rabidguineapig wrote:
I used a full mech guard army against Orks yesterday - Pask punisher + eradicator, 4x Mech vets in chims w/ 2 meltas, 2 hellhounds, an exterminator, and 3 Wyverns.

I went first and took out 2 trukks, 10 lootas, the big mek with SAG, and a whole bunch of boyz. The Wyverns did about 30 wounds total, they're insane... The game was basically over at the end of the first half-turn, and by turn 4 the orks were gone and I had lost a hellhound along with pask and his squadron mate (which I easily could have prevented, it was to an assault I could have moved away from). I would have felt bad if my friend wasn't constantly trash talking haha, Orks are really an awful matchup for guard though.

if the ork player was working a trukk list, would you agree there would probably have been a different story if:

the orks went first and moved 25" towards your army
the lootas were in a sensible place (under something to become immune to barrage weapons).
the ork firepower you rightly focussed on had had a round of shooting.

frankly an ork army facing a mass firepower army without turn 1 is always at a disadvantage. I like to bring things such as dakkajets and deffkoptas, so i can either deploy the deffkoptas if I'm going first or outflank them if I'm going second. I honestly think that anyone bringing the green tide will definitely have their work cut out for them.

anyone tried a battlewagon bash against the new guard? I think that nullifying most of the shots would work quite well...

 some bloke wrote:
it's all about tactics. he's got a squadron of artillery that kills your orks really easily? bring some rokkit koptas and take 'em out. bring a trukk-rush and watch as he gets one round of firepower off and is then too afraid to shoot your orks as they're too close to his own army. bring snikrot and 2 rokkits and take out the rear armour. bring many, many lootas, in battlewagons, on a skyshield - practically untouchable. heck, bring a fortress of redemption and see how he likes barrage krakstorm missiles and a twin-linked orky lascannon manned by flashgitz to remove cover saves!

we've always got an answer to everything, the only thing now is it's not just 'bring boys and a powerklaw'.

I'm sorry but absolutely none of those were good suggestions at all.

And I agree with jifel thank god we're coming after guard not before them.

Battlewagon lists hasnt had a chance even since 6th ed unless it was against other orks. New codexes trump it further lol. Which angers me because i have FIVE battle wagons collecting dust. They pop too easy now.
i know its a business and they wont sell new models unless its powerful, or at least somewhat effective and epic as hell looking, but its kinda bs that they make some units obsolete with new editions or codices. I bring things as orks and tau that are sub-par on the OP-scale all the damn time, because they still can work and i dont like the cookie-cutter lists cause theyre kinda cheesy.

But i will never field flashgitz, buggies, non-dakkajet fliers, any walker, kommandos, burnas, or weird boyz because theyre not even effective enough to bring in a funny list anymore. My idea of a funny ork list is stormboyz these days lol
EDIT: OK i take back the kommando one. Its quite hilarious to bring Snikrot + Ghazzy and have him appear behind an enemy tank line, and oddly effective. Without ghazzy or a megaboss though, useless as hell.

Orks would do much better, as far as assault is concerned, with some sort of "press forward" rule where regardless of the direction of fire, ork casualties were removed from "the back" (aka let the ork player choose), to represent the impossibility of firing for effect when such a swarm is coming at you.

And, yes, KFF becoming a 5+ invul save instead of cover.

I have to agree that taking casualties from the front, although it makes sense, has hampered Orks probably more than anything else this edition.

However, ever since thunderfires became popiular anything that's not a Nob biker or in a Battlewagon has become completely obselete. I can't stress this enough. Every time I've been up against thunderfires with Orks a whole boyz squad gets blown away almost every turn. I fear that Wyverns may be even worse. I get it, killing tons of models is fun for whoever is controlling those things, but for Ork players it's just wholesale slaughter.

Tyranids worked around this problem by having a bunch of viable FMCs, but I don't foresee Nobz with wings happening any time soon.

herpguy wrote:I have to agree that taking casualties from the front, although it makes sense, has hampered Orks probably more than anything else this edition.

