So, I have been scouring ebay for some heresy items and have come across one that I definitely know is a fake, (the seller told me his supplier in china had to cast it up, and that was why the shipping took so long), so the question is this, to report or not to report? i'm not even considering buying as I don't trust the quality of a recast and even if I did, forgeworld seem to be the only aspect of GW still looking out for the fans, so I feel that I should show a little brand loyalty, what do you say?

Even if you report, what can they do really? If you're so loyal then don't buy.

eBay can remove the listing, ban the seller, freeze his paypal, a whole host of things actually. If they bother is another story, I was not intending on purchasing this item, too much about it seems wrong (manufacturer in china sends to a dude in Central Europe, who checks it for quality then posts it to me in England, bit odd).

I am pretty sure this thread jumped the shark into Dakka territory a scant 3 posts in...

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I am pretty sure this thread jumped the shark into Dakka territory a scant 3 posts in...

I'm not sure how but if it has then apologies, i just wanted opinions from folk on how (and even if) I should react to a definite forgery. If it does breach any dakka rules please lock. Just to make it clear, I am in no way advocating buying faked models, no matter his skillfully done they are.

I don't think he was aiming that at you. I think he was counting your first post at post 1, not post 0.

Report it. Not just for GW but to get fakers of all kinds off eBay. They are a pain, as many people who have purchased fake goods in error will attest. By reporting any fakers you are making it a more hostile environment for them. I don't know about fakers but eBay are very good at removing listings for fake/blank car log books and clocking kits so it is worth reporting.

Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

 Ouze wrote:
Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

It's not quite an "IP Vigilante" here, this isn't "Hey look, someone is producing a "counts as Space Marine" mini, this is blantent recasting of GW stuff. It's copyright infringement (not copyright theft which isn't even a thing) and - in the UK at least, I can't speak for American laws, it is illegal.

Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Stranger83 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

It's not quite an "IP Vigilante" here, this isn't "Hey look, someone is producing a "counts as Space Marine" mini, this is blantent recasting of GW stuff. It's copyright infringement (not copyright theft which isn't even a thing) and - in the UK at least, I can't speak for American laws, it is illegal.

Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

GW getting their overpriced IP infringed is the same as somebody getting robbed on the street now? LOL

As long as they continue to pull shenanigans like charge $20 for a pdf with 1 page of rules, I will continue to not care when their IP is infringed upon. In fact you could look at these recasters as doing us all a favor. If they screw GW over enough (they won't, really though) maybe GW will have to sell the IP to somebody who isn't an idiot.

Maybe if GW sold their stuff at reasonable prices they wouldn't have this problem. Recasters only make money because GW charges exorbitant prices, so the still high prices for plastic toys that recasters charge look cheap in comparison. GW doesn't need your online white knighting, they are litigious enough and are basically anti-paladins already.

You should let GW know. Wrong is wrong. I have been at several conventions where I met recasters on site selling fake GW recasts. I bought some, and sent them into GW with all the information I had been able to gather. Of course I didn't let the recasters on to what I did.

Part of me posting this here is because I was somewhat shocked at how brazen the seller was about it, admitting in a eBay message it was a copy (unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?). There are a few other sellers floating about of a similar ilk, for example item description 'this is an exquisite reproduction of forgeworld's 'add item name'.

OK, folks, obligatory reminder time: Dakka does not, and can not, endorse any sort of IP infringement. That includes allowing discussion that wanders too far over the line into promoting it as well. Please keep that in mind, as inappropriate posts will be removed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sirius42 wrote:
...(unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?)..

They did for a time. There has been some speculation that at least some of the Forgeworld recasts floating around online probably came from illicit use of actual Forgeworld moulds in China, rather than recasting. Still dodgy, just for a slightly different reason - they still have no permission to be selling casts of Forgeworld models in either case.


Chinese recasters are often fairly open about what they do, as they don't see a problem with it due to the generally lax enforcement of copyright law in China. eBay will shut them down on the request of the OP owner, though.

Report it.
The type of people who recast (and those who knowingly buy from them) ruin it for people who actually legitimately produce stuff.
Regardless of your feelings about GW pricing, it's still wrong.

 ZultanQ wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

It's not quite an "IP Vigilante" here, this isn't "Hey look, someone is producing a "counts as Space Marine" mini, this is blantent recasting of GW stuff. It's copyright infringement (not copyright theft which isn't even a thing) and - in the UK at least, I can't speak for American laws, it is illegal.

Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

GW getting their overpriced IP infringed is the same as somebody getting robbed on the street now? LOL

Yes, cause I didn't preface it with "Without trying to say this is on the same level" or anything - I clearly tried to say that they were exactly the same thing.

Illegal is illegal, simple as - if you see someone breaking the law you should report it.

Also, again this isn't IP infringement (a civil matter) it is copyright infringement (a criminal matter) it is an important distinction.

And telling people that they should report people who break the law is white knighting now? Wow, I really don't want to live in a world that is like that.

I wouldn't buy stuff that's currently in production because that just being cheap not shortage of supply. Things that GW have scrapped like supplies for specialist games and Squats? Well there's little harm as GW don't sell BFG stuff and similar any more so they're not making sales on which to lose out. Also if they'd bothered to support many ranges in the first place, the secondary market wouldn't be so desperately expensive. There are people who recast rare figures and pass them off as the genuine article to cash in on high rarity. This I feel is immoral because you're conning people, at least be open about it, or as much as might be reasonable.

Stranger83 wrote:
[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Games Workshop doesn't fit my idea of a defenseless victim in need of assistance from passerby. It's a poor analogy. GWS has a very large and aggressive legal department and I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.

Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.

For all of those saying gw is a big faceless corporation this is true but IMO forgeworld seem like a very decent bunch, not that this changes the legalities but maybe the desire to help out?

Kelly502 wrote:You should let GW know. Wrong is wrong. I have been at several conventions where I met recasters on site selling fake GW recasts. I bought some, and sent them into GW with all the information I had been able to gather. Of course I didn't let the recasters on to what I did.

Wonderful if you've got money to waste on things like that I suppose...

Ouze wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.

I feel the same way.

 Ouze wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Games Workshop doesn't fit my idea of a defenseless victim in need of assistance from passerby. It's a poor analogy. GWS has a very large and aggressive legal department and I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.

Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.

So if you see a mugger being beaten up by some vigilantes then you wouldn't report this either? What if they were using baseball bats? What if they had a knife?

Just how illegal/innocent does something have to be before you would report it?

I fully agree that GW are over zealous when it comes to IP infringement, I hate them for that, but I'm of the opinion that society gives us a bunch of rules to live by, we call these rules the law and if someone breaks them then you should report it.

You're opinion may well vary and that is fine - I just hope that you never are the victim of a crime that could have been stopped but someone thought it was "fair" because you earn more than them, or because you were once mean to someone.

I wouldn't work in a soup kitchen, this requires more of my free time than I'm prepared to give, however pressing a "report" button takes seconds and helps me prevent someone doing something illegal.

I didn't answer your analogy because it's not a good one, and expanding upon it is not improving it.

 Ouze wrote:
I didn't answer your analogy because it's not a good one, and expanding upon it is not improving it.

Then just answer this one:

Just how illegal/innocent does something have to be before you would report it? The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

I wonder if the people here that are so understanding of Copyright infringment would keep the same attitude if it where privateer press minis or infinity minis instead of GW stuff.

 Seneca wrote:
I wonder if the people here that are so understanding of Copyright infringment would keep the same attitude if it where privateer press minis or infinity minis instead of GW stuff.

I doubt it. Those companies have retained a higher level of goodwill, are non-public, and are much, much smaller than GW.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Seneca wrote:
I wonder if the people here that are so understanding of Copyright infringment would keep the same attitude if it where privateer press minis or infinity minis instead of GW stuff.

I doubt it. Those companies have retained a higher level of goodwill, are non-public, and are much, much smaller than GW.

