Jink Saves destroyed

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**Jimsolo**

Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

**Swastakowey**

Jimsolo wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

**Ailaros**

Oh, I just got it.

This is why the hydra lost its ability to ignore jink saves, even though that was the biggest reason to take it.

Not because the hydra needed a nerf, but because they're changing the nature of jink.

Duh.

**Sihdhartha**

Swastakowey wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

It won't hurt Eldar that bad, they are still going to snap shoot at BS2, and it doesn't stop how stupidly survivable they are, if I were an Eldar player I would totally take the extra jink save to loose a little accuracy.

**Swastakowey**

Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

**Jimsolo**

Sihdhartha wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

It won't hurt Eldar that bad, they are still going to snap shoot at BS2, and it doesn't stop how stupidly survivable they are, if I were an Eldar player I would totally take the extra jink save to loose a little accuracy.

No, Eldar will probably be fine. Dark Eldar are going to be F'ed in the A. Especially if, as I suspect, passengers on said vehicles will also have to abide by the Snap Shot restriction.

**obsidiankatana**

Swastakowey wrote:
Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

And still twin linked if the scatter laser doesn't miss.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrong quote! Referencing post above the quote.

**Swastakowey**

obsidiankatana wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

And still twin linked if the scatter laser doesn't miss.

Yea after my initial excitement I started to realize eldar have a bit more twin linking than most armies. So it kind of doesnt matter as much any more haha

**koooaei**

Ailaros wrote:
Oh, I just got it.

This is why the hydra lost its ability to ignore jink saves, even though that was the biggest reason to take it.

Not because the hydra needed a nerf, but because they're changing the nature of jink.

Duh.

Conspiracy!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bs -2 is a severe loss to bs 3 models though compared to both bs2 or 4+

I'm gona be actually happy if jink changes like this. It's more logical. Cause as it was, a skimmer or bike moving 0.1 inches is SOOOO fast, it's harder to hit than a truckk that moved 24-25 inches. That sounds as stupid as an enormous monstrous creature getting cover for a toe in a bush. Oh wait...

**Sihdhartha**

Jimsolo wrote:
Sihdhartha wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.

Coming from a player who did a sadistic dance of glee when Tyranid players bemoaned their new codex, I understand the desire to punish an army you've lost to repeatedly. But I don't think that snap shots after jinking is fair or balancing. It's just punitive. If jink saves get better, then maybe it'll be a different story.

I dont lose repeatedly, I just hated the rule. Although I did have one loosing streak against eldar. But the rule always baffled me. Eldar have a lot of rules that baffle me. I personally think its fair, if you want to be harder to hit, then you must give up hitting hard. If you dont jink you still have superior maneuverability.

Also jink is a standard 4+ now I think? So most eldar will have a 3+ save which is pretty good, but then they must snap shot.

It won't hurt Eldar that bad, they are still going to snap shoot at BS2, and it doesn't stop how stupidly survivable they are, if I were an Eldar player I would totally take the extra jink save to loose a little accuracy.

No, Eldar will probably be fine. Dark Eldar are going to be F'ed in the A. Especially if, as I suspect, passengers on said vehicles will also have to abide by the Snap Shot restriction.

Aren't passengers already snap shooting if they move faster than 6"? Maybe I am used to the DE lists I am used to play in my very limited (5-player) meta, he usually has the whatever racks that allow twin linked for poison, if I can't kill the vehicle that can totally mess up my Tau.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
Very true, but its better than the old system thats for sure. BS4 down to BS2.

It's better, but it's not a HUGE nerf, not as much as the 6th ED FnP hit DE

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BoomWolf wrote:
Sihdhartha wrote:
This is seriously going to hurt my use of Piranha's and maybe even Tetra's. I don't see it altering my use of Skyray's, I generally only bring 1 for AA work, and it usually hangs out in some ruins with a D-pod and sensor spines.