It hurts all foot, horde, and close combat armies. Especially foot horde CC armies like slugga tide and guard power blobs and the like.

The new guard codex did nothing to fix this problem at all, so I can't imagine that it will for orks either.

All you can do is hope for a rules revision in 7th ed.

I don't mind over watch or casualties from the front as they both are rules that make sense. It illustrates some form of dynamic combat in the I go you go format. In many ways what made assault too good in previous editions was the fact an enemy could appear from reserves or from around a corner and assault before defenders ever fired which made no sense. I do mind how ever that they decided to implement both. One would have made sense and balanced the game but casualties from the front AND overwatch made assault way to difficult, oh and this is ignoring random assault lengths because that is obviously stupid, or at least should be obvious.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I don't mind over watch or casualties from the front as they both are rules that make sense. It illustrates some form of dynamic combat in the I go you go format. In many ways what made assault too good in previous editions was the fact an enemy could appear from reserves or from around a corner and assault before defenders ever fired

And then we deconstructed that one method which genestealers were usable.

 Spellbound wrote:
Orks would do much better, as far as assault is concerned, with some sort of "press forward" rule where regardless of the direction of fire, ork casualties were removed from "the back" (aka let the ork player choose), to represent the impossibility of firing for effect when such a swarm is coming at you.

And, yes, KFF becoming a 5+ invul save instead of cover.

But my Tyranids don't get such a rule!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I don't mind over watch or casualties from the front as they both are rules that make sense. It illustrates some form of dynamic combat in the I go you go format. In many ways what made assault too good in previous editions was the fact an enemy could appear from reserves or from around a corner and assault before defenders ever fired

And then we deconstructed that one method which genestealers were usable.

There we go with the "5e was an assault edition" myth again.

@ Dakkamite, why wouldn't these thing work? deffkoptas, I've found, are brilliant at crippling low-armour or 3+ save units. one game the first thing they did was scout move, normal move, kill the thunderfire cannon. other games they've outflanked behind waveserpents and blown them up, and I see no reason they can't do it to an artillery list.

I've also done the 20 lootas in two battlewagons on top of a skyshield. they lasted the whole game, getting shot by a wraithknight every turn. the only problem was my rolling had them miss with nearly every shot. had they been average, they'd have been amazing!

my main advice with orks is don't shoot if you want to assault next turn - go flat-out instead.

With the 6ed rules rumoured to be being taken off the shelves and thrown out the window next month.
Then orks, BA and wolves all cc orientated, and GW wanting to sell them models. I wouldnt be surprised if its more than just a updated ruleset.
So i have a little bit of hope

the ancient wrote:
With the 6ed rules rumoured to be being taken off the shelves and thrown out the window next month.
Then orks, BA and wolves all cc orientated, and GW wanting to sell them models. I wouldnt be surprised if its more than just a updated ruleset.
So i have a little bit of hope

I wouldn't put any bank on these 6.5e rumors.

 Kain wrote:

the ancient wrote:
With the 6ed rules rumoured to be being taken off the shelves and thrown out the window next month.
Then orks, BA and wolves all cc orientated, and GW wanting to sell them models. I wouldnt be surprised if its more than just a updated ruleset.
So i have a little bit of hope

I wouldn't put any bank on these 6.5e rumors.

I would, to many rumors point to june with a new starter box set, the new ork codex which keeps getting pushed back to june, and the amount of rumors about a new edition in june.

June is coming as fun things are afoot

 Kain wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

And then we deconstructed that one method which genestealers were usable.

There we go with the "5e was an assault edition" myth again.

I never said that. Quite the contrary. Genestealers had problems with crossing the table. Outflanking into assault was the most effective thing you could do with them, and it WAS effective. Whether 5e was an "assault", "shooting", or any other type of edition has little bearing on the fact that that effective thing they had went away.

 Kain wrote:
I wouldn't put any bank on these 6.5e rumors.

And i wouldn't expect GW to make much bank when Ork, BA, SW, GK and possibly DE aren't worth playing.

the ancient wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I wouldn't put any bank on these 6.5e rumors.

