I'd say yes, from what I've seen they appear to at least try to find the best guy for the job when they do take overs, so it may be quite possible that they would try to put someone who knows the hobby in a position to make policy.
Hasbro will at least make game design competent. They've gobbled up some of the best game designers that have been successful in growing a brand. While balancing the game would be difficult at first, I'd believe Hasbro would eventually do the right things.
Hasbro ruined Marvel Legends and it will ruin (worse) Warhammer. Will it be more available to places? Yes. But if they follow a trend that they did with ML, you'll get less models, higher cost, and shoddier products. Feth that.
Schmapdi wrote: GW as-is might as well not exist to me, so if Hasbro takes over and somehow does any worse at managing things, I haven't really lost anything.
And who knows - maybe they could turn things around?
So I vote yes - go ahead and give it a go. Couldn't hurt to try.
No more Kirby logic.
No more Ward /GW codex writer of choice hate.
No more Jervis and his wonderful world view.
No more Great News!
No more LoTD auto loss.
No more lonely nids.
Haha yes that's true, it probably would cut down on the number of rant threads, and on the grounds that people do like to have a moan that may be a bad thing?
I think anyone else getting involved wouldn't necessarily bring change - I think it would all depend on how much of an active involvement they take; whether they gut the upper management, but also try and put gamers/design people back in charge of both the new releases and the schedule of those releases, and away from the sales teams/bean counters.
I think that last point would be the key one as to whether you would see any significant improvement.
MRPYM wrote:What makes Hasbro a good idea to buy warhammer if ever?
People keep talking about them but why?
There have been rumours kicking about for years. Most likely because their business interests/focus intersects with GW, and also because they are potentially a large enough company to carry it off.
There were also rumours of Bandai at one point (9-10 years ago?) being interested after the LoTR bubble had burst.
WOTC;
The company that ran out of ideas for Star Wars minis.
The company that can't well D&D to Role-Players.
Killed D&D minis
Killed Star Wars minis
Killed Heroscape
Couldn't even sell their own minis game Dreamscape with a tournament prize of $100,000.00
If Hasbro bought GW you'd all be crying. Hasbro does NOT know the gaming industry, they only know the family gaming industry, which is what they do well.
MRPYM wrote: What makes Hasbro a good idea to buy warhammer if ever?
Because of GW's current situation: they have a strong IP, but terrible management of it. What GW's IP needs is a company that is willing to invest in professional game designers and proper development (something they have clearly done with MTG), and management that understands basic business concepts like marketing and customer research (again, something WOTC is clearly capable of). Replace the lazy and incompetent morons GW employs and the IP is instantly in a lot better shape and has much better long-term growth potential. This isn't a very demanding task and there are plenty of companies that could do it, but there's one key advantage Hasbro has: they actually have the financial resources to take over GW without being completely overwhelmed.
Ugavine wrote: Hasbro does NOT know the gaming industry, they only know the family gaming industry, which is what they do well.
Yeah, they clearly don't know gaming, which is why MTG is such a hopeless failure.
As for their other games:
The Star Wars games died because of license issues, not WOTC's decisions. IIRC the games were successful, but when the license was up for renewal the new terms were financial suicide.
D&D had problems with 4th edition, but WOTC is at least attempting to fix those problems based on player feedback, something GW refuses to do. And note that one of the biggest problems WOTC has with D&D is their incredibly generous license terms (essentially "use the core rules in your products for free, just put a D20 logo on the cover") for the 3rd edition rules, which allowed a competing company to make D&D in all but name.
D&D miniatures (and their other minor games) suffered from the problem of not having any realistic market, something GW's IP doesn't have a problem with.
Ugavine wrote: Hasbro does NOT know the gaming industry, they only know the family gaming industry, which is what they do well.
Yeah, they clearly don't know gaming, which is why MTG is such a hopeless failure.
As for their other games:
The Star Wars games died because of license issues, not WOTC's decisions. IIRC the games were successful, but when the license was up for renewal the new terms were financial suicide.
D&D had problems with 4th edition, but WOTC is at least attempting to fix those problems based on player feedback, something GW refuses to do. And note that one of the biggest problems WOTC has with D&D is their incredibly generous license terms (essentially "use the core rules in your products for free, just put a D20 logo on the cover") for the 3rd edition rules, which allowed a competing company to make D&D in all but name.
D&D miniatures (and their other minor games) suffered from the problem of not having any realistic market, something GW's IP doesn't have a problem with.
They gave up Star Wars because they ran out of ideas! Seriously, a role-playing company that ran out of ideas? With Star Wars?!
They messed up D&D minis with rules changes, and role-players are not going to buy random packs.
Magic is their success, but do you REALLY want 40K to go down that route? Power creep in Magic makes 40K look the most balanced game on the market.
If WOTC aquired 40K I'd stop buying in an instant.
GW is running on Stupid at the moment (and has been for a fair while) but Hasbro has not shown a great ability to manage games that require steady releases other than the total free for all that is MtG
and if Hasbro got hold of GW that would be it, no chance for any other investor(s) to pull it away from them
Hasbro does NOT know the gaming industry, they only know the family gaming industry, which is what they do well.
Yeah, they clearly don't know gaming, which is why MTG is such a hopeless failure.
People always say that Hasbro are geniuses because MtG does so well, however I am not convinced about that. In other thread it came up that Hasbro's financial reports show that their gaming division has actually done WORSE than GW over last five years, with zero growth over the period. So sure, they have couple of wildly successful franchises (MtG and maybe couple of others). But other than that, their success seem to be middling at best.
I'm not qualified to have an opinion on Hasbro so cant give any pointers on a business view.
However,
If any company takes over the 40k license or GW completely I would be very upset if they lost the feel of it. I don't want another generic scifi game with american action heroes running around shouting 'get some get some'.
I feel that it might loose that British quirk that it still has (although that's getting a bit smaller each edition). Plus I would probably be rather annoyed if it wasn't made in the UK that's part of the charm. Or little island dosn't produce too many products in house as most of them get snapped up by larger companies and sent to China for all the work.
If they can do what that US company (cant think of the name Hershey maybe?) did with Cadbury's then I will be happy. Quality stayed the same, still made in the UK, still has the British quirk but now managed much better and many more countries are getting to enjoy the product.
The thought of the 40K IP being subjected to the scrutiny of the marketing firm of a mainstream name like Hasbro is too awful to consider. There is no way it would survive in its current form.
Daston wrote: I don't want another generic scifi game with american action heroes running around shouting 'get some get some.'
This.
40K's IP rights aren't going to go cheap - ever - and any company that spent the money on it would want to recoup their investment quickly - and that means 'broadening the appeal' of the IP, which would turn 40K into a parody of itself.
Fafnir wrote: Implying that GW hasn't done that already?
Not implying it. Stating it.
Aside from the occassional misstep GW continues to handle the fluff of 40K rather well. I do not, for a moment, believe that the ultraviolent nihilism of 40K's setting would survive were the IP to fall into other hands. GW has too much invested in 40K to step too far out of their comfort zone, but in the hands of a multinational like Hasbro would become just another product - one line among many - and anyone who believes that they would stay true to the spirit of the game is kidding themselves. When Hasbro acquired the XCom IP there was talk of turning it into a children's cartoon series, and I imagine 40K would suffer the same fate.
I'd actually say Bandai of Japan would be a better bet. They're an absolute business powerhouse with a metric fucktonne of money, they know what their customers want and are prepared to own up to their mistakes (he reason we get "renewal" versions of iffy figures) and most importantly they're superb model manufacturers.
Also, just try telling me you wouldn't like to see a Soul of Chogokin Dreadnought or an S.H. Monsterarts Carnifex.
Anyone who thinks that Hasbro would be good for GW is seriously deluded.
I'm not a GW fan. They've destroyed much of what I love about 40k and marked what remains far out of my budget. However Hasbro is a toy company with zero experience with successful tabletop wargames. Hasbro's moderate experience with a non-model, prepackaged game like MTG means exactly nothing when thinking of how they'd do with 40k.
Hasbro will only be good for players who:
-Would rather play video games (they'd certainly use the IP for this)
-Would rather play prepainted collectible games than tabletop model wargames.
-Would rather play Board Games than Tabletop model games.
Seriously. If if GW goes under it needs to be acquired by a group that values Tabletop wargaming or perhaps a high quality model company (the Bandai option is actually a pretty good suggestion), not a toy company who's main hobby games are sold in blind packaging at the Target checkout.
GW has already sanitised the Warhammer ranges to appeal to US tastes, GW run by yanks would be terribly bland. I think sales would drop off and they would write Warhammer off after a few years along with whatever barstardised prepaint/card game they would inevitably try to turn it into.
Might as well just put a bullet in the back of GW's head.
They haven't made a decent G.I.Joe in years. The games they took over were basically MB love drippings, and sell on nostalgia only. WOTC has already shown their care with this craptasticly hilarious parody of D and D that they continue to wear the emperors new cloths over. They went so far as to "Reissue" the old stuff just to continue to keep OS gamers to shore up the losses.
And... DO you really want to see collectable 3 3/4 inch 40K figures, crossover Disney, and so much diffusion of the product to make it mainstream?
Walmart? Toys R us? K Mart?
The HHHOBBY at its best, I guess.
Seriously? if they want to make money, they need to fire off about half of the overhead corporation gak lappers, and put the money into innovation, game design, and good old fashion hard work and sweat of creativity. The stores- If they want to keep the stores, make them profitable. If they want to use On line, they should hire an online presence and do it themselves right the first time. Shelling out the "IP" is selling out the brand. DIY, or don't do it at all.
I'm as Yank as they get and I 100% agree that its on the whole a Brit institution, go over to Hasbro, and your going to see it sanitized to the point of stupid. Remember, your talking GW as a whole. Hasbro will kill off the whole thing, restructure them into part timers and the Workshop will cease. That means the whole. On one hand, you'll see more on the interwebs and less C and D letters out to the fans, on the other, you'll not see the likes of Space Hulk, Necromunda, or Mordhiem fit into the "Corporate strategy" that your thinking here.
No to Hasbro, Yes to GW pulling its head out of its fourth point of contact.
Games Workshop will not change. They consider themselves "too big to fail" and unless the entire upper management, starting with the rotten fish's stinking head Kirby, leaves, nothing good will ever come out of it.
Let's just assume that someone with common sense will take lead of the company: it's a terrible spot to be in. You would have to restructure an entire company, you would have to fire a lot of people and you would have to hire a lot of them in return for playtesting etc.
Seriously? if they want to make money, they need to fire off about half of the overhead corporation gak lappers, and put the money into innovation, game design, and good old fashion hard work and sweat of creativity. The stores- If they want to keep the stores, make them profitable.
I think they already did what you advocated for "game designers"; some months ago someone posted up the number of in-house game designers and amount spent on game design vs. the past and it's much higher now than ever, witness the influx of all the new content for 40k in a relatively short period of time. The problem is that quantity of output with these new designers is not matched by quality; they've gone to a flood model of product release and the quality sucks to be honest.
What a larger company could bring to the table would be some sanity in the release process and a shake-up in the upper management that could result in more creativity in releases vs. the copy paste that we have now with a splash of new content, a rehashed pic from 20 years ago and a shiny new $50 price-tag for each codex.
The problem with GW is that they have the workforce but the corporate culture is such, for whatever reason, that nothing innovative happens. The 40k storyline doesn't advance and neither does the corporate culture either. IMO this is what you get when the CEO is Imperator for Life and the major share holders don't care enough to oust him.
Daston wrote: I don't want another generic scifi game with american action heroes running around shouting 'get some get some'.
Have you read the Damnos warzone book? Calgar and Sicarius basically did just that.
The thing about a Hasbro takeover of GW is that, not only does Hasbro have the money to do that, but they'll also have the money to invest into the game. GW's releases lately seem all about making a quick buck to pay the current month's rent and to hopefully have enough left over to fund the next release to repeat the cycle. The days of GW doing a complete plastic remake of an army like Necrons and Dark Eldar are over. Hasbro, on the other hand, could do that (SoB players rejoice, maybe?).
Aside from the occassional misstep GW continues to handle the fluff of 40K rather well.
No, it doesn't. GW doesn't seem to understand what makes its own background interesting hence the over saturation of GRIM DARK, cartoonish characterisations and outright stupid that seems to be the hallmarks of GW's writing staff these days. If you want to read 40k fluff done right read the FFGRPG source books.
Tannhauser42 wrote: The days of GW doing a complete plastic remake of an army like Necrons and Dark Eldar are over. Hasbro, on the other hand, could do that (SoB players rejoice, maybe?).
A faction comprised of religious fanatics with a martydom rule and soaked in pseudo-catholic imagery would give Hasbro's PR division a collective aneurysm. Sisters would last about as long in Hasbro 40K as Slannesh.
Aside from the occassional misstep GW continues to handle the fluff of 40K rather well.
I don't even...
Retconning and taking a dump on the fluff of an entire faction, breaking any trace of possible immersion and logic with the new psyker fluff and them suddenly summoning demons left and right, one faction made the official punching bag for other armies' fluff...just a few examples. Granted, a lot of them are related to Matt Ward. Man, I should have become a write for GW. I could do the worst possible job and constantly deliver crap without any effort and I'd still be employed forever. Awesome.
I'd actually rather vote for "I want people to stop buying GW products."
Not, as you may at first assume, to bankrupt GW, but because I believe that they are still probably best positioned to become what many want them to be under their own power.
The problem is, they only listen to one thing, and while there is an element of the customer base that continues to buy hideous "Limited Edition" terrain, books that carry a massive premium, and then special versions that offer nothing extra of any substance at an even greater premium, alongside people who day things like "urgh, this new kit is hideous, I'm only getting two, three tops" the customer base is sending the wrong message.
I'm open minded as to whether "Hasbro" (in quotes because I'm using that as shorthand for a larger company with money to invest) would be a good or bad thing, probably a little of both, but I don't think it has to happen for GW to turn around, although it may be the one that takes effect soonest, unless we all take responsibility for not rewarding poor products or bad practices with cash.
Honestly if GW gets onto a situation where they are really in danger of having to sell-out they could likely just sell their IP to Hollywood studios. Just release all their IP control to Hollywood - yes that means we'd have to suffer 10001 Micheal Bay style Warhammer Action films with Teen Romance and such but at least chances are GW could make a large income off the sale of the IP and then later in new fans joining the hobby.
Really the only reason I can think of that GW isn't into the movie world is because they want to retain control over their IP - whilst most Hollywood studios just want your product name, blurb and fanbase (they don't really care much about authenticity of story).
My only concern if Hasbro took over is that they make the background of the game too kid friendly, I love the grim dark I have already and I would like more not less
GW has tried to interest Hollywood studios in their IP.
The studios didn't bite.
But then, take a look at what studios did with the D&D IP when making movies....
I think that Hasbro could do a better job than GW under Kirby.
I do not think that Hasbro will wantGW.
While I think that Hasbro buying GW would be a good thing... I also think that Hasbro buying WotC was a bad thing.
I just think that GW is worse, not that Hasbro is good.
I miss the old WotC - and am very glad that the OGL was written with malice aforethought; they knew that some future version of WotC would try to crap in the pool, and wrote the OGL specifically to prevent that.
And, sure enough, along game 4e and the GSL... that... isn't a Zagnut in the water....
First off I'm assuming that when we say selling off GW we really mean 40K. Given that WFB and LotR are seemingly dead due to lack of attention to the brands.
My problem is that I am not too fussed about the way that GW is treating 40K at the moment anyway. Seeing as I am purely a collector of their models, the only thing that frustrates me is the absurd models that they release and that is purely down to the designers, and not who owns the business. It would be nice to see the IP go in different directions such as high quality video games and movies (oh what I would give to have Creative Assembly make a 40K total war game...)
My problem with GW being bought out would be that 40K could get sidelined much as what happened to Fantasy or LotR. If I knew that the game would still receive just as much attention as it is now I would probably support the idea.
Honestly though, I think all that is needed for GW to get back on my good side is find a CEO who cares about the franchise and has some common business sense. A few tweaks here and there and problem solved.
Commander Cain wrote: Honestly though, I think all that is needed for GW to get back on my good side is find a CEO who cares about the franchise and has some common business sense. A few tweaks here and there and problem solved.
I'd agree. If the top managers (Tom Kirby and co) were booted out then I reckon things would get better. There's plenty of talented people in GW, and I think writing off the entire company as evil is unfair- we should be pinning the blame on the very uppermost echelons of GW, not the entire company. Just fire the management + Tom Kirby and get some people who actually care to run the company. Alan and Michael Perry, Andy Chambers, even poor old Jervis Johnson (senile as he is). I know this is wish-making at best, but I think getting the GW "old guard" back in charge would help massively.
AlexHolker wrote: Yes. GW as it exists today will never get a dollar from me ever again. There is nowhere to go but up.
I don't buy from GW on principle. If another company acquired GW and cleaned out upper management that might change. Although honestly, what GW is producing these days does not blow my skirt up. Having gone elsewhere for my Wargaming needs for the past 4 years, I have missed nothing about GW.
Aside from the occassional misstep GW continues to handle the fluff of 40K rather well.
No, it doesn't. GW doesn't seem to understand what makes its own background interesting hence the over saturation of GRIM DARK, cartoonish characterisations and outright stupid that seems to be the hallmarks of GW's writing staff these days. If you want to read 40k fluff done right read the FFGRPG source books.
Dark minus the grim. GW has lost the grim that gives the 40K universe context and meaning. GW's use of skulls in 40K lately is a good example. GW has forgotten why skulls are important in 40K imagery.
These days GW adds moar skulls because skulls are totes dark and 40K is about killing stuff and looking cool while doing it like you don't give a crap. So GW puts skulls on everything.
Before I played Warhammer 40k, I played a little game called Heroscape. The models came pre-painted and it was a a bit collector-ish. The game itself was fun! It was balanced, it had some interesting background, there was in NO WAY anything near "Triptide auto-win" nonsense. It was a great game. And what happened? The IP started falling after a lack of good releases. So they pushed out a final 10th wave which was absolute bullsnot and pushed of to WOTC. WOTC saw this as a way to bring in some new D&D players and said, "Why put effort into this? We can just recycle of old D&D models and not even have to give them background info stuff!" Thus followed the 4th (and second worst after the marvel set) Master Set. After that came "Wave 11" which in all fairness, the rules were still excellent. THEN came wave 12. They decided, "Why keep making all these big 30mm bases for this stuff if we can just re-use our old 25mm bases?" To the bases on the single space models were changed from their staple form into absolute GAK. Then they took even further with wave 13, "Hmmmm... Utgar is to much 'lawful evil' we need something to get all the chaotic evil monsters!" Thus came Valkrill (the 7th Archkyrie general The armies were organized into 1 of 6 generals. Utgar was evil, Ullar was an Elf at heart thus why he has so many, Einar was Discipline and Imperialism, Jandar was Justice and goo and lived in the snowy mountains, Vydar was dark and brooding and had lots of robots in his army, and Aquila was foresty wild stuff.) Valkrill had NO Backstory, and NO theme other than "Ooo sooper dooper evil" That marked the end of the game. the final wave 13 contained 4 squads of Valkrill and that's all he ever got. They took what was once and AWESOME game and turned into mush. People still love and play it though. My brothers went to a tourny just last year and it was cancelled nearly 4 years ago.
