With the rumors of the impending rules change for Jink (Snap shots after electing to do a jink save for all units, not just fliers) re eldar jetbikes, jetseer council and tanks still going to be the way to go for Eldar or will it be moved to more infiltrate/deepstrike/outflank?

 Xerics wrote:
With the rumors of the impending rules change for Jink (Snap shots after electing to do a jink save for all units, not just fliers) re eldar jetbikes, jetseer council and tanks still going to be the way to go for Eldar or will it be moved to more infiltrate/deepstrike/outflank?

It's impossible to know what they way to go will be for ANY codex right now.

At the very least, it makes serpent-spam a little less invulnerable.

Glad my Heldrakes still have a 5+ invun, unless they change the daemon rule.

It makes sense, if you are going fast enough to avoid being hit, it should lower your own accuracy.

But that also means my CM on a bike can again tank for cents

I am sure people will stop playing certain units as if they were indestructable.

There is a pretty big balance gap between:
Regular vehicles
Jink vehicles
Jink vehicles that can take +1 to cover saves

Without it necessarily being reflected in their points cost.

apparently it would come with a change to snap shots. wait and see, wait and see

wtnind wrote:
There is a pretty big balance gap between:
Regular vehicles
Jink vehicles
Jink vehicles that can take +1 to cover saves

Without it necessarily being reflected in their points cost.

Dark Eldar boats just got better with their 5++, no need to jink.

Tau have a tough decision but markerlights make up for it. Disruption Pods turn that 4+ into a 3+ and markerlight support means you're firing at full BS or better with hammerheads.

I think this makes perfect sense. But maybe they will give the Skilled Rider USR the ability to fire at full BS even if electing to take a jink save.

Although Ork Bikers still get their exhaust cloud cover save!!

 Icculus wrote:
I think this makes perfect sense. But maybe they will give the Skilled Rider USR the ability to fire at full BS even if electing to take a jink save.

Although Ork Bikers still get their exhaust cloud cover save!!

and orks firing twinlinked big shootas as snapshots are only slightly less effect than at full Ork BS.



yay for speculation!

Personally, I'd rather they bring back 4th ed's "the model must end its movement phase at least so far from where it started" restriction. It's been two editions now that a skimmer can basically just shimmy in place, but LOOK HOW HARD THEY ARE TO SHOOT!!!

The move or shoot mechanic would be somewhat less ideal, but it would be nice to give them something that made jinking a decision rather than a just-because free save.

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Hardly a surprise, just makes jink save universal for flyers (which already have that rule) and everyone else.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

I find bikes getting it to be the craziest thing. With their massive point drop in 6th they get the jink save for free for just moving a half inch.

But the save is hardly the only part of the cost. There's the AV, the weapons options (which can be nasty), the kind of passengers it can carry and the fact that it's a transport at all. And that most skimmers are also fast, and they can move through impassable terrain and never take dangerous terrain tests if the player doesn't want them to.

Take all of that, and throw in their magic shield of nullification/twin-liking zapmaster, and yeah, I'd certainly argue that a wave serpent should cost twice as much as a chimera, even without being able to take a cover save with them just by scooting over a fraction of an inch in the movement phase.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave serpent.
Serpent shield with defense or offense option (both ridiculously good options), a st6 high rof gun to twinlink it, fast skimmer (which is massive by itself), holofields which can still combine with cover for a 3+ cover, transport capacity, dedicated transport, av12. 145pts.


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Landspeeder with dual mm. Ot is a sucicide unit anyway, has a 12" melta range, 24" st8 ap1 range, deepstrikes and is therefore very likely to destroy what it was sent into destroy in the first place. Still worth the cost without the jink. 80pts.


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Fire prism.
Extensive range. Incredibly strong AT gun. Can still get 3+ cover with holofields, which it usually will get with its range and no need to transport.

I wouldn't say jink saves are destroyed, but they appear to be more of a tactical tool now, rather than a given.

Bike armies will be hit quite hard by this, as will wave serpents.

Of course this is speculation, as there may be changes to snapfire. However thus far it seems reasonable, white scar bikes getting a 4+ cover save when sitting in the middle of a field is a but much.

However on the other side of things, weaker skimmers like the landspeeder will suffer unnecessarily.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Annihilation Barges. You are now required to put them behind terrain just as usual vehicles.

Also, Ghost Arks now got a 4++

Hmmm, well still just a rumour but I think that's kind of silly.

Wave Serpent spam breaks games so instead of nerfing the serpent shield we'll mess with jink saves? Give an inch, take a mile much anyone?

Seems almost like true blue, dyed in the wool democracy to me!

Its not going to affect serps too much either as most eldar players use them to hang back (behind cover) and pour on the firepower anyway (unless transporting fragons or wraiths), and only advance them upfield to objective capture once threats to them have been dealt with. So they will still get a 3+ with holofields anyhow.

 agnosto wrote:
Dark Eldar boats just got better with their 5++, no need to jink.

Tau have a tough decision but markerlights make up for it. Disruption Pods turn that 4+ into a 3+ and markerlight support means you're firing at full BS or better with hammerheads.

Or get Sensor Spines and park inside terrain

Poly Ranger wrote:
Its not going to affect serps too much either as most eldar players use them to hang back (behind cover) and pour on the firepower anyway (unless transporting fragons or wraiths), and only advance them upfield to objective capture once threats to them have been dealt with. So they will still get a 3+ with holofields anyhow.

It means they will be more limited in their movement though, as they will have to use cover more. They lose 50% durability when then are shot out in the open with weapons that do not usually ignore cover, this will stop them controlling the board so easily.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpents

Good balancing I think, then change snap to allow blasts to be shot only auto scatter d6 and on miss scatter 3d6.

Templates I am just not sure how to balance with snap.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpents

Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports. Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't. If the shield gets discharged then you go for that penetrating hit to blow it up as they don't have the 2+ reduce pen to glance effect when shield has been used as a weapon. I don't know how much a chimera costs but I feel like getting a "free" jink save for how many points it costs for our only transport (meaning we have to buy another unit to even have access) is acceptable.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpent - hugely OP

145pts for a very powerful vehicle that is not only durable but deadily against a variety of enemies - especially its opposite numbers.

yes Eldar should have more choice in DTransports

The whole we have to buy scoring and not ieffective units to use them is very weak............

Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't.

So everyone but Eldar players who want to spam them?

 Xerics wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpents

Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports. Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't. If the shield gets discharged then you go for that penetrating hit to blow it up as they don't have the 2+ reduce pen to glance effect when shield has been used as a weapon. I don't know how much a chimera costs but I feel like getting a "free" jink save for how many points it costs for our only transport (meaning we have to buy another unit to even have access) is acceptable.

You relise most other armies have to pay a lot more for both durability and firepower, right? and how most of those choices take up a slot?

I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

If the wave serpent was avaliable for ANY other army as a dedicated transport they would be taken over anything else. That by definition makes them undercosted in comparison to other dedicated transports.
The fact that you consider the units inside a 'tax' yet many eldar players still spam them shows this even further.
They have range, good strength, high rof, twin linked, (or almost immune to pens), fast, skimmer, transport, av12 front and side, 3+ cover behind cover, takes no FOC slot.
To put that in context, BA preds pay 30 to 40 pts just for fast.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

Wrong. They only get that 2+ reduction to glances IF they don't fire their shields. You can't count it both as shooting and defending.

How about we ignore wave serpents for this conversation?

And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Poly Ranger wrote:
And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Falcon is not a transport. It is a HS tank that happens to have transport capability but it can't be taken as a transport. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Like necron breadplanes?
The normal one the bring can house a nasty gun, but the dedicated cannot and is more annoying as feth than anything else.

I hate eldar with a passion. And this is coming from a Tau player lol.
Wave serpents are so undercosted it isnt even funny. Anyone who argues they arent doesnt know the value of what they have apparently. My Devilfish are ~10-15pts cheaper depending on loadout and are NO WHERE NEAR as strong or durable. How does 10-15pts justify two nasty ROF guns with crazy range and anti-pen shieldings that are on a 2+ chance? It doesnt.

 Xerics wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

Wrong. They only get that 2+ reduction to glances IF they don't fire their shields. You can't count it both as shooting and defending.

Yes and you have to decide which to use tactically. Dont moan that you can't have both. Having the choice is stupendous!


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 Xerics wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Falcon is not a transport. It is a HS tank that happens to have transport capability but it can't be taken as a transport. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

I know but it still has transport capability. Therefore is actually a transport whether a tank or not.


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Hang on... units cant start inside it? Then how do ravens/valkaries/vendettas transport units?

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

Wrong. They only get that 2+ reduction to glances IF they don't fire their shields. You can't count it both as shooting and defending.

Yes and you have to decide which to use tactically. Dont moan that you can't have both. Having the choice is stupendous!


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 Xerics wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Falcon is not a transport. It is a HS tank that happens to have transport capability but it can't be taken as a transport. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

I know but it still has transport capability. Therefore is actually a transport whether a tank or not.

It still takes up a Heavy Support slot. and only has a 6 model transport capacity, costs more, and doesn't have the survivability of the serpent. The Falcon may as well not even exist seeing as how the serpent does its job better. The falcon does get the Pulse Laser but it really isn't that good. If you want something to shoot at other tanks with just get a crimson hunter. For only a few more points you get 2x the firepower.

I agree. Totally. Im just pointing out it is there.


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It was a side note after all. Not meant to derail the point that the serpent is insanely awesome for its points :-p.

Excuse me? You get the exact benefits I stated. So I am in no way wrong.
The eldar player also gets to chose when to shoot the shield, so if they need it for defense, they don't need to fire it. They still get their 6-7 str 6 hits. Eldar player still has the advantage.

Serpents are very powerful, this has been confirmed by so many people for so many reasons that by now it is basically a fact.
You won't find many (if any) people to support you. I hope this in some way makes you realize that your point here is wrong.

 Xerics wrote:


Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.

Yes, Ghost Arks are flyers, correct

darkcloak wrote:
Hmmm, well still just a rumour but I think that's kind of silly.

Wave Serpent spam breaks games so instead of nerfing the serpent shield we'll mess with jink saves? Give an inch, take a mile much anyone?

Seems almost like true blue, dyed in the wool democracy to me!

It is silly to debate how rumars are going to influence tactics when we dont know the full effect of the rumors.

But I also agree that trying to nerf OP wave serpents by changing skimmers isn't the grandest of plans.

DE have three fast skimmers, the best of them, the venom with its OP 12 shot posion cannons has a built in 5++ and doesnt care about jinking.
Ravagers use to be awesome, but 105 points for 3 almost lascannons isn't as great as it use to be.
Raiders are ok, but not great. 60 points for an almost lascannon, not too bad. Perhaps if the things they carried were scary again they would seem better.

Xerics wrote:Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports.

Yes, and a chimera with...

Relic plating
Dozer blade
stubber
recovery gear
extra armor
fire barrels
HK missile
camo netting
augur array

... costs 153 points. So what? Does that mean chimeras are grossly overcosted just because you can make them really expensive by piling on upgrades? Voluntary upgrades? That also make the vehicle better?

Co'tor Shas wrote:How about we ignore wave serpents for this conversation?

Not that we should have to, but fine.

Let's talk raiders. They're a little cheaper than a chimera, and sure, they are definitely flimsier when you shoot them in the front arc (though the same from the rear and sides). Except that raiders...

- are an assault vehicle

- come with 10 fire ports

- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)

- are BS4

- ignore night fighting

- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter

- can pass through friendly and even enemy units

- can pass through impassable terrain, and even end their movement in it

- can completely avoid making dangerous terrain tests

- can dodge ramming attempts

- can transport their cargo 30" in a single turn (or farther with aethersails).