And i wouldn't expect GW to make much bank when.... GK... aren't worth playing.

Eh? Now I'm intrigued.

the ancient wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I wouldn't put any bank on these 6.5e rumors.

And i wouldn't expect GW to make much bank when Ork, BA, SW, GK and possibly DE aren't worth playing.

The GK's are pretty solidly mid tier ATM.

DE can put out the hurt too, but it takes a lot more skill/thought than more forgiving armies.

Then again I consider my orks worth playing too.

There's more to life than win loss draw after all

Oh yea my ultimate goal is to have fun. If im getting stomped by turn 3, or stomping my opponent by turn 3, im not having fun and usually he isnt either.

But thats why i kinda shelved my orks for now. I feel like if i dont field bikernobz and more bikernobz my list has a bad habit of not getting a 5+ when i needed it and falling apart in seconds, but on the other hand 2 groups of bikernobz in 1750pts is kinda...lame lol

Well with the rumors of a 6.5 or 7th edition to come out at the same time as the Ork codex, we could see not only a new, buffed up army, but also some different rules to help favor charging and close combat.

If they keep Zagtstrukks ability to charge after a deepstrike and give them the ability to charge flyers, we may see a large increase in Stormboys

 Icculus wrote:
Well with the rumors of a 6.5 or 7th edition to come out at the same time as the Ork codex, we could see not only a new, buffed up army, but also some different rules to help favor charging and close combat.

If they keep Zagtstrukks ability to charge after a deepstrike and give them the ability to charge flyers, we may see a large increase in Stormboys

I doubt they'll be able to charge fliers, but giving them vector strike or hammer of wrath could be fun

I think it will take more than a vector strike on fliers to make Stormboys playable. They cost double thr amount a boy does but they die as easy as a boy. Think about all the Wyverns and Thunderfires... :( They also suffer from low leadership and you can only bring 20. I love Stormboyz a lot. Maybe they will drop a point or two or get something new to keep them alive longer, but i would expext to see bigger changes to more core units, but maybe they will get some love!

Not sure why you think stormboyz charging fliers is unattainable. They do it in Space Marine after all, and illustrate the dangers of it perfectly. While it shouldnt take the flier down automatically in the process, as that would be TOO good, there needs to be a good chance of losing boyz because of the danger involved. Something like lose D3 boyz in the process, before making any attacks.

While that alone wont make me bring them every list, it will give them some uniqueness. They need either a price cut or armor buff as it is imo. Every other jump unit is like 2-4pts more expensive than the stock model, just less toys available. Stormboyz are twice the cost, and less toys available lol.

Yeah, I think some sort of rules for stormboyz attacking fliers would be very feasible, and very fluffy. Getting the balance right will be important though - we don't want stormboyz to be too good at it (unless we get nothing else for anti-fliers), but equally don't want a suicidal rule which no ork player ever wants to use.

Possibly GW is worried about setting a precedent, but fluff-wise it should be simple enough to state that no other race's jump infantry are silly enough to attack fliers?

Hell, I almost hope Orks become a steamroller, as long as that steamrolliness relies on random ork rolls.
The true Ork diehards (you know the guys, they show up and have a blast removing all their models in droves as long as their Shokk gun works properly once and their lootas mow down one flyer) deserve a boost to their army, and they'll appreciate more random hilarity as long as it has the potential to be properly effective.
But that'll stop plenty of power-gamers from jumping in and buying out Orks in order to win tourneys.

Mostly, though, I agree with many of the above posters in that as with the last few Codices released, they'll likely nerf the commonly used stuff, decrease prices and maybe bump the weak stuff, and add something awesome for too much $. With any luck it ends up on-par with the new AM power wise and everyone can go home happy.

Quite frankly i think the Stormboyz are the best orky anti air fluff-wise. The suicide thing might be over the top, but it could be a "chance" to remove D3 boyz not every time to weaken it a bit.

