the current tiles.. but the cards for players and monsters could use a redo to make things clearer.
Well new cards is slightly better, but still an issue. I don't look forward to basically having obsolete cards and models unless I get a whole new set of cards.
That is what i call a fake stretch goal because making all your previous 3 sets unusable with the new game rules because new cards didn't get funded sounds like suicide.
but having it as a stretch goal (assuming it's not just late stage stretch unlocking you the option to buy them) seems to lock them firmly into existing players only
New cards cannot be drastically different from the current cards. They just released King Starfire, Captain R, and Kaelly all with cards that work for the current game.
My guess is that updated cards would only be reprints with updated rule wording on things like lycanthropy or fly.
but having it as a stretch goal (assuming it's not just late stage stretch unlocking you the option to buy them) seems to lock them firmly into existing players only
rather than appeal to a new customer,
but I guess well see when this launches
I totally agree. Horrible stretch goal, especially as they said they'll be available to buy later. Completely "fake" stretch goal, as they're going to make them, or not sell any old sets. Already starting off on the wrong foot...
If it's some dorky arbitrary 5k apart dealie at the very outset, I don't think I'm going to lose much sleep over a stretch goal like that.
Someone better post up in here when things start too, if and when we ever find out (or maybe we can have fun time like when Brimstone launched and all of FFP's fans went bonkers).
I assume they mean something like the card switch from Warmachine Mk1 to Mk2 - where you'd have to get new cards for your old minis.
Kickstarter backers get them free, (if the goal is met) and they HAVE to be available at retail later so people not in the kickstarter can update their collections.
It seems like an OK enough stretch goal to me. I doubt it's going to be a huge one. And the first dozen stretch goals are almost always "fake" stretch goals. It's KS 101.
We will be charging all backers actual shipping costs, but will be providing everyone a basic shipping credit of $10 to help cover the expense. We are currently working on securing more localized ship centers for international backers to help reduce costs to them. We'll have better details on the shipping costs as the product enters manufacturing and we have final weight and dimensions based on whatever was unlocked.
The $10 should cover US backers or leave them with only a small bill and should help keep international within reason.
We will be charging all backers actual shipping costs, but will be providing everyone a basic shipping credit of $10 to help cover the expense. We are currently working on securing more localized ship centers for international backers to help reduce costs to them. We'll have better details on the shipping costs as the product enters manufacturing and we have final weight and dimensions based on whatever was unlocked.
The $10 should cover US backers or leave them with only a small bill and should help keep international within reason.
I'd be very surprised if $10 covered shipping for a lot of the US; if they're shipping from Washington (I think) and the box is over 4-5 pounds, you're going to be paying a bit of difference.
I don't mind that, obviously, but I really don't think it'll cover most of the shipping within the US, especially with the way rates are ballooning.
Curious if people will have outrage over this shipping model as well. Other KS have basically 'included' domestic shipping into the base pledge and then added on RoW costs and people flip their lids. I do think more KS are going to a 'you pay what you owe' model, but again, a lot of other people are then flipping their lids because they want a guaranteed fixed shipping and if the costs increase, they want someone else to eat it.
I am fine with "everyone pays what they owe' but be prepared for the 'you screwing us! set in stone shipping costs required!' crowd.
Given that it's Soda Pop, the actual shipping (to anywhere) could end up costing any amount. They're not exactly timely or competent about getting things out on the projected dates. RK is 10 months late right now, and it looks like Robotech will be a year (or more) late before it's all delivered.
We will be charging all backers actual shipping costs, but will be providing everyone a basic shipping credit of $10 to help cover the expense. We are currently working on securing more localized ship centers for international backers to help reduce costs to them. We'll have better details on the shipping costs as the product enters manufacturing and we have final weight and dimensions based on whatever was unlocked.
The $10 should cover US backers or leave them with only a small bill and should help keep international within reason.
I think that's the right move - at least for SPM. If they can't arrange shipping from within Europe, though, I expect that $10 won't even make a dent in the shipping, customs and handling fees. Doh!
nkelsch wrote: Curious if people will have outrage over this shipping model as well. Other KS have basically 'included' domestic shipping into the base pledge and then added on RoW costs and people flip their lids. I do think more KS are going to a 'you pay what you owe' model, but again, a lot of other people are then flipping their lids because they want a guaranteed fixed shipping and if the costs increase, they want someone else to eat it.
I am fine with "everyone pays what they owe' but be prepared for the 'you screwing us! set in stone shipping costs required!' crowd.
I agree with you. There was a lot of angst over the CMON one, so I expect some here too, mainly from the overseas backers. I am a tad more hesitant with SPM though, as they now have to figure out all this on their own. And someone just posted on the RK thread that SPM wants $15 to ship a SINGLE MINIATURE to England. Then add on VAT and customs....sheesh. I'm not excited to see what an entire boxed game + stretch goals would be. I applaud them with offering the $10 credit, but that pretty much means they're going to ask full retail price for TFK box.
As to the "fake" stretch goal for updated cards, if it is a small stretch goal, and they give the cards for free, then there is no reason for complaining. But it was made to sound as if it would be a stretch goal simply to make the cards, offer them for purchase after unlocking them. It was, most likely, just the way I read it, but not unexpected for the way SPM seems to operate.
OK I figured I'd check out their current shipping rates to Europe as some indication
SDE boxed game $52.65
Von Drakk (other expansions) $18.60
SDE plus and 1 expansion $55.20
SDE special edtion character $9.45
Even with $10 credit I'm not paying $42.65 for shipping on what's likely to be a $100 base pledge (plus I might have to add VAT and handling charge). $20 - $25 after the $10 credit is probably as much as I'm willing to go.
I can understand companies wanting to use the new backer pays actual shipping costs model for KS, I don't have a problem with it within reason. It will have 2 effects though lower pledge total as shipping isn't included and less money as international backers won't pledge they will just wiat for retail particularly as it will all be avaialble later.
DaveC wrote: OK I figured I'd check out their current shipping rates to Europe as some indication
SDE boxed game $52.65
Von Drakk (other expansions) $18.60
SDE plus and 1 expansion $55.20
SDE special edtion character $9.45
Even with $10 credit I'm not paying $42.65 for shipping on what's likely to be a $100 base pledge (plus I might have to add VAT and handling charge). $20 - $25 after the $10 credit is probably as much as I'm willing to go.
I can understand companies wanting to use the new backer pays actual shipping costs model for KS, I don't have a problem with it within reason. It will have 2 effects though lower pledge total as shipping isn't included and less money as international backers won't pledge they will just wait for retail particularly as it will all be available later.
Yeah I figure that is exactly what is going to happen - it takes a very committed fan to pledge for a copy of the game in the knowledge that it's going to cost them more than it would if they picked it up on the day of retail release without any kind of discount. But I suspect they have probably taken that into account already and I wouldn't be surprised to see a relatively low funding target which only just covers the cost of manufacturing TFK plus KS fees. Heck, with the way things have been going for SPM, not having to deal with many (or any!) pledges that need to be shipped outside of the US makes it simpler for them.. and simpler hopefully means less chance of them frelling something up.
