By guy I mean single unit - regardless whether it is an IC, just a singular "infantry" (like Mephiston) or an MC.


The contestants start 24.1" from each other on open terrain.

My entry would be the Avatar of Khaine, with the Fast Shot, Crushing Blow, Disarming Strike (you and opponent roll D6, you get +1 if your WS is higher, if you score higher, you can reduce one of the opponent's weapons to a cc-weapon) and Monster Hunter.

245 points

WS 10
BS 10
S 7
T 6
W 5
I 10
A 5
LD Fearless
3+/5++ sv. (Daemon)
immune to heat weapons & soulblaze
Fleet & Battle Focus (so average move distance of 10" and still able to shoot; or move 6", shoot, and re-roll one or both charge dice)
dual shot Meltagun

Kandarus and wraithknight gain my votes

There was a 20something page thread about this already. Its decidedly Abbadon.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504016.page

 iGuy91 wrote:
There was a 20something page thread about this already. Its decidedly Abbadon.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504016.page

This. Abaddon will take your lunch money. Skarbrand and Swarmlord will mess anyone without EW up pretty badly, but the fact that many of the melee badasses has it lessens their strength somewhat.

Wait, we get a whole unit?

20 khorne berzerkers, champ with fist, and icon. Gets the reroll for charge range, so is likely to be the charger, not the chargee. Add to that a marine statline and equipment, except Ws5, and S5 on the charge, plus free extra attacks. They'd clean out that avatar pretty quickly.

Of course, it also costs a lot more, but that didn't seem to matter.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
There was a 20something page thread about this already. Its decidedly Abbadon.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504016.page

This. Abaddon will take your lunch money. Skarbrand and Swarmlord will mess anyone without EW up pretty badly, but the fact that many of the melee badasses has it lessens their strength somewhat.

These are mostly melee only competitions. It could be very easy to kill Abaddon without him landing a blow by adding in shooting.

Blood crushers are the most deadly to anything without a 2+ save. Against a 2+ save they bounce off, but they can drown most targets in wounds and a few Axes of Khorne, meaning they're likely to wreck anything in CC, since 2+ saves don't tent to be found on a large unit regularly. They're also likely to get the charge because they charge d6+6" with fleet.

Give me a unit, and they will find a way to roll it. 2++ excluded, of course, but nothing can roll a 2++.

Pretty keen on Ghazghull myself.

However, that immune to soul blaze on the Avatar could change my mind

Sorry it is a Necron Lord w/ 2+, 3++, Scythe, Res Orb, and MSS.

Even if you don't get shackled you still have nasty melee, Great inv save, and if he dies he gets up %50 of the time.

-Redacted-
I derp'd

Wouldn't Draigo be a pretty tough nut to crack? 2+/3+ with T5 and EW. Anything that's a daemon or psyker will be getting lumped at S10 with a master-crafted force weapon. If he gets the charge, daemons and psykers will also be at I1 because of 'nades.

Honestly, tho, I don't know the stats for a lot of chars, so that may be pretty weak nowadays...

Yeah and Draigo has the problem of only an AP 3 weapon.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Pretty keen on Ghazghull myself.

However, that immune to soul blaze on the Avatar could change my mind

Soul Blaze once killed a riptide.

Soul Blaze is very powerful, and the Avatar of Khaine is the most OP character because he ignores it.

This tongue in cheek post was brought to you by this lengthy bitch session

Wasn't Language! the new big melee in the hood? T5 2+/3++/FnP plus IWND and EW? 12" move, Jink, S8 AP1 or S4 AP3

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, we get a whole unit?

20 khorne berzerkers, champ with fist, and icon. Gets the reroll for charge range, so is likely to be the charger, not the chargee. Add to that a marine statline and equipment, except Ws5, and S5 on the charge, plus free extra attacks. They'd clean out that avatar pretty quickly.

Of course, it also costs a lot more, but that didn't seem to matter.

The champ will be forced to challenge the Avatar - and the Avatar, being only 1 model, is forced to accept. Avatar kills it; next turn it can be killed by the zerkers, but it'll take a lot before dying.

20 fearless models in power armor with free attacks and more.

That beats up everything else so far.

There are things that can then beat up those berzerkers, of course, like anything that spams Ap3, but it won't be as good against the broad range of targets. You need to be the best against everything, not merely a hard counter to something else that already is.

 Ailaros wrote:
20 fearless models in power armor with free attacks and more.

That beats up everything else so far.

There are things that can then beat up those berzerkers, of course, like anything that spams Ap3, but it won't be as good against the broad range of targets. You need to be the best against everything, not merely a hard counter to something else that already is.

*reiterates earlier point*

Scipio Africanus wrote:Blood crushers are the most deadly to anything without a 2+ save.

You can only take them in a squad up to size 9. They only have a 6+/5++. They only have Ap3 on the one hand, and they don't have enough weight of attacks on the other. They're multi-wound models dangerously susceptible to instant death, and they have Ld7 without being fearless.

They are not the best melee unit.

In fact, the only thing they'd be all that extra good against are berzerkers, but as I said...

Ailaros wrote:There are things that can then beat up those berzerkers, of course, like anything that spams Ap3, but it won't be as good against the broad range of targets. You need to be the best against everything, not merely a hard counter to something else that already is.

There are all sorts of combo power units people can come up with.

I'll stick with a singular model. Abaddon or a Bloodthirster are pretty beast. I think the Bloodthirster would woop up on swarmlord, but he's still worth a mention.

30 Daemonettes, w/ respective sergeant equivalent tooled to the teeth in rewards and icons.

For single models, Iron Father McPunchington.

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, we get a whole unit?

20 khorne berzerkers, champ with fist, and icon. Gets the reroll for charge range, so is likely to be the charger, not the chargee. Add to that a marine statline and equipment, except Ws5, and S5 on the charge, plus free extra attacks. They'd clean out that avatar pretty quickly.

Of course, it also costs a lot more, but that didn't seem to matter.

By my mathhammer, the Avatar would crap on a 20-man Beserker blob.

Their extra attacks and increased strength from charging are wasted since they have to stand there holding their nuts for the first round of combat due to the champion needing to challenge.

Single model? Iron father SmashFu**er. (I forget, what's dakkas profanity policy?)

Bike master with the gorgon chain, THammer, LClaw, and a bike/Artificier armor. Put him in a command squad for 4+ fnp. He'll tank anyone. Seriously, this load out makes me want to change armies.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
wraithknight gain my votes

Are you high?

Karandras is a beast though, but lacks a ++ save.

Asurmen is worth a mention too. His Soulrazor ability means he's a chance to take out the most choppy CC monsters, and his D3 warlord traits can roll up some sweet options.

Death Company /w 30x models
All equipped with dual thunder hammers and jump packs
Take Lemartes as an upgrade
3000 pts

That gives you 120 attacks at S10 and AP2 that re-roll to hit and to wound, plus 30 Hammer of Wrath attacks at S5.

Death Company's absurdly high cap on model count per unit makes it sort of stand out (3000 point units for the lulz). They're not cost-effective, but they'll win against basically anything in the game through sheer weight of numbers.