- can move 12" and still fire their anti-tank weapon at full BS4.

... and then you're going to tell me that on top of all of these other advantages, a person should be able to bump the table, and that's enough for them to get a 5+ cover save regardless of where they are on the board, even though a 5++, which is nearly the same, costs 10 points?

Skimmers makes a transport much stronger, as it allows the vehicle to be a transport better than non-skimmer vehicles. Making a transport into a fast skimmer makes them crazy better. Of course, the next step up is making a transport a flier, which is just dumb, but that's a different story.

Anyways, skimmers, especially fast ones are underpriced for what they give the player, even if you completely discarded jink. But that's not even what we're talking about, we're talking about still keeping jink, just making it require a little bit of meaningful player decision, rather than a free "that shot just didn't work" button.

Indeed we are talking about jink saves... but let me ask you... without any modification to the model, can a falcon chassis get a cover save from an ADL?

If the answer is Yes, then you would be right and Wave Serpents would have no right to a jink save, or any skimmer as they all have the same problem.

However, if the answer is No, then understand you have a double standard on your hands and think about the outcome of such a broad sweeping change to any type of skimmer.

What?

Is an ADL the one and only way that something can get a cover save anymore? Seems like kind of a waste to have written all those rules for terrain I guess that no one uses.

 Ailaros wrote:
What?

Is an ADL the one and only way that something can get a cover save anymore? Seems like kind of a waste to have written all those rules for terrain I guess that no one uses.

Of course not but it proves a point...

Any non skimmer can easily get a save if there is SOMETHING in front of it, up to and including foot troops. Skimmers cannot get that benefit as they are too high off the ground.

 Ailaros wrote:

Let's talk raiders. They're a little cheaper than a chimera, and sure, they are definitely flimsier when you shoot them in the front arc (though the same from the rear and sides). Except that raiders...

- are an assault vehicle
- come with 10 fire ports
- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)
- are BS4
- ignore night fighting
- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter
- can pass through friendly and even enemy units
- can pass through impassable terrain, and even end their movement in it
- can completely avoid making dangerous terrain tests
- can dodge ramming attempts
- can transport their cargo 30" in a single turn (or farther with aethersails).
- can move 12" and still fire their anti-tank weapon at full BS4.

... and then you're going to tell me that on top of all of these other advantages, a person should be able to bump the table, and that's enough for them to get a 5+ cover save regardless of where they are on the board, even though a 5++, which is nearly the same, costs 10 points?

A 5++ is much better than 5+ cover, with all the ignores cover out there and the 5++ works in assault

 Ailaros wrote:

- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter

They come with a Dark Lance instead of a Multilaser AND a heavy bolter. 6 shots to 1. The chimera also has the option to take other weapons, autocannons, dual heavy bolter, heavy flamers.

 Ailaros wrote:

- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)

What great upgrades? Other than the 2 defensive upgrades they have crap.
The ultra turbo booster isnt great, moving flat out is usually enough to get you where you are going
It's an ability to make only basic guns twinlinked, which isn't that great.
The ram lets you tank shock, which a chimera can already do as it is a tank.
The chimera also vehicle upgrades. Camo nets are ok, more weapons are at least an option.

 Ailaros wrote:

- are an assault vehicle
- come with 10 fire ports

Getting the 10 fireports and assault vehicle comes at the cost of +1 damage result on a penetrating hit, which is pretty common on AV10
10 fireports isn't great when what is being transported isn't all that awesome. Trueborn can take a lot of weapons, but they cost a ton. Otherwise you get 1 special and 1 heavy if anything. 2 fire points would be great. DE have no ultra cheap BS4 troop choice than can tote around 3 special weapons.
Whats more, the chimera can split fire with its lasgun array and the special weapons shooting out the hatch. DE either waste the splinters on tanks or waste the blasters on infantry, unless they are shooting at an MC.
Assault vehicle isnt that great if the assault units coming out of it aren't that great either.

Sure, a skimmer will have a harder time getting a cover save from one class of terrain. But it's not impossible, and that's not the only class of terrain.

I mean, if we were talking about fliers, which need lvl 3 ruins or equivalent to get cover saves, then that would be a different matter, as they don't get cover from anything except one type of terrain, rather than getting cover from everything except sometimes one type.

Is it a drawback? Yes, but it doesn't justify skimmers getting cover saves everywhere for free.

Exergy wrote:A 5++ is much better than 5+ cover, with all the ignores cover out there and the 5++ works in assault

With the exception of tau, few weapons have ignores cover. Against a vast majority of shooting attacks, they're the same.

And it is better against close combat, that is definitely true. I'd like to see the person who lets their 30" moving skimmer get stuck in a close combat that they care about, though.

Exergy wrote:They come with a Dark Lance instead of a Multilaser AND a heavy bolter. 6 shots to 1. The chimera also has the option to take other weapons, autocannons, dual heavy bolter, heavy flamers.

Yes, FORGEWORLD has expansion options, but if we're going there, then we can talk about forgeworld options for DE as well.

And really? 6 vs. 1?

I'll trade you 6 lasgun shots for one vortex grenade. Oh, actually, that's way unfair. I should get six vortex grenades. Per turn.

That's better.

Exergy wrote:What great upgrades?

All those ones that you're just completely dismissing as irrelevant because it would hurt the argument that raiders are good.

You know, the one that lets the transport mini-vector strike, or allows a transport to move infantry up to 42" in a single turn, or that shreds units trying to assault it, or passes out leadership buffs to nearby units, or the one that hurts enemy leadership, or lets the transport deepstrike or give the dudes inside guaranteed prescience.

But I'm sure there are plenty of non-skimmers that have access to stuff like that instead of being stuck with dozer blades and smoke launchers.

Exergy wrote:10 fireports isn't great when what is being transported isn't all that awesome.

You have got to be kidding.

Let's take imperial guard veterans and give them extra special weapons and the ability to shoot all of them instead of just 2. Or haywire grenade spam. Or small arms that can bring down a wraithknight.

You'd have to be pretty myopic to think that DE raiders are bad because the rest of DE are.

Plus, really, if everything you said were true, it's JINK that somehow fixes all of these problems?

 Ailaros wrote:

Exergy wrote:What great upgrades?

All those ones that you're just completely dismissing as irrelevant because it would hurt the argument that raiders are good.

You know, the one that lets the transport mini-vector strike, or allows a transport to move infantry up to 42" in a single turn, or that shreds units trying to assault it, or passes out leadership buffs to nearby units, or the one that hurts enemy leadership, or lets the transport deepstrike or give the dudes inside guaranteed prescience.

"mini vector strike," only when moving fast, only against infantry, and wont kill a SWS
"42" in a single turn," the board is how big? You cannot disembark, so you are going to need the move next turn. So it's 44-54" in 2 turns, rather than the normal 42" in two turns without the upgrade.
"shreds units that assault it," will do nothing against any unit that actually wants to assault it. I dont see too many 50 man guard blobs assaulting my raiders.
-1 enemy leadership is situational, if you like having your AV10 open topped vehicles within rapid fire and charge range of the enemy.
reroll leadership tests is also somewhat useful, but after your vehicle blows up, it cant help you from being pinned.
Deepstriking a large vehicle with uncontrolled scatter is unlikely to be better than moving in from the table edge 30".
"Guaranteed prescience" on their basic guns only. 10 warriors, 1 splinter cannon, 1 blaster, 8 rifles left. BS 4 you normally get 5.3 hits. With splinter racks you get 7.1. 10 points to get 1.8 more hits, double if rapid firing. Unless you are moving, in which case it doubles your firepower, but being snapshots you aren't talking about much.

A lot of these vehicle upgrades might be useful on different vehicles, but aren't of much use on a raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Exergy wrote:10 fireports isn't great when what is being transported isn't all that awesome.

You have got to be kidding.

Let's take imperial guard veterans and give them extra special weapons and the ability to shoot all of them instead of just 2. Or haywire grenade spam. Or small arms that can bring down a wraithknight.

Haywire grenade spam? you can only ever throw one grenade, so it matters not how many fireports you have. 10 wyches, all with haywire grenades can indeed kill most tanks in the game, but they cost 120 points and require to be in BTB with said tank to destroy it. on a unit with few other uses, i guess it works.
Small arms that can down a wraithknight. Perhaps hurt a wraithknight. It takes a lot of small arms to down a wraithknight. 54 splinter shots. Rather easy for the heavy weapons, that are packing 6 shots each, but difficult for the pistols and rifles, which come on bodies much more expensive than vets.

 Ailaros wrote:

Xerics wrote:Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports.

Yes, and a chimera with...

Relic plating
Dozer blade
stubber
recovery gear
extra armor
fire barrels
HK missile
camo netting
augur array

... costs 153 points. So what? Does that mean chimeras are grossly overcosted just because you can make them really expensive by piling on upgrades? Voluntary upgrades? That also make the vehicle better?

Co'tor Shas wrote:How about we ignore wave serpents for this conversation?

Not that we should have to, but fine.

Let's talk raiders. They're a little cheaper than a chimera, and sure, they are definitely flimsier when you shoot them in the front arc (though the same from the rear and sides). Except that raiders...

- are an assault vehicle

- come with 10 fire ports

- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)

- are BS4

- ignore night fighting

- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter

- can pass through friendly and even enemy units

- can pass through impassable terrain, and even end their movement in it

- can completely avoid making dangerous terrain tests

- can dodge ramming attempts

- can transport their cargo 30" in a single turn (or farther with aethersails).

- can move 12" and still fire their anti-tank weapon at full BS4.

... and then you're going to tell me that on top of all of these other advantages, a person should be able to bump the table, and that's enough for them to get a 5+ cover save regardless of where they are on the board, even though a 5++, which is nearly the same, costs 10 points?

Skimmers makes a transport much stronger, as it allows the vehicle to be a transport better than non-skimmer vehicles. Making a transport into a fast skimmer makes them crazy better. Of course, the next step up is making a transport a flier, which is just dumb, but that's a different story.

Anyways, skimmers, especially fast ones are underpriced for what they give the player, even if you completely discarded jink. But that's not even what we're talking about, we're talking about still keeping jink, just making it require a little bit of meaningful player decision, rather than a free "that shot just didn't work" button.

Ok so if you want to go max points bull then here you go.

Wave Serpent
Scatter laser
Shuriken Cannon upgrade
Holo Fields
Ghostwalk Matrix
Spirit Stones
Star Engines
Vectored Engines
Crystal targeting Matrix

220 points


I only listed the things that were commonly used Not every upgrade available.


Inappropriate text removed. --yakface

Dude, Xerics, over the line.

Its nothing many other haven't already said about him in various other threads I have read.

And Ailaros, I think you're wrong. Sorry, but the Raider is not the god-machine you seem to imply.

I'm not being ornery, but have you ever actually played with one? With the exception of Night Shields, Splinter Racks (sometimes), Retrofire Jets (sometimes), and Flicker Fields (again, sometimes), the upgrades aren't that good. In fact, they're pretty useless the majority of the time. Even Retrofire Jets are pretty worthless in most cases. I only include them because I have a grossly over-developed love for Deep Strike.

The Raider gets absolutely shredded by small arms fire, which a Chimera can largely ignore in the early game. The difference between a front armor of 12 and one of 10 is gigantic. Simply huge.