Yeah, I agree. Their current webstore is not 'friendly' to international shipping. They are simply not equipped to handle it *yet*. Right now, if you want Kelly the netherstrider (or any SDE product) your best bet is to find a local distributor at retail.
That doesn't mean good things for backing the KS, unless they can partner with a distributor who will handle the bulk minis and re-ship.
Or you guys can find someone who can re-ship for cheaper... I have no idea how much it would cost me to drop a box in the international post, but I can't imagine it would be cheaper than 40$ish. May be worth piling on to a US backer for exclusives only and then waiting for retail for the main stuff as a small box of a few exclusive figs should ship relativity easy.
It'd be interesting to see if that runs afoul of KS's rules, though in the FAQ it seems to be worded more as a guideline:
How do I charge shipping on my reward?
In general, the cost to mail your backers their rewards (postage, envelopes, etc.) should be taken into account when you set your goal and price your rewards.
I suspect lacking an ironclad "you MUST include domestic shipping" clause that it won't, but I can see where some are going to be annoyed with SPM as a result of not doing the norm.
I actually ordered Kaelly yesterday direct from SPM shipped and all today she cost me €16.60 all in (so no VAT) she would have cost £9 plus £5 shipping (€17.20) from a UK stockist so she was actually cheaper direct but this only applies if the combined cost of the mini and shipping is less than €22 (the VAT threshold).
Krinsath that actually came up with the Arcadia Quest shipping as well CMoN checked (or say they have at least) and found out it's just a guideline and shipping can be collected later.
Yeah, reading how it's phrased it certainly does not seem like a "rule", but it does seem like an unneeded amount of ill-will to a company that's done itself no favors in the KS arena to add that hassle to ALL backers. It gives the appearance that they don't have a firm grasp on the costs to set the levels appropriately, and if you don't have a firm grasp on the costs it then casts doubt on the rest of the operation.
As I mentioned, their track record on having their act together has already taken some serious hits so I'm not sure taking more is a particularly good idea.
Well it seems to be the done thing for 'experienced' KS companies shipping out of the US now
I guess they've all been stung too heavily by price rises/box size changes/delays to gamble with it
but better a smaller campaign they can be sure will do what it needs to do financially than a larger one (thanks to fixed postal costs) that could just hit them with a loss down the line
It certainly will impact backer numbers (and especially international backers) though
More Teaser images - not the best quality for an official picture
FORGOTTEN KING PREVIEW!
Chomp-Chomp-P'Chooey-Chomp-Chomp!
The Dungeons and cursed woods surrounding the Forgotten Kings lair has been overrun by the once peaceful Kodama, woodland creatures, more plant, than animal. The sprouts are lively little Kodama, but be careful, when angered, they plant themselves and transform into the mighty King Sprouts! Capable of swallowing hapless heroes in a single bite, the Kodama have many minions to turn you into plant food.
Watch for the Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King Kickstarter, coming VERY soon.
Damn. You can get a better quality photo than that with an $80 cheap digital camera. What are they using to take these photos? A three year old smartphone?
EDIT: it's back with new pictures (ever get the feeling your being watched )
I suspect these are resin pieces with a digital paint of green over the image - Impact! have done the same recently to get a few minis ready for their KS without having to paint a whole mini.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, what ever happened to getting a decent photocube from amazon and using any basic, macro enabled camera to take a solid photo of a miniature.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regardless, I'm still tentatively excited about this project...but man, these updates are kinda bumming me out.
I guess if nothing else if the guys from SPM are reading forums outside their own after they release more information and are using that feedback to help prepare them for the KS and issues that are likely to arise then the teasers have served 2 purposes.
I'm also looking foward to this one I just hope shipping doesn't price me out of it though. The original SDE is still very hard to get here (it took me 3 attempts to get it the first was with Maelstrom just before they went out of business) and shipping from anywhere else is pricey so if I can get from KS for about what it would cost in store (€90/$120) without futher taxes and handling charges then happy days actually up to $125 is good with me $100 pledge and $35 for shipping ($10 credit for shipping)
I'm with Cincy on this. Basic visual presentation is one of the most important things in a KS/pre-order situation.
Dave - of course, they're reading forums now. It's almost time to launch. They'll be posting here as well, and then after the campaign ends, will disappear, never to be heard from again until the next campaign.
I fully expect the postage (and inevitable SPM delays) to price me out of this KS completely. That's ok though. I've seen Zombicide S2 make it to retail before my backer copy arrived, and the same is about to happen with Myth. Given the postage cost issues, it'll probably be cheaper (and maybe, faster) to support a local e-tailer.
DaveC wrote: I guess if nothing else if the guys from SPM are reading forums outside their own after they release more information and are using that feedback to help prepare them for the KS and issues that are likely to arise then the teasers have served 2 purposes.
I'm also looking foward to this one I just hope shipping doesn't price me out of it though.
I'm really not trying to be negative, because I want this to be successful, but man, it's little things like this that eventually add up and really shoot my confidence right in the face.
DaveC wrote: I guess if nothing else if the guys from SPM are reading forums outside their own after they release more information and are using that feedback to help prepare them for the KS and issues that are likely to arise then the teasers have served 2 purposes.
I'm also looking foward to this one I just hope shipping doesn't price me out of it though. The original SDE is still very hard to get here (it took me 3 attempts to get it the first was with Maelstrom just before they went out of business) and shipping from anywhere else is pricey so if I can get from KS for about what it would cost in store (€90/$120) without futher taxes and handling charges then happy days actually up to $125 is good with me $100 pledge and $35 for shipping ($10 credit for shipping)
Dave - I'm a bit torn between this one and Arcadia!
What's your take on the two, and how they compare, or don't?
I was so bored after work today that I actually spent time talking to my colleagues! The nerve!
I guess I'm in the easy to please camp. Sure those pictures weren't the best, but we've seen decent shots of the new stuff before (from the various trade shows), so it isn't like it's a huge surprise.
Like everyone else I'm very curious as to how they're going to price and structure things.
Not sure as I haven't had a chance to look at Arcadia Quests rules yet they seem to be quite different games that share a similar asthetic but I wouldn't want to make a comparison without giving the rules a proper look over. I wasn't overly impressed with the gameplay video.
I still have a pledge on AQ but I'm not really feeling it and will probably drop out before the end one other deciding factor is that I have everything available for SDE so I'm quite invested in it already and I'm trying to limit the number of new games I'm investing in at the moment. I could have let the $90 ride on the AQ KS I had it to spare but then that damned Poots took $95 off me yesterday
It's actually strange how little the two overlap! Arcadia is basically a PvP raid of an escalating series of locations, where monsters just represent barriers to the all-important loot, and it's a case of choosing when to backstab each other. As I understand it, penalties for death are quite trivial, but cost you all-important time. I'm therefore not sure if it'll be as good-natured a game as something like Zombiecide.