And thats exactly my point. It is ok as long as we are talking about GW but Nurgle have mercy if you dare to consider this option for products made by a company that is not the target of such contempt. I'm always surprised by such doublestandards. When it is illegal to recast PP's work than it is too for GW's stuff.

It's not really double standards. A company that treats its customers in an at-times questionable manner is bound to have less people that care about it enough to report illegal activities concerning it (or, at least to make an effort/go out of their way to make authorities aware).

Rightly or wrongly, over the past 6-10 years GW have built up the image of a company 'run by suits' - they have lost that human, relatable element that is held by other, smaller, companies (and actually, used to be the case for GW themselves). I wouldn't ever knowingly buy forgeries myself as I admire that GW have managed to keep much of their production in the UK, and it gives people jobs. But, a lot of what they have done as a company is despisable, unsuited to what is really such a small and personable industry, and their public image as well as inflated prices have lead to a large growth in the illegal copies of their products.

 Pacific wrote:
It's not really double standards. A company that treats its customers in an at-times questionable manner is bound to have less people that care about it enough to report illegal activities concerning it (or, at least to make an effort/go out of their way to make authorities aware).

Rightly or wrongly, over the past 6-10 years GW have built up the image of a company 'run by suits' - they have lost that human, relatable element that is held by other, smaller, companies (and actually, used to be the case for GW themselves). I wouldn't ever knowingly buy forgeries myself as I admire that GW have managed to keep much of their production in the UK, and it gives people jobs. But, a lot of what they have done as a company is despisable, unsuited to what is really such a small and personable industry, and their public image as well as inflated prices have lead to a large growth in the illegal copies of their products.

The last recast thread that came up, I pointed out that even if you know where to look, recasts for other popular games are few and far between. Someone who had spent a lot more time looking into the whole subject (I forget the username, sorry) replied that he had actually talked this over with a recaster, and the response was it wasn't down to price or popularity, the overwhelming majority of purchasers, where the topic came up, were simply disenchanted. There is a significant lack of that element in PP or Corvus Belli fans, and consequently that demand wasn't there in sufficient numbers to be worth the recaster catering to it, despite the fact it takes very little investment to simply offer them for sale and then cast to order.

Stranger83 wrote:
The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

The law may certainly be the law, but everyone has their own set of morals/ethics.
Besides, laws can be disregarded at times.

And, speaking of reporting some crimes and not others, I assume you make a personal appearance to the police station on your own initiative every time you go over the speed limit while driving? It is the law, after all.

 Sirius42 wrote:
So, I have been scouring ebay for some heresy items and have come across one that I definitely know is a fake, (the seller told me his supplier in china had to cast it up, and that was why the shipping took so long), so the question is this, to report or not to report? i'm not even considering buying as I don't trust the quality of a recast and even if I did, forgeworld seem to be the only aspect of GW still looking out for the fans, so I feel that I should show a little brand loyalty, what do you say?

Honestly?

You throw a tag on it to Feebay, ( heh heh..) and then move on. You do not owe anything other then a cursory nod, and call it a day. Brand loyalty doesn't really apply, its more a matter of- "Oh, another one of those..." because these small time recastors just disappear and reappear that randomly.

At the end of the day, its about making money.

GW can make it, or you can throw it at some .... other gent, and its still going out of your pocket. It's not a moral dilemma, anymore then putting on jelly before peanutbutter, or adding in peanutbutter before the jelly.

At the end of the day, its wrong, but not your issue, unless you want it to be.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

The law may certainly be the law, but everyone has their own set of morals/ethics.
Besides, laws can be disregarded at times.

And, speaking of reporting some crimes and not others, I assume you make a personal appearance to the police station on your own initiative every time you go over the speed limit while driving? It is the law, after all.

I never said that people cannot have their own set of morals - there is plenty that is Illegal that I think shouldn't be, and plenty of things that are not illegal that I think should be - but me thinking something shouldn;t be illegal doesn't change the fact that it is.

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

Stranger83 wrote:


I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

Ha! What a load of bull. Even my Gran went over the speed limit occasionally.

You sir, are either a (highly implausible) liar, or you're being cute because you can't drive.

Stranger83 wrote:

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

No you wouldn't, stop undermining your credibility by trying to be absurd in the Internet to win a discussion.

 azreal13 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:


I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

Ha! What a load of bull. Even my Gran went over the speed limit occasionally.

You sir, are either a (highly implausible) liar, or you're being cute because you can't drive.

Stranger83 wrote:

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

No you wouldn't, stop undermining your credibility by trying to be absurd in the Internet to win a discussion.

I've really not - at least not on purpose. I suppose there are occasions where the particular road speed limit is different to the normal speed limit and since I don't know the area I might have gone over it - but it's difficult to turn yourself in without realising that you have broken a law.

I can;t believe that you find it implausible that someone follows the law of the land - I find that quite strange.

And yes I would, as someone here has already pointed out the police have the authority to not press charges if they feel it wasn't needed - Maybe I am I unusual but personally I'd prefer to have a clean conscience than have a clean driving licence.

I find it equally strange that you really feel that speeding is the sort of thing that would render you incapable of having a "clear conscience."

To the OP tbh I have been thinking on buying from re-casts (have not bought anything but have been thinking of it) as I am tbh, sick of GW's neglecting of us gamers.

I think what we have to consider is that morality is not as black and white as us humans think it is, instead it is a very, very linear line that defines what is right or wrong (and that's how I see it)

Now with that in mind, I would feel guilty if I had bought re-casts if GW was good too me as a gamer and customer and I have shelled out hundred's of pounds on that company already and I do not feel as if I have received much benefit from the company, a good example is how the rules are and how the game is played currently in 6th ed. in this edition we may have received nice looking models, but at the same time the majority for the units and models I like have abysmal rules that benefit my opponent more then myself.

So why would I give more to a company that doesn't really care much about certain aspects of a hobby that I desire?

GW think of business as a one way handshake, when it is a double edged blade.

They should provide us with good models (which they do and if I deem it enough quality I will buy the official product provided it is not at an absurd price) but also provide us with a set of good rules for their price, now I know a lot of people already will be saying now that they don't have too because it is mainly a model company but when they do sell rules (at the price they do), they are also covering another aspect of the hobby they so promote therefore if they are going to cover part of the hobby then they should do it well. GW does not provide this and just slings the phrase of "beer and pretzels" to cover up their incompetence of rules writing.

So why should I treat a company with my cash if they are not going to treat me right as a customer covering an area of the hobby and advertise that it is a game?

This goes with the same with any company who rushes into the mindset of £££ is more important than the customer because they are wrong, after all how can the make that £££ without the customer to spend it on? the trick of running a company is to get the right balance between the £££ and treating their customer right with the areas of what they provide.

therefore if I do want something then I will try to get it as cheap as I can because why not? I do not feel as if the company has treated me with enough respect to meet my standards (as it has with many other customers I assume), and if GW notices that my money has disappeared tough luck, that's what happens to questionable company's.

I will not that this is my opinion as a customer viewpoint and nothing more, nothing less.

Honestly given the prices that GW charges, I'd have no moral qualms about using recasts as much as possible. In the same fashion I would have no qualms about acquiring the rules via other means, because they cannot justify the price they charge.

As an aside, in my area while GW and forgeworld are almost treated as seperate entities, many conversations go along the lines of 'GW, man its expensive,' 'yeah but did you see the preview of all the cool new stuff forgeworld are doing', kinda like GW's hot elder sister, you have to hang out with gw to hang out with the hotness. However that does not seem to be the case in this thread, i find it odd.


anyway back to the topic on hand, I can see both sides of this 'report it its theft' and 'let GW fight their own battles' seem to be the 2 camps coming out of this thread, (with a small minority in camp 3 going 'Buy Buy Buy'). I find myself inclined to agree with the report it crowd, if only because it hurts the hobby and I have quite a lot of goodwill towards the forgeworld branch of the hobby.

