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Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 01:53:53


Post by: Totalwar1402


At my club thats pretty much been the established story for a lot of members. Ever since the new codex came out and we had one tau player win the 18 player tournament and another tau player (me) come second.

Would you say thats right or not?

Personally I think some of what they complain about is a little OTT or besides the point. I don't think riptides are that powerful for instance. They don't particularly do anything spectacular for the army like, say, Longstrike in a hammerhead. The only battle where my riptide achieved anything was when it used skyfire to shoot down two vendetta gunships with its ion accelator; which was purely luck. Whilst some rules things like insisting that you should get a cover save against markerlights is silly because, this was never an issue in the older edition and their boosts are basically the same.

I think the army itself is fairly balanced. The reason why myself and the other tau player did so well has more to do with the HQ we took. He put a commander with drone controller in a squad of markerlight drones with the ability that lets you re-roll misses and used that to get mobile super accurate marker lights. Myself, I put shadowsun in a squad of XV8s tripped out with plasma guns and fusion blasters. Using the stealth, shrouded, her 3d6 disengage and the fact that dangerous terrain can basically be ignored it made her great at both soaking up enemy fire and putting out damage whilst avoiding close combat (even then she only just killed Ghasgul with a stand and shoot roll of a 6 ). When I didn't use this tactic in a friendly game vs necrons he essentially won the game handily, with me only literally stealing victory by contesting his objective with 1 guy.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 02:01:35


Post by: Gitsmasher


This again?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 02:03:38


Post by: Blacksails


Yes, they are OP.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 02:14:27


Post by: Murdius Maximus


Definitely OP.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 02:17:34


Post by: EmilCrane


 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I think the army itself is fairly balanced. The reason why myself and the other tau player did so well has more to do with the HQ we took. He put a commander with drone controller in a squad of markerlight drones with the ability that lets you re-roll misses and used that to get mobile super accurate marker lights. Myself, I put shadowsun in a squad of XV8s tripped out with plasma guns and fusion blasters. Using the stealth, shrouded, her 3d6 disengage and the fact that dangerous terrain can basically be ignored it made her great at both soaking up enemy fire and putting out damage whilst avoiding close combat (even then she only just killed Ghasgul with a stand and shoot roll of a 6 ). When I didn't use this tactic in a friendly game vs necrons he essentially won the game handily, with me only literally stealing victory by contesting his objective with 1 guy.


You see all these things?

Yeah, believe it or not other armies can't do that. They don't have options to ignore cover with every gun they have, increase their ballistic skill, shoot then jump back into cover, fire multiple weapons a turn at different targets, snap fire with their whole damn army including vehicles at assaulting units.

For many armies strength 10 AP 1 is a myth, and strength 5 is something you see on specialist weapons, not on basic troops. Most armies have to use the actual walkers rules for their walkers, rather than using MC rules because they're better.

So yes, I'd say Tau are overpowered.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 02:20:42


Post by: dementedwombat


They are the undisputed (well...Eldar can dispute I suppose) kings of shooting/shooting shenanigans in an edition that is focused around shooting.

Eldar are the undisputed (well, demons can dispute) kings of psychic power buff shenanigans/durability in an edition that favors absurd durability.

Tau and Eldar separately both are very strong armies, although I would argue that they don't cross the line into flat out overpowered unless you deliberately build a list that makes it so (insert "polite discussion" on fluffy vs competitive lists and how I shouldn't have to limit my list selection based on my opponent here).

The upper tier of either Tau or Eldar, and pretty much any combination of the two, are indeed cheese wheels of the highest order (especially if you count escalation stuff. That bloody stupid eldar titan breaks the game severely, and to be fair the Tau don't exactly have the best lords of war but they do get non blast strength D on a superheavy flier, so that can be a pain in the butt even if its not game breaking).

You can take solace in one thing though (I guess), the Tau rules are heavily optimized for 6th edition. I'm guessing when 7th hypothetically drops and close combat ends up back as the master of the battlefield like it was in 3rd or 4th (or at least more fairly balanced with shooting like it was in 5th) then Tau will resign their throne of awesomeness and steadily creep back down the tier of power to average or worse.

As someone who has happily got my little blue fish face punched in repeatedly throughout 3rd-5th edition I'm just enjoying my time in the sun while I have it and trying not to make my opponents hate me too much.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 02:20:46


Post by: Rotary


Yes they are, even more so when you stick them behind a aegis defense line in a corner for a 2+ cover.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 04:22:53


Post by: Jayden63


In a world without allies, or data slates, or anything else that isn't found in the Tau codex, Tau are very strong but not OP.

However, add in all that other pay to win stuff and Tau can very quickly jump into the OP territory.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 04:36:13


Post by: MWHistorian


OP? Definitely.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 04:49:24


Post by: Martel732


Compared to what? Gravstars? No. Seer Councils? No. Screamerstars? No.

Meqs? Yes. Orks? Yes.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 05:10:08


Post by: hotsauceman1


OMG DUDE, we get it, you like TAU, stop making so many DAMN topics


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 05:36:39


Post by: Jimsolo


Tau are not OP.

They are, however, easy to learn to play, which leads to faster mastery of the base strategies of the army. This leads to the mistaken belief that they are somehow stronger than other armies, which isn't correct. Experience is a far more telling advantage than any perceived difference in codex strength. A player who has experience with their own army (and experience against Tau) will be just fine. I've lost maybe two games to Tau since the new codex came out? And both of those losses were with armies I had little experience using. With my primary army, I haven't lost to the new Tau once.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 06:41:06


Post by: Kain


 Jimsolo wrote:
Tau are not OP.

They are, however, easy to learn to play, which leads to faster mastery of the base strategies of the army. This leads to the mistaken belief that they are somehow stronger than other armies, which isn't correct. Experience is a far more telling advantage than any perceived difference in codex strength. A player who has experience with their own army (and experience against Tau) will be just fine. I've lost maybe two games to Tau since the new codex came out? And both of those losses were with armies I had little experience using. With my primary army, I haven't lost to the new Tau once.

You can accuse GW of many things.

Competence is not one of them.

If a company as competent Nintendo can't balance every character in super smash brothers, I have zero faith that the pack of brainless mouth breathers running GW has the skill to balance every unit and army in 40k.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 08:03:52


Post by: Boniface


Really, this thread again?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 08:13:34


Post by: BaalSNAFU


Yup. An army that gets to pick and choose which BRB shooting rules to.follow and has an in-codex hard counter option for every single inherent weakness will always be OP.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 09:09:14


Post by: Totalwar1402


Their str5 guns and str10 ap1 guns have always been in the game. Their markerlights which ignored cover and upped blastic skill have also been in the game since at least last edition. There were a lot of topics on how you could NOT make tau a viable army in its old codex despite pathfinders because they were too easy to kill and had to take a devilfish.

By common consensus, tau were an incredibly weak and outdated army during this time which regularly got curb stomped by melee and marine armies. I know because I remember my 3.5 chaos marine army going through them like butter.

Shadowsun has always been able to fire at different targets and this was a battlesuit upgrade in the previous edition. Only two changes were made to that unit. Her stealth ability became a cover save, she could join crisis suits and under 6th could confer that special ability to the squad she joined.

Battlesuits have always been always been able to fire and redeploy. On a small board this rarely ever mattered in older editions. Granted, the distance increased substantially from 6 to 2d6; however this random element, like charging into close combat should technically make using the ability harder not easier.

So I am not sure why the complaints would center around their old rules.



edit - I fully expect that they will allow you to charge from one squad to another like in third and possibly allow an "overwatch" shooting attack by the assaulting unit as well. However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights. Most of their units would have been considered death star under previous editions like 3rd or 4th. 5th was not balanced between shooting and CC. It was a CC edition, except it had Imperial Guard boosted.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 10:16:39


Post by: Breng77


The complaints are not really about the old rules though.

1.) Tau markerlights never full out ignored cover it was 1 light = -1 cover save which is a big difference. If I have say a 2+ cover save now it takes you 2 lights to remove it, before it would have taken 4/

2.) Supporting fire allows markerlights to be used in overwatch to make overwatch devistating, it also removes the ability to eat overwatch with other units for a primary charging unit.

3.) Missile Broadsides were not a thing...3 S10 shots is way worse than tons of S7

4.) Commanders handing out special rules like candy...also a new thing.

Now are Tau OP? IT is about reference point...against other top armies not really, especially with a good amount of terrain.

Against your typical army...yeah they are...especially if terrain is lacking.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 11:45:02


Post by: niv-mizzet


Yes.

I played about half a dozen games with tau, and another few with farsight enclaves. Never came close to losing, and had flawless victories a couple times. (a couple riptides took wounds, but not even a single model of mine actually left the table.)
And this was just typical rolling. Nothing outlandish like ridiculous morale fails on turn 1 or anything like that.

Eventually stopped playing them because of the gigantic difference in model-to-point quality between them and most other armies.

Riptides are the biggest offender there. They have about the right amount of firepower for their point cost, but they should never have been as durable as they are without at least another 50 points added on. Then of course, they're randomly ACTUALLY threatening even when you do get them in melee, just thanks to being a monstrous creature, and the stupidity of the WS chart, meaning that when attacking the usual troop WS of 3-4, they still hit on 4's.

Among all downsides a model could have right now, "crappy WS" is by far the least harmful.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 12:07:19


Post by: Thud


Tau OP?

It's certainly a good army, but it strikes me as weird that they keep getting singled out as the OP army. There's a reason why they don't win tourneys.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 12:08:45


Post by: Blacksails


Thud wrote:
There's a reason why they don't win tourneys.



This is a joke right?

Please me tell me this is a joke.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 12:09:46


Post by: Iron_Captain


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
OMG DUDE, we get it, you like TAU, stop making so many DAMN topics
This. Absolutely this.
And yes, Tau are OP. Very much OP.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 12:19:53


Post by: Thud


 Blacksails wrote:
Thud wrote:
There's a reason why they don't win tourneys.



This is a joke right?

Please me tell me this is a joke.


Not really. Sure, they might win the small, local tourneys, but so do Orks, Dark Angels, and what-have-you.

Take the LVO, for example; not a single Tau army in the top bracket. In Caledonian Uprising, the top Tau primary came in 4th, the next on 16th. Came in 5th at the UK GT.

I can't even think of a single major tournament won by Tau since NOVA.




Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 12:30:49


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights.


The worst army in the game and a shooting MEQ army in an edition that punishes MEQ? Wut?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 12:38:59


Post by: niv-mizzet


Thud wrote:
Tau OP?

It's certainly a good army, but it strikes me as weird that they keep getting singled out as the OP army. There's a reason why they don't win tourneys.



I find that reason to be because "ridiculous combo units between certain allies or certain wargear items that never should have been able to interact" exist.

If you start removing those from the equation, either by house rules or just general "those are too good to use without being TFG" etiquette in your meta, you'll find the Tau near the top of the dogpile.

The existence of a few OP builds that are not Tau is not evidence against the Tau being OP.

I feel confident that I can pick units from the Tau codex blindfolded and win 90% of LGS games.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 12:54:21


Post by: ZultanQ


I use the following logic:

a) an army whose best list can only be beaten by a few other top tier lists is overpowered
b) top Tau lists can only be beaten by a few other top tier lists
c) therefore, tau is overpowered

For example, vanilla marines are considered a middle of the road army, they aren't going to win relevant tournies this edition but they're not as terrible as Orkz. And yet, the best vanilla marine netlist is going to have a hard time dealing with triptide, even under a skilled player, does anybody even debate this?

Overpowered.

Experience does matter, but this game is not chess. Some units are strictly better than other units in their categories. Tau has many of these because of their shooting shenanigans compared to other armies' shooting shenanigans in Warhammer 40k: Rooty Tooty Shooty Edition.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 13:06:16


Post by: Boniface


I'd say that Eldar are more considered OP.

Tau might be too powerful because of the game rules as opposed to their rules, it's hard to quantify though because of the rules being what they are.

I'm aware of the ignoring cover thing. I think drop it back to -1 cover for 1 marker and things would be a lot better.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 13:26:07


Post by: Grumzimus


Heheh again with this....

Yes they are. They're the autowin button incarnate in a gunline.

What really grinds my gears now however (As I've got over my PTTSD) is the fact that these whooores can ally with EVERYONE apart from Nids....

Whereas some of us only get to ally with like 5 guys.

That new chart makes interesting reading. Tau can ally with like 11 guys.... So there's zero penalty for being OP in the shooty.

Knights? sure why not... Orks? Chaos? Sure! chum up braaa.

Each army is meant to have a strength and weakness. Allies could be a good way to limit them a little and allow them to be played more. As opposed to being shunned.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 13:55:29


Post by: Kain


Thud wrote:
Tau OP?

It's certainly a good army, but it strikes me as weird that they keep getting singled out as the OP army. There's a reason why they don't win tourneys.


Of course pure Tau doesn't win tournies, Taudar and ridiculous invincible death stars are still a thing.

Tau, Necrons, Eldar, and Daemons are the big four, sure sometimes they appear with an army outside of the big four grafted onto them, but it's hard to deny that they are the competetive overpowers in the game.

Marines and Guard are also good, but not as good. The GKs seem to be middling overall, Codex: Death Guard with maybe some other stuff on the side also falls into the middle tiers, the Dark Angels are wondering why they always have to be the base that other loyalist MEQs improve off of, and the Tyranids have this mystifyingly low quality book paired with over the top formations.

What about those guys? The SoBs, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, DEldar, and Orks? Yeah they're hanging around down there, one's waiting for a full codex some day, one's a MEQ assault army in an edition that conspires against both MEQs and Assault, one's still rocking a mid-5e codex that is seriously starting to show it's age, one's an aging book that is really hard to play right and is unforgiving of mistakes, and one's still wallowing with a 4e going on 5e book but has a cheerful never say die attitude,

But the big four? Still top dog with most tournies featuring them either alone or combined with something else seeing them placed in most of the top slots, although the glut of imperial only goodies seems set on bringing Imperial armies back up there.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 14:12:02


Post by: Martel732


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Their str5 guns and str10 ap1 guns have always been in the game. Their markerlights which ignored cover and upped blastic skill have also been in the game since at least last edition. There were a lot of topics on how you could NOT make tau a viable army in its old codex despite pathfinders because they were too easy to kill and had to take a devilfish.

By common consensus, tau were an incredibly weak and outdated army during this time which regularly got curb stomped by melee and marine armies. I know because I remember my 3.5 chaos marine army going through them like butter.

Shadowsun has always been able to fire at different targets and this was a battlesuit upgrade in the previous edition. Only two changes were made to that unit. Her stealth ability became a cover save, she could join crisis suits and under 6th could confer that special ability to the squad she joined.

Battlesuits have always been always been able to fire and redeploy. On a small board this rarely ever mattered in older editions. Granted, the distance increased substantially from 6 to 2d6; however this random element, like charging into close combat should technically make using the ability harder not easier.

So I am not sure why the complaints would center around their old rules.



edit - I fully expect that they will allow you to charge from one squad to another like in third and possibly allow an "overwatch" shooting attack by the assaulting unit as well. However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights. Most of their units would have been considered death star under previous editions like 3rd or 4th. 5th was not balanced between shooting and CC. It was a CC edition, except it had Imperial Guard boosted.


5th was not CC. CC had the same problem as 6th: no consolidation into a new combat. So the same kinds of things happened: One squad gets contacted, and the army prepares to shoot the victors.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 14:14:30


Post by: kronk


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
At my club thats pretty much been the established story for a lot of members. Ever since the new codex came out and we had one tau player win the 18 player tournament and another tau player (me) come second.


Maybe they're REALLY good players?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 14:16:26


Post by: Breng77


Martel732 wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Their str5 guns and str10 ap1 guns have always been in the game. Their markerlights which ignored cover and upped blastic skill have also been in the game since at least last edition. There were a lot of topics on how you could NOT make tau a viable army in its old codex despite pathfinders because they were too easy to kill and had to take a devilfish.

By common consensus, tau were an incredibly weak and outdated army during this time which regularly got curb stomped by melee and marine armies. I know because I remember my 3.5 chaos marine army going through them like butter.

Shadowsun has always been able to fire at different targets and this was a battlesuit upgrade in the previous edition. Only two changes were made to that unit. Her stealth ability became a cover save, she could join crisis suits and under 6th could confer that special ability to the squad she joined.

Battlesuits have always been always been able to fire and redeploy. On a small board this rarely ever mattered in older editions. Granted, the distance increased substantially from 6 to 2d6; however this random element, like charging into close combat should technically make using the ability harder not easier.

So I am not sure why the complaints would center around their old rules.



edit - I fully expect that they will allow you to charge from one squad to another like in third and possibly allow an "overwatch" shooting attack by the assaulting unit as well. However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights. Most of their units would have been considered death star under previous editions like 3rd or 4th. 5th was not balanced between shooting and CC. It was a CC edition, except it had Imperial Guard boosted.


5th was not CC. CC had the same problem as 6th: no consolidation into a new combat. So the same kinds of things happened: One squad gets contacted, and the army prepares to shoot the victors.


This Top armies in 5th

IG not CC
Space Wolf Razor mor MIssile Spam Not CC
Grey Knights Not CC (Dreadspam, or Henchman spam, or Paladins which largely shot)


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 15:05:32


Post by: Totalwar1402


The blood angels death company dreads that do hits than generate extra hits.

They're good because they shredded my 4th edition Nid army in CC.

Grey knights with strength 6 power weapons.