SDE is an asymmetric combat game, with clearly defined goals for each side - still PvP, but asking very different things of the players. The original game arguably made things quite difficult for the consul player, as they had to do the majority of the planning and model-shuffling.
The new co-op mode should make things entirely non-competitive, but will hopefully add enough events/monster tactics to keep things interesting. Kingdom Death, Shadows of Brimstone and Journey all look to be going down the "give tons of items and monsters and choices and locations" road to provide variety/challenge, which I think SDE might struggle with unless they change their focus quite a bit for this game.
I also think the two games don't share a huge amount of aesthetic overlap - Arcadia tends toward ghoulish and detailed characters, with small and quite generic tiles, whereas SDE is far more overtly cute, with huge lush tiles that may still provide less variety.
The Always Super pledge includes three upgrade card packs: Dragonback Peaks, Caverns of Roxor, and Von Drakk Manor, each includes updated, errata'd, and slightly rebalanced cards for everything in the set.
The Always Super pledge includes three upgrade card packs: Dragonback Peaks, Caverns of Roxor, and Von Drakk Manor, each includes updated, errata'd, and slightly rebalanced cards for everything in the set.
That's at least better. You knew they were going to make them, so at least it isn't a crummy stretch goal that opens up the ability for me to pay for them....
Well they said there's only one pledge level and when someone on facebook said they couldn't spend more than $50 - $100 the response was they should be covered (just) with that.
I'm guessing $100 standard pledge $90 EB
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have any more info on the stretch goals while we wait?
Heroes, monsters, all the trimmings.
Is "Always Super" the standard (just the box) tier or the McD's super size tier?
Always Super is the single pledge. So no worrying about which pledge level gets what. Always Super gets all the free Loot items. Then Blacksmith items are optional purchases. There is a healthy mix of both types.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see SDE is gone from the CMoN store (as is Relic Kinghts). They got Kaelly in but that's the last they'll be getting when she's sold out they won't have anymore SDE stuff.
Soda Pop Miniatures So.. to be clear. NO EXCLUSIVES - EVERYONE deserves to get their hands on the cool things we are making here. There WILL be great upgrades and unlocks... but not over the top - we want to keep this project on schedule!
Also - NO EARLY BIRD TIERS.. in fact.. there is ONE TIER - and what you see is what you get, the better we do, the more we can pack into the box for you.
ALSO - UPDATED CARDS for Vandells and NyanNyan and other promo heroes will make it into the upgrade decks, which ALL backers will receive as a part of their pledge.
just a couple more days... we are itching to do it too
Soda Pop may just end up getting more money out of me yet.
I know exclusives tend to drive sales up, but a good deal is a good deal whether I can buy everything a few months down the line for more money or not. HOPEFULLY they keep hold of the reigns pretty tight on this campaign. Reading Deke's comments, that's what it sounds like they're going to try to do.
Plus those Mistbourn come as a complete surprise.
We also are getting 6 new heroes with those 2 new bonus ones.
Sounds like it starts next week as well. I guess that's good for both AQ and this.
Exciting things sure are happening on Kickstarter this March!
Very awesome - super looking forward to this, and it's already a damn good deal from the get go.
6 Heros
4 New spawning points worth of monsters
2 mini bosses
1 boss
All new cards for all the pre-existing heros/monsters
Pets/Traps
New Game mode
New Tiles
Extra dice/Treasure Chests/Boo booties
Tons of new treasure/loot cards
If you have any (let alone all) of the pre-existing SDE stuff a $100 pledge like triples the play value of it. And that's before any stretch goals!
Seeing the contents of the box, I wonder if there are enough Squirrel decks to justify selling Squirrel tokens by the bag? Bags of Sprouts as Saprolings would be another option.
Yeah I guess I'm happy about the lack of EB thing and certainly about the exclusives. It makes for a less spectacular KS but it allows people to get the 'complete' experience later which I've always been in favour of (it's the reason I won't get Zombicide)
Well, I could be off-base here (as I bought SDE a couple of years after release, and in the UK), but I think the original base game was $100 retail.
So their logic is: you get the base game + 3 upgrade decks for your existing stuff + an extra hero + an extra monster group + applicable stretches for retail price, in exchange for not getting your usual retailer discount.
Of course, SDE stuff is so overpriced in the UK (current best Amazon price is £52 (=$87) for Von Drakk), that shipping and import duties aside, this might prove to be cheaper than buying off the shelves anyway. Here's hoping for a within-EU shipping option though!
It looks like this will end as the base game, an expansion, updated cards and a few heroes for $100 plus shipping
It looks like the mist mourn stuff is being set up as an expansion it's already a mini expansion stretch goals could boost it to a full expansion 2 more heroes another spawn point or 2 of monsters and a mini boss.
So your probably looking at retail of $100 base game, $60 expansion 2 or 3 heroes/mini bosses at$12.95 each and say cards at $5 a set (plus a few extra monsters here and there) so potentially $214 worth discount 20% for online retailers $170 ish worth for $100.
Note all speculation on my part not based on anything I've read.
I like that the boxed game is more or less complete (I expect a few more heroes) so they aren't taking stuff out to refill it later.
I don't see the crazy value you guys are seeing...
Base game = 79.99$
Heroes: Base 9, TFK 4
Boss: Base1, TFK 1
Minibosses: Base 2, TFK 2
Spawns: Base 3, TFK 4
Minions: Base 28, 26
Treasure: Base 5/2, TFK 5/3
So the core box is less product but about the same as the old core, which is easily obtainable for 80$ or less which means paying 100$ for the privilege of preorder and potentially crazy international shipping, there is no value.
Mistmourn Coast is maybe a fireflow denziens expansion pack which is 20ish dollars.
Candy is a single hero. 10$
So at *what I can get stuff for now* retail, this barley adds up to 110$ if I were to buy it all from miniature market or some other retailer.
While the value may appear later, right now, it is practically retail at this price. And for them making me wait 6 moths for a product they said in august would be on the shelves by now... They need to do a little better than that.
- A single Pledge level with no early birds makes it unambiguous and 'fair' to all.
- Sounds like it's going to be a tightly scoped KS, which is never a bad thing in terms of delivery estimates and prodution schedules
The Not So Good:
-You're efffectively getting this for the same amount you'll be able to get it for at retail, except you have to pay them six months early.
- No exclusives for the KS make the incentive to back the KS a bit less.
Going to be interesting to see how well it does. If it's basically a pre-order, I actually may be out. I don't know how comfortable I am giving SPM my money early without any serious incentive to do so. :/ But my mind can be changed!
I think nkelsch is being generous with those prices, or they've been extremely lucky. I was never able to get any of my SDE stuff that cheap!
I had a tough time finding the original SDE for only 80. In the end I got mine by dumping a bunch of prepainted figures that had gone up in value around the time I started getting back into painting, and I "paid" around the equivalent of 90 something.
Haven't been able to pick up any minibosses for under 15 with shipping either, and they've going for more at my local store (when they bother carrying them/ have any stock left).