In addition, I don't think it gives a clear picture to compare vehicles to one another when the armies they come from are so different. An IG army doesn't benefit hugely from having an Assault Vehicle for its troops (or for the majority of the army, really), so it's a little disingenuous to act like it's such a huge discrepancy. Meanwhile, the lack of being open-topped provides far more benefits to the Guardsmen than negatives. (Like, not getting exploded as often, for instance.)

The chimera is actually one of the better transports available. (I'd trade my Rhinos out of the SM codex for them in a heartbeat.)

I think the reduction to 5+ was all the take-down the Jink rule needed. Anything else is excessively punitive to everyone who uses Jink.

That being said, if this wild rumor actually IS true, I predict that Flicker Fields become THE must-have summer fashion accessory for the Archon on the go!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
Its nothing many other haven't already said about him in various other threads I have read.

Still a violation of the dakka terms of use.

Just because other people throw garbage in the street doesn't make throwing garbage in the street an acceptable activity. Personal attacks of that variety are verbal garbage in Dakka's streets. They make people who visit not want to hang around, and they make people who DO live here think about looking for a neighborhood with a better class of people. I too disagree strongly with users from time to time, but please don't litter.

The difference between a front armor of 12 and one of 10 is gigantic. Simply huge.

Yet another reason why Serpenets are OP - AV 12 front AND sides

If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

 Xerics wrote:
If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

What has any of the fluff got to do with if it is a balanced unit - as a very very few player argue or an OP super durable gunship as pretty much everyone else thinks

If you are going to argue via the fluff - why is the "weapon of last resort" a 60" range uber gun that can be used very turn?

 Ailaros wrote:
Personally, I'd rather they bring back 4th ed's "the model must end its movement phase at least so far from where it started" restriction. It's been two editions now that a skimmer can basically just shimmy in place, but LOOK HOW HARD THEY ARE TO SHOOT!!!

The move or shoot mechanic would be somewhat less ideal, but it would be nice to give them something that made jinking a decision rather than a just-because free save.

Hey my hammerhead has some mad maneuvers, who says the 1 inch movement is not enough to matrix doge incoming fire.
Jokes aside this is scary for my armies. Looking forward to having the rules in my hand now.

 R3YNO wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Personally, I'd rather they bring back 4th ed's "the model must end its movement phase at least so far from where it started" restriction. It's been two editions now that a skimmer can basically just shimmy in place, but LOOK HOW HARD THEY ARE TO SHOOT!!!

The move or shoot mechanic would be somewhat less ideal, but it would be nice to give them something that made jinking a decision rather than a just-because free save.

Hey my hammerhead has some mad maneuvers, who says the 1 inch movement is not enough to matrix doge incoming fire.
Jokes aside this is scary for my armies. Looking forward to having the rules in my hand now.

I like that they can weave back and forth, ending near their starting point, and still get the Jink. Personally, I thought the justification of a Jink save was supposed to be agility more than speed (the raw speed component is reflected in the bonus for going faster). I think that a return to the older system wouldn't make much sense. However, turbo-boosting or flat-out movements I could see having to be straight-line, minimum distance affairs. That would make sense.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

What has any of the fluff got to do with if it is a balanced unit - as a very very few player argue or an OP super durable gunship as pretty much everyone else thinks

If you are going to argue via the fluff - why is the "weapon of last resort" a 60" range uber gun that can be used very turn?

For the shield I'm not arguing for that. I personally went "WTF" when i first read it in my codex.

 Xerics wrote:
If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

you're defending the waveserpent like you made it, we understand what your trying to get across. you love the ws the way it is, and want nothing about it to change. in your view it's perfectly fluffy and balanced. but the guy across the table knows it's op for it's points cost, it needs to be changed. what it does versus what it costs are extremely out of ratio.

Please read the post right above yours.

All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

Bike armies in general are probably going to start seeing some more dust. (Again, if it's true.)

 Xerics wrote:
Please read the post right above yours.

i see that, and i agree i did the same thing.

off topic question, you in the AF? i lived in rapid city a few years
when i was in. cool town, too cold for me though lol.

 Xerics wrote:


Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports. Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't. If the shield gets discharged then you go for that penetrating hit to blow it up as they don't have the 2+ reduce pen to glance effect when shield has been used as a weapon. I don't know how much a chimera costs but I feel like getting a "free" jink save for how many points it costs for our only transport (meaning we have to buy another unit to even have access) is acceptable.

What changed?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

They will be toned down certainly. DA still have the PFG however, so it won't be the end of the world. I think bike armies did need a slight nerf. Will this be too far? I'm not sure.

Will this cause a rise in the number of players using Iron Hands bikes? The white scars jink advantage won't have as much impact, but bikes almost always get their FNP save.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

They will be toned down certainly. DA still have the PFG however, so it won't be the end of the world. I think bike armies did need a slight nerf. Will this be too far? I'm not sure.

Will this cause a rise in the number of players using Iron Hands bikes? The white scars jink advantage won't have as much impact, but bikes almost always get their FNP save.

WS get hit & run too which is arguably just as good (or better if you build you army to support it).

 Xerics wrote:
. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

Just so you know, this has no basis in the rules. Perhaps you should reread the deployment rules?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

They will be toned down certainly. DA still have the PFG however, so it won't be the end of the world. I think bike armies did need a slight nerf. Will this be too far? I'm not sure.

Will this cause a rise in the number of players using Iron Hands bikes? The white scars jink advantage won't have as much impact, but bikes almost always get their FNP save.

WS get hit & run too which is arguably just as good (or better if you build you army to support it).

No argument about this from me. WS chapter tactics and Khan still have definite advantages.

Jimsolo wrote:I like that they can weave back and forth, ending near their starting point, and still get the Jink.

Sure, but then it would only make sense to reduce their shooting to snap firing. For most things, especially in the world of 40k, where everyone uses iron sights, making yourself harder to hit means making it harder to hit something else yourself.

Jimsolo wrote:And Ailaros, I think you're wrong. Sorry, but the Raider is not the god-machine you seem to imply.

The difference between a front armor of 12 and one of 10 is gigantic. Simply huge.

Oh yeah, they've got flimsy front armor, no doubt about it, and my point wasn't that they're the best transport in the entire game.

The point is more that it's really easy for people to see their own stuff as crappy because they see it killed all the time, and often don't need to attempt to return the favor (especially DE, how often does a DE player play against another DE player, especially relative to, say, space marines).

It is really easy to get sucked into their one main problem and cause you to overlook the many, many benefits. It's easy to see "I don't use" as "not very good" and "hasn't worked for me yet" as "is unworkable".

Really, if anything, it's the other way around. Spend some time with a slow, treaded vehicle that doesn't get all the stuff raiders do. You'd enjoy the likely better armor, but you would immediately miss everything else. There's a reason you see roughly 0 rhino SM armies while practically all DE players pack in raiders and practically all eldar players rush to wave serpent spam. Fast skimmer transports are really good.

I mean, do a gut check. Would you take rhinos in your DE army? They have better armor, after all, and they lose the extra flimsiness of open topped, and they're even much cheaper than a raider to boot. Would you really take rhinos over venoms?

... no. Because raiders are great, and venoms are also pretty good, and rhinos are just awful, despite being more durable.

Jimsolo wrote:An IG army doesn't benefit hugely from having an Assault Vehicle for its troops (or for the majority of the army, really), so it's a little disingenuous to act like it's such a huge discrepancy.

If I could put bullgryn in a raider, oh you better believe that I would in a heartbeat. Well, and they didn't just downgrade to "extra bulky"

If anything, though, it cuts the other direction too. Being an assault vehicle is extra good for DE because they DO have lots of good CC options.

Jimsolo wrote:The chimera is actually one of the better transports available. (I'd trade my Rhinos out of the SM codex for them in a heartbeat.)

Yeah, a chimera is a fine transport. It's certainly not the flimsiest transport, but neither is it most survivable, and it's tied for the slowest transport in the game, and that AV12 sits right next to that 10/10. Its reasonably cheap, but it also lacks in firepower, being stuck with only anti-infantry weapons with no upgrade options to lance weapons/melta/etc. Its upgrades are cheap, but they're also pretty crappy (as in, you pay points to very poorly emulate some of the things skimmers can already do). And there are a couple of cute special rules, like amphibious and command aura.

They're fine, but they're not exactly extra awesome. All they do is provide some cover for some very squishy models, but that's sort of it. Nothing special.

Of course I would upgrade from rhinos to chimeras in a heartbeat as well, but that's not because chimeras are awesomesauce so much as rhinos are so extremely, excessively, awfully terrible that I wouldn't even take them if they were free. Just because a rhino is bad, though, doesn't elevate chimeras up to the level of drop pods or land raiders or wave serpents.

Jimsolo wrote:Bike armies in general are probably going to start seeing some more dust. (Again, if it's true.)

Yeah, I'm still thinking about bikes on this one. They'll be hurt, of course, but I don't know if they're going to become unplayably awful. I mean, bikes still have a lot of other advantages other than jink.

Yeah, I'm still thinking about bikes on this one. They'll be hurt, of course, but I don't know if they're going to become unplayably awful. I mean, bikes still have a lot of other advantages other than jink.

I agree. I play bike armies, and I wouldn't mind losing jink, as they are slightly too good at the moment.

At the same time however, I hope they will attempt to bring the other powerful armies into line. I don't want the bikes to become shelved.

 Ailaros wrote:
The point is more that it's really easy for people to see their own stuff as crappy because they see it killed all the time, and often don't need to attempt to return the favor (especially DE, how often does a DE player play against another DE player, especially relative to, say, space marines).

It is really easy to get sucked into their one main problem and cause you to overlook the many, many benefits. It's easy to see "I don't use" as "not very good" and "hasn't worked for me yet" as "is unworkable".

Really, if anything, it's the other way around. Spend some time with a slow, treaded vehicle that doesn't get all the stuff raiders do. You'd enjoy the likely better armor, but you would immediately miss everything else. There's a reason you see roughly 0 rhino SM armies while practically all DE players pack in raiders and practically all eldar players rush to wave serpent spam. Fast skimmer transports are really good.

I mean, do a gut check. Would you take rhinos in your DE army? They have better armor, after all, and they lose the extra flimsiness of open topped, and they're even much cheaper than a raider to boot. Would you really take rhinos over venoms?

... no. Because raiders are great, and venoms are also pretty good, and rhinos are just awful, despite being more durable.

Okay, I can definitely see your point on that one. I have had a limited experience with Chimeras, and wasn't impressed with them. (In point of fact, my Henchmen no longer use them, in favor of just hunkering down behind some cover.)

However, I think that the Imperial Guard get more use out of the limited fire points on a Chimera than the DE do on the open-topped nature of the Raider. (Venoms, on the other hand, see small Trueborn squads used to great effect with that rule. But that's about it.)

Jimsolo wrote:An IG army doesn't benefit hugely from having an Assault Vehicle for its troops (or for the majority of the army, really), so it's a little disingenuous to act like it's such a huge discrepancy.

If I could put bullgryn in a raider, oh you better believe that I would in a heartbeat. Well, and they didn't just downgrade to "extra bulky"

If anything, though, it cuts the other direction too. Being an assault vehicle is extra good for DE because they DO have lots of good CC options.

Two? Two-and-a-half? I count Incubi, Grotesques, and maybe Wracks. And the conventional tactical manual on Wracks only views assault as something to do with them once you can no longer run around Liquifier Gunning everyone. Obviously not counting the CC units that can't take a Raider. (Hellions, MCs, etc.)

And while I'm sure you would put Bullgryn in a raider, which would you rather have for your IG veteran troopers? It seems like the Chimera would be the better choice to me...