It's going to make me seriously rethink using Hammerheads, but it may make me bring in Devilfish again, I think they are overpriced for what they bring, but jinking with a D-pod may make them survivable enough to get a squad up to grab objectives.

GOD I DIDNT EVEN THINK ABOUT MY POOR TETRAS

At least Tetra's ML's are twin-linked, it's a nerf yes, but not a massive one, I still foresee running a squad of four to compliment my Marker'O and his drone, I mean what's my other recourse? Run Pathfinders for ML? I hate Pathfinders, they are not mobile, die too easily and need too many models to get an effective # of ML on target.

**BoomWolf**

obsidiankatana wrote:
I use Predators. AV13 with no jink.

Sup.

At 66% the price and more guns.

**Jimsolo**

Sihdhartha wrote:

Aren't passengers already snap shooting if they move faster than 6"? Maybe I am used to the DE lists I am used to play in my very limited (5-player) meta, he usually has the whatever racks that allow twin linked for poison, if I can't kill the vehicle that can totally mess up my Tau.

Yes, but the supposed rumor is that Jinking at all will force you down to Snap Shots.

**Mr Morden**

Let us all join together and weep for the poor hard done by Wave Serpent spammers - they might not be quite as OP (*) in the new edition - life is so cruel to them, surely someone can help them survive..

(*) although it does not seem to be that way

**Sihdhartha**

Jimsolo wrote:
Sihdhartha wrote:

Aren't passengers already snap shooting if they move faster than 6"? Maybe I am used to the DE lists I am used to play in my very limited (5-player) meta, he usually has the whatever racks that allow twin linked for poison, if I can't kill the vehicle that can totally mess up my Tau.

Yes, but the supposed rumor is that Jinking at all will force you down to Snap Shots.

I haven't seen much of sitting there moving 1" to get a jink from DE, mainly from my Tau Hammerheads LOL, on a serious note this will effect how (or if) I deploy Hammerheads, Piranha's or Tetra's but don't see it really making a huge impact on Eldar Or DE.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Let us all join together and weep for the poor hard done by Wave Serpent spammers - they might not be quite as OP (*) in the new edition - life is so cruel to them, surely someone can help them survive..

(*) although it does not seem to be that way

They are still very (if not more) survivable, just won't be quite as much of a main battle tank.... it may be a nerf, but it's not that big of one on a unit that probably needed to be hit with a slightly bigger bat

**Suite**

Powerguy wrote:
Suite wrote:
Would you seriously hide two of your most versatile and mobile combat squads of - say 2* 6 jetbikes with two cannons - until the end of the battle? The jink changes 1. are a massive nerf for all bikers and it hits DE the most and 2. fuel the playstyle you mentioned way further.

Not a single thing in this statement makes sense. People don't use 6 man Jetbike units with Cannons (not that they are terrible units by any means), you run 3 man units, hide them in reserve and zoom to objectives late. For them the 4+ cover is a buff since they don't care about shooting.

For Marine Bike lists I don't think its a huge issue, the double Chapter Masters tanking at the front don't need cover and T5 and 3+ saves keep you pretty safe from small arms. The main reason the top bike lists are so strong (and by that I mean White Scars) is because they can be played very aggressively, pushing straight into assault turn 2ish (where snapping doesn't matter) and then completely control the game because they have Hit and Run (which if you had to pick a single special rule is definitely their biggest advantage).

Dark Eldar get hit the least by this by far. Their skimmers can all get 5+ invulnerables anyway (which were already a good idea with the amount of Ignores Cover around) and its a buff for their Jetbikes because they don't shoot people anyway, you can now zoom around and do slash attacks and you might actually live afterwards.

I agree that this is a nerf to Serpents, but its not the nerf they needed. While it does make them easier to kill most of the time it does mean that if they are in survival mode they are basically untouchable - a 3+ cover save and ignoring pens on a 2+, so if people adapt and use them differently (i.e more as transports rather than as gunboats) they will still do fine. Serpents are interesting because imo they aren't as overpowered as people make them out. The Shield weapon is the only thing that makes them broken, for example if you dropped the Shield down to range 6" then to me they would be slightly overpriced - they would have battle tank price tags but without the firepower to back it up.