I did get lucky with Roxor, finding someone had mislabeled an auction for a new box and got that for 30 with shipping though.
While this might be close to retail when the campaign starts, let's see what they do with stretches. I think that can really jack the value up.
It's not a bad offering, but as nkelsch points out it's not a fantastic deal either since they're still charging you closer to retail than wholesale (i.e. - the typical KS pricing tactic). If that is the sum total of the offering, as some have indicated it will be, then it is a questionable value for SPM to have your money for 6 months which in many ways would translate into costing you MORE than picking up most of the stuff at retail later (or more likely from a discount shop).
I might still toss in a pledge just because I like SDE, but I'll need to think on it more.
They have more bits they want to add to the main box set funding permitting, the pledge graphic is the base game at the start of the KS.
There will be minion packs available separately
30 Day KS ending on a weekend (or adjusted to end on a weekend but close to 30 days)
Older SDE stuff might be available in the pledge manager.
This next one muddies the water a bit when working out value:
MSRP is still to be determined due to how much we can include in the box, based on the outcome of the campaign - but we are targeting no higher than our current set, and lower if able.
30 days ending on a weekend.. they could do it tomorrow or sunday they say ending a campaign on a sunday is a good idea, for some reason I never tried to figure out. I get the feeling they wanna launch it before the end of Arcadia Quest to steal some of their end of the campaign thunder. Or would that end up with AQ stealing SDE's beginning campaign thunder?
Their post from this morning suggested a few days yet but I don't know Friday is a good launch day from what I've seen and they'd be mad not to launch before AQ ends. That's all dependant on if they have KS approval and if they don't have some form of agreement with CMoN not to overlap projects who knows what was in the release agreement they came to.
Yeah, I straight up pulled prices of MM. I know I can reliably get the core set from ebay with free shipping for around 70$ish.
This is something that kills me is when a KS is 'MSRP of all the swag is 400$' when no one pays MSRP at retail. US domestic people get a MINIMUM of 20% off and free shipping for bulk orders from lots of retailers. So for me, 20% and free shipping is the GROUND FLOOR for comparing prices for US people.
I don't think this is a BAD deal... I will be backing this fully. But right now, it is basically 'retail' prices... I only wish I was paying RETAIL prices right now and had my green monsters on my table like was kinda expected from the past 8 months of teasing.
The main thing which is gonna hurt, is international people who get a CRAZY deal would be incentivized to back as for 30-40$ shipping they would be getting 100$ of extra value. That is simply not there (yet). Since KS releases usually are hitting retail pretty fast after backers get theirs, and international people are often delayed getting KS anyways, There may not be a reason to back and just wait for retail.
I like the models, and the game. I would be happy to pay 100$ for that, but people want 'more' from KSs. We will see how this grows. I would be surprised if they had more up their sleeve.
Even with potential shipping hits it's probably worth it for international backers as SDE has been a pain to get hold of, and certainly not much discounted
but we'll see (the thought that they don't have an MRSP in mind, and think the might have it lower than the $100 SDE is now is a bit worrying)
I think they hit the mark with the base pledge. They put just enough discount on it so you won't be "better off" as a customer of an online retailer a few months down the road as compared to being a backer this month. That is a good starting point. The stretch goals can add value and pull in the people who want more.
I'd be happy enough paying close to retail (after shipping costs and potential VAT are included)- retail based on European prices not based on US prices as most prices in dollars end up being a 1 for 1 conversion into Euro (i'd still like a small discount or bonus stuff for backing 6 months plus early) given how hard SDE can be to get and the hassle of ordering from mutliple places - speaking of which.
Stretch goals offered through this kickstarter, depending on how far we fund, will be a mix of online only products, and in-store packaged supplements.
So some stuff while not exclusive will only ever be available direct from SPM.
the Arcade deck is used as the primary driver of monster actions in Arcade mode, our new Coop game play mode, with the Explore deck being used to actually adventure and explore the dungeon, as rooms will and should have different aspects and effects in them - some awesome for the heroes.. and some ... not so much
the Arcade deck is used as the primary driver of monster actions in Arcade mode, our new Coop game play mode, with the Explore deck being used to actually adventure and explore the dungeon, as rooms will and should have different aspects and effects in them - some awesome for the heroes.. and some ... not so much
Sounds cool. I am not going to say this is 'copying' off anyone because I feel like a ton of games in a short period of time all kinda reached the same concept of deck-based AI and deck-based quests around the same time, independently... No one was clearly the originator of this design and they all slightly different. It is a good mechanic which works IMHO. I think it is cool there will be both monster AI and environment stuff.
The main thing that makes me hesitant with this game is that they keep saying it has a limited scope. Them saying that direct only figures as stretch goals has me questioning, what direct only figures? All the bosses they've released have been sold by retailers. I think them adding "gangs" as add-ons to drum up extra money is fine, but not as stretch goals to unlock buying them.
I'll be comparing this KS to CMONs AQ. They've unlocked a full supplement, 15 extra heroes, 5 heroes you can buy, physical 3D pieces to replace their cardboard tokens AND a box to put all the extra in. TFK is essentially starting at the exact same offering as AQ did, minus heroes. With them espousing this "limited scope" approach though, I see them having a finite amount of good goals, with the rest being fluff filler stuff like Mantic panders out. Oh, for $10k we'll write a 10 page story of how awesome our game is. Their main competitor, CMON, has pretty effectively set the bar with their AQ campaign. 98% of everyone posting in this thread owns/likes SDE already. While I haven't gotten the other expansions, I have owned SDE from the beginning, but the play style just wasn't as much fun as I thought it was going to be. I hope the co-op is good, as that will make this a fun family game without punishing one person as the DM. But they really need to pull out the wow, and early. I am really interested to see what they set their initial funding goal at.
I will be tracking this one, waiting to see if they really shine, or if there really isn't any improvement over their other offerings.
Salacious Greed wrote: The main thing that makes me hesitant with this game is that they keep saying it has a limited scope. Them saying that direct only figures as stretch goals has me questioning, what direct only figures? All the bosses they've released have been sold by retailers. I think them adding "gangs" as add-ons to drum up extra money is fine, but not as stretch goals to unlock buying them.
Retailers get an initial supply of all SDE stuff, but after that runs out some of the heroes are only available direct from SPM. At least, that's how I think it works.
Miniature Market and Warstore both have Cpt. R and Kaelly. MM even have all the other "special editions" including vandella, herald of vulcanis, and nyan nyan.
I am not convinced these are special or exclusive at all.
SPMFB: "Stretch goals offered through this kickstarter, depending on how far we fund, will be a mix of online only products, and in-store packaged supplements."
So about how many figures can I proxy with the update cards? I have a boxful of Homestarr Runner figures I haven't done anything with...
I think this campaign is a subtle push towards new gamers, such as BGG. They're keeping things simple, casual backers *hate* EB's, no exclusives means people who didn't back may still purchase after retail, and the "free" upgrade cards encourage new players to buy the previous expansion sets.
EDIT: How do I get the update cards if I don't pledge for this KS?