Orks are not good shooters. So outside another plane (please no, it would be basically an alternate Dakkajet which would be annoying having two nearly identical units..plus same FOC) the only way to reliably kill air is with mass fire instead of accurate fire. Well, in order to outshine the lootas in rate of fire theyd have to either nerf lootas (fml) or make it shoot at BS1 regardless of who it aims at, and shoots a LOT more than lootas.
Which has way more potential to be broken, imo, as say 20x BS1 shots is still one hell of a threat if the platform is cheap enough or spammable...or both.

Assaulting stormboyz would remove the potential crazy-powerful hazard to nonfliers, while still being lethal to fliers. What flier outside the Stormraven has a higher than AV10 rear? Assaulting it would be murder, even without a pklaw in the bunch.

I played around with some theory for ork anti air, and like i said earlier the only one that makes sense is a metric crapton of shots, which is also good against ground anyway so not really an AA unit. Everything i came up with that outshined Lootas against air, outshined them against ground too lol.

EDIT: Deffkoptas would work too. Would make bringing that expensive buzzsaw actually worth it since its actually going to be able to charge something for once.

i think the anti armor is a bigger problem than anti air. i'd like too see a s8ap2 ranged weapon that's more reliable than SAG. somethink like the loota upgrade beamy deffguns of DOW2

Anti air can be taken care of

Technically we have one, Kustom Mega Blastas, but we cant get it on anything that actually wants it lol.

Too expensive on killa kanz, and theyre the most ideal atm.

What freakin git would get it for their lootas/burnas mek lol.

They should let us equip our Nobz with those things, at a REASONABLE price not this 25pt each crap lol.

Ive tried building lists around killakan KMB lines. Too expensive, those things depend on being cheap to make them worth bringing lol. KMB almost doubled their worth.

that's my whole point reasonable on price and worth taking .

i just hope GW only makes our codex more 6/7 edition proof, and not screw it up too much

Hollismason wrote:
I'm worried they'll try and take Orks in a serious way. Kind of would be disappointed with out the humour.

ihope they remove the humor on the table top. fluff wise its funny, but when it translates over to.the table, its annoying.

orks are a race bred and raised for war, combat, and killing. they shouldn't be 40k slap stick comedians.

I think there are things that are awesome and fluffy that work on the tabletop, like Stormboyz, getting an extra 6 inches is amazing! But losing one guy on a 1 isnt the worst trade off. Then there is the Shokk Attack gun which is so hilariously awesome, potentially powerful, but overall too high variant for it to be effective.

Lootas are a prime example of making a unit Orky but still being viable, although it is frustrating to roll a couple of 1 and 2s in a row, rolling two or three rounds of 3 shots is awesome!

I'd like to see a few changes to Weirdboyz.
I have a feeling the new Ork codex might feature a few pyskers or painboy variants in the HQ slot that don't take up your 2 options, similar to IG. Well at least I hope we get something like that!

TableTopJosh wrote:

Lootas are a prime example of making a unit Orky but still being viable, although it is frustrating to roll a couple of 1 and 2s in a row, rolling two or three rounds of 3 shots is awesome!

Yeah see that's a prime example of an Orky randomness that I don't find appealing AT ALL. Lootas are priced too expensive to only be firing 1 shot per turn with a BS of 5. Your Lootas are only going to get a chance to fire a maximum of 7 times over the course of a game. It is MUCH more likely they will only get to fire 3-4 times if they are lucky. How is the randomness "Fun" when it's game turn 1 and 2, where you need to get the most mileage out of your Lootas to do well... and you roll 1 or 2 for the first 1-3 turns?

Even when you roll WELL with Lootas you only get 3 shots. Those 3 shots are made at BS5, just about everything gets an Armor save against them, they don't ignore cover... etc. I call that getting your points worth out of them. I don't call it awesome.

Face it, Lootas aren't awesome. They're only awesome because they're the only long-ranged fire power that Orks have to lean on. They're an unstable, rickety crutch on which all our heavy shooting has to lean. And that's just not fun.