When I played 3.5 chaos marines having foot marines with a bolt pistol and chainsword was a massive advantage for regular troops. Not every marine unit used to be an absolute CC beast and dedicated assault trooper.


You can't balance pure assault and shooting.

Either one army gets gunned down, or the other easily closes the distance and massacres you with shocking ease. Which is what happened to most shooting armies during 3rd and 4th edition. Personally I only felt that in 6th with the new charge rules and overwatch traditional CC failed. Simply getting forty chaos marines or genestealers with MC and screaming "banzai!" no longer won you the battle; which is what a lot of previous editions were.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 15:17:10


Post by: Martel732


DC dreads were never used because DC were terrible in 5th. Nids should have shot them with Zoans anyway.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 15:20:04


Post by: Breng77


I think you could balance them (5th was reasonably close, 5th with the Current Vehicle rules as far as Hitting Vehicles in CC, and Hull points actually would have been very good).

The issue with the current game (and the opposite was true prior to 5th ed) is that there are entire factions dedicated to the assault with Dedicated assault units that cannot reasonably get into assault in this edition.

I agree that you should not be able to just run stuff across the table and assault but 6th actually removed some other options (outflanking, vehciles etc.) as a meaningful way of reaching assault with some units.

In 6th if you don't move 12" in your movement phase and are not reasonably durable as well...you cannot assault.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 15:44:58


Post by: Kain


People who think that 5e was a paragon of balance and harmony between assault and shooting must have clearly not played the game with an endless parade of Psyfle dreads and Psycannon Purifiers/Paladins and Psybolt Razor backs, Leaf Blower Guard builds, Dakka Wolves and other such silliness I did.

The Wolves and Grey Knights were counter-assault armies, having enough assault capability to make charging at them after being withered by their shooting a bad idea. Rarely did any high end GK build besides Draigowing have "charge into melee" as it's primary method of dealing damage.

All of this is a hard-line reaction to the complaints of assault being OP in 3e where I think one phoenix lord could dump 50 or so attacks on a squad, consolidate into the next one, annihilate that one, then keep on doing it until your entire army was dead, and every Rhino was filled with a full squad of blood angels who could charge right out of it and squash you.

I don't think the two phases have ever been in balance throughout the history of the game to be perfectly honest.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 15:53:11


Post by: Martel732


Kain is correct.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 15:55:45


Post by: Breng77


I agree, but it was a lot closer than 6th. If you fixed vehicle rules, and added the speed of a lot of todays assaulting units...it would actually have been pretty balanced. 5th screwed assault largely because killing vehicles with assault was difficult.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 16:08:16


Post by: Truth118


I'm certainly not an expert on Tau and I've only fought against them once, but I think the riptide seems to be most of the reason why Tau armies are so OP. Just compare it's abilities to any other unit in the game with roughly the same points value and it's immediately obvious how over-the-top and unbalanced it is. You can take 5 of them in a primary detachment if you want, which is something similar to melting velveeta on a block of cheddar cheese in a bowl of limburger atop a pyre of blue cheese sprinkled with monterey jack.

Take out the riptide and Tau are still very good. Markerlights are a little cheesy, particularly in an edition where cover is vital for survival. Tau would be a little less irritating to fight though, because at least they wouldn't have an invincible MC that can get pretty much all the best USRs in the game, dance around the board and erase entire units from far away. It's less of a game and more of a "Put all of your models away, I win, hurrdurr."

Really satisfying when you kill one though.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 16:15:04


Post by: Kain


Breng77 wrote:
I agree, but it was a lot closer than 6th. If you fixed vehicle rules, and added the speed of a lot of todays assaulting units...it would actually have been pretty balanced. 5th screwed assault largely because killing vehicles with assault was difficult.

The best armies in 5e were as such that even if you got past all their shootings, your tattered remnants would then get punched in the face by Counter-attacking Grey Hunters, All instant death power weapon all the time grey knights who hit before you did, or a gigantic power blob of guardsmen when they weren't running mechvets. And yes, vehicles did make or break your list in 5e, given how few plans made in 6e consider assaulting vehicles worth while over just shooting them if you aren't packing entropic touch/lots of rending/smash/armor bane/haywire grenades even in an edition that's more open to the idea of assaulting vehicles and has given vehicles a substantial shift, I don't think that making vehicles more assaultable would have helped things any.

Shooting kills things more and with less risk, and can often start killing things from turn 1. In 5e, most dedicated assault builds had to be designed to circumvent shooting, usually by deep striking, outflanking, or assault vehicles that could take a punch. And even then, 5e Tyranids were considered bad, Blood Angels never quite got out of the upper-middle percentile competetively, the Chaos Space Marines preferred lines of Obliterators or Predators and special weapons carrying plague marines to get in there and pump dakka, Daemons were an awful, borked army, few people actually used the assault units of the Tau, Eldar, and Vanilla Marines (with the exception of hammernators), and the best dark Eldar builds were the ones that could zip around the board like donkey-caves filling everything with holes via a massive amount of dakka that didn't care about your toughness and/or armor save.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 16:31:23


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Martel732 wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Their str5 guns and str10 ap1 guns have always been in the game. Their markerlights which ignored cover and upped blastic skill have also been in the game since at least last edition. There were a lot of topics on how you could NOT make tau a viable army in its old codex despite pathfinders because they were too easy to kill and had to take a devilfish.

By common consensus, tau were an incredibly weak and outdated army during this time which regularly got curb stomped by melee and marine armies. I know because I remember my 3.5 chaos marine army going through them like butter.

Shadowsun has always been able to fire at different targets and this was a battlesuit upgrade in the previous edition. Only two changes were made to that unit. Her stealth ability became a cover save, she could join crisis suits and under 6th could confer that special ability to the squad she joined.

Battlesuits have always been always been able to fire and redeploy. On a small board this rarely ever mattered in older editions. Granted, the distance increased substantially from 6 to 2d6; however this random element, like charging into close combat should technically make using the ability harder not easier.

So I am not sure why the complaints would center around their old rules.



edit - I fully expect that they will allow you to charge from one squad to another like in third and possibly allow an "overwatch" shooting attack by the assaulting unit as well. However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights. Most of their units would have been considered death star under previous editions like 3rd or 4th. 5th was not balanced between shooting and CC. It was a CC edition, except it had Imperial Guard boosted.


5th was not CC. CC had the same problem as 6th: no consolidation into a new combat. So the same kinds of things happened: One squad gets contacted, and the army prepares to shoot the victors.

The consolidation into new combat was ridiculously broken, especially against armies that were not built for CC. Just thought I'd put that out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Truth118 wrote:
I'm certainly not an expert on Tau and I've only fought against them once, but I think the riptide seems to be most of the reason why Tau armies are so OP. Just compare it's abilities to any other unit in the game with roughly the same points value and it's immediately obvious how over-the-top and unbalanced it is. You can take 5 of them in a primary detachment if you want, which is something similar to melting velveeta on a block of cheddar cheese in a bowl of limburger atop a pyre of blue cheese sprinkled with monterey jack.

Take out the riptide and Tau are still very good. Markerlights are a little cheesy, particularly in an edition where cover is vital for survival. Tau would be a little less irritating to fight though, because at least they wouldn't have an invincible MC that can get pretty much all the best USRs in the game, dance around the board and erase entire units from far away. It's less of a game and more of a "Put all of your models away, I win, hurrdurr."

Really satisfying when you kill one though.

This completely. The only thing other than riptides that have really changed is markerlights going from -1 cover per light to ignore for 2. Take out riptides and tau are still good, just not ridiculously so.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 16:43:48


Post by: BoomWolf


Tau are not OP.
The riptide is not OP.
Broadsides are not OP.

There are 2 issues that makes the codex a problem, and when not chosen its not even serious contender for tournament play.

1-the ion accelerator is a bad fit. an AP2 large blast does not belong in an army that can nurture cover. try a HBC riptide-you will see him as the epitome of "can't kill me, but why bother trying" unit.

2-the HYMP broadsides spew insane dakka per price. try the current incarnation of rail broadsides and you will notice that they never quite cover the costs even if left alone.


Everything else the tau codex can throw at you is either fair, meh, or interesting yet impractical.
Even the all-mighty support commander is rendered rather "why would i bother" once you take away his ion accelerator riptides, and turns to be only good for a specific combo.

Want to go over unit by unit?
Ehtreal-super good, but gives away VP, and squishy.
Commanders-except support commander, none is really impressive. and as covered, he needs ion accelerator riptides. good, but not iron hand chapter master shenanigan good.
Farsight-intersting army, but nothing special.
Shadowsun-sneaky git, but overall just a tank hunter.
Anu'va-super ethreal, but cant hide in squads.
Anu'shi-CC ethreal..."yay"
Darkstrider-cool, but costs too much.
Kroot-annoying buggers, but an easy kill.
Fire warriors-great guns, lousy soldiers.
Devilfish-PASS.
Crisis suits-great damage, not very durable.
Stealth suits-sneaky fellows, but not that armed.
HBC riptide-decent, nothing more.
Sun/razorshark-yea, pass. nothing impressive here.
vespid-getting close, but still not there.
Drone squads-well, they EXIST.
Piranha-annoying buggers. I should get some.
Pathfinders-the source of all tau power, on a GEQ body.
Skyray-good AA, limited ammo. decent overall.
Hammerhead-a nice tank, similar to a LR.
Longstrike-proper cost for the power addition.
Rail broadsides-I tried, I shelved.
Sniper drones-amusing, but you need them big guns in HS.


Easy to see, once you take IA and HYMP away, everything is fixed. (or just nerf them a bit)
Now, just 2 OP guns. you know what it looks like?
Chaos marines. you got the crazy balefalmer, and beyond that your army is medicore/poor.

Now, I wont claim tau are by any strach WEAK, but give the codex a go without these two guns, and you will see yourself having some difficult time against pretty much anything else.
And god save you if an iron hand master comes to greet you.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 17:01:38


Post by: MWHistorian


 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau are not OP.
The riptide is not OP.
Broadsides are not OP.

There are 2 issues that makes the codex a problem, and when not chosen its not even serious contender for tournament play.

1-the ion accelerator is a bad fit. an AP2 large blast does not belong in an army that can nurture cover. try a HBC riptide-you will see him as the epitome of "can't kill me, but why bother trying" unit.

2-the HYMP broadsides spew insane dakka per price. try the current incarnation of rail broadsides and you will notice that they never quite cover the costs even if left alone.


Everything else the tau codex can throw at you is either fair, meh, or interesting yet impractical.
Even the all-mighty support commander is rendered rather "why would i bother" once you take away his ion accelerator riptides, and turns to be only good for a specific combo.

Want to go over unit by unit?
Ehtreal-super good, but gives away VP, and squishy.
Commanders-except support commander, none is really impressive. and as covered, he needs ion accelerator riptides. good, but not iron hand chapter master shenanigan good.
Farsight-intersting army, but nothing special.
Shadowsun-sneaky git, but overall just a tank hunter.
Anu'va-super ethreal, but cant hide in squads.
Anu'shi-CC ethreal..."yay"
Darkstrider-cool, but costs too much.
Kroot-annoying buggers, but an easy kill.
Fire warriors-great guns, lousy soldiers.
Devilfish-PASS.
Crisis suits-great damage, not very durable.
Stealth suits-sneaky fellows, but not that armed.
HBC riptide-decent, nothing more.
Sun/razorshark-yea, pass. nothing impressive here.
vespid-getting close, but still not there.
Drone squads-well, they EXIST.
Piranha-annoying buggers. I should get some.
Pathfinders-the source of all tau power, on a GEQ body.
Skyray-good AA, limited ammo. decent overall.
Hammerhead-a nice tank, similar to a LR.
Longstrike-proper cost for the power addition.
Rail broadsides-I tried, I shelved.
Sniper drones-amusing, but you need them big guns in HS.


Easy to see, once you take IA and HYMP away, everything is fixed. (or just nerf them a bit)
Now, just 2 OP guns. you know what it looks like?
Chaos marines. you got the crazy balefalmer, and beyond that your army is medicore/poor.

Now, I wont claim tau are by any strach WEAK, but give the codex a go without these two guns, and you will see yourself having some difficult time against pretty much anything else.
And god save you if an iron hand master comes to greet you.

That's all well and good but on the table, the army as a whole is OP and obviously so.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 17:03:17


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 MWHistorian wrote:

That's all well and good but on the table, the army as a whole is OP and obviously so.

They really aren't. They work well together is their main strength. If you take out the riptides, this codex is practically identical to the old one.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 21:23:56


Post by: EmilCrane


The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 21:25:04


Post by: Martel732


And the worst part is that the Tau are easier to deal with than Daemons or Eldar.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 21:34:24


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


I started to play Tau the second their codex came out, leaving my 750 points of Space Marines Raptors Chapter in a bin for the rest of eternity. I fell in love with the Tau as they had mechs, and as a Battletech fan from the age of 6 (My older cousing regularly played, and let me play the computer games and card game with him) that was all I needed to fall in love, as the dreadnoughts of the Space Marines were simply not doing it for me.
From the day I started playing Tau they were hit or miss against most armies. I never really seemed to have a solid advantage of any kind against any army, and the codex offered few unit combinations that could stand up to what would become known in 4th and 5th edition as death star units. I never placed in a tournament until I was 19 years old and took second once with my Tau in all of 4th edition. And once lost a third of my army in a single turn to a Cannoness that kept consolidating into new assaults every victory. Then 5th came out.
I was devastated in 5th edition, and convinced that GW hated Tau as Space Marines became more and more ridiculous to deal with and my few feeble tanks could not stand up to the might of Imperial armor. I slowly learned the worth of broadsides, buying three of them, but as they were only T4 they usually got blasted off the table fast. When Nids and orcs received their codex’s I thought it was the end for my Tau.
With only 2 blast templates in their entire codex the Tau 4th ed codex was drastically outmatched by hordes, and if I prepared for hordes I was destroyed by armor. My army developed a mechanized feel and started to consist of fewer and fewer crisis suits, the reason I chose the army in the first place. Winning became a pipe dream as it became clear playing Tau was playing on hard mode. Despite this I did win first in a single tournament and second in two more, mostly due to tactics, and the incompetence or lack of tactical skill of my opponents as opposed to the worth of my units. I started to rely on manipulating the rules to win, surrounding transports with drones before wrecking it to kill the units inside, ramming, and tank shocking like crazy to make use of my only anti horde weapons, flamers, more effectively. When the Space Wolf dex dropped I almost quit the hobby. Not only did I lose every game, but I never survived past turn 3. 3 local players started Space Wolves armies, and they won every game they played. I started a guard army just to be able to put up a fight, but even then I barely managed to tie games, and never came close to winning a tournament. Than after a long 4 years 6th happened.
I was delighted in the new rules seeing myself become more and more powerful with every game. I started shredding enemy vehicles with incredible efficiency. I picked up 6 more broadsides as my S10 AP1 weapons where now the best anti tank weapons in the game. But slowly the tanks started to disappear and horde armies took their place. I had nothing that could compete, I started flooding the table with Firewarriors hoping to do something, anything to win one game, but no matter what I did they always made it to melee, and I always lost.
When we got our new codex I was delighted, my crisis suits were useful again, and new units like the riptide and missilesides gave me a fighting chance again. We even got new blast templates in the Ion Head and Ion Accelerator, but something horrible started to happen. My once noble and diverse force started to dwindle to two units Riptides and Broadsides, and the rest of my army became obsolete. After investing much money into these units I finally won a tournament beating out Chaos Space marines allied to Daemons, Dark Eldar, and Eldar for first. But the victories weren’t easy, at 2000 points I barely won every game, but the one against Dark Eldar, losing both riptides to melee assaults by Daemons in one game and contesting my way to victory with only a handful of Firewarriors left on the board, and being decimated by Shadow Weaver tanks and Wave serpents in my most challenging game, pulling a victory out of nowhere in the final second using a pair of piranha that counted as scoring to nab an objective worth three points as my last act.
I was convinced after this game that 6th edition was more about how willing you were to use Wave Serpents and FMC’s than anything, as my huge investment of currency in the newest, and most effective models had only won me slight victories. That was until I played a 500 point tournament in which I practically won by de fault for bringing a Riptide. It was then I realized what power the new unit possessed, and how little fun they were to face.
It was at this moment I decided to no longer use Riptides, or Broadsides. I miss having the distinction of playing the game on hard mode, but I have to say it was fun to win a few games, Do I think Tau are overpowered? Yes, in some ways they are the Grey Knights of 6th, and in others they are one trick ponies. To win against all the shenanigans in 6th a Tau player must either exercise tactical brilliance, or bring an army that is so boring to play you hardly understand why you enjoy the game anymore. My new army is noncompetitive and I know I cannot defeat Serpent spam, or take on flying Daemons, but I never had fun playing those lists anyway, I remember how it felt to lose to them before I had the Riptides, before I went broke buying Broadsides, I wanted to quit. And I refuse to do that to my fellow gamers. So no I will not win tournaments at all costs anymore, I will try to outthink, and maybe just outplay these sorts of players, and probably lose doing it. But hey at least, or rather hopefully I will start to have some fun again, because frankly I miss the days when the worst army in the game could beat the best if its owner knew what he was doing and executed his plan perfectly.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 21:53:02


Post by: thepowerfulwill


They CAN be op yes. BUT if you dont cheese out the list, they are really not OP at all. I saw both orks and non-cultist spam non-heldrake chaos marines beat them the other day.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 22:00:49


Post by: BaalSNAFU


 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.