Dais wrote: Miniature Market and Warstore both have Cpt. R and Kaelly. MM even have all the other "special editions" including vandella, herald of vulcanis, and nyan nyan.
I am not convinced these are special or exclusive at all.
Funny you should mention that, just yesterday I was considering buying Kaelly so checked The Warstore and didn't see any other hero except Captain R.
Miniature Market, however, does have them all in stock. Thanks for pointing that out! Gonna have to grab some of those.
A quick announcement - just a few more hours till we launch the Forgotten King kickstarter for Super Dungeon Explore. You have all been so patient. .. prepare yourselves, for the Forgotten King!
Thank you again to all of you for your support. This will mark our first venture on our own, and we need your help!
I am looking forward to this one, although I'm still uncertain that I'll go through to the end on backing depending on how the offering shapes up versus buying at retail.
If nothing else, I can practice my Azazelx-fu by talking of pulling my pledge every so often.
That's a joke Az, please don't randomly select one of your nearby 15k poisonous creatures to mail to me...
They made a comment on their forums which makes it sound like they don't intend to let things 'run away' on them.
we have learned a lot being poked and driven by others to expand our projects beyond scope chasing money. We dont want to do business that way - it is our personal ethos, and those that know us, know that we want everyone that can, to enjoy the benefit of a program like this, so, for that, we believe that we can bring everyone new and special content - having a Kickstarter supported by so many wonderful and thoughtful fans and friends is a privilege that we don't want to abuse like we see in so many other "racing" campaigns. We have set what we believe is a realistic scope to deliver this project in a timely manner, if we fund well, we can push forward more concepts and content that we have had sitting on the shelf simply waiting for the capital needed to manufacture - which is better for the entire community, and all our players. And for our products, we want the best quality we can deliver - so, no flea market products with wilting cardboard and shoddy miniatures... we are getting out on our own, because we are Soda Pop Miniatures, and that means something to us.
I think that the expansions beyond the core they have offered will be limited, and the stretch goals will be spread out and reasonable. You won't see 100$ pledge gets you 273$ of product retail! LOLZ! 112 models! or other things.
I would not be upset to get the current launch for 100$ and that is it. It is slightly better than retail, I just wish it was retail *NOW* and not 6 months from now. Even AQ put the breaks on their own campaign and decided 'we got enough money to get us to retail, we will wait for retail for the rest of the profit'. With the change in KS campaigns where companies almost go broke fulfilling and become addicted to KS funding in almost a Ponzi-scheme-like business model, I think it will be good to see a company which really does a small, solid launch and hopefully turns it into retail releases afterwards.
Well hopefully they're as generous as they can get away with being...
I bought the first print of the original SDE core box, which had the notorious assembly issues. I was so horrified that I sold it off and never looked back, while harboring a desire all the while to get into the game.
I was hoping this KS would be a big "relaunch" of sorts and a generous Kickstarter is a great way to separate me from my funds quickly. :-p
I haven't had any issue with any of the stuff they've put out for SDE so far (although I did get a later print run of SDE) my only real gripe is that the later minis are preassembled and glued to the base so they require deconstruction to paint but I understand why they did it to cater to the board game crowd. Chibi minis tend to be a lot simpler as well so harder to mess up (Though not impossible) I had a look at some of the Robotech stuff and man some of the kits have a huge amount if parts.
Joyboozer wrote: I'd recommend anyone backing this take a look at Ninja Divisions work on Robotech, the production quality of the sculpts are terrible, and very late.
Joyboozer wrote: I'd recommend anyone backing this take a look at Ninja Divisions work on Robotech, the production quality of the sculpts are terrible, and very late.
Not to forget Relic Knights
Their newer prototypes look much better. No idea about robotech but a lot of people seem to complain about it.
Robotech is coming up on a year since the campaign closed, sculpts looking horrible from an assembly point of view, condescension from the creators, silence from Soda Pop / Ninja Division since the campaign ended (they were very chatty and nice during the campaign) and not a single mold made with only 2 or three models shown off and even then they are at protoype-ing stage.
Remember this was the game that backers were assured by Palladium Games & SodaPop / Ninja Division, was supposed to go into production 45 days from May 21st last year.
Cyporiean wrote: TBH, I think Robotech is a poor comparison: SDE doesn't have to go through 2 additional approval processes to get anything done.
True and I accept that but the models which are the responsibility of ND/SP are piss poor. Just see the last two updates in the Robotech Kickstarter for the storm that's exploded over there.
One question on that point: Is it fair to be using Soda Pop and Ninja Division interchangeably? I've not delved into that relationship too deeply, but it does seems to me like they are separate entities who happen to be related. Much more along the lines of ForgeWorld (who know how resin works) and Games Workshop (who clearly don't) than Citadel and Games Workshop which are functionally one and the same. At least that's how it reads to me, but as I mentioned I'm ignorant on the subject. That IS a matter of interest to anyone on this campaign.
Relic Knights was definitely on them, but Robotech seems much more like a "blame to go around" situation.
Relic Knights delivery issues bothers and annoys me.
I will *NOT* trust *ANY* concept art from Sodapop on this campaign as none of the Relic Knights SDE Chibis match their art, and some were drastically different. (and we haven't gotten them yet)
As for SDE quality, VON DRAKK was much better in detail and casting compared to the two previous. NyanNyan and Captain R were both really nice quality. I am not worried about quality, and I can muddle through assembly issues, but it is a concern.
Basically, I am backing this for the same reason I backed AQ. I collect these kind of models and I want these models, so even if they screw up or are late or have other issues, I will accept it in order to get these models. I wouldn't recommend the risk to people who are not already 'All In' and will stomach the issues we may see with all involved parties.
Cyporiean wrote: TBH, I think Robotech is a poor comparison: SDE doesn't have to go through 2 additional approval processes to get anything done.
True and I accept that but the models which are the responsibility of ND/SP are piss poor. Just see the last two updates in the Robotech Kickstarter for the storm that's exploded over there.
Palladium is also a company known to completely redo stuff handed in by Freelancers, and screw it up in the process. I get the feeling that even if it was Paulson doing it they'd still manage to screw things up for him.
Krinsath wrote:One question on that point: Is it fair to be using Soda Pop and Ninja Division interchangeably?
Ninja Division is made up of people from Sodapop & Cipher Studios (Helldorado, Anima Tactics), they share some staff so blame gets shared between them regardless of to what degree it should be.
we have learned a lot being poked and driven by others to expand our projects beyond scope chasing money. We dont want to do business that way - it is our personal ethos, and those that know us, know that we want everyone that can, to enjoy the benefit of a program like this, so, for that, we believe that we can bring everyone new and special content - having a Kickstarter supported by so many wonderful and thoughtful fans and friends is a privilege that we don't want to abuse like we see in so many other "racing" campaigns. We have set what we believe is a realistic scope to deliver this project in a timely manner, if we fund well, we can push forward more concepts and content that we have had sitting on the shelf simply waiting for the capital needed to manufacture - which is better for the entire community, and all our players. And for our products, we want the best quality we can deliver - so, no flea market products with wilting cardboard and shoddy miniatures... we are getting out on our own, because we are Soda Pop Miniatures, and that means something to us.