Smash face would die to quite a few ICs with AP2 weapons that strike at high initiative.

 Wingeds wrote:
Smash face would die to quite a few ICs with AP2 weapons that strike at high initiative.

Like who? He has a 3++ and a 4+ fnp usually, at T5. That takes some work to cut through.

 jifel wrote:

 Wingeds wrote:
Smash face would die to quite a few ICs with AP2 weapons that strike at high initiative.

Like who? He has a 3++ and a 4+ fnp usually, at T5. That takes some work to cut through.

His insane saves are really the only thing going for him. The Chapter Master statline is not particularly astronomical - he can't dish out damage the same way he can take it.

i would like to throw Urien Rakarth and a squad of grotesques in the ring. The Clone field keeps Urien in a fight forever.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 Wingeds wrote:
Smash face would die to quite a few ICs with AP2 weapons that strike at high initiative.

Like who? He has a 3++ and a 4+ fnp usually, at T5. That takes some work to cut through.

His insane saves are really the only thing going for him. The Chapter Master statline is not particularly astronomical - he can't dish out damage the same way he can take it.

4 Str 8 AP2 attacks at Ws6 are nothing to sneeze at. That's what makes him formidable. He's a tough nut to crack with respectable damage output. He doesn't win in a round, he wears you down over several.

And after one wound gets through, you're swinging at his level courtesy of the Thunder Hammer. If you think about it, Abbadon (who, aside from the Swarmlord, used to be undisputed top dog) doesn't even have the durability of this guy.

I'm not sure of every rule Smashface has, but Abaddon and a Bloodthirster both strike first with AP2. Lelith might even give him a run for his money with amazing dice rolls.

What gives him 4+ FNP? I would think it would just be 5+ standard, the Iron Hands special rules not stacking. And does he have Eternal Warrior?

Edit: Just read up on him, not a bad character, but a Bloodthirster could just smash attack, still hit more than you, and after 1 round with a few wounds done to the chapter master, the next round would just wreck him with normal attacks or ID him with Smashes depending on IWND rolls. And the thirster can get pretty similar saves with good reward rolls or warp storm.

 Wingeds wrote:
I'm not sure of every rule Smashface has, but Abaddon and a Bloodthirster both strike first with AP2. Lelith might even give him a run for his money with amazing dice rolls.

What gives him 4+ FNP? I would think it would just be 5+ standard, the Iron Hands special rules not stacking. And does he have Eternal Warrior?

2+, 3++, EW, 6+ FNP (Iron Hands Chapter Tactics), +1 FNP (Gorgon's Chain), toting a Thunder Hammer and whatever else you want your second weapon to be, on a bike for T5.

4+ FNP is a possibility via the Clan Raukaan Warlord Table (gives another +1 FNP).

It would definitely be a close one then.

At the risk of this being a put on the "anecdote" page, as it only happened once in all of the one time I've used him...

Fluff army war between by Space Puppies and my buddies Daemons.

I don't remember the exact list, but I wanted to bring some models that no one ever fields, and I encouraged my buddy to do the same.

My fluff bits were Lukas the Trickster, with full compliment of blood claws, a wolf priest, and an iron priest.

So I get the warlord trait that lets me take my warlords unit infilitrating. Attach wolf priest to the blood claws, swing them in on the sides. They (with Lukas' help) tear through cultists like tissue paper, wipe a squad of bloodletters with sheer rage, and get locked in assault with Skarbrand and another squad of 'Letters. All that's left is Lukas, toe to toe with the big man and surrounded by BLs. He takes his last wound, I roll Last Laugh, and get a 6. Epic.

Smashf***er has a 4+ fnp when part of a command squad. And it takes a while for a bloodthirster to grind him down, he'll kill the bloodthirster first as he only has a 5++.

Bloodthirster can get 4+ FNP as well as 4+ invuln, and IWND. Also has a higher WS.

Mister Bloodthirstier or Avatar meet the mighty Bob

HQ: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (1#, 63 pts)
Empyrean Brain Mines
Nemesis Daemonhammer
Grimoire of True Names
PSYK-OUT GRENADES

 iGuy91 wrote:
There was a 20something page thread about this already. Its decidedly Abbadon.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504016.page

Lolnope.

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
Eternal blade
Forewarning
Iron Arm
Warp speed/Endurance

Grimoire of fate casted on him.

This should crush abaddon with ease.

Hell, I dare any of you to find something that can beat this one on one without a D strength weapon.

You won't find it.

Skarbrand beats Abaddon anyway. And the Avatar can easily strip him of his combat ability.

Ironfather Smashfether also has a good shot, and with a good roll on the warlord traits table he should win handily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Smashfether has EW.

A full stacked DP of Tzeentch with every roll in his favour will probably come out on top. A lot of luck needed with the random tables, but if he gets everything he needs and successfully casts it, then there will be very few who can oppose him.

On a side note, why are people listing the Bloodthirster here? He isn't even the best greater daemon in cc. A LoC with the right psychic powers (particularly number 5 of divination, giving him re roll misses, wounds and saves) could take down a bloodthirster. A GUO with iron arm would be a tough proposition for the thirster as well, T10 and ID balesword. Thirster has nothing to stop ID attacks.

Depends what you are talking about it going against in close combat. One on one? Termis? Large ap3 unit? Horde?
Against any ap3 or worse unit without a good invuln, the death co dread with talons on the charge is mathmatically going to kill more than anyone else. Give it prescience and it feels like cheating.
6 ws5 s7 attacks rerolling to hit and reolling to wound, no armour saves allowed, and any wounds inflicted gain another attack, ad infinitum. Usually 3+ to hit with reroll followed by a 2+ to wound with reroll. That is A LOT of kills.

I'd love to be able to put forward an ork character but unfortunately ghazzy isn't quite good enough to stand up against anyone with disarming strike.

though I think big mek buzzgob in a kustom klawstompa would have some chance.12 hullpoints to remove, AV13 and 12 attacks on a double-distance charge with strength D might do the trick on most of them. all they have to do is not completely destroy it & they're dead. you need a minimum of 4 explodes results, and even at strength ten with hitting on 3's you'd need 12 attacks to do 4 penetrating hits. stompa will realistically need only 2 hits to kill anything, and chances are it'll get 6.

so the best character in combat is a klawstompa. 'course I understand da roolz!!!

Who was second place behind the Swarmlord previously? I'd imagine they'd be top dog now.

No takers for my Daemon Prince/LoC?

 Kain wrote:
No takers for my Daemon Prince/LoC?

I'm with you on a fully buffed DP of Tzeentch. But under normal circumstances I don't think he'd beat the top competition. He would need another model successfully using Grimoire on him, as well as rolling iron arm and successfully casting it. Along with this you've also got to help for good greater powers. But yeah, if all of this happens then he has a good chance. LD9 hurts vs MSS though.

I love the LoC, and it is great at a variety of roles, cc vs most things included. However, besides giving him a 4+ invulnerable save with divination, and then buffing him with grimoire to give him a 2++ re-rollable save, I don't think he would come beat out the top competition. His lack of a decent reliable save and no eternal warrior means he will be on the backfoot, and WS6, I6 are good, but not the best. I'd say he is a strong contender vs most targets, but I don't see him beating the likes of abbadon or Smashf***er.