This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 22:04:06


Post by: Martel732


First off, there is nothing wrong at all with asking to see a codex.

Secondly, reserves can be punished any number of ways. I personally don't like reserves except maybe for fast scoring units.

Flyers are a mixed bag. Most fliers in the game now are not that good, so Tau knocking them out doesn't mean much.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/25 22:14:13


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


BaalSNAFU wrote:
 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.


This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.


I wish my Markerlights survived past turn 2, they never do, and turn 2 I usually have only a few left. I get that people fear them to no end, but they have never really done me any good, at least not in the long term, as people obliterate them, and the 5+ armor and lack of stealth on the pathfinders makes them pretty easy to wipe.

Buffmanders are a more reliable option, and I can understand hatred of them, but considering they are more expensive than a Farseer and do basically the same thing, but only for one unit, and they have to be in the unit, I don't see them as unfair.

If there was something I would change about the dex it would be to take twin-linked away from high-yield missile pods, and drop Riptides to T5 down from T6. I feel like those changes would make the whole army less overpowered and more middle of the road, but then we would have to do something about Wave Serpents because those units are Tau's only hope against those things.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 04:13:10


Post by: davethepak


No.

Have not lost a single game to the new tau yet.

Most players still don't realize how to beat them, of course, I play tau (and have through all of 5th as well, thank you very much) so I know how to beat them.

and yes, this thread.....again.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 08:51:11


Post by: Macok


BaalSNAFU wrote:
 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.


This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.
I can't decide if this is funny or cringe-worthy when I hear that coming from SM players.

SM's of different flavors are and always have been armies that break a ton of rules. You're just used to it by now and take it as common because there are so many copies of them.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 08:51:39


Post by: soomemafia


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights.


I'm not sure if I can comprehend this... We are talking about Blood Angels and Grey Knights here, right?
How are they even remotely relevant to this when a single Riptide can easily blast off a squad of MEQs in a single turn?

After Tau shooting there are maybe two Assault Marines left to charge them and Overwatch will kill those off with no problem.
Against CC armies Tau are extremely OP since you can rip any infantry apart with Overwatch. Your movement also means that getting I to CC will take a lot of time.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 08:58:35


Post by: Sasori


I really can't take anyone seriously who believes the Riptide is not OP. Even if the rest of the army is fairly balanced, there is no way someone is being objective by calling the Riptide balanced.

In my honest opinion, the under costed riptide, and the Buffcommander are really what cause the Tau codex to be over the top.

The Riptides IA should be more expensive, and it really should have a 3+ save. It's the 2+ That really puts it over the top.

We know the issues with the Buffcommander already.

I think if those two issues were solved, Tau would not have near as much hate directed at them.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 09:06:40


Post by: soomemafia


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The blood angels death company dreads that do hits than generate extra hits.
They're good because they shredded my 4th edition Nid army in CC.
Grey knights with strength 6 power weapons.


And.... What? Have you actually played against BA/GK ever? Because it truly sounds like you haven't.
Yes, but the DC dread will have to wait single whole turn in which you can withdraw out of assault range and wipe it out with all the heavy weaponry and spammed S7.

And you can't justify the BA being good by saving that they once beat Tyranids D


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 09:36:36


Post by: BaalSNAFU


 Macok wrote:
BaalSNAFU wrote:
 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.


This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.
I can't decide if this is funny or cringe-worthy when I hear that coming from SM players.

SM's of different flavors are and always have been armies that break a ton of rules. You're just used to it by now and take it as common because there are so many copies of them.

Is this the part where you BAWWW about ATSKNF? Well that part is followed up by me informing you (because you've obviously never played as SM) that ATSKNF is one of the most overrated rules in the game. Period. Auto rally doesn't mean squat when the unit has been wiped, which is what Tau and Eldar do with ease. Tell me chief, how many other rules do 6th ed SM break? You give me a list, then we'll compare that to the dozen or so Tau offenses. Hell, I'll just list the significant ones and my list will still be twice as long.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 09:43:31


Post by: Spetulhu


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:

That's all well and good but on the table, the army as a whole is OP and obviously so.


They really aren't. They work well together is their main strength.


Exactly so - the Tau rely on this unit buffing that unit. A proper board where only some big hitters can get LOS helps a lot, and when you start picking them apart their effectiveness immediately drops by a lot. Don't waste fire on Riptides or battlesuits until you've crippled their support. I've not lost to my mate's Tau yet - my SoB might lose half their models but when he has no Pathfinders, Firewarriors or other scoring units left all I need do is keep one Sister alive to score. Sure, he's not the greatest or cheesiest General but hey, SoB... ;-)

edit: The most common mistake people seem to make is attacking the hardest Tau units first. A Riptide takes a lot of shots to down, a battlesuit not so many but both can do the irritating jump-for-cover in the Assault Phase. Shots toward them are shots not put into the guys that buff them with Markerlights.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 10:27:36


Post by: Dunklezahn


BaalSNAFU wrote:

Is this the part where you BAWWW about ATSKNF? Well that part is followed up by me informing you (because you've obviously never played as SM) that ATSKNF is one of the most overrated rules in the game. Period. Auto rally doesn't mean squat when the unit has been wiped, which is what Tau and Eldar do with ease.


It must be strange playing in a world where your opponents OCD means that unless they can wipe out an entire unit they don't fire. There is no way this excuse will ever hold water. If you opponent is never causing break tests and wiping out whole units or causing no casualties at all then you live in a very strange world. Break tests are a very important part of the game and have no bearing on marines who aren't hugging their board edge.

The OP needs to use the search function more, this thread comes up like clockwork and the answer is always the same, the Tau aren't OP, Tau armies that spam the undercosted Riptide, Buffmander and the not too good but still very potent Broadside teams are one of the more powerful armies lists in the game right now.
Without markerlight support even Riptides lose a lot of their teeth, they aren't weak by any means but with 1/6 shots fails to even fire, 1/3 chance to wound themselves, mediocre BS and not ignoring cover they don't actually do that much damage. It's a 1/3 chance to hit and an average scatter distance that means more often than not you won't even hit the area of the board you put the blasts hole over.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 10:45:16


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


I do always find this argument odd: "Tau aren't overpowered, they just have blah and blah and blah that make them more powerful than other armies". I don't have a lot of experience against Tau because they aren't common in my local meta... but saying they aren't overpowered they just have overpowered options doesn't really make sense.

It's like saying a Corvette is no faster than a Prius.... if you jam the Corvette's throttle so it can't open all the way.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 11:05:28


Post by: Dunklezahn


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I do always find this argument odd: "Tau aren't overpowered, they just have blah and blah and blah that make them more powerful than other armies". I don't have a lot of experience against Tau because they aren't common in my local meta... but saying they aren't overpowered they just have overpowered options doesn't really make sense.

It's like saying a Corvette is no faster than a Prius.... if you jam the Corvette's throttle so it can't open all the way.


then allow me to explain the difference as I see it, it's best explained with the old saying:

All Apples are Fruit but not all Fruit are Apples.

In this case Riptides, Buffmanders and Broadsides are the the Apples and the Tau codex as a whole is the Fruit.

"Tau are OP" as a statement implies the entire codex is OP and that all Fruit are Apples.

It also leads to silly situations where 6 squads of Firewarriors with 3 Squads of Vespid lead by an Ethereal are OP because "Tau are OP". It's lazy, inaccurate shorthand that assumes all Tau players are using cookie cutter tourney lists.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 11:08:34


Post by: Zande4



 soomemafia wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The blood angels death company dreads that do hits than generate extra hits.
They're good because they shredded my 4th edition Nid army in CC.
Grey knights with strength 6 power weapons.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights.


And.... What? Have you actually played against BA/GK ever? Because it truly sounds like you haven't.
Yes, but the DC dread will have to wait single whole turn in which you can withdraw out of assault range and wipe it out with all the heavy weaponry and spammed S7.

And you can't justify the BA being good by saving that they once Beatles Tyranids D


If the title wasn't a good enough indication, then what you quoted should be. He's trolling.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 11:09:46


Post by: soomemafia


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I do always find this argument odd: "Tau aren't overpowered, they just have blah and blah and blah that make them more powerful than other armies". I don't have a lot of experience against Tau because they aren't common in my local meta... but saying they aren't overpowered they just have overpowered options doesn't really make sense.

It's like saying a Corvette is no faster than a Prius.... if you jam the Corvette's throttle so it can't open all the way.


This.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dunklezahn wrote:

Without markerlight support even Riptides lose a lot of their teeth, they aren't weak by any means but with 1/6 shots fails to even fire, 1/3 chance to wound themselves, mediocre BS and not ignoring cover they don't actually do that much damage. It's a 1/3 chance to hit and an average scatter distance that means more often than not you won't even hit the area of the board you put the blasts hole over.


Somehow you seem to be missing the fact that Tau do have markerlights.
Every single faction in this game has it's flaws. Tau just doesn't have to care about it. They can ignore every single of their weaknesses. Thus the OP-ism.

"Medicore BS and not ignoring cover"? Seriously? They improve their BS and they do ignore cover.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 11:32:52


Post by: Spetulhu


 soomemafia wrote:


Somehow you seem to be missing the fact that Tau do have markerlights.


Which is why you kill the Markerlights first instead of pouring all fire into the biggest target. When facing marines it's proper to take out the big scary Vindicators first because they cause all their damage on their own. When facing Tau you must think smaller, like the soft blue fish guys in their thin armors. Even if you don't wipe out every squad you'll cause break tests and some will run away. No Markerlight hits, no buffs for the Riptide.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 11:35:31


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Dunklezahn wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I do always find this argument odd: "Tau aren't overpowered, they just have blah and blah and blah that make them more powerful than other armies". I don't have a lot of experience against Tau because they aren't common in my local meta... but saying they aren't overpowered they just have overpowered options doesn't really make sense.

It's like saying a Corvette is no faster than a Prius.... if you jam the Corvette's throttle so it can't open all the way.


then allow me to explain the difference as I see it, it's best explained with the old saying:

All Apples are Fruit but not all Fruit are Apples.

In this case Riptides, Buffmanders and Broadsides are the the Apples and the Tau codex as a whole is the Fruit.

"Tau are OP" as a statement implies the entire codex is OP and that all Fruit are Apples.

It also leads to silly situations where 6 squads of Firewarriors with 3 Squads of Vespid lead by an Ethereal are OP because "Tau are OP". It's lazy, inaccurate shorthand that assumes all Tau players are using cookie cutter tourney lists.
So basically the difference is that just because you can make an overpowered army from the codex you feel that doesn't make the codex overpowered.

You didn't really need the fruit analogy, you could have just said that (I know I know, I used a car analogy, sorry, but my analogy was just a sentence tacked on at the end, lol).

Personally, IMO, if you want to self neuter than that's fine, but overpowered options that lead to winning or losing a game make an overpowered army.

The best you could convince me of is saying that the Tau codex is unbalanced, and that imbalance is on the side of mid to overpowered (compared to, say, the 'nid codex, which is unbalanced on the side of mid to underpowered).

But like I said, I don't know a lot about Tau as they aren't common in my meta so I haven't even bothered reading their current codex. I was just commenting on the odd statement that keeps coming up "Tau aren't overpowered they just have more powerful options over and above other armies", lol.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 11:39:31


Post by: Dunklezahn


 soomemafia wrote:


Somehow you seem to be missing the fact that Tau do have markerlights.
Every single faction in this game has it's flaws. Tau just doesn't have to care about it. They can ignore every single of their weaknesses. Thus the OP-ism.


 Dunklezahn wrote:

Without markerlight support...


I did say, pathfinders are comically easy to kill, can't really move and fire and have a 30"(?) range, where are these untouchable markerlights you think they have out of interest?

 soomemafia wrote:

"Medicore BS and not ignoring cover"? Seriously? They improve their BS and they do ignore cover.


No, markerlight hits can allow them to do this, kill/avoid the markerlights and they in fact cannot do either of those things. If you are allowing the Tau player to place markerlights where he pleases without retaliation the whole game then it's no wonder you find them an unassailable foe.

I noticed you avoided commenting the Apples and Fruit point. That's one ignore and one failure to read my post, I'm happy to continue having the conversation but please show me the courtesy I show you when replying.




The Fruit analogy was just how I was taught that kind of reasoning at school, it stuck with me

The thing is I can make many, many Tau armies that are not overpowered, thus the statement "Tau are OP" cannot be correct. My theoretical Fire Warrior/Vespid army is "Tau" but not OP. You cannot assume everyone is making the cookie cutter tourney lists. I'll defend anyone's right to say Riptides or Wave Serpents or whatever are OP, not keen as I am of the term, but to say an entire race is OP, it's simply not accurate.

If you play in a scene where people are going to make the most powerful force available for their army you could perhaps say it but we'd have to have that specific piece of information first and even then it would only be applicable for your area.

Edit: Skink Replied so I added rather than making a new post.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 13:07:27


Post by: Martel732


OP options are what make a codex OP. This is the standard convention. Every broken codex in the history of GW has had non-broken choices. Nit picking in this manner by boiling it down to specific units is a meaningless convention. That being said, I'm not sure how close to the top mono-Tau even are anymore. It seems like you are trying to seem smarter than the rest of the room or find a way to look down your nose at those of us concerned about game balance. Not helpful.

Also, given the state of assault in 6th ed, I'd say that Tau are more efficacious than marines across the board, since they don't waste points on assault tech that doesn't help. I know I'd trade tac marines for sniper Kroot any day of the week.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 13:59:00


Post by: Dunklezahn


Martel732 wrote:
OP options are what make a codex OP. This is the standard convention. Every broken codex in the history of GW has had non-broken choices. Nit picking in this manner by boiling it down to specific units is a meaningless convention. That being said, I'm not sure how close to the top mono-Tau even are anymore. It seems like you are trying to seem smarter than the rest of the room or find a way to look down your nose at those of us concerned about game balance. Not helpful.


And you assume malice and superiority where there is none. I'm not looking down my nose at anyone, simply stating the fact that assuming everyone plays the same Tau list is wrong and that not all fruit are apples. I go out of my way to state how certain units are stronger and when used as the core create a stronger force, that alone does far more for addressing balance than echoing the cry that "Tau are OP!" will *ever* do.
Please refrain from trying to attack me in order to invalidate my opinion, it's A) Not permitted by site rules B) not helpful to the discussion

Fire Warriors are Tau units, Vespid are Tau units, Krootox are Tau units, "Tau" are not OP. Riptides are too good, Buffmanders are too, for brevity, Broadsides are too good. That is not nitpicking, it's addressing the issue with the level of distinction necessary to make sense of the problem at hand rather than making broad, sweeping, kneejerk statements that have no use in describing the situation.

If I make a pizza and it has mushrooms on it I don't hate the taste of pizza, I hate mushrooms. One of those statements is an accurate assessment of the situation, one of them is not.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:09:24


Post by: Makumba


If you are allowing the Tau player to place markerlights where he pleases without retaliation the whole game then it's no wonder you find them an unassailable foe.

I play IG . Could you tell me how to remove marker light tau units fast enough and what should I do if am going second .


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:15:38


Post by: Backfire


Martel732 wrote:

5th was not CC. CC had the same problem as 6th: no consolidation into a new combat. So the same kinds of things happened: One squad gets contacted, and the army prepares to shoot the victors.


5th was CC when you played 4th edition armies against each other under 5th edition ruleset. When new, shooty 5th edition Codices like IG and SW began to rule the roost, the meta changed. But for example, Orks easily steamrolled 4th edition armies in assault early in 5th.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:25:08


Post by: Dunklezahn


Makumba wrote:

I play IG . Could you tell me how to remove marker light tau units fast enough and what should I do if am going second .


That's a tactics conversation it's probably best served by a separate thread in the Tactics sub-forum rather than sidetracking this thread, sure you'd be able to get plenty of idea's from the IG playerbase to help though.

The average IG force in my experience usually comes armed with more than enough firepower to silence a few markerlights and without those markerlights Tau firepower drops off pretty badly outside of a few specialist lists like the Farsightbomb/star that get by just fine without.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:27:17


Post by: Totalwar1402


Still not getting what makes a riptide good.

You can get more shots from fire warriors and crisis suits with plasma weapons. Better anti tank in a hammerhead and its nova reactor is a liability with a 1 in 3 chance of losing a wound. The str 7 ap2 large blast is good; but then IG can get this in command squads for 35pts A hammerhead with an ion cannon manages a similar trick for an AP2 large blast and its cheaper.

Its tough, but its inv save is low and it can never claim a cover save.Most CC units will kill it for all it being a monstrous creature in the same sense a tomb spider is a monstrous creature.

When using it, the thing has never came across as a stellar unit except as an impromteu AA gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makumba wrote:
If you are allowing the Tau player to place markerlights where he pleases without retaliation the whole game then it's no wonder you find them an unassailable foe.

I play IG . Could you tell me how to remove marker light tau units fast enough and what should I do if am going second .


Shell them. At ld7 or 8 you are likely to pin them or make them runaway.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:32:20


Post by: Dunklezahn


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Still not getting what makes a riptide good.

You can get more shots from fire warriors and crisis suits with plasma weapons. Better anti tank in a hammerhead and its nova reactor is a liability with a 1 in 3 chance of losing a wound. The str 7 ap2 large blast is good; but then IG can get this in command squads for 35pts A hammerhead with an ion cannon manages a similar trick for an AP2 large blast and its cheaper.