So NONONO. Hadbro must NOT get their hands on this IP, or else the moment they start failing it they'll push off to a child company who'll ruin it entirely
ashcroft wrote: A faction comprised of religious fanatics with a martydom rule and soaked in pseudo-catholic imagery would give Hasbro's PR division a collective aneurysm.
That's Optimus Prime's entire shtick. Hasbro the marketed thin Catholic imagery analogues way before GW.
People seem to object on the grounds that Hasbro would run GW as a toy company. GW are, in their ham-fisted, blundering way, already doing this. What's wrong with a company stepping in and doing what they were already doing, but better?
ntw3001 wrote: People seem to object on the grounds that Hasbro would run GW as a toy company. GW are, in their ham-fisted, blundering way, already doing this. What's wrong with a company stepping in and doing what they were already doing, but better?
I don't understand this either.
GW themselves have said that they are in the business of selling toys to kids. Literally.
How could Hasbro do any worse? By turning it into a PG film? By making action figures and plushies? By removing everything grim or dark?
Hasbro are a competent company and, unlike GW understand market research. They wouldn't buy something with the history and established fanbase that 40k has and then decide to scrap all that and make Space Marine action figures with real karate chop action. They'll go looking for what the current fans want from the game and try to give us that because that is retail 101...
You find what your customers want and then sell it to them. GW doesn't understand this which is why we get things like the pig mobile, the high elf flying-boat-chariot, super limited edition hardbacks that ate $84 for 60 pages and all that crap.
Hasbro will see people wanting more effort put into game design, or old models to be redone, or specialist games to be brought back. We might not get all that but we'll have a hell of a lot better odds of getting it from Hasbro than GW.
Commander Cain wrote: First off I'm assuming that when we say selling off GW we really mean 40K. Given that WFB and LotR are seemingly dead due to lack of attention to the brands.
My problem is that I am not too fussed about the way that GW is treating 40K at the moment anyway. Seeing as I am purely a collector of their models, the only thing that frustrates me is the absurd models that they release and that is purely down to the designers, and not who owns the business. It would be nice to see the IP go in different directions such as high quality video games and movies (oh what I would give to have Creative Assembly make a 40K total war game...)
My problem with GW being bought out would be that 40K could get sidelined much as what happened to Fantasy or LotR. If I knew that the game would still receive just as much attention as it is now I would probably support the idea.
Honestly though, I think all that is needed for GW to get back on my good side is find a CEO who cares about the franchise and has some common business sense. A few tweaks here and there and problem solved.
*Shrug* If you include the dead game Mordheim with fantasy... then I have to say that fantasy is alive and kicking, locally - but only because of that 'dead' game....
It is a bad sign when one of the discontinued, and no longer officially supported, games is getting more play than one of the core games....
1) As a large company, they can't micromanage decisions. So they'll hire someone who knows how to run a wargaming company to run GW properly.
2) They'll diversify the Warhammer and 40k IP. This means video games, RPGs, and even card games. More variety is good. Heck we might even see some(good)movies come out eventually. The specialist games would also likely make a comeback. As one off games, they'd be profitable to sell in more traditional sales avenues like Toys-R-US and Walmart.
3) We'll see tournament support again, and on a larger scale. This means we'll see decent balanced rulesets to facilitate competitive play.
Do I want to see this happen? Yea I do. Will it happen? Probably not. The reason why is the same thing I have been saying for years. Games WorkShop is a SMALL time player with such a BAD negativity on it's IP on how it conducts business as viewed by the customer base, which by the way is dwindling.
The progression on why certain actions are being done by the corporation are very interesting indeed.
Maybe Rupert Murdock will help bail them out eh? Heh... Heh... Heh...
GW could at least learn something from the way Hasbro/WotC handle things like Magic. Community interaction, teasers and spoilers, proper release events with promos and prizes, numerous supported events, etc. GW hide it's product behind a wall of secrecy, cut all the content from it's website, gut their magazine, end tournament support and treat the community like something to constantly attack and attempt to gag. Also the RRP of a MtG booster pack and other sets hasn't changed since I started over two years ago, which is not something you can say of much GW product.
Guess which one is going from strength to strength? I don't know if Hasbro would be good for the future of GW, but GW doesn't have a future with the current owners.
The Last thing we need Is yanks in charge.
This thread just sums up how jealous the americans are that the best and most successful gaming company Is english.
blingman wrote: The Last thing we need Is yanks in charge.
This thread just sums up how jealous the americans are that the best and most successful gaming company Is english.
blingman wrote: The Last thing we need Is yanks in charge.
This thread just sums up how jealous the americans are that the best and most successful gaming company Is english.
And gw is going from strength to strength thanks to its English management. Oh, wait....
'Jealousy' isn't the word you're looking for...
Plenty American companies do a good job bro. Fine, they can't remake a movie worth a damn, but they're quite good in a lot of other areas.
I love how the majority of poster on this site whinge and whine about how much they hate gw and their products and or games but of course they still play them and buy the products.
Here's an idea, how about you stop playing the game altogether and leave it to the people who enjoy the game? Maybe you'd be more suited to a gakky game like magic the gathering?
1) As a large company, they can't micromanage decisions. So they'll hire someone who knows how to run a wargaming company to run GW properly.
Danger with outsiders coming into a company always is that they don't understand the business and screw things up with "brand extensions" or "streamlining" or whatnot. Look at what happened with Rackham.
2) They'll diversify the Warhammer and 40k IP. This means video games, RPGs, and even card games. More variety is good. Heck we might even see some(good)movies come out eventually. The specialist games would also likely make a comeback. As one off games, they'd be profitable to sell in more traditional sales avenues like Toys-R-US and Walmart.
Uh, there already is 40k video games, card games and RPG's. And I sure rather see BFG stay dead than return as some watered down one-off boardgame.
Dish2296 wrote: I love how the majority of poster on this site whinge and whine about how much they hate gw and their products and or games but of course they still play them and buy the products.
Here's an idea, how about you stop playing the game altogether and leave it to the people who enjoy the game? Maybe you'd be more suited to a gakky game like magic the gathering?
There it is folks, the trifecta.
-The "H" word.
-The "If you don't like it, quit" fallacy
-The snipe at the competing game to finish off.
Dish2296 wrote: I love how the majority of poster on this site whinge and whine about how much they hate gw and their products and or games but of course they still play them and buy the products.
Here's an idea, how about you stop playing the game altogether and leave it to the people who enjoy the game? Maybe you'd be more suited to a gakky game like magic the gathering?
First of all, I haven't played a GW game or bought anything from them since shortly after sixth edition dropped.
Second, I'm just going to use a quote of mine that has popped up in Jonolikespie's signature, because it sums up things fairly well:
I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Dish2296 wrote: I love how the majority of poster on this site whinge and whine about how much they hate gw and their products and or games but of course they still play them and buy the products.
Here's an idea, how about you stop playing the game altogether and leave it to the people who enjoy the game? Maybe you'd be more suited to a gakky game like magic the gathering?
First of all, I haven't played a GW game or bought anything from them since shortly after sixth edition dropped.
Second, I'm just going to use a quote of mine that has popped up in Jonolikespie's signature, because it sums up things fairly well:
I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Yep, there is a damn good reason I sig'd that. T'was true then and is still true now.
blingman wrote: The Last thing we need Is yanks in charge.
This thread just sums up how jealous the americans are that the best and most successful gaming company Is english.
You think that's why people have a problem with GW? Because they are English? Not because they are constantly letting down their customer base with over priced models, gak policy's, no respect for their customers and rules that are not worth the paper they are printed on? No it's due to rampant nationalism. I don't mean to be rude but your assertion is ridiculous.
Dish2296 wrote: I love how the majority of poster on this site whinge and whine about how much they hate gw and their products and or games but of course they still play them and buy the products.
Here's an idea, how about you stop playing the game altogether and leave it to the people who enjoy the game? Maybe you'd be more suited to a gakky game like magic the gathering?
I don't play 40k anymore. I did buy something recently - the new Tyranid codex and a box of Termagants. The first GW purchase in about 12 months. I've moved on to a game I enjoy much more. Prettier models, fewer on the table (suits my painting speed), amazing balance and a company that actively involves itself with the community.
blingman wrote: The Last thing we need Is yanks in charge.
This thread just sums up how jealous the americans are that the best and most successful gaming company Is english.
Troll harder.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I give you exhibit A, this users last post, from back in March..
blingman wrote: This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact.
It stems from jealousy I think, the uk has the top spot in wargaming and some folk just cannot take it.
Bottom line is Gw is fine and IS the hobby to most people.
Obvious Troll Account is Obvious, I recommend no one give this person any more attention.
blingman wrote: The Last thing we need Is yanks in charge.
This thread just sums up how jealous the americans are that the best and most successful gaming company Is english.
blingman wrote: The Last thing we need Is yanks in charge.
This thread just sums up how jealous the americans are that the best and most successful gaming company Is english.
GW never has been the most successful gaming company. Most successful wargame company sure, maybe 10 years ago.
Now they've handily been overtaken by PP, who is more successful and better. Not bigger, more successful. Success is not pissing off your fanbase and alienating existing customers.
While it isn't impossible that it's a second account, the sign up date is two years ago, so it either shows a remarkable degree of foresight, exemplary restraint in it's use, or it is just someone who pops in occasionally to be a bit..inflammatory.
Rest assured, if it is a duplicate, the mods will catch it.
To be fair I don't think anyone predicted MLP would explode like it did - plus the way it exploded its kind of a free ticket for any owning company to make a fortune from (esp considering that its basically gone like HelloKitty in that you can slap a pony on anything and make it sell )
I vote yes, because hasbro gives magic the gathering and it's community wonderfull support and puts the way GW treatd it's player base to shame. Also greatly supports the FLGS that sells their product. They are not at war with their partners like GW is.
D&D 4th is the only sore point for them in regards to their player base. 4th ed D&D is a great rpg. The problem is it's not a D&D game. They have even said that was their biggeat mistake when makeing it.
Also yes the My little pony reboot is amazing. Thow thats a case of a perfect storm of talent comeing together. I'm not 100% sure how much of a hand hasbro had in makeing that happen.
Then we can finally have PonyK, Warhammer:Orks in DisGiZ.
And the, Warhammer, The Gathering
I'd love to see a Warhammer card game do well..
D&D 4th is the only sore point for them in regards to their player base. 4th ed D&D is a great rpg. The problem is it's not a D&D game. They have even said that was their biggeat mistake when makeing it.
Please, that's only just to please that angry grognards. 3E and 3.5E is drastic enough that people hated it from 2E, and to many of them it wouldn't be DND, to first edition players it would be a tragic hilarity that people called 2E a dnd game at all, It's as much DnD as the rest, calling it something else is just something to placate the grognards.
As it is, Hasbro still would do better then GW as it comes down to what works.
Hasbro has had bad times, and good times...GW can't seem to find anything good lately.
I WANT the management to change. GW have done some amazing things in the past, and I do think the company ought to stay British because patriotism and because there is so much about 40K, especially early on, that is uniquely British.
D&D 4th is the only sore point for them in regards to their player base. 4th ed D&D is a great rpg. The problem is it's not a D&D game. They have even said that was their biggeat mistake when makeing it.
Please, that's only just to please that angry grognards. 3E and 3.5E is drastic enough that people hated it from 2E, and to many of them it wouldn't be DND, to first edition players it would be a tragic hilarity that people called 2E a dnd game at all, It's as much DnD as the rest, calling it something else is just something to placate the grognards.
As it is, Hasbro still would do better then GW as it comes down to what works.
Hasbro has had bad times, and good times...GW can't seem to find anything good lately.
I acctully realy like 4th ed, sadly in some gameing circules that will bassicly get you lynched. lol
But you still can't ignore the back-lash that 4th ed caused, and how Pathfinder came and picked up a huge part of the D&D player base. But the big diffrence between GW and Hasbro is how they are handleing the issues.
Hasbro: Aw shoot we just lost a huge chunk of the player base! We need to generate more sales of product with FLGS programs like D&D encounters! Still isn't working? Let's write a new edition to adress the issues players are haveing with our game.
GW: Profits are down! Quick! Time to raise prices and force more core product into direct sales only so we make a bigger profit margin! People didn't like out 6th ed supplements! We need 7th ed to FORCE people to use them!
D&D 4th is the only sore point for them in regards to their player base. 4th ed D&D is a great rpg. The problem is it's not a D&D game. They have even said that was their biggeat mistake when makeing it.
Please, that's only just to please that angry grognards. 3E and 3.5E is drastic enough that people hated it from 2E, and to many of them it wouldn't be DND, to first edition players it would be a tragic hilarity that people called 2E a dnd game at all, It's as much DnD as the rest, calling it something else is just something to placate the grognards.
As it is, Hasbro still would do better then GW as it comes down to what works.
Hasbro has had bad times, and good times...GW can't seem to find anything good lately.
I acctully realy like 4th ed, sadly in some gameing circules that will bassicly get you lynched. lol
Same, but what can you do. I still rage to this day when I hear "Why don't you play a real version of DnD?"
But as stated, Hasbro has been doing good things as well as bad, while GW.. Well I hope 7th is good, cause seeing Ezekial summon a daemon give me much pause.
D&D 4th is the only sore point for them in regards to their player base. 4th ed D&D is a great rpg. The problem is it's not a D&D game. They have even said that was their biggeat mistake when makeing it.
Please, that's only just to please that angry grognards. 3E and 3.5E is drastic enough that people hated it from 2E, and to many of them it wouldn't be DND, to first edition players it would be a tragic hilarity that people called 2E a dnd game at all, It's as much DnD as the rest, calling it something else is just something to placate the grognards.
As it is, Hasbro still would do better then GW as it comes down to what works.
Hasbro has had bad times, and good times...GW can't seem to find anything good lately.
I acctully realy like 4th ed, sadly in some gameing circules that will bassicly get you lynched. lol
Same, but what can you do. I still rage to this day when I hear "Why don't you play a real version of DnD?"
But as stated, Hasbro has been doing good things as well as bad, while GW.. Well I hope 7th is good, cause seeing Ezekial summon a daemon give me much pause.
Not to mention the head scrather of unbound armies.
Fantsey magic phase is something i've wanted in 40k for awhile. The objective deck sounds interesting, but could easily be terrible.
Actually, one can only vote YES, after what Hasbro did with the My Little Pony franchise for the last few years.
What, you mean turned it into a monstrous, bloated, pus-seeping cash-cow of Nurgle with a colossal "fanbase" of pedophilic manchildren?
No thanks. The day MLP gets officially related to 40K is the day I put a bolt shell through my head (as well as everyone else's).
So if a TV show gets linked to a game, you will kill other people and then yourself?
And you call fans of that TV show "manchildren"?
Also on the topic of 4E DnD. I also liked it. I never got a lot of the criticism against it. With a good GM there really wasn't anything you could do in previous editions that you couldn't do in 4th and it gave non-magic based classes something more interesting to do than "Hit enemy with sword/club/rock etc."
Actually, one can only vote YES, after what Hasbro did with the My Little Pony franchise for the last few years.
What, you mean turned it into a monstrous, bloated, pus-seeping cash-cow of Nurgle with a colossal "fanbase" of pedophilic manchildren?
No thanks. The day MLP gets officially related to 40K is the day I put a bolt shell through my head (as well as everyone else's).
...said the guy with the little anime girl as an avatar.
On topic:
I don't even care any more. I don't think Hasboro could do much worse, but in the off chance they did do worse, I'd buy just as much Warhammer stuff as I do right now, IE, none at all. So I'm going to vote "Yes", but not an enthusiastic yes. If they do better then I'll be buying again.
Also on the topic of 4E DnD. I also liked it. I never got a lot of the criticism against it. With a good GM there really wasn't anything you could do in previous editions that you couldn't do in 4th and it gave non-magic based classes something more interesting to do than "Hit enemy with sword/club/rock etc."
Playing having GM'd the current edition of gamma world, which is built on 4th ed DnD, with no previous DnD experience, I never felt any sort of restrictions or lack of options. Granted, I had to get creative with things (and by get creative, I mean get completely sloshed on white Russians and pull everything out of my ass as we went), but compared to the games of Pathfinder I've played, I felt I had given my players more options.
D&D 4th is the only sore point for them in regards to their player base. 4th ed D&D is a great rpg. The problem is it's not a D&D game. They have even said that was their biggeat mistake when makeing it.
Please, that's only just to please that angry grognards. 3E and 3.5E is drastic enough that people hated it from 2E, and to many of them it wouldn't be DND, to first edition players it would be a tragic hilarity that people called 2E a dnd game at all, It's as much DnD as the rest, calling it something else is just something to placate the grognards.
As it is, Hasbro still would do better then GW as it comes down to what works.
Hasbro has had bad times, and good times...GW can't seem to find anything good lately.
I acctully realy like 4th ed, sadly in some gameing circules that will bassicly get you lynched. lol
But you still can't ignore the back-lash that 4th ed caused, and how Pathfinder came and picked up a huge part of the D&D player base. But the big diffrence between GW and Hasbro is how they are handleing the issues.
Hasbro: Aw shoot we just lost a huge chunk of the player base! We need to generate more sales of product with FLGS programs like D&D encounters! Still isn't working? Let's write a new edition to adress the issues players are haveing with our game.
GW: Profits are down! Quick! Time to raise prices and force more core product into direct sales only so we make a bigger profit margin! People didn't like out 6th ed supplements! We need 7th ed to FORCE people to use them!
I have said it before, I will say it again - 4e did not need to be a replacement product for D&D.
Had they called it D&D Tactics, or the like - and run it in parallel with D&D (3.x architecture) then there would have been room for both systems.
WotC tried to force 4e as a replacement, ignored playtesters, then insulted their fanbase... and were left wondering why 4e was not doing as well as they had hoped.
Add to this the fact that they outright lied about 4e being in the works, and the horror that was the GSL.
The difference between WotC and GW - WotC has admitted that they screwed up. They have admitted that they pissed off their old fanbase when trying to grab new marketshare.
Then they stole a page from the playbook of the company that replaced them as the #1 RPG - and had a public playtest, letting folks know that their feedback was being used, and giving fair warning that a new edition was again on the horizon.
GW gave how much notice that 7th edition WH40K was coming out? Less than a month?
