Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
ClockworkZion wrote: Personally I think GW still has good sculptors. There are very few things they put put model wise I look at and find to be legitimately headscratching.
I think they just need to master their CAD system a little more and spend a little longer touching models up before stamping them "done" as it's pretty clear sometimes that a little more work could have gone into some of them.
I will grant you that the CAD program is the heart of their problem - but that lazy sculptors are what give that heart a body....
A while back I was hired to paint a Warhammer starter set.
The elves were excellent! Well sculpted, and designed with an eye on the limitations of the medium.
The skaven... dear gods, above and below, they were bad. Sculpts worse than the ones that were included with Mordheim, a decade and more agone. Instead of getting better with the plastic medium the skaven had gotten worse.
And do not get me started on that awful giant spider thing that the orcs and goblins get.
Then there is the over use of the cut and paste commands - resulting in skulls, skulls, skulls, and more skulls....
Or just plain dumb choices for models - like having giant eagles pulling a freakin' trailer!
But, yes, I am painting all the sculptors at GW with a single brush - and they really do still have some good sculptors.
But my liking of what they are sculpting (skullpting?) drops, year by year.
And I believe that laziness and the over reliance on the CAD program is at the core of my growing dislike.
So, the only times I paint GW models these days is on commissions - and even those are dropping in number, while Raging Heroes, Mantic, Kromlech, Avatars of War, and a Hell of a lot of Reaper Bones miniatures takes its place.
As an aside - the plastic resin Avatars of War dwarf rangers are awesome - they are exactly what I picture for dwarfs. GW is not the only company that needs to learn - if the plastic resin models by Mantic were as good then I would be a happy Grump.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Plumbumbarum wrote: USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Aside from Jervis (self-described doddering old fool, only kept on for his connection to the old days) and Alan Merrett (out of touch with his customers - see testimony in the CHS case) everyone who was someone is gone.
Rick Priestly, Ian Livingstone, Steve Jackson, Andy Chambers (controversial, btw), Alessio Cavatore (Italian tournament player, was the reason 4th and 5th were suitable for tournament, unlike 6th or soon 7th) , Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer, Adrian Wood, Tuomas Pirinenen and several others who's name escapes me atm. Those were in the first generation studio, it seems there may be some from the current studio who are leaving to do work either on their own or for other companies.
At least Warwick Kinrade is still in charge of ForgeWorld.
Odd that James Hewitt is actually going back to GW. They must have read his Dreadball rules and decided they needed to get a handle on things, so they sent 'round the ninjas!
So yeah, some of the people that created40k and WHFB are still around, oh wait they're not.
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
Hasbro didn't even have much of a direct effect on the failure that was 4e. While the success of the 3.X architecture can be laid firmly to WotC, so to can the marketing fumble that crippled 4e before it was even released. (A hint to game companies out there - insulting and/or otherwise alienating your existing player base is not an effective way to gain a new fan base. Yes, GW... I am talking about you.)
And even then they were top market share up until their hazardous idea to screw 4E with Essentials to try and nab some pathfinder fans, then it dropped below Pathfinder.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 08:14:41
Potential Licenses under GW - Warhammer 40K and Fantasy
Potential Licenses under Hasbro - Warhammer 40K and Fantasy, Star Wars, Mass Effect, Warcraft and Starcraft, Forgotten Realms, Dragon Age to name a few.
That's why I'm all for a Hasbro takeover.
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
Potential Licenses under Hasbro - Warhammer 40K and Fantasy, Star Wars, Mass Effect, Warcraft and Starcraft, Forgotten Realms, Dragon Age to name a few.
That's why I'm all for a Hasbro takeover.
Why would being in a massive company with more licences be better for 40k & Fantasy?
Okay: Keep in mind, this is only my own observations, and I have nothing to back it up....
The only thing GW has that would draw any potential is the strength of their IP (intellectual Property) aka, the Warhammer Fantasy, and Warhammer 40K license. They have increased their profit numbers, and sacrificed long term profitability for short term gain. The only reason this would make sense is to try to pad the numbers to attract a buyer/ keep stockholders happy.