Its tough, but its inv save is low and it can never claim a cover save.Most CC units will kill it for all it being a monstrous creature in the same sense a tomb spider is a monstrous creature.

When using it, the thing has never came across as a stellar unit except as an impromteu AA gun.


Markerlights. A team of 8 pathfinders will on average score enough hits to turn it into a BS5 cover ignoring large blast. It will still fail to fire once per game thanks to Get's Hot, but with the right support it's nasty. Take that marklight support away however and it's still plenty tough for it's points but the damage isn't anything to write home about for more cost than a Leman Russ.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:32:34


Post by: Martel732


Backfire wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

5th was not CC. CC had the same problem as 6th: no consolidation into a new combat. So the same kinds of things happened: One squad gets contacted, and the army prepares to shoot the victors.


5th was CC when you played 4th edition armies against each other under 5th edition ruleset. When new, shooty 5th edition Codices like IG and SW began to rule the roost, the meta changed. But for example, Orks easily steamrolled 4th edition armies in assault early in 5th.


That means that 5th edition was a shooting meta once the 5th edition codices were rolled out. Not a CC meta. You just showed that 4th edition was CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dunklezahn wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
OP options are what make a codex OP. This is the standard convention. Every broken codex in the history of GW has had non-broken choices. Nit picking in this manner by boiling it down to specific units is a meaningless convention. That being said, I'm not sure how close to the top mono-Tau even are anymore. It seems like you are trying to seem smarter than the rest of the room or find a way to look down your nose at those of us concerned about game balance. Not helpful.


And you assume malice and superiority where there is none. I'm not looking down my nose at anyone, simply stating the fact that assuming everyone plays the same Tau list is wrong and that not all fruit are apples. I go out of my way to state how certain units are stronger and when used as the core create a stronger force, that alone does far more for addressing balance than echoing the cry that "Tau are OP!" will *ever* do.
Please refrain from trying to attack me in order to invalidate my opinion, it's A) Not permitted by site rules B) not helpful to the discussion

Fire Warriors are Tau units, Vespid are Tau units, Krootox are Tau units, "Tau" are not OP. Riptides are too good, Buffmanders are too, for brevity, Broadsides are too good. That is not nitpicking, it's addressing the issue with the level of distinction necessary to make sense of the problem at hand rather than making broad, sweeping, kneejerk statements that have no use in describing the situation.

If I make a pizza and it has mushrooms on it I don't hate the taste of pizza, I hate mushrooms. One of those statements is an accurate assessment of the situation, one of them is not.


Fair enough, but I've never seen a Vespid fielded. Ever. As far as I'm concerned, Codex: Tau IS Codex: Riptide, because that's what anyone who wants to do well is going to take.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:53:14


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


Makumba wrote:
If you are allowing the Tau player to place markerlights where he pleases without retaliation the whole game then it's no wonder you find them an unassailable foe.

I play IG . Could you tell me how to remove marker light tau units fast enough and what should I do if am going second .

Step one: Buy a Colossus Siege Mortar, Hell Hound, Lemon Russ Eradicator, any unit capable of giving the Fire on my Target! Order
Step two: profit.

I have never had pathfinders at all past turn one against a guard player. They all die first turn without fail. Guard have so many insane ignores cover options it is crazy. The only reason I would say Tau are better at that is because if your opponent does not prioritize pathfinders, which they should, they can give AP2 weapons ignores cover, which Guard can not. That and the Buffmander which can give one gun the rule for a minimum cost of 100 points.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 14:55:18


Post by: Makumba


Step one: Buy a Colossus Siege Mortar,

FW is not accepted here.

And hellhounds won't help me against eldar or marines. to take one I would have to drop a lemman russ , but then I don't know what to do with the left overs. I could take a naked vet squad , but that is just free first blood.


Fair enough, but I've never seen a Vespid fielded. Ever. As far as I'm concerned, Codex: Tau IS Codex: Riptide, because that's what anyone who wants to do well is going to take.

This. Last big tournament I went to had 22 people using tau as primary , ally or formation . Not a single of those armies had vespids or krotox , but all had riptides and broadsides . And before someone says that is tournaments , we play the exact same list outside of tournaments here. No one has the cash to have normal list , a bad list , a FW list and an escalation list.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:01:27


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


It is in the 5th ed codex under heavy support options as an alternative to a Basilisk...


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:01:42


Post by: Iron_Captain


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I started to play Tau the second their codex came out, leaving my 750 points of Space Marines Raptors Chapter in a bin for the rest of eternity. I fell in love with the Tau as they had mechs, and as a Battletech fan from the age of 6 (My older cousing regularly played, and let me play the computer games and card game with him) that was all I needed to fall in love, as the dreadnoughts of the Space Marines were simply not doing it for me.
From the day I started playing Tau they were hit or miss against most armies. I never really seemed to have a solid advantage of any kind against any army, and the codex offered few unit combinations that could stand up to what would become known in 4th and 5th edition as death star units. I never placed in a tournament until I was 19 years old and took second once with my Tau in all of 4th edition. And once lost a third of my army in a single turn to a Cannoness that kept consolidating into new assaults every victory. Then 5th came out.
I was devastated in 5th edition, and convinced that GW hated Tau as Space Marines became more and more ridiculous to deal with and my few feeble tanks could not stand up to the might of Imperial armor. I slowly learned the worth of broadsides, buying three of them, but as they were only T4 they usually got blasted off the table fast. When Nids and orcs received their codex’s I thought it was the end for my Tau.
With only 2 blast templates in their entire codex the Tau 4th ed codex was drastically outmatched by hordes, and if I prepared for hordes I was destroyed by armor. My army developed a mechanized feel and started to consist of fewer and fewer crisis suits, the reason I chose the army in the first place. Winning became a pipe dream as it became clear playing Tau was playing on hard mode. Despite this I did win first in a single tournament and second in two more, mostly due to tactics, and the incompetence or lack of tactical skill of my opponents as opposed to the worth of my units. I started to rely on manipulating the rules to win, surrounding transports with drones before wrecking it to kill the units inside, ramming, and tank shocking like crazy to make use of my only anti horde weapons, flamers, more effectively. When the Space Wolf dex dropped I almost quit the hobby. Not only did I lose every game, but I never survived past turn 3. 3 local players started Space Wolves armies, and they won every game they played. I started a guard army just to be able to put up a fight, but even then I barely managed to tie games, and never came close to winning a tournament. Than after a long 4 years 6th happened.
I was delighted in the new rules seeing myself become more and more powerful with every game. I started shredding enemy vehicles with incredible efficiency. I picked up 6 more broadsides as my S10 AP1 weapons where now the best anti tank weapons in the game. But slowly the tanks started to disappear and horde armies took their place. I had nothing that could compete, I started flooding the table with Firewarriors hoping to do something, anything to win one game, but no matter what I did they always made it to melee, and I always lost.
When we got our new codex I was delighted, my crisis suits were useful again, and new units like the riptide and missilesides gave me a fighting chance again. We even got new blast templates in the Ion Head and Ion Accelerator, but something horrible started to happen. My once noble and diverse force started to dwindle to two units Riptides and Broadsides, and the rest of my army became obsolete. After investing much money into these units I finally won a tournament beating out Chaos Space marines allied to Daemons, Dark Eldar, and Eldar for first. But the victories weren’t easy, at 2000 points I barely won every game, but the one against Dark Eldar, losing both riptides to melee assaults by Daemons in one game and contesting my way to victory with only a handful of Firewarriors left on the board, and being decimated by Shadow Weaver tanks and Wave serpents in my most challenging game, pulling a victory out of nowhere in the final second using a pair of piranha that counted as scoring to nab an objective worth three points as my last act.
I was convinced after this game that 6th edition was more about how willing you were to use Wave Serpents and FMC’s than anything, as my huge investment of currency in the newest, and most effective models had only won me slight victories. That was until I played a 500 point tournament in which I practically won by de fault for bringing a Riptide. It was then I realized what power the new unit possessed, and how little fun they were to face.
It was at this moment I decided to no longer use Riptides, or Broadsides. I miss having the distinction of playing the game on hard mode, but I have to say it was fun to win a few games, Do I think Tau are overpowered? Yes, in some ways they are the Grey Knights of 6th, and in others they are one trick ponies. To win against all the shenanigans in 6th a Tau player must either exercise tactical brilliance, or bring an army that is so boring to play you hardly understand why you enjoy the game anymore. My new army is noncompetitive and I know I cannot defeat Serpent spam, or take on flying Daemons, but I never had fun playing those lists anyway, I remember how it felt to lose to them before I had the Riptides, before I went broke buying Broadsides, I wanted to quit. And I refuse to do that to my fellow gamers. So no I will not win tournaments at all costs anymore, I will try to outthink, and maybe just outplay these sorts of players, and probably lose doing it. But hey at least, or rather hopefully I will start to have some fun again, because frankly I miss the days when the worst army in the game could beat the best if its owner knew what he was doing and executed his plan perfectly.

Spoiler:


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:07:08


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I started to play Tau the second their codex came out, leaving my 750 points of Space Marines Raptors Chapter in a bin for the rest of eternity. I fell in love with the Tau as they had mechs, and as a Battletech fan from the age of 6 (My older cousing regularly played, and let me play the computer games and card game with him) that was all I needed to fall in love, as the dreadnoughts of the Space Marines were simply not doing it for me.
From the day I started playing Tau they were hit or miss against most armies. I never really seemed to have a solid advantage of any kind against any army, and the codex offered few unit combinations that could stand up to what would become known in 4th and 5th edition as death star units. I never placed in a tournament until I was 19 years old and took second once with my Tau in all of 4th edition. And once lost a third of my army in a single turn to a Cannoness that kept consolidating into new assaults every victory. Then 5th came out.
I was devastated in 5th edition, and convinced that GW hated Tau as Space Marines became more and more ridiculous to deal with and my few feeble tanks could not stand up to the might of Imperial armor. I slowly learned the worth of broadsides, buying three of them, but as they were only T4 they usually got blasted off the table fast. When Nids and orcs received their codex’s I thought it was the end for my Tau.
With only 2 blast templates in their entire codex the Tau 4th ed codex was drastically outmatched by hordes, and if I prepared for hordes I was destroyed by armor. My army developed a mechanized feel and started to consist of fewer and fewer crisis suits, the reason I chose the army in the first place. Winning became a pipe dream as it became clear playing Tau was playing on hard mode. Despite this I did win first in a single tournament and second in two more, mostly due to tactics, and the incompetence or lack of tactical skill of my opponents as opposed to the worth of my units. I started to rely on manipulating the rules to win, surrounding transports with drones before wrecking it to kill the units inside, ramming, and tank shocking like crazy to make use of my only anti horde weapons, flamers, more effectively. When the Space Wolf dex dropped I almost quit the hobby. Not only did I lose every game, but I never survived past turn 3. 3 local players started Space Wolves armies, and they won every game they played. I started a guard army just to be able to put up a fight, but even then I barely managed to tie games, and never came close to winning a tournament. Than after a long 4 years 6th happened.
I was delighted in the new rules seeing myself become more and more powerful with every game. I started shredding enemy vehicles with incredible efficiency. I picked up 6 more broadsides as my S10 AP1 weapons where now the best anti tank weapons in the game. But slowly the tanks started to disappear and horde armies took their place. I had nothing that could compete, I started flooding the table with Firewarriors hoping to do something, anything to win one game, but no matter what I did they always made it to melee, and I always lost.
When we got our new codex I was delighted, my crisis suits were useful again, and new units like the riptide and missilesides gave me a fighting chance again. We even got new blast templates in the Ion Head and Ion Accelerator, but something horrible started to happen. My once noble and diverse force started to dwindle to two units Riptides and Broadsides, and the rest of my army became obsolete. After investing much money into these units I finally won a tournament beating out Chaos Space marines allied to Daemons, Dark Eldar, and Eldar for first. But the victories weren’t easy, at 2000 points I barely won every game, but the one against Dark Eldar, losing both riptides to melee assaults by Daemons in one game and contesting my way to victory with only a handful of Firewarriors left on the board, and being decimated by Shadow Weaver tanks and Wave serpents in my most challenging game, pulling a victory out of nowhere in the final second using a pair of piranha that counted as scoring to nab an objective worth three points as my last act.
I was convinced after this game that 6th edition was more about how willing you were to use Wave Serpents and FMC’s than anything, as my huge investment of currency in the newest, and most effective models had only won me slight victories. That was until I played a 500 point tournament in which I practically won by de fault for bringing a Riptide. It was then I realized what power the new unit possessed, and how little fun they were to face.
It was at this moment I decided to no longer use Riptides, or Broadsides. I miss having the distinction of playing the game on hard mode, but I have to say it was fun to win a few games, Do I think Tau are overpowered? Yes, in some ways they are the Grey Knights of 6th, and in others they are one trick ponies. To win against all the shenanigans in 6th a Tau player must either exercise tactical brilliance, or bring an army that is so boring to play you hardly understand why you enjoy the game anymore. My new army is noncompetitive and I know I cannot defeat Serpent spam, or take on flying Daemons, but I never had fun playing those lists anyway, I remember how it felt to lose to them before I had the Riptides, before I went broke buying Broadsides, I wanted to quit. And I refuse to do that to my fellow gamers. So no I will not win tournaments at all costs anymore, I will try to outthink, and maybe just outplay these sorts of players, and probably lose doing it. But hey at least, or rather hopefully I will start to have some fun again, because frankly I miss the days when the worst army in the game could beat the best if its owner knew what he was doing and executed his plan perfectly.

Spoiler:


Do you sense its power?!


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:22:57


Post by: Makumba


Still not getting what makes a riptide good.

skyfire and interceptor on same model . being +2sv and having an inv save . Being jump infantry . A crissis suit takes a helldrake to the face , then gets flamed and a unit of them will be half dead. the Side laughs at ap 3 weapons.

The str 7 ap2 large blast is good; but then IG can get this in command squads for 35pts

with lower T, no save , no inv , no drones , no bufffmander attached and this being the HQ slot , being hunted for slay the warlord , more then one of the 2 to 4 riptides.


Shell them. At ld7 or 8 you are likely to pin them or make them runaway.

The tau I play against are stubborn . With either etheral, buffmander and eldar HQ or etheral buffmander and farsight HQ. I could of course try to take 3 mortars , hope that the tau player won't go first and then have a chance to pin one of his marker light units . But I still have to play against tau with just one unit of markerlights , unless they are ally.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:27:03


Post by: Co'tor Shas


An overcharged ion accelerator is just an AP2 battlecannon that's heavy instead of or. and gets hot. just thought I'd put that out there.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:30:55


Post by: Dunklezahn


Martel732 wrote:

Fair enough, but I've never seen a Vespid fielded. Ever. As far as I'm concerned, Codex: Tau IS Codex: Riptide, because that's what anyone who wants to do well is going to take.


Makumba wrote:

This. Last big tournament I went to had 22 people using tau as primary , ally or formation . Not a single of those armies had vespids or krotox , but all had riptides and broadsides . And before someone says that is tournaments , we play the exact same list outside of tournaments here. No one has the cash to have normal list , a bad list , a FW list and an escalation list.


That's fine, that's your meta love it or hate it, but that is not the whole game, they are still in the Tau codex whether you personally see them fielded or not.
Here on Dakka you are part of a global community and must accept there are people playing the game differently to you, in environs where Codex Tau means Firewarriors and Stealth suits and Drone Snipers and Hammerheads and even Vespids. Calling the whole codex flatly and broadly OP simply will not cut it as a descriptive. *You* have chosen to associate "Tau Army" with Riptides and Broadsides and O'Vessa-stars but the codex is full of so much more and you cannot discount that simply because your meta doesn't use them.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:32:38


Post by: Martel732


I'd say the overall meta doesn't use them, either. But mono Tau have already dropped out of the competitive scene to a great degree, so I'm not really concerned either way.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:33:16


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


Makumba wrote:
Still not getting what makes a riptide good.

skyfire and interceptor on same model . being +2sv and having an inv save . Being jump infantry . A crissis suit takes a helldrake to the face , then gets flamed and a unit of them will be half dead. the Side laughs at ap 3 weapons.

The str 7 ap2 large blast is good; but then IG can get this in command squads for 35pts

with lower T, no save , no inv , no drones , no bufffmander attached and this being the HQ slot , being hunted for slay the warlord , more then one of the 2 to 4 riptides.


Shell them. At ld7 or 8 you are likely to pin them or make them runaway.

The tau I play against are stubborn . With either etheral, buffmander and eldar HQ or etheral buffmander and farsight HQ. I could of course try to take 3 mortars , hope that the tau player won't go first and then have a chance to pin one of his marker light units . But I still have to play against tau with just one unit of markerlights , unless they are ally.


The guard I play against are blob armies consisted of 30 man blobs with commissars and krack grenades. They also have 20 man blobs with Lascannon behind an Aegis Line supported, by a company command squad with a Lascannon, and several Colossus Artillery tanks. I never have the dakka to kill his troops, deal with the Siege Mortars, and erase the lascannon. That and he frequently supports them by those plasma cannon Leman Russ, and Manticore. Every battle I have with him is a struggle. He often wipes me. I sometimes beat him. We have both found that Lasgun fire can be the easiest way of dropping my Riptides... The sheer weight of dice is often too much to handle.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:41:01


Post by: Makumba


So you play tailored anti tau lists with FW units, that would lose all their troops to any chaos lists . I can't use FW units and we don't tailor our lists.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 15:44:30


Post by: Martel732


It's always interesting to get the complete story when people have these kinds of problems. Quit setting up games with people ahead of time where they know what you are going to be playing. That's step 1.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:00:51


Post by: akaean


Makumba wrote:
So you play tailored anti tau lists with FW units, that would lose all their troops to any chaos lists . I can't use FW units and we don't tailor our lists.