Going back to the speeding comment earlier.... REALLY? you'd really own up to speeding and turn yourself in? I find that baffling

Well, you know it's like "what do you do" if no one does anything then they get away with it right?

Hey who knows, maybe GW will give you a free art print?

 Sirius42 wrote:
As an aside, in my area while GW and forgeworld are almost treated as seperate entities, many conversations go along the lines of 'GW, man its expensive,' 'yeah but did you see the preview of all the cool new stuff forgeworld are doing', kinda like GW's hot elder sister, you have to hang out with gw to hang out with the hotness. However that does not seem to be the case in this thread, i find it odd.


anyway back to the topic on hand, I can see both sides of this 'report it its theft' and 'let GW fight their own battles' seem to be the 2 camps coming out of this thread, (with a small minority in camp 3 going 'Buy Buy Buy'). I find myself inclined to agree with the report it crowd, if only because it hurts the hobby and I have quite a lot of goodwill towards the forgeworld branch of the hobby.

Going back to the speeding comment earlier.... REALLY? you'd really own up to speeding and turn yourself in? I find that baffling

How do you feel it hurts the hobby?

It hurts GW, unless you subscribe to the school of thought that recast sales would never have been GW sales, but the hobby? Not really. If anything, if people are buying a wider variety of units and playing them, then surely the hobby is more diverse and interesting?

Unless you're making the fairly crucial error of conflating GW games and wargaming as the 'hobby?'

I've already made the point that non-GW recasts are thin on the ground, so damage to the hobby at large is surely limited?

 Grot 6 wrote:

Honestly?

You throw a tag on it to Feebay, ( heh heh..) and then move on. You do not owe anything other then a cursory nod, and call it a day. Brand loyalty doesn't really apply, its more a matter of- "Oh, another one of those..." because these small time recastors just disappear and reappear that randomly.

This - just tag it and let Ebay handle the problem. If they get flagged enough they'll get shut down, for a time. And then come back some time later with a new name and new paypal account most likely. There's not a lot you can do besides inconvenience them.

It's like pulling weeds. You know you should do it - but it feels very futile because new ones will just keep springing up.

 Ouze wrote:
... I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.

They have unpaid people defending everything else they do, so why not this?

 insaniak wrote:
OK, folks, obligatory reminder time: Dakka does not, and can not, endorse any sort of IP infringement. That includes allowing discussion that wanders too far over the line into promoting it as well. Please keep that in mind, as inappropriate posts will be removed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sirius42 wrote:
...(unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?)..

They did for a time. There has been some speculation that at least some of the Forgeworld recasts floating around online probably came from illicit use of actual Forgeworld moulds in China, rather than recasting. Still dodgy, just for a slightly different reason - they still have no permission to be selling casts of Forgeworld models in either case.


Chinese recasters are often fairly open about what they do, as they don't see a problem with it due to the generally lax enforcement of copyright law in China. eBay will shut them down on the request of the OP owner, though.

I have a bit of experience with pirated models. I bought 3 Space Wolves packs for a good price from a Chinese seller who had a ton of GW models up for sale, but I was pretty annoyed when I discovered they were all recasts (the material is far more fragile than GW plastic, which is a problem on some of the thin pieces). About a week after I bought them, all of their GW stuff was gone, so obviously someone reported them.

I also got a FW SW Dreadnought for a decent price from a Russian seller, and while I didn't notice anything off about the model, the fact that it came from Russia is usually a good indicator of a recast.

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

As for the moral issues, I'd rather stick with real GW stuff just because the quality tends to be better. However, GW's retail prices are too high for me to consider anymore, so when I buy, it's whatever I can manage to afford. If that means recasts, then I won't defer to them, but it's an option.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

See, this would be crossing a line for me. One thing that I've seen on most of the stuff for sale that is recast is either overt or implied notice that it is recast, which would make it easy for anyone who cared to assess the risks (location or price being the implied, some ads simply stating outright that they're 'replicas' or similar)

Learning how to dye the resin suggests an attempt to deceive, which, and the irony isn't lost in me, takes some of the 'honesty' out of the transaction. Ripping off a company's IP may be illegal, one may personally feel it is morally wrong, but going out of your way to deceive your customer too is crossing a line for me.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Sirius42 wrote:
As an aside, in my area while GW and forgeworld are almost treated as seperate entities, many conversations go along the lines of 'GW, man its expensive,' 'yeah but did you see the preview of all the cool new stuff forgeworld are doing', kinda like GW's hot elder sister, you have to hang out with gw to hang out with the hotness. However that does not seem to be the case in this thread, i find it odd.


anyway back to the topic on hand, I can see both sides of this 'report it its theft' and 'let GW fight their own battles' seem to be the 2 camps coming out of this thread, (with a small minority in camp 3 going 'Buy Buy Buy'). I find myself inclined to agree with the report it crowd, if only because it hurts the hobby and I have quite a lot of goodwill towards the forgeworld branch of the hobby.

Going back to the speeding comment earlier.... REALLY? you'd really own up to speeding and turn yourself in? I find that baffling

How do you feel it hurts the hobby?

It hurts GW, unless you subscribe to the school of thought that recast sales would never have been GW sales, but the hobby? Not really. If anything, if people are buying a wider variety of units and playing them, then surely the hobby is more diverse and interesting?

Unless you're making the fairly crucial error of conflating GW games and wargaming as the 'hobby?'

I've already made the point that non-GW recasts are thin on the ground, so damage to the hobby at large is surely limited?

Maybe hurting the hobby was the wrong choice of phrase, It does come back to the fact that this is a forgeworld item and in my experience they have always been very good about everything, they do previews, talk about their planned rules and releases, their customer service (I damaged a couple of parts on my warhound and they sent me replacements free of charge, with no fuss, I was super impressed, as It came up in a casual conversation while putting in my gamesday preorder, I was not even asking for replacements, they just offered) and basically they act like GW used to. This means that I have a lot of goodwill towards them, by buying and enabling the recasters I feel it damages some of that goodwill.

as for GW as the hobby, until about a month ago it was the only show in town so in essence it was the hobby (although loads of guys have recently picked up bolt action). I realize there are other games out there but the driving force behind all wargaming here was until very recently GW.

Here's my take (which also, nicely avoids the whole "GW is a load of jerks" conundrum):

Is the seller honestly telling the buyers that he is recasting GW product?

If not, he's misleading his buyers. Maybe you aren't taken in, but somebody may be. Report him. He is a dishonest seller. He is selling one thing as another. Reporting him protects other buyers who might not recognize this state of events.

I would do that for someone recasting Victoria Miniatures, or Kromlech, or Privateer Press, and I'd do it for Forgeworld and GW, too. Regardless of whether the company is a single bloke laboring in his garage or a bunch of faceless suits, the seller is misleading his buyers.

If the seller claims that something is a GW sculpt when it isn't, it should get reported (or at least, corrected). If the seller says that all the parts are there, and they aren't, it should get corrected. If the seller says that it is metal and it is resin, it should get corrected. It's not a GW (or Forgeworld) piece if it is a recast.

It's not about protecting GW. It's about protecting the buyer by enforcing truth-telling on the seller. You aren't the IP police, or GW's rescue team. You are an ebay member who sees someone misleading other people. I don't expect you to scour over listings looking for fraud, but if you see something fraudulent, you should report it, to protect other people. I would hope that other people would do the same for you.







Now, for an advanced question, if the seller knows that something is a recast, and deliberately conceals that fact, then, perhaps, you might also consider that he is willing to mislead buyers to get a sale. It might lead one to wonder about the seller's business ethics.

Da Butcha has summed up my feelings nicely.

Also, as others have said - Forge World is the one branch of GW that does not tick me off.

Even though their prices are, in general, even higher than the standard GW I do not feel like they are ripping folks off - so buying recasts of Forge World actually serves as a deterrent for the rest of GW cleaning up their acts.