Jimsolo wrote:The chimera is actually one of the better transports available. (I'd trade my Rhinos out of the SM codex for them in a heartbeat.)

Yeah, a chimera is a fine transport. It's certainly not the flimsiest transport, but neither is it most survivable, and it's tied for the slowest transport in the game, and that AV12 sits right next to that 10/10. Its reasonably cheap, but it also lacks in firepower, being stuck with only anti-infantry weapons with no upgrade options to lance weapons/melta/etc. Its upgrades are cheap, but they're also pretty crappy (as in, you pay points to very poorly emulate some of the things skimmers can already do). And there are a couple of cute special rules, like amphibious and command aura.

I'm not saying the Raider is bad (that's ludicrous) but it's got its downsides too. No anti-infantry weapons, for one. When it comes to anti-infantry firepower, I'm pretty sure a squad of troops plus their chimera is putting out a fierce amount of dakka. I don't do intense mathhammer, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the IG slightly ahead for the points. I certainly don't think there's enough of a discrepancy to justify nerfing the Raider so hard that the crew will (essentially) never again fire anything but Snap Shots.

They're fine, but they're not exactly extra awesome. All they do is provide some cover for some very squishy models, but that's sort of it. Nothing special.

Of course I would upgrade from rhinos to chimeras in a heartbeat as well, but that's not because chimeras are awesomesauce so much as rhinos are so extremely, excessively, awfully terrible that I wouldn't even take them if they were free. Just because a rhino is bad, though, doesn't elevate chimeras up to the level of drop pods or land raiders or wave serpents.

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Despite both being Dedicated Transports, Drop Pods are so utterly different that any comparison is going to break down when you throw them in the mix. And of course Chimeras don't measure up to Land Raiders. (Neither do skimmer Raiders!) The Land Raider costs over four times as much! And as has already been established, the Wave Serpent is overpowered by admission. If the problem really comes down to the Wave Serpent being overpowered (and it does, in my opinion) then it doesn't make any sense to take the nerf-bat to every army that uses Jink just to fix one broken vehicle.

Jimsolo wrote:Bike armies in general are probably going to start seeing some more dust. (Again, if it's true.)

Yeah, I'm still thinking about bikes on this one. They'll be hurt, of course, but I don't know if they're going to become unplayably awful. I mean, bikes still have a lot of other advantages other than jink.

Yeah, but I think putting the Snap Shot whammy on them (or taking Jink away) would severely impact their utility, and they weren't far-and-away the best choices as they were.

Jimsolo wrote:However, I think that the Imperial Guard get more use out of the limited fire points on a Chimera than the DE do on the open-topped nature of the Raider.

How is two better than ten?

Jimsolo wrote:which would you rather have for your IG veteran troopers? It seems like the Chimera would be the better choice to me...

Honestly, I'd take the raider.

Being able to shoot all three plasma guns, plasma pistol and lascannon out the top at the same time would be good, and the defensive nature of vet special weapons would be greatly improved by a fast skimmer. I'd change tactics a bit, of course, starting them in reserves, but it would still be better.

Plus, being able to deepstrike a vet squad? Yes, please.

Jimsolo wrote:No anti-infantry weapons, for one.

Yeah, but a pair of heavy bolters isn't exactly good anti-infantry. Plus, a raider full of warriors is going to be MUCH better against infantry targets (especially with splinter racks) than a chimera full of veterans.

Plus, anti-infantry is hardly something that either army lacks. You don't really need that much more.

Once again, do a gut check. Let's say you could swap out the dark lance for a twin-linked splinter cannon on a raider. Would you do it? Probably not.

Jimsolo wrote:The Land Raider costs over four times as much!

Yeah, but I was accounting for that. Land raiders are awesome, even at their big price tag.

Jimsolo wrote:. If the problem really comes down to the Wave Serpent being overpowered (and it does, in my opinion)

Well, and that's my point. It's not just wave serpents. All fast skimmer transports are of outsized utility for their cost.

Because of that huge pile of stuff that they get from being both skimmers and fast.

You can build strong lists out of spamming wave serpents and raiders. Meanwhile, razorbacks and chimeras are vehicles that you bring as few of as you can get away with while spending the rest of your points on better stuff. I don't think I've ever seen a list that was just infantry units and chimeras, or just infantry units and rhinos.

Jimsolo wrote:Yeah, but I think putting the Snap Shot whammy on them (or taking Jink away) would severely impact their utility

... when they'd be jinking.

Bikes are fast enough to be able to dart from cover to cover. Jink only helps curb some of the damage when you drive your bikes straight at your opponent out in the open. That's not the only way to use bikes.

 Ailaros wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:However, I think that the Imperial Guard get more use out of the limited fire points on a Chimera than the DE do on the open-topped nature of the Raider.

How is two better than ten?

The IG troops units have access to better weapons than their Dark Eldar equivalents. One big nasty, assuming we didn't bring an HQ. The IG vets, on the other hand, can take 3 plasma guns, not to mention a heavy weapon and a special pistol on the sergeant.

And that's not even counting the (four? six?) side mounted lasgun turret/port things that chimeras have. And didn't those bad boys essentially get split fire for free now? Forgive me, haven't read the new 'dex.

Jimsolo wrote:which would you rather have for your IG veteran troopers? It seems like the Chimera would be the better choice to me...

Honestly, I'd take the raider.

Being able to shoot all three plasma guns, plasma pistol and lascannon out the top at the same time would be good, and the defensive nature of vet special weapons would be greatly improved by a fast skimmer. I'd change tactics a bit, of course, starting them in reserves, but it would still be better.

Plus, being able to deepstrike a vet squad? Yes, please.

Do you play Dark Eldar? If so, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If not, I think you might be on the reverse side of the 'greener pastures' coin you were talking about earlier.

Jimsolo wrote:No anti-infantry weapons, for one.

Yeah, but a pair of heavy bolters isn't exactly good anti-infantry. Plus, a raider full of warriors is going to be MUCH better against infantry targets (especially with splinter racks) than a chimera full of veterans.

Plus, anti-infantry is hardly something that either army lacks. You don't really need that much more.

No, but it still has to be included, and letting the basic troops choices do the heavy lifting on the anti-infantry front seems like a wise idea to me. And while a single heavy bolter may not be ideal, a heavy bolter AND a multilaser on a 12 man tank for 55 points is pretty sweet. (Again, feel free to correct me for edition changes.)

Once again, do a gut check. Let's say you could swap out the dark lance for a twin-linked splinter cannon on a raider. Would you do it? Probably not.

Hell no. Because the Dark Eldar have a shortage of anti-vehicle whatnots. The Guard, on the other hand, are almost never caught without either melta-happy veterans (or special weapon teams) -- usually in chimeras -- or the army's signature piece, the Leman Russ. Between their tank squadrons and their artillery squadrons, the Guard can shred vehicles like they were toilet paper. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, struggle to make up that ground

Jimsolo wrote:The Land Raider costs over four times as much!

Yeah, but I was accounting for that. Land raiders are awesome, even at their big price tag.

Hell yeah they are! (I wish I had a Space Marine player here to high-five. )

Jimsolo wrote:. If the problem really comes down to the Wave Serpent being overpowered (and it does, in my opinion)

Well, and that's my point. It's not just wave serpents. All fast skimmer transports are of outsized utility for their cost.

Because of that huge pile of stuff that they get from being both skimmers and fast.

You can build strong lists out of spamming wave serpents and raiders. Meanwhile, razorbacks and chimeras are vehicles that you bring as few of as you can get away with while spending the rest of your points on better stuff. I don't think I've ever seen a list that was just infantry units and chimeras, or just infantry units and rhinos.

Except I have seen rhino spam. And lost to it as a Dark Eldar player, in fact. (Not saying the rhinos were responsible--don't get that impression! It was the first time I'd played a mechanized list with my elves and I didn't have the experience to pull out a victory.) And razorspam is CERTAINLY still alive and well. In point of fact, with the changes to Combat Squads, I'd be shocked if we don't start seeing more rhinos creeping back into competitive play before the Space Marine codex has run its course.

I've also seen lists that were nothing but infantry and chimeras. I've also lost to one of those. (I was playing a gimmick list, though, so once again I'm not going to try and call that an actual tactical experience.) I see that sort of list (all infantry in chimeras or almost all of it composed of that) frequently from a couple of my opponents, actually, and while I've never lost to them, I've never lost a real game to ANY Imperial Guard list.

Jimsolo wrote:Yeah, but I think putting the Snap Shot whammy on them (or taking Jink away) would severely impact their utility

... when they'd be jinking.

Bikes are fast enough to be able to dart from cover to cover. Jink only helps curb some of the damage when you drive your bikes straight at your opponent out in the open. That's not the only way to use bikes.

This is one of those difference in experiences things, I guess. We have four players here who play bike armies of one type or another, and if there's a unifying experience I took away from my years of playing with them, it's that bikes used as mobile shooting platforms tend to do two things extraordinarily well: suck and die. The most effective strategy I've seen them used for has been a blitz rush, using their greater speed (and cover save) to get them up close to overwhelm the enemy before they knew what was happening. Guns are just there to soften the melee targets up before the lightning (or power) claws/klaws get there. Or to pot away at targets the bikes can't hurt in CC.

But If BA pay 30-40pts per vehicle for FAST. Then surely a FAST SKIMMER should come in at at least +50-60pts. That's if we assume game balance of course and everybody pays the same for the same advantages amd upgrades, if not, then a skimmer such as the serp is automatically undercosted in comparison.
So if we take fast skimmer off say, a serp, it becomes 85pts for an av12 side and front, trans cap10, high rof, good strength, serp shield benefits, holofields, shuri cannon. Only 20pts more than a naked chimera for all those benefits.

Rumor I heard is jink is improved to 4+, but snap fire only after jinking.

That's not going to effext gjb/windriders. They tend to hide out of los until they perform a last minute objective snatch. If anything the 4+ is better.

Would you seriously hide two of your most versatile and mobile combat squads of - say 2* 6 jetbikes with two cannons - until the end of the battle? The jink changes 1. are a massive nerf for all bikers and it hits DE the most and 2. fuel the playstyle you mentioned way further.

Well, they do need a nerf compared to 'normal' infantry and jumppacks.

Suite wrote:
Would you seriously hide two of your most versatile and mobile combat squads of - say 2* 6 jetbikes with two cannons - until the end of the battle? The jink changes 1. are a massive nerf for all bikers and it hits DE the most and 2. fuel the playstyle you mentioned way further.

Not a single thing in this statement makes sense. People don't use 6 man Jetbike units with Cannons (not that they are terrible units by any means), you run 3 man units, hide them in reserve and zoom to objectives late. For them the 4+ cover is a buff since they don't care about shooting.

For Marine Bike lists I don't think its a huge issue, the double Chapter Masters tanking at the front don't need cover and T5 and 3+ saves keep you pretty safe from small arms. The main reason the top bike lists are so strong (and by that I mean White Scars) is because they can be played very aggressively, pushing straight into assault turn 2ish (where snapping doesn't matter) and then completely control the game because they have Hit and Run (which if you had to pick a single special rule is definitely their biggest advantage).

Dark Eldar get hit the least by this by far. Their skimmers can all get 5+ invulnerables anyway (which were already a good idea with the amount of Ignores Cover around) and its a buff for their Jetbikes because they don't shoot people anyway, you can now zoom around and do slash attacks and you might actually live afterwards.