The Colossus is a codex artillery piece. Its right there in your codex on page 53. I think you must be confused because Games Workshop does not make the model for it and Forgeworld does. But the fact remains that the Colossus is not a Forgeworld unit because the COLOSSUS DOES NOT USE FORGEWORLD RULES

Its also absolutely bizarre how you are asserting that the list IG list is "tailored against tau". Looking at what he listed its practically tailored against Chaos Marines at least. Maybe he'd have trouble with Demons, but the list looks excellent for battling everything from Space Marines to Tyranids and apparently Tau as well.

OzTeg8ndPwRfl wrote:
Blobs with Commissars, Las Cannons, and Krak Grenades
Aegis Defense Line
Colossus
Manticore
Leman Russ Executioner


If anything, I would say this type of build for Guard is best suited to taking out Space Marines, whether they be Chaos, or Loyalist. The Colossus ignores cover and punches through 3+ saves, Hordes of Infantry huddled behind an Aegis is a Hallmark of 6th Edition Imperial Guard, Horde Armies to mitigate the Heldrake's Damage output, and a 4+ cover save against most things from the Aegis Line. The Executioner tank shreds heavy infantry, and can do well vs monster's as well. And a Power Blob w/ Krak Grenades and supported by a Lord Commissar can still out grind most close combat units (especially after shooting and overwatch), although it is no match for a deathstar obviously.

I understand that fighting against Tau can be frustrated, but geeze. look over what you are writing about. He was describing a pretty clearly all comer's Imperial Guard List, and describing how that list fought against his Tau- and he is not using any forge world rules at all.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:04:30


Post by: hotsauceman1


Tau are frusterating, They get extra movement, they can fire two weapons. Interceptor on EVERYTHING


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:37:59


Post by: Kain


Makumba wrote:
So you play tailored anti tau lists with FW units, that would lose all their troops to any chaos lists . I can't use FW units and we don't tailor our lists.


What he mentioned:

Colossus tanks (Codex)

Company command squads (Codex)

Platoons (Codex)

Executioners (Codex)

Manticore (Codex)

Commissars, only one of the most iconic aspects of the Imperial Guard, no biggie (Codex).

All of these aren't too out of place in a standard guard TAC list, nor is the combination mentioned by him.

About the only thing he said that doesn't make sense is lasguns being good at killing 6 wound, T6, 2+ save models that often have FNP and vastly outrange lasguns.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:44:45


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


They have 5 wounds, and if 40 guard fire with first rank fire second rank fire at one riptide, that amounts to 120 dice. 60 hit, 10 wound. on average. And this does not include their lascannon... it is just stupid devastating. He hides his tanks behind the guard which are in turn behind the defense line, so I can't get close enough to use melta, and I am glancing him on 5's and they get a 4+ cover save... it is hard to beat. Especially considering those 30 man guard blobs are intended to take down monstrous creatures like my riptides, and my broadsides get wiped by the plasma tanks so fast it makes me sad. Guard are one of the better matches for Tau in this edition from what I have seen. Guard and Daemons... I hate Daemons... Invulnerable saves on everything and they always get to melee... Takes a lot of work to beat them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a 220 point model better have T6, a 2+ 5++, and FNP... that is a lot of points to drop on a single guy with BS3 and WS2.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:49:28


Post by: Martel732


I still say MCs should not have 2+ armor saves. They should be capped at 3+.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:50:40


Post by: Kain


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
They have 5 wounds, and if 40 guard fire with first rank fire second rank fire at one riptide, that amounts to 120 dice. 60 hit, 10 wound. on average. And this does not include their lascannon... it is just stupid devastating. He hides his tanks behind the guard which are in turn behind the defense line, so I can't get close enough to use melta, and I am glancing him on 5's and they get a 4+ cover save... it is hard to beat. Especially considering those 30 man guard blobs are intended to take down monstrous creatures like my riptides, and my broadsides get wiped by the plasma tanks so fast it makes me sad. Guard are one of the better matches for Tau in this edition from what I have seen. Guard and Daemons... I hate Daemons... Invulnerable saves on everything and they always get to melee... Takes a lot of work to beat them.

150 shots from 50 guardsmen (assuming you get within 12'' by some miracle, like your opponent having an IQ somewhere between a creationist and a particularly dull witted rock)

75 will hit.

Only a sixth of these wound.

12.5 wounds.

Only a sixth of these get by the armor save.

2.08333333333 wounds.

Only 2/3rds of this get by feel no pain.

1.38888888889 wounds.




Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:52:08


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
They have 5 wounds, and if 40 guard fire with first rank fire second rank fire at one riptide, that amounts to 120 dice. 60 hit, 10 wound. on average. And this does not include their lascannon... it is just stupid devastating.


10 wounds after 2+ armour and FNP is 1.111... wounds. Your 40 Guardsmen who are somehow magically all in Rapid Fire range of a Riptide and Order range simultaneously did a little more than a fifth of that Riptide's wounds.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 16:55:28


Post by: Martel732


And that is why MC's shouldn't have 2+ armor. It's multplicatively more useful for them than for T4 models.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 17:16:07


Post by: Kain


Martel732 wrote:
And that is why MC's shouldn't have 2+ armor. It's multplicatively more useful for them than for T4 models.


What is dumb is them rocking a great invulnerable save and FNP in addition to having a bucket load of wounds that can only really by ID'd by the rapidly shrinking number of weapons that dish out instant death without needing to roll for it while still being able to reliably get a wound in the first place.

You don't see anyone complaining about the Tyrannofex or Armored Shell Tyrants (before they were removed to force you to join the flyrant master race as part of a nerfing of literally any other tyranid HQ option).

What makes the Riptide so aggravating is that it has a pinpoint accurate large blast that instant deaths most infantry models and ignores their saves unless they're lucky enough to have an invulnerable save or have T5+ and FNP. This gun has incredible range on a highly maneuverable model that has five wounds, standard MC toughness, a two plus armor save, a five plus invulnerable save it can turn into a three plus save, the option for ablative wounds in missile drones, and the option for FNP. All for a price that is reasonably affordable, whereas say, Be'Lakor breaks the bank at 350 points.

A monstrous creature with a 2+ save and a lot of wounds isn't particularly problematic. Especially as there are a boat-load of options to spam enough AP2 to reliably gut most MCs these days, with the major limitation being range.

Hell, even a fortuned wraithknight with a shield or conceal isn't too awful. But that's mostly because the Wraith-knight has comparatively dinkier guns and isn't quite as good at getting out of combats it doesn't want to be in. The Riptide though can keep away from most AP2+ save for bikes and lascannons, and if it can't flee, it can just nova it's shield and laugh all day long because a 3++ on a five wound model with FNP is still capable of weathering most onslaughts. If it's a Taudar list, it may even have fortune/that other reroll your saves power from divination because actually taking wounds is for suckers.

To my knowledge, the only other MCs that have access to invulnerable saves of that caliber without needing to hope for a good BRB roll are Tzeentch Daemons, and Tzeentch Daemon shooting is curtailed by the mediocrity of their psyker power options.




Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 17:30:15


Post by: L0rdF1end


Tau are overpowered because other armies had to look at stupidness like Screamerstar to even get close to a Tau gunline.
Little else could do it apart from Drop Pods and then you still potentially had to deal with Intercept.

Someone in play testing really liked Tau which is unfortunate because now 40k is a little on the broken side to the point of trying to include super heavies to fix glaring obvious mistakes.

Now all of the other codices suffer because of 2 over powered dex's.

I still like the challenge though. I have a game against a friend this week and I'll take my Nids to his Tau just for funz.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 17:58:58


Post by: Co'tor Shas


If we got rid of overwatch altogether, and got rid of riptides, would tau be OP in your mind?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:18:57


Post by: Kain


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If we got rid of overwatch altogether, and got rid of riptides, would tau be OP in your mind?

I dislike paying for cover saves only for BS5 scrubs to ignore them and gun down my troops with a ridiculous bucket load of S5 shots and jetpacking plasma/melta shots while any attempt to get into the air gets no-sold by dozens if not more than a hundred S7 AP4 hits.

Or having to deal with AV13 tanks that get a 4+ cover save because they moved a millimeter this turn.

Or a farsight bomb dropping right in my face.

Or the soul crushing monstrosity that is Taudar.

Now mind you, even Taudar isn't as bad as 7e Daemons of Chaos were in WHFB, but it's easily the new Grey Knights.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:22:36


Post by: Totalwar1402


Being able to do that with the ion accelerator isn't part of the riptides stats. In order to be able to have a riptide that ignores cover and is super accurate you need to add a further 100pt squad of very vulnerable pathfinders to the cost of the unit. These have to remain stationary to fire, need good placement to get line of sight to match that of the riptide and because they have a shorter range than the ion accelerator at only 36'', half that of the ion. This is close enough for the pathfinder squad to be neutralized or pinned by light small arms fire. Only losing two guys forces a morale check and at ld8 they have a good chance of failing assuming they even have a shasui. So its not a perfect fit and a few things have to come together in order to be able to do that.

Basically, synergy where you have to have an entire vulnerable unit dedicated to support should give you powerful benefits greater than simply saving the points to buy more killing units. You're paying more than half the value of another riptide in order to simply boost the abilities of a single unit; which is a gamble based on that units sheer vulnerability to even modest counter fire.

Plus, again, Tau battlesuits have always been able to fire two weapons. This is not new so complaining about a rule that was around when the army was considered borderline unusable make no sense.


Feel no pain is an expensive 35 pts upgrade and not part of the basic riptides stats.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:23:29


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 Kain wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If we got rid of overwatch altogether, and got rid of riptides, would tau be OP in your mind?

I dislike paying for cover saves only for BS5 scrubs to ignore them and gun down my troops with a ridiculous bucket load of S5 shots and jetpacking plasma/melta shots while any attempt to get into the air gets no-sold by dozens if not more than a hundred S7 AP4 hits.

Or having to deal with AV13 tanks that get a 4+ cover save because they moved a millimeter this turn.

Or a farsight bomb dropping right in my face.

Or the soul crushing monstrosity that is Taudar.

Now mind you, even Taudar isn't as bad as 7e Daemons of Chaos were in WHFB, but it's easily the new Grey Knights.

Lets see.... almost nothing we couldn't do with the old codex other than the taudar, but that's not a problem with the tau codex, that's a problem with the eldar codex and the rulebook.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:25:46


Post by: hotsauceman1


One Word, Tetras. Those things are evil. They seem Impossible to kill for some reason. I mean, put them behind a ruin where you can still SEE the unit your shooting those ML only need to hit.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:28:13


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Well, tretas wer defetly overpowerd with the 4 shot markerlight and free disruption pod . They we evil fun. They did get nerfed though, ML changed from heavy 4 to heavy 2 TL, loss of free disruption pod, and I think they are more expensive now.
It's also not part of the tau codex, but still.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:29:53


Post by: Kain


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Being able to do that with the ion accelerator isn't part of the riptides stats. In order to be able to have a riptide that ignores cover and is super accurate you need to add a further 100pt squad of very vulnerable pathfinders to the cost of the unit. These have to remain stationary to fire, need good placement to get line of sight to match that of the riptide and because they have a shorter range than the ion accelerator at only 36'', half that of the ion. This is close enough for the pathfinder squad to be neutralized or pinned by light small arms fire. Only losing two guys forces a morale check and at ld8 they have a good chance of failing assuming they even have a shasui. So its not a perfect fit and a few things have to come together in order to be able to do that.

Basically, synergy where you have to have an entire vulnerable unit dedicated to support should give you powerful benefits greater than simply saving the points to buy more killing units. You're paying more than half the value of another riptide in order to simply boost the abilities of a single unit; which is a gamble based on that units sheer vulnerability to even modest counter fire.

Plus, again, Tau battlesuits have always been able to fire two weapons. This is not new so complaining about a rule that was around when the army was considered borderline unusable make no sense.


Pathfinders are far from the only unit with markerlights, and in Taudar, markerlights aren't as needed to increase accuracy because they get guide for free.

Drone squads are expendable and tough enough with shield drones, Tetras spew out markerlights all over the place, Remoras give you flying markerlights,

And again, neither the Tau nor the Eldar alone are the most griped about army, it's Taudar. But far be it from me to question the Gue'ves'a public relations defence cadre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If we got rid of overwatch altogether, and got rid of riptides, would tau be OP in your mind?

I dislike paying for cover saves only for BS5 scrubs to ignore them and gun down my troops with a ridiculous bucket load of S5 shots and jetpacking plasma/melta shots while any attempt to get into the air gets no-sold by dozens if not more than a hundred S7 AP4 hits.

Or having to deal with AV13 tanks that get a 4+ cover save because they moved a millimeter this turn.

Or a farsight bomb dropping right in my face.

Or the soul crushing monstrosity that is Taudar.

Now mind you, even Taudar isn't as bad as 7e Daemons of Chaos were in WHFB, but it's easily the new Grey Knights.

Lets see.... almost nothing we couldn't do with the old codex other than the taudar, but that's not a problem with the tau codex, that's a problem with the eldar codex and the rulebook.

Pfft, as if Old Tau could dump out several dozen shots from a cheap as chips squad of fire-warriors.

Or had Ethereals who did something other than give your enemy an easy thing to headshot and run your entire army off the table.

But again, the GLORIOUS GUE'VES'A PR DEFENCE CADRE must never be questioned;




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, tretas wer defetly overpowerd with the 4 shot markerlight and free disruption pod . They we evil fun. They did get nerfed though, ML changed from heavy 4 to heavy 2 TL, loss of free disruption pod, and I think they are more expensive now.
It's also not part of the tau codex, but still.

Lol no, they're cheaper now.

Three of them are only twelve points away from being as cheap as a pathfinder and devilfish.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:33:35


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Taudar is not a problem with tau, but a problem with the rulebook and eldar.
Remoras and tetras are FW.
Drones are more expensive than FWs or Pathfinders, in fact they cost as much as SMs in the drone teams.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:35:29


Post by: Mr Morden


Like Eldar - the Tau are not OP - several units are and make other units in their own codex laughable.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:36:13


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 Mr Morden wrote:
Like Eldar - the Tau are not OP - several units are and make other units in their own codex laughable.


Exactly.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:38:24


Post by: Zande4


 Mr Morden wrote:
Like Eldar - the Tau are not OP - several units are and make other units in their own codex laughable.



If a codex has several units that are OP then that codex is also OP.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:40:40


Post by: Kain


test removed.


Reds8n


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:45:45


Post by: Totalwar1402


Aren't the tetra and remora forge world units?

Markerlight drones are mobile but they're more expensive than a pathfinder and only BS2. So you need more of them in order to compensate for reduced accuracy. They also can't claim cover due to being on flying bases. With the limited range this still leaves them vulnerable to counter fire.

This can of course be circumvented by giving a tau commander a drone controller. However, this can mean putting all of your eggs in one basket and its a very particular niche strategy to use. The assumption is always that most marker lights should come from footbound pathfinders. Hence why they sell models for plastic pathfinders and the only way to get access to a single marker drone model is if you buy a stealth team (might be some in the newer broadside box I think). This only came through digging through the rules and isn't about the army being inherently in-balanced or markerlights being inherently inbalanced.

Incidently, I have countered this markerlight drone spam before. Basically by focusing fire on the drone commander unit until the commander died. This broke a lot of the synergy of the rival tau players army as his remaining drones couldn't reliably support the rest of his army.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 18:56:47


Post by: Totalwar1402


I don't play taudar, this topic regards the tau (singular), at my club the allies, fortification and escalation matrix's are frowned on and banned in official games. They're not accepted as part of the official rules. Nor is use of forge world models. To all intents and purposes, the use of such models is illegal and they are not part of the tau 6th edition codex.

Nothing I said in my post was about taudar or that combo. So quoting yourself bitching about the taudar is nonsensical as I was discussing markerlights.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 19:05:20


Post by: Kain


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I don't play taudar, this topic regards the tau (singular), at my club the allies, fortification and escalation matrix's are frowned on and banned in official games. They're not accepted as part of the official rules. Nor is use of forge world models. To all intents and purposes, the use of such models is illegal and they are not part of the tau 6th edition codex.

Nothing I said in my post was about taudar or that combo. So quoting yourself bitching about the taudar is nonsensical as I was discussing markerlights.


Then your club is playing with arbitrary house-rules and is about as relevant to a discussion of why the Tau are part of the problem with current 40k as Dawn of War 2 Retribution.

You are dismissed.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 19:17:54


Post by: Totalwar1402


I am sorry, you've clearly misread the title of my OP.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 19:22:26


Post by: Mr Morden


 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I don't play taudar, this topic regards the tau (singular), at my club the allies, fortification and escalation matrix's are frowned on and banned in official games. They're not accepted as part of the official rules. Nor is use of forge world models. To all intents and purposes, the use of such models is illegal and they are not part of the tau 6th edition codex.

Nothing I said in my post was about taudar or that combo. So quoting yourself bitching about the taudar is nonsensical as I was discussing markerlights.