You seem to be forgeting something, its a fourth edition gun and for a long time lootas were rewlly good. Then helldrakes, tau and eldar came along and started the ignore cover.trend. lootas are all about averages ,its a certain randomness were at least the worst outcome is not negative. I think youre a being a little over the top, orks will never be a twin linked, point and shoot army and lootas putting out a possible 30 str 7 shots for a 150 points is not bad at all. If you dont think its fun maybe orks are the not the amry for you, go olay eldar and reroll all you shots, oh wait all yhe rerolling, ignore cover nonsense is bad for the game...

I definitely think orks are in for an overhaul IF they are going to measure up to the other codexes. Even if boys get cheaper, they are still boys, and with the amount of fire power out there these days you'll still pick them off the table in fistfuls before they even do anything.

I'd like to see an increase in ork shooting. (Dare I even bring up bumping us to BS3?) It doesn't have to be quality shooting, but BS2 drags everything down, so quantity needs to balance that out. But this quantity can't take the form of cheaper boyz and lootas (even Flash Gitz, Tankbustas, or Kommandos if they become viable). We've got limited FOC slots to work with, making things cheaper and not adding more variety is not a solution. Make Kannons heavy 2 or 3, Lootas D3+1, rokkits assault 3 ap 3.

Then the overspecialization of our units needs to be tuned back a bit. If units are supposed to be good at something, they need to either just be plain good at them, or be able to upgrade or synergize with something else to get the job done. I think just making a few units viable would accomplish this (Tankbustas and Burna Boyz). Then give regular old boy squads a few more options (burnaz), and make Flashgitz your swiss army knife unit via upgrades you purchase.

I'm also going to be severely disappointed if we don't get some sort of MC.... Even if it's a stupid Squiggoth. Also RELIABLE high STR low AP weaponry. Looking at you zzap. Not saying Orks can't be quirky and fun, we just don't need that game once a month where the dice screw you over as much as your opponents models do.

The Ork codex over all needs to have good internal balance not only in each FOC category, but across the entire Codex. If Orks just get cheaper and more hoard like, I can honestly see Ork Players either having trouble getting up in points or having severe FOC problems. I'd rather take stuff that server a roll over just taking some Nobz because I want another Battle Wagon, or need a points filler.

Replying to TC only....You haven't seen anything, there aren't even rumors about what'll change. This is way to early to panic over something.

Yay, we get the be the whipping boy first book for a new edition. Oh goody =/

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Hell, I almost hope Orks become a steamroller, as long as that steamrolliness relies on random ork rolls.
The true Ork diehards (you know the guys, they show up and have a blast removing all their models in droves as long as their Shokk gun works properly once and their lootas mow down one flyer) deserve a boost to their army, and they'll appreciate more random hilarity as long as it has the potential to be properly effective.
But that'll stop plenty of power-gamers from jumping in and buying out Orks in order to win tourneys.

Mostly, though, I agree with many of the above posters in that as with the last few Codices released, they'll likely nerf the commonly used stuff, decrease prices and maybe bump the weak stuff, and add something awesome for too much $. With any luck it ends up on-par with the new AM power wise and everyone can go home happy.

Nah man bring on the powergamer bandwagons. Honestly it just means more cheap ork stuff on ebay after the next big thing comes out.

Hollismason wrote:
I'm worried they'll try and take Orks in a serious way. Kind of would be disappointed with out the humour.

That would be a HUGE mistake. I think orks are the best army for fun games. The powers and damage charts can be hilarious.

 zachwho wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I'm worried they'll try and take Orks in a serious way. Kind of would be disappointed with out the humour.

ihope they remove the humor on the table top. fluff wise its funny, but when it translates over to.the table, its annoying.

orks are a race bred and raised for war, combat, and killing. they shouldn't be 40k slap stick comedians.

And they've been like this since Rogue Trader.

They are both serious and silly, they've got funky tech that works oddly, but in spectacular ways.

If you can't really take both sides, you might want to try some other race.

Unfortunately they've went too far with the random "fun" stuff, where you can't plan a list around the random things.

There is one thing I'm dreading:

A WAAAGH! Table you need to roll on...