These guys crack me up. I understand having some self-belief, but don't they recognize how poor their public image is right now? Their association with CMON made them more legitimate. Their break from CMON actually makes me concerned, and question if they'll be able to find their own with both hands...
we have learned a lot being poked and driven by others to expand our projects beyond scope chasing money. We dont want to do business that way - it is our personal ethos, and those that know us, know that we want everyone that can, to enjoy the benefit of a program like this, so, for that, we believe that we can bring everyone new and special content - having a Kickstarter supported by so many wonderful and thoughtful fans and friends is a privilege that we don't want to abuse like we see in so many other "racing" campaigns. We have set what we believe is a realistic scope to deliver this project in a timely manner, if we fund well, we can push forward more concepts and content that we have had sitting on the shelf simply waiting for the capital needed to manufacture - which is better for the entire community, and all our players. And for our products, we want the best quality we can deliver - so, no flea market products with wilting cardboard and shoddy miniatures... we are getting out on our own, because we are Soda Pop Miniatures, and that means something to us.
These guys crack me up. I understand having some self-belief, but don't they recognize how poor their public image is right now? Their association with CMON made them more legitimate. Their break from CMON actually makes me concerned, and question if they'll be able to find their own with both hands...
They are lowering expectations and preemptively telling everyone why a lower total than AQ and Mantic Dreadball Extreme and a lower 'perceived' value is a 'Good thing' (tm) because the impression they are making is those other companies race for high totals and sacrifice quality and customer experience in the name of high totals.
This is why I don't think we will see 200$ MSRP worth of stuff for 100$. We are around 110$ of merch if bought at a discounter reseller at retail. So we have a slight discount. We may see a little more but I don't expect to see 75-100$ more of product added to this base pledge.
We will see how it works for them and what we actually get. I would hand them 125$ right now if they had all this on the SPM store right now. That is their fatal flaw, instead of begging for KS money, they could have just made this stuff and sold it and everyone would have paid for it.
So realistically, we will be lucky to have it by Q2 2015. Which means two years from Von drakk.
If they were smart, the new rules and backwards compatibility packs should be released as fast as possible to keep people playing SDE. 3 decks of cards and an electronic rulebook should be all we need to play with current models.
They can't slip by one single day with a 9 month expected turn around for something which we were told 8 months ago would be launched and available at retail "today".
we have learned a lot being poked and driven by others to expand our projects beyond scope chasing money. We dont want to do business that way - it is our personal ethos, and those that know us, know that we want everyone that can, to enjoy the benefit of a program like this, so, for that, we believe that we can bring everyone new and special content - having a Kickstarter supported by so many wonderful and thoughtful fans and friends is a privilege that we don't want to abuse like we see in so many other "racing" campaigns. We have set what we believe is a realistic scope to deliver this project in a timely manner, if we fund well, we can push forward more concepts and content that we have had sitting on the shelf simply waiting for the capital needed to manufacture - which is better for the entire community, and all our players. And for our products, we want the best quality we can deliver - so, no flea market products with wilting cardboard and shoddy miniatures... we are getting out on our own, because we are Soda Pop Miniatures, and that means something to us.
These guys crack me up. I understand having some self-belief, but don't they recognize how poor their public image is right now? Their association with CMON made them more legitimate. Their break from CMON actually makes me concerned, and question if they'll be able to find their own with both hands...
Are they trying to give their side of the story in a subtle manner with the whole conundrum that is Relic Knights?
I do have to wonder with their falling out with CMON, how much exp. do they have with dealing with Chinese manufacturing on their own? I don't know their entire history. Was the first DE produced by themselves or with CMON's aid?
They can't slip by one single day with a 9 month expected turn around for something which we were told 8 months ago would be launched and available at retail "today".
The box they had planned on launching 8 months ago was not a new edition for the rules nor a starter product. At the time they gave that date Forgotten King was meant to be a normal expansion like Von Drakk. They changed their plans some time last winter.
One of the backers doing that was kicked off Arcadia Quest for slagging off CMoN in the comments there, kickstarter deleted all of their comments it looks like he'll stir up some trouble again if he can (although doesn't appear to have started it didn't need a second invite) he is well known for being anti CMoN he has even changed his backer name to try and hide his identity.
Anyway I hope people leave that be if neither party is going to talk about it its best to focus on the project at hand.
Not really - no Early Bird speculators, launching at a weird hour, and setting an actual goal amount (i.e. not a fake $5,000 or something). It's about 2/3rds of the way there already anyway.
Sining wrote: It's more interesting to see if this will actually have stretch goals. From the page, it doesn't seem so, which means it's kinda meh.
Also, would have been more interested if they let us add-on existing expansions/stuff/minibosses to the pledge amt
They will/do have stretch goals. And quite a fair of bit of them it seems.
Just posted this little map:
So up first is pets, and then a second mage of some sort! There's at least 10 stretch goals - but since the dotted line extends off the image, so I imagine they have a second one ready if need be.
#3 has been circumvented so many times, I'm surprised people still bring it up. How many times has Mantic sold previous stock before? I remember zombicides2 seemed to offer previously available zombicide dice as well.
Also, stretch goals would help me consider whether I want to back since the current pledge level is kinda meh to me. There's not much discount on shipping which means I might as well wait for it to appear on MMs daily deal
The new heroes look to be a step-up in power from the last few expansions. They all have at least a 2x Red-dice base offensive ability. And 3x Blue armour.
Thundervale Huntress already looks to be one of the best. She has higher attack than Angry Bear! with probably the best AoE in the game. Along with reach 2, movement 8, decent Armour and Will. She's gonna be devastating to lowly mooks like Cobalds. Guess it makes up for looking like MLP.
Questing Knight look very good too. He's a got a decent variety of special attacks, and is likely never going to die once he gets an armour upgrade.
Princess Emerald looks almost identical to the Hexcast Sorceress, just with will/dex reversed. Yet she also has Subduing Shot, which is quite a big attack. So she's probably more useful than Hexcast.
Can't really say much about Fae Alchemist without knowing what Alchemy and Experimental Concoction does (hopefully something good that gets her more potions). At least she has decent stats anyway. So If nothing else, she can nuke 3 mooks per day with her 2 red dice and Magic 4.
Smacks wrote: The new heroes look to be a step-up in power from the last few expansions. They all have at least a 2x Red-dice base offensive ability. And 3x Blue armour.
Thundervale Huntress already looks to be one of the best. She has higher attack than Angry Bear! with probably the best AoE in the game. Along with reach 2, movement 8, decent Armour and Will. She's gonna be devastating to lowly mooks like Cobalds. Guess it makes up for looking like MLP.
Questing Knight look very good too. He's a got a decent variety of special attacks, and is likely never going to die once he gets an armour upgrade.