But Even now, GW is starting to weaken their own IP. You don't need to past Storm of Vengeance to see that. That video game is just a plants vs zombie clone with a 40k skin.
So Yes, I would LOVE to see someone buy GW... If only to save them from themselves.
I like to say I have two armies: Necrons, and Imperium.....
btw I'm not some Britain lover but just like any other European country they have times more class when it comes to art. Sorry Americans, just an opinion.
Alex melon-fething Ross
Sure it's not 100% great in Europe and 0 in USA. More like 97% / 3% or sth heh
Plumbumbarum wrote: USA companies are champions of milking, destroying, diluting and dumbing down IPs.
Not to mention GW as crap as it is, is still run by some of the people that created 40k and WHFB. Why would I wish them to be bought by a toy company in a first place, it's theirs and they are free to do what they want with it, even if the collective nerd hates it. The wishes for GW to go down are only notch or two below the death threats to critics who dared bashing Dark Knight Rises btw, just a nerdrage that went too far.
Aside from Jervis (self-described doddering old fool, only kept on for his connection to the old days) and Alan Merrett (out of touch with his customers - see testimony in the CHS case) everyone who was someone is gone.
Don't forget John Blanche they keep in the basement.
xraytango wrote: Alessio Cavatore (Italian tournament player, was the reason 4th and 5th were suitable for tournament, unlike 6th or soon 7th)
It was before Allesio when GW wanted to make 40k and especialy fantasy a more tourney oriented game, I remember that from some interview with Rick Priestley. No really related though.
xraytango wrote: At least Warwick Kinrade is still in charge of ForgeWorld.
Odd that James Hewitt is actually going back to GW. They must have read his Dreadball rules and decided they needed to get a handle on things, so they sent 'round the ninjas!
So yeah, some of the people that created40k and WHFB are still around, oh wait they're not.
So yeah, exactly some people are still around. Not many but some. Jervis, regardless of your opinion on him, was there in times of Rogue Trader I think, Blanche was. Not to mention the creation of 40k was an ongoing proccess so I'd include 2nd and maybe even 3rd edition when Rick Priestley's straight 2000AD ripoff became something of its own. Yeah guys from the covers are gone and I don't know the middle stuff which is why I wrote some, so yeah.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
Hasbro has already trashed the entire Avalon Hill inventory when they took them over. Now they're dragging AH's name through the mud by stamping their name on the Axis and Allies series.
Hasbro would turn WHFB/WH40k into another version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Something has to happen. GW has made 40k it's own parody, and it driving away loyal fans by scores every year. The accelerated releases is a pretty clear indicator of desperation.
But, could Hasbro really do worse? At worse they would just accelerate the inevitable. Which to me is better than this long drawn out painful death that we are going through now.
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
SickSix wrote: No that I voted, I would like to retract.
Perhaps Bandai would be a better choice?
Something has to happen. GW has made 40k it's own parody, and it driving away loyal fans by scores every year. The accelerated releases is a pretty clear indicator of desperation.
But, could Hasbro really do worse? At worse they would just accelerate the inevitable. Which to me is better than this long drawn out painful death that we are going through now.
Umm... No Bandai would be bad... This is the company that won't release Gundam in the US anymore because they got pissy over fansubs.... and because they're a japanese company they have "international blinders" that a lot of people within Japan has. there are youtube videos by Gaijin Goomba that cover this topic very well.
I like to say I have two armies: Necrons, and Imperium.....
I think Rick had long since left the development side of things as far as 40k/WFB were concerned, and once it became obvious that all of the historical/specialist game stuff had the writing on the wall there wasn't really anything left to do at GW.
But, I think it's important to remember the guy who was the main actor behind what has since become the biggest sci-fi wargame in the world, and perhaps think that you should be at least a little bit respectful?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 18:10:44
I think Rick had long since left the development side of things as far as 40k/WFB were concerned, and once it became obvious that all of the historical/specialist game stuff had the writing on the wall there wasn't really anything left to do at GW.