Even 4e D&D had more notice than that.
Hasbro makes mistakes, learns from them, and moves on.
GW makes mistakes, makes new mistakes to get rid of the old mistakes, then makes even more mistakes to replace those mistakes....
And the white knights come out to defend the company that makes crappy rules against the folks that are fed up with getting crappy rules.
It is going on two years since last I bought a GW product.
The last GW product that I got was terrain - that I do not use with a GW game. I use it with Kings of War. (Well... a correction there - I also use the terrain with Mordheim, which used to be a GW game. (And still should be, dammit!))
Now, do not get me wrong - I think that 6e WH40K lost GW a lot of sales. They kind of need to make 7e... and I hope that 7e makes the changes needed to help the game regain marketshare.
But I doubt that I will be interested in the game, and my hopes that it actually fixes the problems are low.
Also yes the My little pony reboot is amazing. Thow thats a case of a perfect storm of talent comeing together. I'm not 100% sure how much of a hand hasbro had in makeing that happen.
Hasbro gave a woman who knew what she was doing a lot of creative control and left her to gather that perfect storm of talent and the result, even ignoring the entire internet side of it with bronies and all that, is still a massively popular show that no one expected.
Pretty much all of its success came down to Hasbro letting the creator do what she wanted and that is exactly why I want Hasbro to get their hands on the 40k IP.
They are good at putting their products in the hands of the right people then leaving it alone so long as those people are making money off it.
Just imagine how great 40k could be if the accountants and lawyers infesting the studio where gone and the 'old guard' guys could replace them with people enthusiastic about the hobby with complete creative freedom.
Also yes the My little pony reboot is amazing. Thow thats a case of a perfect storm of talent comeing together. I'm not 100% sure how much of a hand hasbro had in makeing that happen.
If anything Hasbro gets in the way with constantly dictating "X toy line must feature in the show", "lead character must now be a princess", "lets make a spin-off where they turn into humans go to high school and have crushes"... etc. etc.
It's a credit to the skill of people making the show that they've managed to meet the requirements of all of Hasbro's crappy demands and keep the show good despite it.
In the season finale which aired yesterday, a new crystal castle treehouse (clear "Hasbro wants to sell this toy" thing) was added. Looks really ugly, but the writers took the boardroom demand and used it as an excuse to destroy the main characters previous treehouse home and have all her books burnt to a crisp... an episode two weeks prior focused on her realizing how much sentimental value they had to her, so it was setup for a real gut-punch moment when they all burn.
Here's an image that maybe shows it off better, definitely an extremely good creative team, rather than any credit going to Hasbro's board-room, if anything their contribution is a negative one.:
Spoiler:
[Pony gak ends here ]
Anyway, in short, I'm very familar with how Hasbro rolls, and they would meddle, rather a lot, probably changing some of the more "child unfriendly" background for American audiences.. it would be as jarring as the jump from grimdark rogue trader to candy pop primary colours 2nd edition 40k, something which 40k background still hasn't recovered from, IMO.
They would run TV ads though and make more board games, so it would increase in popularity.. might lose some of the charm it currently has.
The current creative team and management are mostly leaving the background alone while wrecking the rules/ balance/ everything for sales purposes.
Hasbro ownership might result in better rules and a better game and more specialist/ board games, but with a butchered background in places, or, more likely the introduction of completely new and stupid ideas that don't fit the setting at all.
I don't have faith in the current 40k creative/ writing team to be able to take whatever a Hasbro board-room can throw at them without messing up the background, there isn't the passion for a quality product in that design studio as it currently stands. Anyone with passion and talent got fired a long time ago for not fitting in (and are now doing just fine outside of GW, see Blizzard, Warlord, Mantic etc.) , all that's left is subservient mediocrity.
Hasbro ownership might result in better rules and a better game and more specialist/ board games, but with a butchered background in places, or, more likely the introduction of completely new and stupid ideas that don't fit the setting at all.
That depends, they don't butcher WOTC's MTG cards despite some of them being rather horrific.
Different audience though, from Hasbro's perspective, purchasing GW would be purchasing a boys' toys company and board-room decisions would focus on the 7-12 year old market... or more accurately, what they think the 7-12 year old boys market wants, despite not having much of a clue.
Stuff like pre-paints and blindbox buying could possibly happen.
Commercially good decisions, but it would mark a definite shift to a more toylike line.
Then again, I think GW of recent years has been doing quite a lot of that anyway, the focus on giant models is basically action figures for rich kids.
Additionally, I'm sure that Hasbro would take into account the value and demographic of long term customers. Young boys are great for a quick pump-and-dump, but I'd imagine mature consumers provide a good, steady flow of income that is important during non-peak times.
Ill be honest its difficult to say if that is a smart move or not.
If Hasbro keeps the current designers and model makers on board I think it could be amazing. But at the moment I don't think Hasbro knows the hobby well enough to take it on.
I think Hasbro will be excellent at fixing the current prices, getting younger generation into the game, and providing more content. But I think they will destroy the overall game unless they keep it in the hands of those who know it.
There focus is no young kids 12 and under, so they will introduce new ideas to pull them in and older generations like us will most likely hate. An in the long term, killing it.
zombie_sky_diver wrote: Their focus is on young kids 12 and under, so they will introduce new ideas to pull them in and older generations like us will most likely hate. An in the long term, killing it.
So, no change from GW, then?
When I was 12 years old I was playing Avalon Hill wargames, System 7 Napoleonics, and Chainmail.... And thought that Legos were the best toys ever.
Cannot resist weighing in on a 4th debate. I think it was an alright game, but not a good successor to the DnD title. There, I said it. One can see the logical progression from basic to AD&D to 3.0 to 3.5 then abruptly 4E comes out of nowhere. I didn't mind it but I find Pathfinder superior. And the sales figures speak for themselves.
Anyway, Hasbro. I don't think Hasbro would be any worse or better for 40k and fantasy. While Hasbro is bound to make better business decisions than GW and go over to basing prices off the US dollar so prices make sense the world over, (the pound's monopoly on miniature wargaming sales annoys me) the world will lose some of that dark british humor that makes them distinct from other sci fi anf fantasy universes (and this is coming from someone who hates grim dark usually). However, if GW flops I think hasbro will probably snap up the warhammer licences, because they have been slowly assimilating all aspects of geek culture.
EmilCrane wrote: Cannot resist weighing in on a 4th debate. I think it was an alright game, but not a good successor to the DnD title. There, I said it. One can see the logical progression from basic to AD&D to 3.0 to 3.5 then abruptly 4E comes out of nowhere. I didn't mind it but I find Pathfinder superior. And the sales figures speak for themselves.
Anyway, Hasbro. I don't think Hasbro would be any worse or better for 40k and fantasy. While Hasbro is bound to make better business decisions than GW and go over to basing prices off the US dollar so prices make sense the world over, (the pound's monopoly on miniature wargaming sales annoys me) the world will lose some of that dark british humor that makes them distinct from other sci fi anf fantasy universes (and this is coming from someone who hates grim dark usually). However, if GW flops I think hasbro will probably snap up the warhammer licences, because they have been slowly assimilating all aspects of geek culture.
Up until that horrid Essentials line 4E still overtook Pathfinder, once Essentials came, which were more...attuned to former DnD and kinda crapped on 4E, sales dropped and they lost the market share.
EmilCrane wrote: Cannot resist weighing in on a 4th debate. I think it was an alright game, but not a good successor to the DnD title. There, I said it. One can see the logical progression from basic to AD&D to 3.0 to 3.5 then abruptly 4E comes out of nowhere. I didn't mind it but I find Pathfinder superior. And the sales figures speak for themselves.
Anyway, Hasbro. I don't think Hasbro would be any worse or better for 40k and fantasy. While Hasbro is bound to make better business decisions than GW and go over to basing prices off the US dollar so prices make sense the world over, (the pound's monopoly on miniature wargaming sales annoys me) the world will lose some of that dark british humor that makes them distinct from other sci fi anf fantasy universes (and this is coming from someone who hates grim dark usually). However, if GW flops I think hasbro will probably snap up the warhammer licences, because they have been slowly assimilating all aspects of geek culture.
Up until that horrid Essentials line 4E still overtook Pathfinder, once Essentials came, which were more...attuned to former DnD and kinda crapped on 4E, sales dropped and they lost the market share.
True, but DnD in any form losing its market share at all still speaks for itself, doesn't matter how it happened, they dropped the ball with 4E and Paizo overtook them. Those are the facts.
EmilCrane wrote: Cannot resist weighing in on a 4th debate. I think it was an alright game, but not a good successor to the DnD title. There, I said it. One can see the logical progression from basic to AD&D to 3.0 to 3.5 then abruptly 4E comes out of nowhere. I didn't mind it but I find Pathfinder superior. And the sales figures speak for themselves.
Anyway, Hasbro. I don't think Hasbro would be any worse or better for 40k and fantasy. While Hasbro is bound to make better business decisions than GW and go over to basing prices off the US dollar so prices make sense the world over, (the pound's monopoly on miniature wargaming sales annoys me) the world will lose some of that dark british humor that makes them distinct from other sci fi anf fantasy universes (and this is coming from someone who hates grim dark usually). However, if GW flops I think hasbro will probably snap up the warhammer licences, because they have been slowly assimilating all aspects of geek culture.
Well this is in my sphere of influence so I know some certain other aspects on 4th ED. Long story Short. The licensing of 4th Ed was unacceptable to several 3rd party companies that gave strong support to 3.5 previously.
The customer base also did not want 4th ED. And what did you know Pathfinder was born. It is kind of nice to be able to talk to game designers of certain games and get their honest opinion on what is happening to the gaming industry of today.
And though my NDA agreements are done I enjoy having my contacts in how things are created, produced, marketed (still have friends in a major ad firm for the far east), and distributed.
What is selling is the continued trend that you have been seeing since 2007. Board games are up. Card games are up. Miniature games are more or less up. Games Workshop? heh,....
My previous still stands as well as the following. The illusion of how big Games Workshop is is just that. An illusion in my eyes. I do not believe that they are that strong globally as they have been restructuring for the past 4 years in a downward trend. They had their chance but I believe they blew it to be something special.
It would not surprise me one bit in the near future is England will be their last stronghold left. The rest of the world will have to get their product online or through a few distributors.
I do not think they (Hasbro) wants to deal with an IP such as Games Workshop.
I think that the results are very remarkable. GW is widely reviled on these forums and yet only 48% want GW to be bought out by Hasbro. This does not speak highly of our regard for Hasbro.
I think it would be best if the GW IP died. People could still play the games and use the models, but would not be beholden to a company that is seeking to make money off of them.
Feth no. GW for all its faults is a unique and original company who has created down the years unique IP and given me some awesome memories. Sure I hate the power creep and badly playtested rules but I was playing second edition till 6th was released For all their problems we get miniatures at fairly industry standard rates (as far as I am aware) and they do try new stuff all the times...they need money and can understand where their crazy decisions originate from and hope that they learn from it. im hoping it swings back without a large company coming in and keeper of secret's it to death. and going back to rogue trader...it's your game!! don't like something change it with your mates. Drink more beer. Write up your own strategy cards or something. I do miss the days of fricking make your own scenery in WD though..
spaceelf wrote: I think that the results are very remarkable. GW is widely reviled on these forums and yet only 48% want GW to be bought out by Hasbro. This does not speak highly of our regard for Hasbro.
I think it would be best if the GW IP died. People could still play the games and use the models, but would not be beholden to a company that is seeking to make money off of them.
On the contrary, 48% is amazingly substantial. Note that 48% want it to happen. 26% don't care, which is as good for Hasbro as wanting it to happen, and only 26%, one quarter of responses, don't want it to happen.
That's much, much higher than I thought it would be. Those results demonstrate that, at least as far as DakkaDakka is concerned, wanting Hasbro buy out GW is not some sort of minority opinion.
Just because Hasbro managed to somehow not screw up a single game (MTG) doesn't change the long trail of corpses they've left behind them. Hasbro does make good games, and can manage IP well, but it only makes certain kinds of games well, and it only does a good job with some IP.
Hasbro can handle anything mainstream with relative success. Anything that one could imagine being plugged into the Disney fold (there are obvious reasons why the two companies work together) is something they can handle. But they don't do weird, they don't do complex, and they don't do hobby. If they got their hands on it, 40k would turn into an action-figure monopoly rip-off.
It would become a toy, not a game.
They could hand it over to WoC, of course, but they don't have a great track record outside of their one flagship product either. Or worse, of course, they turn 40k into MTG, and all of those things people hate about 40k will only get accelerated to crazy new levels. MTG works because its a card game. As a tabletop miniature wargame it would be a disaster.
If, for whatever reason, GW had to sell off, I'd hope it goes to Fantasy Flight. Yes, yes, they have their own wonkiness (you thought 40k had a lot of pieces before!), but at least they're not afraid to tackle complicated games and let weird things stay weird. They also have a history of handling 40k's IP in a decent fashion.
The last time there was a thread about Hasbro buying GW, I (rather vociferously-- my apologies) pointed out that GW doesn't fit the criteria for the type of companies Hasbro buys.
1) Hasbro buys success. They bought WotC for ccgs and have purchased some breakout hit boardgame companies, but I don't think they've ever swooped in on a flailing company and bought them out. 2) Hasbro doesn't need GW's injection moulding infrastructure as their toy manufacturing infrastructure is already much, much larger and more developed. 3) Hasbro doesn't need GW's retail stores. They are committed to working with existing toy retailers and when they did end up with some WotC company stores, they closed them pretty quickly. 4) Hasbro doesn't need GW's trade sales contacts. They are already in every comic and gaming shop because of Magic: The Gathering and they already work with every distributor.
So while I would love someone as aware of what gamers want as Mark Rosewater in charge of 40k, I don't think it's going to happen. I understand GW made some contact with Hasbro and their most recently added board member is a specialist in mergers and acquisitions, but I think getting Hasbro to bite is a herculean task.
Frozen, I agree with you on all points. However, GW has an asset in the IP that could be worth the value of the company.
I'm not saying Hasbro wants to buy GW for its IP, but that would be an understandable reason to acquire the company. Hasbro may have been interested in a license, but GW isn't giving up a license to Hasbro for a reasonable rate or terms. Hasbro would have to buy the company.
scarletsquig wrote: Here's an image that maybe shows it off better, definitely an extremely good creative team, rather than any credit going to Hasbro's board-room, if anything their contribution is a negative one.
Creative team hired by...?
Hasbro isn't a NGO. They're here to sell toys. But they hire good writers, and they still give them some freedom, even when trying to push sales.
I don't know if Cruddace and Ward are poor writers, have way too much constraints, or both. I don't know if they should be given more freedom or if they should be sacked. And frankly, I don't care : I'm a customer, not a GW executive.
I only see poor overpriced products that I don't really want to buy.
Another interesting aspect is the relationship to customers. Hasbro is not interfering much with the community or the way authors interact with the community. They do remove some videos from Youtube from time to time, and they didn't give the authorization to use their IP in some projects (Fighting is Magic comes to mind), which is disappointing, but it's miles away from GW's attitude. ***cough*** Spots the Space Marine.
Mind you, we're talking about a toy company that chose to look elsewhere when people make and sell My Little Pony plushes.
Ugavine wrote: Hasbro does NOT know the gaming industry, they only know the family gaming industry, which is what they do well.
Yeah, they clearly don't know gaming, which is why MTG is such a hopeless failure.
As for their other games:
The Star Wars games died because of license issues, not WOTC's decisions. IIRC the games were successful, but when the license was up for renewal the new terms were financial suicide.
D&D had problems with 4th edition, but WOTC is at least attempting to fix those problems based on player feedback, something GW refuses to do. And note that one of the biggest problems WOTC has with D&D is their incredibly generous license terms (essentially "use the core rules in your products for free, just put a D20 logo on the cover") for the 3rd edition rules, which allowed a competing company to make D&D in all but name.
D&D miniatures (and their other minor games) suffered from the problem of not having any realistic market, something GW's IP doesn't have a problem with.
They gave up Star Wars because they ran out of ideas! Seriously, a role-playing company that ran out of ideas? With Star Wars?!
They didnt renew their license, which is expensive. There's only so many times you can sell the main characters and people are less interested in cantina alien #12. Its the same issue Hasbro runs into with their action figures.
They messed up D&D minis with rules changes, and role-players are not going to buy random packs.
The rules change was necessitated by the move to a new edition, but it was actually the non-random packs is what killed D&D minis, since to get more trolls stores had to get more unicorns. Random packs sold VERY well to RPG players, and you had no waste with pegwarmers that didn't move as much. Witness the success of Pathfinder's minis if you want to talk about RPG players not buying random packs, and those are 3-4 times as expensive per figure. Like MTG, boosters didnt rot in stores after the sets went OOP. Non-random, and rising costs (which lead to paint step cutbacks and crappy sculpts) killed it.
weeble1000 wrote:I'm not saying Hasbro wants to buy GW for its IP, but that would be an understandable reason to acquire the company. Hasbro may have been interested in a license, but GW isn't giving up a license to Hasbro for a reasonable rate or terms. Hasbro would have to buy the company.
What is Hasbro (or anyone) going to do with the IP that would warrant purchasing the company at anything close to it's current valuation? If Hasbro thinks that 40k action figures or toys might sell well, it's probably a lot cheaper to hire some artists and product developers to make a line of toys that has those elements than to buy GW. 40k doesn't have the name brand recognition of Star Wars, GI Joe, etc., that would cause the sale of products on the scale Hasbro requires.
It might be GW has bad terms for licensing, but if you look at it in real terms, their IP hasn't done much outside of their miniature wargaming sales channels. There's been some video games and some board and RPG games, but licensing revenue makes a small portion of their revenue. I remember in 2008 when the talk was about Warhammer Online was going to bring in tons of cash for GW and everything would be great. It never broke a million registered users and slowly dwindled down to under 300,000 and then closed after five years of mediocrity.
40k may be the largest IP in the miniature wargaming hobby, but to pay hundreds of millions of pounds in order to publish with it?
One very important measure in Hasbro's acquisition research is a relative measure of brand equity - even more important than financials. Brand equity basically predicts what could be done with a brand. Thus why, Hasbro would never typically purchase a $7 million company (which is peanuts compared to their size), except when they found such a massively positive brand equity that Avalon Hill made sense.
GW's brand equity is in the toilet. Sorry, but it is. That has been leaked from both Hasbro and Warner Brothers. That alone, will keep Hasbro from even considering purchasing GW. Too much money would have to be spent just to rebuild a brand that the boneheads running GW are destroying. Hasbro could spend A LOT less money developing and marketing a competing IP than they would fixing GW. It is simple business and one which has served Hasbro well.
So while hopeful, pigs will fly, fish will dance, and pigeons will make the next blockbuster movie before Hasbro would acquire GW.