50 Guard with inq with rad nades, psyhcotroke, prescience forewarning, few power axes in there and dante or celestine for hit and run and a few priests for fearless and re roll to wound. Trumps all with a nice roll on the psychotroke, grinds everything else out.

 Kain wrote:
No takers for my Daemon Prince/LoC?

Does it have a greater than 50% chance of taking down the competition, including all random rolls for psychic powers, the Grimoire and psychic tests?

MarkyMark wrote:
50 Guard with inq with rad nades, psyhcotroke, prescience forewarning, few power axes in there and dante or celestine for hit and run and a few priests for fearless and re roll to wound. Trumps all with a nice roll on the psychotroke, grinds everything else out.

Which one of them is the "deadliest melee guy"?

 Sir Arun wrote:
My entry would be the Avatar of Khaine, with the Fast Shot, Crushing Blow, Disarming Strike (you and opponent roll D6, you get +1 if your WS is higher, if you score higher, you can reduce one of the opponent's weapons to a cc-weapon) and Monster Hunter.

Your Avatar build auto-fails. He can only have 2 Exarch powers. You gave him 4.

Belakor. Anything he can't kill in combat he can fly around throwing psychic shriek at until it dies

Psychic Shriek isn't exactly a "melee" ability...

Just for fun, i'll mention the Trygon Prime. Can't quite deal with everything, but can do some hurt. Mine took down a Bloodthurster before, luck was partly why, but whatever.

Prime. w/ Reaper, Maw Claws, Regen, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Ymgarl Factor, Acid Blood & Toxin Spike. A whopping 415pts

Has a few tricks like I7, 2+ sv, IWND on 4+, loadsa atks but only at WS5, Shadow in the Warp potentially hurting psychers.

 Ailaros wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:Blood crushers are the most deadly to anything without a 2+ save.

You can only take them in a squad up to size 9. They only have a 6+/5++. They only have Ap3 on the one hand, and they don't have enough weight of attacks on the other. They're multi-wound models dangerously susceptible to instant death, and they have Ld7 without being fearless.

They are not the best melee unit.

In fact, the only thing they'd be all that extra good against are berzerkers, but as I said...

I love how you note with glee that they have a 5++, but harmlessly forget they have access to GoTN and have daemonic instability, citing that they "don't have fearless"

They're arguably better than fearless. They only lose wounds from combat if they lose combat, which they rarely do and you KNOW they will have a 3++ if you're running them. With a pair of heralds, maybe karanak, they're hardly susceptible to instant death. They're also FAR more likely to get into combat than a unit of 10 khorne berzerkers.

9 Blokes puts out 32 S6AP3, 9 S5AP- attacks and 5 S6AP2 attacks on the charge. With two heralds they're arguably going to hit harder than any unit, and karanak makes sure they can get into combat turn two.

Edit

WHat is the Goargon Chain? I dont see it in Codex Space marines or in Army builder

Iron hands clan raukaan supplement. It gives buffs to IWND, grants EW as well as a few other buffs and requires no hands to use. If the model starts to suffer wounds it starts to lose effectiveness though.

Abaddon or Azreal with his 5 str 6 attacks would get my vote.

I don't think some get how nasty this guy is to any deamon. I break it down


Mister Bloodthirstier or Avatar meet the mighty Bob

HQ: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (1#, 63 pts)
PSYK-OUT GRENADES = Makes you IN 1 on charge
Empyrean Brain Mines= pass IN or can have no attacks or no anything
Grimoire of True Names any deamon in base contact -5 WS -5 IN - 5 leadership.
Nemesis Daemonhammer= x2 str. AP 2 any unsaved wounds must pass LD check or die. or is a force weapon too.

sadly only really deadly against deamons

BlaxicanX wrote:By my mathhammer, the Avatar would crap on a 20-man Beserker blob.

Well, to start with, there's a 1 in 9 chance that the avatar won't kill the champion on the first round, in which case the avatar is going to stumble out of the challenge missing a wound or two.

In those cases where he doesn't, though, then it's 19 berzerkers against an avatar. That's 19 krak grenades that still hit on 4's, which chisel off a wound or two. The next round it's 16 krak grenades, and now the avatar is down to 2 wounds. Then it's 13 krak grenades and the avatar is at 1 wound. Then it's 10 krak grenades and the avatar is very likely dead. Even if you give it another round, it's 7 krak grenades, and the avatar is really very likely dead by now.

It's possible for the avatar to win if the khorne player has really bad rolling, but most of the time the berzerkers should win.

Kain wrote:Grimoire of fate casted on him.

So now you're no longer talking about a single unit. It's a two-unit combo of DP + grimoire holder.

And yeah, you've got to get an awful lot of die rolls to pass to get him into uber-mode. Most of the time he'll be rather worse. A more consistent fighter will do better most of the time.

MarkyMark wrote:50 Guard with inq with rad nades, psyhcotroke, prescience forewarning, few power axes in there and dante or celestine for hit and run and a few priests for fearless and re roll to wound. Trumps all with a nice roll on the psychotroke, grinds everything else out.

Which one of them is the "deadliest melee guy"?

The OP said unit, not just individual model.

Not that the blob would be all that good. Yes, the rad grenades might do something interesting, but half the time it's completely useless against those berzerkers' killing power. When it's a dud, the berzerkers start out by killing 31 guardsmen. 20 guardsmen vs. 20 berzerkers is going to end poorly for the guardsmen.

Even then, though, a guard blob doesn't get psychotroke grenades, nor does it get dante. If you're expanding the scope of "unit" to "unit and any and all independent characters that it's possible to cram into the unit," then I guess the best unit in close combat is, as you say, a 50-man guard blob, except it also includes EVERY SINGLE INDEPENDENT CHARACTER from every imperium codex.

But that's a little silly.

Transcendent C'Tan.

1 Imperial Knight Errant

anything that doesnt do 6 hullpoints by init4 is gonna face strength D, and if he does fall he might take them with him.

How bout a unit of 10 Deathwing Knights? Weakness would be a challenge but you could always decline it and still go for 18x Str10 Ap2 attacks (27 on charge). Should hurt most things fairly well.
The 2+/3++ and potential T5 would help get a second round to mop up as well (although much weaker... except maybe against CSM),

 Exergy wrote:
1 Imperial Knight Errant

anything that doesnt do 6 hullpoints by init4 is gonna face strength D, and if he does fall he might take them with him.

Psh...it's the stomp that does work...oh sorry Calgar...stepped on ya...removed from the board.

I find the lack of Be'Lakor in this thread disturbing. He is pretty much built to take down heavy hitters 1 on 1. He can just keep casting invisibility on himself and make even the avatar needing 5s to hit, and makes the very annoying chapter master highly unlikely to even touch him.

 herpguy wrote:
I find the lack of Be'Lakor in this thread disturbing. He is pretty much built to take down heavy hitters 1 on 1. He can just keep casting invisibility on himself and make even the avatar needing 5s to hit, and makes the very annoying chapter master highly unlikely to even touch him.