So you have all banned lots of things that you see as broken or simply don't like (no matter how actually official or benign they are) but are happy to use all the "broken" Codex units - well that sounds like fun..................I wonder why people think the Tau are OP - maybe because you have helped make any in game problems worse and of coruse as Tau player are quite happy to enjoy this?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 19:31:13


Post by: Martel732


If the Tau player can bubblewrap skillfully, markerlights become very difficult for TAC marine lists to eliminate in time. By in time, I mean before the Tau have crippled your list.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 19:34:45


Post by: Totalwar1402


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I don't play taudar, this topic regards the tau (singular), at my club the allies, fortification and escalation matrix's are frowned on and banned in official games. They're not accepted as part of the official rules. Nor is use of forge world models. To all intents and purposes, the use of such models is illegal and they are not part of the tau 6th edition codex.

Nothing I said in my post was about taudar or that combo. So quoting yourself bitching about the taudar is nonsensical as I was discussing markerlights.



So you have all banned lots of things that you see as broken or simply don't like (no matter how actually official or benign they are) but are happy to use all the "broken" Codex units - well that sounds like fun..................I wonder why people think the Tau are OP - maybe because you have helped make any in game problems worse and of coruse as Tau player are quite happy to enjoy this?


I do not make the tournie rules or define the general culture at my wargames club. They have their reasons for disliking the allies system, forge world models and escalation supplements; a lot of which has to do with a dislike of GW as a company. Nor do I particularly ascribe to their opinion; but a distinction needs to be made between the core tau army and the unrelated things like allies.

If you read my OP these people do argue that the tau are over powered. However, banning an entire army would be going too far; even for them. They just don't like it and have an obnoxious, in your face attitude if you are playing tau or suggest you would like to use a wraithknight in your dark eldar army for instance. Its bizarre because they've been asking me pay to enter the new tournie for weeks on the basis of "you came second last time; you could win this time"; but still bitch and complain about me using tau.

Frankly most of them play horus heresy now anyway.

Sorry, if I am paying to enter a tournie for prizes or doing a themed campaign where I have an incentive to win why on earth would I not build my list to win within the constraints?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/26 19:45:12


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 Kain wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Taudar is not a problem with tau, but a problem with the rulebook and eldar.
Remoras and tetras are FW.
Drones are more expensive than FWs or Pathfinders, in fact they cost as much as SMs in the drone teams.

Persistent are you?

If the Tau are so awful like you say, they wouldn't be an integral part of the single most dominating army in the meta now would they?

Taudar is as powerful as it is because it is mixing the Tau and the Eldar. If the Tau were so bad, the dominating list would just be Eldar or Eldyanden, why weaken themselves with the Tau?

Pretending it's all the Eldar or the rulebook's fault is seriously dumb and you should feel dumb just for suggesting that's the case. The real explanation for why the combo is so broken is simple. Everyone in GW is criminally incompetent and would be sent out in the streets to live in a cardboard box in a less pants on head idiotic company. Hence you get codex after codex made by people who cannot into internal or external balance.

And IDGAF if something is forgeworld or not, it's a legal and valid option for the army just as Knights are legal and valid things for a Guard player to throw at you or how someone is perfectly entitled to show up to a game with Aetaeos'Rau'Keres.

But of course, the Gue'ves'a PR defence brigade won't hear a word against their precious army.

I never said that the tau codex was bad. What I said was that it is not all OP. The tau codex, for the large part, has not changed. Taudar has nothing to do with tau OPness. And I would be greatful if you knocked off all the personal and non-directed personal attacks. What we are talking about is the Tau Codex. Not FW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:



Just to get this out of the way. I think that Codex: Tau Empire is OP. This does not however mean the everything in it is OP. We could easily take out the OP things and make tau relatively balanced (about as balanced as anything is these days). You can easily play without those things, riptides for example. I have found that just not using riptides makes the codex much better to play with and against.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 06:52:40


Post by: davethepak


 L0rdF1end wrote:
Tau are overpowered because other armies had to look at stupidness like Screamerstar to even get close to a Tau gunline.
Little else could do it apart from Drop Pods and then you still potentially had to deal with Intercept.

Someone in play testing really liked Tau which is unfortunate because now 40k is a little on the broken side to the point of trying to include super heavies to fix glaring obvious mistakes.

Now all of the other codices suffer because of 2 over powered dex's.

I still like the challenge though. I have a game against a friend this week and I'll take my Nids to his Tau just for funz.


I have not lost a game to the new tau yet, even with nids.

Seriously people, unless they are running riptide spam, tau are not hard to beat - I hate to say it, it just comes down to the basics.
play the mission
leverage your strengths against their weakness
you don't have to kill a unit, you just have to make it ineffective.

My last game against tau (necrons) I did not even bother to kill the riptide. Its only going to kill one thing a turn, maybe. Big deal. Sure, he contested one objective with it....but had no troops for any of the others.
Kill the markerlights, then kill the troops.
Tau troops die like flies in a bonfire. A t3 troop with a 4 up save? Yes please.

Worried about overwatch? Unless its suits with twin linked burst cannons and the counter fire upgrade, I usually lose only a model or two.
hit them with two units, let them declare overwatch on your garbage unit, or your unit with better saves. Gee, look. My scrabs declare first. Overwatch way. Here come the wraiths.
(actually, you don't even need wraiths, against tau troops...even crappy necron warriors are better than tau troops in assault, I used my wraiths to quickly catch the puretide buff commander - he never had a chance).


A few army specific tactics.
Eldar:
The wave serpent mocks tau infantry. Cover save, oh, you are so cute. Here shasowsun, make 27 saves. What? you are t3 and only need to fail one? Aww....
Oh, a riptide...meet my D scythes, lances, and psychic powers.
Nids:
Say hello to an acid spray or crone. byebye firewarriors or pathfinders
Biovores LOVE pathfinders and warriors. Kroot are just tissue.
Look, a riptide? my 80 points of gargoyles will tie you up for the game.
Dont have gargoyles?, hit the riptide with paroxysm too...ws1 is just fun. Flying tyrant, go kill him now.
Hello mr crisis suit, can you say vector strike is ap3 no cover? I knew you could. Oh, was that shadowsun, your 2+ cover save in a ruin? aww...so sad.
Hey, look, and ethereal, wow, free victory points, biovores...fire!
Wait, you thought I was going to charge your firewarriors with my 30man gant squad? naa...here are 90 devourers....make 40 saves you 4+ models you.
Hey pathfindrers - wait, finally something I can pin!! see how well your markerlights work at BS1.
SM
Can you say grav guns or an auspex? I knew you could.
How about a thunderfire cannon for those pathfdiners relying on that ruin for cover. See ya.
Riptides love snipers and grav guns.
Look a riptide, send in the assualt marines. Wait, he will kill one of us a turn...oh, wait, that means we tie him up for the game for a 100 point unit. um...ok.
Necrons
Wow, finally something worse in CC than a necron warrior....amazing.
Tie up that riptide with a squad of warriors...it will take him a week to kill them all.
CSM
Sonic weapons = dead pathfinders and scoring units.
Assault the riptide - he is terrible in CC
Helldrakes love roasting tau just as much as roasting marines. See those pathfinders in the ruins....not any more.
Guard:
Hey crisis suits, like my battle cannon?
Broadsides are vaporized by vendettas....kill the 4+ save shield drones with mortars first.
Riptide? Yeah, thats nice. here are my conscripts. have fun, you will kill one a round. Mr commisar says so.
Oh, those pathfinders (without whom the riptide is almost useless) back there...every hear the sound of a colossus shell? You will....
Or wait, you put a drone with your riptide? Meet my psykers and weaken resolve...look, I killed your drone...wait? you failed your morale test because of a toaster? thats cute, have a nice day.
Dark Angels
Riptides love plasma, plasma on bikes are even better. Or put azrael in a squad of even basic marines, they will own him.
Overwatch? I am assaulting you with three bike squads, and some termies. You get to fire once. Look...I declared the termies first....enjoy my 2+ saves. You have plasma, or I declared my other unit first. Aww...you killed a tac marine. How nice. Now die.
Gee too bad you don't have cheap librarians...oh, wait, you do! Tau have psychic defense right? oh, wait.
Look, its farsight! Bummer he is T4, and the strength of my power fist is....oh? So sad.
Hey look, we have blind attacks...what was the init on those pathfinders again? Gee, they can't hit anything with their markers now? Cry me a river of blue skinned tears.
etc.

I saw a guy with two riptides the other day....he only had 24 firewarriors. I would have owned him.
The guy he played - yep, focused on the riptides, did not even shoot at the pathfinders, and forgot the eteheral has NO SAVE, and is worth an extra VP.
He lost, complained tau were "OP".
The tau guy, had horrible deployment - I would have erased his pathfinders on turn one, and the firewarriors by turn two, and made him cry for his momma.

Most games i see lost to tau (or almost ANY game) are due to the basics;
- poor target priority
- not playing to the mission
- getting distracted by an annoying unit.
- not taking advantage of their weakness.


Really, not trying to be a jerk, or use the usual "L2play" here. The new tau codex is indeed a strong book, and yeah, riptide spam is quite annoying I admit.
(so is dreadknight spam, or wave serpent spam, or white scars counts as, or DCA+crusaders+priest+ read grenade inquisitor, etc.).

Are the new tau strong? Yes, yes they are. Do they have their weaknesses a good player can take advantage of them? Sure, once they actually pay attention to the game.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 08:16:03


Post by: Makumba



Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 08:20:13


Post by: pax_imperialis


Yes. Yes they are.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 08:22:08


Post by: Commissar Benny


Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 08:30:07


Post by: Sasori


Commissar Benny wrote:
Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.



The Wraithknight is actually pretty fairly balanced.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 08:33:43


Post by: Belly


Tau are not overpowered. As with any recent codex, there's just a couple of really powerful builds.

I think the main reason people find Tau overpowered, is because they can ignore so many rules, and are a pure shooting army. Both very frustrating attributes, but not overpowered. Taudar are a case of perfect synergy, gunline shooting with mobile scoring.

Take the O'vesa star. Depending on the setup, the unit can end up with the following;

2+ saves, 3++/5++, FNP, H&R, ignore cover, 4d6 DTW, fearless, stubborn, tank hunter, monster hunter, re-rolls to hit, split fire, interceptor, skyfire, supporting fire, jet pack moves.

That's why people find them overpowered. Because of all the things that ignore so many rules.

My main quibble with Tau, isn't the strength of their codex, it's what it's forced players to do to counter it. The dreaded screamerstar/seercouncil/centurionstar builds that have arisen since. They're the overpowered ones, and players have arrived at these lists because of the strengths of Tau. And I say that as someone who plays a seer council.

I will add though, the first game I had against Tau with my seer-council was a big case of revenge. I'd been spanked by Tau so many times with my Eldar, I was quite pleased when I tabled a trip-tide list. Turn 2 multi-assault of a riptide, pathfinders and broadsides? Swept them all


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 08:42:27


Post by: gmaleron


Tau are not OP. What I love reading is how everyone complains how they cannot beat them instead of talking about ways to counter them. I play in a very competitive store and the tau players there usually have a very rough time winning games. If they take 3 riptides? Space Marines spam grav guns with either a bike army or Centurions. Having issues with a Tau gunline army? if you're playing Imperial Guard take artillery and swarms of infantry, or even spam Leman Russ battle tanks.

Now I can agree that Allies really are somewhat ridiculous when it comes to the combos that can be created. however it all boils down to adaptability and the willingness to change up your tactics in order to win. I love fighting armies that claim to be the powerhouse of 40k, it provides an exciting challenge that even if I lose I will find ways to beat it and will overcome it eventually.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 09:07:15


Post by: Dunklezahn


 Co'tor Shas wrote:

I never said that the tau codex was bad. What I said was that it is not all OP. The tau codex, for the large part, has not changed. Taudar has nothing to do with tau OPness. And I would be greatful if you knocked off all the personal and non-directed personal attacks. What we are talking about is the Tau Codex.


Seconded, keep it civil Kain, discuss the post content not the poster.

 Kain wrote:

What makes the Riptide so aggravating is that it has a pinpoint accurate large blast that instant deaths most infantry models and ignores their saves unless they're lucky enough to have an invulnerable save or have T5+ and FNP.



I wouldn't call it pinpoint, lets look at the base state 33% to hit dead on (slightly higher given you may roll a 2-3 on your 2d6) with an average scatter of 4" that means it won't even hit the original centre, may well still score some hits on larger units though.
So to get pinpoint you'd want BS7 (to ignore the average scatter) but lets say BS5 as in most cases that would be sufficient to still hit the original target and of course we want it to ignore cover so that's 4 markerlight hits.
Course you can make it BS12 and it still has a 18-19% chance to miss from an overheat before you even start with everything else.

That's 8 Pathfinders or (Did I read right Tetra's are Heavy 2 TL?, I'll use that) 3 Tetra's (I don't know Ramora stats and how many it would take I'm afraid nor can I comment on their toughness) and this is for each Riptide. So now it's firepower has gone up significantly but it is relying on these 5+ save, AV11(?) light skimmers to do it, meaning it's own relative toughness does nothing to protect that first damage loss.

Prescience/Guide takes the base hit chance up to 55% for a hit is less accurate than markerlights *but* the Farseer can be hidden away somewhere tough to crack and is far less vulnerable as a result. You also aren't getting the ignore cover aspect outside of an O'Vessa-Star and rolling up Perfect Timing.

Now, all this isn't to say the Riptide isn't a bit too good, I think it is, the high strength low AP2 and potential for high accuracy and cover ignoring are not to be sniffed at but your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources to get more than one firing in such a way and you don't have to penetrate it's own thick armour to drastically reduce that firepower.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 11:38:43


Post by: Zande4


 Sasori wrote:
Commissar Benny wrote:
Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.



The Wraithknight is actually pretty fairly balanced.


Yeah it's only got a 3+, doesn't have that many shots unless you pay another 60 points on top of an already expensive base cost and doesn't have a stock invulnerable save. It's priced very fairly.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 15:01:40


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 Dunklezahn wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:

I never said that the tau codex was bad. What I said was that it is not all OP. The tau codex, for the large part, has not changed. Taudar has nothing to do with tau OPness. And I would be greatful if you knocked off all the personal and non-directed personal attacks. What we are talking about is the Tau Codex.


Seconded, keep it civil Kain, discuss the post content not the poster.

 Kain wrote:

What makes the Riptide so aggravating is that it has a pinpoint accurate large blast that instant deaths most infantry models and ignores their saves unless they're lucky enough to have an invulnerable save or have T5+ and FNP.



I wouldn't call it pinpoint, lets look at the base state 33% to hit dead on (slightly higher given you may roll a 2-3 on your 2d6) with an average scatter of 4" that means it won't even hit the original centre, may well still score some hits on larger units though.
So to get pinpoint you'd want BS7 (to ignore the average scatter) but lets say BS5 as in most cases that would be sufficient to still hit the original target and of course we want it to ignore cover so that's 4 markerlight hits.
Course you can make it BS12 and it still has a 18-19% chance to miss from an overheat before you even start with everything else.

That's 8 Pathfinders or (Did I read right Tetra's are Heavy 2 TL?, I'll use that) 3 Tetra's (I don't know Ramora stats and how many it would take I'm afraid nor can I comment on their toughness) and this is for each Riptide. So now it's firepower has gone up significantly but it is relying on these 5+ save, AV11(?) light skimmers to do it, meaning it's own relative toughness does nothing to protect that first damage loss.

Prescience/Guide takes the base hit chance up to 55% for a hit is less accurate than markerlights *but* the Farseer can be hidden away somewhere tough to crack and is far less vulnerable as a result. You also aren't getting the ignore cover aspect outside of an O'Vessa-Star and rolling up Perfect Timing.

Now, all this isn't to say the Riptide isn't a bit too good, I think it is, the high strength low AP2 and potential for high accuracy and cover ignoring are not to be sniffed at but your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources to get more than one firing in such a way and you don't have to penetrate it's own thick armour to drastically reduce that firepower.

Remoras used to be fast skimmers in reg 40k, noy they are 10/10/10 2HP shrouded flyers for 90 points and come in squadroms of 1-5. They can't get any upgrades though. Tetras are kind of inersting, their makerlight started out as just a regular makerlight, so nobody took them, in the old IA:3 it was a High-intensity ML (heavy 4) and they came with a free disruption pod, and in the new book they are 1-4 10/10/10 2HP fast open-topped skimmers with scouts, the nerfed high-intensity markerlight (heavy 2 TL). They got a free hoing beacon though, and they have always have a TL pulse rifle.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 16:41:22


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 16:45:05


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 16:47:27


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.


Welcome to my nightmare... We have two blob armies, a massed guard army and a massed ork army in my local meta. They are almost impossible to prevent from getting to and tying up my units... Many a game for me has resulted in a Firewarrior vs Imperial Guard nerf bat fight over no mans land.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 16:49:55


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.


Welcome to my nightmare... We have two blob armies, a massed guard army and a massed ork army in my local meta. They are almost impossible to prevent from getting to and tying up my units... Many a game for me has resulted in a Firewarrior vs Imperial Guard nerf bat fight over no mans land.

The closest I can get to that is the 6 full kroot blob army I have been building .


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 16:55:51


Post by: Wayniac


Commissar Benny wrote:
Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.


Not quite... what he said is the codexes were mistakes because they set the false expectation that all forthcoming codexes would be on the same power level as Tau/Eldar.