Then we can finally have PonyK, Warhammer:Orks in DisGiZ.
And the, Warhammer, The Gathering
I'd love to see a Warhammer card game do well..
D&D 4th is the only sore point for them in regards to their player base. 4th ed D&D is a great rpg. The problem is it's not a D&D game. They have even said that was their biggeat mistake when makeing it.
Please, that's only just to please that angry grognards. 3E and 3.5E is drastic enough that people hated it from 2E, and to many of them it wouldn't be DND, to first edition players it would be a tragic hilarity that people called 2E a dnd game at all, It's as much DnD as the rest, calling it something else is just something to placate the grognards.
QFT. 3rd edition catered entirely to the spreadsheet crowd that wanted to track 47 different types of bonuses and remember that their +1 circumstance bonus to AC vs. orcs with piercing weapons wears off 27 rounds after eating a pancake. Don't forget unlimited out of combat healing from poking each other with CLW sticks. God forbid you have to think around a problem rather than have the Wizard/Cleric/Druid cast yet another spell to solve the adventure. But people whined because their wizard was only somewhat better than the fighter rather than astronomically better. 3rd edition/pathfinder is great if you'd rather be doing accounting than actually playing the game. If I had to endure another combat where someone cast Mass Dispel Magic and we had to pause for 10+ minutes because every single PC/monster/NPC stats needed to be completely readjusted I'll puke.
Paizo does make great adventures, which I'll remain content to steal for an easier system to run. But 'm too damn old now to spend 15 minutes making a NPC who will live 2 rounds of combat if he's lucky. D&D Next looks like it might do the trick.
Peregrine wrote: Yeah, they clearly don't know gaming, which is why MTG is such a hopeless failure.
Honestly, MtG is pretty much the 40k of card games. A really horrible system that has been kept alive because it was the first of its kind to "make it big" and as such people don't want to switch over to another system by this point even though it is better designed. On that line of reasoning I suppose WotC would be a perfect fit for 40k. Just do the same stuff they do with MtG and call it a day. People will buy it.
Would anyone else fear that 40k would turn into a pre-painted miniature game? I mean, has WotC done anything along the lines of miniatures that aren't pre-painted blind packs? I know that that's one of the main issues I would have with WotC picking up Games Workshop's IP is the removal of the hobby and the implementation of a purely game-focused use of the IP.
Well considering how Hasbro actually listens to its fans (you think MLP would be what it is without all those bronies-love them or hate them Hasbro actually listens to them), and as such they make more money.
GW seems allergic to money and Hasbro is more then willing to take it, and I'd be more happy to give it to them.
Darth Bob wrote: Would anyone else fear that 40k would turn into a pre-painted miniature game?
At least we'd see something other than grey. You can always repaint a prepainted miniature, but a grey miniature is always a grey miniature. Prepaints have come a long way - the X-Wing game, for example, has some fantastic stuff.
Wayshuba wrote: and pigeons will make the next blockbuster movie before Hasbro would acquire GW.
I like what you are saying about Hollywood .
Heaps of you guys are mentioning how great and valuable the GW IP is. It really isn't , He-Man and the Masters of the universe would be comparable ( and that was marketed well). It isn't unique, it isn't well written, it isn't even non-derivative , I've never really seen the attraction to the GW IP, guess I never will.
Chaos is basically a 4 part power setup similar to earth ,fire, air and water , just based around the seven sins instead . The emperor is a god there to save humanity but is ill or depowered or whatever (wow never read that before in a fantasy book) resulting in that his "angels" are the only thing standing between humanity and destruction. Other than the angels, humanity is doomed.
wow , unique and so valuable. There are also space elves and space orcs and space dark elves, space Aliens and manga inspired stuff in space in space, oh wait manga was already in space. It is one thing to like something, it's another to have a skewed perspective
Yeah I've read GW IP fluff, I have enjoyed some, but honestly to think it's something special?
Yeah I've read GW IP fluff, I have enjoyed some, but honestly to think it's something special?
It is honestly a unique thing. It is their fantasy works taken to space, tossing in some 1984, Dune, and Issac Asimov's Foundation peppered with Aliens in there somewhere.
As time has gone on, it has formed into its own thing with its own lore and works and added other pieces in. Obviously, historical context should also be looked at when trying to find more specific references.
In short it is special, but like everything else, has its origins from other creations.
Hasbro won't want the retail chain, and have their own manufacturing. There's really only the IP and some creative staff, everything else is part of a bloated system that is part of the problem with GW. The IP could be worth something but it's all GW are worth, Hasbro won't want to buy and maintain all the retail arm and facilities but if GW falls apart and the IP is there for the picking, then they might go for it. If the IP has value, GW has done it no favours by demonstrating in court how poorly defended it is.
At least we'd see something other than grey. You can always repaint a prepainted miniature, but a grey miniature is always a grey miniature. Prepaints have come a long way - the X-Wing game, for example, has some fantastic stuff.
Thought they were pretty bad myself - not up to what is generally called 'tabletop level' in wargaming circles.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if GW at some point experimented with the idea. However, I think most people would be repulsed about the cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayshuba wrote: It's all hopeful but Hasbro will not buy GW.
One very important measure in Hasbro's acquisition research is a relative measure of brand equity - even more important than financials. Brand equity basically predicts what could be done with a brand. Thus why, Hasbro would never typically purchase a $7 million company (which is peanuts compared to their size), except when they found such a massively positive brand equity that Avalon Hill made sense.
GW's brand equity is in the toilet. Sorry, but it is. That has been leaked from both Hasbro and Warner Brothers. That alone, will keep Hasbro from even considering purchasing GW. Too much money would have to be spent just to rebuild a brand that the boneheads running GW are destroying. Hasbro could spend A LOT less money developing and marketing a competing IP than they would fixing GW. It is simple business and one which has served Hasbro well.
I actually agree with this - GW, as long as it's profitable, is just way too expensive buy for what it offers. If their fortunes dip - sales drop further, they start making actual loss etc - then the stock price might drop sufficiently enough for it become an attractive buy. But merely paying hundreds of millions USD for Warhammer/40k IP would make zero sense.
Darth Bob wrote: Would anyone else fear that 40k would turn into a pre-painted miniature game?
At least we'd see something other than grey. You can always repaint a prepainted miniature, but a grey miniature is always a grey miniature. Prepaints have come a long way - the X-Wing game, for example, has some fantastic stuff.
It's not just about painting, though. The removal from sprues, converting, and assembly of models is an integral part of the hobby and the implementation of pre-painted miniatures completely removes that aspect. While I do agree that pre-painted miniature games have come a long way (I've played HeroClix for many years and have collected Pathfinder, D&D, and Star Wars minis) I'm also going to have to disagree that they're even close to being on the detail/intricacy level of standard non-painted models. The gap between pre-painted and assemble/paint models is a big one and I am not interested in seeing 40k go from being a hobby to something like Star Wars/D&D minis. That, for me, would be the death of 40k. If being picked up by Hasbro/WotC means turning the 40k IP into a CMG, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it.
Yes, part of the appeal for 40k for me is ability to build an army which is mine, which is at least somehow distinct from everyone else's. This is one reason why say, X-wing has little appeal for me.
However, I think the idea here is that pre-painted minis would be offered as an alternative rather than replacement for unpainted/assembled ones. I have nothing against that and I take some people would be willing to buy pre-painted minis. Though, I think they'd be quite expensive so I doubt they'd become a big hit. Probably like 50% more expensive than current range...
Aside from the occassional misstep GW continues to handle the fluff of 40K rather well.
No, it doesn't. GW doesn't seem to understand what makes its own background interesting hence the over saturation of GRIM DARK, cartoonish characterisations and outright stupid that seems to be the hallmarks of GW's writing staff these days. If you want to read 40k fluff done right read the FFGRPG source books.
Fantasy Flight's exactly who I'd want to buy GW, if only they could afford it.
Ok first of all Hasbro is not buying GW its judt one of is many shareholders!
Secund i dont understand why people bitch on GW yes its expensive but every hobby is. Just going in a restaurant is easily over 40 euros if you want something else than a burger.
Dont forget that the quality is getting better. And printing is truelly an expensive thing. Trust me i work at a printing companu. Yes its more expensive than 3y ago but so is bread, food. Even to pi i have to pay! So stop bitching or just quit.
You can never make everyone happy. I mean i cold be anoyed that the dark eldar are always at the end of the line and just have to borrow from eldar but hey cant change. No boycot or bitching will change if yo want it to change buy GW yourself.
NyuLuna wrote: Ok first of all Hasbro is not buying GW its judt one of is many shareholders!
Secund i dont understand why people bitch on GW yes its expensive but every hobby is. Just going in a restaurant is easily over 40 euros if you want something else than a burger.
Dont forget that the quality is getting better. And printing is truelly an expensive thing. Trust me i work at a printing companu. Yes its more expensive than 3y ago but so is bread, food. Even to pi i have to pay! So stop bitching or just quit.
You can never make everyone happy. I mean i cold be anoyed that the dark eldar are always at the end of the line and just have to borrow from eldar but hey cant change. No boycot or bitching will change if yo want it to change buy GW yourself.
It appears English is not your first language.
Regardless, whatever dialect you put it in the above argument is a red herring, or the equivalent expression in Belgium...
Howard A Treesong wrote:If the IP has value, GW has done it no favours by demonstrating in court how poorly defended it is.
Yeah. That's was hilarious.
The fact that CHS wasn't immediately shut down probably showed GW just how weak things were. And then when they attempted to stop Spots the Space Marine, they got wide negative attention. The end result? The Imperial Guard getting renamed to some stupid faux-latin so it could be protected.
In the end though, it's all derivative and kitchen sink. There's very little that's actually protect-able and very little actually worth paying to use. GW's IP does have value though. It's useful in selling actual miniatures.
And that's really where any real value in GW's business can be found. They still profitably produce and sell miniatures. Less and less as each year goes by, but they still pull it off. And Hasbro has no need for that business. It's what they'd be buying if they bought GW and it doesn't do what they'd need it to do to make sense for them. They don't need the manufacturing, the distribution or the sales channels. And that's all there is to GW's business other than some derivative IP that's failed in video games and getting any real wide appeal outside of miniature wargaming.
Even FFG does not get it right with artwork and feel. Hasbro or some other big USA based company will turn it into diluted, friendly and full of political correctness heroic crap.
Even FFG does not get it right with artwork and feel.
Have you read their RPG source books? Their board games aren't very good example but the tone and content of their RPGs are far, far superior to the fluff that GW knocks out these days.
Even FFG does not get it right with artwork and feel.
Have you read their RPG source books? Their board games aren't very good example but the tone and content of their RPGs are far, far superior to the fluff that GW knocks out these days.
Hasbro are also not fans of fan sites. When Lucasfilm aggressively closed down lots of Star Wars fan sites a few years back that was led by Hasbro/WOTC. So if Hasbro had the licence Dakka Dakka might have to go.
Even FFG does not get it right with artwork and feel.
Have you read their RPG source books? Their board games aren't very good example but the tone and content of their RPGs are far, far superior to the fluff that GW knocks out these days.
The artwork there is much worse and less 40k ish.
Less 40k ish?
I'd argue is is more gritty and realistic, which I suppose you could call 'less 40k ish' if you where to consider 40k to be the silly, over the top, tongue in cheek mixing pot of sifi and fantasy tropes it began as, but these:
Spoiler:
don't feel any less '40k' than these:
Spoiler:
Nor do they look in any way inferior.
As for fluff, FFG didn't write the stuff in the GK codex....
The FFG art you posted actualy look very cheap and one dimensional for me, it's obvious they don't reallly feel it also no war only the scared guardsman who has time for that, why don't you just die there's billion others on the boarding ramp. They are dark and all but not much 40kish I could exchange armors and it would fit Gears of War or anything just as well. The Astra Militarium cover despite being one of the worse recent GW pictures is still way above them, and is both gritty and epic.The knights I don't like really but quality wise the picture is much better as well.
Noone said USA based company can't do gritty and realistic but I predict it will be just another soulless variation on Killzone or sth and simply worse.
No matter gritty picture or a ridiculous one, GW does it better 9 times out of 10.
You didn't mention rules but Dust Tactics ones were crap imo, the 2nd edition ones sound so much better it's not even funny.
I don't care for fluff that much, only Newcrons were really bad but that was because they led to silly art and even sillier miniatures and now those round, good and noble noblegood Knights make me cringe too. But, just thinking about what a real big business oriented company could do to fluff makes this nothing, a small hiccups.
A picture more comparable to Astra Militarium cover btw:
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes, to some degree but if you believe Hasbro will get it back to that or even won't make it worse, you're wrong.
Am I? And what premises do you base your assumption on? That's right, nothing besides personal bias. Come back when you have convincing arguments that Hasbro would meddle with 40K and take the teeth out of it instead of capitalizing on its qualities to make money, something GW is averse to, apparently.
USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Exactly - the funniest part being that it will most probably be me that is right, assuming ofc that GW will be bought by Hasbro.
Fun fact, I like FFG, I own several games from them including models for Dust Tactics but I can see that the artwork they produce is worse quality, that their models are worse quality (and still expensive as hell) and arguably, even their rules when it comes to skirmish/ tabletop. And I think even they would make 40k worse, and they specialise in games so what to expect of Hasbro? Bloody cosmic grimdark horror with tight balanced tourney ruleset and cheaper miniatures?
Plumbumbarum wrote: USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Because British Petroleum showed just how honest, upstanding, and good natured British companies can be....
I hate to tell you this, but corporations in general lean toward this behavior - and if I were so minded and in a more historical mood I would point out British corporations fomenting wars to improve trade, going back two hundred years and more.... (East India Tea Company sound familiar?)
Plumbumbarum wrote: USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Because British Petroleum showed just how honest, upstanding, and good natured British companies can be....
I hate to tell you this, but corporations in general lean toward this behavior - and if I were so minded and in a more historical mood I would point out British corporations fomenting wars to improve trade, going back two hundred years and more.... (East India Tea Company sound familiar?)
Hasbro is just better at it than GW...
The Auld Grump
It's less about ethics but more about style I think.
Though I'd say, there is fair more chance for respect for the source material when the company is run by its creators, from the same city and nation than when it's bought by a foreign company that does not feel any nostalgia about or connection to the thing. Who would be more likely to sell movie rights to Uwe Boll, Jervis or some Hasbro boss?
btw I'm not some Britain lover but just like any other European country they have times more class when it comes to art. Sorry Americans, just an opinion.
Plumbumbarum wrote: USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Because British Petroleum showed just how honest, upstanding, and good natured British companies can be....
I hate to tell you this, but corporations in general lean toward this behavior - and if I were so minded and in a more historical mood I would point out British corporations fomenting wars to improve trade, going back two hundred years and more.... (East India Tea Company sound familiar?)
Hasbro is just better at it than GW...
The Auld Grump
It's less about ethics but more about style I think.
Though I'd say, there is fair more chance for respect for the source material when the company is run by its creators, from the same city and nation than when it's bought by a foreign company that does not feel any nostalgia about or connection to the thing. Who would be more likely to sell movie rights to Uwe Boll, Jervis or some Hasbro boss?
btw I'm not some Britain lover but just like any other European country they have times more class when it comes to art. Sorry Americans, just an opinion.
How many of the original creators are actually still with GW? Let's face it, GW has become a load of inept accountants and lawyers in suits.
And to the movie question: Jervis. Look at the Ultramarine film made by GW. It was awful.
Hasbro would get Michael Bay in which case we would have an over-the-top, explosion filled blockbuster full of giant robots, giants in power armour and big aliens. In other words, pretty much what a 40K film would be expected to be.
You forgot that Michael Bay would also add fanservice to pander to twelve year old boys, crude humor (like robots who piss or have "scrotums") and casual racism to the 40k universe too.
ClockworkZion wrote: You forgot that Michael Bay would also add fanservice to pander to twelve year old boys, crude humor (like robots who piss or have "scrotums") and casual racism to the 40k universe too.
Hasbro had absolutely nothing to do with AD&D. Try again.[/quote
Are you an idiot? ?? Who bought it from wizards of the sword coast? ??? & trashed it. Blo M.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AD&D was started by TSR. then owned by Wizards of the Sword Coast. Which in turn sold it to Hasbro who then cranked out multiple editions diluting and ruining a great system. I.e. secondedition.AD&D. A town called mulus. Needs to tske a history lesson. Or at least keep quiet about what he or she is ignorant about.
Hasbro had absolutely nothing to do with AD&D. Try again.
Are you an idiot? ?? Who bought it from wizards of the sword coast? ??? & trashed it. Blo M.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AD&D was started by TSR. then owned by Wizards of the Sword Coast. Which in turn sold it to Hasbro who then cranked out multiple editions diluting and ruining a great system. I.e. secondedition.AD&D. A town called mulus. Needs to tske a history lesson. Or at least keep quiet about what he or she is ignorant about.
Except if I am not mistaken, Hasboro left WotC to their own devices more or less. WotC ruined DnD, not Hasboro. Also, calling people names is against the forum rules, so there's that.
GW is the most idiotically run company I have ever seen gross at more than a hundred million a year.
Hasbro on the other hand has earned a strong presence in every facet of the toy industry and shows a surprising deal of respect to it's consumers in it's big lines such as G.I Joe, Transformers, and MLP. WoTC also has the excellently run and handled magic the gathering game and thus experience in how to make a game appeal to both casuals and tournament players.
Hasbro can only make things better.
Also Hasbro will give us far more merchandise, would give us something far better than the Ultramarines movie, and we'd have regular IDW comics for 40k and FB.
When Milton Bradly released Heroquest it was a breakthrough. Talk about increasing audience, providing lots of cheap miniatures, and giving a way of sliding into the Hobby/getting people interested. I suspect Hasbro would do the same- find innovative ways to lower prices? Releasing a boardgame-style box that's like 40k lite with miniatures that are compatible with 40k? Broaden the audience by making it affordable?
ClockworkZion wrote: You forgot that Michael Bay would also add fanservice to pander to twelve year old boys, crude humor (like robots who piss or have "scrotums") and casual racism to the 40k universe too.
Hasbro had absolutely nothing to do with AD&D. Try again.
Are you an idiot? ?? Who bought it from wizards of the sword coast? ??? & trashed it. Blo M.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AD&D was started by TSR. then owned by Wizards of the Sword Coast. Which in turn sold it to Hasbro who then cranked out multiple editions diluting and ruining a great system. I.e. secondedition.AD&D. A town called mulus. Needs to tske a history lesson. Or at least keep quiet about what he or she is ignorant about.
Except if I am not mistaken, Hasboro left WotC to their own devices more or less. WotC ruined DnD, not Hasboro. Also, calling people names is against the forum rules, so there's that.