I agree that this is a nerf to Serpents, but its not the nerf they needed. While it does make them easier to kill most of the time it does mean that if they are in survival mode they are basically untouchable - a 3+ cover save and ignoring pens on a 2+, so if people adapt and use them differently (i.e more as transports rather than as gunboats) they will still do fine. Serpents are interesting because imo they aren't as overpowered as people make them out. The Shield weapon is the only thing that makes them broken, for example if you dropped the Shield down to range 6" then to me they would be slightly overpriced - they would have battle tank price tags but without the firepower to back it up.

Screamers are also better. They never shoot so they basicly have a 4+ cover at all times now.

Powerguy wrote:
I agree that this is a nerf to Serpents,

Is it, though? If snap fire turns out to be -2BS as it is rumoured to be, I'd say the trade-off is a pretty decent one (from the Serpent player's perspective).

3+ jink saves for holofield serpents?

Like my wife's serpents needed to be harder to kill.

 Kain wrote:
3+ jink saves for holofield serpents?

Like my wife's serpents needed to be harder to kill.

with a possible 2+ if you flat out(?) or have the stealth warlord trait.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
3+ jink saves for holofield serpents?

Like my wife's serpents needed to be harder to kill.

with a possible 2+ if you flat out(?) or have the stealth warlord trait.

Gonna need more hive guard.

TL tesla weapons are not going to be hurt much shooting at bs2 from a jink. Annihilation barges would actually be in better shape with a 4+ jink that drops them to bs2, and the same goes for night scythes.

i imagine tau skimmers are gonna be hurting from this.

I'll probably still field the Skyray, probably wont even think about it when i bring a Hammerhead, but my piranhas are probably done for as their 12" speed being able to get them into shooting range as well as cock-block a unit from assaulting me is the main reason i bring them (bonus drone squad too)

Well, I never saw anywhere else anything about this, but IF this is true...

God I hope the disruption pod gets changed or tau armor turns really unplayable.
The devil is bad enough as it is, the piranha has nothing BUT cheap skimmer status for it (jinx included), the the skyrays and hammerheads rely on the defensive power of Dpod+jinx to live...
If I have to effectivly sacrifice shooting for jinxing, my tanks would turn from heavy-duty lifters (in form of a hard to remove threats) into cowardly glass cannons, where every shot aimed at them disables them for the next turn even if it didn't connect, and considering I run 2-3 hammers, it will spell doom for my army, and only push tau further to the clutches of the boring broadside gunlines...

My thoughts exactly.

Piranhas are easily the best vehicle of its type, since they technically cost 16pts for an AV11/10/10 fast skimmer with just enough firepower to be a threat to troops, and durable enough for common infantry guns to be ineffective. This forces an assault, thus an extra turn for my own guys before getting assaulted, or forces big guns to clear them up....which my opponents will never want to do since i usually field a hammerhead and skyray as well.

Hammerhead/skyrays are only comparable to AV14 because of the 4+ jink. I really dont want to play hide-and-seek with a massive TANK because the reason it was good to bring got neutered thanks to another codex causing the nerf to the USR.

This is seriously going to hurt my use of Piranha's and maybe even Tetra's. I don't see it altering my use of Skyray's, I generally only bring 1 for AA work, and it usually hangs out in some ruins with a D-pod and sensor spines.

It's going to make me seriously rethink using Hammerheads, but it may make me bring in Devilfish again, I think they are overpriced for what they bring, but jinking with a D-pod may make them survivable enough to get a squad up to grab objectives.

 Sihdhartha wrote:
This is seriously going to hurt my use of Piranha's and maybe even Tetra's. I don't see it altering my use of Skyray's, I generally only bring 1 for AA work, and it usually hangs out in some ruins with a D-pod and sensor spines.

It's going to make me seriously rethink using Hammerheads, but it may make me bring in Devilfish again, I think they are overpriced for what they bring, but jinking with a D-pod may make them survivable enough to get a squad up to grab objectives.

GOD I DIDNT EVEN THINK ABOUT MY POOR TETRAS

I use Predators. AV13 with no jink.

Sup.

Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

Oh, I just got it.

This is why the hydra lost its ability to ignore jink saves, even though that was the biggest reason to take it.

Not because the hydra needed a nerf, but because they're changing the nature of jink.

Duh.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

It won't hurt Eldar that bad, they are still going to snap shoot at BS2, and it doesn't stop how stupidly survivable they are, if I were an Eldar player I would totally take the extra jink save to loose a little accuracy.

Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

 Sihdhartha wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

It won't hurt Eldar that bad, they are still going to snap shoot at BS2, and it doesn't stop how stupidly survivable they are, if I were an Eldar player I would totally take the extra jink save to loose a little accuracy.

No, Eldar will probably be fine. Dark Eldar are going to be F'ed in the A. Especially if, as I suspect, passengers on said vehicles will also have to abide by the Snap Shot restriction.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

And still twin linked if the scatter laser doesn't miss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrong quote! Referencing post above the quote.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

And still twin linked if the scatter laser doesn't miss.

Yea after my initial excitement I started to realize eldar have a bit more twin linking than most armies. So it kind of doesnt matter as much any more haha

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, I just got it.

This is why the hydra lost its ability to ignore jink saves, even though that was the biggest reason to take it.

Not because the hydra needed a nerf, but because they're changing the nature of jink.

Duh.

Conspiracy!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bs -2 is a severe loss to bs 3 models though compared to both bs2 or 4+

I'm gona be actually happy if jink changes like this. It's more logical. Cause as it was, a skimmer or bike moving 0.1 inches is SOOOO fast, it's harder to hit than a truckk that moved 24-25 inches. That sounds as stupid as an enormous monstrous creature getting cover for a toe in a bush. Oh wait...

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Sihdhartha wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

It won't hurt Eldar that bad, they are still going to snap shoot at BS2, and it doesn't stop how stupidly survivable they are, if I were an Eldar player I would totally take the extra jink save to loose a little accuracy.

No, Eldar will probably be fine. Dark Eldar are going to be F'ed in the A. Especially if, as I suspect, passengers on said vehicles will also have to abide by the Snap Shot restriction.

Aren't passengers already snap shooting if they move faster than 6"? Maybe I am used to the DE lists I am used to play in my very limited (5-player) meta, he usually has the whatever racks that allow twin linked for poison, if I can't kill the vehicle that can totally mess up my Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

It's better, but it's not a HUGE nerf, not as much as the 6th ED FnP hit DE


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Sihdhartha wrote:
This is seriously going to hurt my use of Piranha's and maybe even Tetra's. I don't see it altering my use of Skyray's, I generally only bring 1 for AA work, and it usually hangs out in some ruins with a D-pod and sensor spines.

It's going to make me seriously rethink using Hammerheads, but it may make me bring in Devilfish again, I think they are overpriced for what they bring, but jinking with a D-pod may make them survivable enough to get a squad up to grab objectives.

GOD I DIDNT EVEN THINK ABOUT MY POOR TETRAS

At least Tetra's ML's are twin-linked, it's a nerf yes, but not a massive one, I still foresee running a squad of four to compliment my Marker'O and his drone, I mean what's my other recourse? Run Pathfinders for ML? I hate Pathfinders, they are not mobile, die too easily and need too many models to get an effective # of ML on target.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I use Predators. AV13 with no jink.

Sup.

At 66% the price and more guns.

 Sihdhartha wrote:

Aren't passengers already snap shooting if they move faster than 6"? Maybe I am used to the DE lists I am used to play in my very limited (5-player) meta, he usually has the whatever racks that allow twin linked for poison, if I can't kill the vehicle that can totally mess up my Tau.

Yes, but the supposed rumor is that Jinking at all will force you down to Snap Shots.

Let us all join together and weep for the poor hard done by Wave Serpent spammers - they might not be quite as OP (*) in the new edition - life is so cruel to them, surely someone can help them survive..

(*) although it does not seem to be that way

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Sihdhartha wrote:

Aren't passengers already snap shooting if they move faster than 6"? Maybe I am used to the DE lists I am used to play in my very limited (5-player) meta, he usually has the whatever racks that allow twin linked for poison, if I can't kill the vehicle that can totally mess up my Tau.

Yes, but the supposed rumor is that Jinking at all will force you down to Snap Shots.

I haven't seen much of sitting there moving 1" to get a jink from DE, mainly from my Tau Hammerheads LOL, on a serious note this will effect how (or if) I deploy Hammerheads, Piranha's or Tetra's but don't see it really making a huge impact on Eldar Or DE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Let us all join together and weep for the poor hard done by Wave Serpent spammers - they might not be quite as OP (*) in the new edition - life is so cruel to them, surely someone can help them survive..

(*) although it does not seem to be that way

They are still very (if not more) survivable, just won't be quite as much of a main battle tank.... it may be a nerf, but it's not that big of one on a unit that probably needed to be hit with a slightly bigger bat

Powerguy wrote:

Suite wrote:
Would you seriously hide two of your most versatile and mobile combat squads of - say 2* 6 jetbikes with two cannons - until the end of the battle? The jink changes 1. are a massive nerf for all bikers and it hits DE the most and 2. fuel the playstyle you mentioned way further.

Not a single thing in this statement makes sense. People don't use 6 man Jetbike units with Cannons (not that they are terrible units by any means), you run 3 man units, hide them in reserve and zoom to objectives late. For them the 4+ cover is a buff since they don't care about shooting.

For Marine Bike lists I don't think its a huge issue, the double Chapter Masters tanking at the front don't need cover and T5 and 3+ saves keep you pretty safe from small arms. The main reason the top bike lists are so strong (and by that I mean White Scars) is because they can be played very aggressively, pushing straight into assault turn 2ish (where snapping doesn't matter) and then completely control the game because they have Hit and Run (which if you had to pick a single special rule is definitely their biggest advantage).

Dark Eldar get hit the least by this by far. Their skimmers can all get 5+ invulnerables anyway (which were already a good idea with the amount of Ignores Cover around) and its a buff for their Jetbikes because they don't shoot people anyway, you can now zoom around and do slash attacks and you might actually live afterwards.

I agree that this is a nerf to Serpents, but its not the nerf they needed. While it does make them easier to kill most of the time it does mean that if they are in survival mode they are basically untouchable - a 3+ cover save and ignoring pens on a 2+, so if people adapt and use them differently (i.e more as transports rather than as gunboats) they will still do fine. Serpents are interesting because imo they aren't as overpowered as people make them out. The Shield weapon is the only thing that makes them broken, for example if you dropped the Shield down to range 6" then to me they would be slightly overpriced - they would have battle tank price tags but without the firepower to back it up.

Okay. First, you're being rude. Now lets go over the comments of yours.

1. People do use Jetbike squads of 6, even 9 is possible. Why? Because there are people out in the world who do not rely on Serpent spam and thus need strong units. What YOU or YOUR friends do doesn't give you the right to say, nobody would field them otherwise (it is in fact very common).

2. The problem is not the small arms fire for bikes but rather armor/cover-ignoring weaponry as the weapons in the game are evolving. If you are fielding White Scars, you can compensate for it by target overloading which is how "themed" armies always work and not just since shortly, moreover the close combat character of the Scars means you can almost always turboboost as you wish when you don't have -say - 24 inch weaponry on which you rely.

3. DE do get hit the most because their Jetbikes don't get any invulnerable save you're speaking of AND only have a 5+ armor save which means they're basically dead after performing one action if you choose not to zip around your own deployment zone. What are these slash attacks you are referring? So DE Jetbikes are now virtually forced to jink every turn and therefore abandoning a big part of their shooting power which still exists, regardless of what you say. No options to have is almost always worse than the other way ronud. About their skimmers, only the Venom has flickerfields stock, the other vehicles have to purchase it. A mandatory upgrade now which is bad.