If folks do not think that GW is giving value for money... then they should change games, not reward pirates.

Or, if you like the GW games then buy figures from Kromlech, Raging Heroes, Avatars of War, Victoria Lamb, Game Zone, Mantic, Chapterhouse, Scibold, or any of a number of other 3rd party miniatures crafters - many are better value for money and some are just straight up better miniatures.

The Auld Grump

Stranger83 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

The law may certainly be the law, but everyone has their own set of morals/ethics.
Besides, laws can be disregarded at times.

And, speaking of reporting some crimes and not others, I assume you make a personal appearance to the police station on your own initiative every time you go over the speed limit while driving? It is the law, after all.

I never said that people cannot have their own set of morals - there is plenty that is Illegal that I think shouldn't be, and plenty of things that are not illegal that I think should be - but me thinking something shouldn;t be illegal doesn't change the fact that it is.

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read, even for the internet.

As far as recasts go, I don't see the harm. Some random guy on Ebay selling plastic models is somehow going to bankrupt a massive corporation? Yeah, sure. Recasters are simply a symptom of a much larger problem with GW's business model, practices, and pricing. If they do somehow manage to "lose business" because of a recaster, good! Maybe they'll consider coming down to earth on their insane prices and treating their customers with a bit more respect.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

See, this would be crossing a line for me. One thing that I've seen on most of the stuff for sale that is recast is either overt or implied notice that it is recast, which would make it easy for anyone who cared to assess the risks (location or price being the implied, some ads simply stating outright that they're 'replicas' or similar)

Learning how to dye the resin suggests an attempt to deceive, which, and the irony isn't lost in me, takes some of the 'honesty' out of the transaction. Ripping off a company's IP may be illegal, one may personally feel it is morally wrong, but going out of your way to deceive your customer too is crossing a line for me.

Yeah, I hate counterfeiters that don't have good morals....

OP you would have spent less effort flagging this up to eBay and cc-ing in GW than it would have taken to post here and angry up the natives. I'd do it happily as I'll have no truck with forgery/counterfeit/piracy on any product.

There seems to be a distinct core of cheapness in gaming that will try to justify their behaviour by blaming GW (the victim? ) and their heinous business practices, the chap above that justifies it because of the rules is a real gem.

This is all very much a thin end of the wedge issue. There are rules in society that we all should follow and censure for those that do not. If we excuse this then why stop there; why recast when you can shoplift etc?

It's like those bell ends that leave shopping trolleys in the car park and don't put them back in their little Perspex corrals with their shopping trolley mates or litterbugs or people eating BK in Maccy Ds. The next thing you know Tina Turner's in charge and we are in the Terrordome chanting "two men enter, one man leaves".

But seriously just report it.

I know its a little bit late to post this but a budday of mine got a recast Russ he rang forgeworld about it to let them know aswell as reporting the ebayer, forgeworld in turn asked for it to be sent in and they replaced it for free as thanks for giving them a heads up.

 notprop wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

See, this would be crossing a line for me. One thing that I've seen on most of the stuff for sale that is recast is either overt or implied notice that it is recast, which would make it easy for anyone who cared to assess the risks (location or price being the implied, some ads simply stating outright that they're 'replicas' or similar)

Learning how to dye the resin suggests an attempt to deceive, which, and the irony isn't lost in me, takes some of the 'honesty' out of the transaction. Ripping off a company's IP may be illegal, one may personally feel it is morally wrong, but going out of your way to deceive your customer too is crossing a line for me.

Yeah, I hate counterfeiters that don't have good morals....

OP you would have spent less effort flagging this up to eBay and cc-ing in GW than it would have taken to post here and angry up the natives. I'd do it happily as I'll have no truck with forgery/counterfeit/piracy on any product.

There seems to be a distinct core of cheapness in gaming that will try to justify their behaviour by blaming GW (the victim? ) and their heinous business practices, the chap above that justifies it because of the rules is a real gem.

This is all very much a thin end of the wedge issue. There are rules in society that we all should follow and censure for those that do not. If we excuse this then why stop there; why recast when you can shoplift etc?

It's like those bell ends that leave shopping trolleys in the car park and don't put them back in their little Perspex corrals with their shopping trolley mates or litterbugs or people eating BK in Maccy Ds. The next thing you know Tina Turner's in charge and we are in the Terrordome chanting "two men enter, one man leaves".

But seriously just report it.

Yes, clearly, this would be the start of an all-out societal breakdown - anarchy would ensue within the next two weeks if these fiends are not punished and punished severely. Honestly, you're equating buying a recast plastic model to shoplifting? I guess all those people who are using "counts-as" models are doing the same thing because, after all, they're opting to take money out of GWs pocket by not paying outrageous prices for little hunks of plastic.

He very clearly did NOT equate buying recasts with shoplifting, he claimed it was the next step down the ladder.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that participating in IP infringement is a crime which is in the same family as actual retail theft. They may not be the same crime, but they are certainly related. As Jules might say, they might not be in the same ballpark, but they certainly ARE the same sport.

Now, THAT being said, I think that the morality of the situation is pretty subjective here. I certainly wouldn't report them. (Ever since I heard about what happens to WoW gold farmers who can't make their quotas, I've been a little more leery about reporting criminal activity in the gaming community that involves possible Asian prison laborers. )

When it comes to the law, it all comes down to a judgment call on how far you're willing to take it. Would I buy a stolen Rolex? No. But I wouldn't call the cops on a guy who offered me one, either. Of course, I also break the speed limit if I'm in a hurry.

 Jimsolo wrote:
He very clearly did NOT equate buying recasts with shoplifting, he claimed it was the next step down the ladder.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that participating in IP infringement is a crime which is in the same family as actual retail theft. They may not be the same crime, but they are certainly related. As Jules might say, they might not be in the same ballpark, but they certainly ARE the same sport.

Now, THAT being said, I think that the morality of the situation is pretty subjective here. I certainly wouldn't report them. (Ever since I heard about what happens to WoW gold farmers who can't make their quotas, I've been a little more leery about reporting criminal activity in the gaming community that involves possible Asian prison laborers. )

When it comes to the law, it all comes down to a judgment call on how far you're willing to take it. Would I buy a stolen Rolex? No. But I wouldn't call the cops on a guy who offered me one, either. Of course, I also break the speed limit if I'm in a hurry.

They definitely don't use sweat-shops or slave labor to make the models. they have like 2-3 guys from a few locations that supply most companies recasts. (which just goes to show how not overly common it is) and there are a few people who work alone and make their models. At worst they have to make anew account if he is reported. But yea it doesnt take a horde of children to make a few recasts after talking to someone in that area of business.

A lot of the sellers are actually people who went to china to be teachers. In china western teachers are regarded as highly important. Its so easy for them to get jobs as teachers there so they go there to be a teacher and in their spare time make and sell recasts. I know a lot of people who spent a few years in china teaching (not for illegal activity just out of interest) so thats where a lot of it comes from.

So dont feel bad if you report the guy, he will just be delayed a while in his selling.

Stranger83 wrote:

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

While I do it very single time I get behind the wheel; I drive to the road, not some arbitrary limit. 17 years of driving, not a single accident and th only time I have ever been caught I was taking my son to A&E.

As for recasts its not something that I would actively seek out but on the other hand if I wouldn't avoid them either and if I did buy one I wouldn't really care, as long as the quality was good. I do nearly all of my GW shopping on Ebay these days and I don't think that I have ever bought any recasts.

 Palindrome wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

While I do it very single time I get behind the wheel; I drive to the road, not some arbitrary limit. 17 years of driving, not a single accident and th only time I have ever been caught I was taking my son to A&E.

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

I hear the same rational for drunk driving. "I am good at driving, I am in control, I have never had an accident or hurt anyone, The DUI limit is arbitrary." Until it DOES happen, and someone dies or is injured due to the drinking... Speed is no different. It is safe until it is not.