IG were the hard counter to Ork armies before their new codex. I can only imagine how much worse it is now, having fearless power blobs with tons of rerolls stopping orks from being effective in CC.

To get Orks on the same level as AM, they're going to need a lot of changes. Horde just won't work with the number of blasts and anti-infantry firepower any IG list can put out now.

Well im.hoping 7th edition nerfs a few things that will help us Warbosses.
Nerf pyshic powers, ie taking away presience from primarus power.
Nerf deathstars. Orks cant handle deathstars, nobs on bikes can barelt compete on.close combat, although id argue boss ona bike still champ for his points, and of course Ghaz, but his special rules are crap right now.
Nerf overwatch. Without gettinf saves and all the rerolls, overwatch killa boyz.
Nerf ignore.cover, to something more fair like reducing cover saves or something.
Nerf allies. Too many force org nonsense. Taking three to four sifferent armies? Blah. We orks would love to ally with each other. I love knights, wish we had something equivalent.
All and all a few of those things would hrlp us grren skins do what we do best, surround people in close combat.

Only 6.5/7th edition rumor that has any real backing to it is Battle Brothers is going byebye, since the cover art says something along the lines of "There Can Be No Allies" or so. I doubt they'd remove allies as a whole, but battle brothers has got to go.

No issues with allies of convenience and desperate allies, but battle brothers break the game in almost every possible combination. And this is coming from a Tau player stating i hate it lol, when my battle brothers are among the most broken (taudar anyone?)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Only 6.5/7th edition rumor that has any real backing to it is Battle Brothers is going byebye, since the cover art says something along the lines of "There Can Be No Allies" or so. I doubt they'd remove allies as a whole, but battle brothers has got to go.

No issues with allies of convenience and desperate allies, but battle brothers break the game in almost every possible combination. And this is coming from a Tau player stating i hate it lol, when my battle brothers are among the most broken (taudar anyone?)

WMG: 7e makes everyone battle brothers with everyone, thus balancing the game.

That this also results in a fortuned and runes of battle buffed Be'lakor with the grimoire of true names going up against Skyblight swarm Flyrants throwing down endurance onto a Screamer Star is of little consequence.

Murrdox wrote:

TableTopJosh wrote:

Lootas are a prime example of making a unit Orky but still being viable, although it is frustrating to roll a couple of 1 and 2s in a row, rolling two or three rounds of 3 shots is awesome!

Yeah see that's a prime example of an Orky randomness that I don't find appealing AT ALL. Lootas are priced too expensive to only be firing 1 shot per turn with a BS of 5. Your Lootas are only going to get a chance to fire a maximum of 7 times over the course of a game. It is MUCH more likely they will only get to fire 3-4 times if they are lucky. How is the randomness "Fun" when it's game turn 1 and 2, where you need to get the most mileage out of your Lootas to do well... and you roll 1 or 2 for the first 1-3 turns?

Even when you roll WELL with Lootas you only get 3 shots. Those 3 shots are made at BS5, just about everything gets an Armor save against them, they don't ignore cover... etc. I call that getting your points worth out of them. I don't call it awesome.

Face it, Lootas aren't awesome. They're only awesome because they're the only long-ranged fire power that Orks have to lean on. They're an unstable, rickety crutch on which all our heavy shooting has to lean. And that's just not fun.

Thiiiiis.

I think if your going to make a unit random, make the variance lean towards being more powerful than other factions equivalents. When autocannons are putting out 2 shots each (on higher BS no less) a dude dropping 1-3 is a straight up disadvantage.

To get Orks on the same level as AM, they're going to need a lot of changes. Horde just won't work with the number of blasts and anti-infantry firepower any IG list can put out now

Was anyone even playing horde though? Its so tedious. It could be auto-win and I'd never bother.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Only 6.5/7th edition rumor that has any real backing to it is Battle Brothers is going byebye, since the cover art says something along the lines of "There Can Be No Allies" or so. I doubt they'd remove allies as a whole, but battle brothers has got to go.