I find the problem with Be'lakor, is that his durability is low. Invisibility will help certainly (it will make most things hit him on 5's instead of 4's, being WS9, so a slight improvement), however with T5 and a 4++ save without outside help he will not be able to take damage very well. His damage output is quite good, but anything durable stands a good chance of wearing him down imo.

That's definitely a problem yes, but when you consider most of the top dogs presented here are taking wounds on their invul saves it's not that bad. Plus his weapon is master crafted and always wounds on 2s.
Invisibility makes your enemy WS1 so everybody would be hitting on 5s.
He may not be as durable as the annoying kitchen sink chapter master but he would beat him down in a challenge.
With invisibility up Be'Lakor could reliably stomp anything. Even without invisibility he can usually beat anybody (and he probably should when he costs 350 lol)

He may not be as durable as the annoying kitchen sink chapter master but he would beat him down in a challenge.

I'm not so sure it would be that clear cut though. Be'lakor will deal about 1 wound to the chaptermaster, after saves and FNP.
The chapter master would deal a little under half back to be'lakor.

Be'lakor shouldeventually come out on top, but it will take a few turns, especially if the chapter master regenerates a few wounds thanks to IWND, and there is a definite risk to the daemon, especially if invisibility fails.

How would Be'lakor do against the other forerunners?

Even the Swarmlord roflstomps Be'lakor, and she's dropped substantially in power.

Its either belakor or a GUO with mstry lvl 3 warp speed, iron arm, balesword, 2 greaters.

I think belakor is the strongest beatstick in the game by the numbers.

GUO with iron arm can be T9, 4+ FNP, 5+ Inuln, 3+ armor,(assuming greaters go that way), instant death. Pretty much destruction incarnate.

P.S belakor destroys the new swarmlord..

Does he have some sort of Instant Death I'm currently unaware of or is he capable of inflicting 10 wounds against a T6 model in a single round?

Be'Lakor EASILY kills the Swarmlord.

Also a GUO is T7 base so can be T10 with iron arm. T6 can't even touch it if it gets boosted that far. However, with random rolls and mastery level 9 I would never say iron arm is a given.

Also a GUO has instant. death from the balesword, which is a guaranteed greater reward.


Without factoring in random things (pretty much any Daemon GD who rolls amazing greater rewards and/or psychic powers could roflstomp the whole game) I have to say Be'Lakor would come out on top. The annoying SM chapter master would be the hardest to kill but would be slowly destroyed by Be'Lakor.

Ah, I see, Be'lakor has Eternal Warrior, so it would come to a battle of attrition, in which case Be'lakor would come out on top thanks to getting Invisibility 50% of the time and, I'm assuming, more attacks.

Statistically, a kitted Overlord/Phaeron will always win more than half the time.

Arjac rockfist all the way

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kain wrote:
No takers for my Daemon Prince/LoC?

I'm with you on a fully buffed DP of Tzeentch. But under normal circumstances I don't think he'd beat the top competition. He would need another model successfully using Grimoire on him, as well as rolling iron arm and successfully casting it. Along with this you've also got to help for good greater powers. But yeah, if all of this happens then he has a good chance. LD9 hurts vs MSS though.

I love the LoC, and it is great at a variety of roles, cc vs most things included. However, besides giving him a 4+ invulnerable save with divination, and then buffing him with grimoire to give him a 2++ re-rollable save, I don't think he would come beat out the top competition. His lack of a decent reliable save and no eternal warrior means he will be on the backfoot, and WS6, I6 are good, but not the best. I'd say he is a strong contender vs most targets, but I don't see him beating the likes of abbadon or Smashf***er.

Lord of Change; Misfortune, Forewarning, Precognition, Daemonic Resiliance (4+ FNP), Corpulence (+1W and ITWND) and Cleaving Blow (6's to hit are double Str)

So I believe OP said melee character (so no vector striking and avoiding combat). Cleaving strike is a fun extra, alternatively the lord of change can Smash, against smashfether, he has a 4++ rerollable followed by 4+ FNP coupled with 6W and ITWND, misfortune means he has good odds of landing a wound on (is smashfether the gorgon chain dude?) which gets successively worse the more wounds he takes, similarly the against the SM version he'll win the battle of attrition. He doesn't like anyone with instant-death (Balesword GUO or Daemon Prince) or Force Weapons (mainly Draigo) but against everyone else he's a pretty solid contender I believe (the inquistor is wounding on 4's so statistically requires 4 wounds to get through with the daemon hammer, assuming his toys dont work every turn, like psykout grenades, he returns to I6 and squishs said inquistor).

 herpguy wrote:
Be'Lakor EASILY kills the Swarmlord.

Also a GUO is T7 base so can be T10 with iron arm. T6 can't even touch it if it gets boosted that far. However, with random rolls and mastery level 9 I would never say iron arm is a given.

Also a GUO has instant. death from the balesword, which is a guaranteed greater reward.


Without factoring in random things (pretty much any Daemon GD who rolls amazing greater rewards and/or psychic powers could roflstomp the whole game) I have to say Be'Lakor would come out on top. The annoying SM chapter master would be the hardest to kill but would be slowly destroyed by Be'Lakor.

Yea I was just saying the ideal scenario for the GUO makes him like basically unbeatable in CC. Belakor will always be better though because wings. The space marines/not giant daemon units just dont compare in CC.

 CaptainJay wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kain wrote:
No takers for my Daemon Prince/LoC?

I'm with you on a fully buffed DP of Tzeentch. But under normal circumstances I don't think he'd beat the top competition. He would need another model successfully using Grimoire on him, as well as rolling iron arm and successfully casting it. Along with this you've also got to help for good greater powers. But yeah, if all of this happens then he has a good chance. LD9 hurts vs MSS though.

I love the LoC, and it is great at a variety of roles, cc vs most things included. However, besides giving him a 4+ invulnerable save with divination, and then buffing him with grimoire to give him a 2++ re-rollable save, I don't think he would come beat out the top competition. His lack of a decent reliable save and no eternal warrior means he will be on the backfoot, and WS6, I6 are good, but not the best. I'd say he is a strong contender vs most targets, but I don't see him beating the likes of abbadon or Smashf***er.

Lord of Change; Misfortune, Forewarning, Precognition, Daemonic Resiliance (4+ FNP), Corpulence (+1W and ITWND) and Cleaving Blow (6's to hit are double Str)

So I believe OP said melee character (so no vector striking and avoiding combat). Cleaving strike is a fun extra, alternatively the lord of change can Smash, against smashfether, he has a 4++ rerollable followed by 4+ FNP coupled with 6W and ITWND, misfortune means he has good odds of landing a wound on (is smashfether the gorgon chain dude?) which gets successively worse the more wounds he takes, similarly the against the SM version he'll win the battle of attrition. He doesn't like anyone with instant-death (Balesword GUO or Daemon Prince) or Force Weapons (mainly Draigo) but against everyone else he's a pretty solid contender I believe (the inquistor is wounding on 4's so statistically requires 4 wounds to get through with the daemon hammer, assuming his toys dont work every turn, like psykout grenades, he returns to I6 and squishs said inquistor).