Just because you have never murdered anyone due to speeding doesn't mean others don't daily, and doesn't make it safe or acceptable.

Also, there are PP recasts and other companies on eBay. So everyone who justifies it because they madface hate GW is dodging the real issue as recasters hurt the industry as a whole and companies who are not GW. Recasts come in all sizes and all companies not just GW, those are just the easiest to spot because people are so familiar with their distribution process so we know they 'must' be fakes. Others are less easy to be seen but still exist and still hurt those companies.

nkelsch wrote:

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

Yes, there is complete equivelence there.

 Palindrome wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

Yes, there is complete equivelence there.

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

Do your son a favor and don't flee the scene and you might be out before he graduates High school when kill someone from speeding.

Or you could not be selfish and simply not speed. Just because you can break a law once and no one gets hurt doesn't mean you can break the law always and never hurt anyone.

I have no idea why I bothered to read this thread.

S'funny, both times I hit a pedestrian I was going well under the speed limit. And if either of them had died, I STILL would have been charged with their deaths. Speeding does NOT equal killing someone, nor does it automatically equal voluntary manslaughter.

I understand if you have a strong preference for people following the law. That's a reasonable standpoint. If you want to take the point of view that the rules are there for a reason, and once we start picking and choosing which rules to follow, the whole system becomes essentially moot, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. (Some people might still disagree with you, but you'd be arguing a rational point of view.)

The rather extremist version of this you've been championing seems to be a little un-reasonable, however. And claiming that you've NEVER broken the law is so improbable that it's literally incredible. I cannot give that credibility.

nkelsch wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

Yes, there is complete equivelence there.

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

Do your son a favor and don't flee the scene and you might be out before he graduates High school when kill someone from speeding.

Or you could not be selfish and simply not speed. Just because you can break a law once and no one gets hurt doesn't mean you can break the law always and never hurt anyone. Doing something knowingly dangerous to others and can result in people's death means when the result is death due to your actions, you will likely get charged with a similar charge regardless if you are speeding or firing a gun at random. Knowingly putting others at risk and causing a death is all they need to hang their hat on.

Aaaaaannnnd this thread has been derailed me thinks..

Mods, I think this is a good time to lock up

nkelsch wrote:

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

He is quite obviously not me. There is driving to the road and then there is driving dangerously, I do the former.

 Jimsolo wrote:
S'funny, both times I hit a pedestrian I was going well under the speed limit. And if either of them had died, I STILL would have been charged with their deaths. Speeding does NOT equal killing someone, nor does it automatically equal voluntary manslaughter.

I understand if you have a strong preference for people following the law. That's a reasonable standpoint. If you want to take the point of view that the rules are there for a reason, and once we start picking and choosing which rules to follow, the whole system becomes essentially moot, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. (Some people might still disagree with you, but you'd be arguing a rational point of view.)

The rather extremist version of this you've been championing seems to be a little un-reasonable, however. And claiming that you've NEVER broken the law is so improbable that it's literally incredible. I cannot give that credibility.

But speeding means you are rolling the dice of doing an action which puts others at risk and simply hoping it doesn't happen. When it does, if you were found to be breaking the law at the time, that is the difference between a ticket and prison. If you would have killed a jaywalker, and didn't flee the scene and were not otherwise breaking any traffic laws, you are not getting voluntary manslaugter, and you probably will not be charged at all for the death. If you were speeding, get a good lawyer.

And no, I never speed, I do not knowingly break the law. I live in an area where there are literally 1000+ speed camera, red light cameras and other cameras within a few miles of my home and work. We have cameras which give tickets for making a right turn on red without coming to a full and complete stop. I have been rear ended twice for stopping at red lights because people are so prone to rolling through intersections. It is a 75$ insta photo ticket here. We even have cameras on all our school busses for people who do not stop at bus stop signs.

So I have never broken the law, and do everything in my power to not to, unlike someone who not only admits to speeding but champions active disregard of speeding because "I haven't killed anyone yet!" and does so with their children in the car.

I see no difference between the people who say 'Pirating minis is OK because I hate GW' and those who pirate other companies stuff. Wrong is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Palindrome wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

He is quite obviously not me. There is driving to the road and then there is driving dangerously, I do the former.

You don't get to make that call... And basically your 'driving to the road' becomes 'driving dangerously' when you murder someone due to speeding. They are both exactly the same.

Voluntary manslaughter?

Are you sure you don't mean vehicular homicide, or did your friend intend to hurt someone with their car but not kill them?

nkelsch wrote:
They are both exactly the same.

No, they are not. No matter how many times you repeat yourself you will still not be correct. It is afterall very easy to drive dangerously while staying well within the speed limit. The roads at home for instance have a 60mph limit but given that they are single track with limited visability you would be a fool to drive at that speed.

Some people know how to drive far better than others. I know how to drive.

I can assure you that, living in the countryside, the roads around here are there most dangerous on a Sunday when a lot of the drivers around here are doing a good 10-15mph beneath the speedlimit in most cases. Anyone from the UK will know what I mean..

What was this thread about again though? Someone has displayed almost Testify-like levels of misdirection here

 Pacific wrote:


What was this thread about again though?

Recasting, which means its inevitably going to get locked anyway so why hold back?

Where the heck does nkelsch live?!?

Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.

I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.

Damn, 3 pages in already....I'll just reset my watch and see you lot here in what, two days at the next thread on the same topic?

I kind of skimmed through, did I miss the obligatory "Stealing, not stealing" debate or comparing IP infringement to murder or something equally as asinine?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.

I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.

Not all of us can be Lawful Awful.

I was going to say "Draconia", but Orwellianville is better.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.

I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.

Not all of us can be Lawful Awful.

Ha!

I just had to explain that one to my daughter after you made me LOL!

Stranger83 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Games Workshop doesn't fit my idea of a defenseless victim in need of assistance from passerby. It's a poor analogy. GWS has a very large and aggressive legal department and I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.

Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.

So if you see a mugger being beaten up by some vigilantes then you wouldn't report this either? What if they were using baseball bats? What if they had a knife?

If you saw an actual genie magically make a its master a sandwich, would you report it?

Lets stop equating the theoretical loss of a potential sale with actual threat against life and limb. Its not even the same as actually taking an item. The sooner people stop using absurd non-equivocal arguments the sooner others will take anti piracy arguments seriously.

Report it to ebay if it bothers you, but don't expect much response. There have been recasters on there for years.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.

I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.

Not all of us can be Lawful Awful.

Oi, mate!

There's naught wrong with bein' o' the Lawful persuasion!

An' me own armour is shinin' grey, what?!

The Auld Grump

*Translation* I am not at all a fan of GW - but I also think that buying from recasters is a bad thing, you understand?

 azreal13 wrote:
Voluntary manslaughter?

Are you sure you don't mean vehicular homicide, or did your friend intend to hurt someone with their car but not kill them?

Nope... Washington DC.

(3) possessed reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (that is, demonstrated an “abandoned and malignant heart”);

DUI, Drugs, Speeding, Aggressive Driving, disobeying traffic laws (like driving wrong way) all fall under this in DC if you hit and run and someone dies. They show you intended to put others at risk, hurt someone and didn't bother checking them means you intentionally intended in causing their death.

You can fight it, or plea to less, but the laws in DC are 30 years, voluntary manslaughter.

nkelsch wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Voluntary manslaughter?

Are you sure you don't mean vehicular homicide, or did your friend intend to hurt someone with their car but not kill them?

Nope... Washington DC.

(3) possessed reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (that is, demonstrated an “abandoned and malignant heart”);

DUI, Drugs, Speeding, Aggressive Driving, disobeying traffic laws (like driving wrong way) all fall under this in DC if you hit and run and someone dies. They show you intended to put others at risk, hurt someone and didn't bother checking them means you intentionally intended in causing their death.