But, I think it's important to remember the guy who was the main actor behind what has since become the biggest sci-fi wargame in the world, and perhaps think that you should be at least a little bit respectful?
I didn't mean him disrespect, he seems like a nice guy from interviews etc and though he did shamelessly rip off 2000AD for Rogue Trader, he openly admitted that (ofc with euphemisms like that a lot of it "slipped"" or sth like that afair ), he was working on Judge Dredd game just before RT I think.
It was good that he left imo because we could still have Space Marines with mohawks and earring or sth equally silly, I might be wrong on this though as far as responsibility for the in your face punkish direction went. It's still there somewhere but subtlier and with a better inside joke imo.
btw I'd also like to point out that I mean no disrespect to Americans with my comments about art etc, I just think 40k does not fit your current sensibilities or sth, it's kind of hardto put into words heh. If it was Lovecraft not King/ Masterton era then maybe but not now imo. I'm sure many USA based members of the forum could handle it right but you are not the companies that could buy GW now ie Hasbro.
This is kind of funny though, you lecture me on respect after a post like this:
Plumbumbarum wrote:Good riddance btw.
then why don't you start with posts like
Kain wrote: I should probably bow out of the thread before my hate of GW gets me in trouble. But I will say that I believe that GW is *ahem*
GW is a collection of the worst scum in gaming, no calling them scum is offensive to actual pond scum which preforms a vital function in the ecosystem. GW's current staff is comprised of idiots, no lower than idiots. They are stupid, incompetent, lazy, greedy, meanspirited, and boorish fools who clearly create their products by slapping their dicks on the keyboard. Their vile lust for money is so great that they would swear allegiance to Hitler in a synagogue and piss on Schindler's grave if it would earn them a few pennies more. I would call them vermin but such would be doing vermin a disservice.
Not a single ounce of competence or intelligence has graced the halls of GW in years, as even the lowliest of Bacteria would look upon the gathering of unseemly moneygrubbers there and realize that their presence would profane their existences. Almost everything GW has done since Escalation has been a monument to the depthless bounds of human stupidity. Actually scratch that, that would imply that the blobs of meat in GW are human, and I would rather not associate our species with such organisms as they. Were the GW design staff to die tomorrow, I would salt and exorcise their graves so that no demons of stupidity could spread from their surely tainted corpses.
Anything is better than GW.
or
xraytango wrote: Aside from Jervis (self-described doddering old fool, only kept on for his connection to the old days)
I understand Mat Ward is not Rick Priestley maybe but man that seems a bit, I don't know, unfair, to start fighting for respect at the point in the thread you chose heh.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
Hasbro didn't even have much of a direct effect on the failure that was 4e. While the success of the 3.X architecture can be laid firmly to WotC, so to can the marketing fumble that crippled 4e before it was even released. (A hint to game companies out there - insulting and/or otherwise alienating your existing player base is not an effective way to gain a new fan base. Yes, GW... I am talking about you.)
And even then they were top market share up until their hazardous idea to screw 4E with Essentials to try and nab some pathfinder fans, then it dropped below Pathfinder.
Depends on which source you listen to, and where you are doing your listening - locally Pathfinder beat 4e within a year, for actual sales, well before Essentials ever appeared.
A bit of a digression follows, in a Spoiler bracket, because it is about D&D, not GW.
Spoiler:
The numbers are skewed to begin with - because the bookstores expected 4e to be a big seller they bought whole cases of the core books - three of each in the case of our local Border's.
The real number is the initial sales minus the returns.
And even on the initial release 4e's sales to returns ratio was anything but stellar.
At first I thought that it was simply that my area has a much more discerning RPG community, but then the numbers kept tilting toward Pathfinder.
But what killed 4e for the local bookstores was returns - WotC wants hardcovers returned in resellable condition.
And most of the very first shipment of 4e was returned, unsold. Two out of three cases, for each title.
I think that Essentials happened because WotC saw the tilting battlefield so they went for a lower entry point and also tried to address the problem that the book sellers described - the above mentioned returns.
There are folks (myself included) that expected that the big Gen Con announcement that got cancelled, before the last ditch effort that was Essentials, was that 4e was being cancelled and that 5e was in the works.