I agree with almost everything in your post. The one thing I would change however is the Cleaving blow.
Tzeentch daemons imo should take the staff of change instead. Gaining str 8 all the time for only 10 points is a great advantage. Very few targets are above T6, so you can wound most things on a 2+ without needing to Smash, considerably boosting your damage output vs tougher targets. It is also great for ID'ing T4 models, though I doubt there will be many such things in a thread such as thing.

Cleaving blow potentially gives you a str 10 hit, but if you need str 10 hits then you can always use smash instead.

I agree with the above. If you have extra points the staff of change is the best 10 point weapon you can buy. T8 is the magic threshold that lets you wound almost anything on 2+. Plus it is a guaranteed result.

a deamonhammer only needs one would to kill any Deamon with out EW instantly. Daemonbane plus being a force weapon gives it two ways to do it. and as long as in base contact -5 to IN.

Steel Angel wrote:
a deamonhammer only needs one would to kill any Deamon with out EW instantly. Daemonbane plus being a force weapon gives it two ways to do it. and as long as in base contact -5 to IN.

And? Inevitably there will be some individual counters to even the toughest Characters in 40k. This doesn't mean that daemons aren't in the running for "deadliest non-FW melee guy"

With this said however, Daemons often have very high initiative values. Nurgle Daemons will be in trouble, but most others will be striking either before or at the same time as an unwieldy weapon. A Daemonprince with his I9 would laugh off the pathetic initiative modifier and smear the inquisitor/Greyknight across the battlefield before he even has a change to be hit.

People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

Exactly, you can't factor random powers here.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's no forgeworld character in 40K that is better than the regular guys, or am I missing something?

 herpguy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

Exactly, you can't factor random powers here.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's no forgeworld character in 40K that is better than the regular guys, or am I missing something?

The Primarchs bend over and violate just about any non-primarch characters without lube.

I think you should factor in random powers, but factor in the chance of them not having them when comparing units. If character A only beats character B when they have Iron Arm, but have a 67% chance of getting Iron Arm, that's a pretty good matchup, but if they need Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility and only have an 8% chance of getting all 3 that's a pretty bad matchup.

How about Angron, or one of the other primarchs from forgeworld?

 crashhead wrote:
How about Angron, or one of the other primarchs from forgeworld?

Lorgar Transfigured beats Angron upside the head fairly easily.

Invisibility is a bitch.

And a pre-updated Swarmlord beat most of them as well Re-rolling invuls was a bitch.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And a pre-updated Swarmlord beat most of them as well Re-rolling invuls was a bitch.

A near garauntee for good things on Telepathy or Biomancy if he focused on them was what really made him special.

Now outside of Houserulehammer I just use him to hold down papers.

Necron Lord with MSS.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Depends what you are talking about it going against in close combat. One on one? Termis? Large ap3 unit? Horde?
Against any ap3 or worse unit without a good invuln, the death co dread with talons on the charge is mathmatically going to kill more than anyone else. Give it prescience and it feels like cheating.
6 ws5 s7 attacks rerolling to hit and reolling to wound, no armour saves allowed, and any wounds inflicted gain another attack, ad infinitum. Usually 3+ to hit with reroll followed by a 2+ to wound with reroll. That is A LOT of kills.

I've had this happen to a mob of 30 Boyz on more than one occasion during 5th edition.

Hasn't happened in 6th once though.

See, the reason the scope of this thread is a problem, is that different units are good against different things. I would not send Be'Lakor against the Swarmlord. He'd most likely win, but SitW is going to make it a pain to get through. I wouldn't send a tooled up GUO or LoC against a blob of Khorne Berserkers - I'd send a Black Mace Prince to do it. Wouldn't send 50 Guardsmen against 20 Berserkers, I'd send the Iron Arm'd GUO at them and laugh as they are borderline incapable of hurting him.

I vote Doombreed

Because Doombreed

Kharn.

I also like a simple Daemon Prince with the Black Mace. People tend to think he's a pushover because he's a CSM Daemon Prince and not from Codex Daemons. My god though, those rolls of 6s for Toughness Tests... Scare EVERYTHING.

I've Removed Ghazz' from play multiple times just because of 1 bad roll of 6. Gotta love it. Course, I've also lost plenty of Daemon Princes to zoggy and his squig ability!

Castellan Crowe because anything that can pile wounds onto him he just tanks with his rerollable 2+ armor and flame s them to death. Any big beatstick he just does his d3 attacks stamce then explodes after his inevitable death. Similar thing with Lukas the Trickster but can't deal with hordes.

Also to beat all those silly psykers I toss in the fiends of slaanesh and laugh as you hopelessly begin to peril more than you pass psy tests. And since they are running on a 3+ from those slaanesh heralds in the unit and are rerolling to hit vs them since theres the exalted loci and possible invis from all the heralds and their lvl2 (albiet only ld8)

Smashfether all the way in terms of damage output. Strangely enough, he also has the best force multiplying ability of all the beatsticks (bikes as troops).

Belakor is definitely a better all around choice, though. Too bad he'll die from shooting really quickly.

Lucarikx

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

Exactly, you can't factor random powers here.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's no forgeworld character in 40K that is better than the regular guys, or am I missing something?

The Primarchs bend over and violate just about any non-primarch characters without lube.

Notice I said "40K".

 Lucarikx wrote:
Smashfether all the way in terms of damage output

A Black Templars Marshal on bike with Shield Eternal instead of the Gorgon's Chain has rerolls in challenges and will thus have a better damage output. The IH CM is good because he can take insane amounts of punishment and still have decent output, not because he's got the best offense. A Juggerlord or Abaddon will easily put out much more offensive power, as will Skarbrand and the Swarmlord.

Lord of Sculls? Or is he fw. Imperial knight than. S: D and stomp.

 koooaei wrote:
Lord of Sculls? Or is he fw. Imperial knight than. S: D and stomp.

I would guess that a lot of escalation stuff would of course come out on top if you were to count it.

Not imperial knights however. A Daemonprince or a wraithknight can potentially take one down in one turn without taking any damage. There is a risk sure, but with AV13 and no saves in cc, they are not the toughest of opponents when lined up against the heaviest hitters in 40k.

I'd say the transcendent C'tan ws6 t9 w6 i5 a8 all at ap2 3+ with 4++ and FNP, stomps, give him storm of heavenly fire and that is a s6 ap3 hit ignores cover at the end of his move phase. after he dies everything within 4d6 take s10 ap2 hit. plus you get the gargantuan stuff on him too

Eh I'd say that super heavies and gargantuan creatures shouldn't be factored here. That opens up a whole different can of worms...

GoliothOnline wrote:
I also like a simple Daemon Prince with the Black Mace. People tend to think he's a pushover because he's a CSM Daemon Prince and not from Codex Daemons. My god though, those rolls of 6s for Toughness Tests... Scare EVERYTHING.

I've Removed Ghazz' from play multiple times just because of 1 bad roll of 6. Gotta love it. Course, I've also lost plenty of Daemon Princes to zoggy and his squig ability!

the problem with the CSM DP is he is so fragile, much more so than Belakor. Just a 5++ save and no EW. Yes he can remove stuff from the game, but it's a gamble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Castellan Crowe because anything that can pile wounds onto him he just tanks with his rerollable 2+ armor and flame s them to death. Any big beatstick he just does his d3 attacks stamce then explodes after his inevitable death.