Okay. First, you're being rude. Now lets go over the comments of yours.

1. People do use Jetbike squads of 6, even 9 is possible. Why? Because there are people out in the world who do not rely on Serpent spam and thus need strong units. What YOU or YOUR friends do doesn't give you the right to say, nobody would field them otherwise (it is in fact very common).

2. The problem is not the small arms fire for bikes but rather armor/cover-ignoring weaponry as the weapons in the game are evolving. If you are fielding White Scars, you can compensate for it by target overloading which is how "themed" armies always work and not just since shortly, moreover the close combat character of the Scars means you can almost always turboboost as you wish when you don't have -say - 24 inch weaponry on which you rely.

3. DE do get hit the most because their Jetbikes don't get any invulnerable save you're speaking of AND only have a 5+ armor save which means they're basically dead after performing one action if you choose not to zip around your own deployment zone. What are these slash attacks you are referring? So DE Jetbikes are now virtually forced to jink every turn and therefore abandoning a big part of their shooting power which still exists, regardless of what you say. No options to have is almost always worse than the other way ronud. About their skimmers, only the Venom has flickerfields stock, the other vehicles have to purchase it. A mandatory upgrade now which is bad.

4. Whom are your comments on Serpents addressed to? I didn't mention it in my post you quoted. But funnily you say that the Serpent is not overpowered (says Powerguy) but just broken due to their shield. You should have said "the shield mechanic is broken", not the Serpent itself.

**wtnind**

The way I see it, cover saves should always be a trade off:
You get worse firing position, theres a chance you will immobilise yourself driving through area terrain, your opponent can reposition himself to deny you the cover

Jink:
You always get it, theres nothing your opponent can do to deprive you of it (excluding ignores cover).

I like the Jink mechanic on my vendettas, it's a choice, hmn 4 hits at S7... thats average 2 glances, maybe 1 pen... guess I'll risk it since I want to hover and jump my guys out this turn. Any time theres:
a) something your opponent can do to eliminate your bonus or,
b) something you have to make a descision about

I'm happy.

**koooaei**

Suite wrote:

People do use Jetbike squads of 6, even 9 is possible. Why? Because there are people out in the world who do not rely on Serpent spam and thus need strong units. What YOU or YOUR friends do doesn't give you the right to say, nobody would field them otherwise (it is in fact very common).

So what. People used to run greentides, kan walls and truckrushes. Their entire lists got way worse than that. When you can still find something good in the changes - better jink if you reduce shooting effectiveness - those things i've listed gained nothing good. They just got plain worse. You've gotten a bit less cheezy and you start crying allready.

**Suite**

Where am I crying? Are you butthurt by some evil Eldar tabling you lately? What is your problem? Why are you quoting a comment of mine where I specifically answered somebody instead of making an isolated statement? What the heck do greentides have to do with jink?

**koooaei**

you're overreacting

I'm just telling that it's perfectly normal that some things get worse with time. Find other units for this role or deal with what you have. New jink is not a plain nerf after all - it has it's obvious bright sides also. Not just a: "I'm alwayz in cover" thing.

**phantommaster**

I fail to see the problem here.

Should this be true you are still going to have the option to jink, how hard will that really curb eldar and dark eldar skimmer spammers?

Think back to 5th Ed. when they didn't get it at all...

Dark eldar still have invulnerables on vehicles for a small fee, eldar still have all their twin linked'ness and shielding.

If GW is trying to sort all this serpent spam with a rulebook fix then that's always going to be the wrong way to go about it, it's swing and roundabouts since it will affect all armies.

**Mr Morden**

I am not sure f they are trying to sort out the inherient problems with Wave Serpents being OP - if so - its a asilly way to do it. It should be done with FAQs / Codex update but GW don't seem to do that these days.

