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I like Asurman

True, I don't see why a Riptide deserves to have Smash (granted, I don't see why it deserves MC status at all).

Give Walkers Smash, Hammer of wrath, and moves through cover.

Bam, done.

Watch your armored sentinels kickbox Terminators to death.

Big metal chickens so do not deserve Smash or Hammer or Wrath.

I would have to say Loki from the space wolves. Even if you don't win it's a draw. Cause if you kill him he takes the other guy out with him.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Big metal chickens so do not deserve Smash or Hammer or Wrath.

If a gargoyle can get hammer of wrath or a priest can smash due to PURE DEVOTION, a several ton sentinel should too.

A Gargoyle gets Hamer of Wrath at a low Strength, to represent high impact damage from a relatively small body. I doubt a Sentinel could smack itself into anything smaller than a building and remain upright.

In the 40k universe, faith is more powerful than spindly chicken legs.

In terms of pure melee potential asskickery? The new Helbrute squadron dataslate. A unit of 5 helbrutes, with an assortment of fists, hammers and scourges, will annihilate almost anything. Sure it costs 600 points and anything it fights will probably be drastically cheaper, but it will certainly do its job.

 Badablack wrote:
In terms of pure melee potential asskickery? The new Helbrute squadron dataslate. A unit of 5 helbrutes, with an assortment of fists, hammers and scourges, will annihilate almost anything. Sure it costs 600 points and anything it fights will probably be drastically cheaper, but it will certainly do its job.

Triple crushing claw carnifexes with regeneration, adrenal glands, and toxin sacs with your choice of tail weapons. Vehicles can do little more than get bent.

Or a wrecker node worth of the aforementioned meleefexes if we're going that route paired with a maximum sized warrior brood with pimped out melee Tyranid warriors and a pimped out Tyranid Prime. Depending on your interpretation you may be able to field up to nine carnifexes as part of three separate broods. So the Helbrutes are outnumbered.

The Warriors should be able to tear through most anything through weight of rends and instant death. Anything with a toughness value has to face rerolling all to wound hits for those with less than T6 on the charge, or on any 1s to wound (also they're poisoned) and can chew on either instant death boneswords or rending claws.

The Carnifexes can get up to 12 S9 hammer of wrath hits for each brood the very second combat starts. Nothing with an AV value survives their charge and when assault actually begins their crushing claws will rip apart just about any vehicle and leave infantry in a bloody mess.

Or just throw in a maxed out, pimped out living tide and throw down 700+ models. Many of which are respawning. According to my calculations; throwing all of them into assault on any one unit or formation out there results in a tyranid victory.

I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

 herpguy wrote:
I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

Does this mean my crushing claw fexes can get a 3d6 to penetrate vehicle armor if we go back to the previous system?

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

Does this mean my crushing claw fexes can get a 3d6 to penetrate vehicle armor if we go back to the previous system?

I hope they would fix that. Knowing GW if they went back to the previous system of MC close combat they would just leave crushing claws as they are...

I think what's really bad about the whole system is the lack of any sort of logic behind what's a vehicle, and what's an MC, and how completely outclassed vehicles are by MCs.

This is a game in which:

Strap a witch to the front of a walker and it's a vehicle.
Strap a marine to the front of a walker, and it's a MC.
Put an ork in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a tau in a walker, and it's a MC.
Put a dead marine in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a dead eldar in a walker and it's a MC.
Put a live eldar in a walker and it's a vehicle.

I'd like to see a system where everything, MCs, ICs, and Vehicles can all be taken out with the right lucky shot. Why can I explode a dreadnought with a lucky autocannon hit, but not kill a carnifex with a lucky headshot?

The vehicles in the game that are worth playing with all have inherent saves of some sort, currently that's Jink. Why? All vehicles should get an armour save. If you give vehicles wounds (hull points), then they should get saves. It's nuts that a guy in terminator armour has a better chance of surviving a direct hit from a rocket, than a much larger and supposedly better armoured dreadnought.


Probably went off-topic a bit there.

 herpguy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I have to agree with what's said before that it is quite ridiculous ALL MCs get smash. The 5th edition AP2 modifier and 2D6 armor pen was a great way to do it in my opinion.
It's quite annoying that I can never ever send a juggerlord up against a riptide.