Essentials happened because of the returns. Paperbacks, including Essentials, are not returned, they are stripped, and only the covers sent back - the rest of the book being destroyed.
When the Essentials books and red boxes didn't sell the bookstores... destroyed them. Including most of the beginner boxes - and my friend at Border's didn't even get a chance to salvage the dice from the boxes.
I am afraid that 4e was a mistake from early in its run.
Pathfinder, by contrast, had only light sales at first - Border' getting two of the Core Rulebook. Not two cases... two books.)
Which sold the first day.
So Border's bought two more.
Which sold as soon as they were on the shelf.
Rinse and repeat.
The bookstore never getting as many copies of the book at a time as the initial release of 4e - but selling through Pathfinder on a regular basis, with no returns.
And even getting them just one or two copies at a time... Pathfinder outstripped the sales of 4e.
This is what bookstores like to see - a constant flow.
I could go on, and have (at length) on other forums, but it was returns more than anything else that killed 4e for the bookstores.
I honestly thought that Essentials was a good idea - a low entry point and strippable books.
But the only things that sold well were the boxed sets of tiles for building encounter areas. (Which sold amazingly well - and likely outsold even Pathfinder. But then... I think that a lot of those tiles were being used for Pathfinder....)
Between a fumbled Profession [Marketing] roll and the returns... 4e just did not do as well as 3.5.
Sadly, Pathfinder is not doing as well as 3.5, either - WotC tried to grab all the marketshare, but instead they split the market.
The indirect way that Hasbro was involved with 4e... was a change in corporate policy, with games and toys that make less than a specified amount were going to be 'marginalized'. 3.5 was well below that specified amount... so, WotC panicked and released 4e, doing as much as they could to kill third party sales in the process - - because while WotC's share of D&D/D20/OGL was below that specified amount, the D&D/D20/OGL market as a whole was well above that amount.
WotC wanted it all - they got greedy, and then they got stupid. So they deliberately designed 4e to not be compatible with the OGL, changing the definition of terms, changing the way skills and hit points work (specifically in regards to healing), and telling folks not to bother updating their settings or their characters - to just start over.
And the GSL... was a millstone intended to be tied around the necks of the third party publishers, so that they might drown.
But first WotC tied that millstone around their own necks - because the original WotC folks, the ones that had founded the company, had deliberately worded the OGL in such a way that it was irrevocable.
Because they realized that sooner or later some idiot would try such shenanigans.
So, Pathfinder happened - more because of WotC's own mistakes than because Paizo even wanted to create a new game. (Look up just how much WotC dicked around with the license for 4e... Paizo had a choice between not releasing any material for a year or creating a D20 compatible game.
The result was Pathfinder - a game that I like better than 3.5, and a heck of a lot better than 4e.
Sorry about the diatribe - but at least I have hidden it.
Hasbro... has its own problems, as does WotC - but at least WotC does show a willingness to learn from past mistakes.
A willingness that GW has not demonstrated.
The Auld Grump - the worst part is that that diatribe was the simplified and abridged version....
*EDIT* An important clarification - aside from Pathfinder - 4e blew the doors off of all the competition.
Pathfinder can be viewed as D&D 3.75... so WotC lost only against the continuation of their own, discarded, product.
Yes - discarded, not merely discontinued. There was no reason that WotC could not have kept 3.5 and 4e (under a different title, perhaps) running in parallel.
Because they were worried that 3.5 and 4e (by whatever title) would split the market, WotC... split the market.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/20 02:33:19
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
This is kind of funny though, you lecture me on respect after a post like this:
Plumbumbarum wrote:Good riddance btw.
then why don't you start with posts like
Kain wrote: I should probably bow out of the thread before my hate of GW gets me in trouble. But I will say that I believe that GW is *ahem*
GW is a collection of the worst scum in gaming, no calling them scum is offensive to actual pond scum which preforms a vital function in the ecosystem... *snip*
Because I stopped reading that post after the first line
I've got a lot of time for Jervis Johnson. The Specialist Games range lasted for years longer than was originally planned (he apparently offered to take responsibility for it completely), when the upper management wanted to remove it and the whole range from the site completely.