4. Whom are your comments on Serpents addressed to? I didn't mention it in my post you quoted. But funnily you say that the Serpent is not overpowered (says Powerguy) but just broken due to their shield. You should have said "the shield mechanic is broken", not the Serpent itself.

The way I see it, cover saves should always be a trade off:
You get worse firing position, theres a chance you will immobilise yourself driving through area terrain, your opponent can reposition himself to deny you the cover

Jink:
You always get it, theres nothing your opponent can do to deprive you of it (excluding ignores cover).

I like the Jink mechanic on my vendettas, it's a choice, hmn 4 hits at S7... thats average 2 glances, maybe 1 pen... guess I'll risk it since I want to hover and jump my guys out this turn. Any time theres:
a) something your opponent can do to eliminate your bonus or,
b) something you have to make a descision about

I'm happy.

Suite wrote:


People do use Jetbike squads of 6, even 9 is possible. Why? Because there are people out in the world who do not rely on Serpent spam and thus need strong units. What YOU or YOUR friends do doesn't give you the right to say, nobody would field them otherwise (it is in fact very common).

So what. People used to run greentides, kan walls and truckrushes. Their entire lists got way worse than that. When you can still find something good in the changes - better jink if you reduce shooting effectiveness - those things i've listed gained nothing good. They just got plain worse. You've gotten a bit less cheezy and you start crying allready.

Where am I crying? Are you butthurt by some evil Eldar tabling you lately? What is your problem? Why are you quoting a comment of mine where I specifically answered somebody instead of making an isolated statement? What the heck do greentides have to do with jink?

you're overreacting

I'm just telling that it's perfectly normal that some things get worse with time. Find other units for this role or deal with what you have. New jink is not a plain nerf after all - it has it's obvious bright sides also. Not just a: "I'm alwayz in cover" thing.

I fail to see the problem here.

Should this be true you are still going to have the option to jink, how hard will that really curb eldar and dark eldar skimmer spammers?

Think back to 5th Ed. when they didn't get it at all...

Dark eldar still have invulnerables on vehicles for a small fee, eldar still have all their twin linked'ness and shielding.

If GW is trying to sort all this serpent spam with a rulebook fix then that's always going to be the wrong way to go about it, it's swing and roundabouts since it will affect all armies.

I am not sure f they are trying to sort out the inherient problems with Wave Serpents being OP - if so - its a asilly way to do it. It should be done with FAQs / Codex update but GW don't seem to do that these days.

To be honest, if they just forced you to move cruising speed as a vehicle or turbo-boost as a bike to get your Jink they'd have done what needed to be done to cut it back.

 phantommaster wrote:


Dark eldar still have invulnerables on vehicles for a small fee, eldar still have all their twin linked'ness and shielding.

It's 10 points, doesnt sound like much, but on 60 point vehicles that you are likely taking 6-7 of, it means 1 less vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

DE do get hit the most because their Jetbikes don't get any invulnerable save you're speaking of AND only have a 5+ armor save which means they're basically dead after performing one action if you choose not to zip around your own deployment zone. What are these slash attacks you are referring? So DE Jetbikes are now virtually forced to jink every turn and therefore abandoning a big part of their shooting power which still exists, regardless of what you say. No options to have is almost always worse than the other way ronud.

DE jetbikes can slash attack by moving flat out over a unit and doing damage to it. Their shooting power is pretty weak actually. It's usually slash slash slash, shoot + assault when the game is nearly over if they are somehow alive. Currently they have 5+ jink, 4+ skilled rider, 3+ moving flat out. If you can jink when you move flat out, and still use their slash attack they are likely fine, but depending on the eact wording it could:
a. make them slightly better
b. make them the exact same as they are now
c. totally ruin them to the point that no one ever takes them

DE players know to assume option c. every time GW changes the rules until you actually read the rulebook.

 Sihdhartha wrote:
At least Tetra's ML's are twin-linked, it's a nerf yes, but not a massive one, I still foresee running a squad of four to compliment my Marker'O and his drone, I mean what's my other recourse? Run Pathfinders for ML? I hate Pathfinders, they are not mobile, die too easily and need too many models to get an effective # of ML on target.

Now Sensor Spines became almost mandatory to Tau vehicles. Park your Tetras in cover and enjoy the russian rave

Sensor spines are great anyway. A hammerhead with d-pod in cover is really hard to kill.

Yea, it does look like sensor spines are indeed going to be mandatory.....

I don't think this change is going to hurt DE jetbikes at all, if anything it just boosted them 1 cover and if the rumor that says that ignores cover is only a -2 to cover is true also? I forsee a lot of bikes in DE lists.

The change in jink with just encourage Eldar WSs to move farther each turn as they have to snap anyway moving their contents around the board much faster.

And come on, it makes sense that jink would become the vehiclular equivalent of going to ground. Just like how flat-out was switched to work like infantry run rules.

And tau are going to be hurt by this? Really? How many tau mech lists are there? Even so, if only there were some way to increase the BS of someone who was snap-firing until it was back up to normal or even higher.

This will be something that will make tau just straight stronger, as they'll be able to milk the benefits while once again just ignoring penalties.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I use Predators. AV13 with no jink.

Sup.

At 66% the price and more guns.

Tell me more about how a naked predator stacks up to a naked Hammerhead. Oh, and the naked Hammerhead has more guns than a naked Predator.

Accurate comparison would be Tri-Las Predator (what I use) to Hammerhead with DPods, Submunitions (or Ionhead), and Sensor Spines. Ten point difference between the two, five if it's the ionhead, and I'd pick a Hammerhead every day for that difference.

Well, you can over-equip anything, preds are no different.

And preds are a rather poor unit to begin with, and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

Our tanks used to be cool and intresting. costed an arm and a leg, but were COOL.
After the jinks change? I'd probably settle for bare bones hammers, if any. there is just no reason to invest in it any more as it does nothing impressive-its no longer good at actually tanking shots, and the mandatory Dpod went into doing practically nothing of value.

Is anyone else happy about the Bike nerf?

No one?

 ductvader wrote:
Is anyone else happy about the Bike nerf?

I am.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, you can over-equip anything, preds are no different.

And preds are a rather poor unit to begin with, and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

Our tanks used to be cool and intresting. costed an arm and a leg, but were COOL.
After the jinks change? I'd probably settle for bare bones hammers, if any. there is just no reason to invest in it any more as it does nothing impressive-its no longer good at actually tanking shots, and the mandatory Dpod went into doing practically nothing of value.

I would still take them, even after the nerf. Because you have markerlights, or did you forget? Which, I know, are capable of boosting the BS of snapshots even now. That -2BS for new snapshots means you need two lights overrule it. Boohoo.

Or you don't take the jink save, and plop the hammerhead in a ruin with Dpod for a 3+ cover. I've done that before, it's fantastic. The gun so so high-mounted that LoS isn't even an issue for returning fire. Hell, Ionheads are dropping blasts half the time. Regardless of BS, those have a 1/3 chance to be a direct hit.

Tri-Las preds aren't overequipped, by the by. It's the only way to make the thing a reliable AV tool, and slightly off topic but maybe they won't be so flimsy with the new damage chart.

 Ailaros wrote:
And come on, it makes sense that jink would become the vehiclular equivalent of going to ground. Just like how flat-out was switched to work like infantry run rules.

And tau are going to be hurt by this? Really? How many tau mech lists are there? Even so, if only there were some way to increase the BS of someone who was snap-firing until it was back up to normal or even higher.

This will be something that will make tau just straight stronger, as they'll be able to milk the benefits while once again just ignoring penalties.

I'm not bitching about it, I agree with the change, I am just trying to think through the effects, and especially how they effect the army I play and play against, since well that's where my concerns would lie.

Jink saves are apparently 4+ cover now. Also snapshots are -2 BS. White scars getting a 3+ cover and 2+ when turboboosting and firing twinlinked BS2 bolters makes them WAY better now.

Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.

BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

BoomWolf wrote:Well, you can over-equip anything, preds are no different.

"Tri-las" is not a synonym of "over-equipped".

BoomWolf wrote:And preds are a rather poor unit to begin with,

What?

BoomWolf wrote:and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

We've been over this already. Tau gain all the benefits while easily avoiding the penalties thanks to markerlights.

If anything, we might see people start playing with more skimmers because there will finally be something that competes with riptide cheese.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.
BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

So can orks hit flyers? can they overwatch?

But yeah, huge buff to BS 4 armies, who no longer really need skyfire

 Exergy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.
BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

So can orks hit flyers? can they overwatch?

But yeah, huge buff to BS 4 armies, who no longer really need skyfire

Means that you no longer pay extra points when snap-firing compared to orks and their incredible snap firing prowess.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.
BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

So can orks hit flyers? can they overwatch?
But yeah, huge buff to BS 4 armies, who no longer really need skyfire

Means that you no longer pay extra points when snap-firing compared to orks and their incredible snap firing prowess.

Well I just mean, can you fire with BS 0? Because if orks cannot overwatch, cannot ever hit flyers, cannot fire while on a moving vehicle, just makes them seem dull and immobile. I liked that orks were half as effective shooting on the move as they were while stationary. Gave them an air of over excitement, that the only reason their BS was so low was because they were always moving too much to take careful aim. So I hope that an entire army isnt prohibited from the new mechanics of the game(snap shots)

That said BS 4 troops are more expensive than BS3 troops and it rarely comes out. Them being equal in 6th edition snap shotting was kind of unfair, but them now being twice as effective is a swing the other way.

I'm sure it'll be to a minimum of 1.

I think it would be pretty easy to assume that BS can't go below 1 when snapshotting.

Yea just about everything cant be reduced to 0 except strength or toughness iirc. Yes there are BS0 models, but thats part of the model's statlines so thats different. If it becomes orks cannot fire snaps, it would be the most unfluffy thing every since they are MORE likely to hit you as you charge them than anyone else - the trigger is already down before you even came around the corner, and it never releases while hes smacking you upside the head with the butt of the gun! lol

Yep, this bs changes will pretty strongly nerf flyers probably like should. Though, will make stuff like ork flyers a 1-use unit. But still not enough to bring fmc in line. Iirc they're gona get only 1 grounding at the end of the phase IF they got wounded.

Oh and assasin with bs8 will shoot down any bird from the sky. Gk now have 0 problems vs flyers, eh =)

 Ailaros wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

We've been over this already. Tau gain all the benefits while easily avoiding the penalties thanks to markerlights.

If anything, we might see people start playing with more skimmers because there will finally be something that competes with riptide cheese.

How is "always on" defense to a "only if you lower next turn's shooting" is a buff?

And how do people who dont play tau just manage to think markerlights are free or something? its a to-hit buffer based on hitting from the firstplace that is placed on some of the most fragile units in the game. seriusly its like people assume I got 16 assured markerlight hits every turn to distribute at will "you can boost your BS of everything to 5, AND ignore snap fire as you boost that too, and ALL your guns ignore cover...and...and...and..."...yea, if I had equal points spent into markers as actually into the shooting units. geez, markerlights are a sweet mechanic, but nothing the divination psykers everyone else has don't get done. there is a reason taudar armies use divination rather then markerlights.

The OP is using the word "destroyed" in a very inappropriate way, I think.

It's making me wonder if using a triarch stalker just to take advantage of twin-linked snapfiring is worth it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

We've been over this already. Tau gain all the benefits while easily avoiding the penalties thanks to markerlights.

If anything, we might see people start playing with more skimmers because there will finally be something that competes with riptide cheese.