Any big beatstick is going to ignore his armor save and then when Crowe makes his heroic attack he has to hit(which can be difficult)

Yeah the black mace prince has the potential to kill anything in the game before it can swing. However it is far from guaranteed and he can easily be killed by any MC. It's sad to say but a Riptide will probably kill a Daemon Prince in close combat...

 herpguy wrote:
Yeah the black mace prince has the potential to kill anything in the game before it can swing. However it is far from guaranteed and he can easily be killed by any MC. It's sad to say but a Riptide will probably kill a Daemon Prince in close combat...

Unlikely, but anything can happen.

 herpguy wrote:
Yeah the black mace prince has the potential to kill anything in the game before it can swing. However it is far from guaranteed and he can easily be killed by any MC. It's sad to say but a Riptide will probably kill a Daemon Prince in close combat...

With a lower initiative, weapon skill, and attacks characteristic I don't see this happening enough to be anything but anecdotal.

A Riptide has a ~46% chance to kill a daemon prince outright on the charge and 36% if not. A daemon prince has a much much lower chance of killing a riptide. That's far from anecdotal.

For ICs Abaddon is the best with only the Raukaan Chapter Master and a couple others able to touch him.
For straight up infantry units, even though it's very inefficient, 30 DC with Hammers and Claws are the best.
For single units overall Be'lakor is the best because of his powers followed by Skarbrand then Abaddon.

 herpguy wrote:
A Riptide has a ~46% chance to kill a daemon prince outright on the charge and 36% if not. A daemon prince has a much much lower chance of killing a riptide. That's far from anecdotal.

Well first of all, with three smash attacks on the charge and hitting on 5's, that Riptide is hitting one of three attacks.

Assuming one attack hits, it's then got an 83% chance to wound with a 66.7% chance of the wound going through and ending the Prince. So if the single attack gets through, I'm at a 55.3% chance for the DP to bite it. Assuming it's not Tzeentch, the Riptide charges, and the Riptide lived through the DP's attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A mace DP, by the by, rocks 5+D6 attacks, 6+D6 on the charge, does not have to smash (fleshbane), and hits on 3's. So that Riptide had better have a nova charged invul and FNP if it wants to live.

12 attacks hitting on 3s = 8 hits, wounding on 2s = 6.67 wounds, 5+ invulnerable = 4.44 unsaved wounds, Feel No Pain = 2.96 wounds

Your standard Riptide is only going down to a Black Mace Daemon Prince around 17% of the time, due to the Black Mace, while the Riptide has a much higher chance of killing the Daemon Prince.

I've lost a DP to a riptide before. He was my warlord, and had instant death due to his warlord trait (Choas Daemons), and also had fleshbane due to a greater gift, so I thought it was a guaranteed win for me.
I multi charged a unit of firewarriors too, as I hoped to sweep them all. 5 Attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with a 5++ save to stop me. All I needed was one wound to wipe them all...

Three 1's, and two 2's to hit later, and a successful riptide kick to the face, I removed the DP from the table.

Unexpected result do happen, and riptides are no slouches in cc when put up against the right targets (Expensive multi wound T5 models/ Tanks).
Daemon princes are good, but they really need iron arm if they are going to go toe to toe with the heavy hitters, if not then they need serious buffing through invisibility, prescience and grimmoire to have a chance.

MCs are a common enemy for me, and princes are not reliable for the task of removing them. This is a large reason as to why I favour bringing a LoC along in my lists.

Now, as previously said, a DP will destroy everything when fully buffed and lucky enough to get all he needs (this applies to CSM DPs rolling for psychic powers too).
For the purpose of this thread I would rate the DP better than the lord of change in terms of potential. In a TAC list, I use LoC more often however, as they are less reliant on luck.

 herpguy wrote:
A Riptide has a ~46% chance to kill a daemon prince outright on the charge and 36% if not. A daemon prince has a much much lower chance of killing a riptide. That's far from anecdotal.

yeah the prince will very rarely do 6 wounds to it in one round, even if the 3++ isn't up, so it is depending on the mace to proc.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I've lost a DP to a riptide before. He was my warlord, and had instant death due to his warlord trait (Choas Daemons), and also had fleshbane due to a greater gift, so I thought it was a guaranteed win for me.
I multi charged a unit of firewarriors too, as I hoped to sweep them all. 5 Attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with a 5++ save to stop me. All I needed was one wound to wipe them all...

For future reference it is not possible to multi-charge with a single model, as the first model moved does not have permission to move into base contact with any unit except the primary unit chosen for the charge (second and subsequent chargers have permission).

DP doesn't *always* strike first. Avatar, for instance, will strike first (and hits on 3s).

Smash is just rediculous against t5 and under, IMO.

I heard they were removing the double strength Smash rule but retaining MCs AP2 attack modifier.

Would be nice to not totally break non combat rolls of pure luck on a 220 point riptide vs a 350+ Daemon Prince losing out to a smash attack. Or for that matter a Riptide smashing a Landraider. Some gak just doesn't make sense.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I heard they were removing the double strength Smash rule but retaining MCs AP2 attack modifier.

Would be nice to not totally break non combat rolls of pure luck on a 220 point riptide vs a 350+ Daemon Prince losing out to a smash attack. Or for that matter a Riptide smashing a Landraider. Some gak just doesn't make sense.

Just picture the rip tide jumping on the land raider. Its fat enough to cause a S10 hit

Gonna throw some BA love out there, for 125 points i get AV 13 3 A at S10 WS6 and I4, AP2 (meaning most things that can hit back can only wound on a 5+, and only after he gets hit first),

and for 175 i get all that plus the ability to use a S7 PA FW to ID non-EW T6+ fighters at AP 2 (walkers ignore unwieldy), and throw in Might of Heroes (+D3 attacks) and Wings of Sanguinius (makes it jump infantry) and at a decent chunk less points than any of those other IC's, ignores ID, causes ID at initiative, immune to anything under s7, near immune to s7,

Sure, it might be 1-shot luckily on a pen, but most of the things that are a real threat have to wither through its attacks. not saying its the best, but most certainly up there and for considerably less points. Hell i can get two non-libby versions for the price of abbadon or the avatar.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I've lost a DP to a riptide before. He was my warlord, and had instant death due to his warlord trait (Choas Daemons), and also had fleshbane due to a greater gift, so I thought it was a guaranteed win for me.
I multi charged a unit of firewarriors too, as I hoped to sweep them all. 5 Attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with a 5++ save to stop me. All I needed was one wound to wipe them all...

For future reference it is not possible to multi-charge with a single model, as the first model moved does not have permission to move into base contact with any unit except the primary unit chosen for the charge (second and subsequent chargers have permission).

Yeah I missed part of the story out as I didn't want it to be too long. I had another daemon prince charge the firewarriors first and was able to engage them all. The warlord DP charged the firewarriors after that, and was able to get into contact with the riptide. The second DP did take down the riptide in the following turns, however I had already lost out points wise, and given away my Warlord point.