You can fight it, or plea to less, but the laws in DC are 30 years, voluntary manslaughter.

Voluntary manslaughter is an intentional killing distinguishable from murder by the existence of adequate provocation. This, for example, is the husband returning home to find his wife in bed with his best friend who, in a moment of sudden and intense passion without any time to reflect, kills both of them. He is still guilty but to a lesser degree of culpability.

You're sure you mean voluntary manslaughter?

Ok, so I think we have gone off on a tangent here, lets get back ot, this is not about speeding or buying recasts, simply about should you report someone if you know they are making fake models for a fact (there are plenty of Russian and Chinese sellers on ebay whom are likely selling recasts but you cant be sure). lets widen it a little and say any models, not just GW?

As someone who has been sorely tempted to go down this road, I've done my research, you can widen it to say any models, but with a small selection of some manufacturers as an exception, you'll barely find any.

As one could certainly infer from my posts, I really don't consider it a big enough deal to waste time over (although I appear to be happy spending a longer time period discussing it, I'm a mess of contradictions, me.)

Re-casters will only recast stuff that has merit only, GW, Forgeworld, and PP has miniatures that are in a price range to make copies.

On the Moral side, Those GW casts come close to Brand copies i see here in Asia, i have seen Lego and Gundam toy copies in Vietnam (just in the wrong colors) all made in China.

In Western countries GW use legal powers to shut down re-casters, But in China and Russia, not much is done about IP infringement.

Sirius42 wrote:Part of me posting this here is because I was somewhat shocked at how brazen the seller was about it, admitting in a eBay message it was a copy (unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?). There are a few other sellers floating about of a similar ilk, for example item description 'this is an exquisite reproduction of forgeworld's 'add item name'.

And not just recasts. I've also seen an increase in "copy codexes" being used.

I can't, and won't, condone such things. But I will point out that Games Workshop, to a degree, has brought this upon themselves. High prices combined with a general discontent among the fans have created an environment where no-one seems to care. Not because they think it's legal or justified, but simply because they're not going to lift a finger to help Games Workshop.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Re-casters will only recast stuff that has merit only, GW, Forgeworld, and PP has miniatures that are in a price range to make copies.

On the Moral side, Those GW casts come close to Brand copies i see here in Asia, i have seen Lego and Gundam toy copies in Vietnam (just in the wrong colors) all made in China.

In Western countries GW use legal powers to shut down re-casters, But in China and Russia, not much is done about IP infringement.

And this gives me a funny thought. If the source cannot be controlled, could GW look for angle to mitigate the medium through which the sales are made. I.e. GW approached eBay over the repeated sale of copies.

This wouldn't necessarily mean court case, possibly eBay withdrawing GW product actegories en masse from the site. Highly unlikely but it would certainly be a step toward limiting availability of recasts.

 notprop wrote:

And this gives me a funny thought. If the source cannot be controlled, could GW look for angle to mitigate the medium through which the sales are made. I.e. GW approached eBay over the repeated sale of copies.

This wouldn't necessarily mean court case, possibly eBay withdrawing GW product actegories en masse from the site. Highly unlikely but it would certainly be a step toward limiting availability of recasts.

Slippery slope there - if GW had it's way, all sales of "their" models would be pulled from eBay. New, used - all of it! They greatly despise the secondhand market.

I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.

In a nutshell:

The first-sale doctrine creates a basic exception to the copyright holder's distribution right. Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. Thus, one who buys a copy of a book is entitled to resell it, rent it, give it away, or destroy it. However, the owner of the copy of the book will not be able to make new copies of the book because the first-sale doctrine does not limit copyright owner's reproduction right. The rationale of the doctrine is to prevent the copyright owner from restraining the free alienability of goods. Without the doctrine, a possessor of a copy of a copyrighted work would have to negotiate with the copyright owner every time he wished to dispose of his copy. After the initial transfer of ownership of a legal copy of a copyrighted work, the first-sale doctrine exhausts copyright holder's right to control how ownership of that copy can be disposed of. For this reason, this doctrine is also referred to as "exhaustion rule."

TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Quid pro quo ...

You should report recasters, and make the official and legal holder of the item's design know about the sales.
But, tell them why you did it, and what you want them to do if they want you to continue doing so.

If you have issues with GW (in this case), air a grievance or two.

 Azazelx wrote:
TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.

 Azazelx wrote:
.....

TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Legally acquired being the hook for that US law.

If eBay cannot ensure they are repeatedly allowing/enabling the sale of counterfeit goods (how can you tell with some painted models?) then and they are shown to be unable to police this eBay might choose to pull (I'm guessing?) a minor category or to mitigate their risk. As I say entirely unlikely but a curious possibility.

Ebay is a business and make a fee from each and every sale. That being the case Ebay would never drop the GW category and lose money.

They have no reason to remove the whole GW category because it is no in their interest to do so.

They can remove reported copies but I think that is as far as Ebay will ever go.

There is really no positive angle that I can see for Ebay helping GW out with its problem.

Home taping is killing music!

DVR killed the movie star....

 Skinnereal wrote:
Quid pro quo ...

You should report recasters, and make the official and legal holder of the item's design know about the sales.
But, tell them why you did it, and what you want them to do if they want you to continue doing so.

If you have issues with GW (in this case), air a grievance or two.

 Azazelx wrote:
TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.

And how do you go about proving it? There are few certain ways to identify a recast, you should be sure before throwing accusations of recasting around. Also it would be very difficult to prove a customer *knew* they were buying recasts for the same reason. 'Receiving stolen goods' is used to prosecute people fencing stolen goods in which they clearly are aiding criminal behaviour. It's not there to penalise someone buying a knock off handbag.

All true, but it's not as simple as assuming what you buy off the internet is legit. Just like the bloke in the pub might seems above-board.

If they wanted to prove prior knowledge, there's the email trails and sale posting comments list.

I realise this is almost mandatory on the Internet, but can people please stop using terrible analogies in support of arguments?

Here are a couple of pointers:

1) IP Infringement law is (in most countries) a civil rather than a criminal matter. It is typically used by organisations looking to recover arbitrary damages, often determined by themselves. Comparing it to theft, burglary and mugging - crimes where individuals are affected or even physically hurt - just makes you look silly.
Hint: really the only suitable examples you can make would be other kinds of infringement, such as bootleg movies or music

2) Hyperbole doesn't help matters either. Please consider both sides of your example before posting it. For example:
A) Shooting a gun into a crowd vs not shooting a gun into a crowd - in one of these scenarios people can be hurt, in the other they can't.
B) Driving while breaking the speed limit vs driving while not breaking the speed limit - in both of these scenarios it is still possible for people to be hurt.

The two situations just don't compare.

Law and morals aren't the same thing.

Personally I would go for half price GW/FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt.

 Sirius42 wrote:
Ok, so I think we have gone off on a tangent here, lets get back ot, this is not about speeding or buying recasts, simply about should you report someone if you know they are making fake models for a fact (there are plenty of Russian and Chinese sellers on ebay whom are likely selling recasts but you cant be sure). lets widen it a little and say any models, not just GW?

Maybe grow up and don't ask random strangers on the internet to provide you a moral compass and tell you how strongly you should enforce it. If you feel you should report him, do it. Otherwise don't.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
...Personally I would go for half price GW/FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt...

I've been shown by friends* some Chinese recasts and if it's to be believed then the Chinese or at least one company is now making higher quality GW product at half the price. I suspect that this could be the driving motivator behind Finecast going away so quickly. GWs answer to the problem is to stop selling the product. If that's the reason Forge World is not long for this world...

*Up until recently these guys would not have bought anything like this. However it appears the hurdle has been overcome and they don't care anymore they say they just want a quality product at a reasonable price and that's what they buy.

There is no question that you can make GW models for less cost than they sell them for, their report clearly indicates an operating profit of 73%.

If anything FW has become less expensive (comparatively) than the rest of the range. Plus WH30k is a massive development for them. I'd go so far as to say (guess) FW are doing pretty good.