Does this mean my crushing claw fexes can get a 3d6 to penetrate vehicle armor if we go back to the previous system?

I hope they would fix that. Knowing GW if they went back to the previous system of MC close combat they would just leave crushing claws as they are...

The fact that the best use of a Carnifex is as a gunboat for worm spitters feels wrong.

Literally any other build just costs too much for what it does.

I miss my 2+ save T7 (with mutations) Fexes who could tear people up in melee.

But noooo, the fragging Eldar get the best melee MC who isn't from an HQ slot originally.

It feels wrong that the two armies that defined the monstrous creature (Chaos and Tyranids) pretty much need to crutch on wargear and psychic powers while a Wraithknight, Dreadknight, or Riptide breaks face out of the box.

 Redbeard wrote:
I think what's really bad about the whole system is the lack of any sort of logic behind what's a vehicle, and what's an MC, and how completely outclassed vehicles are by MCs.

This is a game in which:

Strap a witch to the front of a walker and it's a vehicle.
Strap a marine to the front of a walker, and it's a MC.
Put an ork in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a tau in a walker, and it's a MC.
Put a dead marine in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a dead eldar in a walker and it's a MC.
Put a live eldar in a walker and it's a vehicle.

Wraithknights are MCs.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
I think what's really bad about the whole system is the lack of any sort of logic behind what's a vehicle, and what's an MC, and how completely outclassed vehicles are by MCs.

This is a game in which:

Strap a witch to the front of a walker and it's a vehicle.
Strap a marine to the front of a walker, and it's a MC.
Put an ork in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a tau in a walker, and it's a MC.
Put a dead marine in a walker, and it's a vehicle.
Put a dead eldar in a walker and it's a MC.
Put a live eldar in a walker and it's a vehicle.

Wraithknights are MCs.

He's referring to War-Walkers you silly goose.

Yes, I'm just pointing that the decision to make something a Monstrous Creature or Walker is so inconsistent and arbitrary that even the examples of the inconsistency are inconsistent.

It feels wrong that the two armies that defined the monstrous creature (Chaos and Tyranids) pretty much need to crutch on wargear and psychic powers while a Wraithknight, Dreadknight, or Riptide breaks face out of the box.

Qft brother.
A real bugbear of mine

I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which helps her a lot against an avatar or a bloodthirster...

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

Care to explain? IIRC a GUO only has an Initiative of 4, whereas Lelith has something like Initiative 9. Plus she has a dodge invulnerable save against shooting (4++) and melee attacks (3++) as well. On top of that she has the Penetrating Blade special rule.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

Care to explain? IIRC a GUO only has an Initiative of 4, whereas Lelith has something like Initiative 9. Plus she has a dodge invulnerable save against shooting (4++) and melee attacks (3++) as well. On top of that she has the Penetrating Blade special rule.

but lelith is going to need 6s to wound all the time and one str6 wound and she is dead.

Pretty good chance she'll dodge it though with a 3++ save against melee..

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Pretty good chance she'll dodge it though with a 3++ save against melee..

a 66% chance to dodge it against each and every attack. What happens when the GUO is doing 3-4 wounds to her each turn?

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd have to say Lelith Hesperax. Lightning quick plus she gets bonus attacks equal to the difference in WS twixt herself and her enemies.

Which would be nice if she could deal a wounding blow to an Iron armed Daemon Prince or GUO.

Well if the dice roll is right then who knows, maybe she will.

Getting gibbed by he who has exposed intestines from the word go while not even being able to wound him is a major strike against her chances here.

Care to explain? IIRC a GUO only has an Initiative of 4, whereas Lelith has something like Initiative 9. Plus she has a dodge invulnerable save against shooting (4++) and melee attacks (3++) as well. On top of that she has the Penetrating Blade special rule.

The GUO is pretty much garaunteed to get something nice from Biomancy with three rolls, and with pimped out gear from the rewards table the odds are further in his favor.

That Lelith struggles so much with a stock GUO does not bode well.

Right, so the finalists really are Skarbrand, Abaddon, Belakor (?) and the Swarmlord

 Sir Arun wrote:
Right, so the finalists really are Skarbrand, Abaddon, Belakor (?) and the Swarmlord

The Swarmlord hasn't been badass since January.

Ironfather Smashfether is much more dangerous than Swarmy.