The biggest thing that I approve of Hasbro for, they not only have shown that they have no problem working with their audience to make things better. But that they can go into a new thing, feth it up, then make it better than it ever was. I would be willing to put money down that the first rule book from and first codexes will be crap. Not even going to lie. But Hasbro will have no problem with fixing them (regardless if they give it to WOTC or keep it separate). So unlike GW ignoring broke gak, and then trying to fix it by making more broke gak, Hasbro will just say "wait, you mean that doesn't work or people are abusing that? Ok, well we'll fix it"
on top of that, first thing Hasbro is going to do is follow GW supposed target audience. Teens. Addict them while they are young. But unlike GW, Hasbro will know that means you need to drop the price of books and models as much as possible while still making a profit. Prices will hold for a bit, then drop exponentially then slowly rise till they get to the maximum effeciency (the point where the higher price point isn't driving off so many customers as to upset their return customers too much as well as keep people from being willing to be first time buyers)
what does this mean for us? People like my Ork friend will have less of a problem putting new models in his army should he so choose (he has plenty of models from the 80's)
or my other friend who buys about 2000 point of one army near beginning of year, another 2000 of same army halfway, builds and paints them all. Then when he starts the next one sells the old one. He'll build bigger armies (or save more money to go towards hiring pro painters.)
or people like me, who work 2+ jobs but have bills and is semi-new (to complete my army it'd cost half of what the engagement ring I'm looking at for BF costs. That's most a months salary to get this army in shape). So my army is almost all 2nd owner (lucky enough to get second and not 3rd or 4th) who really just wants to finish fleshing out this army so he can join in the campaign all his friends are starting next month.
End game, at first Hasbro will suck with it, then assuming people prepare for this and accept it is going to happen and so are determined to stick with 40k but let hasbro know that what they did was bad and it should be like this, they will fix it. Even go so far as to retract fluff (I run GK but I'm begging them to fix our fluff, especially Draigo). Hasbro understands that the consumer is judge jury and prosecution (something we GKs know a little about) and their game designers are a pretty week defense.
So we the gamers will decide what kind of universe we want, and the game designers will give it color. They decide to paint Smurf blue over here and we say "hold up jack, now that don't make no sense. what business do them smurfs got goin' up and taken a dump on wolf lawn?", Hasbro will say "oh really? Ok guys. I guess that never happened.... (epic voice) STRIKE IT FROM THE RECORD!!!!"
Why would being in a massive company with more licences be better for 40k & Fantasy?
Tbh if GW detail plastic Mass effect mini's came out, I generally wouldn't need 40k as much. I am of course thinking more in line with Specialist games here btw.. Mass Effect for example doesn't need a full tabletop game on a 40K level.. but a tightly written skirmish set with a number of warbands to pick from would be a very enticing alternative to small 40K games as a rival to Infinity/Warmachine.
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
Why would being in a massive company with more licences be better for 40k & Fantasy?
Tbh if GW detail plastic Mass effect mini's came out, I generally wouldn't need 40k as much. I am of course thinking more in line with Specialist games here btw.. Mass Effect for example doesn't need a full tabletop game on a 40K level.. but a tightly written skirmish set with a number of warbands to pick from would be a very enticing alternative to small 40K games as a rival to Infinity/Warmachine.
Infinity would actually work for ME really well if there where models for it and someone could squeeze in rules for psionics.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
That being said I do think we would get more competitive support which would be nice. However I don't think that the problems were facing would be fixed such as unbalanced armies and price of the game.
I want Hasbro to buy GW because maybe, just maybe, there would be a snowball's chance in hell that a GI JOE miniature game might be produced. The long odds on that occurring alone would make me happy with whatever Hasbro did to GW's properties.
Zad Fnark wrote: Hasbro would turn WHFB/WH40k into another version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Doubtful. Now if we were talking about Playmates...