So purely for selfish reasons counterfeiters can go to hell if their existence even slightly impinges on the possibility that FW might not make something.

 notprop wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Re-casters will only recast stuff that has merit only, GW, Forgeworld, and PP has miniatures that are in a price range to make copies.

On the Moral side, Those GW casts come close to Brand copies i see here in Asia, i have seen Lego and Gundam toy copies in Vietnam (just in the wrong colors) all made in China.

In Western countries GW use legal powers to shut down re-casters, But in China and Russia, not much is done about IP infringement.

And this gives me a funny thought. If the source cannot be controlled, could GW look for angle to mitigate the medium through which the sales are made. I.e. GW approached eBay over the repeated sale of copies.

This wouldn't necessarily mean court case, possibly eBay withdrawing GW product actegories en masse from the site. Highly unlikely but it would certainly be a step toward limiting availability of recasts.

I'm not sure what the legal basis for this would be, the Japanese computer game industry has been trying for years to prevent re-sale of their goods. And that's an industry far more powerful and wealthy than the miniature wargames market.

Aside from the fact that re-casts probably make up the tiniest percentage of ebay sales. I could see how it would be a benefit however for GW, denying the sale of 2nd hand goods would benefit GW a magnitude more than stopping counterfeiters.

True, but the Japanese games companies fall down because private citizens can do what they wish with their possessions. A counterfeiter cannot.

I could easily see a big company dropping a category to avoid a niggling problem if the legal basis of a minor part of their trades was a bit shaky.

 Consul Scipio wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
...Personally I would go for half price GW/FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt...

I've been shown by friends* some Chinese recasts and if it's to be believed then the Chinese or at least one company is now making higher quality GW product at half the price.

This is a not insignificant part of the problem. I've seen a perfect, and I mean perfect, all-resin (so automatically at least part recast!) storm eagle kit - dude pulled it out of the box, pinky swore and all he hadn't even hot water bent anything into shape and it pretty much just fit together straight off.
Now there were some slightly more awful than what I was used to from forgeworld from way back casting blocks attached - but nothing that wouldn't be solved with a few min. work and a decent saw.

If you've ever seen storm eagle build logs - this speaks volumes.

I also own two recast ironclad mkIV dreads - I had FW (legit!) versions, which both looked at least moderately horrible to get up to spec (bubbles, warping, mold shifting - the general lazy QC/casting quality from FW) which I bloody well replaced with chinese recasts at $36 incl. shipping for two (bodies, not including arms); I gave them a quick rinse, removed a few blocks and some flash, and had two nigh-perfect dreads (minus arms, again) in under two hours.

TBH, it doesn't really matter much to me anymore - no GW/FW purchases for more than a year, now - but after having had some experience with Mierce's quality (same price range, I'd say somewhat cheaper even) - I just refuse to pay the ridiculous prices for FW stuff for anything, no matter how much I'd want the kit anymore.
Cheap second hand, sure. Recast, feth, I don't think I'd mind just skipping the extremely disappointing FW legit step TBH.

TL;DR: Yes, the recasters have overtaken FW in cast quality. Insane, but there you are: if you want a good cast - don't go legit. (nb.: not actual advice )

 notprop wrote:
There is no question that you can make GW models for less cost than they sell them for, their report clearly indicates an operating profit of 73%.

If anything FW has become less expensive (comparatively) than the rest of the range. Plus WH30k is a massive development for them. I'd go so far as to say (guess) FW are doing pretty good.

So purely for selfish reasons counterfeiters can go to hell if their existence even slightly impinges on the possibility that FW might not make something.

Hear, hear!

The number one reason that I do not support piracy - if I am willing to use/read/play a product then I also want to support its creator.

For that same reason - I tend to buy from indie companies more often than the bigger names (Paizo and Reaper to the contrary) I want to feel a connection to my collection. (Both Paizo and Reaper act like smaller companies - with the brass of each of them being active in the community.)

The Auld Grump

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Law and morals aren't the same thing.

Personally I would go for half price GW/FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt.

 Sirius42 wrote:
Ok, so I think we have gone off on a tangent here, lets get back ot, this is not about speeding or buying recasts, simply about should you report someone if you know they are making fake models for a fact (there are plenty of Russian and Chinese sellers on ebay whom are likely selling recasts but you cant be sure). lets widen it a little and say any models, not just GW?

Maybe grow up and don't ask random strangers on the internet to provide you a moral compass and tell you how strongly you should enforce it. If you feel you should report him, do it. Otherwise don't.

It wouldn't be the internet without at least one personal jab would it. My apologies if this thread causes you distress, but nobody forced you to post. As for why I've put the thread up, i'm intrigued to hear how others feel on the issue, which seems to be the point of internet forms surely, to discuss things with random strangers?

My friend bought some recast Mechanicus and Elysium pieces and placed a Forgeworld order. The recast pieces were cheaper, cleaner and easier to assemble, with no loss of detail as far as could be seen.

If I was to get back into GW games I'd have no hesitation using them.

I bought several recasts and will not be buying any more. All were poorly cast, with bubbles and deformed pieces, and the resin was very brittle and hard to cut or clean up. I'd rather pay double for genuine FW, although I'd never purchase their large vehicles.

If you don't want to buy GW models then there are plenty of other products. I would never buy re-casts and have reported sellers in the past. Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Theft is theft, no matter your opinions against a company in my opinion.

 Kelly502 wrote:
You should let GW know. Wrong is wrong. I have been at several conventions where I met recasters on site selling fake GW recasts. I bought some, and sent them into GW with all the information I had been able to gather. Of course I didn't let the recasters on to what I did.

Holmes is that you? Good thing we have you on the case, and with enough money to blow on recasts. GW must love you. I am glad you are in this world seriously and without sarcasm unlike the first 3 lines. People of the highest moral fiber balance out those with none.

In all earnestness if you want an actual forge world mini buy from fething forge world. I suspect honestly in some form you knew you could possibly get a non-licensed item when you clicked bid. You want to be for sure you have to pay a premium. You wouldn’t buy a watch from someone say this is a Rolex without some verification, right? You would if you are in the Rolex store and the guy says this is a Rolex. If you do that then you will pay a premium. But if I by my “Rolex” on ebay for 15$ guess what chances are it’s a fake. So either your daft or gullible.

I generally don't have an issue with recasts, in certain circumstances they are at least to me OK.

If someone converted a model and made castings of it for his army, or they need multiples of a specific head/body/weapon option I don't have an issue with that.

If they want to make castings of tank treads to use in scenery or a blown up obstacle etc. That to me is fine.

It's what happens when they decide to sell the army, give it away or if they are recasting specifically for reselling the models.

I've seen recasts of Privateer Press Gargantuans, Battle Engines and Retribution Cavalry being sold/traded. No Colossals or "regular" models though.

As game systems get bigger you will see more recasts. GW is the most visible due to their size and the popularity of the game. When it comes to cost of models many other companies are just as expensive. I think the reason we don't see as many recasts for those companies is the popularity of those games isn't big enough yet.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

 Pacific wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

You really liked the song 'The John Birch Society', didn't you?

(The fact that I can sing that song... says something about my world view....)

The Auld Grump

 Azazelx wrote:

I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.

They've been trying to stamp out sales of new products on eBay and other auction sites since at least 2009, it was one of their attacks on any internet sales that aren't from their own website.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

You really liked the song 'The John Birch Society', didn't you?

(The fact that I can sing that song... says something about my world view....)

The Auld Grump

There are plenty of products out there that have been very careful with not using GW IP, try some of those.

 notprop wrote:


Yeah, I hate counterfeiters that don't have good morals....

OP you would have spent less effort flagging this up to eBay and cc-ing in GW than it would have taken to post here and angry up the natives. I'd do it happily as I'll have no truck with forgery/counterfeit/piracy on any product.