How is "always on" defense to a "only if you lower next turn's shooting" is a buff?

And how do people who dont play tau just manage to think markerlights are free or something? its a to-hit buffer based on hitting from the firstplace that is placed on some of the most fragile units in the game. seriusly its like people assume I got 16 assured markerlight hits every turn to distribute at will "you can boost your BS of everything to 5, AND ignore snap fire as you boost that too, and ALL your guns ignore cover...and...and...and..."...yea, if I had equal points spent into markers as actually into the shooting units. geez, markerlights are a sweet mechanic, but nothing the divination psykers everyone else has don't get done. there is a reason taudar armies use divination rather then markerlights.

Jink is getting a +1 bonus.

So a DPod Hammerhead can claim a 3+ jink save. Which means that a Trilas predator is just about unable to hurt it.

A Dpod hammerhead already COULD get 3+ save in ruins, and had a 4+ save outside of it without harming its shooting (and markerlights are NOT free, every one spend to undo snap shots is one not spent to actually improve shooting)
And hammerheads were still largely never taken in serious play except a random longstrike tank here and there.

I expect the few hammerheads still played seriously to be dropped. I'd still run mine, as that's what I have. but I'll probably bare-bone them now.

 BoomWolf wrote:
A Dpod hammerhead already COULD get 3+ save in ruins, and had a 4+ save outside of it without harming its shooting (and markerlights are NOT free, every one spend to undo snap shots is one not spent to actually improve shooting)
And hammerheads were still largely never taken in serious play except a random longstrike tank here and there.

I expect the few hammerheads still played seriously to be dropped. I'd still run mine, as that's what I have. but I'll probably bare-bone them now.

And now you get a 3+ save in the open.

And call me entirely unsympathetic to a Tau player's woes.

Oh boohoo, my Tank which is still better than just about anything anyone besides the Eldar and Guard get has to snapshot to get a 3+ save in the open while the new damage charts means that my tanks can never be one shotted by anything with less than AP2.

Please, spare me your whinging.

A wave serpent can now flat out into your deployment zone with a 3+ cover, serp shield, and only a 7+ explodes it on a pen.

Tau will be ok with ignore cover+ tank hunter, but otherwise it's going to take 9 glance/pens to wreck it.

I see some potential for aggressive units like wraithguard/seer council in a serpent. DE IC can also jump in and ride along.

 Kain wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
A Dpod hammerhead already COULD get 3+ save in ruins, and had a 4+ save outside of it without harming its shooting (and markerlights are NOT free, every one spend to undo snap shots is one not spent to actually improve shooting)
And hammerheads were still largely never taken in serious play except a random longstrike tank here and there.

I expect the few hammerheads still played seriously to be dropped. I'd still run mine, as that's what I have. but I'll probably bare-bone them now.

And now you get a 3+ save in the open.

And call me entirely unsympathetic to a Tau player's woes.

Oh boohoo, my Tank which is still better than just about anything anyone besides the Eldar and Guard get has to snapshot to get a 3+ save in the open while the new damage charts means that my tanks can never be one shotted by anything with less than AP2.

Please, spare me your whinging.

3+ in the open while harming shooting is far worse then a blanket 4+

The new damage table applies to all tanks yaknow, not just tau's. even the poor predator enjoys it.

Nor did I whine, I made a clean claim that the the SKIMMER part of tau appear to get worse, making the annoying gunline all the more appealing instead of the far more fun, fluid and fair mechanised armies (where you run devilfishes, hammerheads, phiranas and stuff), an style who is already underplayed as it features less pure efficiency then the dominant gunline and riptide spam, who remain just as strong-effectively nerfing the wrong side of tau. (and I will make no attempts to defend the HYMP broadside or riptides, they ARE too good. but they are also unchanged-this is a talk about JINX)

Nor are tau tanks all that impressive even compared to others. who HAS anything like a main battle tanks? marines, eldar, necron, IG and tau? the predators are the only one that the hammerheads have an edge above, a tank who is NEVER seen in any list remotely competitive? but then again, SM also have the BIGGER tank in form of land raiders. yaknow, the ones you are hopeless to try and glance down, and the harder-to-get "explode" result is the only real hope. so its not like SM lack in the tank zone either.

However, your general hatered of anything and anyone related to tau does NOT speak in your favor. random hatred is not healthy to you or the game.

Land raiders are not worth mentioning in the same breath as any main battle tank. They're a transport. Their firepower is beyond pitiful.

Now, yes, this is undoubtedly a skimmer nerf. My opinion, at least, is that it is generally deserved. You now have to make the tactical decision to dodge or shoot, and tau at the very least have the choice to do both in marker lights - a choice which other armies sans eldar lack.

Eldar just has to be less brazen than before and will operate exactly the same.

 ductvader wrote:
Eldar just has to be less brazen than before and will operate exactly the same.

Not sure, Serpents will still be able to Snap Shot at 5+ - problem is until we see what they have done we don't know if they have actually tried to fix the problems (the spamed cheese units like Serpent) or just blanket bombed areas................. Other (including Eldar) units needed help and unless CC is better or assaulting out of vehicles.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Eldar just has to be less brazen than before and will operate exactly the same.

Not sure, Serpents will still be able to Snap Shot at 5+ - problem is until we see what they have done we don't know if they have actually tried to fix the problems (the spamed cheese units like Serpent) or just blanket bombed areas................. Other (including Eldar) units needed help and unless CC is better or assaulting out of vehicles.

Eldar is fast enough to find a 5+ cover save and shoot at normal BS...then HF put it back at 4+...For serpents this just means going into the open is more of a gamble cost/reward decision.

Serpents are also getting 2.2 S6 hits and 1.9 S7 Ignores cover hits on average...as opposed to the full bs getting 3.5 S6 hits and 3.1 S7 hits...so about 2 hits less on average when jinking.

If I math-ed right...ha

darkcloak wrote:
Hmmm, well still just a rumour but I think that's kind of silly.

Wave Serpent spam breaks games so instead of nerfing the serpent shield we'll mess with jink saves? Give an inch, take a mile much anyone?

Seems almost like true blue, dyed in the wool democracy to me!

The ironic part is that the best armies in 40k ignored the jink save anyway so Im not bothered by this change at all. All it really did was screw bikes.

If anything this just encourages the mega effective version of serpent spam.

Ignores cover decreasing to -2cover save is my favorite part of what I've heard about 7th.

Bugs are about to get awesome.

I really honestly don't care that much about my Wave Serpents. Yeah they're great and I love them. I'll still be able to use them, and they'll still be good.

What I'm really irritated about is my Night Spinner and Fire Prism. If they jink they can't fire AT ALL. The Fire Prism can snap-shot it's focused beam, which I guess is a small consolation prize. At least the Wave Serpent can still fire Snap Shots. It's a nerf, surely, but one that can be worked with.

My Night Spinner, by comparison, has no defense at all unless I decide not to shoot next turn. If I jink, it stands around doing nothing. Wonderful.

Murrdox wrote:
My Night Spinner, by comparison, has no defense at all unless I decide not to shoot next turn. If I jink, it stands around doing nothing. Wonderful.

Because it's impossible to get a cover save without jinking?

rigeld2 wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
My Night Spinner, by comparison, has no defense at all unless I decide not to shoot next turn. If I jink, it stands around doing nothing. Wonderful.

Because it's impossible to get a cover save without jinking?

It also has barrage for hiding purposes.

Fire Prism is less good...but it was always less good.

Only 2 less hits sounds powerful, but only 4 hits from a 145pt platform, sounds weak.

A 33% reduction in firepower for a save that is 33% better than now sounds a bit more fair.

Its a nerf to the serpent, but not enough of one. Provided the current rumors are accurate (I hope).

The rest of Mechdar is certainly taking a swift kick from this, but unless the Serpent gets an actual nerf, the other Eldar skimmers won't be taken that much.

(Oh, if a Serpent flat outs into your deployment zone top of turn 1, anything but a pure gun line should have no trouble hitting rear armor, melee or ranged. And on rear armor, the Serpent is just an AV10 with no shield.)

I really hope Falcons don't become less viable...

We're going to see other vehicle wargear get taken more.

My thought is that Eldar will either take both Holo and Ghost walk, or neither.

I actually really like what I've heard.

Bharring wrote:
Only 2 less hits sounds powerful, but only 4 hits from a 145pt platform, sounds weak.

This is why my Tyranid Monster Mash has never been that afraid of Eldar. Not enough firepower to chew through 60+ gants and 5+ MCs.


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Bharring wrote:
My thought is that Eldar will either take both Holo and Ghost walk, or neither.

I actually really like what I've heard.

Same here.

I am also looking into Vectored engines with the more conservative playstyle these rules would bring.

I for one am happy about the jink nerf:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/595300.page

 Sir Arun wrote:
I for one am happy about the jink nerf:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/595300.page

Did you just?

Funny thing I've just noticed.

The most undercosted skimmer around, the necron annibarge? just got BETTER if both this and the "snaps at -1" are true.

Greats.
(it will be 32/36 on average under new snaps with the TL tesla cannon thing...so he gives no feths on jinxing every damn turn as it only hits 36/36 when NOT snapping, so really the loss of aim is negligible-while the cover save improves.)

 Sir Arun wrote:
I for one am happy about the jink nerf:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/595300.page

I really think you should start a blog if you're going to be making a thread for every big thought that creeps into your head.

Damn!!! I was just going to go laugh on the other thread about considering a Piranha a transport!!!

Necrons are going to be in good shape.

N Scythes and A Barges only go down from 6 to 5 hits per shot with TL Tesla to gain a 4+ jink. The gain and loss are both marginal for the A barge, but the gain is huge for a N scythe for a very marginal loss.

The jink is still 6+ when hit by ignore cover.

Tau MP can not explode a scythe. A Barges can't be penned by S7 as long as QS is up and running.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Necrons are going to be in good shape.

N Scythes and A Barges only go down from 6 to 5 hits per shot with TL Tesla to gain a 4+ jink. The gain and loss are both marginal for the A barge, but the gain is huge for a N scythe for a very marginal loss.

The jink is still 6+ when hit by ignore cover.

Tau MP can not explode a scythe. A Barges can't be penned by S7 as long as QS is up and running.

This is actually good news for Necrons.

Scythes, Annihilation Barges, and Wraiths (consolidating after cc?) got a boost.

Still don't know where the "ignore cover is only -2" is coming from, and I REALLY hope that's total nonsense left over from back half a year ago when all sort of random stuff came up.

If ignore cover does not ignore cover, WHAT will be the counter to the 2+ cover? you got AP to beat armor, but cover will be undefeatable?

Maybe simply templates will have -2 cover rather then natural "no cover", but things that are MEANT to ignore cover? not seeing it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Still don't know where the "ignore cover is only -2" is coming from, and I REALLY hope that's total nonsense left over from back half a year ago when all sort of random stuff came up.

If ignore cover does not ignore cover, WHAT will be the counter to the 2+ cover? you got AP to beat armor, but cover will be undefeatable?

Maybe simply templates will have -2 cover rather then natural "no cover", but things that are MEANT to ignore cover? not seeing it.

I hope not.... on the ignoring cover being a -2 to cover, that would mean that the boost we got to markerlights removing all cover with 2 hits rather than -1 cover per markerlight became a nerf and not a boost....

Well... I guess I'll be taking flicker fields on everything now.

It'll be interesting to see if Skilled Rider lets you shoot normally. Buffs Dark Angels, nerfs White Scars. Which is alright, because right now Ravenwing cost more and get less out of the deal, over all. No Gravguns, No T-Fires to add in, more expensive...