Which I interpreted as basically saying they don't see a real problem, but it made everyone think that everything else would be balanced around Tau/Eldar, which is bad because there was no intention of doing that.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 16:56:24


Post by: Martel732


Forget the Wraithknight, it was the Wave Serpent and Seer council that did it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WayneTheGame wrote:
Commissar Benny wrote:
Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.


Not quite... what he said is the codexes were mistakes because they set the false expectation that all forthcoming codexes would be on the same power level as Tau/Eldar.

Which I interpreted as basically saying they don't see a real problem, but it made everyone think that everything else would be balanced around Tau/Eldar, which is bad because there was no intention of doing that.


Forgive the rest of us mortals for wanting to be equally good as our Taudar overlords? Is there a link to this?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 17:20:49


Post by: Wayniac


Martel732 wrote:
Forgive the rest of us mortals for wanting to be equally good as our Taudar overlords? Is there a link to this?


http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/01/an-interesting-conversation-with-gw-rep.html

Mentioned how the Tau and Eldar books were mistakes in that they elevated expectations for the remaining 6th ed books. Said not to expect all (any) books to be quite on that level going forward. Mentioned how it's probably nice for "us" that the books were so strong. [brought up after i mentioned the tyranid book, escalation, dataslates.]


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 17:48:28


Post by: sand.zzz


Tau benefit from the current rules more than any army. If the assault/intercept/overwatch rules were balanced properly we'd have a better game with more variety. Beating a double riptide Taudar list is more difficult than it should be, I don't understand why anyone would even field that list outside of a money tournament. Yet I see casual flgs matches ruined on a weekly basis by try-hard win obsessed players.

Tau and Taudar are way more detrimental to the game than SHA and Escalation.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 18:19:46


Post by: Martel732


Wow. What a douche. I'm very tempted to wait until C:BA drops and just sell all my stuff. I can't believe they came out and said those things. They just openly admitted to not giving a feth about their own game.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 18:47:58


Post by: Wayniac


Martel732 wrote:
Wow. What a douche. I'm very tempted to wait until C:BA drops and just sell all my stuff. I can't believe they came out and said those things. They just openly admitted to not giving a feth about their own game.


Well to keep it in context, there's no knowing WHO said that; as I recall it was never stated. It's not so terrible if it was some wannabe-bigshot store manager. On the other hand if it was someone in the Studio... well, the proof is in the pudding.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 22:01:36


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.


Yeah, except you ignore terrain and the fact there are other models on the table. That unit also costs 270pts minimum (50x4 =200pts conscripts + 70pt naked Lord commissar). So you're using a 270pt unit to tie up a 180pt+upgrades riptide from turn 4 or maybe 3 onwards assuming nothing gets in your way like terrain or another unit that bogs you down for several turns.

Units that large are crap in combat are rarely a good idea. They can occupy a large portion of the table, yes, but they end up too expensive for a single unit, difficult to manoeuvre, struggle to get a fraction of their guns within range of a single target and while you might feel you are controlling a large portion of the table, they are really just occupying it until they get in combat with something (at best) they can't kill or comprehensively beats them because they suck so hard.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 22:51:57


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.


Yeah, except you ignore terrain and the fact there are other models on the table. That unit also costs 270pts minimum (50x4 =200pts conscripts + 70pt naked Lord commissar). So you're using a 270pt unit to tie up a 180pt+upgrades riptide from turn 4 or maybe 3 onwards assuming nothing gets in your way like terrain or another unit that bogs you down for several turns.

Units that large are crap in combat are rarely a good idea. They can occupy a large portion of the table, yes, but they end up too expensive for a single unit, difficult to manoeuvre, struggle to get a fraction of their guns within range of a single target and while you might feel you are controlling a large portion of the table, they are really just occupying it until they get in combat with something (at best) they can't kill or comprehensively beats them because they suck so hard.


First off my you did not asking if brining them was a good idea, you asked how one would get them to combat. My response to that question was a simple, how do you prevent them from getting to combat? There are 50 of them with Ld 10, there are only a few current tournament lists that could cope with such a huge blob.

Secondly, the point is not that they win combat, only that they stay there. Though I have never fought conscripts I can imagine they would function much in the same way as the 30 strong infantry squad blobs I regularly face. Though the infantry squads the guy at my club uses are usually fielded with a single standard commissar not a Lord Commissar, and usually have krak grenades, the idea is to tie a unit up, making them no longer useful. Not to kill it. The blob players at my game store regularly use these blobs to tie up my riptides, seer stars, wraith knights, daemon princes, and even carnifex. They rarely win the fight, but these valuable expensive units are stuck fighting something they are sub par at killing instead of doing their intended damage. For instance against me he uses them as area denial units, preventing me from moving my fusion blasters within 18" of his leman Russ. This means I have to rely on glancing his side armor to death or try to kill his hordes. And it is extremely frustrating to be such a maneuverable army, yet unable to move.

Third and finally if you want to know how to use conscripts effectively. I suggest using exactly what I have already suggested, 50 + a Lord Commissar, and buying Chezchof. Their ability to come back from reserves after you remove them at full strength can be very useful. I would field them in a way to best tie up as much as possible. Send them forward and wait till turn 4. On the start of your 4th turn remove them from the board. On turn 5 they auto come in from reserves 50 strong again and can waltz up to any and all objectives within 12" of your table edge and capture/contest all of them. This would free up the rest of your army to move forward and capture other objectives.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 23:11:33


Post by: dementedwombat


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?


A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.


Welcome to my nightmare... We have two blob armies, a massed guard army and a massed ork army in my local meta. They are almost impossible to prevent from getting to and tying up my units... Many a game for me has resulted in a Firewarrior vs Imperial Guard nerf bat fight over no mans land.


I would absolutely love to play against a force like that. Ranks of fire warriors pouring heaps of pulse rifle fire into the advancing wall of dudes, crisis suits jumping around trying to tie them up/ get at any back line staff, large blast templates raining down...but there's just so many of them that I can't kill enough and they finally get to my lines and we get tied up in the combat that will never end.

I wouldn't even mind losing that game. Being able to cause so many casualties to my opponent on the way across and just watching the wall keep advancing would be its own reward.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 23:26:04


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
First off my you did not asking if brining them was a good idea, you asked how one would get them to combat. My response to that question was a simple, how do you prevent them from getting to combat? There are 50 of them with Ld 10, there are only a few current tournament lists that could cope with such a huge blob.
First off, I didn't ask the question at all, that was someone else

I wouldn't prevent them from getting to combat, I'd prevent them from getting to combat with anything important. Tarpit units aren't awesome when they're so expensive and so large that they occupy most of the board when you're fighting against an army that isn't actively trying to assault you (such a unit might be effective against an army that's actually trying to charge your own expensive squishies, something Tau isn't doing). When you start to get close to tarpitting a unit I care about (around turn 3), just charge it with something I don't mind having tied up for the rest of the game.

Secondly, the point is not that they win combat, only that they stay there. Though I have never fought conscripts I can imagine they would function much in the same way as the 30 strong infantry squad blobs I regularly face. Though the infantry squads the guy at my club uses are usually fielded with a single standard commissar not a Lord Commissar, and usually have krak grenades, the idea is to tie a unit up, making them no longer useful. Not to kill it. The blob players at my game store regularly use these blobs to tie up my riptides, seer stars, wraith knights, daemon princes, and even carnifex. They rarely win the fight, but these valuable expensive units are stuck fighting something they are sub par at killing instead of doing their intended damage. For instance against me he uses them as area denial units, preventing me from moving my fusion blasters within 18" of his leman Russ. This means I have to rely on glancing his side armor to death or try to kill his hordes. And it is extremely frustrating to be such a maneuverable army, yet unable to move.
Like I said, that only really works if you can get the tar pit unit to the thing you want to tarpit. Such a tarpit is more useful as bubblewrapping as you mention, I don't really see them being useful for making the long trek across the battlefield to tarpit a unit that probably has some bubble wrapping of it's own.

The 30 large guard units are a slightly different story. They can act as bubble wrapping, they are smaller and more mobile and when given a 1st rank fire 2nd rank fire order they can actually do a bit of damage with their flashlights. Also you choose to blob together your guardmen during deployment, so you have the option of not blobbing them together if you decide you would rather have more scoring units instead of one big tar pit. Not saying conscripts are bad or anything, just they don't quite fulfill the same role as a 30 large guardsman blob.
Third and finally if you want to know how to use conscripts effectively. I suggest using exactly what I have already suggested, 50 + a Lord Commissar, and buying Chezchof. Their ability to come back from reserves after you remove them at full strength can be very useful. I would field them in a way to best tie up as much as possible. Send them forward and wait till turn 4. On the start of your 4th turn remove them from the board. On turn 5 they auto come in from reserves 50 strong again and can waltz up to any and all objectives within 12" of your table edge and capture/contest all of them. This would free up the rest of your army to move forward and capture other objectives.
What happens to the Commissar when you do that? Anyway, I feel like that's a different kettle of fish we are talking about here. You already said it takes 3 to 4 turns to reach the riptide you want to tar pit, now on turn 4 you're going to suicide them (I'm assuming that costs you the victory points as it says they're removed as casualties, I've never run Chenkov myself). Doesn't seem like a great option.

If you're talking about using them for bubblewrapping the rest of your army that's another matter, but not really what we were talking about in the context of this discussion (ie. using them as an effective means of tying up a riptide).

I assume we were talking about an actual effective battleplan of tying up a riptide, not simply the fact that in isolation with nothing else on the board they could physically reach a riptide even though it's not actually going to gain you anything in an actual battle. If we are talking about the latter, my mistake.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/27 23:53:17


Post by: Scipio Africanus


 Gitsmasher wrote:
This again?


WHAAA I HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HOW TO BEAT THIS CODEX WITH MY BATTLEFORCE ARMY

Yeah, this again.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 00:50:48


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


Sorry about that, I did not intend to make that towards you, In my hast to reply in the short walk from my department's office to my jeep I must have accidentally included the "you" there. My most sincere apologies, I had no intention of singling anyone out.

What happens to the Commissar when you do that? Anyway, I feel like that's a different kettle of fish we are talking about here. You already said it takes 3 to 4 turns to reach the riptide you want to tar pit, now on turn 4 you're going to suicide them (I'm assuming that costs you the victory points as it says they're removed as casualties, I've never run Chenkov myself). Doesn't seem like a great option.

If you're talking about using them for bubblewrapping the rest of your army that's another matter, but not really what we were talking about in the context of this discussion (ie. using them as an effective means of tying up a riptide).

I assume we were talking about an actual effective battleplan of tying up a riptide, not simply the fact that in isolation with nothing else on the board they could physically reach a riptide even though it's not actually going to gain you anything in an actual battle. If we are talking about the latter, my mistake.


To this I can say that the Lord Commissar would most likely die as he would be left in combat alone. For this reason I would not make him my warlord. This strategy of recycling the conscripts would only apply to objective based games in which kill points do not count. Finally the 4th turn assault describes the worst case scenario, a situation in which your opponent is so devious and so tactically incline that he is able to avoid getting into combat until that last second 4th turn assault. It is more likely that they would get into combat 2nd or 3rd turn as terrain, objectives, and your other units would force the opponent to move in such a way as to prevent them from hugging the bard edge. Against most armies this unit would be better served using melee to tie up models, but against Tau and Eldar the strategy changes slightly. This squad would be worse than the 30 man infantry squads against Eldar, no krak grenades to threaten the Serpents, but the idea against both is the same, area denial. The goal is to put them where you don't want the enemy to go, or use them to box the enemy in. If done correctly you can push the opponents full force to a single corner, prevent them from moving onto objectives, and give your army free reign over the battlefield. Against me as I said the 30 man blobs are often sent towards my riptide solely to prevent me from getting to melta range. Blobs are devestating, and worth many times their points. It is my humble opinion that a Ld 10, stubborn, or fearless blob is just as tactically flexible as an Aegis Defense Line. I make this claim in so far as they both offer cover to your army, but despite being able to be targeted and eventually whittled down, blobs can move forward and corner your foe.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 03:11:13


Post by: EmilCrane


What Tau player has trouble killing 100 guardsmen? Provided you took a sufficient amount of fire warriors those guardsmen shouldn't ever cross the board.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 03:29:19


Post by: krazynadechukr


NO. Not at all.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 03:37:22


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 EmilCrane wrote:
What Tau player has trouble killing 100 guardsmen? Provided you took a sufficient amount of fire warriors those guardsmen shouldn't ever cross the board.


What Firewarriors are you supposed to use to kill them when they are being deleted a full squad at a time by Hellhounds and Colossus? The guy isn't dumb, he hit Pathfinders and Firewarriors first knowing that the broadsides would have to pick whether to stop the oncoming horde or take out the approaching chimera and leman russ. He never aimed at the broadsides or riptides, he knew how to beat me, because he knew his own weaknesses.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 06:34:46


Post by: MWHistorian


 Scipio Africanus wrote:
 Gitsmasher wrote:
This again?


WHAAA I HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HOW TO BEAT THIS CODEX WITH MY BATTLEFORCE ARMY

Yeah, this again.

And award for least useful post goes to Scipio Africanus!
Yes, because everyone that loses to Tau has an unpainted battleforce army that their parents bought them for Christmas.
We have a lot of experienced players from all kinds of backgrounds using all sorts of armies and lists and the vast majority say that Tau are overpowered. Does this mean they're invincible? No. But what it does mean as that they are more likely to win not because of player skill but because their units have stats and abilities that overpower their opponents. Aka: Its not a fair fight. You'll probably say "Life aint fair..he he he, just learn to play betterer or somethin'." No, this is a game where a random pick up game should expect to see a close to even chance of either player winning.
That is not the case for the majority of the people.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 10:50:40


Post by: Dunklezahn


BaalSNAFU wrote:
Okay so what I'm reading is...


Actually you'll notice there was absolutely no return on the fact that the Tau codex is chock a block with non-OP units mostly because unless you tear the pages out, it is. Just because you only see 4 units in the whole dex being used does not remove the fact the others exist nor does it somehow impose OP status on units like Vespid, your personal meta does not equal the game in totality.
Please don't come into a thread where people are trying to have a reasonable conversation and attempt to spark offence and anger without contributing anything to the discussion, we've got too many folks skirting the line of MOD involvement already.

Are there OP units in the codex, yes, is the Tau codex OP in totality, no.
Will competitive scenes only field those high power spectrum armies, yes.
Does that mean Tau will do well in these scenes, yes.
Does that mean all those games where those units are minimal/not used are being fought using an OP army, no.
Does that make Tau OP, no.
Does that make Riptides/Buffmanders/Broadsides a little OP, yes (for a given value of OP)



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 11:02:29


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


I almost feel like it's just coming down to arguing the meaning of "Tau are overpowered".

Group A) If you think that several (but not all) overpowered units make an overpowered army, then Tau are overpowered.

Group B) If you feel that every (or some large proportion there of) unit in a codex must be overpowered to warrant calling it an overpowered army, then Tau aren't overpowered.

I tend to err on the side of Group A, because overpowered options typically means, in general, the army will do better. Every army can self-nerf, it's the nature of wargames. But I still think it's an overpowered army if your self nerfing (through taking less powerful, perhaps more fluffy/thematic choices) takes you from overpowered to average, while an army like 'nids or BA if you do the same thing it takes you from average to really crap.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 12:06:29


Post by: Dunklezahn


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Every army can self-nerf, it's the nature of wargames.


See that's the crux of it, you are assuming everyone starts at "choose the best list" and has to self nerf whereas I see it that to make a good tourney list you need to practice and hone which is a self *buff* over the ground state of players.

The "casual" list is more the natural ground state from my viewpoint.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 12:13:14


Post by: Breng77


The problem is that there is no such thing as a "Casual List" in this game because of imbalance. I played a casual team game right after the New CSM book came out and took the new models I liked and had painted which included Spawn and a Heldrake. Needless to say the game was not much fun for my opponents when the heldrake was wiping a unit a turn.

That is largely the issue. It is entirely possible to make casual lists that stomp other casual lists, without the intention to do so.

Codices like Tau are OP because it is very possible to have people stumble into very OP lists when playing casual.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 12:35:34


Post by: Sidstyler


Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 12:43:58


Post by: niv-mizzet


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
They have 5 wounds, and if 40 guard fire with first rank fire second rank fire at one riptide, that amounts to 120 dice. 60 hit, 10 wound. on average. And this does not include their lascannon... it is just stupid devastating. He hides his tanks behind the guard which are in turn behind the defense line, so I can't get close enough to use melta, and I am glancing him on 5's and they get a 4+ cover save... it is hard to beat. Especially considering those 30 man guard blobs are intended to take down monstrous creatures like my riptides, and my broadsides get wiped by the plasma tanks so fast it makes me sad. Guard are one of the better matches for Tau in this edition from what I have seen. Guard and Daemons... I hate Daemons... Invulnerable saves on everything and they always get to melee... Takes a lot of work to beat them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a 220 point model better have T6, a 2+ 5++, and FNP... that is a lot of points to drop on a single guy with BS3 and WS2.


You forgot to add in the 2+ armor and FNP on the end of your calculation. Only 11% of the successful lasgun wounds actually wound. That's 1 wound from 120 shots, so SIX HUNDRED SHOTS on average to down one.

It sounds like you need to visit the tactics board if you're having trouble with guard as tau. His cover shouldn't matter, and any front armor that isn't 14 that is threatening to you should be downed quick. You shouldn't even be in range of 600 lasgun shots until you're down to JUST them left, and you've pretty much won at that point.