There seems to be a distinct core of cheapness in gaming that will try to justify their behaviour by blaming GW (the victim? ) and their heinous business practices, the chap above that justifies it because of the rules is a real gem.

This is all very much a thin end of the wedge issue. There are rules in society that we all should follow and censure for those that do not. If we excuse this then why stop there; why recast when you can shoplift etc?

I would like to point out that i like counterfeiters that have good morals. And I don't mind people recasting miniatures, but I do have a problem with people shoplifting.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.

Hey there Braniac. Given your smartarse tone, I'm going to suggest that you re-read the exact point what I was replying to. Then you can apologise for the snarky tone and we can start again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
.....

TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Legally acquired being the hook for that US law.

If eBay cannot ensure they are repeatedly allowing/enabling the sale of counterfeit goods (how can you tell with some painted models?) then and they are shown to be unable to police this eBay might choose to pull (I'm guessing?) a minor category or to mitigate their risk. As I say entirely unlikely but a curious possibility.

Please tell me how eBay can "ensure" that about every category of items they sell? Obviously, it's impossible. So using your (flawed) logic they should pretty much pull most categories, amirite?

If you think that the majority, or even a significant number of Warhammer sales on eBay are of recasts, then you're seriously deluded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 derek wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.

They've been trying to stamp out sales of new products on eBay and other auction sites since at least 2009, it was one of their attacks on any internet sales that aren't from their own website.

Thank you sir.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 derek wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.

They've been trying to stamp out sales of new products on eBay and other auction sites since at least 2009, it was one of their attacks on any internet sales that aren't from their own website.

Thank you sir.

In Australia we have a similar set of laws under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010. Clear Title [Part 3-2, Division 1, Subdivision A, 51] (when you buy something, the 'title' of the good or 'right' is given to the consumer as part of the transaction) states that all consumers have the right to resell any goods sold to them unless explicitly stated by the supplier before the transaction that they have only been granted Limited Title (a different kettle of fish). Furthermore, consumers are protected by the Undisturbed Possession of Goods [Part 3-2, Division 1, Subdivision A, 52] which means that such goods cannot be repossessed unless it is leased/hired good (see: Limited Title) or they have not met the terms of the sale, lease or hire of said good.

Furthermore, for goods not sold at auction (BIN on eBay is not classified as an auction item) if they are not of acceptable quality or fit for purpose [or in several other circumstances], can be returned from a refund. This cannot be bypassed by any contract or signage ('no refunds' is considered too broad a statement and therefore misleading and an infringement on consumer rights to which there is a guarantee under Australian Consumer Law). The funny thing is that consumers aren't even allowed to surrender the right to a refund (even if you never claim it, you are nonetheless always entitled to one regardless [within a reasonable period]). These of course don't apply to 'change of mind', and only in occurrences wherein a good would not satisfy one or more of the guarantees.

The Division Of Joy wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

You really liked the song 'The John Birch Society', didn't you?

(The fact that I can sing that song... says something about my world view....)

The Auld Grump

There are plenty of products out there that have been very careful with not using GW IP, try some of those.

At this point I am likely to choose Battleship over anything by GW - and since GW has tried to claim skulls, fur, Roman Numerals, Space Marines, grenade launchers, standard tactical symbols, Michael Moorcock's Chaos star, dark elves and many, many, many more things as their unique IP...

Nah, I think that I will just ignore any advice that you choose to give - because I'm pretty sure that GW is going to run out of words in the dictionary before they run out of IP that they are willing to try to claim.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I will also point out that I have stated, repeatedly, that I do not support piracy - if I think that a GW miniature is over priced then I don't buy it - which is part of the reason that I have not bought any GW figures since a store went out of business and had a sale - so, I will buy Chapterhouse, Kromlech, Raging Heroes, Reaper, Avatars of War, Stonehaven, Cool Mini or Not, Mantic, Heresy, Artizan, Gamezone, heck, even Soda Pop - but I will not buy GW, both for their prices and their attitude of 'we own everything'.

A lot of people in this thread have a lot of "friends" that have "shown them" recasts of GW product. *wink wink nudge nudge.*


Here's a hypothetical for everyone to chew on. What if the recast is of a mini GW no longer sells? Since there's no way for you to give GW money for aforementioned OOP mini - is it still immoral? Or is the recaster just doing everyone a favor by keeping old sculpts on the market?

I consider such models to be similar to abandonware. They might still be protected, but the company doesn't seem to have any interest in them.

What makes matters worse is the fact that many companies are using limited edition models as part of their sales strategy. The question is then, is the fact that they're no longer produced not part of the appeal? After all, that's what's making them limited. So they're "abandoned" as part of a deliberate marketing strategy.

Personally, I'm in favour of keeping such products in circulation by whatever means possible. But then again, I'm probably biased as I'm very strongly against the excessive use of limited edition models we see today.

But from a legal standpoint, as long as the models are protected by law, recasting them is illegal and the reason they were abandoned doesn't matter. Just stating the obvious...

*EDIT*

Whoops, wrong thread... :S

Immoral is something I leave for the local preachers - they are quite well acquainted with immorality. Some have even been charged. That and its place in the "laws of god".

I worry only about the laws of man.

IP infringement isn't "Theft" - yes, it's a technicality, but it's a LEGAL technicality and the RULE of LAW is built around technicalities. IP law is also a hodge-podge mish-mash of clashing issues and in need of a serious enema.

While yes, it's a breach of law, It's a breach of CIVIL law, and not subject to the same penalties as a breach of CRIMINAL law would be. IP theft is NOT a criminal act, but an act of CIVIL disobedience.

I have friends with forged FW models (and they ALSO have real FW models and those fakes were better casts. MY only FW stuff consists of one model (night spinner) and a bunch of turrets, all of which I got 2nd hand. Some of the turrets had bent guns, so I'm in no doubt as to their provenance. )

GW is an evil corporation who probably employs more lawyers than game designers. I neither encourage or discourage recasters from selling their wares, but I still hold that the recasting market is a symptom of a greater overall problem, and that problem involves GW's business practices and pricing. Say what you will, but I certainly won't be going out of my way to help that company with anything let alone making money.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.

Hey there Braniac. Given your smartarse tone, I'm going to suggest that you re-read the exact point what I was replying to. Then you can apologise for the snarky tone and we can start again.

After re-reading what I put, I could have worded that post better, so sorry about that. I should have quoted more than just the bit I did, as it was more relevant to the post your post's post was replying to.
But the point still stands.
I read your post as "I bought something, can sell it on if I want, and GW can do nothing about it.".
What I was referring to was "I bought something, I made recasts of it, and I want to sell that without GW getting involved."

But, I hate bran, so there's that.

 Azazelx wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
.....

TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Legally acquired being the hook for that US law.

If eBay cannot ensure they are repeatedly allowing/enabling the sale of counterfeit goods (how can you tell with some painted models?) then and they are shown to be unable to police this eBay might choose to pull (I'm guessing?) a minor category or to mitigate their risk. As I say entirely unlikely but a curious possibility.

Please tell me how eBay can "ensure" that about every category of items they sell? Obviously, it's impossible. So using your (flawed) logic they should pretty much pull most categories, amirite?

If you think that the majority, or even a significant number of Warhammer sales on eBay are of recasts, then you're seriously deluded.

Hey there Braniac. Given your problem with smartarse tones you might not want to adopt one yourself.

I merely posited an interesting possibility as I saw it. Clearly you didn't comprehend that but there's really no need to get you knickers in a twist but by all means carry on as you wish to.

But to address the point you made, eBay is responsible for all trades that happens on its website - why else would they arbitrate disagreements and impose settlements? It just relys upon complaints being raised and in enough numbers or delivered with enough legal authority then yes I could see categories being dropped.

Most categories are not dropped because of money, however the point at which one category becomes so much of a problem that the costs to manage (or perceived risks) are outweighing the revenue on a category then they might drop it.