Edit - the remaining content of your post was in violation of rule #1. MT11
landcruiserlarry wrote: AD&D was started by TSR. then owned by Wizards of the Sword Coast. Which in turn sold it to Hasbro who then cranked out multiple editions diluting and ruining a great system. I.e. secondedition.AD&D. A town called mulus. Needs to tske a history lesson. Or at least keep quiet about what he or she is ignorant about.
A history lesson?
Ad&D Second Edition was published by TSR. Wizards of the Coast (not Sword Coast) purchased TSR. WotC did not sell TSR to Hasbro. WotC itself was purchased by Hasbro.
landcruiserlarry wrote: you said and I quote.... Hasbro has absolutely nothing to do with AD&D.... You are completely wrong.. they own it andeventually put Hasbro logo on the product.
They own it. They had nothing to do with developing it.
ClockworkZion wrote: You forgot that Michael Bay would also add fanservice to pander to twelve year old boys, crude humor (like robots who piss or have "scrotums") and casual racism to the 40k universe too.
And Megan Fox. And REALLY stupid plots.
No thanks.
40K doesn't already have casual racism?
Not like Mudflap and Skids.
If I'm not wrong, they're supposed to be a parody of white people trying to act black. Wiggers.
It should be made more clear though.
Dark of the Moon fixed that by nixing them altogether, though they were originally to be killed off by Sentinel.
40k has huge amounts of casual sexism and racism with virtually no one of importance being a person of colour or having dual X chromosomes who isn't heavily sexualized.
Kain wrote: 40k has huge amounts of casual sexism and racism with virtually no one of importance being a person of colour or having dual X chromosomes who isn't heavily sexualized.
A fantasy world that doesn't depict other races can't be considered racist, really. I think they consciously decided to have the Imperium of 40k emulate Medieval European society, in the sense that most people look European and the society resembles something European. There weren't many black or Asian folks living in Medieval Europe, so there aren't many minorities living in the Imperium. This isn't racist- I'd call it a loose emulation of history, overexaggerated and put in a sci-fi-format.
And women are hardly oversexualized in 40k- look at female inquisitors, the Sisters of Battle, etc. They might be a little under-represented (like where are the female IG models?), but I wouldn't call that sexist. Compared to the level of sexism in a lot of other media, I'd almost call the way they portray women in 40k empowering.
Hasbro had absolutely nothing to do with AD&D. Try again.
Are you an idiot? ?? Who bought it from wizards of the sword coast? ??? & trashed it. Blo M.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AD&D was started by TSR. then owned by Wizards of the Sword Coast. Which in turn sold it to Hasbro who then cranked out multiple editions diluting and ruining a great system. I.e. secondedition.AD&D. A town called mulus. Needs to tske a history lesson. Or at least keep quiet about what he or she is ignorant about.
WotC bought DnD after TSR ran it into the ground through bad management. They released some campaign books which were well liked by fans but not that commercially successful. They then began plans on 3rd edition which many, many players love and which Paizo, using the name Pathfinder, has turned into one of the most successful RPG rulesets on the market.
WotC were bought by Hasbro in 1999. They did not sell DnD to Hasbro. Hasbro also had no impact on 3rd Edition DnD as it had already been in development for at least 2 years before they bought WotC and to change the system would have pushed the release back from its 2000 release.
So I think it is you who actually needs the history lesson.
The thought of the 40K IP being subjected to the scrutiny of the marketing firm of a mainstream name like Hasbro is too awful to consider. There is no way it would survive in its current form.
Daston wrote: I don't want another generic scifi game with american action heroes running around shouting 'get some get some.'
This.
40K's IP rights aren't going to go cheap - ever - and any company that spent the money on it would want to recoup their investment quickly - and that means 'broadening the appeal' of the IP, which would turn 40K into a parody of itself.
GW is a public company, and has already been 'sold'. Buy up the shares and you are in control. There is no premium for the IP per se, just a price at which the current owners will sell their shares. So what the OP is actually asking is "do you wish that Hasbro would acquire control of GW". My answer is no.
The thought of the 40K IP being subjected to the scrutiny of the marketing firm of a mainstream name like Hasbro is too awful to consider. There is no way it would survive in its current form.
Daston wrote: I don't want another generic scifi game with american action heroes running around shouting 'get some get some.'
This.
40K's IP rights aren't going to go cheap - ever - and any company that spent the money on it would want to recoup their investment quickly - and that means 'broadening the appeal' of the IP, which would turn 40K into a parody of itself.
GW has already turned 40k into a parody of itself. And it only took them a mere 6 years to go from 4e's high to the complete clusterfeth of idiocy it is now.
I could poo on my keyboard and come out with a superior product than what GW's brain damaged neanderthals on it's present design team can manage.
Kain wrote: 40k has huge amounts of casual sexism and racism with virtually no one of importance being a person of colour or having dual X chromosomes who isn't heavily sexualized.
A fantasy world that doesn't depict other races can't be considered racist, really. I think they consciously decided to have the Imperium of 40k emulate Medieval European society, in the sense that most people look European and the society resembles something European. There weren't many black or Asian folks living in Medieval Europe, so there aren't many minorities living in the Imperium. This isn't racist- I'd call it a loose emulation of history, overexaggerated and put in a sci-fi-format.
And women are hardly oversexualized in 40k- look at female inquisitors, the Sisters of Battle, etc. They might be a little under-represented (like where are the female IG models?), but I wouldn't call that sexist. Compared to the level of sexism in a lot of other media, I'd almost call the way they portray women in 40k empowering.
You see. the social justice warrior in me despises the excuse of "medieval europe with the serial numbers filed off, therefore no minorities." It's why I loathed Star Wars' bad habit of "only black/asian man in the galaxy" and I won't let it stand in 40k. The fact that minorities in 40k are essentially reduced to token characters who are often theme park versions of who they represent (hello Atillans and White Scars) is not something to celebrate or be allowed to stand without protest.
As for sexism: Boobplate is dumb, look at Samus Aran's power suit for armor that is feminine while not being sexualized. Obviously Samus' armor isn't very gothic, but it's a step in the right direction (the Zero suit though I loathe with a passion). And count for me the number of women in 40k who matter. Now count all the men and agendered entities. That's not something to be proud of.
If I'm not wrong, they're supposed to be a parody of white people trying to act black. Wiggers.
It should be made more clear though.
Dark of the Moon fixed that by nixing them altogether, though they were originally to be killed off by Sentinel.
Parody or not, they weren't funny, they were just some of the worst bits of casual racism to ever make it to the Silver Screen in recent years.
Kain wrote: 40k has huge amounts of casual sexism and racism with virtually no one of importance being a person of colour or having dual X chromosomes who isn't heavily sexualized.
I don't know that many female characters in 40k who are sexualized. If you mean the models, then sure Daemonettes where pretty sexualized back in the day and Lelith wears a thong for no good reason and Repentia need a redesign that ditches the hoods (they're supposed to be dressed in rags made from their old robes, not dressed like they're going to a masquerade party on a really low budget), but outside of that the setting has women dressed in a LOT more clothing than most other settings, puts them in every sort of position imaginable (outside of Orks who are asexual, Space Marines, Knights (unless you ignore stupid fluff), and Daemons who don't have sexes as they're not even humanoid normally (currents of raw emotion and energy given form). You'll note I don't mention Nids because they're either asexual or female (Nord Queens who are largely in charge of their parts of the Hive Fleet and only answer to the Hive Mind as a whole, and Necrons have female characters and can easily have more, you just can't tell when everyone starts with the same basic robot skeleton chassis.).
The only "racism" that GW has ever perpetuated was painting most of their models caucasian. They don't have the Salamanders running around sounding like parodies of rap starts, or the White Scars looking like a generic Asian stereotype for laughs.
Now are there things GW could do to improve things? Sure. More colors other than "white, really white, slightly tanned and so black that it describes the color instead of the race" for paint schemes (and then put out tutorials to teach the same), female models options mixed into the Guard armies, put some pants on Lelith, and redesign the Repentia to look more fanatical and less BDSM-y and we're pretty much there.
On the other hand you throw Michael Bay into the mix and Megan Fox will be a poorly dressed IG Officer who bends over to show off her thong all the time (and has to be saved by her Space Marine love interest(s)), pop culture references that don't fit, Orks who sound like black stereotypes instead of just sounding like they've run into a wall one too many times head first, and yeah....I just can't imagine it'd be GOOD.
I should probably bow out of the thread before my hate of GW gets me in trouble. But I will say that I believe that GW is *ahem*
GW is a collection of the worst scum in gaming, no calling them scum is offensive to actual pond scum which preforms a vital function in the ecosystem. GW's current staff is comprised of idiots, no lower than idiots. They are stupid, incompetent, lazy, greedy, meanspirited, and boorish fools who clearly create their products by slapping their dicks on the keyboard. Their vile lust for money is so great that they would swear allegiance to Hitler in a synagogue and piss on Schindler's grave if it would earn them a few pennies more. I would call them vermin but such would be doing vermin a disservice.
Not a single ounce of competence or intelligence has graced the halls of GW in years, as even the lowliest of Bacteria would look upon the gathering of unseemly moneygrubbers there and realize that their presence would profane their existences. Almost everything GW has done since Escalation has been a monument to the depthless bounds of human stupidity. Actually scratch that, that would imply that the blobs of meat in GW are human, and I would rather not associate our species with such organisms as they. Were the GW design staff to die tomorrow, I would salt and exorcise their graves so that no demons of stupidity could spread from their surely tainted corpses.
Honestly, while you can claim many things about the devs calling the devs themselves "greedy" or "mean spiritied" doesn't seem right. The devs don't make money directly on their work, they only get paid a wage. Likewise, I've never seen, nor heard of anything they've done that has specifically felt "mean spirited". "Misguided" or "lazy" perhaps but not "mean spirited".
I honestly don't think the dev team has ill intent, I feel what they have is some really screwed up design goals passed to them from management.
With Hasbro being American, and myself being British, there's not much I know about it, but, as far as I can gather, Hasbro is a toy company, not a miniatures company. I know you can say that minis are sort of like toys, but I'm on about Lego and Transformers and fluffly toys, things that are undeniably different to miniatures.
Most of the complaints I see about GW are to do with bad rules etc, not about their models, so I think that if Hasbro would simply turn the company into more of a "toy company". They'd give even less thought to the rules, possibly even simplify them ridiculously to a "chess-like" level, and just concentrate on selling toys. It'd be terrible.
Yes, perhaps prices would be better, and we'd get things like reward cards, offers and better customer service, but GW is fundamentally a wargames company, and I think Hasbro would just ruin that.
Hasbro also own Wizards Of The Coast, and so, by extension, D+D and Magic.
Their MO seems to be to allow their sub divisions to run themselves, as long as they're doing so successfully. A strong argument against them acquiring GW is that they seem to go after companies that aren't in need of a lot of fixing, and therefore don't need extensive knowledge of how to operate in a particular niche, not some thing that seems to fit GW right now.
The Shadow wrote: With Hasbro being American, and myself being British, there's not much I know about it, but, as far as I can gather, Hasbro is a toy company, not a miniatures company.
What you might have missed, though, is that Hasbro also owns Wizards of the Coast, which makes Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering. They also own the Avalon Hill brand, under which they sell several boardgames (mostly variations of Axis & Allies) along with a miniatures game (also named Axis & Allies). Of course, I'm sure the vast bulk of Hasbro's yearly sales comes from toys (and their licensing) and not from the WotC and AH divisions.
edit: ninja'd
azreal13 wrote: A strong argument against them acquiring GW is that they seem to go after companies that aren't in need of a lot of fixing, and therefore don't need extensive knowledge of how to operate in a particular niche, not some thing that seems to fit GW right now.
What could happen, though, is that when GW's stock prices fall low enough, Hasbro could still pick them up, move all production to China, and move all design and development under WotC's umbrella (but still maintaining the Games Workshop name like they did with Avalon Hill). And then they can use the Games Workshop brand to push miniatures-based games like they do for boardgames under Avalon Hill.
Kain wrote: I should probably bow out of the thread before my hate of GW gets me in trouble. But I will say that I believe that GW is *ahem*
GW is a collection of the worst scum in gaming, no calling them scum is offensive to actual pond scum which preforms a vital function in the ecosystem. GW's current staff is comprised of idiots, no lower than idiots. They are stupid, incompetent, lazy, greedy, meanspirited, and boorish fools who clearly create their products by slapping their dicks on the keyboard. Their vile lust for money is so great that they would swear allegiance to Hitler in a synagogue and piss on Schindler's grave if it would earn them a few pennies more. I would call them vermin but such would be doing vermin a disservice.
Not a single ounce of competence or intelligence has graced the halls of GW in years, as even the lowliest of Bacteria would look upon the gathering of unseemly moneygrubbers there and realize that their presence would profane their existences. Almost everything GW has done since Escalation has been a monument to the depthless bounds of human stupidity. Actually scratch that, that would imply that the blobs of meat in GW are human, and I would rather not associate our species with such organisms as they. Were the GW design staff to die tomorrow, I would salt and exorcise their graves so that no demons of stupidity could spread from their surely tainted corpses.
Anything is better than GW.
Ladies and gentlemen, you've just had a chance to read one of the finest examples of ultra nerdrage in human history.
I've never even came close to a GW fanboi but really, this is too much and some.
And Escalation, people asked for it for years and they were legion. Sure it's poorly done but still.
Kain wrote: I should probably bow out of the thread before my hate of GW gets me in trouble. But I will say that I believe that GW is *ahem*
GW is a collection of the worst scum in gaming, no calling them scum is offensive to actual pond scum which preforms a vital function in the ecosystem. GW's current staff is comprised of idiots, no lower than idiots. They are stupid, incompetent, lazy, greedy, meanspirited, and boorish fools who clearly create their products by slapping their dicks on the keyboard. Their vile lust for money is so great that they would swear allegiance to Hitler in a synagogue and piss on Schindler's grave if it would earn them a few pennies more. I would call them vermin but such would be doing vermin a disservice.
Not a single ounce of competence or intelligence has graced the halls of GW in years, as even the lowliest of Bacteria would look upon the gathering of unseemly moneygrubbers there and realize that their presence would profane their existences. Almost everything GW has done since Escalation has been a monument to the depthless bounds of human stupidity. Actually scratch that, that would imply that the blobs of meat in GW are human, and I would rather not associate our species with such organisms as they. Were the GW design staff to die tomorrow, I would salt and exorcise their graves so that no demons of stupidity could spread from their surely tainted corpses.
Anything is better than GW.
Ladies and gentlemen, you've just had a chance to read one of the finest examples of ultra nerdrage in human history.
Yeah I haven't bothered contributing to this thread and after a 5 minute read I think I shall bow out before I start. Half of the posts are ridiculous, and most of the rest are demonstrably wrong. Throw in a few ridiculous PC comments that somehow manage to bring racism into the discussion, add a bit of truly absurd flag waving and a little bit of jingoism, and you have a thread that pretty much makes it look as if the majority of hobbyists struggle to read anything at all, let alone a broadsheet newspaper.
For myself, I am on the fence again.... and in these ridiculously black and white discussions, its the only sensible place to be.
btw I'm not some Britain lover but just like any other European country they have times more class when it comes to art. Sorry Americans, just an opinion.
btw I'm not some Britain lover but just like any other European country they have times more class when it comes to art. Sorry Americans, just an opinion.
Alex mollyclonking Ross
John 'crap on a matte board and cover it with water colors' Blanche, as well. (That is a paraphrase of how Mr. Blanche described his own art after he had to change his style to match the faster drawing that GW wanted.)
GW is a company that used to have good artists, and used to have good sculptors. Not a company that has many left of either.
Hasbro had absolutely nothing to do with AD&D. Try again.
Are you an idiot? ?? Who bought it from wizards of the sword coast? ??? & trashed it. Blo M.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AD&D was started by TSR. then owned by Wizards of the Sword Coast. Which in turn sold it to Hasbro who then cranked out multiple editions diluting and ruining a great system. I.e. secondedition.AD&D. A town called mulus. Needs to tske a history lesson. Or at least keep quiet about what he or she is ignorant about.
WotC bought DnD after TSR ran it into the ground through bad management. They released some campaign books which were well liked by fans but not that commercially successful. They then began plans on 3rd edition which many, many players love and which Paizo, using the name Pathfinder, has turned into one of the most successful RPG rulesets on the market.
WotC were bought by Hasbro in 1999. They did not sell DnD to Hasbro. Hasbro also had no impact on 3rd Edition DnD as it had already been in development for at least 2 years before they bought WotC and to change the system would have pushed the release back from its 2000 release.
So I think it is you who actually needs the history lesson.
Hasbro didn't even have much of a direct effect on the failure that was 4e. While the success of the 3.X architecture can be laid firmly to WotC, so to can the marketing fumble that crippled 4e before it was even released. (A hint to game companies out there - insulting and/or otherwise alienating your existing player base is not an effective way to gain a new fan base. Yes, GW... I am talking about you.)
Likewise - TSR was under management that was openly dismissive of the players of the game that they were selling.
Personally I think GW still has good sculptors. There are very few things they put put model wise I look at and find to be legitimately headscratching.
I think they just need to master their CAD system a little more and spend a little longer touching models up before stamping them "done" as it's pretty clear sometimes that a little more work could have gone into some of them.
ClockworkZion wrote: Personally I think GW still has good sculptors. There are very few things they put put model wise I look at and find to be legitimately headscratching.
I think they just need to master their CAD system a little more and spend a little longer touching models up before stamping them "done" as it's pretty clear sometimes that a little more work could have gone into some of them.
I will grant you that the CAD program is the heart of their problem - but that lazy sculptors are what give that heart a body....
A while back I was hired to paint a Warhammer starter set.
The elves were excellent! Well sculpted, and designed with an eye on the limitations of the medium.
The skaven... dear gods, above and below, they were bad. Sculpts worse than the ones that were included with Mordheim, a decade and more agone. Instead of getting better with the plastic medium the skaven had gotten worse.
And do not get me started on that awful giant spider thing that the orcs and goblins get.
Then there is the over use of the cut and paste commands - resulting in skulls, skulls, skulls, and more skulls....
Or just plain dumb choices for models - like having giant eagles pulling a freakin' trailer!
But, yes, I am painting all the sculptors at GW with a single brush - and they really do still have some good sculptors.
But my liking of what they are sculpting (skullpting?) drops, year by year.
And I believe that laziness and the over reliance on the CAD program is at the core of my growing dislike.
So, the only times I paint GW models these days is on commissions - and even those are dropping in number, while Raging Heroes, Mantic, Kromlech, Avatars of War, and a Hell of a lot of Reaper Bones miniatures takes its place.
As an aside - the plastic resin Avatars of War dwarf rangers are awesome - they are exactly what I picture for dwarfs. GW is not the only company that needs to learn - if the plastic resin models by Mantic were as good then I would be a happy Grump.