I do hope the smash rules are changed. They do seem a little too powerful atm, and this is coming from someone why plays Daemon lists filled with MCs. Str 10 monstrous creatures which reroll armour pe rolls are so powerful vs vehicles. Any MC and his dog can rip and tear through a landraider right now. Dreadnoughts don't stand a chance either, and that's a shame.

When you're spending 200+ points on a Dreadnought I'll feel sympathetic.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
When you're spending 200+ points on a Dreadnought I'll feel sympathetic.

A soul grinder is 170, and I wouldn't want my ones going anywhere near MCs. I just wish walkers could pose some semblance of a threat to those opposing team's big guys.

I've had Soul Grinders kill my MCs in close combat.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I've had Soul Grinders kill my MCs in close combat.

Good for you. MCs still hold the advantage, random chance aside. An unfair one at that. Str 10 for MCs would be ok. A higher strength and re-roll would also be ok, but having both makes going near them with any vehicle a very one sided affair.

Kharn the betrayer.

Because...BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
When you're spending 200+ points on a Dreadnought I'll feel sympathetic.

A soul grinder is 170, and I wouldn't want my ones going anywhere near MCs. I just wish walkers could pose some semblance of a threat to those opposing team's big guys.

forgefiends and defilers are here too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I've had Soul Grinders kill my MCs in close combat.

Good for you. MCs still hold the advantage, random chance aside. An unfair one at that. Str 10 for MCs would be ok. A higher strength and re-roll would also be ok, but having both makes going near them with any vehicle a very one sided affair.

some MCs having str10 isnt a problem, its all MCs having it, even the 'shooty' MCs. All walkers dont have str10 AP2, but all MCs do.

I like Asurman

True, I don't see why a Riptide deserves to have Smash (granted, I don't see why it deserves MC status at all).

Give Walkers Smash, Hammer of wrath, and moves through cover.

Bam, done.

Watch your armored sentinels kickbox Terminators to death.

Big metal chickens so do not deserve Smash or Hammer or Wrath.

I would have to say Loki from the space wolves. Even if you don't win it's a draw. Cause if you kill him he takes the other guy out with him.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Big metal chickens so do not deserve Smash or Hammer or Wrath.

If a gargoyle can get hammer of wrath or a priest can smash due to PURE DEVOTION, a several ton sentinel should too.

A Gargoyle gets Hamer of Wrath at a low Strength, to represent high impact damage from a relatively small body. I doubt a Sentinel could smack itself into anything smaller than a building and remain upright.

In the 40k universe, faith is more powerful than spindly chicken legs.

In terms of pure melee potential asskickery? The new Helbrute squadron dataslate. A unit of 5 helbrutes, with an assortment of fists, hammers and scourges, will annihilate almost anything. Sure it costs 600 points and anything it fights will probably be drastically cheaper, but it will certainly do its job.

 Badablack wrote:
In terms of pure melee potential asskickery? The new Helbrute squadron dataslate. A unit of 5 helbrutes, with an assortment of fists, hammers and scourges, will annihilate almost anything. Sure it costs 600 points and anything it fights will probably be drastically cheaper, but it will certainly do its job.

Triple crushing claw carnifexes with regeneration, adrenal glands, and toxin sacs with your choice of tail weapons. Vehicles can do little more than get bent.

Or a wrecker node worth of the aforementioned meleefexes if we're going that route paired with a maximum sized warrior brood with pimped out melee Tyranid warriors and a pimped out Tyranid Prime. Depending on your interpretation you may be able to field up to nine carnifexes as part of three separate broods. So the Helbrutes are outnumbered.

The Warriors should be able to tear through most anything through weight of rends and instant death. Anything with a toughness value has to face rerolling all to wound hits for those with less than T6 on the charge, or on any 1s to wound (also they're poisoned) and can chew on either instant death boneswords or rending claws.

The Carnifexes can get up to 12 S9 hammer of wrath hits for each brood the very second combat starts. Nothing with an AV value survives their charge and when assault actually begins their crushing claws will rip apart just about any vehicle and leave infantry in a bloody mess.

Or just throw in a maxed out, pimped out living tide and throw down 700+ models. Many of which are respawning. According to my calculations; throwing all of them into assault on any one unit or formation out there results in a tyranid victory.

I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

 herpguy wrote:
I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

Does this mean my crushing claw fexes can get a 3d6 to penetrate vehicle armor if we go back to the previous system?

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

Does this mean my crushing claw fexes can get a 3d6 to penetrate vehicle armor if we go back to the previous system?

I hope they would fix that. Knowing GW if they went back to the previous system of MC close combat they would just leave crushing claws as they are...

I think what's really bad about the whole system is the lack of any sort of logic behind what's a vehicle, and what's an MC, and how completely outclassed vehicles are by MCs.

This is a game in which:

Strap a witch to the front of a walker and it's a vehicle.
Strap a marine to the front of a walker, and it's a MC.
Put an ork in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a tau in a walker, and it's a MC.
Put a dead marine in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a dead eldar in a walker and it's a MC.
Put a live eldar in a walker and it's a vehicle.

I'd like to see a system where everything, MCs, ICs, and Vehicles can all be taken out with the right lucky shot. Why can I explode a dreadnought with a lucky autocannon hit, but not kill a carnifex with a lucky headshot?

The vehicles in the game that are worth playing with all have inherent saves of some sort, currently that's Jink. Why? All vehicles should get an armour save. If you give vehicles wounds (hull points), then they should get saves. It's nuts that a guy in terminator armour has a better chance of surviving a direct hit from a rocket, than a much larger and supposedly better armoured dreadnought.


Probably went off-topic a bit there.

 herpguy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

Does this mean my crushing claw fexes can get a 3d6 to penetrate vehicle armor if we go back to the previous system?

I hope they would fix that. Knowing GW if they went back to the previous system of MC close combat they would just leave crushing claws as they are...

The fact that the best use of a Carnifex is as a gunboat for worm spitters feels wrong.

Literally any other build just costs too much for what it does.

I miss my 2+ save T7 (with mutations) Fexes who could tear people up in melee.

But noooo, the fragging Eldar get the best melee MC who isn't from an HQ slot originally.

It feels wrong that the two armies that defined the monstrous creature (Chaos and Tyranids) pretty much need to crutch on wargear and psychic powers while a Wraithknight, Dreadknight, or Riptide breaks face out of the box.

 Redbeard wrote:
I think what's really bad about the whole system is the lack of any sort of logic behind what's a vehicle, and what's an MC, and how completely outclassed vehicles are by MCs.

This is a game in which:

Strap a witch to the front of a walker and it's a vehicle.
Strap a marine to the front of a walker, and it's a MC.
Put an ork in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a tau in a walker, and it's a MC.
Put a dead marine in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a dead eldar in a walker and it's a MC.
Put a live eldar in a walker and it's a vehicle.

Wraithknights are MCs.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
I think what's really bad about the whole system is the lack of any sort of logic behind what's a vehicle, and what's an MC, and how completely outclassed vehicles are by MCs.