Get Scout baseline, but Khan gives that to the WS for cheaper than Sammael. Then you can add in Chapter Master smash face for the lulz.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Necrons are going to be in good shape.

N Scythes and A Barges only go down from 6 to 5 hits per shot with TL Tesla to gain a 4+ jink. The gain and loss are both marginal for the A barge, but the gain is huge for a N scythe for a very marginal loss.

The jink is still 6+ when hit by ignore cover.

Tau MP can not explode a scythe. A Barges can't be penned by S7 as long as QS is up and running.

This is actually good news for Necrons.

Scythes, Annihilation Barges, and Wraiths (consolidating after cc?) got a boost.

Ghost Arks got a big boost. Overall increase in vehicle resiliency (7 needed to explode) and a 3++ flat out. You're not shooting with it anyway.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Necrons are going to be in good shape.

N Scythes and A Barges only go down from 6 to 5 hits per shot with TL Tesla to gain a 4+ jink. The gain and loss are both marginal for the A barge, but the gain is huge for a N scythe for a very marginal loss.

The jink is still 6+ when hit by ignore cover.

Tau MP can not explode a scythe. A Barges can't be penned by S7 as long as QS is up and running.

This is actually good news for Necrons.

Scythes, Annihilation Barges, and Wraiths (consolidating after cc?) got a boost.

Ghost Arks got a big boost. Overall increase in vehicle resiliency (7 needed to explode) and a 3++ flat out. You're not shooting with it anyway.

Necrons can ally with necrons so you can now stick a combo of 3 and 2 lords/overlords inside for majority t5 on the 5 warriors. It's a scoring royal court deathstar with 5 ablative t5 warrior wounds. That's a nasty unit to stick in an open topped transport with av13 and a 3+ jink.



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Ow crap lords in warriors makes them troops. They can go 2nd, die, pop back up with el, and non troops can't contest an objective after he makes an el roll.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Still don't know where the "ignore cover is only -2" is coming from, and I REALLY hope that's total nonsense left over from back half a year ago when all sort of random stuff came up.

If ignore cover does not ignore cover, WHAT will be the counter to the 2+ cover? you got AP to beat armor, but cover will be undefeatable?

Maybe simply templates will have -2 cover rather then natural "no cover", but things that are MEANT to ignore cover? not seeing it.

I could see it splitting down the line.

Ignores Cover, like from my Markerlight rule or a unit being aided by a buffmander, are -2 cover save rather than straight up no cover since they are more likely to just have better aim than anything else to explain where the hell its coming from.

Blasts/Templates, on the other hand, will straight up ignore cover if they have the rule to do it to begin with (i.e. most barrage weapons, all flamers, etc) or are given the rule from a psyker, an IC attachment, or in my case markerlights (so my riptides/ionheads can still full fledge ignore cover, rest will be -2 cover).

That makes a bit of sense, to me anyway. Flamers were originally made to flush out bunkers...technically anything short of power armor shouldnt give an armor save let alone cover. Blast markers work along the lines of THEY BLEW YOUR COVER UP lol.

However i doubt the -2 cover rumor is a thing, modifiers to any save died eons ago and now its you get it or you dont. Since jinking is more about evasive maneuvers rather than hiding behind something, that might be where the -2 cover save rumor is popping from since it could be a jink-specific thing only.

Hiding in a fox hole or trench works real well when being shelled (blasts) but doesn't work against flame throwers. That's one of the few realistic rules the game has.

Yes and no.

Harder to hit because the only way to hurt you is to land in the trench, but even if it was a ways away from you but still got into the trench the shockwave from the blast usually hits you anyway.

Also, artillery will obliterate "ruins" if it doesnt somehow find a crack to fly through.

Actually, the way trenches are built nowdays, if a rocket does not land directly on your curve, you will hardly feel a thing, no heat, no shrapnel, no shockwave.

Thats what i meant, my mind is a bit loopy from the flu so i probably couldnt say it right, as the multiple edits on such a tiny post indicate.

But, if that rocket does land in the trench its going to be one bad bad day for you even if it wasnt near you because the trench "funnels" the shockwave. Hard bends in the trench reduces it dramatically though, so thats another factor.

Of course if the shell bursts directly above the trench and sprays shrapnel downwards, you are also in trouble.


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Just had a thought. Has anything said that Jink saves still require movement? This could mean that Skimmers and Bikes can finally Jink against that alpha strike before they have a movement phase.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats what i meant, my mind is a bit loopy from the flu so i probably couldnt say it right, as the multiple edits on such a tiny post indicate.

But, if that rocket does land in the trench its going to be one bad bad day for you even if it wasnt near you because the trench "funnels" the shockwave. Hard bends in the trench reduces it dramatically though, so thats another factor.

Shockwaves are by far the least of your worries with 99% of explosive munitions and soft tissue (that's you) is rather good at absorbing them anyway (so long as you're not right besides them when they go off at least). If someone drops a multi-ton bomb in your trench you'd be screwed, but that kind of goes without saying...

Having munitions go off just past the curve from you protects you from shrapnel, which is what's actually supposed to kill you.


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 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, you can over-equip anything, preds are no different.

And preds are a rather poor unit to begin with, and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

Our tanks used to be cool and intresting. costed an arm and a leg, but were COOL.
After the jinks change? I'd probably settle for bare bones hammers, if any. there is just no reason to invest in it any more as it does nothing impressive-its no longer good at actually tanking shots, and the mandatory Dpod went into doing practically nothing of value.

Hammerheads have a f**k off long range. Want to enjoy both good cover and full BS? Park them in/behind cover and fire gleefully from half a board away or more.

Want to get a better vantage point? Used to be a boring no-brainer, now you actually need to coordinate your forces a bit to pull it off by either interposing units to give it cover or markerlighting its intended target to offset the snapfire BS penalty (at which point you have a 3+ cover save and regular shooting for the price of two markerlight counters).

Tau are the LAST codex that should be bothered by the new Jinx mechanic...

Actually the sad part for me is that I will be unable to drive them up for ramming and tank shocking any more, staying behind in cover is boring.

As for the rest of your rant, markers aren't free, and using blockers will be silly as the tanks used to be my blockers.

Sure, tau can manage just fine, by keeping to the boring old gunline works. The jinx change, if real, only hurts tau who wants to play active and aggressive-yakonw, FUN


(and last to complain is necrons, they don't care to snap shoot anyway so it's pure buff for them.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually the sad part for me is that I will be unable to drive them up for ramming and tank shocking any more, staying behind in cover is boring.

As for the rest of your rant, markers aren't free, and using blockers will be silly as the tanks used to be my blockers.

Sure, tau can manage just fine, by keeping to the boring old gunline works. The jinx change, if real, only hurts tau who wants to play active and aggressive-yakonw, FUN

When was the last time you tank shocked anyone that didn't literally walk up to your tanks in your own deployment zone?

Also, moving from cover to cover is a thing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
(and last to complain is necrons, they don't care to snap shoot anyway so it's pure buff for them.)

Really? Tell that to my Ghost Ark that's now even easier to blow up unless it sacrifices its firepower (which can be rather substantial with a blob of warriors and a cryptek or two or a royal court inside).

 Galorian wrote:


Really? Tell that to my Ghost Ark that's now even easier to blow up unless it sacrifices its firepower (which can be rather substantial with a blob of warriors and a cryptek or two or a royal court inside).

Uhm, if you hae to decide between a 3++ and firing 5 bolters, it really isn't a tough choice to make. I greatly appreciate it now getting a 3++ for free.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

But, if that rocket does land in the trench its going to be one bad bad day for you even if it wasnt near you because the trench "funnels" the shockwave. Hard bends in the trench reduces it dramatically though, so thats another factor.

Blast weapons dont kill people with shockwaves, they do so with shrapnel. For maximum damage the explosives usually detonate 5-20ft above the ground. Being in a whole in the ground dramatically reduces your chances of getting hit by shrapnel.

 Galorian wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually the sad part for me is that I will be unable to drive them up for ramming and tank shocking any more, staying behind in cover is boring.

As for the rest of your rant, markers aren't free, and using blockers will be silly as the tanks used to be my blockers.

Sure, tau can manage just fine, by keeping to the boring old gunline works. The jinx change, if real, only hurts tau who wants to play active and aggressive-yakonw, FUN

When was the last time you tank shocked anyone that didn't literally walk up to your tanks in your own deployment zone?

Also, moving from cover to cover is a thing.

When the enemy wasn't a LD 10 necron, that's when. its wasted effort on you.
And your troops are never on the fething ground either! I can't tank shock a freaking night scythe! METAL BAWKSES! DA KOWARDZ! THE FEWLZ!!

 Galorian wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
(and last to complain is necrons, they don't care to snap shoot anyway so it's pure buff for them.)

Really? Tell that to my Ghost Ark that's now even easier to blow up unless it sacrifices its firepower (which can be rather substantial with a blob of warriors and a cryptek or two or a royal court inside).

Just further proving my point that the cool stuff are the ones taking the hit, while the annoying stuff only gets better x_x (annibarge=annoying and undercosted as hell, ghost ark? its fair, and promotes agressive plays.)

Wait, is this really a Tau player claiming Necrons to be overpowered?

Like, come on man. Really.

I didnt claim the necron to be overpowered, I claimed that the annibarge in spesific is undercosted, and that tank shocking LD10 guys is not a great strategy. (and guys who are not on the fields are impossible to shock anyway)

Sigvatr wrote:

 Galorian wrote:


Really? Tell that to my Ghost Ark that's now even easier to blow up unless it sacrifices its firepower (which can be rather substantial with a blob of warriors and a cryptek or two or a royal court inside).

Uhm, if you hae to decide between a 3++ and firing 5 bolters, it really isn't a tough choice to make. I greatly appreciate it now getting a 3++ for free.

5 Bolters on the outside, sure, but the really issue are the 10 bolters or 8 bolters + 1-2 36" S8 AP2 shots or 5 36" S8 AP2 shots sitting inside of it.

I like to use my Ghost Ark as a gunboat, not a ferry.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Wait, is this really a Tau player claiming Necrons to be overpowered?

Like, come on man. Really.

Welcome to my life...

Well we had Eldar players bemoaning their poor poor wave serpents so it can only get more absurd

I find that against flyer heavy armies (Nids) that they are not very effective. I also feel they are priced just right compared to other transports. I only have 3 max in my armies, and usually only in a competitive environment. If your seeing more than that in a non-competitive play, I can at least understand how you'd feel they are undercosted and OP, not that I really agree with you.

If they snap fire after Jinx I will most likely never drop the shield again.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
I find that against flyer heavy armies (Nids) that they are not very effective. I also feel they are priced just right compared to other transports. I only have 3 max in my armies, and usually only in a competitive environment. If your seeing more than that in a non-competitive play, I can at least understand how you'd feel they are undercosted and OP, not that I really agree with you.

If they snap fire after Jinx I will most likely never drop the shield again.

To be fair - if they are fair and balanced why do you feel the need to restrict them to a max of 3 and only in competative games?

When you look at the sheer durability, awesome firepower, flexibility and compare them to all other DT's they do seem to be very undercosted and its rare to see someone who's not an hardcore Eldar player diagree.

If use of the shield supergun becomes rare - well then thats at least a little more in line with the "weapon of last resort" its uspposed to be. Although now they also become scoring troop units as well - then I guess the spam will continue.

I don't play my Eldar much but really try not to field Wave Seperents - just feels cheesy. Although if the 7th ed rumours are true- certainly looking to try out Banshees in a Raider - get those girls into action