I played against guard a few times with previous tau, and typically wiped them, with some damage. Played them with 6th tau a few times, typically wiped them with my dead pile being a number of models I could count on one hand.

Next time you play against the guard player, post a batrep so we can find some areas where your tactics could use improvement.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 13:10:40


Post by: Breng77


 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.


1.) Markerlights return to -1 Cover save per light (the current rule is badly worded, and too good) and cannot be used in overwatch.

2.) Units may only benefit from one signature system at a time.

3.) All units wishing overwatch a unit declare the overwatch simultaneously, not unit A overwatches sees result, then B sees results and so on.

4.) Riptides reduced to 4 wounds.

5.) Vespids weapon to 18" Assault 2 S4 AP3 Haywire.

That is about it without taking points into account.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 13:14:37


Post by: niv-mizzet


 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.


-Remove MSSS/CnC node
-Make riptide a jetpack walker with typical dreadnought armor and 3 HP. Add special rule in for the drones to be in his unit, but the unit is not joinable by any other IC.
-Shadowsun's stealth and shrouded apply only to herself.
-Core rule change: All deepstriking units snap fire anything heavier than a pistol, to bring them in line with deep striking assault units. (mainly aimed at farsight bombs here.)
-Markerlights remove cover 1 point at a time, can't cause grounding tests, and can't be used to improve snap shots.
-Core rule change: Insert some detriment to overwatch here. Removal of "repercussion-free" overwatch attempts.
-Nerf a wound off of crisis commanders/farsight. 4 wounds? seriously? The only big CC downside they suffer compared to MEQ HQ's is low WS, and that's literally the least damning downside in the game. WS 1 still hits WS 10 33% of the time.
-Make vespids a little cheaper.

That should just about do it. Most of the things in the Tau codex are good. I said when I first saw the book: "I could throw darts at the unit selection and come out with a decent army."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again on the riptide. I believe it still remains point-for-point the most broken single unit in 40k. The best bargain IMO being an IA tide with no upgrades at 185. They're just WAAAY too damn sturdy for that point cost. The shooting is good, but would be okay if it wasn't mounted on a nigh invincible monster. They also get all the monstrous creature rules, including fear and smash. Even with crappy WS, they still hit 4's on troops and 5's on good CC special characters, and instadeath plenty of them with smash.

Yknow what I get for around that point cost? Gabriel Seth, a dedicated melee fighter. If I magically get him to melee with the 'tide without getting instagibbed? Smash attack instadeath if I fail a single 4+ invuln. Meanwhile Seth manages to get 1 wound past the armor every 3rd round of combat, with 1 rend every other round, therefore needing 6 rounds of combat where he never suffers a single smash hit to win.

A shooting model in a shooting army with incredible range has no business being that sturdy and absolutely no business being able to beat closely costed melee special characters IN MELEE. (bear in mind this is a tide without FNP)

The only saving grace is nova charge. I see "questionable" tau players use that thing every turn, and of course they pay for FNP to help survive the overheats. The tau players I fear most are the ones that realize that nova-charging is a trap, and only use it when the situation REALLY calls for it. And that happens maybe one turn every 3 games or so. In line with that, they also don't waste points on any of the upgrades, and keep the thing at 185. That way, any suicide squad paid significantly more to off it than they paid for it to begin with.

Tactical tip to struggling riptide players: stop nova charging. You're just making your own unit easier to kill. That extra shot of your sub weapon isn't worth it.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 13:46:10


Post by: Sasori


 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.


It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 14:07:02


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 Sasori wrote:
 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.


It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.


I agree with this statement a lot actually, these changes would more than fix the issues of balance. Now how to fix Eldar....


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 14:08:57


Post by: Sasori


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.


It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.


I agree with this statement a lot actually, these changes would more than fix the issues of balance. Now how to fix Eldar....


It's really the same thing with Eldar. There are just a few problem units, most of the codex on the whole is fairly balanced.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 14:13:59


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 Sasori wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.


It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.


I agree with this statement a lot actually, these changes would more than fix the issues of balance. Now how to fix Eldar....


It's really the same thing with Eldar. There are just a few problem units, most of the codex on the whole is fairly balanced.


I agree completely, just wish the stupid Serpent shield problem went away. I would like to see an eldar army not comprised of 4-6 tanks with minimal jet bike support. The only reason I bought my riptides, a unit I swore never to purchase, in the first place was that they could survive the serpent spam. Until I got them, and I only have 2, I never won, or came close to winning against serpent spam.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 14:18:27


Post by: Blacksails


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I agree completely, just wish the stupid Serpent shield problem went away. I would like to see an eldar army not comprised of 4-6 tanks with minimal jet bike support.


Out of curiosity, do you dislike that kind of an army on principle, or just because its fairly overpowered?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 14:29:39


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 Blacksails wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I agree completely, just wish the stupid Serpent shield problem went away. I would like to see an eldar army not comprised of 4-6 tanks with minimal jet bike support.


Out of curiosity, do you dislike that kind of an army on principle, or just because its fairly overpowered?


I dislike any army that defeats some half of the codexes in existence by de fault. This is why I swore not to buy riptides, or missile sides, I swore never to be that guy. But after 6 months of our resident Serpent spam player running a near identical list in every week's tournament I decided to shut him down. I much regret purchasing 2 riptides and 3 broadsides with which I easily defeated him 2 weeks in a row. We swore to a cease fire after that, I removed my new models from the table and he stopped using more than three wave serpents in any given tournament. He has since won second a few times and first once, but using a more diverse list. I feel confident I fixed my own meta, but then he could at any moment revert, in which case I would be forced to as well.

The best part is since this occurrence Orks have won second once, guard have won first twice, and CSM have won first once. I have regularly won second, but rarely higher, as I no longer use competitive lists.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 14:52:06


Post by: Blacksails


So to clarify; its not that you dislike an army of wave serpents and jetbikes, its that you dislike the power level that army represents.

Put another way, would you dislike a force like that if it was generally underpowered?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 14:53:55


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 Blacksails wrote:
So to clarify; its not that you dislike an army of wave serpents and jetbikes, its that you dislike the power level that army represents.

Put another way, would you dislike a force like that if it was generally underpowered?

I might be a little disappointing in the player. That list would and is hardly fun to play against, but no I would have no issue with it on a moral level if it were not OP.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 15:05:28


Post by: Blacksails


 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I might be a little disappointing in the player. That list would and is hardly fun to play against, but no I would have no issue with it on a moral level if it were not OP.


Different strokes and all that, its just that a wave serpent/grav tank heavy army with supporting jetbikes is not only fluffy, but appeals to my sense of redundancy and symmetry.

Just curious if you hated that style of army purely on its power level or a combination of power level and your own taste in armies.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 15:07:42


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


 Blacksails wrote:
 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I might be a little disappointing in the player. That list would and is hardly fun to play against, but no I would have no issue with it on a moral level if it were not OP.


Different strokes and all that, its just that a wave serpent/grav tank heavy army with supporting jetbikes is not only fluffy, but appeals to my sense of redundancy and symmetry.

Just curious if you hated that style of army purely on its power level or a combination of power level and your own taste in armies.


Grav tanks would make it more fun, I was saying a purely serpent spam army with one seer council on jet bikes is unfun. Not that grav tanks and jet bikes would be. I agree with you that kind of list appeals to me.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 16:48:56


Post by: Mr Morden


Completely agree that sorting out the really OP / Problem units would do a lot for the game.

Reduce the durability of the Riptide

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 17:02:55


Post by: Breng77


The largest issue the serpent has is that it is a dedicated transport. If it were say a heavy support option, it would be strong, but a limit of 3, and giving up other units to include it would go a long way.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 17:23:11


Post by: Sasori


 Mr Morden wrote:
Completely agree that sorting out the really OP / Problem units would do a lot for the game.

Reduce the durability of the Riptide

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.


It really is that simple.

Most of the current OP books, really only suffer from a few units that need to be toned down. Between that, and BB not allowing ICs of different armies to join other armies units, we'd be a lot more closer to competitive balance.

For the Serpent, honestly, I think if the Shield was D3 it would be fine. Still incredibly durable, but is the most expensive dedicated transport in the game.



Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 22:16:33


Post by: pm713


 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 22:57:44


Post by: Mr Morden


pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?


Problems with the Wave Serpent:

Its the only DT the Eldar have so they currently pretty much have to use them and as its very OP it then makes it worse by being in the game with multiples
Its good at everything from killing enemy ground units to flyers and is hard to kill
Its weapon is range 60" is powerful, ignores cover and is pinning and extremely effective against enemy opposite numbers / light vehicles - especially since its supposed ot be only used in Extremis, its D6+1 shots and usually TL...just sickening
it is durable with 3HP and AV12 front and sides - then you add the shield.............
The Shield is very powerful - not only protecting it from anti-tank weapons by turning them into mere glances but........
Not only this but the Shield invariably stops the serpent from suffering stunned or shaken results and so means that its passengers are immune to thsese effects which can render even troops that disembark useless for a turn - especially those with flamer type weapons


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 23:17:49


Post by: pm713


 Mr Morden wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?


Problems with the Wave Serpent:

Its the only DT the Eldar have so they currently pretty much have to use them and as its very OP it then makes it worse by being in the game with multiples
Its good at everything from killing enemy ground units to flyers and is hard to kill
Its weapon is range 60" is powerful, ignores cover and is pinning and extremely effective against enemy opposite numbers / light vehicles - especially since its supposed ot be only used in Extremis, its D6+1 shots and usually TL...just sickening
it is durable with 3HP and AV12 front and sides - then you add the shield.............
The Shield is very powerful - not only protecting it from anti-tank weapons by turning them into mere glances but........
Not only this but the Shield invariably stops the serpent from suffering stunned or shaken results and so means that its passengers are immune to thsese effects which can render even troops that disembark useless for a turn - especially those with flamer type weapons

Doesn't using the 60" weapon remove the main defence issue?


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/28 23:41:51


Post by: Mr Morden


pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?


Problems with the Wave Serpent:

Its the only DT the Eldar have so they currently pretty much have to use them and as its very OP it then makes it worse by being in the game with multiples
Its good at everything from killing enemy ground units to flyers and is hard to kill
Its weapon is range 60" is powerful, ignores cover and is pinning and extremely effective against enemy opposite numbers / light vehicles - especially since its supposed ot be only used in Extremis, its D6+1 shots and usually TL...just sickening
it is durable with 3HP and AV12 front and sides - then you add the shield.............
The Shield is very powerful - not only protecting it from anti-tank weapons by turning them into mere glances but........
Not only this but the Shield invariably stops the serpent from suffering stunned or shaken results and so means that its passengers are immune to thsese effects which can render even troops that disembark useless for a turn - especially those with flamer type weapons

Doesn't using the 60" weapon remove the main defence issue?


well its has to drop down to its still good armour and jink/holofields save, if its not in cover. as well..............and if you have AT weapons left to try and hit it. and of course this is all dictated by the Eldar player who gets his shield back next turn - having used the "emergency" weapon.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/30 05:34:36


Post by: Lord Krungharr


Tau can certainly give even the best of players a run for their money vs a mediocre player with properly kitted Tau. However, there are many many ways to overcome them even without all the new non-regular FOC extra crap. I guess vs a very good player with all the right competitive favorites it would be a bugger to deal with. But here are my ideas:

Grey Knights w Coteaz and Henchmen, and IG allies getting barrage alpha strikes (with Coteaz helping to get 1st turn) can do some serious hurt. His 'been expecting you can also do some major pain to any deepstriking crisis bombs. Some Warp Quakes are good for that too. Servo Skulls could help those Pathfinders to stay where you don't want them by preventing Scout/Infiltrate, whatever they have.

A huge Grimoired Flesh Hound/JuggerHerald unit is often the way, actually always the way, I beat Tau (and Eldar for that matter). Typically at least a couple Hounds and most of the time all the Heralds get into their lines and beat the crap out of everything, including Riptides. Multi-charging is also a good tactic (vs Wave Serpents especially, though I digress), though with Supporting Fire, a tricky one at best with Tau. This and Telepathy psykers also properly defeat them nicely.

I could also a Drop Pod army of various sorts working well, assuming something could take care of the Taus with Early Warning Override. That little upgrade does indeed screw over many a tactic, but I don't think every unit can take it, though most of the ones that matter do take it. But I don't think you can fire Interceptor twice in the same turn, there's probably a thread about that somewhere?

Dark Eldar I think would have a very rough time actually since their vehicles die to bolters. But I guess the so-called Beastpack could work? Or is that with Eldar allies only? I don't play either one, nor have a I played vs a Beastpack.

Orks? Ummm.....

Chaos Marines, I'm liking the Huron/Typhus/Zombie/Obliterator style. Vast hordes of shambling wounds closing in fast (well not that fast) along with good shooting and some psyker/CC threats (usually in a Land Raider with 7 man Plague Marine squad). Heldrakes don't seem to last very long for me vs Tau sometimes, but probably a good idea to have in there. I nearly had that game won, but I didn't deploy wisely and forgot to charge with my zombies in a turn. Otherwise I think I'd have had that in the win-sack.

Space Wolves, drop pods, Rune Priests, Logan w split firing relentless Long Fangs either dropping in OR in Land Raiders OR outflanking with a Hunter Saga Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Wulfen in every squad just because there's nothing more amazing than werewolf space Vikings!

And if all else fails, just get a Reaver Titan.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/30 08:06:21


Post by: Wakshaani


Weirdly, there's one change I'd like to see that'd *upgrade* the Tau in one area. (After fixing things like the RIptide, natch.)

I'd like for the Pulse Carbine to change from the current 18" Assault 2 line to a 12" Assault 3 line.

Right now, it's the same as a Pulse RIfle at 15" or less and vastly worse at 19-30", so that it's only really effective at 16-18", a tight window indeed. Switching it up to an Assault 3/12" gun would put it in a place between Pulse Rifle and Burst Cannon, as well as providing some close range punch for Tau to help fend off assaults.

Gun Drones would be kinda scary. Not super-scary, but enough to make you think for a minute.

Beyond those, and the rather spiffy changes noted above, I'd probably make some small changes for thematic reasons. Tau use base 8 math rather than base ten, so more 4, 8, and 12 units instead of 3 or 5. Introduce a Commander in a Stealth Suit instead of a Crisis Suit for those that want to make stealthy mission styles. Tack on another alien unit or two.

But I'm probably getting off target at this point, so, I'll shush.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/30 11:33:12


Post by: Totalwar1402


They already have Shadowsun as the stealth suit commander.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/30 12:22:30


Post by: ionusx


I think what needs to happen is a range nerf on tau firepower. Basically as soon as tau turn 1 happens (assuming he is smart). His gunline opens up, models drops, his cannons open up and more drop, his suits stop and pop then more drop and then he coats your biggest thing still standing in markerlights so now whatever's left is easier to kill next round.

He doesn't need to move much beyond firing arc adjustments and doesn't need to even claim midfield. He gets first blood, he cab potentially get other vp's, stands there and waits for you to die.

Nerfing range by say 25-33% would force him off his rear, into the fight, and probably make tau players feel a lot more in line with everyone else. Because right now other armies who lack their firepower or the range of their guns feel like the Americans during the start of the revolutionary war. Their lining up to get shot and by the time their in a position to do some good their now forced to sit their and trade blows with the undisputed MASTERS of standing in fields, lining up, and shooting things.

You don't believe me? Go watch 6th edition tau vs tau matches. It's two armies standing across the board shooting at eachother until there's nobody left standing.

Keep their cannons, reduce their range and the tau are actually a pretty fair army to fight.


Are Tau overpowered? @ 2014/03/30 18:28:52


Post by: OzTeG8ndPwRfl


ionusx wrote:
I think what needs to happen is a range nerf on tau firepower. Basically as soon as tau turn 1 happens (assuming he is smart). His gunline opens up, models drops, his cannons open up and more drop, his suits stop and pop then more drop and then he coats your biggest thing still standing in markerlights so now whatever's left is easier to kill next round.

He doesn't need to move much beyond firing arc adjustments and doesn't need to even claim midfield. He gets first blood, he cab potentially get other vp's, stands there and waits for you to die.

Nerfing range by say 25-33% would force him off his rear, into the fight, and probably make tau players feel a lot more in line with everyone else. Because right now other armies who lack their firepower or the range of their guns feel like the Americans during the start of the revolutionary war. Their lining up to get shot and by the time their in a position to do some good their now forced to sit their and trade blows with the undisputed MASTERS of standing in fields, lining up, and shooting things.

You don't believe me? Go watch 6th edition tau vs tau matches. It's two armies standing across the board shooting at eachother until there's nobody left standing.

Keep their cannons, reduce their range and the tau are actually a pretty fair army to fight.

To me Tau were always about mobility. That was their strength in 4th and 5th, and they were second only to Eldar at it. This addition saw the Missileside and the disappearance of the Advanced Stabilization System, which has lead to a vast immobile fire base in the armies of many Tau players. However immobile lines cause problems, some armies can pick on you if you chose that strategy. In my meta only one out of three Tau players play a fire line army. My pathfinders never move after scouting, but my Firewarriors run right at the enemy, people know my rapid fire range and avoid it. I have to run at them to use storm of fire. My crisis teams either run forward or deepstrike/infiltrate and are always in my enemies face. And every riptide I have seen fielded ran forward and tried to get in Melta range, or even smash attack to help deal with AV14 vehicles. The only things that even make sense not to move forward are missilesides, and I have seen players avoid their range the whole game. 36" is not to great.