Princess Emerald looks almost identical to the Hexcast Sorceress, just with will/dex reversed. Yet she also has Subduing Shot, which is quite a big attack. So she's probably more useful than Hexcast.
Can't really say much about Fae Alchemist without knowing what Alchemy and Experimental Concoction does (hopefully something good that gets her more potions). At least she has decent stats anyway. So If nothing else, she can nuke 3 mooks per day with her 2 red dice and Magic 4.
They did say they are rebalancing every thing, hence the new stat cards. So the new heroes are probably not directly comparable to the olds one, yet.
Ok for those in the EU only if they manage to arrange shipping from an EU site to avoid us having to pay 20% extra in VAT plus a handling charge (hopefully as they get more backers it will make financial sense for them to do this)
one to keep an eye on but not dive straight in to
Oh and I hope they show at least some of the Arcade mode/co-op rules as I'd like to see how solo play friendly they are
I do like the KS structure on this, only one pledge level at $100, then a few add-ons.
Nice and simple when a lot of campaigns are loaded with early birds, time-limited pledges and KS exclusives.
I guess the main thing keeping me away from this is the tales of the first boxed set being a nightmare/ almost impossible to assemble and clean.
Well, that and mystery shipping fees/ mystery customs fees kills it dead for non-US backers. I don't think many US-based kickstarters are actually interested in pursuing international markets anymore after the USPS shipping hike. $40 shipping and $30 customs on a $100 board game = Big Fat Nope.
scarletsquig wrote: I guess the main thing keeping me away from this is the tales of the first boxed set being a nightmare/ almost impossible to assemble and clean.
I picked up one of the first boxed sets. And I read the first scathing review online, by the guy who couldn't assemble his dragon. It's a shame because I think that one review put more people off the game than anything else, yet it was largely nonsense. The guy declared himself and his friends to be 'experienced modelers', yet none of them seemed to know that it is fairly normal for resin parts to warp during production, and that dipping them in a drop of hot water is all you need to put them right. I've had the same thing with Fantasy Flight games (one of my CoT pieces was bent right over on her base like a limbo dancer), also had bent parts happen with Claustrophobia.
Everything since then for SDE has come pre-assembled, this almost certainly will too. Personally I'd rather get the bits, as it's easier to clean and paint and base models that I assemble myself. Though it is nice to be able to play things straight out the box too.
Ok for those in the EU only if they manage to arrange shipping from an EU site to avoid us having to pay 20% extra in VAT plus a handling charge (hopefully as they get more backers it will make financial sense for them to do this)
one to keep an eye on but not dive straight in to
Oh and I hope they show at least some of the Arcade mode/co-op rules as I'd like to see how solo play friendly they are
Supposedly they're looking into EU shipping right now. Not quite sure why so many Kickstarters launch with no firm plans about shipping, and then scramble to find quotes during the campaign!
As I understand it, everyone pays the 20% VAT anyway (however the product ends up inside Europe, as long as it costs over a certain small threshold) - and I rightly expect that be factored into the shipping costs. The way these end up being astronomical is through:
- individual packages being sent out from the US, rather than being bulk-shipped and redistributed. The recent price rises hit this method the most.
- the VAT not being paid on packages before shipping, meaning that the courier has to pay the VAT themselves before claiming it off you, and charges a stupidly high 'handling fee' in the process.
- more dubious, but if you're bulk-shipping product for redistribution, you can mark the taxable cost as being production or at least wholesale cost, rather than the full whack that was pledged, or possibly just the value of the core pledge. I recall Reaper packages running into some hot water with this though - customs didn't believe that 5 vampire boxes and 3 Kaladraxes had a value of $100!
Cyporiean wrote: No, Starfire was a huge pain to assemble. The rest of the box was a breeze.
When you're right, you're right. I actually had to get mine replaced because even with the hot water treatment I couldn't get him assembled correctly.
Nearing the $125k stretch goal now.
I'd say it'll be interesting to see what the next goal will be, but I think we're going to have to wait a little bit as the Ninja Pop crew is at GAMA in Vegas and probably isn't up yet.
Soda Pop has heavily implied that hey bought their publishing license back from CMON and will begin supporting it on their own after the kickstarter has shipped.
The only thing I can say about the material is it is a softer plastic, almost rubber. It is easy to clean with a knife, but doesn't take sanding well.
Everything I have ever gotten which was pre-assembed was fine. If you are in it for the models, they are nice models which need minimal cleanup. If you are a boardgamer, the colored plastic means you don't have to do a thing and can just play.
I am more worried about timeline, and the history of the involved parties.
Alpharius wrote: I thought this new box set had 'pre-assembled' miniatures?
And that was mostly going to be the way forward for Soda Pop with SDE?
It does, and it is, much to the chagrin of those of us that would prefer to clean and assemble our own models This is done for the lazy, super complainy boardgaming types that cant' be bothered to assemble on their own.
Also - does Soda Pop now also fully 'own' Relic Knights, or is that game in some sort of limbo now?
While I think there is still an outstanding balance between the two, this is the case.
scarletsquig wrote: I guess the main thing keeping me away from this is the tales of the first boxed set being a nightmare/ almost impossible to assemble and clean.
I would say the SDE models were no harder to assemble than anything Mantic has produced. In fact, the parts design is fairly similar in terms of what goes where and it only goes in one way. If you assembled DeadZone and DreadBall, SDE's starter box would be no different (and probably easier since they were bagged with just one type of model per bag). Cleaning is a bit of a question mark as obviously it depends on the particular casting quality in a given box. The stuff I've gotten has had very minimal lines overall though. More annoying is a few places where the break from the sprue is apparent, but a lot (70%+ in my made-up estimation) of that is the discoloration of the break (i.e. - the "white spot") which would likely be obscured by paint anyway.
Where I'm leery of backing this just yet is that it's not that huge of a discount for a product being paid for 9 months (or likely more, given their rep) in advance, especially with shipping costs (which become free from many online retailers at the price points being discussed). I understand this won't be a bonanza of plastic, but I do expect SOMETHING for the opportunity costs I'm incurring which seem to be coming in the form of "loot" goals. Might wait until the end to have a clearer picture instead of getting roped into the "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of logic that comes from already putting down $100.
IIRC, the BIGGEST headache with the assembly of the original SDE box was the LACK of instructions on how to assemble them.
Yes, they had pegs that were designed to fit in specific holes, but at least in my box, parts for the various models were in different baggies and I had to take guesses until I was pointed to an online assembly guide..
regular board gamers had a much harder time trying to assemble without miniature experience.
I had no problems with the original box other than Starfire.
It really was no worse than a bag of random Mantic figures, or trying to figure out where all the tiny bits go on a Mierce figure that has absolutely no directions whatsoever.
As I attempt to work my way through the piles of unfinished minis laying around the house, I get closer and closer to succumbing to painting up my SDE stuff.
I'm wondering if we'll pass the 150k mark before they even get up to update it.
Soda Pop and Ninja Division are at GAMA all week so updates and comments from them might be a bit slow that and I believe it's currently 7:16 AM PST right now.