No issues with allies of convenience and desperate allies, but battle brothers break the game in almost every possible combination. And this is coming from a Tau player stating i hate it lol, when my battle brothers are among the most broken (taudar anyone?)

Woah, sweet. Link for that cover art by any chance?

 Dakkamite wrote:

To get Orks on the same level as AM, they're going to need a lot of changes. Horde just won't work with the number of blasts and anti-infantry firepower any IG list can put out now

Was anyone even playing horde though? Its so tedious. It could be auto-win and I'd never bother.

I play Horde lists.

But my double living tide Dual FOC Tyranid list is apparently forever banned from tournaments until shub niggurath swallows the sun.

(I'd field more but then I think they'd upgrade it to "when Azathoth awakens".)

Horde lists arent bad if you dont sit there for 10-15 minutes pondering your next move like a lot of people tend to do. Its not that they arent effective, theyre just annoying since you have to keep moving and moving fast or you draw the game out.
My last game i was playing 2500pt Tau vs Chaos/Demons. I doubled my opponent in numbers, and he wasnt thin either lol. He was shocked i was able to play so fast and effectively, i told him its the Ork in me being used to moving 100 boyz in a 1000pt game lol

Also that cover art WAS on the 40k website, it wasnt even announced what it was for it was just a new cover available for pre-purchase the 24th. Not seeing it now for some reason.

TableTopJosh wrote:
You seem to be forgeting something, its a fourth edition gun and for a long time lootas were rewlly good. Then helldrakes, tau and eldar came along and started the ignore cover.trend. lootas are all about averages ,its a certain randomness were at least the worst outcome is not negative. I think youre a being a little over the top, orks will never be a twin linked, point and shoot army and lootas putting out a possible 30 str 7 shots for a 150 points is not bad at all. If you dont think its fun maybe orks are the not the amry for you, go olay eldar and reroll all you shots, oh wait all yhe rerolling, ignore cover nonsense is bad for the game...

No, you misunderstand me. Back in 4th and 5th, Lootas were pretty great. But in 4th and 5th, Lootas were a "Fire Support" sort of unit. You used them to try to pop those Transports in the first couple turns. Maybe you used them to cause some glancing wounds to a Dreadnaught and try to Stun or Shake it.

But then 6th Edition came along and just hit Orks with the beat-stick.... hard. Here's just a few of the highlights. There's a lot more than this.

- Killa Kans and Dreads : useless
- Our PowerKlaws : Challenged in every combat to ensure they're useless.
- Our Battlewagons: Now our Boyz take more casualties when our Battlewagons blow up, and our Battlewagons blow up a hell of a lot more often thanks to AP2 and Open-topped ensuring that ANY penetrating hit from an AP2 weapon (of which there are TONS) means they explode on a 4+.
- Our fliers: Mostly overpriced and useless.
- Thanks to casualty removal from the front our Boyz can never footslog across the field.
- Thanks to changes in Assault, using Trukks with a paldry 12 Orks isn't viable anymore, even in swarms.

So after all that, what are you left with as one of the strengths of the Ork codex? Shooting. Who are our best shooters? Lootas. Except they're not GOOD enough in 6th Edition for Orks to lean on them that heavily and still do well. Lootas used to be a balanced part of a good Ork army, but Boyz were the bread and butter. Lootas are not good enough to be the bread and butter of our army, and that's what 6th Edition has done to us.

In 5th edition, yeah Lootas were awesome. In 6th, they just can't perform to the degree we need them to.


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 Kain wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

To get Orks on the same level as AM, they're going to need a lot of changes. Horde just won't work with the number of blasts and anti-infantry firepower any IG list can put out now

Was anyone even playing horde though? Its so tedious. It could be auto-win and I'd never bother.

I play Horde lists.

But my double living tide Dual FOC Tyranid list is apparently forever banned from tournaments until shub niggurath swallows the sun.

(I'd field more but then I think they'd upgrade it to "when Azathoth awakens".)