Plumbumbarum wrote: USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Aside from Jervis (self-described doddering old fool, only kept on for his connection to the old days) and Alan Merrett (out of touch with his customers - see testimony in the CHS case) everyone who was someone is gone.
Rick Priestly, Ian Livingstone, Steve Jackson, Andy Chambers (controversial, btw), Alessio Cavatore (Italian tournament player, was the reason 4th and 5th were suitable for tournament, unlike 6th or soon 7th) , Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer, Adrian Wood, Tuomas Pirinenen and several others who's name escapes me atm. Those were in the first generation studio, it seems there may be some from the current studio who are leaving to do work either on their own or for other companies.
At least Warwick Kinrade is still in charge of ForgeWorld.
Odd that James Hewitt is actually going back to GW. They must have read his Dreadball rules and decided they needed to get a handle on things, so they sent 'round the ninjas!
So yeah, some of the people that created40k and WHFB are still around, oh wait they're not.
Hasbro didn't even have much of a direct effect on the failure that was 4e. While the success of the 3.X architecture can be laid firmly to WotC, so to can the marketing fumble that crippled 4e before it was even released. (A hint to game companies out there - insulting and/or otherwise alienating your existing player base is not an effective way to gain a new fan base. Yes, GW... I am talking about you.)
And even then they were top market share up until their hazardous idea to screw 4E with Essentials to try and nab some pathfinder fans, then it dropped below Pathfinder.
Potential Licenses under GW - Warhammer 40K and Fantasy
Potential Licenses under Hasbro - Warhammer 40K and Fantasy, Star Wars, Mass Effect, Warcraft and Starcraft, Forgotten Realms, Dragon Age to name a few.
Potential Licenses under Hasbro - Warhammer 40K and Fantasy, Star Wars, Mass Effect, Warcraft and Starcraft, Forgotten Realms, Dragon Age to name a few.
That's why I'm all for a Hasbro takeover.
Why would being in a massive company with more licences be better for 40k & Fantasy?
Okay: Keep in mind, this is only my own observations, and I have nothing to back it up....
The only thing GW has that would draw any potential is the strength of their IP (intellectual Property) aka, the Warhammer Fantasy, and Warhammer 40K license. They have increased their profit numbers, and sacrificed long term profitability for short term gain. The only reason this would make sense is to try to pad the numbers to attract a buyer/ keep stockholders happy.
But Even now, GW is starting to weaken their own IP. You don't need to past Storm of Vengeance to see that. That video game is just a plants vs zombie clone with a 40k skin.
So Yes, I would LOVE to see someone buy GW... If only to save them from themselves.
btw I'm not some Britain lover but just like any other European country they have times more class when it comes to art. Sorry Americans, just an opinion.
Alex melon-fething Ross
Sure it's not 100% great in Europe and 0 in USA. More like 97% / 3% or sth heh
Plumbumbarum wrote: USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Aside from Jervis (self-described doddering old fool, only kept on for his connection to the old days) and Alan Merrett (out of touch with his customers - see testimony in the CHS case) everyone who was someone is gone.
Don't forget John Blanche they keep in the basement.
xraytango wrote: Alessio Cavatore (Italian tournament player, was the reason 4th and 5th were suitable for tournament, unlike 6th or soon 7th)
It was before Allesio when GW wanted to make 40k and especialy fantasy a more tourney oriented game, I remember that from some interview with Rick Priestley. No really related though.
xraytango wrote: At least Warwick Kinrade is still in charge of ForgeWorld.
Odd that James Hewitt is actually going back to GW. They must have read his Dreadball rules and decided they needed to get a handle on things, so they sent 'round the ninjas!
So yeah, some of the people that created40k and WHFB are still around, oh wait they're not.
So yeah, exactly some people are still around. Not many but some. Jervis, regardless of your opinion on him, was there in times of Rogue Trader I think, Blanche was. Not to mention the creation of 40k was an ongoing proccess so I'd include 2nd and maybe even 3rd edition when Rick Priestley's straight 2000AD ripoff became something of its own. Yeah guys from the covers are gone and I don't know the middle stuff which is why I wrote some, so yeah.
Hasbro has already trashed the entire Avalon Hill inventory when they took them over. Now they're dragging AH's name through the mud by stamping their name on the Axis and Allies series.
Hasbro would turn WHFB/WH40k into another version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Something has to happen. GW has made 40k it's own parody, and it driving away loyal fans by scores every year. The accelerated releases is a pretty clear indicator of desperation.
But, could Hasbro really do worse? At worse they would just accelerate the inevitable. Which to me is better than this long drawn out painful death that we are going through now.
SickSix wrote: No that I voted, I would like to retract.
Perhaps Bandai would be a better choice?
Something has to happen. GW has made 40k it's own parody, and it driving away loyal fans by scores every year. The accelerated releases is a pretty clear indicator of desperation.
But, could Hasbro really do worse? At worse they would just accelerate the inevitable. Which to me is better than this long drawn out painful death that we are going through now.
Umm... No Bandai would be bad... This is the company that won't release Gundam in the US anymore because they got pissy over fansubs.... and because they're a japanese company they have "international blinders" that a lot of people within Japan has. there are youtube videos by Gaijin Goomba that cover this topic very well.
I think Rick had long since left the development side of things as far as 40k/WFB were concerned, and once it became obvious that all of the historical/specialist game stuff had the writing on the wall there wasn't really anything left to do at GW.
But, I think it's important to remember the guy who was the main actor behind what has since become the biggest sci-fi wargame in the world, and perhaps think that you should be at least a little bit respectful?
I think Rick had long since left the development side of things as far as 40k/WFB were concerned, and once it became obvious that all of the historical/specialist game stuff had the writing on the wall there wasn't really anything left to do at GW.
But, I think it's important to remember the guy who was the main actor behind what has since become the biggest sci-fi wargame in the world, and perhaps think that you should be at least a little bit respectful?
I didn't mean him disrespect, he seems like a nice guy from interviews etc and though he did shamelessly rip off 2000AD for Rogue Trader, he openly admitted that (ofc with euphemisms like that a lot of it "slipped"" or sth like that afair ), he was working on Judge Dredd game just before RT I think.
It was good that he left imo because we could still have Space Marines with mohawks and earring or sth equally silly, I might be wrong on this though as far as responsibility for the in your face punkish direction went. It's still there somewhere but subtlier and with a better inside joke imo.
btw I'd also like to point out that I mean no disrespect to Americans with my comments about art etc, I just think 40k does not fit your current sensibilities or sth, it's kind of hardto put into words heh. If it was Lovecraft not King/ Masterton era then maybe but not now imo. I'm sure many USA based members of the forum could handle it right but you are not the companies that could buy GW now ie Hasbro.
This is kind of funny though, you lecture me on respect after a post like this:
Plumbumbarum wrote:Good riddance btw.
then why don't you start with posts like
Kain wrote: I should probably bow out of the thread before my hate of GW gets me in trouble. But I will say that I believe that GW is *ahem*
GW is a collection of the worst scum in gaming, no calling them scum is offensive to actual pond scum which preforms a vital function in the ecosystem. GW's current staff is comprised of idiots, no lower than idiots. They are stupid, incompetent, lazy, greedy, meanspirited, and boorish fools who clearly create their products by slapping their dicks on the keyboard. Their vile lust for money is so great that they would swear allegiance to Hitler in a synagogue and piss on Schindler's grave if it would earn them a few pennies more. I would call them vermin but such would be doing vermin a disservice.
Not a single ounce of competence or intelligence has graced the halls of GW in years, as even the lowliest of Bacteria would look upon the gathering of unseemly moneygrubbers there and realize that their presence would profane their existences. Almost everything GW has done since Escalation has been a monument to the depthless bounds of human stupidity. Actually scratch that, that would imply that the blobs of meat in GW are human, and I would rather not associate our species with such organisms as they. Were the GW design staff to die tomorrow, I would salt and exorcise their graves so that no demons of stupidity could spread from their surely tainted corpses.
Anything is better than GW.
or
xraytango wrote: Aside from Jervis (self-described doddering old fool, only kept on for his connection to the old days)
I understand Mat Ward is not Rick Priestley maybe but man that seems a bit, I don't know, unfair, to start fighting for respect at the point in the thread you chose heh.
Hasbro didn't even have much of a direct effect on the failure that was 4e. While the success of the 3.X architecture can be laid firmly to WotC, so to can the marketing fumble that crippled 4e before it was even released. (A hint to game companies out there - insulting and/or otherwise alienating your existing player base is not an effective way to gain a new fan base. Yes, GW... I am talking about you.)
And even then they were top market share up until their hazardous idea to screw 4E with Essentials to try and nab some pathfinder fans, then it dropped below Pathfinder.
Depends on which source you listen to, and where you are doing your listening - locally Pathfinder beat 4e within a year, for actual sales, well before Essentials ever appeared.
A bit of a digression follows, in a Spoiler bracket, because it is about D&D, not GW.
Spoiler:
The numbers are skewed to begin with - because the bookstores expected 4e to be a big seller they bought whole cases of the core books - three of each in the case of our local Border's.
The real number is the initial sales minus the returns.
And even on the initial release 4e's sales to returns ratio was anything but stellar.
At first I thought that it was simply that my area has a much more discerning RPG community, but then the numbers kept tilting toward Pathfinder.
But what killed 4e for the local bookstores was returns - WotC wants hardcovers returned in resellable condition.
And most of the very first shipment of 4e was returned, unsold. Two out of three cases, for each title.
I think that Essentials happened because WotC saw the tilting battlefield so they went for a lower entry point and also tried to address the problem that the book sellers described - the above mentioned returns.
There are folks (myself included) that expected that the big Gen Con announcement that got cancelled, before the last ditch effort that was Essentials, was that 4e was being cancelled and that 5e was in the works.
Essentials happened because of the returns. Paperbacks, including Essentials, are not returned, they are stripped, and only the covers sent back - the rest of the book being destroyed.
When the Essentials books and red boxes didn't sell the bookstores... destroyed them. Including most of the beginner boxes - and my friend at Border's didn't even get a chance to salvage the dice from the boxes.
I am afraid that 4e was a mistake from early in its run.
Pathfinder, by contrast, had only light sales at first - Border' getting two of the Core Rulebook. Not two cases... two books.)
Which sold the first day.
So Border's bought two more.
Which sold as soon as they were on the shelf.
Rinse and repeat.
The bookstore never getting as many copies of the book at a time as the initial release of 4e - but selling through Pathfinder on a regular basis, with no returns.
And even getting them just one or two copies at a time... Pathfinder outstripped the sales of 4e.
This is what bookstores like to see - a constant flow.
I could go on, and have (at length) on other forums, but it was returns more than anything else that killed 4e for the bookstores.
I honestly thought that Essentials was a good idea - a low entry point and strippable books.
But the only things that sold well were the boxed sets of tiles for building encounter areas. (Which sold amazingly well - and likely outsold even Pathfinder. But then... I think that a lot of those tiles were being used for Pathfinder....)
Between a fumbled Profession [Marketing] roll and the returns... 4e just did not do as well as 3.5.
Sadly, Pathfinder is not doing as well as 3.5, either - WotC tried to grab all the marketshare, but instead they split the market.
The indirect way that Hasbro was involved with 4e... was a change in corporate policy, with games and toys that make less than a specified amount were going to be 'marginalized'. 3.5 was well below that specified amount... so, WotC panicked and released 4e, doing as much as they could to kill third party sales in the process - - because while WotC's share of D&D/D20/OGL was below that specified amount, the D&D/D20/OGL market as a whole was well above that amount.
WotC wanted it all - they got greedy, and then they got stupid. So they deliberately designed 4e to not be compatible with the OGL, changing the definition of terms, changing the way skills and hit points work (specifically in regards to healing), and telling folks not to bother updating their settings or their characters - to just start over.
And the GSL... was a millstone intended to be tied around the necks of the third party publishers, so that they might drown.
But first WotC tied that millstone around their own necks - because the original WotC folks, the ones that had founded the company, had deliberately worded the OGL in such a way that it was irrevocable.
Because they realized that sooner or later some idiot would try such shenanigans.
So, Pathfinder happened - more because of WotC's own mistakes than because Paizo even wanted to create a new game. (Look up just how much WotC dicked around with the license for 4e... Paizo had a choice between not releasing any material for a year or creating a D20 compatible game.
The result was Pathfinder - a game that I like better than 3.5, and a heck of a lot better than 4e.
Sorry about the diatribe - but at least I have hidden it.
Hasbro... has its own problems, as does WotC - but at least WotC does show a willingness to learn from past mistakes.
A willingness that GW has not demonstrated.
The Auld Grump - the worst part is that that diatribe was the simplified and abridged version....
*EDIT* An important clarification - aside from Pathfinder - 4e blew the doors off of all the competition.
Pathfinder can be viewed as D&D 3.75... so WotC lost only against the continuation of their own, discarded, product.
Yes - discarded, not merely discontinued. There was no reason that WotC could not have kept 3.5 and 4e (under a different title, perhaps) running in parallel.
Because they were worried that 3.5 and 4e (by whatever title) would split the market, WotC... split the market.
This is kind of funny though, you lecture me on respect after a post like this:
Plumbumbarum wrote:Good riddance btw.
then why don't you start with posts like
Kain wrote: I should probably bow out of the thread before my hate of GW gets me in trouble. But I will say that I believe that GW is *ahem*
GW is a collection of the worst scum in gaming, no calling them scum is offensive to actual pond scum which preforms a vital function in the ecosystem... *snip*
Because I stopped reading that post after the first line
I've got a lot of time for Jervis Johnson. The Specialist Games range lasted for years longer than was originally planned (he apparently offered to take responsibility for it completely), when the upper management wanted to remove it and the whole range from the site completely.
The biggest thing that I approve of Hasbro for, they not only have shown that they have no problem working with their audience to make things better. But that they can go into a new thing, feth it up, then make it better than it ever was. I would be willing to put money down that the first rule book from and first codexes will be crap. Not even going to lie. But Hasbro will have no problem with fixing them (regardless if they give it to WOTC or keep it separate). So unlike GW ignoring broke gak, and then trying to fix it by making more broke gak, Hasbro will just say "wait, you mean that doesn't work or people are abusing that? Ok, well we'll fix it"
on top of that, first thing Hasbro is going to do is follow GW supposed target audience. Teens. Addict them while they are young. But unlike GW, Hasbro will know that means you need to drop the price of books and models as much as possible while still making a profit. Prices will hold for a bit, then drop exponentially then slowly rise till they get to the maximum effeciency (the point where the higher price point isn't driving off so many customers as to upset their return customers too much as well as keep people from being willing to be first time buyers)
what does this mean for us? People like my Ork friend will have less of a problem putting new models in his army should he so choose (he has plenty of models from the 80's)
or my other friend who buys about 2000 point of one army near beginning of year, another 2000 of same army halfway, builds and paints them all. Then when he starts the next one sells the old one. He'll build bigger armies (or save more money to go towards hiring pro painters.)
or people like me, who work 2+ jobs but have bills and is semi-new (to complete my army it'd cost half of what the engagement ring I'm looking at for BF costs. That's most a months salary to get this army in shape). So my army is almost all 2nd owner (lucky enough to get second and not 3rd or 4th) who really just wants to finish fleshing out this army so he can join in the campaign all his friends are starting next month.
End game, at first Hasbro will suck with it, then assuming people prepare for this and accept it is going to happen and so are determined to stick with 40k but let hasbro know that what they did was bad and it should be like this, they will fix it. Even go so far as to retract fluff (I run GK but I'm begging them to fix our fluff, especially Draigo). Hasbro understands that the consumer is judge jury and prosecution (something we GKs know a little about) and their game designers are a pretty week defense.
So we the gamers will decide what kind of universe we want, and the game designers will give it color. They decide to paint Smurf blue over here and we say "hold up jack, now that don't make no sense. what business do them smurfs got goin' up and taken a dump on wolf lawn?", Hasbro will say "oh really? Ok guys. I guess that never happened.... (epic voice) STRIKE IT FROM THE RECORD!!!!"
Why would being in a massive company with more licences be better for 40k & Fantasy?
Tbh if GW detail plastic Mass effect mini's came out, I generally wouldn't need 40k as much. I am of course thinking more in line with Specialist games here btw.. Mass Effect for example doesn't need a full tabletop game on a 40K level.. but a tightly written skirmish set with a number of warbands to pick from would be a very enticing alternative to small 40K games as a rival to Infinity/Warmachine.
Why would being in a massive company with more licences be better for 40k & Fantasy?
Tbh if GW detail plastic Mass effect mini's came out, I generally wouldn't need 40k as much. I am of course thinking more in line with Specialist games here btw.. Mass Effect for example doesn't need a full tabletop game on a 40K level.. but a tightly written skirmish set with a number of warbands to pick from would be a very enticing alternative to small 40K games as a rival to Infinity/Warmachine.
Infinity would actually work for ME really well if there where models for it and someone could squeeze in rules for psionics.
That being said I do think we would get more competitive support which would be nice. However I don't think that the problems were facing would be fixed such as unbalanced armies and price of the game.
I want Hasbro to buy GW because maybe, just maybe, there would be a snowball's chance in hell that a GI JOE miniature game might be produced. The long odds on that occurring alone would make me happy with whatever Hasbro did to GW's properties.
Zad Fnark wrote: Hasbro would turn WHFB/WH40k into another version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Doubtful. Now if we were talking about Playmates...
Hasbro didn't even have much of a direct effect on the failure that was 4e. While the success of the 3.X architecture can be laid firmly to WotC, so to can the marketing fumble that crippled 4e before it was even released. (A hint to game companies out there - insulting and/or otherwise alienating your existing player base is not an effective way to gain a new fan base. Yes, GW... I am talking about you.)
And even then they were top market share up until their hazardous idea to screw 4E with Essentials to try and nab some pathfinder fans, then it dropped below Pathfinder.
Depends on which source you listen to, and where you are doing your listening - locally Pathfinder beat 4e within a year, for actual sales, well before Essentials ever appeared.
A bit of a digression follows, in a Spoiler bracket, because it is about D&D, not GW.
Spoiler:
The numbers are skewed to begin with - because the bookstores expected 4e to be a big seller they bought whole cases of the core books - three of each in the case of our local Border's.
The real number is the initial sales minus the returns.
And even on the initial release 4e's sales to returns ratio was anything but stellar.
At first I thought that it was simply that my area has a much more discerning RPG community, but then the numbers kept tilting toward Pathfinder.
But what killed 4e for the local bookstores was returns - WotC wants hardcovers returned in resellable condition.
And most of the very first shipment of 4e was returned, unsold. Two out of three cases, for each title.
I think that Essentials happened because WotC saw the tilting battlefield so they went for a lower entry point and also tried to address the problem that the book sellers described - the above mentioned returns.