Hasbro didn't even have much of a direct effect on the failure that was 4e. While the success of the 3.X architecture can be laid firmly to WotC, so to can the marketing fumble that crippled 4e before it was even released. (A hint to game companies out there - insulting and/or otherwise alienating your existing player base is not an effective way to gain a new fan base. Yes, GW... I am talking about you.)
And even then they were top market share up until their hazardous idea to screw 4E with Essentials to try and nab some pathfinder fans, then it dropped below Pathfinder.
Depends on which source you listen to, and where you are doing your listening - locally Pathfinder beat 4e within a year, for actual sales, well before Essentials ever appeared.
A bit of a digression follows, in a Spoiler bracket, because it is about D&D, not GW.
Spoiler:
The numbers are skewed to begin with - because the bookstores expected 4e to be a big seller they bought whole cases of the core books - three of each in the case of our local Border's.
The real number is the initial sales minus the returns.
And even on the initial release 4e's sales to returns ratio was anything but stellar.
At first I thought that it was simply that my area has a much more discerning RPG community, but then the numbers kept tilting toward Pathfinder.
But what killed 4e for the local bookstores was returns - WotC wants hardcovers returned in resellable condition.
And most of the very first shipment of 4e was returned, unsold. Two out of three cases, for each title.
I think that Essentials happened because WotC saw the tilting battlefield so they went for a lower entry point and also tried to address the problem that the book sellers described - the above mentioned returns.
There are folks (myself included) that expected that the big Gen Con announcement that got cancelled, before the last ditch effort that was Essentials, was that 4e was being cancelled and that 5e was in the works.
Essentials happened because of the returns. Paperbacks, including Essentials, are not returned, they are stripped, and only the covers sent back - the rest of the book being destroyed.
When the Essentials books and red boxes didn't sell the bookstores... destroyed them. Including most of the beginner boxes - and my friend at Border's didn't even get a chance to salvage the dice from the boxes.
I am afraid that 4e was a mistake from early in its run.
Pathfinder, by contrast, had only light sales at first - Border' getting two of the Core Rulebook. Not two cases... two books.)
Which sold the first day.
So Border's bought two more.
Which sold as soon as they were on the shelf.
Rinse and repeat.
The bookstore never getting as many copies of the book at a time as the initial release of 4e - but selling through Pathfinder on a regular basis, with no returns.
And even getting them just one or two copies at a time... Pathfinder outstripped the sales of 4e.
This is what bookstores like to see - a constant flow.
I could go on, and have (at length) on other forums, but it was returns more than anything else that killed 4e for the bookstores.
I honestly thought that Essentials was a good idea - a low entry point and strippable books.
But the only things that sold well were the boxed sets of tiles for building encounter areas. (Which sold amazingly well - and likely outsold even Pathfinder. But then... I think that a lot of those tiles were being used for Pathfinder....)
Between a fumbled Profession [Marketing] roll and the returns... 4e just did not do as well as 3.5.
Sadly, Pathfinder is not doing as well as 3.5, either - WotC tried to grab all the marketshare, but instead they split the market.
The indirect way that Hasbro was involved with 4e... was a change in corporate policy, with games and toys that make less than a specified amount were going to be 'marginalized'. 3.5 was well below that specified amount... so, WotC panicked and released 4e, doing as much as they could to kill third party sales in the process - - because while WotC's share of D&D/D20/OGL was below that specified amount, the D&D/D20/OGL market as a whole was well above that amount.
WotC wanted it all - they got greedy, and then they got stupid. So they deliberately designed 4e to not be compatible with the OGL, changing the definition of terms, changing the way skills and hit points work (specifically in regards to healing), and telling folks not to bother updating their settings or their characters - to just start over.
And the GSL... was a millstone intended to be tied around the necks of the third party publishers, so that they might drown.
But first WotC tied that millstone around their own necks - because the original WotC folks, the ones that had founded the company, had deliberately worded the OGL in such a way that it was irrevocable.
Because they realized that sooner or later some idiot would try such shenanigans.
So, Pathfinder happened - more because of WotC's own mistakes than because Paizo even wanted to create a new game. (Look up just how much WotC dicked around with the license for 4e... Paizo had a choice between not releasing any material for a year or creating a D20 compatible game.