After 6th Edition came out, my Tyranid friend could pretty much destroy my entire army, no matter what units I brought, with just two Flyrants. Granted, this was back in the days of the last Codex when Flyrants had Iron Arm, which made them much tougher. But after about a year of that, I put my Orks on the shelf. I haven't tried them against Tyranids in their new codex.

Except now my Tyranid friend is using 2 Crones and 2 Flyrants. I just don't think I'll bother. Even with two Dakkajets I've got nothing to compete with that.

Actually theyre not as bad as you may think. Yes theres 4 of them in the air and yes theyre fairly tough, but theyre no more than T6 now and thats huge. I feel your pain in the old tyranid dex vs orks though. I felt like the flyrant was the only thing i gave a crap about because i either couldnt hurt it, hurt it on 6s, or had to somehow get Ghazzy in combat with it. Unless he biffed his iron arm (which never happens) even my lootas couldnt take it out that well.

Now that theyre fixated T6 they die a lot faster than before. Every time the old flyrants would flop and be T6 or T7 i would focus fire the crap out of them with anything that could still hurt them because i knew if it got T8 at turn 3/4 then i was boned as i couldnt even hurt it in melee w/o pklaws, which are challenged out or splatted before they can swing.

Its still tough as nails as orks but it isnt faceroll anymore. Try it again, you may notice a drastic difference. Tyranid dex in short (IMO) was nerf the big bad bug, buff the rest so theyre all "good" and none is "nasty" anymore.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Actually theyre not as bad as you may think. Yes theres 4 of them in the air and yes theyre fairly tough, but theyre no more than T6 now and thats huge. I feel your pain in the old tyranid dex vs orks though. I felt like the flyrant was the only thing i gave a crap about because i either couldnt hurt it, hurt it on 6s, or had to somehow get Ghazzy in combat with it. Unless he biffed his iron arm (which never happens) even my lootas couldnt take it out that well.

Now that theyre fixated T6 they die a lot faster than before. Every time the old flyrants would flop and be T6 or T7 i would focus fire the crap out of them with anything that could still hurt them because i knew if it got T8 at turn 3/4 then i was boned as i couldnt even hurt it in melee w/o pklaws, which are challenged out or splatted before they can swing.

Its still tough as nails as orks but it isnt faceroll anymore. Try it again, you may notice a drastic difference. Tyranid dex in short (IMO) was nerf the big bad bug, buff the rest so theyre all "good" and none is "nasty" anymore.

The Tyranid book as a whole really mostly just has living artillery, dakkafexes, and skyblight swarms going for it.

Your average Tyranid list just wants to cram in as many skyblights and FMCs as possible with a bare minimum of anything else.

It's every bit as monobuild as the old book's Tervigon and Flyrant spam.

On the subject of Lootas you could have the # of shots tied to BS like that one new Tyranid model no one uses:

Roll for shots D3 as is now:

3 shots at BS1
2 shots at BS 2
1 shot at BS 3

Basically the more the Loota fires, the less accurate he is.

Still allows for awesome randomness.

 PipeAlley wrote:
On the subject of Lootas you could have the # of shots tied to BS like that one new Tyranid model no one uses:

Roll for shots D3 as is now:

3 shots at BS1
2 shots at BS 2
1 shot at BS 3

Basically the more the Loota fires, the less accurate he is.

Still allows for awesome randomness.

confusing, and the expected number of hits is the same. Unless he is moving and all the shots would be BS1 anyway.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 zachwho wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I'm worried they'll try and take Orks in a serious way. Kind of would be disappointed with out the humour.

ihope they remove the humor on the table top. fluff wise its funny, but when it translates over to.the table, its annoying.

orks are a race bred and raised for war, combat, and killing. they shouldn't be 40k slap stick comedians.

And they've been like this since Rogue Trader.

They are both serious and silly, they've got funky tech that works oddly, but in spectacular ways.

If you can't really take both sides, you might want to try some other race.

i do play other races, orks are in a dusty box in the closet.i know they've been random and "funky" since 3rd, doesn't make
my opinion any different. i hope they remove some of the silliness from them. a galaxy conquering race of warbred killing machines doesn't compute as silly to me.