There are folks (myself included) that expected that the big Gen Con announcement that got cancelled, before the last ditch effort that was Essentials, was that 4e was being cancelled and that 5e was in the works.
Essentials happened because of the returns. Paperbacks, including Essentials, are not returned, they are stripped, and only the covers sent back - the rest of the book being destroyed.
When the Essentials books and red boxes didn't sell the bookstores... destroyed them. Including most of the beginner boxes - and my friend at Border's didn't even get a chance to salvage the dice from the boxes.
I am afraid that 4e was a mistake from early in its run.
Pathfinder, by contrast, had only light sales at first - Border' getting two of the Core Rulebook. Not two cases... two books.)
Which sold the first day.
So Border's bought two more.
Which sold as soon as they were on the shelf.
Rinse and repeat.
The bookstore never getting as many copies of the book at a time as the initial release of 4e - but selling through Pathfinder on a regular basis, with no returns.
And even getting them just one or two copies at a time... Pathfinder outstripped the sales of 4e.
This is what bookstores like to see - a constant flow.
I could go on, and have (at length) on other forums, but it was returns more than anything else that killed 4e for the bookstores.
I honestly thought that Essentials was a good idea - a low entry point and strippable books.
But the only things that sold well were the boxed sets of tiles for building encounter areas. (Which sold amazingly well - and likely outsold even Pathfinder. But then... I think that a lot of those tiles were being used for Pathfinder....)
Between a fumbled Profession [Marketing] roll and the returns... 4e just did not do as well as 3.5.
Sadly, Pathfinder is not doing as well as 3.5, either - WotC tried to grab all the marketshare, but instead they split the market.
The indirect way that Hasbro was involved with 4e... was a change in corporate policy, with games and toys that make less than a specified amount were going to be 'marginalized'. 3.5 was well below that specified amount... so, WotC panicked and released 4e, doing as much as they could to kill third party sales in the process - - because while WotC's share of D&D/D20/OGL was below that specified amount, the D&D/D20/OGL market as a whole was well above that amount.
WotC wanted it all - they got greedy, and then they got stupid. So they deliberately designed 4e to not be compatible with the OGL, changing the definition of terms, changing the way skills and hit points work (specifically in regards to healing), and telling folks not to bother updating their settings or their characters - to just start over.
And the GSL... was a millstone intended to be tied around the necks of the third party publishers, so that they might drown.
But first WotC tied that millstone around their own necks - because the original WotC folks, the ones that had founded the company, had deliberately worded the OGL in such a way that it was irrevocable.
Because they realized that sooner or later some idiot would try such shenanigans.
So, Pathfinder happened - more because of WotC's own mistakes than because Paizo even wanted to create a new game. (Look up just how much WotC dicked around with the license for 4e... Paizo had a choice between not releasing any material for a year or creating a D20 compatible game.
The result was Pathfinder - a game that I like better than 3.5, and a heck of a lot better than 4e.
Sorry about the diatribe - but at least I have hidden it.
Hasbro... has its own problems, as does WotC - but at least WotC does show a willingness to learn from past mistakes.
A willingness that GW has not demonstrated.
The Auld Grump - the worst part is that that diatribe was the simplified and abridged version....
*EDIT* An important clarification - aside from Pathfinder - 4e blew the doors off of all the competition.
Pathfinder can be viewed as D&D 3.75... so WotC lost only against the continuation of their own, discarded, product.
Yes - discarded, not merely discontinued. There was no reason that WotC could not have kept 3.5 and 4e (under a different title, perhaps) running in parallel.
Because they were worried that 3.5 and 4e (by whatever title) would split the market, WotC... split the market.
I loved reading this thank you. I liked 4e but Pathfinder just blew it out of the water by staying true to what people knew. 4e was a great 'beginners' tabletop rpg. The ritual system needed fixing and that was it really. The problem was the treatment of the old guard, and that does parallel a bit on what is going on with GW. The old guard is gone, and you got a lot of young 'directionless' people trying to get in on the popularity.
Shame someone hasn't Pathfinderized, Warhammer 40K's 3rd edition (i.e. the best edition.)
In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
Bad idea.
I'm confused, all I ever hear from GW's shareholder reports is ever increasing growth for the stockholders...
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
So what you're saying is nothing would change.
I still figure if Hasboro bought it, they would probably do better, and even if they didn't, I don't think they'd do worse.
I'd prefer to see a management shake-up at the current company, one that would hopefully result in them heading down a better path for the long-term.
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
Bad idea.
I'm confused, all I ever hear from GW's shareholder reports is ever increasing growth for the stockholders...
Exactly, many say things were much better before GW started worrying too much about the stockholders.
RatBot wrote:
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
So what you're saying is nothing would change.
I still figure if Hasboro bought it, they would probably do better, and even if they didn't, I don't think they'd do worse.
I'd prefer to see a management shake-up at the current company, one that would hopefully result in them heading down a better path for the long-term.
In my opinion it would...I'm guessing a Hasbro owned 40K would go in a direction that I wouldn't care for..much more so than even GW which is small by comparison. GW also has more interest I think in the game than a corporation like Hasbro would. Mind you...it's just my take on things.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Shame someone hasn't Pathfinderized, Warhammer 40K's 3rd edition (i.e. the best edition.)
My own favorite as well.
I would have been much happier if GW had just refined 3e, rather than changing things for the sake of change.
My choking point for 4th ed. WH40K was the change to blast weapons - putting back the damned stupid deviation rules that I had hated in 2nd. ed..... WH40K's weapons are just too unreliable to have verisimilitude, at least for me.
And the more I play Kings of War... the less enamored that I become with blast templates to begin with. (Playing a lot of KoW these days....)
Zad Fnark wrote: Hasbro has already trashed the entire Avalon Hill inventory when they took them over. Now they're dragging AH's name through the mud by stamping their name on the Axis and Allies series.
Hasbro would turn WHFB/WH40k into another version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
ZF-
As an avid Avalon Hill board gamer growing up I can remember when Hasbro bought AH, my favorite game company. Someone on the internet lamenting about the time it happened and what it meant for the future of board wargaming years later said something like "our favorite wargaming company was bought out by a company that thinks Mr Potato Head is a hot item." Even though the potato probably is it did not end well for all those great titles that disappeared.
Yes, Lucas pretty much forced Hasbro to shut down some Star Wars sites, but for things that are Hasbro's IP, they're very cooperative with the fansites.
Oh you people....thinking Hasbro will do anything but gut the model line down to the best selling races and turn the game into a shadow of what it is/was. You make me laugh....have fun with your unrealistic whine fest!
I loved reading this thank you. I liked 4e but Pathfinder just blew it out of the water by staying true to what people knew. 4e was a great 'beginners' tabletop rpg. The ritual system needed fixing and that was it really. The problem was the treatment of the old guard, and that does parallel a bit on what is going on with GW. The old guard is gone, and you got a lot of young 'directionless' people trying to get in on the popularity.
Which Old Guard, the ones that still play AD&D, 1st ed, 2st ed, or 3ed? Or the ones that still play
The thing about 40k is that there's usually one group of old guard, rather then splintered factions who stick with one version of the game because that was 'best', its old faction hasn't really splintered so hard you have different names for those of different faction users.
Which is why the DnD 5E is trying to grab pieces from all of them and have a modifiable system for it. Of course it's really unfriendly towards 4E players who actually enjoyed the game and seems to have cut from it the most in all things, so they are continuing their treatment by treating 4E as the one's to cut around now.
Pathfinder I found was simply 3.7 as said, didn't really fix the issue of Magic > everything, one drop frontloaded classes, and being a munchkin optimizers wet dream.
I would have been much happier if GW had just refined 3e, rather than changing things for the sake of change.
That's all that they have done though. 40k is basically the same game now as it was in 99(?), the rules aren't the same of course but they aren't all that different and the overall feel of the game has remained approximately the same. Of course he prime driver behind rules 'updates' is to keep the game 'fresh' and to make people buy a new rulebook every few years rather than actually improve the game.
In my view GW should either create a ruleset completely from scratch or they should go back to 2nd ed and use that as a base. Neither of these things will ever happen though.
I loved reading this thank you. I liked 4e but Pathfinder just blew it out of the water by staying true to what people knew. 4e was a great 'beginners' tabletop rpg. The ritual system needed fixing and that was it really. The problem was the treatment of the old guard, and that does parallel a bit on what is going on with GW. The old guard is gone, and you got a lot of young 'directionless' people trying to get in on the popularity.
Which Old Guard, the ones that still play AD&D, 1st ed, 2st ed, or 3ed? Or the ones that still play
The thing about 40k is that there's usually one group of old guard, rather then splintered factions who stick with one version of the game because that was 'best', its old faction hasn't really splintered so hard you have different names for those of different faction users.
Which is why the DnD 5E is trying to grab pieces from all of them and have a modifiable system for it. Of course it's really unfriendly towards 4E players who actually enjoyed the game and seems to have cut from it the most in all things, so they are continuing their treatment by treating 4E as the one's to cut around now.
Pathfinder I found was simply 3.7 as said, didn't really fix the issue of Magic > everything, one drop frontloaded classes, and being a munchkin optimizers wet dream.
You really have not played Pathfinder much, have you? Or even much looked at it?
The over all damage dealer in my campaigns have been the fighters - with the wizard and sorcerer artillery only softening up the target before the infantry and caissons roll in.
Classes are back loaded - with the level 20 cap being the high point. (I would have preferred having the capstone power at around level 15 or so, just so the PCs have a chance to play around with it a bit more.)
Skill ranks are now evenly distributed through all the levels - there is no X4 multiplier for first level.
This is a view that I built up over the entire time of Pathfinder, including the Beta, and running/playing an average of two games a week.
And munchkins have been with us, always. No need to blame 3.X or Pathfinder - there were plenty in beige box D&D.
As for 'The Old Guard' - yes, all of the above. From OD&D to 3.5 - WotC insulted them all in the run up to 4e.
4e - the edition where the publisher decided to tell the players not to bother updating their campaigns and characters, just start over.
Where WotC told people that the way that they were running their games was wrong. (Look up the fairy ring quote and the quote about the Guards At The Gate.)
ALL the previous editions - from AD&D to 3.5, and including Pathfinder, had notes on HOW to convert - 4e just said not to bother.
4e deserved to die, not because of the game itself, but the way that WotC had tried to enforce a single style of play. But the 4e players and fans did not deserve what WotC had done to cripple their game before ever it was released.
The onus is nearly entirely on WotC. (Not Hasbro - WotC. They were hoist by their own petard.)
Uh... no. I, unlike most, dont have any problems with 40k or WHFBs. GW's done a nice job, and its a fun thing to play. I only play friendly games though, no tournaments (Well, I do do some tournaments at my FLGS, but to me they're just friendly games with a reward)
You guys are crazy to think that hasbro would improve things. Look at what they are doing to action figures, they are making 5 point articulation figures. If they got a hold of GW we will end up with rubberized plastic figures cause they are cheap or some other undesireable alternative.
Dax415 wrote: You guys are crazy to think that hasbro would improve things. Look at what they are doing to action figures, they are making 5 point articulation figures.
?
Transformers are more articulate than ever(not counting the gimmick lines and TItan line). Same with Star Wars(seriously, the Black Series is amazing).
In fact, Hasbro's stuff was getting so complex and articulate for a time, parents complained cause their kids were getting frustrated with the toys. The result is they tend to now do a "kids line" for things, too, which is where you're seeing these 5 point articulation figures. In fact, I find it's their competitors who are failing with articulation. The newer Power Ranger lines get less and less articulate every year.
Hasbro's in a really good place with regards to their design teams being able to develop lines for both mainstream toy buyers and collectors.
I'm curious, are there any actual examples of Hasbro buying an IP, dumbing it down, white washing it to make it child friendly when it wasn't before, and then pumping out action figures for it?
I don't follow this sort of stuff but it just seems like half the 'no' votes in this thread are because no one wants to see a space marine action figure but I can't fathom why people would think Hasbro would do that all of a sudden.
Tigramans wrote: I dunno. The only thing I can see in my mind is "My Little Grimdark - Friendship is Heresy".
This kind of thing baffles me. You think Hasbro will dumb things down? Because GW isn't doing that right now? At least Hasbro is competent. Besides GW's greed and bizarre paranoia/spitefulness, I get a huge incompetency vibe from them.
jonolikespie wrote: I'm curious, are there any actual examples of Hasbro buying an IP, dumbing it down, white washing it to make it child friendly when it wasn't before, and then pumping out action figures for it?
I don't follow this sort of stuff but it just seems like half the 'no' votes in this thread are because no one wants to see a space marine action figure but I can't fathom why people would think Hasbro would do that all of a sudden.
Personally, I'd love a Space Marine action figure.
Tigramans wrote: I dunno. The only thing I can see in my mind is "My Little Grimdark - Friendship is Heresy".
This kind of thing baffles me. You think Hasbro will dumb things down? Because GW isn't doing that right now? At least Hasbro is competent. Besides GW's greed and bizarre paranoia/spitefulness, I get a huge incompetency vibe from them.
The really funny part is that while GW are letting the grimdark leak out of 40k MLP has had some really dark stuff considering its about colourful ponies these last few seasons.
Dax415 wrote: You guys are crazy to think that hasbro would improve things. Look at what they are doing to action figures, they are making 5 point articulation figures.
?
Transformers are more articulate than ever(not counting the gimmick lines and TItan line). Same with Star Wars(seriously, the Black Series is amazing).
In fact, Hasbro's stuff was getting so complex and articulate for a time, parents complained cause their kids were getting frustrated with the toys. The result is they tend to now do a "kids line" for things, too, which is where you're seeing these 5 point articulation figures. In fact, I find it's their competitors who are failing with articulation. The newer Power Ranger lines get less and less articulate every year.
Hasbro's in a really good place with regards to their design teams being able to develop lines for both mainstream toy buyers and collectors.
Parents complaining of the articulation is a Hasbro Farce cooked up by their PR department. While hunting down figures for my nephew I cant believe how many times I've heard a kid say I dont want the stiff action figure. Series 1 and 2 are still sitting on the shelves. Those things are not flying off the shelves and are peg warmers. I still stand by what I said about Hasbro, this company is willing to take a step back if there is perceived profit. The likely scenario is they give this acquistion to WOC division of their company. The same section who screwed D&D and a host of other games. That's the track record I"m looking at. If this were a family type game or they wanted to turn this into a card game like MtG, then this is the company to do it.
I would have been much happier if GW had just refined 3e, rather than changing things for the sake of change.
That's all that they have done though. 40k is basically the same game now as it was in 99(?), the rules aren't the same of course but they aren't all that different and the overall feel of the game has remained approximately the same. Of course he prime driver behind rules 'updates' is to keep the game 'fresh' and to make people buy a new rulebook every few years rather than actually improve the game.
In my view GW should either create a ruleset completely from scratch or they should go back to 2nd ed and use that as a base. Neither of these things will ever happen though.
No, 40k and WHFB aren't remotely the same games that they were in the 90's. The basic core mechanics are the same, you are right, but the constantly pile up of unnecessary rules bloat, miniatures bloat, combined with the dumbing down and randomization of every tactical aspect of both games has had the result that both games play like completely different (and worse) versions of their earlier editions.
Parents complaining of the articulation is a Hasbro Farce cooked up by their PR department. While hunting down figures for my nephew I cant believe how many times I've heard a kid say I dont want the stiff action figure. Series 1 and 2 are still sitting on the shelves. Those things are not flying off the shelves and are peg warmers. I still stand by what I said about Hasbro, this company is willing to take a step back if there is perceived profit. The likely scenario is they give this acquistion to WOC division of their company. The same section who screwed D&D and a host of other games. That's the track record I"m looking at. If this were a family type game or they wanted to turn this into a card game like MtG, then this is the company to do it.
You do realize it was WOTC a Hasbro company that bought the burning wreckage that was TSR, and SAVED D&D in the form of 3.0, and put in back on the map with 3.5 right?
Dax415 wrote: The same section who screwed D&D and a host of other games.
You have a really bizarre definition of "screwed" when WOTC is the company that released the entire 3rd/3.5 edition rules under a license that allowed anyone to use them in a for-profit product, without paying any license fees, as long as they credited the D20 system and didn't use any of the D&D fluff. The D&D replacements that everyone loves wouldn't exist at all without WOTC being insanely generous to the D&D community. And yeah, 4th edition was a failed attempt to market to the WoW crowd, but you know what WOTC did about it? They took community feedback and started working on a new edition that gives people what they want to see. Can you imagine GW doing either of those things?
Peregrine wrote: They took community feedback and started working on a new edition that gives people what they want to see. Can you imagine GW doing either of those things?
I remember fondly WOTC gathering customer feedback in the run up to their Star Wars RPG, I think Mel was the name of their Marketing Manager. She solicited feedback via the old SW-RPG mailing list. The feedback was an adamant NOT D20.
So they went with D20.
Mel kept positive and fought to win players over to the new game, which I believe she did.
So WOTC rewarded her by making her redundant with the reason "Star Wars can sell itself, it doesn't need a marketing manager."
Peregrine wrote: They took community feedback and started working on a new edition that gives people what they want to see. Can you imagine GW doing either of those things?
I remember fondly WOTC gathering customer feedback in the run up to their Star Wars RPG, I think Mel was the name of their Marketing Manager. She solicited feedback via the old SW-RPG mailing list. The feedback was an adamant NOT D20.
So they went with D20.
Mel kept positive and fought to win players over to the new game, which I believe she did.
So WOTC rewarded her by making her redundant with the reason "Star Wars can sell itself, it doesn't need a marketing manager."
Thanks Wizards, you suck.
I'm still adamant that a Hasbro buyout would be a good thing despite things like this.
Why?
That sounds like an example of Hasbro (and it's subsidiaries) doing a pretty crappy job. But then there are also examples of them doing good thing.
Hasbro is neither a perfect company, nor a company incapable of doing anything right. They are just an average company.
In my eyes GW are not an average company, GW have done quite a bit in the last couple of years that, frankly, either severely disappointed me off or made me scratch my head and wonder why?
Hasbro have the potential for good and bad. I have given up on actually seeing anything good from GW.
Dax415 wrote: The same section who screwed D&D and a host of other games.
You have a really bizarre definition of "screwed" when WOTC is the company that released the entire 3rd/3.5 edition rules under a license that allowed anyone to use them in a for-profit product, without paying any license fees, as long as they credited the D20 system and didn't use any of the D&D fluff. The D&D replacements that everyone loves wouldn't exist at all without WOTC being insanely generous to the D&D community. And yeah, 4th edition was a failed attempt to market to the WoW crowd, but you know what WOTC did about it? They took community feedback and started working on a new edition that gives people what they want to see. Can you imagine GW doing either of those things?