**Jefffar**

To be honest, if they just forced you to move cruising speed as a vehicle or turbo-boost as a bike to get your Jink they'd have done what needed to be done to cut it back.

**Exergy**

phantommaster wrote:

Dark eldar still have invulnerables on vehicles for a small fee, eldar still have all their twin linked'ness and shielding.

It's 10 points, doesnt sound like much, but on 60 point vehicles that you are likely taking 6-7 of, it means 1 less vehicle.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

DE do get hit the most because their Jetbikes don't get any invulnerable save you're speaking of AND only have a 5+ armor save which means they're basically dead after performing one action if you choose not to zip around your own deployment zone. What are these slash attacks you are referring? So DE Jetbikes are now virtually forced to jink every turn and therefore abandoning a big part of their shooting power which still exists, regardless of what you say. No options to have is almost always worse than the other way ronud.

DE jetbikes can slash attack by moving flat out over a unit and doing damage to it. Their shooting power is pretty weak actually. It's usually slash slash slash, shoot + assault when the game is nearly over if they are somehow alive. Currently they have 5+ jink, 4+ skilled rider, 3+ moving flat out. If you can jink when you move flat out, and still use their slash attack they are likely fine, but depending on the eact wording it could:
a. make them slightly better
b. make them the exact same as they are now
c. totally ruin them to the point that no one ever takes them

DE players know to assume option c. every time GW changes the rules until you actually read the rulebook.

**Vector Strike**

Sihdhartha wrote:
At least Tetra's ML's are twin-linked, it's a nerf yes, but not a massive one, I still foresee running a squad of four to compliment my Marker'O and his drone, I mean what's my other recourse? Run Pathfinders for ML? I hate Pathfinders, they are not mobile, die too easily and need too many models to get an effective # of ML on target.

Now Sensor Spines became almost mandatory to Tau vehicles. Park your Tetras in cover and enjoy the russian rave

**Co'tor Shas**

Sensor spines are great anyway. A hammerhead with d-pod in cover is really hard to kill.

**Sihdhartha**

Yea, it does look like sensor spines are indeed going to be mandatory.....

I don't think this change is going to hurt DE jetbikes at all, if anything it just boosted them 1 cover and if the rumor that says that ignores cover is only a -2 to cover is true also? I forsee a lot of bikes in DE lists.

**Byte**

The change in jink with just encourage Eldar WSs to move farther each turn as they have to snap anyway moving their contents around the board much faster.

**Ailaros**

And come on, it makes sense that jink would become the vehiclular equivalent of going to ground. Just like how flat-out was switched to work like infantry run rules.

And tau are going to be hurt by this? Really? How many tau mech lists are there? Even so, if only there were some way to increase the BS of someone who was snap-firing until it was back up to normal or even higher.

This will be something that will make tau just straight stronger, as they'll be able to milk the benefits while once again just ignoring penalties.

**obsidiankatana**

BoomWolf wrote:
obsidiankatana wrote:
I use Predators. AV13 with no jink.

Sup.

At 66% the price and more guns.

Tell me more about how a naked predator stacks up to a naked Hammerhead. Oh, and the naked Hammerhead has more guns than a naked Predator.

Accurate comparison would be Tri-Las Predator (what I use) to Hammerhead with DPods, Submunitions (or Ionhead), and Sensor Spines. Ten point difference between the two, five if it's the ionhead, and I'd pick a Hammerhead every day for that difference.

**BoomWolf**

Well, you can over-equip anything, preds are no different.

And preds are a rather poor unit to begin with, and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

Our tanks used to be cool and intresting. costed an arm and a leg, but were COOL.
After the jinks change? I'd probably settle for bare bones hammers, if any. there is just no reason to invest in it any more as it does nothing impressive-its no longer good at actually tanking shots, and the mandatory Dpod went into doing practically nothing of value.