The result was Pathfinder - a game that I like better than 3.5, and a heck of a lot better than 4e.
Sorry about the diatribe - but at least I have hidden it.
Hasbro... has its own problems, as does WotC - but at least WotC does show a willingness to learn from past mistakes.
A willingness that GW has not demonstrated.
The Auld Grump - the worst part is that that diatribe was the simplified and abridged version....
*EDIT* An important clarification - aside from Pathfinder - 4e blew the doors off of all the competition.
Pathfinder can be viewed as D&D 3.75... so WotC lost only against the continuation of their own, discarded, product.
Yes - discarded, not merely discontinued. There was no reason that WotC could not have kept 3.5 and 4e (under a different title, perhaps) running in parallel.
Because they were worried that 3.5 and 4e (by whatever title) would split the market, WotC... split the market.
I loved reading this thank you. I liked 4e but Pathfinder just blew it out of the water by staying true to what people knew. 4e was a great 'beginners' tabletop rpg. The ritual system needed fixing and that was it really. The problem was the treatment of the old guard, and that does parallel a bit on what is going on with GW. The old guard is gone, and you got a lot of young 'directionless' people trying to get in on the popularity.
Shame someone hasn't Pathfinderized, Warhammer 40K's 3rd edition (i.e. the best edition.)
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
Bad idea.
I'm confused, all I ever hear from GW's shareholder reports is ever increasing growth for the stockholders...
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
So what you're saying is nothing would change.
I still figure if Hasboro bought it, they would probably do better, and even if they didn't, I don't think they'd do worse.
I'd prefer to see a management shake-up at the current company, one that would hopefully result in them heading down a better path for the long-term.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 22:01:57
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
Bad idea.
I'm confused, all I ever hear from GW's shareholder reports is ever increasing growth for the stockholders...
Exactly, many say things were much better before GW started worrying too much about the stockholders.
RatBot wrote:
Demigod wrote: In my experience anytime an American Corporation buys a smaller company and tries to "Corporatize" it to make sure the stockholders have ever increasing growth, the end use suffers.
So what you're saying is nothing would change.
I still figure if Hasboro bought it, they would probably do better, and even if they didn't, I don't think they'd do worse.
I'd prefer to see a management shake-up at the current company, one that would hopefully result in them heading down a better path for the long-term.
In my opinion it would...I'm guessing a Hasbro owned 40K would go in a direction that I wouldn't care for..much more so than even GW which is small by comparison. GW also has more interest I think in the game than a corporation like Hasbro would. Mind you...it's just my take on things.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Shame someone hasn't Pathfinderized, Warhammer 40K's 3rd edition (i.e. the best edition.)
My own favorite as well.
I would have been much happier if GW had just refined 3e, rather than changing things for the sake of change.
My choking point for 4th ed. WH40K was the change to blast weapons - putting back the damned stupid deviation rules that I had hated in 2nd. ed..... WH40K's weapons are just too unreliable to have verisimilitude, at least for me.
And the more I play Kings of War... the less enamored that I become with blast templates to begin with. (Playing a lot of KoW these days....)
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Zad Fnark wrote: Hasbro has already trashed the entire Avalon Hill inventory when they took them over. Now they're dragging AH's name through the mud by stamping their name on the Axis and Allies series.
Hasbro would turn WHFB/WH40k into another version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
ZF-
As an avid Avalon Hill board gamer growing up I can remember when Hasbro bought AH, my favorite game company. Someone on the internet lamenting about the time it happened and what it meant for the future of board wargaming years later said something like "our favorite wargaming company was bought out by a company that thinks Mr Potato Head is a hot item." Even though the potato probably is it did not end well for all those great titles that disappeared.
Yes, Lucas pretty much forced Hasbro to shut down some Star Wars sites, but for things that are Hasbro's IP, they're very cooperative with the fansites.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/22 02:44:09
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
I am of course thinking more in line with Specialist games here 
Children of Stirba 
Order of Saint Pan Thera 