5th edition is cutting 4E's community feedback and generally adding in far more to please the 3.XE crowd at the cost, to the point of taking their sides in the 'edition wars' on the forum while silencing 4E players
I wouldn't say they are doing perfect on that either, but it's still better then GW's I suppose...
Dax415 wrote: The same section who screwed D&D and a host of other games.
You have a really bizarre definition of "screwed" when WOTC is the company that released the entire 3rd/3.5 edition rules under a license that allowed anyone to use them in a for-profit product, without paying any license fees, as long as they credited the D20 system and didn't use any of the D&D fluff. The D&D replacements that everyone loves wouldn't exist at all without WOTC being insanely generous to the D&D community. And yeah, 4th edition was a failed attempt to market to the WoW crowd, but you know what WOTC did about it? They took community feedback and started working on a new edition that gives people what they want to see. Can you imagine GW doing either of those things?
5th edition is cutting 4E's community feedback and generally adding in far more to please the 3.XE crowd at the cost, to the point of taking their sides in the 'edition wars' on the forum while silencing 4E players
I wouldn't say they are doing perfect on that either, but it's still better then GW's I suppose...
I have seen some of that 'feedback'... some of those folks really did need to be cut off.
When a 4e fan has been articulate and well spoken their concerns have been addressed - sometimes the answer has been 'no', but more often it has been 'not in the initial release'. WotC intends to release a more tactical module for the system, but is first concentrating on regaining lost ground.
I do not consider 4e to be a failed game, I consider it to have suffered from a fumbled Profession [Marketing] roll....
5e... has a lot of ground to recapture before WotC tries to regain any lost 4e players - but the 4e players are on the lighter side of the teeter totter. There are fewer of them, to put things simply.
GW is kind of in the same position with the latest edition of 40K - the most recent edition lost them marketshare - it is very early for a new edition, but the previous edition hurt them.
It does not much matter to me - I intend to skip the new versions of both 40K and D&D.
I think the main question will be whether the company that buys GW will look at Warhammer etc. as a competitive game or a casual experience.
If they go for the competitive angle they're going to simplify the game to the bone, adjust the prices, and focus on trying to grow the game through regional, national, and international tournaments and functions while allowing the distribution be through independent retailers.
If they go for the casual experience as the focus they're going to try for deep flavorful fluffy but elegant rules and produce the quality product and sell it.
Games Workshop has a name people recognize. They have IP which is well liked. They have loads of existing product. You don't buy GW to make a quick buck, because you won't. Its a long term commitment that if handled correctly could produce profits.
They'd definitely want to focus on a global business model. What you have to do is make the product in the UK and focus sales in the United States, European Union, and East Asia. Not the East Midlands. That's 2 Billion people between what is effectively 3 countries, two of which know English.
As I believe has been mentioned, Hasbro have been pretty good at pissing of its fanbase.
I'm on Seibertron.com, and it's quite a similar story to Dakka with people left and right crying about what an awful company Hasbro is and how much they suck and how they're going to go third-party only. Reasons of course vary, although ATM it's about the simplified engineering on the newer Transformers- which has been quite piss-poor in places.
So no, I don't think Hasbro would be a good choice. They'd be just as likely to run 40K into the ground (moreso in fact) and to be honest I don't think they'd care. Why bother marketing the ultra-violent British collectible wargame when they can make loads of money by selling PVC horses to manchildren?
As I've said before, Bandai would be the perfect choice. They're the 3rd biggest toy/model manufacturer in the world, they actually make models already, and they get stuff done, and done well. Case in point, their Gundam models. Fully articulated, highly detailed, mechanically accurate renditions of the Mobile Suits from the animes, with a fully detailed inner frame and even opening cockpits.Imagine Bandai releasing a 1/100 fully articulated, fully detailed Reaver Titan. Given their incredible proficiency with model engineering, I reckon they'd be able to turn out some absolutely astounding miniatures.
Another thing worth mentioning is that Bandai never destroys their molds, and still reissue their older kits. The Unit 01 TV ver LM-HG model, for example, is from 1997- over 14 years old now. It's still produced and reissued, and on top of that, even today it's considered a superb model. If they could get the molds I wouldn't doubt Bandai would reissue some of the older models that GW made.
As for the rules, Bandai has connections with some of the biggest companies in the world. It wouldn't surprise me if they could hire out a skilled set of rules-writers to do the ruleset.
Finally, Bandai are businessmen without equal. They know how to manage a brand and keep the fanbase happy. I can guarantee that they'd know how to treat GW's IP well.
Of course it is a Japanese company so whether or not they'd be interested in buying GW is up for debate. Admittedly the only reason they stopped selling Gunpla in the US was because of heavily declining sales (Thanks G Gundam and your terrible designs!) so there is hope.
Well, the issue with that would be that you'd have a model company buying a model company.
GW needs to be bought by someone who'll fix the rules. There's nothing wrong the physical product, its absolutely fantastic. There is a problem with the game side of the business.
Whoever buys GW needs to fix the game, not the models. They don't need to touch the model line at all.
Bandai is purely a model company, like GW claims themselves to be. Hasbro on the other hand is a toy/game company, and adept at selling games that use toys.
Squigsquasher wrote: Why bother marketing the ultra-violent British collectible wargame when they can make loads of money by selling PVC horses to manchildren?
Because, unlike GW, they know that these are not mutually exclusive concepts. They're capable of marketing both product lines, the only reason to drop 40k would be if it's not a profitable business anymore. And in that case why buy the IP in the first place?
the problem with GW is often described as being that of "suits on the exec board forcibng bad decisions that hurt the game long term"
this pretty much describes WOTC's handling of D&D.
even the much loved third edition of D&D was FAR from perfect. I'm not talking about flaws in the rules eaither, but WOTC persued a policy of releasing new rules books on a monthly basis, that slowly power creeped up.
I loved third edition, but Haesbro made some decisions that where perhaps questionable.
ultimatly the biggest mistake they made was 4th edition. where they destroyed their existing fanbase to chase one that doesn't exist (all the people who play MMOs and would proably play paper and pen... did)
it didn't help that they where making the rules essentially to try to sell their CMG. whose market COMPLETLY COLLAPSED right before 4th edition launched
jonolikespie wrote: The really funny part is that while GW are letting the grimdark leak out of 40k MLP has had some really dark stuff considering its about colourful ponies these last few seasons.
Last few seasons ? U sure ?
Spoiler:
S1E04 : Applejack's burnout.
S1E08 : First Applejack/Rarity War.
S1E09 : First occurence of racial segregation.
S1E10 : Ponyville is destroyed by Star Trek critters.
S1E12 : First Applejack/RainbowDash open conflict.
S1E17 : Fluttershy stare officially scares me.
S1E21 : More racial segregation. After the african-americans, the natives... S1E25 : Pinkie Pie going BASHIT INSANE. S2E1/2 : Q's in da place ! Anarchy rules, the princess drools. S2E3 : Damn, even the main protagonist is crazier than Gollum...
S2E10 : Spike's turn to destroy everything.
S2E11 : Clergy/Nobility/Third State conflicts. What a wonderful world !
S2E19 : That mean Fluttershy b**ch...
S2E20 : More Twilight's nevroses, and some epic mindfrak at the end...
S2E25/26 : Dopplegangers everywhere, assault on world leaders, kidnapping, mind control, interdimensional portals, WWIII, guerilla fighting and party cannons of mass destruction.
That was just the two very first seasons... S4 has some insane moments too, especially in the opening and the finale.
Spoiler:
Celestia going down and banishing her sister... All Twilight's books, all her memories, going POOF in a big Kamehameha...
even the much loved third edition of D&D was FAR from perfect. I'm not talking about flaws in the rules eaither, but WOTC persued a policy of releasing new rules books on a monthly basis, that slowly power creeped up.
The problem is that the power creep was already in the first book, you could make a broken CoDzilla or Wizard alone with the first core book with core spells, as Monte Cook usually does when he gets his hands on helping.
I have seen some of that 'feedback'... some of those folks really did need to be cut off.
Considering some of the other sides arguments, it's kinda hard to swallow when they enjoy cuffing 4th as they do.
When a 4e fan has been articulate and well spoken their concerns have been addressed - sometimes the answer has been 'no', but more often it has been 'not in the initial release'. WotC intends to release a more tactical module for the system, but is first concentrating on regaining lost ground.
The problem with that is, that's not really going to help the system.
Generally first book wins, expansions and all that usually get pushed out but are usually generally arbitrary. Whatever is in the first core is going to become the standard regardless of 'modules', while Hasbro isn't as bad as GW in this regard, you'll see pretty much no updates outside of those to core, not any 'modules'.
5e... has a lot of ground to recapture before WotC tries to regain any lost 4e players - but the 4e players are on the lighter side of the teeter totter. There are fewer of them, to put things simply.
Considering that the alternative is hoping you pull players from pathfinder, spitting on the current fanbase again after essentials to try and nab that market isn't going to help them at all.
jonolikespie wrote: The really funny part is that while GW are letting the grimdark leak out of 40k MLP has had some really dark stuff considering its about colourful ponies these last few seasons.
Last few seasons ? U sure ?
Spoiler:
S1E04 : Applejack's burnout.
S1E08 : First Applejack/Rarity War.
S1E09 : First occurence of racial segregation.
S1E10 : Ponyville is destroyed by Star Trek critters.
S1E12 : First Applejack/RainbowDash open conflict.
S1E17 : Fluttershy stare officially scares me.
S1E21 : More racial segregation. After the african-americans, the natives... S1E25 : Pinkie Pie going BASHIT INSANE. S2E1/2 : Q's in da place ! Anarchy rules, the princess drools. S2E3 : Damn, even the main protagonist is crazier than Gollum...
S2E10 : Spike's turn to destroy everything.
S2E11 : Clergy/Nobility/Third State conflicts. What a wonderful world !
S2E19 : That mean Fluttershy b**ch...
S2E20 : More Twilight's nevroses, and some epic mindfrak at the end...
S2E25/26 : Dopplegangers everywhere, assault on world leaders, kidnapping, mind control, interdimensional portals, WWIII, guerilla fighting and party cannons of mass destruction.
That was just the two very first seasons... S4 has some insane moments too, especially in the opening and the finale.
Spoiler:
Celestia going down and banishing her sister... All Twilight's books, all her memories, going POOF in a big Kamehameha...
Please don't tell me someone is actually seriously saying that MLP is more grimdark than 40K.
If they are, may I remind them of the Daemonculaba, AKA the sickest of sick fuckery in this or any other universe.
@Grey Templar: I do see your point about Bandai purely being a model company, however as I said they also have a lot of connections and good faith from other companies. Even if they didn't have rules-writing facilities, they'd be able to find someone who did. Also, from what I'm aware, Japanese tabletop games tend to be very tight and well written, although this is all just from anecdotal evidence.
Squigsquasher wrote: Please don't tell me someone is actually seriously saying that MLP is more grimdark than 40K.
Did anybody say that ?
I believe the individual I was quoting was saying just that.
Squigsquasher wrote: If they are, may I remind them of the Daemonculaba, AKA the sickest of sick fuckery in this or any other universe.
It's not grimdark, it's grimderp.
And that's precisely the problem with most 40k authors: sometimes, darkness needs a little bit more than just "let's put skulls everywhere".
>Daemonculaba
>Not grimdark
The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
If that isn't grimdark then I don't know what is.
As for the "Hurr, they put skulls on everything, it's grimderp, durr!" argument, 40K has ALWAYS been fairly grimderp- fairly intentionally so. Since rogue trader its tone could be described as a very 80s OTT black comedy with equal parts of hilariously ludicrous and horrifically disturbing, and everything between the two. That "grimderp" everyone complains about has been there since the days of Rogue Trader- and I have yet to see anyone who doesn't like Rogue Trader. Jokaero? Originally in Rogue Trader. Lord of Skulls/Battles? Originally in Rogue Trader. And both of these things looked a million times dafter in their original 80s pewter incarnations. The only difference is that when brought out from the days of the 80s and given new models with modern technology and decent sculpting, it shows how ridiculous the source material was; but that was intentional because it wasn't supposed to be taken overly seriously. If you'd brought the Lord of Skulls out in the 80s it would probably have been hailed as the most awesome model ever. And that I think is the direction that GW are taking with a lot of their stuff; they're having a throwback to a simpler, funnier time when nothing was taken too seriously and some of the silliest, most over the top ideas came out.
Although to be honest I find it hard to find any claim that 40K is "too grimderp" when the most gloriously grimderp thing of all time, the Orks (who I might add were originally based on British football hooligans I might add) are to this day one of the most beloved inventions in wargaming history- and rightfully so. I mean, do you seriously think they take the setting that seriously with a race like the Orks in it?
TL;DR: Yes, 40K is grimderp, but it has always been grimderp and that's not necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn't stop it from having genuinely nightmarish things in it.
Also, you have forgotten the most important rule. Skulls are like Dakka and spikes; you can never have enough.
The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
That's grim and all, but it's not quite as dark as this (from the official comics):
Squigsquasher wrote: Please don't tell me someone is actually seriously saying that MLP is more grimdark than 40K.
If they are, may I remind them of the Daemonculaba, AKA the sickest of sick fuckery in this or any other universe.
No one was saying MLP is darker than 40k, but my point was that MLP has actually had some (relativity) dark moments and they seem to be increasing as the show goes on and Hasbro aim at slightly older audiences while still keeping it a kids show.
On the other hand 40k has been getting less grimdark recently imo, or perhaps rather they are trying to keep it grimdark but the heroics of their big name heroes are seriously undermining that.
The Daemonculaba example you brought up as a matter of fact comes from (according to 40k lexicanum) a novel published in '04.
On the other hand I just flipped through the 6th ed chaos book from... I want to say late '11 and the first thing that jumped out at me after all the basics about the Horus Heresy and the legions was the little box of fluff about The Scourged, a chapter who's master hated killing innocents on the orders of the Inquisition and prayed to be able to tell when a man lies. Tzeentch granded his wish and they went rouge within days. So apparently there is a band of chaos marines out there who fell because they didn't like killing people or the fact that the Imperium is corrupt (in the non chaos sense)....
Squigsquasher wrote: The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
If that isn't grimdark then I don't know what is.
That sounds like trying too hard. Failing at grimdark and hitting grimderp instead. It sounds like internet fanfic trying to be as grimdark as possible.
The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
If that isn't grimdark then I don't know what is.
Gross, maybe ? Really looks like a failed attempt from an emo teenager that wants to sound cool and edgy but is trying way to hard.
Squigsquasher wrote: As for the "Hurr, they put skulls on everything, it's grimderp, durr!" argument, 40K has ALWAYS been fairly grimderp- fairly intentionally so.
40k is not Rogue Trader. That's why the squats were removed from the universe : good material for RT, too goofy for 40k.
Rogue Trader was like a Monty Python movie. 40k is more like a Michael Bay movie. Either way is ok, but just stick to it, instead of trying to do everything and its opposite.
I find Goomba (from the Super Mario Bros movie) Space Marines that seem to be pretty popular with the fans these days rather goofy. No less so than biker dwarfs anyway.
MWHistorian wrote: It's a sad day for GW when it's compared to My Little Pony. And a sad day for the human race as well.
I'm not eve sure what I mean by that. I just feel an unquenchable feeling of loss.
I think it best if we just don't bring up MLP ever again.
Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
Well.. you are entitled to your opinion regarding that but I don't usually see too many complaints about the backstory and fluff when it comes to 40k. It's one of the main reasons people get immersed into the game honestly.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
Well.. you are entitled to your opinion regarding that but I don't usually see too many complaints about the backstory and fluff when it comes to 40k. It's one of the main reasons people get immersed into the game honestly.
Apart from the majority of BL and HH books stink, and GW hasn't written anything good since the Dark Eldar codex?
That was true maybe 6-10 years ago, but now the background is a joke.
Daba wrote: Apart from the majority of BL and HH books stink, and GW hasn't written anything good since the Dark Eldar codex?
That was true maybe 6-10 years ago, but now the background is a joke.
Is it? It's pretty much the same as it was back then. Maybe you've just been over-saturated with it to the point where you no longer appreciate it?
Over the years I've seen dozens of people with GW themed tattoos walking around. I haven't seen that with any PP games. People really do love the back story..
A Town Called Malus wrote: Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
Well.. you are entitled to your opinion regarding that but I don't usually see too many complaints about the backstory and fluff when it comes to 40k. It's one of the main reasons people get immersed into the game honestly.
But the majority of that fluff was written years ago. Current GW has lost a lot of those creative people and started to take it's own story much too seriously, which has lead to stale and boring characters who lack any real character.
A Town Called Malus wrote: But the majority of that fluff was written years ago. Current GW has lost a lot of those creative people and started to take it's own story much too seriously, which has lead to stale and boring characters who lack any real character.
I liked the new necron stuff personally.. Same with the additions they made to the dark angels and blood angels. Overall, I can see your argument. I do prefer they don't just add fluff for the sake of adding something new though.
IE.. when the grey knights came out, I was blown away by that one story where they covered themselves in the blood of sisters of battle to protect themselves from daemons. That was so dumb.
IMO.. the bar is set high enough at this point that we could end up having a situation like star wars where the new additions cheapen the original product somewhat. episodes 1,2,3 were awful from the story telling perspective and that was with the same writer...
MWHistorian wrote: It's a sad day for GW when it's compared to My Little Pony.
And a sad day for the human race as well.
I'm not eve sure what I mean by that. I just feel an unquenchable feeling of loss.
I think it best if we just don't bring up MLP ever again.
Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
I'm pretty sure my comment wasn't coming down on the side of MLP being superior. Now that I think about it, I may have been going to opposite way.
A lot of GW's fluff is plain silly. (not in a good way.) The GW dex had fluff written by a 12 year old. Also, the fluff in the rulebooks and dexs haven't changed in a Loooong time. But still, the BL books and the HH books I find very entertaining. "A Thousand Sons" was one of the most tragic books I've ever read.
Daba wrote: I find Goomba (from the Super Mario Bros movie) Space Marines that seem to be pretty popular with the fans these days rather goofy. No less so than biker dwarfs anyway.
I didn't say I didn't like grimderp. Or the Squats.
"Too goofy for 40k" was Jervis' official stance on how and why the squats were removed from the game.
I'm fine with that, but grimdark/derp goes with that good old "Monty Python" goofy vibe. If one removes the latter because he wants to move on something more "cinematic", he should really consider removing the former too.
A Town Called Malus wrote: GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
+1.
Grimdark is quite fine in a silly setting, because too much is never too much.
In a serious setting, grimdark is much more difficult to handle, because it can easily been overdone and get caricatural, gross, or lead to Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy.
So, why the comparison between MLP and 40k ? Because Hasbro may not be the best company around, but these guys seem to be able to recognize a talented author whan they see one.
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