This is a game in which:

Strap a witch to the front of a walker and it's a vehicle.
Strap a marine to the front of a walker, and it's a MC.
Put an ork in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a tau in a walker, and it's a MC.
Put a dead marine in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a dead eldar in a walker and it's a MC.
Put a live eldar in a walker and it's a vehicle.

Wraithknights are MCs.

He's referring to War-Walkers you silly goose.

Yes, I'm just pointing that the decision to make something a Monstrous Creature or Walker is so inconsistent and arbitrary that even the examples of the inconsistency are inconsistent.

It feels wrong that the two armies that defined the monstrous creature (Chaos and Tyranids) pretty much need to crutch on wargear and psychic powers while a Wraithknight, Dreadknight, or Riptide breaks face out of the box.

Qft brother.
A real bugbear of mine

I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which helps her a lot against an avatar or a bloodthirster...

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

Care to explain? IIRC a GUO only has an Initiative of 4, whereas Lelith has something like Initiative 9. Plus she has a dodge invulnerable save against shooting (4++) and melee attacks (3++) as well. On top of that she has the Penetrating Blade special rule.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

Care to explain? IIRC a GUO only has an Initiative of 4, whereas Lelith has something like Initiative 9. Plus she has a dodge invulnerable save against shooting (4++) and melee attacks (3++) as well. On top of that she has the Penetrating Blade special rule.

but lelith is going to need 6s to wound all the time and one str6 wound and she is dead.

Pretty good chance she'll dodge it though with a 3++ save against melee..

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Pretty good chance she'll dodge it though with a 3++ save against melee..

a 66% chance to dodge it against each and every attack. What happens when the GUO is doing 3-4 wounds to her each turn?

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

Care to explain? IIRC a GUO only has an Initiative of 4, whereas Lelith has something like Initiative 9. Plus she has a dodge invulnerable save against shooting (4++) and melee attacks (3++) as well. On top of that she has the Penetrating Blade special rule.

The GUO is pretty much garaunteed to get something nice from Biomancy with three rolls, and with pimped out gear from the rewards table the odds are further in his favor.

That Lelith struggles so much with a stock GUO does not bode well.

Right, so the finalists really are Skarbrand, Abaddon, Belakor (?) and the Swarmlord

 Sir Arun wrote:
Right, so the finalists really are Skarbrand, Abaddon, Belakor (?) and the Swarmlord

The Swarmlord hasn't been badass since January.

Ironfather Smashfether is much more dangerous than Swarmy.

I heard Swarmlord lost Biomancy, but did he also lose ID on his weapons?

And yeah, youre right about the Raukaan Bikemaster Does anybody have the wargear + points cost total for him? CM with bike, artificer, chain of gorgon, SE (or SS if this isnt available to them?), + TH right?

 Sir Arun wrote:
I heard Swarmlord lost Biomancy, but did he also lose ID on his weapons?

And yeah, youre right about the Raukaan Bikemaster Does anybody have the wargear + points cost total for him? CM with bike, artificer, chain of gorgon, SE (or SS if this isnt available to them?), + TH right?

He lost the ability to force rerolls on invulnerable saves, and anyone who can seriously compete at this level has eternal warrior anyway.

The Swarmlord can be trivially defeated by a dirt cheap necron lord with a MSS.

He sucks.

The Swarmlord kept causing Instant Death and lost:
- 1 psychic power known (but became ML 3)
- Either 18" Synapse range (if something else is your Warlord) or having a Warlord Trait (if the Swarmlord is your Warlord)
- Ability to be Initiative 7-9 and have 6-8 attacks on the charge
- Ability to be Eternal Warrior
- Ability to be Strength and Toughness 7-9
- Forcing rerolls to successful invulnerable saves
- Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips forcing enemies to Initiative 1.

As a Raukaanite, they cannot take the Shield Eternal. You nailed it on the head with the break down, and it typically around the 245 range.

Ebolaking wrote:
As a Raukaanite, they cannot take the Shield Eternal. You nailed it on the head with the break down, and it typically around the 245 range.

Raukaan gets Gorgon's chain, which is better because it buffs Smashfether's FNP.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I heard Swarmlord lost Biomancy, but did he also lose ID on his weapons?

And yeah, youre right about the Raukaan Bikemaster Does anybody have the wargear + points cost total for him? CM with bike, artificer, chain of gorgon, SE (or SS if this isnt available to them?), + TH right?

CM with bike, artificer, chain of gorgon,Lightning Claw + Thunder Hammer right?

 Exergy wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I heard Swarmlord lost Biomancy, but did he also lose ID on his weapons?

And yeah, youre right about the Raukaan Bikemaster Does anybody have the wargear + points cost total for him? CM with bike, artificer, chain of gorgon, SE (or SS if this isnt available to them?), + TH right?

CM with bike, artificer, chain of gorgon,Lightning Claw + Thunder Hammer right?

Yes. Tormentor helm and that one reusable combi-melta are also things you might see.

Anyway, with the new invisibility rules; Be'lakor takes the cake.

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/10312411_238670656323710_2878350746267061926_n.jpg

He's only getting hit on sixes in assault, so even Abaddon is only getting one or two hits on him at best and less than one wound to stick with Drach'nyen (using the Talon severely reduces the number of attacks he can make). Be'Lakor on the other hand is getting 3-4 hits and gets about two to stick.

It's a close run affair, but in the end Be'Lakor should prove that he is the greatest champion of chaos.

Skarbrand fares worse because he can't get enough hits to compete.

In terms of support, Be'Lakor can get better psyker support than Abaddon can but ties with Skarbrand (they are from the same army after all).

On the other hand, Be'Lakor can get a 2++ save to go with his invisibility from the grimoire.

In other words only 1 out of 36 attacks are going to stick (without factoring in to wound rolls, which would only make things worse, god help you if he has Endurance too).

At this point he defeats everything through sheer attrition.

Looks like Be'Lakor is the one true champion of Chaos.

 Kain wrote:

Ebolaking wrote:
As a Raukaanite, they cannot take the Shield Eternal. You nailed it on the head with the break down, and it typically around the 245 range.

Raukaan gets Gorgon's chain, which is better because it buffs Smashfether's FNP.

Wait if the Raukaan Bike Master cannot gain access to the Shield Eternal, then he will lose terribad against Skarbrand because he'll get ID'd.




Of course Be'lakor loses because he isnt present in either the CSM or Chaos Daemons codex and is merely a cluster of digital pixels floating somewhere on e-readers But really, at 350 points I think there is no special character that is more expensive than him, so you might as well declare him the winner simply because on a 1 on 1 he will have the points cost advantage, whereas with Abaddon for example you could offset him being just slightly more expensive by giving his opponent first turn.

I take it Abaddon would still smash Skarbrand?

I believe the Chain grants EW too.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I believe the Chain grants EW too.

only as long as he has suffered less than 2 wounds I think, so the chains only guarantee he makes it into cc round 2.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I believe the Chain grants EW too.

only as long as he has suffered less than 2 wounds I think, so the chains only guarantee he makes it into cc round 2.

He gets IWND to solve that.

But yes, with invisibility Be'Lakor is the king of combat monsters.