DaveC wrote: Soda Pop and Ninja Division are at GAMA all week so updates and comments from them might be a bit slow that and I believe it's currently 7:16 AM PST right now.
Yeah, they're 3 hours behind EST.
They really should make it a priority to get the rest of the stretches up before heading to the GAMA hall if they want to keep the momentum going.
I guess the main thing keeping me away from this is the tales of the first boxed set being a nightmare/ almost impossible to assemble and clean.
This is nothing to be concerned about. The models were quite easy to put together and warpage simply needed a hot water bath.
The "nightmare" people were having was only due to them never having assembled minis before at all.
There are plenty of things to be concerned about with this campaign. The quality of the miniatures probably isn't one of them.
I take offense at the notion that SDE 1.0 was a nightmare to assemble because I somehow lack experience cleaning, assembling, etc... I have been doing it for years now, with no issue. The truth is, the first, and ONLY the first, run of SDE was the worst models to assemble that I have ever seen. The pieces warped, points of contact were terribly planned out... It was a mess. Now they knew as much, and it WAS issue enough that all further runs were dramatically improved.
I've since seen the minis, and played the game, and it is great, no issues here... but there's no point in revisionist history.
I really like the 6 pets models, and can swallow that it was a $50k stretch goal because it was 6 figures that really will make the game funner. But if every other $25k stretch goal is going to be a paid add-on, I'm a bit disenchanted already. You've already sculpted it, you're going to sell it later. Don't "reward" me by saying 'see, all that money means you can buy it NOW!!'. Limited in scope in deed: we'll take more of your money, and give you less stuff than other KSs.
I will reserve judgement til the end, but I believe CMON ran a limited scope KS with AQ also. They kept the SGs coming until the last day, which I don't think ramped the money up at all, it was all the fence sitters getting in before the lock at the end that drove the price up beyond the $700k. If SPM just cuts the SGs off and lets the money keep totalling up WAY beyond the last SG, then I think there will be hurt feelings and angst.
I will reserve judgement til the end, but I believe CMON ran a limited scope KS with AQ also. They kept the SGs coming until the last day, which I don't think ramped the money up at all, it was all the fence sitters getting in before the lock at the end that drove the price up beyond the $700k. If SPM just cuts the SGs off and lets the money keep totalling up WAY beyond the last SG, then I think there will be hurt feelings and angst.
CMoN has been running "limited scope" KSes since Rivet Wars. Every one they've done since then has had a "final" stretch goal.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I take offense at the notion that SDE 1.0 was a nightmare to assemble because I somehow lack experience cleaning, assembling, etc... I have been doing it for years now, with no issue. The truth is, the first, and ONLY the first, run of SDE was the worst models to assemble that I have ever seen. The pieces warped, points of contact were terribly planned out... It was a mess. Now they knew as much, and it WAS issue enough that all further runs were dramatically improved.
It appears that despite their claims to the contrary in their copy/paste "risks" section of the KS that ND/Soda/Whatever didn't learn from that as the Robotech minis sprues and designs look very poorly planned out. Seems going right across the front of the model multiple times, parts broken up into multiple pieces that don't need to be like space marine sized heads, and piss poor poses whose only variation is the angle you choose on the arm or leg (but not multiple poses). Also, if Relic Knights and Robotech are any indication, the Dec 2014 date is a complete farce.
Salacious Greed wrote: I really like the 6 pets models, and can swallow that it was a $50k stretch goal because it was 6 figures that really will make the game funner. But if every other $25k stretch goal is going to be a paid add-on, I'm a bit disenchanted already. You've already sculpted it, you're going to sell it later. Don't "reward" me by saying 'see, all that money means you can buy it NOW!!'. Limited in scope in deed: we'll take more of your money, and give you less stuff than other KSs.
I will reserve judgement til the end, but I believe CMON ran a limited scope KS with AQ also. They kept the SGs coming until the last day, which I don't think ramped the money up at all, it was all the fence sitters getting in before the lock at the end that drove the price up beyond the $700k. If SPM just cuts the SGs off and lets the money keep totalling up WAY beyond the last SG, then I think there will be hurt feelings and angst.
Quite a few kickstarters don't load up on free extras. I'd rather they push out a decent product than go broke trying to soak up pledges. Similar to how Relic Knights went. They offered more than they were prepared to make, possibly through ignorance of the manufacturing process. Hopefully this kickstarter will be much smoother, and it seems to be from the information released so far. They don't need another Relic Knights or Robotech "fiasco", so I'm sure they want this to go off without a hitch. They want to make money, and continue to make money for years to come.
Sinful Hero wrote: Quite a few kickstarters don't load up on free extras. I'd rather they push out a decent product than go broke trying to soak up pledges. Similar to how Relic Knights went. They offered more than they were prepared to make, possibly through ignorance of the manufacturing process. Hopefully this kickstarter will be much smoother, and it seems to be from the information released so far. They don't need another Relic Knights or Robotech "fiasco", so I'm sure they want this to go off without a hitch. They want to make money, and continue to make money for years to come.
Sinful,
I agree completely. They want a nice, smooth campaign that they can deliver on time, with no hitches.
However, all the "good" KSs lately have pretty decent SGs and added content for the backers. I don't need a kabillion freebies, but every other SG shouldn't be something to buy. Since the backers are pretty much giving this company all of its future profits for nothing on this game, they can surely throw in some freebies.
I'll take a smoothly run and delivered-on-time KS over one that's late with freebies any day. For $100 I think it's a pretty good deal. I'll consider a few add-ons if they tickle my fancy.
Sinful Hero wrote: Quite a few kickstarters don't load up on free extras. I'd rather they push out a decent product than go broke trying to soak up pledges. Similar to how Relic Knights went. They offered more than they were prepared to make, possibly through ignorance of the manufacturing process. Hopefully this kickstarter will be much smoother, and it seems to be from the information released so far. They don't need another Relic Knights or Robotech "fiasco", so I'm sure they want this to go off without a hitch. They want to make money, and continue to make money for years to come.
Sinful,
I agree completely. They want a nice, smooth campaign that they can deliver on time, with no hitches.
However, all the "good" KSs lately have pretty decent SGs and added content for the backers. I don't need a kabillion freebies, but every other SG shouldn't be something to buy. Since the backers are pretty much giving this company all of its future profits for nothing on this game, they can surely throw in some freebies.
It's only the beginning of the campaign. I'm sure they'll end up tossng in a few things eventually. Of course, they could very well prove me wrong too.
. I can't imagine this news will help CMON's campaign (or vice versa with CMON's news on their game).
given 
in. TFK is essentially starting at the exact same offering as AQ did, minus heroes. With them espousing this "limited scope" approach though, I see them having a finite amount of good goals, with the rest being fluff filler stuff like Mantic panders out. Oh, for $10k we'll write a 10 page story of how awesome our game is. Their main competitor, CMON, has pretty effectively set the bar with their AQ campaign. 98% of everyone posting in this thread owns/likes 
